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The "Clarity of Resolution"
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Topic: The "Clarity of Resolution" (Read 10646 times)
Jr. Member
Posts: 87
The "Clarity of Resolution"
April 12, 2004, 11:19:45 AM »
Dear Digitally_Inclined:
(I wish people would at least give their first names when leaving a message. Replying to a handle is so impersonal...)
You could try an add-on telephoto converter for your existing Sony camera to increase the focal length of the lens. I have a friend with a 717 that's done that and has been happy with the results. You can find decent ones in the 1.4X to 2.0X range that will screw onto the front of your camera. The only other option would be to get another digicam that has a greater zoom range built-in and then use a converter with that as well.
Antoher possibility, which I have not tried, would be to get a small spotting telescope and try attaching your Sony to that. The same effect as the teleconverter, but with far greater power.
I hope this helps.
Sr. Member
Posts: 5484
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #1 on:
April 12, 2004, 11:57:42 AM »
I understand if you do not want to wade through the numerous discussion of DOF at this site, even if I enjoy them. I can suggest three ways to increase your magnification while maintaining depth of field; two are fairly obvious
a) as mentioned, a telecoverter
a digicam of greater "35mm equivalent" focal length, like the Nikon 8700
c) a DSLR sufficiently good high ISO performance and equipped with sufficiently long focal length lenses (perhaps with a teleconverter again).
It is often the case that, due to larger pixel size, the ISO speed limit of a DSLR is faster than that of a digicam like the Sony about in proportion to the increase in pixel and sensor area. When true, using those higher speed settings is enough to allow using aperture ratios with the DSLR that are smaller by enough to get about the same DOF for the same composition and shutter speed as with a compact digicam like your Sony.
(For example, with many DSLRs ISO 800 to 1600 is as good as about ISO 100 to 400 in compact digicams.)
Howard Smirh
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #2 on:
April 12, 2004, 12:58:55 PM »
What I like to see is everything in focus.
May not happen.
If you want to take picture of my stamp collection for example, maybe a flat bed scanner is your best bet. Unless you want to include the album. Unless you want to include your den.
Understand what you want first, then the choice of what you want to capture that. Don't depend on what others want or assume you want.
Howard Smith
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #3 on:
April 12, 2004, 05:01:27 PM »
If you want "long depth of field," look at how depth of field is determined and work fro there to make depth of field as long as you want with what you can work with.
Depth of field is a function of the hyperfoacl distance, the and the focus distance. The hyper focal ditance is a function of the focal lenth squared, the f/stop and the desired diamter f the circle of confusion.
Stop down. The farther the better as far as depth of field is concerned. f/16 will give more depth of field than f/2.8, all else being equal.
Don't waste depth of field when focusing at infinity. Use the hyper focal distance instead of infinity. There is nothing gained by making the far limit of depth of field farthert away than infinity. That will make nearer parts of the subject appear to be in focus.
Don't make big enlargements.
Don't stand too close to the print (increase viewing distance).
Sr. Member
Posts: 5484
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #4 on:
April 13, 2004, 10:40:21 AM »
Depth of field is a function of the ... and the desired diameter of the circle of confusion.
And the circle of confusion diameter is not an arbitrary choice: to get the sharpest possible image of an object, as you seem to want, the object should be within the DOF range computed by using a CoC value comparable to the size of the smallest feature that the camera (sensor and lens) can resolve. This means that you probably want it
very roughly
the same as the pixel size; maybe more like twice the pixel size in practice.
To get beyond this hand-waving vagueness, experiment, or find an experiment that someone else has posted on the web! Norm Koren's site
is often great for this sort of technical and experimantal stuff.
An easy, crude initial experiment is to make a sequence of photographs of a scene in highest quality JPEG mode, gradually opening up the aperture, and look at the file sizes. As OOF blurring increases, the file sizes get dramatically smaller, since the JPEG compression is smart enough to realise that there is far less detail in many parts of the image, and so compresses those parts a lot more. Check against how the image looks, and see how file size is related to perceived sharpness.
Indeed, some digital cameras have a "best shot" mode that chooses the sharpest of a sequence of shots on the basis of having the biggest JPEG file size.
A cautionary example of what would be a very poor choice of circle of confusion value for your purposes, even though some sources might seem to suggest it:
If you were to use a traditional DOF scale for 35mm format, which assumes a 35 micron CoC, with a camera like you F717 whose sensor has 3.4 micron pixels and which can resolve details as small as about 5 microns or less, that DOF scale would be counting some objects as being "in focus" even though they are blurred down to about one tenth the sharpness of objects at the focal plane; the image of each point at the supposed limits of DOF would be smeared into a circle of confusion covering about 100 pixels!
If instead you count something as being in focus only when it looks about as sharp as the sharpest part of the image, an appropriate value for the circle of confusion should be very roughly the same as the resolution scale of the camera, which with a good camera (including a good lens) is usually about 1.5 times the pixel spacing, because of the way that Bayer interpolation works. Teleconverters can noticably reduce sharpness though, as you seem to have observed.
P. S. Some things you can read in forums and even in photography books are written in the traditional context of film photography, and sometimes even specifically for 35mm format film and lenses. For example, they might assume the resolution capabilities and enlargment factors typical with such equipment. Even worse, they sometimes assume the more severe resolution and enlargment limitations of the films and lenses that existed half a century ago, when the DOF scales for 35mm lenses were standardized.
Some people make the mistake of taking these statements out of context, believing them to be universal truths, applicable even to cameras and lenses of far greater resolution and far smaller formats that are typically used with far greater enlargement factors.
Howard Smith
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #5 on:
April 13, 2004, 04:57:34 PM »
Justin, there isn't a real simple answer. To make things as simple as I can;
- stop down as far as you can. The trade is long shutter speed with attendent motion problems (camera jiggle, air currents, suject motion, etc.) and diffraction from small aperature.
- don't waste depth of field by focusing at or near infinity. The depth of field behind the subject will be wasted if it falls farther than infinity (calculated distance).
- try to compose to reduce or eliminate foregrounf objects that are "close" to the camera, nearer than the fodward limit of depth of field. Try to compose "two dimensional" subjects.
- make small prints to keep the circle of confusion smaller on the print.
- use a long viewing distance. The farther away you stand, the fewer problems you will see on the print. You can tolerate a larger circle ofconfusion on the print without seeing it.
- use the out of focus elements to seperate the focused subject from its environment. Make the out of focus parts work for you instead of against.
- experiement to find what rally works for you.
Posts: 6
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #6 on:
April 14, 2004, 01:11:09 AM »
Well, Justin, it seems clear what you should be looking for. Any one of the new breed of 8 megapixel fixed lens cameras would be your best option. The Nikon 8700 has a longer reach (280mm) and might be preferred for that reason. However, the Minolta A2 has an image stabiliser which will greatly facilitate the taking of sharp images at 200mm, and of course has a wider angle at the other end.
The Minolta A2 would be my recommended choice, if I've understood your circumstances.
All of the photo's I have seen (on Pbase), with the new 8mp cameras, seem to be rather less than what you get out of a good 5mp. I would think that it's due to the downsizing of the pixels, which can be a bad thing, if I'm understanding some of what I've been reading. The larger the sensor, the better (to a point) and that's part of why the new 8mp cameras do not seem to have the clarity, due to the smaller pixel size. (gathered from Norman's site). The thing that strikes me as odd, is by the "numbers" the Sony F717 should be one of the poorest cameras out of the bunch, when looking at what it would be compared to film, as far as clarity when enlarged, but I have found it to be excellent and it gives me tack sharp pictures, that need hardly any post processing.... The 18x24's I have are from that F717 and from 2-3 feet, they rival any blow up from film that I have... But the numbers on Norman Koren's site, say the opposite should be true... When things go aginst what the numbers and science say, it get's confusing to understand...
I have looked at all four of the 8mp cameras, but since they all use the same sensor, I see only little difference in colour values. Purple fringing and grainyness seem to be in photos from all four. The Canon seems to be the best overall, followed by the Minolta, then Sony and Nikon last. (my personal opinion). Of course taking them down to an 8x10 size helps dramatically, but I'm talking not taking them down, but being able to print them at size instead of downsizing. An easy way for me, is to open a photo up in Paint Shop Pro (can't afford photoshop right now), and resize it 150%. If it's grainy as heck, I don't consider it good, but with the F717, when resized to 150%, the photo's are still very good and markedly smoother than any other camera I ve tried... I do not know why, I just know what I see and that's the kind of thing I want from a camera with a bigger lens...
Howard Smith
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #7 on:
April 14, 2004, 09:23:08 AM »
Justin, the addition of an auxiliary lens may cause a slight focus shift when focused wide open and then stopped down to make the image. Perhaps that could be the cause of "softening."
Expecting DoF like you see it with the human eye may not be realistic for a camera. When you focus on a subject, objects closer and farther away may actually be outof focus, by your brain fills in some detail and tends to overlook the fuzzy details. When you check around, your eye will autofocus. This an give the impression of very great DoF for the human eye. The camera just records what's there.
An 18x24 prnt from an F717 is a huge enlargement. A very small CoC on the sensor will be very large on the print. Two to 3 feet is pretty close actually for viewing an 18x24 print. There are exceptions of course, like large format books. Maybe you are just expecting too much from the equipment you have.
And don't forget that the DoF of a print will be different for different people. If you have the eyes of an eagle, your DoF will be less than for me, even with my bifocals.
Posts: 6
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #8 on:
April 14, 2004, 11:01:52 AM »
An 18x24 print from your F717 is more like a 20X enlargement. That will require a CoC on the sensor 1/4 the size to get the same 1/100 CoC on the print. This doesn't take into account changes in viewing distance ssumed for a 5x7 and an 18x24.
Here's some links to photo's that may show better what I'm talking about. I uploaded a few. The first is a Train that sits as a museum piece. The next two are shots of trees. The next is just a close up, but I couldn't resist including it. I just love the pic. The last is a 100% crop of the photo taken to 18x24.
100% crop
Let me say that what I did to get the 18x24 was to take the photo, add sharpening in PSP and send the file off to the print place I use on the web. They returned an 18x24 glossy on Kodak photo paper, to me...
Even in these photos, "everything" is not in focus, but a large part is and that's what I am looking for in a camera with longer telephoto. These were all taken without doing anything more than turning on the camera and taking the picture. No manual settings of Aperature or shutter speed. Just Auto mode... Every other camera I've tried so far gives a very shallow DOF in Auto mode, about half as much as you see in these photo's. That's why I haven't found anything better than the Sony so far... (at least that I can afford). I can reproduce this in 35mm and I imagine on a 10D as well, with an expensive lens... Don't get me wrong, if the Canon lenses weren't $3,000-$8,000 a piece, I would be shooting Canon, but at 2-3 hours every 2-3 weeks, that's just not worth it...
Sr. Member
Posts: 5484
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #9 on:
April 14, 2004, 11:14:18 AM »
sorry for my bad habit of giving detailed explanations for optical facts, instead of just stating the practical consequences. As Howard Smith has said, getting large prints in which subjects over a range of distances look sharp from a small sensor camera like the F707 requires keeping the circles of confusion far smaller than the value used on a traditional 35mm lens DOF scale, due to the far greater enlargement factors involved. So numerical DOF examples published in many photographic books can be misleading. Online DOF calclators like
can be more useful, if used with care.
It seems that you are for now constrained to a high end digicam (probably 2/3" format like the F707), so the most practical issues seem to be
a) Beware comparing images from different cameras of different pixel counts at 100% on screen: comparing at the same image size (like "fit to screen") is far more relevant to how sharp your prints of a given size will look. Another somewhat fair way to do it is to downsample files from 8MP cameras to 5MP and compare those versions to files from 5MP cameras.
When compared this way, I see some of the new 8MP cameras giving somewhat sharper images. Sony 828 images downsampled to 5MP are still sharper (but slightly noisier) than 5MP images from the 717, if examined very closely. Check out the Sony 828 review at DPReview.
For optimal sharpness, getting the longest possible focal lengths from the camera's built-in lens is usually better than using a telephoto supplementary lens, as supp's usually degrade sharpness. Hence the Nikon 8700 idea.
c) In the realm of tele supp. lenses, the Olympus E-20 with its big 3x supp. (giving a 35mm equivalent FOV of about 420mm) is apparently of very good quality, but is also very big and rather expensive compared to most digicam options. At that stage, you might be better off with an entry level DSLR and a cheap, long lens like some of the Sigma ones.
George Barr
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #10 on:
April 16, 2004, 09:29:33 PM »
oops - that's 380 mm. not 280 and 3800.
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #11 on:
April 12, 2004, 01:42:58 AM »
Hello all,
I'm new to these forums and hope that what I speak of and ask, will not be too redundant, nor too naive.
I have worked with digital cameras since they first came out, just as total amateur. I am not really very knowledgeable about the Technology, but I know a little, just enough to get me into trouble as usual...
My questions pertain to figuring out how to judge which digicam or DSLR will be the best for what I want to do, or if it does not exist within my limited budget...
My love of the outdoors and wildlife, leads me to desire to take photos of those things. My quest is to find a way to take photos which are pleasing to my eyes, no one else's, just to me... I don't intend to ever sell or "share" the images I take, except maybe with a few friends...
The problem I have, is that I absolutely do not like photos with a short DOF. I do not like portrait style. I like a photo to show what I see, which is everything in focus. I also want to be able to do (or have done) prints up to 24" or better, from digital photos that I have taken.
That said, I have used many digital cameras over the years, from cheapies, to DSLR's and so far, the only one that I have enjoyed using due to it's ease of use and natural tendency to give me the type of photo I want, is the Sony F707/717.
I should say that I only get maybe 1-2 hours every couple of weeks, to take photos, so time is precious and I don't need to have to use a camera which requires constant manual adjustment. I also have a need to have a camera which has a longer telephoto reach than the F707/717 does... I have tried DSLR's including a 10D, but the reality of those, is that I cannot and would not ever have the funds to buy the "L" series lenses, to be able to get the clarity I'm looking for... That's why I didn't stick with DLSR. A DSLR with a cheapo lens, is totally worthless I have learned that the hard way.
For whatever reason, the F707/717 seemed to give me the closest to what I wanted in DOF, without having to do a lot of manual adjustment to get it and it has made the "clearest prints" that I've ever gotten with any camera. I have an 18x24 hanging on my wall that is simply beautiful, not grainy or noisy. What I don't get is the telephoto distance that I need.
So the question is, are there any cameras out there that would get me closer to my subjects than the Sony, but give me the same "clarity" that I see with the Sony? Also, what is the key in the F707/717 that makes it do so well, when even by what is written on this site, it shouldn't lend itself to large prints at all... How do you tell which camera will be the best, when some that should be good seem to be bad and some that shouldn't be good, are good? ...
I realize that what I see as clarity is DOF, I just call it clarity of resolution...
Thanks in advance for any thoughts you have.
Lin Evans
Sr. Member
Posts: 269
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #12 on:
April 12, 2004, 11:36:51 AM »
Just a couple of thoughts. You could use the F707/F717 with a 1.7x tele converter like the Olympus TCON-17 which would extend the 190mm focal length to 323mm. You could use the DSC-F828 with the same tele converter to get 340mm.
The only problem I see is that neither of these - in fact none of the fixed lens digicams are too great a tool for shooting wildlife since you really need about 600mm focal length and you need much faster autofocus than most fixed lens digicams have.
The 4 megapixel Panasonic FZ10 with the Leica F2.8 lens, 12x optical zoom and optical stabilizer will get you 420mm, but it's not going to be able to print quite as large as the 5 or 8 megapixel versions. (I have all the above mentioned cameras).
I really don't have a good recommendation. Of the approximately 25 digital cameras I use, the only ones which I would recommend for any serious wildlife use are the Canon EOS-1D and EOS-10D. Both are dSLR's and I only recommend the 10D because of the 1.6x crop factor and its effect on telephoto. Depending on your expectations of depth of field, you would probably be better off with a fixed lens digicam like the Sony's, but again getting the needed telephoto is not an easy task.
Posts: 6
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #13 on:
April 12, 2004, 12:54:54 PM »
My name is Justin... I've become used to the anonymity of the internet and the "handles"...
I have tried several teleconverters on the F717 (B-300, TCON-17, etc). They do work, but I see a loss of "crispness", the photos seem to look more (how do I describe it?), like the pixels have been mushed together, or smoothed out, like an oil painting, loosing definition...
I think that what I desire is unreachable within my limited budget... I too feel DSLR is probably the only way, buy only with expensive lenses. I have tried it with several lower priced lenses and again, you loose definition... Where the expensive well made lenses have it.
I usually look at f8 for aperature or higher. That gives me the "look I want"...
Thanks for your responses. It's much appreciated.
I have given thought to something like the Nikon 8700 or the DMC-FZ10, but again it will not really get me out there, where I need to be. I figure 600-800mm is about what I need, due to lack of time to devote to sitting or sneaking up on wildlife, to get the closer shots...
Jr. Member
Posts: 87
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #14 on:
April 12, 2004, 03:44:39 PM »
When you tried the teleconverters with your F717 did you use a steady tripod and either a remote shutter release or the self timer? It could be that the softness you saw was due to camera shake and not the optics.
Posts: 6
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #15 on:
April 13, 2004, 06:42:48 AM »
When you tried the teleconverters with your F717 did you use a steady tripod and either a remote shutter release or the self timer? It could be that the softness you saw was due to camera shake and not the optics.
I used a tripod and self timer. I did some testing with a given subject, without the teleconverters and with the teleconverters and all the results with teleconverters were unacceptable to me... I'm sure that they might be acceptable to some, but the loss of clarity and crispness, wasn't worth the gain in focal length...
Howard Smith
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #16 on:
April 13, 2004, 08:15:20 AM »
I have an F707. The digital zoom is prety bad. Do you have it turned off?
Posts: 6
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #17 on:
April 13, 2004, 11:49:57 AM »
Howard: I never use the digital zoom feature since it only interoplates the normal image and does not do a good job at all...
BJL: You are way over my head. I caught some of what you said and in visiting sites like Norman's, I catch some of it... The drift I get is that what I would want in digital is not really here yet, at least not really affordable to grunts like me and maybe that is a good thing.....
What I also see is that digital must be treated totally different than 35mm in many ways and there's a large learning curve there. I continue to read and experiment, but I do not suspect that I wil ever become well versed on most of this....
I've thought for a long time of starting a review site, for digital dummies. It would cover about 90% of us out here. A review site where the approach is "I just want a good picture out of the box" and review cameras from the standpoint of what do I get when I just turn it on and shoot? I would think it would be an interesting twist, seeing as all of us who do not know, really spend most of the money buying digital and paying for the technological advances... I think there should be a site for all the dummies to go....
But that's another subject..... Again, thanks for the feedback. You make me think and look for answers, and that's good...
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #18 on:
April 13, 2004, 08:53:18 PM »
I have tried DSLR's including a 10D, but the reality of those, is that I cannot and would not ever have the funds to buy the "L" series lenses, to be able to get the clarity I'm looking for... That's why I didn't stick with DLSR. A DSLR with a cheapo lens, is totally worthless I have learned that the hard way.
Well, Justin, it seems clear what you should be looking for. Any one of the new breed of 8 megapixel fixed lens cameras would be your best option. The Nikon 8700 has a longer reach (280mm) and might be preferred for that reason. However, the Minolta A2 has an image stabiliser which will greatly facilitate the taking of sharp images at 200mm, and of course has a wider angle at the other end.
The Minolta A2 would be my recommended choice, if I've understood your circumstances.
Posts: 6
The "Clarity of Resolution"
Reply #19 on:
April 14, 2004, 01:32:31 AM »
As far as DOF goes, let me give a couple of examples. There's the easy one where you shoot a barbed wire fence line and everything's in focus fron the foreground out to a long distance down the fence. Or looking up into a tree and focusing on the leafy brance a few feet above you, but having most or all of the tree in focus as well, so that it looks more as the human eye sees it. I've done those with film many times and I've done those with the F707/F717, but I have yet to duplicate it with any other digital I've tried, at least not to the extent that the F707/F717 does... Maybe that gives a better understanding of what I mean by DOF. I just don't care for "soft" photos. I do not like portraits or even wildlife shots where only the animal or part of the animal is in focus... It's just my personal preference. It doesn't mean I think the pictures are bad. It just means I don't care for that style... I guess I'm too much of a realist...
Actually the F707 was the best at giving this "look" and the F717 does tend to give "softer" photo's. I asked a Sony rep once about it and the answer I got was that the F717 was done that way on purpose because most people do not like everything in focus and it was an issue with the F707... Now I don't know if he was just pulling my leg or not, but that's what I was told at the time...
Again I thank you all for taking the time to discuss this with me and offering your insight. I see there are many, very well versed pro's around here and I feel a little out of place at times...
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Kelly Joe Phelps (born October 5, 1959, Sumner, Washington, United States) is an American musician and songwriter. His music has been characterized as a mixture of delta blues and jazz.
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Mostly Autumn is a British band, producing music heavily influenced by classic 1970s rock. The group formed in 1996, and have built their reputation through constant touring, never signing to a major label. The group''s early influences were Genesis, Renaissance and Pink Floyd, and folk music. Later albums also included more contemporary influences.
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Thursday, April 04, 2002Johnson City, Tenn. (Apr. 4, 2002) -- The East Tennessee State softball doubleheader against Tennessee, scheduled for Monday, Apr. 8 at Metro-Kiwanis Park In Johnson City, Tenn., has been postponed. No makeup date has been announced. The Bucs return to action this weekend for a three-game series with Southern Conference rival Georgia Southern in Statesboro, Ga. The two teams will play a doubleheader on Saturday, followed by the series finale on Sunday.
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With art and music on the chopping block in even well-to-do school districts like Belmont, MA, the prospects for school-based arts education look dim — that is, unless and until the arts finally take their rightful place at the table with the other core subjects. In the meantime, the non-profit sector will fill in as best it can, and in the process hopefully produce best practices for teaching and learning that will help move the field of arts education forward.
I am thrilled that ThisWorldMusic is a part of one such effort. Launched in 2010, The Boston Symphony Orchestra (BSO) Academy Initiative is a program that READ MORE →


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Category Main Page
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Foods From A To Z
May 2010
Mendiants (the French word for "mendicant"), called chocolate bark in English, are bars or disks of chocolate studded with nuts and dried fruits. Sometimes candy used: Peppermint bark is a popular example.
Unlike chocolate bars, that enrobe the nuts and fruits, mendiants are made so that the beauty of the different nuts and fruits are studded provide visual appeal as well as complex flavor.
Aside from being a delicious way to enjoy chocolate, mendiants have a historic significance. Originally made as Christmas candy, the colors of the nuts and fruits referenced the color of the monastic robes of the orders of the Augustinians (hazelnuts), Carmelites (almonds), Dominicans (raisins) and Franciscans (dried fig) Today, a wider palette of fruits, peels and seeds are used.
Mendiants are typically made into large slabs and then broken into smaller pieces (bark). Some chocolatiers make them into individual chocolate bars and round disks.
Most of us would turn into beggars and ask for another piece...and another.
This recipe is adapted from Field Guide To Candy by Anita Chu. You can make it up to a week in advance and store in an airtight container in a cool, dry place.
Once you get the hang of making bark, it may become one of your favorite confectionary pursuits. The potential combinations of flavors—and opportunities for your artistry—are endless.
Plan your recipe by starting with your favorite chocolate: dark, milk or white (the better quality the chocolate, the finer the end product).
Then, plan your inclusions. Choose from your favorite flavors:
How To Temper Chocolate
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Oysterband (originally The Oyster Band) is an English electric folk or folk rock band formed in Canterbury in or around 1976.
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Who cares why he left! The good thing is he is gone
The above post is not subject to penalty under the TOS I declare the Hayden Fox defense. " It is impossible for the staff to know my context therefore I cannot be penalized"
When healthy Long is an all pro. Has anyone thought that his feeling towards this organization might have soured after we let go of Henne? He played with him all through college then get drafted on the same team. I could see a scenario where he was pissed that Henne got cut and he knew he was the best LT in the league and just wanted to give a giant FU to the phins.
I am glad he's gone. I really used to like him till I went to see the dolphins play live for the first time. It was in Dallas and when he passed 2 feet from me I tried to talk to him and he just blew me off. Ever since then I have disliked him. That's why this does not surprise me that he signed with the rams because of his attitude. Oh and btw davon bess and Brandon Marshall took 2 minutes of their time to talk to me.
Does not surprise me if true. I recall stories in the media before the 2008 draft that he did not want to go to Miami, more a mid west kind of guy. Either way, it does not matter now.
Last edited by SnakeoilSeller; 05-01-2013 at 08:01 AM.
The saddest part is that with Volin leaving, we don't have many writers left, and the ones who already cover the team SUCK. I hope the PBP replaces Volin with someone worth while. This guy is terrible.
Either way, Long is gone. I'm fairly positive we were outbid by the Rams. Long had too much back and forth to simply drive up the price.
To be fair to jake he put his body on the line for this organisation. While injured he continued to play even though it was already a lost season (Sparano you ****ing idiot). I love jake long but I was glad he did not resign. IMO we have to find out what we have in Martin and bring in a RT like Winston.
We are changing to a more pass orientated offense with a ZBS. Maybe Jake just felt that the Power running Rams, would suit his skill set better.
When I die I want to hire the Miami Dolphin's to be my pallbearers so they can let me down one last time.
Jake Long can go **** himself as far as I am concerned. He cares only about money, and not championships.
Miami Dolphins '13: 0-0-0


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Gary, what part of Texas? That is a very nice job.Originally Posted by garybdavis
Results 11 to 20 of 65
Thread: Gary's Welding Trailer Project
01-17-2006, 08:25 PM #12Senior Member
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
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- Texas
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I like your attention to detail, well done Gary
01-17-2006, 08:33 PM #13Senior Member
Originally Posted by cope
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Posts
- 348
Hobby welder to hobby welder, that is very, very nice ... looks you went the extra mile to have it just the way you wanted it. My best friend who passed away a few years ago was displaced in NM from Denton, TX and he always said "it's good enough for who it's for", that can be taken lots of ways but I prefer to think it means work on it till its the best you can do, it shows that you have done that. Sorry for the long speach, but I really am impressed.Regards, George
Hobart Handler 210 w/DP3035 - Great 240V small Mig
Hobart Handler 140 - Great 120V Mig
Hobart Handler EZ125 - IMO the best 120V Flux Core only machine
Miller Dynasty 200DX with cooler of my design, works for me
Miller Spectrum 375 - Nice Cutter
01-17-2006, 10:49 PM #15Senior Member
Originally Posted by garybdavis
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- Sep 2002
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- Clark County, NV
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But it was a pain sometimes. Now, I'm putting everything on the truck and converting the trailer to flatbed with walls strictly for hauling material and projects.
01-17-2006, 11:57 PM #16Junior Member
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
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- Niagara Falls, N.Y.
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excelent work
I made two welding trucks and made my living off them for 20 years and I have to say nothing I have ever made looked better then your welding trailer. I would like to offer a different way to build for the next one.where your leads are located I would have put the o/a bottles with the ox bottle thru the floor as low as posible with out draging the ground even in the ruff and built the frame to cover the top of the cylinders with the gages on so you can drive down the road with out taking them off. If you use your trailer for many years think how many times you have to take your gages off to drive some were leagally and I think it would be easer to load and un load the tanks from the back were the fender would not be in the way. I also would put the leads up to the fender and a little higher with a wrap bracket on the bottom as you have on the top that way you can wrap your cables tight and run a chain and padlock for securtie. This is just food for thought that is what these forums are for. JIM
01-18-2006, 06:46 AM #17lramberson Guest
I am blue with envy
I would not change a thing.
01-18-2006, 07:07 AM #18Senior Member
Originally Posted by hondacycleman1
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
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- 348
01-18-2006, 07:56 AM #19lramberson Guest
Better Idea, e-mail and I will be there in about 8 hrs. and take your problem away for the material cost & a small contribution for your labor
Then you can start over with a clean slate & we both win
01-18-2006, 08:37 AM #20Junior Member
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Location
- Niagara Falls, N.Y.
- Posts
- 29
I never would have offered my reply if I thought you would do that.Your rig is top notch use it and keep in mind how could I improve the next one.Nothing man makes will be perfect The things I see different are because my jobs and location were different. Some jobs would require me to change bottles 4 times in a week and a k ox bottle is a bear to lift. Some times I would have to be in a place where theft was a serious concern ( I locked everything ,gear shift in reverse and padlocked, and I used a pipe cut in half and hinged over my gages at the attachment nut and pad locked, cables rapped tight with chain criscrosed and pad locked.) and I still worried.
Your rig is top notch now go make some money.


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Close to the Norfolk concerts; good breakfast; the 'suite' was a nice place for a party of 3.
Staff very friendly and efficient
Shelf over sink was badly located. Near the road....traffic noise
quiet location. Clean but dumpy.
the bed was awful..better to have slept on the floor. We had to leave before our time was up because of this. Lots of stairs to climb to the room. The place needs fixing up esp. painting!
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In the classroom
In the Montessori classroom, the day begins with calendar time, in which the students determine the day of the week, date, weather, and how many children are at class. After calendar is work time, when the students work on Montessori lessons and have a snack. Then we go outside for a play break, followed by lunch. After lunch, in the half day classroom, a new group of students arrives. In the full day classroom, it\'s nap time. The day ends with another work time, snack, and play break.


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Henry C. Friedl, 81, of Jersey Hollow Rd. in Little Valley, N.Y. ,died peacefully on Monday, Nov. 26, 2012.
He was born Sept. 29, 1931 in St. Marys, the son of the late Charles and Bertha (Wonderly) Friedl. He married Bonnie Hart-Friedl, who survives.
He was a veteran, having served in the U.S. Air Force from 1951-1953. He worked as an over-the-road truck driver. He was an avid outdoorsman and a member of the Little Valley American Legion.
Carmen A. Tegano, 84, of Christ The King Manor, DuBois, passed away, Monday, Nov. 26, 2012, at his residence.
He was born Aug. 29, 1928, in Ridgway, the son of Joseph P. and Villa (Eleanor) Rosario Tegano. He married Elizabeth Ellen Eckl, she predeceased him on Oct. 6, 1981.
Elizabeth A. Rees, 95, of 224 Emmett St., Ridgway, died Monday evening, November 26, 2012, at the Ridgmont Assisted Living Facility following a brief illness.
She was born November 21, 1917 in Ridgway, daughter of the late Zachary and Angela (DiNardo) Gasbarre.
She married Karl E. (Kelly) Rees on May 8, 1948 in St. Leo Catholic Church, and he preceded her in death on December 19, 2009.
Agnes M. Auman, 92, a resident of Pinecrest Manor and formerly of Elk Towers and a former resident of Ridgway, died Monday, Nov. 26 at Pinecrest Manor after a brief illness.
She was born July 23, 1920, in St. Marys, daughter of the late Simon and Frances Fruehstorfer Schafman. On Oct. 25, 1941, in the St. Joseph Monastery, she married Eugene G. Auman, who preceded her in death on Aug. 26, 1983.
Frank J. "Cannonball" Carnovale, age 92, of Market Street, Johnsonburg, died Friday, Nov. 23, 2012 at Elk Regional Hospital after a short illness.
He was born June 12, 1920 in Johnsonburg, son of the late Michael J. & Angela (Galati) Carnovale, both deceased.
A member of the Holy Rosary Church, Piedmonte, Johnsonburg Moose, Legion and Sportsmen's, he had resided in Johnsonburg all his life. Served as an MP in the Army during WWII in the Asiatic/Pacific Theaters. He retired from Johnsonburg Paper Mill in 1982 after 43 years and being part of the Woodyard Spruce Gang.
Ardeth O. Lauffenburger, 71, passed into the next life Friday, Nov. 9, 2012, following an extended illness. She was born April 16, 1941, in Warren, to the late Wallace and Florence Fox Outrid.
A 1959 graduate of Warren High School, she had been employed by the Warren Times and the Ruth Smith Center. As a lifelong area resident, Ardeth enjoyed drawing, painting, and crafts, creating numerous plush pets and dolls.
Joan Ordiway, 81, of 94 Lincoln St., Ridgway, died Friday, Nov. 16, 2012.
She had the benefit of kind help at generations and Pine Crest over the past months.
This was only fair since she had been kind and helpful to others her entire life, especially young Air Force wives.
She is survived by her husband, Vernon; sons Lester and Frank; a sister, Sarha; and a niece, Sondra.
Her body has been donated to the anatomical board.
Laetitia M. "Lettie" (White) McHale, 55, of Cranberry Township, died Thursday evening, Nov. 15, 2012, after an extended illness.
Patricia Pontzer Lanese, 72, of Highland View Health Care in Brockway, passed away Thursday, Nov. 15, 2012, at her residence.
She was born Feb. 16, 1940, in Ridgway, the daughter of Robert and Bertha Friery Pontzer. She graduated from Ridgway Area High School, Class of 1958.
Joanne B. Hoffman, 78, of 1935 Bear Creek Rd., died following Wednesday evening, Nov. 14, 2012, at the home of her daughter following an illness of the past nine months.
She was born July 25, 1934 in Ridgway, daughter of the late Earl T. and Marie P. [Baumgratz] Steis.
She married David L. Young on Dec. 10, 1953, he preceded her in death on Dec. 11, 1988; she then married James A. Hoffman on Feb. 14, 1990, and he survives.


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HEAD's Novak Djokovic is aiming for a quick return to the clay after battling right wrist pain in a 5-7, 2-6 loss in the semi-finals of the Monte Carlo Masters. Djokovic was defending the title he won a year ago when he ended the win streak of Rafael Nadal with a victory in the final.
But it was not to be for the Racquet Rebel as he took a loss to Roger Federer after defeating the Swiss last month for the Indian Wells Masters title. The player who recommends the HEAD Graphene Speed, will stay at his Monte Carlo base to rehab his wrist, which he says doctors tell him needs nothing more than rest.
With the countdown to Roland Garros ticking over and the ATP clay season underway, the HEAD player wants to make sure he is fully fit before continuing the battle to seize the top ranking while currently standing second to Rafael Nadal. The HEAD player has been carrying the wrist problem since winning back-to-back Masters 1000 titles in the US in March,
"I had two weeks between Miami and Monte Carlo. It's not like I was tired or I had some long trips or something like that. It just happened during the practice week. Sometimes it just happens. Sometimes it's not predictable," said the Racquet Rebel, who is looking at the positives of his opening week on clay.
"At the end of the day, the end of the tournament, semi-finals is a good result. But I'm disappointed that I could not play as well as I could have. I gave my best really; I'm just very disappointed I wasn't able to give better effort.
For more information please visit:


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- Olena Ursu
- Kyiv
- Ukraine
This conversation is closed.
Local governments provide better services when they engage citizens in co-designing and improving the service
Fullly agree with Beth Noveck: transparency of the Government itself does not change anything and does not solve the local problems without combining it with the next step - meaningful citizens' participation and collaboration for the chage.
In Ukraine where I'm from 54% of citizens are fully or mostly unsatisfied with the quality of administrative service provision. Reasons include complexity of the administrative procedures; lack of proper information from the authorities; lengthy terms of service provision; uncomfortable work schedules of the administrative bodies; and many others. But can citizens influence this situation?
Effective mechanisms of raising citizens' concerns to provide their feedback to the local authorities and, most importantly, to make sure that this feedback is translated into the real actions to improve the quality of service provision, are still lacking.
One of the models which was experimented in L'viv municipality is a "Secret Client" model within which the organised groups of volunteers attend the administrative bodies to get some service and then report to the municipality through the active local CSO with their recommendations for improving the quality of this service.
There is also a number social innovation projects helping to engage citizens for constructive monitoring and oversight on administrative service provision in the couontry.
Our idea is to collect the most efficient models of engaging citizens by the local governments for the sake of improvement of the administrative services they provide.
We are sure that the TED community accumulated rich knowledge on the topic, which you could help us to reach. Please tell us about all experiences which you may recommend as a smart practice of public oversight on administrative service provision, be it Web 2.0 based initiatives or real-life exercises accomplished in your countries. We will be sincerely grateful for all thoughts and ideas you share with us.
Keith W
Apr 13 2013: I just really dont think "Governments" are the solution federally or locally. I Live in Chicago which, as far as local governments go, is the most corrupt in America. A good government is much like a good economy in that it works the best when people have both freedom and faith in the system. I dont know Ukraines deal but if there isnt a level of legitimacy in your government there is no hope. As corrupt as politics is here In Illinois, at least 4 of the last 7 governors have been indicted and two are in prison. I say that because it re enforces the notion that nobodys above the law. When people feel like the governments untouchable they become disillusioned. Media and organizations a good way to spark change.
- +1
Apr 15 2013: Hi, Keith, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think governments are our reality, so we just have to find the best way to deal with them. If we doubt their legitimacy, the only thing we can do is to permanently monitor and control them. We are going to use the civil society organisations for this purpose. And we'll definitely involve media, sure. Hopefully, we'll be able to demonstrate the change.
Jim Ryan
Apr 1 2013: Olena, in essence, you would be taking away the power and control from the administrators. Don't the administrators get kickbacks or bribes, to arrange details that would benefit some more than others? That's what happens here. If gov use intelligent actions in one place, the general public might demand the gov use those same actions everywhere. It takes oversight to bring about what is best. People in power won't allow that. You have a good idea.
- +1
Apr 1 2013: Thank you very much for your support, Jim, it's really important for us as the project team at this stage. In our Ukrainian public administration system local governments are responsible for the administrative service provision to citizens not only in part of their own responsibilities as defined by legislation, but also in part of the state responsibilities delegated by the central government. So actually all the interaction with the citizens takes place through the local governments. With the help of public oversight we hope to improve the administrative service provision to the citizens of at least 15 Ukrainian municipalities. Thanks for your contribution!
Apr 1 2013: Interesting Olena. I hope it works great. It would be the first time gov limits its own power. The problem is, the top gov will be limiting local governments power and in so doing, local governments will want to help to limit the top officials in return. That would be great. It will be interesting to see how far it goes. Please keep me informed if you can and thank you. I love it!Apr 1 2013: The internet has made direct participation in government more feasible. There's a US House Representative, Justin Amash (R-MI), who reports his votes to facebook and explains the bills. He's been pushing for other congressmen to do the same. Maybe that's what got him kicked off the budget committee... but he set an example.
Also for the federal level in the US we have sites like govtrack.us and opencongress.org. But these are third party solutions. From what I read here, you seem to be more interested in structural changes, bringing various institutions up to speed with the 21st century. I don't know how things run in Ukraine, so I have no comment there. Most US agencies wield outsourced executive power with absolutely no democratic system to them, so here I expect solutions to look more like a feedback page on a company website. Like the White House's "We the People" page - https://petitions.whitehouse.gov. They have a "terms of service" that sounds like a software license; they maintain "signature thresholds" and you agree they can remove signatures and petitions, block IP addresses, you must be 13 and older, etc. In reality, there's really no benefit to using this system over a petition hosted elsewhere. The administration did it for their image, for the same reason any company would. Personally I'm a fan of third party solutions and community effort over any actual structural change. But I absolutely agree with you and Beth Noveck, a brilliant system is pointless if the citizen base is lame.
I would love to see a more open government. But open is a degree, open-source is not. A free market (without patents) is open-source. Anyone can contribute to anything, and if a controlling party turns down a change then the would-be contributor is free to fork the whole project. So if I don't like your restaurant Sizzling Steaks, I'm free to start my own called Sizzling Sirloins. But government is not at all open-source, it can't be forked. It's totalitarian and pervasive
Apr 1 2013: Dear Fred, thanks for your great comments indeed. I really enjoyed reviewing the platform "We the People". In Ukrainian reality all possible crowdsourcing platforms are just starting to develop, there are just a few really good projects which proved their efficiency, and the process is really slow. http://ukryama.com/ is one of such projects - it's where citizens report about the condition of the roads where they walk/drive. It may not be interesting for you, but for Ukraine where the quality of the roads is really poor it is critically important for all citizens, drivers first of all. Yes, we would also like to see the open-source government. We'll see what kind of projects our partners will come up with. Thanks for your contribution!
pat gilbert
Mar 26 2013: Olena
- +1
This conversation may be of some use:
I still think in your case the question is the answer. This subject might be in pioneer land
Mar 27 2013: Thanks a lot, Pat, for this very interesting link. I will explore the conversation in details.Apr 2 2013: "Serving for people" it is our goverment's working slogan.It was from our first premier Zhou.Mr.Zhou EnLai was the most great premier in my country.He devoated his whole life for chinese people.He is the best example of being an official to implement what is'Serving for people'.
Apr 2 2013: Thank you! I wish all the governments in our countries followed the same slogan.Apr 1 2013: I would also point out, that if any gov actually does what's best for the people, that country will far surpass all other nations in so very many ways, of course depending on size and resources. Of course all the other countries would then be very angry with the nation that allowed such, because it will expose the other nations leaders as inept.Apr 1 2013: Olena, depending on your position, you might want to keep a watchful eye on the future. This project is doomed to failure---at least from what I know. I would say to you, if you have any position and power, push it as hard as you can, until the top people call a halt to it. Once they call a halt you will have 2 choices. The first choice is to acquiesce and the second is to fight, showing all the good things. If you acquiesce, its likely you get nothing. If you fight, they may offer you a better position, just to shut you up. That's how power works, from all I see.
Apr 1 2013: Jim, I'm a project manager, so trust me, I will do my best to keep a watchful eye on the project implementation. In order to minimize the risk of failure we will select for partnership those municipalities with which we have long history of prior partnership and good track of record of the successfully implemented initiatives together with the local communities. And I'm a fighter by nature :)
Apr 1 2013: Understood, stay smart!
Apr 1 2013: Thank you!Apr 1 2013: Thank you and your welcome.Mar 31 2013: local governments as central ones they care about their personal benefits at present and in the future, they should be eliminated and replaced by virtual citizen contributions.
Apr 1 2013: Impossible, I think. At least, in Ukraine. No virtual citizens contribution will replace the function to coordinate public services provision; in our local context, it's all done by the municipality. Citizens' associations perform this function only for 15% of citizens living in the multiapartment housesMar 29 2013: You might want to look at the site of the BMW Guggenheim lab. They have spent twelve weeks in the last year in each of three cities, engaging local populations in discussion of the cities' most urgent problems in the eyes of the citizenry and strategies they can and are taking to address these problems. This engagement included professionals as well as anyone interested.
In 2012, the Lab visited New York, Berlin, and Mumbai. Their findings in each place are on the site as well as video of many of the events. There has also been a thorough blog keeping account of descriptive details.Mar 26 2013: My career involved much training and some practice in systems analysis. We learned very early that close and thorough engagement with the users of a system was necessary to develop a decent system.
It is amazing to me that governments can be so far behind the private sector. I have recently been helping a recipient of government health services. The processes involved are absurd. They expect people who are chronically ill and debilitated to absorb thick books of information and fill out forms that require twenty pages. I am sure that many people never manage to complete all the work required and just go without services they need.
When developing government service processes, it is ESSENTIAL to engage the citizens who are being served. The "Secret Client" approach would be a good way to check on the results, but not a good method to design a new approach. My method included interviewing everyone involved and developing lists of everyone's requirements. When one person has the whole picture and understands all of the requirements, then that person can find an approach that will best satisfy everyone. In the case of government services, the needs of the people being served should have top priority.
Mar 27 2013: Thanks a lot, Barry! It is very interesting. How did you prepare your interview questions? Did you follow some specific pethodology of systsms analysis? In Ukraine, the area of "administrative service" is quite specific - it's the results of some beurocracy, the fact of getting an administrative service is some paper document - certificate, allowance, approval etc. So I am just trying to understand did you adjust some typical questionnaire to your area (heath care services) or just used a standard questionnaire from some methodology? I would be interested to learn more about the latter in this case.
Mar 27 2013: I became acquainted with a few methodologies, and found all of them to have deficiencies. (In part because they are intellectual property and one cannot copy features of another.) Whenever possible I observed people while they were performing their jobs and learned everything I could about the whole process. Often, the most important aspects of a job are the things people do without thinking about them, and these things are often forgotten during interviews. I am sure that some government clerks go the extra mile and do things for their clients that are not technically part of their job. They may not want to admit doing those things that their clients consider to be the most valuable. If you get involved in the nuts and bolts of this, be sure to check the top drawers of every desk for little note pads. These will have hand written notes about how the job really gets done.
Good luck.
Mar 27 2013: Thank you, Barry, for the very inspiring and practical; advice! Much appreciated. Honestly, office clerks in the municipalities often to their job nicely, but also are relucktant to any changes, even if those changes are for the better. One city mayor in Ukraine issued an official regulation regarding the telephone conversations with clients. Intead of "hello, ____ listening" he obliged the municipal staff to say "Good morning. ____, internal policies department, how can I help you?". This last part "how can I help you" was the most difficult for the employees in practices, they really couldn't force themselves to ask citizens how they could help them :)Mar 26 2013: It i true, probably too much! Internet search is what we are already doing. By the way, Internet mostly says about the cases of web 2.0 projects of this nature, and very little about real-life experiences. Also, we haven't met any examples about citizens' monitoring specifically over administrative service provision (interaction with the authorities regarding issuance of various allowances, certificates, etc). And also we are still hoping that we'll find people with firt-hand experiences to talk to:)Mar 26 2013: Much has been written about engaging residents of a place in problem-solving, or "bottom-up" approaches for improving quality of life in cities. An internet search would probably be a very fruitful first approach.Mar 26 2013: Absolutely
But you came to wrong place for advise. Most TED participants are retarded on this subject and in favor of being told what to do by a central government.
But the main thing is have a small government. Which is in opposition to Beth Noveck as in all reality government is mainly to supply a rule of law and a national defense. Everything else is superfluous or counterproductive to a better life for it's citizens. It has been proven endlessly that economic freedom is the key to a better standard of living.
Mar 26 2013: Thank you, Pat! I went to many different places at a time. And I also have hopes for TED community as people with the most innovative and unbiased thinking!
Mar 26 2013: Olena
I like the idea that this foments people doing for themselves and a reciprocal reduction in the size of government.
I recommend that you be your own adviser (NO ONE KNOWS BETTER THAN YOU) and keep doing what is working.
But this crowd likes centralized government that makes them feel warm fuzzy. Which is the antithesis of what you are talking about.
Apr 1 2013: I agree with you, Pat, we should go for the working approaches. But it's always good to listen to some other people's thoughts and advice, even just for inspiration or maybe for some great news ideas. E.g. your recommendation helps me to feel more confident about my future plans :) Thank you for that!!Apr 24 2013: I have to disagree Pat. Central government is the reflection of the desires of the majority of the people. 300 million people with 300 million different ideas about what a governemt should be does not create governmental bodies. They are constantly at odds with one another.
It is only through consensus, particianship, and negotiation that they can form a body of communalisim.
Only when a central functioning body of govenment is established that can care for the basic needs of the active body of partisipants, can the size of the govenment be established. Once established, the size can vary according to the creative inputs of the individuals.
For instance. If we all obeyed the traffic laws, there would be no need for the expenditure of traffic police. If everyone were educated in the activity of Emergency services, and maintained basic equipment at home or in our vehicle, we could reduce the size of emergency services to transportating stabalized victems to the hospital.
It's the cumulative desire of individuals to live together, in harmoney and self-sacrifise to the common good, that will reduce the need for a central governing body.
In the meantime, we need to sucure our rights by instituting govenments that deprive us of individual self-justice, hopefully giving us a warm and fuzzy feeling of comfort and knowledge that we have a functional governing structure that will enable us to jointly solve all of societies problems.Apr 24 2013: I'm shocked that you disagree with me.
Centralized government squashes the individual and creates a collective of zombies.


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Topic: Leica M240 review (Read 68208 times)
Sr. Member
Posts: 769
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #60 on:
April 24, 2013, 11:21:43 AM »
Quote from: ErikKaffehr on April 24, 2013, 11:03:17 AM
Which later model of the DMR do you mean?
There isn't a newer sensor in Canon, Nikon, Pentax or Sony DSLR camera that comes close to the DMR's color quality. If you want to argue, argue with my pictures. My next show is May 19 at the California Foundatin for Birds of Prey.
Ben Rubinstein
Sr. Member
Posts: 1736
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #61 on:
April 24, 2013, 02:10:16 PM »
What an arrogant reply.
Sr. Member
Posts: 8786
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #62 on:
April 24, 2013, 02:43:12 PM »
My guess is that the industry cannot survive on customers making a purchase of a camera body and a few lenses for a lifetime. They need to have customers coming back and upgrade. Customer satisfied for life pretty much means system going to grave.
By the way, would you post a link to your images or show a website we could perhaps see some pictures? You don't happen to be the "Birdman of Sacramento", if so, you have a lot of great images!
I am actually using my real name and my pictures are here:
Best regards
Quote from: wildlightphoto on April 24, 2013, 11:21:43 AM
There isn't a newer sensor in Canon, Nikon, Pentax or Sony DSLR camera that comes close to the DMR's color quality. If you want to argue, argue with my pictures. My next show is May 19 at the California Foundatin for Birds of Prey.
Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 12:25:14 AM by ErikKaffehr
Erik Kaffehr
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Sr. Member
Posts: 1301
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #63 on:
April 24, 2013, 06:01:01 PM »
Quote from: wildlightphoto on April 24, 2013, 11:21:43 AM
There isn't a newer sensor in Canon, Nikon, Pentax or Sony DSLR camera that comes close to the DMR's color quality. If you want to argue, argue with my pictures. My next show is May 19 at the California Foundatin for Birds of Prey.
Geez. I assume "DMR" means
Digital M Rangefinder
, but if not...
me, I guess I don't belong to the freakin' club. Not sure I want to in any case.
Personally, I'm not much of a resolution guy. I care a lot more about compositional geometry and tonality. A friend of mine paints with acrylics on gesso board...most of her paintings contain more detail than most of my photos.
I have an M240 on order because I like the convenience & flexibility of electronic photography and want to combine that stuff with RF handling, framing & focusing. That the camera has 24mp instead of 16 or 18 doesn't matter much to me. I never print larger than 12x18", except for the occasional stitched pano at 10x30" or so. One thing I am interested in, though, is processing the camera's RAW data into 6mp true RGB images...each four-photosite matrix corresponding to one output pixel. That should yield interesting results.
I'm a live & let live kinda guy. If ultimate spatial resolution is your thing, have at it. If "cameras as jewelry" is your thing...whatever. If "cameras as jewelry" folks drive you around the bend...take a deep breath and relax; those people help keep Leica in business. If you're a geometry/tonality person like me...great, welcome to our little club!
Sr. Member
Posts: 9171
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #64 on:
April 24, 2013, 09:46:54 PM »
A few comments about Mark Dubovoy's review that seem relevant to me.
First, it's quite common for a particular model of camera to initially produce a different color balance and contrast which may be either more pleasing or less pleasing than that produced by another model of camera when using the same 'As Shot' white balance and the same default adjustments in the RAW converter.
For those who are pressed for time and need to process images quickly for whatever reason, this aspect of camera performance can be seen as an advantage, just as a camera that can produce surprisingly good jpegs can be considered to have an advantage. I'm reminded here of the recent battles between the Canon 5D3 and the Nikon D800. The 5D3 jpegs seem to have better in-camera processing than the D800 jpegs.
However, for those of us who who have the luxury of time on our side and can afford to experiment with the options available in ACR and Photoshop to get the most pleasing result, such an initial advantage with the default processing may not be such a big deal.
Secondly, even different lenses used on the same camera body can produce a slightly different color balance and contrast, using the same default setting in ACR. Again, clarity, sharpening and white balance usually have to be adjusted to taste. If one particular lens and camera combination produces better results from the start, then that might be seen as a time-saving advantage.
Thirdly, the point about the D800E being flawed in the sense that it has two unnecessary filters in the path of the light, is a valid one. Nothing is perfect. That those two 'do' and 'undo' AA filters will degrade the image to some degree is a very reasonable deduction. What is debatable is whether or not such degradation would be noticeable in practice. I always felt that the increase in resolution of the D800E, compared with the D800, was less than expected.
Fourthly, I
surprised at the following comment from Mark Dubovoy.
Handheld shooting. Shooting without a tripod the Leica out-resolves the Nikon (D800E). This is not surprising given the mirror slap and rougher shutter in the Nikon.
My understanding of the effects of mirror slap and shutter noise is that they have a noticeable effect on image quality
only within a particular range of slow shutter speeds
, typically between 2 seconds and 1/60th, and that applies when the camera is used on a tripod. When the camera is hand-held, there must be a degree of cushioning that takes place, so it would be reasonable to deduce that any very slight effect from mirror slap that might be apparent at 1/60th with camera on tripod, would not be apparent when the camera is hand-held at 1/60th.
Furthermore, since I think I am correct in assuming that the Leica M240 does not boast image stabilization, one would have to have a very wide-angle lens on the camera in order to use a shutter speed as slow as 1/60th, if resolution was a priority.
Sr. Member
Posts: 8786
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #65 on:
April 24, 2013, 11:52:00 PM »
The DMR was a Digital Module for the Leica R series of SLRs, it was made between 2005 and 2007 I think.
Best regards
Quote from: Telecaster on April 24, 2013, 06:01:01 PM
Geez. I assume "DMR" means
Digital M Rangefinder
, but if not...
me, I guess I don't belong to the freakin' club. Not sure I want to in any case.
Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 12:27:49 AM by ErikKaffehr
Erik Kaffehr
Articles on photography
My presence on SmugMug (new)
Visit my personal website
Jr. Member
Posts: 95
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #66 on:
April 25, 2013, 12:31:34 AM »
I distinctly recall an article in Popular Photography in the 90's that tested shutter speeds from 1/15th sec through 1/1000 and there were noticeable improvements up to and including 1/250... so the advantages of faster shutter speeds with respect to noticeable sharpness improvement far exceeds 1/60th. Digital places higher demands on image quality (optics) than film ever did so I can only assume that these test results would be even more obvious with the current high pixel density sensors on modern digital cameras.
Sr. Member
Posts: 9171
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #67 on:
April 25, 2013, 02:57:29 AM »
Pity you can't find the details, such as model of camera, focal length of lens, whether tripod or hand-held, and sturdiness of tripod if tripod was used, and general conditions such as outdoors or indoors etc.
I have of course conducted my own tests years ago with various camera bodies, using lenses up to 400mm. As I recall, I was not able to detect any increase in resolution at shutter speeds faster than 1/60th, shooting a static target and using a sturdy tripod which was not subject to any movement from wind or breeze.
In fact, with certain cameras, as I recall, such as the Canon 20D, I was not able to discern any increase in resolution even at 1/60th with MLU enabled, compared with 1/60th without MLU enabled. But this was not the case with the 5D which I tested at the same time in the same circumstances. That camera, using the same lens, and despite its lower pixel density, showed improvement all the way up to and including 1/60th. However, at 1/125th there was no difference whether MLU was enabled or not.
I accept the fact that the upper limit of 1/60th for the benefits of MLU on a tripod, is not a hard and fast rule. The size and weight of the mirror and the degree of dampening will affect the result, as it did comparing my 20D with the 5D, but my point is that Mark D is referring to hand-held shots where additional dampening is in place simply by holding the camera. Also, without image stabilization, far faster shutter speeds than 1/60th will usually be required if one is attempting to extract the maximum resolution for comparison purposes.
Therefore, if the Leica M240 appears to produce sharper results than the D800E, when both cameras are hand-held, using the same focal length of lens, then it does not seem likely that the noisy or heavy mirror or shutter in the D800E is the cause, but rather that the Leica camera is easier to hold steady, or the Leica lens is simply sharper than the Nikkor lens used on the D800E.
Another possibility, apart from possible misfocussing, is the natural variation in the degree of hand-held movement which is always apparent when the shutter speed is maybe a bit too close to being inadequate. Take a number of hand-held shots of any static subject, using a shutter speed that is not super-fast, and you should find that certain shots will be sharper than others, despite the fact that the same camera, lens and shutter speed was used for all shots.
Recent hand-held tests that I've done using the Nikkor 85/1.8G with the D800E indicate that, for me, I need to use a shutter speed of at least 1/320th to be confident of getting a sharp image. I might be lucky with a 1/250th, but would prefer to use a 320th, 400th or even a 640th.
One should bear in mind that the 1/FL rule was for acceptably sharp 8"x10" prints in the days of film. A 100% view of an M240 or D800 image on a computer monitor is closer to an 8ft x 10ft print, depending on the size and resolution of the monitor.
Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 03:05:31 AM by Ray
Rob C
Sr. Member
Posts: 12315
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #68 on:
April 25, 2013, 03:52:32 AM »
Quote from: Ray on April 25, 2013, 02:57:29 AM
In fact, with certain cameras, as I recall, such as the Canon 20D,
I was not able to discern any increase in resolution even at 1/60th with MLU enabled, compared with 1/60th without MLU enabled.
But this was not the case with the 5D which I tested at the same time in the same circumstances. That camera, using the same lens, and despite its lower pixel density, showed improvement all the way up to and including 1/60th. However, at 1/125th there was no difference whether MLU was enabled or not.
I must agree with Ray on this. I used to do tests with each new bodies I bought in the top Nikon range, and my conclusions were the same: I couldn't tell the difference, even down in the supposed danger zone of 1/15th. As a result, I used MU (and delayed action) when shooting something still but never when simply using a slow shutter speed because I had to in order to allow suitable DOF. For anything that has its own motion, MU is a waste of time, anyway. You will inevitably hear the shutter begin just as that breeze moves the subject you'd so carefully framed. Shoot, be damned, but at least get the
you intended.
Rob C
David S
Full Member
Posts: 151
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #69 on:
April 25, 2013, 07:50:56 AM »
Shutter Speed effects on picture.
See Pg 116 (Shutter Speed) in "The Camera" by Ansel Adams. (2003 publication)
"I found that even with firm body support image sharpness was noticeably degraded at 1/125 second..."
Interesting in light of previous comments.
Dave S
Sr. Member
Posts: 9171
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #70 on:
April 25, 2013, 09:11:11 AM »
I presume Ansel Adams is referring to old and obsolete large-format equipment which didn't have a mirror but probably did have a very large mechanical shutter. In other words, a different kettle of fish.
If any of you have doubts about the effects of mirror slap and shutter vibration on the modern DSLR, you owe to yourselves to carry out some tests with your own equipment. Not much point in going to the trouble of using MLU in circumstances where it provides no benefit.
On the other hand, if you can't be bothered doing the tests, then you might as well use MLU with shutter speeds up to 1/250th, just to be safe.
Jr. Member
Posts: 95
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #71 on:
April 25, 2013, 10:11:01 AM »
The test in Popular Photography was done handheld with a 50mm lens and a test target was shot. This made it much easier to judge areas that were vibration impacted.
I'd have to agree with the test as my experience bore this out in 40 years of shooting.
Consider yourself very fortunate if your results were better.
David S
Full Member
Posts: 151
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #72 on:
April 25, 2013, 10:18:52 AM »
Maybe Ansel was talking of large cameras but nothing in the article implied just large cameras.
MLU may or may not help at higher speeds but I know from my own tests that while I can do 1/(35mm length) as shutter speed, I get better sharper results at even higher speeds. But that is just shaky old me and may not apply to others. I have also noted that time of day, how rested I am or how much coffee I have had also make differences. Again just my observations.
Dave S
Full Member
Posts: 122
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #73 on:
April 25, 2013, 10:35:11 AM »
As I was drooling over this new M240, my wife reminded me that I'm not a good enough photographer for a Leica.
She's right.
Sr. Member
Posts: 9171
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #74 on:
April 25, 2013, 11:15:36 AM »
Quote from: wildstork on April 25, 2013, 10:11:01 AM
The test in Popular Photography was done handheld with a 50mm lens and a test target was shot. This made it much easier to judge areas that were vibration impacted.
I'd have to agree with the test as my experience bore this out in 40 years of shooting.
Consider yourself very fortunate if your results were better.
We seem to be talking at cross-purposes. I've already mentioned that I would use at least a 1/320th of a second exposure with an 85mm lens on the D800E (without VR), so a 250th with a 50mm lens (without VR) when the camera is hand-held, seems about right for maximum resolution viewed at 100% on the monitor.
The point I'm raising is that at such shutter speeds mirror slap does not affect image quality. Such shutter speeds are required in order to combat camera movement when shooting hand-held, not mirror slap nor shutter vibration. Mark Dubovoy claimed that hand-held the D800E images were not as sharp as the M240 images as a result of the D800E's noisy mirror. That doesn't seem likely to me.
Rob C
Sr. Member
Posts: 12315
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #75 on:
April 25, 2013, 12:22:55 PM »
Quote from: Ray on April 25, 2013, 11:15:36 AM
Mark Dubovoy claimed that hand-held the D800E images were not as sharp as the M240 images as a result of the D800E's noisy mirror.
That doesn't seem likely to me.
Ray, have you considered Nikon's new policy regarding Final Quality Control?
Not that I'm a frequent buyer anymore, but this is the first period in my life that the last three lenses I bought were used, manual AIS Nikkors (barring the 500mm Cat, of course) and I feel safer going there than into new.
Rob C
John Camp
Sr. Member
Posts: 1312
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #76 on:
April 26, 2013, 01:46:25 PM »
My main problem with Mark's review is something that he doesn't even discuss -- that's the implication that the qualities he discusses are relevant to the practice of photography, which they aren't. Other than that, I have no problem with his review at all, since the rest of it is simply opinion. But saying that the M240 is sharper than the D800e -- a controversial statement, to say the least -- is like saying my tires are very slightly prettier than yours.
Since there is hardly any other way to discuss the subject, look, for example, at the universe of "famous" photographs. None of them depend on resolution; in fact, quite a few of them depend on a deliberate lack of resolution. If anyone is aware of an exception to this rule, please let me know. And don't say "Ansel Adams" -- as much as he may have struggled to get the sharpest possible photos, with the best placement of the exposure and subsequent processing in a chosen zone...he was working with equipment greatly inferior to the equipment we have now...lenses, film, everything. He had to struggle and to place an emphasis on sharpness, or he otherwise wouldn't have gotten any kind of acceptable quality. "Moonrise" is not what we'd call a sharp photo, and I have an extremely good example of it hanging on my living room wall, and I look at it daily, and I know; I have birthday party photos that are sharper. If Adams had had access to our equipment, I think he would have stopped worrying about sharpness altogether, and would have been perfectly happy working hand-held with a D700. The critical aspect with Adams wasn't resolution, it was talent.
To me, the original post and the subsequent comments have been like reading a discussion of which mechanical watch is best -- the Rolex, the Philippe Patek, etc. -- while ignoring the fact that a Timex keeps better time than either one. In other words, it's an obsession with operation and technique, rather than final performance. The final performance in photography, the print, may be anything a photographer chooses, but whatever he chooses, the critical element in its quality will not be resolution.
As for the comments by wildlightphoto, I've looked at his pictures for years, and he is an extremely able photographer, maybe one of the best on this website, for the kind of photography he does. But his insistence on the DMR is (IMHO) a psychological quirk, not a really defensible technical position. The DMR wasn't all that great when it first came out, and it has long been superseded by better cameras. The fact that he can't make better photos with another camera, or that he doesn't believe that any other camera can match the DMR's color, is not much different than Mark's insistence on the greatest of the M240. You have to keep in mind that as good a photographer as wildlightphoto is, there is a very large number of well-known, accomplished wildlife photographers, who, one might venture to say, match his quality, and yet don't use the DMR, and in fact use a variety of Nikons, Canons, Sonys, etc. The most you can say for the DMR is that it works well for him. Well, the other thing you can say is, even in his photos, resolution isn't all that important. Who cares if you can see the pupil of an eye, if you can feel the birdness of the bird?
Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 01:48:42 PM by John Camp
Rob C
Sr. Member
Posts: 12315
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #77 on:
April 26, 2013, 02:55:55 PM »
John Camp:
I just wish you would post more frequently.
Rob C
David Sutton
Sr. Member
Posts: 957
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #78 on:
April 26, 2013, 05:12:31 PM »
Quote from: Rob C on April 26, 2013, 02:55:55 PM
John Camp:
I just wish you would post more frequently.
Rob C
David Sutton
Sr. Member
Posts: 9171
Re: Leica M240 review
Reply #79 on:
April 26, 2013, 09:26:28 PM »
It sounds like John has been influenced by a rather controversial article that Ken Rockwell wrote a few years ago, titled "Your Camera Doesn't Matter".
That article provoked a lengthy discussion on LL at the time, with quite a few posters interpreting the statement of the title literally, and deriding Rockwell for his foolishness.
Of course such statements should not be taken literally. They are intended merely to convey the message that an excessive concern or obsession with the technical minutiae of camera performance may have little bearing on the impact of the final result.
Nevertheless, it should not be difficult to appreciate why there is such an interest in resolution. I for one take great pleasure in being able to see things clearly, as I think most people do. It's why I wear spectacles. I could get by without glasses in most situations, except when reading a book, because I'm long-sighted rather than short-sighted.
If I see a photograph that looks a bit blurry close up, I think, "Crikey! I didn't realize my eyesight was
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