text:
- Andrea Morisette Grazzini
- Burnsville, MN
- United States
CEO, WetheP, Inc.
This conversation is closed.
Are grownup bullies teaching kids how to bully?
Media personalities like Rush Limbaugh and Keith Olberman make a living by catalyzing the ire of their audiences through their incendiary tactics.
Leaders themselves, from pastors to politicians to parents to Tea Partiers and Black Panthers square off against different others.
Sparks are a flying, to say least.
And new movies like "The Hunger Games" and "Bully" provide brutal images that imply youth brutality can be catalyzed by adult cultures where competitive vitriol prevails.
Meanwhile, in the real world, communities and schools struggle to manage the bully-culture that has lead to increasingly more mental health concerns, if not more suicides by ostracized kids.
So, folks.
Who's to blame for bullying: kids, adults, both?
Who should lead the demise of cross-country bullying?
And the $10K Q: How?
Bullying, it seems knows no bounds. Thus, I hope this conversation doesn't get too bogged down on specific groups who suffer from bullying, but more on the larger contagions that seem to infecting many different segments of society.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts --
Roy Bourque
Apr 2 2012: I believe that bullying is either a learned response or resulting from inner conflict that has no outlet.
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Neo-Nazi, white supremacists, militant warriors are all taught at an early age who their enemies are. Whether it is true or not makes no difference, the student believes in the teacher. Bullying is a survival skill. The bully is less likely to be bullied.
I had a friend that was bullied in school. It was later found that the bully was being molested by a pedophile priest. His father was a prominent businessman and wanted his son to be special so he disciplined him harshly and forced him into being an altar boy so he would be above the others. The son didn't know how to tell his father the truth because he saw two outcomes; one - his father would beat him for telling a horrific lie (priests aren't like that) or two - his father would believe him, kill the priest and be in jail for murder. Unable to deal with either one, he took his anger out on others.
There was a local bully approached by the town sheriff. The bully acted all tough until the sheriff asked him if he wanted a job. The sheriff explained to the boy that the town stocked the local pond for tourists but kids were fishing out of season and depleting the pond. He was given a badge and explained what needed to be done. He was rewarded for good behavior and explained his faults. The boy went on to become a state trooper.
I went to a church social with three others to babysit kids who's parents went on a field trip. There was one boy all out of control. I wanted to give him a "what for" when the group leader decided to play a game. Realizing that this boy was hyper, he gave him the job of referee which would require considerable moving about. I was amazed how well this boy did the job. He simply needed something to direct his energy on and he was fine.
I have learned from these cases not to judge others based on behavior, but to try to determine what might be the cause.Apr 12 2012: I refuse to believe that any child is born "bad" or "evil". No two people will handle stress and pain in the exact same way. While teaching I have seen mothers proud of their daughters' "Queen Bee" status and defend cruel behavior as a normal part of adolescent behavior. This never failed to alarm me.
I continually say to all: those of us over thirty no longer have the emotional point of reference to equate our experience in middle or high school with that of today's youth. The culture of 24/7 contact creates a level of potential embarrassment and harassment that I would have never experienced. Creating stress levels for youth far above what I would have known and been able to cope with. However today's kids see it all as perfectly normal and "it is what it is" kind of attitude. The adolescent brain is wired for emotional action and reaction leaving the use of logic as a second choice, so add to this a constant contact with parents (perhaps bullying parents) teachers, friends, random acquaintances, and it's a recipe for pain.
The energy put into helping victims is vital, but there also needs to probably be ten times that energy put into working with and trying to understand the bullies as well. They are certainly victims of bullying somewhere in their life as well and have chosen to self-soothe in this way.They are hardened and find the topic of empathy pathetic and boring. They need help and protection from themselves and others, but their actions make it an "undesirable" task. And having worked with their parents who perpetuate the pride in their bully-child make it impossible to work with the parents. So, you are left with the child. The child. Who in all likelihood without intervention will grow to become the adult bully.
These are children, both bullies and victims, that are living an emotional, technological experience that we adults did not. I propose that we ask them. Then listen to them without our "expert" point of view of "how to be a teen".
Lisa Fairman
Apr 11 2012: What a great topic. Thank you for bringing this up. One thing I'd like to point out, is part of the problem lies in the very question Ms. Walstrom asks: "Who is to blame for bullying?" Finding out who is responsible doesn't get us anywhere. It feels good though doesn't it? The search for who did this? And then we get to punish them when we find out! We call it justice! But does it really solve our problem or take some of the pain away so we can put it on someone else for awhile? The relief never lasts though...and has yet to solve any of our kids' bullying problems or our leaders' bullying problems. Consider this...what if there was no one to blame? What if we didn't punish each other? What if we changed the way we fought even at the smallest, most intimate level, so that each fight created more closeness between people? I'm talking about fighting with your husband or wife... Fighting with your child, mother, and boss, fighting with the guy who cut you off in traffic, and fighting when you've had a bad day. What if we changed the way we fought each other as a nation so instead of blame and punishment, we had people suffering honestly and not trying to put it on anyone else. Can we fight to see each other clearer? I think this would influence our kids if they started seeing their parents, teachers, and classmates fighting to connect with each other, instead of fighting to destroy each other.
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Apr 14 2012: Lisa,
An excellent insight.
Yale Wang
Apr 4 2012: It's human nature. More legislation will solve nothing. We need to start discussing and addressing human nature.
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It's easier than most of us think. Simply responding differently to the bully can be easy but frightening for the victim, but it can be done. As for the bully, sometimes they are trying to fit in themselves in some new way, but they are going about the wrong way to do it. People are turning to suicide because they do not see the answer. Everything sinks back below the surface when it's undiscussed.
The basic premise of bullying is that those who are different somehow deserve to be ostracized and excluded. WRONG. Perhaps they naturally need to work harder to gain acceptance, but perhaps there is another part of ourselves we are refusing to accept in this modern hubristic day and age.
Apr 1 2012: Heather started a conversation in February on work place bullying, I have copied and pasted what I shared with her then, hope it helps you.
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According to psychologist Iñaki Piñuel, the victims (of mobbing/bullying) are usually good workers who awaken professional jealousy in others.
"It is calculated that 1 out of every 5 suicides in Europe is related to this phenomenon," states the report.
What can be done? The magazine suggests: "Don't keep it secret. Look for witnesses. Report the situation to company officials. Don't blame yourself. In extreme cases, change departments [or] jobs."
Some victims of harassment are targeted by one person. But more often, the victim is subjected to the assault of an alliance of colleagues. Hence, the term "mobbing" is appropriate, since it implies that a group is putting an individual under pressure by deliberately annoying or attacking him.
Perhaps most astonishing is the fact that in many cases harassment occurs with the boss's consent.
In some European studies, the supervisor played an active role in about 50 percent of the cases, and quite often he or she proved to be the sole perpetrator. All of this turns the work experience into what the German daily newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung termed as "a long, trying war of nerves."
Conclusion: The employee has to be educated on how to avoid the mobbing.
The article suggests: Harassment often begins with an unresolved conflict between workmates. Hence, without being a busybody in the affairs of others, give prompt attention to misunderstandings in which you are personally involved. Calm hurt feelings with tact and respect. Deal with your colleagues as individuals, not as a group. If someone appears to have something against you, try to sort out matters.
All benefit by keeping the lines of communication open.
How sad that adults act like children.....many of these adults have kids and teach them these same patterns of behavior.
Apr 1 2012: Mary,
Most astonishing, as you note, is "many cases of workplace bullying occur with bosses consent."
An interesting parallel to this related to the set up for my Q is Rush Limbaugh's "boss" Clear Channel Radio consents to his public bully rhetoric. By contrast, Keith Olbermann's boss, is if the chatter is to be believed, apparently less tolerant of his similar, but arguably "less" vitriolic rhetoric.
As I say this I want to be very clear: it is dangerous, I realize, to make any judgment call on what intentionally offensive rhetoric crosses the line more egregiously than the next.
My observation is consent by bosses and other leaders of influence can actually create a culture of coercion.
Adults are no less vulnerable to fears of isolation and of being ostracized than children are. Add the potential of loss of job or, worse, vocation to the scenario and otherwise competent co-workers are less likely to engage alliances with the primary victim or victims of bullying.
This effect came to mind to me today as I spoke with a female leader in the US. I asked her about her feelings about the latest "Rush-rage" incident in which Limbaugh quite graphically verbally assaulted a female college student who testified in behalf of coverage for contraceptives. His harassment persisted for three days straight in three-hour a day programs.
The leader, a powerful woman, replied as many do: "Just don't listen to Rush." Which seems reasonable, until one realizes that other do listen to Rush.
Including, of course, some bosses and leaders who mimic the social-isolation tactics he uses.
Apr 1 2012: In my situation, I first experienced the bullying behaviour as a bystander witnessing a new director bullying my line manager. It was only after speaking out about the situation that the bully turned her attention onto me. I'm not being a martyr - she would have got round to me sooner or later! She was picking us all off one-by-one. I expected to be protected once I reported the situation to Occupational Health and HR - but, I was treated as a problem and a trouble maker. After 3.5 years of being bullied and fighting my case I was paid off. I lost, not only my job, but also my career of over 15 years - which was devastating at the time. I'm still vulnerable to stress, but I enjoy my new quiet life - I'm time rich!
My temperament is that of an introvert and this, I believe, saved me. If I was an extravert I would have suffered far more from the rejection and isolation I was subjected to. One of the interesting aspects of the bully's tactics was that she tried to hurt me as if I was her - as if she knew me better than I did. Of course she got me totally wrong - I'm a secure introvert - she was an insecure extravert. She used public ridicule to try to isolate me - and the less it bothered me the more confused, angry and deranged she became. She really didn't get it :-)
Because of this experience, I view bullying as a form of unconscious, projected self-loathing. If you want to live dangerously simply mirror the same behaviour back to them. I did, on one occasion (not recommended) - out of intellectual interest - and she reverted into a furious but scared little kid. I also used to record events on a digital recorder taped to my arm so I could dissect her tactics and methods later at home once I felt safe and less shocked.
Current brain research has shown that most of the brain in dedicated to unconscious activity. This is where the key to bullying is to be found. I'd like to hypnotically regress a bully to understand how it all began for them.
Apr 2 2012: Heather,
I think introverts do have capacities for self-soothing that extraverts might not be as in touch with. That said, extraverts have capacities for seeking others support that introverts aren't as well practiced in.
I think the best indicator a person will not be inclined to bully is if they can look in the mirror and say at once: I am capable of very good and capable of not-so-much. Like all humans I can both be hurt and hurt. Hard as it is to admit either and both.
This higher self awareness coaxes the unconscious into view. And, hopefully, in keeping these two truths in equilibrium one learns a sense of confidence and self-mastery (as it sounds you have) and continual focus and intention to the effort of avoiding "bruising" others.
Regards brain research, there is good evidence that continual stress has a compounding effect on the reactivity in the frontal cortex. The more one is engaged in or by tense situations, the more the brain is "trained" to react first and reflect later. Constant stress can overwhelm the brains "emotion regulatory" system.
Culture, with its diverse and dynamic systemic interconnections, seems somewhat similar.
Chronic social upheavals overwhelm community's regulatory systems -- including healthy homes, public safety and cultural organizations like schools and faith organizations which have various tools and hopefully relationally reflective lessons to offer.
But, can't, for all their efforts solve or heal all problems, when more encompassing cultural affects catalyze diffuse and debilitating stress on a majority of it's individuals.
Why, in my view, I have the distinct sense that culture is likely a petri-dish for bullying. And, conversely that engaged, intentionally self-reflective cultures can achieve meaningful "cures" for bullying.
Given this and your experiment of dissecting video tape of your boss, it would seem consciousness raising as you do with Red Balloon, is, indeed very valuable.
Fritzie -
Apr 1 2012: "Adults are no less vulnerable to fears of isolation and of being ostracized than children are. Add the potential of loss of job or, worse, vocation to the scenario and otherwise competent co-workers are less likely to engage alliances with the primary victim or victims of bullying."
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This issue of the bystander's fear preventing his support for the victim is a critical problem and the focus of the school anti-bullying programs in which I have participated. The version with which I am most familiar is bystanders who are quite willing to offer the victim support privately but are unwilling to expose themselves. This the bully never gets the message, interpreting the silence of obvious bystanders as consent and support.
I don't think children necessarily see this dynamic in adults, only because it typically happens in work and some community settings in which children are not engaged. I don't know how many children are aware of Rush Limbaugh or Keith Olberman.
I do know that children who are bullied are frequently those who bully in return.
Apr 2 2012: Fritzie --
This concept of "private support" v "public support" for bully victims is very interesting. I've witnessed it, too.
Heather's experience no doubt is exactly why. While many might have empathy, few, like Heather have the courage to publicly declare it and defend the victim.
While children may not be aware of Limbaugh or Olberman, my experience of children is they see and hear far more than they let on. And, if adults they come in contact somehow transmit the same sort of vitriol, I suspect the children internalize it at some levels.
Apr 2 2012: "I don't think children necessarily see this dynamic in adults, only because it typically happens in work and some community settings in which children are not engaged."
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Fritzie, you know, I've seen lots of parents act like bullies in public places with their children along, I've seen them in traffice showing road rage, and also at banks, supermarkets, and yes, even at their kid's school.
I have also seen bullying coming from alot of girls whose parents...especially the mom is passive aggressive. Girls are relentless bullies....they go about it a whole different way than boys.
Sadly, victims of bullying some time pick it up themselves as a self-defense mechanism, or even to try it out on some other defenseless individual......tsk tsk tsk....the whole thing makes me spit.
It is so easy to communicate.....Apr 2 2012: Mary,
"Odd Girl Out" by Rachel Simmons shines a microscopic lens on the very complicated social systems and behaviors, including elusive but near epidemics of passive aggressiveness, in some girls social circles.
There does seem to be significant increases and earlier signs of this, in girls as young as early to mid-grade school.
AndreaApr 4 2012: Interesting that you pound on Rush Limbaugh but not liberals and not the President who is trying to bully the Supreme Court.
Apr 4 2012: James,
Can you explain how, as you say, the President is trying to bully the Supreme Court?
And, regards "pounding on Limbaugh," not clear how this dialogue "pounds on him." And, please note, nearly every time Limbaugh is mentioned, so is liberal Keith Olbermann. Though, arguably Limbaugh is the most prominent "voice" of rage-rhetoric in media these days.
Jaime Lubin
Apr 8 2012: Andrea the powerfull nations bullyng others countries too. The name change but the agressive behavior is live. In old times bulling was named "war"...today named "terrorism" or " countercuture" or attacs "to preserve the homeland security" (whatever that means)...our common north frontierline is a battlefield with the most wide range bullyng samples against our people...in the history, Texas, California, Arizona, Nevada, among other places was in Mexico but today with the diplomacy democracy security bullyng are in the US...remember Joel R.Poinsset your first ambassador in our country?....well he was the first to use diplomatic bullyng..remember Albert Pike...well that evilman was one to practice bullyng with the KKK rage....so....don't see the bullyng just between kids in scholl...open our eyes...in all the world the US governement has practice the official bullyng politics.... Japan, China, Middle East, Filipinas, Cuba, Panama, Germany, pracically all the world....
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Its a nice and wellcome this conversation and I see like the first "mea culpa" from the honest north americans...
Stuart Woods
Apr 13 2012: I think the notion and reality of bullying is not age specific. I think many reports focus on schools because they make powerful points for government and the press. Bullying exists everywhere but I do agree that it's the adults responsibility to MODEL how to behave. Unfortunately television has played a negative role in highlighting poor behaviour amongst adults and children and can be seen to thrive on the conflict. Also every year in British schools I watch in fear as worthy teachers aim to 'teach' 'anti-bullying' during a one week drive, well meant but ultimately it fails. What inevitably transpires is that teachers teach the students exactly what bullying looks like, giving them examples before telling them not to do it, this is embedding negative commands and I believe doesn't work. In this case it's NOT anti-bullying at all. The opposite of bullying, and where additional emotional intelligence and resources must go is into COHESION and FRIENDSHIP. I don't say this lightly.Just like the absence of war is not peace, the absence of bullying is not friendship. It takes relentlessness effort and hard work to make relationships work on any level. Bullying is a much 'easier' way through personal interaction for many and so will be their default because either they do not have the tools to build healthy relationships or they choose not to. It is (in part) a school's role but much more the family's role to show and tell what good relationships look and feel like and why we must foster them as a priority if we are to grow successful and happy adults for tomorrow.
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Apr 14 2012: Stuart,
Your comment that the absence of bullying is not friendship brings to mind the concept of "adversarial collaboration." Which doesn't deny difference and debate, or even distaste for the other, perhaps. But does acknowledge the need for co-productive relationship.
I'm not sure adversarially collaborative relationships meet the standard of healthy relationships that navigate ups and downs, but, perhaps serve as a stepping stone that helps foster respectful modeling and behaviors.
Danielle C.
Apr 12 2012: It is definitely behavior learned from adults. Whether we're conscious of this fact is the issue. We need to address bullying issues directly. We need to explain to children how bullies make their victims feel. We need to make sure children understand exactly how hurtful words/actions can determine how victims live their lives. In a world where each and every person effects the lives of one another, we should attempt to find a non-cheesy way to engage children in role-playing. In which every student gets 'bullied' to find the true effect of the action. I think that until a child has been bullied themselves, they will not be able to get a sense of how being bullied can be so detrimental for a person's life.
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Mark Hurych
Apr 12 2012: Sugata Mitra might call it a "granny cloud" (an educational model from "Hole In The Wall") and Jeremy Rifkin (author "Empathic Civilization: The Race to Global Consciousness in a World in Crisis" [2010]) might see it as part of "distributed capitalism."
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We humans need to get together on all levels, rearing children, within families, within communities, and even across the large-scale community of the human family. (I use family literally since all 7 billion of us are related as of 70,000 years ago.) On the global scale, bullying is still rampant. Military options are often seen as viable tools for fixing what is essentially a problem of "not sharing."
So I'd say the problem is not isolated among children or parents alone. It is global. Here is a disease we can cure.
In a single idea, I think we need "community building."
It's not easy, but nothing worthwhile ever is.
Apr 14 2012: Mark,
Your comment brings to mind a conversation a fellow researcher and I had with teens. One young man, who'd sometimes struggled to get along, noted that if bullies are removed from bullied, nothing is gained and something critical might be lost.
That is, the opportunity for bully and bullied to get to know each other in community.
As example: he spoke of another youth he often sparred with, but nonetheless found himself continually having to deal with. He said both he and the other youth found ways to get along--largely through playing basketball, as it happens.
He noted with profound maturity the loss it would have been for them not to have remained in the community setting where not getting along became less and less an option due simply to ongoing time together.
Apr 14 2012: Andrea the time to close this conversation is coming. Can we open the next part about violence and peace? Thanks a lot for the opportunity to said some.
Jaime Lubin
Apr 14 2012: To build the community we have to sart from ourselves as individuals.
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Mark when the human structures are so rigid as social is because the social building is made from persons, and a person is a mask, a simulation, so the social building is made from masks.
The community is a net not a building...a net is flexible and strong at the same time..
is made from individuals (IN DIVIDERE) from latin means impossible to divide.
Apr 14 2012: "individuals (IN DIVIDERE) from latin means impossible to divide"............it is impossible to divide the individual.......but individuals...more than one is very much possible to divide...
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"Divide and conquer"................that is what we see today worldwide..
Religion divides us
Ethnicity divides us
Culture divides us
Politics divides us
Socio-economic backgrounds divides us
Intellect divides us
Gender divides us
What unites us?
Instead of letting the spirit of competition reign, we should strive for a spirit of cooperation.....have the same goals, values, etc...... for the betterment of humanity.
Enjoyed reading your comment. especially the latin word explanation.
Tina Abnoosi
Apr 12 2012: Yes, I think so, we are not aware that we are the role model for them, what they see they feel is ok for them to do.Apr 12 2012: What a great topic!
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I'm from Argentina and I teach at a primary and secondary school. Bullying is an issue!
I totally agree with the fact that media influences society and movies like the ones you mention plus video games in which the more you bully the faster you win the game are damaging kids'minds!!
As adults, we should help both the bully and the bullied, since they both have problem which are being shown in different ways.
Let's be on the alert to be able to help.
PatriciaApr 12 2012: I am happy that you referenced "The Hunger Games" because I have had a strange question as to why such a film is rated PG-13?! It seemed way to graphic to be PG-13 and when "Bully" the documentary was supposed to be released it had a few obscene language scenes that children use everyday at schools and they slap a rated R for "Reality"?
The world of make beilieve is nice, but I think that reality is a much bigger issue that needs to be focused upon now.
Thanks for reading my thoughts.
Kylie Dunn
Apr 2 2012: I think it's nature and nurture. I knew kids with less than optimal home lives and bullying parents who didn't turn around and bully others. I think confidence and support might have a lot to do with this, a lack of these things can bring out a bully, while kids who have these things have other options.
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Personally, I was bullied quite attrociously as a child, but they became somewhat relentless in my latter high school years. I "made it worse" for myself because one of the main bullies had a crush on my boyfriend (which I didn't know until later), so there was a big dose of jealousy poured on top. I can't even begin to think of how much worse this would have been with mobile phones and social media.
Unfortunately it is such an ingrained part of our society that I don't know there is a way out of it. I've experienced it in all of my workplaces, only once as the victim but I have seen others being bullied - and I think that the civilian jobs were even worse than my time in the military in some ways.
We also experience it far too often in our media, and not just the narrow minded talk back radio media either (the Australian versions of Rush Limbaugh) who push hatred and bully anyone who might contradict their opinion. But even in our mainstream media there is this thread of "nasty is funny" and we should be able to mercilessly pick on people who aren't like the mainstream image. And do not get me started about the nitpicking, bullying nature of politics in this country, I hate watching the news because they are worse than watching schoolyard bullies.
I think that the only way to make this better is through decent leadership. Leaders in is politics, organisations, schools and communities who don't use bullying as a technique and are willing to speak out or pull others up when they do. Only when it is socially unacceptable to bully will it stop.
But this also means giving people other mechanisms to deal with their feelings and issues - good luck!
Apr 2 2012: Kylie,
Your comments about Aussie "talk back" media reminds me of a writer for "Online Opinion" Which bills itself as "Australia's E-Journal of Social and Political Debate."
Bashir Goth's (http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/author.asp?id=4006) writing was introduced to me by a Somalian refugee in the US when he and I dialogued about what triggers social reactivity. Your observation that some who've been bullied do not repeat the cycle really sets off reminder bells of Bashir's themes for me.
The refugee man and I were debating on your "nature/nuture" lines. His feeling was bullying is somewhat unavoidable in chaotic societies like Somalia. My "from afar" view is that human nature is equally as infused with capacities for benevolence, even in chaotic situations, similar to your observation.
Though I have never been in Somalia, so this was audaciously idealistic, if not naively so, of me. To his tremendous credit, my co-debater, an elderly man who I believe had been a military leader, reflected on my hopeful belief. And followed it up by sending me this stunning piece from Bashir, which affirms your point:
Here is the last stanza of the poem Bashir posted at the bottom of the essay, a plea to Somalians to stop fighting:
"Bare bones everywhere
Carcass smell in summer
- lonely bird above
Last whistle not blown
Buds sprouting everywhere
- bees out in spring."
Kylie Dunn
Apr 2 2012: I love the last line of his Somali women between hope and reality post (http://hanua.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/somali-women-between-hope-and-reality.html)
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"Ironically, it is women who despite bearing the brunt of all society's ills that have kept the Somali people afloat over the last 20 years of internecine wars and misery caused by men."
It's not always the women but this is what I mean, not all victims take on the traits of their oppressors. Many use it as a means of defining what they will never be and what they will no longer tolerate.
Looks like I have a new site to read through, thanks for the link Andrea.
Fritzie -
Apr 2 2012: Andrea, I wanted to reply to your comment about what children see with something I remember from fifty years ago on this point.
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My twin sister and I were with my parents at a store. My father was a reserved, very European little man from the Old Country. Near the register, an angry woman was yelling at and hitting her child- really beating her child- repeatedly. My father went up to her and said, "Madame, are you planning next time to do this with a hammer?"
She stopped right away and a few minutes later apologized to my mother. And I remember to this day my father stepping forward to disrupt the beating of the small child.
Apr 2 2012: Fritzie --
What an image to have imbedded in your (and this other young child's) experience of authentically judicious paternal strength, and the power of a "velvet hammer" driving home a transformative point.
Jaime Lubin
Apr 1 2012: Andrea we can't expect a nice world full with nice people...the violence, from soft stages to hard attacks are everyday, everywhere..., bulling is also a national way to menace others countries (USA VS IRAN) in all cases buling is a metaphor for war and violence...in home with the abuse from fathers to sons, in the couple with the macho behavior against women, in scholl, in the office...but the root is the same for all....ENVY. The self defense against bulling includes also the soft response till the real defense. I remember that in my childhood some cousins "bullying " me....well after the first rsponse (violen response from me) they stop and never did it again. The peace has boundaries, the violence has limits.Apr 1 2012: I recenty posted on facebook in support of the Bully movie:
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Bullying comes from many sources, not just in schools. We Adults live in a Bullying World. We can change that world for our future generations. Be a good example.
Twitter Tuesday: Stand with #BullyMovie Today!
yes I too believe it is a behavior learned from adults.
GeraldApr 1 2012: I believe that a bully is also the bullied, it is a learned behaviour. So if you want to blame anyone it could be the parents? But then it becomes a cycle because the parents were probably bullied and so on. It's a catch 22.
Every situation is different and I think that pointing the blame at someone is not going to help to solve the problem.
I think everyone has to be more aware and come together as a society, that is the only way there will be a change. There will always be bullies but if we look at the bigger picture we will see that the bully is also the victim and so on.
I don't have the answers but I know that it will take a fundamental shift in the current state of the world for there to be less aggrevation and more untiy, less hate and more appreciation of life.Mar 31 2012: Bullying is learned behaviour. A child bully will have learnt the skills necessary to bully from those closest to them -usually family. If children who bully are not helped to see their own damaging behaviour they will grow up to be adult bullies and the cycle of misery will continue.
Red Balloon is an education charity that provides a safe environment for bullied kids until they are well enough to return to main stream school - I volunteer for this charity.
The Internation Association on Workplace Bullying and Harassment - a forum for research and discussion. I attended their conference in Cardiff in 2010
Dr Laura Crawshaw was an inspiring speaker at the IAWBH conference in Cardiff. She works to heal bully bosses without labling them as bullies.
http://www.bosswhispering.com/find-a-boss-whisperer.htmlApr 14 2012: There is far less bullying today then ever in the history of mankind. We are softer, gentler, far more considerate and we are growing more so each day.
Apr 14 2012: Tobias,
Can you explain in more detail how you feel we are "far more considerate and growing more so" each day?
It is a wonderfully encouraging comment, but stands out from so much that seems to convey a different reality.
Apr 14 2012: I could go on all day but my time is limited this morning so I will just give you a few examples.
Can you think of a time in western history(maybe acnient Greece...maybe) when it was ok to be openly gay?
What about atheism?
How would you like to have been a black person in the 1930s?
Apr 14 2012: Time is limited.......clock is running...
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Tobias, gays have been around openly....ever since Bible times....
Atheism has also been around for a long time.
And well, blacks have enjoyed life openly and without bullying for way longer than the 1930's..........all over the world.
Are you saying that bullying is just an issue that affects gays, atheist, and blacks???
Are you limiting bullying to just the U.S....bullying/mobbing is a worldwide issue.
It's roots are.............well others are so much more eloquent than me.
I will echo Andrea's words: "your comment is wonderfully encouraging, but stands out from so much that seems to convery a different reality".Apr 14 2012: @Mary M said "Are you saying that bullying is just an issue that affects gays, atheist, and blacks???"
What part of "I only have time you give you a few examples" are you not comprehending?Apr 13 2012: Bullying can only be eradicated....if the local media stops promoting the violent characters as cool....its wat they see in T.V...which they reproduce in schools...i mean cumon...every kid watches wrestling...and at the end of the show...to portray themselves to be ethically right by saying" dont do this at home,school, or any where"....kids do eactly... what they are told not to do
Jaime Lubin
Apr 13 2012: Well Khushai...is so easy to blame the media with the heavy weight of violence, certainly they are looking for money and the audience is looking for stolen emotions, but I believe that we have to start in family.The cultures are very different in the East than in the West, but violence is the same everywhere. Then we have to work immediately with the roots and causes not with the external manifestations. Here in Mexico we know so much about the violence in our style:machismo, narcos, corruption....and a lot of stones over our shoulders. If you said "kids do exactly....what they are told not to o" then begin with the kids...transform terror and violence in tenderness.
- +2
Apr 13 2012: i agree with u....as u said east and the west have totalee different cultures....but as far as i can see it...violence is also a part of what we call life.......which balances the cycle of life...cuz if there was no violence and killing of each other....we would die of hunger, due to mass populationApr 12 2012: Roughly speaking,I agree with you.Yeah,Our parents are our children's first teacher,and in all likelihood,no matter what they teach their children will have a everlasting influence to their children.But today my concern is not with apportioning blame!But how can we change those things?So can you give me some sugestions clearer?
Thank you!
Apr 12 2012: Shelly,
Years ago when I started teaching I taught at a residential facility for abused, neglected, and semi-violent children. These kids were hurt, angry, and were abusive to each other, themselves, and to me as their teacher. My technique is probably too long to completely explain, but it boils down to listening to their story and showing respect. When a student was being verbally abusive to the others in class or to me, it was amazing how effective it was for me to look at that child and tell them, "I'm sorry that somewhere in your past someone has treated you so horrible that you feel that you can treat others this way. That person was wrong, and you shouldn't have had to endure that, no one should, and I am sorry that happened to you! It shouldn't have."
Simply acknowledging that you have no idea what their past is, but that it was probably a violation of who they are, and that you basically care enough to say you're sorry was able to move mountains for me. I think that for most of my students it was the first time they had ever heard an adult apologize, for anything.
I think they want to share their story and that they don't understand how their actions wound others because they are young, fragile, and very ego-centric. You have to help them step out of that "it's all about me" mindset and it is very challenging!Apr 12 2012: Fear and intimadation have been a factor for all of recorded time. Police, politicians, teachers, school administrators, supervisors, preachers, etc ... almost everyone uses it to some degree. Some is physical and some is mental. The media (games, radio, movies, etc .. ) are all contributors. I do not believe that it will ever be eliminated and that should not be the goal. At best we can have some control over the degree it occurs and limit the consequences. Some blame must lie at the feet of the health professionals that think that the use of medications can resolve the problem or that for twenty appointments at $200 per hour will solve all of Johnnies problems. Sports are not without blame. The pecking order within the team and the pack mentality exists as a team. Nature eliminates the weak. All kids can tell you the quaterbacks name but few can tell you who is on the academic team. We are taught at a young age that brains lose to muscle. We all have demons and they will continue until we face them. There is no simple answer or solution. All the best. BobApr 12 2012: Bullying begins in settings where there is "the" way to do "things."
In society, there is the dominant popular culture. In education, there is the assumption that standardized tests measure meaningful learning. In politics, there is the assumption that capitalism and our brand of "democracy" are universally positive systems. In religion, there are the unquestioned books.
Because all of these break down under serious inquiry, leaders must take steps to compel compliance. Bullying occurs when those steps are perceived as excessive by those to whom they are applied. Notice that there are different perceptions that can be applied to the same actions: What the leader perceives as "doing what is necessary for the organization," the members perceives as "bullying."
Minimizing bullying in the adult world will require:
1) Preventing those with narcissistic tendencies from ascending to leadership positions. (This step is much easier to state than to accomplish.) A corollary to this step: skilled and competent individuals can leave organizations in which a bully is in charge, thus weakening the organization.
2) Developing a culture that values innovation and recognizes the economic (and social and aesthetic and political...) advantages realized only through innovative thinking. For this to happen, it is necessary that leaders recognize compelling "the" way be followed prevents innovation.Apr 12 2012: Short answer. YES. My friend at work told me of a chinese traditional saying about a young king or prince being paraded through the street with no clothes on. All were praising the king and how great he was. One said "hey the king is naked!" All were in denial of the truth. We very much have a society of denial. We are forced not to say these things for various social and economic reasons. We will surpass this condition someday, 5, 10, 50, 100 or 500 years from now. I don't know when but I have faith that it is coming. We are one family, we must treat each other as one family. These leaders right now are stuck in the tribal ages.
Apr 14 2012: Andre,
I believe your friend is referring to the Hans Christian Anderson story "The Emperor Has No Clothes."
The story is an indictment on the social effects of denial. In fact, much social denial has more to do with the coercive effect of social norms. In other words, few who know the truth (and in fact, it is typically a "hidden majority" which does) will actually speak to it.
So to your point about when humanity will surpass this condition, I'd say, when many more speak up to the truth. And, as with negative social norms that are sustained due to social silencing, this effect can be accelerated if more speak up.
AndreaApr 12 2012: hello - interseting conversation
in my country we also have a problem with bully's but i look out on the world stage and i see the US as the biggest bully of the global playground and i think how can we teach our children NOT to bully when every where they look they see bullying - to a child parents bully - adults are bullies to a child in many instances - then teaches bully, CEO's bully, people of power and influence bully, maybe not all physically but verbally and through fear and punishment or fear of withdrawing love or something valuable to that child
but the biggest bully is the US - then its the military - then its the police - bullying is every where - by its own definition - sadly
bullying comes from deeply fearful individuals and lets all get real - governments are full of people - so is the military every where is people - fearful, wounded unhappy whatever ...happy people don't bully they have no need to ...
bullying is a SYMPTOM - fear is the cause - fear is a symptom also .....what is the cause ....?
feelings are always the cause - emotions are always the cause - the behavior is the effect ...most seek to modify the behavior by getting into the thoughts but the real nitty grityt comes when exploring feelings because so many are so cut off from real feelings they don't really know anymore what it is that they feel except anger, sadness, or resentment etc ..but even these are layers of symptoms ....
Apr 11 2012: Some kids that bloom earlier than others are very likely to try and dominate the rest. Hence the bullying. Adult bullies simply make it worse.Apr 10 2012: I invariably find that children copy what they see and hear. Watching Super Nanny, the "problem children" always have problem parents and it is the education of the parent which turns the situation around, not the education of the child.Apr 8 2012: Interesting to see "bullying" brought to light.
- 0
You do know that confronting bullies stops the bullying. Did you ever see a smaller kid stop a bully in their tracks?
Remember when we used to tough enough to boast "don't tread on me"?
If you don't stand of for yourself, who is going to protect you.
It appears that a "government" solution is what is requested. How has that ever helped?
Wait, you can get revenge by complaining about bullying. It's over there, no over there, behind that tree. It's everywhere.Apr 4 2012: Children learn victim behavior from their parents. I teach in an independent study school and deal with students and parents that play the victim card to keep from doing homework, coming to exams, doing papers. Also, look at welfare statistics and you will find a huge group of people that play the victim for events that happened generations ago. They just chose not to stand up and grow up as a group. I agree with Yale Wang legislation is a waste of time and money for bullies. They learn to be bullies from the success of their parents and welfare people are bullies just as much as politicians who play the race card.Apr 3 2012: My observations regarding litigation are entirely anecdotal, but anecdotes collected over 13 years. Further down this discussion someone also points out that bullies and victims often change sides depending on the company they are in. You see this in high schools all the time. I guess the main message is a well educated child with appropriate levels of self esteem doesn't see the need to bully anyone and has the confidence to resist becoming a victim. It's our responsibility as parents (and for me as a teacher) to see that we give our children these abilities. I think it is important when dealing with bullying that we don't cast the bully as the bad guy and the victim as the good guy. They both have a problem that needs to be dealt with. As you say a sense of responsibility for the well being of your peers would go a long way.
Apr 4 2012: You go Peter as a teacher I allow no bullying and I allow no victim mentality with my students. I hold them responsible for all the work they do and there are academic consequences for the work they do not do and there is little make up work they are allowed to do. Just do the work and turn it in on time. I have had parents ask me to let them make up work for a whole semester of no work and I just said NO and explained that it set a bad pattern for students and that their bosses would not allow it so why should I as a teacher.Apr 3 2012: I've been a high school teacher for 13 years and in my experience the bully requires both the predisposotion and an example or stimulus to blossom in the roll. I also see the same in the victim, some of the behaviors you associate with with the victim are learned from parents. While in our schools we often have discussions about identifying bullying behavior we rarely seem to talk about helping kids identify how a victim behaves and how to aviod it. Within a group of 12 year olds the victim might not be the best role you can have but in the eyes of some kids its better than no roll at all. Maybe if we teach kids how to not be a victim they will carry this ability with them through life.
Apr 3 2012: Peter,
Interesting. Can you explain more regards victim personas?
Apr 3 2012: From the point of view of a 12 year old the best thing about being a victim is that it relieves you of personal responsibility for anything bad that happens to you. You have an excuse to fail and its not your fault. Kids who are victims are often the children of overly litigious parents. I worry that parents who constantly look for someone to blame encourage thier children to do the same. In some cases you see the same parent produce a bully and a victim. Underparented children find a way to cope, you either become the boss of your own world or you seek parenting by being needy, your teachers become defacto parents but you need to attract their attention. In all cases I feel the bully and the victim actually have a lot in common, as they are both the product of low self esteem and a lack of knowlwdge of any other course of action. Bullies and victims both need education and it needs to be a package. Neither can exist without the other.
Apr 3 2012: Peter,
Do you know of research that supports that victim children are often children of overly litigious parents?
Related to this, it occurs to me that we in the US live in an increasingly litigious society. And, I wonder if kids of bullies might also have parents who tend towards litigiousness? It seems there might be a correlation on both sides, in the sense that both seem to struggling with working things out in and with each other in school, neighborhood, team or other community setting.
Your suggestion that bullies and victims both need education makes sense. Perhaps the best education for both would be one that catalyzes self-esteem and ability to navigate myriad social situations. Including a sense of shared responsibility for each other, in contrast to co-mutual lack of self-responsibility and/or control.
AndreaApr 2 2012: Roy--
Powerful comment.
It reminds me of something I need to be reminded of over, and over again -- and, when I'm perched on my soap-box have been known to "preach" to others. (Ugh.)
We can't possibly know what pain anyone is enduring or has endured. And we can't possibly know the power in helping redirect another's energies as you and this Sheriff have. In fact, I'd say we benefit ourselves by re-directing our energies to redirecting others energies, too. If that makes sense.
The challenge is how can we as societies teach positive energy re-direction to all from early on as a "survival skill?"
Or, put another way, how do we model and teach the self-protective benefits of pro-social skills and efforts?
Roy Bourque
Apr 12 2012: Andrea,
- +1
I've been going over this topic in my mind for some time. Here are a few more observations;
I was bullied when I was in grade school. I finally beat up the bully out of anger and frustration. He then wanted to be my friend. I asked him why he bullied me before. He said "because you let me". I found out that his parents were divorced and he had no father figure at home. He needed to know where the line was to be drawn. He was testing me just like children test their parents at how far they can go.
My granddaughter was bullied in school but was afraid to tell. The general attitude is peer pressure; "don't be a snitch or a rat". Kids are very sensitive to this mindset. They need to be taught that bullying is wrong and that they have not only a right, but an obligation to report it.
I don't remember where it was, but there was a news report where a school got bullies and bullied together in a gym and with a counselor, got the two to talk about why they did what they did and how it made each other feel. Many of the bullies were not aware of how much an impact their actions had, even not admitting to being a bully until the truth was brought out. Often, people can't see the bad in themselves, only others.
My psychology professor ran a psychiatric clinic. He was surprised to find out that many of his clients were third and forth generation victims of domestic violence. They finally decided to get help so they wouldn't victimize their own children.
The more we bring this topic to the table, the more people will be aware of how much of it is going on. I think that the fact that bullying is wrong, and its ill effects, should be taught to school kids just like the dangers of illegal drug use are today. The more we know, the more we can bring it out into the open.Apr 1 2012: The potential to bully is in the genetic code. Therefore it is not a giant leap to imagine that those grownup bullies(who are programmed to do so) will exhibit behaviour that seems natural to them. Unfortunayely it is reasonable to assume that they will have an influence on some impressionable young who are not necessarily programmed this way. Most will eventually realise this behaviour is wrong. Saddly not all and the cycle will continue. The only solution is firm intervention.
Apr 1 2012: Not sure I can agree with the notion that some of us are bullies programmed through genetic code.
However, there is some evidence that sociopathy, with its links to bullying, is a heritable condition:
On the other hand, there is also evidence that in spite of having sociopathic genes, with good parental upbringing, normal lives could be led without risks either of sociopathic behaviour or any tendencies towards bullying:
I tend to think that today's adult society is weighted towards favouring those people with psychopathic tendencies. The people who rise to the top are those who do not care about for the effect they have on others. The rewards for lacking empathy and indulging in a spot of bullying to get what they want, are far greater than the rewards they get by being empathic and understanding of others' needs.
If our society continues to lionise what is essentially psychpathic behaviour, then bulling will continue to be the norm.
This simply has to change, and that change can only happen when we decide that it is human beings, and the environment that gives us life, is what actually matters - not the blind pursuit of material gain and the bullying that goes with it.Mar 31 2012: Teaching and creating by being power and control freaks with children who then take it out on any weaker individuals they can find because they are too frightened or unable to deal directly with the power and control freaks who wrong them.


text:
Dear Members,
David's Book: Vegetarians/Bhuddists Q/A
[By Dr.David N. Snyder]
Q. What about other nutrients that the vegetarian diet does not provide?
A. The vegetarian diet provides all the nutrients a human needs. The only exception is the vegan
who does not eat any animal products could be missing vitamin B-12. This vitamin can be found
in miso (fermented soy paste) and shitake mushrooms. The lacto-ovo vegetarian has no problem
as animal products contain high amounts of B-12.
The cause of nearly all diseases, especially in developed countries, is not the lack of any
nutrients, but rather the excess of too much food and fat. We do not hear on the news of anyone
dying from lack of protein or lack of iron or lack of amino acids. The real problem is too much
food and fat. People in developed countries eat too much fat and protein. The excess iron and
protein leads to the health problems listed above.
An example is vitamin B-12, discussed above. We only need very miniscule amounts of this
vitamin and it is stored in the body. The amount of vitamin B-12 that we need is a very puny one
milligram for every 667 days (almost two years)! Yet, some meat eaters continue to argue that
vegetarians are not getting enough nutrients such as protein and vitamin B-12. If you watch the
news and live in a developed country such as the U.S., ask yourself how many times do you hear
of people dying of scurvy or protein deficiency and other nutrient deficiencies? It just does not
happen. The problem in developed countries' nutrition is excess protein and excess fat which has
made heart disease the number one killer in men and women.
Q. What about the violence vegetarians do to plants and the environment in the
construction of their homes and all the insects they kill in the production of their foods?
A. A couple of other arguments meat eaters like to throw back on vegetarians is that the
construction of homes and buildings, which vegetarians live in required the displacement of
animals and the killing of insects. Also, that the agriculture of plant foods causes the killing of
insects too. They also argue that the eating of the plants itself is a form of killing.
The displacement of animals is a far less form of violence to killing animals for food. The
development of homes and buildings does cause death to insects, but this is unavoidable as is
accidentally stepping on an ant walking down the street. The difference is the intent. The Buddha
said that there is no ―crime when there is no intent. A vegetarian builder does not intend to kill
insects just as the person walking down the street does not purposely step on the ant. The
consumption of meat, however, is a voluntary choice matter.
It is true that vegetarians do need to kill plants to eat their vegetarian diet, but the point is to
inflict the least amount of violence. Another important point is that there is a huge difference
between killing a plant and killing an animal. Vegetables and fruits are life forms, but they are
not animals, like humans, cows, and chickens. A vegetable does not have a face or a central
nervous system and does not scream in pain.
Many fruits and vegetables can be eaten without harming the plant, including legumes, berries,
nuts, seeds, pumpkins, melons, squash, okra, and others. Another very important point is that
most fruits and vegetables are eaten at the end of their natural life. In fact, fruit trees actually
produce their fruit so that they may survive and produce another tree. If the tree could talk, it
would beg us to eat its fruit. Seriously, when a human or animal eats a fruit, the food travels
down the intestinal tract, along with some seeds. Later, when the human or animal defecates, the
seeds end up back on the ground at a different location. The seeds then produce another tree. The
tree remains alive and by eating the fruit, we are assisting in the production of another tree.
Now when a person eats an animal, do you think the animal had the same wish to be killed and
eaten? Videos of slaughterhouse procedures have graphically shown how the animals feel about
being killed. They are prodded, often with electric shock devices into the slaughterhouse. Once
their throats are cut, they can be seen crying in pain and kicking with all their might to be free.
Gallons and gallons of blood pour out from the cuts. It is quite graphic and would probably need
an ―X rating for violence if it were shown in theatres.
Q. What about the plants and minerals? From a Buddhist perspective are we not reborn
sometimes in the plant and mineral worlds, so are we not killing and eating our kin when
we eat vegetarian foods too?
A. According to the Buddhist cosmology, rebirth occurs into the six realms of hells, purgatory,
hungry ghosts, animals, humans, and angelic higher beings (impermanent gods). There is no
rebirth into the plant kingdom. Plants do not have a developed central nervous system, a brain, or
a developed consciousness.
Q. Are Vegetarian Buddhists Animal Rights Activists?
A. If the ideal Buddhist diet is vegetarian, should Buddhists also be animal rights activists?
Being an animal rights activist is certainly a noble cause to undertake, if one so chooses, but it
has been my experience that only a very small percentage of Buddhists take the vegetarian
message that far. There is nothing wrong with being an animal rights activist for those who want
to, but the media does tend to portray the activists as extremists and sometimes as terrorists.
A Buddhist middle way position could be to take the view on the sanctity of all life and to
prevent the misuse, abuse, and killing of animals as much as possible.
Here are some of the positions animal rights activists have taken and a potential Buddhist middle
way answer:
Animal products – Nearly all animal rights activists are opposed to eating or promoting the
consumption of animal products, such as eggs, milk, and cheese. The activists note that many
farms that produce animal products keep the animals in confined quarters, such as ten or more
hens in one very small cage, producing eggs. The lights are kept on 24 hours a day so that they
will produce more eggs.
A Buddhist middle way position could be to eat animal products, if you so choose, if they came
from cage free, organic, more natural farms. Now there are farms where the animals are kept in
a more natural setting without hormone and anti-biotic injections and other bad conditions.
Animal experimentation – Nearly all animal rights activists are opposed to animal
experimentation of any kind, including dissection for educational purposes in schools.
A Buddhist middle way position could be to allow animal testing only if it is absolutely
necessary and if it can be definitely shown that doing such research would save human lives. It
is always terrible to kill any living being for any purpose, but in many cases animal research has
led to cures to some diseases which have actually saved thousands of lives or more. Humans are
members of the Animal Kingdom and we share virtually identical organs to many animal
species. This is why animal research has been so successful, including the vaccine for polio.
But we must still not forget the ethical arguments. The animals should be kept in humane
conditions and not be tortured under any circumstance. There is far too much animal
experimentation in the name of research and some of the repetition should be cut back, but the
number of animals killed in experiments still pales in comparison to the number killed for food.
The number killed in research laboratories is in the millions while the number killed for food is
in the billions to nearly trillions per year.
Fur and leather – All animal rights activists are opposed to the wearing of fur. The arguments
are very valid; that no one needs fur to keep warm (there are numerous alternatives), the animals
the fur comes from need to be trapped which can be quite painful, and it takes several fur
animals to make one coat. Many activists are also opposed to wearing leather because it is
usually from the skins of cows and bulls.
A Buddhist middle way position would be to agree with the activists one hundred percent on the
fur issue. In this day and age there is no need for furs and there is no consumption of the fur
animal's meat. The animals are being killed strictly for the furs. However, with the case of
leather, no animal is being killed to make leather as the leather is made from the skins of animals
killed for food. If we lived in a vegetarian world, animals would have to be killed to make
leather. But, since a vegetarian world is a long way off, there is no harm in using leather
products, if one so chooses.
In the Buddhist Vinaya (rules for monks and nuns) the Buddha makes it a rule that the monastics
cannot use antelope skins (Mahavagga 8.28) and also deer skins (Mahavagga 5.10), but then
makes an exception (Mahavagga 5.13) where it is the custom / culture and so long as no being
was killed specifically for the leather.
Q. Some have said that what matters is the state of your mind, not your diet. A vegetarian
could have an impure mind and a meat eater could potentially have a pure mind, which is
paramount in Buddhism, so what difference does diet make?
A. An argument that some meat eating Buddhist teachers make is that what really matters is the
state of your mind. They say that a mind that is pure while eating meat is better than a mind that
is impure, but vegetarian. This argument takes aim at the importance of mind purification in the
Buddha's teachings. But this argument fails for two big reasons. If we take the view that we can
do whatever we want as long as our mind is pure, then we could never convict sociopathic
killers. Sociopaths commit crimes such as rape and murder and feel no remorse. They have a
clear mind about their actions. They know they are violating societies laws and just do not care.
They are care-free and go about their daily routines with no remorse. The Buddha specifically
stated that a clear mind does not get you off the hook. One monk performed immoral acts and
stated that "I feel neither ease nor discomfort, thus there will be no offense for me." The Buddha
responded, "whether this foolish man felt or did not feel, there is an offense." (Vinaya,
Suttavibhanga 3.36)
This argument that meat eating is okay with a clear mind also fails, because it does not take into
account the spiritual and biological effect of the food we eat. When you eat meat you are eating
the craving, fear, and poisons which the animal feels or secretes as it is being slaughtered. Since
a meditator is trying to alleviate craving and suffering it is best to avoid such poisons which
harm others and yourself. The Buddha and modern medical doctors have demonstrated the interconnection
of the mind-body with the famous saying ―you are what you eat. Many people are
vegetarians for the ethical and nutritional reasons and / or the benefits to the environment. But in
vipassana we realize that there is an advantage for the purification of the mind too. Albert
Einstein was a vegetarian and realized this connection with his statement, "It is my view that the
vegetarian way of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most
beneficially influence the lot of mankind."
The Buddhist commentaries on the suttas tell a story of two yogis who were very close to full
enlightenment. Then they ate some meat. This created an obstacle to the complete awakening,
which therefore, did not manifest. (Shabkar)
Since it is apparent that meat eating does effect the mind and continue the craving process and
the slaughterhouse process, it is important for Dhamma teachers to advise their students of the
risks to health and mind purification with the consumption of meat. Many teachers have avoided
this issue to stay away from controversy or to sell more books or get more followers. It would be
good if teachers would change as we have the evidence of the damage meat can do to health and
the mind. This does not need to be done in a forceful way, but in a way that recommends as a
helpful teacher leading by example, with compassion.
Many famous Buddhist leaders have adopted a vegetarian diet and have advocated a vegetarian
diet for their followers.
This includes:
Thich Nhat Hanh, founder of the socially engaged Buddhist ―Order of Interbeing.‖ He has
written at least one hundred books and has centers and monasteries around the world.
Ayya Khema, very famous German born nun who has written several Dhamma books and
opened many centers and monasteries in Europe and Sri Lanka. She was one of the first western
women to receive full ordination.
Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, author of the best selling book, Mindfulness in Plain English,
and founder and abbot of Bhavana Society in West Virginia is a vegetarian and the monks and
nuns at his retreat center are also vegetarian.
S. N. Goenka, perhaps the most famous lay Buddhist, who led a successful business and family
life along with the teaching of Dhamma. He has opened several Dhamma centers and is famous
for his ten day retreats using the body sensations, vipassana technique.
―Now I will tell you the rules of conduct for a householder, according to which, he becomes a
good disciple... Let him not destroy life nor cause others to destroy life and, also, not approve
of others' killing. Let him refrain from oppressing all living beings in the world, whether
strong or weak. Dhammika Sutta
Interestingly there is a Theravada monk by the name of Ven. Dhammika. He wrote the famous
Good Question, Good Answer. In the first edition, written nearly 25 years ago he came out very
strongly with the opinion that one does not need to be a vegetarian at all and vegetarian views are
basically wrong.
Since that time he has become a vegetarian and now he has come out with a fourth edition which
―Many people find that as they develop in the Dhamma that they have a natural tendency to
move toward vegetarianism. (Good Question, Good Answer, 4th edition)
Thich Nhat Hanh has said,
"To practice nonviolence, first of all we have to practice it within ourselves. In each of us,
there is a certain amount of violence and a certain amount of nonviolence. Depending on our
state of being, our response to things will be more or less nonviolent. Even if we take pride in
being vegetarian, for example, we have to acknowledge that the water in which we boil our
vegetables contains many tiny microorganisms. We cannot be completely nonviolent, but by
being vegetarian, we are going in the direction of nonviolence. If we want to head north, we
can use the North Star to guide us, but it is impossible to arrive at the North Star. Our effort is
only to proceed in that direction."
In this wonderful quote from Thich Nhat Hanh, he admits that we cannot be completely
nonviolent, but by being vegetarian, we are in the right direction. The violence to microorganisms,
plants, and minerals, or even the displacement of animals for construction is in no
way comparable to the screaming and pain of the slaughterhouse to highly sentient beings.
I like his analogy to the North Star too. To me, this says that it is true that vegetarianism is not
the goal of practice, liberation is the goal; but it does provide a light and direction for reaching
that goal.
Can you be a Buddhist and still eat meat? Yes, of course, everyone is at different places on the
path. Can you reach full liberation without following the North Star (vegetarianism), well
according to the Buddha's teachings one cannot intentionally violate any of the five precepts
(first precept is to not kill, cause to kill, or incite another to kill) and be a stream entrant or
higher. A stream entrant is just the first stage of enlightenment (followed by once-returner, nonreturner,and fully liberated arahant). To be just the first stage of stream entrant one cannot
purposely violate any of the five precepts. Does buying meat encourage or cause someone else
to kill another living sentient being? That is for each of us to study and contemplate with our
practice of meditation and Sutta study and come to our conclusions.
------------to be continued-----------

subset: commoncrawl


text:
So the first official GotG poster landed a few days back, and the tagline's tone definitely rings at the same register as the trailer.
Personally, we're pretty fond of the proposed retitles that have surfaced in the last couple days:
So is James Gunn:
I'm not sure Marvel's gonna love the retitle. pic.twitter.com/g0HRkN929R
— James Gunn (@JamesGunn) February 21, 2014
It's pretty hard not to rally behind a movie with a sense of humor – even harder when its director clearly shares that sense of humor.


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Ruth J. Parker, age 83, of Olean Rd., Chaffee, died Saturday March 24, 2012 in Mercy Hospital, Buffalo, N.Y.
She was born March 30, 1928 in Dahoga, a daughter of the late Charles G. and Agnes C. (nee Larson) Johnson. She was a homemaker and member of Hope Lutheran Church, Arcade, N.Y. She enjoyed knitting and loved the time spent with her family.
Her husband Earl F. Parker whom she married Aug. 6, 1949 in Buffalo died in 1988.
She is survived by three sons: Earl (Deborah) Parker of Wildwood, Fla.; Howard (Debra) Parker of Utica, N.Y.; Terry Parker of Chaffee, N.Y.; a daughter, Linda (David) Dawson of Holland, N.Y.; several grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great-great-grandchildren; a sister-in-law, Barbara Johnson of Abilene, Texas; and many nieces and nephews.
She was preceded in death by her parents; husband; sons Francis and Robert Parker; brothers Charles Johnson, Curtis Johnson, William Johnson and Clifford Olund; and sisters Goldie Wickwire and Anna Heckman.
Friends may call Tuesday, March 27 from 4-7 p.m. at W. S. Davis Funeral Home, Inc., 358 W. Main St., Arcade, N.Y. Services will be held Wednesday March 28 at 11 a.m. in the McKean Memorial Park Chapel, 85 Boylston St., Bradford, PA.
Memorials may be made to a charity of the donor's choice.


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Rockville biotechnology company Emergent BioSolutions plans to buy a Gaithersburg building and move its 112 employees at its headquarters there, as well as add 133 jobs over the next five years, executives said Monday.
As part of the deal, the Gaithersburg City Council was expected to consider awarding a $250,000 economic development grant to Emergent during its meeting Monday evening.
Over the past year, Emergent has conducted a search for new headquarters throughout the region, including Northern Virginia, said Tracey Schmitt, a company spokeswoman. The lease on Research Boulevard expires in early 2015, and the company plans to move out by then to the Gaithersburg building at 400 Professional Drive, contingent upon closing, she said.
The new jobs will be added in Gaithersburg, where Emergent already has a research and development facility at 300 Professional Drive with 123 employees that it has owned since 2009, she said. That building is adjacent to the one the company is targeting for its new base.
"The Gaithersburg property made sense for a multitude of reasons," Schmitt said. "It allows for us to consolidate operations, while accommodating for further growth. A lot of our employees live in the area. In addition, we believe having two adjacent buildings provides the opportunity to create a campus-like environment."
Emergent anticipates closing "in the near future," and it should take from nine to 12 months to complete the move to Gaithersburg upon closing, she said.
Corporate relocations of this size and quality "don't come every day," said Tom Lonergan, city of Gaithersburg director of economic development. He described the competition between cities and entities within Montgomery County for business headquarters as "fierce, but friendly."
"It's a tenants' market right now," Lonergan said. "There is a lot of space in the county and region."
Gaithersburg has enticed businesses to move from Rockville before, such as nonprofit health care network Adventist HealthCare in April. Rockville has attracted companies from Gaithersburg in turn, such as Meso Scale Discovery, which analyzes biological measurements. Rockville also landed the headquarters of Choice Hotels, formerly of Silver Spring, in April.
The grant would be the first from Gaithersburg for Emergent. And it would be only the fifth such incentive provided from the city's Economic Development Opportunities Fund, Lonergan said. Others have been made to Adventist HealthCare, biotech Novavax, food services company Sodexo and e-commerce business GXS.
Lonergan said his staff had done "a lot of due diligence" on Emergent in the past several months, and he believed the general consensus among Gaithersburg officials was that the deal is a "big win."
Emergent is also planning to open a new facility in Lansing, Mich., to expand production of BioThrax, its FDA-licensed anthrax vaccine. The company anticipates submitting relevant supplemental license application forms required by the FDA in late 2014 or early 2015, with the facility opening in "due course thereafter," Schmitt said.
Emergent, which has products combating tuberculosis, cancer and autoimmune disorders besides anthrax, already has a facility in Lansing, as well as a manufacturing plant in Baltimore. The business has about 900 employees spread over a dozen sites worldwide.
Emergent's predecessor company, BioPort Corp., formed in 1998, and did what relatively few biotechs do – turn a profit for an entire year within four years of forming. Last year, the company, which went public in 2006, saw net income rise 2 percent to $23.5 million from 2011. In the first six months this year, net income was $2.4 million, up from $800,000 in the first half of 2012.
Adventist HealthCare has leased space at Clarksburg Village Center for a new facility with primary care and other medical services, officials said in a statement on Monday. The center, developed by Elm Street Development and leased by NVRetail, is projected to open in about a year.
The Clarksburg site will include primary care, pediatric, obstetrics and gynecology and outpatient rehabilitation services. Adventist has an emergency center in Germantown, and Shady Grove Adventist Hospital is in Rockville.
A Harris Teeter grocery store is expected to open at Clarksburg Village Center in November.
Holy Cross Hospital plans to open a 237,000-square-foot hospital in Germantown by mid-2014 offering medical, surgical, obstetric, emergency and psychiatric care.


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This conversation is closed.
What is great teaching to you?
Great teaching is difficult to define as it is at least partly subjective, varies based on the discipline, and often varies in the results produced. It also might vary due to other factors, such as parental resources and support of students, school resources, attitudinal differences, etc. Answers can try to provide definitions or explanations of great teaching, and examples of great teachers they have known or who have taught them.
Feb 10 2013: Everyone knows that great teaching is about WHO not about WHAT. Great teaching therefore does not depend on the external qualities of the teachers such as their workshop, knowledge or number of certificates, but solely on their personal qualities.
Jesus, Buddha and Mahomet were all great teachers thanks to their inner qualities, not because they made everything seem plain and simple.Feb 22 2013: Great teaching for me is when a teacher don't give you all the answers but help you find them by your self. Great teaching for me is encouraging the questioning attitude, reasoning and deduction, which exercise your brain, enriches your mind and give you the tools to confront the different challenges of your life.Feb 16 2013: Great teaching requires a connection between student and teacher. The teacher must be able to recognize the strengths and weakness of their student and help guide them to resources. The goal is to help the student learn how to learn.
Sherrlene Uy
Feb 16 2013: For me, great teaching happens when your students see you as someone they needed because they themselves want to learn rather than seeing you as a terror freak who scares the hell out of their nerves.
- +1
I believe that there are great teachers (like those awesome and really intelligent ones) but still fail to CONNECT to their students. An effective teacher is a great messenger of ideas. CONNECTION that is. We need to be able to connect to our students. If we are successful in connecting with them, it is safe to say that they will have grasps of whatever we teach them. Thus, creating "new kinds" of individuals who can take part in building the society.
I guess that's the measurement of great teaching. It must be able to sustain lifelong relevance to the kids.
Shaun Myers
Feb 14 2013: The ability, as a student, to be drawn into a subject by a passionate and dynamic teacher who gently guides you to uncover pertinent information and leaves you hungry to continue learning past the primary objective.
- +1
Marc Engel
Feb 12 2013: As Kate Blake said, it is about passion. Not just a passionate teacher, which is essential though, but the ability to create this passion in the students. To really get them emotionaly involved in the topic will create a desire for more knowledge. Not everyone can be able to be inflamed with every topic, but they will have something else which is 100% their thing. And this passion, in whatever area it lies, should be identified and encouraged.
- +1
Linda Taylor
Feb 10 2013: When there is great learning, there is great teaching.
- +1
When you can affect a persons values and have resultant changes in behavior, decisions, and actions, you have done some great teaching.
pat gilbert
Feb 10 2013: To me it is great communication. This is rare and so is great teaching. Take a look at Fritzie Reisner's comments I think, she is starting to get the hang of this teaching thing.
- +1
You ask what is great communication? Being interested, while being cheerful, with out evaluation of the student, without invalidation of the student, stated at an appropriate way so the student understands, with a proper acknowledgment of the student, and most of all getting the student to receive the idea and measure and weigh the idea and be able to use it.
The opposite of this is memorization. Knowledge by definition is applied, no application = no knowledgeFeb 10 2013: For me great teaching is making one's mind ready and capable of learning fast and if required unlearn even faster.Feb 22 2013: I see themes of passion and connection in this thread. While connection and passion are amazing qualities of teachers, i believe the absolute pinnacle of teaching is the ability to spark a student's interest. Passion and connection are means to this end, but even the most passionate and connecting teacher can go wrong if they don't provide practical or real world problems.
As a logical extension of this idea, a great teacher is never afraid to admit they don't know something, or that they haven't fully explored a topic. The best teachers are those that give enough information to develop a knowledge base, and then ask hard, thought provoking questions.
And obviously, even the best teacher can't teach a student that just doesn't want to learn. But the most impacting teachers are those that foster curiosity.Feb 12 2013: Teaching is an attitude. Where there is somebody teaching, there is a need for someone ready to be taught. Once you have that, you have attention and interest. With that on display, you can go on and offer the right amount of information, knowledge and guidance and build that wonderful and mysterious aura around anything, usually called 'topic' but better if perceived as the 'wow' moment. The final touch would be freedom, for them to go and find out more about it and for you, to build on it and endlessly improving yourself and your teaching.Feb 11 2013: End driven, teaching for the sake of more than just teachingFeb 10 2013: I slightly believe I teach my eight-year-old niece things, but it's mostly just by talking to her, playfully talking to her, calling her out when she says something illogical and making her keep talking until she cleans up her thinking (or I find out she was right and I was wrong.)Feb 10 2013: G'day Catherine
Wisdom within the knowing!!
MathewFeb 10 2013: I think one of the attributes of a great teacher is having the humility that would allow a pupil to outgrow or outshine oneself.
One of the things it is not is simply imparting information that is easily available elsewhere.Feb 10 2013: Great teaching is when a teacher exceeds his/her objectives.
If those objectives are not clearly defined, great teaching will be undefined.


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If I say "Ja klar", What are the different meanings expressed by this expression?
Take the 2-minute tour ×
German Language Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for speakers of German wanting to discuss the finer points of the language and translation. It's 100% free, no registration required.
I think that there are three main meanings for this expression.
The meanings are quite the same as of its verbatim translation
As in English, it depends on the context if it should be interpreted literally or ironic. And as in English, if you hear this answer, there are situations where you can't be shure if it is meant literally or ironic.
It means "But of course..." and then the speaker says more on the subject. It is usually in response to a question requiring a confirmation.


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The world has closely watched what Pippa Middleton has worn since we met her.
This week, the younger sister of Kate Middleton, otherwise known as the Duchess of Cambridge, stepped out in the same sheath that we'd seen starlet Emmy Rossum sport days earlier.
Emmy Rossum (Splash News)
What they wore: Tabitha Webb's Breast Cancer Summer Blossom dress, which, before it sold out, was $391.88.
[Related: Fashion Faceoff: Jennifer Aniston vs. Kate Moss]
When they wore it: The 29-year-old royal in-law donned the dress at the Waitrose Summer Party at the Natural History Museum in London on Wednesday. Meanwhile, Rossum, 26, wore the dress while strolling through Beverly Hills last week.
How they styled it: For Middleton, a pair of peach heels, a nude clutch, and elegant gold jewelry were perfect. Rossum, who wore sandals, added fun accessories by way of a big red bag and a long chain necklace.
[Related: Kate Middleton Shares Secrets of the Royal Nursery]
Judge's scorecard: Both win props for wearing a dress for a good cause — 30 percent of the purchase price goes to the CFDA's Fashion Targets Breast Cancer — which is always in style. While Middleton was lovely as always, do you think she looked a little too sweet?
Vote now!
More Celebrity Features on Yahoo!:
- Fashion Lessons We've Learned From 'Arrested Development'
- Carrie Underwood Donated How Much to the Red Cross?!
- Heidi Klum, Janet Jackson, and More Go Glam at amfAR Gala (Photos)
- Arts & Entertainment
- Celebrities
- Kate Middleton
- Emmy Rossum


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Use it on your own by rolling on it on the floor or have a friend run it up and down your back.
Step 1: Materials
Two tennis balls and 2 ft of duck tape.
I love this site! Very smart!
NEVER USE WIKIPEDIA TO WIN AN ARGUMENT.... Wikipedia is created by users who think they know things. Usually it is correct in general, however among what is correct, can hide things incorrect. It's just never smart to use a database that is maintained by those who view it, for an argument.
how do those people get their facts? do they do every bit of research themselves? no, they ask experts, they outsource.
i think wikipedia is better. and at the very least, it's no worse.
And as you stated, it's maintained by the general population.... how many times have you been able to get the inner working of a nuclear reactor from a person you meet on the sidewalk, or can joe shmoe tell you how an aircraft's gyro works? Not likely, and those that can.... probably won't waste their time typing it all out on wikipedia, since there are THOUSANDS of other area's to reference that material.
History is not any less of a task to get correct, than a reactor, so why would you leave it up to those who think they have something to contribute, or have read something in a magazine?! I'd rather know from a reputable source, and in my opinion, wiki is not even close.
But hey, it's my opinion, and everyone is entitled to one... so yours is just as valid, have a good one!
Personally, I'd consider it edit worthy, but just because it's a minor thing and online, I normally wouldn't have said anything. The only reason I did here was because you called out jorge3094, and corrupted the definition even further. If you'd like to continue the conversation more, PM me. I don't think there is much else not worthy to say here, and I don't want to fill this project's comments with our dispute. No hard feelings?
Thank you, Carleyy!
If you drill holes part way through a couple of solid core golf balls (the liquid filled ones are messy) then thread a piece of threaded rod between them, you can get pretty deep into the back muscles.
Don't forget to leave enough of a gap between the balls so as not to rub on your spine!
For chronic foot pain try freezing the golf balls and rolling it with your bare foot.
Cheers, and happy massaging


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Whole wheat flour/atta- 3 cups(more for dusting)
Maida/All purpose flour- 1 cup
Warm water- 3/4 cup
Yogurt- 1/2 cup
Honey- 1/4 cup
Turmeric powder-1tsp
Red chilly powder-1tsp
Kasuri methi- 1tsp
Mix the yeast in warm water and allow it to froth for 10 minutes. Then add the sugar and salt followed by the all purpose flour and 2 cups of atta. Use a whisk to mix everything together. Then add the yogurt and honey. Mix well. Now use your palms to knead the dough. Use rest of the wheat flour to form a smooth, loose and non sticky pliable dough. Add oil in the end and ensure the dough is coated with oil. Cover the dough with a kitchen towel. Allow it to rise for 2-3 hours till the volume is almost doubled.
Punch the dough.Add the turmeric powder, red chilly powder and kasuri methi to it. Knead the dough well so that the spices mix well with the dough. Use more flour if you find the dough very sticky. Pinch a lemon sized piece from the dough. Make a smooth ball with it. Repeat the same with rest of the dough. Allow it to rise for 30 -40 minutes. Brush some melted butter mixed in equal quantity of milk on the risen dough. (You can use egg wash for brushing too.)
Bake for 180c for 20 minutes. It should appear brown on surface and should sound hollow when you tap the bun. However the buns are quite dense and chewy because of the use of whole wheat flour.


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Beauty and Wellness
Massage Envy
"Achieve a Healthy Balance"
Massage therapy is a vital component to enjoying a healthier lifestyle. At your nearby Seal Beach Massage Envy clinic, our professional Massage Therapists are available weeknights and weekends to help you feel better when it's most convenient for you.
Welcome to Massage Envy.
We are pleased to share with you some information about massage therapy, our services and our programs. The American Massage Therapy Association reports that more people than ever are receiving therapeutic massages for a multitude of reasons. Some of the benefits of massage include relaxation, stress reduction, sore muscle relief, increased blood circulation, pain management, injury recovery and rehabilitational therapy. We have learned the primary reasons that people do not receive massages on a regular basis are time and price. Massage Envy has partnered with massage therapists whose prime objective is to be available more hours and charge less so that more people can take advantage of their services. We have utilized a membership based approach that brings massage therapy out of the elite and expensive circle and makes it available to everyone. We are committed to delivering a highly professional, very convenient and affordable experience every time. Thank you for your interest in Massage Envy.
Massage therapy relaxes muscles, easing and soothing your aches and pains. It rejuvenates-- restoring balance to our body and being, making us better for all the things life throws our way. Massage Envy believes every body deserves a great customized massage, so we've made relaxation convenient. We offer flexible appointment times to fit the busiest of schedules, hundreds of locations nationwide and professional Massage Therapists to customize the perfect massage designed to fit your life. Oh, and did we mention the great price? It's what's made us the leading provider of massage therapy in the U.S. And with so many options, a great massage is always within your reach. Just ask our members. Customized Massage Therapy Massage Envy offers many different types of massage to choose from: Swedish massage for overall body relaxation. Deep tissue massage to loosen those stubborn knots that keep your muscles tied up and tense. Sports massage to stretch marathon runners and weekend warriors alike. Pre-Natal massage for soon-to-be moms, and Reflexology for you new parents who forget to take care of yourselves. Best of all, every massage is customized to your specific needs. Think you don't have time? We're even open when little ones are tucked in for the night, and Walk-Ins are always welcome so you can revitalize without reworking your schedule. Make Massage Therapy part of your Wellness Program Whether you're looking to relieve stress, lower your blood pressure, or you're interested in getting some much needed relaxation, Massage Envy's 600 convenient locations, flexible scheduling, and affordable prices make enjoying a little slice of heaven easy any time you like! Visit once in a while, once a week or once a month--learn more about our wellness benefits program and how you can enjoy a great customized massage as often as you'd like with a Massage Envy membership.
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(expectant mothers, children travelling alone, passengers in need of medical assistance, etc.)
For groups from 10 persons, please book via our group bookings department
For trips containing more than 2 airports
Cameroon has beautiful countryside views and is a top cultural attraction. Its 6 national parks, which are ideal for safaris, are certainly popular among tourists. Cameroon has more than 15 million inhabitants, but is mainly populated by animals. The forests are inhabited by crocodiles, bongos and various species of ape.
Douala features an excellent location along the coast as well as a large number of sights that make it popular among tourists ...
Over the past few years, Yaoundé has transformed itself from a peaceful, sleepy colonial settlement to a friendly, lively city with a lot of sights and local markets.


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Welcome, guest
Like us on Facebook for inter-esting movie poster-related stuff:
Braveheart posterCopyright by respective production studio and/or distributor. Intended for editorial use only.
Directed by: Mel Gibson
Cast: Mel Gibson, Brendan Gleeson, Sophie Marceau, Brian Cox, Ian Bannen, Catherine McCormack, Patrick McGoohan, Angus Macfadyen, Stephen Billington, James Cosmo, Tommy Flanagan, Bernard Horsfall, Sean Lawlor, Seán McGinley, Gerard McSorley, Peter Mullan, David O'Hara -I-, Rupert Vansittart
Links: Braveheart movie stills


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Double Racer Back Dress
Detailshttp://www.dkny.com/sale/womens-sale/dresses/double-racer-back-dress/P147093J.html Style Number: P147093J
$395.00 $157.99
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Additional Information
DescriptionPrint Modern tech stretch sleeveless dress with double racer back detail and flare skirt. As seen on the runway.
Fabric & Care
- Imported
- 66% Triacetate 34% Polyester "Exclusive Of Trim"
- Place Garment in Mesh Bag Prior to Cleaning. Professionally Dry Clean Only, Reduced Heat, Moisture and Cycle. Cool Iron. Use Press Cloth.
Perfect Together:


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Special Values - June 2010
From Gluten-Free Trading Company
It's Barbeque Time
Gluten-Free Trading Company is your gluten-free barbeque headquarters. Our Schar Classic White Rolls and Schar Ciabatta Rolls make great hamburger buns. We have hot dog buns from Ener-G and Kinnickinnick, BBQ sauces from Daddy Sam's, Organicville, and Milwaukee's own Saz's. Plus condiments, seasonings, and more. Stop by the store or see the BBQ section of our website for all the details.
Sanavi Harisin Penne is a high-quality European pasta that is very similar to Bi-Aglut. Like BA it's made from a blend of rice, corn, and lupin and has an excellent taste and texture. The packaging is not as flashy as its competitor and perhaps that's why some of our stock has reached its May 31, 2010 "best before" date. This is a dry pasta product and still in great condition. Priced to move: originally $7.99, while supplies last get the big 17.6 ounce bags for just $4.99!
1¼ lb Gluten Free Oats Now Just 4.99
We offer two sizes of Gluten-Free Oats brand old-fashioned rolled oats: a 1.25 pound box and a 2.56 ounce bag. We guessed wrong: customers went for the big bags and left the smaller boxes sitting on the shelf. As a result, some boxes have reached their May 31, 2010 "best before" dates. Still in great shape, we've deeply discounted them: originally $6.99, now just $4.99 while supplies last.
©2010 Gluten-Free Trading Company, LLC