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- Tao P
- Vancouver B.c
- Canada
This conversation is closed.
If the state is so bad at raising children, how come we allow the state to educate our children?
It's obvious that our educational system is broken, but who is willing to take action to create a new system? Much of learning can be broken down into how much attention does a child get. In a classroom that's almost nil, as a teachers time is spread between 30 students. Studies also clearly show that grading children has a detrimental effect on them. So why do we continue this waste of resources that is also a waste of our children's potential.
What is an alternative to the current method of education. Is there a way to light the fire of children's curiosity rather than smothering it with facts.
Nov 2 2012: I think that ultimately, when the poor are fully under control of the ruling groups or corporations non of this will be a problem anymore. Education will be for the ruling populace and the rest will be served enough to keep them under control.
Of course this could go the other way and the ruled could use the internet to get educated and upset the plans of the ruling parties. It appears it is spreading in this direction. I'm taking courses at an online college and learning much.
We waste resources because they are unregulated. It's really that simple. When resources become rare, we regulated them and decide who gets what and how much, with the rulers getting the highest share. It has away been that way.
We must bear in mind that money takes second place to power and control. With an educated population all the rulers have to do to put them under control is to shrink the money supply, which is what we are going through now. It is a fact that it is easier to control an educated population, provided you keep the educational process in two lots. The highest quality for the rulers children and the lowest for the rest. This is how the University system works and it appears that online education is following suit.
As technology takes control of our living environment, we can expect to see the population cut up into segments of haves and have not's, educated vs non-educated. The people will follow the jobs and that is the carrot that will be used to separate everyone into controllable groups. It is happening today.
Bear in mind, just because you are highly educated does not mean you are not a slave to some rulere(s). They just keep you in a more gilded cage. Not all Geniuses are born into the families of the ruling class.
Today, the smart children are sorted out, cataloged and followed throughout their lives. Opportunity is used to draw them out from their families and put them to work.
Nov 2 2012: THat's a bit pessimistic. It's also a loose argument: 'it's a fact that controlling an educated public is easier'. According to whom? I'd wager it is far easier to control an ignorant people than an educated one. Anyways, my post is about thinking about better styles of education, not spreading worry with tangents of anxiety.
John Dunbar
Nov 2 2012: Tao, this entirely depends on what the populace has been educated about. One can educate a group and very easily use this education as a tool of enslavement. If you look at the trilateral commission formed under Ford they basically said there are two types of intellectuals one that praise the system and ones that are, lets say, more value oriented. They went on to say that the value oriented intellectuals must be shunned so as to inhibit "the crisis of democracy" while the former must be held up because of the extremely important role they play in the indoctrination of the young and maintenance of societal function.
- +2
I concur with Johns statement it is far easier to control an educated populace when the education is mean to serve the master. Sometimes education can fool you into believing things you already know to be false....
In the communist manifesto Marx claimed that state education was needed so as to protect the children from being molded into sycophants to the ruling class. I think this is true and what we now see with all the hype about the teachers unions is really just a ploy to get in there and teach the children "what they should be learning". This is not to say that government in and of itself cant become a ruling class it can and has. The point I am attempting to make is that "spreading worry" based in truism should be an obligation to anyone who cares about his fellow man.
Nov 3 2012: OK well I agree if by education you mean a system of indoctrination. The point of my starting this thread was for us to collaboratively think of better ways to educate people.
I politely disagree that we should spread worrying truisms without, at the very least, the intention of finding solutions. I feel we should go beyond that any time we utter negative ideas and facts; we need to provide answers or the space for us to collaborate to come up with answersNov 3 2012: Pessimistic?
It's the way the world has operated for thousands of years. I don't see any change taking place now. If it were not so we should see evidence of it. Right?
If I am incorrect, we would see a strong, growing middle class and shrinking on the other two ends.
Do we see this?
Nov 3 2012: 'It's the way the world has operated for thousands of years. I don't see any change taking place now. If it were not so we should see evidence of it. Right?'
I believe that also to be a pessimistic, though you surely see it as realistic. Pessimism to me is stating the problems and being unable or unwilling to work towards answers. So my saying you're being pessimistic is not saying you are wrong, but I don't think you are helping us move forward. If we hope to improve the World we need to work with eachother instead of criticizing without any constructive thought.Nov 3 2012: Humans constantly seek justification for their actions. The grading system we use in schools today inflect more on the teachers abilities to deliver knowledge to the children. Because, teachers are human beings with feelings like other human beings, they can only take so much inflection that their methods or abilities lead to failure. After all, most of them are college graduates and have a sense of self-value for their accomplishment. So how do they reflect this sense of failure? They push it off on the children. It becomes the children's lack of ability to learn, even when the teachers themselves are examples that the most average of person can obtain a college degree.
So, if it is not the abilities of the children or the teachers that prevent children from enjoying and longing for knowledge, what is it?
Could it be the method of delivery? If a ruling class cannot control a humans ability to learn they can only manipulate them through the method of delivery. By regulating the methods of delivery, they can manipulate the whole system and create a segment of the population for management and the other to be managed.
Technology does not depend on having a ruling class or a ruled class. It moves forward with knowledge. It gets incorporated into society and is used by society to regulated and expand itself. As such, it is not ruling class or ruled class dependent. But, it does impact how rulers will will rule. If by using computers a people can get ride of their managers, the need for middle class management society declines. If by using technology, the ruled can exploit the resources themselves without guidance from the ruling class, the need for a ruling class declines.
This experiment in computer guided learning is being carried on right now all over the internet. I am a participant. I recommend everyone get involved. It's bad for teachers but good for society. Technocracy is the future.Oct 29 2012: The state would not be able to do the things you should do for your kids as a parent because the state does not have that intimacy that you are expected to have with your child.
But the home is the place where a child is introduced into the society. There, a child learns the basics of human relationships by observing the parents, who are meant to be the first examples and mentors.
So, there are things that the state can not do for your child because of its nature and constitution; and there are things a child can only get from the state. This is a case of mutual responsibility. Wisdom is profitable to lead.
Comment deleted
Nov 1 2012: The Lord is our shepherd. We are led by His Spirit.
Mitch SMith
Oct 29 2012: We make the mistake that children can be educated - as if it's some kind of active thing we do to them.
- +2
This is the outlook of a sociopath. Chidren are not "educated", they get interested and learn for themselves.
A true education consists of getting out of the kid's way and supporting the kid's progress.
The alternative is so dumb-simple that we miss it in our arrogance.
Comment deleted
Nov 1 2012: Hi Don,
You will see in my other writings on this subject some of the things you have demonstrated to me. Namely, the decline of the value of our elders and the emergence of sociopathic attitudes.
The rise of dominance has invaded our world views to such an extent that we discard good fruit for an abhorence of blemish.
This abhorence pervades our attitude towards risk such that the middle-risk path of a healthy life has polarised to the acceptance of tiny risks and cataclysmic risks with nothing in between but the coins on the tables of the money changers.
Such that we dominate our children "for their own good" a good that is illusion - a good predominantly dictated by the violation that has its epicentre in the psychopath.
Had I not seen for my own eyes the fallacy of the world view I was raised in, I would be just as everyone else - polarised and ignorant.
It is plain to me as the nose on my face - children teach themselves - the true dynamic of education is to answer the natural questions of children to our best ability. To follow thir exploration, to clear the way for them and to stop demonising them with notions of original sin or burdening them with our own irational fears.
It's all upside-down - the children teach the parents, not the other way round.
Since I came to that realisation, my own child has taught me more than 1/4 of my lifetime spent in the sadistic purgatory of schools.
I understand the ignorance of the victimised mass, but I can no longer walk in their paths.
And if anyone cares to take the veil off their faces, they might find a better way.
If I can help in that process. I will.
Comment deleted
Mitch SMith
Nov 1 2012: Hi Don,
- +2
The supporting environment is essential. Particularly the loving part.
This is something only a parent can truly provide.
There are some teachers who are very supportive and loving, however, the modern school paradigm is not supportive or loving of them - and they have a difficult time.
I have framed my statements to attack the notion of education being the "filling of an empty cup" - which assumes that a child is a passive object to be "sculpted" .. well, perhaps a rock can feel no pain being turned into the statue of David with hammers and chisels, but it's violence when you do it to a kid. My loving but deluded father would say "as the twig is bent so groweth the tree" and used that as an excuse to screw-up me and my siblings .. the quote is true, but who would deliberately bend a twig? He was perverted by the old biblical disaster "spare the rod and spoil the child". As were many - many are still being poisoned by this lie.
The state just wants people in "Jarbs" - listen to Obama and Romney - Mum and Dad - all in Jarbs, peddling their lifes-time, their precious minutes at 10 cents in the dollar to strangers who care nothing for the deficit in the child's nurture.
Jarbs and Money - tokens of slavery - paid for by the poverty of our children.Nov 2 2012: Hi Don,
As I mentioned elsewhere, my arrival at my current world view was a process of observing the fallicy that underpinned what I had been taught and what my father had been taught. The violations.
I have observed elsewhere the mechanics of how violation is passed from generation to generation through assumptions that arrose in psychopathic violations. This is thousands of years old - pre-dating the old testament of the Jews, reflected in their doctrine and compounded by the Roman nationalisation of Paul's christianity that sought to correct and heal the damage.
IF Paul was teh pharisee of pharisees, Constantine was the psychopath of psychopaths.We all work within the frameworks established by our forebares - the opposite of love is not hate - it is harm, and we are all damaged. The psychopath has no love, the sociopath has love, but it is constrained by the generational injury of violation. My father was a loving man straining through the bars of his pain for that love to find voice. As are we all.
I nominate institutionalised "education" as a vector of the ancient harm. I have observed it with my own eyes, and I invite others to embark on the journey beyond the aprobation of accepted dogma and go see for themselves.
Best regards
(edit: the flute does not require learning - just playing .. it is a thing of breath)Nov 2 2012: Well .. The picture is one of sea and land.
Our parents, siblings and friends trace out the shorline and say of the sea: "here be monsters".
But when you abandon fear or get thrown into it, you find only land underfoot - where everyone insisted otherwise. This is the true "walking on water".
Perhapse there are unknown monsters lurking in the deep, but can they be worse than the ones pointing to false shorelines to keep your back permanently against the wall?
When I was 2 years old, I remember seeng that my father could become a flat thing across which were painted slogans - dead things against which no living truth could pass. This was a sad thing for a 2-year-old .. and that's why I remember it .. the sadness for my father - I could see that his love was just as harmed as mine.
He wasn't perpetuially so, and before his death, had learned to climb down from his plackard .. mostly.
(edit: there is only one book worth reading - it si the unfolding story of your own life .. something that is best read out loud ;)Nov 2 2012: I have a very good picture of the puzzle concerning abuse.
It resides fair and square in the centre of competition.
Competition is required in the face of scarcity.
Where is this scarcity?
The dynamic that leads to the abuse you are experiencing is exactly the same dynamic that results in women being paid less, and children not at all.
It is called the "tangible benefit". It occurs in cost/benefit statements that drive the whole competitive paradigm.
The value of elders undergoes a transition from tangible to intangible - they are not reliable as tangible value units because they become frail and cannot turn up to their jarb on a tangibly reliable basis according to the defined hours of work. Similarly, women get pregnant at inconvenient times and children have not got the skills or strength required for the bottom line.
in short, these social subsets have no tangible value and are treated accordingly.
These things are obvious to all entities involved in competition - corporations, governments and legislative bodies.
You are expelled to the world of the intangible.
A place where the value is litterally incalculable.
That sounds like a nice place to be.
I am please to see you are embracing it.Nov 3 2012: With the flute - Each note has a character. Each character tells a story in the company of the other characters - together they make a community we call a "tune".
A tune starts in the heart of a player. others may copy, but it is their own breath that gives it life.
Tradition is a process of giving life to something worth living.
No one is precluded from this - the tune can start with you - you only need play it.
After a while, you will know where to find the notes that others play - then you can copy them if it's worth doing.
Here is a chart of where the usual notes are:
But I have to say - there is no limit, and the finger combinations are not set in stone - I use few of these combinations when I play these days.
The early tunes you find for yourself will be the most haunting and heart-felt.
These simple flutes are present in every culture and are often made and played by shepherds who have no access to tuition - just time watching the sheep. Many of their tunes have entered the traditions.
What we see as greatness in others is present in us all. The measure of greatness is to find, inside, a light to help others find the same light within them - then all are great. Oddly, the more of this light you find in yourself, the better you are at seeing it in others.Nov 4 2012: Institutions have abuse as part of their dynamic.
The original purpose of the instituion becomes lost as the people within it serve their own agendas by exploiting flaws in the constitution/mission statement.
Organisations fail by design. They eventually collapse - this can be observed in corporations.
Corporations are generally allowed to die - however, government created institutions are not.
Government makes the mistake that a functional institution will remain relevant to the community forever. This is not the case. If a sub-community(insitution) is formed without a specific single goal, it will atrophy into a tribe-unit with abuse as the resulting dynamic.
Ashly Smith clearly manifests the symptoms of bipolar disorder. There are very effective drug treatments for this - if prescribed by an adequately skilled psychiatrist. Unfortunately, such skill is rare. The neuroscience fields are advancing rapidly - one would hope that such skills will become more common.
The answer to harm is healing.
The world's attention must be drawn to this truth if we are to survive the next few decades.Nov 4 2012: hi Don,
i am more interested in root physical causes than the extrapolation of those causes into philosophy.
Philosphy is a powerful tool for awareness, byt it must find dround in reality.
I do not condone the bending of twigs in any way shape or form (propaganda).
Dr Penfield exhibits the right motives, but shows an ignorance of the root causality.
Instead of the word "propaganda" - his hypothesis would be better served by the word "nurture".
We must be careful to recognise violation in the language we use. Upon detection it falsifies everything we say - ubnless we are talking about violence.
If violence is appropriate, then I propose that it should be turned against the enemy - not his victims.Nov 4 2012: Hi Don,
It is pleasing to interact with someone not afraid to "keep me on my toes"!
Many thanks!
Logical intelligence is forever relative - and never absolute. But it is the medium by which we progress.
The family. To replace the fundamental power and value of the family os tp sit on a branch and cut it off behind you.
Any definition of a "sea of society" must build on the power of family - otherwise will fail. If this sea of society does not resemble the family it will fail.
But I must point out, that humans are far more than family - at the least we are tribal. Wolf packs are family. Lion prides are family ... most pure family groups seem to be carnivourous predators. Many mamals are community creatures .. why should we be less than cattle?
And what then of the adoptee?
Please do not confuse philosophy with logic. The words and musings of philospohy trail along like a cowered dog for scraps from teh scientist's table, and yet, the scientist takes scaps from the philospher - to chew the truth from them - a meagre meal, but at least, somewhere to start.
It must be demonstrated - repeatable and open to falsification. Or it is rubbish.
These philosophers that take up ideas that just seem good to them. By all means - try them out, but be willing to admit failure.
You know I hav extensive experience with bipolar people. THey have enormous potential - but it requires willing and loving support as well as highly skilled treatment to gain a net positive fom their swinging nightmare. It is not a task lightly taken - and one that should be abandonned quickly if the loving support is not enough.
Is it now your life's work to take a chunk out of the legal abuse dragon?
An honourable work!
Best regards
MitchNov 6 2012: Hi Don,
YOu might like this:
I recognise that there are some more experienced thinkers than us, but I don't accept that they are better.
And I have almost nil respect for experience - I have known people who have 40 years of experience * of the same day over and over agian! * people who think I'm crazy for seeking a new day every day.
Better than us?
Not likely.
Is there room for improvement?
Definitlely - till our last breath - it should be as sweet as the first.
Can we learn from the 1-day-for-40-years guy?
Yes - he knows more about that day than anyone - but don't take his advice on any other day.
Who is most expert at living your life?
You are.Nov 7 2012: Hi Don,
This is a 2 hour debate.
I have to remind you that I spent 8 years intensively investigating faiths of all types - in person.
I developed a technique of attracting proseltysers - including a method of walking - guaranteed, you walk like that and it will attract every proselytiser for a city block ;)
Following that 8 years, I have maintained an active attention to all things faith and spiritually based.
It is a measure of respect for you and in the name of open mindedness that I will subject myself to this 2 hours yet again.
OK - listened to it, .. all I can say is: "forgive the creationists lord, for they know not what they do."
Nice workout for the amygdala ;)
Hey BTW - I have growing evidence that the Sun has the equivalent of neural network learning expressed in electro magnetic causality! This makes it a brain with many orders of magnitude greater than a human brain!
Would you like to join my Ra-Worship congregation?Nov 7 2012: Yes, both the guys in your link would be cut to shreds by a Jewish Rabbi - who would already know the problems with applying the general to the specific - which is laced through both the debaters' arguements.
Also, I note that Craig attempted to hyjack the questioners's amygdala as a secret attack on her. This is not the actions of someone who is confident of their arguement. I can only conclude that Craig is a pathological lier like most Creationists.
Jesus was a brilliant teacher. By all reports he only ever did-his-block one time with the money changers. In all other things he taught by doing and by answering questions.
It was clever to wrap up the message in teh resurection bottle - wasn't the first religion to do that. One can admire the intelligence in the deceit .. but you gotta open the bottle to read the mesage.Nov 9 2012: Hi Don,
Thank you for posessing (as always) a great capacity for grace!
Here is an idea:
Somewhere within my world view there exists a touchstone. It is the jewel of great value.
I am not always able to touch it, but when i do, it tells me, without words, whether a thing in my perception is a truth or not. It does not tell me why.
I perceive that you also posess this jewel.
Our work is to share this jewel.
This is the only work, and we each given a path that is defined by it.
My touchstone tells me that Creationism is untrue. It does not tell me why, but I perceive that it is not the principle that is in error - it is the translation into false motives that betrays the Creationist.
Through these discussions and the test of my touchstone, I have now perfected a definition of morality that has been missing for quite a while. It describes how creationism is the result of some Christians abandoning god for money. I can only presume that they do not have the touchstone, or have not found their way to it.Oct 26 2012: As has been said by better minds than mine, sometimes, when we change the way we look at things the things we see will change. The premise of this conversation begins on a very shaky foundation, in my view. you say it is obvious that our educational system is broken. You also posit that the state is so bad at raising children. Yet the speaker in this video tells his story of being raised by the state and he hasn't turned out any worse than so many of us who grew up in the Norman Rockwell family. Is it luck, in spite of the rearing, that he found his calling as a poet? Or did his preparation, however challenging and horrid in the telling, actually rear him for this TED exposure? He suggests that we know the answer and that the story of his life is actually the lifeblood of his success, however we or he defines that. Education is a primer not a career. it sets our sails to mine the winds of success but it does not blow the winds. at every echelon of development, the definition of "Education" shifts its shape. Education is merely a preparatory intervention -- it is not the enlightenment, but the access to enlightenment. Every road of learning CAN lead to this access but not every road will. Lemn Sissay has given us a remarkable insight into how the story of our lives can propel us or impale us. but what determines which? It is clear that many people in all careers, princes as well as paupers, priests as well as plunderers, can and do soar as well as sour. This conversation speaks of education as if the expectation "should be" that our systems prepare everyone equally well for success. But this clearly cannot be the expectation of reasonable people just as Lemn has shown. "Where you sit" some one said, "often depends on where you stand" . I think this is the most operative lesson of this most magnificent talk. Kudos Lemn - but this conversation leads us, I fear, away from that most powerful revelation dramatically unveiled by this remarkable "child of the state".
Oct 28 2012: I think Lemn's story is more a testament to the resilience of the human spirit, rather than one to the unimportance of the environment in which one is raised. I believe that our educational system is broken, and by broken I mean that it is not offering a stimulating environment for the majority of children. How many kids with ADD can focus on a video game? If their interests can be stimulated by a meaningful learning environment than I believe we wouldn't have as many 'disordered children'. It is not the kids, but the system we are trying to fit them into that is disordered.
I agree that the educational system is a primer, but my view is that it is quite a poor one. I am asking how can we ensure that children know how to rig their own sails, before they are put to sea?Nov 7 2012: I agree that State education can be a progressive force, although it has the potential to be the opposite. I was more-or-less obliged (due to unusual circumstances) to educate my daughter at home for 2 years. As an educator, I did not find this difficult. However, my impression from researching homeschooling in general, which I did at the time, was the the majority of those who home-school their children are fools who were doing their children a great disservice.
scott lee
Nov 6 2012: The education system where I live could be better, but it could also be worse. I, for one, am very grateful for the public education that was available to me in Canada (BC in fact). That was some time ago now and I imagine in this time of austerity the system has been constrained and is probably worse than when I went to school. Nevertheless we should be thankful for what we have.
- +1
It is true there are alternative methods, with more individualized care, but that requires more funding and we have to be willing to actually fund the education system. I have heard many times that we need to make grand changes to how kids are educated, but when it comes time to pay up, nobody wants to pay for the taxes and most people can't afford private school for their children.
The sad truth is school is supposed to be for education but it is in many ways it is essentially day care. The reason people don't home school more is the fact that parents simply don't have the time. Often both parents must work to get by cannot afford to leave the work force to educate their children themselves. In order to take on the huge task of education, people have to live with a lot less, and may have to give up the idea of owning their own home, or making enough money for their children's post secondary education. These can be tough decisions.
Nov 6 2012: Yes there are good things in the school system but I believe that for the amount of resources dedicated to that system, there's little return on the investment. I believe we can come up with a system that requires far less outside input and can contribute more to society than the glorified babysitting that is currently going on.
Nov 7 2012: It is hard to gauge what the return on investment is for education. How would you measure it? In the strict sense of the term, it doesn't and never will, since public education is by its nature not profitable. As far a a general sense of the benefit to society for having education, it is almost impossible to understand without growing up in a culture that does not have access to it.
However, I do strongly disagree with your reply in one regard. The is the persistent idea floating around that the problem with education is that it isn't efficient enough. That we put so much in and don't get enough out. All we have to do is reform the system and we will be able to have wonderfully educated, mentally healthy, creative, individually catered to children. That just isn't true.
Its no mystery what kids need. We need smaller classes, more individualized learning, special care for kids with special needs and opportunities for the gifted kids to shine. We need sports, arts, science labs, trades shops and access to technology. We need counsellors to help teens in hard times and to help fight bullying and drug addiction. All of those things take resources.
When we strive for efficiency instead of quality in education we get all of the problems that we have. We get larger class sizes and less support for teachers. We get economy of scale, enormous schools with as few employees as possible. We get efficient quality control of education, which turns out to be standardized testing. We get cutbacks to anything that doesn't improve results on those standardized test.
The idea that we can get more for our kids for less investment is the root of our problems in education. We need to get more for our kids with more resources.
We simply need to give the education system the resources it deserves. It is not some bloated ineffective monster; it is a bare bones, underfunded machine that pumps out grads.
We need to fund it properly.
Nov 7 2012: When I state that it takes a tremendous amount of resources to get very little results I am meaning that most of the effort is wasted. It's like trying to grow a tree by watering it every few hours, fanning it for more air and placing mirrors to give it more light. ALl that effort and you'll likely kill the tree. All the effort in education tends to kill children's curiosity, their love of learning.
This is where I see the potential. Instead of attempting to fill children with facts, we need to actively try and spark their curiosity, their enthusiasm. This is a program that in all likely-hood will not work in a rigid bureaucratic system that relies on tests.Nov 7 2012: "Yes there are good things in the school system but I believe that for the amount of resources dedicated to that system, there's little return on the investment."
Compared to what? Other countries (that also have public schools), or private schools (that admit students selectively)? What is your reference point?Nov 7 2012: Back during the recession of the 80's, schools were shutting down in some states due to lack of funding. I stopped over in a small town in New Mexico where the teachers were volunteering to keep the schools open. I let my son enter school for one week to catch up while we looked for work along our trip to Colorado. He loved it. The teachers were taking brown paper bags from charity, to use in class. They did creative things and the kids loved it, learning increased. That all changed when financial times became better and learning became more affordable. It got worse. Still, I'm sure teachers would not volunteer forever, they have to eat too. Maybe there is a fine line between adequately funded and over funded.
Nov 7 2012: "Maybe there is a fine line between adequately funded and over funded."
You might be right, but I think that's primarily an American problem. On one hand you have people like "Tao P" who see it as a given that public education sucks, on the other hand you have the hysterical teacher unions who keep repeating they're underpaid, even some of my favorite progressive commentators fall for this and say things like "Finland actually pays its teachers a decent wage", while American teacher wages are comparable to European, including Finnish, teacher wages, even when you factor in PPP (this comparison is quite reliable because American teachers do get "free" health care, like all Europeans, but unlike many American employees). American schools are also ruined by parents having so much influence over them, nobody needs fat, suburban teabagging moms, with apparently nothing better to do, actively trying to get the biology teacher fired for teaching sex ed or evolution. American schools mostly need investments in equipment and science teachers (all the other teachers are already taken care of just fine) and they need to make sure the amount of money a school receives doesn't depend on the neighborhood it's in.
"By locking them up in and forcing them to complete meanningless homework we tend to rid them of their love for learning"
It's not "meaningless", language is very important in the business world, history is necessary to have educated voters and math and the exact sciences keep the modern world going. When I was a kid I didn't want to play or tend to a garden all day, I actually liked book learnin'.Nov 7 2012: It's less about the amount of funding and more about the stifling bureaucracy in the classroom. I love Moonstroller's point about the volunteering teachers; it's not about them working for free as much as the freedom they had to do what they thought was right. We need to (re)-set up a system that trusts teachers, that respects children's ability to learn and one that aims to inspire kids over cramming them full of facts. This is why I think 'public' and private education is broken.
My point about wasted resources is not that we pay teachers to much, it's that children are far more valuable than we are led to believe. We could set up a educational system in which children learn by setting up a community garden and running it for a year (or more). There are countless ways in which children could contribute to their communities while learning and having fun. By locking them up in and forcing them to complete meanningless homework we tend to rid them of their love for learningNov 5 2012: Here' are a few ideas that will enhance learning potential. Provide only nutritional food in the school lunch rooms. For elementary children provide adequate free time on the playground. I would suggest three recess periods per day, By the way that was common back in my childhood learning years. Teach and them examine the material taught. Allow children the freedom to ask questions outside the box of expectations. Don't teach to the test, teach to the curiosity. Challenge children to think critically and then praise them for doing it. Stop teaching as if children can't get it because they are children and teach as if they can get it because they are active learners. When speaking to children use the vocabulary that best describes what you want to say, don't dumb down your language, because too many children have underdeveloped language. Develop it. And use foreighn language in the school as a building too for their spoken language. Use music and art as a tool to learning. Don't throw these programs out because they don't fit the mold of math science and reading. Use all of the senses of a child when teaching. If you say Johnny needs to develop his listening skills, then use his other senses to reinforce his listeningNov 3 2012: Tao P stated in reply to me:
"Pessimism to me is stating the problems and being unable or unwilling to work towards answers. So my saying you're being pessimistic is not saying you are wrong, but I don't think you are helping us move forward. If we hope to improve the World we need to work with eachother instead of criticizing without any constructive thought."
You are correct that I am pessimistic. I saw what happened to the Occupy Wall street movement. I see "opposition" to changing the status quo being successful. There in lies my pessimism.
But I am not wrong in criticizing the status quo. It is through criticism that we can note our mistakes and discover innovation towards the path to enlightenment and successful social interaction.
All social problems can be resolved and eradicated through the efforts of joint social activity. But we must first bring down the barriers that create social isolationism. We must create an atmosphere of togetherness.
Technology offers an opportunity to do this but will, itself, mold us into a different sort of society if not hobbled with restraint. If that society does not incorporate a sense of togetherness, it becomes just another failed experiment towards creating a Class I civilization.
By pointing out the problems I am not propelling us towards a platform of failure, I am pointing out why the other platforms failed.
But Yes, pessimism is my strong inflection in discussion such as this. But you should use my pessimism to enlarge your ideas, not toss it aside. I am firmly joined to you in the desire for a better way of living together. I appreciate your desire and share in it.Nov 1 2012: Hi dear TED community!
I would like to share my experiences having studied in both sides of continent: The United States of America and Kazakhstan. I am a Kazakhstanian and graduated from a wonderful ordinary village school far away fro city and i am graduate of high school in States. I believe your point is somewhat not relevant to say that state is bad at raising our children. It is much more difficult to blame state when you have a wide range of political leaders in the World. One thing I found after studying for 10 years in my village school in Kazakhstan, I got a scholarship from and went to usa to get my education. I convinced my academic adviser to put me in to 12 grade to graduate and I did graduate with high GPA.
What I want to point here is not my success but rather what is the motivation of some students! Many of people who complain that school is bad, do not even consider what is their child's motivation is. Most of people, even my host parents did not have to talk to my host brothers. I believe it is very bad for them, when they have better conditions of classroom than some other school in India or China do. I believe that most of the people do not value what they have and that is why they spend their time for nothing, do not ask. The other thing is social websites are the worst enemies of students because children tend to what their peers do and cannot go back because now everybody knows it. I believe children need to get an experience to study in poor or highly motivated high worker students schools. Or let your children study in a ordinary highly motivated Singapore or India schools then see the results. I have a lot of American, Canadian, British friends who actually got experience of studying in Southern Asian schools and they say they were blessed to open their eyes and value what they have!!!
Do not blame others but ask from yourself do you knwo what is your children's notivation is?
Did you ask who they going to be in near future?Oct 29 2012: Many things to address here. Can the state educate .. yes. However, historically the government is the least efficient means to do anything.
To see this lets look at the agencies. Fed ED: 5,000 empolyees, Budget 96.8 Billion PURPOSE: to establish policy. I do not know of a corporation in the world that has a section designated to establish policy. A policy is typically described as a principle or rule to guide decisions and achieve rational outcomes. In most cases it is a statement. So Arne Duncan has 5,000 people writing this sentence. Thats $19,200,000 per person to make this sentence the goodest it are.
I just took Arizona Educational Budget as an example. Over 6 Billion spent on education. (No breakdown or dept staff size available). STUDENTS: Estimate 1,000,000 students ... the reason it is an estimate is because we have a ebb and flow of illegal aliens that migrate from school to school and state to state that use our education, welfare, and health services while not contributing to the effort. The federal government allows this and establishes things like the Dream Act which comes from this guess at requirements budget. All while in violation of federal law. Also this is raw and no fed grants or allocations are added. This total students including Charter, college, home schooled, etc .... On the Arizona Dept of ED web the latest data is 1996. Showing Linda Keegan as State Super. Had 6 since.
If any of us wrote check, kept books and records like the state and Fed do we would be housed in prison so far back sunlight could not reach us.
Could a group of 10 families take the 8K per child and teach them better ... no doubt it would be a better use of $80,000 with money left over and great results. Charters do it cheaper and better.
Anytime you let the government and unions do it .... it becomes a money pit .. with questionable results.
This is only slide # 1 .... many more issues.
All the best. Bob.Oct 29 2012: I'm not making a push for private education. I think there can be a form of community based education, kinda like a home-schooling 2.0 approach. It would likely be far cheaper and more effective at inspiring childrens love of learning.
I think you missed my point regarding french. I was told that I had a learning disability regarding languages when in fact I simply had a lazy, or perhaps ignorant, teacher. I like the idea of Summerhill school, a place where you let children choose what they wish to learn about.
Oct 29 2012: You seem to be pushing for community based teaching, the thing is that after a while that really becomes indistinguishable from state schooling, since that is, in essence, nothing more than community based teaching with the inevitable bureaucracy and standards that you would have to introduce as soon as two parents in the "community" disagreed on something related to the teaching.
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Nov 1 2012: Good morning Don, how are you today ? Been posting on another conversation about the power of branding. You can always click on my icon to see what I have been chatting about. Like your arguement about educating within a community. Educating a child not just in formal education but in what they see around them and how loved and secure they feel. Just because people less materially resourced does not mean less opportunities for holistic education. Learned loads from playing on beach and local Botanical Gardens. Learned loads from playing with water in the sink and playing with sand in the sandpit (good for physics especially) learned loads from painting and drawing and writing. Unfortunately also learned loads from dysfunctional parents and intergenerational conflicts. Neural pathways very different to many others and unfortunately also very similar. Still support your ideas of an inclusive community and also unfortunately the need to protect children's space to just be children. (like the UN resolution about a child's right to play).Oct 27 2012: I do know these things, with the exception of French. I moved from LA to Vancouver when I was 9 and was behind my class in French. My teacher convinced me that I had a language learning disability. I didn't try for another language until I was in Argentina and noticed I picked up Spanish with ease. This is one of the problems with the education system. I picked up math very early on and my math classes were sheer boredom. Obviously I don't feel that I gained much from all the time spent in class.
State education is not free. It is quite expensive considering what we get out of it, though since everyone pays for it in taxes few realize the actual cost. The average cost in N. Carolina is $9,800 per year for K-12, not far off from private schools, though that is not what I am advocating. I think it is important to come up with a new method of education, one that is more child centered, as opposed to fact centered. I think it would be ideal to have members of the community teaching children in various tasks, and making their classes, especially the sciences, applicable in 'the real world'. I think it is entirely possible to create a new system; one that requires less and is far more productive. There are millions of children in school, hand-cuffed with busywork and boredom, who would love to do something meaningful.
Oct 27 2012: My wife and I have chosen to homeschool our children. We have adopted five from Ethiopia and have decided that it is in the best interest of some of my adopted children to enroll them in public school, but we homeschool the rest of them. Homeschooling is a great alternative to public education if the parents are willing to accept the responsibilities of it. It is a lot of work, but my kids get that individual attention that facilitates their academic development. And really, I think that's much of what education needs to be. Yes, they need to know certain facts about the world they live in and develop a skill set in math, science, and writing, but training them on how to acquire knowledge on their own in this information age, and letting them take ownership of their own education will set them up for success in every way.
Homeschooling is becoming more popular in the US and Canada, and many parents are engaging in social structures of homeschoolers with co-ops and parent-led activities that eliminate the isolation once deemed so problematic. Outstanding curriculum is widely available as well as online courses for those subjects in which parents are limited in their understanding. And I have found this to be helpful in promoting a spirit of unity in our household.Oct 29 2012: "I do know these things, with the exception of French."
Most people don't, and what if your kid wants to learn French?
"State education is not free."
It's not, but the cost usually gets distributed in such a way that rich people pay more to make up for the money poor people don't have, if all education was private parents on minimum wage couldn't send their kids to school.
John Smith
Oct 27 2012: Do you know algebra, do you know biology, do you know French and Spanish (your child should have the option to choose their second language)? Do you have enough money to hire private tutors for these subjects? Do you have time to teach your children stuff all day? Do you want nuns to teach your children everything fun in life is sinful and that everyone who doesn't live according to some dogma (that includes hating on gay people) goes to hell?
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Most people answer no to all of the above, and that's why we allow the state to educate our children.Nov 7 2012: It would appear that many of our ideas and feelings about public education are similar. I like the Finnish model.
I've been taking some online courses at the many universities that offer them. I can say I pick up more pertinent information about subjects I lack real knowledge in like "Genetics" very quickly. This is still a new offering with some problems here and there, mostly in the neighborhood of feed back. I think the prepared learner, will find much to offer in these types of classes.
It does place the responsibility on teachers to be adequately trained in some new techniques like video taping and editing but once a format is established, they need not go back over it again, increasing their free time. These formats can also be offered in the class that is appropriate supplied with desktop stations.
The speed of learning is amazing. I would recommend everyone take a course and check it out for themselves.Nov 7 2012: "If the state is so bad at raising children, how come we allow the state to educate our children?"
The real truth is because we are "lazy", or preoccupied with more important things.Nov 6 2012: Canada does well in international comparisons - so broken down it probably isn't. It is important to teach critical thinking, though, a weakness of very many educations systems.
However, your main point seems to be your question: "Why do we let the state educate our children?" Well, it is not ultimately the responsibility of the state to educate your children. It's your responsibility and you should do it and not complain about the state. Send your children to school, by all means, but ensure you provide a substantial input yourself. I have a feeling you do. Good for you and your kids!
If the state did not educate children many would suffer from lack of opportunity and there might be no route to demonstrate success in any field - I, for one, would not want to visit an unqualified doctor. As to grading children having a detrimental effect on them - try a Rudolf Steiner school. However, I have met and taught the products of these schools and not yet found a student who was pleased with the outcome.
Nov 7 2012: State sponsored education offers opportunities to instill ideas about evolution that can't be found in home schooling or some private schools. It offers avenues to eradicate socially established norms surrounding ideas of racism and class distinction, that don't exist in some Private University institutions as well.
The state "is" raising our children, unless you can afford some alternative. While providing food, shelter and comfort is paramount to a child's survival, the kind of human being they become has a lot to do with education.
It is possible, in the state sponsored, educational system for a family with old notions of racism and financial separationism, to end up with a child that thinks their family is old fashion, uneducated and odd.
When I was a child, it was essential that a family produce the right ideas in the heads of the children. The basic ideas were: reading; writing; and arithmetic and a sense of nationalistic pride, along with belief in religion. Those ways are quickly diminishing, for the most part. We have become caretakers of our own children. The state does the rearing.
If online education takes hold and we can find a way to supervise our kids at home, it could turn around and move the other way (do we want that?).
We have come a long ways from our raciest roots in North America, even though we still have far to go. The average child may not know how to do arithmetic in their heads but they can get the correct answer more times than not, with their portable brain substitutes, if they understand the fundamentals of arithmetic and how to use a calculator. Most offices today don't allow their employees the opportunity to do arithmetic in their heads. There are still jobs where the ability to do math in your head is still a requirement, especially in the field where it is not usual to find a calculator handy. Most carpenter jobs require this skill.
Mats K
Nov 6 2012: Yes, there is an alternative. I invite you to do a little research on Finland's educational system. Three decades ago, Finland decided to revamp their whole educational system from being competitive to embrace a more collaborative and relaxed environment for their students and scored number one in education as a result of that. This video pretty much sums it up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlOfZL_J5fo
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Nov 7 2012: Excellent Video. Pretty much speaks to the reality of the situation. Perhaps it is the answer to the question posed by the author, Tao P.Nov 3 2012: "What is an alternative to the current method of education. Is there a way to light the fire of children's curiosity rather than smothering it with facts."
Tao P. There is an alternative to this type of educational system. It is a known fact that when children are educated in an environment where there are no losers and winners, the medium average hovers over the middle of the population. Why? Because the winners become ministers too the loosing class. When the bare fact of being human is the source of reverence for all within the population you have harmony, a sense of brother and sister hood a village like atmosphere.
The big power or drive in all of this is the idea of a sense of "Reverence" for the human model. Without it, the human becomes nothing more than another object for manipulation within the framework of survival.
If the greatest act of reverence was for a human being was to give their life for another, then you have the basic premise to establish rule by human devotion to one another.
Every other idea about social harmony falls away from this centrist ideal. The idea of togetherness is central and offset from the idea of self. Self is the current rule of the day and has been for all the history of mankind. We must evolve and become a society of togetherness. Together there is no mountain too large or heavy for us to move. Together, we can move out into the stars.
Believe it or not. The idea of corporation offers an avenue towards reaching this goal. By forming ourselves into corporations we become brothers and sisters of the corporation and the corporations become elements in the society of social existence. Currently, we are spread out too thinly. By contracting ourselves into Social villages (Living corporation cells), we can consolidate our resources better and extend resources to each corporate village cell as it's needs be. From each cell according to it abilities and to each according to its needs.
Tao P
Nov 3 2012: (Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I read this after responding to your previous reply. This is definitely an optimistic post)
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That is one powerful suggestion for a new system of education to be based upon. To take a step further perhaps we can remove the judgement (grading) that is so prevalent in schools today. The only time for tests is when one needs to prove their skills are adequate for a particular task (to drive a car, become a surgeon, work as an electrician) but these can even be performed as an apprentice to a professional who can then approve ones proficiency without a true test.
To build on your other point, I agree that we do need to develop a more co-operational society. It is inevitable that we would go from acting as individuals to acting as groups and communities, it is the only way evolution flows.
I like your point on having mutual corporations, though perhaps what you are stating is more akin to having cooperatives. I think we can apply your idea to communities then perhaps they could have more community space that the members could access and take care of. More places for social interaction.
Nov 3 2012: We see the same picture. :)
The reason most of the systems we've created fail is because they always evolve along capitalistic lines where the greatest portions is distributed to the one with the ability to gather the greatest portion. It is the nature of the game, like playing poker, it a a game more so than a method of creating harmony and togetherness. A wealth distribution network based on need would serve us better.
We need educated children, not children who can pass a test. All children, if given the opportunity to learn, according to their abilities can lean anything. But, if we constrain them with time limits, we introduce a mechanism that accumulates failure, as well as success. We must get ride of the sense of failure. This, of course, is one of the motives of the Special Olympics movement.
The ideas I posed in the beginning about population control are very circulatory in the realm of the ruling class. Why? Because it is a cheap idea to implement. The basic motivation of the wealthy after they obtain wealth is how to hold on to it. It is a natural form of survival of the fittest and dominates almost every faucet of human endeavor today. How to change and eradicate this desire requires us to change the way we live and view success and failure. We have to get rid of the notion of failure.
Testing, of course only helps to foster a sense of failure. But, everything we do is a test of sorts. Each time a doctor preforms an operation it is a test of his/her abilities to accomplish the operation.
What if the doctor fails the test?
Change towards making us feel a sense of togetherness and doing away with any sense of failure is something new. It's something we have never obtained before. It's necessary if we are to continue a sense of reverence for Life.
"It's always more complicated than it appears". John's Rule of Life.
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Nov 4 2012: Don, for each human being hell or heaven, as you believe, is only a breath away. It can't get any closer.
Yes, I agree, togetherness should be the goal of all humanity.Oct 28 2012: "Anyone, but me... Just so long as I don't have to take responsibility for my sex life... It's fine. Give them to the government."


text: The College of Business Administration computer labs are located on the second floor of the Business Administration building. The Open Lab, BAB215, is open to all UAH students during the posted hours. General Lab Policies Labs are locked when not in use to protect equipment. No food or drink is allowed in the labs. Do not save anything important to the lab computers. Always save your work to external storage (thumb drive, email to yourself, etc.) Computer usage is subject to the guidelines in the UAH General Computer Use Policy and the policy of our internet provider, AREN. Logging In Log in using your Charger ID. Your password will default to your first and last initials followed by the last six digits of your A# (e.g. js001234). Printing Printing in the open lab is available for $0.07 a page using your Charger Card's Flex account. When sending a print job you will be prompted to enter your A#, please enter the whole number including the A. To print the job you will need to go the the Release Terminal next to the printer and enter your A# again, choose the job to print, choose "Debit Print" and swipe your Charger Card. For more detailed instructions click here. Lab Assistance For technical support, please contact the CBA Network Support office at 824-6510, or visit us in BAB 329. Lab Reservations Faculty may reserve a lab for classroom use. The available labs are: 207 - holds 37 students 211 - holds 35 students 214 - holds 24 students To reserve a lab or view the current schedule go to http://cba.uah.edu/lab-schedule

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Hey Everyone!!
In the midst of holiday spirit I was wondering what everyone's favorite Christmas music was?!
My Top 5 Are...
Professor RJ Ross "On This Silent Night"
Bing Crosby- "I'm Dreaming Of A White Christmas"
Mariah Carey- "All I Want For Christmas Is You"
Laura Turner- "Mary, Sweet Mary"
Jackson 5- "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town"


text:
- Corvida Raven
- Brooklyn, NY
- United States
Community Catalyst, TED Conferences
This conversation is closed.
Why don't "the people" tell the news? Why do we make media companies responsible for reporting our news?
After an amazing Live Conversation with Julia Bacha today on encouraging the media to cover nonviolence leaders, I couldn't help wondering why don't people make the news?
Why do we let media companies tell us what the news is, as if we have no idea what's going on in our own backyards? We ARE the news. We make the news what is it, and yet it's not even decided by us. Why is this?
Why do we feel it's the responsibility of media companies to report on us instead of the other way around?
Sep 20 2011: News = entertainment. It's no higher up the cultural ladder than soap operas.
The standard of news journalism in NZ is laughable. It's pathetic and I am constantly dumbfounded as to why so many people hold "the news" in such high regard.
There's far more of value available through Dora the Explorer than network news.
Sep 20 2011: Awesome comment Scott. What's considered "news" has certainly changed rapidly in the last decade. Is that media companies fault or the fault of the people?
Sep 20 2011: Initial ideas: A quick Google search says that news is "newly received or noteworthy information, esp. about recent or important events." The problem with the news is that "noteworthy" is a loose term that can be interpreted as the ability for news medias to simply "entertain" subscribers without providing wholesome information. However, the interpretation of news is also left up to the consuming public, and the fact that the public can decide to listen to one news source or another shows their approval for noteworthy information, which sadly, I think is based off of what gains attention, thus creating profit. Perhaps it is a vicious cycle? Thoughts?
Ben Jarvis
Sep 21 2011: i think it's clearly the fault of a lack of standards regulation. if news broadcasters aren't forced to maintain a high quality, why would they spend the money on qualified professionals, proof-readers and fact checking when opinion and assumption are so much easier and cheaper to come by? they are businesses out to make a buck, not a nobel prize.
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also i don't think there's really anything underhanded about how one-sided news usually is. it's not about keeping people in the dark about the other side, it's about ensuring advertisers keep buying time. i've heard it said recently that ron paul has been unfairly sidelined by the media, but that's a perect example - he hasn't been sidelined because they don't like his views, others have been given moe attention because they pay for ads.
Sep 21 2011: Well said ^^
News media organisations certainly like to present themselves as full of "integrity" and "up to the minute relevance" though.
I also think that, in general, the News media has seriously underestimated peoples' media-savviness. I think it's safe to say that the TV Generation is now 2 generations deep and people are developing (informally, as schools have largely ignored TV) the ability to identify spin (bullshit).
Advertisers probably also undervalue the general public's media consumption habits. Maybe they don't.Sep 21 2011: Scott, advertisers are getting the message big time and they are worried. That is why they are so keen to get into social media. Levis for example does a lot around social media and they believe that the money is in personal recommendations by socially adept or popular figures. They know that they are no longer getting much bang for their buck in tv and radio. the message is too broad, not targeting the right potential buyers. The advertising push is on to gain ground in all sorts of social media.Sep 23 2011: I don't think it matters what techniques advertisers employ - if the product is good, then it'll sell (word of mouth) and if it isn't, no amount of spin or 'cool by association' will work.
The great thing about social media is that the producers and advertisers won't have one-way control of the message anymore, so if people think it's crap, they will say so - which is a very good thing.
Hopefully we'll see a similar thing happen in politics too..Sep 21 2011: It's both. I have been and am on many sides of the equation, having edited and helped launch news sites, being that I am also a tv commentator and write for some major publications, being someone with quite a healthy social media following and of course as a consumer. On the editorial side, what those I have worked with and for have been most concerned about is 'eyeballs'. Quality content has not been raised at all. Quality to me being that which informs and enlightens and actually provokes a reader to think. I have left places because of the trash that we were posting as 'news '. And these are major sites.
I am often shocked by a) how easy it is to become a commentator ad b) how willing the public is to absorb any information they are given with little to no reflection. I suppose people assume that because it is on tv or in writing it must be true. The more time I spend in the media world the less I trust anything I read, hear or see.
News and media now is mostly all business and titillation. The industry requires a radical rethink of itself and its responsibility to serve readers who trust and rely on it for shaping how they see the world.
. .
Sep 20 2011: So many things ceaselessly bombard a person since birth, externally and internally, particularly today, with so much misuse of public media tools and accessibility, that it is challenging to stay connected to the truth.
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Great question Corvida.
Well put Scott.
I have worked hard to insulate myself against the media ever since I became aware of it in childhood. News starts in second grade with gossip initiated by a perception-ally challenged person. It is perpetuated by narrow people. Then it is subscribed to and consumed by the lazy who don't wish to allocate any effort into finding the truth for themselves.
Colin Platt
Sep 27 2011: When several years ago I told a Wall Street Journal columnist my desire to create a nonprofit that would support the telling of news stories in the human interest, from countries where aspiring journalists lack the training, technology, and platform to convey their reality, his answer was a flat, "it'll never work -- there's no money in it."
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From his perspective, news cannot exist without advertising, and advertisers favor a subject matter that lends toward the sensational and spectacular. Ads are tested to sell their products best when viewers are in a state of uncertainty and fear. News has been shifting more toward the spectacle, and away from the in-depth investigative reporting and nitty-gritty details of the human experience, for many decades. When I suggested to him that editors shouldn't arbitrate what is newsworthy, he sighed forlornly.
Stories of war and disaster reliably make the front pages, as mainstream outlets gain access through special relationships with government, until new wars and disasters take their place. "Fatigue" is cited as a reason to draw down coverage, from the humanitarian crisis and civil war in Darfur, to the clean-up and rebuilding of New Orleans, to the wars of attrition in Iraq and Afghanistan. But these stories go on.
I still stubbornly believe the audience is out there for the nitty-gritty details of people's suffering and struggle to create a better world, and advertisers don't have a place there anyway. Viewers can become more active in supporting investigations that matter to them, and news that's local to them, using online tools and making personal connections.
Independent journalists can collaborate and put their work out there instead of competing for dwindling positions with established companies that serve their advertisers and do a disservice to the truth. If it's factual, well-researched, and biased toward the human interest instead of corporate interests, then they shouldn't have to starve to continue their work.
Sep 27 2011: Yes, I am here in the audience. In fact, I have shut off TV a long time ago... My awareness of the news does not come form mainstream media, although I check that periodically to stay in touch with the reality the media is designing.
I believe in the power of one. Plus one, plus one is even better :-) So, let's start that non profit!Sep 20 2011: If I may say, I think one issue is that many people are not aware of the systematic manipulation they are exposing themselves to by watching and absorbing the material from popular media outlets such as CNN, Fox News, ABC, etc.
Noam Chomsky in his book (if I remember correctly) called "Imperial Ambitions" gives us a detail account of this manipulation process known as the propaganda model (Its a lot more detailed than what Wikipedia has to offer, not to say that Wikipedia is not a great source for information)
there are essentially three stages to the propaganda model. The first stage is the news anchor presents a particular but rather controversial issue (stem cell research, abortion, police brutality, etc) and then gives a brief statement about the issue.
During the second stage they present both sides of issue (this includes their original story/opinion of the issue) as well as what other people have to say about it (this is usually in the form of the news getting stories from random people or asking someone of high prestige to give their analysis of the issue)
The third and final stage to this is they bring two people one, with high prestige (usually governmental officials, college professors from prestigious schools, C.E.O's or pretty much anyone from the intelligentsia). They are brought on for their "expert opinions about the topic to get you to agree on a certain point". this last stage is very important since many people would rather listen to these "experts" as opposed to Joe and Melissa, who may have relevant and factual information that serves a suitable purpose but instead gets labeled as conspiracy theorist. These experts are brought on to convince they masses that the information they will receive is correct and to be honest with you this is where the real trouble is.
It really should come down to the individual being critical of all the information they receive and do research. only then can "the people" tell the news.
Kent Spencer
Sep 23 2011: There's major reasons we have big media companies. If it wasn't structured that way, there would be a lot of rumors. Like celebrity gossip. Journalism is something that comes from with in. The love of learning new things and gathering up information to tell a story. The media is made up of regular people like yourself. You cant just wake up and decide you want to report on what's going on in Texas. There's ambition that you have to have, just like you need to be successful with any other job. No, the news wont be accurate at all times, but it will for the most part depending on where you're getting your information from. Be a reporter then join the club. Report about whats going on in your neighborhood. Make a blog, get some credit behind your name, and the readers will follow. News comes from all over the world. Would you not be a part of "the people" then? If not explain.
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Sep 26 2011: Great point
But I think you should really watch the documentary "Outfoxed" jor read Edwards Berneys "Propaganda" (He was one the the leading figures in the formation of the Public Relations Industry, who by the way is responsible for the way "news" is filtered into the public") just to get a different perspective. I do agree that not all journalist or reporters are bad and your right, rumors would be spread all over the globe but one really has to give up their integrity and values just to be part of the big news corporations. I really do respect independent journalist. they are they only source of news that I read or listen toSep 23 2011: Cordiva --
The reason we "the people" don't tell the news is because:
1. We think they are the experts and/or we think it is not our job
2. We don't have the support or platform (read: money) to produce media pressure and/or PR and/or alternative sources
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Sep 24 2011: Some team has to gather and organize all newsitems from different sources.
But how to get the attention from a large public and donations to support it?
Something like this maybe:
Sep 27 2011: Nice link!
Debra Smith
Sep 27 2011: A point the Andrea made on her question "What facts are facts" bears repeating here. She suggested there that there is often a price to be paid by individuals who tell the truth. They have kids to support so they cannot afford to lose their jobs, they have the safety of families to consider and they have financial considerations as well.
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Perhaps that is why many successful movements which created great changes in some societies in Latin America were led by middle aged women. Corporate or other interests had very little leverage against them and they had already lost what was most dear to them ( like when their sons were 'disappeared')so they chose to stand against the evils which were being perpetrated in their countries. Maybe this is also why the young are doing so well in leading the middle east changes.Sep 21 2011: First you need an educated and unbiased people, dedicating most of their time to researching and doing a good job at communicating basic ideas. Most media may be biased or simple entertainment and have low quality, but bombarding us with more low quality and mediocre media, making it harder to find the critical thinking in high quality media is not a good solution. That's what chit-chatter, gossip, twitter and fb are for. All in all, you can have people spread the message, but for a good analysis, there has to be an effort and preparation.Sep 21 2011: In case anyone is interested here are several examples of the Propaganda Model. Note that in most of these, the second and third stages are usually put together:
in this video notice the first stage (presentation of what the story is going to be about, which in this case is religions role on politics). The second and third stage were put together with the introduction of Sam Harris (as an author) and Ralph Reed (the politician). Not to say anything bad about these individuals but look at how they were presented. She emphasized how Ralph Reed was a Former Director of the Christan Coalition. With Sam Harris book title "The End of Faith", one already knows the position he is taking. The third stage is the debate, but also how they want to convince you to not listen to Sam Harris (noted by how little Harris got to talk (from getting cut off) and how long Reed got to talk).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BAFb97L3KU or for a more detailed account watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IwIRNM5noY
the first stage on the first link is skipped in this video but you can see how Fox, wants to shut down any sort of liberal thinking. This includes both the second and third stage This is a clip taken from the Documentary "Outfoxed" which also talks about the systematic manipulation of the American Public by Rupert Murdoch.
This shows all three stages, as well as how Richard Dawkins is labeled as "Atheist" as opposed to Physical Anthropologist
hope this helps
Kat Haber
Sep 27 2011: I am always struck by the distinction between my version of the truth when I have attended a newsworthy event and the media's version. Truth-telling from multiple points of view as innocently populated by everyday tweets and posts may be the ultimate media. Democratization of the middle road, of compromise really being lived, boldly being broken by radicals/revolutionaries/underdogs might emerge in the final tale from the incremental tiny truths revealed along our daily ways.Sep 27 2011: Well there's a place on the menu area on the top of this page, right under TED Community which is surely waiting for a TED News!
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Sep 27 2011: What a fantastic suggestion, Numa! Thumbs WAAAAAAY up!Sep 26 2011: If they think its unbiased news and are entertained by it or it supports their ideals, then most will insist on trusting it. People tend to overlook disingenuous statements if they strongly agree with the underlying ideology.
Therefore, the level of bias (if you could measure such a thing) in news outlets seems to be indicative of the strength of the populations ideology. The stronger the beliefs of the populace, the more bias and hyperbole will be tolerated. I imagine you could chart hyperbole or bias in news organizations with war or economy and see some interesting results.
Another problem is tolerated news branding.
The most trusted name in news - OK?? Says you.
Whats happening and why - Sets many up for intellectual laziness and insults my intelligence (I can figure out why, just tell me what's happening)
Fair and balanced - Outright lie
These statements are misleading or disingenuous. The news is just entertainment under a false pretext.
Sep 26 2011: I totally agree..I see this connection between popular ideology and its connection with the meida very often in discourses about religion and especially with right wing news. It does not help that America predominatly values christian theology and lack awareness in politics....In otherwords, its very easy the news to convince them that what is being said is correctSep 24 2011: I really don't know what makes certain organizations just responsible for giving people what they want to know not the truth.
given the term "truth" is totally vague
so these organizations tell what's possible to be said
given the fact that "meetings" are all closed
afterwards "they" tell what is supposed to be said
meanwhile, you see journalists have their sources or when they run like crazy to be the first to receive the news
this mechanism is old fashion
I personally don't understand, the environment has changed though "they" keep governments family like
as it's for certain people, who said that?
why do we have governments at all?
security??!!!, we have governments now, we are not secure
I think sometimes maybe terror is a move from governments themselves to keep being in power
this age is gone, and so shall the system governing the old approach
I really keep thinking what makes me believe what was told in the news is right
is it possible to check how correct the news were!, sure no
I can go on, when an old guy talking to his young children, is it always the truth said there? or what the father thinks suite the kid, assuming when he grows "enough" he would know
at that time, he will be going for some time trying to figure out the benefits, consequently coping with the idea
Sarah Moran
Sep 24 2011: I believe that the news will lean towards a certain amount of bias, no matter who reports it. In order to collect a credible amount of information from many sources, many people will have to be involved, thus turning it into an organization of sorts. Most individuals are not quick to take on lengthy tasks without some sort of substantial reward in sight, so that is where benefits come into play. Many individuals have a lot going on in their lives, so why take on the job of reporting on top of the job they already have?
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Joel Detka
Sep 24 2011: I guess this is just a nationalistic point of view. Laws govern the way that news can be offered. I studied news and journalism in the radio broadcasting environment and we were taught what we could, and could not do and say because we are not allowed to show bias in any story. For news stories, they are chosen by the journalists and studied by the journalists. And fortunately for me, the journalists I met are the people, just regular people who live their lives the same way as everyone else does. The only major difference is that the journalists are trained to study news stories and ask the right questions to garner the proper information needed to actually tell the story properly. I am sure this isn't the same with news media worldwide, but I do know it is the way journalism and news media works in the industry I obtained my training in.Sep 23 2011: Hi all, very interesting chain of comments...just a few points from an Indian perspective....News has become a tool in the hands of the influential, specially in India. Lobbies in government, business and larger social life co-create news all the time. Every news channel in India survives on a diet of 'breaking news' and 'scams'. These are regularly served up to viewers. The sources & timing of these stories is often motivated by a lobby. Indian citizens have become consumers of news & information rather than creators of the same. As internet penetration improves a lot of local news and 'feelings' & 'thoughts' are getting posted on twitter, facebook and shared via mail or sms. this represents a new and very interesting trend in India...if you look at mobile penetration which is still increasing at 5-7 million handsets per month and the fact that we already have 650-700 million mobile users, the opportunities to co-create news has increased exponentially. News, its relevance and the politics that governs the choice of news will see a sea-change in India in the next few years. i believe the younger demographics of the country & high literacy rate in the middle classes will challenge the existing bastions from which news emanates.
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Erol Toksoy
Sep 21 2011: news is what rich men wants you to hearSep 20 2011: i don't have much to contribute here sadly, but i always thought it was a bit strange. media companies are the only form of news awareness for many people... but those news companies and reporters miss half of the real news, or ignore the half of the story they aren't reporting on. perhaps people should be focusing on methods to find news out by themselves, becoming more self-sufficient. we'd benefit greatly, so much is done for us that we just trust the media companies word when they're giving us the news. are we aware enough that just because it's on tv or the internet... doesn't mean it's true?
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Sep 20 2011: People can be very lazy about finding news out for themselves. I think the tools and infrastructure is in place to create a community site of news submissions for local communities. See my first reply to Debra Smith for more information on that idea.
Finding your own sources also poses the question of how do you verify a good source of news? How do you know that your source is actually right or at least as close to the truth as possible?Sep 24 2011: Why don't 'the people' tell the news? That's what I thought blogs were for.
mae gale
Sep 21 2011: That's exactly the project I'm trying to promote in my country, Honduras. The news here is extremely sensationalist, focussing only on the negative events.
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This effects us as a country not only internally but globally. The most popular journal in my country has metadata in their site with keywords like "massacre, kidnapping, floods, poverty" so we rank higher in news with these topics. We're trying to start a community newsfeed/blog about positive ideas and initiatives happening now and also create and interest for these positive topics (sadly most Hondurans are stagnate and indifferent when it comes to good events, since continuing them require some kind of effort on their behalf ).
We're really struggling with getting people on board with the concept.
What do you think is a creative and innovative way to get people to start talking and connecting and start telling their stories, their news?
We're working as a non-profit org, so we can't really offer monetary awards. I've thought about using vanity for charity, perhaps offer people those 15min of fame but for "heroic" act.
I use quotation marks for the word heroic because sometimes, the simplest things feel very heroic, because they require so much sacrifice and will power.
Perhaps start featuring small and ordinary acts, yet heroic to some. Like someone that wakes up at dawn to run everyday. Or feature a family that has adopted a child.
I'm looking for ideas to inspire people to wake up and be part of a nation through will and conviction, not just by residence and cultural affinity.
If anybody has any ideas. Please let me know!
www.tubandera.orgSep 20 2011: Hi Corvida! Great question. I think it is an issue of dissemination and perhaps of teaching old dogs new tricks. This is where we need our young adults to lead us. Tell us older adults how to do it. I will then do it. All of my life I got the news from traditional sources and other sources were sort of considered incredible or gossip.Remember we did not grow up with the hope or the reality of TED. Now we have it we have to retrain our minds and we need the young to tell us what their fresh, untainted, unprogramed eyes see.
Sep 20 2011: Debra, I've always gotten my news from close relatives and friends on a regular basis and sometimes from my colleagues at TED also. This is very localized news though and I feel I get more information from the people on the ground rather than the media empires across the globe.
I think the tools are certainly in place now to start utilizing platforms like Twitter, Facebook, and Blogs to start creating our own local community news platforms that are then filtered and solicited to major news companies.
This is just 1 of many idea/concepts I have about this.
I personally run into the problem of wondering which news sites to trust as sources of information and that's is almost completely dependent upon the topic of discussion. That's a nightmare for me at 23. I don't have the patience, motivation, or time to fact check every source. I'm way more trusting of my community though because they're on the ground experiencing first hand the things that I'd like to hear more about.
Debra Smith
Sep 20 2011: Lindsay, Andrea and I have been working on three separate questions here on TED individually and together. We have all become deeply concerned about the media, credibility, access to information and I am wondering what would make us all alarmed at the same time. In our lifetime there has never been an opportunity like TED conversations represents. It is an amazing world changing hope.
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There have always been special interests that worked to spin the news. Access has not always been easy. Watergate, things about Vietnam, things about all wars were hidden from the public but somehow with a credible source like TED teaching us the truth of things maybe what we are feeling is the dark before the dawn. Let's hope so.
Sep 21 2011: Yes, and it just clicked for me in responding to a comment by Ajeet at his talk on oil, that without information we dont' even know what most affects our lives and determines our futures.
In that sense I would have to take issue with the proposition of this question..The long information gap in news, and the growing complexity of our world today has created a great distance between "we the people" and what we need to know to keep our governement responsive to us at the national leel and to insure that our place in the wolrd of nations is responsive to "we the citizens of the world" How can we drive the news if aren't even in possession of critical information..can't even pose rhe right questions?
Special interests as you say Debra, have always tried to spin the news..that seems much easier today..news outlet are all partioned by ideology and political orintation ( I wouldn't dream of watching Fox news and those wtachers prbably wouldn't dream of wtaching Rachel Maddow or Charlie Rose or tune in to Democracy Now or NPR. There is nothing to defelect spin and distortion because as you are exploring in your loss of balanced journalism conversation, we don't have any sources of balalnced unbiased reporting anymore.
I think if "we the people" can learn to think and seek information beyond political affilitation and ideology we can begin to rebuild the 4th estate to be what it needs to be to support democracy and freedom wolrd wide.Sep 21 2011: This is the crux of the issue. So much spin, so much propaganda, so many special interest groups saying that pink is red, blue is black, white is black, tobacco is good to kids in third world countries after first world countries proved that they were liars. Marketing baby formula in areas of the world with no clean water without conscience. How does the average person discern? How do we gather and disseminate the information we do find.
Whistle blowers who tell the truth are against well paid PR specialists who have market survey data charting just what arguments are working when they lie to the public. PR specialists are expert in making the white knight look like a crazy, a criminal or a liar.
That is an additional part of the story, so many truth tellers are spun as crazy conspiracy theorists that we no longer believe in them at all. I find myself very critical of conspiracy theories and for years I just dismissed all of this information on the premise that society worked better than that and it would be impossible to get so many people to participate in a major cover up. After an MBA, I no longer believe that. Isn't that weird? I go into the education reserved for those who put all of their weight behind corporations and the material they give me to study convinces me of how bad the problem really is. I went from a sleep walker to fully awake when I realized the tactics were being used against our kids, our families, our pocketbooks.
Jay Mane
Sep 23 2011: I'm doing this as well. I've stopped watching and reading mainstream news on a regular basis for almost two years now.
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text:
ROUND 7 – Canada, 9 June 2013, Montreal
1st: Sebastian Vettel (Red Bull Renault), 1hr 32m 09.143s (av. race speed 198.759 km/h)
2nd: Fernando Alonso (Ferrari), gap: 14.408s
3rd: Lewis Hamilton (Mercedes), gap: 15.942s
Fastest Lap: Mark Webber (Red Bull Renault), 1:16.182 = 206.080 km/h on lap 69
Pole Position: Vettel, 1:25.425 =183.782 km/h
Sebastian Vettel had never won in Canada. Nor, for that matter, had his Red Bull Renault team. He put that right in the most emphatic fashion in Montreal this year, streaking away to open up a two-second gap by the end of the first lap and coming home after 70 laps with almost quarter of a minute in hand. Vettel, still only 25, sowed the seeds of his 29th career victory by breaking the recent Mercedes run of four straight pole positions. His own 39th pole came after a tricky, rainy qualifying hour in which he just shaded Lewis Hamilton's Mercedes by 0.087s.
"The car was amazing, absolutely amazing," Vettel told his team on his slow-down lap. "Finally we got it off the list, I'm very proud of that. We've had good races here before: two years ago we were very close, that was my mistake on the last lap." Vettel did make a couple of minor mistakes in his lonely run to the flag, including a close shave with the wall on exit of Turn 4, as he pushed to give himself a full pit-stop cushion. "It's nice to win here, as it's a very special race," he added. "Not just the track, but the whole city enjoys the race and it's a nice atmosphere."
Hamilton, three times a winner in Montreal himself, fought hard to retain his second place but in the end had to give best to an irresistible Fernando Alonso in the Ferrari. The Spaniard, who qualified only sixth, found stunning late-race pace to fight past Australia's Mark Webber and reel in Hamilton with eight laps left. Though Hamilton came back hard – they touched lightly two laps later – Alonso held on to limit the damage to his title chances as Vettel opened up a 36-point gap after seven rounds. "We didn't have a good qualifying," admitted Alonso, "I didn't get the lap together. But today I had a great fight with Mark and Lewis at the end of the race. Even if you have good pace they are super-talented, so this second place has a victory taste."
Webber was disappointed to qualify only fifth, made an outstanding start to sweep past Valtteri Bottas in the Williams – a surprise in third place on the grid – but was bottled up behind Nico Rosberg's Mercedes in the early phase of the race. He was very quick in the middle stint on Medium tyres until his charge was compromised by Caterham's Giedo van der Garde chopping across his bows at the hairpin. "The whole top section of the wing was gone on the left hand side, so it didn't help from then on," the Australian lamented. "I don't know what he was doing. We had a lot of blue flags as we approached the hair pin and I rolled to the inside, giving him plenty of space so he knew I was there, but when we got to the apex he tried to hit it; I don't know what was going on with that." Webber still managed to deprive Vettel of one of his favourite tokens, the fastest lap of the race, while Van der Garde picked up a stop-go penalty.
Alonso cruised past Kimi Raïkkönen into second place in the Championship as Lotus endured another nightmarish weekend. Dragging a 10-place grid penalty with him from Monaco, Romain Grosjean didn't make it out of Q1 anyway and finished 13th; for Raïkkönen, brake problems, trouble with fuel consumption and a botched pit stop conspired to severely damage his title hopes. The Finn still managed to equal Michael Schumacher's record of 24 successive points-scoring finishes when he limped home ninth. "Most of my race was just following the cars in front and defending from those behind, so not the most enjoyable day nor the most enjoyable result. It's been a bad weekend, but at least we scored a few points," said Raïkkönen, whose name is being strongly linked with a move to Red Bull for 2014.
Other talking-points
Jean-Eric Vergne secured his best F1 result for Toro Rosso in sixth place, nine ahead of Aussie team-mate Dan Ricciardo. 'JEV' did well to qualify seventh, then brought the team its best result since a certain triple World Champion was in their cockpit. "Incredible! I'm very happy," said the Frenchman, who was also a top-10 finisher in Monaco. "The best result for me of course, but also the highest finishing position since Vettel's results for the team in 2008. It is even more satisfying, because it was a normal race in the dry, with no one going out in front of me so we achieved this position fair and square. It's a great result for the team as we are making progress race by race and it's very encouraging for the rest of the season."
A disgruntled Ricciardo failed to build on his first appearance in Q1 since China. "After just four laps, the car was oversteering like crazy and I couldn't manage the tyres anymore. As the race went on, we tried to improve the car balance and maybe we improved it a bit, but our pace was really slow."
Another driver to catch the eye was Paul di Resta. For the second race in a row he got stuck in Q3, Force India calling him in to work on a gearbox problem when he felt it could have been done between sessions. Starting 17th, he ran until lap 57 before making his one stop and finished seventh. "I didn't manage to get any long run data on Friday so it feels extra sweet to make this one-stop strategy work with a very long stint on the mediums," said the Scot. "It also feels good to come back so strong after a difficult qualifying session. The tyres lasted very well, the lap times were competitive and the team told me it was my decision about when to make my stop." Team-mate Adrian Sutil was told when to make one of his – it was a drive-through penalty for ignoring blue flags. But the German survived that, a 360-degree spin and a tap from behind by Pastor Maldonado's Williams to come home for a point in 10th place.
Next race: round 8, Great Britain, June 30
Back to the home of the World Championship: can Webber take his third Silverstone win? Watch out for a full preview right here…