text:
- Christian Howardson
- Salt Lake City, UT
- United States
This conversation is closed.
Religion and Atheism
Here's my take on an "Atheism 2.0" - all quotes are for emphasis:
Imagine a continuum; on the left side is a 100% conviction that a god(s)/afterlife do not exist, and on the right is a 100% conviction that a god(s)/afterlife is real. In the middle of this continuum, 0%, is a conviction that a lack OR presence of a god(s)/afterlife are on equal terms.
Believe in a god(s)/afterlife? If so, where do you think he (it?) resides on the above mentioned continuum? Why? As a point of reference, where do you think the existance of the toothfairy falls on this continuum?
Now, while my own personal opinion might be that the existence of a god(s) and/or afterlife (especially the one depicted in any of the three desert dogmas) are of extremely low odds (say, 99% for does not exist) and are not worth adopting as real, the important thing is that I am not absolutist in my point of view, because it is unprovable, even if only technically unprovable (ya can't bring back evidence of nothingness, can you?).
In my opinion, the "thoughtform" of the future is one were people do not claim an absolutist stance on impossible to prove concepts such as these. Arguing whether a god does or does not exist is pointless. Fighting over which god is or isn't a true god only leads to war. It's possible that the most humble and honest position is one of uncertainty. Imagine if everyone would just concede that they really just didn't know...might be a lot more peaceful world.
Also, the terms "atheist" and "believer" should probably be removed from our vocabulary. Not only have these terms been evacuated of any substantive meaning, but they've become words regularly used to express contempt or ridicule, which makes people defensive, and basically blocks any hope for open communication regarding the greatest mysteries of the universe.
Jan 30 2012: Addressing a few points scattered around this thread:
Which god: All of them. And not only gods but all variations of rebirth, godheads and life after death promises. Big fancy church religions or prostrating oneself before a volcano and avoiding black cats, it's all the same. It is superstition.
Convincing those (at least, adults) of faith: This isn't going to happen, but I would say that this thread is primarily a discussion between people with no religious beliefs. The contradictions inherent in belief in the supernatural are plain to see if one is willing to see. Therefore I have nothing to offer the religiously inclined.
Why discuss it then?: Well, our entire history has been accompanied by religious belief. It is everywhere we look. The need to establish a strong body of opposition to superstition in education, governance and public life in general is paramount.
Atheism's "bad" track record: Hardly. With increased knowledge has come a reduction in the proportion of people able to hold the beliefs of those who explained the world in primitive terms derived from a primitive existence. Detailed knowledge of the world around us is, historically speaking, a new phenomenon. Knowledge has an excellent track record.
Atheism as offensive term: I address myself here to those who have no religious beliefs and therefore feel no need to look for placative terms. However, I do not wish to offend those who are religious. I'm not even sure that I'm doing someone a favour by undermining their beliefs. Doesn't change the facts, though, does it?
Agnostic/atheist/whatever: We do not need to waste our time and energy playing with these words. The concept of gods and ghosts was made up by primitive peoples. I will happily explain to someone who doesn't understand that there is no need to prove the nonexistence of fairy tale x, but among ourselves let us not mess around with 99.99% anything. Those of faith will misunderstand it and many will abuse it.
Peter Hodges
Jan 29 2012: My position on the continuum would be 100% to the left as I don't see anything to believe in. A quote from Dr Desmond Morris, a noted Zoologist may be useful.
- +3
" When we first developed verbal language we were able to talk in the past, present and future tense. Other species only communicate in the present tense- so a dog, for example, has no idea that one day it will die. Once we were able to contemplate out personal future and realize that one day we would be dead, we had to protect ourselves from this terrible thought and so we conceived of an afterlife. And (to cut a very long story very short) in this way religion was born. We still fear death which is why, I suppose, religion still manages to prosper, even in a scientific age."
George Kong
Jan 29 2012: Agnostic Atheism (or -99.99% probability of god existence) is the only rational position to take.
- +3
It's not so much that you think that it may just be possible that there could be something out there. It's simply the acknowledgement that the absence of evidence isn't evidence unto itself.
As it relates to the idea of god; not so important (because after all, you're treating the idea of god as essentially pointless)... but as it applies to things that have a greater, more immediate and direct affect on our lives, it's an important point to bear in mind.
Jan 29 2012: Exactly.
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Jan 25 2012: The term "atheist" is certainly one that I find objectionable. Not because I shy away from any stigma that some may attach to it, but because its very existence implies that belief in a god is somehow the norm. There is no word for people who do not believe in the tooth fairy.
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ethan langer
Jan 25 2012: but because its very existence implies that belief in a god is somehow the norm.
- +1
Because it IS the norm.
Jan 25 2012: Ethan, you are right. Sloppy thinking on my part.
The term "atheist" implies that belief in a god is some sort of default setting. Which i would dispute.
Jan 26 2012: I agree - the onus of proof rests on those who claim there is something rather than nothing, so the basic framework of religious debate should be shifted to reflect this, as in, for example, "are you theist and why?", rather than "are you atheist and what's wrong with you?"Jan 26 2012: Also, I am reminded of this: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.htmlJan 25 2012: How engenuous of you to view the term atheist like that.
Is a loving person ruthfull?
This duction of entomology seems interesting to me.
I hope my tax refund conds on time.
Vert your eyes to these words.
I suppose being cancer free or pain free must be negative states since they are modified by the negative word 'free'. Or is it just negative prefixes or suffixes that turn a word into something bad.Jan 30 2012: I'm thinking they should relabel the terms atheist and theist with the new official terms non-theist and pro-theist. That way, instead of suggesting a negative and a neutral, they would suggest a 'not' and a 'for'... might be linguistically fairer that way. Quick someone tell Webster.
Or wait, how about they take the inverse polarity of theist and switch it with the multiplexed isotope of..... ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....man, if not for the dark ages, rather than sitting here pushing back against this tide of hysteria, I'd be slam dunking on the moon. right. now. boomgoesthedynamite.
Tim Mackey
Feb 1 2012: My feelings on this matter (indoctrinated as a Catholic until the age of reasoning) is that you cannot convince a truely convicted theist of the absurdity of their religion until they have some awakening within their consciousness. It just is not going to happen, no matter how persuasive your argument is or how elegantly you present it. A country that could elect George WishIhadabrain Bush twice! Has not awakened and one would have a better chance of creating a spark of atheistic doubt in a rock. Don't mean to be so blunt but thats how I see this topic.
- +2
Feb 2 2012: Yeah, I've always thought that. But somehow, I stubbornly keep thinking there might be a better way to approach one's resistance to, or a way to accelerate a person towards, an awakening.
I personally had an awakening after nearly 20 years of being a...Christian, as you might imagine, considering I'm named after the religion. The second I built the courage to stand up for myself in the face of blasphemy and eternal damnation, a chain of thought was set in motion like a snow ball rolling down a hill. A decade later, here I am.
And my belief wasn't shallow or hokey either. The religion game was serious business for me. I've had some powerful religious experiences, some resulting in tears and damn near hysteria. But I came to learn what a complex organ the brain is and how perception does not always equal reality, no matter how true something might feel on an emotional level. And more importantly, I came to learn that fervent reliance on god and prayer was a waste of time.
Thus, it dawned on me that, as humans living on a planet floating in space, our fragile situation of life was and always will be influenced primarily by OUR choices and OUR interaction with each other and the environment around us. So I think to myself, if everyone else could get their head out of the clouds, and focus solely on issues affecting people and the environment while we're alive, what would this world look like?Jan 25 2012: As Alan Watts said, "Faith is a state of openness or trust. To have faith is like when you trust yourself to the water. You don't grab hold of the water when you swim, because if you do you will become stiff and tight in the water, and sink. You have to relax, and the attitude of faith is the very opposite of clinging, and holding on. In other words, a person who is fanatic in matters of religion, and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe becomes a person who has no faith at all. Instead they are holding tight. But the attitude of faith is to let go, and become open to truth, whatever it might turn out to be."Jan 28 2012: Atheism = There is no proof for any of the claims theism has provided, therefore we must not assume anything. This includes god, unicorns, and talking cereal. Wipe the slate clean, all the bullshit is just sidetracking us from harnessing our infinite potential.
Think of an artist, attempting to create a masterpiece. Before he starts drawing, he needs to decide WHAT he is going to draw, how he is going to draw it, etc. He needs to KNOW what he is drawing. You can't just scribble all over the page aimlessly. That's a waste of a canvas.
If we are to create OUR masterpiece, we need to stop wasting so many canvasses. Think of all the deaths, of all the years we lost to the dark ages, of all the ideas destroyed and people who suffered for thinking differently.
I actually want to KNOW how the universe operates, how it came to be, etc. It's the most important thing, the ONLY thing.
Jan 28 2012: "I actually want to KNOW how the universe operates..how it came to be, etc " -- even i also dont know. But dont you think that the explanation given by modern scientist is more trustworthy than the explanation given by old people based on asumption .
kk oneworld
Jan 27 2012: I think we should stop this debate about who is right about the existence or non existence of God because there will be no agreement I can assure you. The stalement can be compared to two salesmen both selling shoes, one Nike brand and the other Adidas. Both companies want to make the best shoes, but when asked in an open debate which company makes the better shoes, none would want to openly admit that the other is correct, even if it knows it is true. This response can either be a basic human survival instinct or as a result of a code of honour one has undertaken to protect. May be something else drives this behaviour.
- +1
In my view, science is the only tool available at this moment that will help us determine if there is indeed God. Asking atheist to have faith alone is not gonna work because atheist are people who would only accept a hypothesis as truth when backed up with sufficient cogent evidences and who would feel irresponsible if they just argue based on hearsay. Having said this, granted that "truth" it self is transcient and why it is so is mainly because new evidences might be found to disproved the accepted "truth". A good example is the debate over whether the world is flat or round centuries ago.Jan 26 2012: As to the term "agnostic", it seems that people that bother to use that term are really just trying to hedge their bets. Here's a question: Are you "agnostic" about the existence of Santa, or the Easter Bunny, or leprechauns or invisible pink unicorns? Are you "agnostic" about the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Zeus? Are you "agnostic" about the existence of Mithra or Ra? If not, why would you be "agnostic" about yhwh? Why would you feel the need to hedge your bets just because as much of the population now believes in that fairy tale as they did in Odin and Hercules during their time? Are you *really* agnostic or are you just trying to placate the majority and appear less "offensive" to their delicate sensibilities?
Jan 26 2012: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism
Sums up my position.
While not trying to placate, it may be productive to find a less offensive way of identifying what can be defined as a delusion, in this case, the belief in god or an afterlife. Can it be done? What if we changed the "I'm right, you're wrong" approach to an "I don't know and you don't know" argument? Will our species, as a whole, ever be able to find strength and meaning when faced with uncertainty and the infinite unknown?
Jan 27 2012: To be honest, I could really care less if someone is "offended" by my lack of buying into their delusion. I am more than happy to listen to their arguments for their beliefs, if they are willing to listen to my arguments against those beliefs. My attitude is pretty much, if you are offended by and don't want to listen to me laugh in your face, don't present your fairy tales to me as though they were in any way reasonable or made any sense.
I think there is value in all approaches. Sometimes being extremely subtle has value, sometimes being blatantly, brutally honest has it's value. Obviously, subtly is not my strong suite (yes, I know it's PAINFULLY obvious, lol), so I'll let someone else cover the subtle, placating approaches. :)
Jan 27 2012: I know where you're coming from. Matter of fact, I'm basically there. I concur with arguments made by people like Richard Dawkins, Pat Condell, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, et al.
The thing is, it would be easy if militarnt atheism was enough to make Christians, and the like, realize that maybe they are delusional, but it usually only leads to cries of persecution and a greater resistance to logical appeals.
So I'm wondering, how does one level with religion without condescension, yet still maintain a stern anti-delusional message? And more importantly, how can we imbue culture with this sentiment so that religiousness is no longer the default?
Just a passing thought. It may very well be this phenomenon of religion will have to take its course until its inevitable demise. But I'd like to be an active participant in its extinction, rather than a passive element living in the shadow of its specious and wide-spread influence. Guess that's why I'm here.Jan 26 2012: Well, if we are talking about the abrahamic religions, we must examine the "holy books" that they are based in. With all books of the bible (old testament, new testament, and the book of mormon), each having hundreds of contradictions, inconsistencies, logical fallacies, and flat out lies, we MUST assume that the religion is 100% false, since every assertion that they claim can be disproved. Are any of them based on the existence of a "real" supernatural being that was just so inept that it was unable to communicate its message to humanity in any meaningful way? I would have to put my vote at about the -99.999% area. As for any other religion, I think odds are that they are just as fallacious. After all, if any were the "perfect word of their god", they would actually be able to stand up to scrutiny. Since none have ever produced any evidence that they are valid, we can only assume that there has never been a valid religion. Does that mean there are no supernatural being that are in "existence"? Well, no, but then, as you point out, there is no way to prove a negative. But, since there is no evidence of their existence, we can only assume that they fall into the category of the invisible pink unicorn. There is no reason to believe any crazy hypothesis without having at least same evidence to it's validity and only as long as there is no evidence contradicting its validity.
Jose Mas
Jan 26 2012: I assume most if not all participants in this discussion predominantly refer to a christian god. Would it make sense to define what we mean by god in this context?
- +1
Actually, the reason why I think it might be a good idea to define god is because it helps frame the question in exploring its existence. My exploration beginning with the Big Bang to our existence indicates that there is plenty of evidence that god, as defined by conventional religions does not exist. Nevertheless, there are still meny questions about the cosmos and our existance. This in turn leads me to the question of the meaning of life ( sometimes a la Monty Phyton)
Jan 26 2012: I would assume you can define the term any way you feel the need. I agree that most of the participants refer predominantly to yhwh, but if you want to be more general, just try to be specific in your definition. For me, a fairy tale is a fairy tale. There is no evidence that ANY religion is valid and there is no evidence of any "afterlife", so no matter how you define the term, I'm going to be atheistic about it. Seems pretty cut and dried to me. If there is some sort of afterlife, IMHO, it makes no difference. The xian version is clearly false, so we couldn't possibly have any idea what it would be like, so it is really just an exercise in futility to even try to imagine it.
Jose Mas
Jan 27 2012: I fully agree with you. The issue of religion could be approached from the point of view of the vacuum created by the renounciation to the religion that we grew up with; i.e.: for former religious people, how do we meet needs for belonging, rituals, morality, spirituality, etc.?
- +1
Jan 27 2012: Except for "morality". Morality does not come from religion, but from socio- and socio-economical evolution and pressures. If we took the "morality" of the bible, we would still be slave holders, burning people at the stake, raping virgins in order to obtain a wife, stoning her to death when we find out she isn't a virgin on our wedding nights, beating children, stoning children to death if they talked back to us, committing genocide and more. Sharia law comes from Yhwh, it is not something that mohammad made up. it comes from the Old Testament, just like xian law does. Notice that in the 10 commandments, there is no mention of fraud, or rape, or destruction of another's property, or pedophilia. Notice that the bible can be interpreted to allow people to treat homosexuals as not just sub-citizens, but sub-humans, despite the fact that no person has any control over their sexuality, or who they are attracted to. And yet at the same time, it condones and even commands that people hold slaves and details just how severely they are allowed to be beaten.
No, morality does not come from the bible or even from god himself. He is such a inept leader, teacher, parent (whatever you want to call him) that he ended up having to wipe out the entire human race because he couldn't figure out how to communicate how he wanted them to act. The, 2000 years later, had to have a brutal blood sacrifice to himself just to allow some humans to be acceptable to himself. Sad, sad, sad. I am amazed that people actually think that any decency could come out of fairy tales that are even more horribly, disgustingly brutal than even the Brothers Grimm could imagine up.Jan 26 2012: I do not belive in god simply because i have not seen him or her.
i do not have any problem with others who believe on him.But i do have problem when my own ideas are questioned.
Throughout my 26 years of small life-- religion never helpled me to achive anything, even the peace of mind.Its me and the good people around me who makes me a better person.So to me religion(whatever it is)-written by some crazy people 1000 years ago, is simply a waste of time. But my idea is my idea. Came out of my education,my mind.Listen, if you like or ignore it.
Robert Ezell
Jan 25 2012: As an atheist, I have never argued that 'no god or gods actually exist.' Why not? Because I do not believe that 'no god or gods actually exist.'
- +1
Atheism/theism are descriptors based upon a single question: Do you believe that some god or gods actually exist? If you do believe that some god or gods actually exist, you are a theist. If it is not the case that you believe some god or gods actually exist, you are not a theist... that is... you are an atheist. Either x or ~x must be true--the law of the excluded middle. Either you believe some god or gods actually exist, or you do not. Either you are a theist, or you are an atheist.
Knowledge/certainty is another question entirely. One can claim to know that some god actually exists, making them a gnostic theist. One can claim to know that no god actually exists, making them a gnostic atheist. One may not claim to know, but still believe, that some god actually exists, making them an agnostic theist. One may not claim to know, and still not believe that some god actually exists, making them an agnostic atheist.
I am an agnostic atheist. I do not claim to know that no god actually exists. If I encountered good reason or evidence to support the claim that some god or gods actually exist, I could become an agnostic theist. I haven't placed a bet on the god or no god horses. I simply prefer to follow reason and evidence. I'd be thrilled to find some good reason or evidence, but I haven't. As such, I do not believe that some god or gods exist.
Does it matter? Not much, no. Still, I think reason and evidence do matter, and when someone seeks to justify a claim with bad reason or evidence, I'm not going to be convinced. I might even point out how the justification falls short. I believe truth does matter, and reason and evidence are the only two sources I am aware of that provide it reliably.
Jan 25 2012: Well articulated. I'd have to agree with you - according to your descriptions, I would also consider myself an agnostic atheist.
It would be interesting to find another effective, yet less confrontational, way around this age old religious argument in a bid to infuse the future of our civilization with a greater desire for finding truth with reason and evidence rather than superstition. Unfortunately for the most part, it seems like religion (among other things) is a huge road block sitting in front of this goal.Jan 25 2012: Dawkins argues here for the use of "non theist":
http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_dawkins_on_militant_atheism.html (last quarter of the lecture)Feb 4 2012: It is extremely dumb to label atheism a religion:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/bill-maher-unbaptize-mitt-romney-edward-davies-287107Feb 3 2012: We have proofs and evidence for God existence .
Feb 3 2012: Ironically enough, the link says, "page not found."
Feb 3 2012: Ironically or appropriately? :)
Feb 3 2012: It was removed , what I wrote : "I saw many here on TED think we don't have proofs for God's existence ; this is not true . If it were true we(the theists) wouldn't have too much options. I mean, how can we say God is love if He didn't endure to leave us some proofs about Him ? ...... it's not enough saying we don't know if God exist therefore there is possible for Him to exist; (and usually after this claim to fallow the entire triad of ideas like the one above : God is good , love , omnipotent .............) It doesn't make sense .
The evidence for God MUST exist ; it also must be a simple evidence to can be understood by everybody, otherwise this evidence shoots itself in the foot .
So what is the evidence ? Good question .
The revelations exist (the Bible) : we test them , we see if they corroborates with the evidence we have and with the predictions this revelations make ; the results of the test to the all ones who did it are positive therefore we know God exist . Of course you'll never be convinced of it , no problem , all remains to do it's to test the revelations yourself if you wanna make sense . Gook luck.
(It's not important if we know if the Bible is the revelation of God or not because by testing we can find out it ; it's not important if more people claim the reality of different gods : we test them too . In the end we compare and analyze everything we got . I can predict already the results : God exist (the Bible's One) ."Feb 4 2012: Hi Avenir :
Do you know to criticize something ?
Look why I'm asking you this :
-"-Well if God the Mother is considered by theist to be a type of "Parent figure", what do you think is wiser?-Giving a child (humanity) everything it wants, or giving it the tools to get everything it wants; which includes Her Grace"
What is the relevance of this question about what I was talking about ? I don't care about what's wiser because I already know somehow what God did.
"""The evidence for God MUST exist""
---No it doesn't. She's mysterious remember?" how do you know 'she's' mysterious ? However I talk about what we know and have .
"God? Simple?...." I never said God is simple .
You know , you are funny with 'She' , are you serious or not ?
Instead of all these your last question it's a good question :
''"Would you please name these revelations, predictions and evidence that have 'come true'."" Of course I will : the Bible; it contains the revelation of God , it has predictions about the all ones who try to listen of God . When we apply the Bible we get some results ; this results corroborate with the Bible's predictions , in this way we get the evidences .
"How exactly do we do that?" By applying .
We can do this process about any revelation/God and see who's the true One .Feb 5 2012: Avenir:
"You stated that we were given Proof by the Holy Mother, for all to see. But we can't all see it"
I agree but this is your problem not God's one, solve it . Of course we can solve it (we have the tools) God will have do it if we couldn't , I guess .
"Well we don't really know much about Her, She's a mystery" you told me you can see the proofs , I told you this is your problem ; God is not mysterious but you can't see Him which is your problem .
'She':.. it's just funny, and it shares your ideas not what God is about .
I named a revelation : the Bible ; apply the Jesus teachings, and if you gonna read them you'll see they are full of predictions about what happen after you apply them . You'll know then the evidences . All I can do more is to give some examples of some people who applied them and get the evidences. Do you want it ?Feb 5 2012: "So it's like solving a math problem; common sense would dictate that there is only one answer. But what if my answer is different from yours? Did one of us forget to carry the 5? If so, who?" No like a math problem because it involves your entire life . What if ... or what if not ... ? this kind of questions can be easily put . After you consider to do it and you do it , we'll talk about the results.
"-Oh I hardly consider it a problem. It would, however, be a problem for someone who needs a supernatural deity to justify their lives" Of course you hardly consider it a problem , that's why you see the proofs now . It doesn't matter if you think you need or not to justify your life, if you are atheist or agnostic or.... (I don't know it of course but just in case...).
"Why would I want the power to hurl mountains into the sea?" You are just funny . Read again and read also if can't understand more than this some theologians you think you can trust more or less. The same thing about everything else. You didn't understand a iota from Jesus teachings . I don't have time to explain now ; I have also doubts about how much you wanna know it , I don't wanna pass a funny demagogue .
Names : General Booth , John Fletcher , Aiden Wilson Tozer , Martin Luther King , Joan of Cross , bishop of Anslem ...... and many others . You can read about them from wikipedia for now . Good luck .Jan 29 2012: My views might be considered ridiculous on this matter but i am on both side of this continuum depending on which side of the coin you are looking at it. You will have to decide on which side i belong.
My beliefs are that we were created, not by a god or by gods, but by extra-terrestrial human beings, that made us like the old Sumerian tablets mentioned.
I deny the existence of the almighty figure depicted by the Monotheistic religions as "God". I think the "divinities" or the "deities" did existed, but were no real "divinities" as to speak.
As for the "afterlife" part, i do not think of it as the official religions out there, but i think it is possible via advanced technologies to resurrect the body and restore it's previous personality inside it by the use of technologies we have yet to discover.
I am convinced that the old scriptures are true, but i am also convinced that these scriptures were mistranslated and modified during history to please certain theological philosophy that couldn't "at that time" understand how all these things mentioned were possible outside of a "divine realm".
So the religions changed words to adjust to their understandings and sometimes deliberately added or subtracted passage that did not fit their philosophy.
To know what these texts are really all about, we need to look to their most ancient origin, the Sumerian tablets, the bible does not bring the true records of those texts, the bible is a very mistranslated and edited version of the Sumerian tablets.
Therefore i am an Atheist / Creationist.
Does that fit to the 100% conviction that a god(s)/afterlife do not exist, or to the 100% conviction that a god(s)/afterlife is real. Knowing that "god(s)/afterlife" do not correspond to the interpretation of my understandings. But i am formal, the God the bible speaks about doesn't exist, but the Elohim-Anunnaki the Sumerian spoke about do exist.
I think my position is on both sides of the continuum at the same time.
Peter Law
Jan 29 2012: Hi Maxime,
- +1
"My beliefs are that we were created, not by a god or by gods, but by extra-terrestrial human beings, that made us like the old Sumerian tablets mentioned."
You've got the infinite regression to deal with. Who made et, who made whoever made et, ad infinitum.
Jan 29 2012: The answer is the same for every "who made them" question, ad infinitum.
The mistake most of us are doing is to believe that the Universe "must be" finite.
What if i tell you that the Universe isn't finite, neither in space nor time, that it has an infinite layers of existence, like a fractal.
The relation between time and space is one of inverse proportionality. The infinitely large is the same as the infinitely small, working on different scale of time according to their respective scale in space vs the source of observation. That is why planets take a long time to revolved around their stars compared to how fast electrons revolved around their atomic nucleus.
But even there, i'm not sure whereas the Universe is on the same layer as the atomic structure or is contained within the subatomic structure of the atomic nucleus.
However, the "as above so below" or "the infinite state of the universe" was mixed with the concept of ET creators and gave birth later to a new concept of "almighty infinite god" but originally these two concepts were separated, our creators are not almighty like the bible claims their "God" to be, it's a misconception of both concepts put together.
But think about this, if we "today" with the science we have, fail to understand the true concept of infinity, how our ancestors (that did not have the science we have today) could have understood those concepts, they couldn't.Jan 28 2012: For God existance I would give -99,(9)%
0,(3)=1/3; 0,(6)=2/3
Aaand 1/3+2/3=1
I love decimal numeral system.
Jan 29 2012: i like turtles.
Julija L.
Jan 29 2012: Me either.
- +1
Jan 30 2012: nu-uh...or, wait, is it uh-huh?
fJan 28 2012: I want to pose the question, what is the proof that God does not exist? I my self identify myself as a Protestant Christian. I say this to give you a frame of reference in which to respond.
Jan 30 2012: Andrew,
There IS no proof that God does not exist. The same can be said of fairies, ghosts, or any of the myriad deities in which people once believed. So should one believe in everything that cannot be disproved? Why would one believe in YHWH, but not in Zeus? I think the answer is that the YHWH meme has been more successful in perpetuating itself than the Zeus meme. But I really don't understand why. Now THAT would be a much more interesting topic than a fruitless debate about nonexistent evidence for or against gods.
Jan 30 2012: The why debate would end up in the same debate you described as fruitless. However, I do see the point and thought of the same reply myself after posting the comment. I really just wanted to see how someone would respond. Some people just fly off into a frenzy, but I can see that is not the case here.
Now your reply being in essence correct, the question must be posed, "where does logic come from?" It is no more abstract and unseen as those entities mentioned before. So where does it come from?
Jan 30 2012: Andrew,
Logic is something we humans invented to describe "being" when referring to physical reality, correct ways of thinking in the case of rationalizations. But, lest I be misinterpreted, the terms "physical reality" and "rationalizations" are language shortcuts, because thoughts are as physical as anything else. Thus, our logic is ultimately physical.
It is an gross equivocation to compare something like logic to imaginary beings though. Example, those imaginary beings are never necessary, while using logic is unescapable.
I am assuming that you are honestly trying the TAG trick unaware of its failures. But some branch of Christianity has made the trick into a full methodology of rhetorical garbage. Please don't be the latter.
-GJan 31 2012: Andrew,
Logic comes from the minds of human beings. Belief in gods, ghosts and goblins also comes from the minds of human beings. Humans are capable or creating both practical and impractical ways of explaining and attempting to influence the events that they see around them. Logic seems like a more practical approach to explaining the world around us than does superstition.
I take it that when you mentioned "TAG trick" you were referring to the transcendental argument for the existence of God. I found that entry in a list of 150 "TAG" acronyms. Yes, that seems to be where Andrew was going when he asked where logic comes from.Jan 28 2012: Peter, this issue will not go anywhere as long as the pro-God camp and the pro non-God camp cannot agree on certain basic rules for fruitful debates. Imagine in a game of soccer, players do not know what amounts to a unfair tackle or an offsite, how can the game become fair and watchable let alone beautiful? Will the rules for such a discussion be agreed by both parties now? I don't think so
Jan 28 2012: Hi kwang.
The usual answer is a neutral referee, but where do we find one of those ?
kk oneworld
Jan 29 2012: I think we will not be able to find one that both parties will be happy about, so the only way is to continue the scientific work to prove or disproved existence of God, in the same way it took Christopher Columbus to prove that the world is round and not flat by embarking on the, then considered foolish journey, by the public.
- +1
Unfortunately, this is the only route because fact based argument is gaining more and more acceptance. Just like President Obama says, "You are entitled to your own views, but you are not entitled to your own facts"
Jan 29 2012: Hi Kwang,
As we learn more about the world, things should become more focused. I invite you to watch this short video about how a very small part of our bodies function.
Does it really seem deluded to infer a degree of intelligent planning behind this sort of system. Possibly we should also remember that there are trillions of such functions coming together & working in concert to make the whole machine (no other word for it) function.
:-)Jan 29 2012: Does it really seem deluded to infer a degree of intelligent planning behind this sort of system? Yes. Very.
As you can see in the wehi.edu animations, the scientific community is just now starting to truly understand the deep complexity of cellular mechanics. So clearly, we don't have the required information to make any conclusions about the origins of these complex machines. And to automatically suggest that the most plausible (or only) explanation for their presence is that they were consciously evoked into existence by the god of abraham, or any other god(s), is not a suggestion based on courage and curiousity or a genuine desire to find truth, but a suggestion based on superstition and a fear of the unknown. It is a "god of the gaps" argument.
As I'm sure you're aware, "god of the gaps" is a phrase used to describe the tendency of theists of various religious persuations to conclude that a god(s) is/are responsible for phenomena human knowledge has not yet explained. When these gaps are filled, the theist jumps to the next gap and the game can continue ad nauseam until human knowledge is able to explain everything.
It is far more likely that the complex structures found in modern day life evolved from very simple ones millions of years ago, with various ingredients interacting under different environmental conditions.
Consider this:
The gaps are getting smaller everyday. Perhaps one day we will all be able to humbly work together toward a common goal, undivided by superstition... and delusion.
Gabo Moreno
Jan 30 2012: I think there nothing more neutral than evidence. But creationists have created a series of mental shields against looking at it.
- +2
Jan 30 2012: I've always wondered, aside from those who shield themselves because they genuinely believe, I wonder how many others shield themselves because they're opportunistically religious, or just trying to save face.Jan 27 2012: Hi Christian,
Like the name by the way. For a basically atheistic website there sure is no shortage of conversations on religion. The comments below are typical; more or less daring any god botherer to put his/her head above the parapet, at which point a feeding frenzie will ensue.
There is little scope for reasonable dialog with such animosity. What I can't figure is why you folk keep bringing the subject up ? After all we are talking about something that doesn't exist; right ?
Jan 28 2012: Is it confrontational for a psycho-therapist to inform a patient that there are no gremlins under the bed? I am not being confrontational. Actually, on the contrary, my argument here is precisely how to present the facts that certain beliefs are delusional, without being condescending or mean about it. It's an important issue, as some might argue that it is unwise to allow destructive fantasies to be indulged by society and be allowed the opportunity to get injected into governmental policies, and more importantly, into the minds of innocent children.
We are talking about something that does exist, which is, what some might refer to as, "a large portion of earth's religiously ill population" - this is much different than arguing that "god doesn't exist", which is obviously a pointless argument. What I think about a god(s) and/or afterlife doesn't matter. What does matter, is what people should not be establishing as fact, in this case, anything based on religious dogma.
I can see how all this can be misconstrued as having animosity. But really, it's all about being as honest as you can about reality.
Jan 28 2012: Hi Christian.
Do you honestly expect to dissuade religious folks from their worldview by telling them that they are delusional ? Whether they are or nor is irrelevant, it is not a good approach. When it comes right down to it neither atheism, nor regimes which try to subdue free thought, have a very successful track record. You need to ask what are you going replace it with ?
Historically we have seen the slaughter of millions of Jews & Christians by various well meaning social systems. What we learn from this; or we should if we are paying attention; is that Judaism & Christianity come out stronger than ever. So what is the answer ? To me we must live with an attitude of love & tolerance for our fellow man. We can converse rationally & politely, & respect the other guy's opinion. Mr Dawkin's rant about mental illness, stupidity, & evil smacks of anger & panic. It is not the way to win hearts & minds; which is the only option if you want to spread the gospel of Atheism .
Jan 29 2012: To start, I am not telling anyone to proclaim "Okay! There is no god! We are nothing but dust! Woe is me!" I know you would like to dismiss this thread with a standard atheist stereo-type by fitting it into a religious framework by calling atheism a belief or gospel. That is wrong.
Continuing; so, is a schizo who believes that invisible gremlins are trying to kill him expressing a world view, or a delusion?
You are right though, a delusional person probably would not like being called delusional, because their fantasies are real to them, I understand.
So I guess my purpose with this argument is not so much to directly address those who are hopelessly delusional, but rather, sane people who already have doubts about the delusional ideas that their family/friends/community are trying to impose on them. I'm addressing anyone who has influential power on how our consensus reality is shaped.
We need to stop giving delusional institutions special treatment with things like tax-free status, written acknowledgement on our national currency, and the general respect they get for their "faith", which is somehow regarded as some kind of deep and examined frame of mind, when it is actually one of the most shallow of experiences, because by definition, faith, the religious kind, is completely unexamined - it is a state of choice. It is the willful suspension of critical thought.
As such, we need to push religion (which is trying to establish a reality based on superstition) off into the fringes of society, with other things like cults and such, right where it belongs. If we truly value honesty and courage, we must embrace the statement "I don't know", and replace religion with questions and curiousity, like "why?" and "how?".
Like I said before, I am not being mean, I'm just being stern. It is unwise to patronize the delusional, otherwise you get things like children who live in fear of gremlins, and that is mental abuse. Let's stop mentally abusing children please.Jan 29 2012: "Historically we have seen the slaughter of millions of Jews & Christians by various well meaning social systems."
That is because, throughout history, psychopaths have a tendancy of being in control of those various, supposedly well-meaning social systems, like they are today:
The slaughter of millions of Jews & Christians has nothing to do with how secular that system might be. So that diffuses your argument that Judaism & Christianity are somehow the proper and only legitimate foundation for civilization.
On the contrary, in a secular system, the leaders can not scapegoat their psychopathy with their religious ideology like they did during the inquisition, or like they're doing in some places today in the mid-east.
"To me we must live with an attitude of love & tolerance for our fellow man. We can converse rationally & politely, & respect the other guy's opinion."
True. But people can accomplish this without being delusional.
"Mr Dawkin's rant about mental illness, stupidity, & evil smacks of anger & panic."
Rightly so. We can not risk granting a delusional person control of THE BUTTON. It's a nightmare that gets closer and closer every election season.
Peace.Jan 29 2012: Hi Christian,
I guess if I lived in Salt Lake I may be a bit jumpy as well. You guys over the pond sure are more worked up than folks over here in the uk.. You live in a democracy, why not just vote for an Athiest government, or is the problem that most of your countrymen are also delusional. That must be really tough on you sane guys. Glad I'm in the UK. Lol
Gabo Moreno
Jan 30 2012: This is not an atheistic website. It is a place where people with big ideas (however the organizers might have defined what a big idea might be) come and talk about them. If atheism is prevalent, I do not know, maybe. But if so, it would be accidental.
- +3
As for discussing a lot about the gods issue (nothing particularly important about not believing a single god, so why should I say "God" rather than "gods"?), well, everyone has the right to a hobby. :)
Well, that and the problem of people spreading misinformation about science in order to support mythologies, be it Christian mythology, Muslim mythology, or whichever. I see misinformation, I get the urge to set things straight. I did not become a scientist only to suffer silently the misinformation that creationist quacks love spreading all over the place.Jan 27 2012: My view is ,we all take stake on our own belief actually,to make a choice,and do something which seems to be related with it.To bid our belief to a specific direction.
Just think about how the religion comes about?It is just the need of governing the people who don't have a specific reason for being governed.And I regard the religion-choosing as a kind of investment,sounds ridiculous...For example,suppose there is a criminal just be released from jail,he wants to start a new life,and there is a religion says to him,"Our God tolerate the people who make mistakes.",and also there is another religion says to him,"If u believe our God,u will make a fortune.",I bet that this criminal would choose the first,because what the first says is more attractive than the second,making this guy invests his used-to-be blank belief in the first.If u are an Atheist,that means u haven't invest any in ur belief.
Yes WE have the freedom to choose our God,but this choice mostly depends on what u did.
Once someone balance the spiritual with the material,there is coming the fraud.Jan 27 2012: Someone in my city was injured yesterday and is in critical condition. In response, people have been invited to gather in prayer at a location nearby. I understand, people need connection and a sense of community. This is fundamental to human nature. So, while optimism and support are always vital in situations like these, especially for those closest to the victim, is there a way to achieve this without the superficial pretense of prayer?
I can understand vocalizing your will over a difficult situation that you are powerless to control, but to make an emotional appeal to an entity to resolve event X (in the victim's favor) when that entity is responsible for creating an environment where event X *can* occur, thereby *allowing* it to occur, is ridiculous, and probably delusional.
The person died. guess prayer didn't help. how tragic for his wife and children. may they find the strength and will to recover.


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Department of PsychologyFranklin Science Center 114
Shippensburg University
1871 Old Main Drive
Shippensburg, PA
(717) email@example.com
Please note: The Psychology Department has changed its Graduate Program, effective Fall 2010. The degree that will be awarded is now an M.S. in Psychological Science and students must declare 1 of 3 tracks by the Fall semester of their second year. Students who were actively participating in the graduate program prior to Fall 2010 may 1) complete the old program or 2) elect to move into one of the new tracks and graduate with the new degree. All students entering the Graduate Program in Fall 2010 or after, or students electing to move into the new program, will follow the new program guidelines described below. The Psychology department offers a graduate degree in Psychological Science. Students must commit to 1 of 3 tracks by the beginning of their second year.
The first track, Research Track, is appropriate for those students seeking degrees beyond the Masters level. This track allows students to specialize in a subarea of psychology via elective selection and completion of a thesis (Thesis I and II). The thesis requirement will increase students' potential for acceptance into doctoral level programs and is required for the degree.
The second track, Applied Track, is appropriate for graduate students who are trying to secure employment in industry, government, or non-profits. Students have opportunities to take courses with more applied emphases (e.g., Human Factors and Cognitive Science) and have two semesters of real-world experience (Field Experience I and II) in industry settings. Successful completions of Field Experience I and II are required for the degree.
The third track, General/Reading Track, is designed to meet the needs of those seeking credentials or advancement in their current place of employment. Students will take basic required scientific courses, fulfill cluster requirements, and take additional coursework to broaden their scope. Their competence will be demonstrated by passing a comprehensive exam. Passing the competency exam is required for the degree.
It should be clearly understood that we do not provide training or accreditation for those interested in employment in counseling or clinical psychology upon completion of a Master's degree. If that is your area of interest, please see Counseling Department in the College of Education and Human Services. Ten (10) courses (30 credits) are the minimum required for graduation. By taking 9 credits each semester, one can complete the program in two years. You may take longer if you wish. By taking summer courses, it may be possible to complete the requirements in less time, but the department cannot guarantee that relevant courses for your particular goals will be offered during the summer sessions.
This page is an official publication of Shippensburg University: A member of the Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education.
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The Sweetwater Police Department recently had their 2012 Cook-Off with four categories including salsa, chili, wings and dessert.
Judges for the competition were Former Chief of Police Jim Kelley, current Chief of Police Brian Frieda, Sharon Gardner, Curt Crisp and Tatiana Rodriguez. Judges has to consider appearance, smell, taste and texture for each category and scored between 1-10 for each entry.
Winners of the contest were Cory Stroman for salsa, Todd Jones for chili, Jeremy Bohall for wings and Melinda Moncada for dessert.


text:
Goals: En route to its primary science target at Saturn, scientists used a fortunate encounter with 2685 Masursky to investigate the asteroid's size and dimensions, and albedo of an object too small to accurately measure from Earth. It also provided a chance to test the spacecraft's object-targeting capabilities.
Accomplishments: Cassini flew within 1.5 million km of 2685 Masursky in Janurary 2000. Scientists made more detailed size estimates of Masursky -- about 15-20 km in diameter -- and found evidence it may have unexpected properties.


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What she doesn't tell Reacher - but what he soon discovers - is that a very real and deadly team of assassins has just put the VP in their sights and will stop at nothing to realize their objective. These men have planned well, but they haven't planned on Reacher. For only Reacher has the head and the heart to corner his prey and bring them to justice - without fail.
Don't miss any of Jack Reacher's adventures.
©2004 Lee Child; (P)2004 Brilliance Audio
"The book is a joyride for listeners, full of false leads, dead ends, concussive bursts of action, and characters who are fully realized and individual. This is as much fun as an audiobook performance can be." (AudioFile)
"The sixth time's a charm for thriller meister Child, whose latest escapade starring ex-military cop Jack Reacher is handily his most accomplished and most compelling to date." (Publisher's Weekly)
"…a thriller of unequaled emotional depth." (Booklist)
"Series is getting better."
I'm listening to the books in order, so I don't know what's coming, only what's come before, but this is a better novel than the ones before it. Jack Reacher is a wandering hero with an absolutist, but not always convincing, sense of justice, who somehow always finds trouble. He's a fun hero without a lot of complexity, so you're unlikely to find yourself changed by this novel, or staying awake nights working out the ethical connundrums or processing the intellectual insights you've learned. Just a fun listen. It's more John Wayne than Martin Scorcesse, in other words.
This story gets more complicated and less dramatically unbelievable than his previous works, and Reacher, while still retaining his superhero status, loses some of the invincible omniscience of Child's earlier novels. That's not to say he is any less heroic or more ambiguous, just that the story itself is a little more believably written--once past the unlikely premise of an outsider becoming part of the Secret Service's inner sanctum, that is.
The plotting is better, the mystery more hidden and intriguing, and the characters a little harder to get a firm grip on, than in previous novels. In short, Child is becoming a better writer. He still relies on his detailed descriptions of weapons or plots or strategies to add credibility and stretch out suspense, and from the reviews it seems some people hate this. I think it adds to the story and gives it more weight.
Overall, a good book for thriller/adventure serial fiction. The writing itself is better than average without pretension, the storytelling is always engaging and suspenseful, and the emotional ride is satisfying. Not a bad place to dive into the series if you are new, either--it doesn't rely on past knowledge to make the story work.
The reader is okay. Terrible with female characters. Makes them whiny even when the story doesn't. He's good with the flow of the story, though. Good travel listening.
In a few years I would take it up again because it kept me riveted start to finish. very good, very logical, good suspense, good romance.
Among the Reacher novels this one is the best. can't compare it to other books.
Yes. this was great, as expected.
No..just a satisfaction after a good story is wrapped up the right way.
Retired former magazine editor who is working harder than ever as Mr. Dad to his 12-year-old daughter.
"A little different than previous Reacher novels"
One of the nice things about Child's Reacher series is that they are not carbon copies of each other. Without Fail had a plot twist that none of the previous stories had. That's about all I can say about it without spoiling things. But the consistent thing about the Reacher novels and the thing that keeps me listening to them is the ultimate triumph of good over evil and Reacher's superhero exploits. Another satisfying listen.
"3 ½ or 4 stars, can't decide."
Reacher didn't beat up as many thugs as I would have liked, but I still enjoyed it.
Someone is threatening Armstrong, the newly elected Vice President. Froelich is in charge of the Secret Service team protecting him. She used to date Reacher's brother who told her about Reacher's talents and abilities. She hires Reacher to test her security and then to help with the current threat. Reacher hires one of his army buddies to help.
Another good suspenseful exciting escape with tough guys' tough guy Reacher. I'm doing all of them in order and enjoying each one. However, this one did drag a bit in the middle. It took a long time (most of the book) to solve the mystery and find the bad guys. I think there were only two scenes where Reacher was beating up or shooting bad guys. Other Reacher books had more than that, so I was disappointed. Instead this book is mostly wondering who could be doing this and how are they going to catch them. But it's better than no Reacher at all. The ending is good. We know Reacher will win because there are sequels.
I liked the way Reacher hung up on the bad guy when the bad guy wanted to talk to Reacher. The Secret Service boss was angry because he had asked Reacher to keep the bad guy on the phone for as long as possible, but Reacher didn't. Reacher explained it's a game. There were a few other chuckling moments as well.
Narrator: Dick Hill was very good.
Series: This is book 6 in the Jack Reacher series.
Genre: Mystery suspense thriller.
Ending: Good.
In a few years I would take it up again because it kept me riveted start to finish. very good, very logical, good suspense, good romance.
Among the Reacher novels this one is the best. can't compare it to other books.
Yes. this was great, as expected.
No..just a satisfaction after a good story is wrapped up the right way.
I would rather listen to a Reacher novel than do most other things, and that is true of this book as well; but the novel is oddly lacking in action. The bad guys are not encountered in person until the very end, and Jack spends a lot of time discussing his feelings, which is not what I look to a Reacher novel for. I am glad I listened, and Reacher fans will not want to skip it, but it is not up there with the best ones.
"What's not to like"
I haven't been disappointed yet, listening to the Jack Reacher novels. He's truly an interesting character, and Dick Hill brings him to life. This is another suspenseful "who's the bad guy?' story, that keeps you guessing til the end. Don't want to give anything away, except, if you follow the series, don't miss out on this one.
Only thing that really bugs me.....I really wish Reacher would do some laundry and quit throwing away good clothes.
"Good, but not the best."
This book is not my favorite of Lee Child's Jack Reacher novels but still good. If you have not yet had the pleasure of meeting Child's action star Jack Reacher, I would not start with this one, but for those who already like the well written, ever engrossing Reacher series this is worth the time.
"lots of talking & meeting"
Lots and lots of talking, group meetings of strategy, motives, acting and reacting and it does on and on...to the point it became somewhat boring. the book was somewhat agreeable but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for future listening or reading.
Retired CFO, Army wife, Mom of five, Grandma of six, two sons who served in combat, love to read books that reflect my values and faith, love mysteries, historical, military stories, and books that don't waste my time . . . if it doesn't have an ending that was worth the wait, I'm not a happy camper.
"Jack Reacher does it again"
Excellent story line, great narration, Jack Reacher does it again with his off-the-grid stealth and past military experience. This series by Lee Child is first rate. I had to deduct one star for the rather abrupt ending . . . would have liked a smoother finish . . . but well worth the listen.
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Hush Full Bed
by Blu Dot
At A Glance:
The Hush Full Bed is the kind of piece that can transition easily from genre to genre. Padded side rails and a wafer-thin upholstered headboard are supported by a brushed stainless steel base, with wood slats providing support for your mattress. No box spring needed, the Hush Bed is an understated note of peace and quiet in a noisy world.
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Materials & MeasurementsMaterials: Padded solid hardwood and plywood frame, steel base, wood slats
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text:
Search Health Information
Asthma Solution CenterSearch Health Information
A Disease Often Misdiagnosed as Asthma
Emphysema is a lung disease that affects the walls of the alveoli, the small sacs in the lungs that exchange oxygen for carbon dioxide.
Emphysema causes the alveolar walls to lose their elasticity. This causes small pockets of dead air to remain in the lungs and makes it difficult to exhale air from the lungs. Most emphysema cases are caused by smoking, but about 3 percent of cases are caused by an inherited deficiency in a protein that normally protects the alveoli. This protein is alpha-1 antitrypsin (AAT). In emphysema caused by AAT deficiency, the small airways that lead to the alveoli are also damaged.
In the normal lung, chemicals called proteases are produced by the body's immune system to protect the lungs from infection. Two types of proteases are elastase and trypsin. If the concentration of proteases in the lungs is too great, they can attack healthy lung tissue, destroying elastin, a substance necessary to maintain the elasticity, or flexibility, of the alveoli. AAT neutralizes the proteases, the most important being elastase, and protects the elastin.
Produced in the liver
AAT is produced by the liver and released into the bloodstream.
In people with AAT deficiency, elastase attacks the walls of the alveoli, causing irreversible damage. If allowed to progress, lung tissue continues to be destroyed, and eventually fatal emphysema develops.
The first signs of AAT deficiency often appear between the ages of 20 and 40. The first symptoms are usually shortness of breath, wheezing following activity, and a decreased ability to exercise.
There is a key difference in this type of emphysema versus the common emphysema that many smokers battle. The AAT deficiency emphysema is found throughout the lungs. The smoker's emphysema is found in the central airway of the lungs. As the disease becomes severe, both types of emphysema look very much the same. Both have low levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide retention.
Mistaken for asthma
If a patient with chronic obstructive airways disease responds well to bronchodilators, health care providers say they have an "asthmatic component. Patients with AAT deficiency-related emphysema respond to bronchodilators, and they are often relatively young when they see a doctor about their symptoms, so they are often diagnosed with asthma.
Diagnosis of AAT deficiency is suspected when emphysema develops at a young age and in a person with a family history of lung disease at a young age. A simple breathing test that measures how forcefully a person exhales can help make the diagnosis. Testing for AAT deficiency includes measuring the amount of AAT in the blood and testing for the type of AAT genes.
Protein treatment
Once AAT deficiency is diagnosed, treatment will require weekly intravenous infusions of the proteins, which come from human plasma donors.
Replacement therapy is not entirely effective in all cases. For those people, lung transplants offer hope. Approximately one fourth of all lung transplants are alpha-1 adults.
Patients also go through pulmonary rehabilitation. With pulmonary rehabilitation, they will learn different techniques of clearing sputum, the proper use of medications, and how to increase their exercise for more efficient use of oxygen.
The Z gene
In the most common type of alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency, a person inherits one Z gene from each parent. In the United States there are an estimated 100,000 people with the alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency ZZ gene expression.
Online ResourcesGenetics Home Reference http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/alpha-1-antitrypsin-deficiency
The Alpha-1 International Registry http://www.aatregistry.org/aatdetailed.html
American Association for Clinical Chemistry http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/alpha1_antitrypsin/test.html
American Lung Association http://www.lungusa.org/lung-disease/copd/
National Center for Biotechnology Information http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001153/
National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/diseases/copd/copd_whatis.html


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(0 reviews)
|Tool Warranty
|5 Years
|Charge Time
|30 Minutes
|Temperature Range
|14 to 662°F (-10 to 350°C)
|Safety Category Rating
|Visual Camera
|Screen Refresh Rate
|60 Times Per Second
|Data Storage
|2GB SD Card. Upgradeable to 32GB
|Thermal Sensitivity
|0.1°C at 30°C
|Minimum Focus Distance
|Focus Method
|Manual Focus Ring
|Color Palletes
|Iron, Rainbow, Gray
|Auto and Manual. Scaling with level and span.
|IP Ratings
|Field of View
|25° x 19°
|External Software
|Yes. The Milwaukee Thermal Imager Report Software provides analysis and reporting functionality. Compatible with Windows 7, Vista and XP.
|Thermal Imager Report Software File
|Export images in jpeg format. Reports are downloaded as pdf files.
|Switch Type
|On/Off Button
|Battery Life
|> 4 Hours
|Auto Battery Off
|After 5 minutes, the LCD will turn off. After 20 minutes, the entire Thermal Imager will turn off.
|Battery Type
|12 Volt Lithium Ion
|Display Resolution
|160 X 120 pixels
|LCD Display
|3.5" Color LCD (640 x 480)


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Nb: infants must be under the age of 2 and
children must be under the age of 12 at the time of
The perfect skier's hotel, the Furggen is on the piste so you can ski down to the lifts and right back to the hotel at the end of the day. It is modern, well furnished and relaxing, with a spacious lounge/bar and superb views over the village. The centre is a 15 min walk, but the hotel provides a free shuttle bus from 18.00 to 23.30.
35 bedrooms. Bright, well furnished rooms with small bath or shower, telephone, satellite TV, safe and balcony.
Iglu acts as a travel agent for disclosed principals/tour operators, further details
of which will be made available at the time of booking. Your holiday contract will
be bound by the tour operators terms and conditions.
Prices are shown for a basic room or unit, can be subject to change and are indicative
until time of booking. Please call on 020 8544 7114 for prices for other travel
and room options for this property.
Prices shown are per person per week based on maximum occupancy. Descriptions and
quality ratings are provided by the Tour Operator (or one of the Tour Operators
where similar holidays are offered by more than one supplier). We reserve the right
to make minor adjustments to the description or rating based on staff and customer
feedback. For payments by credit card, a 2.5% credit card charge (4% for AMEX) will
be added to your invoice. If you pay by a UK issued debit card, there is no charge.
All bookings are subject to a £5 per person Passenger Admin Fee charged by Iglu.com.


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In Between Days (Die Besucherin)
A devoted scientist and family woman finds her life suddenly jumping off the rails after making a shocking discovery about her sister's disheveled apartment. Anges is a woman who thrives on order: Her career is going well, her marriage to husband Walter is a happy one, and her relationship with adoring daughter Leni is a picture of motherly love. Though her career and personal life don't leave her as much time to spend with sister Karola as she would like, the pair get along like old friends and rarely quarrel. One day, Karola announces that she is going away for a while, and requests that Agnes water her plants in her absence. Upon visiting the apartment, Agnes observes that it appeared to be abandoned in haste. Gradually, Agnes begins to feel mysteriously drawn to the apartment, visiting on a regular basis and eventually assuming an air of ownership over the place. Upon discovering that the apartment in fact belongs to a married couple, Agnes begins to investigate. Apparently, the wife had died on her way to a rendezvous with her lover, and in his grief husband Bruno had simply abandoned the flat and moved on with his life. After falling asleep in the apartment one day, Agnes awakens to the touch of a man lying in bed beside her. It's Bruno. While the two nary exchange a glance, much less their names, they instinctively make love. But things start to change for Agnes once she begins to visit Bruno on a regular basis, and she begins to feel as if she is simply drifting as Bruno struggles to repress his grief. Her home life falling apart in the wake of her secret affair, Agnes begins to live with Bruno like normal lovers despite the fact that both release the ultimate futility of their clandestine relationship.~ Jason Buchanan, All Movie Guide
Cast: Isabel Metz, André Jung, Jule Böwe, Samuel Finzi, Sylvana Krappatsch
Produced by:
Directed by: Lola Randl
Written by:
Running time: 1hr 44min
|Theaters for Today
Pick a day
on this day.


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If you have all the right equipment to do this type of work then fine.
If not, then actually you are not only yanking our chain but your own as well.
If you don't even have a "biz" then I am here to tell you that building cages will merely be a fleeting moment in the grand scope of being a welding business. It is just "sizzle". You don't want to expect to base your lifestyle on this, so don't let it enter into your thinking unless you have been working for a PRO cage builder and are now breaking out on your own.
The money for those types of projects dries up overnight quite frequently.
I build cages/headers when I can and the money is there, but I never make it a priority because there normally isn't enuff of that to feed the family if you know what I mean. Way too many hours for the money that it brings unless you are working for known "pros"....and if you were we wouldn't be having this discussion.
If you was me, you would build things of that nature (cages, fuel tanks etc..) for cash only with no receipts and I also have a very bad@$$ brother in law I threaten them with as well
You should maybe sponsor one to test the water first. If you aren't willing to do that then chances are you wouldn't care much for it anyway.
Most everyone I sponsored..... I pretty much was able to remember what a looser way to make money racing is. And I have thirty years of that now.
BTW....you can pretty much get sued for making ANYTHING on a car that modifies it from stock when you really think about it.
Results 11 to 20 of 24
Thread: Liability/Insurance question
Miller Dynasty 700...OH YEA BABY!!
Miller Dynasty 280 with AC independent expansion card
Miller Dynasty 200 DX "Blue Lightning"
Miller Bobcat 225 NT (what I began my present Biz with!)
Miller 30-A Spoolgun
Miller WC-115-A
Miller Spectrum 300
Miller 225 Thunderbolt (my first machine bought new 1980)
Miller Digital Elite Titanium 9400
11-25-2009, 12:28 PM #12Junior Member
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
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- 18
Thanks for the advice, I never thought of the cash-no-paper trail approach. As grubby as that seems its probablly the safest. I do have the equipment/exeprience to do it, that isn't the problem, nor will my biz be based solely on motorsports, in fact most of my business is based on agricultural and trailer fabrication/repair, but with the opening of a local race track and the fact that sanctioned mud racing events around here are becoming popular, it is a part of the market noone has touched around here as of yet. So if I can add this line of work to my existing business it would possibly mean more money and something I am more interested in than rebuilding disc harrows. I just want to cover myself, as I know insurance for this kind of fabrication is, just like well head/hot tie in insurance, a seperate policy on top of liability. If something of mine does fail on a harrow its not a big deal, however I get a call for a guy who put his car into a guardrail at 100mph, thats a different issue. Everyone nowadays looks for a scapegoat and to pass liability, I just want to know that at the end of the day I can still go to my house which isnt repoed for lawyer defense fees. (Yes I know incorperating can prevent this)
I am a person who prepares for the worst, I also work with police and lawyers quite often so I know what people are capable of it they dont want to accept responsibility for their own actions. EG: a guy buys a mountain bike with a sticker on the bike that is clear coated over that says ride with a helmet and use a light at night, then runs into the back of a parked jeep and sues for the dealer not verbally telling him those warning, (yes he was literate) and his wife also sued on top for not being ***ually satisfied while he was in the cast. She got 250k, last I heard he was in the millions.
I wasn't saying that not having insurance was the way to go, just that I don't worry too much about product liability. I still have insurance.
It won't do me or anyone else a darn bit of good in the event of negligence, because they won't pay if you're letting dangerous stuff go out the door. That's all I'm saying.Syncrowave 250DX
Invison 354MP
XR Control and 30A
Airco MED20 feeder
Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 81
Smith O/A rig
And more machinery than you can shake a 7018 rod at
If you have a car, property, 401k, bank account, or any other tangible assets, or plan on ever being employed in your lifetime, you are NOT judgment proof.
I repeat because this is important...
If you have a car, property, 401k, bank account, or any other tangible assets, or plan on ever being employed in your lifetime, you are NOT judgment proof.
I can assure you that there is a lawyer somewhere willing to take the case against you no matter how un-wealthy you think you are. And if the court finds for the plaintiff, it will look into every dime you own, will ever own, and can garnish future wages as well.
A judgment against a healthy young entrepreneur is guaranteed money in the bank. It's like an annuity. Don't think for a second that nobody will take the case because they can't get the lump sum tomorrow, especially in hard times like these when deep pockets are harder to come by.
80% of failures are from 20% of causes
Never compromise your principles today in the name of furthering them in the future.
"All I ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work." -Sgt. Bilko
"We are generally better persuaded by reasons we discover ourselves than by those given to us by others." -Pascal
"Since we cannot know all that there is to be known about anything, we ought to know a little about everything." -Pascal
11-25-2009, 03:53 PM #15Senior Member
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Location
- Lodi, CA
- Posts
- 1,315
Remember, a court case, whether you are in the right or in the wrong, is gonna cost you money. You still have to pay the lawyer, the expert witnesses, etc.
My commercial insurance policy (which I pay plenty for), covers two commercial trucks (unable to cover on personal insurance policy), inland marine, which covers personal business property, and whatever customer's property entrusted to me), general liability (which covers me for anything stupid I might do, either here or on a customer's location), and completed operations and products. Both the general liability, and the completed operations, are important. As long as I don't do anything specifically excluded (read the fine print), I am covered, this is a contract. About the only thing excluded in my policy, is nuclear power plants, I'm fine with that, no wish to do it anyway.
I have always, had a thing about insurance. You buy it for two reasons. One, to protect yourself, your own personal assets, your house, your personal property, your bank account, your 401k. ALSO, being in business, you have a responsibility, to "make right" anybody you could have harmed, through your activities. Not getting into the debate about frivolous lawsuits here,,,,, but if you weld a trailer hitch that breaks, you are morally responsible if not legally responsible, whatever LLC's or corporations you choose to hide behind, for the poor soccer mom and kids killed or severely injured, because of your inadequate work.
And doing "cash work", isn't completely valid,,,, unless, of course, you have means to eliminate all the witnesses .....
11-28-2009, 07:55 PM #16Senior Member
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- greenfield new hampshire
- Posts
- 895
jsfab and boddybagger
you two men are 100% correct, what you have said really spells it out, i have a llc, and a policy, being a small business, the llc and corporate stuff does not offer much protection, if i messed up and hurt someone the llc would be ripped thru with ease to get to me in the court room, any one can sue anyone so if there is a frivolous law suit, the guy with insurance calls his agent and it goes on from there, if you DONT have insurance you are in a real mess, you will need to retain an attorney, he will want a retainer, frivolous suits generally sue for at least a 6 didget figure, take a guess on what that retaining fee would be, read the 2 previous post, they are right on. good luck with your venture, but dont go uninsured. kevin
I have a portable welding truck and I have my Truck insurance, for 1,200 a year, my liability insurance of $1,000,000 coverage for $6,900 a year. and property liability of 5,000,000 coverage for $15,000 A year a total of $23,100.
Food for thought:
If you are a contractor and you weld something that either breaks and ends up maiming or killing someone, or requires expensive rework (up to and including demolition and rebuilding) because you made bad welds that day, I have bad news for for you.
There is a VERY GOOD chance that your general liability coverage policy specifically excludes this, and you can legally be denied coverage.
Before you go thinking your general liability covers everything that happens to you in the course of doing business, ask yourself this question:
10 or 15 years ago, did you assume that your homeowner's policy covered flood damage?
Well, now we all are wiser and even kindergartners know flood damage is almost always excluded and requires (expensive) separate flood insurance.
If a loss is caused by professional misjudgment, error, or omission, it will generally only be covered by contractor's errors and omission.
Much the same way that a surgeon's general liability policy will not cover him if he cuts off the wrong leg... that is only covered by medical malpractice insurance.
In insurance, as well as legal matters, assumptions can be very expensive.
80% of failures are from 20% of causes
Never compromise your principles today in the name of furthering them in the future.
"All I ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work." -Sgt. Bilko
"We are generally better persuaded by reasons we discover ourselves than by those given to us by others." -Pascal
"Since we cannot know all that there is to be known about anything, we ought to know a little about everything." -Pascal
12-07-2009, 02:03 PM #19Senior Member
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Location
- Lodi, CA
- Posts
- 1,315
12-10-2009, 02:56 AM #20Senior Member
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- Mar 2009
- Location
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OK first thing I know in business is where liability is concerned or possibly concerned, distance yourself and personal property by creating a buisness CORP or LLC.
"IWeldSTUFF LLC" is like its own person to the law.
A good place for help is the Small Business Association, they give free help and mentoring. http://www.sba.gov/
If you do this correctly you can not lose your home and personal bank accounts due to business failure, not true in case of businesses created for the purpose of fraud. But good for accidental injury and property damage. You will be required to maintain your local licensing for what ever work you are doing, ie: contractor ect. and insurances the local laws require. This may not be much and may be a massive amount depending on your local laws.


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Montgomery County Public Schools Superintendent Joshua P. Starr said he believes there is no one-size-fits-all approach to school and student success.
Starr and his team have designed a plan for next school year that will allow central office staff to step in when they see problems, or potential, at individual schools.
Twenty schools will be named "intervention" schools and work with a specialist to improve specific student outcomes next school year. Of those, 10 have been named "innovation" schools, and will receive extra support from central office to boost their current school improvement plan.
Although the schools were initially narrowed down by student performance, school officials say other factors played into the selection, and the schools should not be labeled as underperforming.
The 10 innovation schools are: Clopper Mill, Strathmore and Watkins Mill elementary schools; Argyle, A. Mario Loiederman and Montgomery Village middle schools; John F. Kennedy, Springbrook and Watkins Mill high schools; and the alternative programs.
The school system is asking principals to apply for the 10 remaining intervention school spots, and wants to work with schools who already realize the support they need and the commitment it requires, said Beth Schiavino-Narvaez, deputy superintendent of the office of school support and improvement.
The school system will work with the schools to set goals for student performance, and will provide support such as professional development to see that the goals are met, she said.
In a way, the school system is seizing upon a moment of fairly lax school improvement requirements at the federal level to improve how it supports schools, Schiavino-Narvaez said.
Under the federal mandate, No Child Left Behind, local school systems were required to intervene in school operations when the school failed to make progress on state test scores. Maryland schools received a waiver last school year that excuses them from those requirements.
That system measured school progress using just one indicator of student success — test scores — and then required each constantly underperforming school to undergo similar changes, such as restructuring.
Starr said he would like to set up an individualized plan for each school that will build on the strengths and address the weaknesses of each school.
"This approach, we hope, is opposite to [the old one]," Schiavino-Narvaez said.
School system officials said at a school board meeting last week they hope that school communities see this as a positive.
Two principals — Scott Murphy, principal of Watkins Mill High, and Edgar Malker, principal of Montgomery Village Middle — said they understand that some anxiety may come in their community with their school being labeled.
However, both said they are excited about being included.
They said school system officials have been clear to them that they are stepping in to build upon their plan for school improvement, not to create a new one.
"I'm looking forward to sitting down with central office, and letting them hear our story, hear about our journey, and letting them know what that support is that we need," Malker said.
The school system narrowed down what schools would receive the support first by looking at student achievement indicators such as math and reading state test scores and ineligibility in high school, and then by looking at other "perceptual data" such as school leadership, professional development, climate, and new curriculum implementation, Schiavino-Narvaez said.
At Watkins Mill, Murphy said the International Baccalaureate Programme has been very successful, and the school culture is strong.
But the school also faces challenges, such as making sure all student groups are represented in advanced courses.
The school's improvement plan states that black and Hispanic students are underrepresented in honors, Advanced Placement and IB courses.
Montgomery Village Middle is very strong when it comes to identifying and practicing effective instruction, Malker said. One thing the school is looking to do is to increase student engagement, he said.
Both principals believe all supports and resources they receive will be aligned with the goals they are already working toward.
At Argyle Middle, sixth-grade team leader Casey Siddons said he considers this to be positive news for his school.
The test scores at the school do not reflect the great work the school is doing, and this will be an opportunity to share some of the great practices and programs the school has, Siddons said.
With a high percentage of low-income students and a high transient rate, the school struggles in areas that some other county schools don't, he said.
"This will give us the leg up," he said.
Principals and instructional leaders in the school will work directly with Rebecca Thessin, who will serve as the chief school improvement officer, to design a customized plan of support that is meant to build on the school's current school improvement plan.
As part of being named an "innovation" school, those 10 schools are also "intervention" schools, and will also work with a newly appointed intervention supervisor next school year, who will examine the success of individual student groups in the school, and help organize support to increase achievement.
Thessin will work closely with the intervention specialist, as well as the associate superintendent assigned to the school, the principal and instructional leadership team to see that everyone is working to the same goals, Schiavino-Narvaez said.
The interventions plan is meant to help address the achievement gaps between students of different races.
When first hearing about the plan, some school board members said they were frustrated that there were not more specifics about new strategies the school system will be using to boost student achievement.
At last week's board meeting, board member Judith Docca continued to press the school system about specifics.
Before the end of this school year, a needs assessment will be done at each of the innovation schools, to start to detail out individual approaches, Schiavino-Narvaez said at the meeting.


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W&O, a Portland Oregon nonprofit, teaches youth and adults the fine art of building wooden boats. With an emphasis on the power of hands on learning to master new skills and demonstrate the importance and relevance of math, science, design and collaborative problem solving skills, Wind & Oar provides unique opportunities for students of all ages to know the joy of creating tangible works of beauty and function. It's bigger than the boat ~ learn how, watch video clip .
Wind & Oar is located in SE Portland, Oregon, with mobile courses for youth held in conjunction with community partners across the Portland Metro region. Learn more here.
Boat People
Wind & Oar wouldn't exist without our amazing staff and board of directors. These wonderful people make everything we offer possible. Are you a boat person? Become a volunteer!
Working with wooden boats is an incredibly rewarding experience. You'll learn new skills and meet new people, but you don't have to take our word for it. See what our students have to say and share about their experiences. See what our partners are sharing.
Get Involved
Community involvement and support are the backbone of the Wind & Oar Boat School. Your gift, large or small, is what enables us to teach the power of hands on learning and a commitment to environmental stewardship. Learn more here.


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This high school football season has produced several memorable plays, but only one can be The News-Sentinel Play of the Year.
The News-Sentinel High School Football Play of the Year recognizes the best plays from Fort Wayne area teams and players during the 2012 season and gives fans the opportunity to determine the winner through online voting on the newspaper's website, news-sentinel.com.
Online voting for the Play of the Year started Monday, and the polls will close at 8 p.m. Sunday. The Play of the Year winner will be announced in the Monday, Nov. 26 issue of The News-Sentinel.
Below are videos of the seven finalists for Play of the Year and the online poll for this inaugural award from The News-Sentinel.
Snider's Weston Painter interception touchdown run
Homestead's Isaac Griffith juking touchdown catch and run
Heritage's fake field goal touchdown throw
Churubusco's Jason Nicodemus stumbling game-winning TD vs. Fairfield
Bishop Luers' Chance Young pick-six interception
New Haven's Anthony Moore's bulldozing touchdown run
The Bishop Dwenger hitch-and-pitch touchdown
*Bishop Dwenger hitch-and-pitch video courtesy of WANE TV.


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HOME Kyle Busch Gear Kyle Busch Kids Kyle Busch Kids Preschool & Toddler $10 to $20 (8 items) Product ID: 1342298
Main Content
This item ships within two business days.
Your tot is going to look so cute supporting Kyle Busch in this Sweetheart tee! This Chase Authentics shirt features printed Busch-inspired graphics with glitter accents. Your youngster is going to grow up to be a major NASCAR fan and this T-shirt will guide her in that direction for sure!
- 100% Cotton
- Glitter accents
- Imported
- Officially licensed NASCAR product
- Screen print graphics
- Tagless collar
- Woven brand logo on left sleeve
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Special event items are produced by manufacturers only after the outcome of a game or event. These are advanced sale items and will ship immediately after they are received in our warehouse.
Manufacturer direct items are shipped directly from the manufacturer. These items are not available for international or expedited shipping.
Customized items can be personalized with options such as your name, your favorite number, and/or designs. Some options may be limited by league rules.


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I wanted to post a warning for anyone interested in teaching in Istanbul, Turkey. I have spent a couple years teaching English as a means of traveling the world and I must say, after teaching in Turkey, I may never return to that country again.
First of all, I was hired by SDM, a school in Istanbul. When I arrived in Istanbul the owner put me in contact with one of his teachers so I could stay with her while getting my apartment. She filled me in on all the shady details of working at that school (the owner hires females and then makes life extremely difficult for them if they don't sleep with him. Also, illegal activities such as building construction, cameras, and not paying employees take place.) After choosing not to work for SDM, the owner made numerous threats to both of us and kicked us out of her apartment (which he owned) with only 4 days notice. Later I found out from a friend that the nickname for this school is Sado and Masochism... wish I had known that before I was hired!
Because I love the history of Turkey and really wanted to stay, I next worked for ALTA (English 5). I also warn teachers not to work there- both SDM and ALTA participate in illegal activity. They will find every excuse NOT to pay you bonuses or your salary custody (1500 TL) and they won't give you the hours you negotiate in your interview. I was left scraping together everything I could for rent and food, because you don't know if you'll be working from week to week and you don't get enough money to save so you can have something to live off of while looking for another job.
If you are a single female like myself please avoid Turkey (or at the very least, avoid SDM and ALTA - English 5.) You will be manipulated and exploited by almost every person you meet. No joke. It sounds outlandish, I know, but it's the truth. I am extremely fortunate to have escaped that country (and that's exactly what it feels like, an escape.)
I have loved every country I've traveled to and lived in (China, Poland, Czech Republic...) EXCEPT for Turkey. Honestly, if you have an opportunity to go somewhere else, I highly recommend taking the other job. If you decide Turkey is where your heart is, then at least work for a university. Remember that a lot of schools in Turkey will make big promises but most of the time, your employers will be deceitful.


text: Ventura County Superior Court liaison report by Judge James Herman Jul 1, 2014 Judge Herman notes that this court is known for its innovations and its collaborative courts, which serve as a model for other courts, but the lack of funding has the court struggling to deliver services. The court has reduced staff by 20 percent, while handling a 10 percent increase in filings. Listen


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Turning to the nonfiction side, Audio Reviews Spotlight takes a peek at Stephen Colbert's America Again: Re-Becoming the Greatness We Never Weren't
The audio edition is narrated by Colbert, Tim Meadows, and Jordin Ruderban, and is available from Hachette Audio.
America Again: Re-Becoming the Greatness We Never Weren't
Stephen Colbert, read by the author, with Tim Meadows and Jordin Ruderban. Hachette Audio, unabridged, three CDs, 3 hrs., $24.98 ISBN 978-1-60788-970-0
The packaging of this audio edition of Comedy Central satirist Stephen Colbert's latest title features an icon promoting the recording's "3-D High-Def Surroundiness." While this claim clearly follows Colbert's pattern of tongue-in-cheek buzzwords and taglines, the production quality does contribute to a satisfying listening experience, as voices and sounds—including a stoner commentator's bubbling bong water—are distinctly rendered in the fashion of live theater. Colbert's narrative—steeped in his characteristic irony—weaves expository chapters on various hot-button issues with monologues from individual citizens. With the possible exception of the aforementioned stoner, the most memorable of these characters is a silver-tongued energy industry spokeswoman who embodies the very essence of spin in the current media culture. Colbert's brand of entertainment occupies a unique niche in the marketplace, and regardless of whether the punch lines click for individual listeners, the comedian's latest offering remains unmistakably faithful to that brand. A Grand Central hardcover. (Oct.)


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Baggallini Essential Wallet Bagg
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Baggallini was founded on the belief that Baggs can be functional and fun to carry.
Since their modest start, Baggallini has grown to be recognized as a worldwide leader in creating products that are incredibly organized and look as good as they perform.
This wallet features a removable wrist strap, back cell phone pocket with interior pockets. The main zipper opens flat.
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Product Materials: 100% nylon material, satin tape, metal hardware
Dimensions: 5.75" L x 4" W x 0.75" H; 0.25 lbs.
Baggallini Essential Wallet Bagg
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Football Hall Of Fame 2012: Curtis Martin, Chris Doleman, Willie Roaf Among Players Elected
A great Chief and a great football player.
|Thumbs Up
|Received: 37
Given: 35
Congrats to Willie Roaf!!!!
Well deserved!
|Thumbs Up
|Received: 6
Given: 3
Congratulations Willie Roaf!!!
Gratz to Willie. He was the absolute best at his position. He is second on my list of favorite former Chiefs.
And, for next year....
Originally Posted by article
|Thumbs Up
|Received: 6
Given: 3
2009 - D Thomas
2012 - Willie Roaf
2013 - Will Shields
20?? - Otis Taylor
|Thumbs Up
|Received: 577
Given: 786
Otis Taylor should have been in long ago.
|Thumbs Up
|Received: 6
Given: 3
So well deserved...a year too late, but we won't complain!
Diehard Fan Living in Packer Territory
Co-Founder: 2 Mugs Fantasy Football -- a site about and football!