text:
After a lot of searching on the internt, I could not find a decent drawing of a console style kickwheel for making pottery. so I made one. Measured drawings included...
Step 1: Building the base frame and seatposts
Step 3: The adjustable seat
Step 5: Drawing out the flywheel
this is a cheap trick, fit you have a center hole drilled, just poke a hole in a peice of cardboard , measure out the radius, poke another hole there, and use it like a disposable compass
Step 6: Cutting the flywheel top and bottom
use a circular saw to split the plywood into 2 4x4 sections, then cut the disks out with a jigsaw.
Step 7: Flywheel cuts
(only one shown)
drill a 1 in hole on the center of the disks, and attach the 1in floor flanges to the disks.
Step 8: Weighting the flywheel
Step 9: Finishing the flywheel
imusing a 1 inch hoe handle to aligh the disks while they are drying.
Step 10: Bolting the flywheel to the base
Step 12: Wheel head shaft and support
Step 13: Completing the wheel
the wheel head is another 10 inch disk cut from the same sheet of plywood. alternatovle, you could but a ready made aluminium disk, or use a cake pan full of plaster...
Step 14: Moose and the infernal machine
nothing left but painting...
Step 15: Measured drawings
if you have any questions ytou can contact me on facebook at Moosestudiospottery
Step 16: Measured drawings
Hi Moose! I'm very thankful for these plans. I've been reading and re-reading to try to make sure I understand everything. On step 10 does the 3" pipe nipple need to be threaded on both sides? I'm asking because I believe a pipe nipple is usually threaded on both ends, but the blow-up drawing of the flywheel construction does not show threads on both ends.
Also, since you made this a number of years ago, I'd be very interested to know if it's still working for you, or if it wore out or became unusable?
Thank you for the great instructions!
I also have pending drawigns for a plate display rack, Bottle shelves, 5 gallon bucket shelves, a plate and tile drying case and finaly a motor for the kickwheel
Jerry O.
I'm also wondering what kind of shop I might look for locally (VT) to find a good metal wheel head?
Thanks for putting this instructable up - I'm thoroughly inspired!
I made a kick wheel exactly like this (same plans) in the early 1970s. I made hundreds of pieces on it, and never had a problem. It was just a little hard to center be mounds of clay, (because it would bog down the flywheel speed) but I managed to get the job done.
I saw a similar plan set right after college and had a copy of them but never got around to building my own kick wheel.
The other plans I saw called for pouring cement into a form which sounded very difficult but do-able. I like yours much better using pavers. you could even get round pavers or edgers and get more weight.
You could even glue down old sandpaper down on the top disk to give some grip to the kick wheel.....
LOVE the set of measured drawings!!! Very clear and will be very useful!
Over all a wonderful instrucable!
(now where to find clay?........)
if you have to have clay shipped- it will be expensive, plan to buy in 1 ton (1 pallette) lots to save on shipping. If you dont want that much clay, find a club in your area, to split the cost-- if there isnt one, why its high time for sombosy to start one...
suppliers of clay are:
www.clay-king.com (best bet, loafer;'s glory, a white burning semi poceline clay)
www.bigceramicstore.com they carry everything
www.arrdvark.com I very much like thier Navaho white, but Bee mix is popluar too.
Lagua run through a distribution networlk of vendors, call them to get a dist in you area. they have a nuber oif very fine clays in all sorts of colours.
(I use Amadore, Electric Brown, Redstone, Big white and Dave's porceline from thier line)
worse come to worse, you can alway grab a shovel and a bucket and do it the hard way... (ahh, snakes, very dangerous-you go first)
seriouly, I pay about 25$ per hundred for my studio clay delivered... and Have been using Aarvark's Navaho white almost exclusivly...
I've also seen a primitive one where they use a wine bottle (with a concave bottom) buried topside down in the ground as a socket for the bottom of a wooden shaft. The upper bearing consisted of a piece of greased leather wrapped around the shaft to hold it next to a support. the kick plate was of wooden slabs fastened criss cross like a cart wheel and the top disk was also of wood.
and that goes for the wedg9ing table as well...
I dont think that would be a problem, though I would stick with black pipe for the stub (support end) of the flywheel. of course your going to need the proper sized flanges etc...(annd) you will need to order the right bearings.. use a caliper to measure the outside diametre of the pipe at the middle..
thats my problem with the 1 in pipe I got, the ends (where the threads are , are actually tapered in,- compressed slightly from when they cut the threads on the machine. so my first measurment was 1 3/16 well under 1 1/4... buuuuut.. no...
the main thing is treat the build like a giant unfinished puzzle... if it dosnt workthe first time, get a diffrent peice or beat it with a hammer until it fits....
well, i bought 1 /1/.4 bearings to start too, but coated steel pipe is just bareley over 1-1/4 and they wouldnt fit. so, another set of 1-5/16 (the next size up and they fit on with a bit of persuasion (hammering)
you dont need expensive ones, get these, theyre 15.00 each..
at the big bearing store, (plus 7.50 for shipping i think, it was 45$ for both delivered
the bottom bearing a 4 bolt flange bearing
the wheelhead bearing
onre thing i did though, i had several shafts made up or diffreent lengths, and tested them before selecting the 28 inch one, you may want to do the same, depending on your height.
if you havent seen this here I am working on my finished wheel...
send me pix of your finished wheel when your done....
im currently working on a smaller "kid sized" version, but im having to worry about pinch points and operator saftey more than I did with the full sized version...
you can email me directly at firstname.lastname@example.com if you want,
both bearings are 1 5/16. this size fits tightly on a 1 inch inside diametre plumbing pipe. (there is a error on the flywheel page)
on the sheet plan for the flywheel:
the Sheet dimensions are 8 foot x 4 foot, which is the standard size for plywood. 3/4 inch exterior grade.
on the final skinning page:
Im afraid I fudged this just a bit, there isnt enough plywood to make the front counter from a single peice of leftover wood, it instead was made from 3 seperate peices and then covered with a peice of formica I had lying around.
Ill post more errors as I correct them, and I'll repost the finished images as replacements for the ones here.
not that im trying to discourage you, it a great project... post pictutres make an instructable be famous like me(BG)
I didn't mean to belittle your wheel. On the contrary I think it's a fine set up especially for someone with only wood working tools.
of sacramento
tey sell mettal end cuts, odd shapes and half sheets of aliminiuum,steel, brass, titaniuum, and a lot of other odd stuff. Theyre in scaramento
all of the metal they sell is by weight, I bought a aluminium disk (12in diameter, 3/8 thick (laser cut) for 13.00 after tax (3.00 a pound)
also, www.smallparts.com lots off odd peices..
if you are going to used dimensional shafting, your well ahead of the pack, as my chioce of plumbing parts lead to about a month of experimentation.
if you need any help, just drop a line,
im currently working ob a pug mill and a smaller, kids version of this wheel...
among all the other stuff im working on...
Moose Makes a fish (candy jar) in 3 parts
having neither of those, I iused the tools that I had.
if I wanted to get really fancy, I could use a rasp and turn the edge but oits really not that critical... to be perfectly round... if anybody wants the drawings in 8x10 PDF, just ask.....


text:
3 Mar 2008
|"Do Y'all Still Have Some Snow Left in VT Now?"
That's the question I got from a wonderfully cheerful person somewhere south of the Mason Dixon line who had never seen snow and was calling in early March. He wanted to know if he had missed the snow this year or if there was still time left to travel to Vermont and see snow. I was happy to tell him that most years we get the greatest amount of snowfall in March compared to other months.
Most of the people I speak with are surprised to hear we get more snow in March. When they are seeing the beginning of Spring where they live, Vermont is building to a grand winter finale.
To see what I mean, take a look at Stowe Resort's five year weather history. Not only is March the snowiest (I guess that is a real word), but it's the end of the month when the largest amounts of snow are falling. The last week in March averages 32 inches at Stow, far more than any other week there.
Stowe's Snow Report shows 309 inches of snowfall so far this season, just short of the season average of 327 inches.
It's been a great year for skiing and other winter activities but don't feel that you have missed it if you have not been here yet. There is plenty of snow here for you to enjoy and more is on the way.
In fact, this is a good time of year to enjoy winter. The days are longer, temperatures are higher, and there aren't as many people skiing, snowmobiling, snow shoeing, etc. I wish more people were aware of how good it can be here in March. It would be great to see the ski areas and the Vermont's Department of Tourism getting the word out about March. I'm sure more people would come if they knew what it is like here this month.
For the more technically inclined, and maybe a few inexperienced skeptics, you can view a current snow depth map from the National Weather Service to see how much snow you can expect when you travel to Vermont or other New England states.
The areas in dark blue represent depths of 20 to 39 inches (50 cm to 100 cm), and the purple lines, which you can see run along the mountain ranges, represent 59 to 98 inches (150 to 250 cm). Those are current snow depths, not the amount that has fallen this season. The map is updated every day.
Plan a trip to Vermont and enjoy this great winter season we will continue having for the next month.
(c) 2008 Jeff Connor Grunberg Haus Inn
|Advice , General , Nature
|posted by grunhaus at 21:16 | permalink
10 Nov 2007
|Vermont Transitions from Fall to Winter
I'll make you a deal. If you spend a few hundred dollars to travel to Vermont, in exchange we will give you million dollar views that will return your investment many times over.
Here in northern Vermont, we are moving quickly from fall into winter as this photo illustrates magnificently. It was taken yesterday afternoon from the Burlington area looking east toward Mount Mansfield. This is all natural snow and on the other side of the mountain, Stowe ski resort has been busy the last couple of weeks making even more snow to build a deep base for the skiers and snowboarders. The resort opens its trails November 21.
That bump on the right side of the mountain ridge line is known as the "nose" and the larger lump on the left side is the "chin."
This photo is from "Hugho" who posts a photo every day on his Megapickles photoblog. There is a link to the blog in the left column of this Vermont Travel News blog too. You should go to his blog to see the full size version of this photo. I also recommend you spend some time poking around the archives to see the great diversity and talent on display. I look at it every day and am always rewarded with a new and beautifully rendered photo. Most of them are taken around northern Vermont with a rare foray into, for example, a nearby area such as the Kancamagus Highway in New Hampshire.
Jeff Connor Grunberg Haus Inn
|posted by grunhaus at 20:09 | permalink
10 Aug 2007
|The Great Perseids Meteor Shower
Perseids photo courtesy NASA
The Perseids (PURR-see-idz) meteor shower is going on now and is expected to peak between Sunday August 12 and Tuesday August 14 when there will be about a hundred visible meteors per hour.
This year should be an especially good time to view the streaking lights in the night sky because we will be in a New Moon period when there will be no moon visible. The best places to view the meteors are in rural locations where there is little or no light pollution from cities. A place like Vermont for instance, with the added benefit of cleaner, clearer air, plus some high elevations if you would like.
According to NASA scientist Bill Cooke, "It's going to be a great show."
The place to start looking is in a north easterly direction starting around 9:00 pm on Sunday. This is when "Earthgrazer" meteors will be approaching from the horizon and hit a glancing blow (a "grazing" type of hit, thus the name) against the earth's atmosphere. The friction will light them up like a match striking sandpaper. Earthgrazers are slower and more colorful than other types of meteors but they are rarer too.
As the constellation Perseus climbs higher in the night sky, the frequency of the meteors will increase and, at its peak a little before dawn, you will see one or two per minute.
Enjoy the show whether you can make it to Vermont or not
Sky map of the constellation Perseus courtesy of NASA
(c) 2007 Jeff Connor Grunberg Haus except the photo and map
|Nature , Unusual
|posted by grunhaus at 18:02 | permalink
28 Jun 2007
|Vermont Gardens and The Vermont Gardener Blogs
For the past month or so, I've had a link over in the left column to a blog called The Vermont Gardener. I've been meaning to write an entry about it for quite some time and now I'm finally getting around to it.
The Vermont Gardener is written by a perennial flower grower named George Africa. Or should I call him a farmer rather than a grower? Would he call himself a farmer? I know he owns a new tractor (I'm a little envious of that) and he sells the plants he raises so I think it's an accurate term but I'll have to ask him. And his business is called the Vermont Flower Farm.
It is one of the most enjoyable blogs I read and I look forward to the stories and the photographs. The only problem I have with the blog is that it makes me feel like a complete slacker. Our gardens look puny compared to his and reading the entires about the projects he has makes me want to get back to work just to keep up with him.
George has a job away from the perennial gardens but he must work another 40 hours a week around his property nurturing his perennials. His wife Gail, Alex, and Karl the wonder dog are involved with the business too.
Their Vermont Flower Farm is located about 45 minutes from us in a town called Marshfield (Google Map). I can't wait to get up there for a personal visit because the farm looks so beautiful but also because it's one of my favorite parts of Vermont and I have not traveled his road yet. The farm welcomes visitors and the plants are available for purchase or just for admiring.
The website is extensive and includes such items as tips on building a hosta garden, deer control, invasive species, building stone steps, virtual tours of the gardens from recent years, and an order form if you would like to purchase some plants online.
This is a great part of Vermont to visit. It is near the state capital of Montpelier, and not too far from Interstate 89 which you will likely find yourself on at some point in your travel here.
The town of Peacham is nearby and is one of the most photographed areas of the state. Don't miss Rainbow Sweets in Marshfield, one of the hidden gems we like to tell our guests about. I'll write an entry about them someday too but for now, trust me, you will be knocked over with the taste of their pastries. The owner is a memorable character too.
Another favorite spot of mine is the Molly's Falls Lake at Marshfield dam on Route 2 a few minutes north of Marshfield village. It's a beautiful lake undisturbed by development, surrounded by heavily forested hillsides, and it has a small parking lot and picnic area. Don't forget your camera - you will want to record your visit. You will have to double back a little bit on Route 2 to get to Vermont Flower Farm.
I'm pretty sure George must only get a few hours sleep each night because in addition to his job, his garden, his business, and the Vermont Gardener blog, he also has another blog called Vermont Gardens. Both blogs have lengthy and frequent entries.
Even though I am trying to finish the mother of all remodeling projects, I'm very much looking forward to taking some time off to get up to Vermont Flower Farm.
(c) 2007 Jeff Connor
|posted by grunhaus at 21:56 | permalink
5 Jun 2007
|June is Birding Month in Vermont
Goldfinch photo from Wikipedia
One of the things that virtually all our guests enjoy to one degree or another, is seeing the birds around our inn. We have a large window (actually seven pieces of glass) about 20 feet long and seven feet high. We have three bird feeders outside the window which are visited by a lively and colorful array of gold finches, blue jays, house finches, black capped chickadees, nuthatches, and mourning doves. We get the occasional rose breasted grosbeaks, evening grosbeaks, and orioles. Many of our guests have never seen a hummingbird and are fascinated by the flashy, iridescent ruby-throated hummingbirds which we get at the feeders all day long.
If you are a casual bird watcher like most of our guests, or even an advanced birder, Stowe Vermont and the surrounding area would be a good place to visit this month.
The village of Stowe is sponsoring "Wings Over Stowe," a month-long series of demonstrations, exhibits, walks, and films all focusing on the vast array of avian wildlife in the Green Mountains.
The website includes details about each activity, and there is a well done calendar of activities, plus a downloadable brochure with schedule, and a very helpful Stowe birding map.
(c) 2007 Jeff Connor Grunberg Haus
|posted by grunhaus at 21:18 | permalink
13 Jan 2007
|Vermont Nature Photo
An misty winter day in Vermont . . .
I have written in this blog about "Megapickles, " one of my favorite Vermont websites, where I found the photo above. It's actually a photo blog by an unamed Burlington area college professor. I have a link to it in the left column of my blog.
This spectacular photo was taken near the town of Townshend, a little north of Brattleboro in the southern part of the state. I had to reduce the size, so to get a full appreciation of it, go to the web site at Megapickles Townshend
|posted by grunhaus at 17:22 | permalink
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subset: commoncrawl


text:
Fernando Alonso reckons Sebastian Vettel's superior Red Bull is a major factor in his dominance, saying it is too early to judge the German...
Fernando Alonso reckons Sebastian Vettel's superior Red Bull is a major factor in his dominance, saying it is too early to judge the German.
Should Vettel take the chequered flag at Suzuka on Sunday, and Alonso fail to steer his Ferrari into the top eight, he will join Juan Manuel Fangio and Michael Schumacher as only the third driver to win four in a row.
"Sebastian's been dominating the last couple of years," double World Champ Alonso told reporters. "He's a fantastic driver and has a fantastic car.
"He's been close to perfection all these years, winning (three) Championships. It's true he has an advantage in car performance for this year so we'll see how good he is later in his career.
"We also saw (Lewis) Hamilton almost winning the Championship in his first year, win it in his second year and then he didn't win any more because sometimes you have the car to win, sometimes not," Alonso added, pointing to his Mercedes rival, with whom he shared a prickly relationship as McLaren teammates in 2007.
"At the moment, Sebastian is better than anyone and he's winning all the Championships. At the moment, Red Bull-Vettel are a very good combination and too good for us."
Alonso admitted he had no hope of catching Vettel this season after the Red Bull stormed to a fourth victory in a row in South Korea last weekend, carving open a 77-point lead with just 125 up for grabs from the last five races.
"If I had five races to win the Championship and I had won the last four grands prix with big margins I would not be too worried," smiled the Spaniard, Champion with Renault in 2005 and 2006. "The Drivers' Championship is almost impossible.
"(Red Bull) work better than the others - there's nothing more to explain. We are here to race. We were quite competitive the first part of the year. We won two grands prix of the first five and then we started producing new parts of the car which were not working so good.
"At the same time Red Bull were working maybe better than us and they have a big advantage now. It's the only explanation we can find. They progressed a lot during the Championship and we didn't."
Alonso will be joined at Ferrari in 2014 by Kimi Raikkonen, returning to the team where he won the 2007 title, and he voiced hope the dream line-up could break Red Bull's vice-like grip on Formula One - if improvements are made.
"For next year with Kimi I think we can have a very good Championship for Ferrari," he said. "If we have a competitive car we will do very good things. If we don't have a competitive car it will be very similar to this season I think.
"Fighting for second in the World Championships is obviously not a happy goal but there are another 22 drivers worse off.
"In the remaining races it's important we try to score as many points as possible. We'll try to attack all the time and fight for second in the Constructor's Championship.
"There are very few points between us (284) and Mercedes (283) so we need to keep improving."


text:
The U.S. Supreme Court wades into the national debate over same-sex marriage on March 26 and 27, when it hears a pair of cases challenging state and federal laws that limit the definition of marriage to unions of a man and a woman.
See images from the Supreme Court
At issue in the first case is whether California voters violated the U.S. Constitution when they amended the state constitution so that "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California. The other case challenges the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which requires the federal government to deny benefits to gay and lesbian couples married in states that allow same-sex unions.
The issue of marriage equality has particular importance for older gay and lesbian couples. The plaintiff in the challenge to DOMA, for example, is Edie Windsor, 83. After her same-sex spouse died, the federal government refused to recognize their marriage in taxing Windsor's inheritance.
To help you make sense of it all, we've broken down the issues into the following questions and answers.
Why would the Supreme Court's rulings be especially important for older couples?
In many ways, DOMA's definition of marriage applies to more than 1,000 federal laws and programs. Many of the benefits denied by DOMA are in place to protect older people from economic insecurity in the face of serious illness or the death of a spouse.
What's a specific example?
Consider Social Security benefits for spouses. If one spouse in a heterosexual marriage works and the other doesn't, the nonworking spouse still receives Social Security benefits — 50 percent of what the working spouse receives. Same-sex couples are denied those benefits.
Wasn't the "spousal benefit" put into place to protect spouses who stay at home to raise families?
Yes, but many same-sex couples raise children. If one spouse doesn't work, he or she receives no spousal benefit.
And the same is true for Social Security survivor benefits?
That's right. If a working spouse in a heterosexual marriage dies, the nonworking spouse receives the partner's full Social Security benefits. A surviving spouse who earns less in Social Security automatically qualifies for the deceased spouse's higher benefit. Even ex-spouses qualify — as long as the couple is a man and a woman.
Does the IRS recognize same-sex marriages?
No. As far as federal tax law is concerned, there are only heterosexual marriages.
How does that affect filing taxes?
Same-sex married couples typically have to create two sets of income tax returns: one for the state, which recognizes their marriage, and another for the federal government, which doesn't. They often have to pay more in taxes, as well. When an employer extends benefits such as health insurance to a heterosexual spouse, for example, the value of those benefits is not taxable. Same-sex spouses must pay taxes.
And when a same-sex spouse dies?
Property passes automatically to a surviving spouse in a heterosexual marriage. Not so for same-sex couples; many must make complex and often expensive legal arrangements to ensure that decision-making and inheritance pass to a surviving spouse. And even then, the taxes are heavier. A heterosexual spouse who dies can leave assets, including the family home, to the surviving spouse without incurring estate taxes. A same-sex inheritor is taxed just as a stranger would be.
Is that the issue at hand in Edie Windsor's challenge to DOMA?
Yes, it is.


text:
This conversation is closed.
Is economics a science aimed at deceiving people?
I recently heard in the news that Spain faces an imminent economic ruin, because statistically there are going to be lots of elderly people who are unproductive. This devastating message was announced by some highly educated economist.
Am I alone in thinking that a large pool of potential customers is an opportunity rather than a threat? In my view the senior citizens are a blessing to the economy. Younger people will find lots of employment in extending their loving care to them, particularly to those without a family. Elderly people need to be looked after by doctors, physiotherapists, entertainers, they will want to travel and to play etc etc and they have their retirement pensions to pay for all these things.
I believe that economists are either spun out as not to be able to think reasonably or that they disseminate false statements on purpose to further oppress the population at large. Judging by their looks, the latter is the case.
Another good example of how economists bend the reality to serve their cunning aims, is how they insist that at the time of mass unemployment, the retirement age should be ... extended! In other words economists propose that where there is a shortage of jobs, those jobs which could be made available, will not be available. Is that standing the world on its head or what?
John Smith
Jan 15 2013: Economics is not a science. It simply doesn't meet the requirements of empiricism, falsifiability and self-correction. There are economists out there who work scientifically but the field as a whole is not scientific.
- +2
"Another good example of how economists bend the reality to serve their cunning aims, is how they insist that at the time of mass unemployment, the retirement age should be ... extended! In other words economists propose that where there is a shortage of jobs, those jobs which could be made available, will not be available. Is that standing the world on its head or what?"
In the world of economics natural resources are endless, like manna from the heavens, so economists are surprised when all those unemployed "lazy bums" don't go to work and produce more stuff (though some unemployment in the West is caused by the Chinese working 60 hour work weeks). The rate of automation has surpassed the rate of learning how to make more crap per liter of petroleum, but since most economists wouldn't know the difference between a protein and a photon, they don't understand what's going on and start pulling bogus explanations from their behinds.
Mike Colera
Feb 15 2013: I am having a problem getting past the "economics is a science" statement. When I hear economists talk, I have that feeling it is Sunday Morning and a TV evangelist is berating our behavior and condemning us to hellfire and damnation.
- +1
Where I get really confused is when economists speak with the certainty of a raising sun that next year the entire money future will better or worse and my weatherman can't tell me if it will rain this weekend. At least meteorologist are honest to say that the best they can do is guess.
Gail .
Jan 18 2013: Most economists believe their own lies to self. If they saw the horror of what they espouse, they would crawl into a corner and die of shame.
- +1
Jan 18 2013: most economists do crawl into a corner, and work on some insignificant mathematical model of a subarea of a subarea. or try to theoretise marketing and branding.
René Dupart
Jan 16 2013: Well yes it certainly is a science.
- +1
It is the lack of insight into human behavior what makes economic models so far off these days. Some of the mechanisms that have been discovered and established over the past centuries are quite astonishing, but with the component of individual preferences remaining not fully uncovered yet, a model can never be entirely accurate.
Economics deals with the allocation of scarce goods and once we know and apply individual preferences in models by means of recent developments such as Agent Based Modelling tools, it can become more precise in its predictions and serve society a whole lot better.
Don't forget it's merely half a century since the first economist abandoned the concept of the homo economicus and started to embrace psychological insights. Once we make more progress in this field and put ABM models to use, economic policy becomes more rational in a world of irrational individuals, with all their biases, framing and other limitations. That includes myself of course.
Scientists like Samuel Bowles or Daniel Kahnemann have done some great work in this field and it would be just wrong to disqualify their works as not being scientific. Austrian or Keynesian, is does not matter a great deal what you prefer, because the outcomes of the ideology can only be theorized. In fact I have been supportive for both theories sequentially, but truth is that there does not exist a rational individual in this world and only a model where this can be included can make a sound prediction for future policy. So lets not waste time over this by having discussions about that topic. You can Google it and read for days about this same discussion, perhaps among even more educated economists than ourselves.
Now, let's move forward before a whole generation gets stuck in a life of indebtedness.
Jan 16 2013: "It is the lack of insight into human behavior what makes economic models so far off these days. Some of the mechanisms that have been discovered and established over the past centuries are quite astonishing, but with the component of individual preferences remaining not fully uncovered yet, a model can never be entirely accurate."
This is true of all social sciences, the difference is psychologists and sociologists, no matter how flawed they are, at least try to improve as a whole: economists on the other hand seem to have a hard time criticizing traditions and accepting new research. It is no coincidence economists are so much more bitterly divided than psychologists and sociologists.
Fritzie -
Jan 16 2013: Rene, did you mean half a decade or half a century since the first economist began to consider psychological/behavior insights to qualify or extend rational actor models? This was certainly part of higher level economics education in the 70s and Herbert Simon won a Nobel prize in the 60s, I believe, for his work on bounded rationality.
- +1
The Samuel Bowles I have read published his best known work in the early or mid 70s.
Jan 16 2013: Thank you kindly for pointing that out Fritzie. It was my intention to refer to half a century ago and I'm confident we've read the works from the same Samuel Bowles.
Jan 16 2013: You can go back up and edit, Rene, so you don't accidentally confuse people with "half a decade." While there is much yet to learn in economics as a discipline to improve its practical use, people without a lot of background in the subject typically think economics is more backward than it is, I think.Jan 16 2013: austrian economics treats human psychology as a terra incognita, which it pretty much was a few decades ago, but still manages to draw useful and meaningful conclusions. simply put, we do not need to know how the mind works in order to build a sound theory of economics.
Jan 18 2013: It is still terra incognita. The psychs would have you believe otherwise but that is just a charade, aimed at enslaving the slightly less than vigilant for financial gain. The results of the psychs speak for themselves, they have as much comprehension of terra incognita as I do where the salad fork goes.
Fritzie -
Jan 15 2013: Economists do not agree with each other, so one can seldom say that economists believe or argue one thing or another. Some economists argue one thing and some another.
- +1
I don't think one can say generally that "they disseminate false statements on purpose." I think economists can come to wrong conclusions and often do, because prediction is complex in social systems.
So no, economics is not a science and is not aimed at deceiving people.
John Smith
Jan 15 2013: "I think economists can come to wrong conclusions and often do, because prediction is complex in social systems."
- +1
That's the difference between the scientist and the economist: if you ask a meteorologist whether it's going to rain on 16 October 2019 he will tell you he cannot make that prediction, when you ask an economist whether the stock of Microsoft will go up on 16 October 3019 he will give you a 30 minute explanation of why exactly Microsoft stock will go up or down on 16 October 3019.
Jan 15 2013: That's not my experience at all. Both scientist and economist know the limits of prediction, particularly prediction far out into the future, or far outside the range of the data they use to establish the values of the parameters in their models.
Jan 16 2013: It is my experience: economists think they are gods, they don't rationally take into account the error margin of a scenario, they're like the political pundits who got the election wrong, they'll just make up some excuse of why their predictions were wrong and then proceed to make new predictions of things that are far too uncertain for anyone to make.Jan 16 2013: These are stereotypes you may hold that you would find it hard, I think, to support with actual evidence.
Jan 16 2013: Damn right it's a stereotype, not all economists are like that, some dare to say "I don't know", others even do actual research to see if long held beliefs have any basis in reality, but too many in high places do fit the stereotype.Jan 16 2013: Thank you, John, for qualifying your original statement.Jan 17 2013: Just curious, Jarek- you write that 'judging by their looks", "they disseminate false statements on purpose."
I am trying to understand this statement.
I am also curious whether you ACTUALLY think that economics as a discipline is aimed at deceiving people. If so, what other disciplines do you believe are aimed at deceiving people?
Jan 18 2013: Fritzie, the economist's looks - those who appear in the media - suggest that they are well educated, intelligent people capapable of understanding the fallacy of their own statements.
When I suggested in my post that economics is a science aimed at deceiving people, I did so in order to pique and provoke a chance viewer. In fact I believe that economics is as neutral and innocent as any other branch of social sciences as long as it is not hijacked by a certain class of people in order to lead by the nose another much more populous class of people :-)
In aswer to your last question, I would say that all money/trade etc related disciplines are prone to be dishonestly employed which is not the same as to say that was their original raison d'etre.
Jan 18 2013: Thank you. That is what I suspected you actually thought.Jan 17 2013: John - I did find Ricardo discussing wages in a two hundred year old two or three page paper in a 55 year old book with brief philosophical papers Pretty accurate paper. What has bothered me about some economic theory is that I am a former physics guy who remembers thermodynamics. Of course, we can see problems if we know things from other science departments or other colleges.
Jan 17 2013: George, I don't understand this sentence: "What has bothered me about some economic theory is that I am a former physics guy who remembers thermodynamics." Perhaps it is because I have not myself taken Stat Mech?Jan 17 2013: I am not an economist and really know very little about it. It would appear that the two major economic theories (Austrian ansd Keynesian) support a political approach. One supports big government and entitlement programs and the other does not.
The real threat is that the bottom line is being ignored. If stripped to the bone what is the purpose. Economics is the social science that analyzes the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services. It is a measuring tool.
To be of value it must be capable of being applied against something ... that something is usually the trade balance and the countries debit.
Our current national debit is 100% of our GDP. That cannot possiably be a deception .. that by any other name is a giant RED FLAG.
A different perspective would be that if your bills were 100% of your take home pay ... how would you eat. No cheating here pay your bills.
If used properly then I see econimics as a tool or a guide to the finicial health of the nation. It is the same as the bank statement that you and I receive each month ... it says we are managing our assets well or we are not.
The problem is that by smoke, mirrors, and political objectives we are being told that even though we are broke and getting "broker" everything is alright.
Economics, to me, is really quite simple ... if ya ain't got it ... ya can't spend it. As Barron Von Richthofen said ... "everything else is rubbish."
You want to solve the problem. Really. Kick out all of the "expert" economists and put a couple housewives that struggle every month to make ends meet by doing the simple math of survival and all of this crap would be gone.
I wish you well. Bob.Jan 16 2013: economics is a discipline aimed at deceiving itself.Jan 16 2013: wow, that is definitely a new level of keynesian economics. you should be the chairman of the fed. no, seriously. keynesian economics is a huge system of doublethink. you need to believe in contradictory statements at the same time, you need to accept nonsensical or clearly false statements or double standards on regular basis. but your idea extends keynesian economics in a huge way. and in a way that is completely compatible with it in its logic, but contradicts it at the same time. so nice job.
except it is false. it is false even in keynesian economics. and keynesian economics is false itself. your idea is false in keynesian economics, because they state that the aggregate demand pulls the economy. it does not matter who has the demand. state could also spend the same sum, so the existence of retired people don't help at all. more like they are a hinderance, because the bastards might decide to save, which is a problem in keynesian economics.
but the true problem with it of course is that keynesian economics is false. demand does not pull the economy. not any more than the cart pushes the horse.
Jan 16 2013: This reads as the muslim pot accusing the christian kettle of having no evidence to support the divinity of Jesus Christ.
Jan 16 2013: this is supposed to be an argument, or you are just letting out the steam?Jan 16 2013: Good John. Also, Jarek these people often have agendas. Employers often want to lower wages and advocate immigration to do that and other things that the rest of us may not want. There are many expenses associated with kids so we shouldn't just pick on the old people. In America the schools are broke, but Social Security has historically been viewed as an account from which money can be borrowed - sounds like a political agenda unless you trust politicans more than I do.
John Smith
Jan 16 2013: It's not that economists themselves have a vested interest in supporting big business, but the people who wrote their textbooks and invented the theories did. It's really striking how much economists accept for facts when there has never been any research to support it, or worse, when the research that does exist points to the contrary. In science you can't get away with that, in economics you ca, there is so little self-correction in economics.
- +1
When an economics textbook says "human beings always try to maximize material profit in their interactions" this applies to the sort of people that go into economics or big business, but not the general population, still this assumption was penned down without any research into it having been done and now that there has been some research to the contrary, that research is flatly ignored.Jan 16 2013: A science by definition is something that can predict things, economics is a science to that degree. The Austrian school is 100% at predicting therefore very much a science.
The Keynesian s on the other hand are not only not a science but pure propaganda that give the subject a worser name and are very much used by politicians to manipulate people.
Here is an example of a Keynesian of the worst order:
Jan 16 2013: Austrian economics is actually the worst, Keynesian is not a science either, but Austrians are the worst: they don't use math, they don't accept evidence that contradicts their views, they don't even go looking for such evidence. They're a religion.


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How to Talk with Someone Who Is Being Abused
Guidelines for Co-workers
"I think one of my co-workers may be experiencing domestic violence…What should I do?"
You might feel awkward bringing up domestic violence with a co-worker. That's a natural reaction. And you don't want to put her on the spot if she's not ready to talk. But you can let her know that you support her.
If your co-worker has unexplained bruises, or explanations that just don't add up, if she is distracted, has trouble concentrating, misses work often, or receives repeated, upsetting telephone calls during the day, she may be with an abuser.
Many people hesitate to speak with women who they think are being abused because they don't quite know what to say, or how to say it. Relax and be yourself and you'll automatically communicate what's important: your concern.
You may hesitate to get involved because you see domestic violence as a personal matter. But many women find it hard to ask for help, especially when they have reached out for help in the past and been blamed for his violence instead. Most women who are abused who are offered help deeply appreciate it, even if they don't say so. For many women, it takes a lot of time, planning, help, support and courage to escape an abuser. In the meantime, it is important for women to know that help is available from people who care about the situation. Knowing that people are out there offering support makes it much easier for women to explore their options.
So if you know someone who is being abused, there are many things you can do that will make a real difference.
There are lots of ways you can tell is something is wrong. Perhaps your co-worker often has unexplained injuries. She may appear anxious, upset or depressed. The quality of her work may fluctuate for no apparent reason. She may also be receiving a lot of harassing phone calls or faxes. She may become upset when she gets calls from her husband or boyfriend. Or she might miss work, due to frequent medical problems and fears about leaving children at home alone with the abuser.
How can you lend a hand? (How can you support her?)
· Establish a rapport with her if you don't already have one, so that she feels comfortable talking with you and not put on the spot.
· Listen, without judging. Often a woman who is abused believes her abuser's negative messages about herself. She may feel responsible, ashamed, inadequate, and afraid you will judge her.
· Let her know that you care about her. Tell her she is not responsible for his abuse. Explain that physical violence is never acceptable. There's no excuse for it – not alcohol or drugs, financial pressure, depression, jealousy, or any behavior of hers.
· Make sure she knows she is not alone. Millions of women of every age, race and faith are victimized. Emphasize that when she wants help, it is available. (Call Mid-Valley Women's Crisis Service at (503) 399-7722 or toll free 1-866-399-7722).
· Explain that domestic violence is a crime – as much of a crime as robbery or rape—and that she can seek protection from the police or courts, and help from a domestic violence advocacy program. Give her phone numbers she can call for help, support and referrals.
· If you want to talk with someone yourself to get advice, contact a local domestic violence program. They can help you figure out what is best to do in your situation.
· Many women remain with their abuser, and try to get help for them. Remember that, for many women, separating from an abuser is a process, not an event, and takes time. Realize that often the most dangerous time for a woman is when she is in the process of leaving, or has left the abuser.
· Respect the co-worker's boundaries and privacy, even if you disagree with the decisions she is making regarding the relationship. A survivor of domestic violence may make numerous attempts to leave the abuser. Be patient and understanding.
· Encourage her to call a domestic violence hotline or the Employee Assistance Program to get help developing a safety plan.
· She may also want to consider telling her doctor or nurse about the violence, asking him or her to document the abuse in her medical records and take photographs of her injuries. Suggest she store them is a safe place, along with a written description of what happened. These records may be helpful to her if she decides to take legal action in the future.
What if she decides to leave?
If she decides to leave her abuser, she may need money, help finding a place to live, a place to store her belongings, or help getting to a shelter. The most important thing you can do is help her think about developing a safety plan, which includes setting aside money and important documents in a safe place and making a plan to increase her safety. Domestic violence advocacy programs can help. Also, make sure she knows about all of the safeguards and assistance that the workplace can offer her, which might include security escorts to her car, priority parking near the building, temporary assignments in other locations, or time off from work.
Regardless of her decisions or actions, respect confidentiality in all your discussion with her.
Based on "Work to End Domestic Violence" Family Violence Prevention Fund


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Honors Program Faculty
Honors program faculty are drawn from across Westminster's many departments, programs, and colleges. Honors faculty participate in the program because they enjoy teaching challenging students, they find interdisciplinary approaches to their subjects satisfying, and they value the excitement that team-teaching provides.
The Honors program typically employs only full-time faculty members with a significant amount of teaching experience, especially those known for their teaching excellence. Indeed, the college's most prestigious award for faculty--the Gore Excellence in Teaching Award--has gone to an Honors faculty member on many occasions. In fact, Professor Nick More was named Utah's Professor of the Year for 2008 by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching.
Honors professors are some of the most interesting, active, and accomplished faculty on campus. They especially enjoy passing on their passion for learning to Honors students. They include professors like, among many others:
Bonnie Baxter (Biology)
A geneticist who studies halophilic organisms in the Great Salt Lake, Bonnie has received the Governor's Medal for Science and Technology for her work. She was also named by Salt Lake Magazine as one of five "Women Changing Utah" and is the director of the Great Salt Lake Institute.
Russell Costa (Honors / Neuroscience)
Russ utilizes approaches from cognitive psychology and cognitive neuroscience to study the dynamic control of attention, especially as it relates to task-switching. In his classes, he explores the role of science in society, particularly issues concerning the methodology, ethics, history, and philosophy of the social, behavioral, and brain sciences
Nick More (Philosophy)
An expert on the work of Nietzsche, Nick received Westminster College's Excellence in Teaching Award in 2007 and was named Utah Professor of the Year in 2008, for which he was honored in Washington, DC. The Excellence in Teaching Award is the most prestigious award made at the college's graduation ceremony, given to Westminster's top teacher. His book on Nietzsche's Ecce Homo is forthcoming from Cambridge University Press.
Jeff McCarthy (English & Environmental Studies)
An avid mountaineer and ice climber, Jeff's new book, Contact: Mountain Climbing and Environmental Thinking, explores our changing attitudes towards mountains and the natural world. He also chairs Westminster's Environmental Studies program.
Karlyn Bond (Music)
Accomplished pianist Karlyn Bond first appeared as a soloist with the Utah Symphony Orchestra at the age of twelve. A founding board member of the Intermezzo Chamber Music Series in Salt Lake, Karlyn has a compact disc entitled "Piano Classics from the World of Jane Austen."
Richard Badenhausen (Honors)
Richard's 2004 book, T. S. Eliot and the Art of Collaboration (Cambridge UP) was called by one critic "...perhaps the most interesting critical study of Eliot in a decade." A former board member of the National Collegiate Honors Council, Badenhausen has directed Westminster College's Honors program since 2001. He received the college's Gore Excellence in Teaching Award in 2014.
Jeff Nichols (History)
An expert in Western History, Jeff received the 2007 Charles Redd Center Award for best general interest article in the Utah Historical Quarterly for his article "The Boss of the White Slaves." He sits on the advisory board of the Utah State History Records and the Museum of Utah art and History. He is the author of a well-regarded book on Salt Lake City history.
David Goldsmith (Geology)
One of Stephen Jay Gould's last Ph.D. students at Harvard University, Dave specializes in Evolutionary Theory and Paleontology. He is also Assistant Director of the Honors program.
Michael Popich (Philosophy)
Founding director of the Honors program, Michael is an expert on the Holocaust, Genocide in Africa, and Violence in the Middle East. He sits on many advisory boards devoted to these and other topics in the Humanities.
Lance Newman (English)
Lance received his Ph.D. from Brown University and is the author or editor of three scholarly books on American and British Romanticism. He is a widely published poet and a long-time river rafting guide. His most recent book is The Grand Canyon Reader (University of California Press).
For a full listing of Honors faculty click here.


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Ana takes on world No.2 Victoria Azarenka in the fourth round of the US Open on Monday. It will be the seventh meeting between the pair, with the Belarusian second seed leading the head-to-head series 4-2.
They most recently met in Carlsbad last month, when Azarenka triumphed 6-0, 4-6, 6-3. The 24-year-old has had the better of their clashes at Grand Slams, winning both in straight sets but on hard courts they are tied at one win apiece.
Both players struggled in round three, Ana recovering from a set and 5-4 deficit against Christina McHale, while Azarenka lost the opening set against world No.28 Alize Cornet, before storming back to eventually triumph 6-7, 6-3, 6-2.
Speaking after her win over McHale yesterday, Ana looked forward to the occasion of taking on the world No.2.
She said: "I really want to play against the best and challenge myself, because I'm ready to take them on. I had close match with Vika and close match with Li Na. I really look forward to this opportunity.
"I was really close in San Diego, I felt. I have a game that can challenge the top players. I look forward to that opportunity.
"That's why I'm also very happy to pull through matches like this. Now I have day also to recover, recuperate, get ready for that match.
"It's going to be tough, no matter. But I really want to take on that challenge as a positive thing."
The match is scheduled as the second of the day on Arthur Ashe Stadium and is set to begin sometime after 12.30pm local time (6.30pm Central European Time).
Click here for live point-by-point scoring from Flushing Meadows.
Photo: Manuela Davies / doubleXposure.com
Print photos of Ana taken at the US Open, including that shown here, are now available for purchase here


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Tickets purchased online will be available at the Will Call window.The Zoppè Family Circus welcomes guests into the intimate 500 seat tent for a one-ring circus that honors the best history of the Old-World Italian tradition. Starring Nino the clown, the circus is propelled by a central story (as opposed to individual acts) that feature acrobatic feats, equestrian showmanship, canine capers, clowning and plenty of audience participation. Giovanni Zoppè, the sixth-generation circus performer who plays Nino, says the show aims higher than what passes for circuses these days. 'We try to touch every emotion during the show,' he says. 'They'll laugh, they'll cry, and they'll feel for the characters. It's more of an event than a show.' Online Sales Include a $2 Convenience Fee. NO REFUNDS. NO EXCHANGES.
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You're determined to never miss a moment of any Bucks game! You find yourself scrambling to make sure you watch every minute of the game. Keep track of the time with Bucks pride by wearing this Teamwork pantone watch. This adjustable timepiece features a team logo on the face, PVC bands, and a lockbox to keep it safe in. Rock carefree style while watching the next Milwaukee game when you sport this super stylish watch.
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CLINTONVILLE - Officials in Clintonville, Wis. are struggling Tuesday to find the answers to the mysterious booms that have rocked the city.
Those intense sounds that shook homes and household items continued into Tuesday morning.
"Everybody out there in radio-land should think hard about what it could be, and feel free to help," joked Clintonville City Administrator Lisa Kuss, who talked with Newsradio 620 WTMJ.
"Today, we are going to look back at some additional things in the water utilities. We're also going to talk to the engineers to further look at some geological things."
Kuss tells us that the second evening and early morning of these unexplained explosion-like sounds came in a pattern.
"Starting at approximately 8:00 p.m. last night, there were more rumblings and sounds coming into the same neighborhood. It occurred at 8:00 p.m., 10:00 p.m., then again at 12:00 a.m., 1:00 a.m. and 2:00 a.m.," said Kuss.
"Last night, at 9:50 p.m., it was loud, like get-your-heartbeat-racing loud."
Police received about 150 calls about the booming sounds Monday morning.
Kuss told us that the area where the sounds are coming from grew on the second night.
"The calls seemed to be coming in slightly further south and west than the quadrant that we had yesterday."
One expert theorized that thawing ice underground could be the cause.
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13 April 2010
Posted in Dr. Ying Competition
For a second year in a row there was a three-way tie for first place at Dr. Ying's Student Science Competition. Shiv Gaglani, a senior from
Their entries inspired Dr. Nelson Ying so much that instead of splitting the prize money three ways he provided additional funds so each winner took home the same amount of prize money. Richard's entry explored the structure of the universe, which could help validate current scientific theories as well as lead to advancements in telescopes plus provide answers to questions about the birth and eventual collapse of the universe. Daniel's project used computer wave simulations and physical models to identify wave patterns that could be used to predict hurricanes and tsunamis.
This year Shiv also became the only participant to ever win the Ying competition three years in a row. His research project isolated genes that could cause neurogenetic disorders like schizophrenia or attention deficit disorder. His findings could ultimately lead to new diagnoses and treatments of these disorders.
This year's Dr. Nelson Ying Student Science Competition will mark its 12th year in collaboration with the


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Playgrounds, daycare centers and schools: every parent hopes these are safe places, where children can flourish and grow. Unfortunately, pesticides used in and near schools and playgrounds can make children an unintended 'frontline community,' exposing them to dangerous chemicals just when their developing brains and bodies are especially vulnerable.
Parents, communities and organizations around the country are finding ways to make schools safer for growing children. Progress includes pesticide use reduction in school buildings, buffer zones to protect children from spraying in nearby fields, and support for safer pest control methods in and near schools and playgrounds.
From the moment the morning school bell rings, children face a number of exposure risks. Pesticides can settle on desks, books, counters and walls. Children – and teachers – breathe contaminated air or touch contaminated surfaces, unknowingly exposing themselves to chemical residues that can remain in the school environment for days.
In rural areas, pesticides often drift into schoolyards from nearby fieldsOf the 40 pesticides most commonly used in schools, 28 are probable or possible carcinogens, 26 have been shown to cause reproductive effects, 26 damage the nervous system, and 13 can cause birth defects.
In rural areas, pesticides often drift into schoolyards during and after applications on nearby fields. PAN's Drift Catcher has been used in communities across the country to document pesticides in or near school grounds.
Young children explore the world in very hands-on ways. Pesticides used to coat the wood of playground structures, keep landscaping tidy or fields weed-free can end up on small fingers - which often end up in small mouths. A young child's common hand-to-mouth behavior is well known to increase risk of pesticide exposure.
Communities across the country are confronting this risk to young children head-on, demanding safer play environments. In the Pacific Northwest, sevearl cities including Portland, OR and Seattle, WA have mandated pesticide free parks and playgrounds.
Pesticide use on playing fields has raised concerns among families and environmental health advocates nationwide. The National Coalition for Pesticide-Free Lawns notes that "the common, everyday practices used to maintain our children's playing fields are unintentionally and unnecessarily exposing them to carcinogens, asthmagens, and developmental toxins," and calls for a shift to organic turf management on playing fields across the country.
Communities are demanding safer play environments for children
Calls for Synthetic turf, touted by advocates as a "solution" to pesticides on playing fields, has actually raised other serious health concerns. The U.S. currently has about 3,500 synthetic playing fields made of various materials, including nylon and polyethylene, and about 800 are installed each year at schools, colleges, parks and stadiums, according to the industry's Synthetic Turf Council.
Pigment containing lead chromate is used in some surfaces to make the turf green and hold its color in sunlight, potentially exposing children and others using this turf to lead. Studies have also raised deep concerns about exposure to lead and other toxins from the crumb rubber infill used in many synthetic turf fields.
Thirty-six states now have school pesticide regulations, and pioneering districts across the country are developing least-toxic pest management approaches. A few examples:
In 2009 EPA released a plan encouraging all public schools to adopt Integrated Pest Management by 2015. Experts calculate the approach could reduce school use of pesticides by at least 70%. Unfortunately, EPA's plan is a set of guidelines rather than a directive, and no funding to help schools switch from conventional pest management. The Schools Environmental Protection Act, introduced in 2009, would address these issues.
PAN works with partners to support stronger measures across the country to create safer spaces for children as they grow.


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- Omaha, NE
- United States
This conversation is closed.
Detroit's recent file for bankruptcy: a possible look into the future of what could happen to other cities here in the U.S.
Detroit just recently filed for bankruptcy, if you did not already know. The city was once a economically thriving city. The city's booming auto industry kept that city afloat since its birth. However, the auto industry here in the U.S. has saw drastically declined; we recently saw that with through GM. Labor costs here in the U.S. have pushed companies to international grounds.
Could we possible see other U.S. city's crumble because of off shore labor?
Also, what can we learn from Detroit's file for bankruptcy?
Peter Mullen
Aug 4 2013: To say it's natures way, is cute, but ridiculous. Detroit is failing for the same reasons cities, around the country, and world are failing.That is (ORGANIZED CRIME). I'm not talking about a bunch of thugs at pizza joint, shaking down local businesses for protection money, although Detroit had plenty of that. I'm talking about big time organized crime.Thugs come in all sizes.The Godfather is an old fashioned picture of things as they were in the twentieth century.That's a fantasy nowadays, very quaint. The Unions didn't desiign those gas hog cars, and trucks that burn enough fuel to power an aircraft carrier. It was the (Corporartions) that made all the design, and marketing decisions. They completely ignored obvious international trends since the oil embargo of the 1970s. Because of high profit in the domestic market for these gas hogs, they ignored trends, and were slaughtered as result in international sales. Furthermore there's a mountain of evidence that the (oil industry) played a major roll in convincing the auto makers to force those gas hog brands down our throats.They proceeded to pump up the American brainwashed males that their manhood would be in question if they didn't drive a Ford F250, or Dodge ram big eneough to tow a freight train to the local bar for beers after work. Detroit is failing because a corrupt congress not only allowed outsourcing to foreign factories, but actually encouraged it because, they were handsomely paid off to do so. The major investors, The big boys, the top executives, and the insider traders on Wall Street cashed in before taking "deliberate" steps to commit fraud, and destroy unions which has always been their goal. They leave the American taxpayer with the mess. The auto industry is doing fine now because of the American tax payer. They should be forced to repair the criminal damage they deliberately caused in persuit of unmittigated, despicable, corporate greed, and the corruption they caused in local governments.
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Aug 6 2013: That covers much of it but don't forget the owners of us auto industry bought into japan-korea-china big.
They created overseas jobs, product, etc to undermine usa workers, meanwhile gaining powerful influence over foreign governments, etc
Dan Freeman
Jul 24 2013: Sorry Austin but the facts don't bear that out. Very few jobs in the aggregate lost to "off shoring". Right to Work States like Tennessee, South Carolina, and Texas have been huge job creators while Big Government/ Big Labor States like Michigan and Illinois have gotten crushed. And what of 60 years of single party rule for Detroit?
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bart hsi
Jul 24 2013: The prospect of bankruptcy by other cities is very real. The reasons for that are not only due to the different wage scales between the U. S. and overseas countries. They also include that there are more consumers of many manufactured commodities such as autos, electronic devices, and other products, which have big consumer markets such as in China and India. Thus the moving of manufacturing facilities to China, etc. is due to the fact that it's more practical that the car cos. could make cars and sell them there conveniently. As to the method of charging import duties, the free trade rule will discourage a one-sided "protection" by government policy which wouldn't be allowed by the court on international trade agreement. Furthermore the Chinese could easily increase the duties of U. S. made exports into their country in retaliation..
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The other problems in the Detroit bankruptcy are 1. the obligation in pension fund for city employees grow tremendously because of the reduced yield on the pension fund investment, thus added on more expense into the shortage from the city budget. The cause of the lower yield was due to the low economic growth from high unemployment and low interest rate policy by the Fed. 2. Consequently, the city tried to increase the taxes on businesses and individuals to make up the deficit which caused more of the taxpayers to flee the city. In the recent count, 78,000 buildings in the city are abandoned, and 40% of the taxes due are delinquent. So this is a vicious cycle that could only make it worse if they try to let it continue.
So, as long as the economic growth is stuck in little or none, then the situation most likely would continue. And this trouble will persist in the cities which tries to use taxes to make up the deficit spending. And the places to where the fleeing taxpayers go will benefit, including the nearby suburbs as well as cities in other regions with better economic growth.
wayne uejio
Jul 26 2013: 1. 1950 population of Detroit was 1.85 million, within Detroit there were over 10 auto plants, making cars or parts and 1 headquarters. there were many plants in the neighboring towns
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2. 1956 - Federal Highway act was passed and by 1960 it was cheaper to have plants away from Detroit
3. In the 1970's and 1980's saw the growth of plants in Ohio, Wisconsin, California, Canada (yes there were auto plants in Canada before NAFTA), etc. all based in North America
4. 1980 - population was 1.2 million - there was a major move to the suburbs by Whites and later Blacks starting in the late 1960's.
5. 1980 - number of auto plants was down to 6 in Detroit
6. In the 60's and 70's the auto makers made several bad bets - gas guzzlers and poor quality which still haunt to this day causing them to lose market share and causing layoffs and plant closings
7. 1980 Detroit Admin and Public labor unions bemoan the loss of the "good old days" and demand the auto industry move back to Detroit planning for its return - major problem to layoff public workers and they still assumed to support a population 1.8 million
8. 2010 - population 700K, 2 plants, 1 headquarters - total working 8k in Detroit
9. Today, 1 public worker per 55 people living in Detroit, estimated 6 Billion dollar pension/health care bill for retirees
10. 47% of the taxes for properties are not paid nor collected, budget assumes they are
Major Culprits: Detroit Admin, Labor Unions, Auto Leaders - all 3 short sighted and refused to see that "the king had no clothes"
Way down the list is off shoring.
Mike Colera
Jul 26 2013: Let's see, there is no explanation for Detroit to be in the situation that it is in.
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A thriving auto industry where auto workers were making a good living, prudent city planning assured sustained growth and maintenance of city services. City employment policies were well thought out to insure that employment expenses could be adjusted to income projection to avoid unfunded liabilities. I just don't understand what went wrong.
I am sure the President will do something. He said he wouldn't let Detroit fail.
Sorry, sometimes it's just too hard to resist....
Comment deleted
Jul 25 2013: You must have forgotten about the 50 billion dollars GM received in 2009. If that is not a sign that the U.S. lost its ground in the auto industry, I don't know what is. Furthermore, after receiving 50 billion dollars, I'd hope that GM could climb back up the auto industry ladder, and congrats GM found themselves at the very top in 2012. However, even though they have paid nearly all of their debt back to the treasury, the treasury will lose roughly around 11.4 billion dollars through this exchange: through selling their shares they received as payment towards the 50 billion.
I couldn't agree more with you when you say "we need a whole new technology for cars."
Comment deleted
Mike Colera
Jul 26 2013: NNNNNOOOOO not quite. Altho most of the "loan" was paid off, US taxpayers are holding a lot of stock that has to have a payout of $95 per share to get our ROI.... It may happen, but the new GM has not shown any really brilliant management yet and so it may not be in my lifetime...
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no big deal but it may not happen in my 2 year old grandson's life time.
As far as making money on the deal, the Feds lost billions in tax revenues from bondholders of the old GM and lost tax revenues and paid out unemployment benefits to the thousand of non union workers at Delco Remy and other major GM suppliers. About the only real benefit to saving GM was the votes the president got from Michigan.Jul 30 2013: Does anyone know why the likes of Honda and Toyota as well as all other automakers not in Detroit were never offered any bailout help? Why they were not at the table testifying before Congress about how much they need help from the American government?Aug 14 2013: GM got its welfare because GM was mismanaged and well-connected. Ford didn't take government welfare.
Mandy Fisher
Jul 26 2013: Yes, yes, yes! Ugh, it is so simple yet the process isn't being pushed. High speed rails would solve so many issues, and make life much more enjoyable for a large portion of the population. Why are we still wasting away in traffic, dying in wrecks, and pumping the air with all those delicious fumes? Oh, and as you said, it would provide a heaping pile of jobs just waiting to be filled. What are we waiting for?
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Dan Freeman
Jul 24 2013: Detroit bankruptcy is overwhelmingly the result of single party (Democratic) rule for 60 years, most notably black separatist Mayor Coleman Young who presided over Detroit's decline for 20 years. Democrats, aligned with Unions, chased away private business and spent the city into oblivion. It's truly a Liberal fantasy to blame Detroit's demise on "off shore labor". Any city in America run by unions may face the same demise.
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Jul 24 2013: To claim that "off shore labor" to be nothing more than a scapegoat is being ignorant to the fact that off shore labor does have devastating effects.
Aug 1 2013: In this case .... no. Union and politics own this one.Aug 6 2013: Some of that is true but all of it is bsJul 24 2013: Very sad, but other American cities have serious problems. In fact, most of them do.
Aug 1 2013: Good point George. 28 states have projected bankruptcy when Obama care comes on board. The federal government is broke ... they are spending a lot more than is coming in. The fed is providing stimulus to companies that should have entered bankruptcy.
None of this is new news .. cities, states, and the federal government have been going South for a long time. I wish I could blame the current party in power .... but all of this existed prior to the voters putting these politicians back in office to continue the blood letting.
Aug 1 2013: Agreed Ravi Batra last century in Pooring of America told us this started forty years ago. Samuelson's economics text tells us how the big empoyers lowered wages before the Great Depression. You may like some politicians more than I like ploiticians But the big donors are the same in both parties. When one lowers wages you lower wages. This bubble is going to get worse like they always seem to do. Ravi Batra is a conservative Republican economics prof at SMU.
Ben Jarvis
Jul 24 2013: i'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of the expenses of detroit over time.
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more than 10 years ago now in australia, government went through a period of privatization where services were sold, to be then contracted out to private companies, on the argument that they'd be able to do it more efficiently and hence cheaper for residents. what happened was it worked; costs went down while quality of service remained ...for a time. what then started happening was roads that were built more cheaply started to need maintenance more often than roads that were previously built more expensively by the state, and infrastructure started breaking down as maintenance (deemed 'wasteful') wasn't carried out as often or as thoroughly as before so prices increased quarter on quarter for years (electricity prices are the worst, close to 10 times what they were a few years ago), and some councils found that there was only 1 company bidding on contracts they had offered so they had to pay whatever price that company wanted. very recently people have started talking about making services public again, since they've realised that what they previously thought was government waste actually wasn't at all.
Jul 24 2013: Yes I agree some of the companies are leaches.
Jul 25 2013: it's not that they are leeches, it's that any company must do things like that or they can't operate. if they did preventative maintenance to save costs in the long run, the balance sheet for year would be down, shareholders would be complaining about money being wasted on maintenance that wasn't yet necessary, and either the company would fold or the directors would be replaced and you'd have exactly the same problem.
the whole idea of private companies providing civil services is incompatible, and that's without even going into the argument that every citizen in the country benefits if services are run at cost and are of higher quality than is absolutely necessary.
Jul 25 2013: What are the rules What are we engineering etc.
More important What do we want?
We've had high tariffs in the past and controlled our borders better in the past.Jul 25 2013: good questions! i guess we want good services provided at reasonable cost, which private corporations aren't suitable for providing. best leave them to the optional consumer goods that's what they do best.
what's your opinion on higher tariffs? i've been thinking about that myself lately, and if we put blanket tariffs back into the system, we'd encourage more local production and discourage outsourcing of jobs. it'd be bad for big multinationals but good for every other normal citizen just living and working.
Jul 25 2013: Exactly - that's why conservative Republican SMU economics Prof. Tavi Batra has been advocating it for years. He suggests it would be good for Australia and New Zealand too.Jul 25 2013: yes it would, some australians are tired of getting treated like a 2nd-rate customer by the US (eg prices are double or even up to 4 times what they cost in the US, even for exactly the same product) so i'm no sure why we keep getting on board with the free trade thing. guess to most others 'free' sounds good.
Jul 26 2013: That was what he was writing about. I regret that I am not familiar with that, but as you describe it it sounds unfair. Ravi Batra suggested you could significantly raise your incomes by doing more of your manufacturing while not or only moderately increasing product prices. An advantage is in saving shipping costs and wastes. That's not the same as being against some trade It's just the extreme stuff we are seeing now. Our wage structure has been really messed up by these freebooters. I don't know if anyone else is concerned, but allowing everything to spread rapidly e.g. diseases and pests could be dangerous - unless someone likes cane toads and whatever.Aug 6 2013: Or just make oil cos pay for their externalities, partic military costs, direct and indirect...
Lejan .
Jul 23 2013: 'Labor costs here in the U.S. have pushed companies to international grounds.'
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This is one way to see it, a very popular one indeed, but do you think the principle of profit maximization needs to be pushed at all? Isn't it part of its intrinsic nature to flee in advance whenever there is a better option to flee to?
There is no natural law that a society has to allow a company who left the very country for their benefits to keep their right of that very market. But when we allow it, we shouldn't be surprised, that they do it, and that old grown structures fall apart.
I think we should rethink the current system. Because on international salary levels 'we' as 'employees' could only be competitive again on levels we wouldn't be able to keep our current standard. Not even close. Or is there anyone who could afford to work for $38 a month, 70 hours a week? I have my doubt on this.
So why is apple allowed to produce their iconic, high profit products in China? Do you think, that an average US income would be able to destroy that profit margin? So as long this happens, prepare for more bankrupt cities to come ...
Jul 23 2013: Are you pushing an isolationist point of view?
Lejan .
Jul 24 2013: Isolation? No, balancing! If there is no incentive to move to low labor cost countries, a given infrastructure remains balanced within a 'higher' labor cost country. Before the 'global market idea' was introduced, import duty was a balancing regulative measure to avoid 'job drainage'. Any capitalistic economy goes where the profit is, thats its rule. What is not the rule is to create a stable foundation for the people of a nation, which we can see quite drastic at the moment.
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Ben Jarvis
Jul 24 2013: very good point. to use your example of apple, they depend on american consumers and hence they depend on americans having jobs where they earn a salary decent enough to be able to buy their products, yet they pay as little of those salaries as possible.
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when i moved here to japan years ago i thought the idea of mandating employment (basically the labour law is if you make X amount of money you have to employ Y number of people) was ridiculous, but recently i get it. it ensures that as many people as possible have a disposable income, which means that japanese companies make more sales. far from costing them more in employment costs, it ensures they enjoy high profits, while also making sure that one company can't leech off the country and damage other companies by unfairly taking money from the economy without putting anything back in.
wayne uejio
Jul 24 2013: let me disagree - what you are proposing is a protective tariff, similar to the Tariff of Abominations/Tariff act of 1829 and the Tariff Act of 1930 which deepened and caused the great depression to last a lot longer.
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The act of putting on a tariff to protect jobs in a country is isolationist
Lejan .
Jul 24 2013: One of the major concerns of any nation should be the stability of its very economy. But the major concern of most companies is profit maximization which comes without loyalty to the very nation they form in. Large scale tax evasion to the cayman islands may serve as one example on this.
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By this, the very moment a nation allows 'free global trade' it loses any effective measures to ensure for a stable and solid inland economy against drainage of all sort, currency, taxes, resources, etc., so it becomes only a matter of time for the collapse to settle in.
When China opened up to the world economically, all German car manufactures got very exited about the new opportunities of this huge untapped market. Yet China did a very clever thing. They granted access to their markets under one important condition only, which was, that German cars for the Chinese marked was to be produced in China to the highest percentage. Imports from Germany were restricted. This clever decision not only created high-grade jobs in China, it also allowed for large scale technology transfer in car production 'for free'. The Chinese pretty wisely enriched their economy this way and controlled the drainage of financial capital towards Germany on substantial levels.
And even though China has become the biggest market for many German car manufactures, this boom did not result in an explosive 'job creation' in Germany. And due tax evasion measures of the same companies, Germany can't even participate on the profits made in China.
'Isolation' as you prefer to name it was smartly used by China, as it demanded to produce within THEIR borders to consolidate their economy and not to weaken it. And even though I do not consider the Chinese 'economic miracle' to be solid in itself, under the ruling principle of capitalism it did manage to gain a dominant role in it and so far.
On the 'great depression' exist several theories about what have caused it, and it depends on which economical view one has.
Jul 24 2013: That is what Japan did during the 50's and 60's. Most people did not know that to sell something in Japan you had to have a Japanese partner that owned 50 % of the subsidiary in Japan. This lead to a short term gain but its goal was to learn the technology.
The example of car is rather interesting. I believe the most American made car (i.e. has the most American made parts and assembled in America) is a Toyota model.
Lejan .
Jul 24 2013: What makes you conclude, that Japan's strategy was only a 'short term gain'? Don't you think such 'balancing' could consolidate the economy of a country also longterm?
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The risk of any open global market is, that it seems to run fine at the beginning. Companies produce their product in 'low labor cost countries' and sell them with higher profit in 'high labor cost countries', because the purchasing power is higher there BECAUSE of the higher 'labor costs'.
But as more and more companies are using this gradient for their profit maximization, as more and more jobs get lost in the 'high labor cost countries', which consequently reduces the overall purchasing power of that nation. And not only that, because increasing unemployment will further degenerate the wealth of that nation, by either higher taxation to compensate for the losses in taxes or in reducing social services and cultural attainments and finally both of it.
Therefore I think it is in the interest of all people of any nation to protect themselves wisely from 'open markets'. Not to isolate, which would be the other extreme, but to carefully balance the stability on long terms and not on short term profits of just a view.
Very interesting and perfectly working business models have been put in to praxis already, which would balance a home market pretty effectively on its own. The concept is based on the idea, that all workers own their very company. All have an equal share and all have the same vote. Not only tabs this democratic system directly in the motivation of those workers, it also avoids purely profit driven decisions, as it is unlikely that workers would vote for their jobs to be sent to a foreign country due to lower labor cost ... A self correcting mechanism, in which each company has to compete on the market, mainly the home market, yet based on the interest of all working people involved.
This is my favorite concept, as it dermatitises our economy in favor of ALL of those who run it.Jul 24 2013: Globally, America has been building the middle class in several countries for decades. At the very same time our middle class here in America has been dwindling. Capitalism, indeed, will migrate to where maximum profit can be obtained, but at what cost?
Perhaps, possibly one day the economic clock with tick our way and we might be a nation with no middle class and cheap labor.
Aug 6 2013: the system works
....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQBHr8pjGXIJul 24 2013: Well said.Jul 24 2013: Yes things would be different with you sell it here - you build it here.
That was advoacated by Ravi Batra in The Pooring of America.Aug 14 2013: The auto industry declined DECADES AGO. What we see today is nothing compared to the 1970s. Of course, children don't know that. It was not "off shore labor" that killed Detroit, it was mismanagement and political corruption. Detroit's politicians made long-term promises based on short-term income.Aug 13 2013: I believe so. I don't like the idea of the solution being to bail them out. If we bailed out every failing industry we would still have a telegraph industry! I think they need to rethink things and find solutions to problems, and if they can't find solutions then maybe we should let them fail. It may sound cruel but natural selection teaches us survival of the fittest. These problems have been around before. Identify the problems and do historical research and find solutions to the problems that worked!Aug 13 2013: great way to get out of paying pensions.
sad.Aug 13 2013: I think the crumbling effect is due more to patent laws preventing individuals from competing in established markets with similar ideas. Labor has a tremendous effect but it is not the sole cause of jobs moving away from one location to another.
Given, if jobs move from one country to another and more profit is made, there is no crumbling effect on the global picture. It's just moving from one location to another.
Locally, in the US and Europe, it is a big problem. I feel we will see both an increase in bankruptcy and creative ideas to handle the problem arise.
Part of that solution could be a decline in the money paid to labor. People will do anything to feed their families, even take a cut in salary. If that were to happen, the US would be back in the competition. Of course there would have to be a parallel decline in food prices and housing to feed this labor force. People don't need IPads but they do need housing and food. They could even do with less health care if necessary.Aug 10 2013: Detroit's problems were of hubris. They have been in decline for 6 decades and they did nothing to adapt or change to be competitive. Detroit was fat and happy feeling they had it made. They didn't feel they needed to embrace another industry or move up the education or labor ladder to make their city grow.
More political subdivisions will fail if they do not grow organically. That is grow their tax base with rising real estate values instead of raising millage. Tax all business fairly- not taxing them to death until they leave or giving fee in lieu of to get a new business and make up the difference by taxing existing businesses more. These political leaders have to create demand for their areas. There is no reason to decline in population for more than one decade. The first decline is the wake up call, if you do not respond it is the entire community's fault for failure to adapt.Aug 7 2013: I feel bad for the city of Detroit, its so scary that this could happen to a major city, I feel the writing is on the wall , many more cities will crumble.too badAug 7 2013: Oh yes, after Detroit other cities will follow suit and this will be a huge mistake. We have to learn fiscal responsibility in the US and the only way is to start from scratch: default and begin again. Otherwise the US tax payer will be on the hook forever and those who continue to get rich by 'never spending their own money' will just get fatter and fatter--look at the banks and investment firms we bailed out; they haven't changed their behavior one single bit and why should they, it's not their money!!!Aug 6 2013: And the beat goes onAug 1 2013: No one, no place is "too big to fail"; it's nature's way of getting rid of the worst and replacing it with better; util...it goes to their heads and then they fail. It's Nature's way!
Aug 7 2013: Like Jaws, Alien(S)...Mono culture Capitalism> competition>cheating> agression>overeating, military spending, deodorant sales, more training, more more more, injuries, disease, doctors fees, cambodia, africa, fsrs, germany, italy (gladio) china, korea, chile, guatemala, El Salvador, costa rica (gladio?), religion, sex, nuclear (exploding) families. Natural, darwin and Jeusa Christ Columbo agree on that, pop too big to fail?Jul 30 2013: This string has pretty much found all the problems that Detroit has suffered, but in response to the question of outsourcing,.. that is a result more then a cause. Successful businesses look forward and local environment is a consideration, when it turns bad, it will give cause to relocate. If labor and location costs raise.... they leave.
What can we learn....
I heard a speaker on personal finances. He talked about budgeting and living within your budget, about saving for a rainy day, about looking ahead and considering if you got laid off from your job and had to live on very limited income. Identify needs and wants and be ready to limit or deny your wants.
What great ideas..... for cities
Budget prudently,
Save some funds for emergencies
Plan on your tax base going smaller, it always does
Taxing is easy... to easy.
The mistakes that were made in Detroit are so well known.
What I find amusing is the number of city administrators all over the country who have seen Detroit, and following the same path, saying:
"Not a problem, we won't get caught. We are smarter then those people who ran Detroit into the ground"Jul 27 2013: Why is Detroit's bankruptcy of significance? California has had that happen a few times. google california bankrupt.Jul 24 2013: Maybe a good place to begin a resourced based economy.