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- John De Herrera
- Santa Barbara, CA
- United States
This conversation is closed.
The case for the Article V Convention
We know our approach to existence is being subverted. The War on Terror, the War on Drugs, non-transparent elections, etc. are charades specifically meant to keep humanity enslaved. Politics As Usual keeps the charade in place. If you can stop Politics As Usual, you have a good chance of opening up political dialogue, and thus a chance to galvanize people to break the status quo so it can be reformed..
The Constitution contains a convention clause in Article V. If America held a convention, it requires that delegates would have to be elected by the states, the delegates would then convene to draft/propose amendments, those proposals would then be sent to the states for possible ratification. In other words, the Article V Convention is a three-part national discussion which stops Politics As Usual dead in its tracks. It breaks the current status quo of institutionalized corruption so it can be reformed.
We already know where things are headed with corporate governance--it's in the process of removing all protections. Public government has been drowned in private money. The Article V Convention will engage and re-educate everyone, and we can discuss things--not on a blog--but on the authority of the law, which would become binding if enough people of the states agree to ratify something.
The Article V Convention is the objective solution, based on all we know to be true of history and the human condition. It is a popular discussion the powers that be do not want to have.
Here are links to review:
Dec 10 2012: One of my favorite things to say about the convention clause is that it embodies our ultimate right of alter/abolish. It's the Declaration of Independence written into the Constitution. If not now, when?
Dec 10 2012: Absolutely now, or else neverDec 9 2012: Pat, in regards to unions, they too have been overtaken by money and operatives and no longer operate as they originally did. Today they are another wedge issue that plays into the hands of the two party system. In regards to private money coursing through public elections, I think it matters very much. Whether we agree or not on unions or money does not interest me as much as whether we agree that the Constitution has a convention clause, and that it is part of it for a reason. The people deserve to go through the process.
Dec 10 2012: The unions are the problem in the public sector. Here in Calif the estimated unfunded liabilities are 500 billion and they own the elections and can do as they see fit. What is as bad about them as the crony capitalists (big banks, ADM, GM, etc.) is that they are forever or until the end of the country what ever comes first.
Regarding the convention clause I am all ears and going to school on youDec 9 2012: Pat, not sure what you mean.
Dec 9 2012: "removing personhood from corporations"
They are both insidious. But I'm not sure it really matters that much in the election as even though 2 billion was spent on the presidential election in the scheme of things it is not that much E.G. Procter and Gamble spends 3 billion a year on advertising.
The problem with the unions are that they are way of life that metatheses in the economy and makes the culture worse.
I get that you are mostly referring to crony capitalism which I agree with. Since you are so aware of the constitution I would hope that you are also aware of economics.Dec 9 2012: Hi Robert, there are no limits in theory, but in terms of practical politics the delegates would figure out what ought to be addressed over things which might be marginal. I sure like some of your ideas on what ought to be addressed, to be sure, but in terms of selling the idea to the average citizen, I like to stay on the points of removing personhood from corporations, reversing the ruling that money is speech--things most Americans recognize as problematic.
Dec 9 2012: Would the same apply to unions?Dec 9 2012: John, I appreciate all of this. Thank you. Would a class I or a class II be the better option.
Could items like the use of Executive Orders be on the table?
Could a reset to a constitutional government be addressed and all agencies be reviewed independently for deletion?
Could we require that all elected officials past and present are subject to the law ... no opting out?
Could we limit terms and set wages and stop congress from managing their own salary? Perks? Etc ...
What would be the limits of what could be addressed?Dec 6 2012: The prevalence of the internet might make this work.
The major media will make it into a propaganda tool.
You might find more information at this sight: http://www.conconcon.org/
I have not yet looked at it beyond the introductory page, but it looks like it might be educational.
Dec 7 2012: Hi Barry, I was lucky enough to attend the conference at Harvard last year. I hope you can get round to reading the report by the Congressional Research Service. The media may put up a resistance, try and get people to fear it, but once there is popular support it's all over, and once called, I think anyone who is not on the up and up will want to get the out of the way. Time will tell, in the mean time, the more Americans who are aware of it, and know how to talk about it, of course the better.Dec 5 2012: As I understand your Article V proposal - it is to have 34 states request a constitutional convention thru their legislatures. The closest we came to this was with the 17th amendment which was driven by a single issue -
the direct election of senators, and this occurred I believe some 100 years ago. Up until that time US senators
were elected by state legislators. There were major problems with having state legislators elect US senators
including numerous instances of corruption (bribery) and partisan gridlock where lacking a winning vote states
went for years without a US senator position being filled. In other words there was a compelling problem/issue
driving the change.
It seems to me you need to pick a problem/issue that is just as compelling to drive this Article V proposal.
Dec 5 2012: Tom my proposal is to 1) Get people aware that such a feature exists in our Constitution, and 2) How it can work for us. The problem/issue just as compelling today is the Article V Convention itself. We have a number of issues facing us, none of which will be addressed by the Congress.
Dec 5 2012: I agree with you and I am glad you are out there doing this, but I would have a plan B if the A plan doesn't seem to be going anywhere - and that plan B is to start talking more about the specific issues and proposals that might be addressed by an Article V Convention.
Dec 6 2012: Tom, in my opinion, with unlimited private funds now coarsing through public government, not to mention the electronic voting machines operating on proprietary source code, there is no plan B, i.e. it's convention of bust. Will we get it? Time will tell.Dec 5 2012: I had no idea about this, thank you for bringing it up.
I read part of your link and the greatest sucess was prompting congress to pass the 17th amendment. That sucks, as that amendment further deteriorated the Republic for the same reason TL brings up the 1819 SCOTUS case.
Dec 5 2012: Pat, the convention clause embodies our greatest right--that of alter/abolish. A convention of state delegates will create a political dynamic which currently does not exist. Imagine if you are a corrupt politician or judge, and you were just informed America is going to dust off the Constitution and put it to work. Think you might change your attitude? Whether or not an amendment is ratified, the constitutional process is akin to turning on the lights and having a grand civics ceremony that puts everyone at the same table.
Dec 5 2012: I think I get it (as far as I know), but the fact that people went to this trouble to weaken the constitution indicates an ignorance of the definition of a Republic. Which is the bigger problem
Dec 6 2012: Pat, one of the really great things about the Article V Convention is that it will re-educate two or three generations of Americans in one fell swoop. It will be like a grand civics lesson, and I have no doubt there are thousands of knowledgeable Americans who will rise to the occasion should we build that tipping-point calling for a convention.Dec 6 2012: Even though they did not back then?Dec 5 2012: This sure sounds like an important conversation you two are having. Can you dumb it down for me? I get the OP, but the three responses are pretty esoteric. Whasssup?
Dec 5 2012: Edward, it is an important conversation--objectively the most important conversation because it deals with the actual problem, not one of the many symptoms cause by it. May I ask you to read the link above? It's will take thirty minutes to an hour. Let me know your thoughts.
Dec 5 2012: I read them before posting. I found them both germane and helpful, thank you for them John. Is this a Gordian-knot wrapped in smoke and mirrors? I am hearing things here that sound like the result of highly-paid lawyers acting on orders of mysterious origin to render an article of the Constitution useless. I guess I need to add this to the long list of issues about which I need to inform myself. Thanks? :-)
Dec 6 2012: Edward, yes, you are correct. The only reason we've never had a convention is a bunch of lawyers and ivory tower types pretending the issue is complex. It's simply a national discussion, but not the bogus discussion put on by politicians and media heads. This issue is the one which all the others are tied to, so if you can help raise awareness of it, that would be a positive thing. Will we ever get it? Who knows, at the least it's nice to be talking about the objective solution? Thanks for your interest and comments.Dec 5 2012: TED Lover, I understand your position, but all of history proves it to be incorrect. To paraphrase your position, it's that the people will be denied their right to a convention because the court has declared it a political question, and therefore up to Congress--that the convention call is discretionary as opposed to ministerial in nature--and in terms of practical politics the Congress is never going to put its powers on the chopping block for a bunch of state delegates to cut into.
According to your position, the Constitution is what the Congress or court says it is, whereas all of history shows that the Constitution is what the people say it is. Political science shows that once a tipping-point is achieved, the gate-keepers of the status quo will move out of the way or face even greater problems.
There are many aspects of our history which politicians and judges don't talk about--for instance what you state above, that the court has ruled that what was meant to be ministerial in nature--the convention call--is discretionary on the part of Congress, i.e. the court has ruled that the ultimate right to alter/abolish is up to the politicians in Congress. If Americans were told that, there would be problems, so the statists never discuss it. Not because they don't feel like it, but because there would be hell to pay if the people understood what was going on.
On the other hand, if the people understood that a convention is not only not dangerous, but mathematically impossible to be so, not to mention the only objective way to redirect the course of government, then they would desire it, a tipping-point would be achieved, and the convention would be called.
You may have noticed one of the links above, a report put out by Congress this past summer about the Article V Convention. Congress did not request the report because it/they had nothing better to report. They know more and more folks are beginning to ponder it.
Dec 5 2012: .
I disagree with your analysis. You say, "According to your position, the Constitution is what the Congress or court says it is, whereas all of history shows that the Constitution is what the people say it is.". That is not the case (easily proved with documentary evidence). It has become more and more of the case in recent history, but it was never the intent or the law, as government was not supposed to consider anything not authorized by the constitution. This WAS our greatest protection, as individuals and residents of our states. States were (pre McCulloch v. Maryland) sovereign nations that were part of a treaty organization.
If I look at our history and delete the parts where most people were not wealthy enough to vote, or where an unconstitutional civil war forced many states to submit to an unconstitutional authority, under duress, I can begin to make sense of your position, but it's not an accurate rendition of history, thus it is misleading. Americans have been intentionally lied to in our formal educations, and people think that government is something that it was never supposed to be (thanks to the Bill of Rights and those states who successfully blocked ratification of the Constitution without a Bill of Right, and maintained their right to secede).
Today, thanks to the overthrow of the constitution as the law of the land, neighbor is pitted against neighbor and there are no more certainties or safeguards. We have become a divided nation and government has become all-powerful.
About 10 years ago, there was a movement for demanding an Article V convention based on several hundred applications over our history. It turns out that Congress doesn't keep track of these applications, so it couldn't audit them. Not being able to audit them prevented them from authorizing it, even though a search of state records showed that applications had been submitted.
The peoples' will was thwarted again.
Dec 5 2012: Ted Lover, the Constitution is what the people say it is, and the only reason we've never had one is because we've been lied to for over half a century as to what one actually is.
If one knows what it is in actuality--a three-part national discussion which breaks the status quo of politics as usual--then anyone sincere would immediately begin scheming how to popularize it.
As mentioned earlier, the Congressional Research Service issued the paper this year. The powers that be know that people are waking up to the idea.
The Constitution cannot be overthrown, it can only be ignored. Once enough of us want it to be obeyed, it will be, and in a natural progression of events it will return us to its founding principles.Dec 5 2012: .
Won't work. Here's why:
Back in the 1980s, congress gave itself a 25% pay raise with the stipulation that 8 years later (when G. W. Bush was out of office) that cost of living increases would kick in making pay raises automatic without the required vote. People were outraged, but what could they do? One student in Texas had an idea. Knowing that one of the original Bill of Rights (that failed raitification) prohibited pay raises until an election has intervened, began lobbying state houses across the country. In 1992, just as the raises were to be implemented, it became our 27th amendment.
Congress was furious when the archivist announced that it had passed. They claimed the right to accept or reject Article V Amendments, but the people objected. Congress had to find another way around it. It took a few days, but they found one.
It was a time of high inflation, caused by congress intentionally increasing the money supply in order to cause inflation so that the value of the huge national debt (thanks to Regan) would be devalued. This, congress said, meant that for as long as they do not give themselves cost of living increases, they are in violation of the amendment because their pay was being decreased. Judge Sporkin of the 9th district court agreed, saying that those who filed suit were miscreants and that congress should never be held hostage by the people. It was then official. A cost of living increase in pay is not a pay increase.
The Supreme Court never had the authority that it claims today until it gave itself unconstitutional powers in a bloodless coup d'etat in 1819. It decreed that the Constitution is not law (no matter that it says it is), but is a guideline. Now, no matter what amendments Article V would come up with will be invalidated if congress & the courts consider it a "political matter".
We need to re-ratify the 10th amendment first, because until that is done, the Constitution is no longer the law of the land.
Dec 5 2012: You fail to mention that Tip O'neal was the speaker of the house at that time and the spending increase was his doing as it always is the purview of congress. Just as Pelosi foisted Obama care on the American people. Just as the Clinton surplus was created by Newt Gingrich.
Dec 5 2012: In your zeal to damn Democrats & liberals (who are not necessarily the same animal, by the way) rather than see the larger picture, you misrepresent history. It is very unfair. You fail to mention that the huge national debt was ENTIRELY the result of the Regan revolution and Regonomics. It was a bipartisan doing led by Reagan's popularity.
You also fail to mention that the senate was Republican during three of the four Reagan congressional sessions, and no spending bill became law without the consent of the (large majority republican) senate and the republican president - Ronald Reagan - who pushed his massive spending bills through with full support of the Republicans.
Both sides agreed that inflation was necessary in order to reduce the "value" of the Reagan debt, which was as terrifying then as today's debt is to us.
Hate doesn't help. We need to be able to talk about history as it happened, no matter how much we don't like looking at ourselves as we do so.
Dec 5 2012: Again it was not a result of Reaganomics.
The senate does not create the budget. It was mostly a deception by the Tip O'Neil in other words he lied and Reagan regretted agreeing to it.
Again one of the most powerful people is the speaker of the house and they are the ones who have the most control over the budget. Which I suppose is why the senate not submitting a budget in years is not as big a deal?Dec 5 2012: You have so little understanding of how government works, yet you are furious about mistakes in your own thinking. The reason you have not seen any spending bills come out of the senate in recent years is because ALL spending bills MUST originate in the house. They CAN'T originate in the senate.
Furthermore, Ronald Reagan's entire campaign theme was "Reagonomics", called trickle-down economics. He wasn't talked into it. He campaigned on it. It involves massive government spending that is supposed to put money in the hands of the wealthy so that they could become job creators, and in this way increase revenues. The only thing that Reaganomics gave us was inflation and massive debt that it took Clinton to begin to get us out of. Then came Bush 2 who merely took Reaganomics and put it on steroids and broke our government.
I will grant that Obama seems to like the failed Reagan policies, but he is no worse than the two mentioned above who came before him.
Before you argue about government, perhaps you should learn about it. Read the constitution perhaps? I keep correcting errors in your posts that anyone with a basic understanding of government should know before they take such hardened stances, such as the house originates all spending bills and congress authorizes and funds various government departments, etc.


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The bowl stands at about a foot in height and, despite being very light, is sturdy and extremely well balanced so it won't topple over when filled.
You can now buy a kit for this bowl on the Instructables Store. We're making these ourselves at the Instructables Lab, so supply will be limited!
Step 1: Modeling the hand
When posing the hand, I had a few things to bear in mind. Obviously I wanted all of the fingertips to touch the ground at the same level so that the bowl would stand upright. I also had to think carefully about the way I splayed out the fingers. The fingers needed to provide as broad a base as possible while also looking natural and comfortable (Poser does nothing to stop you contorting its models into grotesque and unnatural positions, so this is trickier than you might expect).
A more subtle issue was to do with how I knew the model would eventually be sliced when I exported it into 123D Make. I knew from the outset that I wanted this bowl to made of radial slices converging somewhere around the base of the palm. This meant that I had to position the fingers so that they all roughly pointed straight outward from the same spot (so that each finger would contain a slice of plywood). Any major misalignment would make slicing the model impossible. This is an excellent example of how crucial it can be to visualize the entire design process of a project before you even start modeling.
Good Idea
Hi PenfoldPlant,
Awesome design / Project.
I'm with everyone else below, would love to build my own. But the link to the store does not work, i assume that this is no longer available to purchase the kit.
As with others would love to get the final laser cut files, or dxf files for this project.
Have downloaded your eps, and pdf files. but they seem to be an earlier version than you final design.
Would be happy to pay for files, if need be.
Hi PenfoldPlant,
I'm really impressed by this design, not only the creative idea to mend a bowl to a hand, but also how slim and how natural looking the design is.
I would like to build my own, but it seems that the template for the laser cutter from step 3 isn't the final form. That and I can't get a link to the store where i can purchase a kit to build one ; thus me having 2 questions :
- Is the kit a pile of already cut-out sheets of wood, or is there a simpler PDF file i can buy to laser cut it myself?
- WHERE can i purchase such a product?
If you can send me this file, Please send me e-mail with this file
I am Korean^^ my e-mail address is ( firstname.lastname@example.com)
Many Thanks
I recently cut out and assembled the files both card and wood. The bowl looks more like one of your previous attempts and not the finished product. It just topples under its own weight and is much lower than the image above. Is this right?
Really like this project! WOW!
Do you know what Autodesk plans to do with 123D MAKE after it expires next month???
Still has a ways to go before we can do a project like the Hand Bowl.
Radial slices, please. :)
Stackable layers only for now it seems
No radial slicing
No orthogonal slicing with gaps.
But still a great step in the right direction!!!
I'm hoping to see that radial function there very SOON.
I am Mac-only AND not on-line in my workshop. So, an on-line-only version would create a huge obstacle for me to be a 123DMake user. UGH! Not so happy. To me, that's like having to borrow tools from someone else every time I need to use them. I would like to request that stand-alone copies be made available as well.
I really do like 123DMake and looking forward to the "radial" function.
Is there a place where users/makers can discuss 123DMake? The Autodesk blog does not seem to be very active.
EPS files hate me.
Also,some parts are disturbingly thin in some places...is this supposed to be right?
Projects like this raise the proverbial bar... and they deserve a wide audience.
They are intended to educate, encourage and motivate... not to mention mind-boggle simple folks like me! ;-)

subset: commoncrawl


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Lemon tree, very pretty...
Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I know of at least two people who have meyer lemon trees in the Northeast--a man I met in the produce section today and choco_lab (NJ) from here on the boards. If they can have lemon trees, I would like one, too. Is there a preferred source for mail order? Do I just keep it inside till the nice weather comes? How long will it be before I actually have lemons and how much will the tree yield? I would very much like a meyer lemon tree. Please help a wanna-be-left-coast hound who lives in the Land of Steady Habits.
Four Winds Growers is my mailorder source for citrus.
these are on dwarfiing rootstock but they bear quite a lot while staying small.
which is what you want if you have to bring your tree in and out. I usually wait until it is thoroughtly warm (May here) to take my citrus outside and bring it in end of Sept/early October. (Meyer can take more cold than the Kaffir lime) I am a bad grower (tend to feed and water less than maximally) - others can comment on how many lemons you might get - but the flowers are wonderful and you can buy the lemons periodically at Trader Joes and recently I even bought a container at Costco.
re: jen kalb
Thank you kindly!
re: jen kalb
easy for you to say - youall with your Trader Joe's and Costcos!! I've found meyer lemons around here one time - ever. And they were pricey.
I got hooked on cooking with Meyer lemons when a friend moved to Pasadena and would send me a wine box full every year. But she moved! A visit to Liguria last summer really cinched my desire for a lemon tree of some kind, and dwarf Meyer improved is the obvious choice.
How much light do they need in the winter? I don't have a sun room, but my art studio has four windows (one east, one sort of west, two south, shaded by a gigantic deciduous tree)
Go for it!
My meyer lemon tree is one of my favorite and most rewarding plants--and is always a great conversation piece in NJ!
I see that White Flower Farm offers Meyer Lemon trees at less than $40 ea. and was tempted to get another, but I have no room left!
I got my tree years ago (forget how many--over 5, I know) at a Smith and Hawken store, on a clearance table. It had a small, ripening lemon already on it! They sell them on their website, at $49 ea. I don't know if they source them from the same place now, but I've had good luck with mine.
I've also seen meyers and other citrus at my local Home Depot. I picked up a kumquat for $19 a few years ago, and it did really well and produced a lot of fruits...until I killed it through negligence :(
As Jen said, I just put my citrus outside once I know the evening temps won't go below 40 (I have some fleece covers that I use if we get a cooler night). I will be putting my trees outside this weekend.
Likewise, I bring them inside for the winter before the nights go below 40. They winter over in my bright, unheated sunroom quite well. From the time the flowers drop and the fruit sets, it takes about 3-4 months for the fruit to mature. Some of the little baby fruits drop off--that's natural.
This past year was a bad one for my meyer lemon tree, I'll admit--a bad rain storm and cold, rainy spell (and probably a few birds) knocked off all of the tiny fruits last summer and I had a lemon-less winter :( Better luck this year! Prior to that, I averaged 3-7 fruits a year...more as the plant matured.
I keep my tree trimmed down to 3-31/2' so that I don't need to plant it in a huge pot that I can't easily move in and out of the house. Also, I re-pot every 2-3 years, since the soil nutrients get depleted, and at that time, I prune back the roots a bit.
When you pot your tree, make sure the pot is roomy enough, and put a good layer of gravel on the bottom of the pot to provide good drainage--the roots will rot if they are sitting in saturated soil.
They are pretty forgiving as far as watering--I've forgotten to the point where leaves were curling and dropping, but it still hangs in there. Better to err on the dry side and not over water. I feed with diluted Miracid in early spring and periodically (when I remember) throughout the time they are blooming and setting fruit.
Good luck! Warning: you may become addicted!
Every winter my tiny sunroom is crammed with citrus, olive, pomegranate and camelia plants to the point where I can barely maneuver through to water them. I need a conservatory (if only!)
re: choco_lab38
Was hoping you would find this post. I really appreciate all the info. Thanks so much!
These look beautiful!
And I've been looking for an excuse to go for a drive in that general direction--White Flower Farms is just an hour away. I can make a day of it, get my lemon tree and stock up on teas at Harney, just over the state line in Millerton, NY. A really beautiful ride should you get to this neck of the woods. And you can add parts of the CT Wine Trail if you are ever here for a weekend. But back to the garden!
The living room (which opens to the deck) gets plenty of sun. In fact, April (Queenie, the real kattyeyes) loves to sunbathe there, so it will be a perfect spot for the meyer lemon tree until it can go outside.
By the way, I remember some of those bad rain storms last summer--no doubt they were tough on the little tree!
I'm sure, as with so many of my favorite things, I'll become addicted. When we get going with the herbs (and maybe tomatoes again) on the deck, I'll post some photos so you won't feel alone in the way your sunroom is crammed. We actually moved the patio table off the deck last year just to make room for all the plants!
BTW, I've never grown strawberries, but saw them under "May we also suggest"--have you? Very tempting.
re: kattyeyes
OH! Lucky you!! I've always wanted to make a trip up to White Flower Farm! It is my absolute favorite mailorder source. Their catalogs make me drool and anything I've ordered from them is top-notch. Your day trip sounds wonderful!
HaHa!...Strawberries, you ask??
About 3 years ago I installed a circular, terraced strawberry bed (strawberry pyramid) from Miller Nurseries.
(The plants quickly send off runners and hide the unsightly corrugated metal, btw.
)It's done really well and I get a pretty good crop (unfortunately the slugs like them too...) In fact, sometimes I can't keep up with them and pick them all before they rot.
But the variety of strawberry that came with the kit (Ozark Beauty, I guess) isn't quite as tasty as whatever they grow on some of the local u-pick farms. I sometimes think about replacing them with something else, but they're so well established, I don't have the heart to pull them all up and start over.
I don't use pesticides and really the only pests that I have a problem with are slugs. Birds don't even seem to bother them much--they either don't realize what they are yet, or they prefer the black oil sunflower seeds I put out for them.
I actually took the day off from work yesterday, mainly to move my plants outside in preparation of the great weekend we have in store! It's wonderful to have my sunroom free again!
re: choco_lab38
dont get your hopes up too much about WFF - its in a pretty area for a daytrip and Im sure prettily presented, but they dont actually grow their stuff I dont think. I admit it Ive got jaded over the years!
re: jen kalb
jen, now that you've said this, I'll tell you my mom's first reaction when I said I wanted to go to WFF was "overrated and overpriced"--but I found their lemon trees were actually LESS expensive than I can get at my local Vinny's (I think they told me $50) and as I've been out to WFF before, I know it will be a pretty ride. If I'm going to haul all the way to NY to Harney's, I can make a nice day of it. If you get up that way and are a tea lover, do find your way to Millerton and Harney's Tea Tasting Room.
re: kattyeyes
Your mom is probably in my generation!
like I 've said, said, I recommend going to the source who actually propogates and grafts these trees - fourwinds - you will be sure to have a dwarf tree rather than something that will get huge on you, like the stuff in the black tubs from normal greenhouses, but it will be a lovely outing and you will be able to rely on the quality at WFF. Its been a long time since I have been to Millerton let along Litchfield- many years ago used to cruise for indoor plants - Lauray of Salisbury up in that same area is fantastic along with Logees at the opposite NE corner of the state - they (Logees) also sell Citrus trees and you can see their huge old specimens in their greenhouse. enjoy your trip and report back!
re: jen kalb
My mom is 73, bet you are younger! But she is very young at heart and doesn't look her age.
I appreciate the follow-up. Did you start with a one-year tree or a two-three year tree? I was all set to mail order it, then I thought, well if I can drive somewhere to pick it up (WFF), wouldn't that be easier/better?
I see Logee's has dwarf fig trees! I get this way with all my hobbies...it's so easy to get carried away.
And here is the 108-year-old lemon tree you mentioned--WOW:
So, is it just as good to do a road trip to Logees, then, as to mail order from Four Winds? I'm flexible and it's just as nice to take a day trip to the Quiet Corner.
re: kattyeyes
If you want a citrus to grow, I would mailorder from four winds. Like I said, I think its rather likely (from appearance and description ) that WFF is selling fourwinds stock. However, there is no reason not to go over to WFF and buying something on the spot if you like what you see.
If I recall, Logee's trees are on the smaller side, and I dont know if they are grafted to be dwarfed which is a consideration if you have to move a plant in and out..But whatever you decide, you can have a nice roadtrip. enjoy!
re: kattyeyes
Love that little fig tree! Hmmm...
I have fig trees, too--one planted in the ground that we wrap up every winter, and 2 in containers that winter in the garage.
Regarding WFF, I would liken them to my favorite mailorder cheese source--I order cheese from them that I can't find locally, trusting that I'll receive a good quality specimen. They don't make the cheese, but are a middle-man, looking for and acquiring the best quality product and caring for it in between its journey from manufacturer to consumer.
WFF quality standards are pretty high and if they say they are selling a dwarf lemon tree, it is most probably a dwarf. I've ordered from them numerous times and, unlike several other sources, have never had a single problem. Most importantly, their plants have been true specimens. It would be interesting to know who their source for Meyers is--if it is Four Winds, why not take the drive, have an enjoyable day and support a local business?
Smith and Hawken acquires their citrus offerings from Four Winds, or used to. I have a tag from my Moro Blood Orange tree, purchased from S&H, that has the Four Winds name on it. So far, in about 4 years, I've only had one orange. It's more tempermental than the Meyer...but it's currently beginning to bud, so, here's hoping!
If you did order directly from Four Winds, I'd get the older specimen if you're in a hurry for lemons :)
re: choco_lab38
I love your strawberry pyramid!!! I will have to show my mom who has a real yard and real gardens. I'm just a container kid with pots on the deck and flowers planted in the ground out front (townhouse). I appreciate the tip on Ozark Beauty--I will try to see what they plant around here and see if I can grow them in strawberry jars. Oh, and glad to read that the birds won't be interested in the berries. Ours get black oil sunflower seeds also, so between that and the cat, it should keep them out of our plants!
What a great day to be off from work, btw--good for you! Enjoy!
We just bought some fruit trees at Logee's - kaffir lime, key lime and Meyer lemon (the last two will be Mother's Day gifts). If you like tropical greenhouses (and aren't really claustrophobic), it's a GREAT time!
Our little specimens (about 6" tall) have been repotted (@ Logee's) and are doing well. I think they may have fruit next year...can't remember, but the kaffir lime leaves will be ready for vodka this year!
Thanks, everyone, for your input and advice. I did NOT make it to WFF (no one felt like going for a ride with me, BOOHOO), but did get to a local nursery yesterday that had about a half dozen beautiful semi-dwarf Meyer lemon trees.
I'm such a nut, I named the tree Limona (naming credit goes to my mom)--HA HA! She must be a 2-3 year-old tree with several bunches of little, green lemon buds all over the tree. I am anxiously awaiting my very first Meyer lemons. Will probably find a nice, large pot (permanent home) for her this weekend.
re: kattyeyes
thats great! Just remember that a bunch of those little lemons are likely to drop off - natural thinning, especially if you pot up, so dont freak. also squirrels can go after the fruit if you put it outside (maybe not where you are)
re: jen kalb
Thank you for both those warnings--especially about the squirrels. We have a frequent visitor who seems to think we put the bird feeder out just for him and he loves to survey (and run all over) the deck. I wish I had a way to keep the squirrel away, but there is a large tree that grows all the way up to the deck and he runs up and down it frequently.
re: kattyeyes
Very pretty indeed!
What a cute picture--it looks like someone appreciates the wonderful scent of the flowers!
Best of Luck with Limona!
Keep us posted on her progress!
re: choco_lab38
Hi there! Update on Limona--we moved her to a very beautiful pot and counted *18* little lemons today (they look like baby limes). The original ones are getting bigger--they're about the size of grapes now. The newer small ones look like tiny Christmas tree bulbs.
How are your lemon trees doing?
Limona's in the house with the tomato plants and the rest of our newly planted herbs. It looks pretty funny in our living room, but we're going to have a couple of cold nights before it warms up again, so there will be a little plant slumber party here the first part of the week.
I'll post pics again when it warms up. Would love to know how all the other lemon trees are doing!
re: kattyeyes
How exciting! I'm glad Limona is doing so well for you!
I've moved mine back inside, too--this weather is making me crazy! I want my garden planted already!! I hope it's not a shorter-than-usual growing season this year :(
I have tons of flower buds on my Meyer at this point, and some are just on the verge of opening...I'll see if i can figure out how to post a picture.
I have two blood orange trees and a key lime tree that are blooming and the oranges have tiny fruits developing...fingers crossed!
I also just purchased a young variegated pink lemon tree, but am not expecting anything from that this year.
Hope this see-saw weather ends this week!
re: choco_lab38
Right there with you on the weather...though Wednesday's supposed to be the turning point and Thursday should feel like summer again.
Would love to see pictures--just click on "attach photo" and browse for the filename. The most interesting picture of all is going to be your sunroom when ALL your plants go back in for their winter hibernation. And you thought you couldn't walk in that room LAST year! ;)
I saw a dwarf grapefruit tree at our local nursery. It had one orange-sized grapefruit on it. I need to quit while I'm ahead, though, since it's easy to get carried away and then I'll be in trouble. Poor Limona will have to be an only citrus child, though I am jealous of your oranges and limes. Your new pink lemon tree sounds like a beauty. Maybe we should just move to California, then our plants can live happily ever after in our backyards!
re: kattyeyes
Here's a picture of my sunroom 3 years ago, Feb. '06--already crammed. I had 5 nice lemons at that time.
The olive tree behind it is twice as large now :)
re: choco_lab38
HA HA! It's a little bit what my living room looks like now due to the cold weather. I didn't know the tree would continue to bear fruit in the wintertime! I can't wait for the first lemons. How much longer for the ones that are grape-tomato-sized to be ready--any idea?
Is it really possible all 18 or so of these baby lemons are going to make it, or am I bound to lose some before they mature?! Fingers crossed! And now I'll leave you alone. It is always fun to chat about our trees, tho'!
re: kattyeyes
They do take awhile to fully ripen--months, in fact. The lemons that I photographed there were ripe in early February, and they had blossomed back in the previous spring.
Because it's "everbearing" it's also usual to have fruit on the tree while another flush of blooms appear.
You should expect to lose some of the tiny fruits--fruit drop is normal. Also, if the fruit sets in a cluster, I've heard that it's best to limit the cluster to one fruit, to maximize the size of the fruit. If you don't, you'll have 2-3 little lemons, instead of one bigger lemon. I've never had the heart to do this, though.
I hope you get a good crop! Post a picture soon!
re: choco_lab38
Well, you wanted pictures and I wanted to learn to make a video. Hope you enjoy April Katt's adventures in the garden (oh, and in the dishwasher). This was a fun project! How do you like Limona's new pot? I think it suits her. ;)
re: kattyeyes
Love it!! Well done!
Thank you, that really brightened my morning! Give April Katt a belly scratch for me! She's been working so hard on her garden! :)
Look at all of those little lemons! Love the pot, too -- Perfetto!
One can imagine Limona transported to a sunny mediterranean balcony!
(With another week of cool drizzle in store, I'd like to be there myself!)
My tree is loaded with blossoms and I believe a number have set fruit (I've been trying my best to pollinate them all) but I won't count my lemons before they're picked!
I'm impressed with your ability to make such a good video collage! Was it difficult? Love the music, too!
Here's a current picture of my tree, and April's canine counterpart, Lulu!
re: choco_lab38
Dear choco_lab38,
I tried to reply to you last night, but the site clocked and I lost the whole post, so here I am again. We both thank you so much for your nice feedback!
Please talk to me about pollinating lemons. Am I supposed to be doing something? Uh-oh!
Our trees look a little different, don't they? Or maybe I just can't see the trunk of yours as clearly--yours is definitely blossoming like mad! Mine has more fruits than blossoms, though I do see buds out there. I'm sure Limona is as confused by our recent weather as the rest of us have been, so maybe she'll be a late bloomer, so to speak. So much for Memorial Day being the unofficial start of summer this year!
In your previous post you had said:
<< I've heard that it's best to limit the cluster to one fruit, to maximize the size of the fruit. If you don't, you'll have 2-3 little lemons, instead of one bigger lemon. I've never had the heart to do this, though.>>
I don't know if you can tell from the pictures in the video, but there are several clusters just as you mentioned. Seeing as some have already randomly dropped, I figure who am I to play Mother Nature and take away any of the fruit. I'd be afraid if I did any limiting, whatever fruit I left behind would be doomed to fall off. Murphy's law, right? Am I safer to do this once there is a clear "leader" in the cluster that's bigger than the others? I might get brave as they continue to grow and I can choose that way.
This was my first video collage. Having Windows Movie Maker (and using the "automovie" feature) makes it easier--I never even realized it was already loaded on our laptop. I watched a friend create one at his house and thought, "Hey, I can do that, too!" It's fun!
P.S. BTW, I showed my mom Lulu's photo and she couldn't figure out where the dog was because she looks like a stuffed animal in the picture. ;) Is she a Lhasa? Her collar even appears to match your pillows. She's very adorable, and not at all spoiled, I'm sure (just like April Katt). ;) I like to say, "Spoiled, but not rotten."
re: kattyeyes
"Spoiled, but not rotten" is an excellent descriptor! I'll be borrowing that one! Lulu is a 4 year- old shih tzu. My "choco_lab" moniker is in memory of my Lab of 13 years who passed away just before Lulu came into our lives. Quite a transition, let me tell you! (But saving money on dog food big-time!)
Lulu does a much better job than the Lab did in keeping squirrels out of the garden--she's ULTRA vigilant, whereas he was very laissez-faire! LOL
I'm no expert, but I think you're on the right track as far as leaving the cluster alone until they are more established. And for pollinating, I just use a little paintbrush to help things along by picking up some pollen and lightly brushing the stamen. But don't worry about it--it's not at all necessary, since the scented blooms attract numerous insects outside.
I have a larger than average amount of blooms this year, and a key lime tree that never bloomed much before is also blooming like crazy. It may finally bear fruit, I hope!
My Meyer's shape is more sideways growing than yours, with some low branches, and was like that when I got it--must have been pruned or trained differently. It doesn't have a long trunk.
Last weekend I was in my local nursery and saw that they had several citrus trees grown as standards, with a long trunk 3 feet high. I was tempted to get a Dancy tangerine or pink grapefruit, but enough is enough...Maybe they'll go on sale eventually...
I'll now say a little prayer before hitting the "Post my reply" button...this site conks out on me so many times...
re: choco_lab38
Please tell me you brought your citrus trees in tonight. The weatherman said it might get to 40 here! Then again, you are south of me and hopefully are warmer. We left the rest of the plants out and I think they can handle it, but Limona is back in the living room!
I have more pictures to download from the weekend as I want to ask you about these kind of dry patches on some of the fruit. I took close-ups so you'll be able to see. I wonder if you know what I mean.
Re the pink grapefruit, I saw a dwarf grapefruit tree at our local nursery and it had a fruit on it! I think you need a greenhouse. ;) I wish we could built something like that on our deck, but don't think it would be too practical.
P.S. I'm sorry about the loss of your handsome chocolate lab, but glad you have Lulu to keep you company and help you keep the squirrels out of the garden.
re: kattyeyes
Our low yesterday was a relatively balmy 51. I kept the citrus trees out, but I may bring them in later this week if it looks like we're going to get another rainy spell.
It's been my dream to have a greenhouse or conservatory...perhaps in another life!
Hello! Here are some photos to show you how Limona has grown. Smaller cluster of lemons (with fingers to show you size) is from the end of May. The blossoms and larger cluster are from this morning.
So, now, the all-important question: to break up the cluster or not? You know I hate to do it!
And another--I didn't capture it in any of these photos, but there are one or two lemons with kind of a brownish/grayish dry crack running down the side. What is this?
Everyone, please let me know how your citrus trees are doing. Would love to see photos, too.
re: kattyeyes
Beautiful! Looks very healthy.
I'm having real problems with my citrus this spring :(
I've been bringing them inside to avoid all of this rain and cool night temps and nearly ALL of the little fruits on my blood oranges and key limes have dropped off. And even though I had a zillion buds on my meyer lemon, almost nothing set! (Even though I saw plenty of bees on it on sunny days, and I tried helping the pollination along myself, nothing! )
I'm blaming the fluctuating temps--I don't know what else I'm doing wrong...Just wish this blasted rain and cool weather would end already--it's so frustrating!
Good for my lettuce, not too great for anything else...
re: choco_lab38
Oh, no! Limona is outside right now as we speak--in the rain. I am so bummed for you. I took a picture (to be downloaded yet) of a tree that belongs to folks we know the next town over. I don't even know if it's a meyer lemon or some other lemon, but it is an IMMENSE tree with NO blossoms or fruit whatsoever. When I find out more, I'll post again to see if they know what's going on.
I am tired of this weather, too...I can't even say it's good for my lettuce. My lettuce is OK enough, but not bustin' out all over as it is at my friends' house. I'm sending sunshine your way in hopes it comes here, too!
re: kattyeyes
As promised, here's a pic of our friends' lemon tree--can you believe the size of it? I think it "lives" in their garage in the wintertime. I will post again when I find out more--but no blooms, no fruit on this big guy!
Edit: If there's a way to turn a photo here, I don't know what it is, so apologies for the sideways view!
re: kattyeyes
I read through all your posts and wanted to add a few tips. I grow many types of citrus (i'm in the bay area) but I have many friends on the east coast that are doing just what you are doing and their trees all do well. Unlike some fruit trees, citrus can do well in a smaller pot relative to the size of the tree since they put out tiny thread roots. They are heavy feeders and I only use fish emulsion and organic citrus food. The biggest mistake people make with citrus is not to feed them. Once a month for nine months of the year...excluding nov-jan. You were smart to get a semi dwarf as you can always prune the tree to the size you want it and you'll get much more fruit faster than with a dwarf. Just remember, feed,feed,feed. Be careful with conventional fertilizers as they are always much stronger and it's easy to burn a citrus. Just use organics. hope this helps.
re: cakebaker
Thank you very much for this info! I will find some organic citrus food ASAP.
re: cakebaker
"The biggest mistake people make with citrus is not to feed them. Once a month for nine months of the year...excluding nov-jan"
I'm one of those people making the big mistake! Having moved from having 18 in-ground full-sized citrus trees and feeding three times a year to a place where I now have only three citrus trees in pots, (2 Meyer lemon and a blood orange), I never realized how different the feeding requirements would be. Am off to buy fish emulsion ASAP. Thank you for the "feed feed feed" advice.
re: cakebaker
cakebaker, thanks again. For Sherri and anyone else who might be reading along, I picked up Neptune's Harvest Fish & Seaweed Fertilizer (organic) at my local Agway. cakebaker, I remembered your fish emulsion advice--the Agway guy said the garden club had had great results with the addition of the kelp--that they weren't scientifically able to track what made it better, but that they had better results. I am only waiting till it dries out a little to applyl it since ALL our plants have been drenched with the rain over the past several days (feels like a lifetime at this point!). I do appreciate the tip.
re: kattyeyes
You can use any organic sea product...I like dry fish emulsion as it breaks down slowly. Liquid fish emulsion is fine too but it will of course run through a container so must be replenished. The dry sea products like Maxi or fish meal all work and stay with the plant longer. I use these and a dry organic citrus fertilizer and again the numbers are very low compared to conventional fertilizers so it won't harm the plant. you should see a flush of new flowers after about two weeks from feeding, in particular if you haven't been feeding them. You would be surprised how many people grow citrus and don't feed them. I think you'll like it. Another thing that your tree will love is a compost tea. I top the trees with organic compost and then steep compost in a 5 gal bucket and use the water to water all my plants. they love to be fed!
re: kattyeyes
a specific comment about the rain and feeding. Rain is full of oxygen so just before a rain is a good time to sprinkle handfuls of dry citrus fertilizer. the rain breaks it down slowly and rainwater is great for the trees. also another note about Four winds mail order. It's great and keep posted on their site as they are working on Italian lemons which are really worth growing. I have a large collection and they grow big fat lemons with many times the oil of lisbon or eureka in the peel.


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What are you baking these days? June 2011, part 2 [old]
Hi all, for some happy reason the June thread got very big very fast, so I thought a part 2 was a good idea for ease in loading, since it's the 15th.
I see we're all baking our little hearts out. "It's a good thing."
Just wanted to remind everybody of souschef's fun challenge for the month: a Brioche aux Fruits...
"The challenge, should choose to you accept it, is to make a 'Brioche aux Fruits'.
As made by a former wonderful pastry shop here (the Swiss owner unfortunately died many years ago), it consisted of a brioche with the top knot cut off, the delicious contents of the brioche scooped out, and the brioche shell filled with pastry cream and fruit, then the top knot replaced.
There was a thin chocolate shell on the bottom (inside) to prevent the brioche from going soggy.
The terms of the challenge is that the brioche has to be made, not purchased, and it should be done by July 4th, 2011."
Come one, come all - what are YOU baking these days?
Made some gluten-free cornmeal lemon cookies this week -- they're actually quite good! I think I want to try ivory teff flour instead of sorghum flour for my next project, though -- I might be crazy, but I detect a hint of bitterness/chalkiness that I think is attributable to that ingredient. Anybody else have experience baking with sorghum flour?
re: Blancmange
That looks so cool! How was it? I've never made/had one.
re: roxlet
Used to make quick versions of that as a dessert when I worked at the fish and chips shop - small plastic disposable bowls, Oreo cookies crushed in the bottom, Cool Whip with creme de menthe* stirred in on top, more crumbs to garnish, frozen. You'd be surprised how tasty they were.
* aka "cream dee mint" to my dad...
re: buttertart
Is that really how it's made? I might pass on it then, lol!
re: roxlet
I'm by no means whatsoever implying that that's how Blancmange necessarily made this one!!!!!!!!!!!!
Blancmange, hope you understand and please let us know how this was confected.
re: buttertart
omgosh, no worries at all! This was made with choc wafers/melted butter for the crust...the filling is whipping cream (beat stiff), marshmallows (melted with a little milk), crème de menthe, crème de cacao.
If you are at all into the chocolate & mint combo---this is the perfect summer pie for you. Super easy and gets tastier each day. I baked the crust for 10 min, but think it would be fine as a no-bake and just refrigerated .
re: Blancmange
I knew I was wrong even on my fish shop version - it was marshmallow fluff with creme de menthe and some cool whip on top, then crumbs. Dang.
I love mint and chocolate together (and this pie) but it annoys me to see mint as a garnish on non-mint desserts. Superfluous.
re: buttertart
Sorry to hear, mc. Hugs.
re: sweetTooth
sweetTooth, you might want to post this down farther on the thread, mc may not see it in this position. I have no idea why posts end up in odd places on CH but they surely seem to.
re: Blancmange
Blancmange -- could I get a more precise ratio for the butter to cookies in the crust, and the filling?
Also... there must be some kind of alcohol-free something for the flavoring for someone like me who doesn't use any alcohol in cooking? Hmmm. Chocolate and mint is one of my favorites! (ever tried the trader joe's peppermint joe joes?) I *want* to make this pie.
re: twilight goddess
Heat the cream, steep a good amount of mint in it, strain it out when it seems minty enough, chill it and whip?
re: twilight goddess
Sure!! Yes, if you want to do alcohol-free for kids, use a bit of mint extract in lieu of the liquors. Have done that for kids before.
1 1/2 cups choc wafer cookie crumbs
1/4 cup butter , melted
3 cups mini marshmallows
1/2 cup milk
1 1/2 cups chilled whipping cream
1/4 cup crème de menthe
3 tbsp crème de cacao
Few drops of green food color if you use clear creme de menthe
Heat oven to 350F. Combine butter and crumbs in 9-inch pie pan. Bake 10 min. Cool. Chill mixing bowl.
Melt Marshmallows with milk over lo-heat. Stir constantly. Chill until thickened.
In chilled bowl, beat cream until stiff. Add both creme's to marshmallow mixture and blend. Fold in whipped cream and food color. Pour into baked crust. Chill at least 4 hrs.
re: buttertart
I'd probably love that. Not-so premium mint chip ice cream is a guilty pleasure (although premium versions are also tasty!). One could also use the mint girl guide cookies to good effect here. Not sure my kids would like the alcohol taste so I might try peppermint extract...
Yesterday I made a focaccia with sourdough, and olive oil from Sicily. Turned out alright, though it was the first time I made it.
I made myself a sandwich with pastrami, iceberg salad and garlic dressing.
Yesterday, (Rainy)..I made a Banana Layer cake with a cream cheese icing , topped with crushed pecans and shaved dark chocolate.
Hi folks! I'm an old cook and a new baker. I don't actually care for sweets much but my DH craves sweets constantly.
Taking some much-needed hound advice on pan selection, last night I made angel food cupcakes. The batter tasted delightful but after cooking the cupcakes seemed very tough to me. I used this recipe: http://www.thekitchn.com/thekitchn/de... (I did not frost.)
I have a hand mixer and took ~5 minutes to incorporate the sugar, then whipped on high for ~2 more (was not sure how to tell when it was the right amount of glossy without being too stiff). Any tips from experienced angel food bakers out there?
Thanks all!


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The Wage Regulations Act protects wage earners from unfair practices regarding pay. Also, this Act protects employees from sex discrimination in relation to wages and requires employers to pay each employee (regardless of their sex) the same wages for jobs requiring comparable skills. Violation of this law requires the employer to increase the salary of the lower paid employee to eliminate the inequality.
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Prambanan Temple Compounds
Prambanan Temple Compounds
Built in the 10th century, this is the largest temple compound dedicated to Shiva in Indonesia. Rising above the centre of the last of these concentric squares are three temples decorated with reliefs illustrating the epic of the Ramayana, dedicated to the three great Hindu divinities (Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma) and three temples dedicated to the animals who serve them.
Ensemble de Prambanan
Construit au Xe siècle, c'est le plus grand ensemble shivaïte d'Indonésie. Au milieu de la dernière des enceintes carrées concentriques s'élèvent les trois temples, décorés de reliefs illustrant l'épopée du Ramayana, dédiés aux trois grandes divinités hindouistes : Shiva, Vishnu et Brahma, et trois temples dédiés aux animaux qui servent de monture à ces dieux.
مجمّع برامبانان
إنها المجموعة الشيفائية الكبرى في أندونيسيا وقد بنيت في القرن العاشر. ووسط آخر سور مربّع متراكز، ترتفع المعابد الثلاثة مزيّنةً بنقوش عن ملحمة رامايانا، وهي مكرّسة للآلهة الهندوسية الكبرى الثلاثة: شيفا، وفيشنو، وبراهما، وكذلك ثلاثة معابد مكرّسة للحيوانات التي تُستعمل مطيّة لتلك الآلهة.
source: UNESCO/ERI
source: UNESCO/ERI
Храмовый комплекс Прамбанан
Прамбанан, построенный в X в., является крупнейшим в Индонезии храмовым комплексом, посвященным богу Шиве. Над центром верхней из трех концентрических платформ возвышаются три храма, украшенные каменными рельефами на темы эпоса «Рамаяна», посвященные трем великим индийским божествам (Шива, Вишну и Брахма), и три храма – служащим им животным.
source: UNESCO/ERI
Conjunto de Prambanan
Construido en el siglo X, este conjunto monumental es el más grande de los dedicados al culto de Siva en Indonesia. En medio del último de los recintos cuadrados concéntricos se alzan tres templos consagrados a cada una de las deidades principales del hinduismo: Siva, Visnú y Brahma. Estos santuarios están ornamentados con relieves ilustrativos de la epopeya del Ramayana. Junto a ellos se alzan otros tres templos dedicados a los animales que sirven de montura a esos dioses
source: UNESCO/ERI
source: NFUAJ
Prambanan tempelcomplex
Het Prambanan tempelcomplex, gebouwd in de 10e eeuw, is het grootste tempelcomplex gewijd aan Shiva in Indonesië. Het bestaat uit de Prambanan tempel (ook wel Loro Jonggrang), Sewu Tempel, Bubrah Tempel en Lumbung Temple. Drie tempels zijn versierd met reliëfs ter illustratie van het epos van de Ramayana en gewijd aan de drie grote hindoe-goden (Shiva, Vishnu en Brahma). De Prambanan tempel zelf bestaat uit 240 tempels. De tempels en hun bijgebouwen vormen samen het Prambanan Archeologisch park, gebouwd tijdens de hoogtijdagen van de machtige dynastie Sailendra in Java, in de 8e eeuw na Christus.
Source: unesco.nl
Outstanding Universal Value
Brief synthesis
Prambanan Temple Compounds consist of Prambanan Temple (also called Loro Jonggrang), Sewu Temple, Bubrah Temple and Lumbung Temple. Prambanan Temple itself is a complex consisting of 240 temples. All the mentioned temples form the Prambanan Archaeological Park and were built during the heyday of Sailendra's powerful dynasty in Java in the 8th century AD. These compounds are located on the border between the two provinces of Yogyakarta and Central Java on Java Island.
While Loro Jonggrang, dating from the 9th century, is a brilliant example of Hindu religious bas-reliefs, Sewu, with its four pairs of Dwarapala giant statues, is Indonesia's largest Buddhist complex including the temples of Lumbung, Bubrah and Asu (Gana temple). The Hindu temples are decorated with reliefs illustrating the Indonesian version of the Ramayana epic which are masterpieces of stone carvings. These are surrounded by hundreds of shrines that have been arranged in three parts showing high levels of stone building technology and architecture from the 8th century AD in Java. With over 500 temples, Prambanan Temple Compounds represents not only an architectural and cultural treasure, but also a standing proof of past religious peaceful cohabitation.
Criterion (i): Prambanan Temple Compounds presents the grandiose culture of Siva art as a masterpiece of the classical period in Indonesia, and the region.
Criterion (iv): The property is an outstanding religious complex, characteristic of Siva expression of the 10th century.
Prambanan Temple Compounds comprises of two groups of buildings which includes Loro Jonggrang, Sewu complexes, Lumbung, Bubrah and Asu (Gana). The 508 stone temples of various shapes and sizes are either in a complete and preserved condition or have been retained as ruins. This site includes all elements necessary to express its exceptional significance and is well maintained. There are no threats of development or neglect; however the area is prone to natural threats such as earthquakes and volcanic eruptions.
Prambanan Temple Compounds contains the original structures that were built in the 9th century AD. The temples collapsed due to earthquake, volcanic eruption and a shift of political power in the early 11th century, and they were rediscovered in the 17th century. These compounds have never been displaced or changed. Restoration works have been conducted since 1918, both in original traditional method of interlocking stone and modern methods using concrete to strengthen the temple structure. Even though extensive restoration works have been done in the past and as recently as after the 2006 earthquake, great care has been taken to retain the authenticity of the structures.
Protection and management requirements
The property has been designated as a National Cultural Property in 1998 and the national law issued in 2010 also supports the protection and conservation of the property. Management of Prambanan Temple Compounds is accommodated in the Presidential Decree of 1992 that established the 77 ha that encompasses the property under central government ownership. This area is divided into two zones. The management of Zone 1 or the area within the boundary is conducted by the Ministry of Culture and Tourism under two different regional offices, namely the Archaeological Preservation Office of Yogyakarta and Central Java. The Borobudur, Prambanan and Ratu Boko Tourism Park Ltd. are responsible for Zone 2 which comprises the buffer zone. In order to implement standard operations for the safeguarding of the property, the government has established a regulation concerning national vital object area. All regulations have been well enforced and implemented.
In order to improve the management of the property, government issued the law in 2007 and government regulation of 2008 concerning national spatial planning which means that spatial planning in World Cultural Heritage area will be prioritized. Prambanan site has been established as one of the strategic national area which consists of Prambanan temple Compounds and others related temple remains. To ensure the long term safeguarding of the property, an integrated management and regulation that support preservation is needed.
The Action Plan of 2007 has been implemented with the involvement of the local community around the property. The welfare of the local community around the property that was affected by the earthquake of 27 May 2006, is now improving with the recovery of the usual economic activity and especially in the creative industry sector. The Siva temple has not been rehabilitated but research activities or technical studies of the Siva temple have been carried out in 2010 and 2011. The results have been discussed at national and international level with the conclusion that it is still necessary to study and research to determine the method of handling Siva Temple, including monitoring through seismograph study and crack meter periodically.
Long Description
Prambanan, named after the village, is the biggest temple complex in Java. It is actually a huge Hindu temple complex about 15 km north-east of Yogyakarta. Dedicated to the three great Hindu divinities, this temple with its decorated reliefs is an outstanding example of Siva art in Indonesia and the region.
It was built in the 9th century and designed as three concentric squares. In all there are 224 temples in the entire complex. The inner square contains 16 temples, the most significant being the 47 m high central Siva temple flanked to the north by the Brahma temple and to the south by the Vishnu temple. These three ancient masterpieces of Hindu architecture are locally referred to as the Prambanan Temple or Lorojonggrang Temple (Slender Maiden); the compound was deserted soon after it was completed, possibly owing to the eruption of nearby Mount Merapi.
A square platform is divided into concentric courts by square-plane walls. In the middle of the last enceinte stand the temples dedicated to the three great Hindu gods and three small temples dedicated to their animal vehicles (Bull for Siva, Eagle for Brahma and Swan for Vishnu). Other minor temples were located at the entrance gates or outside the central enceinte (four ensembles).
The Siva temple had four statues: located in the centre chamber is the Siva statue; in the north chamber stands the Dewi Durga Mahisasuramardhini statue; in the west chamber stands the Ganesya statue; and the south chamber contains the statue of Agastya. Inside the Brahma temple there is Brahma statue, and in the Vishnu temple there is the Vishnu statue. In the Vishnu temple is carved the story of Kresnayana, while the Brahma temple houses the continuous story of the Ramayana. The temples of Siva, Vishnu and Brahma are decorated with reliefs illustrating the Ramayana period (history of the Hindu hero Rama, written around 300).
The neighbouring Buddhist ensemble at Sewu comprises a central temple surrounded by a multitude of minor temples. Surprisingly, it shares many design attributes with the Hindu Loro Joggrang Temple, perhaps indicating the degree to which such temples also reflect state policies and control. Three other temples in ruins set between Sewu and Loro Joggrang complete the ensemble around Prambanan: Lumbuna, Burah and Asu.Source: UNESCO/CLT/WHC
News (1)
Events (1)
- International Experts' Meeting for Rehabilitation of Earthquake-affected Sites in Indonesia Mar 5, 2007-Mar 8, 2007


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Counterfeit Medicines: EU Adopts Protective Regulation, China Makes 263 Arrests
6:11 AM MDT | May 31, 2011 | Alex Scott
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Salt Lake City Lodging
SpringHill Suites Salt Lake City Airport
4955 Wiley Post Way
Salt Lake City, UT 84116
Best Available Rates for: Sep 05, 2015 - Sep 07, 2015 Change Dates
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SpringHill Suites Salt Lake City Airport
- Star Rating
At the SpringHill Suites Salt Lake City Airport hotel, you will enjoy our oversized king or queen suites with luxury bedding, 37" high definition television, free WiFi and chic d?cor. Located near the Salt Lake City International Airport, we offer a free 24-hour shuttle for added convenience. To start your day, enjoy a complimentary buffet or a Grab-N-Go breakfast and spend a cool evening in one of our suites, 25% larger than accommodations at other Salt Lake Airport hotels.
Amenities & Services
Property Amenities
- Business center
- Complimentary breakfast
- Conference room(s)
- Fitness center
- Common area laundry
- Indoor pool
- Wheelchair accessible property
In-Room Amenities
- Air conditioning
- Complimentary coffee
- Complimentary newspaper
- Wireless Internet (fees may apply)
- Microwave
- Refrigerator
- Television


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The following list of optional excursions are examples only for this vacation.
These optional excursions might or might not be available. Whether it's a special
dinner, a local show or a special behind-the-scenes glimpse into an historical site,
optional excursions are a wonderful way to enrich your vacation even further. Plus,
they give you flexibility. We include the must-see sites and experiences, and we
also understand that people take interest in different activities and may want to
craft a more personal vacation by hand-picking optional excursions that appeal to
Availability is subject to sufficient participation, weather conditions, seasonal
suitability, days of operation, group interests, and general feasibility for your
vacation. The approximate value listed gives you a good, general idea of what you
can expect to pay but may vary once you are on your vacation. Some information provided
might be in a foreign currency; to get an estimated price, use a currency converter for exchange rate information (pricing may vary at the time of booking).
Fairbanks Salmon Bake
Enjoy an all-you-can-eat Alaskan style meal as you dine on fire-grilled salmon, roasted prime rib, and cod direct from Alaska's icy waters. Served with Salad bar, Dessert, & Beverages. Catch the Golden Heart Revue show in the Palace Theater for an additional cost.
Arctic Circle Air Adventure
Fly above the Arctic! This thrilling tour allows a guest to experience the Brooks Range, cross the Arctic Circle and fly the wilderness airways of Alaska's Arctic. This fully narrated adventure also includes a visit to the community of Wiseman, views of the Trans-Alaska Pipeline and mighty Yukon River.
Denali Park Dinner Theater
Go back in time and join a group of unforgettable characters as they treat you to hilarious stories of living in Denali National Park featuring foot-stomping, knee-slapping music. The all-you-can-eat, family style meal will let you feast on Alaska salmon, BBQ ribs, potatoes, corn on the cob, baked beans, salad, sourdough rolls and tasty dessert.
Fixed Wing In Denali
Enjoy a 60-70 minute fixed wing flightseeing journey following the Alaska Range out to about one mile from Mt. McKinley (weather dependent). This is the flightseeing trip to do if you want to see North America's highest peak.
Fly Fish Denali
Experienced or beginner; you will fish for Arctic Grayling on lakes in the heart of the Alaska Range. The catch and release fly fishing package offers half day opportunities with no experience necessary. This personalized and fully outfitted trip includes gear, guide, equipment, and transportation. Fishing License additional.
Husky Homestead
Step back from the crowds and join an intimate group for a personal tour of the homestead kennel of two-time Iditarod Champion Jeff King. Meet champion sled dogs, visit with puppies and see summer training in action. Two and a half-hour narrated kennel tour.
Mt. Mckinley By Helicopter
Enjoy a helicopter thrill as you soar high above the land and view wildlife, alpine glaciers, the Alaska Range and Mt. McKinley from afar (weather dependent). This tour is highly recommendable for our "once in a lifetime" adventurers. $375 per person- 35 minutes Denali Excursion, $525 per person- 70 min Denali Glacier Landing Expedition $560 per person- 3.5hr Heli-Hiking Adventure.
Rafting The Nenana River
Each trip is approximately three hours with a total of two hours on the water. The scenic Wilderness Run is perfect for the family and travels 13 miles through the Alaska wilderness. Perfect for the beginning rafter! The Canyon Run is an exciting whitewater adventure with Class III and IV rapids. This is one ride where you might get wet!
Tundra Wilderness Tour
Go deep into Denali National Park and search for moose, bear, wolves, caribou and Dall sheep amongst a spectacular backdrop of valleys and mountains. This 6-8 hour tour is led by experienced driver guides, who provide narrative on the many critters that call Denali home. With tales of Mt. McKinley and breathtaking photographic opportunities, this is one tour to be sure and reserve early! Price includes a snack box meal and beverage.
Glacier and Wildlife Flightseeing
Explore Knik Glacier and Wildlife Tour on this 1.5 hour flightseeing tour. Departing from the world's busiest seaplane base, you'll fly over the expansive Knik Glacier rimmed with spectacular hanging glaciers. Sense the motion of the ice and see how it has shaped the land, then fly over the winding Knick Glacier Gorge. Spot mountain goats and moose and more! Opportunity to upgrade to 2 hr 15 min excursion with a lake landing (weather permitting) Cost: $283 per person for 1 1/2 hours; or $386 per person for 2 1/4 hours with Lake landing.
Resurrection Bay Wildlife Tour with Lunch at Fox Island
Experience Kenai Fjords National Park! Learn about the rich history of Resurrection Bay while viewing the jagged cliffs, seabirds, marine wildlife and alpine glaciers, including the magnificent Bear Glacier. The Resurrection Bay Wildlife Tour includes an exclusive visit to Fox Island for an all you can eat wild Alaskan salmon and prime rib.


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"True Grimes" in 'Style.com/Print.'
Photo: Nick Haymes/Courtesy of Style.com
The last edition of Style.com/Print saw Cara Delevingne working a striking lipstick-smudged mouth on its cover, and now the mag's returned with a slick new issue featuring another one of our favorites. This time it's Grimes, who shows off her fashion stuff in designer duds by Altuzarra and Jeremy Scott and fills the publication in on life when she's not on the road. Photographed in her home in Vancouver (literally, in her house!), this "True Grimes" spread stars the musician chilling on the cluttered counter and lounging in bed... with her teddy bear, no less. Proving that her endearing humility and effortless style is no act, Claire Boucher remarks to writer Jonathan Durbin that despite sitting front row at shows like Chanel last season, she's still sort of a fashion newbie. In fact, she says, "I had never read fashion magazines until I was in them." Wait, what?!


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Wall Charger for iPod®, iPhone®, & iPad®
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2006: Alonso cruises in crash-fest
After 10 years as the season-opening race, Melbourne hosted the third Grand Prix of 2006 following the Commonwealth Games, and it was worth the wait. Renault's 2005 World Champion Fernando Alonso took his maiden win in Australia in superb style, keeping his head while chaos reigned behind him.
Alonso's teammate, Italian Giancarlo Fisichella, stalled on the front row at the start, and the first of four Safety Cars came into play on lap one after Ferrari's Felipe Massa smashed into the Williams of Nico Rosberg. Mark Webber briefly led in the sister Williams during the first round of pit stops before a transmission failure put him out of the race a lap later, and there were red faces in the Ferrari garage when seven-time world champion Michael Schumacher crashed heavily at the last corner on lap 33.
The drama lasted until the final lap, when the engine in Jenson Button's BAR-Honda erupted as he came onto the start-finish straight for the last time.
Pole: Jenson Button (BAR-Honda) 1:25.229
1. Fernando Alonso (Renault)
2. Kimi Raikkonen (McLaren) +1.8secs
3. Ralf Schumacher (Toyota) +24.8secs
Fastest lap: Kimi Raikkonen (McLaren) 1:26.045 on lap 57
2007: Raikkonen wastes no time
Michael Schumacher's name features prominently in most categories in the Ferrari record book, but Kimi Raikkonen did something the great German never could by winning his first race for the famous Italian marque. The Finn took pole and then was rarely troubled in the race, with all eyes quickly gravitating towards the stunning debut of McLaren's Lewis Hamilton.
The Brit made his mark as early as the first corner when he scythed past teammate Fernando Alonso, and while Alonso overtook him in the pit stops later in the race, Hamilton's third place was the best result for a debutant since Jacques Villeneuve finished second in Australia in 1996. Felipe Massa's charge from last on the grid to sixth following a crash in qualifying was noteworthy, while Mark Webber's first race for Red Bull was blighted by a stuck throttle; the Australian finished a disconsolate 13th.
Pole: Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari) 1:26.644
1. Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari)
2. Fernando Alonso (McLaren) +7.242secs
3. Lewis Hamilton (McLaren) +18.595secs
Fastest lap: Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari) 1:25.235 on lap 41
2008: Heat no hindrance for Hamilton
The temperature was a scorching 37 degrees at race start, but Lewis Hamilton kept his cool with a dominant lights-to-flag victory in the first race of what was to be his championship-winning season. The race had just seven finishers, the fewest in a Grand Prix for 12 years, and three separate accidents on the first lap saw five retirements, one of them being Mark Webber.
Hamilton simply drove away from the rest, opening up an 11secs lead before the first round of pit stops, and regrouped after a late safety car period following Timo Glock's big shunt in the Toyota at Turn 12 to win by over five seconds from BMW-Sauber's Nick Heidfeld. Nico Rosberg took his first career podium for Williams, while Rubens Barrichello's first chance of a points finish in any race since 2006 evaporated when the Honda driver was disqualified for running the red light at the pit lane exit.
Pole: Lewis Hamilton (McLaren) 1:26.714
1. Lewis Hamilton (McLaren)
2. Nick Heidfeld (BMW-Sauber) +5.478secs
3. Nico Rosberg (Williams) +8.163secs
Fastest lap: Heikki Kovalainen (McLaren) 1:27.418 on lap 43
2009: Brawn brains the rest
The writing was on the wall after pre-season testing in Europe, when the Brawn GP team, born from the ashes of Honda's withdrawal from F1, used its controversial double diffuser to annihilate the opposition. Not much changed when the teams opened the 2009 season on the other side of the world. Jenson Button and Rubens Barrichello qualified on the front row before recording the first 1-2 finish by a new team in its debut race since Mercedes-Benz won the French Grand Prix in 1954.
Button sailed to a comfortable win, but Barrichello's afternoon was more fraught as he botched the start and ran into the back of Red Bull's Mark Webber at the first corner, ruining the Australian's race. Barrichello was fourth with three laps remaining when Webber's teammate Sebastian Vettel and BMW-Sauber's Robert Kubica clashed while fighting over second place, sending Kubica into retirement and leaving Vettel to limp home in 14th.
The race finished under the safety car, with Jarno Trulli securing an extraordinary podium for Toyota after starting from the pit lane.
Pole: Jenson Button (Brawn GP) 1:26.202
1. Jenson Button (Brawn GP)
2. Rubens Barrichello (Brawn GP) +0.807secs
3. Jarno Trulli (Toyota) +1.604secs
Fastest lap: Nico Rosberg (Williams) 1:27.706 on lap 48
2010: Button backs up as Bulls falter
Red Bull came to Albert Park with the fastest car in the field, locked out the front row in qualifying, and then left Australia with just two measly points to show for their dominant pace. Sebastian Vettel led Mark Webber in an ominous display by the Red Bull duo on Saturday, but a Sunday afternoon rain shower turned the race upside down.
Vettel looked on course to break his run of outs in Australia before a problem with the left front wheel pitched the German into the gravel at Turn 12 on lap 26, while Webber's slow start and compromised pit stop strategy saw him bottled up in the midfield before a late-race passing attempt on Lewis Hamilton went awry, leaving the Australian to finish a disappointing ninth.
The changeable conditions caught many drivers out, but Jenson Button made the right call at the right time, changing to dry-weather tyres as the rain eased and preserving them brilliantly to make it back-to-back wins in Melbourne. Renault's Robert Kubica was a superb second, while Ferrari's Felipe Massa stood on the Albert Park podium for the first time.
Pole: Sebastian Vettel (Red Bull Racing) 1:23.919
1. Jenson Button (McLaren)
2. Robert Kubica (Renault) +12.034secs
3. Felipe Massa (Ferrari) +14.488secs
Fastest lap: Mark Webber (Red Bull Racing) 1:28.358 on lap 47


text:
Dance into Fall with two delicious cocktails. Photography courtesy of Grey Goose.
Cocktails & Spirits
Category Main Page
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Articles & Reviews Of Foods From A To Z
October 2009
While you're contemplating goodies for Trick-or-Treating or a special Thanksgiving menu, how about a grown-up treat? Grey Goose vodka has mixed up two special cocktails for deserving hosts, hostesses and their guests.
Fall Cocktail Menu
There's no leaf, but plenty of fizz as pear, pumpkin and an apple chip unite in a true expression of fall.
Ingredients Per Cocktail
If you like pumpkin, mix up a Falling Leaf Fizz. The beautiful orange color is perfect for Fall.
The only storm will be created by guests, if you run out of Stormy Cider!
Recipes courtesy of Grey Goose. All other materials © copyright 2005-
Lifestyle Direct, Inc. All rights reserved. Images are the copyright of their respective owners.


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- Yogesh Gupta
- Nashik Maharashtra
- India
Reservoir Engineer, Shell International E&P
This conversation is closed.
Donation or Change?
There are two ways to tackle CO2 emissions 1) Awareness 2) Economics
1) I have chosen awareness because there is a lot of strength in this solution if it comes from the common man's heart and mind. This is also behavior related hence long term solution. Just like defensive driving.
2) Economic solution is hard to implement cause our behavior does not change, but ways to get around economic enforcement increases. (tax evasion, black market, etc)
Full blog at:
Dec 14 2012: I think awareness and focus on behavioural and attitudinal change would be more impactful. This will in turn encourage positive forms in all sections of the society and all sectors of the economy.Dec 14 2012: Thanks for your comments.Yes its true that not only vehicles but every high energy consuming product needs to be taxed at the consumer level, not the producer level.
But awareness is most likely a permanent solution, since the mass population of developing countries would like to replicate the west in future.Dec 14 2012: I think the best solution to tackle emission of CO2 is Awareness.
Though government impose heavy tax duties on vehicles that are imported from other countries and what ever the price of it may be people are ready to pay for it.They has been growth in consumption rate and it has been increasing year on year.
India is among top 10 largest production hub for automotive and its going to be the world's largest automotive industry by 2016.In such a scenario the emission of CO2 will increase year on year.Awareness is one of the best solution in order to make people aware of it and try to reduce the consumption of it.
Automotive is not the only one which results in emission of CO2, they are different sources which even pay path for it.
Economic solution does even play a active role for it but at the end all that matters is to improve the economic stability of the country which in return act as a contradicting factor.Dec 13 2012: Yes! its possible for a developed nation to punish manufacturers.. but for developing nation governments its difficult.
(Recently when the Indian government reduced the subsidy on fuels and LPG, the government was criticized a lot. This puts the ruling party under pressure as the elections are coming in 2014.
I think it is time that high energy consuming citizens should be also liable to pay more. Together with economic pressure and awareness, the target of CO2 emissions reduction can be achieved. This also gives time for other source of energy to kick in.
Although, it is better to change habits now.. because if all the population of india and china start living like the west right now, we will be out of time in days..
Dec 13 2012: "Yes! its possible for a developed nation to punish manufacturers.. but for developing nation governments its difficult."
International cooperation is key: governments should not allow corporate blackmailing (threats to move to another country) because this creates a race to the bottom. Countries should stand together so that corporations who don't want to improve have nowhere to move to. The same holds for wages, working conditions, pollution standards and taxes.
"(Recently when the Indian government reduced the subsidy on fuels and LPG, the government was criticized a lot. This puts the ruling party under pressure as the elections are coming in 2014.
I think it is time that high energy consuming citizens should be also liable to pay more."
The true costs of energy use should indeed be visible to society but I'm not sure letting the poorest of the poor pay extra is the way to go, unless they're compensated another way so they have a choice between having more money and having the same amount of money instead of a choice between having the same amount of money and having less money.
"Although, it is better to change habits now.. because if all the population of india and china start living like the west right now, we will be out of time in days..."
50 years from now that shouldn't be a problem because of technology, at least if the rich countries grow slower than the poor ones (which does seem to be happening), and the world goes green, but in the meantime there are going to be a lot of catastrophes and conflicts and we have to ensure economic growth does not get usurped by the global rich (millionaires and billionaires).Dec 13 2012: Hello John,
Lets take an example of a Chevrolet built in US and exported to China for use.
Well if we start counting the energy spent on manufacturing Chevrolet in US and allocate it to China, then china will need to take more measures to reduce its CO2 emission responsibility. One measure automatically the government would have to take is, to put economic liability on citizens demanding such high energy consuming goods by taxes, etc. People who live in environmentally friendly way, do not have to worry. This would create a mass reduction in imports and also mass reduction is emissions, since demands goes down.
If we now continue to blame US for producing high energy Chevrolet, the person in China will continue to have its demands and US government cannot tax its own companies for exporting. Hence the problem of emission is not tackled.
Dec 13 2012: I see what you mean, however the US, in your example, can have regulations that punish manufacturers who build gas guzzling Chevrolets, regardless of who the car will be sold to in the end.
W. Ying
Dec 13 2012: I choose "Awareness".
- 0
It is because our life goal is to keep our DNA alive rather than be consumerists or CO2-emitters.
The former needs only about 10% CO2-emission of the latter does. Thus, we can cut CO2-emission about 90% easily.
(For details, see 1st article, points 1-3, 14, at https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D&id=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D%21283&sc=documents)Dec 12 2012: "Emissions today are counted as energy consumed in the country itself and hence defines its responsibilities. But when developed nations outsource work to developing nations for goods and services, the energy that is burnt in developing nations is not counted, though goods and services are used in developed nations."
Yes, that's true: CO2 emission from a factory in China buildings toys for Canada is counted as Chinese emission, not Canadian emission (the opposite, France growing food for Libya, also exists). However, the relative growth of Asian economies compared to those in the West and the tangible emission reductions in the West (cleaner cars for example) are not negligible: overall the Asian economies really have been emitting more CO2 (so has the US, but not Europe). Of course this was to be expected and it's really CO2 emission per capita (that's still much lower in Asia than in the West) that we should look at.