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- Leo Genazzano
- Padova
- Italy
This conversation is closed.
How can wisdom be gained?
"A wise person is made not born".
Is this true? Why?
If it is, how is wisdom accumulated? And why is it 'practical' ?
Oct 9 2012: Wisdom I think, cannot be gained nor accumulate but shows itself spontaneously by opening the heart.
Wisdom has no need for education for it's directed by love, presented with humility and the cause of a deep understanding.
It is found among. men and women, among young and old, the literate as well the illiterate..
Oct 9 2012: Opening one heart is merely a figure of speech and metaphorical. What actually occurs physically? Wisdom hardly needs be presented with humility. Also, what is necessary to recognize this kind of wisdom your describing?
Oddly enough if one Googles "Wisdom" one will find that most of the links are associated with religious references.
Your reply implies a spiritual aspect as well, which creates an impression that wisdom has no secular meaning.
Oct 10 2012: Opening ones heart is metaphorical for connecting with the one heart we all share and to be aware that all living is one life. As Juliette says wisdom is born into our being but we forget it by learning stories that in the end covers all truth.
It is wise to feel first and to think later.
Spiritual is secular plus wisdom, religion is cultural.Oct 9 2012: Ik hoor je Frans. Wijsheid is aangeboren voor alle schepping. Verloren door de slechte geheugen van een generatie. Het is altijd aanwezig en het is onze keuze om het te vinden ...... door zich stil en het beklimmen van de roert van het bewustzijn. Vandaag heb ik verveelde me dus ik besloot om nederlandse :) leren en te fleuren deze grijze dag ....... Ik hoop dat je het niet erg :)
Oct 10 2012: Your translation is a funny fuzzy wordmix Juliette.
Yet you've brightened my day anyway.
Oct 11 2012: Men kan nooit genoeg vrienden in dit leven.Oct 10 2012: De mijne ookOct 9 2012: First we have to understand what wisdom is, which has stumped me many many times.Oct 12 2012: Experience is of supreme value in life.
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.
A smart person learns from their mistakes.
A wise person learns from others. (mistakes)Oct 10 2012: By looking at the other side of the river and realizing that we ARE on the other side.
By emptying our cup to fill it up again - unlearning what we learned to learn new things, forgetting past experiences to give room for new ones, serving others to rule over them, dying to live, etc.
By using reason to explain what does not make sense. By not using reason to explain what is unreasonable. What makes sense does not need an explanation.
To see things clearly, we need to stop seeing things that are not there (e.g. any meaning in these words).
Wisdom is understanding nonsense. :-)Oct 9 2012: Deep within, Plato says, one experiences a field of life that is pure, eternal, immortal, unified, and unchanging. Plato calls this state wisdom. The practical part of being wise is to be able to put your understanding into practice, to make a difference in your life and the lives of others.
Oct 9 2012: I agree..Plato states it with unparalleled beauty....
and Socrates : "Wisdom begins in wonder.
Oct 10 2012: Hi, Juliette !
Yes, wonder , beauty is the key ; the final call that directs to truth is always aesthetic.
The capacity to wonder is the special gift of childhood that is destroyed by the act of growing up.
What is actually growing up ? Our ego , the ego leads very quickly to separation and spiritual cul de sac...So , maybe the right question is not how wisdom can be gained , but how it can be restored or not lost ? Tame your ego and your wisdom will shine again. At least we should be aware that raise of ego was the wrong-turning :)
Oct 10 2012: It seems that the ego is actually what grows and changes along with the body. Healthy ego in children: "wow!! I can see my hand....hey I can crawl" ...I can walk...I can open a door.......In young adults: "let me help that blind person across the street...Wow I am strong...let me lift the heavy groceries for that elderly lady". We can further inflate our ego by pumping up our muscles or buying a sports car, or marrying someone half our age, etc ;-) Perhaps luckily ......"The ego is as permanent as are bodies" (Ernst Mach), which explains why when on the other side of youth, as age takes away the eye catching symbols of pride, then wisdom has a chance to show itself again:)Oct 10 2012: It has something to do with pineal gland / the third eye/ the seat of the soul . It is constructed like an eye with all its eye rods and cones, it observes the light flashing inside the brain. It is observing the reality within.So to awaken the third eye, one must look within for the unconscious as Jung puts it, there is no room for ego.
From Wikipedia : "The human pineal gland grows in size until about 1–2 years of age, remaining stable thereafter...".
And a match from the older source :
" Except you become as little children you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven "
Interesting ....:)
Oct 10 2012: That is a relief !!!!Oct 11 2012: " The whole purpose of education is to recapture the mind of a child "
( A Chinese philosopher, don't remember the name )
So, there is a hope , we can educate or reeducate ourselves to become curious like children ; ask questions always , not enjoy gained answers like adults do :)
Oct 11 2012: as we get older i think we get into malformation,children is the most right direction we should go to .as long as in china what runs like that .many men throw half of their food just in order to keen on face-saving.it is not a good thing ,Oct 11 2012: There is hope for adults... an adult must climb up the ladder of wonder and innocence in order to live in heaven.Oct 16 2012: Challenge accepted
Challenge: Wisdom is when your reaction is equal to what you would've done if you had time to think about it.
So experience is really the cornerstone of wisdom, if you want to be wiser you have to get out there and experience something new, (or maybe see someone else do it.) Because, as I see it, you can only become so familiar with something that your first thought/reaction is the right one, through a massive collection of trail and errors.
Also I wonder if you get some good advice, and you can just imagine the situation(s) where this would come in handy, or get the adviser to tell a few examples, and in that way internalize this advise - put it into the subconscious - thus improving your wisdom?Oct 14 2012: Wisdom is the form of love.
Love is the why, wisdom is the how, and use is the result.
End, Cause and Effect.
So, love without wisdom is nothing, wisdom without love does nothing.
The quality of the love sets the quality of the wisdom and so the quality of the person. So, we are what we love.
Oct 16 2012: Yep... 1 Corinthians 13.
Focusing on love is a good advice. This is true of hate as well. If we focus on hate, we become what we hate.If in doubt, try hating intolerant people.
"Love your enemy..." We are our own enemy (?) ... Hmm... I need to meditate on that...
We are what we eat also. Avoid nuts in your diet. :)
Oct 16 2012: Seems to me that those that think differently than we do, we see as enemies. We need only little reason to kill them, especially if they go after our nuts in our diet.. :)
John Barbuto
Oct 10 2012: Wisdom is gained by broadening one's frame of reference for understanding and acting from a broad view of potential consequences. The answer of how gain wisdom derives from this framework. Or, so it seems to me.Oct 10 2012: I believe that humans are born in the innocence of ignorance. The object of life is to progress to the innocence of wisdom. Innocence is the willingness to be led by another.
- +1
Wisdom consists in perceiving, willing and doing truths from love, and it involves an appetite for the good that comes out of, or is caused by, truth. It is, however, distinct from knowledge and intelligence, but these may lead to wisdom and are necessary for it.
Just telling a kid what they did was stupid, does not do any good. A loving approach would do much more good.
There are some very knowledgeable and intelligent people in jail, but would we call them wise?Oct 10 2012: Yes..... In my case almost always through the billfold. I now have the wisdom to understand I am not a plumber .... a electrician .... and many other things I tell myself no sweat I can do this.
The most terrifying words in my house is; "Dad said he will fix it".
Oct 10 2012: i think you are happy .with a dad that you can let him do the work that
and i think you are lucky that you have a dad who can help you a lot in your life .
and i think you are lucky that you can have much more rest .Oct 10 2012: Re: "The most terrifying words in my house is; "Dad said he will fix it"."
Brilliant advice for those who thinks that somebody "will fix it for them" and for those who thinks they "can fix it all by themselves". I would put this on a church billboard :-).Oct 9 2012: Some think that what we recognize as wisdom is the result of multiple connections between neurons.
Our brains absorb data, this data becomes information by linking the data together into neural networks, and in turn, information becomes knowledge. Knowledge can grow to be wisdom.
A good analogy would be the way the letters of the alphabet can be combine to form words. These words can be placed in an order that forms sentences, which can then form paragraphs, essays and books. These all provide information and even knowledge. Wisdom is more abstract, in that it seems to be insight that is gained from a collection of knowledge.
"Wisdom is not what is wise, but that by which it is wise; not what should be done, but why it should be done; not the answer, but the explanation."
Oct 10 2012: Looks like you're talking about my car.
Everything is very beautifully linked in different networks. All parts are combined to form a car. Many of its parts "provide information and even knowledge."
Sometimes it has the "insight" to lock the doors or stop a wheel from slipping.
Elizabeth Gu
Oct 9 2012: Having an ability to find a difference between being reckless and being brave could be one way to be wise, I suspect.
- +1
While being logical, if a person can embrace another, he's wise.
Even though I can't precisely define who a wise person is.
We just know when see 'wise people'.
What's interesting is that some people regarded as wise ones aren't always wise.
They sometimes seem to be not enough(to be called "the wise")
So it's like we happen to see traces of wisdom every day from the people we know of or from some events or from books, newspapers we read.
Besides, from every proverb we hear from our parents and older generation could be slice-of-wisdom that shows our ancestors' wisdom.Oct 9 2012: What I have learned by seeking wisdom:
1. You should never be satisfied with what you think/feel you know.
At the point where you think/feel you have gained wisdom, you should disregard the thought/feeling. If it is practical (useful and able to be built upon) no amount of rejecting can prevent the understanding. What tends to be practical does not consist solely upon static understanding, but majorly anticipates evolution and change.
2. Individually we are limited to one perspective, so strive to not be an individual; desire multiple consciousnesses.
Approach life realizing you know nothing, and look to others to configure what we collectively do not know. The happiest and/or most positive decision may not be the best in longevity; treat both the bad and good as equal momentarily in order to configure what 'works' in the long run. *Whether what 'works' is for yourself or everyone, is a question of virtue.
(Appropriate school of thought: Existential Nihilism)
3. Language is prior to understanding everything; words convey thoughts.
Words are your friend as well as your enemy; treat them with the same respect you would the person you are talking with. Just like the idea/word of God varies from place to place, one must question what others mean when metaphysical concerns are being analyzed. Be mindful of the culture and society you are responding with.
(Example: Platinum rule) (Relative ideologies: Ignosticism)
Questions I ponder from what I learned:
*Does virtue equal wisdom? Can a wise person have no virtue? Can a virtuous man have no wisdom?
What does virtuous thinking look like; what is a positive spectrum of thought? When does or should knowledge and morality disconnect?
If knowledge equals power, then what are we striving to gain power for? Altruism? Selfishness?
What is the 'one' focal point where all questions lead? Is there there such a point of singularity?
Oct 9 2012: "*Does virtue equal wisdom? Can a wise person have no virtue? Can a virtuous man have no wisdom? "
I think your asking some very important questions here. My question in return is what role do origins play in this quest? Is a man who has been conditioned to be virtuous also a man of wisdom? Is he still considered a man of virtue?
Oct 9 2012: Aesthetically... origin stories... they please mankind because it satisfies metaphysical longings. Wanting to know how we began is arguably wired into our brain. Whether the wiring is natural, or a response to evolving culturally; is a great question.
Religiously; groupthought. The origin stories are less important than the entire group believing the story.
I find that the question of 'God' assimilates a lot of euphoric thoughts. Therefore, God is all knowing and all good, so to aim towards finding God will access virtuous thinking (feeling enlightened while acting/thinking), or at least the thought-feeling you are being virtuous... Project this determination into a group mindset = hard to change either mindset.
Objectively, I don't think origin stories are as much to blame as cultural-based virtues. Christians do a lot of work to feed children around the world, yet the whole world is responsible for millions of them dying a year from starvation. No logical conclusion is being made, rather, the position no system is teaching virtuous thinking apparently. Perhaps if nationalism equates virtue, like Socrates in the Crito. Which I disagree.
"One will do what is right or best just as soon as one truly understands what is right or best" - Socrates.
Virtue epistemology or epistemological ethics, has been around forever.
Why did we ignore those propositions?
So, I sum up with this; longevity mindsets is a major key for virtue. Good for health also.Oct 9 2012: Interesting question Brian!
Virtue: "strength; courage; commendable quality or trait; capacity to act; moral excellence; beneficial quality or power"
Wisdom: ";accumulated philosophic or scientific learning; ability to discern inner qualities and relationships; insight; good sense; a wise attitude or course of action;"
From the basic definitions, it seems that virtue and wisdom support each other?
I cannot imagine how a wise person would not have virtue (strength; courage; commendable quality or trait; capacity to act; moral excellence; beneficial qualities).
And I also cannot imagine how a virtuous person would not be wise (accumulated learning; ability to discern inner qualities and relationships; insight; good sense; wise attitude or course of action).
Wisdom and virtue both provide a foundation for the other....what do you think? Can you think of a situation where a person may NOT have all of these qualities?
Oct 10 2012: I think it all depends on the social context. Is a person wise to have moral excellence in a vicious narcissistic environment where altruistic qualities would be maladaptive? Im not sure, we are humans and have evolved to be social creatures so this question may be unanswerable. However I guess if I have to take a stance on this I think it is impossible to be either virtuous and unwise or to be wise and unscrupulous. They seem to go hand in hand and from my personal experience the times i had no virtue I certainly wasn't wise. I don't claim wisdom and hope I never do, but I know when i try to behave virtuously i am more at peace with myself. Either way they seem to work in unison colleen, good question.Oct 9 2012: Is a wise man virtuous? No. And Yes.
If we think of a typical evil villain (let's say a mad scientist wishes to destroy the world) he may "have" wisdom but he chooses to ignore it. On the other hand, is he really wise if he ignores it?
On the other hand, imagine a villager who is innocent to the point of gullibility. He is charitable and kind and loving, bla bla bla. If he gives away all his possessions in order to rid his village of poverty and lets himself be tricked by men who wish to get a bit of free money, he is most certainly unwise. But no one can argue that he is not virtuous.
Oct 10 2012: Maybe the man who gave away everything to those who wish to extort him is not virtuous. Maybe he knew he would perpetuate a pathological selfishness in these men/women by offering everything up. Or maybe he meant to propose a choice where one either listens to the conscience or ignores it. Could be either...Oct 30 2012: Leo and Brian,
Using the example of an evil villain who wishes to destroy the world, who may have wisdom and chooses to ignore it, you ask Leo,..."...is he really wise if he ignores it?" In my perception, he is neither wise OR virtuous! It seems unwise to ignore wisdom in oneself for the purpose of destroying the world! I do not think wisdom can be ignored, because, in my perception, it is a "knowing".....too much a genuine part of us to be ignored.
Regarding the villager who gives away all his possessions...
I agree with Brian that there could be many underlying influences for his decision, so I could indeed argue that he may not be virtuous.Oct 9 2012: Hello Mr. Lukowiak!
Thanks for writing here. I have a question about something you wrote in your text.
Words. Wonderful words. Why are they important? You said : "Language is prior to understanding everything; words convey thoughts." So if I come from a setting where words are used seldom and my vocabulary is limited, am i less wise? Am I stupid because I am often speechless? And if I like to think in colors and pictures, am I inferior to others?
Yours sincerely
Oct 9 2012: Even if this exchange was verbal, you would still rely on words - whether they are few and limited.
I don't feel frequency (amount of words) is as important as the context or content.
No words at all... That's a situational concern. When and why would you have nothing to say, is as important as what you are not/reject responding to.
I feel it is 'how' you think and not 'what' you think that matters most. The process, not the results - should be continually analyzed. However, the 'what' and the results are still important.
So, if you use less words, does not mean anything. Speechlessness is the state prior to finding something to say, so not stupid. I doubt anyone purely thinks in colors and pictures, but if they did, I (or anyone) has a way to determine if it is interior in anyway.Oct 8 2012: I believe wisdom can only be accumulated through pain and error. While it sounds morose, experience alone does not insure your wisdom: does the fact you are older make you wiser? I do not believe that true. Rather, I think the intensity of the experience and your choices decide whether you become 'wiser'.
Oct 9 2012: Intensity can turn you away from wisdom. Learning wisdom requires we think about the experience, turn it over and around in our minds so it settles firmly. Learning this lesson early in life can make you a wiser person in your later years. If you lean it later in life, it will still serve you well.
Regrettably, wisdom can have a half-life and be lost altogether by mental disease such as Alzheimer.
This brings up the question of whiter wisdom is really the main reason for living life. Can a person live a full and comfortable life with only simple wisdom at their command? Should a person's sole reason for living be devoted to learning wisdom?Oct 19 2012: Wisdom comes from the capacity to learn, the hability to listen and the most important, acknowledging our own ignorance
W. Ying
Oct 16 2012: I think:
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The virtue (SYNBIOTC rules, conscience, moral, ...) comes form:
(1) Mainly from our DNA (ancestors' successful experiences), and
(2) Partly from learning in our life.
Wrong?Oct 16 2012: Wisdom is finding who we are.
If we dig deep inside, we can find ourselves [even] at the bottom of a trash can.
Happy National Grouch Day, everybody!
Let's have a schadenfreude party!Oct 14 2012: YO! Cool answers. Oh, and by the way, dear TEDies, whenever answering to the challenge please write "Challenge : " before the answer.
Teedle-deeOct 12 2012: 50 comments! Yay! I really like your thoughts and ideas, TEDies.
However, I noticed most of the comments here are smart yet complicated to the degree of having an average of 10 letters per word. I would like to pose a challenge.
Challenge: Write a definition of 'wisdom' in a single sentence. Each word is not allowed to have more than four syllables.
Enjoy.Oct 12 2012: Wisdom can be obtained over time, of course, and make up for our general diminishing of reflexes and intelectual ability. In fact, I believe that's what keeps us going as we get older, as what we have learned over the years serves the useful purpose of making us more knowledgeable and capable in different fields. I guess that's the only way to contend with the younger generations.
Practice makes perfect.Oct 11 2012: A couple of days ago, I read a very interesting article of reasons and intuitions.
According to that article, when two people are arguing each other, each one has different concepts of "I have a hunch." And when they try to persuade each other, they use logic to make sense. Even if what the opposition part is illustrating sounds reasonable, one can't be convinced because there's his intuition that tells him, "What he's saying is wrong. You're right. You just don't know how to express yourself more clearly." So, reasons can't be the only factor to convince someone.
Some disagrees with the author of article, but I think it's quite probable in many ways. Some TED talks are very logical and well-organized, but sometimes I think there's something I want to disagree with the speakers. But for me, TED speakers with reasons and also various ways of emotional approaches are pretty inspiring. Perhaps TED is one of the places where 'practical' wisdom is quite prevailing. Not just by mere cleverness, but with creative ways of approaching each one's intuition field, a speaker can be glowing, which I admire.
And when he is, we applaud out of gratitude, realization and with unutterable joy for the reason that we find a practical wisdom, which enriches our lives including the very moment of listening to him from the talk.
Oct 11 2012: David Hume mentioned in 1739 that "An opinion... or belief may be most accurately defined, a lively idea related to or associated with a present impression." Experience or reasoning increases the "vivacity" of the impression or idea making us believe. Belief in itself is always based on emotions. Reasoning matters only as much as it affects our emotions. Modern psychology also reveals that we make most judgments subconsciously, without even being aware of how we arrive at our conclusions. At least, this is what I believe too :-). I "feel" that humans are much less reasonable beings than they like to think of themselves.
Julian Jaynes mentioned: "Logic is the science of the justification of conclusions we have reached by natural reasoning. My point here is that, for such natural reasoning to occur, consciousness is not necessary. The very reason we need logic at all is because most reasoning is not conscious at all."
This is what I meant by saying "What makes sense does not need an explanation."
Oct 12 2012: Thanks for your reply. Yeah, that reminds me of a remark of David Hume… Reason is the "slave of the passions", which Kant disagrees. Actually Kant admitted the fact that emotions and other desires in ourselves could affect us, that is, he didn't deny the existence of our emotions even though he argues we should cling to reasons and act according to the very laws we give ourselves autonomously (with logical process). Personally I love Kant's idea more than empiricists like David although I found the article very convincing. According to Kant, the fact that principle of morality is dependent on some duty made by pure practical reasons makes me somewhat less uneasy(so to speak) since if it's true, then, the way to serve justice in our society is seemingly clearer than relying on utilitarianism, which contains various contingencies.
Anyway, I agree with your last part of comment, "What makes sense does not need an explanation." Do you think this is because we, humans, have basically same intuition that makes us sympathize with each other(unconsciously)? Or since we are rational beings, do we almost come to same conclusion, "This really makes sense, very logical." ? Perhaps, in our subconscious, we might have both of capability to think logically and to have the same hunch..? Now thanks to (modern)psychology, we can find answers quite flexibly compared to those great philosophers in the past… :)Oct 10 2012: Ah, Leo, it's all about experience. That's what it takes to gain wisdom. When you experience, you see new stuff and improve your senses, response and perceptions about the world around you. It's not necessary only old people are wise, you just have to go out into the world and see stuff for yourself because wisdom has no age - it's all in your head!Oct 10 2012: It feels like wisdom can be gained just through knowledge of all that we experience, but when we think we're nearly there, one realises how little we know.
For wisdom, I think it's better to have breadth of experience, rather than depth. By going too deep into isolated specialisms, one loses the all-important context of that knowledge and of how it interacts with other branches of knowledge.
Knowledge on its own is just remembered facts - not wisdom. However, context and interrelatedness go some way in transforming that knowledge into wisdom.
It's interesting that in education we measure intelligence and wisdom primarily on miniscule parts of our brain's capability - usually memory.
True wisdom is an accumulation of all that our minds are capable of conceiving and perceiving, tempered by morality and ethics, and made accessible by empathy.
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens"Oct 9 2012: You are wise to ask this question...Oct 9 2012: Wisdom is gained by knowledge and experience. But experience in this case has nothing to do with lengthy years of doing something.
Wisdom can be gained by a passionate search for knowledge, combined with adoption of the strategies, principles and values of men and women who have been proven to be wise by their results; and then the application of the accumulated knowledge to the peculiarity of one's situation.
Knowledge and its application with understanding: that is wisdom.
Why is it practical? Wisdom is known by its result.Oct 9 2012: when you make your choice single.then you gian wisdom
we human being are contradictory individal .we always consider too much when we make decisions .so it can impact our thought . when you make a quick decision .you will feel the wisdom of yourself ,
Gail .
Oct 9 2012: In THIS global culture, a wise person is made after wisdom is stripped from them in the earliest years.
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Wisdom is gained by knowing yourself completely. What do you think/emote/feel/believe and why. As we untangle the contradictions, mistakes, and untested assumptions of our belief structures, we become able to probe questions in greater depth than the sheeple. The deeper you can take a problem, the more you see the many parts that relate to one another (just as you can see more by flying over an area than you can see from the ground).
Shallow thinking is taught to us in our formal educations and by religion. When we allow others to think for us, we become shallow, and shallow people are never wise.Oct 9 2012: I believe wisdom is gained not from experience, but from reflection of experience. There is no wisdom in experiencing any given situation or circumstance, wisdom is a product of understanding through analysis and reflection of circumstance. The reflection would most likely include, the role of self, the role of others, and the role of environment in a given experience. Wisdom arrises from knowing and accepting the self, both "good" and "bad"aspects.
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Oct 9 2012: Come è innata saggezza? Da dove viene nuova saggezza viene?Oct 8 2012: Experience. It's the only way. To be able to anticipate outcomes at the level of wisdom, you have to have experienced a lot of outcomes and a variety of variables.
Too bad corporations and companies have forgotten this.


text:
Interpretive Handbook
80179 :
Jo 1 Antibodies, IgG, Serum
Clinical Information Discusses physiology, pathophysiology, and general clinical aspects, as they relate to a laboratory test
Jo 1 (histidyl tRNA synthetase) is a member of the amino acyl-tRNA synthetase family of enzymes found in all nucleated cells. Jo 1 antibodies in patients with polymyositis bind to conformational epitopes of the enzyme protein and inhibit its catalytic activity in vitro.(1)
Jo 1 antibodies are a marker for the disease polymyositis, and occur most commonly in myositis patients who also have interstitial lung disease. The antibodies occur in up to 50% of patients with interstitial pulmonary fibrosis and symmetrical polyarthritis.(2)
See Connective Tissue Disease Cascade (CTDC) in Special Instructions and Optimized Laboratory Testing for Connective Tissue Diseases in Primary Care: The Mayo Connective Tissue Diseases Cascade in Publications.
Useful For Suggests clinical disorders or settings where the test may be helpful
Evaluating patients with signs and symptoms compatible with a connective tissue disease, especially those patients with muscle pain and limb weakness, concomitant pulmonary signs and symptoms, Raynaud's phenomenon, and arthritis
Interpretation Provides information to assist in interpretation of the test results
A positive result for Jo 1 antibodies is consistent with the diagnosis of polymyositis and suggests an increased risk of pulmonary involvement with fibrosis in such patients.
Cautions Discusses conditions that may cause diagnostic confusion, including improper specimen collection and handling, inappropriate test selection, and interfering substances
Testing for antibodies to Jo 1 is not useful in patients with a negative test for antinuclear antibodies.
A negative test for Jo 1 antibodies does not exclude the diagnosis of polymyositis or dermatomyositis.
Reference Values Describes reference intervals and additional information for interpretation of test results. May include intervals based on age and sex when appropriate. Intervals are Mayo-derived, unless otherwise designated. If an interpretive report is provided, the reference value field will state this.
<1.0 U (negative)
> or =1.0 U (positive)
Reference values apply to all ages.
Clinical References Provides recommendations for further in-depth reading of a clinical nature
1. Targoff I: Autoantibodies in polymyositis. Rheum Dis Clin North Am 1992;18:455
2. Leff R, Sherman J, Plotz P: Inflammatory muscle diseases. In Clinical Immunology Principles and Practice, Second edition. Edited by R Rich, T Fleisher, W Shearer, B Kotzin, et al. St. Louis, Mosby-Year Book, 2001, Chapter 65, pp 65.1-65.8

subset: commoncrawl


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Main Content
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Step 1: Ingredients
Equipment: Microwave, bowl, slotted spoon, butter knife, wax paper, kitchen shears
Step 2: Make peanut butter sandwiches.
Step 3: Prepare candies
Step 4: Melt chocolate almond bark in microwave.
Optional: I added a tsp. of shortening to one-half package; this seems to make dipping a little easier.
Step 5: Dip sandwiches.
Spoon chocolate over the top until it is completely covered.
Tap slotted spoon on the side of the dish to shed extra chocolate.
Slide a spoon or knife across the bottom of the spoon and gently push the cookie onto waxed paper.
Step 6: Decorate.
Place the Hershey's kiss near the front of the cookie, and place 3-4 candy corn pieces on the back as feathers. Place a small piece of red candy just below the tip of the kiss.


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Saigon, located in Vietnam, once known as a city of great poverty after the Vietnam war, has increasingly become a place for U.S. tourists to visit more increasingly. Now in 2015, we have seen the growth of the housing market in Saigon reach an even greater level by becoming what we think will be a seller's market in the very short term.
Why? Because we look at leading economic indicators when we predict real estate growth in markets across the world, including Vietnam, China, the U.S., and other well-known markets. One of those leading indicators is new franchises and large retail chains deciding to plant their roots and make significant investments, like Mc Donald's recently did by opening up a store in Vietnam.
This is absolutely great news for home owners in Saigon, that own a house that are looking for a quick house sale, because if the Vietnam economy is booming, so will the influx of home buyers in the area. We saw this same phenomenon in San Antonio, TX many years ago when an economic boom occurred. You see, if a local economy soars, then companies will need to hire more employees, and guess what? Those employees will need a place to live, right? Well, that can only equate to an increase in home sales and a lack of inventory for Saigon/Vietnam residents.


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Yes, but it has to be on the Reds' terms.
Yes, but it has to be on the Reds' terms.
The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.
If he accepts a hometown discount it's a no brainer. If he won't right now I don't think the Reds would be inclined to offer 15 + million a year.
It's fantastic to hear him saying he wants to be a Red his whole career. I now have a man crush on Jay.
Unfortunately, I could see a 2017-2022 Bruce extension having more in common with the Vernon Wells or Alex Rios contracts than I do with the 2011-2017 Bruce contract. No need to take the plunge right now.
Go BLUE!!!
I think I'd wait a couple of years. He just signed a very generous deal not two years ago that won't expire for a few more years. It sets a bit of a bad precedent.
The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.
Too soon, unless he's willing to do so on very generous terms.
"Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini
I believe in 5 years the Votto contract may be considered the worst contract in baseball (vying with Pujols). So, no, I don't want to give him a contract like Votto.
I love me some Jay Bruce .... but hell no I wouldn't extend him right now. In another two or three years, sure, I would be open to talking extension. But with five years left? Not interested. Too many things can happen between now and 2017 that would radically change his market value.
Signing players a decade out into the future almost always bites the team in the ass before the contract is up.
The big difference to extending Bruce now for 5 more years is it only takes him to about age 35. If you wait another year or two to do so, and he has that monster season, an extension might start costing $20M per season by then.
If he'll sign another 5 at say $15M as suggested, it might be hard to pass that up.
I'd love love love to see Jay and Joe spend their whole careers here in Cincy
Most Vottomatic Player
I'm concerned that Bruce's hot streaks at the plate will become fewer and farther between after age 30, the range he's asking the Reds to extend his deal into. Not sure that Reds fans will want the hitter that lurks below the mean, between the torrid stretches, if that guy becomes Jay's new normal in his thirties.
Exactly what Steve said.
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Well the game comes out at the end of the month, so lets get this thread started.
It should be awesome.
Well the game comes out at the end of the month, so lets get this thread started.
It should be awesome.
Already have it reserved. I've played, beaten, and 1Ked every Assassin's Creed game thus far. I love them. Hopefully I'll have Resident Evil 6 wrapped up before this comes out, but I doubt it...
Went all in on the collectors edition. 30th just can't come fast enough.
Assassins Creed Brotherhood had the best multiplayer system ever made. Punishing to those trigger happy Call of Duty idiots and rewarding for actual stealth. I fell in love with the series then.
Ill be picking this one up on the first day.
Terrorist attack count against the Anything Goes Thread: 4
I cannot wait for this game. I have enjoyed the series but this new one just looks epic.
Love the whole series. This one looks to be the best yet
Avatar & Sig pic by: DisturbedShifty
Pre-ordered it.
Wish I had Xbox cause I'd roll with you guys. Hit me up on psn stache99.


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One conclusion that jumps from the Pew Research Center/USA Today national survey released Thursday is that the coalition that reelected President Obama last fall remains in step behind him — and is largely unified behind the key elements of his increasingly aggressive second-term agenda. But the poll also suggests that failure to generate more-rapid economic recovery could nonetheless strain the powerful coalition Obama has assembled.
Obama won reelection last fall behind strong performances among groups in what I've called the "coalition of the ascendant": minorities, young people, and college-educated white women. That allowed him to overcome cavernous deficits among blue-collar, older and rural whites.
At National Journal's request, Pew analyzed the results among those groups from their new national survey, which explored attitudes on an unusually wide range of issues. The results found that Obama's core groups express solid support for his central priorities, with very few exceptions.
Overall, the survey put Obama's approval rating at 51 percent — almost exactly replicating his share of the vote last November. For all of his key groups, his approval ratings today remain close to his vote shares against Republican Mitt Romney. The survey put his approval among African-Americans at 91 percent (compared to his vote of 93 percent in November), among Hispanics at 68 percent (compared to 71 percent in November), college-educated white women at 48 percent (compared to 46 percent), and adults ages 18 to 29 at 57 percent (compared to 60 percent). Considering that several percent of those in each group described themselves as undecided on Obama's performance, those numbers suggest almost no change from his support in the election.
The poll indicates that the issue agenda Obama is advancing could reinforce that support. On immigration, for instance, the survey found that adults divided exactly in half, with 49 percent saying the top priority of reform should be "creating a way for illegal immigrants already here to become citizens if they meet certain requirements" and 47 percent prioritizing "better border security and stronger enforcement of our immigration laws."
But among Obama's key groups, 62 percent of African-Americans, 79 percent of Hispanics, 65 percent of all nonwhites, 57 percent of college-educated women, and 60 percent of young adults all pick the pathway to citizenship as their top priority.
On the broad question of whether it is more important to protect the right of Americans to own guns or to control gun ownership, adults split about evenly too, with 46 percent emphasizing ownership and 50 percent limits. But 71 percent of African-Americans, 78 percent of Hispanics, 71 percent of all nonwhites, and 55 percent of college-educated white women prioritized gun control; young people lean narrowly in that direction.
Obama also draws majority support from his key groups on his specific gun-control proposals: banning high-capacity magazines and assault weapons and imposing background checks on sales at gun shows. (The one exception is that young people provide only plurality support for the magazine limits.) The college-educated white women, with whom Obama lost ground from 2008 to 2012, are especially enthusiastic; at least two-thirds support his position on each question.
Likewise, Obama's key groups all express majority support for emphasizing the development of alternative energy sources rather than fossil fuels (though African-Americans split more closely), and for imposing "stricter emission limits on power plants in order to address climate change." The poll found those ideas to be especially popular among young people, with about seven in 10 supporting the green position on each question.
Raising the minimum wage and insisting that any further fiscal deal include both tax increases and spending cuts likewise won support from preponderant majorities in Obama's coalition, the poll found. Over eight in 10 nonwhites back him on both questions.
Groups outside of Obama's coalition were usually less enthusiastic about these ideas. For instance, only about two in five noncollege white men backed either a ban on assault weapons or high-capacity magazines. Fully 71 percent of noncollege white men prioritize gun rights over gun control, and by narrow majorities so do the college-educated white men, working-class white women, and whites ages 50-64. About three-fifths of noncollege and middle-aged whites identified border security, rather than a pathway to citizenship, as their top priority for immigration reform.
Yet many of the ideas Obama is pushing also found substantial support among groups that resisted him in both 2008 and 2012. Solid majorities of noncollege and older whites, for instance, backed the minimum-wage increase. Even noncollege whites and college-educated white men would stress renewable energy over fossil-fuel development. The assault-weapons ban generated substantial majority support from the college-educated white men, noncollege white women, and older whites. Background checks on sales at gun shows won support from over three-fourths of every group analyzed, including noncollege white men.


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Hang tight!
Recipe by motherof5
"Warm and spicy, this will really wake up your tastebuds! The tofu takes on the wonderful flavor of the sauce. Serve with stir-fried vegetables. Bon Appetit!"
Hmm. None of these ingredients are on sale today.
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1 (16 ounce) package
firm tofu, cut into 6 slices
1/2 cup
chicken broth
1 tablespoon
2 tablespoons
soy sauce
1 tablespoon
oyster sauce
2 teaspoons
chili garlic sauce
2 tablespoons
vegetable oil
boneless pork loin chops, cut into bite sized pieces
1 tablespoon
minced fresh ginger
1 tablespoon
minced garlic
2 cups
cooked brown rice
1/3 cup
chopped green onions
1/3 cup
To make this go a little further, I used one pork tenderloin, cut into strips. The amount of sauce and seasoning is still plenty. Also, try serving this over some pan-fried noodles. It's excellent: Boil some Asian egg noodles to just tender. Then toss with oil, salt and black pepper and saute in a separate wok or skillet, adding a tiny bit of soy sauce if desired.
I love tofu and thought this had a very pleasant flavor. However there wasn't enough sauce for the rice and "something" was missing. I won't be making this again. Thanks, anyway!
56 Ratings
I only used 1 tbsp of soy sauce as I thought it would be too salty, and added a bunch of chopped, lightly steamed green beans in with the tofu. We really enjoyed it and it was very quick to prepare after work.
I loved this recipe. My husband made it and it's now my favorite dish! It was a perfect blend of ginger and spices. Awesome!
I love making this recipe. I usually add red pepper flakes for extra spice and a little sweet and sour sauce to the mix as the oyster sauce can be over powering. I also usually add veggies such as sweet peppers or broccoli. Omit pork and use veg. stock for a vegitarian dish. Tastes great garnished with fresh corriander.
Very good sauce for stir fry. I skipped the pork, added broccoli, doubled the sauce as others recommended. Next time I would reduce soy sauce as it could use a little less salt. Thanks! update: I have used this sauce a number of times, doubling all ingredients but the soy sauce. I also used shrimp instead of the pork, which came out wonderfully.
I'm trying to cut back on my meat consumption so I substituted broccoli, red pepper and mushrooms for the pork. Other than that I followed this as written. I really liked the sauce portion of this. Just enough flavor without being heavy.
I liked this a lot and will make again. I backed off on chili paste because my kids won't eat anything with too much heat. If you do too you'll still get great results because the flavor is simply excellent. Don't omit the cashews and onions; the crunch they add is great.
* Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet.
Tofu with Pork and Cashews
Serving Size: 1/4 of a recipe
Servings Per Recipe: 4
Amount Per Serving
Calories: 461
Calories from Fat: 213
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Russell Watson (born 23 November 1966) is an English tenor who has released singles and albums of both operatic-style and pop songs. The self-styled "People's Tenor" had been singing since he was a child, and became known after performing at a working men's club. He came to attention in 1999 when he sang the National anthem at the Rugby League Challenge Cup Final at Wembley Stadium, "Barcelona" at the last match of the Premiership season between Manchester United and Tottenham Hotspur at Old Trafford and a full set of songs at the final of the UEFA Champions League in Barcelona between Manchester United and Bayern Munich. Watson's debut album entitled The Voice was released in May 2001; four others followed. However, an album planned for November 2006 was delayed due to the removal of a benign pituitary tumour. This album, entitled That's Life, was eventually released on 5 March 2007. On 24 October 2007, it was discovered that there had been a regrowth of his pituitary tumour and bleeding into his brain. He underwent emergency surgery and was discharged from hospital on 31 October. He underwent an extensive rehabilitation programme, including radiotherapy. His sixth studio album, Outside In, was released on 26 November 2007.
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I'm quite enjoying my bottle of Bitter and Twisted
What more do you want in a beer??
Having recently returned from Prague I have to say that the [i'real[/i] Czech Pilsner Urquell (i.e. draft) and the original Budweiser (Budvar) are my new favorites.
Quote from: scamandrius on July 23, 2015, 04:25:24 PMNew thread topic. Rate the sexual attractiveness of members of OC.net on a scale of 1-10.Mor Ephrem: 11/10
New thread topic. Rate the sexual attractiveness of members of OC.net on a scale of 1-10.
Okay, who put Budweiser?! Gad.
You should come over and have a Miller Highlife. Now that's the Champagne of Beers!
Only if it is "bottled".
Piss tastes better in a bottle as opposed to a can? Nope, still piss.
BUD ICE, Do 40 Ounces Count?
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Maybe you go to Greekfest for the dancing or maybe it's for the music, but what about the food?
Greekfest features a slew of traditional Greek food from stuffed grape leaves to kabobs, but this year The News-Sentinel decided to catch up with the ladies cooking up the thousands of servings of baklava and other desserts at Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church.
Deanna Gountras, chairperson for Greekfest this year, said the women who volunteer at the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church as well as the Daughters of Penelope begin baking in mid-April to ensure they have enough time and enough desserts.
"It takes quite a bit of time. First of all we start by getting all of our ingredients together then we make a schedule. We start making baklava; we make little ones and big ones then we move on to our cookies," she said.
Once all the food prep is done, the large group of ladies then begin packaging the nearly 12,000 individual pieces of baklava in addition to the other variations of cookies.
The festival spawned from humble beginnings at the church's old location off South Anthony Boulevard then moved to Northcrest Shopping Center until its present location at Headwaters Park.
Eva Collis, a longtime church member and volunteer, has been involved in Greekfest since the first year it began.
"The popularity of Greekfest has just boomeranged," she said.
From family games to dancing children, Collis said Greekfest offers a unique look into Greek culture.
After moving to the United States from western Greece at the age of 9, Eva moved to Fort Wayne after she married her husband. She was surprised by the close Greek community.
"For a long time we were the only ones here from our part of Greece and now there are younger couples getting involved," Collis said. "Our church and culture is a very important part of our lives."
Make your own baklava
Ingredients for baklava:
1 lb of phyllo
1 lb of chopped or coarsely ground walnuts
1/2 cup of granulated sugar
2 tsp of cinnamon
1 tsp of grated orange rind
1 lb of melted butter (more or less depending on personal taste and texture)
Ingredients for syrup:
3 cups sugar
1 1/2 cup water
Juice from half a lemon
Lemon rind
Orange rind
One cinnamon stick
3 whole cloves
1 cup honey
Directions for making the Baklava:
Mix walnuts, granulated sugar, cinnamon and orange peel together. Butter a 9x13 pan with pastry brush.
Layer 8 to 10 sheets of phyllo on the bottom of the pan and be sure to butter between each layer.
When you are layering the bottom of the pan, have extra phyllo overlapping the side pan (similar to when you're making a pie). This will ensure the walnut mixture will not leak out of the sides.
Then begin alternating layers of butter, walnut mixture and phyllo until the layers nearly fill the shallow pan.
When you finish with the walnut mixture, tuck the overlapping sheets on top of the walnuts just like you would a pie.
Then top the layers with 8 to 10 layers of phyllo, alternating between melted butter and phyllo.
Once you have finished with your final layers of phyllo, cut the baklava.
When you cut the baklava, cut it halfway through the dessert to make sure syrup that you will add later gets on the top and bottoms layers without settling at the bottom of the pan.
For a traditional Greek cut make sure to cut the baklava in a straight line down the longest part of the pan then cut diagonally across the more narrow length of the pan.
Then butter the cut baklava generously.
Before you bake it, sprinkle water on top of it to make sure the phyllo doesn't flake.
Bake at 350 degrees for about an hour or until it turns golden brown
Once the baklava is cooking, then start making the syrup.
Directions for making syrup:
Combine all ingredients except for honey and bring to a boil for 10 minutes or until sugar is dissolved.
Then slowly add the honey, stir and simmer for five minutes.
Then let the syrup cool
Pour syrup along cutlines and allow the syrup to absorb then reapply as needed.
This recipe is adapted from the traditional bulk recipe Greekfest volunteers use. If you would like this recipe or to see similar traditional Greek recipes make sure to check out the cookbooks available at Greekfest for $25.


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Go for Zucker! (Alles auf Zucker!)
Drama, Comedy
Down on his luck, conniving pool shark Jaeckie Zucker must make up with his estranged Orthodox Jewish brother Samuel in order to meet the terms of his mother's inheritance - the only thing that could save him from jail, ruin and divorce. But as Samuel and his entire clan move into Jaeckie's chaotic household, a clash of civilizations is inevitable, and Jaeckie's going to need every trick he can think of to make things go smoothly.
Cast: Steffen Groth, Hannelore Elsner, Golda Tencer, Udo Samel, Henry Hübchen, Henry Hübchen
Produced by: Barbara Buhl
Directed by: Dani Levy
Written by: Dani Levy, Holger Franke
Running time: 1hr 35min
Opens: Jan 20, 2006 NY
|Theaters for Today
Pick a day
on this day.


text:
LUBBOCK, Texas —Southwestern freshmen Molly Schimp and Rayvonne Brown put their stamp on Southwestern track and field's history by qualifying for the NJCAA Indoor Track and Field National Championsips.
And they both helped cement their legacies by competing well at the meet here on Friday and Saturday.
Schimp nearly found herself on the awards podium at the end of the day Saturday, after recording a big improvement in the high jump.
"Molly's was exciting," head coach Bill Huntington said. "She jumped on Saturday. She was toward the tail end because her best height was just the qualifying height. She hadn't gone above that."
With opening height set at just 1.51 meters, or just above 4 feet, 11 inches, Schimp missed her first attempt but cleared on her second attempt.
At the second height of 1.56 meters, or just above 5-01, Schimp did the same — missing on her first attempt but clearing the second.
"Then we're starting to get excited, because the field has dropped out," Huntington said. "There were actually people who didn't even make opening height."
After the bar moved up to 1.61 meters, or 5-03.25, Schimp just barely missed on her first two attempts, clipping the bar with her calves.
Schimp had not cleared 5-03 yet this season, but on her third attempt cleared the bar.
Schimp was among just 14 competitors left in the competition, as the bar moved up to 1.66 meters, or close to 5-05.25.
"On her first attempt, just grazed it a little with her calf," Huntington said. "Then her second attempt, same thing. It was bobbling. It almost stayed on. And her third attempt, she kind of slipped a little bit on her steps and blew through the bar.
"But, only four people made that height. We really thought she had a chance to be on the podium."
With it coming down to misses to determine placings, Schimp ended up 14th, as several jumpers passed on the opening height and had fewer misses.
"They didn't jump any higher than she did, but they had fewer misses," Huntington said. "Her misses put her 14th, but realistically, only four people beat her. She was so close to the podium. Would have been so exciting to get her up there."
Brown competed in the 600 meter prelims on Friday.
He came into the meet seeded 26th, but finished 24th with his second best time of the season, improving on his seeding.
"His race was at 6:00 that night, so the way the facility is set up, he had to warm up outside, and it was starting to get a little chilly," Huntington said. "So I didn't think he was quite warmed up as well as I would have liked him to have been."
But, Brown still got out well in the race, putting himself in a position to be successful.
"He went out, his first 250 he was really flying," Huntington said. "I thought he was on pace to break his own PR, which is also the school record. But he really got tight the last 60 meters. I don't know if that was he just wasn't warmed up enough or what. But still, it was an incredible performance."
Brown ran a time of 1:25.98, for his second fastest time of the season.
"Running his second best time and competing at the national championships, I thought he did a tremendous job representing Southwestern," Huntington said. "Like Ray said, it was really important for him to go down and represent Southwestern and his teammates."
Southwestern returns to action by kicking off the outdoor season March 23 at the Viking Invitational in Des Moines.
NJCAA Indoor Track & Field National Championships
High jump — 1. Ashley Johnson, South Plains, 5-05.25; 14. Molly Schimp, Southwestern, 5-03.25.
600 meters — 1. Vernon Norwood, South Plains, 1:17.04; 24. Rayvonne Brown, Southwestern, 1:25.98.


text:
Nitrogen Network
- International Nitrogen Initiative
- Optimizing Nitrogen use in food and energy production & minimizing the consequent harm to humans and the environment.
- Nitrogen Management Project Protocol
- The Climate Action Reserve (Reserve) has developed an agriculture sector Nitrogen Management Project Protocol (NMPP) to provide guidance on how to quantify, monitor, and verify greenhouse gas emission reductions from improving nitrogen use efficiency in crop production. The protocol is now available for public review and comment and it is to be considered by the Reserve Board in June 2012.
- Reactive nitrogen in the US: An analysis of inputs, flows, consequences and management options
- US EPA science advisory board report
- European Nitrogen Assessment
- Nitrogen News
- A resource for journalists aimed at improving public understanding of nitrogen-related issues.


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It's cool meeting you again. :) We are here for popular actor YOO SEUNG HO, nicknamed the "nation's younger brother". Everyone wants to be with him. Let's share news about him by joining this fan club. ♥
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Batman: Arkham Knight guide
Our guide to Rocksteady's final Batman game.
Batman: Arkham Knight Riddle solutions
How to track down and solve every Riddle.
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Meetings and Conventions in Batam
Home » Meetings and Conventions in Batam » Find Travel » PT. Nusa Jaya Indofast
PT. Nusa Jaya Indofast
Established since 1995, P.T NUSA JAYA INDOFAST TOURS & TRAVEL stationed their head office in Batam island – Indonesia's most rapidly growing bonded economic zone. Located in the northwestern part of Riau Archipelago, batam is just 40 minutes by air-conditioned ferry rides from bustling Singapore.
PT NUSA JAYA INDOFASTPT NUSA JAYA INDOFAST field of business are deal in INBOUND & OUTBOUND of Tour Package, Golf Package, Incentive Seminar Package, Transportation Sevice, and Domestic Airline Sole Agent its have established close link with many hotels and resort in Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, and others city in Asia. Our special top range hotels in Batam such as BATAM NOVOTEL HOTEL, GOOD WAY HOTEL, BATAM ROYAL, HOTEL PLANET HOLIDAY HOTEL, NONGSA POINT MARINA RESORT, TURI BEACH RESORT, HARRIS RESORT, HOLIDAY INN RESORT and many others, allow us to give you value for money on the full range of tour that we provide. Our bus and coach from 24 to 44 sealers, totally have more than 70 units are in good condition. Our vehicle are use for inbound city tour, land transfer, and also lease for company anniversary party. Our Restaurant GOLDEN PRAWN 933/555, located at Bengkong Laut, capacity can be content 4000 guest.
|Komp. Indofast Blok D No.39-40 Baloi Satpam Jl. Gajah Mada - Batam
|+62 778 457 168
|+62 778 451 513


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September 05, 2015, 12:17:07 PM
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Some Panorama advice (needed)
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Topic: Some Panorama advice (needed) (Read 7008 times)
Lisa Nikodym
Sr. Member
Posts: 1706
Some Panorama advice (needed)
April 28, 2005, 04:53:00 PM »
I've only done a handful of panos (also with a D70 with kit lens ), so I'm no expert yet and don't feel qualified to answer your first two questions, except to say that I managed the five-shot pano below at the 18mm end of the kit lens:
click here
I didn't notice distortion being a problem. The only problem was that, because I wasn't using a calibrated panorama head, there was some misalignment ("ghosting") of parts of the grassy areas in the foreground which I had to fix with some cloning.
On the subject of your third question: If you don't use a tripod, your camera motions from frame to frame will be *much* less well-controlled. You'll have some up-and-down motion between frames that will mean your cropped image will be smaller than it otherwise would have been. After doing a couple each way, I'm now a big fan of tripods for panos.
(formerly nniko)
Posts: 11
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #1 on:
April 29, 2005, 02:44:56 AM »
OK, thanks guys.
BTW - Do you suggest doing the stitching in photoshop or use a 3rd party application ?
Jr. Member
Posts: 84
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #2 on:
April 29, 2005, 12:22:16 PM »
For fun, see the free program
The results are fast and amazingly good.
I do think PanoTools with PTAssembler/PTMac are the way to go, for maximum flexibility and highest quality results.
Dan Dill
Sr. Member
Posts: 2030
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #3 on:
April 30, 2005, 09:54:16 AM »
I'm a believer in the principle of KISS to the extent consistent with the quality I want. I don't want foreground ghosting due to parallax from not using a tripod and calibrated panorama head. I don't want the inevitable stitch misalignments you get with overly simple software and that WILL be visible in large prints. I like to think that I DO know what I'm doing after carefully testing so much stitching software and now doing thousands of stitch shots with the one stitching program (not very simple) that I've tried that actually works perfectly and consistently. Your mileage may vary according to your standards of quality and how much pano shooting you actually do and what kinds of subject matter and how carefully you look at your results and at what level of magnification.
Lisa Nikodym
Sr. Member
Posts: 1706
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #4 on:
April 30, 2005, 05:17:08 PM »
Some folks may be OK with ultra simple free programs that limit you to post card prints or emailing a picture to a friend, others may want to go a bit better than that, and others may want perfect prints right to the limits of what the file can support.
Just for reference, the panorama of mine that I have a link to above was stitched with Panorama Factory, and I have a 16"x32" print of it (bigger than a post card!) on my wall. The only stitching problems I found were "ghosting" in the foreground areas, but that's due to parallax since I wasn't using a panorama head at the time. If there were misalignments anywhere else, I think I would have seen them in the big print. On the other hand, it's a single example; there are probably other examples that PF would fail on where PTAssembler won't.
(formerly nniko)
Lisa Nikodym
Sr. Member
Posts: 1706
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #5 on:
May 01, 2005, 01:57:55 PM »
An additional thought that occurred to me:
The issue of distortion at wide angle isn't as bad as you would think, since some (many? most?) stitching programs correct for barrel distortion, light fall-off, etc. as part of the stitching, after you tell it what kind of camera you're using and it automatically detects the focal length. (At least that's how Panorama Factory works, and I imagine many others do too.)
(formerly nniko)
Sr. Member
Posts: 2030
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #6 on:
May 01, 2005, 04:19:43 PM »
As for distortion and automatic correction; the problem is that the distortion is not regular and predictable enough by the program math to match the particular charactaristics of the lens accurately enough. Even if you specify several control points accurately manually, you still get misses because of this lens irregularity. The wider the lens the more problems you have even with single pictures and these problems get a bit magnified with stitches. At any rate, I try to avoid very short focal lengths for stitching (or even otherwise if there's alternatives). Most stitch programs support wide angle lenses in some way or another, but I've never been able to get the results anywhere near as good as at 50mm or longer. Even my Tamron zoom at 28mm (which is not very wide for 1.6 factor camera) doesn't do well enough. I'm better off using a longer focal length and shooting vertically and using more frames for a given final FOV. I love very wide scenes, but not very wide lens quality. That's why I'm such a stitching fanatic.
I would much welcome any feedback from folks with perhaps more experience with all this (experience rather than just ideas). Maybe I could do better than I've been able to do so far.
Nudge, nudge ;-)
I did go to the site and looked and read. I just don't have the energy to try one more auto-everything stitching program, especially PC, which has basically become a non-platform for me any more. Having now got a huge amount of experience with the challenge of finding good matching control points manually based on very careful visual pattern matching, I simply don't believe any more that any algorithm can do as well. Now if someone thoroughly tests this program and makes a convincing case that this can do very good stitches with fairly challenging input, I could maybe be nudged a bit more.
Sr. Member
Posts: 2030
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #7 on:
May 01, 2005, 06:48:26 PM »
may, hopefully, find their way into other tools.
Well, something of the sort has found its way into Stitcher 4.0 quite some time ago, at a price of $400 for a package that I did not think worth buying. The results were good when it worked, but all too often it didn't work for me; a message that Stitcher can't do an automatic stitch, do you want it to do a "forced stitch"? This was generally not good, and a lot of times a forced stitch was also not possible, and then the suggested method is manual alignment, with no correction for distortion, etc. Besides the problem of these unsalvageable failures, the required huge overlap is also a nuisance that fills CF cards too fast. I wonder how this new thing will really work; you can't tell anything from the picture on the web. The program is obviously still a pretty early beta, with no commercial distribution.
PTMac has some optional auto features that don't work for me. Fortunately, you can get pretty fast at manual control points.
Sr. Member
Posts: 2030
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #8 on:
May 04, 2005, 03:33:41 PM »
An article wouldn't challenge my web space, but it would challenge my time, and then whatever I could write would be for my work flow, my particular aims with pano projects, and Mac only. Then after all that, there's the countless follow-up questions. The good news is that PTMac is very well supported with personal tech support. Kevin (the programmer) answers personal emails and also answers questions on his forum quite regularly and there's senior beta testers that also often have good answers. Unfortunately, getting started is a bit difficult, since there's no real manual. There's a sort of OK help section that's not complete enough, though. It took me an incredible amount of time to get familiar enough with PTMac to get efficient (with the tiny percentage of what the program can do that I care about) and an equally lot of time and experimental designs of more and more efficient carbon fiber panorama heads, again to do exactly what I want to do, and now only for the D2X. At least now PTMac really does work for exactly what I wanted all along, though it took a year of pestering Kevin to implement a few things that are absolutely crucial for me. I wish I had an easy answer, but I'm afraid there ain't one.
Posts: 11
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #9 on:
April 28, 2005, 04:02:49 PM »
I've been a photographer (as a hobby) for a couple of years now, but I've never actualy did any panorama, Following the "Adventures with Panoramas" article I decided I've left this out for too long, so I'm going out on a shoot tomorow just as a trial to test the theory in the field (to grasp the basics and draw conclusions)- but I have some questions first.
first - focal length - I'm in a transitional phase where I'm moving from Minolta to Nikon (yes.. yes.. shame on me), So right now all I have is my D70 and the kit lens.
What FC should I use ? 50mm should give less distortion then 17 but then 17 is wider... (or maybe 70mm?) I'm going to shoot mostly *distant* landscape. Some feedback (pro/cons) would be welcomed.
second - is cropping of the top/bottom parts of the photo (I'm going to shoot vertically) recommended to keep distortion to a minimum ? (is this something I need to keep in mind when I shoot ?)
third - the article mentioned the writter didnt like tripods - I'd like to hear from other panorama-expirienced photographer if this is your recommended aproach as well ? (as a pro and also as an advice to a novice)
I hope I'm not totaly without a clue with these questions.
thanks in advance
Lin Evans
Sr. Member
Posts: 269
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #10 on:
April 28, 2005, 06:41:15 PM »
first - focal length - I'm in a transitional phase where I'm moving from Minolta to Nikon (yes.. yes.. shame on me), So right now all I have is my D70 and the kit lens.
What FC should I use ? 50mm should give less distortion then 17 but then 17 is wider... (or maybe 70mm?) I'm going to shoot mostly *distant* landscape. Some feedback (pro/cons) would be welcomed.
second - is cropping of the top/bottom parts of the photo (I'm going to shoot vertically) recommended to keep distortion to a minimum ? (is this something I need to keep in mind when I shoot ?)
third - the article mentioned the writter didnt like tripods - I'd like to hear from other panorama-expirienced photographer if this is your recommended aproach as well ? (as a pro and also as an advice to a novice)
I hope I'm not totaly without a clue with these questions.
thanks in advance
I agree with Lisa - use a tripod! If you shoot vertically you will have much better control with a tripod because it takes many more frames with the loss in overlap to get a decent wide image.
As for the focal length, the 17mm will actually look like a 26mm (25.5) with your D70. This effectively uses less of the distortion producing part of your lens (outer periphery) since the circle of definition is cropped from the more central part.
For really distant landscapes you probably will do better with a 50mm or 70mm simply because a wide angle is not going to be quite as sharp - just the nature of the beast. The wide angle would be preferred "if" you are planning a hyperfocal (focus on closeup and infinity and everything in between) type shot such as a meadow of wildflowers with a mountain range in the background. Primarily this is because the wide angle will focus much closer than the 50mm or any telephoto (70mm, etc.).
For most landscapes you won't need a spherical pano head unless you stitch more than one row. By shooting in the portrait orientation you probably won't need to worry much about needing more than one row to cover the desired field of view, but if you do find you are shooting tall structures which take more than one overlapping row, you will want to consider a spherical pano head.
Unless there are objects in close proximity to the lens in the frame, rotating on the entrance pupil (sometimes called nodal point) isn't a rigid necessity, but my suggestion is to find the proper rotation point and use a pano head which will accommodate adjustment to allow rotation at this point because it will greatly ease the sitiching issues. There are some inexpensive pano heads available which will support a D70 and if you plan on doing much of this you probably should look into one.
Best regards,
Sr. Member
Posts: 2030
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #11 on:
April 29, 2005, 04:43:54 AM »
I spend a few hours a day shooting even when I'm home (close to Joshua Tree NP) and I'm mostly not home, but out shooting in other areas. I do almost nothing but panorama stitch shooting and yes, I agree about advantages of tripod and panorama head. You can get by without the panorama head if you only shoot distant subjects with no close foregrounds.
As for software, I've tried about everything there is for Mac and PC and I've found that only PTMac gives absolutely perfect results absolutely consistently with practically all lenses. I haven't tested PTAssembler for a while and I assume it's now also good. Both programs have a substantial learning curve, but if you're serious about pro quality stitched images it's worth it, and once you've mastered the process (calibrated panorama head and the right software) it all becomes quite fast and efficient. Once you learn the principles of it all and you understand how a panorama head works you can design something lighter and more stable for you particular camera. This is especially easy if you limit yourself to single layer. My latest version (#5) weighs about 5 oz., is rock solid stable, and accomodates my Nikon 12-24mm, Tamron 28-75mm (both at all focal lengths) and Sigma 105mm. First learn what's what with the Panosaurus. It's cheap enough as a learning tool, though too cumbersome and unstable as a serious production tool.
I would not recommend ultrawide lenses for stitching. For your camera that would be something on the order of 12 to 17mm focal length. The distortion of all such lenses compromises panorama stitch quality and there's usually also blend problems because these extremely wide lenses generally have substantial differences between the left and right sides.
Paulo Bizarro
Sr. Member
Posts: 2322
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #12 on:
April 30, 2005, 06:55:27 AM »
I do some panoramas now and then just for fun, nothing serious. I use the panorama assist mode on my Powershot Pro1, very useful and intuitive.
Later, I use Photo Stitch, the software that came with the camera. I am a believer of the KISS principle, and the software really works great.
I have done panoramas both with and without a tripod; as long as you know what you are doing, and of course depending on the light levels, it is not such a big issue. More important is to understand that light levels should not change dramatically along the panorama. For instance, it works better with distant and front-lit subjects. Otherwise, you end up with blue skies in one end, and whitened skies on the opposite end.
Lisa Nikodym
Sr. Member
Posts: 1706
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #13 on:
April 30, 2005, 11:06:42 AM »
Regarding stitching software: I found that Photoshop's stitching capabilities worked pretty poorly, often failing on even simple stitching cases. I tried PTAssembler (the complicated one) and a couple of more user-friendly ones (the ones that didger finds don't work as well). Of them, I found PTAssembler to have a large learning curve, which I haven't gotten around to spending the time to do yet; in the meantime, I found that Panorama Factory is incredibly quick and easy to use (and pretty cheap) and usually gets it close enough to right for my purposes, so I've been lazy so far and been using PF.
(formerly nniko)
Sr. Member
Posts: 2030
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #14 on:
April 30, 2005, 02:54:15 PM »
Hey, Lisa, great "center of the road" distillation. Some folks may be OK with ultra simple free programs that limit you to post card prints or emailing a picture to a friend, others may want to go a bit better than that, and others may want perfect prints right to the limits of what the file can support. The last requires a learning curve and careful manual selection of control points or the big expense and imperfect reliability of Stitcher 4.0 (and the huge overlaps this program requires and still a considerable learning curve).
As for KISS, I'm reminded of what Einstein said about KISS related to scientific theories: Keep it as simple as possible, but no simpler. Extremely simple and very high quality stitching just ain't possible. Pick your own level of comfort, as represented by the various levels of Pbizarro, Lisa, and myself. Above all, have fun.
Sr. Member
Posts: 2030
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #15 on:
April 30, 2005, 09:12:22 PM »
I got some acceptable results with most of the programs I tried (excluding Photostitch and Photomerge). I think with extremely careful level shooting with any really good 50mm or longer lens you could get good results with a lot of these programs. However, if your shooting isn't level, so that there's left-right tilt of the camera, or if you're using wide angle lenses the stitching won't be right without manually specifying control points. In any case, I generally didn't have much luck with anything except PTMac and Stitcher 4.0 most of the time if the overlaps were big enough. The way I shoot now, I'd never get good results without manually selecting control points because I don't make any attempt to level each shot. I don't even use a bubble level at all; just get each shot in the series so it looks about right. If you specify control points accurately, you get perfect stitches since the program stretches and squeezes the images so that everything lines up regardless of distortions from the lens or from camera tilts in any direction. It's very liberating in the field not to have to be so extremely precise about camera leveling and I've gotten very fast at determining control points. The learning curve, however, would not be attractive to someone just doing an occasional pano stitch. For me it's my main thing now and it needs to be 100% reliable and it needs to be no hassle whatsoever in the field.
If you want to test your methodology effectively without looking at images super carefully at 100% view along the stitch line, the best way is a scene with several power or phone lines at various angles in the sky and with a pile of cut wood at random angles in the foreground. You can see mismatches very easily. For stuff like sand and grass you might miss pretty major mismatches altogether without looking very carefully, especially if the program blends along stitch lines pretty well. No blend can disguise mismatched wires in the sky or mismatched cut wood edges. That sort of subject matter provides the moment of truth.
Jr. Member
Posts: 84
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #16 on:
May 01, 2005, 02:38:05 PM »
Nudge, nudge ;-)
Dan Dill
Jr. Member
Posts: 84
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #17 on:
May 01, 2005, 06:36:14 PM »
Nudge, nudge ;-)
Having now got a huge amount of experience with the challenge of finding good matching control points manually based on very careful visual pattern matching, I simply don't believe any more that any algorithm can do as well. Now if someone thoroughly tests this program and makes a convincing case that this can do very good stitches with fairly challenging input, I could maybe be nudged a bit more.
I am of the same mind, that carefully assigning control points manually, etc., leads to the best results. What caught my interest about AutoStitcher is that it seems to be a proof of concept that very high quality result can be gotten "automagically" and so that its authors have made some significant algorithmic advances that may, hopefully, find their way into other tools.
Dan Dill
Sr. Member
Posts: 369
Some Panorama advice (needed)
Reply #18 on:
May 04, 2005, 02:12:10 PM »
I just got back prints from using Autostitch. The prints are 6.5" x 29". The shots were from slides scanned at 2800 pdi. They were shot with a 24mm lens on a tripod without a pano head. I just couldn't get the image to come out right using PTGui, so I was surprised that Autostitch actually churned out a better image.
So far I've found that it works for some and not for other images. Surprisingly, on some images were I've used a pano head Autostitch has failed.
didger, I would be interested in reading an article about how you use your stitching program. Many of the articles that I've read are way to technical, and think you could do a good job at writing one and explaining it to users who don't want to bury their heads into articles on the internet for days and days of research just to figure stitching out. If you did something like this and Michael didn't want to publish it, I'd happily put it up on one of my sites, since you said you were running out of room on yours.
Bryan Hansel
Paddlinglight.com - Lightweight canoe and kayak travel
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Dear fans,
Thanks for your messages. I appreciate very much that you follow my games. I am grateful for all the support and kind messages you left for me.
Be sure that I am reading all your messages regularly and they motivate me to prove my self even more.
Yesterday it was really tough against Amelie, especially as she was supported by 15000 very noisy French supporters but that gave me extra motivation and I was determined to win against this double challenge. This victory means a lot to me and I will do my best to win today also.
I will try to keep you updated.


text:
If you felt pain in your chest, you wouldn't ignore
it—right? But if you felt pain in your legs, you
might put off asking your doctor about it. That
could be a serious mistake, because leg pain isn't always
due to muscle strain. It could be due to peripheral arterial
disease (PAD).
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lack of blood flow for periods of time can
"Most patients describe the discomfort as a tightness,
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steps to avoid heart attack or stroke, as they may also
have blockages in the arteries to their heart or brain," says
Dr. Fishman.
"The bottom line is, any severe leg pain shouldn't be
ignored," says Dr. Blattman.


text:
I'm usually pretty unimpressed with The Simpsons . As you can tell from the last episode , I, like show's writers, am just waiting for the inevitable conclusion to this long-running series. But occ More »
"A Tree Grows in Springfield" is a perfectly serviceable episode of The Simpsons . The premise, at least in the first act, is the kind of overly-topical spoofing that can quickly get tiresome, but it More »
The Simpsons "A Tree Grows in Springfield" season 24 episode 6 airs Sunday Nov 25 2012 (8:00-8:30 PM ET/PT) on FOX. Episode Synopsis: The Simpsons Season 24 Episode 5 "Penny-Wiseguys" – Lisa tries t More »


text:
On my Facebook page it tells me I have had 11 shares. There is a link to view all shares. I click on this link and I only see 2 shares. Why am I seeing only 2 out of 11 shares?
Take the 2-minute tour ×
Web Applications Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for power users of web applications. It's 100% free, no registration required.
You can only view the shares that you have access to - that is, shares by your friends, or shares which are public.
I believe in testing, page admins could see all of the shares of their content, but this has been locked down.


text:
Day 1 El Calafate
Upon arrival at El Calafate airport you are met and transferred to the hotel where your local guide will give you your tour information. Lago Argentina, discovered in 1873, is the southernmost of the four water sheets produced by the Pleistocene Glaciation. With its fjords and fingers it covers 935 sq miles, and is considered one of the most breathtaking lakes in the world. The Perito Moreno Glacier is an imposing river of ice of 1,7 miles wide by 180 ft high, which descends from the continental ice field to the Canal de los Tempanos. "Los Glaciares" National park, the most renowned in Argentina, was created in 1973 to preserve this vast glacier area, where we can also find the Upsala Glacier and the incredible Onelli Bay.
Days 2-3 El Calafate (2B)
In the early morning we will go to Los Glaciers National Park by a local guide. Today's excursion will be shared with non G Adventures travellers. You will skirt the main body of Argentino Lake and we will go to Brazo Rico. Once in the park you will go on the "Curva de los Suspiros", where you will get out the vehicle to have a first view of Perito Moreno Glacier. Later, you will stop at the Bajo Las Sombras Pier so that you can get near the glacier's southern wall. Next you will go to the front catwalks of the glacier, and we will watch it from different balconies and enjoy our free time to appreciate its various detachments, before returning to El Calafate. Opt to take a boat up to the front of the glacier. Day 3 day is free for optional activities, including: a full-day excursion to Upsala & Onelli glaciers or cruise of beautiful Argentino Lake.
Day 4 El Calafate (1B)
Check out and transfer to the airport for your departing flight.


text:
ETSU women's golf set to open spring sked in California
Requires Adobe Flash
Sunday, February 13, 2011
JOHNSON CITY, Tenn. (Feb. 13, 2011)
a 2009-10 season that resulted in the program's highest national ranking and its first-ever, at-large bid to the NCAA regionals, the ETSU women's golf team will begin its quest for another trip to the NCAA postseason this week at the 2011 Northrop Gruman Regional Challenge, hosted by Ohio State University at the Palos Verdes Golf Club in Palos Verdes, Calif.
The tournament will begin Monday and conclude with third round action on Wednesday. Live scoring from the 5,912-year, Par 71 course will be available at www.golfstat.com.
The Buccaneers are wasting little time taking on a challenge this spring, as the field for the Northrop Gruman event will feature No. 1 UCLA and No. 3 USC. Those two schools - along with teams such as Arizona State, Ohio State, Michigan State, Pepperdine, Wake Forest, Louisville and Florida - make this one of the strongest fields ETSU has ever faced.
With the departure of graduated seniors and longtime contributors such as
Laura Jansone
(Jurmala, Latvia),
Sinead O'Sullivan
(Galway, Ireland) and
Kennie Leigh Eisenhower
(Newport), head coach
Stefanie Shelton
will be relying on a different cast of characters this year - including four new faces on a six-player roster.
"Each of the girls on this team has experience winning at certain levels, whether on the amateur scene or in college golf," Shelton said. "We expect to win here at ETSU this year - and achieve new levels of success, such as taking the entire team to Nationals. It is a new batch of talent, but a great mix that can reach even higher goals."
Despite the new faces, there is talent coming back to Johnson City. Senior
Nina Muehl
(Vienna, Austria) returns after a strong finish a year ago, when she qualified for the NCAA Championships as an individual after finishing fourth at the NCAA regionals. Muehl, whose program record 8-under-par 64 in the first round of the regionals made national headlines, will be joined by highly-skilled and talented junior
Mayte Vizcarrondo
(Cadiz, Spain) as the team's only two returning players.
In the fall of 2010, Muehl finished second on the team in stroke average at 76.0 and enjoyed two Top 20 individual finishes. Meanwhile, Vizcarrondo was third on the team in stroke average at 78.0, and also finished in the Top 20 on two different occasions.
As for the newcomers to the squad, they include junior college transfers
Pearl Asaka Sim
(Santa Barbara, Calif.) and
Lauren Smith
(Cramlington, England), along with true freshmen
Larissa Steinfeldt
(Eschweiler, Germany) and
Sian Evans
(Gillingham, England).
In the fall, Evans was the most impressive player on the team. She led the squad with a 74.5 stroke average and posted three Top 20 finishes, including a third place showing at the Lady Paladin Invitational - which she led at the conclusion of the second round. Meanwhile, Steinfeldt finished four on the team in stroke average.
"With four new ladies on team this year, I look to Nina and Mayte for leadership," Shelton said. "They have been a part of our most successful teams, and can use that experience and those expectations to lead us even farther."
The Bucs will play a spring schedule which includes five tournaments prior to the Atlantic Sun Conference Championships, which will be played April 11-13 in Deland, Fla.
For more on ETSU women's golf throughout the season, visit ETSUBucs.com and click on the women's golf link
Copyright ©2015 East Tennessee State Athletics. All Rights Reserved.


text:
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