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If you've ever seen those little music boxes you wind up, or crank, and they play a little tune over and over from a little metal drum of notes, but wish they did more than play the same 10-second tune over and over for eternity? If only you could change the song and write your own music for it... Now there's an idea.
After a year of design and work, I completed my Re-Programmable Music Box / Mechanical Synthesizer / Organ Grinder Thingy. It has many names, and is 100% non-electric. Just wood, metal, and good ol' people power.
I began this project as a sort of proof-of-concept, designing something from scratch without a lot to base it off of, and a whole lot of engineering problems to solve. Also, I didn't really know what I was doing. It was intended to be a learning and problem-solving experience. And it was a lot of fun.
If you like my work, please vote for it in the Woodworking Competition beginning October 3rd.
Step 1: Design and Planning
I started with the idea: a large wood cylinder will hold metal pegs. It will rotate and force the pegs to pluck metal tines, which are tuned to specific notes.
I selected 12 notes across, since it seemed like a very flexible number of notes and allowed me to fill it with a simple 8-note scale in the middle, with a few extra high and low notes. I could also tune in flats or sharps if I wanted some specifically, or get almost all of a chromatic scale in. I selected 32 notes "around" the cylinder, because that's what you need to play Pop Goes The Weasel, or any 8-bar song using quarter notes.
The cylinder is made of softwood, 8" in diameter, that I picked up from a nearby carpenter for free. I found a belt that fit snugly around it to use along with a few gears and a belt for the cranking mechanism.
The tine material was cut from the prongs of a garden rake. This works great because it is flexible but snaps right back into place. The tine holder design was sort of up in the air until the rest of the machine was done, so that I could do testing. Initial designs were too complex and tiny, but the final design (image 3 below) is about as simple as possible, I believe.
Originally I wanted to use almost all wood for this project, but it turned out wood wasn't going to offer the precision that I needed for the tines. I ended up doing it with a CNC at my college. In Step 7 I hypothesize how it could be accomplished without such expensive tools.
When designing the wooden frame, try to place the pieces to get as few exposed edges as possible. The edges you do have, try to align them so that they create borders and still look appealing to the eye.
do you have a video of it playing something? i want to hear the sound quality of it before i make it for a project
Not the best video but frankly, it doesn't sound the best. If you make one I hope you manage to improve on it.
I was trying a small music box design I made... not so good but when I saw this I threw it away and decided o try to attempt this at school instead-thanks
Thanks for the link, but unfortunately with that model we cannot change the music as we want...
And it would probably sound much better if the long static "teeth" were made of metal.
Anyway, the closest thing I've seen to your project is the Gloggomobil.
But that's incredibly expensive!
Take a look at this, its not quite the same but certainly a well priced compromise.
It would make a wonderful gift to offer someone!
Unfortunately I don't think I can build this by myself...
Do you know of any place that sells a music gadget similar to yours?
And have you ever thought about selling this on Shapeways, for example?
I'm sure it would be a huge success!
There are similar things on Thingiverse which let you put a song on the drum and print it out but it is not changeable once printed, you have to make a new drum each time. Perhaps that would be something you would be interested in.
See this one: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:53235
I liked your project a lot!
It has inspired me to build my own music box, which was made in home conditions without expensive equipment.
I would like you to watch the video of the music box, which you inspired me to build.
Thanks again for the awesome tutorial!
Very nice work! I like yours a lot, it looks great and works well too. Glad to hear you were inspired by my work.
Anyway, it's a great work and I'm thinking about doing one myself! Thank you, it gave me a lot of ideas!
I understand your frustration in getting the cylinder precisely shaped. I'm considering constructing mine out of more staves (maybe 24 instead of the 8) and possibly just forgetting about rounding it. At those shallow angles, the pegs should have no difficulty plucking the tines.
Since you're having difficulty getting your cylinder to shape, perhaps you could mount it on a mandrel and use an electric drill as a makeshift lathe. You could cap each end of the cylinder with a large metal disc with a hole in the center (basically a very large fender washer) so the pressure would be exerted evenly, and then run a length of threaded rod through the center and clamp the piece in place with a couple of nuts. I use a similar method when building handles for my fishing rods, and the cylinder is big enough in diameter that I think you would get an acceptable speed of rotation on the outside face to effectively shape it.
Regardless, it's a really great project, and I'd be thrilled if mine turned out as well as yours did as-is. I'd like to find a wind-up mechanism similar to what you see in commercially available music boxes, so that the cylinder doesn't need to be manually cranked, and the music would start and stop when the box was opened. I'd just hack an old music box, but I doubt the mechanism would be strong enough for a cylinder this size. Any ideas?
The mechanisms inside a music box are incredibly weak. They are a coiled piece of metal which when cranked, is tightened up, and when let go, it expands back to its original size, rotating a center shaft. The scale you would need to go with for that kind of mechanism, for this size of application, would need to be huge.
I would recommend electric drive, its the only way to get the torque required. Using a drill motor, a worm gear, and a large gear on the cylinder would give you slow speeds and no slippage (worms can't slip backwards.) I would say this is the only practical way to do it. You're saying you want this for a music box, but unfortunately its hard to miniaturize this design any further. I would recommend you take a old music box and maybe try to make a new drum cylinder to play a different tune, a favourite song or something, using the existing notes. I don't know how you would machine something that small and precise, though.
Its a major challenge. There are a lot of difficult mechanical and practicality issues here.
The electric motor solution would work, but I feel that it would detract from the handiwork appearance of the music box, and I don't want her to have to hassle with batteries or an adapter. She won't mind the hand-crank mechanism, I think, so I'll probably just save myself the extra frustration and leave that as-is.
I tried my hand at a simpler project (basically a mitered box) to give myself a refresher before I ruin anything of this scale. I'm having a difficult time getting my cheap Skil table saw to cut miters accurately enough to make a box, let alone a cylinder. I think my best bet will be to only use 8 staves in my cylinder, as you have. Any advice on getting the cutting angle just right?
I haven't got much for suggestions for that, I'm afraid.
Thanks very much for the kind words. Its the community here that helps keep me going.
out of respect for the be nice policy i will be nice
i worked for over 5 years to come up with the idea of the mechanical kalimba
look at my blog timmymontanaautomata
its is an original idea of mine
it is wrong to enter a contest with a strict alchemist idea
Thanks for posting. I have never seen your work, and I do see how it is very similar in concept to what I built. However, I'm sure you're aware that organ grinders have been using "barrel organs" for well over 100 years; now we can agree neither of us invented those.
This is merely my take on what I did, building a unit that can be re-programmed at will. This is something that the original organ grinders did not allow.
Also, Instructables isn't about original ideas, its about writing guides to build things so that other people can do so, too. I could write "How to take apart a car" and nobody can say "you didn't invent cars" or "you didn't invent taking things apart" because I didn't claim to. This doesn't need further discussion.
If you would like to comment more send me a private message. Thanks.
PS. What is a "strict alchemist idea"?
The antique one had a cylinder that appeared to be a section of limb or tree trunk. It didn't appear to be that rounded but I imagine that, if only one song is to be played, the position could be tweaked as needed. One tweaking of each peg would be enough.
If you put a strip of iron at the back of your holes, you could glue the magnets to your pegs, and need much less magnets.
Another idea that springs to mind is to put a tuned resonating chamber under each tine (or per two, to halve the number of chambers needed). That might give it some more volume.
And a last thing: did you choose your gearing such that each forth (or second or third)count coincides with a downstroke of the crank?
The gearing is not tuned to anything specific. I couldn't tell you the gear ratio, but its probably something like 20:1


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Thread: Php above or inside html?
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Php above or inside html?
My Standard practice has been to put a lot of my PHP queries before the Doctype and <head> tags on my pages. Things like <?php require_once (.... and query statements like this:
PHP Code:
mysql_select_db($database_civTekDB, $civTekDB);
$query_companyMenuRS = "SELECT id, type, category, `class`, link, approval, description FROM content WHERE approval = 'yes' AND category='company' AND class = 'subMenu' AND type NOT LIKE '%private%' ORDER BY link ASC";
$companyMenuRS = mysql_query($query_companyMenuRS, $civTekDB) or die(mysql_error());
$row_companyMenuRS = mysql_fetch_assoc($companyMenuRS);
$totalRows_companyMenuRS = mysql_num_rows($companyMenuRS);
PHP Code:
?>PHP Code:
<div id="sideMenu">
<?php include('includes/sideMenu.php'); ?>
Thanks for your input.
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You can lay out the PHP and HTML anyway you want. Ultimately its the end result that matters as well as consideration of when headers are pushed.
Output is the last thing I do. Takes more memory, but its easier to modify than simply outputting.
Been gone for a few months, and haven't programmed in that long of a time. Meh, I'll wing it ;)PHP Code:
header('HTTP/1.1 420 Enhance Your Calm');
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If you are putting up too much queries at the top of the page -- and -- you have elements that may or may not show up on the page then you should consider re-arranging the code a tad bit.
Personally, I open queries close to where I am going to use them. So if it is some kind of a widget I place the query just before the widget (or inside the widget if possible). That way it is slightly easier for me to track of stuff -- no need to scroll all the way to the top to, for example, find if $rs_newest_properties contains an is_active field. In fact, if I later find that newest_properties need to be displayed on two pages I put the queries + code in another file.
Occasions where put queries before the <!DOCTYPE> is when I need to do some (sanity) checking (which almost always involve database queries); where failure means generating a 301/302/404/500 error.
Last edited by schwarzenneger; 01-24-2013 at 06:06 PM. Reason: grammar
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rgEffects (01-24-2013)
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Thanks for the confirmation that I'm not doing something that's going to get me in trouble. It's just so much easier to keep track of the 40 or so components of this site if they are put in includes so only the ones needed show up on pages viewed.

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we didn't lose either title game b/c of our QB. assuming Revis will come back healthy we still have an excellent young/in their prime core of players. This will not be the 10+ year rebuild project in Miami.
On the video and the thread, what a reach. Rex wants his players to play physical- shocking! and Laron landry claps all the time, he was supposed to know brittle Reggie was hurt again?(funny comment since laron is always hurt). stop whining.
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A judge is accusing a Florida man of stalling in the wake of his conviction for a multimillion dollar mortgage fraud scheme in Seminole County, Orlando's WESH-TV reports. James Olivos' excuse? He's too morbidly obese to begin serving his five-year prison sentence. The 47-year-old also complained of coughing up blood, foot pains and ADHD. Judge […] [Read More]


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Sunday, February 17, 2008
The loss marked the Lady Bucs' sixth straight defeat as they left
ETSU (1-6) scored the first two runs of the morning when junior Caitlin Zyskowski (
The Lady Bucs missed an opportunity to push more runs across the plate in third. After Kate Powell (
Those two runs proved to be key at the time, because Katie Nutaitis two-run home run cut ETSU's lead to 4-2 in the bottom half of the inning. Then
After the Lady Bucs left a runner on third in the top of the eighth, the Cougars took advantage of some Gilbert's control problems. With one out and the bases juiced, Gilbert hit her third Cougar batter of the game, and scored Alexa Datko for the game winner.
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ETSU will return to action this Friday when they compete in the Chattanooga Challenge. The Lady Bucs will open the three-day five-game tournament against St. Francis at 2:15 p.m.
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MERRILLVILLE — A northwestern Indiana community is planning to turn a trash-filled former lumberyard into a new park honoring the region's unions.
Town Councilwoman Carol Miano says Merrillville recently acquired the land after she discovered it was listed on a tax sale. She tells The Times of Munster that the Lake County commissioners were instrumental in taking the land off the tax sale so Merrillville could buy it for the park project.
She says the new park will be called Union Park to honor local unions.
Northwestern Indiana Building and Construction Trades Council business manager Randy Palmateer says the union appreciates the council's decision to recognize local working families. Palmateer says he's excited about the planned park.


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IAB Annual Leadership Meeting: Day Three Highlights
The 7th IAB Annual Leadership Meeting opened with Randall Rothenberg, President and CEO, IAB, preparing attendees for the brilliant conversations and thought-provoking speakers of the last morning of this weighty event.
Jack Haber, Vice President, Global Advertising & Digital, CP Colgate-Palmolive Company, addressed the mobile marketing challenge—one of the core commitments Rothenberg made for the IAB is to unlock the value of mobile. "There is a big gap in mobile marketing," he said. Not only in terms of money, but in what marketers need and need to do to capitalize on the opportunity it presents. Mobile is an "opportunity to connect with everyone, everywhere in the world." More people have mobile phones than toothbrushes in the world. It's imperative for marketers to integrate mobile deeply into campaigns. So what's the hold up? Haber presented a top 10 list of reasons and excuses, including, "What's the ROI?," "The agency didn't put it in the plan," and "I can't afford it." Solutions he offered included agencies always including mobile in campaigns. Stop thinking of mobile as mobile; a lot of mobile usage is in the home. Stop thinking of it as a device; devices change, it's a context. It's time to re-image mobile, he said.
Darren Herman, Vice President, Content Services, Mozilla, took the stage noting that in many ways the IAB and Mozilla are not very different. The two organizations pride themselves in putting the user first. They both want transparency through trust and believe that is the only way to push the industry forward. Herman focused his talk on three of the IAB five strategic pillars he sees key to Mozilla's growth and success—Publisher Transformation, Moving Mobile Mainstream, and a Trustworthy Digital Supply Chain. Herman emphasized that Mozilla is a mission-driven non-profit and it truly can act on its mission without the need to be profit driven. They want to work with IAB and its members and extend an olive branch to the industry to work together to achieve common goals.
Then the tables turned. Attendees took to the stage to report most resonant ideas shared and issues debated in the previous day's town halls to Rothenberg, new IAB Board Chair Vivek Shah, and other industry leaders in the audience. Topics included: Quality, Trust, and Validation: Can We Prevent Big Data from Becoming Digital Advertising's Achilles Heel?; Unlocking Value: How Can the Ecosystem Fully Leverage the Mobile Opportunity?; The Programmatic Reality: How Can We Structure People, Processes, and Technology for Success?; Fraud and Piracy: Can We Fix the Open Digital Advertising Supply Chain?; and The Viewability Switch is Flipped; How Do We Do Business Now?. The major learnings from each town hall will directly inform that IAB agenda, harnessing the combined insights from everyone in attendance to create positive change for the industry.
As is tradition, The Great Debate, where industry leaders are called upon to argue tough points, closed the show. The hot button topic of the day: native advertising will fail—because of potential issues like stream blindness and the erosion of consumer trust—unless the industry can work to save it. Peter Minnium, Head of Brand Initiatives, IAB, set the tone by giving an overview of the findings of the IAB Native Advertising Task Force that are contained in the recently released IAB Native Advertising Playbook. Terence Kawaja, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, LUMA Partners, moderated the heated discussion. Expert debaters took on the following counterpoints.
The 2014 IAB Annual Leadership Meeting challenged the industry to step up and work together to solve the most critical issues inhibiting the growth of digital advertising. Attendees spoke their minds and keynote speakers inspired new ideas and ignited action—together it made for a memorable conference that will drive conversation and industry issues throughout 2014 with an eye toward 2020.
Stay tuned to this space for updates, recaps, photos, and videos as the 2014 IAB Annual Leadership Meeting commences.
IAB Announcements at Annual Leadership Meeting
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Joy In These Days
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Instant Client Downloads
Please note that Instant Client is provided under a separate OTN Development and Distribution License for Instant Client that allows most licensees to download, redistribute, and deploy in production environments, without charge. Please consult the license and your legal department for clarification, if necessary. For more information on Instant Client, see the official Instant Client site.


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Cherokee County Disc Golfers:
I picked up 6 BAG TAGS to sell for the Atlanta Area Disc Golf Bag Tag Challenge from Wookie this past weekend while out at Deerlick. They are $15.
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More information can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1713


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Features * Convenient downtown Salt Lake foothills location * Spacious 5 bedroom, 3 bathroom home * 2 miles to downtown Sugarhouse and Sugarhouse Park * 3 miles to University of Utah, zoo, and botanical gardens * Full kitchen and dining room table (seat 12) * Convenient freeway access to I-80 onramp to Parley's Canyon (to Park City) * Large yard on corner lot * Walk-out lower level * Private hot tub * 2 flatscreen TVs * 2-car garage * BBQ
Location Proximity * 02 miles to Sugarhouse Park & shops * 02 miles to I-80 freeway (to Park City) * 03 miles to University of Utah * 05 miles to downtown SLC (convention center) * 08 miles to Big Cottonwood Canyon entry (Solitude, Brighton ski resorts) * 12 miles to Little Cottonwood Canyon (Snowbird, Alta ski resorts) * 25 miles to Park City (3 famous ski resorts)
Accommodations (sleeps 2) Master: King bed (sleeps 4) Bedroom #2: 2 Bunk beds (twin/twin & twin/full) (sleeps 2) Jr. Master #3 (basement): Queen bed (sleeps 2) Jr. Master #4 (basement) Queen Bed (sleeps 2) Bedroom #5 (basement): Full bed with twin trundle (sleeps 2) Family Room: Full futon (sleeps 2) Family Room (basement): Queen sofa sleeper
Total Capacity: Sleeps 14 people comfortably in beds, 16 max
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Outdoor Amenities * Close to University of Utah & downtown SLC * Private hot tub * Large corner lot * Washer and dryer * 2-car garage * Gas BBQ
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Located east of downtown Salt Lake on Sugarhouse foothills 5 minutes' drive to University of Utah, Hogle Zoo, Emigration Canyon, and other attractions. Convenient freeway access to I-80 to Park City.
Utah's Best Vacation Rentals - Sugarhouse Foothills 5BR Vacation Home
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Cameron Canada is proud to tell viewers that this is her first time working for Throated. She is psyched to have a hard cock shoved deep down her throat, making her eyes all teary and causing her make-up to run down her face. You've got to see the size of the tongue on this blonde tattooed vixen. Her intro alone is enough to make you blow your wad but if you can hang on, this scene is well worth it. Not only does Cameron have mad suck skills, but her ass is fucking fine. She lets her face get fucked like it's a loose pussy and that gets her spit thick and stringy. She gags, she chokes, she gets throated.


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Israel is an important place in the Bible, where you will find much to remind you of biblical times in cities such as Nazareth, Golgotha and Jerusalem and the Sea of Galilee. Jerusalem is Israel's best known and biggest city and has a large number of sights. The Wailing Wall, Temple Mount and the Old City are tourist magnets. You can also visit the large number of Oriental markets or enjoy the impressive view of the city from the Mount of Olives.
Tel Aviv is the biggest city in Israel and is also the main cultural and financial centre of the country. Tel Aviv was actually the capital of Israel for a short time, until 1949, when Jerusalem became the capital. Many ministries and embassies are still situated in Tel Aviv.


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Lake Constance: Germany, Austria & Switzerland
Three countries converge at Lake Constance—Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. VBT invites you to explore them all as we follow easy cycling paths along emerald shores. Charming villages, gorgeous gardens, an island of flowers, and beautiful castles mark our way. And organic farms offer up the bounty of the earth as wines, fondues, and fruit brandies. Along the way, we pedal with ease along gently rolling hills and through the stunning beauty of the Rhine River Delta, surrounded all the while by magnificent snow-capped peaks and pristine alpine beauty. Join us as we cycle this seldom explored pocket of Europe.
Cultural Highlights
- Taste organic fruit brandy and Germany's famed beer
- Learn the history behind this lake that connects three countries
- Marvel at Reichenau's Romanesque churches
- Cycle three countries on a network of bike paths
- Cruise across Lake Constance aboard a ferry with breathtaking views
- Waltz through the riotous array of flowers on the island of Mainau
- Swim in pristine waters after a day of riding
- Savor hearty German breakfasts every day
- Stay at 4-star hotels right on our cycling routes
What To Expect
This tour offers flat to gradually ascending and descending terrain on bike paths, bike lanes and on roads in the neighborhoods and countryside surrounding Lake Constance. Some days require more navigation than on other VBT tours. The bike paths consist of both paved and gravel surfaces. Longer optional rides and some rolling hills on a couple of days offer fun for more avid bikers. Our VBT support shuttle is always available for those who would like assistance. Average Daily Mileage: 15 - 35 miles Average Cycling Time: 2 - 5 hours
Climate Information
Average Daily Temperature (°F) – Friedrichshafen Apr 55° May 65° Jun 70° Jul 74° Aug 72° Sep 65° Oct 54° Average Rainfall (in.) – Friedrichshafen Apr 3 May 3.5 Jun 4.5 Jul 4.9 Aug 4.6 Sep 3.6 Oct 2.7
What's Included:
Bicycle Tour Only – without Air
- 6 nights in 4-star hotels
- 11 meals – 6 breakfasts, 2 lunches, 3 dinners
Air Package Plus
- Roundtrip international airfare
- 8 nights in 4-star hotels
- 13 meals – 8 breakfasts, 2 lunches, 3 dinners
- Transfers
- AND the option to add our Low-Cost Trip Extensions: Pre-trip: Munich– 2 nights for only $395 • Post-trip: Zurich – 2 nights for only $495
Both Vacation Options Include
- FREE use of our custom VBT bicycle and helmet
- Service of two bilingual VBT Trip Leaders
- Daily route directions and maps
- Welcome reception with local wine and hors d'oeuvres
- Sightseeing and cultural activities
- 5% Frequent Traveler Credit to use on your next VBT vacation
- Special Good Buy Discount


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The Florida Center for Instructional Technology
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- Manuel Morales
- Mount Laurel, NJ
- United States
Artist - Researcher, Morales Studio LLC
This conversation is closed.
Is the world Super-deterministic or not?
If there was empirical evidence that showed that the world was indeed "Super-deterministic" (as defined by physicist John S Bell) thus void of free will, would you accept the evidence based on its validity or reject the evidence outright and why?
How significant would the ramifications of such knowledge affect science, philosophy, and theology?
See evidence at: http://temptdestiny.com and at: http://temptdestiny.com/science.html
Tom Preusser
Dec 2 2012: I don't know if some new Einstein will appear on the scene to ever answer this question once and for all - by the very nature of our existence one question answered leads to many new questions. But I can speak of trends. From the time of Newton up to Einstein the world was a mechanical, one equation explains all type of world - perhaps super-deterministic. Since Einstein with quantum physics, dark energy and dark matter, etc it seems the more we know the more we know we don't know. The mystical world and science have been getting closer after many years of going the opposite direction. Physicist Amit Goswami has written a book on the subject - The Self-Aware Universe. Neurosurgeon Eben Alexander who went brain dead, and revived, attests to an unbelievable world he entered while brain dead - book - Proof of Heaven. Free will implies conscious thought is 100% of the equation. If there is a mystical world beyond the conscious with which we interact (as in sleep or meditation) in unknown ways then free will is not a 0 or a 1, but somewhere in between.l
- +1
Dec 4 2012: I totally agree with your statement about finding the answer to the nature of our existence will lead to many new questions. If you visited the findings at TemptDestiny.com web site you see that this fundamental question has been addressed.
Regarding trends that you have mentioned, they all stem from lack of knowledge of causality. Currently all of what we call "knowledge", i.e., epistemology/ontology, is based on effectual causality (guessing). What I mean by that is without knowledge of how causality works, what we now call knowledge is nothing more than speculation.
Case in point: Let's say that you drop a coin "directly" into a cup; the outcome is certain, for there is only one potential selected - coin-in-cup. Conversely, you drop a coin "indirectly" into the cup by dropping the coin onto the rim of the cup; the outcome is uncertain, for there are more than one potential selected - coin-in-cup/coin-not-in-cup. By obtaining certain effects from a direct selection and by obtaining uncertain effects from an indirect selection, you now have addressed all causal possibilities.
You now observe two cups, each with a coin in them; can you tell which coin-in-cup "effect" was generated by an indirect or direct selection?
Without knowing which selection caused the coin-in-cup effect you can only make an assumption of how the effect was made. As demonstrated, if you know what "type" of selection occurred, you will know in advance if the effect of that selection is certain or uncertain for the two acts of selection predetermines both effectual states of existence.
So you see the answer to the question of "Is the world Super-deterministic" has been staring at us all along. I have found that once we change our perspective of what we "think" causality is you can't help but wonder why it has taken us (humanity) so long to see it. - See more at: http://temptdestiny.com/
REVELATION - How will this knowledge affect science and religion?
Dec 5 2012: I am trying to grasp the bottom line of what you are saying here, and the material world part of me asks what if you see the coin on the table next to the cup instead of in the cup?
Dec 6 2012: ... then you see the effect of a coin next to a cup. What caused the coin to be there is anyone's guess without knowledge of causality.
If you are referring to "How will this knowledge affect science and religion?" then consider this. Although science and religion are of different fields, they both share the same foundation/knowledge of how effects cause effects whether we are talking about a deity (effect) causing our existence (effect) or an observed or measured effect (elementary particle) bringing mass to the universe (effect). We have place causality as an effect of effects. Is it no wonder why we are so confused? ... and so the paradox of effectual causality rages on.Dec 11 2012: You said, "So you see the answer to the question of "Is the world Super-deterministic" has been staring at us all along. I have found that once we change our perspective of what we "think" causality is you can't help but wonder why it has taken us (humanity) so long to see it".
You have yet to explain your answer. What is the answer to the question and how did you arrive at it?
If you are arguing in favor of it, you have given discreetly determined beginnings and discreetly determined endings, but you seem to have gone out of your way to avoid explaining the middles as well as the before the beginnings and after the ends.
Dec 19 2012: What makes you assume that the "causal" agents of selections of potentials exist before they exist? Such an assumption would negate causality as being causal.
One final note, I am not arguing for the evidence just presenting it. The evidence stands on its own. My opinion or anyone else's is irrelevant to the facts. Hence, the term "absolute" determinism.Dec 20 2012: I am not suggesting that a causal moment does not exist before it exists. Science demonstrates that it PROBABLY does.
You are trying to present an argument that it is all mechanical (deterministic - non-sentient cause). I come from the perspective that reality is sentient down to the smallest possible thing - each being sentient while part of a larger whole that is also sentient. (multidimensional)
Hence, I see you ignoring the before the beginnings as well as how the middles relate to that first cause, and you ignore the possibility of after the ends.
So far, you have not presented evidence for your position. You presented an argument that Bell (whom you referenced) found troubling. He said that it was the only way for his theory to be wrong. But Bell's theory was proven right about 5 years ago at CERN labs.
Your evidence does not stand on its own. It is dependent upon explaining a first cause. I can provide an explanation (theory), but can you?Dec 20 2012: Bell's theorem validates Counterfactual Definiteness which relates to effectual states of QM (spin up + spin down). Hence his statement that absolute determinism would be the only thing that would predetermine such states.
You are thinking in terms of effects causing effects, common mistake. "Causal moments" CANNOT exist prior to itself in order to be causal. Think about it.Dec 19 2012: You asked, "What do you mean when you say "two causal agents"?
A: Direct selection (single slit), and indirect selection (double slits).
In the double-slit experiment, sometimes called Young's experiment (after Young's interference experiment), physicists have historically ignored the causal nature of the single and double slits as selection mechanisms. Instead, they focused on the phenomenon (wave-function collapse "effect") that takes place when an observation/measurement is made. Observation/measurement are "effects" of selections, not the cause of selections. So what we have here is the paradoxical interpretation of effects causing effects, not cause and effect.
This tiny detail is at the hart of the matter. I pointed this out in my initial findings of the Tempt Destiny experiment which is now included in the Smithsonian/NASA Astrophysics Data System: http://labs.adsabs.harvard.edu/ui/abs/2011APS..APRE13009M?Dec 11 2012: Bell did not argue for superdeterminism. He argued against it.
In his 1985 radio interview with renowned physicist Paul Davies, Bell said, "
"There is a way to escape the inference of superluminal speeds and
spooky action at a distance. But it involves absolute determinism in
the universe, the complete absence of free will. Suppose the world
is super-deterministic, with not just inanimate nature running on
behind-the-scenes clockwork, but with our behavior, including our
belief that we are free to choose to do one experiment rather than
another, absolutely predetermined, including the "decision" by the
experimenter to carry out one set of measurements rather than
another, the difficulty disappears. There is no need for a faster than
light signal to tell particle A what measurement has been carried
out on particle B, because the universe, including particle A, already
"knows" what that measurement, and its outcome, will be.
The only alternative to quantum probabilities, superpositions of
states, collapse of the wave function, and spooky action at a
distance, is that everything is superdetermined. For me it is a
His words, "there is a way" is not a statement of belief. It is the exposition of a loophole in the explanation of his famous theorem, now proven through a CERN experiment. The experiment that proved Bell's Inequality Theorem was undertaken only five or so years ago. (I think 1997).
Ultimately, there will never be a way to use a double-blind study to know if the world is superdeterministic (that your presence is absolutely meaningless) and that you are just a part of a computer program and have no part in what happens to you.
If a super-deterministic view were to go mainstream, I believe that there would be no way to put dangerous people in jail because they could reasonably argue that the computer program made them do it against their own will.
Dec 19 2012: The general assumption about absolute determinism is that it is understood to mean that all events are certain. However, evidence show that there are two causal agents, not one. This means that all events are either certain or uncertain dependent upon the type of selection made.
Direct Selection-->of one Potential-->Choice
Indirect Selection-->of more than one Potential-->Choice
Two types of causal agents-->Two types of physical states
... Occam's razor.
Dec 19 2012: What do you mean when you say "two causal agents"Dec 1 2012: (Cause)->Effect->(Cause->Effect)
Cause is assumed so effect causes effect
Dec 1 2012: Now we are getting somewhere. Which causal agent are you basing your assumption on? Evidence shows causality is a dichotomy, it s not a singularity. If you assume causality is a singular agent then you can only assume everything is a probability for effects causing effects is paradoxical.
Dec 11 2012: Evidence does NOT show that causality is a dichotomy rather than a singularity. What evidence are you referring to?Nov 30 2012: I feel like your not reading the stuff you say or what i say, could you please restate what you just said..
Cause and effect turning you head is the effect of your brain sending nerve signals from you head to the hand. Your neck turning is an effect.
Dec 1 2012: A selection is made in your mind (thought) which sets off a series of physical events that instructs the body to move the head. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veqkUUOlLLE
Dec 1 2012: yes, that is what i said, and I still think you have no idea what I am saying
Dec 1 2012: What exactly do you mean by "yes, that is what i said"? From your comments it appears your understanding of causality is based on effects causing effects instead of selection, which is causal, causing effects. Please clarify.Dec 11 2012: I watched the video, and saw the gaps in logic incorporated into it.Nov 30 2012: I believe our disconnect stems from the understanding of what is meant by "absolute knowledge" vs. "absolute determinism". This is a common source of confusion.
The coin-in-cup experiment clearly demonstrates absolute determinism (see: http://temptdestiny.com) The term determinism simply infers that a physical system behaves the same each time it is "replayed" from its original state, i.e., direct and indirect selection - same results each time. So we have only two mutually exclusive and jointly exhaustive input variables of selection (cause) which in turn predetermines the two dichotomous output variables of certainty or uncertainty (effect). If everything is either certain or uncertain (absolute) then what else is there?
With the knowledge of how absolute determinism works, we can then obtain "absolute knowledge" of a physical state by knowing which type of selection has been made. If we do not have such knowledge then all we can do is guess. However, this lack of knowledge does not imply that such knowledge does not exist for we have established that for a physical state to exist necessitated that a direct or indirect selection took place prior to the observation or measurement of a physical effect.
... think about it. For further reading on this topic please review the initial findings of the Tempt Destiny experiment at: http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Research%20Papers-Unification%20Theories/Download/3571
Dec 11 2012: Your "coin-in-the-cup" reference is not valid for your purposes within this question. That's because there is already evidence that "intent" can influence whether or not the coin lands in the cup - well beyond any reasonable statistical probability.Nov 29 2012: Due to the purely complexity (including interrelationships between separate causalities interacting and other such occurrences beyond simple a+b=c) of reality, it is impossible for us (in our current position) to prove this hypothesis; Simple tests do not prove or disprove this hypothesis, they only support or do not support it.
Being that we are the effect of a cause, we can therefore be a cause of an effect. Cause creating an effect which then acts as a cause to another effect. Another layer of effects is made by the first cause.
Nov 29 2012: So then you are saying that your body typed your words without you selecting to do so first? How curious?
No matter how much you wish to try to go around it, nothing can happen without a selection first taking place, including your choice to read my response and then choosing to respond or not. I have found that the simplicity is in the selection for there are only two types of choices that can possibly be made. The complexity you speak of comes from the paradox of effectual causality.
So the challenge I put to you is can you respond (effect) to this message without choosing to do so (cause)?
Nov 29 2012: You do not really understand what I am saying do you?
Nov 30 2012: To the contrary, you see your being as what causes effects as simple as turning your head. Yet you fail to realize that this simple act was not cause by your body. A selection was made which caused the effect of you turning your head to take place.
Mechanically speaking, our biological existence is based on our mechanical ability to select without which we cannot survive. Can't get more causal then that.Dec 11 2012: Zman - I think that Manuel does not understand what HE is saying. This prevents him from knowing what YOU are saying.Nov 29 2012: How would your world fall into fatalism?Nov 29 2012: If I'm given a choice to reject such a theory, does it not insist that such determinism is false based off of the stimulus of my senses (the most basic recognizable fact we can exhibit empirically ) indicating that I have made a choice?
The only validity we have is our sense experience and when we discount that what we are left with is the condition of servitude to the universe- we are merely robots living out our days with a fated end. BUT, it is less empirically probable that "I am a robot person" than, "I make choices everyday" based off of sense experience. It comes down to a probability and people will decide if they are fated or if they make their own fate based off of sense experience.
I prefer to trust my senses as it simply makes more sense to me that I have choices than that I don't.
Nov 29 2012: Excellant question, one that I had once thought of myself... however, as it turns out determinism IS choice. That was a tuff one for me to get my head around.
Actually, you can only choose what can be chosen sense experience or not. On top of that you have no choice but to choose in order to exist. Case in point, beginning tomorrow morning you will choose not to make a choice. This means you cannot get out of bed, move a single muscle, drink water or feed yourself without choosing to do so... and we call this free will?
Nov 29 2012: What else would we call free will? It goes like this, you either have choices that matter or you have choices that don't matter at all. The irony is that we must chose which of those sides we believe. It is prudent to utiize empiricism in shuch a case. I find the former, not the latter, rings more true. But thats because my life would devolve into fatalism if otherwise.Dec 11 2012: you said, "Actually, you can only choose what can be chosen sense experience or not."
THAT is free will.Nov 27 2012: The possibility of predetermined events can only occur when things are acting according to the "simple" laws of physics, however when biology has entered the picture a new level of complexity, which randomizes the effects and threw that the physics of none living.
And to say that it would be somehow possible to hypothesize the effect with a hugely complex predictor (maybe what he means by the universe) is possible but not likely. If this is true however it would simply mean that their is a mixed amount of data needed to know the cause and effect relationship of everything, but I would think that this would be huge in it ramifications effecting the whole of our lives.
However the awareness of our systems in order to calculate this would need to be so massive that we would need a huge leap in technology.
Nov 27 2012: Interesting how you separate physics from biology as if one is not connected to the other. Biology is physical as such cannot behave in violation of its physical existence.
Why would the assumption of a "hugely complex predicator" be required? The construction of an atom is simple compared to what it is built from it. It appears you are confusing the complexity of the effectual world with the simplicity of causality. Case in point, when I asked if you are the cause of yourself you replied yes. The problem with such a position is that implies you were never born. I am trying to connect with what you are saying but your logic fails me.
Nov 27 2012: In order for the idea that everything is predetermined to be significant we must be able to comprehend everything in the universe just as the universe understands itself. I was simply saying that in order for us to be effected by this or prove this , and assuming that it is true (the universe is purely based on causality), we must have the ability to be aware of everything, small scale and large scale. And ultimate awareness, for now, is impossible. Partly because biology make the physics of everything is a lot more complicated because we each basically have our own unique universe inside our head. This is because each our causality is on a different level of "simple" physics.
To put it simply, we don't have the ability to prove or disprove this non-argument, partly due to the sheer complexity of everything.
Nov 29 2012: You are making several assumptions based on the paradox of effectual causality, i.e., effects causing effects wherein causality comes after effect:
1. "we (effect) must be able to comprehend (causal) everything in the universe (effect) just as the universe (effect) understands (causal) itself (effect)." = effect causing effect.
2. "we (effect) must have the ability (causal) to be aware of everything (effect), small scale and large scale." = effect causing effect.
I see you bought into the size paradox having to do with our knowledge of, or absent knowledge of, causality due to size. If something can be observed or measured then we have an effect/existence of something. However, if something is too small to be observed or measured, yet such a thing truly exists, then what caused that something to existence in the first place? Size has nothing to do with our understanding of cause and effect. As you have inadvertently demonstrated, your rational is not based on cause and effect. We are all effectual beings in that we are not the cause of our own existence. As you clearly demonstrated, we inherently think in terms of effects causing effects which blinds us to causality and thus we think effectual reality is reality.
The coin-in-cup experiment at the http://temptdestiny.com home page clearly elucidates our mental blindness.
As far as your assumption of complexity preventing us from understanding this topic, if we remove our blinders perhaps its not so complex after all...Dec 11 2012: #Manuel.
Ahhh. After following this conversation this far (backwards), I now see the core problem of your view.
You said, "The problem with such a position is that implies you were never born".
The problem is that according to implications of Bell's Inequality Theorem (and Twin Slit Experiment) and even Schroedinger's Theorem, you WERE never born in an existentialist context but you were born in a localized context. This is not paradox. It is continuum.Nov 26 2012: cau·sal·i·ty/kôˈzalətē/
The relationship between cause and effect.
The principle that everything has a cause.
Nov 26 2012: So that we are on the same footing, I define an effect as any"thing" that can be observed or measured. So now ask yourself can you or any"thing" be the cause of itself?
Nov 26 2012: Yes I can act as both the cause and receive the result, life is something that is the only thing that can willingly be the cause of itself...
Nov 27 2012: So you are saying that only the existence of effects, that which can be observed or measured, can cause effects. This mindset you describe is indeed a popular one for how can nothing cause something? In other words only a something can cause a something. Do I understand your position correctly?Dec 11 2012: Yes, I can and do act as both the cause and the effect. I am a self-created identity born OF intent by an aspect of my own greater being.Nov 26 2012: It will have no lasting significance.
It is not important whether the world is super deterministic. The important quality is that the world is unpredictable.
If it could be demonstrated, that the world is super deterministic, then many philosophers and thinkers will certainly try to give this fact significance. They will question concepts such as free will, justice, responsibility, etc. People will give this "discovery" a great deal of needless attention. Then most people will realize that it will have no effect whatever on their lives. Regardless of whether criminal acts are the result of free will, society must still deal with criminal behavior.
It does not matter whether our choices are directed by free will or by a deterministic process, like the choices made by computers. Suppose someone claimed that a new machine exercises free will. If you could not predict the outputs, It would be impossible to demonstrate that the machine lacks free will.
Humans are in exactly that same situation. To all appearances we are biological machines that are subject to the laws of the universe in exactly the same way as any man made machine. People who see humans in this way understand that our choices are the result of some deterministic process. This does not free us of the necessity to make choices. Understanding that the world is super deterministic has no effect whatsoever.
Nov 26 2012: You said a mouthful with your comment, "Understanding that the world is super deterministic has no effect whatsoever." Just to name a few effects:
1. Mankind created deities in order to explain causality. Such a discovery, and by that I mean empirical evidence, would affect over one billion people in the world today.
2. The tens of billions of dollars spent on particle research would be affected since it is based on quantum mechanics not on absolute determinism.
3. A perfect (super-deterministic) input/output system would greatly affect the progress of quantum computing and nano technology.
4. DNA and biomedical research would also be greatly affected by such knowledge.
I agree with your understanding that we are biological machines in that we cannot act in violation of our own physical existence. See: http://TemptDestiny.com for more on this topic.
Nov 26 2012: 1. People of faith would not be affected. They would continue to believe that their choices come from their non-physical souls which are not limited by the laws of the physical universe. Everyone already behaves on the basic assumption that the universe is substantially deterministic, including people who say otherwise.
2. Some particle research might be affected, but the research budget hardly at all. If you are thinking that super determinism means overturning the uncertainty principle, there is no reason to think so. The uncertainty principle would still hold, but it would be seen as a limitation on what we can know and learn, instead of a fundamental property of the particles.
3. I disagree with this statement also. It is most likely the other way around, that research into quantum computing will result in the discovery of super determinism. In any event, the uncertainty principle will still have to be dealt with. The discovery of super determinism will have no affect on the outcome of past experiments, so "spooky action at a distance" will continue.
4. You may be right. It is possible that super determinism would increase research in areas other than particle physics, and DNA research would most likely be one of these.
I overstated my case, the discovery would affect some research, It would affect the thinking of people who do not fully understand its implications and limitations. Still, from the perspective of society as a whole, these affects will be extremely minor. Most people will still go about their daily lives in the same way as before. Our justice system will continue, unaffected in its actions even if the rationalization behind the actions changes slightly.
My main point is that, regardless of whether the universe is super deterministic, the universe is unpredictable. Unpredictability has huge implications, and is a far more important quality than determinism.
Nov 26 2012: 1. I agree, some people of faith will never venture out of their comfort zone of what they want to believe, others not so content, may be open to a perspective that they have not considered before.
2. The uncertainty principle is based on the assumption that everything is uncertain. Uncertainty without certainty makes uncertainty a certainty, i.e., a paradox. Absolute determinism shows that QM is incomplete as Einstein had alluded to decades ago.
3. Super-determinism has been discovered and is now included in the Smithsonian/NASA Astrophysics Data System: http://labs.adsabs.harvard.edu/ui/abs/2011APS..APRE13009M? and the manuscript can be found here: http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Research%20Papers-Unification%20Theories/Download/3571
What has been discovered is that causality is a dichotomy as are its effects and not a singularity as commonly assumed. This overlooked detail compromises all knowledge based on effectual causality for what was assumed certain or uncertain will now need to be reevaluated.
Unpredictability stems from ignorance of causality. Please review the coin-in-cup experiment at http://temptdestiny.comDec 11 2012: I don't understand how you can say, "2. The tens of billions of dollars spent on particle research would be affected since it is based on quantum mechanics not on absolute determinism." This is not a rational sentence in the context of your given conversation.Nov 25 2012: I would think that the variable of predicting causation would be too small to be comparable with reality. Especially at a subatomic scale... Right?
Nov 26 2012: Our physical capability of predicting causation at the subatomic scale is indeed a limitation. However, scale in this case is relative to our "ability" to measure which is not relative to causality.
Nov 26 2012: I thought that this whole thing was an expansion of the idea that causality determines the universe and that this was proven by a test. But regardless.
Yes everything is effected by cause and effect, the nature of the universe, however to say that everything can be predetermine(I'm assuming long before the action takes place) is not true because life acts against natural law.
Of course natural law still applies however free will can still apply under the laws of cause and effect.
Nov 26 2012: I have found that our perspective is at the root of what prevents us from understanding what we call reality. We understand our world by observation or measurement of effects and we assume that effects cause effects. The problem with effectual causality is that effects cannot also be the cause of themselves. Hence the paradox we face.
The laws that you speak of are based on effectual causality, not true cause and effect.Dec 11 2012: @Manuel: You see a paradox because you have concluded, without any evidence, that effects cannot be the cause of themselves.Nov 25 2012: My understanding is that this is merely a way to think of and to approach quantum mechanics, I'm not shure if it applies to real life because we are beings acting against natural laws, we are not merely particles.
Nov 25 2012: Are you saying that we act in violation of our own physical existence? How would that be possible?
Nov 25 2012: In a way this is a non-argument, there is no way to tell if the causation is know or created in the present, similar to the existence of god.
But we are dictated by the laws of cause and effect, every action has a reaction, but to compare our reality to the actions of particles is to compare the action of the ocean to that of the fish.
Nov 25 2012: Actually Zman there is a way to determine causation to that of reality via selections of potentials (tempt destiny experiment).Nov 25 2012: Quantum mechanics is an incredible model. This is where I hit my wall in Graduate School. However, even man's greatest models may not be telling us everything we want or need to know. How can we really understand something like that? We are making a journey to the twilight zone. How can we know? To translate something that is ssublimely mathematical in to words should always be subject to questions.
Nov 25 2012: No doubt QM has proven itself to be highly successful in predicting what we think of as reality. Question is can effects, that which can be observed or measured, actually be the cause of themselves or are there hidden variables that cause effects to exist in the first place? QM would have us believe the former rather than the later. It is no wonder why we are so confused?
Dec 11 2012: QM DOES suggest the former rather than the later. That you are so confused is the effect of your lack of understanding (cause). So do you quit learning because you were pre-determined to fail before you even began?Nov 25 2012: The world is a battleground of influences; there are so many things that shapes our perception or worldview. But influence does not mean absolute since we still have the ability to reason, and engage our emotions, and make choices.
Nov 25 2012: "... make choices." Are we free to choose what cannot be chosen is that what we call free will?Nov 25 2012: Even if the world was 'super-deterministic', as long as we don't crack its source code, we won't feel any difference in our daily lifes anyway.
And given our incapacity to understand even the 'stock-market' there is much time to come without us worrying. ;o)
Nov 25 2012: Very good point. So by your rational we need not bother to understand our reality because we don't have the mental capacity to do so?
Nov 26 2012: Not at all. Yet on certain questions we can ask we'll never know a final answer.
Nov 27 2012: True, however just because we may not know the final answer to a question does not imply that there is none. It only means we are not aware of what caused the question to begin with.Nov 30 2012: 'True, however just because we may not know the final answer to a question does not imply that there is none.'
Which does not make any difference to us, as we'll never find out about it.
'It only means we are not aware of what caused the question to begin with.'
I am pretty aware of the cause of my questions because I can not answer the meaning of my very existence to begin with. I don't even know if there is any meaning at all for me to be.
Guesswork is different from knowledge so as long I can not use the concept of 'super-determination' to calculate my very next decisions two steps ahead, it does not make any difference to me if this theory was 'absolute' right or wrong. The impossibility to proof it, makes it irrelevant to claim.
On my desk are two gummi bears. A red and a green one. Both of them can neither be seen nor touched. They are made of hyper-gum which does not interact with any force, energy or matter in this galaxy. I know that both of them exist. So what would be my point? What would be yours? None, as this claim would not make any difference in our daily lifes or knowledge... this claim was plain irrelevant.
'Super-determination' is actually nothing but the good old 'Laplace's demon' escaping the trap of blurriness and randomness of quantum theory once again. This probably makes up for the 'super' part of it... :o)
Yet even the Laplace's demon is plain irrelevant, as we won't even crack its source code as well. This is not even a matter of sheer 'calculating power', on this qantum computer may become pretty handy one day, it is a matter of the sheer number of unknown variables.
We could not even track the position of any grain of sand in a small childrens sandbox, so who sets out to do the rest of the universe? I won't, as I have to watch those silly gummi bears ... ;o)
Nov 30 2012: Interesting reply, how many of you are there? In any case, your opinion is based on an assumption that it is impossible to obtain absolute knowledge. Do you understand the mechanism that allows you to even make such an assumption? Have you ever ask yourself how you know what you know?
Your gummy bear analogy is totally illogical. You state, "I know that both of them exist. yet you also say "Both of them can neither be seen nor touched." So now you are correlating conjecture of what you think may exist with the concept of physical existence and you claim this to be knowledge? I sorry, but I find your numerous assumptions of assumptions to be more about conjecture than about logic.Nov 30 2012: You can see in me as many as you wish for.
If it is not impossible to you to obtain absolute knowledge, why is my gummy bear analogy then totally illogical?
But even without this confusing thought, you understood my gummy bear analogy absolutely right. It is illogical and nonsensical! Just as much as the 'Super-Determination' theory is. This was what I was trying to make you understand!
You claim the 'Super-Determination' to be real, yet you can't proof it. You may assume it, but this is as well conjecture and neither knowledge nor fact.
To me there is no absolute knowledge. It stems from the concept of reason within or simple minds, as we can not cope with anything beyond our imagination.
Give me a good proof that your Super-Determination is real and I will tell you the secret of the gummy bears... ;o)Nov 25 2012: To add further clarity to the central question, here is theoretical physicist John S Bell's understanding of superdeterminism as he stated in an 1985 BBC interview:
"There is a way to escape the inference of superluminal speeds and spooky action at a distance. But it involves absolute determinism in the universe, the complete absence of free will. Suppose the world is super-deterministic, with not just inanimate nature running on behind-the-scenes clockwork, but with our behavior, including our belief that we are free to choose to do one experiment rather than another, absolutely predetermined, including the "decision" by the experimenter to carry out one set of measurements rather than another, the difficulty disappears. There is no need for a faster than light signal to tell particle A what measurement has been carried out on particle B, because the universe, including particle A, already "knows" what that measurement, and its outcome, will be."
Dec 11 2012: Please be aware that the test that proved Bell right was based on entangled particles. Entangled particles are subject to different rules than particles that are not entangled. But even then, it alludes to the experiment itself being self-aware in a dimension of either non-time or another dimension of time, as does Twin Slit, as does Schroedinger.
If the photons in the Bell experiment are entangled, then they are no longer two particles, but a at least three. or are really one multi-dimensional particle (not a paradox) - the most probable explanation. One of the three aspects of the core identity is not visible from our dimension making the apparent separation a perceptual illusion explained according to individual beliefs..


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- Independent
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The Calvert County Sheriff's Office currently is investigating a scam in which citizens are being called by a person posing as a Calvert County deputy.
The caller allegedly is saying the citizen has outstanding traffic fines and is directing the citizen to acquire a money order for the fine amount. The money then is to be wired to the caller to satisfy the fines to prevent a warrant from being issued, according to an alert sent by the sheriff's office Thursday night.
Capt. Steve Jones of the sheriff's office said Monday he knows of two individuals who have been called, but no money had been exchanged.
Sheriff's office personnel do not collect traffic fines and would not request any payment by telephone, the sheriff's office alert states.
"One of the things we would never do is request money over the phone, especially in a money order," Jones said. "No money orders ever, and certainly not over the telephone."
Anyone who receives a call like this is asked to contact the sheriff's office at 410-535-2800 or 301-855-1194.


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i hope we stay fresh and clean looking, i really like what the bills did with their uniforms when they updated. so fresh and so clean clean
i hope we stay fresh and clean looking, i really like what the bills did with their uniforms when they updated. so fresh and so clean clean
I hope we drop navy from our color scheme. Navy just doesn't really fit in the Miami landscape. If they want a dark accent, then they should use black. However, I do not want to see any black jersey or pant or helmet. Keep the helmet white. Update the logo. Make the dolphin gray with aqua accents
Retro is the way to go 84 looked best
Provided we lose the navy drop shadow from our numbers i'll be happy.
I think i'd prefer if we went more of a matte material as well but I know how some people love the dazzle stuff.
I'm far more excited about the prospect of a uni change than I am for the logo. I think a new logo would be great but i'm really excited about a new uniform
You can keep both the retro and modern crowds happy by going for something simple and timeless.
The logo if updated should be simple.
Lose the navy and have white numbers with an orange outline.
Keep the sleeve stripes simple and strong.
The retro fans are happy and the modern fans are happy.
To me, the stripeless look is the BEST, classiest, most "retro" look we have ever had, it reminds me of the earliest days of Shula when the winning was so new and exciting. I like the larger helmet logos with the dolphin completely inside the sun as well.
Ryan Tannehill. Ah, what a relief. Life is good.
I couldn't agree more.
Stripeless would be a wonderful choice. It would look classic yet modern. Timeless.
The simpler the better.


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News about Mars, including commentary and archival articles published in The New York Times.
Hawaii: Nasa Test Fails
NASA's test run of a Mars landing system came to a quick end on Monday when the saucer-shaped vehicle's parachute tore away after partly unfurling high over the Pacific Ocean, a NASA TV broadcast showed.
June 9, 2015, Tuesday
MORE ON MARS AND: National Aeronautics and Space Administration , Mars (Planet) , Space and Astronomy , Pacific Ocean
Short Circuits Reported in Mars Rover's Drilling Arm
NASA engineers are diagnosing an electrical problem on the Curiosity Mars rover, which may limit the drilling of rocks.
March 7, 2015, Saturday
MORE ON MARS AND: Space and Astronomy , Curiosity (Mars Rover) , Mars (Planet) , National Aeronautics and Space Administration
Ancient Mars Had an Ocean, Scientists Say
If confirmed, the findings would lend new weight to the view that ancient Mars had everything needed for life to emerge.
March 6, 2015, Friday
Hoping to Set Sail on Sunlight
The Planetary Society announced that it would send the first of two small spacecraft testing the technology of solar sails into orbit in May.
January 27, 2015, Tuesday
MORE ON MARS AND: Sun , Space and Astronomy , Planetary Society , Space Exploration Technologies Corp , Solar Energy , Rocket Science and Propulsion , Sunlight , Moon , Jet Propulsion Laboratory , Mars (Planet)
Mars Orbiter Spots Beagle 2, European Lander Missing Since 2003
A NASA probe spotted the intact spacecraft, which had not been seen or heard from since its landing attempt and was presumed destroyed.
January 17, 2015, Saturday
MORE ON MARS AND: Mars (Planet) , Planets , Space and Astronomy , European Space Agency
'A Great Moment': Rover Finds Methane, a Clue That Mars May Harbor Life
The presence of the gas could be the result of a geological process or the product of microbes.
December 17, 2014, Wednesday
MORE ON MARS AND: Mars (Planet) , Curiosity (Mars Rover) , Methane , Science (Journal) , Grotzinger, John P
Methane and Holes on Mars and Earth
Some musings on very different methane-emitting holes on Mars and Earth.
December 16, 2014, Tuesday
MORE ON MARS AND: Siberia , National Aeronautics and Space Administration , Mars (Planet) , Methane , Space and Astronomy
The Times on Mars
David Corcoran, the editor of Science Times, details how the special section dedicated entirely to exploring Mars came together.
December 11, 2014, Thursday
Curiosity Rover's Quest for Clues on Mars
More than two years after arriving on Mars, Curiosity is climbing a mountain of sedimentary rock, reading the story of how the young planet turned dry and cold.
December 9, 2014, Tuesday
MORE ON MARS AND: Mars (Planet) , Curiosity (Mars Rover) , Geology , Space and Astronomy , Sharp, Robert P (1911-2004) , Milliken, Ralph E , Kite, Edwin S
Mars, Observed
Mars has excited imaginations at least since the Romans named it and people have been thinking and writing about it for centuries, in speeches, fiction, poetry, songs, even cartoons. Here is a sample.
December 9, 2014, Tuesday
MORE ON MARS AND: Mars (Planet) , Wells, H G , Angelou, Maya , Tyson, Neil DeGrasse , Sagan, Carl , Robinson, Kim Stanley , Reed, Lou (1942-2013) , Burroughs, Edgar Rice , Lebowitz, Fran , Reagan, Ronald Wilson , Space and Astronomy , Aldrin, Buzz , Bradbury, Ray , Dick, Philip K , Musk, Elon , Porter, Cole , Silverstein, Shel , Sykes, Wanda , Welles, Orson
NASA's Next Horizon in Space
Since New Horizons beamed back photos of Pluto, the question has loomed: What's next? More than 1,600 Times readers shared their ideas.
Mars Curiosity Rover Tracker
A selection of images from NASA's Curiosity rover as it drives toward Mount Sharp.
Marathon on Mars
Glimpses of the 11-year journey of a Mars rover.
Mars Rover's 26 Miles in 26 Seconds
Using footage provided by NASA, this time-lapse video shows the Mars rover's 26-mile journey from its landing site in 26 seconds.
28 Months on Mars
NASA's Curiosity rover has found evidence of lakes and streams on a warmer, wetter, habitable Mars.
Times Minute | Real-Life 'Goodfellas'
Also on the Minute, collecting cash in protests in Thailand and an overachieving Mars rover.
Aiming for the Red Planet
Several private companies have plans in the works for missions to Mars.
Curiosity Visits Mars
NASA's Curiosity rover landed on Mars on Aug. 5, 2012, to begin a two-year mission to examine the planet.
Curiosity Touches Down on Mars
NASA's Curiosity rover landed on the surface of Mars early Monday morning.
Rover Curiosity Lands on Mars
A NASA rover, Curiosity, landed on Mars on Monday.
Rss Feeds On Mars
Subscribe to an RSS feed on this topic. What is RSS?


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Domestic and International students need to complete:
immunization and emergency contact forms
Additionally International students need to complete:
International student
medical history record
Send completed forms to:
Student Health Center
5000 Abbey Way SE
Burton Hall Room 102
Lacey, Washington 98503
If you have questions contact the Student Health Center:
Mission statement:
Saint Martin's University Student Health Center strives to help
students transition into taking responsibility for their health and to
provide students, staff and faculty the resources to develop and
maintain healthy minds and bodies. We complement the academic mission of
Saint Martin's University and integrate faith, reason, service and
community to empower students, staff and faculty through creating an
environment in the Health Center that promotes learning, is supportive
and knowledgeable while providing health care services that are
accessible and result in a healthy campus environment.
Phone number: 360-412-6160
Location: Burton Hall Room 102
Available services:
The Student Health Center assists students with a wide
range of health issues including colds, flu and other medical concerns.
Students may also receive limited disease management for chronic health
problems. We offer flu vaccines seasonally and MMR vaccines and
tuberculosis screening if needed. After-hours hospital or emergency room
care, medical specialists, as well as dental care, eye exams, hearing
tests or X-rays are all referred locally.
Community medical resources:
For medical services not provided by the Health Center, please see our
list of community medical resources.


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Stand among mysterious standing stones, gaze upon enigmatic carvings and explore sacred prehistoric landscapes. These ancient monuments are rich with legend and provide the foundations on which our country was built.
Ring of Brodgar
This magnificent circle of upright stones is part of the Heart of Neolithic Orkney World Heritage Site.Download full itinerary
Cairnpapple Hill
This ancient sacred site is ringed by a mighty henge in which forgotten prehistoric rituals were probably performed some 5000 years ago.Download full itinerary
Jarlshof Prehistoric & Norse Settlement
On this one spot in Shetland stand the remains of homes spanning some 3,000 years of history.Download full itinerary
Kilmartin Glen
In this peaceful glen are stone circles, sheets of carved bed rock, standing stones, burial cairns and other prehistoric monuments.Download full itinerary


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When Do Giant Pandas Get Named?
It Takes a Village to Name a Dolphin
It Takes a Village to Name a Dolphin
Would You Name Your Pet After a Celebrity?
How Many Names Are Enough?
Do Tell: What Mean Nicknames Do You Call Your Pet?
Do You Know the Names of Your Neighbors' Pets?
Pet Community: Which Pup Name Is More Fun?
When You're in a Relationship, Do You Say "We"?
Do Tell: Group Names For Pets?
Will the Top 10 Dog and Cat Names From 2009 Surprise You?
Petfinder Shares the Most Common Names For Adoptable Pets


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At least these Sony hacks were good for business for someone.�On Monday, USA Network ordered to series�Mr.
When NBC's gruesome psychological horror�Hannibal�returns for Season 3, it'll bring with it a new...
Hillary Clinton's circle wants to be quoted yawning at Jeb Bush, a sure sign of concern that he could beat her in 2016.
The holidays are in full swing, which means there are plenty of parades, marathons, Christmas movies and New Year's Eve specials to check out over the next two weeks. Here's our handy list for what's planned as 2014 comes to an end. All times...
St. Bull Nick Arrives at the Farm
Sony's decision to cancel "The Interview" in the face of terrorist threats is already affecting the way Hollywood does business. It has outraged artists, killing their faith in studios to release edgy content. But it's also inspired a rare hush...
COUNTY – A form is available for families that will allow emergency responders to act accordingly with any special need if an incident occurs.
Former Penn State assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky has lost a legal battle to restore his $4,900-a-month pension, a benefit that was canceled two years ago after he was sentenced for child molestation.
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