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Mister Lonely
Drama, Comedy
A lyrical examination of our celebrity obsessed culture, "Mister Lonely" follows the story of a Michael Jackson impersonator who meets a Marilyn Monroe impersonator in Paris. She invites him to return to Scotland with her to live in a commune of celebrity impersonators including her husband, Charlie Chaplin, the Pope, the Queen and Abraham Lincoln. Poignant and visually enthralling, "Mister Lonely"is a poetic study of identity, impersonation, love and loss.
Cast: Samantha Morton, Denis Lavant, James Fox, Diego Luna, Anita Pallenberg
Produced by: Harmony Korine, Nadja Romain
Directed by: Harmony Korine
Written by: Avi Korine, Harmony Korine
Running time: 1hr 48min
Opens: May 02, 2008 NY
|Theaters for Today
Pick a day
on this day.

subset: commoncrawl


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Wash. D.C. --- President Obama will take executive action regarding equal pay for female Federal workers; the President will sign two executive orders at a White House event.
The first bars Federal contractors from punishing employees who compare their pay with each other. He'll also order new rules requiring Federal contractors to provide data about compensation based on sex and race.


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This conversation is closed.
We of the industrialised countries have a tremendous amount to gain from the tribal peoples of the world, concerning problems of our era.
I spent some time visiting the Turkanas and Digos of Kenya recently -
my experiences have been primarily in Africa
I realised 2 things -
firstly, that our knowledge of ancient societies, and our level of contact with them, are extremely small -
and when they occasionally happen, it is with great cultural bias and a presumption of superiority by the visitor (NGOs, government representatives, corporate staff, churches ..)
secondly, that many of the core topics of today in the industrialised world (environment, conflict and human social connection) are
- in some cases - managed far more successfully by these
ancient societies -
but there are of course many nuances and downsides in this story -
it is not black and white
I propose that we should have friendly, equal interaction with these peoples in a careful way that does not disrupt their lives -
as a way of pursuing our own search for what is right and what we want
in the West
and we should absolutely not allow these societies to disappear
a little a time - we should rather protect them from threats to their way of life, and get to know them better
Pinkers rapid dismissal of the 'myth' of social harmony in tribal societies
is merely a symptom of the fact that 'we' barely know 'them' at all,
and have extremely little reliable information -
for myself, and for 2 of your TED speakers, it is easy to distinguish
between those who have had close contact with tribal peoples,
and those who have not, like Pinker
it is true that for any normal person, a real personal contact with them
is not easy to arrange - there is travel, there is finding a personal introduction, and survival in areas without shops or hotels
I maintain that nothing has ever been more worth the effort -
and that there is no substitute for the real thing -
films, books and talks cannot convey the experience
The nearest I can come is that it changes you permanently,
and as Pinker says "everything you thought before was wrong"
Jan 1 2013: I know it sounds ridiculous but I think that one of the greatest lessons that we can learn from these tribes is contentment. We need to get to a point where we are content, where we no longer need to expand or else we will eventually run out of space to expand to and that is when we will run out of resources (as we are now) and destroy ourselves in our restlessness
I know it sounds ridiculous but more is not always better
Jan 1 2013: Does not sound ridiculous to me Joshua....sounds very reasonable, responsible, insightful, and true:>)
Jan 1 2013: Thank you :)Jan 3 2013: That scenario will likely lead us to space colonization and development. If we were content, we wouldn't have developed computers or technology as we know it. Think about it, what drives you? Contentment is probably a bad thing for a species.
Jan 3 2013: Matt,
I agree that one may get SO content that s/he may not feel motivated. However, I do not find contentment to be a "bad" thing. When I feel content, I usually feel more calm, creative, ready willing and able to explore more. I think as we evolve as thinking, feeling, human beings, we will always be creating:>)
It appears that Joshua is talking about expansion in relationship to using resources?
Jan 4 2013: Well two things, contentment is a state of being, because no one is ever content all of the time. This hypothetical talk is giving a nod to ignore that very idea, that we need to work towards our human potential or transcendence. We are not discussing whether or not we will be content from one moment to the next, but that we will be content.
There is no measure of content because you either are or you aren't. I'd be willing to bet that you're talking about something else, closely relate able but who can ever agree on these damn definitions anyway, there's always some subjective quality to anything in the english language.
Or we're talking about something metaphorical and idealistic, in which case this whole thing is silly, whether or not its fun to talk about, but we're back to being 12 again.
In any case, those history majors might agree with me, our desire to discover the unknown, which is arguably the basis for all that we are, is the very thing about our nature that has driven us create, to improve and to destroy. Just looking at the natural order for things as evidence for a precursor to some peoples romantic utopian future, content creatures get eaten or fail to adapt. I've always said I'm all for it, but, it's not realistic. Someday, Isaac, someday...Jan 4 2013: I am content all the time Matt:>)
There are many levels of contentment:>)
Contentment, according to definition and my experience means: "satisfied".
And this is the quality I observe in tribal/ancient cultures of our world, which I LOVE connecting with:>)
Jan 4 2013: Different definitions :D
I am happy for you if you're content all of the time andddddddddddd a little envious you super woman you!Jan 4 2013: LOL! Nothing "super" about it in my humble perception. I believe contentment is a choice, and much more enjoyable than the alternative:>)
As I said, it is what I connect with and admire about people living in remote places with very little materialistically.
L.A. Hall
Jan 5 2013: Is "technological" progress really a good thing if it only solves problems created by other technologies? Consider the state of the earth and humanity pre-agricultural revolution. Today, some people tax themselves tremendously with the rat race of life, hoping to work and work and work (hard) so that someday they can live a calm, balanced, tranquil life. You know, retire to some secluded, rural nook of the world. Today, people struggle to stay healthy and pay top-dollar for "organic" food. They go camping and hunting and fishing to "escape." To escape what? Why is our society built in a way that encourages "escape"? Again, consider pre-agricultural revolution humanity. People built and ate what they could. Men and women lived in communities with nature, built off their own labor. They woke up, hunted, ate, and at night, were merry. What is 'worse' about this life? It is an endless fishing trip, an endless hunting trip, an endless vacation.
- +1
And this way of life is not irrelevant. People still live this way around the world. They did before we were here and if we continue on our course and destroy ourselves, they'll be here when we're gone.
Matt Smith
Jan 5 2013: Very romantic but ultimately untrue. That society you speak of evolved from or ultimately became this one. Human nature isn't changed when the population is tiny. People wanted more, we always have. Field studies of primates show much of the same behavior and they haven't quite grasped technology like early man did. What is better about this life? A false sense of happiness because you don't know anything?
- +1
Don't romanticize ancient history would be my advice, you've led a privileged life and knowing that is enough but problems are quantitatively comparable. We don't know how much their life sucked, or how great it was, there simply is no written record of those times.Jan 6 2013: LA Hall and Matt,
You both make some valid points.
You say that people "tax themselves...hoping to work...so that someday they can live a calm, balanced tranquil life". You also insightfully mention the idea of "escape". It sounds like you are suggesting that often times, in western cultures, people do not live in the present moment? But rather, they are seeking something outside (escape), or peace and calm in the future?
You say the "society you speak of evolved from" that other "romantic" (peaceful, calm) society? And the reason we evolved as we did was because we wanted more?
I agree with everything you guys write. Do you suppose it is helpful to seek and experience balance? Can we learn from each other? Western culture is probably NOT going to stop developing technologically. Could it be that there is a possibility that we can use advanced technology to help support poorer people and poorer countries, and at the same time learn more about how THEY often experience more peace and contentment? Could this be the balance we work toward in our global society?Jan 6 2013: To be as vague as possible, yes unfortunately! I don't feel qualified to be entirely specific about it up front. But...Suppose there was one boy in said society that was more curious than anyone else, he wanted to know what was beyond the borders. What was beyond the great sea. Perhaps he runs into another clan, one not so peaceful because they've had neighbors competing for their food sources. Perhaps said peaceful tribe grew to a size where it was in direct competition with another tribe for limited food sources. There's a drought, there's disease, famine, etc. I don't want to get all waxy with more of the same stuff but I hope these scenarios don't seem so far-fetched. As far as I know, we have no idea what really creates the outliers and the unique minds of any population.
As a veteran and world traveler myself I completely believe in people experiencing other cultures and other activities well out of their usual. For me, I've been all over the world in cities big and small and I see much of the same thing, people live in bubbles, the bigger the city the bigger the bubble apparently. I see this problem with romanticizing ancient history or tribal life and I just can't sympathize with it. I do however, after reading the OP's comment near the top about finding home, completely understand how that feels. In my first trip to Bavaria I was overcome with the same strange feeling and have never had anything near to it in over a decade of exploring.
As a mental health professional I have come to believe that we can absolutely fix humanity with technology, namely medicine and psychology. If our society could get through industrialization and what became of that horrid mess is this, we're not all together lost and confused. We should be fine if we remain thoughtful and critical.
Comment deleted
Jan 14 2013: Hi Carolyn,
Good question. I agree with you that the words we use send a message, as well as reinforce an idea in our own minds. Perhaps how we use the words is as important as the words we use, and in what context?
There ARE people living in "primitive" circumstances..."original; primary; of or relating to the earliest age or period; early ancestral; self taught; simple culture, natural...."
The question may be...do we look down on these people, or recognize the gifts they have for us?
There ARE "uneducated" people in our world...those who have not had much formal education. I am one of those:>) Do we look down on them/us, or respect them/us for what we may have learned without formal education?
I could go through your list of words, and I think the important thing is to remember to be open to people, be aware of the words we use and HOW we use them?
For me, it does NOT reduce ANYTHING because I try to genuinely see, and hear people for who and what they are, and what they have to teach me. I believe that we are all teachers and students in the life experience, so I am open to that possibility with all people, regardless of their background.
I am not fond of some of the words you present...uncivilized, anarchist, jungle inhabitants, and I do not use those words to describe anyone.
I do not mind the words primitive, uneducated, aboriginal or tribal, because in my perception, those words may accurately describe some people (including myself), and I do not feel it is disrespectful to use them.
Comments?Jan 26 2013: For the lack of a better word , let's call it 'preliterate'. And all our literacy, science and all the rest of it is nothing more than epistemological cartoons and value nothing if we can't raise our mind to this preliterate state of consciousness. In some sense our civilisation is a biblical 'fall', but there is no meaning of the fall without a rise.
"... they prove is thousands of years of sustainability."
Some one said that they had nothing and ' nothing ' is the only thing worth having, it lasts.
But we can't go back , it's never the option. Don't you think that something 'new old' is emerging ? Archaic revival ? I wouldn't call it a culture and it has no chance to become a structure ( it's a structure antidote ), it's a kind of a 'postliterate ' thinking/ feeling/attitude ... awakening , maybe ?
Here are links to illustrate my point :
Hope you'll enjoy these talks !Jan 3 2013: Pual, I think the problem is deeper then just what we have been told, in the heart of your narrative there is a lack of humanity; in the words of mother Teresa: "Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody, I think that is a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty than the person who has nothing to eat. I Do not think that love in order to be genuine has to be extraordinary. I have found the paradox, that if you love until it hurts, there can be no more hurt, only more love." The human society as a whole is a single oraganism capable of florishing to the highest potential of life in every demsion. There is no WE US, versers THEY OR THEM. The otherness we created in each other has to go. WE are the ones we have been waiting for, Ob.
In Oct 6 1963 a few years before I was born H.I.M. Haile Selassie address to the Unted Nations and this is what he said That until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned: That until there are no longer first-class and second class citizens of any nation; That until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes; That until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race; That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained; And until the ignoble and unhappy regimes that hold our brothers in Angola, in Mozambique and in South Africa in subhuman bondage have been toppled and destroyed; Until bigotry and prejudice and malicious and inhuman self-interest have been replaced by understanding and tolerance and good-will; Until all Africans stand and speak as free beings, equal in the eyes of all men, as they are in the eyes of Heaven; Until that day, the African continent will not know peace. Alhought alot has happen yet still the same?
Jan 3 2013: "There is no WE US, versers THEY OR THEM. The otherness we created in each other has to go. WE are the ones we have been waiting for."
Beautifully said.
Tim Petersen
Jan 28 2013: I am sure of one thing; nothing short of a sustainable, balanced lifestyle will ever endure on this small home of ours. Something else that I am not so sure of; that any of these "civilized" nations are capable of living harmoniously within the confines of our atmosphere, they suffer a disease, known predominately to caucasions of european descent, of possession, which seems to be incurable through their own efforts of accumulation. It will necessarily require a return to traditional social structures of indigenous peoples from the world over. Technology is a predator. Turning back to the earth, and first living unobtrusively within our natural means is our best chance, of not only surviving, but thriving.
- +1
I understand how foreign and fanatical this sounds to most, I found it unthinkable many years ago myself. Today, it has become my primary desire for this planet we call home. I look at many things differently today, you see, I am a survivor, I have overcome the disease of possession and I wish for everyone to be free from the fear of tomorrow. I healed by learning, living, and eventually loving the mindset of our ancestors. A mindset that existed prior to the establishment of organized religion, institutionalized education, and a government that owned the authority above the sovereign individual.
Hopi, Lakota, Nakota, and Dakota, Mayan, Tibetan, and many other prophecies ranging from five hundred to many thousands of years old and passed down through the generations foretold of the day when the earth's populations would seek the knowledge kept safe in the hearts of their elders. The knowledge of our proper place on this planet and proper relationships to one another, to the other living creations we share our home with, as well.
I am grateful to be alive these days as I think we are witnessing this transformation of hearts and minds that will return us to the environment fashioned by the hand that fashioned us.Jan 26 2013: Thank you for sharing your veiwpoints on this very interesting topic. It seems that Africa is much different than south-east Asia. The tribal people here are more self-oriented and in many ways self-destructive.
As an American it was very difficult for me not to interfere in the local "ways of life." When I visit the local hospitals, I see that the main emergency is breathing problems. I can clearly see that this is due to the overabundance of smoking cigarettes and also because the people cook in their houses over an open fire with windows and doors closed to keep out the dogs.
Another situation is the use of polluted water. It is the national custom to throw trash and everything on the ground where the waterways become contaminated and drainage becomes blocked leading to flooding. Being a person who "knows better," I am confused by the term "Local Wisdom." The World Health Organization has studied these things and has offered simple solutions to increase health and the mortality rate of children. Hundreds of millions of dollars every year are given to help reduce poverty.
Yes, the world does need to understand that poverty is relative. $200 per year in one country might be the same as $200,000 in another. So to say that we must take people out of poverty, we need to be aware of their situation first. They may have no money, but they may be healthy and have a place to live.
I agree that we should not push our customs on other peoples, but what should we do about unheathly situations? What about areas of oppression? Should we educate people about corruption and the benefits of law and order?
In Papua, Indonesia, the gold mine is run by an industrialized nation while the natives still wear traditional grass skirts and coconut shells over their "privates." There are hostilities continuously between the local tribes. The fights are usually over land or pigs or women. Many times they just schedule wars that last for a couple days and then they stop and go home.
Paul Inskip
Jan 9 2013: I see that people have raised the question of whether we can be in contact with such peoples
- +1
at all without harming them -
from my experience this is the truest observation and concern - our record on this speaks for itself
It is calamitous
I believe, under certain conditions, we can however - and I'd like to exchange more on that
For us more fundamentally in this thread, what is it, as Carolyn and others ask, that we have to gain ?
As per the initial idea here ?
I suggest that anyone who spent time with tribal or ancient societies would learn things
that they could bring back to the West or industrialised world
we speak a lot of core human values and shared values, and universal qualities of human life -
that is those of us with an engaged spirit in our world -
but we know our societies are overcomplicated and overwhelmed with complication,
and distant from the basic elements of life, and the natural forces that underly our lives
we are in a never-ending race, where we are particles moving, or being moved,
in a direction we do not even know, and may largely disagree with -
submerged in complication, detail and stress and pressure, we have perhaps
forgotten what we are aiming for
I believe tribal communities, and all old closely connected communities that are
not inhumanly complicated and hurried, and are in a physical relationship with their
environment remind us of where we all come from, and of the basics, the universals
It takes us out of and beyond the technical, the intellectual and the competitive rush,
and back into a sane, peaceful, connected version of ourselves -
I think only the old civilisations can do this -
and make us of the high-tech societies remember what really matters,
and who we really are
Jan 14 2013: Paul,
One thing I have learned, is that we are all more the same than different. Some of the things Carolyn mentions are cognitive ability, depth in child parent connections, enjoyment of surroundings, suffering, death, illness...
The people I have interacted with in remote areas of our world, in my perception, have equal cognitive ability (in fact, sometimes more than in suposedly "civilized" cultures), they are similar in parenting skills and I think/feel many times, better with child/parent connections. I think the closeness and simplicity of their life styles contributes to some of these connections. Most of the people I have encountered in remote areas seem to be MORE aware of their surroundings and appreciate what they have (although very little materialistically) MORE than people in more advanced cultures.
As you say Paul, we share many core human values, and universal qualities of the human life experience. We share all the same emotions. Those in western cultures are often stressed by the "never-ending race", and yet people continue to "submerge" themselves into complication. Yes, I believe some folks have forgotten what they are aiming for.
Calvin Davis
Jan 8 2013: I think more exposure to those that choose to remain isolated would be more harmful to them; however interaction with their ways of life may be refreshing for those buried in the industial/social netowrking aspects of the current society. Sometimes people need to get back to the basics and find a genuine appreciation for many of the things we take for granted.
- +1
Jan 14 2013: Calvin,
I totally agree that it is helpful to "get back to the basics and find a genuine appreciation for many of the things we take for granted".
I also agree that some folks are "buried" in the industrial/social networking aspects of some societies.
So, if/when people are "buried" in a certain belief system, they may bring that belief system with them into the isotated cultures? This is what I observe sometimes in our world. Rather than going into remote areas and genuinely trying to interact with the people in THEIR lifestyle, people visit with the intent of spreading their own life style? So, they may actually be creating a barrier to learning from others?
I totally agree that interaction in a simpler lifestyle may be "refreshing" for some folks, and in doing that, it may be necessary to let go of our own comfort zone?Dec 30 2012: Yes, in my view, Pinker's thesis about tribal peoples is based on selective (and often questionable) data. And, yes, we should be extremely wary of using terms like 'ancient'. I go into all this in a book, 'Tribal peoples for tomorrow's world', which is intended as a sort of 'beginner's guide'. If anyone wants an ebook copy, let me know.
Kunal Shah
Dec 30 2012: The natives have always known how to live in harmony with nature and the world. The tribal people in Africa, and other lands such as N America, Australia... all still have the knowledge we need. I was watching a documentary on the Native Americans and found that in their own prophecies they talked of a time when all shall come and learn from them as to how to live and co-exist with nature. Though they say this is going to happen after World War 3.
- +1
My say is that since we are on Ted, we might as well create the groups we need and start working on fixing the environment, why wait for a disaster to first occur?
We can also learn a lot from the African tribes as they do possess the knowledge of curing diseases, there was a particular kind of cancer (can't remember which one) that was cured by a Kenyan tribal chief. The same goes for the nodding disease that was present in Uganda whereby one of their own locals was able to heal them.
I personally had many mental problems and was healed with the ancient knowledge of spirituality and faith healing whereby my own OCD, depression, anger, agitation... were all healed by a healer who was in a trance and the angels had possessed him. All this was for free, other wise it would have cost me over a $1000 by now. This itself was part of ancient healing.
In my spirituality there was a person healed of aids too, so all cures do exist its just that we don't know of them as we have corrupted everything and want people to consume tablets on a daily basis so that we make more money. We can combine all forms of healing from all different cultures and also the modern kinds, especially to do with surgery... and physical healing too and we would be very advanced.Dec 29 2012: Tribal societies have a lot to learn from industrialised ones; industrialised societies have a lot to learn from tribal ones.
It is easy for the societies with the fancy gadgets and the glamourous pop culture to 'pity' tribal societies; in most cases it takes a journey to the tribal societies to realise what Jesus has already made clear in Luke 12:15 "Take heed, and beware of covetousness:for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth."
So, happiness is a choice; and there is much more to life than the fiction presented by Ads, Tv show and magazines.
But tribal societies should learn about the industrial societies, and accept change when neccessary; because wisdom is wisdom, the application of knowledge is for certain needs.
Not knowledge just for the sake of it.
Dec 31 2012: Hello Feyisayo,
I have developed a mental exercise, often when sorting out a family problem, I take away the props of our western, industrialized construct, and I divide my family members into my vision of a desert camp construct, what I imagine Abraham lived like. This model has served me well over the years. There is nothing new under the sun.
I envy societies that are not fully industrialized, and can, theoretically pick and chose what they want to take from the Western civilization.
I also am dismayed at how older cultures still maintain their traditions, while we in the west, seemed to have consumed, even our scanty 200 years of history, except as museum displays.
Your venue is intriguing. Thank you for bringing it to fruition.
Jan 22 2013: Hi Marianne, can you elaborate on your technique? So you 'divide my family members into my vision of a desert camp construct". I am intrigued. How does this help?Dec 28 2012: A very interesting study that is related to this is that of the city of Pre Conquest Mexico city (I can't spell it off hand). They had a deep sense of internal harmony, in which every man woman and child knew their place in society and there was very little crime, low corruption (it was brutally and publicly punished), and the city could feed itself, they 'made' land by planting mats made of reeds and corn stalks and anchored them to the lake bed with willows and used them to feed the city, this may not seem like much but a city of 200k+ being self reliant isn't common today. What they traded was mostly goods cacoa beans, feathers, gold, silver, shells, etc. and not much food. I think it is interesting that so many forget the tragically lost cities like this, that could have been an inspiration for the world.Jan 28 2013: I believe your premise is false, they have a lot to learn from us. Tribal societies are evolutionary backwaters, they are over specialized and unable to adapt.
Their knowledge in specific areas may be greater but no tribal society could grow to the extent of modern societies, their structure cannot work beyond a certain limit.
That doesn't make them any less valuable, indeed there could be a good argument made for a different civlization model based on tribal sizes but with greater communication and autonomy (think a fractal society).
The difficulty is this, tribal societies and the modern world typically have different desires and objectives. Fear holds both parties back from truly open engagement. If anything bothsides need to learn one lesson. Be selfless.
Jan 28 2013: Evolutionarily backwards? Unable to adapt? You say that no tribal society could grow to the extent of modern societies. That's fine. Why is growth the cure for what ails society? Why is growth to be desired? Cancers grow, but nobody suggests we should have more cancer.
Why again do tribes have a lot to learn from modern societies? Not seeing it.Jan 28 2013: Context is content. There may be a lingering romanticism of the "noble savage" or whatever the current politically correct term may be. Our responsibility is to give each individual the opportunity to live their lives in the way they best see fit. I suspect that would mean that given the opportunity these isolated communities would largely evaporate in a fairly short time. While this may be regrettable, the only other alternative is to willfully impose ignorance and isolation on people without their informed consent in order to serve our romantic ideals. Their lives work for them because, in comparison to the modern world, they have very few choices to make on a day-to-day basis. However, if they wish to be left alone, and I'm not sure who makes that determination or on what basis, then they should be left alone. The fact that you are changed for the better by their isolation does not mean that they are.
Jan 28 2013: I don't mean to contradict, but what the author, Paul, is pointing to is the wisdom that exists within these societies. He's pointing to the fact that these societies have saner ideas on what it means to live a meaningful life. To dismiss his content as 'lingering romanticism' is to not understand what he's getting at.
Jan 28 2013: I welcome contradiction and am open to being completely persuaded to another point of view. However, i failed to see any explanation of what those "saner ideas" are or what a "meaningful life" is or how they might be adapted to a modern society. I believe I understand what he's implying, but I don't see any evidence to support it and I'm not willing to sacrifice these peoples identities for what I will continue to see as romanticism until some practical benefits are identified. The only concrete benefit he identified was that it made him feel better. i don't think that's enough. We admired the "sanity" and "meaningfulness" of the Native Americans to the point of extinction..
Jan 28 2013: A couple of examples. Author Jared Diamond in his book The World Until Yesterday discusses the tribes of New Guinea, which have much saner ideas about how to take care of the elderly -- a big problem in modern culture. Or, the Native Americans who believed in a spiritual connection between themselves an the buffalo, which gave them an incredible respect for the environment -- another big problem of today. Or Malcolm Gladwell's citizens of Roseto who lived in a community with little heart disease and little crime, as a result of their culture -- another problem of today.
I think what Paul is saying is that there is something we can learn from these cultures if only we take the time to understand them. I also think there's a bias we have toward our modern society that paints all others in an inferior light when, perhaps, we're the ones with inferior social structures. Just a thought.Jan 27 2013: If tribal communities have so much to offer, why don't they have indoor plumbing?
Sure, human life is valuable, and stagnant cultures can certainly be interesting, but if we want to solve the problems concerning our era, we are best served by looking within our own civilization. Our society produces real healthcare, advanced agriculture techniques, efficient communication mediums, education, durable housing, roads, bridges, mass transit, and the list goes on and on.
Jan 27 2013: and let me add that those communities can't wait to lay a hand of these technologies. the other day i was lending on kiva to a farmer in kenya to buy a "zero grazing unit". i had to look up on google what the hack is zero grazing. kenyan farmers don't give a damn to traditions when it comes to food production. they just want more output, and they use what they can.
this, until a white man comes along and says "we should absolutely not allow these societies to disappear".Jan 27 2013: have you ever heard of the cubic personality? this is an idea developed by mr enrique moreno garcia, author of a book called "the two americas" where he easiily explains the difference between anglosaxons and latinos, why the mex american border divis two worlds which do not understand each other, he is a language expert , knows koine greek, latin, and ten more languages, among them a few nahuatl, which is the language mexica indians speak. he has been professor for the university of florida, guadalajara and washington, but he writes mostly in spanish... he is a very bright intelectual.Jan 26 2013: What a rich and fascinating set of responses -
I admit I rarely talk with those around me in Chichester England about the tribal peoples,
it seems as if people can't easily see the connection with their lives and knowledge,
as if the 'gear shift' were too large to 'enter the world' of the peoples I am talking about
And yet here, a wealth of imaginative and informed reaction
After all of this exchange, I think want I want to point to most as the reason for this thread is ;
a sanity, a healthfulness, a human connection and life at a healthy human scale -
some quality of their lives that makes sense, is real, is warm, strong, appealing and calm
of course I acknowledge the points made here -
that we should not romanticise, project utopian fantasies, create ethnic theme parks and so on
nor should we think we can 'be like them' or abolish high technology
to me they are more like a pointer to what we are missing, what we are looking for,
what we have forgotten about ourselves - a core part of our lives that we are losing
and my feeling is that we can not 'study' them and abstract concepts from them like scientists,
which is how we tend to approach all questions and problems
but we can be permeated by their influence ...
and so far the only way I know to do that is to go and be with them,
in their life as they lead it
this whole thread is my attempt to find another way to move that humanising, healthful influence -
to my great surprise, it has brought forth a great many personal and meaningful responses
(in such cultures, everything is personal and meaningful !)
If you have more to add, please bring it on !
Like further responses, or ideas about where we can take it from here
Jan 28 2013: "to go and be with them" is to fundamentally change who they are and what their expectations are of the next outsider who arrives. You are polluting their experience while I am unclear of the advantages you take away other than a vague nostalgia for a simpler time which ignores the harsh realities of that simplicity. What is it specifically that "permeates" you? What specifically is it about a stone age culture that is transferable to a 21st C. culture? If we are going to exploit these cultures, which is what you're suggesting, however you phrase it, then what is the greater value that we take away from it? Everything is personal and meaningful in our culture, too. These primitive cultures are irrelevant to us which does not mean that they have no value to those in them. I think it might be more useful to seek out examples of what's "missing" or "what we're looking for" or "what we're losing" within the society that you actually live in.Jan 26 2013: I agree with you.
However, I do think it important to note that humans are not yet civilized and there is a great error in speaking as though some are, or are more civilized than peoples of the past.
It seems to me these "civilized countries", which have people in them, and who "seem the most civilized" are the ones who have done the most plundering of other countries, lands, peoples and their resources.
I don't see real "civilized people" as ones living and behaving that way, especially when they espouse that they do and that they are.
What we mistakenly label or call "civilized" is not actual civilization. It is people "acting that way" when they really aren't.
I really think this is a much more accurate description of who we are.
And lo and behold, we still refuse to address the causes and get rid of them.
That is dangerous, evil stubbornness and it certainly isn't civilized.
Calling oneself civilized is like the insane Moral Majority in the Un-united States, calling themselves moral when they ain't even close. Nor are they anywhere near sanity.
Look around you at the world. It ain't civilized...................................yet.
If a mass murderer were caught tomorrow, after serial killing thousands of people, over a long period of time, and it were found out that she had done a lot of good things for others too, would you be inclined to forgive, forget or just wipe the slate clean because of the good she had done in the past? And let her go?
Well, that's what patriotic American'ts do with America. "We've done a lot of good in the world, blah, blah, blah," and using that to ignore and try and forget all the atrocities America has perpetrated and continues to perpetrate.
And that civilization, and other rich, Western cultures are considered, "civilized"?
And it ain't, "compared to what?" Is there really such a thing as a civilized monster?
No. There is only a monster that "acts that way", be it persons, countries or cultures.Jan 22 2013: The world population is now over 6 billion and is
increasing by 90 million a year. Human numbers
are expected to grow to between 8 and 11 billion
before levelling off later in the 21st century. Population growth has levelled off in the highly
developed countries over the past few decades;
but these industrialised states are now supporting
the maximum numbers that can be sustained in
the short term, and the citizens consume around
30 times as much energy and resources as those of the Third World. For example, the 120 million
Japanese have a greater damaging impact on
world resources than the whole of the population
of India and China put together.Jan 22 2013: World Conservation ProblemsJan 8 2013: I don't think "communication... with these peoples... without [disrupting] their lives" is possible. They are geographically and culturally secluded (as they have been for thousands of years), and interaction with them would intrinsically involve a disruption in their ways of life. That being said, I'd love to learn more about these cultures, and I'd love for them to learn more about our culture(s) as well.Jan 6 2013: There have been many and differing kinds of efforts to get the cultural insights of one group communicated to another. I especially appreciate the sense, the sense of wisdom that isolated traditional cultures have to offer humanity at large.
Jan 6 2013: So Mark,
Do you think it is better to try to communicate and connect different groups of people? Or do you think/feel it is the isolation that preserves the wisdom of these cultures?
I LOVE connecting with isolated groups, being among them, and I always felt that we were sharing something with each other.....
Mark Hurych
Jan 9 2013: I like the sensitivity in your question and the consideration for shared human values. I agree that there is a need to be wary of the possibility of corrupting anything vulnerable and valuable. As with all resources, the cultural resources of isolated peoples should be respected and protected.
- +1
I think we especially in the industrialized west have isolated cranial self from our other selves: heart, gut, sensory body, kinesthetic body, empathic being, communal being, right hemisphere persona.
Isolation might very well be a fragile state.
Jan 14 2013: Mark,
I always enjoy the sensitivity in your insightful comments....thank you for that gift:>)
I agree that isolation can be a very fragile state, which people have sometimes taken advantage of. I also agree that some in the industrial west isolate themselves, even in the midst of (or maybe because of?) a very complicated lifestyle.
If we interact with people in isolated places, with the intent to learn from them, it may be more likely that we will help protect and preserve their culture and wisdom? I believe this to be true.
Part of an experience, while staying in the rain forest in Costa Rica years ago, was history lessons. Costa Rica has no military, low crime rate, high educational standards, more affluent than other central Am. countries, etc. I asked why? How did this country develop this way, while the countries around them have always been in chaos?
We were told by our Costa Rican teacher, that way back when missionaries were moving into central america, the person who was most active in Costa Rica, encouraged the people to retain their own culture. Yes, he was trying to convert them, AND also encouraging them to embrace their natural culture. While missionaries in other parts of central america were trying to convert the people by advising them to discard their own culture.
Our Costa Rican teacher said she believes that the Costa Rican people know themselves and their culture, still embrace parts of their original culture, have more self confidence and self esteem. Makes sense doesn't it???Jan 4 2013: I agree Scott ,and I believe that we are in dire need of inspiration.I look at so called"primitive "cultures with great envy and sadness.Mankind has lost direction,and today desiring perky breasts and the latest gadgets has replaced the collective responsibility for the well being of both the young and old of the community.
Perhaps they have it right and should look at us with pity,a generation plagued by Intellectual superority complexes and lack of direction or faith.
claire w
Jan 4 2013: sorry if someone mentioned it, but Jared Diamont (?sp) (Guns Germs and Steel author) has a book out on this very topic. he was on the podcast On Point with Tom Ashbrook this week. may add another layer to this discussion
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Paul Inskip
Jan 5 2013: let me try Carolyn, by telling a little of the story
- +1
I arrived there near sunset -
the village was 3 huts, 2 or 3 women and some small children, relatives of the Chief's daughter Rose,
who I had met in a town - she had taken me there, and was the only English speaker
as is customary, woven straw mats were brought out for us all to sit, and the sun was setting
there was no other sound than Rose and the women talking, catching up on news
and no light except the strong glow of starlight - so calm, so simple
I lay on my back, watching the stars and hearing the soothing trickle of conversation -
small shapes appeared in the half-light on the corners of my mat,
as the children lay down, half-snoozing and half listening to the women talk
I will never be able to explain this, but in that moment, way out in a remote desert tribal region
where I knew no-one yet, and understood not one word, I felt as if I was Home
In the many following days and further visits, life felt so spacious and without hurry -
it felt reasonable, sane, human. alive and healthy
Life there is materially simple to an extreme degree
you sleep outside on a straw mat, people appear to visit you and talk,
and visiting each other every day is just the normal way for them -
'alone' does not really exist
there is a sanitising effect of living such a simple and physical life
in a natural environment - and the quality of time itself changes
I usually find that time as we know it stops
I don't want to fall into the trap of romanticising the place or people -
they are a human and flawed as anyone else
but the effect on a Westerner like myself is profound -
and when you come back to our culture, for a while you are perceiving
your own culture from the outside - which you may never have done before
you get a glimpse of what all the people of the old cultures are seeing when they look at us
Jan 8 2013: what you experienced was harmony within a tribe. harmony between tribes, which is what pinker was talking about, is a myth.Jan 3 2013: Colleen, we live in a beautiful spot. I go to school in Burlington. It's so vast and untamed up there. Great stuff. Anyway, to listen and understand body language FULLY, yes I agree you've got to be attentive with all five senses (spare taste, perhaps), but what I was saying is that perhaps the trend in industrialized nations -- nations where there's increasingly more and more people around us who we talk with less and less -- is that we pick up on each other's subtleties much better now. What some of us call awkwardness, the elephant in the room, may be a misunderstood, highly attuned sense of human body language and its meanings.
Jan 4 2013: LA Hall,
I was born in Burlington, and lived there for many years....now live further north:>)
I don't understand what you mean by..."awkwardness, the elephant in the room, may be a misunderstood, highly attuned sense of human body language and its meanings."Jan 3 2013: Along this topic may I recommend this talk;
http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen.htmlJan 3 2013: I think you have made a number of important points, if anyone would like to take this further into the realm of action, please feel free to start here: http://www.wesolver.org/wiki/Cultural_Wisdom
In addition to preserving cultural wisdom, I believe that native peoples should take (and be supported by the rest of us) the responsibilities and rights related to protecting the lands the live and depend on.
This would help us all.Dec 31 2012: Hello Feyisayo,
I have developed a mental exercise, often when sorting out a family problem, I take away the props of our western, industrialized construct, and I divide my family members into my vision of a desert camp construct, what I imagine Abraham lived like. This model has served me well over the years. There is nothing new under the sun.
I envy societies that are not fully industrialized, and can, theoretically pick and chose what they want to take from the Western civilization.
I also am dismayed at how older cultures still maintain their traditions, while we in the west, seemed to have consumed, even our scanty 200 years of history, except as museum displays.
Your venue is intriguing. Thank you for bringing it to fruition.Dec 31 2012: Paul, how exactly did you visit the Turkanas and Digos? Wouldn't there have been a language barrier? Not speaking the language, it would be extremely hard to understand the culture?
Paul Inskip
Jan 1 2013: Quite right Greg - with the Turkanas I broke the habit of a lifetime and took a guide -
- +3
he is an urban Turkana and a personal friend
Furthermore, it turns out the language is only a small barrier - and that the cultural difference
is the real challenge, or the real 'language difference'
Since my fourth visit to the Interior, I start to get accustomed to their ways and rhythms -
it is infinitely rich, highly developed - a true civilisation
I have never enjoyed, or gained so much, as I do with this growing friendship with these people
the truth is, it could take more than a lifetime to really understand their culture
Jan 3 2013: I would leave you with this clip the greatest speech ever!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibmcsEGLK. this is where we are heading to as a society we have reach a turning point and its time to love, for the greatest is love… with all my heart to humanity.
Jan 3 2013: Cliff,
I tried to connect with the link you provided and it says this video does not exist.Jan 1 2013: Greg and Paul,
I have had "conversations" with people around the world when we do not speak each others language. Language is about 67% body language I think. We can understand each other with a lot of gestures, facial expressions, a few words, etc.....don't you think?
Jan 3 2013: We're hearing voices from everywhere saying humans are getting worse and worse at communicating, but one sort of 'eerie' thing I can't help noticing is that it seems I understand subtle body language better than my mother, and better still than my grandmother. I believe, while humans are getting worse at worse at linguistic communication (and believe me, as a writer, I'm saddened by that), the hidden, untold story is that we're getting better at non-verbal communication; by we I mean those of us living the the hyper-civilized world: cities and big towns, although small towns -- because of the internet -- are being increasingly exposed and a bit indoctrinated to mainstream culture.
Jan 3 2013: Hello neighbor LA Hall! I am in northern Vt:>)
I think to understand body language, one needs to be open minded, open hearted, really listening and hearing with all the senses and be totally present and engaged in the interaction....don't you think?
It seems that there may be so much distraction in big cities, we may not be able to focus as well with communications?Jan 4 2013: Collen I think the greatest connector out there is love; that which is capable of uniting stranger and make a family out of them if we extrapolate that ONE LOVE into our human family, there wont be strangers any strangers in amongs us anymore…. more so in our humanity we are more connected in more ways then we can ever imagine when we just love one another.
try this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibmcsEGLKo and let me know what you think
Jan 5 2013: Hi Cliff,
I was able to access the video with this link....thanks. The video offers many good ideas, and honestly, I'm not very fond of the way it is presented, because I do not believe that "fighting" for a new world is the answer. More "fighting" is not going to end "fighting" in my humble perception.
I wholeheartedly agree Cliff, that the greatest connector is love...that which connects strangers as you insightfully say....unconditional love of each other. I agree that we are more the same than different...we all share the same feelings and emotions, most people want to love and be loved, and we all share this earth.Dec 29 2012: Tribal societies have a lot to learn from industrialised ones; industrialised societies have a lot to learn from tribal ones.
It is easy for the societies with the fancy gadgets and the glamourous pop culture to 'pity' tribal societies; in most cases it takes a journey to the tribal societies to realise what Jesus has already made clear in Luke 12:15 "Take heed, and beware of covetousness:for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth."
So, happiness is a choice; and there is much more to life than the fiction presented by Ads, Tv show and magazines.
But tribal societies should learn about the industrial societies, and accept change when neccessary; because wisdom is wisdom, the application of knowledge is for certain needs.
Not knowledge just for the sake of it.
Jan 3 2013: Feyi, what are your thoughts on the role of Christianityin Afrika in respect to what Paul is saying?
Jan 3 2013: Jesus Christ says in John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"
The church is not meant to 'modernise' or 'civilize' people. Jesus came to lead us to God. His word is for all men at all times; and he loves the diversity of the world. The Indian church, the Chinese church, the US church, the Arab church, the Gabonese church; each church is a unique expression of God's love as recieved in a particular place. It is the same word and the same Spirit that works in all.
Sometimes missionaries have a kind of colonial agenda; but the kingdom of God is by His Spirit; not by theology, formulas, laws or Western education/lifestyle.Dec 29 2012: Thank you for your input and responses so far
I wish to add something, and also ask for your help
I want to add this -
for fully one year after my first visit to the Turkana, I felt many of my core assumptions
being turned on their head - at the age of 44, as someone with a university degree, life experience etc
it was tranformational - in a way that some say of meditation and yoga practices
when I watch some of the inspired people of the West speak, on Ted or elsewhere,
I realise we are in search not just of quantitative adjustments to our way of life -
but for new paradigms that contain human wholeness, justice - a beneficial, sustainable way to live
and some say, or imply, that we are so far from that reality that a kind of broad-reaching, shared creative
project of development is our pathway towards something better -
and also that, for the first time in history, this may actually be possible due to communications technologies
some say in fact, it has already begun - a democratisation of knowledge
where I ask for a little help is on this point -
I can feel that my own view has been changed by my tribal friends -
and I saw the same of 2 Ted speakers - one working in East Africa, one in the USA with the Sioux
here are some pointers, perhaps you can help me develop them -
firstly, I saw a place where nobody is hurried or agitated - I invite you to look around yourselves
and see what degree of agitated hurry you perceive - this I believe is more important than we realise
secondly - I discovered there that I was in the middle of a drought and a famine -
when I left, the family insisted - and would not take no for an answer -
that I take one of the 4 or 5 healthy goats (the remaining 20 were almost dead of hunger)
in a situation where their own children sometimes die of hunger/thirst related causes
thirdly - most astonishingly - after years of travelling Africa, I found the poorest people
to be the most peaceful and happy I had ever met on earth
Thoughts ?
Dec 29 2012: I share your thoughts and observations Paul, and have also noticed that some of the poorest people, are the most peaceful and content. Your story about the goat reminds me of an experience....
While sitting on the banks of the Nile in Egypt one morning, I noticed a lovely young woman watching us. We made eye contact, smiled and nodded and she continued to watch me and my companions. We made eye contact again, smiled, nodded a few times. Finally, she motioned for me to follow her, and she led me into her village, into her mud and thatch roofed house with dirt floor.
There was a tiny fire going in the middle of the room and two older people (I learned were the parents) sitting on stools by the fire. Two small children were cuddled up with a cow on the floor. They had brought the cow inside because it was chilly that night, and the cow provided warmth. There was one empty stool by the fire, which they offered to me, and they gave me a cup of tea. They invited me into their home and generously, happily, lovingly shared with me everything they had.
Dec 30 2012: Colleen, I have also had such experiences in Egypt, and all over Africa -
perhaps these stories are the only way to communicate to people what
Africa is really about
but here is a specific remark I propose to all looking at this subject -
What do we mean exactly by poverty ?
first-hand experiences like mine and Colleen's above are widespread in Africa -
and it feels to us like great wealth and a thing of beauty -
something we will spend most of our money to go and be a part of as outside visitors
Africa is overflowing with human wealth
if a family is housed, eating and in a harmonious environment -
then we must think very carefully about the word 'poor'
and wonder if it does not apply more to some Western societies
we certainly must dispense forthwith with GDP and per capita income measures -
which some Ted speakers refer to as if they were reliable
many tribal cultures do not use or own money at all
and higher income countries in Africa often suffer far higher levels of
real poverty suffering
Dec 30 2012: I also have had many similar experiences in various parts of our world Paul, and I agree that it is a thing of beauty and richness. While the people we speak of may not have many material possessions, I ALWAYS feel richer for the interactions with them. I believe western societies are indeed "poor" when we consider what is really important.
I'd like to share another story told to me by a Canadian couple I met while traveling in Mexico. They were traveling in a rural area and got hungry, so they decided to stop at the next village to get something to eat. When they came to the village, they saw a BBQ, with tables and chairs set up and people eating, so they asked for something to eat...thinking it was a resturant. The locals welcomed them and gave them food. When they tried to pay for the food, the owner/cook refused to take any money because he said it was his daughter's wedding celebration, and he was happy they were celebrating with the family:>) As my new Canadian friend was sharing the story, he asked...why don't we do that in our culture? Why are we so afraid to invite people into our lives?
I believe our world is "overflowing with human wealth", and when we recognize that people are people EVERYWHERE, we might, as a global society, be able to get beyond the barriers that prevent us from connecting?
Western societies are rich in material goods, and maybe poor regarding connecting with people in other parts of our world?
I don't think many people in western cultures know that even if people in other parts of our world use money, they sometimes make an average of $2.00 a day for hard labor....$200.00 a year...very little. So, your question about what is "poor"...what is "poverty" is very relevant. I sometimes think that in the USA, many people don't even know what poverty really is.
Think of the abundance in the US, and realize that many people in our world don't even have basic needs ....water, food, shelterDec 29 2012: Paul,
I agree with you that there is much to learn in less developed places in our world, and I LOVE spending time with people in personal interactions WITHOUT shops or hotels:>)
Whenever I return home from spending time in ancient cultures, I am always reminded of the abundance we experience in our culture, and the complex problems that abundance seems to create.
It is the simplicity of life in ancient, less developed cultures which draws me, and feels more "at home" for me. I live a simple lifestyle in a place where living simply is not fully understood, so to be emersed in such a culture feels really good to me:>)Dec 29 2012: two observations.
1. you did not list a single one of the tremendous.
2. how could we "not allow" those societies to disappear? maybe they have some say in the matter, i believe. if they want to live the way they do, you don't have to "not allow". if they don't, you don't want to force them, do you?
Jan 5 2013: By not polluting their lifestyle into an impossibility and developing over their lands.
Jan 5 2013: polluting is a metaphor. explain.
Jan 5 2013: The ecosystems they rely on are impacted negatively by choices they had no say in making -- namely, development choices. Do you believe that the wants of the industrialized are more valuable than the needs of the tribal? Why should they give up a life more ancient than ours to make room for the greed of others?Jan 5 2013: i still don't understand what you are talking about. i don't care about such things like "wants of industrialized" and "needs of tribal". inevitably, tribes will meet industrial societies. they will face the choice to either follow their own lifestyle, or adopt some of the habits/methods of their industrialized fellow. how can we not "pollute" their lifestyle? what is your proposed action/inaction besides metaphors? be specific.
Jan 5 2013: Consider their lifestyle and its impacts. Consider ours. Like you said, "inevitably, tribes will meet industrial societies." But do you really think that following their own lifestyle is even an available choice at that point? If they say no, we will either pay them or perform legal jujitsu to displace them. The industrialized, "civilized" world has been destroying tribal peoples since the agricultural revolution. Nothing will change this, and it makes me sick. I am one person. I have my voice and I will use it for the things I care about. I am no expert, but I care.Jan 5 2013: how much i need to pay you to argue for my side?
Lejan .
Dec 29 2012: Isn't the 'pursuing our own search for what is right and what we want in the West' just one of the most 'infectious' and 'endangering' attitudes for 'tribal people'?
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I always feel sorry to see former 'natives' struggle in the face of our 'glitter world' and our almost unavoidable presence.
I think 'we' already possess all the knowledge necessary to finally end our 'search' and the fact that we keep searching, is actually part of the 'virus' and the problem which comes with it.
No tribal 'wisdom' would ever work as a cure for 'us', as also 'we' once inherited it in the history of 'our' path...
So in my view 'we' better leave untouched what managed to remain 'genuine' and 'natural', as also the best intentions won't be able to keep their 'bad genes' separate ...Dec 28 2012: You pick a curious adjective, ancient. I assume you have not invented a time machine. Is it possible that the remains of your own bias is showing? Perhaps we should just stay with tribal.
The current path of civilization is leading to its self destruction, so it is entirely possible that these tribal societies are more sustainable and, in the evolutionary sense, more advanced. We had better learn all we can, from these and any other societies willing to share their wisdom. For us, wisdom is no longer optional.
W. Ying
Dec 29 2012: Yes! You are right.
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"We should just stay with tribal."
Or, we go self-extinction quickly by exhausting all the resources/environment of the only planet we can live.
We will be killed by pursuing INVALID (ineffective, bad, harmful) happiness soon.Dec 29 2012: Hi Barry,
I don't perceive the use of the word "ancient" to be bias. I speak of ancient cultures such as Greece, Nepal, Thailand, Mexico, Central and So. America, Egypt, etc. Although these places may be industrialized to a certain extent in the cities, when we get out into the mountain villages for example, many times, the people are living simply, as they did long ago, and I find it very appealing. I sincerely hope that using the word "ancient culture" is not offensive to people that I admire a great deal.Dec 28 2012: "firstly, that our knowledge of ancient societies, and our level of contact with them, are extremely small -
and when they occasionally happen, it is with great cultural bias and a presumption of superiority by the visitor (NGOs, government representatives, corporate staff, churches ..)"
Except for our scientists of course...
"secondly, that many of the core topics of today in the industrialised world (environment, conflict and human social connection) are
- in some cases - managed far more successfully by these
ancient societies -"
Their communities are far smaller: a council of elders could not run New York City, let alone China.
There is no doubt that there is a lot they can teach us (and by us I mean the non-scientists among us) about medicinal plants, survival tactics, nutrition and attitude towards life, but that doesn't mean their system of governance is relevant to us.
Dec 28 2012: thanks John, and Scott
the point I'm trying to make is tremendously difficult to put words to -
so please bear with me
It turns out that, as far as I can tell, tribal peoples of today - people you can actually meet -
operate from basis that is so different to ours that ...
we, who are looking for alternative approaches to life, resources and social connection
need to look at what they are doing and seeing differently
not try to adopt their way of life, but ask these questions among others :
why do the people who own the least appear the happiest in some ways, and the most generous?
what do such people think of the notion of 'competing against each other'?
(in my experience, they find it a very puzzling idea .. compared to co-operating)
and does it make sense to listen to those of a culture and mindset so different to ours,
at a time when we ourselves need to search 'outside the box' for our own answers -
bearing in mind their social way of organisation is thousands of years old,
and ours around 50-100 years old, depending where you count from
Could it be that these are the most benign and healthy societies on earth today?
(by measures of ecology, war deaths, drug addiction, social connectedness ...)
If so, and if they are indeed happy peoples, this surely must have some significance
for us - indeed it has many implications I believe
I acknowledge that large urban societies need their own models of functioning -
but this does not subtract from the value of societies living on earth today,
apparently, without causing great damage to the environment or each other
Anyone who can do that, is worth listening to
W. Ying
Dec 29 2012: Paul, let me try to answer your questions:
- +1
(1) "... Why do the people who own the least appear the happiest in some ways, and the most generous?
What do such people think of the notion of 'competing against each other'?"
ANSWER ---- It is because valid happiness is the short-time feeling of things being a-step-better for keeping our DNA alive, No matter how big the size of the step may be.
(2) "... does it make sense to listen to those ... their social way of organization is thousands of years old, and ours around 50-100 years old ... ?"
ANSWER ---- Yes, because their social way of organization is just our ancestors' successful experiences formed 10,000 years ago and saved in our DNA. However, we have tried to change it for "50-100 years".
(3) "Could it be that these are the most benign and healthy societies on earth today?
(... by measures of ecology, war deaths, drug addiction, social connectedness ...)"
ANSWER ---- Yes, it certainly could because it is well-proven for millions of years
(For details, see the 1st article, points 1-8, at https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D&id=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D%21283&sc=documents)


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INTERVIEW: Gustavo Penna on Building the Lincoln Residence in the Highlands of Minas Gerais, Brazil
Inhabitat: How would you describe your architectural style?
Gustavo: I start with the ground. In order to design, the architect has to have their feet on the ground, eyes on the horizon and head in the stars. Having your feet on the ground means having a good grasp of the terrain you stand on, the trees nearby, the laughters, the neighbors, the whole environment where you find yourself. Having your eyes on the horizon means contemplating that you are in a certain country, surrounded by a particular climate and culture. We have to represent this culture and its esthetic thinking. It is of the essence to actually see the world around us. And having your head in the stars means that nothing can be done without creativity. You can never really get to do something real if you don't aim for the new. This means not going through the same all over again, but to actually build something that deserves to be built. More of the same means repetition – it means denying the basic human possibility of being original.
I try to turn myself into the building, into the very surroundings and grounds upon which I'm going to build. I imagine the gestures my body would perform there. Buildings make gestures just like we do, and those are gestures that will stand for a long time, so they have to be consistent. It has to be a concise gesture, so as to last long.
Inhabitat: What do "green design" and sustainability mean to you? How do you apply them in your work?
Gustavo: I think a good project has to be sustainable. It is a way of considering the things that surround you. Our mothers always teach us that it is impolite not to respect others. So, I go for respect, for a project that catches the best sunlight, that captures the wind to control the temperature, that features wide windows in order to save electricity in the daytime, a project that brings together many spaces so as to accommodate different activities. I want to bear in mind everything and everybody. Those are climate considerations I've kept in mind for the last 40 years. I want to let the water percolate the ground, to match the plants with the house, to bring the sun in. Such are my projects.
Inhabitat: What would you recommend to a beginner architect?
Gustavo: I'd say, "Stop waiting!" architects have this poor habit of waiting for someone to come into their offices. The first attitude of an architect should be to stop waiting and just get to work, even if it's a small time job in their community. Sometimes, it's good to do something that won't pay as much as you think you're worth, but that will show everybody that you can make a difference. It's something to make you feel important and to demonstrate the importance of an architect in that social space. You need to stop waiting and act. Architects have never been of such importance to our world as they are now.
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text:
- Henry Tugbiyele
- Abuja
- Nigeria
CO - Founder, YIESMAN
This conversation is closed.
Are Feminists just pursuing their shadows? Or what they need is just new Light....
I have studied feminism and their actions and seen that they are only pursuing their own shadows. I found out that feminists don't fight for equal rights with men as they say, but they actually want to be "higher" than men. It is seen in their rebellious quest to retaliate and over-power men. I think what they need to understand is that "equality" does not exist! All that happens is that men and women are both given different roles to contribute to life...... The problem is WOMEN SEE THEIRS AS INFERIOR. All they need is a new light to see this. Or what do you think?
Sep 22 2012: Feminists generally agree that there should be gender equality, but they don't necessarily agree on what is female and male human nature, nor on what exactly our policies should be in order to combat gender discrimination.
Feminism which aims at gender equality is laudable and reasonable; but the 'resenter feminists' or 'radical feminists' whose main agenda is male-bashing, are giving feminism a bad name.
Sep 22 2012: Its very true Anjorin! Thanks for that contribution.... I know they seemingly say that but I don't think they mean it!Sep 26 2012: We tend to forget that the 'game' and the 'gamer' are not distinct, iow feminism shaped a new type of a woman. Is it good or bad, i have no idea, most likely both or neither, which is pretty much the same. But i don't think that anybody is in control. Feminism is not standing apart from other processes, which are currently in place, nothing is. Maybe the only thing that can bring balance eventually is to stop fighting, let it go and stop adding oxygen to the fire, exactly what we are doing right now :)
I am a woman, i don't feel superior, inferior or equal to a man; simply the very idea of comparison has never crossed my mind.Sep 22 2012: Reading explanation above seems , women who are fighting for thier rights are considered as "Feminist"....Are not there men as well who are also fighting for the same reason? How they will be then coined as?
John Smith
Sep 22 2012: "I have studied feminism and their actions and seen that they are only pursuing their own shadows. I found out that feminists don't fight for equal rights with men as they say, but they actually want to be "higher" than men."
- +1
That's your opinion. Many feminists are on record saying they support equal rights, and nothing more and even if there were 100 feminists on the record saying otherwise you can't use that to condemn all feminists because it's not a unified movement.
Sep 22 2012: I welcome and embrace your Idea and thoughts Smith! Thanks for the contributions....
Prithvi Alur
Sep 22 2012: its not true that most women see themselves as inferior. Men see them as inferior. if not why would you use the phrase - " higher than men" ?
- +1
I am a woman and man is NOT my parameter.
Fritzie -
Sep 22 2012: I agree with you that few women see themselves as in inferior to men except in narrow categories like how much weight they can press. However, I do not think one can say that men in general see women as inferior. This varies among cultures and within cultures among men.
- +1
Sep 22 2012: Well Noted! Just like what Reisner said, it differs among Cultures...... That's really True! Thanks for that but I think my point is the case in my region.... And Yes with no doubt, men (not all though but a lot) see women as inferior; bring the phrases of religion to play!
A wal
Sep 24 2012: That would annoy the hell out of me!
- 0
You double posted. (;Sep 22 2012: Well Noted! Just like what Reisner said, it differs among Cultures...... That's really True! Thanks for that but I think my point is the case in my region.... And Yes with no doubt, men (not all though but a lot) see women as inferior; bring the phrases of religion to play!
A wal
Sep 24 2012: But some feminists do and seem to see it as a competition. Btw, what would you think if I made a generalisation like that about all women?
- 0
pat gilbert
Sep 21 2012: The whole subject is a specious meme.
- +1
Sep 21 2012: Yes Pat! Its all a specious meme. Life is also a specious meme.... Even the idea of rights or wrong is..... But there is always an adopted meme..... Your idea of the whole subject is well embraced.....
Sep 21 2012: I should clarify the whole subject with regard to the U.S. now.
Sep 22 2012: Sure! That's indeed OK! And welcome....Sep 21 2012: in my view the feminist movement got polarized too far, with the women who only wanted more respect in their homes being bad and the ones who wanted everything men had +1 more thing being good.
This being said in Canada and the USA I honestly believe there is no need for feminism (as a social movement) anymore. In fact I hear about all these education grants and burseries being put in place in order to encourage women to do non traditional roles, or the worst I heard of was one that was for women who where going into the advancement of womankind, in my view this is deeply sexist and these types of deals need to be converted from sex-based to income-based (same with ones that rely on race).
Sep 21 2012: Yes Scott! It has become too polarised! And its becoming a sexist movement.... Their intentions are biased and wrong.... Feminist don't actually want equality... Cos it can never come in the context of their fight and comprehension, we need to redefine equality and may be remove the words "male and female" and maybe it wld solve d problem!
A wal
Sep 20 2012: I think that it's utterly ludicrous and stupid to say that any group of people have a specific "role" assigned to them from birth, especially just because of their gender.
- +1
Sep 21 2012: Yes it is indeed!Sep 21 2012: That's why equality would never exist because we are cannot be doing the same thing..... Equality/inequality is mans creation of his perception towards the fulfillment of desires. Its all self based..." Roles from birth" are creations of society norms and values/vices. So yes! But we just have to create equality as d embracing of each others self roles in life- which ever role they pick or seem to play. And nor neglecting anothers'!
A wal
Sep 21 2012: I may have took what you said out of context. If you're saying the roles that women have traditionally taken shouldn't be considered inferior then I agree. I also agree that a certain group of feminists are doing their cause no favours at all by looking down on women that do choose to take those roles and thinking that feminine behaviour is somehow a weakness. It's ironic that they call themselves feminists. They're masculinists!
- +1
And reverse sexism is still sexism, same as reverse racism. I hate that companies are forced to employ a certain percentage of women and minorities, but racism and sexism do still exist so maybe it's necessary. It's still annoying though. Non-white women must have a really unfair advantage because they tick two boxes. It should be the best person for the job.
Sep 22 2012: I could read your expression when u said they are masculinists *smiles* . Yeah! U got my point! That's exactly it! Have you read this article from Anne MarieSlaughter "why women still can't have it all!" You would love it! It starts with this "It's time to stop fooling ourselves,
says a woman who left a position of
power: the women who have
managed to be both mothers and top
professionals are superhuman, rich,
or self-employed. If we truly believe in
equal opportunity for all women,
here's what has to change.". Thanks again for your contribution!Sep 23 2012: You might want to read a friends thoughts on Feminism "Who are we by Giovanna Olmos". This is my response to Robin
Morgan's "Radical Feminism" and
the first chapter of Betty Friedan's
book "The Feminine Mystique"
called the "The Problem That Has
No Name".
I find that Robin Morgan believes in a
divided world in which men are the
oppressors and women are the
oppressed. Feminism is not a question
about rearranging the system in which
we relate to one another but about
fighting for changes in the way that
men relate with women. While the first
wave of feminism was largely about
gaining the state's support, the second
wave of feminism, while redirecting the
focus to interpersonal relationships,
seems to be about gaining males'
awareness of and attention to the need
for gender equality. While she stresses
that women's engagement is essential,
I find that the responsibility lies quite
extensively in the hands of men. This is
evidence for polar thinking. To Morgan
there appears to be men's issues and
women's issues. The adherence to a
binary is evident in her reflections on
the lack of solidarity amongst women.
Her protest against "[a]ll that fantastic
energy going to fight each other
instead of our oppression!" clearly tells
me that the advocacy for women's
rights is women's advocacy.
Furthermore it does not appear that
the attainment of gender equality is
something that is co-created as much
as it is realized through women, the
unequal or socially defined "Other",
earning men's, the equal and "Self's",
awareness and recognition of the (their,
women's) issue's urgency.
..... follow this
Link to continue reading: voicesinhaled.tumblr.com/post/32098586217/who-are-we


text:
A long long time ago a man, Wilford T. Edgington, looked down at his breakfast plate and said, "This toast and these eggs are rather tasty. If only they could be combined." As this was before women who were not the Queen of England had any rights, he made his wife figure it out.
After that he made millions on the patent and then divorced his wife in favor of a woman he met at a cabaret. He soon contracted Syphilis and died.
Which is to say that the 19th Century sucked. But French Toast, despite this sordid history does not suck - it is delicious.
Special Thanks to TimAnderson, Canida and Ewilhelm for making this instructable possible
Step 1: Ingredients
Ingredients courtesy of TimAnderson
1) Eggs (about 1 per every three slices)
2) Bread.
I had Challah bread from Semifredi's. I'm of the opinion that Challah bread makes the tastiest
french toast.
3) Butter (Vegetable Oil is also a possibility)
4) A small bowl
5) A frying pan
6) A spatula
It's so hard to pronounce
I like to make this a little sweet w/o syrup so I add a bit of sugar / cinnamon or just add cinnamon and top with confectionery sugar when done...
I have never tried my methods but they should work


text:
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You are hereHome › Programs & Events › Readings & Conversations ›
Dark Surrealist: A Reading of Unica Zürn's Poetry & Fiction
with Mary Ann Caws, Pierre Joris, Jill Magi, Anna Moschovakis & Caroline Rupprecht
Date and Time:
April 23, 2009 - 7:00PM
Event Location:
The Drawing Center 35 Wooster Street (bet. Grand and Broome Streets)
Acquainted with Henri Michaux, Hans Bellmer and various members of the Parisian circle of Surrealists, Unica Zürn (1916-1970) broke ground with her own anagrammatic poetry, expressionistic prose and chimerical drawings and paintings. Acclaimed novelists and poets read from her writings in conjunction with the exhibition, "Unica Zürn: Dark Spring," on view at The Drawing Center from April 17 to July 23.
Event Sponsored By:
Poets House
Event Type:
Readings and Conversations
Upcoming Readings and Conversations
Current Exhibition
June 12, 2015 to September 19, 2015


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HEPPENHEIM, GERMANY – NOVEMBER 21: Formula One world champion Sebastian Vettel smiles during a reception in his home town on November 21, 2010 in Heppenheim, Germany. (Photo by Alex Grimm/Bongarts/Getty Images)
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I forgot that in the StrongLifts program you only had to deadlift 1x5 and accidentally did 5x5, will this hurt my recovery? Should I skip my next deadlift during my next workout B?
Take the 2-minute tour ×
Physical Fitness Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for physical fitness professionals, athletes, trainers, and those providing health-related needs. It's 100% free, no registration required.
Stay the course.
Your deadlifts are not heavy enough to worry. Add however much weight is called for by the program and do deadlifts 1x5 as scheduled.


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Anberlin is an American rock band formed in Winter Haven, Florida in 2002. Since the beginning of 2007, the band has consisted of lead vocalist Stephen Christian, guitarists Joseph Milligan and Christian McAlhaney, bassist Deon Rexroat, and drummer Nathan Young. Members of Anberlin originally formed a band under the name SaGoh 24/7 in 1998, releasing two studio albums before disbanding, with the members having a change in musical direction and name. Anberlin was formed in 2002; within a year of forming, they had signed with semi-independent record label Tooth & Nail Records and released their debut album, Blueprints for the Black Market. In 2005, the band released their second album, Never Take Friendship Personal, selling in excess of 150,000 copies. The band continued its rise to prominence while enjoying a loyal MySpace following and averaging well over 200 live shows per year. The band's third album, Cities, was released in 2007, and became their first album to reach the top 20 of the Billboard 200, selling 34,000 copies in its debut week.
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Once a thriving waterfront pulling in clams and Dungeness crab by the boatload, Fisherman's Wharf today is more of a family-friendly amusement park and shopping mall than anything else. But taken for what it is, the wharf has a lot to offer. It's the departure point for ferries to Alcatraz and a number of other sightseeing tours, from leisurely cruises to high-speed boat tours of the bay. Ghirardelli Square features the famous chocolatier's ice cream and chocolate shop, while historic ships at Hyde Street Pier pay tribute to the wharf's industrious past. Since the area is so geared toward families, nightlife is minimal, but there is some action (blues bands, standup comedy) to be found in the bars and seafood restaurants along Jefferson Street.
Pier 39 is tourist central, with two tiers of shopping, dining and attractions. It's crowded and squeaky clean, packed with souvenir and gift shops, seafood shacks, and chains like Hard Rock Café and Bubba Gump Shrimp Co., as well as waterfront restaurants like Neptune's Palace. It's home to Aquarium of the Bay, with shark feeding presentations and a giant octopus, and sea lions that congregate on the pier's west side.
It all adds up to two things: a genuinely great family destination and a place that locals understandably avoid for its Disney-ish depiction of a working class past. On the one hand, there's that beautiful view of the bay and boats at rest at twilight; on the other, there's that street performer pretending to be a robot. And then, there's the notorious "Bushman," who hides behind tree branches and then leaps out to terrify unsuspecting passersby (for years, local newspapers have chronicled the Bushman's shaky relationship with local business owners and law enforcement).
A group of chain hotels vie for tourists' business on or near Fisherman's Wharf. Standouts include the Radisson, with its great outdoor pool and direct access to the wharf (it's also the cheapest); and the Hyatt, which has a quality sports bar and 24-hour fitness center. On the higher end, the Argonaut Hotel and the residential-style Fairmont Heritage Place, Ghirardelli Square offer full-service luxury accommodations.
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