text:
- Murshid Markan
- Faridabad
- India
This conversation is closed.
How randomness of a photon particle in a two slit experiment could explain the phenomena of Consciousness and Decision-Making
If we stress on the Thomas young's double-slit experiment in which we ought to see that the photon beam when passed through the double slit we observe the wave nature of the photon particle as we get a scattered bands pattern on the wall unlike the single-slit where we observe the particle nature of the photon as it projects a single band pattern, in this experiment we can see that the behavior of the photon as a particle or a wave is random and so is its position after passing the double slit wall. Now i would like to relate this to the consciousness, when we face a situation in our life, how we perceive or react is as random as the photon. So i would like to ask people out in TED related to the consciousness studies is that, if we work on the principles of "Orch-Or" theory that says that the quantum superposition exists till the difference in the space-time curvatures is significant. so when we think with our conscious mind firstly how we can relate different quantum state as different reactions by a human mind and how can we get a clarity in decision making when the decisions are in space-time curvatures very close to each other. Secondly, the "Copenhagen experiment" explanation of the superposition failing under observation would hinder our research of certainty of the photon's position, How can we resolve the randomness of the particle and correspondingly in my case the absolute truth (perfect decision for a situation) for the conscious human mind. An experiment by Roger Penrose FELIX states that an electron is present at two different location and by using mirrors we can get a single position of this experiment. But, How we humans can tackle the randomness of our conscious mind. What we need to practice to reduce this randomness in our mind. How we can have a definite answer for a problem in our mind. How we humans can be certain in our thoughts.
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Jun 3 2012: Murshid !
Thanks for the interesting topic !
I think Chris is right , there is no randomness as such. let's call it something like 'chaotic dynamics'. There is order in everything, but we don't have a pattern for it and can't recognise it.
",,, we can get clarity in our thoughts by increasing our consciousness (decreasing the randomness)...."
I think we can have the 'feeling' of clarity developing our imaginative consciousness.The field of ' imaginative consciousness' is not less real than the field of physical consciousness, but it is different.
It has its own logic , let's call it 'fuzzy' logic , its own laws and its own 'is-ness'. Quite literally it is a 'higher frequency ' state of consciousness and only humans ( as far as i know) can access it.
" How we humans can be certain in our thoughts."
We'd better not :)
Everything we think we know is our coherent belief system and we should hold it lightly, allowing it to change with new inputs or even let it go if it starts to collapse upon itself.
Paradoxically, being not certain gives more clarity in our mind .May 21 2012: Sub: Cosmos Quest
There lies a higher dimensional knowledge - the origins- cosmology vedas interlinks.
One should search the subjects in depth or support original works to avoid confusion.
To mislead is very easy but to identify the spirit of enlightenment needs
concentration, meditation and Dedication- prerequisites for advancement.
UNITY OF CONSCIOUSNESS-OM- IN SCIENCE, RELIGION AND PHILOSOPHY {An Introduction](Revised Feb. 2002)
(Reg No: TX 5-574-909 d/- May 14,2002 ) (No# Pages 100,Figures 17).
ISBN: 978-1-257-99508-0 publisher- LULU....ebook
COSMOLOGY VEDAS INTERLINKS-BOOKS INFORMATION May 2011
BOOKS BY VIDYARDHI NANDURI http://vidyardhicosmology.blogspot.com/Jun 9 2012: Natasha,
Yes, I think that academic politics would create resistance for my ideas, although there should be no specific objection as far as I know. There should be no functional difference between saying that we see because we actively sense matter or that we passively interpret collisions of matter, except that the former makes sense right off the bat and the latter requires some fictional abstraction layer of 'emergent property'. In the end something has to make sense of something, I only say that it really has to happen on every level or not at all, while our approach in recent years assumes that it must occur spontaneously without real explanation.
I care that it's scientific because ultimately I am trying to provide a more universal TOE, and spiritual terms tend to alienate the possibility of object legitimacy. I see subject and object as consequences of sense which divides itself into them, and the opposite, sense is the consequence of the symmetry of subject and object unity-beneath-division. I think that you can treat the universe like a material machine and it works like that, right up to the point of trying to mechanize consciousness itself. Only then does the native priority of sense before substance become scientifically relevant.
It takes a lot of words to describe why sense might be an appropriate word, but only because we are unfamiliar with the concept of a truly neutral monism. It should be unfamiliar, because we are not impartial. We experience the universe as a biological organism, so we are biased about what the universe means to us. Spirit makes it seem like the cosmos should honor the sanctity of life and meaning whereas sense only ensures that categories of experience tend to have their own momentum.
I agree Unit of Subjectivity sounds incomplete, but no more so than 'c'. It's just a framework to begin to explore the relation of quanta and qualia. I think that our mind is part of what divides and unites the two.
Thanks to you too!
Jun 10 2012: I am not really sure what you folks are talking about but I do agree that the word "spirit" is not very helpful at this juncture in time, loaded as it is with religious connotations.
I have a little challenge for you. Someone once said, "An idea that requires polysyllabic words to describe it, is probably not an idea worth describing." That is a bit of a stretch but, can you spell it out in layman's terms? Call it an exercise you will eventually need to do to get your interesting ideas across to the general public.
Cheers and keep up the exploration!
Jun 10 2012: Hi Mike,
How about this.
1. The universe will seem to support either faith or reason. Reason requires belief in disbelief and faith requires disbelief in disbelief. In between reason and faith is reality, but neither reason without faith nor faith without reason can make sense of everything. The insistence that it can is ultimately a bias that tends to become crazy and dangerous if acted upon completely in real life.
2. All of the shortcomings of religion and science can be accounted for by each side mistaking objects for subjects and subjects for objects.
3. We can fix this by looking at how we look at the universe, so that we take our own experience more literally and physical existence more figuratively. Photons become nothing but atomic experiences. Consciousness becomes the physical inertia of events which tie body, brain, world, and lifetime together.
4. Consciousness is what divides the universe into symmetrical parts. It separates being, doing, and time and matter, energy, and space. This division makes it so that the former are presented as interior and ranging widely in quality, realism, and meaning while the latter is presented as exterior, real, and meaningless.
5. This division replaces the idea of the Big Bang as an event in time and space, so that the Big Bang is the division of the universe into subjective times in objective places.
Jun 11 2012: Hi, Craig !
Let's simplify, hope you don't mind :)
We are consciousness that says: " I am not consciousness that thinks"
We are creatures that think /see/observe in Time, but it is not where the real action is.Jun 11 2012: Mike !
The question is not why science should use symbols, like 'spirit', the question is : why shouldn't it ?
What is science in its essence if not the empirical observation of Spirit ? :)
Jun 13 2012: Hi Natasha and Craig. I am having semantic overload! I thought science was the empirical observation of matter and energy. If spirit is another word for matter and energy then it is a metaphor. A lovely and well-intentioned metaphor to be sure. As I see it the biggest stumbling block with science is/are pompous ass scientists who insist that what we cannot yet measure does not exist. And conversely the biggest problem with faithists is that they insist that there are things that exist without any proof to back it up (the Flying Spaghetti Monster for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster ).
And maybe this is what you two are talking about...
I certainly lean towards the material world because I notice definite cause and effects that I can't deny. There are a million examples, whereas the spirit, sense or faith aspects of life are contextual and subjective. More like feelings or intuition or dreams; they exist but are difficult to measure and know for certain. Even our own feelings and intuitions; much less those of others.
What if Natasha the "real action" actually is in Time and the rest just a dream. Your dream. You are operating on theories and hunches aren't you? For some reason I am reminded of Zeno's paradoxes. How do they fit in with these theories.
Forgive me if my questions are naive.Jun 13 2012: Hi, Mike !
I agree with you and Craig that the word 'spirit ' does not quite fit to the scientific context, because of its religious connotation and 'vague' descriptive quality.
Is 'exotic' particle, " spooky action in a distance ", god's ( 'god damn ' ) particle or ghost particle any better ?
"What if Natasha the "real action" actually is in Time and the rest just a dream. Your dream."
I'll have no problems with accepting your version, if you can help me with the definition of the word 'real' in Time frame reference.
What is real in illusion ? :)
" You are operating on theories and hunches aren't you? "
Maybe....with slight correction though, I test theories by intuition.
Certainty is a kind of impossible condition for intuition, but it provides you with 'bigger' picture where interconnectedness of everything is clearly seen in a dim image .Mind on the other hand, demands certainty and instead has the turtles all the way down or up, which pretty much the same.
So, there are no answers only choices.
"I certainly lean towards the material world ..."
What is matter ? How particles get their mass ?
Thanks for your 'naive ' questions and forgive me for mine ! :)
Jun 13 2012: I was listening to this music video as I read your reply and it brought me to tears.
Somehow the two have meaning and relevance to my "spirit"... which I can't and don't want to explain. You wrote about this in another post about the opera I think.... Some things defy explanation in spite of the innate desire we have to find answers. Some things blur the boundaries, or perhaps fit only in the Big Tent of Integral Theory. Some things I have to accept I will never know. Uncertainty seems so much more certain than certainty (of which I am uncertain). Back to the paradoxical aspects of being a brain in a vat.... how can we know?
I am enjoying this dialogue. Thank youJun 13 2012: Natahsa
"Is 'exotic' particle, " spooky action in a distance ", god's ( 'god damn ' ) particle or ghost particle any better ?"
Brava! Brava! Brava!!!Jun 13 2012: WOW ! John Butler is great ! But I don't hear Ocean there, it sounds like 'zigest' watched through the eyes of an infant :)
Thanks for the link !Jun 11 2012: Craig !
Sure, you are right whatever you choose, it's your thing...
I like this :
" Fiction is primordial, fact is contrived."
But how have you come up with it ? !
I guess, it's my problem, I don't quite understand your retina/ rod/ glutamate description.
BTW, what do you think about the 'third eye', pineal gland ? Pineal cytostructure have similar retinal cells, and you know about its divine status in ancient sacred traditions; the mind behind the matrix.
Almost literally, it sees !Jun 9 2012: Photons then, and the double-slit experiment give us this continuum of religious-figurative-metaphorical-subjective to empirical-literal-logical-objective condensed into very limited terms. We are squeezing the cosmos as hard as we can, backing it into a corner and demanding that it show us what and how, but all it's giving us is upside down hints at our own who and why. It refuses to answer our query because we are asking the wrong question.
Why this is the case I think is because the who and the why are not a reality that 'simply is' but rather the ground of being, the meta-fact which can only 'seem like'. 'Seems like' is an invitation for direct participation, which is an essential, irreducible, and materially unexplainable property of the cosmos. 'Simply is' can be derived as a second order logic of 'seems like', being experiences that consistently seem, in some way, like they seemed before every time we check.
The double slit experiment, entanglement, decoherence... all of these are upside down terms for sense. Sense is the missing insight that ties cosmos, psyche, mind, body, time-space-matter-energy-information-theology together.Jun 9 2012: (continued)
Consider that all observations of photons have only ever been through measuring their indirect effects on the matter which makes up our instruments (even the eyes and brains of the humans using the instruments, as well as our native optical sensors).
Consider that light is not photons. Visual perception is quite removed from photons, relying on the concept of 'signals' to propagate 'information' about the optical environment. In reality our optic nerve is detecting synaptic glutamate concentration, opsin topology, or changes to retinal isomers more than photons. Our ability to dream and imagine in darkness shows that indeed, no external photons at all are necessary to generate realistic images in our awareness.
What is a signal? It's an anthropomorphic conceit really. We see synchronized behaviors on various levels, molecular, cellular, psychological, and we assume a sequential process of production. We talk about electromagnetism as if it were a physical presence in a vacuum, but we have only ever seen it in matter. Without matter to reflect, diffract, reflect light, or to be illuminated by light, there is nothing to see. No sparks or light rays in a vacuum. No accumulations of errant photons in pools or crusts. Energy may in fact be nothing but 'things that happen to matter' - stories that matter tells.
Some stories are very literal and unambiguous, and become more so the further into the microcosm and macrocosm you go...until you hit the Classical limit, and then...it all flips anti-Copernican and becomes very Zen, with virtual this and Dark that. Particle waves and anti-matter.
Other stories are the opposite. Not about spinning objects inside of larger whirling ensembles, but about characters and destiny. Super-signifying epics full of arch-symmetry, poetry, and deep metaphor. Fiction blurs into literalism and fantasy turns solemn, reverent and monastic as formalism emerges to re-link (rel-ligion) the figurative with the literal.Jun 9 2012: I have a different conjecture on consciousness and its relation to physics which involves completely reinterpreting the last century or so of physics. There's no way that I can talk about this without sounding like a crackpot, and in the sense that I have no formal qualifications or skill in physics, I am a crackpot, but I suspect that I may actually turn out to be a 'crackpot that was right' in the long run.
In my defense I can only say that I have come to physics through the backdoor, from consciousness and a lifetime of studying it first hand, from scratch, even avoiding most philosophy. /disclaimer
Here it is:
Photons may not exist.
What exists is the sensitivity to changes in matter. Sensitivity across a vacuum, sensitivity on top of sensitivity, on top of insensitivity...all manner of layers and symmetries of sensemaking and significance.
I know, I can feel your eyes rolling from here. "What about the photoelectric effect? What about lasers and Feynman and photomultipliers..supercolliders...the whole Standard Model?? You are an idiot! We know photons exist. Quantum Mechanics is the most successful theory in the history of physics!'
I agree, and I may be an idiot too, but not because of this idea. I have spoken to a number of people about this, and while physics professors tend to become very angry, none of them has said anything to make me doubt my proposal (not surprising for a crackpot - but I mean I have not heard any argument yet that I have not already considered). I'm not married to the idea. My concept of a cosmos that is fundamentally grounded in sense experience rather than matter across space or information processing does not depend on photons being real or not, but they become redundant and explainable if we consider the possibility of primordial detection-response (I call it Quorum Mechanics) capacities associated with matter. To be precise, it is a capacity which is ontologically perpendicular to matter-in-space. It is sense-through-time.
Jun 9 2012: Craig !
You don't sound like a crackpot !: )
I think, a 'backdoor' is quite an entrance to quantum physics.
Stripped of all complexities it can be reduced to mystic insight :
" The knower is the known"
There is nothing really exists but relationships.
The universe is an answer, we need to find a right question.
What you call 'sense' is usually called 'spirit', would you agree that it sounds pretty familiar then:
SPIRIT is the missing insight that ties cosmos, psyche, mind, body, time-space-matter-energy-information-theology together.
" Energy may in fact be nothing but 'things that happen to matter' - stories that matter tells." ( !!!!!! )
And matter is ???
The Svetasvatara Upanisad says:
satamsah sadrsatmakah
jivah suksma-svarupo 'yam
sankhyatito hi cit-kanah
'If we divide the tip of a hair into a hundred parts and then take one of these parts and divide it again into a hundred parts, that very fine division is the size of but one of the numberless living entities. They are all cit-kana, particles of spirit, not matter.'
So... Energy may be nothing but things that happen to spirit ...
Does it make any sense ? :)
Thank you !
Jun 9 2012: Hi Natasha,
Thanks, and yes, the word Spirit is another way of describing it, but I think that word is too loaded to be accepted as scientific truth. Although spirit captures the connotations of subjectivity, feeling, enthusiasm, trans-material, immortal, and primordial, it is off-center to my purposes in that it can denote absolute disconnection with material, and a reification of temporal experience into a kind of pseudo-physical force that literally travels through space causing things to happen from an omniscient perspective. I think it's more subtle and complicated.
While sense isn't a great substitute, I think it has some advantages: (See http://multisenserealism.com/9-sense-motive/). It connotes first person subjectivity on different levels, sensation-perception-understanding-intuition, but remains neutral as far as giving privilege to either concretely ordinary experience or profound, supernatural concepts. Sense is embodied by natural qualities as well as intellectual abstraction. It links information with real world participation.
"cit-kana" nice. I would like to formalize these concepts in a way that might be more easily integrated into Western frameworks. Cit-jana I would call maximally flattened, ie fragmented qualia (or quanta) at what I would call the Planck-Turing limit. I have a proposal to describe subjectivity on a scale from maximal qualia (the Totality, Monad, or greatest possible inertial frame, the eternal moment, Sri Krsna, Ein Sof, Tao, Zero Point Field, etc) to minimal that I am calling the Chalmeroff Scale (http://multisenserealism.com/2012/04/14/proposed-unit-of-subjectivity-the-chalmeroff/).
I use the terms sense and motive as the essential principles, which correlate to
spirit and will (anthropomorphic level)
electric and magnetic fields (but inside out)
matter/density/inertia/formation and energy/acceleration/transformation
significance/symmetry/augmentation and entropy/mystery/cancellation as 'informational' consequences
Jun 9 2012: Craig,
correct me if I am wrong, I guess your theory is consistent with the general body of scientific knowledge, as you understand it, but because it attempts to reach a deeper level of knowing than that mapped out by the scientific 'theorem method' of step-by-step reasoning, its conclusions may not be fully explicable in terms of the current scientific mindset and most likely will be rejected by it.
Why should you care how 'scientific' it looks like ?
You need tons of words to explain what is 'sense' in the context of your context, while one word is enough. Spirit is a symbol, it does not imply that it is not real. It is maybe one real force carrier for weak and strong... and gravity. Sounds weired, but at the moment, I don't have any other picture .
You are right , it is heavily loaded with 'supernatural' connotation and this connotation should be removed, there is nothing supernatural, nothing is external anywhere.But 'spirit' conveys reverence and it is perfectly natural feeling, when we are dealing with a mystery .
Symbol, be it 'spirit' or 'god' resonates, this means that one may access the ideas they reflect without mediation.
I could be wrong :)
'Unit of subjectivity' sounds a bit incomplete :) In the realm where there is no objectivity, there is no subjectivity either, one exists only by the virtue of the other.
When subjectivity enters the picture, you need to balance it and introduce the 'unit of objectivity'.... So, it must be simply a unit. A quantum is the minimum unit of any physical or not physical entity involved in an interaction, it is subjective and objective (or neither) by itself. But it doesn't give this sensation of 'spirit' as cit-kanah does. I think, human brain is designed to retain narratives, symbols not words.
Frankly, I don't know, but i believe , that 'it's our mind, which is moving"
" is it the wind moving or is it the flag? The monk answers, neither, its your mind that is moving. "
Thanks for responding !Jun 11 2012: Chris !
Actually, it was you who opened me to the idea ... Tease out the cryptic messages of ancient sacred texts and you'll see science there.
Thank you !!!
John Dunbar
Jun 8 2012: The truth is, there is absolutely no way to make sure that there isn't a problem in the mind. Everything is generated by the brain including perception, logic, the quantum world, any and all subjective experience. The debate comes into play when the question is raised, is consciousness a product of the brain? I of course do not have an answer that is provable. When you get into these arcane arguments what really happens is you get differences based on the individuals view of human nature. One side seems to pervert quantum physics to fit their world view, that everything is connected and after death we all go back to the original source of matter and sit in some blissful homeostasis. The other side sees human nature as being very susceptible to making things true that we either need to be true based on the life we have built, or we must believe in order to sooth neurosis.
- +1
When tackling consciousness I would like to use the analogy the eye can't see the eye. What I mean by that is if your looking for consciousness with your own consciousness, then you can never really be sure what you have found is actually what consciousness is. The hunter can't be the hunted. Its similar to the idea of introspection. You cannot fully see your own thoughts why? Because your seeing those thoughts with different thoughts that are all originating from the same place, the brain. You just can't get outside of that. Someone else can see something about you that you cannot, but similarly since we can't trade consciousness with one another, they can never fully understand you either. This just seems to be a truth of this existence. If there is an answer to this then I think neuroscience holds the key, but remember when tackling this topic everything you experience is governed by the brain.May 16 2012: i researched it a little on wikipedia, and here is my take on this. they are talking about the brain being a quantum computer instead of a turing machine. this would allow the brain to solve problems faster than a turing machine could. it is neat, but we have two problems with it. first, it is just an idea, and has no evidence backing it up in any way. nil. second, it has nothing to do with consciousness. consciousness is not speed or ability to solve problems in a particular computational complexity class. or penrose suggests that if we build a quantum computer, it will become conscious? i doubt so. this entire consciousness idea is just added on to sell the story better.
May 17 2012: Hey you researched on wiki... your first part says that brain being a quantum computer... see every element in this world can be classified into.... classical world (Physically visible) and the quantum world (physically undetectable).... now if we say that our brain is a quantum computer then there should be some relevance in saying that it has all the quantum world elements in an atom.. if you agree on that then you should also know that they will behave in the same way inside or outside the body... so when we have consciousness inside the body we can create consciousness outside the body..... but do anything in this world have consciousness as the human do have.... i think no.. that would be the answer.. but have you ever studied plants... photosynthesis... it involves light means photons.. means quantum world.. menas there can be consciousness there also...
Penrose is working hard to get the solution to the randomness we find in the characteristics of photon... and if he succeeds in solving it and gets a definite position of a photon at a particular moment of time... then we might get the same in our mind... means we can get clarity in our thoughts by increasing our consciousness (decreasing the randomness).... here comes the answer for this problem in human mind respect...
We need to build a strong consciousness... that means we need to build microtubules larger than before we want enormous amount of information flow in our mind and stores in these long tubes of information... the microtubules..
People start working on the consciousness to get close to enormous information... may be we get close to positive poles by this...May 17 2012: As far as the human brain is concerned, it is merely a tool or hardware. When we talk of a technological system we see that any tech. system works on a combination of HW, SW and Power. Therefore for the human system, the hardware is the body, the software is the consciousness and the spirit is the source of energy. Any technological is having two parts, the front end and the back end. We may relate the front end to the classical mechanics where we get the reduced and approximate singular results and then the back end where all the computation is done where there are options with different probabilities as the Quantum Mechanics. So now how can an electron or any subatomic particle at a particular instant of time mathematically be present at more that one position. Every particle in the classical world is having aligned with it a wave envelope which is a probability distribution. In the pre action state, the mathematics shows several possibilities and as soon as the action takes place, all the results are reduced to a single point or the particle is said to be a only one point at that instant. Which shows a collapse of the wave function. Therefore as and when the decision is made, the rest of the possibilities collapse. It is very important to understand that what ever occurs in the classical world is a reduced and simplified result of the enormous amount of computation which takes place in the quantum world or the back end of the physical system. In technological systems we use programming languages such as assembly, Cobol or C++. God does not use C++ for the cosmic programming. He uses the particle, wave and time to do all the computation. He has his benchmark which I refer to as the Quantum Desired and then the action or the option which we choose as the Quantum Actual. Therefore Quantum Desired-Quantum Actual is the Performance of an individual. A quantum computer will never be conscious as consciousness is not in the tool.May 16 2012: Mind is not an entity, it is a construct. There is not relationship between reality of an electron & an assumption which is a thought. Our mind behaves depending upon several factors such as context, personality & stimulus. A relative change in one factor could present several possibilities. We have yet to figure out the functioning of human brain.
May 17 2012: Gurinder might be you haven't studied the functioning of human brain... Try this.. Human brain is full of nerve cells, synapse, neurons and most importantly a cyto-skeleton... We have microtubules inside the cyto-skeleton.
Now, if we discuss about the microtubules these are the combination of protein tubulins and these carry the photons of information charge... the microtubules form and disintegrate on its own... the time between the making and the disintegration is the time we have charges of consciouness or the flow of truth or the real information...
When the doctor gives you anesthesia he actually stop the making of these microtubules and hence you loose consciousness....
This is one part of my answer...
The other part says..
when our human mind contains neurons, charge (electrons), photons then how our brain different form the other atoms and composite elements of atom in the world.
the photons or electrons in our brain should work in the same way as the photons, electrons outside our human mind should work..
May 17 2012: Murshid your views are too presumptive. Are you a neuro-scientist or a doctor to speak on the subject with such authority? If so i would agree with you completely as i am a Marketing Professor not a scientist. I have also known that living & non-living matter are two different entities & incomparable. I am fairly imaginative person but such juxtaposition looks too far fetched flight of imagination.
May 17 2012: The study of human brain in terms of anesthesia where consciousness is absent... is very minutely done by Prof. Stuart Hameroff an Anesthesia Expert. I have used those excerpts to explain you the idle mind functioning in terms of information flow through microtubules.Jun 8 2012: Neuroscientists and doctors are by necessity dependent on current and past knowledge, keeping their skills safe and dependable. It gives the impression of absolute authority and certainty.
But is there any such thing as certainty? Future knowledge as yet has no roots in our consciousness, so has to depend on something other than what science gives us, in order to courageously depict 'what could be', rather than to safely grasp 'what is'.
It is precisely the "far-fetched flights of imagination" that moves idle, stagnating knowledge into new territory.May 15 2012: The double slit experiment has nothing to do with how the brain works.
And neural activity is never random.
All this is pseudo-science, hasty conclusions to mysterious phenomena, and yet another attempt to reconcile sex-life and protons, happiness and gravity, etc...
May 21 2012: Gerald.. my motive here is to get the information about the way the double slit experiment makes us to come up with some mathematical conclusions on the certainty of the photon particle at a moment of time... when we see the brain activity in terms of the microtubule protein tubulins showing the quantum states switching according to the ORCH-OR theory then we can relate the quantum state switching of the photon being a particle or a wave and being a wave we can determine the position of the photon particle at a moment in the wave structure.
The point can be explained here with some relevance shown to the brain activity that are defined under the protein tubulins... if we somehow reduce the quantum state switching in the brain as per the ORCH-OR theory says the BING !! the moment the superposition is reduced and we get a one state microtubule that state the certainty of the protein tubulin can be deduced..
So i want to relate the double slit experiment to give brain quantum states of protein tubulin a certainty and hence consciousness attained..Jun 15 2012: Apologies for arriving late.
If you are interested I've made plenty of comments on TED on both consciousness and quantum mechanics.
The gist is:-
People are objects that perceive and therefore experience is expressed as "I perceive X" and NOT as "I have consciousness of X". Consciousness does not exist. The idea arises from a misunderstanding of the concept of perception.
If we analyse the real then a genuine explanation will be in terms of something not-real for otherwise the explanation is circular of infinitely regressive. We see because of light but light itself cannot be seen or visualised in principle. The traditional confusion in interpreting quantum mechanics is the futile attempt to explain the real in terms of itself.Jun 13 2012: "I visualize a vast grid of 0-1 flip flop grid squares whose pattern of 0 (dark) and 1 (light) changes constanly. 0 is irrational or untrue belief. 1 is rational or true. The patterns are intricate. The aggregate of dark squares at any one nanoseconed is the "streak of the irrational" in the "world soul"**. 0/1, strife/love, false/true, yin/yang, form II/form I. But consider: the irrational (false) beliefs generate objectified thought-formations although untrue! So irreal reality is repeatedly generated."-Philip K. Dick.
**PlatoJun 11 2012: I feel the human mind is more than the sum of its parts. Consciousness is a ghost or phantom of the mechanical operation of the brain much the same as stereo is a phantom reallity for hi-fi speakers.
The higher order level thinking a particular brain is capable of the stronger the illusion of self conciousness. I don't think this has anything to do with the co-operation of the left and right side of the brain.
The type of brain that a human is born with is naturally robust in forming this illusion...as only mechanical operations can be.
So, can this phantom or illusion be considered an actual reality...or must something be solid, present, definable by it's parts befor it can be considered real? If we had a definite answer to that then mabye we would have a way forward to encapturing the essence of consciousness.
Of course all this is just an idea that just popped into my head...the ghost in the machine at work!Jun 8 2012: Why would you want to reduce the randomness of your mind? Without it you would be a machine. Randomness is the juicy stuff of life. Imagination, creativity, evolutionary mutation, etc
Cause and effect is a fairly practical tool to utilize but emergent properties blur the lines. Cause and effect are only meaningful terms when "framed" with a context which focuses our attention in a particular way. Everything can be traced back to the Big Bang as the original cause.
The cause of Chris's more esoteric views is the sum of his experiences in life. The effect is his attempts to convince Krisztian. And vice versa...
In my solipsistic worldview I am creating both of you for my entertainment! Prove me wrong!
Nothing can be known for absolute certain but probability means some things are very reliable, like gravity and death. I think science is the practice of trying to create a little more certainty, as opposed to speculation and belief.Jun 8 2012: I don't think we make decisions the way you describe them. Well you don't actually describe them, but you sprinkle magic all over neural activity. If computation was so complicated, it'd be hell to programm a video game.
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Jun 1 2012: and how do we know that?
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Jun 1 2012: i can name you like hundreds of things that might have random elements, including a toss of a coin. but you said it is a fact. facts are not proven by lack of counterexample. your task is to prove. until than, this is just a unbacked claim.
Comment deleted
Jun 1 2012: and how do we know that? you just repeated your claim.
as of now, it is an open question whether randomness exists in the universe or not. but most physicists subscribe to the idea that it does. so if you know otherwise, time to tell.Jun 3 2012: Hi, Krisztián,
what we call 'rendom' is really a lack of information or a matter of ignorance. It is synonymous with :
we don't know, it is outside the scope of our models."
"... If one knew the initial force of one's thumb on the coin, its interaction with the air molecules, its reaction to the force of gravity, etc., the path of the coin would be predetermined from a unique solution of its equation of motion. Thus, one would know in advance if it would land head or tail."
But we do not know all of these details and in our ignorance it looks like random.
Jun 3 2012: at least you believe so. but physics does not. as of now, the question is open. but most physicists believe that quantum processes are truly random, not just apparently random.Jun 3 2012: What you've said is also true :)
The classical coin-toss and the quantum double slit interference
experiments are explained using the involvement of the observer.
The results are unpredictable, but doesn't mean that "quantum processes are truly random "
Jun 3 2012: as i said, true randomness is widely believed, as a consequence of bell's theorem
Comment deleted
Jun 4 2012: if something is widely believed among physicists, the opposite of that hardly can be called a fact, or something we just need to "accept". prove it.Jun 4 2012: Krisztian !
Again, you are right, but not quite right :)
Bell's theorem disproved the idea of locality. What Einstein called ''spooky action at a distance '' appeared to be a feature of nature or cosmos
( order).
Random walk in quantum physics turned to be a new type of phenomenon called 'quantum walk'.
If you are interested you may check out here
Jun 4 2012: don't look at the consequences. the bell theorem has a very direct fundamental meaning. it says quantum theory can not be random only because it is a statistical description of reality. there can be no possible reality behind quantum theory that is fully nonrandom. that is the bell theorem.
if we subscribe to that, we should conclude that our world is indeed random. it is its nature.
however, arthur fine presented an argument that the measurements supporting bell's theorem might be flawed. if they indeed are, the bell theorem might be false, and the door is reopened to non-random models of the world.Jun 4 2012: I don't understand why we should wait till somebody open/close/reopen any door to our world we inhabit and can observe and experience !
As it was said: we test ourselves ! It means, that we know intuitively what we need to be explained rationally.
"As above, so below" was said not by rational mind and not for rational mind, you can sense truth here and science could be very helpful backing it up .
What can you say about this mind blowing video ?
It reminds me the zen koan : is it the wind moving or is it the flag? The monk answers, neither, its your mind that is moving.
Jun 4 2012: people can't open doors. facts can. observations, measurements can. one can believe that bananas are purple. but a wise man accepts that it is yellow. so far, our experiments told us that the world is random. fine pointed out that we might interpret the data wrongly. for that reason, the video does not blow my mind, since i believe that quantum processes are nonrandom, but rather deterministic. i'm fine-ian, if you will. they fail to mention in the video that the detection rate of individual photons are like 5% max. so it is perfectly possible that we only detect cases with certain properties, selected by the arrangement of the experiment. it is possible that 50% behaved like particles, 50% behaved like waves, but the particles are non-detectable by such an arrangement. we don't know why or how, but we need near-100% detection rate to rule biased sampling out.
no, we can not sense truth. we can, on a level, sense our own mental frames. but we surely can't feel how objects work in the universe. the universe continues to show us how weird it is. in the universe, time is dependent on speed, particles can be two places at the same time, mindless processes create structure and things like that. our universe is queer.
http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_dawkins_on_our_queer_universe.htmlJun 8 2012: Hi, Krisztian !
I don' reject your views :)
"...only logic and observations can tell true and false apart. so you can believe, if you want, that no reasoning can have any effect on me."
SOCRATES : What Plato is about to say is false.
PLATO : Socrates has spoken truly.
It is self-referential conundrum that shows the limitation of logic and reasoning.
There is no 'true' or 'false', but different descriptions of the same thing on different levels of understanding ,like Newton's gravity as a force and Einstein's curvature of spacetime.
The question remains though : what are the force carriers ? So, we are dealing with effect, having no idea about the cause. To suggest that effect appeared from randomness would contradict logic, everyday experience and yes , intuition.
"...no, we can not sense truth."
I can :)
And I am a perfectly ordinary human being, I can't know the truth, for you can't stop being hungry smelling the food. But such moments deeply colour the thinking and bring some clarity, the correspondences become obvious, and you start to see how everything, I do mean ,everything is connected. The very idea of randomness kisses you goodbye :).
BTW, no contradiction with science here, for randomness in science is defined as 'not useful information', hence it is not absence of order but absence of recognition.
How I can prove 'order' ?
- Quantum entanglement.( maybe:) Cause and effect is one thing, they are bound together and separated by by spacetime, which is 'samsara' illusion of the mind. Squeezed between cause and effect in no real space and time in its own illusion mind has invented randomness , funny, isn't it ?
And let's not call it 'debate', i don't state anything, we are just thinking on line and share our thoughts and I am grateful for your sharing.
Thanks !Jun 4 2012: Measurements are subjective ! I mean they depend on the frame of reference. A datum is born when wave function of 'knowing' is collapsed in favour of a particle, mind traps it in time hence makes it real. It is interpreted and becomes the 'fact', there is no such thing as an uninterpreted ' objective' fact.
OK, Krisztian, as it was said many times: everyone is on his own path.
Good luck with yours !
Thanks for the conversation !
Comment deleted
Jun 7 2012: there are two sides of this coin. in a debate, it is not enough to point out that the opponent don't want to accept your views. you are just as much reject his. only logic and observations can tell true and false apart. so you can believe, if you want, that no reasoning can have any effect on me. but you could at least try. so far, i saw no reasoning, only claims.
Comment deleted
Jun 7 2012: easy questions:
1. have no idea.
2. have no idea, but i'm almost sure the question does not make sense
however. as a buddhist, i'm aware that there is a thing called samsara. for simplicity, we can call it "world". samsara is the thing we see if we look around. does randomness exist in samsara? i don't know. it might exist. it might not. there are people who dedicated their lives to study samsara. they claim that things look like there is randomness in it. it is not sure.
however. you claimed that you know there is no randomness. so it is a good time for you to prove that. are you up to it?
Comment deleted
Jun 8 2012: in short, if i don't see it on my own, you can not show it to me. in even shorter, you can not show it. that's my point. you can only list a lot of sources that also don't contain any attempt to prove, they only assert. and a thousand assertions does not suddenly become an argument.
and one more note: i don't say there is no cause and effect. i say you can not prove that there is no randomness in the world. see the difference?
Comment deleted
Jun 8 2012: Hi, Chris !
It so resonates with my understanding (!!!), though I don't know a half of what you do !
Thank you very much !!!
P.S. I think, science is changing and changing fast. "queer" and "random" are just middle terms between 'objectivity ' and 'reverence' , 'wonder' .
We are approaching the Age of Reason. I truly believe so :)


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Lincolnup – Subsubtropical 2
Since being in San Francisco I've watched my native Pacific Northwest begin to flourish as place for forward-thinking dance music. Just recently Nguzunguzu duo graced stages in both Seattle and Portland, and New Years will see a visit from uk producer and co-owner of the Hessle Audio label Ramadanman. These two artists are among 2010′s best new producers, each with their own take on what it means to be related to genres like house, uk garage, or r&b.
As much as these artists deserve our brightest accolades, so too do the promoters and DJs who play host to them. Often these individuals will make little to no money, play to empty crowds, or be driven from their venues due to any number of unfortunate circumstances. One such outfit of bass ambassadors is the Bubblin' crew located in Portland, Oregon. Made up of DJs Ben Tactic (of the Tactic production duo with co-producer Brent Tactic) and Lincolnup, Bubblin' has single-handedly injected faith into the hearts of Portland clubgoers.
This mix, from Lincolnup, is one that reminds the west coast (and the world) that U.S. cities are representing for a new world order of international, inter-webbed, and intergalactic sounds that undoubtedly point to the future. Mixed live, Lincolnup blends everything from Tribal Guarachero hero Erick Rincon to equally teenage Northwest-native Cedaa's Juke inspired rhythms.
Check Lincolnup's tracklist and download the mix from the Bubblin' Soundcloud below. And keep an eye on Bubblin' and the Northwest-family in 2011 as their ripples will surely continue to be felt.
Lincolnup – Subsubtropical 2
[soundcloud url="http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/7017975" params="show_comments=true&auto_play=false&color=00ffee" width="100%" height="81" ]
01. Emmerson and Nehuen "Cocoa Rain"
02. KingThing "Rio She Said"
03. Kashii "Nether Where ft. Simon Lord (Mensah remix)"
04. Velour : Kick It Til It Breaks
05. Helixir : Ride The Wind
06. Warrior One : Lord Of Bashy (Doc Daneeka 2 Step Militia remix)
07. Altered Natives : Bullet Blade Knuckle Slap
08. Gallons : The Crying Man
09. Erick Rincon : Satisfaction
10. Alan Javier : Calambria 2010
11. Erick Rincon : Muevelo y Goza
12. Maxwell : Bad Habits (Dave Nada Club Mix)
13. Supra 1 : Ghoster
14. Shortstuff & Mickey Pearce : Tripped Up (Ramadanman Re-Edit)
15. Terror Danjah : I'm Feelin U
16. Distal & HxdB : Typewriter Tune
17. Cedaa : Hypnotiq
18. Glass Actor : Komodo
19. Pony Pony Run Run : Walking On A Line (French Fries remix)
20. Makongo : Angolan Kung Fu (Dubbel Dutch remix)
22. Clubroot : Dulcet (Bryan Zentz remix)
23. Kromestar : Love

subset: commoncrawl


text:
The X-Men Return To X-Factor
X-Factor Investigations faces dangers from all sides and in X-Factor #23, it's about to get worse for this team of private investigators! Written by the acclaimed Peter David and featuring the lush pencils of Pablo Raimondi, the penultimate chapter of "The Isolationist" answers the question on the minds of fans since last issue's shocking final page: is Layla Miller going to survive? Unfortunately for her, that answer hinges on the decision of a special guest-star who would like nothing more than to see her dead-and now it may happen! Meanwhile, the X-Men pay X-Factor a visit, but the last time they met it didn't end well. Why are the X-Men back? And what does it mean for X-Factor? One thing's for sure-it all leading


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Recipe by Chef John
"This recipe will hopefully give you the proper techniques to turn out perfect mashed potatoes every time; always light, fluffy and lump-free."
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3 large
russet potatoes, peeled and cut in half lengthwise
1/4 cup
1/2 cup
whole milk
salt and ground black pepper to taste
Classic! This is THE method to use for really good mashed potatoes. It is essential to add salt to the cooking water - oh and start with cool water - bring to temp and then reduce the heat so the water just simmers, not boils. This way the taters cook evenly. Thanks for posting this Chef John.
These potatoes come out well (and the instructions make them very easy to make), but they are bland. I learned the hard way that my family expects more to mashed potatoes. If you like good, old fashioned "just potatoes" then this is definitely the recipe for you.
392 Ratings
Thank you to Chef John for making the video. I couldn't figure out why I kept getting starchy water until he explained the method of cutting the potatoes lengthwise vs. cutting into cubes. I ran out of whole milk, so I used buttermilk. Plus, to make them extra creamy, I added 3 tbs. of sour cream.
By making those adjustments to the recipe, I'll just say that they were such a hit at thanksgiving dinner, all we had to take home was the container I brought them to dinner in!
Fluffy, flavorful clouds in my mouth. And so easy. Followed exactly except used 1% milk (was on hand). As for the masher, my sister has our Mother's which he recommends, so I used mine which he doesn't like. Still, the potatoes were wonderful!!! His video shows the techniques very clearly. Find at foodwishes.com.
Thank you Chef John! I got so tired of watery mashed potatoes that I started buying the Bob Evans in the refrigerated area of the grocery. My husband couldn't believe it, I told him I had yet to make any better than Bob. That is until now! I made these last night with some country steak and gravy and they were delicious! I did just as the recipe called except I only had 2% milk so that is what I used. Luckily I already had the right potato masher and not one of those other weird looking objects that Chef John was showing in the video NOT to use! Thanks again, I'm planning on making your mushroom gravy this evening to have with some more mashed potatoes and meatloaf! We can't wait!
Have been making MP Chef John's way ever since I saw his video several years ago. Perfect fluffy clouds of potato heaven every time. If you are rice challenged check out his site for perfect rice.
Thanks for posting this video as I needed something simple to follow for my office Thanksgiving Potluck. I waited until about 11pm the night before the potluck, before getting this going, so a lot of the pointers like how to cut them in halves helped out in the process for boiling them. Along with what masher to get which I picked up the same style one Chef John recommended, and the other little pointers given, all a big help in keeping me moving along with the prepping, and cooking, and mashing (at the ridiculous hour I was cooking these!) I made just over 10 lbs so I got done about 1:30am! All around a big thanks for the informative video.
Russet Potata!!! I love how he says it. This guy's personality is awesome. "What the hell is that?" ..."Two Laps ...Restrain Yourself" ! Thanks Chef John.
This really is the simplest and tastiest way to make mashed potatoes. I like to use warmed evaporated milk instead of whole milk. This recipe makes the fluffiest potatoes. NOTE: This is also good with a couple cloves of homemade roasted garlic.
* Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet.
Chef John's Perfect Mashed Potatoes
Serving Size: 1/4 of a recipe
Servings Per Recipe: 4
Amount Per Serving
Calories: 333
Calories from Fat: 115
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Very salty boiling water is the key to these flavorful baby potatoes.


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There are plenty of unofficial barometers in life to give us little hints that we're getting older. One of the saddest is being just a little too old to hightail it off for sleepaway camp. While we won't be sharing cabins with strangers or sleeping on the bottom bunk anymore, we can still dress the part. Enter: Book of Deer.
The spring collection is clearly influenced by the best of camp — including the firefly-collecting and the Girl Scouting — what with its uniform-like silhouettes and animal embroideries. Dream of roasting marshmallows and pitching tents when the weather turns? Thanks to Book of Deer, you can wear your wishes on your tailored blouse. There's even an awesome glow-in-the-dark print — inspired by all of the poor lightning bugs we trapped in our younger years — which is the ultimate sartorial add-on to any campsite. Now, if only you still had Jared's phone number so you could see if he's up for a quick walk around the lake..holding hands, of course. (Made Different)
Photo: Courtesy of Book of Deer


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If you can dream it, you can do it. -Walt Disney
Quality is a great business plan. -John Lasseter
Let's make some funny pictures. -Tex Avery
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. -Howard Zinn
When critics sit in judgment it is hard to tell where justice leaves off and vengeance begins. -Chuck Jones
And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul? -Jesus
A man should never neglect his family for business. -Walt Disney
What's most important in animation is the emotions and the ideas being portrayed. -Ralph Bakshi
Once you have heard a strange audience burst into laughter at a film you directed, you realize what the word joy is all about. -Chuck Jones
Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water. -Buddhist Proverb
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Comic Book Character Atempt
Showcase your drawings, illustrations, video and media.
11 posts • Page 1 of 1
Comic Book Character Atempt
Alrighty, so here's something very different, at least for me (it's not something you'll be seeing in my portfolio). It was my brother's birthday this past week and as part of his b-day gift, I wanted to do a drawing for him. He's a big fan of comic books and so I decided to put my own personal preferences in style aside and do something that I thought he'd just think was cool, so I did a drawing of him as a comic book character. A little bg on my brother: he's a comedian down in Miami. That logo on his shirt is his logo,which I designed for him a few years ago. Other personal touches I added include the iPhone on his waist and the sneakers. This style was a challenge for sure...especially the inking. I definitely have a deeper respect (more than I already did) for comic book artists after having done this piece. I had plenty more ideas on how to push the drawing and the concept further, but I was running out of time and I really wanted to have it done for his birthday.
BTW, you can see a clip of my brother's comedy here:
I hope you guys digg it ...but comments and critiques are always welcomed.
Re: Comic Book Character Atempt
BTW, that would be ATTEMPT not Atempt! I just caught that typo Hopefully the drawing is better than my spelling.
Re: Comic Book Character Atempt
Checked out your brother doing his routine. He's funny and is a natural stand up comedian. I like how he focused on Miami and family for his material. Your design is consistent with the excellent artist that you are. My main suggestion would be to watch the forearm muscles. They're a little too bulbous and overstated, especially the side that's holding the microphone. Your rendering is very well done. You got a great start at doing something that is different for you. Nice work Jose.
Daily Z
Re: Comic Book Character Atempt
Thanks Charles. Good tip on the arm. I guess that's the animation designer in me wanting to make things cartoony. It's a tough style for me to mimic. That's for sure. I was glad to be done with it, although it was still fun to explore a different look.
Glad you liked my brother's routine too. He's come a long way. Now THAT is a tough industry. Those guys are at it night after night, really grinding...and the crowds can be brutal. They don't beat around the bush to show they don't like your material. You have to have a thick skin. I think he'll go far. He's a natural entertainer and very comfortable under the spotlight.
Re: Comic Book Character Atempt
one word...dope!
Re: Comic Book Character Atempt
Thanks Snake!
By the way, I just got some great news. My brother just became the "official" comedian for the Miami Dolphins! He'll be performing at every home game this season. I'm very excited for him. He's definitely earned the success. Like I said, these guys really hustle night after night...and to see my brother go from someone who didn't even know how to hold the mic to opening in front of thousands is really amazing. I'm very proud of him. Big props.
Re: Comic Book Character Atempt
Your brother the official comedian for the Miami Dolphins! That's huge! It's obvious how talented he is from the video of his performance, but this is big news. Congrats and best wishes for his continued success and rise to fame and fortune. You have a very talented family.
Daily Z
Re: Comic Book Character Atempt
SUPER CONGRATS!!!! thats got to be a lot of fun! and nerve rackin!
Re: Comic Book Character Atempt
Thanks guys. Yeah, I'm very proud of him. And I agree Snake. I don't know that I could ever do that. The funny thing about his career choice is that I was considered the funny one in the family. That don't mean jack on stage though. You have to be a good writer and a good performer. Delivery. That's what it's all about...and being able to repeat a performance night after night and make it all seem spontaneous. It's completely different than just being funny in conversation.
Re: Comic Book Character Atempt
Very happy to learn of your brother's recent success, Jose. What is the familiar, oft-repeated refrain in comedy?
"Death is easy, comedy is hard!" This is why I, too, have a deep admiration for guys who are able to get up on stage night after night.
Your design was badass, as well. Lucky brother. What a suitable birthday gift!
Re: Comic Book Character Atempt
Thanks, man.
...a bit off topic (or not), but I just have to say what a shame about Greg Giraldo. He was such a funny guy on the Roasts...dead at 44...that's crazy. I'm still in shock. He was one of my favorite comedians of today.
11 posts • Page 1 of 1


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They were expecting a great game from a rooky qb that only started 19 games in college...we (fans) need to be more patience this season imho.
They were expecting a great game from a rooky qb that only started 19 games in college...we (fans) need to be more patience this season imho.
i agree. people freak out and bash everything too damn much. am i pissed hell yes, but im not gonna let this make me think any different than i do about this team. how do we know that we wont learn from that horrible 6mins they played? its week one lets wait and let the season unfold. and if you dont like it find a new team. you dont have to make dumb threads over and over. we all want change, but i see alot of positives coming from this game
Yep, the biggest issue this week was the fans. Nailed it.
These kinds of things seem to only happen to Miami. Browns started a rookie (like Miami) who had 4 ints and they played better than Miami.
When people see other similar poor quality teams to Miami like the Browns and Rams almost pull off upsets against playoff teams, they're going to wonder what's so different between them and Miami and why Miami couldn't be that competitive?
Your on crack if you think those picks were flukes. After we were up 3-0, driving and had a third and long was tannehills awful pass to armstrong a fluke as well? Cause we lost points because of that. Next thing you know this guy is throwin passes like he's 5 feet tall. I'm not gonna rip tannehill because i know he needs time, but he's not ready. why is he being thrown into the fire?
Moore should have started this game just given that its the Texans in their back-yard. Raiders would have been a good game to see what Tannehill has got...too much...too soon
Unfortunately it seems fluke plays or something like those, never seem to disappear consistently
(On Miami sports teams being popular)
-Thats not competition, LeBron said. Thats like you rooting for your family members. Thats not competition at all. It would be great to have him, but well see.


text:
"50 Goals in 39 Games" - December 30, 1981, Philadelphia Flyers at Oilers, Northlands Coliseum:Wayne Gretzky sets one of the most untouchable records in sports - 50 goals in the first 39 games of the season! He does it in style, scoring five goals for the home fans to reach the milestone before the New Year. Enjoy colour commentary from none other than The Coach, Don Cherry, in the early days of his broadcasting career!
1984 Stanley Cup Finals, Game 1, May 10, 1984, Oilers at New York Islanders, Nassau Coliseum: The maturing Oilers return to the scene of their crushing defeat in the 1983 Finals, and hold on for a gritty, tough, 1-0 win, thanks to the brilliant backstopping of Grant Fuhr.
1984 Stanley Cup Finals, Game 5, May 19, 1984, Islanders at Oilers: Witness history as the Oilers wrap up their first-ever Stanley Cup championship, thrilling the home fans with a 5-2 victory that ended the Isles' dynasty, and began a new one.
1985 Stanley Cup Finals, Game 5, May 30, 1985, Philadelphia Flyers at Oilers: The young defending champions take the even younger Flyers to school, crushing the Flyers 8-3 in front of a party atmosphere at the Northlands and skating with the cup for the home fans for the second year in a row.
1987 Stanley Cup Finals, Game 7, May 31, 1987, Flyers at Oilers:In a series that was supposed to be a cakewalk, the air was thick with tension for Game 7 against the Flyers and their remarkable young goaltender, Ron Hextall. Thanks to the heroics of Mark Messier, Jari Kurri, and Glenn Anderson, the Stanley Cup returned to the Oilers after a year's absence in Montreal.
1988 Smythe Division Finals, Game 2, April 21, 1988, Oilers at Calgary Flames, Calgary Saddledome:Re-live one of the greatest games in the history of the Battle of Alberta! Entering the series as the underdog to the President's Trophy-winning Flames, the Oilers battle Calgary into overtime in Game 2, and win on a memorable Gretzky moment punctuated by Glen Sather's salute to the Saddledome fans.
1990 Stanley Cup Finals, Game 1, May 15, 1990, Oilers at Boston Bruins, Boston Garden: In triple-overtime, coach John Muckler finally puts Petr Klima on the ice. The rest is history! The most memorable game in Edmonton's remarkable run to a fifth Stanley Cup Championship in seven years to cap off a decade of greatness.
1991 Smythe Division Semifinals Game 7 - April 16, 1991, Oilers at Flames: Capping off the most entertaining, breathtaking entry in the Battle of Alberta, super-pest Esa Tikkanen once again sends the Calgary fans home unhappy with his legendary OT winner.
1997 Western Conference Semifinals Game 7, April 29, 1997, Oilers vs. Dallas Stars, Reunion Arena:Curtis Joseph stands on his head, leading the Oilers to a surprising and remarkable playoff round victory after several seasons in the wilderness.
2006 Stanley Cup Finals, Game 5, June 14, 2006, Oilers at Carolina Hurricanes, RBC Center:Facing elimination in Carolina, the Oilers showed grit and determination, taking a thrilling game into overtime, and forcing the series back to Edmonton on a one-of-a-kind NHL moment - a short-handed OT playoff winning goal (by Fernando Pisani).
With over 21 hours of historic, original broadcast coverage that you've likely never seen since its original airing back in the day, this is a must for any Oilers or NHL hockey fan - and at this low price, it is a steal of a value you simply can't get anywhere else. Enjoy!
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Topic: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean (Read 19079 times)
David S
Full Member
Posts: 151
Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
January 30, 2013, 11:33:02 AM »
In a review of the camera by Thom Hogan (
), he states that Olympus says that manual cleaning of the sensor is not allowed and yet I can find no reference to this in the manual.
Has anyone seen this or has anyone cleaned their OMD sensor without issue?
Dave S
Sr. Member
Posts: 1387
Hiker Photographer
Re: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #1 on:
January 30, 2013, 03:20:55 PM »
I have cleaned it both dry and wet. It is a bit disconcerting because the sensor moves around when you do it. I haven't seen any negative consequence of it though.
I have had this repeating oddity with the appearance of a big ugly black smudge in my images (most apparent in skies but obvious on many plain backgrounds). Initially I tried to clean this out, but later I just started blowing out the sensor with a rocket blower and then cycling power. It goes away. Very strange.
Fike, Trailpixie, or Marc Shaffer
I carry an M43 ILC, a couple of good lenses, and a tripod.
David S
Full Member
Posts: 151
Re: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #2 on:
January 31, 2013, 12:02:57 PM »
Just received this reply from Olympus.
The sensor should not be cleaned by a user for two very important reasons:
1: When the camera is turned off the sensor is loose. When powered on, the
sensor is suspended in a magnetic field to enable the five-axis image
2: If the sensor is cleaned by a user using a swab, the anti-static coating
on the sensor is wiped off. Our repair technicians replace the coating when
they perform service.
Cleaning is not mentioned in the manual because from the beginning of our
DSLR/PEN/OMD program, we have employed a Supersonic Wave Filter to shake
dust off of our sensors, a feature other digital camera manufacturers have
neglected to employ.
Dave S
Sr. Member
Posts: 1387
Hiker Photographer
Re: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #3 on:
January 31, 2013, 02:04:49 PM »
Well, I blew that already. With the use of primes and the lack of a protective mirror, I think this sensor is likely to get a bit dirtier than a traditional DSLR. I wonder how much of that stuff is seriously true and how much is a desire to get people to send a camera for service.
Fike, Trailpixie, or Marc Shaffer
I carry an M43 ILC, a couple of good lenses, and a tripod.
Full Member
Posts: 220
Re: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #4 on:
February 02, 2013, 03:15:10 AM »
"Cleaning is not mentioned in the manual because from the beginning of our
DSLR/PEN/OMD program, we have employed a Supersonic Wave Filter to shake
dust off of our sensors, a feature other digital camera manufacturers have
neglected to employ"
I wet cleaned my E3 sensor because of oil thrown off by the shutter, something Olympus neglected to account for.
I am increasingly suspicious of camera manufacturers and their 'don't do' directives. I doubt they want the extra work of cleaning sensors, so it must be more to do with not trusting the average customer to do something properly. I never read in the manual a specific directive saying 'don't do it' (and I can't be bothered to read it again). But it can't be deadly to the camera. If you buy the concept of wiping off the anti static coating and it does have a negative impact the answer is easy, drop something horrible on your sensor and send it off to Olympus to be done by a technician and all will be put right. But I don't buy that. If/when I need to clean sticky crude off my OMD sensor the only thing I will question is 'should I have the camera switched on, or switched off?'
Sr. Member
Posts: 670
Re: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #5 on:
February 02, 2013, 03:28:35 AM »
Quote from: 250swb on February 02, 2013, 03:15:10 AM
If/when I need to clean sticky crude off my OMD sensor the only thing I will question is 'should I have the camera switched on, or switched off?'
Me too. If I get dust (none so far) I will probably have a go at cleaning it myself, using an electrostatically charged brush rather than a swab, and switched on/off will be the starting question. When they say the sensor will be loose when the camera is off, it is presumably still held in some way or it would fall out. I don't see that a gentle touch with a charged brush could possibly do any harm, but camera techs could probably quote multiple cases in which that kind of thinking preceded disaster.
Ken Cameron
Sr. Member
Posts: 451
Re: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #6 on:
February 02, 2013, 05:21:23 AM »
A timely thread.
My OMD has a fingerprint on the sensor. There is no doubt in my mind that this print belongs to an Olympus employee as the camera came in an unopened box and - it goes without saying - I would remember poking my finger into the damned thing. I spotted blemishes not long after buying the camera, just after launch and managed to convince myself that I could delay getting it cleaned. Now the print seems to have attracted dust that won't shake or blow off. It's a mess that you can't effectively clone out any longer. But here's the dilemma.
I'm currently in dispute with the suppliers of the camera - Park Cameras, a large retailer that southern UK photographers will probably be aware of - who a few months ago offered to clean the sensor for me free of charge, whilst I wait. Now they want £40 and three days, which entails two round trips of about 50 miles. This company is terrific when there's a credit card hovering over a big-ticket item but generally hopeless when there isn't.
Given the information in this thread, I wonder if they are aware of Olympus' warnings about the procedure? Somehow I doubt it.
Looks like an email to Olympus is in order to clarify the situation. Are dealers equipped to meet Olympus' protocols for this procedure? Getting this retailer to clarify the issue is likely to be a very long job if my past experience of their sluggish responses is any indication.
David S
Full Member
Posts: 151
Re: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #7 on:
February 02, 2013, 12:52:48 PM »
What bothers me in all this is that while Olympus claims they don't talk of sensor cleaning (see my copied email)
why does the manual not say so too.
Cleaning and checking the image pickup device
This camera incorporates a dust reduction function to keep dust from getting on the image pickup device and to remove any dust or dirt from the image pickup device surface with ultrasonic vibrations. The dust reduction function operates when the camera is turned on.
The dust reduction function operates at the same time as the pixel mapping, which checks the image pickup device and image processing circuitry. Since dust reduction is activated every time the camera's power is turned on, the camera should be held upright for the dust reduction function to be effective.
# Cautions
Do not use strong solvents such as benzene or alcohol, or a chemically treated cloth.
Avoid storing the camera in places where chemicals are treated, in order to protect the
camera from corrosion.
Mold may form on the lens surface if the lens is left dirty.
Check each part of the camera before use if it has not been used for a long time. Before
taking important pictures, be sure to take a test shot and check that the camera works properly.
Nothing in the above would suggest we should not clean the sensor. So are we being taken to the cleaners as it were?
Dave S
Sr. Member
Posts: 1387
Hiker Photographer
Re: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #8 on:
February 02, 2013, 08:13:23 PM »
A few more thoughts on this subject...
I have cleaned mine with ASP-C sensor swabs and SensorClean liquid. The sensor moves around like it is mounted on a coil-spring connected platform. I was really weirded out by the movement when I was cleaning the sensor, but the more I think about it, the less I am worrying. Gently sliding a swab over the surface (assuming you need a wet cleaning) is no more destructive than hiking with a camera around your next or riding on a bumpy road. It is inconceivable that the camera can't handle that sort of handling.
A few notes from my experience:
APS-C sensors don't fit quite right. You need to do two passes to cover the whole sensor. Cleaning in the other direction is impossible because the sensor swab doesn't fit. As a result, each pass requires two swabs. It took me twelve swabs to get mine fully clean. I still thing there is a piece of dust floating around in my camera somewhere because it occasionally turns up, but it always goes away when turning the camera off and back on. I would reserve the aggressive wet cleaning for really bad smudges.
Fike, Trailpixie, or Marc Shaffer
I carry an M43 ILC, a couple of good lenses, and a tripod.
Sr. Member
Posts: 451
Re: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #9 on:
February 05, 2013, 10:58:00 AM »
I just received an email from Olympus UK in which they offer to clean the sensor FOC - however it's a 2 week turnaround.
"Thank you for your e-mail .... I can confirm that we will clean the sensor free of charge under the terms of your warranty, as long as a copy of your proof of purchase is provided.
Regarding having the sensor cleaned via a third party, this is not recommended as any work carried out by a non-Olympus technician will invalidate your warranty. "
Which is interesting given that my supplier, Park Cameras, who I assume are an Olympus agent have offered to clean the sensor for a range of prices, depending on turnaround and the individual quoting, from £30-£50, thereby invalidating the camera's warranty. A strange state of affairs.
Sr. Member
Posts: 1387
Hiker Photographer
Re: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #10 on:
February 05, 2013, 11:19:54 AM »
I did some additional research. They swab manufacturers recommend using the 20mm swab for APS-H (1.3x crop factor). This should fit the MFT sensor in the wide dimension.
Fike, Trailpixie, or Marc Shaffer
I carry an M43 ILC, a couple of good lenses, and a tripod.
Sr. Member
Posts: 451
Re: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #11 on:
February 05, 2013, 11:37:34 AM »
Do you think that the warranty invalidation is insignificant?
Sr. Member
Posts: 1387
Hiker Photographer
Re: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #12 on:
February 05, 2013, 12:08:58 PM »
I have trouble imagining how they would be certain that you cleaned the sensor. It would have to be the cause of a failure, and as long as you are careful, I don't see that happening. I think stuff like that is generally invoked to avoid paying when you send the camera in for the third time for the same user incompetence.
Fike, Trailpixie, or Marc Shaffer
I carry an M43 ILC, a couple of good lenses, and a tripod.
Sr. Member
Posts: 451
Re: Olympus OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #13 on:
February 05, 2013, 02:51:23 PM »
If Olympus' statement that the sensor incorporates an anti-static treatment is correct I'd assume that they can tell if it's still present. I take the point that these disclaimers are used to protect themselves against egregious mis-handing of the product however it seems there's something more here which it would be interesting to have clarified.
I think it's alarming that a major authorised dealer would be unaware that the procedure was liable to violate the warranty, as their email in response to my query (relaying Olympus reply to my question) indicates.
"With regards to the second email and correspondence from Olympus, this is a situation that we were unaware of. If we had known that this would void the warranty we would, of course, have informed you immediately and suggested a return to Olympus themselves to get the sensor cleaned. I apologise that this was not the case. "
It took numerous quite emphatic communications to clarify the situation with Park Cameras, plus the email to Olympus before I got this sorted out. I wish this was surprising. So I've saved them from potentially embarrassing and expensive disputes: no doubt they will show their gratitude...
Now I have to entrust my camera to the mail system and wait a couple of weeks. Given that the UK Post office were responsible for losing one of two signed for parcels I sent overseas recently (the other returned to me after about 6 weeks) and the fact that their obfuscatory insurance claims procedure takes about 3 months to process there's a chance that I'll be able to replace the E-M5 with the mooted "pro" version. Looks like the D700 is going to get some exercise.
Sr. Member
Posts: 451
Update. OMD E5 sensor clean
Reply #14 on:
February 19, 2013, 05:37:24 AM »
I offer this for comments by the august population here at LL.
I had this sensor cleaned by Olympus, FOC. Yesterday, precisely two weeks after despatch, as promised, the camera returned but packed a lot less thoroughly than my own paranoid effort. When I opened the box and wrapping I noticed that it was stone-cold, and later discovered from the courier's website that it had come by air from Portugal. I did a quick check that it powered up, fitted a lens, set a couple of the operating parameters (it had been updated to firmware v 1.5) and put it in my bag for later use on a walk. In fact I didn't take it out again for nearly 5 hours when I had returned home.
I then took a few shots of the yard of a property I'm working on at which point the camera began misbehaving severely. Intermittent faults like freezing in various modes, sometimes recoverable by powering off and sometimes requiring battery removal. Failure to power-up or -down without a long lag; semi-powered states which displayed only a grey screen and no functioning controls. Audibly noisy start-up and power-down (when it would) etc. I tried 3 different lenses (Oly and Panasonic) with varying degrees of unpredictably repeatable fault conditions - or none.
I immediately completed Olympus' service inquest web form. Having sent them a faultless camera with a dirty sensor I'd received back one with a clean sensor but completely unusable, so the scores were on the low side. I also emailed Olympus' customer support (who I have found to be quite responsive in the past) with a description of the symptoms at that time.
This morning I started trying to find a repeatable set of conditions where these faults could be reproduced. And of course the camera refuses to misbehave. However shooting a capped lens I notice what appears to be a multitude of hot pixels, particularly apparent on a small JPEG (levels tortured a lot to show them of course.) This is much less apparent on a full size tiff generated in LR from the raw files.
My conclusion from all this is that it has been caused by moisture condensing on the very cold camera, despite the fact that it spent several hours in the dry and moderately cool conditions in my backpack. I'll attach the SOOC small jpeg in a subsequent post if anyone would like to examine it. My quandary is what to do now? If anyone can suggest a good diagnostic as to the general condition of the sensor I'd appreciate it.
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