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The 5 Biggest Disasters in the History of Marketing Ideas
#2. Silo -- A Shitload of Bananas
This is somewhat famous for being one of the stupider stories to ever emerge from the world of retail promotion.
Cool, informal slang is important in advertising. It catches the viewer's attention and makes him think your brand of breakfast cereal is "hip" and "edgy," and implies that using your product will finally win him some friends at school. But when employing slang, it must be made crystal clear that slang should not be taken literally. With that, let's go back to 1986.
Awesome! Jelly bracelets for everyone!
That year, Silo, a discount appliance chain, had way too many stereos and needed to sell them off for shockingly low prices. So they ran ads saying it cost only 299 bananas for a new stereo. Obviously, "bananas" means "dollars" here, though you'd be forgiven for not knowing since no one has called money "bananas" since Calvin Coolidge's day.
"That's absolutely bodacious. Possibly even groovy."
At this point, dozens of wiseass customers flocked to stores with literally 299 bananas (worth about $40). Which brings up the question: Where the fuck were people getting all these bananas? We can see a local grocery store having a total of 300 bananas on the shelf, but who the hell keeps enough on hand to serve a line of customers each asking for 50 or 60 bunches? Is there a special fruit wholesaler just for industrious smartasses?
Being an insufferable douche is just good business sense.
Anyway, the appliance store had no choice but to accept all the bananas from dozens of customers wearing what we assume were shit-eating grins. Silo lost over $10,000 in one just day, pulling the ads the next day before others could get the same idea.
The saddest part? Silo couldn't even get rid of the bananas (they had thousands of them sitting there, presumably attracting fruit flies), as the local zoos stopped taking them and the food bank didn't take perishables.
"Couldn't we just ... chuck 'em at some hobos?"
#1. Tesco and Hoover Get Beaten at Math by Their Customers
As you can see, businesses seem to consistently underestimate the savvy determination and possibly greed of their own customers. Not that we feel sorry for them.
For instance, in 2011, British supermarket chain Tesco got into a price war with competitor Asda. Tesco announced that, by god, if Asda ever beat them on a price they would pay you the difference twice over. So if you bought 10 boxes of wine for 20 pounds each at Tesco, but could prove Asda had them for only 18 pounds, you could get back 40 pounds. That is how confident Tesco was that the average Tesco customer's shopping trip would contain nothing that could be gotten cheaper at the competition.
"Wow, Gary, I know your latest review said you were out of touch, but this is a masterstroke."
But this failed to take into account several things about human nature. Specifically, it assumed that customers would still only buy the things they wanted, rather than the items that would pay off the most in the promotion. Instead, customers simply scoured the two stores for whatever odd item that 1) happened to be cheaper at Asda and 2) had a price difference that was enough for the double-the-money-back guarantee to actually get back more money than what was spent. If you found some item that Tesco had for three pounds but Asda had for one, it meant that you'd get the item for free, and Tesco would have to give you a pound on top.
"They thought me too proud to price-check that lube. They were wrong."
People shared their strategies on the Internet and came up with ways to buy enough bullshit that they didn't actually need (but that gamed the system hardest) that it would cover the rest of their grocery shopping. If buying razors let you scam a free pound out of Tesco from the promotion, you could fill your cart with them and use the profit to buy food. After losing an undisclosed (but extremely large) amount of money, Tesco has since put a cap of 20 pounds on the promotion.
That's around the average price of a person's dignity.
And it's not like they didn't have any precedent to learn from. Back in the early '90s, the Hoover Company ran a promotion offering two round-trip airline tickets to Europe or the United States with the purchase of a vacuum (which gives you an idea of how much some of these vacuums cost). They for some reason thought this would encourage customers to buy the more expensive models, because the free tickets would justify it.
For a multinational corporation, they sure do have a lot of faith in human nature.
But, as you can now guess, customers who didn't even need a vacuum, but did need airline tickets, figured out that Hoover did in fact have cheap models (the fine print set the minimum purchase at just 100 pounds). So suddenly it was worth buying a vacuum you would never use, just to get the far more expensive free tickets out of it. People bought several vacuums they didn't need with the sole point of getting the tickets. Let's just say a lot of hobos and orphans got vacuums for Christmas that year.
"I empty the bag into Paul's dumpster. He hates it."
Hoover was absolutely overwhelmed with demands for tickets and started desperately fighting the claims, either stalling or trying to convince customers to buy something else in order to offset the loss. It became a media firestorm, and Hoover ended up losing 50 million pounds in what would be the single biggest failed promotion ever.
While parent company Maytag sold the European Hoover company off as a result, claims for flights were never fully settled until 1998. This fiasco ensured a new rule in marketing: Always make sure the free item given away never exceeds the cost of the product it is paired with. Especially if it, you know, can fucking bankrupt you.
See some more poor corporate decisions in 5 Corporate Promotions That Ended in (Predictable) Disaster. Or check out the 6 Global Corporations Started by Their Founder's Shitty Luck.


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Abandoned Books
The other day I ran across an article in The Guardian that reported on a regular list published by the Travelodge Corporation noting the titles of books left behind after guests departed following their stay in one of their motels/hotels. Among the top ten last month was the latest Harry Potter. The little story got me to thinking about books that were huge disappointments. One invests some money in a eagerly awaited book only to find it a bust. Of course, the charitable explanation is that the previous owner wanted to leave the next guest something more appealing to read than the Gideon Bible (or in a Marriott: The Book of Mormon) but I am not sanguine about the plausibility of that motivation. So, Commonweal Nation, got any bad books that you would gladly leave behind? Or, simply, read anything really disappointing recently? I have at least one candidate but: you first.
About the Author
Lawrence Cunningham is John O'Brien professor of Theology (Emeritus) at the University of Notre Dame.
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Hello All,My own answer to Lawrence's question is extremely easy: H. W. Crocker's "Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church", which was published by Three Rivers Press in 2003. Since this book has been in print several years now chances are good that most participants here already know about it. But just in case any here don't know about this book I strongly recomend avoiding it.I made the mistake of buying this book after reading only a few pages, which fooled me into thinking that this book was a serious one volume history of the Roman Catholic Church. Once I started reading this book systematically, I quickly learned it is full of factual errors, relies on extremely suspect secondary literature about philosophy, history and theology, and packs plenty of diatribe against Protestants and the Orthodox. At the earliest opportunity I gave this book to one of my graduate students who is also interested in the history of the Catholic Church, after I duly warned him how bad I thought it was. He hated it, too, but I had also warned him I would not take it back from him!What I find remarkable is what a favorable reception this book has received in some quarters. "Triumph" has received praise from some serious scholars like Ralph McInerney who should know better. My graduate student wanted to read this book even though he respects my opinion because he told me he knew of a seminary where this book was being read aloud during meals. I'm sure my student was right, which frankly distresses me. No one, seminarian or otherwise, should be taught such a work and especially should not be led to believe it's good history.Okay, how was that for a tantrum!
I would leave behind anything from the Left Behind series. The writing is so bad that that they aren't even entertaining as examples of howlers. My father-in-law keeps giving them to me. I keep tossing them and they keep reappearing. I think it must be some kind of metaphysical test or something. Or maybe a punishment from God.
The latest books I couldn't finish were A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius, Mansfield Park, anything by Patrick O'Brian (loved the movie, though) and O, Pioneers!One time on retreat I threw Conjectures of a Guilty Bystander across the room and went out to watch the Mets game on TV. But that's a little personal.
Oooooh, another book post. Lawrence Cunningham, I am your fan 4-ever."Lord of the Rings." I felt compelled to slog through this because a) I was a medieval lit student and b) reading it was rumored to be a guy magnet. Except the guys it would attract never wanted to take you to dinner and a show, just blabber on about the book to prove how smart they were. I remain embittered about the hours of my life lost to this book.At least the movie had Sean Bean.All of GK Chesterton's Father Brown stories. Anything by Jan Karon and that horrid Mitford place."Stranger in a Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein. I used to want to leave a dent in people's head who used the word "grok" in conversations.More recently "The Devil Wears Prada." That girl was such a patsy, I was ready to strangle her halfway through with my pure white signature Hermes scarf. Didn't even finish it.
Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead. Good lord, what a nightmare of a book. Fortunately, my parents had just gotten a puppy, so when I read it while at home on summer vacation, the puppy tore it to shreds. I look to that as a moment of grace.
Wonderful book: A Canticle for Leibowitz, by Walter M. Miller, Jr.The sequel, a perfectly awful book: Saint Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman Terrific book: The Traveler, by John Twelve HawksThe sequel, very disappointing (although not unreadable): The Dark River
One of the "Dianetics" books by L. Ron Hubbard.I can't remember the exact title, but I had to read it for a course. The professor who assigned it was a sadist. Unbelievably a-w-f-u-l. Jean, you're killing me with adding "Lord of the Rings" to this list. :)I've read it about a dozen times, and Tolkien's genius in creating an entire world (including voluminous appendices with myriad additional details) always comes through for me. Not only is the book much better than the movies, IMO, but if I remember correctly, a poll of readers at amazon.com selected it as the most popular book of the 20th century. To each his/her own, however. :):)
A couple of years ago, the men's group in my previous parish advertised a group study of a book called "Mystery of the Kingdom" by Edward Sri, a professor of theology at Benedictine College in Atchison, Kansas. The book purported to be a study of the theme of the Kingdom of God in the Gospel of Matthew, and I was intrigued that such a heady topic would come from so parochial (sic) a group.I should have known better when I saw the endorsements on the back of the book: Scott Hahn, Curtis Martin, etc. But being a generous type, I signed up anyway. Give the guy the benefit of the doubt, I said.Well, that was a mistake. Employing a very simplistic, almost literalist hermeneutic, Sri tries to convince his readers that virtually every word and action of Jesus' was yet another thinly veiled foreshadowing of his divinity and of the coming glories of the Catholic Church. Very disappointing. I'm not sure whether I would leave this book behind for someone else to pick up. I'd probably put it in the recycling bin instead.Jean: I'm not surprised by your reaction to The Lord of the Rings. It's more of a guy thing, I think. My wife doesn't get it, either. She did, however, very graciously sit with me through all three movies (the extended versions, to boot) over the course of a recent weekend. I, on the other hand, make it a point to reread the book every year--I never tire of it.
Mark--You raise a good point. My wife and daughter are also not enamored with Lord of the Rings, but they, too, have sat through the extended versions of the movies, though not in one weekend. I think they would consider that cruel and unusual punishment. My son, on the other hand, is also a fan of the book.You and I will have to start posting here in Elvish. ;)
It's a little esoteric, but I was bored by the second volume of Anthony Kenny's memoirs, of which I forget the title, and didn't get through much of it. The first volume, Path From Rome, I found fascinating. I wonder if there are other books by people who stayed priests that have the same detailed description of what the priestly life in that era was like.We received a genuinely dreadful book called Open Marriage (I think) as a wedding present, which I threw into a box and didn't look at until about ten years later, whereupon I promptly walked to the dumpster and threw it in, and went straight into the shower. Strangely enough, this same thing happened with the same book to a friend of mine, except that it was his mother that gave them the book.I actually read The Hobbit, but gave up on the Lord of the Rings after about 100 pages without regret. I have a bit of fascination with Tolkien, but right about that time I got through Troilus and Criseide, which was much better.
Now look, men, Tolkien didn't "create a whole world." He adapted it from Norse mythology and bits of Celtic lore. While I marvel at the way Tolkien stitched bits of his source material together to play with plot ideas, language and theme, LOTR is not a good book. It's just not. The sum of some of its most wonderful parts simply don't add up to a wonderful whole. They add up to a bloody bore.Those who have female relatives and wives who have spent hours of their lives watching the movies or listening to you go on and on about the virtues of Elvish weapons vs. Dwarfish ones are blessed indeed.I urge you to show your gratitude RIGHT TODAY by running out and getting that eight-hour "Pride and Prejudice" series (not the short version with that scrawny Kiera Knightley and the Mr. Darcy who looks like Deputy Dawg). And then sit there and watch it and offer to get the drinks and popcorn.It's the least you can do.To Jeff: One smart puppy!
Jean--I'm standing pat on LOTR. ;)I doubt I can entice you to read some of the bios of Tolkien, and especially his edited letters, but there's a lot of substance behind Tolkien and LOTR, including his inclusion of Christian symbolism and themes. That he was a devout Catholic is obviously not reason enough to read his books, but IMO his books are more nuanced than they might appear at first reading. Still, I respect your choice to miss out on one of life's reading pleasures. :)As to the eight-hour "Pride and Prejudice" series (the one with Colin Firth as Mr. Darcy), I've seen it several times. It's great in every way--script, casting, acting, cinematography, etc.
William, William. Has being Catholic taught you nothing? Error has no rights!Tolkien's criticism is wonderful. So are his letters and his Catholic meditations, which I have read. Many are sitting on my bookshelf even now.And so is LOTR, every blasted word of which I have read. Hence I know of whereof I speak when I say it is an interesting synthesis and a bad novel,.Mr. Darcy agrees with me. I'll shut up now.
I'm with William on this one. The letters are quite revealing. I was especially struck by one almost throw-away sentence in a letter, I believe, to his publisher. I can't find the exact quote right now, so I will paraphrase it:"It is a thoroughly Catholic work, which of course means it is sad."Gives a good window both into the sense of melancholy that pervades the book, as well as into Tolkien's own experience of his faith as an English Catholic in the early and middle twentieth century. It also helps explain The Silmarillion, and the newly-released Children of Turin, which I gobbled up as soon as it was released.Jean, you don't know what you're missing.As for Pride and Prejudice: I bought the eight-hour movie for my wife's birthday, but we have yet to watch it. No worries, though. Given all the other romantic comedies I have watched lo these past ten years, I don't feel too bad. And yes, I do serve drinks during these screenings.But since this is supposed to be a thread about books we really don't like, I'll return to the main subject (forgive us, Prof. Cunningham!). I would include in this list Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus--The Story behind Who Changed the Bible and Why." Basically, it's the story of a sensitive Wheaton Collge student who experiences a crisis of faith when he learns about redaction criticism. If Moses or Matthew didn't write it, then it's not to be trusted. Not the kind of response I expected from a scholar. Dan Brown, perhaps, but the chairman of the Department of Religious Studies at Chapel Hill? Very disappointing.Oh, and one more thing for Mr. Collier: Elen sila lumenn omentielvoA star shines on the hour of our meeting.
William and Mark: I HAVE READ LOTR. I am not missing anything except several hours of my life spent reading it that I want back.You are both wrong and that starts with double-yoo and that stands for warg, of which I hope many dig holes in your lawn.Mr. Darcy agrees.
Romantic comedy indeed.
Did not finish:LOTR -- stopped caring about any character of any import and thought the whole work was pretty darned tedious. The problem with creating a world in the Tolkien sense is that you spend so much effort describing its details you lose every other thing that usually matters in a story.Ulysses -- Have made it on several occasions through Ch. 4 and then stopped. At one time I read the first and last paragraph of all subsequent chapters and skimmed for various "important" bits and then put it down forever. Somehow, I don't think James Joyce would mind being handled in that manner. After all, if he stood for anything, it was self-indulgent self-expression. As E.B. White once said about Joyce: It takes more than genius to keep me reading a work of fiction. (To understand why I hated Ulysses it might help to know that I think The Tin Drum is the greatest work of fiction of the 20th century. A day in the life of some guy in Dublin doesn't matter a whole lot to me.)There are any number of recent works of fiction that I consider not worth the effort (anything by Joanna Trollope?) and I have no clue how they continue to get such glowing reviews but they're usually too short not to finish. Except for A.S. Byatt: a lot of dense nothing in my opinion. For whatever it's worth.
Pride and Prejudice is Miltonian in scope. Austen examines human motivations at their strenuous heart.Guys just want to roam Middle Earth and kill Orcs.
I don't know what else to say, Jean, other than I've started a novena for you. I'll also be asking Saint J.R.R. to TRY to intercede on your behalf in heaven so that you don't get consigned to Mordor in the next life. And I agree with the multi-lingual Mark Jameson about Prof. Ehrman's latest book. A disappointment for me, too, for the reasons stated, especially after having read and enjoyed some of his earlier work.
Wasn't it Mrs. James Joyce who asked her husband, "Why don't you write books people can understand?"Yeah, I don't get the Joanna Trollope phenomenon, either. And, especially as more time goes by, the more disappointed I am with the final Harry Potter, and it has marred my happy memories of reading the previous six books.I can't say this in front of my husband or son, because the Harry canon is sacred. But, then, they like LOTR. (William, Mr. Darcy and I are touched by the novena.)
I find that books that I think I have given up on can have a second life if I pick them up at the right moment.I started Jane Smiley's 13 Ways to Read a Novel last winter and stopped after the first chapter. Summer : I picked it up again and thought it was a smart and illuminating book by a novel lover (and writer). Wonderfully interesting and intelligent. But I set it aside when she went on about Our Mutual Friend (Charles Dickens) being perhaps the greatest novel in the English language. I read his 800 pages on vacation (Penguin edition). One of the few Dickens's I'd never read, I found it fascinating--since the serial nature of its composition positively jumped off the page and the convergences were definitely deus ex .... So not the greatest novel in the English language, but wonderful for a Dickens lover to see him struggling along (it was I think his last completed novel). Will finish Smiley this week-end!I have definitely abandoned Robert Schrum's No Excuses: The Confessions of a Serial Campaigner. The man (Kerry's campaign manager) is shameless! Will send it to anyone who wants to pay the postage.
And Larry, have you told us yet what you've abandoned?
Since it is Friday afternoon and I have made a solemn vow never to turn on my computer over the weekend, I guess it is time to name a disappointing book. I eagerly awaited James J. O'Donnell's biography of Saint Augustine because of my enormous admiration for his three volume commentary on The Confessions (a work I still use fairly often). To my chagrin, his biography was a work, by turns,sour and snotty. I finished it despite my antipathy at its tone. It still sits on a table and I doubt I will ever look at it again.P.S. I read the above posts with interest but truth demands that I confess never having read a line of Tolkein nor any Harry Potter or the fiction/phantasy of C.S. Lewis although, in the latter case, I did read bits to my children, long ago, to keep them quiet in the car until we came into view The Golden Arches.
Re: Jane Smiley -- I haven't been able to finish anything she wrote after "The Greenlanders," a book that I picked up in S.F. 10 years ago and couldn't put down, until it became incredibly painful (in the empathetic sense) to read, at which point, I read it only a couple of pages at a time until the end. The drama and eloquence of that work make everything else she has done thereafter seem pale in comparison.Re: O'Donnell -- I read that book while on maternity leave. I'm not a scholar so no doubt I don't have the same frame of reference and didn't have the same reaction. I do think that it's virtually impossible to recreate in a personal sense the life of anyone who lived so long ago. I found the commentary interesting and read several of the books referenced in footnotes. It was very critical, to be sure, with some hyperbole -- like the suggestion that the fast rise of Islam in North Africa can be attributed at least in part to the overall weakening of loyalty of Donatists to the Church as a result of Augustine's resolution of that matter. That seemed over the top to me.
Kathy writes:Pride and Prejudice is Miltonian in scope. Austen examines human motivations at their strenuous heart. Guys just want to roam Middle Earth and kill Orcs.Mark replies:I didn't intend to put the novel Pride and Prejudice on the same level as the current crop of romantic comedies I have imbibed with my beloved. I'm sure Jane Austen is not easily reducible to 100 minutes with Keira Knightley and Deputy Dawg. I've never read Austen, so I can't comment. All I know is the aforementioned Pride and Prejudice film, the Gwynneth Paltrow Emma, and the Alicia Silverstone Clueless. But I suspect, given her place in the canon, that she's the real deal. Sorry, all I can do is speak out of ignorance--a task I seem to have mastered.At the same time, I would find it hard to reduce LOTR to a bunch of hirsute Men and furry-toed Hobbits running about with swords killing Orcs while wizards cast their spells. Whether or not you like Tolkien's manner of writing, his works deal with themes of redemption, temptation, sacrifice, and loss. The mere fact that Frodo failed at his quest and was forever scarred by that failure--when Tolkien could have just as easily made him into a spotless, conquering hero--speaks volumes about the author's literary chops. Sort of like the way Ray Bradbury tells wrenching human stories in Buck Rogers-type settings.Sorry to revert to Topic B . . . again. I'll try to shut up now. Really. I'll try.
One of the things that O'Donnell wrote in his book on Augustine may be appropo to this discussion. Namely that Augustine is responsible for the notion that one can find the answers to life in a book. We seem to keep reading hoping that one magic book will totally transform us. I can well understand objections by Catholics to O'Donnell's book on Augustine. O'Donnell basically destroys many myths about Augustine, especially the one's that have come down to the RCC as universal teaching. The book is quite critical of Augustine while at the same time acknowledging Augustine's unique character.
One final word on LOTR, Mark, on an issue that I don't think anyone has mentioned: Tolkien was on the whole somewhat skimpy in developing strong female characters in the book. Arwen, Galadriel, and Eowyn have moments of great importance in the plot (especially Eowyn in the pivotal battle scene), but for the most part women are relegated to the subtext of the book. (In the movies both Arwen and Eowyn were given slightly expanded roles.) Perhaps that is a reason why Jean and Barbara and some other women are not as enthusiastic about LOTR as many men are. Nevertheless, my novena for Jean will soon be entering its second day.
I admit, Frodo has an interior life.And Elizabeth is characteristically roaming, which would seem to defy the characterization that men are extensive / shallow / violent, women are intensive / thoughtful . She definitively falls for Darcy, though, when they crest the hill and she sees Pemberley, a home. Is there room in Tolkien's thinking for strong female characters? I have an inkiling: no.
I don't think you can judge Tolkien's women characters by modern standards. Tolkien was an Anglo-Saxon scholar, and his novel is a synthesis of Anglo-Saxon forms--hero/king sagas (Hrothgar/Aragorn), saints lives (Cuthbert/Frodo), and Celtic fairy lore (Ents, dwarves, orcs, wargs, and that guy who turns into a bear at night). These shifts in tone help make the novel an interesting experiment, and a very bad novel.Women in Anglo-Saxon literature are the historians and protectors of the culture. That looks passive to us, but it was an extremely important role in a very chaotic social time.In addition, the Chronicle is full of real women who stood up to power and won. (There's an enigmatic passage in the Chronicle about a queen who got an army up and defeated her husband at Colchester, I believe. What that was about is anyone's guess, but she was plenty ticked off about something and wasn't going to sit home with a lot of ladies and stew about it over her embroidery.)And in LOTR women are willing to pick up swords to protect and defend their people. Jane Austen's genius as a novelist is that she was able to raise gossip about the neighbors to an art form. Nobody's ever been able to duplicate it. Kathy's right on target about the fact that the romance in P&P doesn't get going until Lizzy gets a load of Pemberley. I don't think modern readers can quite get their heads around how imortant that would have been to Lizzy--a comfortable home, social status, and a ticket away from that dreadful family--so Andrew Davies, the screen writer, threw in the famous Colin Firth wet-shirt scene as an added attraction.OK, I'm done boring everyone for this weekend.
Correction: Jane Smiley's book is called 13 Ways to Look at the Novel--a non-fiction book about fiction. Anyone want the Schrum book?
I tried to read Annie Proulx's "The Shipping News" at least three times and each time gave up before I had reached the halfway point. I just never cared enough about Quoyle or the Newfoundland coast to continue reading the story.
I don't know if the perceived lack of fully characterized women (if that's a fair paraphrase) in Tolkien can be ascribed to his medieval/linguistic scholarship -- I suspect it may have something to do with his South African/colonial origins. Something similar has often been said about the women in John Buchan who also has a South African/colonial background, although at a rather different age.Since I've chimed in I thought I would say (in addition to noting that I really liked the only Joanna Trollope book I've read, though I prefer her namesake) that it's not very fair to deny that Tolkien created a whole world -- it's a little like saying that Virgil or Shakespeare didn't create a world, they only got it from Homer or Seneca or Marlowe. Try Housman's parody of a Greek tragedy if you want to see what Englishing the disiecta membra without real creative genius is like.Our Mutual Friend is the longest book I've read twice -- when I took a course in the 19th century novel in 1968 it was considered quite eccentric to choose that as the Dickens book, but I think attitudes have shifted significantly since then. Last time I read it (charging through it enthusiastically) I tried to follow it with Nicholas Nickleby and bogged down on page 40.
My wife watched LOR while I attended to keep her company. She watches all kinds of movies like that plus karate chop movies of all kinds. My daughter watched all the Halloween movies while I cannot watch one. How is that for destroying all the stereotypes?
Gene, I'd argue that it's a bit of a logical stretch to say that a) Buchan doesn't have fully realized women, b) Buchan grew up in colonial South Africa, c) Tolkien grew up in colonial South Africa, ERGO Tolkien's women aren't fully realized. I also think that your contention ignores the source material Tolkien drew from and in which he was immersed for decades, sources in which men and women had more or less predictable roles. Do you think Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli and the rest of the boys are any more "fully realized" than the women? I don't. They run around doing more stuff, but we don't see inside their heads any more than the women's. The only characters with any interior lives are the hobbits, because their quest is as much spiritual/mental as it is physical. LOTR mimics that period moment when English literature was moving away from the oral, heroic tradition and toward a new, literate Catholic/Christian sensibility.I don't deny that Tolkien was very inventive and made up an interesting landscape for Middle Earth. Only that he synthesized from what was already there. It's not made up out of whole cloth.And, sorry, despite the fact that I appreciate all this, I still find the novels a bloody bore. (Day Three of William's Novena, and I'm still not getting better.)
Jean:I think you're right about Tolkien's women. I wouldn't attribute their relative silence to his youth in colonial South Africa, either. What I find intriguing--and this may be a reflection of his source material--is the way the women seem to hover over the narrative throughout the book. For example, once the group passes through Lorien, Galadriel never quite leaves the picture. Sort of like the way Goldberry is always on Tom Bombadil's mind, even when he is rescuing the Hobbits from the barrow wights. And the story of Beren and Luthien casts its own shadow (again, a melancholy one) over Aragorn and Arwen's hoped-for union.One commentator, I forget who, likened this use of women to the role that the Virgin Mary had in Tolkien's Catholicism. He himself made a similar parallel in one of his letters.As for Aragorn and the rest of the "boys" not being all that realized, I'm not sure I agree. As you noted, this is a different kind of literature than Pride and Prejudice. Tolkien takes more time describing the flora and fauna of Ithilien, for instance, than he does Faramir's conflicts over the war he must fight. But those conflicts are there; they are real; and they are gripping. It is not only the Hobbits whose quest is as spiritual as it is physical. Denethor is tormented. Galadriel's path is bittersweet. Eowyn's is liberating. And Smeagol's is just plain tragic.As for Tolkien's inventiveness in creating Middle Earth with its various peoples and places, Gene's comment about Shakespeare, et al., is completely apt. In yet another letter, Tolkien spoke about the genesis of his entire Middle Earth mythhology, beginning with the "Elder Days" as told in The Silmarillion. Essentially, he came up with the place first, then decided he needed to people it. That gave rise to the various languages he developed. And once he had the peoples, living in their lands and speaking their languages, he needed something for them to do. His description may be a bit too coy to be completely believed, but it sounds as if the plot unfolded from these prior elements. That may help explain the story's appeal/lack of appeal when compared with other novels.Sorry to hear, by the way, that William's Novena has not yet had any salutary effects on you. Perhaps I should start fasting as well!
Mark, I read "The Silmarillion" just after Christopher Tolkien released it, and I truly liked it. It reminded me of a fragment, like the Mabinogeon, of something bigger that was lost.You are right; the men don't run around just acting blindly or not being conflicted. But I only said that their inner lives weren't any more clear than those of the women's. Your comment, "... women seem to hover over the narrative throughout the book," is also fascinating.Hovering women, often supernatural women, are harbingers of unfinished tasks and quests (as every man with a wife and an unmowed lawn knows).The witches hovered and Macbeth was made thane and king. The Norns hovered and a hero brought his quest to a close successfully or died. Morgan le Fay and her sisters hovered and Camelot fell.Without hovering women, nothing gets done. Civilization becomes static. Men start singing tuneless songs and wondering if maybe they should figure out why the water heater clunks, if if maybe they shouldn't go round up those pesky rings that are causing problems, but maybe there's another beer in the fridge, no sense in hurrying into anything.The hovering woman in literature is often a supernatural force and is more powerful than armies and armor. Wyrd oft nereth unfaegne eorl thonne his ellen deah! (Fate--or the Weird Sisters--often save an unfated/undoomed man when his courage holds), Beowulf says. But he's still doomed, isn't he? Unless you're James Thurber and you've got a unicorn in your garden.Really, I have to say this is the most entertaining discussion of LOTR I've ever had. Way better than with those college guys with scraggly beards blabbering on just to hear their heads roar back in the olden days. So I suppose now I'm glad I read it just to have participated. The novena has worked. Praise be!So don't quit eating. Or you're likely to find some woman hovering over you. :--)
"Hovering women, often supernatural women, are harbingers of unfinished tasks and quests (as every man with a wife and an unmowed lawn knows)."Mark, Jean, you sound eXACTly like Chapter 8 of Lumen Gentium.
Ah, the power of prayer, and Mark's literate LOTR analyses.If truth be told, Jean, I doubled up on the petition activity. It's entirely possible you may get the uncontrollable urge to take 8 companions on a year-long quest to Michigan's stand-in for Mordor, the U.P. I for one will be looking forward to "There and Back Again, Jean Raber's Tale." ;)
William, there are many Mordor-like places in Michigan--I grew up a few blocks from the Dow Chemical plant where the orcs manufactured napalm--but the U.P. is not one of them. It is beautiful, rugged, and the beer is Canadian. I plan to retire there. But will not be taking my copy of LOTR up there.Kathy, does it say in Lumen Gentium that men have to do yard work? Because, really, if you could see my yard, you'd realize hovering has not worked all that well, not even when I've got my girlfriends over here to talk loud about how nice the yard would look if only blah blah in front of a Certain Spouse, and I think I need some type of Papal encyclical to get some teeth into the hovering routine.Or maybe get St. Martha to help me hover. I think she could get a lot of things done doing that.
Kathy, yes LG 8 fits very well. Not surprising, either, since Tolkien took his Catholicism very seriously and sought to weave it in the texture of his writing. No simple allegory would do. Which is why there is no one-to-one correspondence between a character in LOTR and a biblical figure. So different aspects of Mary's persona show up in Arwen, Galadriel, and even Eowyn. Likewise, Jesus shows up in Frodo (the priest), Gandalf (the prophet), and Aragorn (the king). He is none of them, and all of them.Jean, I wonder whether hovering women is one of the consequences of the fall--a sort of felix culpa, if you will. Women would not need to hover if we men were better motivated. Or does it go much deeper than that, to the very root of the complementarity of the sexes?As for lit crit and Tolkien, you must know, or have guessed already, that these few paltry insights did not come to me at my first reading. Back then, when I was a sophomore in high school, it was more the "gee whiz" element of swords, sorcery, and quests that appealed to me. But something kept drawing me back, and I kept reading it. Now, well ensconced in my 40's, I read it differently, and as I said previously, I never fail to find something new in it. Maybe it's become a kind of Rorschach test for me.Tolkien famously said of his writing of LOTR, "The tale grew with the telling." I suppose the tale grows with the reading as well.I've never visited the Upper Peninsula, so I can't comment on its likeness to Mordor. The farthest north I've ever been was Lake Leelanau. A bit tony for my tastes (and budget), but still quite attractive. Ann Arbor has its charms as well, but that's about as far as my knowledge of Michigan goes.
Jean, I guess when you read Lumen Gentium as a whole, it does suggest that men have to do some of the most important yard work. But not all, ladies, so let's put on our gloves.As George Alford inimitably said:"All the world is God's own field,Fruit unto His praise to yield:Wheat and tares together sown,Unto joy or sorrow grown.First the blade, and then the ear,Then the full corn shall appear:Grant, O harvest Lord, that weWholesome grain and pure may be."We work by the sweat of our brow and hope there will be some fruition. Meanwhile, Mary, type and promise, Star of the Sea, hovers.
Mark says: Jean, I wonder whether hovering women is one of the consequences of the fall--a sort of felix culpa, if you will. Women would not need to hover if we men were better motivated. Or does it go much deeper than that, to the very root of the complementarity of the sexes?Jean says: Mark, I just don't think that deep. My only observation is that some hovering could be replaced with harmony by condo living where a yard man takes care of stuff. But that is a long-term hovering goal.
(I meant Henry Alford. To the tune of St. George's, Windsor, by George J. Elvey.)Condo living does not reap such rewards as the mess of string beans I just stir fried. I thought the plants had dried up in the drought; who knew that the harvest was just beginning?Did Sam garden Frodo? Nah...

subset: commoncrawl


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Just How Good Is the U.S. Soccer Team?
The U.S. has already booked its ticket to next year's World Cup in Brazil. England still needs a win Tuesday against Poland (Fox Sports 1, 3 p.m. ET) to clinch its spot.
So any American who wants to make the average English soccer fan's head explode only needs to brag about Team U. S. A's six consecutive World Cup qualifications, the 13th ranking in the latest FIFA table, four spots ahead of the inventors of the game, and the mostly smooth run to the top spot in its regional confederation.
Really, though, compared with the traditional soccer powers, how good is this U.S. team, which wraps up World Cup qualifying against Panama Tuesday night (beIN, 9:25 p.m. ET).
The U.S. competes mostly against small, poor, Central American and Caribbean island nations, and the question of its quality is similar to what vexes college sports aficionados each December and March when they have to decide what to do with those mid-major powerhouses with sexy records.
The Jurgen Klinsmann-led U.S. side could well be soccer's version of the 2012 Northern Illinois football squad, destined for the sort of 31-10 Orange Bowl thrashing the Mid-American Conference Huskies endured after a 12-1 run through the regular season. But could they be more like the 2009-10 Butler Bulldogs, 18-0 in the cream-puff Horizon Conference, 33-5 overall, a heave away from beating Duke in the national championship game?
Ian Darke, the veteran British sportscaster who calls U.S. games for ESPN, says plenty of Europeans believe qualifying in Concacaf is a walk in the park for the U.S. and Mexico, especially when a single group in Europe includes France and Spain, winners of two of the last four World Cups. But Darke says Europeans don't understand how hard it is to win games in the sweltering climates and poor fields in places like Panama, Honduras and Costa Rica. "Are the U.S. a top side among the elite in the world? No they are not," Darke says. "But this World Cup will be about whether the U.S. can look like they are significantly bridging the gap."
According to ELOratings.net, whose rankings of the 200-plus FIFA nations are considered among the planet's fairest, U.S. opponents during the final round of qualifying had a median rank of 41 and average rank of43. England's opponent's had a median rank of 52 and an average rank of 91 (thanks to No. 202 San Marino). French opponents, including top-ranked Spain, had a median ranking of 75, and an average of 55. ELO has England ranked sixth, France 14th and the U.S. 15th. Fifa, whose formula is more favorable to non-European teams, ranks the U.S. 13th, England 17th and France 25th.
"Some of the teams in Concacaf haven't reached the higher standards, but these one-off games in soccer can be very tough," said Gary Mabbutt, the former England international.
Using recent college basketball and football as a guide, a weak regular season schedule doesn't necessarily foretell a poor showing on the biggest stage. Witness Utah football and Butler basketball. So a blanket dismissal of the U.S. and Concacaf may not be called for. Warren Barton, another former England international and a commentator for Fox Sports, said Europe noticed a cultural change in the U.S. when Klinsmann forced star midfielder Landon Donovan to fight for his spot. "There's no divine right for the shirt anymore," Barton said. "That's a very European mentality."
Of course, real respect will only come if the U.S. can win a knockout stage game in Brazil and at least make it to the quarterfinals, though the luck of the World Cup draw in December, will likely determine that.
"Usually," Mabbutt said, "What group you get drawn into decides whether you go through."
—Matthew Futterman


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27 Dec 2012 3:07 AM #1
Scrolling to an item in the new List component
With the way the new List component works how can I scroll to a specific item. The offsetTop method doesn't seem to work (because the item isn't rendered yet) and calculating the offset by adding item heights before reaching the targeted item doesn't work either because you have to scroll first for the items to be rendered.
The idea I have right now is to get the ViewItems, look for the targeted item inside them and scroll to it if I find it, otherwise scroll to the end of the current view (rendering a new set of items) and repeat the process until I find the targeted item. This can be optimized by first scrolling to (itemIndex - 1)*defaultItemHeight before beginning the hunt. The reason this first scrolling is not enough on its own is because of grouping headers that have to be taken into account.
Is there a way to do this more "easily"?
29 Dec 2012 7:24 AM #2
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Use the scroller...
list.getScrollable().getScroller().scrollTo(x, y);Mitchell Simoens @LikelyMitch
Sencha Inc, Senior Software Engineer
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30 Dec 2012 3:13 PM #3
The problem is the y coordinate. How do I get the coordinate of an item when it hasn't been rendered yet (the new list component doesn't render an item until you actually scroll to it).
14 Jan 2013 2:05 PM #4
I am having the very same problem. This was easy to do before the infinite list, but as DrunkenBeard mentioned, it is much more difficult when there are list items that haven't been rendered.
14 Jan 2013 2:27 PM #5
I dug into this a little more. I don't have a full implementation yet, but here are some hints.
After the list's painted event, you can still get the viewItems from the list, but they won't have any offsets to use with the scroller. In the element property of a viewitem, there is a getOffsetsTo method that returns a good offset from the top of the list even if the list is grouped and the item isn't rendered yet.
This should be enough to run with to scroll to a specific item.
5 Feb 2013 1:44 PM #6
If you know the index of the item you want to scroll to, you can use something like this:
function scrollToSelectedItem(list, index) { //console.log("scrollToSelectedItem: index=" + index); var map = list.getItemMap(); var offsetTop = map.map[index]; var centeringOffset = 130; if (offsetTop > centeringOffset) offsetTop -= centeringOffset; //console.log("OffsetTop=" + offsetTop); var scroller = list.getScrollable().getScroller(); scroller.scrollTo(0, offsetTop, undefined); }
20 Jun 2016 4:53 AM #7
Its dont work for me I have error Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'getScroller' of undefined
24 Jun 2016 2:09 AM #8


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23 May 2012 9:09 AM #1
Answered: referencing child element of list item
Ok, I'm sick that I have to ask this but I can't waste anymore time on it. I have a simple list with an 'itemtap' listener. Within each list item I have a hidden div element that I want to show when the list item is clicked. Baby stuff. But I can't figure out how to reference the element within the list item....
The itemtap function is simply:
function(list, index, element, event) { .....do stuff here }

Tom Hanks

you can't see this

...and about a million other things. Sorry for such a dumb question, but I'm just sick of wasting time on this. Thanks so much!
Got it! Good grief!!!!
I'm not even going to ask how to determine if it's visible and then hide it again. Where's jQuery's toggle() when you need it???
23 May 2012 11:29 AM #2
Ok, so I managed to get a reference to the hidden element (class name is 'hiddenDiv') by using:
...within the itemtap function. I used console.log to verify that it was the correct dom element. But I still can't get it to show.
I've tried:
element.down('.hiddenDiv').setVisibilityMode({Visibility: 1});
...when I used getVisibilityMode() on the element, the setVisibilityMode() was working properly and returning anything I set, and yet the element still remains hidden. By the way, I initially hid the element with your basic display:none in my CSS file.
So I'm just baffled as to how I can get this element to show. Thankfully I've only wasted an entire afternoon on something that should be the most basic showing/hiding a DOM element imaginable. I'm just baffled.
23 May 2012 11:44 AM #3
Got it! Good grief!!!!
I'm not even going to ask how to determine if it's visible and then hide it again. Where's jQuery's toggle() when you need it???
17 Nov 2012 4:28 PM #4
I think that this is a bug. It appears crazy to me that the 'setVisible' or 'show' methods don't work here. I just spent the last 2 hours trying to figure out why my element wouldn't show. BTW, I also had set the class's display to none in the associated CSS file. So, Sencha Touch doesn't appear to be able to re-show elements if they were hidden initially via CSS. Thanks for posting this solution as you really saved me from going nuts.
Would be nice if a Sencha employee could comment on this.


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GENESEO, N.Y – SUNY Geneseo is celebrating Cultural Harmony Week Oct. 24 – Nov. 2 with events designed to address a wide variety of community and diversity issues, including race, religion, gender, ethnicity and non-Western culture. This year's theme, "Constructing & Reaffirming "I"dentity," will explore how individuals of diverse backgrounds are constructing their identity.
The college plans an entire week of programming both inside and outside the classroom to deepen students' understanding and awareness of important aspects of human behavior and social organization. Highlights for this year's program include:
Oct. 24 at 5 p.m. in South Hall 233 – Linda Steet, associate professor of education, will deliver the opening faculty lecture, "Diversity and Islam."
Oct. 25 at 4 p.m. at the Lockhart Gallery, 26 Main St. – Opening of art exhibit "Black: A Graphic Signifier" with artist Curlee Holton and student readings of Shakespeare's Othello.
Oct. 28 at 5:30 p.m. in Newton Hall Room 214 – Author Tim Wise will deliver the keynote address. He is the author of six books including his latest, "Dear White America: Letter to a New Minority." He was named one of "25 Visionaries Who Are Changing Your World" by Utne Reader.
Oct. 29 at 5:30 p.m. in Newton Hall Room 209 – Performance poet and live artist Dorothea Smartt, a prize-winning black British writer of Bajan descent, will be reading from her new book, "Ship Shape," which re-imagines the story of Samboo, an African slave lost to history, buried at Sunderland Point in Lancaster, England.
Oct. 29 at 7 p.m. in Newton Hall Room 209 – Film screening of "Miss Representation," a groundbreaking film exploring and challenging the double standard the media exhibits toward women, especially women in positions of power.
Oct. 30 at 7:30 p.m. and Oct. 31 at 10 a.m. in Wadsworth Auditorium – The critically acclaimed theater company Repertorio Español presents "En el tiempo de las mariposas" (In the Time of Butterflies), the true story of the Mirabal sisters, who served as symbols of defiant hope in a country shadowed by dictatorship and despair. Tickets for the production are available online (http://tinyurl.com/TicketsRepertorioAtGeneseo2013), at the college's Center for Languages and Cultures (Fraser Hall 202) and at the window of Wadsworth Auditorium one hour before the performance.
Nov. 1 at 8:30 p.m. in Sturges Auditorium – Geneseo alumna Qurrat Ann Kadwani performs "They Call Me Q!" The production, which won the Maui Fringe Festival's 2013 Best Play Award, portrays Kadwani in a bold and relentless one-woman show that interprets and deconstructs the identity of 13 very different women.
The entire schedule for Cultural Harmony Week is also available online. Activities during the week support the Division of Student and Campus Life's learning outcomes and are envisioned as an extension of the social sciences core requirement, which works to deepen students' understanding and awareness of important aspects of human behavior and social organization; to increase students' understanding of the human condition and human institutions; and to augment the non-Western traditions graduation requirement seeking to focus students' attention on ideas, experiences and concepts existing outside Western traditions.
Cultural Harmony Week is sponsored by the Center for Community-Office of Multicultural Programs, SA, ACE, CAS, Late Knight, Division of Student & Campus Life, Department of Languages and Literatures, Department of History, Black/Africana Studies, Women's Studies, Xerox Center for Multicultural Teacher Education, the Galleries and the Department of English.
Media Contact:
David Irwin
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(585) 245-5516


text:
Suppose we have 20 cards numbered 1 through 20 and we want to pick 5 of them at the same time
a.How large is our total sample space ?
b.What is the probability of numbers 1 and 2 are not in our sample?
c.What is the probability of at least one card number is 3 , 4 ?
for a I think C(20,5)
I have no idea for b and c


text:
Special to The Voice-Tribune
To honor the franchise's more than 30 years of baseball in the River City, the Louisville Bats are hosting a Redbirds reunion on Saturday, July 7 during its 6:05 p.m. game with the Toledo Mud Hens. Fans will be able to enjoy the team wearing throwback Redbirds jerseys and hats from 1982. Posters commemorating the event will be distributed at the gates.
Several Redbirds alumni will make the trip back to Louisville to join the festivities. Bill Lyons ('82-'88), the franchise's all-time leader in games played and runs scored, highlights the returning players. Lyons is also well known for playing all nine positions in his final game as a Redbird. Tracy Woodson ('92, '94, '95), current head baseball coach at Valparaiso University and Team MVP of the Redbirds during their 1995 championship campaign, will also be in attendance.
Some of the former Redbirds will be joining the party from their respective dugouts. Current Bats manager David Bell ('95-'97) and pitching coach Ted Power ('89) will be honored along with Mud Hens hitting coach Leon Durham ('89) and scout Gene Roof ('82-'85). Bell is in his first season as manager of the Bats and Power is in his seventh as pitching coach. Fans may recognize Durham from his role as "Leon Alexander" in the 1994 film Little Big League.
Since 1982, the Louisville Bats Baseball Club has been a mainstay on the Louisville sports scene, regularly drawing an attendance at or near the top in all of Minor League Baseball. They hosted the Triple-A All-Star Game in 1991 and 2008, becoming just the second franchise to host the game twice. The team won three American Association Championships between 1982 and 1997 and has won one International League Championship since joining the league in 1998.
Louisville's boys of summer, however, have not always been called the Bats. From 1999 to 2001 the team was known as the RiverBats and from 1982 to 1998, of course, they were known as the Redbirds. The initial change from Redbirds to RiverBats came to make sense of the team's switch in affiliation from the St. Louis Cardinals to the Milwaukee Brewers.
Since 2000, the franchise has been affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds and has played its home games at Louisville Slugger Field. The connection with the Reds has worked out well for both clubs with the shared fan base and just a 99-mile separation between facilities. Many of the Reds' current stars, including Joey Votto ('07), Jay Bruce ('07, '08) and Aroldis Chapman ('10), tore up the IL before doing the same to the NL with the Reds.
The Redbirds reunion night highlights a busy July where the Bats will play 18 home games. For one night on Saturday, July 7, fans once again can go back to relive the days when baseball first returned to Louisville and see their baseball team draped in Redbirds jerseys and caps while taking home a piece of history with their commemorative poster. You can call the Bats' ticket office at 212-BATS to purchase your tickets while they are still available.


text:
If you are a solo developer, or have a leading role in a software company, you might have to decide how much your software will cost one or another day... What is your experience with calculating how much your software costs for your customer? Why does this method it work for you?
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closed as primarily opinion-based by durron597, MichaelT, GlenH7, Snowman, ratchet freak Jul 17 '15 at 22:02
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise.If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
Another way to look at this is "what software gets ripped off the most?". The high-ticket software like Adobe Create Suite is often a target as the initial price is just so high - several thousand dollars for a massive package of which you may end up only using 10% of the capability of each component. Look at the effort that Microsoft has put into their 'Genuine Windows' initiatives - does anybody actually buy Windows or Office any more? The businesses that get audited have to, but many small businesses and huge numbers of home users seem happy to use an illegitimate (or illegal) copy.
My personal opinion is that if you want to make some money from your software, do not release the source code into the public domain/open source community. There clearly are cases where selling support for an open-sourced code can lead to profitability, but IMO opening up your source code should be done to get community input. Exposing your cool code to the web loses your competitive advantage if you want the software to become a source of income.
So the current best strategy for software that I've seen is to license it. Give a somewhat limited version of the software away for free so that the user can get familiar with it without having to sign up for an account or hand over credit card details, both of which are off-putting. Once they reach a point where they are using it seriously, you can offer the option of increasing storage/bandwidth/capacity/capability#. Many online services are using this model as are iPhone apps - download 'lite' version for free, pay to activate more features.
The actual price for which you license the software is a factor of:
# If paying unlocks some capability, don't put that capability in the free version as it will get cracked - regardless of how much market penetration you get. There are some people who just love to subvert software protection mechanisms and several of the products I've worked on over the years have had this fate - even the niche stuff. I'm no expert, but a combination of a uniquely-identifiable downloaded version that can be black-listed if it 'calls home' from more than X different IP addresses may be a starting point. If you detect someone has been handing around their copy of the software, you have a few options - talk to them (if they are registered) as there may be a good reason (they reformat their PC regularly, etc), close their account (with notification as to why) or bill them accordingly if you have their credit card details (but expect recourse from this action).
While I don't agree with everything Joel says, his "Camels and Rubber Duckies" article on this topic is a must-read, IMO.
The basic advice is "charge what people will be willing to pay", or:
Figure out your pricing objective first. Then look for pricing strategies to achieve that objective.
You need to work out how long you think it will take and how much you want to earn per hour and then times one by the other.
Next you need to add in any costs you will incur in writing the software.
Then you need to add in any contingency... i.e. if you are doing fixed price work, what are the chances of something cropping up that will take extra time.
Lastly, you need to make sure that your cost is printed on the same piece of paper that states exactly what you will deliver in exchange for the money and you need to take a deposit... you will prevent a lot of time-wasting by insisting on a deposit.
I actually wrote a couple of articles on the subject a few months back, but just stumbled over this question now.
The easy way out is to say it differs a lot depending on target audience, market, size of problem solved and so forth, which is all true - but I think you can divide software to 3 general categories:
Assuming you don't fall in the 3rd category, you need to figure out in what category are you. Nice-to-have software should generally be priced in the range of "why not?" (as Jeff calls it in his article), which means low enough that that a potential client doesn't mind opening his wallet, while must-have software have much more flexibility with the pricing.
What makes software a must-have? that's where all the different variables come in to play. The most important ones in my opinion are:
When I price software, those are the main considerations I take. You can factor in additional parameters, such as market (you can price higher when selling to the enterprise as opposed to the private sector, for example).
Also, never be afraid to experiment after you set the price. Give some time for data to accumulate and try to test different pricing to see how it affects sales.
Keep in mind that your price also will reflect the quality of your software in the eyes of potential buyers. There is a psychological effect that if product A is priced higher than product B, product A will be seen as higher quality than B even without any supporting information. This is true from canned beans to cars to houses.
Ultimately your business case for this software will define your price point (is this a one-off, extension of something existing, a loss-leader to gain new customers? etc.)
Don't charge - release it as Free/Open software.
Then provide way for people to donate whatever they like, based on how useful it is to them. (Unfortunately, I don't actually know how effective this is.)
If this is a core product for your company, you can still do the above, but also a commercial license and support contract, and maybe sponsored feature development too.


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What do you think s the most bugged version of the last few years? Im mean fresh out of the box, before any patches were made available.
What do you think s the most bugged version of the last few years? Im mean fresh out of the box, before any patches were made available.
I remember 2008 being a hassle, but 11 is just a disaster, and we got a new patch = new bugs.
yeah this one without a doubt for me
This one is terrible!
FM08, then FM09, then FM11 then FM10 I'd say.
FM09 (ME ground-up re-write was atrocious), followed closely by FM10 (Spain unplayable (literally - one could not play in Spain), crash dumps). Anybody who says otherwise either wasn't playing then, or has a selective/short memory. All versions were pretty good after patch 3...
2011 isn't great but I remember the horror days of CM4 and CM03/04 when they were quite simply unplayable IMO, I stuck to the legendary CM01/02 until the first FM.
The games you have listed including 2011 had/have thier problems but are far from unplayable.
What a joke of a poll.
Far too many people with selective memories or just haven't played earlier versions.
Hershie knows the score
2011 for sure, I think they tried to do too much and did a very poor job of testing it prior to release.
That said, I remember FM08 was pretty bad upon release. I actually went back to FM07 until the patch came out, it was that poor.
FM09 was just an all round horror show for me.
FM11 seems to be slightly worse than normal, to be quite honest, but nothing compared to the issues with FM09, in my opinion.
By far the best, was FM10. Beautiful out of the box and perfectly playable. SI surpassed all expectations with that release.
If SI could get it anywhere near FM10 each time, we'd all be delighted. That should be the aim!
FM09 was far worse than this, and FM08 wasn't very good either. The ME was abysmal out of the box and the entire forum was literally full of complaints. FM11 isn't as bad as either of those
Completely agree with Hershie, Cougar, Crouchy and Hazzydeepy. Major memory fatigue on these forums.
I can't think of a version before this that seemingly has more bugs "after" being patched!
The poll is also pointless and is only going to cause argument while achieveing nothing.
I think the real question should be why do SI never get it right until the 3rd patch? I have never known a game released with so many basic errors in it.
For the record I voted 11, a truly terrible game.
I think FM suffers due to the short development time inbetween releases, and trying to cram too many new features in. Personally I feel there are more than enough features in FM at present, and future versions should improve upon them and make them work as intended. AI squad management, transfers, conferences, interaction, team talks, these all need major overhauls. Improve and polish what is already there and from FM12 onwards we should see the game in a much better state out of the box
FM08 was the beginning of the decline in FM. I loved every FM/CM before that regardless of bugs, but FM08 was shocking. I seem to remember the ball always looking like it would fly over the bar then it went in the top corner! Truly crap.
The thing which is bugging me about recent releases is SI don't learn from their mistakes. Glaring errors still making it through year after year. You would think that after getting version 10.3 pretty good ME wise, that 11.0 would be 10.3 plus tiny improvements (albeit with at least 6 months to make sure the improvements work ok), but that doesn't seem to be the case. It's like we're getting something entirely new every year, something which has been developed from scratch and is totally shambolic until patch 3! Every year. THIS I don't understand.
I think FM suffers due to the short development time inbetween releases, and trying to cram too many new features in. Personally I feel there are more than enough features in FM at present, and future versions should improve upon them and make them work as intended. AI squad management, transfers, conferences, interaction, team talks, these all need major overhauls. Improve and polish what is already there and from FM12 onwards we should see the game in a much better state out of the box
Totally agree, nice to see some common sense here for a change.
Every time a new version comes out we get these polls and people always mention the most recent game, then they talk about SI having short-termism.
I would say considering FM10 was expected to sort out the problems that had taken place since FM08 then for me, at least, FM10 was the most bugged. It took until 10.3 for the major errors to be sorted in a game which Miles himself declared was "going to focus on ongoing issues". Clearly, at release date, it failed to do this.
FM11 has major errors but it has new features so it is expected to have mistakes. For me its not so much about that but how you can go from one okish/near pefect version to the next being so buggy. They use the same game database, or at least we are led to believe they do. So why the mistakes, especially simple mistakes like the 2 yellow cards = suspension in the Spanish league.. Do staff not talk to each other? Do they walk off and fail to leave notes for the next guys? Its a bizarre concept.
FM2011 has more bugs than other things... It's NOT possible to fix them all with patches or new future versions.
Time has come to create a NEW game, with the newest encoding technologies...
because you can NOT continue to PIMP this old-tech game
why are you coming up with fifa?! It's just like FM a ridiculously old-tech, pimped & fully-bugged game.
think the world terible is harsh mind its a very good came a think just has some really daft bugs in it like the amount of world class players that go in a mood and want to laeve and the morale dropping because they havnt scored for a couple games
People really have short memories, FM08 was beyond abysmal on launch.
09 of course. cant's believe 11 tops the list. *facepalm*
FM09 was probably a little bit buggier than this one. Not to mention the whole activation farce.
Remember the literally non-existant CB closing down in FM08? Now that has to be in the top five worst bugs in FM history.
Maybe we should have a different poll.... what was the last good FM on release?
FM11 is the least bugged out of the box of those four IMO.
FM09. Think that was the one where pre-patch it was virtually impossible for strikers to score, and I think it was AMCs which, regardless of how well they played, unless they contributed a goal/assist would rarely get a rating above about 6.2
FM 09 was poor, even after the final patch there's a lot of lingering problems, strikers struggle to score a realistic number of goals over longer periods, and (carried over to FM2010) 99% of headers, no matter how simple the chance or good the player at heading, end up over the bar even from 2 yards out. This version also started the phenomenon of hitting the woodwork an ungodly number of times, this also happens in 2010, and I'm hearing it's still an issue in 2011.
Of the recent releases I've bought, 2009 was by miles the worst, although FM2011 hasn't been released yet as far as I'm concerned. CM4 was a total unplayable shambles which crashed constantly, but 03/04 was actually quite good.
Edit - from my observations of the ongoing problems, and the fact patching patches is a new low, I reckon when everything is said and done FM 2011 will be a good challenger for worst release ever.
Last edited by Boltman; 18-12-2010 at 15:24.
not going to vote, but am going to cause controversy...
I liked FM09 out of the box, sure I had minor issues with it, but overall I was pretty pleased with it, and the patches just made it better.
I hated FM10 on release, so much so that it lasted about 5 seasons of my LLM game before being consigned to the shelf to gather dust and I returned to 09. I never made it to 10.3
I've not been impressed with FM11 at all! I fear that SI have added too much and introduced many bugs unintentionally that are truly intermittent. What one person suffers with, another doesn't BUT they seem to have problems that the first guy doesn't and then a third guy will have totally different issues. Nobody seems to be experiencing ALL of the bugs, or even a majority of them, and I think that it's this that is causing SI to have difficulties when trying to fix them.
I'm trying to not consign FM11 to the same fate as FM10, but it is a struggle...
This is how id rank the games since i started playing, from best to worst: FM07, CM03-04, FM06, FM10, FM05, FM11, FM08, FM09, CM4.
Ideally obviously we'd prefer to be able to say "what are you on about, there's never been any bugs in ANY of our games" but sadly we know that isn't the case. We always try and make it as playable as possible out of the box, but I do have to say, I've worked and tested on all of those FM's listed above (yes it's all my fault) and FM11 was considerably less buggy (certainly in terms of numbers and I'd say severity) than some of those shown, which would most certainly show people do have relatively short memories when it comes to these types of things.
Neil Brock can you look at this thread here: http://community.sigames.com/showthr...Tactics-goosed
This makes the game pretty much unplayable unless you just use the same tactic and never change it or tweak it. Please don't tell us we have to wait till February for this to be fixed, it's a shocking bug.
If any bug is worthy of a hotix it's this.
Last edited by dave byrd; 18-12-2010 at 17:03.
I noticed that each game and patch release since last year has at least 1 AMAZING HUGE BUG... which is I think a PLANNED action by SI
9 was unplayable- only ever FM game I have seriously complained about and resulted in missing a year since CM2. Yep you heard it I never had FM10 so cant comment on it. FM08 was bad as well. Personally I cant see me buying FM12 for totally the opposite reason to not buying 10.
FM11 is the best incarnations of the FM series since the name change
You know the sad thing is this is probably happening to everyone but they haven't noticed it.
Guys try it for yourselves, go to the tactics screen and change say the starting philosophy in your tactic to rigid, then switch to another tactic and that will also have been changed to rigid. Any changes you make get duplicted to all your other tactics!
Last edited by dave byrd; 18-12-2010 at 17:16.
I noticed this team instructions thing last night and it is annoying, however, and I only use classic so don't know if it works with the creator. Yes your Team Instrictions stay the same if you switch tactics whilst looking at the team instructions, however I don't thionk it changes you tactic. If you revert back to the team formation screen and reload your tactic it should show your proper instructions. So at the start of each match I just go to Formation and choose the tactic I want to play and in game if I want to switch again I only switch at the formation screen. Hope that makes sense. Haviing to delete current, current, current though is a tad barmy!!
My reasoning for voting for 11 over 8, 9 or 10 is simple, it's the only one I have stopped playing until the final patch is released, the others I could get on with, but 11 is just horrible at the moment.
4 patches before reaching january speaks for itself
Sorry I had to post that but Neil you made it sound like you were doing us a favour there.....Don't forget we are the guys buying the game and basically beta testing it for you to add patch's....so in your own words "be wary".
FM09 was.... well, even in March that game was a calamity and comfortably the worst FM overall even after the patches - I remember fuming at the authors of TT&F in that they tried to actually justify the match engine logically when it was plain crap - but even then it didn't have the general gameplay killing bugs that FM11 has, namely the transfer bug and the other craptastic errors that are still abound.
FM08 was hit and miss - before the first patch it was literally unplayable but recovered quickly. FM11 has been worse because even after two patches it's still woefully bugged, whilst FM08 was effectively "repaired" by December.
So FM11 > FM09 > FM08 > FM10 overall for me. If you're talking strictly "out of the box", FM08 > FM11 > FM09 > FM10.
The only saving grace for FM11 so far is that the Match Engine is showing massive promise for 11.3.
If the release date was on a 15 month cycle and it was released when completed, we'd be getting 12 months or so of a "proper" FM - without the frustration of a bugged product for months on end, damaging SI's reputation just to satisfy Segas bank balance.
Have to go with this one, but I'm not complaining as I was there for CM4... didn't that need about 6/7 patches (felt like it anyway)
Rose tinted glasses I think. If I recall correctly about 50% of people couldn't play FM09 out of the box because of problems with vertification and Steam... and followed it up with a game ending crash at random points. Besides... I don't think there's been ANY game released in the last 4-5 years which hasn't needed serious patching - yes, I'm looking at you F1 2010 ¬_¬
Its a bit hard for me to judge, as iirc, all of these have had a patch at least within a day or two of being released and therefore I won't have played it "straight out of the box". I've voted FM11 purely because its the only one I haven't bought after trying the demo (though FM08 is the only one I've sold after buying and gone back to the previous version).
I surprised someone like you says this Tubey.
Extending the development cycle will not in any way get rid of all the bugs - it will simply make the community wait three months longer before the same bugs/arguments occur.
Personally I've played the game for virtually 20 years and I've learned. I still buy on release to support SI but I don't expect to play straight away and don't normally start a career until patch 2 at the earliest. Sure I pay up front but I trust SI will provide a very playable game by patch 2/3 which will give me superb value for money overall.
I don't know if FM11 is the most bugged but the bugs in this version have stopped me from playing and are more annoying than in any other from the past few years. In 11.2.1 i simply cannot play due to the screwed up tactic situation:
*Any change i make to one of my tactics gets applied to all my tactics
*Set piece instructions keep resetting themselves
*Individual player instructions keep resetting.
How can i play when the fundamental basics such as the game following your tatical instructions do not even work?
hey Fabio, are you happy with the last patch dear fanboy ?
next time, before replying on my posts, just wait a couple of days, because you need more time than me to see the new HUGE bugs...
this latest patch has to be the worst.
I am offered a new contract that is below the minimum so i cant negotiate unless i ask for a pay rise, i am trying to sign new players who want a release clause that is less or the same that i am buying them for.
Utter garbage.
'09 was by far the most bugged out of box, or at least severley bugged imo. '08 wasn't much better though. When it comes to patches though, I am finding 11.2 to be one of the worst versions yet.
Yeah, if we can't have a sensible discussion without labelling each other fanboys then I'll just shut this thread. You can tell it's the school holidays right about now.
FM2010: I think you all forgot the "memory leak allocation" that made the game unplayable (literally)
I'm really hoping for a hotfix before Christmans as was really looking forward to getting into a save over the holidays.
In future though i will only pick up FM after the final patch.
I still voted for FM11 as i still find FM10 more enjoyable than, FM11.
I managed to figure out approximately when FM10 would crash, but to be safe i saved the game after every match.
Then it was just reloading it and keep on playing it.
In FM11 i find there are more small problems that adds up to a big lump. Where, in FM10, it was basically just one big problem that i learned to live with.
But the crashes i experienced in FM10 will probably be never forgotten
One bug like that has more weight than all those in FM11.
One thing is a distorted gameplay, another is the fact that you past more time while saving or rebooting your pc.
FM11 has a PA of 4.5 to 5 stars. However it's CA (due to the number of annoying bugs) is 2.5 to 3 stars depending on the 'patience' stat of the user.
And i certainly had more gaming time than saving and restarting the game.
As for having to reboot the pc because of it, i can't really comment on. But if i had that problem i would most likely agree.
Managed to stretch to the year 2060, or somewhere around there, on FM10 for the very first time. And i'll probably do something about the same with FM11 eventually.
Despite the crashes i found FM10 the best game since CM 01/02. But that, of course, is a personal experience and opinion
Probably. However, I think they'd limit the "game breakers" that have generally plagued the release versions of the last four FM's by extending the release date, locking the code 12 months into development, releasing a demo, gathering feedback from the demo for a month, fix the bugs, update the data, lock the code, release a second demo, feedback, update, lock, release the game.Originally Posted by Cougar2010
Basically, if SI are going to be using the community as Beta testers, do so via the medium of a demo rather than the backdoor method of milking a pre-Christmas cash cow release date.
It won't happen, of course, because quite rightly some people will support SI and buy the game on release no matter what. Fair enough, but the problem with this strategy is that an awful lot of people will cotton on to FM being an inferior product until the third patch, and as such they'll simply delay buying the game til then, and pick it up from the bargain bins for £10-15.
So what I'm saying is that whilst SI probably think they're making money releasing pre-Christmas, in the long run they're taking massive hits to their reputation as a games company and they'll lose money on future releases. I've bought every single FM off the shelf on or near the release date, yet I've finally been screwed around so much by FM11 that I certainly won't be buying FM12 til March 2012.
If I'm doing this, I'm pretty sure others will be too! The patch strategy needs reviewing urgently.
Agree. Actually FM09 was pure garbage all round.Originally Posted by Bongo-Bongo
I might be getting the versions mixed up, but was FM09 the one were the activation code was unreadable on the back of the manual, or was that FM08? Either way, that was a colossal screw up ^^
Last edited by Tubey84; 20-12-2010 at 11:12.
Some good points. As i've stated before i will NEVER buy FM again until after the third patch.
There should be a standard stock response prepared - "If you bought the game within three months of the release date, having previously bought FM08, FM09, FM10 or FM11, and didn't expect bugs, then you deserve every single bug you get."
I can understand the people who simply love SI going out and buying FM12 ASAP, as my trust in the series until this year was so complete that I fell into the category. But I think the sensible people who do this will expect the bugs and just get on with it.
all people can do in future in not buy the game at all or just like you say wait till patch 3 there's no point get wound up by it
Weird that - I basically agree with you!Originally Posted by Tubey (Above, in this thread)
The fact FM08 and FM09 were garbage out of the box isn't a bloody defence mate! That simply means the three patch strategy has been screwing people over for nigh on four years!
I've just gave a very reasoned and detailed post about why the three patch strategy is hurting SI. The fact there's a thread wondering which of the four titles that have ran exclusively on a three patch principle is the worst, not the best, speaks volumes.
Basically, SI are releasing a half-finished game deliberately, then relying on a three patch system following feedback on bugs from the community to complete it rather than complimenting it. (I best qualify this sentence by saying "in my opinion" but given it's happened every single release since FM08 and arguably earlier I think it's as close to a factual opinion as you can get).
I have to stress, I will never expect any PC title to be bug free upon release, but I think the aim should be to get as close to it as possible rather than rely on subsequent patching after the consumer has bought the knowingly bugged retail product, because SI take repeated hits to their reputation by allowing a shoddy product to be purchased by the consumer on release day.
Now, here's were improvements can be made to avoid a five month plus wait between retail release and a completed game:1. The demo is released to the public a week or two before release, for no practical reason other than as a taster for the addicts and so that consumers can check whether the product works on their system.
2. The game is released religiously on a 12 month cycle, or less, with a bare minimum release date of November so as to cash in on Christmas.
3. The developers notice major bugs within the locked demo code during the two weeks between demo release and retail release, and prepare a patch to fix the locked code when retail release lands. This is the first patch.
4. The game is released with only two weeks of developer testing on the final code.
5. The game is badly bug-strewn as the code hasn't been Beta-tested to any large-scale degree, an opportunity that could be addressed by an extended demo release. The second patch is released in December, which addresses the flood of feedback from the forum. However, there's no time to fully test the newly altered code, so once more the developers only have around two weeks to test the locked code for new errors.
6. The community notice the errors from the first patch are fixed, but the second patch has created a load of other bugs (like the "Poland Bug" in 11.2). Urgent hotfix aside, these are ignored and will be addressed in February/March, after the community "Beta test" the second patch for two months.
7. The influx of bug reports, combined with the two to three month extended testing period for the dev team between December and March, allow the game code to be fine tuned to eradicate final bugs and the third patch basically completes the game.
There's probably other options too, but those two alone would result in a more stable release game and more respect for SI (or, more importantly, fewer people "bargain binning" the title in March).A. Have a demo release six weeks in advance of retail instead of two, allowing feedback and dev testing time on a final code. Lock the code again two weeks before release, and fix it. This will mean that the first patch will be the quality of the second patch as we stand now.
B. Drastically extend the Beta tester program, or intelligently select people from the forums to test the game who seem committed to improving FM rather than doing it to simply get a quick early try of the new title.
I understand that for A to work the game would have to be on a 13 month release schedule rather than 12 to accomodate the extra month demo time, but it'd be worth it in the long run.
Probably is this one, but with so many new features it's bound to have some teething problems.
It may have a few issues but it's still a great game!


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Which commands are there that one can use to define new commands in (La)TeX?
There are:
\DeclareRobustCommand[*], and ...?
(And I've seen things like
The LaTeX "official" interface provides
All these commands define one or more commands (some only for internal usage) and provide tests for avoiding clobbering of existing commands. There's also
The kernel has many other command-defining macros:
Of these, only the first one is commonly used in LaTeX programming (it shouldn't be used indiscriminately as a replacement of
Some additional packages provide new functions:
are commonly found, but there are scores of other command-defining functions in the hundreds of packages around.
Another commonly used utility for defining commands is the primitive
provided by the
(look at the documentation for a description).
Eventually, all of these command-defining functions boil down to the primitive commands
but a description of these would require writing a chapter of a book; refer to the TeXbook or to TeX by Topic


text:
Ted Reader has confirmed that he is Tabasco Canada's newest Spokesperson on his facebook account:
I am happy to announce that I am officially one of Tabasco Canada's newest spokesperson. I have always been a fan of Tabasco and all of their products and it is pretty exciting to now be part of the family. Check out Tabasco Canada and enjoy the tastyness. Cheers
I think this is fantastic news!! Ted comes up with wicked good grilling recipes and I really believe that unlike a lot of those celebrity spokesperson endorsements this one actually makes a lot of sense.
Ted+Tabasco= all things good, tasty & fun.
Tabasco made a super smart move having Ted rep them ! Great news!! I can't wait to see the fun grilling and BBQ related recipes he is sure to create!
For more news about Ted make sure to check out


text:
PHILADELPHIA — The Pep Boys – Manny, Moe & Jack has appointed Chris Adams as SVP store operations.
Since 2010, Adams has served as COO of CarGroup Holdings LLC d/b/a webuyanycar.com, where he was responsible for launching the U.S. operations of the successful U.K.-based car-buying service. Adams began his career at Enterprise Rent-A-Car, where he progressed from a management trainee to becoming one of the executives selected to open up and lead Enterprise's U.K. operations. In between his tenures at Enterprise and CarGroup Holdings, he served as COO of The BabyPlus Company, a manufacturer and distributor of a prenatal education system, and Holland Partners, a developer and manager of multifamily communities.
Mike Odell, president and CEO, said, "Chris has a proven track record of delivering world-class customer service, having cut his teeth rising up through the ranks of Enterprise Rent-A-Car. He will be responsible for leading a cultural change in our stores from transactional- to relationship-based customer service. Chris is very well-rounded and uniquely qualified to lead our associates and set the tone for delivering great customer experiences across all Pep Boys locations."


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The geotoolkit.org web site has very little documentation. From this document I get the impression that it is a fork from geotools; is that right? If so, what were the motives/objectives of the fork?
It looks like there was a fork that was intended to be reintegrated, but this never happened.
Geotidy then became Geotoolkit. A full history is on the site. A list of all the differences is also available.
There is also an interesting mailing list discussion on GeoTookits application to become an OSGeo project (as well as GeoTools), fragmented communities, and various opinions on the divide.
We can't say which is the fork. martin desruisseaux made the referencing, metadata and coverage modules since 1996. geotools suffer a huge contribution dropdown in 2008 when the five developers leaved to make geotoolkit.
Both projects are equaly active. see http://www.ohloh.net/p/compare_chart?metric=Activity&project_1=GeotoolKit&project_0=GeoTools (green : geotoolkit, value is in number of commits)
Geotools just has the name. it's not even following the GeoAPI ogc spec anymore.
unlike geotools (which is nearly only working for geoserver), geotoolkit developers are working on several different type of gis project. - Constellation-SIG : map server - Mapface : JSF map library - MDWeb : metadata catalog - Puzzle-GIS : desktop application on netbeans platform


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What are your opinions on Audible®?
I've been thinking of trying out Audible for a while now. I don't have a lot of experience with audio books, generally preferring the old fashioned way, but I want to give some a try. Anybody here use the service? Is it easy and worthwhile? Is there any DRM I should be worried about?
3 Answers answer
You may want to try a ripping a free audio book or two from your library first to make sure book on tape is for you.
Yes Audible has DRM but software is available to fix ridiculousness.
I use Audible because I like to listen to audiobooks while doing housework or driving (especially long trips). I can't wholly recommend it, though, because of the DRM B.S. and their bizarre rules for the # of devices you can put the audiobook on. This is a royal PITA when your mp3 player dies on you, the alternate mp3 player is still charging, and you're in the middle of a book. Unfortunately, Audible's really the only game in town.
I love the Audible account I use. We get essentially 2 books/month with our subscription plan. They seem to have a decent selection to choose from. It's great if you are going to listen to it for at least a half hour at a shot. Perfect for long commutes because it gives you a reason to look forward to driving.