text:
- Andres Aullet
- Cary, NC
- United States
This conversation is closed.
Trickle down vs. trickle up
The more businesses are left alone to do what they do best (sell a product or service), free from regulations, external influences and excessive taxation, the better they will be.
Loans and extra profits can be then used for more business creation and business growth, which in return drive more economic prosperity for investors, and that also "trickles down" to workers (as jobs and better salaries) and consumers (as lower prices) and everybody benefits in the end.
Or so the story goes.
Although the theory says that when investors gets richer, they use this extra wealth to promote more businesses, and in the process creating more jobs and driving prices down through specialization; there are many examples where the extra wealth is either just accumulated, or it is invested in ways that do not create jobs nor drive prices down.
Would things work in reverse?
What if individuals rather than businesses were the recipients of loans (micro), left alone to do what they do best (which i contend is creativity), as free from regulations, external influences and excessive taxation as possible.
They would then require raw materials and more people to put their ideas into action, they would need products and services offered by bigger businesses. In the end, everybody would benefit and the economic prosperity would trickle up
Obviously, this is an idealization.
But, could we benefit from a balance of both approaches?
Nov 3 2012: The free market is indeed free. It's free of responsibility, accountability and liability. It's free of giving any value to natural resources, ecosystem services and all of the 'commons' we share living on this once garden planet. This disconnect is getting bigger every year with the eventually outcome of inter-generational civil war, as our children and grand children understand how selfish we have been. We need new analysis that understands these new dynamics, not looking backwards into the rear view mirror. Wake up...
Nov 3 2012: The truth is timeless. If you look into it will be brand new to you.Nov 3 2012: Hi Craig,
Many discussions here on ted quickly fall into a believers of free market vs. non believers of free market. I have rarely seen people switch sides or give up on convictions.
Problem with many of these discussions are that they are mostly philosophical. Economics is considered a science, but (and I will be considered blasphemous here), i do not see it nearly in the same category as mathematics, physics or chemistry. I see economics more sided towards philosophy than science
I am not sure if it is a problem of new or old. I don't agree with people who try to dismiss something because it has been tried before.
But i agree with you. The commons is something that worked for thousands of years before capitalism (look at the history of the native americans), and was successful for a period much longer than market economy has been in in practice. So it is false to try to dismiss the commons as tried but unsuccessful. These new dynamics you propose would actually involve going back to the past. Just a bit more distant past.
Whether pure free market works or not, i do not know yet, as i have not seen it at work (not without external influences). And i am not optimistic that it can be tried anywhere. So even though the theory is well developed, it still remains to be confirmed
However, both you and I live in some sort of market economy, and money is used, at least for now, to facilitate transactions between individuals.
By trickle down or trickle up I am trying to focus on how money would flow if investment were to be made differently (in individuals and micro businesses rather than big businesses)
I realize it is a mental exercise, but I am trying to use it to highlight the way money actually flows in the type of economy we have today, and maybe find ways to improve it
Nov 3 2012: It is a lot more science than art. The art part might stem from ignorance of the subject?
Nov 3 2012: Hi Pat,
Interesting concept. I was thinking philosophy and not art.
I must agree with you, economics is further from art than it is from science, but so is psychology, and yet i consider psychology easier to test scientifically than economics (based on ease of repeatability)
Mind you that i don't consider art (or philosophy for that matter) as deriving from ignorance. I value both and as a musician, i am well aware of the value art brings into my life. I never considered economics would have much related to an art, but for those who do (even if it is in the sense of considering it some kind of magic and obscure art), i think i get your point about ignorance and concur
I lack a formal education in economics, but i do have a formal education in physics. And the way one tests science in physics is rarely seen in the field of economy.
That was the basis of my assessment of economics as more related to philosophy than scienceNov 3 2012: My mistake.
Keeping with the art analogy though, both are an exercise in communication. Art through the medium of stories, painting, movies, etc. The economy through the medium of exchange and money. Either way they fulfill the communication through understanding in the case of art or exchange in the case of the economy. With the artist his goal is to hear the observer say oh I get it. With the seller it is yes I want to buy that. Does that make sense?
The reality is that the economy has predictable elements to it. E.G. the government makes a lot of money available for housing the price of housing goes up. The government makes a lot of money available for education the price of education goes up. The government subsidizes ethanol the price of corn goes up. The government prints money the value of money goes down. The government set the interest rates lower than the market indicates money becomes more plentiful. The government lowers the money supply you have deflation for 15 years. Do you see a pattern?
It is less predictable when you look at the human element. By definition money requires confidence. When the confidence is lowered so is the value.Nov 3 2012: Not philosophy...psychology. Economics is based on belief and fear underlying processes that we have developed over the centuries to keep everything running.
A free market is a market free from control. This is an acknowlegment that the market, even a simple one, is too complex to be completely controlled. When it is controlled, underlying fears that the processes of the market can't be trusted and it all collapses.
It's not a science in my opinion because when the 2007 collapse started, all the technical predictors suddenly disapeared after realizing that their predictions were as accurate as horoscope predictions and based on a science as real as alchemy.Nov 4 2012: About the science of economics, I'll quote from http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Austrian_School
Austrian School economists advocate strict adherence to methodological individualism – analyzing human action from the perspective of individual agents.[25] Proponents of this method, praxeology, argue that the only means of arriving at a valid economic theory is to derive it logically from basic principles of human action. Proponents of this method hold that it allows for the discovery of fundamental economic laws valid for all human action. Alongside praxeology, the school has traditionally advocated an interpretive approach to history to address specific historical events.
Austrian economists reject empirical statistical methods as tools applicable to economics, saying that while it is appropriate in the natural sciences where causal factors can be isolated in laboratory conditions, the actions of human beings are far too complex for this "numerical" treatment as passive non-adaptive subjects. Instead one should isolate the logical processes of human action. Von Mises called this discipline "praxeology" – a term he adapted from Alfred Espinas (but which had been in use by others).[26]
The Austrian praxeological method is based on the heavy use of logical deduction from what they assert to be undeniable, self-evident axioms or irrefutable facts about human existence. The primary axiom from which Austrian economists deduce further certain conclusions is the action axiom, which holds that humans take conscious action toward chosen goals.[27]
Of course, you'll have to follow the real literature if you want anything more than the samplers I can provide in TED chats.
Nov 6 2012: Hi John,
indeed the mises.org has a lot of great information on the free market. I have spent many an afternoon reading there.
However, I have also read the work of Kahneman and Tversky regarding the process of decision under uncertainty, cognitive biases, framing and anchoring effects. I have also followed the work of Dan Ariely in behavioral economics.
There seems to be strong evidence against the theory that people decide and act as individual rational agents.
How does this fact change the standard free market theory? Has anybody adjusted for it?
In addition to the not-so-rational behavior of individuals, I was discussing with Bob (below) two other open questions i still have regarding the free market theory: 1) what about human survival in the thousands of years before money was invented?, and where are the commons in the theory? 2) what about the fact that demand can be easily altered by an agent with enough capital or access to resources? what does that say to the demand based value?
I'll be glad to read specific docs at mises.org if you have suggestions, i am always up for learning something new
cheersNov 6 2012: Mises has written quite a bit about rationality and irrationality, and about uncertainty -- all in his "Human Action". Try the subsections called "Rationality and Irrationality; Subjectivism and Objectivity of Praxeological Research" and chapter 6, "Uncertainty".
Completely unrelated to Mises, the psychologist, Carl Rogers said "Man's behavior is exquisitely rational, moving with subtle and ordered complexity toward the goals his organism is endeavoring to achieve. The tragedy for most of us is that our defenses keep us from being aware of this rationality, so that consciously we are moving in one direction, while organismically we are moving in another."
Is there anything specific by Kahneman, Tversky or Ariely that you could refer me to?
Nov 6 2012: Thank you for the pointers John, i'll be doing my homework
For Kahneman/Tversky you can find some starting info in wikipedia:
There is also an excellent book i am still reading by Kahneman called Thinking Fast Thinking Slow which contains a lot of his research way beyond prospect theory
As for Dan Ariely, you can start here:
Or if interested, his book Predictably Irrational talks in depth about his research in decision making
cheersNov 6 2012: some time ago ariely himself appeared in one of the TED conversations. he specifically asked why we, free market guys, believe that with all that weird things going on in the human mind, people can make right choices. my answer was that in a democratic setting, if 51% of people are wrong, we will do the wrong thing. in the free market, if 1% of people want to do the right thing, they can, and if it works, others will copy it. alas, he didn't reply to that, probably had better things to do.
so my take on that: i love what he is doing, but it is in fact in favor of free markets. the free market has a strong correcting effect, as it provides immediate feedback. on the other hand, complex systems like the state distances bad decisions from their consequences, and therefore lack this corrective force.
Nov 6 2012: I agree with you Krisztian, in the sense that there are indeed self correcting forces in the free market. I guess the difference is that i think those correcting forces are not all pervasive.
I do criticize the free markets, but that does not mean i think the theory is completely wrong or should be just discarded. Only today (thanks to John) i learned about what Mises wrote on rationality and irrationality. I do think that a comprehensive free market theory should take into account behavioral economics as well, specially when behavioral economics can make specific predictions and be tested systematically
You say that in the free market if 1% of people want to do the right thing they can, but i propose that even for that 1%, in order to do the right thing they need to absorb a fair amount of information and to be aware of their own decision making bias (if by doing the right thing we mean a making a decision that will maximize their gain)
Not saying it is impossible. You, for example, know much more about how the market works, and you sound quite rational. So i can imagine that you would have less trouble being in that 1% doing the right thing. But I cannot say the same about every actor participating in the economic system.
And even being careful enough, and compensating for incomplete information, etc, we cannot avoid but to receive some of the economic effects of decisions by other people not being so rational
I fully agree that distance decreases the likelihood of self-correcting mechanisms (hey i am for government as small as it can possibly be!)
cheersNov 6 2012: @Krisztián Pintér: "if 51% of people are wrong, we will [all] do the wrong thing" is an excellent reply to Ariely! But IMO, it only works against Ariely and his sympathizers because they seem to have fallen into the trap of believing that:
1. Irrationality is ubiquitous.
2. Therefore irrationality is the rule, rather than the exception.
3. Except, mysteriously, in governments. (the fault that you pointed out)
I think Ariely has to put in a lot more work to even make 1. convincing. (This is my understanding based on just his talks -- I haven't read his research papers.)Nov 6 2012: "I do think that a comprehensive free market theory should take into account behavioral economics as well"
and i think it should not. just as it should not take personal values into account. economics takes people's preferences and choices as granted. we don't need to further examine that, it is enough to say that people do pursue their own happiness, so some of their actions are aimed at those. that is all we need.
"but i propose that even for that 1%, in order to do the right thing they need to absorb a fair amount of information"
first: no they don't have to. people just act differently, and some of them randomly does the thing that works. evolution does this, and it works. second: no doubt understanding is better than random chance. some people did the research, and acquired the necessary information to make the right choice. that is enough. we don't need to appoint such people. we just let them do their stuff, and see what works.
it does not matter of other people don't do the right thing. they use their own stuff, so they only can ruin that. the loss will tell them that they should change tactics.
and one more note: there is that thing called the "nirvana fallacy". it is an error dismissing an idea for it is not perfect. the alternative is not perfect either. we don't need perfect solutions, we need the best solution. and it is not too hard to show that freedom is a better solution than a state. after all, all the problems individuals face, the state also faces. what makes them less susceptible to errors? nothing. every organization is susceptible for errors. success lies in the correction mechanisms, not in fallibility.
Nov 6 2012: One of the biggest issues i see with free market theory is a particular instance people call "the corrective forces or the market", referring to the way stock markets work today
Maybe if individuals bought their own stock, making personal gains and taking personal risks, i would give the idea of this exchange of stock a bit more credit as a corrective force. But the fact is, most exchanges in wall street are subject to human factors: fears, rumors, conflict between benefiting one customer over another (I think Dan Ariely is onto something here). And the effects of brokers' decisions usually "trickle down" to third parties
Even if individuals were the sole players in the stock market, we would still have to account for the fact that our brain is incapable of having an intuition about small vs large probabilities, that is correct enough to trade stock successfully. So even individuals would fail to make rational decisions most of the time
There is little we can do to change our brain physiology, evolution does not work that fast
On people's preferences, I disagree with you. I can consider the idealization of individuals as having preferences and choices granted, but i know it is a mental exercise, useful for the theory to remain solid. But at the end of the day, one must step back from the idealization (just as we must step back and see nirvana for what it is, not a destination but a useful pointer), and accept that humans are not such ideal creatures. And i do see the imperative of further examine it
As I have said, i am not for dismissing free market theory just because it is not perfect. i am trying to see it as a scientific theory (this, too an idealization) and follow the same example i've seen thousands of times in the history of science: when facts remain unexplained by a theory, it is not always necessary to discard it, but to incorporate it into a bigger, more general theory
As to freedom vs state, i still fail to see it black and white
cheersNov 6 2012: " But the fact is, most exchanges in wall street are subject to human factors: fears, rumors"
we can elaborate it all day long, but the bottom line is the same: those that sell or buy out of fear or misconception, will lose money. either they mend their ways, or lose everything. at the end, irrational elements will be eliminated from the marketplace. we can dig deeper how to avoid such traps, but we don't have to. just with the trial and error, we will find the right people for the job.
another question would be the proposed solution to that "problem". how would a state fix this? how would laws fix this? what would make the legislator free of such influences? why would any other solution based on people any better?
"I can consider the idealization of individuals as having preferences and choices granted"
it is not what i have said. i said this is granted from the POV of economics. of course it is a forever changing input, but we should not care. there is a reason why we should not care. the reason is we can't override what people want according to what is "good". it is an evil way of thinking. the only moral way to change what people want is through arguments. but then, if we did that, people just have a new set of values, and economics should not care about the reason, it is enough to deal with the new situation. whatever people want, the economy can provide.
" i am trying to see it as a scientific theory"
free market is not a theory. it is an artificial construct. we claim that it is the best arrangement for humans to live in. that claim is based on theories, namely economics and ethics. but in fact we can argue from purely ethical standpoint too. so i'm not sure what you are talking about here.Nov 6 2012: Thanks for the links. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I'll confess that I had come up with the idea behind Prospect Theory by myself, a few years ago. :-) But, I do not mean to imply that I had worked out all its repercussions and done existential research that Kahneman and Tversky might have done.
The reason I bring it up is to explain that I had already factored this into my understanding of economics, but this seemed to have no bearing at all to whether or not free markets are good. Of course, if someone else has done an analysis, I'm open to reading it.
However, Prospect Theory has a good deal to say about the voting system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo (This video does not make the connection explicit, but keep it in mind as you watch the video.)
I just finished watching Ariely's talk, "Are we in control of our own decisions?". The message it brought me was "question your choices, especially your defaults". Another thing it highlighted was that marketers (of subscriptions to The Economist, in this case) had already figured out what psychologists are only discovering now. :-)
All this is fine... I can see that these things may influence /some/ things: like my choice of shirts to buy, or brand cooking oil I use. It seems to have had no effect at all on my professional life. When I built robots, for example, it was always things like technical suitability, availability, cost, existing tool-set, and other hard facts. Companies did send marketing material, like the coolest new voltage regulators, ADCs, flash memories, etc., but none of it ever swayed me or any other engineer I have worked with. I must add that I had complete authority on what could go into my systems. Similar hard-factors applied when interviewing people to work on my teams, etc.
Ariely's message seems to have been pointless in my professional life. But I have not read his book. Since you have, I ask you: can you see that kind of irrationality in your own professional life?
Nov 7 2012: it is of key importance to mention that all these experiments always have mixed results. we marvel at the 80% or 55% that make weird decisions. it is a ritual now among many people to recite such result like some mantra. but nobody seems to talk about the 20% or the 45% that did not fall for the trap. we don't hear about it. everybody knows about these experiments, but let me ask a few questions about those rational percentage.
1. some people always rational, or many people are rational sometimes?
2. what circumstances help or hinder rationality?
3. what are the personality traits, gender, age, profession distribution of rational people?
where is the data on that?
John Smith
Nov 3 2012: "The free market is indeed free. It's free of responsibility, accountability and liability. It's free of giving any value to natural resources, ecosystem services and all of the 'commons' we share living on this once garden planet."
- +1
Exactly, as long as the rich can retreat to gated communities at locations of their choosing they will not be concerned with what happens to the rest of the planet.
scott lee
Nov 6 2012: It takes money to make money, and for that reason wealth tends to centralize. Today there is unprecedented centralization of wealth and the so called "trickle down effect" is nowhere to be seen. Middle class incomes have stagnated for the past few decades.
- +1
There are always exceptions, of course, political forces and disruptive technologies can also change demographics of wealth. Usually, though, things don't go as planned and everybody becomes an expert in hindsight.
I believe the phrase "trickle down effect" is a PR term to justify tax cuts to the wealthy that are a tough sell to many voters.Nov 3 2012: wealth should not trickle anywhere, it should be in the hands of those that created it. we simply should stop thinking about how other people spend their money. i don't care what the goal is, balance, fairness, great society ... if you believe the world would be better if some people used their property in a certain way, tell them. convince them. but do not speculate on how should "we" use their money.
Nov 3 2012: Hi Krisztian (and please forgive i have not figured out an easy way to bring up accents in this keyboard to spell your name correctly)
Several times in the past we have talked and i must say that i have learned quite a lot from those exchanges.
In principle, I agree with your first statement, yet i don't think you and agree in who is it that creates wealth. Example: when someone misses a monthly payment on a loan, financial charges (in addition to interest) are created and the money supply grows yet a bit more, is that creating wealth? Or exchange rate speculation. I see wealth creation when investment drives new and better products and services, and I see both the investor and the people inventing and improving these are wealth creators. Who are the creators for you?
You ask me not to speculate how should money be used. Yet, you and I have agreed that there is no country in this world that runs a pure free market economy, so in a sense when you explain what free market theory calls for, you are also speaking about how money should be used
I am trying to talk about how money IS used, and highlight what i see wrong there. I do not think that we should simply accept that the way money IS used arguing that if we let it follow some invisible rules, a common good will be ensured. If at all, that would require (assuming the theory were indeed correct) that pure free market was allowed to function. But as i have said before, I do not recall any country that runs a pure free market economy.
So I guess I am doing here what you suggest, I believe the world would be better if some people used property in a certain way, and i am telling so. But isn't the first step to recognize how money is actually used today? and to share that information too?
Trickle down and trickle up are just generalizations that differ only slighlytly. In one wealth creators are assumed to be a wealthy few, in the other wealth creators are assumed to be the average individuals
Nov 3 2012: "and the money supply grows yet a bit more, is that creating wealth?"
certainly not, and it is one of the biggest problem of today. our money supply is increasing, and we overlook the question: who gets the extra money? banks get it and the state get it. we should put an end to it the sooner the better.
" Or exchange rate speculation"
this is a whole other issue. exchange rate speculation is in fact a forecast/appraisal job, which is extremely important. for example, what will be the exchange rate of gold vs GE bonds a year from now. to know this, you need to evaluate GE's business strategies. of course, if you mean currency rates only, it creates nothing, it is just trying to figure out how much government will dilute their money. it is important as long as they do, but it is more like a defense against destruction than creating anything.
" Who are the creators for you?"
anyone who has an idea that works. that is measured by profit, IF we are in free cooperation setting. any two persons come together and decide to exchange some products or services create wealth. that is the essence of a free market. we need to understand that it is easy to make someone better off by robbing someone else and handing out the loot to our preferred class. this is not creation. this is predation. only voluntary interactions create wealth.
"So I guess I am doing here what you suggest,"
yes, but one has to be vigilant. it always starts like this. first we agree that some behavior is good. then we proceed forward, and claim that not doing the right thing is evil, and we need to enforce good behavior. similar arguments are considered disgusting or evil. how about i argue that donorship is good, therefore it is a good idea to every now and then kill someone and use his organs to save many lives. this is horrible. but proposing that we need to tax the rich and give to the poor is okay. why? it is the same thing.Nov 3 2012: "wealth should not trickle anywhere, it should be in the hands of those that created it."
You mean the people who do actual work, like workers, farmers, engineers, scientists, sales people, etc... Well, for once we agree Krisztian.
Nov 4 2012: workers, farmers, engineers, scientists, sales people, marketing managers, brokers, bankers, venture capitalists, and everyone that works under the arrangement of voluntary cooperation.Nov 10 2012: P-l-e-a-s-e ....let the good professor explain "TRICKLE-DOWN-ECONOMICS" to you
...since I know that it is a complex, difficult and often misunderstood term.
After all, it's things like this that keep Economics Professors like me in business, no?
I AM sorry that I left my graphs at home, but here goes, anyway:
Well, basically ,there are two parts to this beautiful , time-tested theory.
The FIRST part is the "TRICK"le part.
You MUST realize, you must understand, and you must emphasize that this is ALL a trick.
The rich are the "tricksters, and you my poor friends, are the "trick-ees".
Do I make myself clear? Good, then we'll go on to the second part.
The SECOND part, dear students of the world, is the crucial "Trickle-DOWN" part.
That, my friend, simply means that the super-rich URINATE all over the rest of us
...and then laugh all the way to their off-shore banks and tax-shelters.
I hope that I have been helpful. Until next time -ask me anything-!
- Professor America
P.S. Bottom lone: the only acceptable looters are the super-rich.
Anybody else is subject to arrest.
Nov 10 2012: you probably wanted to post that comment on youtubeNov 7 2012: Trickle up. When corporations and governments, pay workers better, workers immediately spend the money buying products, which increases overall corporate profits in the system. Thus, employers, should be competing to offer proud confident people the best pay available for their labor, instead of competing to find the most desperate people, willing to work cheaply.
However, a company who pays well, for the same quality labor, cannot compete in the short term on price, with a company that does not, and that is where government can play a role in encouraging business to race to the top, rather than the bottom. The less money the human race thinks an hour of labor is worth, the less money corporations have the potential to make.Nov 6 2012: Andres, Karl Marx put the value of the product in the craftsman. Adam Smith put the value of the product in the supply and demand of a free market. In a manner of speaking Marx was a bottom up and Smith a top down thinker. Now there is a common problem. Investors. Call it a loan or whatever you desire, but it is an investment. If there is "confidence" that the product has a market and the market has the resources to support the product then a deal is struck by either banks or venture capitalists.
In the bottom up theory I find that management is frowned upon and taking from the workers/craftsmen thus the organization stops at the lowest level ... product development.
In the other model the organization includes the necessary craftsment but also the suppliers, sales, transportation, and other departments that would allow for growth. That growth is called profit and is used to pay the investors, the workers, and for expansion.
Marx would do great for a sculpturer who could manage a small business with limited needs and selective customers. Financing would be enough for a block of marble and a small advancement. In almost every other venture it would fail at the initial stages. Even unions who hate management have managers at every level and a glut of executives. Now thats funny I don't care who you are ... that there is funny.
Wealth has always been concentrated. Royality married royality ... keeping it in the family. Rich married rich .... keeping it in the family .... The wealth is probally better distributed worldwide than ever before. Example: How many millionaires is there today in China, Russia, Europe, all of these places had supreme rulers and families owned the country call dynasties, czars, imperial families, etc ... that was concentration of wealth.
The common man is richer that ever before and bitching loudly about it. In the 1800's you could name the US rich ... not today. Progress ... you bet.
All the best. Bob.
Nov 6 2012: Ah, i replied below and i did not see your most recent post Bob... But seems like the two posts are somewhat related.
First a clarification, while it is true that Adam Smith's theory aligns more with trickle down and Karl Marx's with trickle up, let me propose that they are not synonyms.
I do not view the arguments for trickle up as arguments in defense of Karl Marx's communism, just like i don't view arguments for trickle down as defending the free market. Trickle up can happen outside of a communist or socialist economic system, and in the same token, trickle down can happen in a communist or socialist economy.
My exercise with this debate is to imagine what the effect would be of promoting micro-investment as intensely as macro investment is promoted.
You touch on the topic of management, and I think that I can speak a little bit to that through my professional experience. I do not see how, even a micro business can function without some level of management. For sure I do not frown upon management (I am a big fan of the work of Peter Drucker). But it is a fact that in most of the businesses I have worked in, there seems to be an over-abundance of managers, and in general managers are over compensated compared to the real value they add to the business. Management is vital to business survival, yes. But over compensated and saturated management? mmm maybe not so much. Again, it is not an all or nothing.
Regarding concentration of wealth, i don't think the number of millionaires per country is any measure of wealth distribution at the individual level (example: the richest man on earth is from a 3rd world country with one of the highest levels of wealth inequality).
If the common man of the 1800's category were to include the native americans, or the people from what used to be the northern states of Mexico, or farmers in mainland China or Cuba, i am not so sure the statement of "richer than ever before" holds true. Progress has been selective
cheersNov 5 2012: edward, take my comments as you will. They are freely given. If they resonate take them to heart, if they don't guard against them. Good luck.Nov 5 2012: Bob Dylan once made the observation, "instead of coming up any higher, they would rather drag you down into the hole their in". Your comparison of East Russia and Germany does not attempt to create synthesis and/or integration but instead attempts to compare with lowest denominator. John, I'm not willing to play your game. Good bye.
Nov 5 2012: Your quoting Dylan is quite ironic! Stay ignorant. What do I care? ;-)
Your claim that East Germany and Soviet Russia were the lowest denominators only speaks of your ignorance. Pick any country from the old East Europe. Or pick Cuba, if you prefer.
Instead of offering a rational argument, you prefer to play your game by pretending to not play your game. Even more ironic. Definitely a sign that you are an old hand at the game. (The ego must be protected at all cost, right?)Nov 5 2012: John, I guess your not able to connect the dots. Let me help.
35 years toward sustainable forestry adopting the wisdom of Gifford Pinchot to provide the greatest good for the greatest number for the longest time. The exact opposite of paracitic capitalism which is robbing future generations blind.
30 plus years in renewable energy and conservation from sales of solar hot water, diagnostics blower doors and duct blasters, to designing a sponsor designed conservation project. All focusing on the transition and implementation of an energy future that is sustainable and affordable, if the parasites don't poison the culture beyond any ability to find meaningful limits and use significantly less on all fronts. Which I do on a daily basis.
To exploring affordable housing concepts and prototypes and how that can integrate with forestry as well.
So if that doesn't connect your dots, Mr John. I'm afraid I can't help you.
Good day..
Nov 5 2012: Thanks to your elaborating, I can now point out the dots you missed.
"30 plus years in renewable energy and conservation from SALES of solar hot water, diagnostics blower doors and duct blasters, to designing a SPONSOR designed conservation project."
Do you think you would have managed to SELL or find SPONSORS in anything but a relatively free market? The people who bought from you had a good idea of where they wanted to spend their money. No one compelled them. The same goes for the people who chose to sponsor you. Since you believe that being environment friendly is good for us all, you probably find it part of your self-imposed duty to educate others about it. That's approximately what I'm doing too.
Now imagine living in Soviet Russia or East Germany, and trying to convince the government that they must buy the kinds of products you're selling (if not from you, then from anyone who makes similar products), or imagine trying to convince those government officials to sponsor your schemes. Sure, you might have succeeded in finding the favor of some official, purely by luck, but without market-driven feedback, do you think such schemes would do justice to the effort and money spent on them?Nov 4 2012: My father-in-law, who was a living embodyment of Archie Bunker, said that if we distributed all the money on Earth evenly among all the people on Earth, it would take just ten years for the money to return to where it was. I think he was right. Trickle direction is always down. Food scraps don't fall to the ceiling, but to the floor.
Nov 4 2012: The image that the last two lines invokes is what the Trickle Down concept is all about, "I enjoy the feast and you get to fight over what falls to the floor."Nov 4 2012: Edward, looks to me that your tree didn't grow that far from your fathers.... Once self serving and selfish, always self serving and selfish. It will be interesting when our economic system (which is only supported by our mutual confidence) goes belly up, for many of these same selfish reasons which you embody. Your children and grand children will inherent the same massively dysfunctional world as mine, unfortunately..
Nov 4 2012: I am curious. In what ways are you selfless? What have you done for the poor and the needy? I wonder why you assume the moral high ground so easily.
Nov 4 2012: John for your benefit...in case you missed it. My previous post.
The free market is indeed free. It's free of responsibility, accountability and liability. It's free of giving any value to natural resources, ecosystem services and all of the 'commons' we share living on this once garden planet. This disconnect is getting bigger every year with the eventually outcome of inter-generational civil war, as our children and grand children understand how selfish we have been. We need new analysis that understands these new dynamics, not looking backwards into the rear view mirror. Wake up...Nov 5 2012: Thanks, but I'm afraid what you have pasted doesn't even remotely answer my questions.
If you wish, I can provide my analysis of what you have pasted. But, that's a different matter.Nov 5 2012: I am a man of many offenses. My character will not withstand even much less vigorous attacks than yours Mr. Patterson. I do think your energy and intellect could be put to more constructive use than assassinating my tattered character. Harvesting such low hanging fruit will not lead to much by way of improving understanding and furthering truth. So, having expounded on your opinion of me personally have you anything constructive or informative to say relating to the topic?Nov 3 2012: All boats rise with the tide.
When I produce a valued commodity that I can exchange for a valued commodity that you've produced we both come out ahead. I can continue producing my specialized commodity for exchange without retooling to produce the commodity I can bargain with from you or others, and then so can you.
Henry Ford valued a parity of production by producing cars that his workforce can afford. Mr. Ford got rich, his company thrived, and his example of production fueled an engine of economic prosperity.
Nov 3 2012: Henry Ford had a motto: "pay your employees enough so that they can buy what they produce", few businesses still work like that.
Comment deleted
Nov 3 2012: ExactlyNov 3 2012: "there are many examples where the extra wealth is either just accumulated, or it is invested in ways that do not create jobs nor drive prices down."
Can you give us a few examples of the many?
All new jobs come from small business all small business is started with investment from somebody. The small business owner is an individual or a small group of individuals.
Nov 3 2012: Hi Pat,
Even though i do not entirely share the point of view that it is the investor who creates value (without accounting for the value that creators and workers bring), I do share with you the opinion that small businesses are indeed the main driver of most new jobs.
Now, as for the example, just look at the profits posted by any of the big oil companies in the past 10 years. Then let's compare it to the number of jobs they have created, or the improvements in their industry that have resulted in lower costs and hence better prices for consumers.
That is one example, but it can be found in other industries (the Financial Sector comes to mind) as well
Nov 3 2012: by example I mean examples not conjecture.
ALL of the new jobs are created by small business, this is the core of the free market. E.G. LED lights come along and take market share away from existing light bulb manufactures. Existing business s shrink and expand but the aggregate is no new jobs.
Anyway the key is to nurture small business investment. Which is the absolute problem with the existing administration.
Nov 3 2012: Unless you count General Electric as a small business the LED light didn't come from small business. Big business and small business both create jobs and both receive investment money, however this does not mean all the money rich people have goes towards investments that create jobs. Speculation on precious metals, real estate, food and oil are examples of investments that create neither jobs nor wealth.Nov 3 2012: ahhh you are going to make me go dig numbers Pat! but it will be a good exercise
I agree again, small business investment should be nurtured
By the way, how small is small in your view?Nov 3 2012: Anders and Pat, Anders you sated " ... the value that the workers bring" That is straight from Karl Marx. His thought was that the value of the product was in the craftsmen not the demand for the product itself. On the other hand the Economist Adam Smith recognized that the free market was the single source of the wealth of nations. He also penned a book of the same title .. which is good reading ... hint hint. In his travels he saw the results of the goods from England and the goods from France brings prosperity to both nations and gave truth to the free market system and the supply and demand of the consumers. Money standing still was losing money and therefore investors were sponsoring new businesses .... for a fee. If the demand existed then the small business grew and the cycle repeated itself. The investor, the firm, and all employees benefited through this trickle down economy of free market, capitalism, and supply and demand.
Pat did I get this right? Bob.
Nov 6 2012: Hi Bob,
Thanks for the reference, indeed I have been fortunate (or at least more fortunate than unfortunate, wink wink back) to read Adam Smith and his wealth of nations.
But even though i enjoyed reading it, i would not go as far as to say that Adam Smith's theory works flawlessly.
Later, though, Krisztian was kind enough to point me to the von Mises Institute's website (mises.org), where i have learned a lot more about the austrian school of economics and the free market theory.
Also, many years ago, I went through Das Kapital, and i found it a dense read, with some good as well as some not-so -good parts.
I am not an economist, by far, so my opinion is that of a newbie. But the issue i see with the work of Smith and the work of Marx (and even the work of von Mises himself), is that (again, in my opinion) they fail to account for a few things:
1) prior to the invention of money, humans were able to survive for thousands of years, and the use of common "property" was much more prevalent than individual property. Reading Smith, Marx or von Mises, it appears as if human history prior to the invention of money/economics is negligible. Human history is much older than civilization history. And this is relevant because basic human needs have not changed since humans first walked the planet, and basic human needs play a role in any economic system.
2) According to what is now understood in cognitive science, humans are not truly rational agents, and the decision making mental process does not (by far) have the blind and consistent objective of maximizing individual economic gains
3) With enough capital or access to resources, demand can be manipulated, thus making the demand based value a bit less accurate than it sounds in theory. Expecting that an invisible force will always flatten this altered demand seems to require certain amount of blind faith
Of course, it is entirely possible that i got it all wrong


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Who had better powers, Samantha or Jeanie?
She could do just about anything Samantha could, plus some. At least from what I can remember. I first started watching the re-runs of the shows in the mid to late 80's. I'll still catch a show now and again when I run across them.
Get back to work.
Both of them were hot!! Tabatha is a babe these days! wooohooo!! I believe Elizabeth Montgomery has left the planet.
To put the world in order, we must first put the nation in order; to put the nation in order, we must put the family in order; to put the family in order, we must cultivate our personal life; and to cultivate our personal life, we must first set our hearts right.
-- Confucius
Jeanie had more power cause of that hot outfit. Hot chicks in stripper costumes are Powerful man!!!!!!
My doctor gave me six months to live, but when I couldn't pay the bill he gave me six months more.
Walter Matthau
Jeanie, she was more obedient and you could always stuff her back inside the bottle if need be, no wicked mother-in-law around either.
Originally posted by swampfox
Jeanie, she was more obedient and you could always stuff her back inside the bottle if need be, no wicked mother-in-law around either.
Yes ....bingo!
Although they look a lot different today...both Diane and Erin played Tabitha.
Always saying yes master....she had power over me
73% of Americans say that illegal immigration is a problem. The other 27% say, "No habla inglis!"
They both had 2 excellant points about them
Your my kind of man! How about Jeannie's belly button showing back in the late 60's? or early 70's? She was hot. If I was 6 months younger I would have given her a run for her money!
I would have to say Jeanie was better. Her outfit was more sexy. Besies I could never get the nose thing down.
I would never diss Elizabeth Montgomery after having seen her in the role of Lizzy Borden Too bad she died so young.
As for "Barbara Jean Moorhead"...that's right guys, she was originally called "Moorhead", she never showed her navel;
Government is a disease... ...masquerading as its own cure
Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV
now I liked the tabatha series that came later on but was suppose to be the daughter in bewitched. It was supose to be when she had grown up and moved out........Clint blacks wife, Lisa Hartman hummmmmmmmm
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22 Jun 2007
|Vermont Alpine Slides
The Stowe Alpine Slide opens tomorrow. This is a lot of fun for both children and adults. There is a height restriction for children before they can go by themselves but usually by age six children are tall enough to go by themselves. Children under the minimum height or under the age of two can ride double with an adult.
The adventure begins with a ride on a double chair lift to the top of Spruce Peak Mountain. At the top, you will pick up a plastic sled and get on the track for an exhilarating ride that lasts about three minutes if you go down quickly. You control the speed of the sled with a stick. Pull back and the sled slows down. Push the stick forward and you speed up.
There is also an alpine slide at the Pico ski area next to Killington and just a few minutes east of Rutland in central Vermont. The Bromley Thrill Zone near Bennington and Manchester in the southwestern part of the state also has an alpine slide.
(c) 2007 Jeff Connor Grunberg Haus
|Advice , Unusual
|posted by grunhaus at 08:16 | permalink
21 Jun 2007
|Vermont Hiking
There is an overwhelming abundance of hiking in Vermont. I have no idea of how many miles of trails there must be but it would not surprise me if it were thousands of miles. We get a good number of hikers at our inn each year, many of them here to hike Camel's Hump, just a few miles away. It is the third highest peak in Vermont and has the state's most distinctive profile. It is a moderate hike until the last few hundred yards where hikers almost have to crawl up the bare rock of the Hump itself.
Camel's Hump mountain is featured on the US Mint's Vermont quarter.
One of my favorite books for getting hiking information is the Day Hiker's Guide to Vermont published by the Green Mountain Club . The club is located about ten minutes from our inn and you can stop there to purchase maps and books. Local outfitters around the state will have them too. The best way to make sure you get what you want is to order it online from the Green Mountain Club well in advance of your travel date.
The Green Mountain Club built Vermont's Long Trail between 1910 and 1930. The trail runs directly over the main ridge of Vermont's Green Mountain range from the Massachusetts border to the Canadian border, a distance of 270 miles. Today, the club still maintains the trail.
The club's website is a good starting point for all hikes throughout Vermont.
Another hiking web site I found recently is Marc Howe's Peakbagging Guide. . For hikers looking to climb high peaks, Vermont is ideal as Marc points out that the state has about a hundred 3000 footers and a handful of 4000 footers.
What I find most interesting about this site is that Marc has climbed the mountains (some several times) and writes from personal experience. He includes a good number of photographs too. He lists all the VT mountains he has climbed (24 so far), their elevations, and he has links to the reports he has written on each one. You can see that he does a lot of hiking year around so it's easy to be confident that he knows what he's talking about.
(c) 2007 Jeff Connor Grunberg Haus
|posted by grunhaus at 22:52 | permalink
1 Jun 2007
|Two of the Best Scenic Drives in Vermont
View looking east from the top of Mount Mansfield, Stowe Vermont
There are many hundreds of miles of scenic drives in Vermont but two of my favorites are Route 108 through Smuggler's Notch, and the Mount Mansfield Toll Road, both in Stowe.
The section of Route 108 that runs from the village of Stowe to the village of Jeffersonville includes a memorable drive through smuggler's Notch. This Notch Road is narrow (no edge marking and no center line), tight, and twisty. You will be driving up a steep grade with deep forests on each side. There are several hairpin turns where you will be going five or ten miles per hour. Unfortunately, the driver won't get to see as much as the passengers because you have to keep your eyes closely on the road. The passengers will have a great time viewing the scenery which becomes more enhanced at the slow driving speed. One of the features of the drive are massive boulders right alongside the road, some of them the size of a small cottage.
At the road's peak, there is a small parking area on the left (coming from Stowe) where you can stop and get out of the car to admire the scenery. There is a hiking trail on the other side of the road. We hiked it once and I did not care much for it. During busy periods, it will be crowded with people and the hike itself is really like a climb up a one mile staircase. However, at the top is a beautiful mountain lake - you can see a picture on the Scrapbook page of the Grunberg Haus web site. A much better hike is along the Long Trail running over Mount Mansfield which you can get to from the Auto Toll Road.
The Stowe Auto Toll Road starts at the parking lot behind the Stowe Inn and rises several thousand feet to the top of Mount Mansfield, the highest mountain in Vermont. To get there, drive on Route 108 from the village of Stowe toward the ski area. About five miles from town, watch carefully for the Toll Road sign which will be small and included with other items of interest at the Stowe Inn. A landmark just before the left turn into the parking lot are some tennis courts also located on the left shortly before the parking lot. Here is a link to Google Maps. Go to the rear of the parking lot and you will see a slim toll booth.
The road starts out on paved road but soon becomes a dirt road. The drive to the top is very twisty and takes about 20 minutes. There are a few pull-off areas along the drive where you can stop and admire the view but the best view is from the top. The photo at the beginning of of this article was taken from the top of the Gondola which stops are few hundred feet short of the toll road parking lot elevation but it gives you a good idea of what the view will look like.
Thee will be a ranger at the building next to the upper parking lot. I suggest you ask him or her the location of Frenchman's Pile. (No, I don't know why it's called Frenchman's Pile. It's just a three foot high pile of rocks.) It's about a 15 minute walk along the mountain ridge hiking trail to Frenchman's Pile and the view from there is truly magnificent. You can see in 360 degrees. To the west you will see the Adirondack Mountains of New York and to the east you will see the White Mountains of New Hampshire. Burlington and Lake Champlain will be right below you and they'll look like a very tiny, miniature town and lake. If you know the villages in the area, or if you have a map, you can pick those out too.
To my mind, this is one of the best things to do in Vermont.
Unfortunately, the road is for cars and pedestrians only. Bicycles and motorcycles are not permitted.
The toll is $21 per car unless you have more than six people in the vehicle, in which case the toll is $6 per person.
(c) 2007 Jeff Connor
|posted by grunhaus at 16:06 | permalink
11 May 2007
|Summer Camp for Children
I don't have any personal experience with Mud City Adventures but their summer children's camps sound wonderful. They have day and weekly programs, Saturday camps, twilight camp, overnight weekend and week-long adventures, and sailing camps. There are an amzing number of activities for ages 3 to 16. You'll wish you could go to some of them. However, they do have some adult activities too, so don't envy the kids.
Mud City Adventures is based in Stowe VT and is named after an actual Vermont town located near Stowe. Considering how much kids like to play in mud, it seems an ideal name. The activities however are far beyond playing in the dirt. Take a look - I know you will be impressed.
(c) 2007 Jeff Connor
|posted by grunhaus at 19:51 | permalink
4 May 2007
|The End of Vermont Skiing
Killington May 4 2007
Vermont skiing for 2006/2007 comes to an offical close this weekend when Killington, always the first to open and the last to close, wraps up the season.
Killington this weekend will have nine trails, three miles, open. One chair will be operating: the Superstar Express serving More Difficult and Most Difficult terrain only. No beginner terrain will be available.
After the ski area stops on Sunday, the Killington golf course opens at the end of the week, May 11!
Some other ski areas are not officially open but you can find some intrepid skiers and boarders snowshoeing up with their equipment on their backs, and sunscreen in their pockets, to get in a few more runs on what has been a great season.
(c) 2007 Jeff Connor
|posted by grunhaus at 19:42 | permalink
2 May 2007
|The Bob Newhart Inn
Just back from a one week vacation, what do I decide to do? Write an entry publicizing another inn of course.
Actually there is some sense in this, in a roundabout, six degrees of separation kind of way. First, Tom Poston died a couple of days ago. He played played George Utley, the slow, inept handyman on the Bob Newhart Show. That show placed Newhart as the owner of a Vermont inn called the Stratford Inn, and surrounded the laconic actor with a wild assortment on deranged people, most notably the brothers Larry, Darryl, and Darryl who looked like three extras from a droll, Vermont-style Deliverance movie. It was Newhart's longest running show, starting in 1982 and wrapping up its run in 1990.
We are asked from time to time if that inn actually exists. In fact, it does although different from the TV icon. It is called the Waybury Inn and it's located not too far from us on Route 125 in East Middlebury Vermont. The Waybury's web site has a page devoted to its famous TV connection. The Waybury exterior was shown during the TV show's opening although it is now painted green instead of the white color it was back in the 1980's.
Coming back full circle to Tom Poston, and just to prove once again that you cannot judge a book by its cover, it turns out that in real life Poston could not have been the fumbling goofball he played on stage. He was a highly decorated WWII airman who entered the US Army Air Corps as a private and attained the rank of captain in just five years, serving in North Africa, Italy, France, and England.
(c) 2007 Jeff Connor Grunberg Haus
|posted by grunhaus at 21:04 | permalink
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Kanye West, Chief Keef Remix: 'I Don't Like' Gets G.O.O.D. Music Treatment
Even as Kanye West jets around the world, hobnobbing with Parisian fashionistas, recording in London and shooting vids in Qatar, he's got an ear to the Chicago streets. Proof comes with the unveiling of Yeezy's "I Don't Like" remix -- a star-studded G


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Washington, DC—The Institute of Museum and Library Services (IMLS) announced today that out of 46 applicants nation-wide, 17 Native American tribal communities were chosen to receive $2,030,562 in Native American Library Services Enhancement grants. Ten of these grantees are first time awardees. Click here to see a full list of Enhancement grant recipients.
"These grantees have been chosen for their commitment to offer the very best to their communities through expanded services, partnerships with local organizations, and increased access to important cultural knowledge," said IMLS Acting Director Marsha L. Semmel.
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The End Of 'Glory': Joe Keatinge and Ross Campbell On Ending Their Story in 'Glory' #34 [Interview]
Of all the books that were part of the excellent Extreme Studios relaunch this year, Joe Keatinge and Ross Campbell's Glory was far and away my favorite. The epic story, the beautifully drawn battles, the quiet character moments, all of them combined to make it one of my favorite comics of the year. With Glory #34, though,


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Charlie Sykes: Sykes Writes
All true. It really does suck to be a conservative.
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For the background render in my code I need to perform an operation that essentially acts like calling glClear(GL_DEPTH_BUFFER_BIT) except that it needs to use the current stencil buffer to mask out parts of the screen. The other requirement is that it has to work on fixed function pipeline systems, preferably back to OpenGL 1.3. Any suggestions on how to best do this?
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Hundreds of candles burn during Wesak Day celebrations at the Buddhist Maha Vihara temple in the Kuala Lumpur suburb of Brickfields in Malaysia, Friday, May 24, 2013. Wesak Day marks the three momentous events in Buddha's life, his birthday, enlightenment, and achievement of Nirvana. (AP Photo/Mark Baker)
A newly wed bride rests in the shade as her groom helps holding the hem of her wedding dress during their wedding photo session in Shanghai, China, Friday, May 24, 2013. (AP Photo/Eugene Hoshiko)
An Iraqi man wears a metal mask used as a torture device by the regime of Iraq's ousted leader Saddam Hussein at the Shaheed Monument in Baghdad, Iraq, Friday, May 24, 2013. Saddam Hussein had the split teardrop-shaped sculpture built in the middle of a manmade lake in the early 1980s to commemorate Iraqis killed in the Iran-Iraq War. The names of hundreds of thousands of fallen Iraqi soldiers are inscribed in simple Arabic script around the base. In recent years, the Shiite-led government has begun turning it into a museum honoring the overwhelmingly Shiite and Kurdish victims of Saddam's Sunni-dominated but largely secular regime. (AP Photo/Khalid Mohammed)
An Indian boy jumps into water with splash to cool off during a hot afternoon in Bhubaneswar, India, Friday, May 24, 2013. The heat wave condition intensified in the state with the mercury crossing 46 degrees Celsius (115 degrees Fahrenheit). (AP Photo/Biswaranjan Rout)
Holding a single flower each, two protesters wearing black hoods and orange jump suits take part in a demonstration in front of the White House in Washington, Friday, May 24, 2013, calling for the closing of the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The protest was organized by a coalition of groups including Witness Against Torture. (AP Photo/Jacquelyn Martin)
Members of the 2013 graduating class of the United States Naval Academy throw their caps into the air marking the end of their commencement ceremony in Annapolis, Md,. Friday, May 24, 2013, where President Barack Obama spoke. (AP Photo/Pablo Martinez Monsivais)
In this timing and scoring camera image taken at the finish line and provided by IndyCar, driverJack Dempsey, top left, of Ireland, wins the Indy Lights Firestone Freedom 100 auto race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway in Indianapolis, Friday, May 24, 2013. Dempsey finished 0.026 seconds ahead Colombia's Gabby Chaves (7). (AP Photo/IndyCar)
An Afghan policeman fires his weapon during a gunbattle following a suicide attack in Kabul, Afghanistan, Friday, May 24, 2013. A suicide bomber struck in the heart of the Afghan capital on Friday, sending a plume of smoke billowing over Kabul and setting up a gunbattle in the second major attack in the city in little over a week, police said. (AP Photo/Ahmad Jamshid)
A worker looks at the collapsed portion of the Interstate 5 bridge at the Skagit River Friday, May 24, 2013, in Mount Vernon, Wash. A truck carrying an oversize load struck the four-lane bridge on the major thoroughfare between Seattle and Canada, sending a section of the span and two vehicles into the Skagit River below Thursday evening. All three occupants suffered only minor injuries. At an overnight news conference, Washington State Patrol Chief John Batiste blamed the collapse on a tractor-trailer carrying a tall load that hit an upper part of the span. (AP Photo/Elaine Thompson)
May 24, 2013 — Shelby County District Attorney General Amy Weirich (left) and Memphis Police Director Toney Armstrong talk before a press conference in the parking lot of the Summer Motel on Summer Ave. after it was closed by authorities along with six other motels deemed public nuisances. Police have responded hundreds of times to the motels for complaints from theft to forcible rape and undercover officers were repeatedly able to rent rooms by the hour in violation of the law. (Brandon Dill/Special to The Commercial Appeal)
May 24, 2013 - Manassas High School seniors, each in the top ten percent of their class, Dominique Adams, (from left) Diera McGrew, D'Ana McGrew and MarTerrius Massie sit on stage at the Cannon Center for the Performing Arts during a rehearsal for their graduation ceremony which takes place at the Cannon Center on Saturday. All the seniors in the 2013 graduating class at Manassas will attend college in the fall. The students will forgo the traditional symbolic moving of the tassle on their mortarboards and instead each graduate will don a baseball cap with the logo from the college or university they will attend. (Brandon Dill/Special to The Commercial Appeal)
May 24, 2013 - Harrison Williams from MUS competes in the Div II Pole Vault during the TSSAA State Track and Field Meet in Murfreesboro Friday. (Jim Weber/The Commercial Appeal)


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Scuderia Toro Rosso
Constructors' championship 2010: 9th
West Australian reserve driver Daniel Ricciardo is waiting in the wings and will drive on Fridays in practice for the team starting at Albert Park. With Red Bull motorsport consultant Dr Helmut Marko saying in the off-season that he wants Ricciardo to be in F1 by 2012 "at the latest", the pressure is on young driver pairing Alguersuari and Buemi to step up their performances.
Toro Rosso's speed in off-season testing was an eye-opener, and veteran technical chief Giorgio Ascanelli hopes that the second year for the team as a constructor in its own right can see an improvement on last year's haul of 13 points.
18 Sébastien Buemi (age 22, Swiss, 36 Grand Prix starts)
Buemi had his moments last year – he led the race for a lap in Canada where he finished a season-best eighth – but his 2010 campaign was best remembered for a massive 300km/h shunt in China where the front suspension broke under braking and sent both front wheels skywards. Finished in the points on his F1 debut here in 2009 when he came seventh.
2010 season: 8 points, 16th – best result eighth in Canada.
19 Jaime Alguersuari (age 21, Spanish, 27 Grand Prix starts)
Alguersuari finished the 2010 season strongly, out-qualifying his more experienced teammate in the last five races and earning two of his five points for the year in the season finale in Abu Dhabi. Jaime, who turns 21 on the Wednesday leading into the Australian Grand Prix, was 11th in his Albert Park debut last season.
2010 season: 5 points, 19th – best result ninth in Malaysia and Abu Dhabi.
STR6, powered by Ferrari engines for the fifth consecutive season.


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by Austin O'Connor, AARP, December 2013
MUSICIAN: Sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll — the seminal punk rocker's lifelong walk on the wild side had it all. His minimalist guitar style was hugely influential, first with the Velvet Underground and later as a solo act. "One chord is fine," he once said. "Two chords are pushing it. Three chords and you're into jazz."
1986: Ebet Roberts/Redferns
SINGER: The woman behind the massive hit
"Tennessee Waltz" was the highest-selling female artist of the 1950s, with a string of No. 1 songs, including "How Much Is That Doggie in the Window." She was awarded a posthumous Lifetime Achievement Grammy in March.
1958: AP Images
PIANIST: One of the most iconic musicians of the 20th century, Cliburn gained global rock star status in 1958, when, at just 23, he won Moscow's International Tchaikovsky Competition — viewed by many as a kind of Cold War victory for the U.S. He performed for every U.S. president since Truman.
1958: AP Corbis
SINGER: The Rock and Roll Hall of Famer, called "the Frank Sinatra of the blues," had a big-band style that uniquely incorporated gospel, country, jazz and R&B. Though Bland was a regular on the R&B charts, he also had a few crossover hits, including 1964's "Ain't Nothing You Can Do."
1976: Chuck Pulin
SINGER: She was the youngest and last surviving member of the Andrews Sisters, the boogie-woogie siblings who became stars singing for U.S troops abroad during WWII. "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" was their biggest hit, but not their only one: They sold more than 75 million records through the years.
1942: AP Images
RECORD PRODUCER: His collaborators form a who's who of musicians from the latter half of the last century: Sinatra, Dylan, McCartney, Madonna, Joel. Early on, he worked as a sound tech for JFK's campaign — and recorded Marilyn Monroe's infamous "Happy Birthday" presidential serenade.
1985: Ebet Roberts/Redferns
SINGER: Active in the early years of the Greenwich Village folk music scene, Havens shot to stardom when he opened at Woodstock in 1969. With other artists stuck in transit, his solo set lasted nearly three hours. In August his ashes were scattered by plane on the site of the historic Woodstock concert.
1969: Henry Diltz/Corbis
SINGER: Through a life filled with artistry, addiction, alcoholism and a fistful of failed marriages (including one to Tammy Wynette), the Texan known as "The Possum" didn't just sing country songs — he lived them. The country music legend has inspired countless young artists to pick up a guitar.
1970: Michael Ochs Archives/Getty Images
MUSICIAN: The Grammy-winning keyboardist, singer, composer and producer had a long career in multiple genres, but may be best known for jazz. He once said that while rock is youth-focused, "in jazz, you just kind of level off and continue to gain respect, so long as you keep your integrity."
2009: EPA/Jean/Christophe Bott/Corbis
SINGER: The country crooner (and yodeler) found huge success in Europe before stardom in America. His single "Rose Marie" topped the British charts for 11 weeks in 1955. Greats such as Michael Jackson and Paul McCartney, who adopted Whitman's lefthanded guitar-playing style, have cited his influence.
1956: Edward Miller/Getty Images
SINGER: Gorme had solo hits, notably 1963's "Blame it on the Bossa Nova," but was most famous for her partnership with husband Steve Lawrence. The couple performed around the world and often on the Tonight Show, where they first met in 1953. He was by her side when she died.
c. 1960: GAB Archive/Redferns/Getty Images
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Securely take control of your data
ISV-certified rack workstation featuring optional dual high-end graphics or dual GPU compute cards.
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- Intel 5520
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NVIDIA Tesla C2075 – Supports Nvidia Maximus™ technology
NVIDIA Tesla C2050
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Up to six 6.3cm (2.5) SAS hard drives:
600GB or 900GB SAS 10k RPM
146GB SAS 15k RPM
Drive Controllers
- Integrated SATA 3.0GB/s controller that supports host-based (software) RAID 0, 1, 5, 10 (Windows only)
Optional SAS 6ir PCIe controller card that supports host-based (software) RAID 0, 1
Optional SATA / SAS Perc 6i PCIe controller card that supports hardware RAID 0, 1, 5, 10
Ports, Slots & Chassis
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1 - Audio out
1 - System ID Button
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4 - Diagnostic LED
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Cms : 8.63 x 44.06 x 75.36 (79.27 w/ bezel)
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Performance flat-panel displays, Dell UltraSharp™ widescreen and standard flat-panel displays from 17" viewable to 30" viewable
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The Community of Disc Golfers and About All Things Disc Golf
Views: 15
YES, even more than the First Run CE Teebird TL. The TL offers a bit too much speed for some of these shots. No doubt they are probably the truest stand up Hyzer to Anhyzer drivers ever made.. However, CE Leopards offer their pilots rare slow speed Pimpness
© 2015 Created by Terry "the Pirate" Calhoun.


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Home > Sports Memorabilia > NFL Team Gear & Collectibles > Green Bay Packers > Aluminum Travel Table Green Bay Packers
Aluminum Travel Table Green Bay Packers
Provides a hands-free way to transport your table when using it away from home.
The Aluminum Travel Table is a convenient and versatile portable folding table with a specially designed carry sling.
The sling wraps securely to the table and includes three exterior pockets to hold up to four aluminum seats. (Includes Table only. Seats not included). Take it on your next trip.
Features include:
- Lightweight hollow aluminum construction
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- Includes a carry sling exclusively designed with shoulder straps and large pockets for additional storage
- Integrated footrests for added comfort
Dimensions: 27.5" L x 27" W x 27" H
Weight: 41 lbs.
Aluminum Travel Table Green Bay Packers
Aluminum Travel Table Green Bay Packers
Our innovative products will provide you and your family with years of enjoyment. And with the Brookstone Protection Plus service and replacement plans, you'll have the added peace of mind knowing that if the unexpected does happen, we will simply repair or replace your covered product. Our enhanced coverage goes above and beyond the manufacturer's warranty, saving you time and money.
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Functional designs. Toasters that add that special touch to your kitchen
CTO4003VAZ Icona Vintage 4 Slice Toaster with a glossy Sky Blue and pastel finish metal body and chrome profiles
© De'Longhi Appliances S.r.l. - Via L. Seitz, 47, 31100 Treviso, Italy - All rights reserved


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- Spencer Steward
- Chandler, AZ
- United States
This conversation is closed.
Dog food for humans
As a dog owner i have always wondered this and secretly wished for it every time I go to dump a bowl of food into my dogs dish.
Why cant i have dog food for humans? Something sold in bulk requiring little to no preparation and sustaining me fully with all the nutrition I need including vitamins (and maybe even making my hair shinier :)). Something inexpensive with a long expiration date and decent taste.
Would you eat it?
Feb 13 2013: High quality dog food is consumable by humans. Check the labels. Most commercially made dog food is not fit for human consumption because they include animal by-products that may not suit our digestion.
Now, human-edible dog food has been invented and is being sold by Evermore Pet Food. Hanna Mandelbaum and Allison Weiner, the two company owners, created this product to address the quality maintenance of dog food being sold in the stores.
But not all human foods are good for dogs: http://www.hartz.com/Dogs/Nutrition/foods_dogs_should_avoid.aspxFeb 12 2013: Soup or Vienna Sausages andbread would seem to be the equivalent Of course, there is also dry cereal and milk.
Of course, Kate has already pointed out that some people already eat dog food. Maybe the limitation is betting frujit and vegetables in a dies. Perhaps, something like a crockpot meal Okay, that's a soup or stew.Feb 18 2013: I saw mention of Evermore food for dogs in this conversation thread. My daughter, Hanna Mandelbaum, is co-owner of this company. Two years ago in March, she and her business partner did eat the dog food for a month in combination with other dishes made from ingredients that comprise the food. The campaign was labeled "Evermore Me". If you are interested you can check out the live video footage on the company website www.evermorepetfood.com. I must point out that even though this is an incredibly healthy food made from the highest quality ingredients, and would do a body no harm - it has been formulated as a complete diet for dogs, not people. What I do want to point out regarding Spencer's remarks - this would pertain to both people and pets, is that, I am sure that you can find foods meeting your desired criteria, except for the "inexpensive" part. Anything that has quality ingredients that you would want to put in your mouth, you will have to pay more for. I have been paying much more attention to nutritional issues since my daughter has become involved in food production. I have started more careful reading of labels and becoming more aware in regards to ingredients, sourcing , and in the case of animals, how they are raised and slaughtered. I am not one to part easily with a dollar. Quality food may cost more up front, but I am trying to think of this more as an investment to help ensure more positive health outcomes and perhaps even save money in the long term. By the way, I did eat the Evermore along with Hanna and Alison on Day 19 of Evermore Me!Feb 15 2013: I work in a pet food factory,(dry food and semi-moist for dogs and cats), we are required to have such a high standard of product, that it will be fit for human consumption, becuase lets face it, some kids get a taste for it.
when i was a kid, our dog was so old that his teeth had worn awayto almost nothing, this made his eating dry food quite painful, so i used to chew some for him, i think he really appreciated it but swallowing it wasnt the best, bit of a disagreeance with the ingredients within.Feb 15 2013: I used to eat dog food when I was a kid.
Now when someone throws a stick, I just can't stop myself.
Pot Noodle is probably the human equivalent, but without the nutrition, vitamins, decent taste and the ability to shine up the hair. Otherwise it has remarkable similarities. (Should it be renamed "Not Poodle"?).
Yes I'd eat it - if only to stop this really annoying tail from wagging.Feb 14 2013: I understand that some people would only want to eat "dog-human food" to keep a diet, but don't you think it would get boring eating the same thing everyday?Feb 11 2013: Just for your interest, Spencer, for the last five years I have lived on only one food: milk. Every day I drink between one and two gallons of organic skim milk, and I don't eat or drink anything else. It's been good for my health, I've lost seventy pounds. I do have to go to market every day, but I zip right in since I know exactly the one product I want. Also I never have to do dishes, never have to clean up the kitchen.
Feb 11 2013: Thats cool, I hope ur taking vitamins as well, I think milk is lacking in a couple categories
Feb 13 2013: No, I don't, Spencer, I feel if it's not broken, why fix it?
I do very well on my yearly physical, for example, milk has no or almost no iron, and yet my blood iron stays at an acceptable level. I am inquiring as to why this is.Feb 11 2013: think i read somewhere that the only food that a human can infinitely survive on is breast milkFeb 11 2013: As you have described it I would replace my current, expensive food budget with your People Chow! Providing it is not Soylent Green. Like many good ideas the production of it is not the problem. The established, and very powerful, food industry will buy all the best politicians and hire all the best lobbyists to make sure their gravy train does not get derailed. Real World 101. Sorry.
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GLENWOOD — After trailing the entire game, the Creston boys entered the fourth quarter here Tuesday night tied with Glenwood at 47-47.
The Panthers quickly surged ahead in the fourth quarter and held on for the win, 60-52, over Glenwood, ending a two-game losing skid.
Creston improved to 9-2 for the season and 6-1 in Hawkeye 10 Conference play, while Glenwood falls to 5-6 and 2-6.
"That fourth quarter, we went on a little bit of a run there," head coach Billy Hiatt said. "I thought maybe we were going to pull away, and we did a little bit. Then they started fouling and it turned into a free throw game."
Creston started the fourth quarter on a 5-0 run thanks to a Colby Taylor 3-pointer and a Briar Evans layup, taking a 52-47 lead.
JJ Hahn ended the run when he got a steal and a layup, plus the foul. After making the free throw, the Panther lead was cut to 52-50. Hahn led all scorers with 23 points.
But Evans answered with an offensive rebound and putback with 2:54 remaining to give the Panthers a four-point cushion, and then Taylor knocked down a jumper to put the Panthers up six.
After Luke Neitzel blocked a Grant May shot, Kainen Somers scored a layup to give Creston a 58-50 lead.
Tyler Jensen made two free throws for Glenwood, and Taylor netted two more free throws for the final 60-52 margin.
Hahn and May, who scored 14 points in the first quarter, gave the Panther fits during the first half.
Hiatt challenged his team at halftime, trailing 39-35, and the Panthers came out and played better defense, limiting May to just two points in the second half.
"It was a pretty uptempo game (in the first half), and the Hahn kid was really giving us fits," Hiatt said. "We were trying to figure out how to make adjustments at halftime. I really challenged Briar Evans at halftime, and I thought Briar made some good adjustments. He got a little more physical with him and it worked out to our advantage."
Key 3-pointer
With the Panthers trailing in the third quarter, senior Kainen Somers stepped up and hit a big 3-pointer to draw the Panthers closer to the Rams.
"It was crucial," Hiatt said. "We were kind of standing around and they switched off of him with the ball. That was one of the times in the game where we needed something and he buried it for us."
Somers stepped up in a big way, scoring 11 points for the Panthers despite averaging just four points per game so far this season. Somers shot 4-of-4 from the field.
"Kainen, I thought probably, had one of his best games scoring," Hiatt said. "He attacked the rim hard, which we've been waiting to see from him this year. I don't think he missed a shot from the field. He did a really good job for us. I think he's capable of doing that, and hopefully that builds up his confidence."
Hiatt also praised Zach Powers, Jay Wolfe, Ryan Cook and Trey Thomsen for their play coming off the bench in the game. Thomsen, who has started much of the year, came off the bench with Caleb Thompson getting the starting nod.
Creston returns to action Friday at Shenandoah before traveling to Nodaway Valley on Saturday.
GLENWOOD (52) — JJ Hahn 23, Grant May 16, Corey Bertini 7, Tyler Jensen 4, Gage Shatava 2.
CRESTON (60) — Colby Taylor 5 3-4 15, Briar Evans 6 2-2 14, Kainen Somers 4 0-1 11, Luke Neitzel 3 4-5 10, Trey Thomsen 2 0-0 5, Caleb Thompson 1 0-0 3, Jay Wolfe 1 0-0 2. Totals — 22 9-12 60. 3-point goals — Taylor 2, Thomsen 1, Thompson 1. Rebounds — Neitzel 7, Taylor 5, Evans 3, Ryan Cook 3. Assists — Neitzel 4, Somers 3, Taylor 2, Thomsen 2. Steals — Neitzel 2, Taylor 2, Wolfe 1. Blocked shots — Wolfe 1, Neitzel 1.
Glenwood — 22 39 47 52
Creston — 18 35 47 60
The Creston boys junior varsity team fell to 9-2 for the season with a 63-58 loss to Glenwood here on Tuesday.
The Panthers trailed by 17 points at one point in the game, but battled back to within four with about 1:00 remaining, but Glenwood's free throw shooting was enough to hold the Panthers off.
"I was proud of our effort to fight back and have a chance to win," JV coach Kritter Hayes said.
Jay Wolfe led Creston with 18 points and seven rebounds, while Alex Nielsen added 14 points and seven rebounds, and Cole Crawford scored 14 points.
Creston (58) — Jay Wolfe 18, Alex Nielsen 14, Cole Crawford 14, Christian Groumoutis 6, Cole Thompson 2, Sam Hartsock 2, Brandon Phipps 2. Rebounds — Wolfe 7, Nielsen 7. Steals — Nielsen 3.
Glenwood (63)


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Welcome to a historic night in Pittsburgh! This spectacular print takes you inside opening night at the replacement for the unique, historic, but ultimately out-of-date Igloo - the Consol Energy Center. As the puck is dropped to begin the first-ever regular-season game at the majestic arena...SNAP! The moment is preserved for all-time, and is now available for your wall.
With the usual brilliance of Rob Arra's legendary panoramic stadium photography, and the classic white-bordered Everlasting Images design, this is worthy of a nice frame and a prominent place on the wall of any true fan! It's all here, from the unique corner perspective: the fans in the stands, the images on the screens, and the action on the ice below. A truly spectacular work of photographic sports art, and a valuable collector's item for years to come - a must for the wall or collection of any true fan of Pittsburgh Penguins hockey!
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