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What are some of the best Martial Arts Movies of all time?
I have a huge love of Martial Arts movies but was thinking of some of the best of the best ever made. The movies that had impact on you or the movie industry itself. I came up with my top 5(which changes from time to time). Was interested in what my fellow wooters would come up with since a lot of the deals are movie based.
Way of the Dragon (1979)
The Legend of Drunken Master (1994)
Fist of Legend (1994)
Legendary Weapons of China (1982)
Five Deadly Venoms (1978)
23 Answers answer
I just got done watching the 1st and 2nd IP Man movies on Netflix. They're great. The fight scenes are very well done. The story lines are even decent.
But my all-time favorite is Kung-Pow
"Taco Bell, Taco Bell, product placement with Taco Bell..."
Rumble in the Bronx
Are you kidding me. How could no one include Bruce Lee's- Enter the Dragon - Classic.
@mfladd: I like Way of the Dragon(Chuck Norris dies, only time I can remember him losing)more and wanted to keep my top five to one movie per actor if possible.
@capguncowboy: I loved both of those. I liked the first one better. The scene where he challenges everybody for rice and beats on one guy so hard his body keeps shaking from the blows is priceless.
Skip to 4:51 to see it. Quality of it is eh on youtube so rent it and enjoy it as it was meant to be seen.,
My favorites are and always will be:
(1992) Once upon a time in China: Part 2 (Jet Li, Donnie Yen, Rosamund Kwan)
(1983) Project A (Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung)
and of course, the Ip Man films are bar none the best to come out recently.
In addition to the other films mentioned, Hero was one of the most visually stunning films I have seen...no 3D required.
Another film I feel was underrated is Iron Monkey.
I second Enter The Dragon. Not mentioned, and a great film, is Kung Fu Hustle. Hilarious, and a great combination of traditional fights and Kung Fu meets The Matrix.
Kung Fu movies... so many. I LOVE cheesy kung fu, so almost anything from Rarescope is an auto-check for me. For serious movies though?
Legend of Drunken Master is pretty good.
I did enjoy Fearless, good fight scenes and I liked the story.
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was good the first time I watched it.
Ong-Bak or almost any movie by Tony Jaa, for the fights not the stories. Really, if I can get an alright story out of a Kung Fu movie, it just makes it better. I usually look for good technique, lack of wire-fu, and long fight sequences.
It was kinda brutal, but I really was stunned by Unleashed.
You must watch The Protector and Ong Bak
I Saw The Devil is an awesome Korean revenge film!
Not really the "best" Martial Arts movie, but when I thought of awesome fight scenes, this one came to mind immediately... and it's been years since I watched it. Definitely worth watching the original movie before Hollywood screws it all up.
Old Boy (part of the Vengeance Trilogy, the other movies being Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance and Lady Vengeance)
@sykotek: Old Boy is a sweet movie. Check out 'I Saw The Devil' if you haven't.
Pocket Ninjas FTW! This is such an underrated martial arts movie.
This movie will change your life. Think 3 Ninjas meets the sound effects guy from Bruce Lee's movies, they meet some homeless genius who does all the writing, add in the best freshman student from a mediocre film school for cinematography, and give a kid $10 to design a virtual reality game system and you have the AWESOMENESS that is Pocket Ninjas.
You will find yourself going around quoting lines from it, amazing lines like, "I feel something." and "well you're a fat republican" I almost wept while reliving those moments just now.
And with stars like Robert Z'dar and ...ummm ... Robert Z'Dar you know it is going to be a movie you will remember for the rest of your life (add dramatic tone)
Don't forget to watch this movie with friends and family, it makes the movie that much more awesome.
So don't bother reading anymore titles, pull up ebay or netflix and find Pocket Ninjas today.
What about Master Killer? anyone? Bueller?
Seriously, back in the day it was:
Master Killer 1 and 2
5 Deadly Venoms and the Return of the Venoms
and Kid with the Golden Arms.
All Time Classics!!
Greatest of all time is quite a statement. I will list a few recent movies I have seen and thought were pretty good.
As mentioned, the Ip Man movies are a showcase for some pretty awesome individual kung fu. The character is one of the coolest in movies.
The Good, The Bad and The Weird is a Korean spaghetti western that combines martial arts fighting with western shootouts. Funny movie at times and the three main characters really stand out with some good sequences.
Red Cliff: International Version (that means 5 hour, two disc bluray) is one of the best war movies I have ever seen. Great strategy, sweet individual combat scenes and amazing scenery.
There are plenty of older movies too but I'm sure others will bring them up. As much as I enjoyed a lot of them, they tend to blend together as time passes.
@curtisuxor: I'll second that - Hero and Iron Monkey are 2 of my favorites
I love the old shaw brothers movie: dirty ho(1979) five element ninjas (1982) Legendary weapons of china(1982) the 36th chamber of shaolin(1978) or any of it's sequels
"Karate Kid" enough said! :)
The Sword Stained with Royal Blood (1993)
Shogun Assassin (1980)
13 Assassins (2010)
Battle Royale (2000)(more asian thriller, but EPIC)
Sukiyaki Western Django (2007)
Kung Fu Hustle and Shaolin Soccer were both hilarious and well done. Stephen Chow is amazing
The Ong-Bak line with Tony Jaa is really good. That little man can jump high...
@eeekdageek: Please tell me you're referring to the originals...
Don't forget Sidekicks!
Thanks for all the input. I've seen a lot of them but some of those are new and I'll look them up. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who loves these movies.


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6 Supposedly Ancient Traditions (That Totally Aren't)
#3. Pretty Much All of Thanksgiving
The Tradition:
Pumpkin pie, giant helpings of turkey, stuffing, mashed potatoes and sweet, artery-plugging gravy. Thanksgiving combines gluttony with drunkenness and sports hooliganism and you don't have to feel guilty about any of it because it's even older than America. The first Thanksgiving took place in 1621 at the Plymouth colony in what is now Massachusetts. The starving colonists shared a meal with the natives and formed a friendship that would last until syphilis and exposure killed them all.
How Old It Actually Is:
Thanksgiving as we celebrate it today was finalized on 1941, coincidentally only one year after America's favorite turkey supplier first trademarked the name Butterball.
America loves it some turkey.
Who Made It Up?
It's true that a meal took place in 1621, but like most meals, it was pretty much a one-off thing. There were a few local celebrations held on varying dates, but people were generally too damn poor or busy running revolutions to bother with another holiday. Thomas Jefferson even called them "a monarchical institution."
Way to shit on everyone's good time, TJ.
All of the traditional foods and pageantry we associate with Thanksgiving are the invention of one pushy broad named Sarah Hale. She finally nagged Abe Lincoln into creating a new holiday in 1863.
The food at the original Thanksgiving was a motley assortment of fowl (possibly not even turkey), cod, corn and venison. Mrs. Hale, editor of Godey's Lady's Book (the Cracked Magazine of its day) realized that history would need to be jazzed up a bit if Thanksgiving was to have a future. She put together a massive recipe book that included many treats we still enjoy today, as well as batshit crazy heart-murdering foods like "ham soaked in cider for three weeks, stuffed with sweet potatoes and baked in maple syrup."
Mrs. Hale was convinced that, if she could just get enough families to sit down for Thanksgiving dinner, she could avert the Civil War. Obviously, she failed, but President Lincoln thought the idea had enough merit that he tried it anyway.
Some things are beyond even the power of cider-drenched ham.
For the first half of the 20th century, Thanksgiving was celebrated mainly by the rich and wannabe rich, since no one else could afford to waste the money. In 1939, FDR decided to change the date in order to give retailers more time to get ready for Christmas. For two years, people celebrated Thanksgiving on different days depending on their political orientation. It wasn't until 1941 that Congress set the date we still use today.
#2. Scottish Hipsters "Invent" the Kilt and Clan Tartans
The Tradition:
When you think of Scotland, chances are you think of hilariously incomprehensible alcoholics, Nessie and Groundskeeper Willy, and you picture them all wearing kilts. The Internet is absolutely littered with guides to Scottish clans, all of which include information on the clan's inevitably ancient and storied tartan: the specific pattern of colors on their man-dress. But you didn't need the Internet to be invented to teach you about the ancient roots of the kilt. Braveheart clearly shows William Wallace and an entire army of Scots fighting for their right to wear skirts back in the 1300s.
Here we see the venerable, ancient tartan of Clan Digicam.
How Old It Actually Is:
The kilt was invented in 1725, otherwise known as 400 years after William Wallace died.
Which dates back about as far as the first orthodontic braces.
Who Made It Up?
Prior to 1725, but well after the invention of pants, Scottish highlanders were wearing a robe-like proto-kilt called a plaid. So to be fair, the Scots were covering their unmentionables with ridiculous plaid clothing long before the kilt. An English iron-master named Thomas Rawlinson noticed that robes, while great for receiving commandments from God on a mountaintop, were somewhat "cumbrous, and unwieldy" for the Scots he employed to work over an iron furnace all day. Knowing that Scots' would not tolerate cloth between their scrotum and the ground, he invented a skirted plaid, and the kilt was born.
"Hi, I'm Mel Gibson. My hobbies include anti-semitism and taking great, steaming green shits on history."
Well at least the patterns on their "plaids" have always had a unique tie to ones ancestral identity, right? Actually, that apparently didn't happen for another hundred years, and this time instead of saving Scottish balls from being melted, it was capitalism, plain and simple.
Once the kilt had been invented, outlawed and then reinvented as a sort of hipster retro look, a cadre of textile manufacturers sprouted up to cater to the needs of the Highland regiments. One firm named William Wilson and Son of Bannockburn noticed that many wealthy, fashionable young Scotsmen had taken to wearing kilts. Some had even formed clubs around the trendy garment. There's even an ad from the 1700s claiming a 'great choice of tartans, the newest patterns,' which either means the Scottish switched families based on the hottest new fashion trends, or the Tartan thing is bullshit.
Mr. Wilson and Son may go down in history as the first designers to exploit gullible hipsters for money. They allied with the Highland Society of London and put together a key pattern book of all the clan tartans in 1819. The society matched clans to patterns and passed the whole sham off as an attempt to reconnect the people of Scotland with their ancient history.
#1. With Apologies to Our Pagan Friends
The Tradition:
Wicca, Druidism and other neo-pagan faiths offer a great many things to their roughly one million adherents. Spiritual fulfillment, friendly communities of like-minded believers and some of the best drug fueled sex parties you'll find this side of Lichtenstein. But it's all good, people have been wearing immense hooded robes, and sacrificing goats around bubbling cauldrons since years before we had electricity, right?
Most practitioners will acknowledge that Wicca as a recognizable faith is about 60 years-old. The neo-Druidic faiths popped up around the mid-1700s. In both cases, the leaders of either movement claimed to be bringing back some ancient religions.
10 to one odds these guys know where to find some kick ass weed.
How Old They Actually Are:
A few years younger than the con men who popularized them. Most of modern codified Wiccan thought comes back to three people who just sort of made it all up in the late 19th and early 20th century. "Old" Welsh and Druidic traditions don't fare much better; they have their genesis in 1792.
Who Made It Up?
Trust us when we say that the average author will write literally anything for sex, drugs, money or all of the above.
Charles Leland, Margaret Murray and Gerald Gardner all published books that, they claimed, held the ancient secrets of witchcraft. Leland pretended to have learned the doctrines of Old Italian witchcraft from a sorceress named Maddalena. Margaret Murray is the woman who coined the term "burning times," while Gerald Gardner asserted that Wicca began in pre-history and went "underground" throughout most of recorded history.
Gardner was probably the chief founder. Some people even call him the father of Wicca, as he founded the tradition from which most current blends of Wicca descend. Also, he looked like this:
Gardner claimed to have gathered traditions and beliefs from surviving covens that had "gone to ground" centuries or millennia ago. Of course, there's absolutely no way to verify any of Gardner's claims. We do know that he plagiarized quite a bit from Aleister Crowley. Also hurting his case is the approximately zero archeological, written or any other sort of other record of any of the practices he "brought back." Since "underground" is archeologists favorite place to look, that doesn't bode well.
The foundations of neo-Druidic and "ancient" Welsh cultural traditions go back a little further. In 1792 a hallucination-prone laudanum addict named Iolo Morgannwg (originally Edward Williams) started to hold Druidic (Druish?) ceremonies in London. He wrote up lists of rituals and practices and set up gorseddau, or Druish sects, across Wales.
Druish high priestess.
Long after his death, all of Morgannwg's writings were revealed to be outright forgeries or total rewrites of older works. To Iolo's credit, he only used his newfound religion to make a ton of money selling books and (presumably) to sleep with girls in the 18th century counter-culture. We suppose that makes him kind of a dick, but deep down, that's why we write every article we've ever posted.
18th Century Girls: Don't knock 'em until you've tried one.
Do you have something funny to say about a random topic? You could be on the front page of Cracked.com tomorrow. Go here and find out how to create a Topic Page.
For more bullshit that we all believe, check out 6 Bullshit Facts About Psychology That Everyone Believes and 6 Ridiculous History Myths (You Probably Think Are True).
And stop by our Top Picks (Updated Today! Shit!) to discover how old LOLcats really are.
And don't forget to follow us on Facebook and Twitter to get dick jokes sent straight to your news feed.

subset: commoncrawl


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June 30, 2011
Electronic engineering technology student completes co-op at the MBTA
Madison King, Electronic Engineering Technology '12
Co-op Employer: Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA)
Position: Engineering Intern
For weary commuters stuck in broken subway cars, Madison King, BEET '12, is a savior.
Since starting her co-op in January with the MBTA, King has been responsible for testing, monitoring, and implementing solutions for the entire fleet of Blue Line subway cars. One of her biggest projects was working on the auxiliary power supply, a piece of hardware on the bottom of each car which keeps it running. It is a part which can sometimes overheat—especially in the summer—and cause a car to break down. King studied the problems and worked to redesign the thermal system to make incidents less likely to happen.
As she walks around the MBTA blue line car house on the last day of her co-op, she points out projects she worked on—electrical systems on top of the trains and mechanical features on the braking systems. Everyone she passes smiles, says 'Hi,' and explains how sad they are to see her go. Her boss, Louis Tobio, an electrical engineering graduate from the class of 1967, explains that King was so great to work with not only because she was dedicated and organized, but because she actually challenged the way they were doing things and brought about real change. "I've always been taught that when you do something, you do it right the first time," says King.Now when there is a problem with her train, King is more patient. "At first I was just a regular passenger and when a train broke down I got annoyed. Now I see that it isn't just an easy fix—you have to look into what's going on." And that is exactly what King will be doing this fall when she goes back to the MBTA for a second co-op.
Media Contact
- Dennis Nealon


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I have this code in Python
inputted = input("Enter in something: ")
print("Input is {0}, including the return".format(inputted))
that outputs
Enter in something: something
Input is something
, including the return
I am not sure what is happening; if I use variables that don't depend on user input, I do not get the newline after formatting with the variable. I suspect Python might be taking in the newline as input when I hit return.
How can I make it so that the input does not include any newlines so that I may compare it to other strings/characters? (e.g.
something == 'a')


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ITS Services Status / Blog Service Weekly Maintenance
University Blog Service
Wednesday, December 11, 2013 5:00 PM - 10:00 PM
Scheduled maintenance may occur weekly on Wednesdays between 5 p.m. and 10 p.m. To the maximum extent possible, installation of service, application, and security updates will be performed during scheduled maintenance.
For further information, contact Larry Archer.
Download an ICS file for this event
Information last updated: 4:58 PM, September 9, 2013


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Introduction to the new WPA user interface
- Memphis
- Speakers: Michael Milirud
- 21,582 views
- 4 comments
Loading user information from Channel 9
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Loading user information from MSDN
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Loading Visual Studio Achievements
Something went wrong getting the Visual Studio Achievements
Right click "Save as…"Slides (view online)
Oops, something didn't work.
like to see it first!!
Where is the video?
@Shayon:I don't know but I think that those are simple placeholder for the videos that are to come.
@Shayon: for video you can download "High Quality WMV"
WMV (Windows Media Video)
Muhammad Shuja Qureshi
Comments have been closed since this content was published more than 30 days ago, but if you'd like to continue the conversation, please create a new thread in our Forums, or Contact Us and let us know.


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December's Copenhagen Climate Conference was a critical and controversial moment in our struggle to contain man-made global warming. The conference is over, ending in a non-binding international agreement and leaving many key issues unresolved. To learn more about what happened in Copenhagen, check out our Copenhagen blog (on this group page), featuring posts written by our on-the-ground team of bloggers. Bill Becker is the Executive Director of the U.S. Presidential Climate Action Project, Saleem Ali is a professor of Environmental Studies at the University of Vermont, and Yuill Herbert is a member of Canada's Nova Scotian delegation. All three blogged for Solutions from the Copenhagen Climate Conference, adding their unique perspectives to the discussion. Please join Solutions as we continue to explore Copenhagen's role in shaping our world.
An invitation to visit Solar Utopia, another future is possible! Website
Go to our website www.solarUtopia.org which features our peer-reviewed report "A Solar Transition is Possible" with important updates, including an estimate of how much conventional petroleum is needed to bring about a full solar transition in just a few decades while supplying all of humanity with the rough minimum 3.5 kilowatt/person, the necessary condition for a state of the science life expectancy and quality of life. Also test out our two calculators, one relating to our model of solar transition, the other the Energy Calculator that will connect power and energy units.
Best wishes,
Including All Voices in the Solution
I was very lucky to serve as the Climate Correspondent for Sea Change Radio (http://www.cchange.net/tag/climate-change/) at COP15. I witnessed firsthand the initial confidence felt by everyone attending the meeting. We were sure that the voices of the global community had been heard, and that our leaders would act to ensure the safety of island and desert nations as they considered what to include in a global treaty. The frustration was palpable as we watched the U.S.
Copenhagen (COP15)
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14 Jun 2012 4:17 AM #1
Audio Support
I am a newbie here..I want to know whether Sencha supports HTML5 features such as Canvas and audio..
Thanks in advance!
15 Jun 2012 8:57 AM #2
No, not directly in Animator at this point. You could add the HTML and JS to a project inside Animator to make it work on preview in browser or on export.
15 Jun 2012 9:00 AM #3
Also, I forgot to mention that there are a few post on the forum relating to including a sound library in Animator.
Among others:
25 Jul 2013 8:52 PM #4
Any updates on this topic?
I don't see anything in the Project properties panel called "Head HTML".
Has something changed?
26 Jul 2013 2:11 AM #5
Hi Backspin,
In Animator 1.5 the properties were reorganised a little bit for consistency reasons - you can find head html under Export -> Other -> Head HTML.


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Babysitting and Nanny Agency Services
What type of babysitter or nanny are you looking for?
Permanent Childcare
For families looking for permanent (1 year +) part-time babysitting or full-time nanny services, for weekdays, weekends, full days, mornings, afternoons, or evenings.
Temporary Childcare
For families looking for babysitters and nannies for occasional babysitting requests, date nights, travel needs, backup care, school breaks, parties and holidays.
Additional Services
For families looking for academic or standardized test prep tutoring for pre-K-8th grade; private lessons in everything from athletics to the arts to music and foreign languages; birthday party or event assistance; or personal assistants / general household help.


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Weekly Top Stories Nov 4 – 10
1. 650,000 Americans Joined Credit Unions Last Month — More Than In All Of 2010 Combined
One of the tactics the 99 Percenters are using to take back the country from the 1 percent is to move their money from big banks to credit unions, community banks, and other smaller financial unions that aren't gambling with our nation's future.
After a tweet by @ChrislHayes, Host of Up on MSNBC, that was RT'd over 100+ times, it's no surprise that this Occupy story hit the top of our weekly chart.
2. Google+ Pages: connect with all the things you care about
So far Google+ has focused on connecting people with other people. But we want to make sure you can build relationships with all the things you care about—from local businesses to global brands—so today we're rolling out Google+ Pages worldwide.
3. A Brief Rant On The Future Of Interaction Design
As it happens, designing Future Interfaces For The Future used to be my line of work. I had the opportunity to design with real working prototypes, not green screens and After Effects, so there certainly are some interactions in the video which I'm a little skeptical of, given that I've actually tried them and the animators presumably haven't. But that's not my problem with the video… read more
4. Murmuration [Video]
5. Google+ Launches Branded Pages
6. Andy Rooney dead at 92
(CBS News) Andy Rooney, the "60 Minutes" commentator known to generations for his wry, humorous and contentious television essays – a unique genre he is credited with inventing – died Friday night in a hospital in New York City of complications following minor surgery. He was 92, and had homes in New York City, Rensselaerville, N.Y. and Rowayton, Conn.


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Our Mission Collection, like all of our furniture, is built using only the finest, sustainably Harvested North American hardwood. Like all true Mission Furniture, our pieces are built using the finest craftsmanship right here in the USA. We are so confident in the construction of our furniture that we offer a 100% Quality Guarantee on all pieces. If you chose our Mission Furniture, you won't be disappointed.


text:
I trying to add a Fantastical event with AppleScript. Aparently the Fantastical Suite is quite simple as there is only one verb.
parse sentence v : parse sentence
parse sentence text : sentence to parse
[notes text] : Notes to add to the event or reminder
[add immediately boolean] : If true the sentence is parsed and immediately added to the calendar.
I've managed to parse the sentence but I unable to set the
notes and
add immediately parameters. Can anyone help?


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Fixing A 1966 Chevrolet C10 - Patina ControlWritten by on May 24, 2011 Fixing a Fade That's Gone Too Far
Loyal Custom Classic Trucks readers might recollect the subject vehicle of this story as the original condition '66 Chevy C10 that first appeared in CCT's pages nearly five years ago.
Back then, the truck was right at the point where it's factory two-tone blue and white paint had worn-through and oxidized to what I thought appeared to be the perfect patina. Unfortunately, when I bought the '66 it had to leave its arid SoCal high-desert home, and be relocated about four miles from the coast where almost every morning leaves a salty-mist that coats the entire truck with heavy dew. The transformation from randomly thinning paint to severe rust happened so fast it was almost like a young body shriveling up into a corpse within seconds like in a science fiction movie. If things were allowed to continue at this pace it wouldn't be long before the driprails were lost and the roof was next, not to mention that the cab corners and floor were doomed.
Traditionally when it comes to condition, classic truck restorers like to wind the clock all the way back to like brand-new. To give an old truck 50 years of its life back requires a lot of time and effort. Since I don't think I'm going to be around 50 years from now to enjoy the '66, I decided to just do enough to make sure the truck will survive while I'm in charge of it. Instead of spending months, maybe years for a total restore, I spent a weekend adding what I believe will be at least another 10 years of life to the old girl. After the driprails and rusting paint were handled, the next step was to eliminate another common source of water entering the cab. Rotting, cracked and dry window rubber almost without exception is the first place where major rust problems begin. That said, we're going to tear into the project by cleaning and prepping the driprail area before a quick coat of paint is applied to the entire roof followed by a new windshield and back glass to save our cab from Mother Nature's wrath. CCT
More Photos From This Article View Slideshow
Do you think rainwater could leak through this big hole? Major gaps in the windshield rubber with cracking around the corners, is typical damage caused by 45 years of use.Another place to look for possible rust damage. Here the caulking used in the driprails has dried up, and fallen out. The rust dots if not attended to will eventually grow into rust pinholes.A Craftsman glass tool works great to dig out the brittle windshield rubber, and years of accumulated mud and gunk.To remove the windshield it was only necessary to breakaway the bottom lip of the windshield rubber.The next step was to climb inside the cab, and gently hand tap the lower portion of the windshield, and push it outward at the bottom to clear the cab's built-in visor.With the windshield removed an ordinary teaspoon borrowed from the kitchen (the little woman is going to kill me when she reads this) works incredibly well to scrape the accumulated crud out of the window channel.As the finishing touch to clean the window channels, and prepare the cab for paint I found Eastwood's "PRE" to work great… In the old days it would have been Dupont 3812.Here's a view of the window channel after it has been fully prepped. Notice the rust under the visor this will be lightly sanded before squirting it with Rustoleum.
A ¼-inch cold chisel fits snug into the and works well to knock the old caulking out of the channel. An 1/8-inch cold chisel works great for getting at specific cling-ons.Look close and you'll notice a tiny pinhole has begun to form. Ignore something like this long enough and you'll be needing a new roof.The only thing nastier looking might be a Hanoi sewer trench. Notice when the driprail is bent the caulking doesn't conform, and rust has formed everywhere.A pair of "duckbill" pliers makes easy work out of straightening bent driprails. Squeeze the pliers in place, and slide along the channel to straighten it out like new.Mothers California Gold car wash is safe to use with bare hands and worked great to dissolve dirt and crud stuck to the old paint after a quick cleanout with 40-grit sandpaper.Before pumping new caulking into the driprails, I spray painted the channels with flat white Rust-Oleum.I'm not telling you guys to do this, but I ignored Rust-Oleum's instructions to thin for spraying up to 15 percent, and thinned the paint with as much acetone as needed to make the Rust-Oleum spray properly. This stuff sells for under $9.00 at Home Depot.I sprayed the '66 in my driveway on the day the nuclear fallout from Japan was scheduled to arrive in California. I don't think I got any overspray on the neighbor's cars it must have been "nuke dust" that landed on them.
Using a basic bastard file worked well to flatten out the newly formed lip we made for the big-window conversion covered in last month's issue.Any sort of table works best to lay the glass out. Here, the green tinted window glass from Brothers is being fitted with a new Brothers window seal.Steve Bentley used a roll of heavy-gauge wire as the pull string in order to install the back glass.The women folk helped to hold the window up to the opening while Steve pulled the wire to install the glass.In lieu of a special glass tool Steve carefully worked the expander strip in with small screwdrivers—it was painfully slow that way.
The Custom Cab moldings from Brothers went on easily by drilling three holes at the front, and one at the rear of the molding.


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When you let one rip but that last piece of corn slips out as well. Then suddenly you don't feel so grumpy anymore.
Gone with the wind, looks like my weekend is looking up after all!
by the kid can drive August 05, 2010
Trending Now
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Fantabulous book by Margaret Mitchell. 1000 + pages of pure yummy goodness. Tells the story of Scarlett O'Hara as her life is turned upside-down by the civil war. Oh and there's Rhett Butler...
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. -said by Rhett Butler in Gone With the Wind
by 3333333333333333333333 August 19, 2007
The act of farting in public and walking away from it.
Tom: *farts*
Jane: Tom, that is so gross! Where are you going?
Tom: I'm Gone with the Wind. *leaves*
Jane: Tom, that is so gross! Where are you going?
Tom: I'm Gone with the Wind. *leaves*
by D-Sane May 21, 2008
The act of smoking ganja and getting high. named after movie because of watching it high in 8th grade at school.
person a: let's smoke and be gone with the wind.
person b: sounds good too me B.
person b: sounds good too me B.
by GuyontheCouch October 31, 2009


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David Broderick, attorney for Lucas Goodrum, maintains his client's innocence in spite of another inmate's allegations that Goodrum confessed while in jail to the rape and murder of Katie Autry.
WBKO first reported Monday that another inmate came forward to investigators in March, alleging that Goodrum confessed to the crime while in the medical ward of the Warren County Regional Jail in late Dec. 2003 or early Jan. 2004.
A source close to the case says the inmate's own case had already been resolved in the court system before he was persuaded to come forward with the information, but Broderick says he doubts the inmate's credibility.
"I have to question their motive. They were out on jail on January 5, they didn't make the statement until March 30, and I didn't get the statement until April 16. Why would someone wait three months with that type of evidence if they were a credible witness? That's my reaction to it and look forward to having that person on the stand," Broderick said.
Goodrum and co-defendant Stephen Soules are charged with raping WKU freshman Katie Autry and then setting her on fire in her Hugh Poland Hall dorm room on May 3, 2003. Soules pleaded guilty in March and was granted life in prison without parole instead of the death penalty, in exchange for his testimony at Goodrum's trial in August.


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Residual Resistivity
I saw that the graph of resistivity to temperature of alloys like nichrome is like so
Meaning that even at 0 K it has some resistivity just like copper :
I read some where "It is the residual resistivity due to defect scattering" Is this related to the defects that i studied in solid state chemistry about lattice defects.Can some body elaborate?
- An alloy is a mixture of metals and a temperature coefficient of resistivity comparable to metals then why is its graph more linear than metals.
- Is this because of the lattice structure of an alloy?


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Speaking with Christian Broadcasting Network correspondent Paul Strand, Reverend Jesten Peters of the Florida-based Keys of Authority Ministries all but took credit for the Tampa-avoiding track of Tropical Storm Isaac, telling the reporter it was her congregation's prayers that pushed the storm away.
"We have had lots and lots of people praying around the clock that it would move," Peters told Strand. "And after you watch from the very beginning where they were saying it was coming and now where they say it is going, then it has really moved out of the way for us and we appreciate God doing that and moving it for us."
But what about the fact that Isaac is now expected to strengthen into a hurricane and make landfall in Louisiana on the seventh anniversary of Katrina? Oh, that. Something something gay marriage.


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Take This Chalice—Please
The results of a recent survey by the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate indicate that more than half the priests in the United States dislike the new Missal translation. A very large majority finds parts of it "awkward and distracting." Many believe it urgently needs revision. Fr. Tony Cutcher, president of the Federation of Priests' Councils, says it's time to move forward with "constructive criticism" and changes. Atlanta Archbishop Wilton Gregory said much the same thing recently at a conference in Florida.
OK, I'm ready. Can we change "chalice" back to "cup" now?
The new translation retired the word "cup," and replaced it with "chalice." "Chalice" now occurs three times in the heart of the Mass, where Jesus' actions at the Last Supper are described. In Eucharistic Prayer I, the Old Roman Canon, the current translation refers to the cup as "this precious chalice."
When the word "chalice" first appeared, some people liked it. "Chalice" seemed special and more reverent to them than the simpler and more common word "cup." Others disliked it because it brought to mind an ornate, bejeweled vessel, fine for princes but foreign to Jesus. What sort of drinking vessel would a Galilean rabbi use?
Supporters of "chalice" stood firm. They said the Latin calix simply means "chalice"—it's a literal translation; get over it. Sadly, the notion of a "false friend," an English word that sounds like the Latin word but isn't quite the same, seems not to have occurred to them.
Is there anything more to be said? Well, yes.
There's a liturgico-historical argument against "chalice," and it's a killer. It was produced in 2006 by an Australian scholar, Fr. Barry Craig. His research was presented at the Western Pacific Rim Patristic Society and published in Worship magazine in 2007: "Potency Not Preciousness: Cyprian's Cup and a Modern Controversy."
Craig focuses on Eucharistic Prayer I, and argues that "hunc praeclarum calicem" ought not to be translated "this precious chalice" because such a translation is directly opposed to what the fathers meant by the original Latin phrase. In translating liturgical texts, Latin poetry and patristic usage matter. The Vatican statement Liturgiam Authenticam directs that careful attention be paid to the history of interpretation of words and phrases, particularly those arising from the thought-world of the fathers that shaped our earliest liturgical history and practice.
Craig meticulously researched the historical background according to these principles. He found that the word praeclarus never means "precious." Noble, outstanding, or potent, but not precious. His research devastatingly reveals that the sense of the English term "precious chalice" only appears a few times in the patristic literature. Whenever it does, it is used figuratively to describe the "precious chalice" of the heretics—i.e., the attractive cup from which false teaching is imbibed.
There's more, too. According to Eucharistic Prayer I, Jesus took "this" cup in his hands. Why this cup? There was an early controversy concerning whether water might be used instead of wine in the Eucharist. The wine-water controversy provides the key to why the Roman canon says "this potent [i.e. alcoholic/spiritually inebriating] cup"—meaning wine. The vessel is plainly not the focus; its contents are. In English, the word "cup" can refer to both the vessel and what it contains. Not so "chalice." You can drink from a chalice, but you cannot "drink a chalice." If you are talking about the contents of the vessel, "cup" is the only word that works.
I think Craig nailed it. He's certainly right about Eucharistic Prayer I. And once you've demolished "this precious chalice" it becomes harder—if not impossible—to justify translating calix as "chalice" in the other, modern Eucharistic prayers, no matter how well anyone likes it. Translators are rightly criticized when they import a faux-antique term into modern compositions.
If "chalice" is not required by the Latin language and it runs contrary to liturgical and patristic tradition, why are we saying it? The International Commission on English in the Liturgy does not account for its decisions, but a clue appeared in a footnote to the 2006 draft that was sent for review to the English-speaking bishops. This footnote explained that at certain points in the history of the English language Catholics favored "chalice" and Protestants favored "cup." The inescapable inference is that the word "chalice" is preferred in order to perpetuate a dead distinction between Catholics and Protestants. But is this something we want to do today? Most Catholics would say no.
So here's my constructive suggestion: Just say "cup." It's the right word.
About the Author
Rita Ferrone is the author of several books about liturgy, including Liturgy: Sacrosanctum Concilium (Paulist Press).
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Excellent demolition of one of the false "Monsignor knows better" locutions in the ghastly new translation (along with "even the angels", "acclaim" for "dicentes", "are" for "astantes", and the notorious "dewfall"). The poterion or calix is a drinking cup, nothing more, just like the lieti calici in banquet scenes in Verdi's Macbeth and La Traviata. The repeated "chalice" in the current translations distracts from our sharing in the blood of Christ to a fetishism of begemmed artifacts.
So - why not use BOTH? Use "cup" when placing it in context of the Last Supper: "When supper was ended, He took the cup...", and use "chalice" when referring to it elsewhere in the liturgy, which is not after all a recreation of the last Supper, but sacred DRAMA, RITUAL, filled with beauty and historical continuity. Good grief, Orthodox Christians have used bejewelled chalices for years, and they heap whatever splendor and beauty they can onto their liturgy and church interiors, to set them APART from the mundane world, to glorify God with the best they have, and to give worshippers symbolic glimpses of heaven. I have never met an Orthodox Christian who didn't get the "message" of the Eucharist because of this, nor did I know fellow Catholics decades ago who had a problem with "chalice", jewelled or not. You don't make the liturgy "meaningful" by simplifying it on the pretext that average catholics are too stupid to comprehend it orherwise. That's insulting.
If it has to be "cup" because Jesus used a cup, not a chalice, then hey, let's go back to humble clay or wooden cups, which He would have known, get rid of vestments (Jesus didn't wear them), pipe organs (jesus didn't know of them) altars, stained glass windows, and all the rest. Let's reduce the Mass to a touchy-feeley "here and now" experience again, sweep away centuries of inspiration found in sacred ritual, sell all religious art in the name of Christian "socialism", and hold hands and sing Kumbaya.
Distracts from our sharing of the Blood of Christ, how? Because you assume that average Catholics (who have no problem wearing what gold and jewels they can afford to parties, weddings and the like, because those events are "special") 'relate" to what, paper cups better? Maybe we should refer to Christ the King as "Christ the President" too.
Pope Francis has reminded us that the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is the presence of the Risen and Transfigured Jesus. That is why He is present whole and entire, body and blood, soul and divinity, in both the form of bread and the form of wine.
The cup or chalice does not contain just his blood. In fact, I find it rather difficult to imagine that the risen and transfigured Jesus can "bleed" -- in spite of those old stories and legends of "bleeding hosts".
I think a lot of popular imagination about the "real presence" thinks we are supposed to believe that the 'presence' is that of the historical Jesus as He was when He was on earth.
So it is refreshing and helpful to have Pope Francis remind us what the Church ought to believe -- that the "real" Real Presence is Jesus as He is now in heaven -- the "Lamb of God" who gave his life for us "Once and for all time" as the Epistle to the Hebrews says.
I much prefer that we can remind ourselves that our Liturgy has its roots in the Passover Supper. We re-enact what Jesus did "until He comes."
There's another reason why "cup" is the correct word. The Vatican seems to forget from time to time that the original language of the Church -- and of the Gospels -- was Greek, not Latin. What Jesus took up and shared with his friends was a plain old "potérion," an earthenware mug. (Cf. Mt 16:237, Mk 14:23, Lk 22:20 ) To my thinking that's definitive.
It seems your argument is based on "Most Catholics would say no.", as if Catholicism were a democracy. All you have to do is Google "chalice", or better "cup" and "chalice" on eBay and you will see the difference, that one has Mickey Mouse versions, the other elegant and precious artworks to hold the Saviour.
What a non-article this is whose only intent is to be divisive. The author should consider becoming an Episcopalian for whom almost anything goes as long as it is democratic.
Neat trick. Translate from ordinary Greek to super reverent Latin and so make everything more solemn and more mysterious. English is of course, 3 or more languages removed.
This article certainly helps to build up the case against the new so-called translation, a grossly political document designed to help roll back the real reforms of Vatican II.
However, I continue to insist that the "translation" is not the only, or even the real, culprit. That honor belongs to the "typical" text of the Third Roman Missal. It's not just the translation; it's WHAT is being translated. And that "what" has been deeply tampered with, on purpose and with malice aforethought. The rejected ICEL translation is marginally better than what we have, but not much. Why not? Because it is still a translation of a faulty typical edition. We need to scrap the "Third Roman Missal" along with Liturgiam Authenticam and all the rest that went with it.
For more of this sad history, see Lost in translation: the bishops, the Vatican & the English Liturgy, in Commonweal, Dec 2, 2005 by John Wilkins
Isn't it absurd to have the institution narratives in Matthew, Mark and Luke in the USCCB's own New American Bible speak of a "cup" while they insist on using the word "chalice" in the Liturgy?
I understand Mr. Thorssen's point, but it is important to stress the relationship between the perhaps elaborate vessel being used in the liturgy and the simple cup Jesus used.
And those who stress the way the word cup is used to refer to its contents also pick up on another important dimension of its meaning. Remember when Jesus asks James and John whether they can drink the cup that he will drink? He is not referring to an object, but an experience. "This cup" may be a simple phrase but it is rich in meaning.
The last time this tempest hit this teapot (kreter? amphora?) someone argued that "cup" was unsatisfactory because it was too suggestive of coffee, and "chalice" was therefore to be preferred. I recall wondering whether this logic would be applied to Ps 23:5, but so far I've seen no overflowing chalices in English translations of that psalm. The faithful keep praying and singing it, apparently untroubled by interfering visions of modern breakfast beverages.
Gunnar Thorssen:
1. I'm willing to be corrected, but I think liturgical references to the vessel in question pretty much all deal with the Last Supper and the origin of the eucharist (first offering the cup of salvation, then recalling the words and actions of Jesus). I gather you're O.K. with using "cup" in that context. "Chalice" is the natural term to use in instructions about or descriptions of the ritual, but that's not really the language of the liturgy. I don't see why translating "calicem" and "calix" as "cup" need entail archaizing or super-ascetic shunning of jeweled chalices and temporal splendor. That Matthew has magi bringing gold and other royal gifts, or that we call Christ our KIng, in no way contradicts belief in the powerless infant described by Luke as lying in a manger. And using expensive vessels need not make us forget how ordinary were the outward signs Jesus chose (though the risk of such forgetfulness is real).
2. Your reference to socialism, with the dismissive quotation marks, makes me wonder yet again at how modest Newman's claims were about the development of doctrine. Though the New Testament is part of our rule of faith, we can comfortably regard Acts 4:32-5:11 not as normative for us but rather as the record of a failed experiment. That the Spirit of the Lord apparently participated (5:9) may briefly puzzle us, but that can doubtless be explained away. Otherwise we might have to think it possible we could be mistaken.
3. The scornful use of "Kumbaya," originally from a Christian hymn created by a marginalized people, seems likely to survive despite its now superannuated tiresomeness. Here's a historical note of possible interest: http://peacecorpsonline.org/messages/messages/2629/2076559.html
Ted K:
Reducing Ferrone's closely reasoned and well-sourced argument to "Most Catholics would say no" is a heroic rhetorical stretch. Rather than being central to her argument, that sentence has to do with something quite peripheral, in fact, a footnote, and with the question of whether stressing differences among Christians should guide liturgical language. Given that context it is all the more remarkable that you accuse Ferrone of divisiveness and then cap that by inviting her to leave the Church. As for the Church and democracy, that red herring has surely lost its fragrance by now. I can only (a) comment that the sensus fidelium deserves more than lip service and (b) recommend John L. McKenzie's Authority in the Church.
I have a comment on "cup" versus "chalice": in fact I actually made it in a letter to the print version of this magazine more than two years ago, in support of a article "Cup or Chalice?" in the June 1, 2012 number of the Commonweal, by Father John R. Donahue, S.J., of the Ecumenical Institute of Theology at St. Mary's Seminary and University, Baltimore. Fr Donahue liked my comment, though the letter was unprinted of course: for as an art historian, and once editor-in-chief of an important magazine in my field, I have never seen either Commonweal or The Tablet (London) give a damn about an argument from art history (Anglo-Saxon attitudes?). Anyway, here it goes, slightly modified here as a blog.
Stimulated by Rita Ferrone's new article "Take This Chalice—Please: Why 'Cup' Is the Right Word in the Mass," I would like to highlight two other factors that I suspect may also be important in Benedict's stubborn attachment to "chalice." One is that I suspect that there is a problem vis-à-vis the new German, even though that has seemed inaccessible on the Internet. For what we think of as a chalice in English is an essentially footed (and yes, often ornamental) Pokal, in Benedict's German, which I would bet is not want he meant to imply. Confusingly, present day dictionaries give Trinkbecher as equivalent to "chalice"; so that even though nobody would want a nondescript Tasse (cup as in "cup of coffee"), there must be confusion insofar as Trinkbecher must suggest an nice neutral "beaker" to us – not at all a Pokal – even though a German/English dictionary translates it as "chalice"!
My other idea was simpler: that the Authorized Version ("King James") clearly and invariably gives "cup"; but the Douay-Rheims – notwithstanding all the AV owed to it – had "chalice," meaning that some might think "cup" too Protestant, when there was a Catholic choice. Here however, Fr Donahue noted to me, "I think 'chalice' was used in the Douay-Rheims translation because it was based on the Vulgate (which uses calix) while the KJV was based on the original languages." I do think it's amazing how many credible arguments from various points of view go to confirm that "chalice" is simply not the right word – in, of course, a rhetorically dreadful translation of the English Mass, something that positively shames the Church. Scholars in the twenty-second century may wonder why our Church was so sub-literate (despite the decent modernization of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer in our day) as to force people to use much less than decent English for the Catholic Mass. Mere aestheticism? Hardly.I have a comment on "cup" versus "chalice": in fact I actually made it in a letter to the print version of this magazine more than two years ago, in support of a article "Cup or Chalice?" in the June 1, 2012 number of the Commonweal, by Father John R. Donahue, S.J., of the Ecumenical Institute of Theology at St. Mary's Seminary and University, Baltimore. Fr Donahue liked my comment, though the letter was unprinted of course: for as an art historian, and once editor-in-chief of an important magazine in my field, I have never seen either Commonweal or The Tablet (London) give a damn about an argument from art history (Anglo-Saxon attitudes?). Anyway, here it goes, slightly modified here as a blog.
Stimulated by Rita Ferrone's new article "Take This Chalice—Please: Why 'Cup' Is the Right Word in the Mass," I would like to highlight two other factors that I suspect may also be important in Benedict's stubborn attachment to "chalice." One is that I suspect that there is a problem vis-à-vis the new German, even though that has seemed inaccessible on the Internet. For what we think of as a chalice in English is an essentially footed (and yes, often ornamental) Pokal, in Benedict's German, which I would bet is not want he meant to imply. Confusingly, present day dictionaries give Trinkbecher as equivalent to "chalice"; so that even though nobody would want a nondescript Tasse (cup as in "cup of coffee"), there must be confusion insofar as Trinkbecher must suggest an nice neutral "beaker" to us – not at all a Pokal – even though a German/English dictionary translates it as "chalice"!
My other idea was simpler: that the Authorized Version ("King James") clearly and invariably gives "cup"; but the Douay-Rheims – notwithstanding all the AV owed to it – had "chalice," meaning that some might think "cup" too Protestant, when there was a Catholic choice. Here however, Fr Donahue noted to me, "I think 'chalice' was used in the Douay-Rheims translation because it was based on the Vulgate (which uses calix) while the KJV was based on the original languages." I do think it's amazing how many credible arguments from various points of view go to confirm that "chalice" is simply not the right word – in, of course, a rhetorically dreadful translation of the English Mass, something that positively shames the Church. Scholars in the twenty-second century may wonder why our Church was so sub-literate (despite the decent modernization of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer in our day) as to force people to use much less than decent English for the Catholic Mass. Mere aestheticism? Hardly.
Sorry: I really don't know how blogs work, and now comment repeats itself almost twice over, and I can't do anything to erase part.
J. Masheck
Perhaps the Catholic Church translators should take a break and watch "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989)" ,the search for the Holy Grail.
Indiana got it right, a simple cup.
I am happy to see that Joseph Masheck has referred to the excellent article by Fr. John R. Donahue, S.J. publishs bu Commonweal in 2012, "Cup or Chalice" http://bit.ly/VF64AB. It is a good complement to Rita Ferrone's article that happen to support Susan Gannon's comment at July 1, 10:08 pm.
Rueful sympathies, Mr. Masheck, for your struggles with the edit-proof blog. For my part, I erred in neglecting the Douay version of that psalm I mentioned (numbered there as 22, not 23). Following the Vulgate "Dominus regit me," i.e., "The Lord ruleth me," it lacks the evocative direct mention of a shepherd, and that may be one reason why it is less well remembered than others, including the AV. But verse 5 is certainly vivid enough, ending "...my chalice which inebriated me, how goodly is it!" Clearly in this version it is not the vessel but the drinker who is overflowing. And sure enough, the Vulgate has "et calix meus inebrians, quam praeclarus est!"
At this point, my Catholic bowdlerization-detector is on full alert. When Huizinga, in Homo Ludens, quoted Prv 8: 30-31, about the role of Wisdom in the activity of the Creator, the English version had recourse to the Douay: "I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times: Playing in the world" ("ludens coram eo in omni tempore, ludens in orbe terrarum"). The AV did not serve, because it had nothing about playing, only rejoicing --an arguably less frivolous activity better befitting the divine dignity.
So is it the cup or the drinker who is topped up, or is the passage in Hebrew intractably ambiguous? If some expert happens across these ramblings, maybe he or she can enlighten us.
As I recall, the Greek is "poterion," which occurs in Matthre, Luke and I Corinthians, which is defined as a cup or drinking vessel.
We get so hung up on Latin. The NT wasn't written in Latin and, if it were, wouldn't have been so sidely spread.
Yes, Mr. Keleher, and as Mr. Appling pointed out yesterday "poterion" also appears in Mark 14:23. But the debate, and Ms Ferrone's article, has to do primarily with English, specifically English translations of the Roman liturgy, so Latin is relevant --as ought to be clear from many of the comments posted. Similarly, though "consubstantialem" is just a Latin rendering of "homoousion," the recent arguments about English translations deal with whether "consubstantial with" is in any way preferable to "of one being with."
Right, no edit feature. That's "one in being with," of course.
In English, the word "cup" can refer to both the vessel and what it contains. Not so "chalice." You can drink from a chalice, but you cannot "drink a chalice." If you are talking about the contents of the vessel, "cup" is the only word that works.
Meh. Honestly, "drink this cup" and other such usage is archaic anyways, if it was every contemporary outside of the context of the English-vernacular-semi-translation of the Novus Ordo. Why "drink this cup" is supposed to be meaningful English and "drink this chalice" is not, I cannot imagine. Also, for all their fondness for adding and subtracting whole phrases in the process of translation, why "drink from this chalice" should not be permitted, I cannot guess, again.
I find this article unsatisfying because it seems to joust past the point at every turn: The vessel is plainly not the focus; its contents are. This one wins the No Duh award for the evening. And why "chalice" should shift the focus and "cup" not, again, again, again, I cannot fathom. In fact, you can make an easy claim that the precious contents make the cup a precious chalice, in our minds today, and certainly did in the eyes of the Fathers. Christians of this same period wrote, of the Eucharist that they no doubt celebrated around common-ish enough tables: We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat (Heb 13:10).
Lastly, the assertion that Jesus must have had a simple cup has always annoyed me. It is possible, and to some extent likely, I suppose. But the gospels record that he was followed around by at least a few women of means, and it is also likely that such women would have supplied him for his celebration of the Passover, and provided him with their best. He might very well have had a snazzy cup for Passover, and there is nothing in the gospel to indicate that he would have refused anything that brought glory to his Father.
The inescapable inference is that the word "chalice" is preferred in order to perpetuate a dead distinction between Catholics and Protestants. It says something about the author believes the distinction between Catholics and Protestants vis-a-vis the Eucharist is dead; and it's not a good thing that it says.
Thank you, David. The voice of sanity!
Here's a Google Ngram to support my view that "drink this cup" is perfectly archaic itself: http://bit.ly/1j0wmHy
While "drink this cup" has more currency than "drink this chalice" it is basically negligible, and has dropped off over the last century. Tomato, tomahto.
Terrific piece. Rich insight and plain speaking.
Mr. Haber:
1. It's no surprise that this quaint metonymy has declined drastically in what seems to be an unsorted corpus of English texts, regardless of whether the vessel is a cup or a chalice. If the texts were classified, I suspect you'd find that many of those in the mid-nineteenth century were non-liturgical, whereas by the 1980s most or all of the texts would be liturgical or else texts referring to religion in one way or another. (You'd likely find a similar pattern in comparing the use of "one another" and "each other." Grammar handbooks traditionally prescribed the former when more than two parties were involved, but the latter is now overwhelmingly more frequent even in that situation, except in a religious or quasi-religious context --"love one another..."). With the use of the metonym largely restricted to religious texts, it's misleading to call the frequency of "drink this cup" negligible: we don't have the right denominator available. The linear scale on the ordinate indicates that by the year 2000 "drink this cup" occurred in 0.0000017% of all texts, while "drink this chalice" was too infrequent to depict a value using this scale. (Eyeballing it, "drink this cup" would seem to have been anywhere from 5 to 500 times more frequent!).
2. The article deals generally with the use of "cup" versus "chalice" in the liturgical prayers, not with the overt metonymy, which occurs only in one of the memorial acclamations. Elsewhere we have had at various times "drink ye all of this," or "drink from it," and the same goes for the Latin (at worst one might claim some ambiguity as to the antecedent of the English pronoun).
If we think of the Last Supper as a Passover seder—and the synoptic gospels suggest we should—perhaps we should think about what kind of vessels are used at seders. The design of the cockery used in the Upper Room is lost to history, but if you shop for a "cup" for a seder today, you'll find yourself buying a chalice. Could it be that our Jewish friends have preserved a tradition we should be mindful of when discussing this translation?
I am so happy I read this article. I thought I was the only lay Catholic who dislikes the use of the word "chalice" during the Eucharistic prayers. I purposely zone out during that part of the Mass just so that I won't have to hear the word "chalice."
Brian Abel Ragen, Good thought. But every Passover Seder I've ever read (and I've read a lot of them) refers to the "four cups," not the "four chalices." So that chalice you bought, if you bought it, really is a ceremonial cup.
In my comment on the graph cited by Mr. Haber, I should have written "of all trigrams," not "of all texts," but that doesn't change the conclusion.
Yes, but isn't the word for "ceremonial cup" in English "chalice"?
Well, Mr. Ragen, Merriam-Webster defines "chalice" as "a special cup for holding wine; especially: the cup used in the Christian ceremony of Communion." It's also "a drinking cup; GOBLET; especially: the eucharistic cup." So the definitions have to do with both function and shape (see definitions of "goblet"). Nothing about a ceremonial cup, though, except for the "especially," which refers just to the eucharist.
There are plenty of other ceremonial cups, not necessarily set aside for wine, not precisely goblet-shaped or even real cups, and not called chalices. Besides prizes like the Davis Cup and the various World Cups, there's the cup o' kindness for Hogmanay, where "cup" perhaps stands for "cupful," and the vessel may or may not contain wine (Burns, for one, left "wines and vines and drunken Bacchus" to other poets, singing the praises of Scottish barley and its fermentation and distillation products).
The Irish Bishops stonewall on the new translation saying they cannot do anything about it except in concert with the other Anglophone episcopal conferences -- but they COULD have blocked the new translation when asked their approval, but they showed cowardice. http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2014/07/statement-from-the-as...
Why not translate "quaff this goblet"?
Yea, verily, yea, Mr. O Leary!
I'm Church of England, so probably should not comment, and I do not mean this in contempt, but I attended Mass for the first time in ages, it sounded sooooo pompous to me,and downright weird in places; no sacral or hieratic, as I was explained, just plain weird. I mean: 'Mat this water receive by the Holy Spirit the grace of your only begotten Son so that human nature, created in your image, and washed clean through the sacrament of baptism from all the squalor of the life of old, may be found worthy to rise to the life of newborn children through water ad the Holy Spirit." That on Easter Sunday of all days? babies washed cleaned of all life and not them rising but the human nature, washed clean in order to rise to the life of a newborn through water.... what does it even mean?
Mr. Fernandez-Vicente:
Current translations are evidently not beyond criticism. Ms Ferrone's article, the debate preceding it, and all the subequent comments should make that clear. And that goes for the Easter liturgy too. But I don't think the prayer to which you refer deserves to be dismissed out of hand as "weird." At the same time, asking what something means is always fair (preferably without the "even" that suggests there can be no meaning).
In this instance, it helps first to have listened to the immediately preceding prayers. They recall episodes in salvation history going back to the creation, showing in various ways the intimate relationship between water and life (literally and symbolically). Then comes the passage you cited. It is meant to be spoken, and the written text should be set out in a way that guides the speaker:
May this water receive by the Holy Spirit
the grace of your Only Begotten Son,
so that human nature, created in your image
and washed clean through the Sacrament of Baptism from all the squalor of the life of old,
may be found worthy to rise to the life of newborn children through water and the Holy Spirit.
Forgive me for seeing in your comments a somewhat confused processing of this prayer. It does not refer to washing babies, let alone having them "cleaned of all life." Instead, it is the innocence of newborn babes to which the water of baptism restores sinners.
The "squalor of the life of old" is no more than the "old man" of Colossians 3:9-10, to be put off in favor of the "new man, renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him" (AV). As an Anglican, you will be familiar with the baptismal rite in the Book of Common Prayer, which asks that "the old Adam in the Child may be so buried, that the new man be raised up in him."
So yes, even infants are regarded as needing restoration to a primal innocence (or establishment in an intended one, depending on how original sin is understood). But the "squalor" that is most obvious has to do with all too familiar actual sin, of which babies are innocent. In 1 Peter 2: 1-3, we are urged to turn from evil and "as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk" of God's word. From that passage came the entrance prayer for the second Sunday of Easter, once called Quasimodo Sunday: Quasi modo geniti infantes... (As newborn babes...).
Langland, now eclipsed for most readers by Bunyan, understood the heavenly citizenship conferred by baptism, so different from the secular grades of citizenship in his day:
"From the ragged root by Christian charity springs the rose that is red and sweet;
For we are all Christ's creatures --and of his coffers rich.
And brethren as of one blood --as well beggars as earls,
For on Calvary of Christ's blood --Christendom gan spring,
And blood brethren we became there --of one body won,
As quasidmodo geniti --and gentlemen each one,
No beggar or serving boy among us --save sin made him so."
Mr Irias, I'm sorry if I cam across as all uncharitable. I was not denying that the prayer is orthodox. You made a good job at explaining its orthodoxy, but that is precisely my point: it is so convoluted that it requires a ridiculous amount of explaining and is ill-sounding in many places. Asking new-born babies to be washed from the squalor of some life of old is nothing short of comical. I am familiar with the BCP's prayer, that the new Adam may be so buried, that the new man be raised...' People are raised. But that 'human nature' be raised to the life of a newborn that has just previously been declared in need to be cleansed is ill-sounding. I am also quite aware that the first letter of Peter asks us to aspire to become as newborn babes, but that is to say innocent, not as in need to be washed of any original sin of which he knew absolutely nothing and which is assumed bu the catholic liturgy. And my guess is that people will know the Hunchback of Notre Dame a lot better than the introit of the mass of that day. If parishioners are to be literate enough to know Bunyan to make any sense of missal prayers, you are, I'm afraid, in a pickle.
Mr. Fernandez-Vicente:
Whether the prayer could be better phrased, and in which ways it could be improved, are questions on which worshippers may reasonably differ. But, as the saying goes, you don't get to invent your own facts. What concerned me about your comments was not any supposed lack of charity but rather a clear misrepresentation of what the prayer says. Again, the business of having babies washed from squalor, whether comical or not, is not in the prayer: it is your own importation, hard to attribute to anything but an extreme muddle. I referred to Scripture, the BCP, and Langland only in the hope that it might help you out of the muddle, not because parishioners need such references to make sense of the prayer. As for my reference to 1 Peter, it could hardly have been more clear that the symbolism has to do with innocence: to turn from evil and be like newborn babes. The same is true of the Easter prayer to which you objected: to be found worthy to rise to the life of newborn children. I mentioned original sin only as a side issue raised by the BCP language (it is a potential source of confusion in the liturgies of all Christian churches that practise infant baptism).
Mr Fernandez-Vicente, as an Anglican your comments are very welcome here, since the perpetrators of the new translation have boasted that they are getting back to a graciously exalted language such as is found in Anglicanism -- some of them are ex-Anglicans who believe they have innate mastery of beautiful English. I thought at first that the prayer you cited must be a parody, but indeed you quote it accurately, and indeed it is a morally embarrassing piece. The whole text is here: http://onlineministries.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/Lent/blessin...
Many of us warned loudly for years that this new translation would be a pastoral disaster, but our craven bishops would not listen, and now cannot afford to listen without terrible loss of face. The new translation is a scandal second only to that of child abuse.
Well we can still enjoy picking over the bones of the rancid product:
"O God, who by invisible power
accomplish a wondrous effect
through sacramental signs
and who in many ways have prepared water"
The Latin diction comes across as flat, bathetic here.
"O God, who by the outpouring of the flood
foreshadowed regeneration,
so that from the mystery of one and the same element of water
would come an end to vice and a beginning of virtue;"
From a mystery comes an end and a beginning -- pure gobbledygook.
"and, as he hung upon the Cross,
gave forth water from his side along with blood"
gave forth?
"look now, we pray, upon the face of your Church"
unfortunate echo of "look not on our sins but on the faith of the Church" making one even suspect a typo
"May this water receive by the Holy Spirit
the grace of your Only Begotten Son,
so that human nature, created in your image,
and washed clean through the Sacrament of Baptism
from all the squalor of the life of old,
may be found worthy to rise to the life of newborn children
through water and the Holy Spirit."
nature found worthy to rise to a life of newborn children?
"May the power of the Holy Spirit,
O Lord, we pray
come down through your Son
into the fullness of this font,"
the fullness? brimming with water?
I tried to google the Latin text of this prayer but could not find it. The internet is rife with older liturgical texts which drown out any presence of the current Roman Missal. Rather disturbing.
I know de gustibus and all that... non disputandum, but I'm glad someone agrees. I cannot get over the contradiction which declares in the same prayer the life of newborn children as something to be cleansed and yet something one must rise to. It is either poetic license or bad theology. If I may be cheeky for a moment though: it has led so many Anglican parishes here who would once only have used the Roman Missal as a matter of course to revert to Common Worship, which is a blessing of sorts, I guess, for us.
And wjat is the grace of God's Only-begotten Son if not his Holy Spirit?
Mr. O Leary and Mr. Fernandez-Vicente:
There's undoubtedly plenty of awkwardness in the current translation. It was all too evidently put together (as some have claimed the camel was) by a committee not fully in harmony. But that's no reason to blame the text of a prayer for phrases it does not contain (about "babies washed cleaned [sic] of all life" or "babies...washed from the squalor...").
And remember, Mr. O Leary, the flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true, so quaff that goblet!
Mr. O Leary and Mr. Fernandez-Vicente:
I can't be sure that this is the current Latin version, rather than an older one, but the text is recognizable as a possible source for the current English translation:
A few features may be worth noting:
1. The "face of your Church" is present in the Latin, and it does not seem all that jarring in context. The prayer recalls Jesus, who "in cruce pendens...aquam de latere suo produxit, ac, post resurrectionem suam, discipulis iussit...docete...baptizantes" so that "respice in faciem Ecclesiae tuae, eique dignare fontem baptismatis aperire" follows fairly naturally.
2. Here too the grace of God's only-begotten Son is associated with the Holy Spirit with no apparent concern about redundancy. Trinitarian language can only be analogical, pace Mr. F-V: "Sumat haec acqua Unigeniti tui gratiam de Spiritu Sancto.."
3. In the Latin, too, it is humanity that is cleansed, not babies as such: "ut homo, ad imaginem tuam conditus, sacramento baptismatis a cunctis squaloribus vetustatis ablutus..."
4. Crucially, in the Latin, the baptized rise again into a new infancy: "...in novam infantiam ex aqua et Spiritu Sancto resurgere mereatur." The worst sticking-point for Mr. F-V has been "newborn children as something to be cleansed and yet something one must rise to." At the risk of exasperating perseveration, I again observe that this paradox is not intrinsic to the English text. Yet there is a genuine potential confusion in any metaphorical language about baptism, rebirth, and newborns. The innocence of a newborn is a powerful symbol. But being a newborn in the ordinary sense is not the same as being reborn (I think Nicodemus understood that despite his feigned obtuseness). But this kind of language would probably not have presented a problem in the ealiest days of Christianity, before infant baptism became common. In fact, I have to wonder if there were babies baptized at that Mass Mr. F-V attended...
I simply do not use the word 'chalice' in the Eucharistic Prayers, but do refer to the empty vessel as a chalice.
Please let us use our common sense!
This is a storm in a (tea) cup.
"In the Latin, too, it is humanity that is cleansed, not babies as such"... you say, but you simply cannot separate the two
Mr Purcell, with much love and respect, it's not a storm in a teacup. It could be a mere storm for us proddies, but if you have to modify the liturgy of your church, aka Tradition , which allegedly holds as heavy weigth as Scripture, in order to pray publicly, well...
The Latin prayer reads very well, and shows up all the more clearly the hopeless tawdriness of the English. Why did the world's bishops not say, "For God's sake hire a good translator with a sense of the English language and do not impose this committee sawdust on the people of God!" Why did the US bishops scoff at the prophetic voice of Bp Trautman? They have created a terrible scandal, and should read Matthew 18 for some stern words from the Lord.
Interesting that "face of the Church" is "facies ecclesiae" in this prayer but "vultus ecclesiae" in other texts, including ones by JP2. In one of the new Eucharistic prayers there is a lumpish reference to God's "face" where the world "countenance" would be better: "welcome them into the light of your face".
"ut unius eiusdemque elementi mysterio et finis esset vitiis et origo virtutum" sounds fine
"so that from the mystery of one and the same element of water
would come an end to vice and a beginning of virtue"
sounds awful -- the inversion in the placement of "would come" is too stilted
I would translate: "so that the power of one and the same element spells the end of vices and the origin of virtues"
the 1998 translation is presumably better, if anyone cares to root it up. But why have we become so imprisoned in this dismal routine of translation? Is it because we no longer have any idea of what the Mass means and so do not trust ourselves to compose new prayers?
One, I think outstanding, case of "false friend" translation comes soon after the Consecration: the celebrant prays that the Church should be growing in charity. What is meant is love. How to translate "caritas" in this country is an old question but I believe the slow semantic shift to what Americans call "charity" today has made it impossible, e.g., to cite the first encyclical of Benedict XVI as "God is charity".
Just wait until the readings for July 25 come around...if you're Catholic, simply change the words in the Bible to match the word Chalice and pretty soon you realize that Chalice is really what Jesus meant to say because now he tells the mother of James and John that they will have to accept the chalice not the cup as the Bible says. We simply change the readings so they match the words we use at Mass.
The official liturgical readings use the word chalice while the Bible uses the word cup...
Now stupid can we are?
Here's your USCCB official liturgical reading for July 25...what's the big deal...Jesus said the word chalice.
Oh and by the way he also says the Our Father the way we say it in Mass too. For those keeping ecclesiastical score at home.
I agree with Rita...cup is the right word.
And if we are talking about words.... let's go to the Our Father. The ICEL translation spoke of forgive us our "sins", not trespasses. Original Latin: debita - debt, what is owed.
"Let holy charity mine outward vesture be..."
The beautiful sense of charity can be recovered only by encasing it in equally archaic diction as in that hymn. Calling love charity in modern context just sounds horribly stilted. There is the same nakedness and oddness in the efforts to rehabilitate words like "oblation" in the eucharistic prayers, evidently composed by people with no ear for language or style.
We Episcopalians are more democratic but at least we have our scriptural translations correct. As to other "democratic" issues, one of the most important is the laity and clergy have a vote electing our bishop.
Very interesting article. My essay, "A Visitor's Impressions of the Liturgy," puts this matter in a larger framework.
During a visit last year in the U.S., I celebrated Mass at a number of parishes – first having familiarized myself with the new translations. After returning to Nicaragua, where I have been working with Christian Base Communities since 1986, I reflected on my experience in my native country and tried to sort out some impressions….
Joe Mulligan, SJ
It seems that Commonweal has a rather unhealthy fixation on the word Chalice. How many times have they tried to discredit the translation now?
This whole article is really done in bad faith. According to the article:
"There's a liturgico-historical argument against "chalice," and it's a killer. "
But the the argument that is then presented has nothing to do with chalice, but everything to do with "precious." It's a bait and switch that is embarrassingly intellectually dishonest for a publication that claims to be serious. Perhaps precious is not the best translation, but the article does absolutely nothing to "kill" the argument for the use of chalice.
The reality is that Greek has pretty much only one word for drinking vessel. The fact that the New Testament uses "cup" is not a statement about the appearance of the vessel used at the Last Supper. If Jesus had used a Scandanavian drinking horn, a martini glass or one of those ridiculous 3' novelty drink glasses from Vegas, the Greek would have still said "cup." But context reveals a lot. Jesus celebrated the Passover in an upper room that had been prepared for the Passover. An upper room in that time and place speaks wealth. And history shows us the kinds of cups Jews have used for Passover. Historically, the Jews have pretty much always celebrated with noble, special vessels, the best their means could provide. And the wealthy had means to provide quite well. The vessels used in Passover meals, especially by the wealthy like those whose space Jesus used, look much more like what we call a chalice than the simple earthen cups so popular in certain circles.
Which is why our liturgy says "chalice" in the Latin. It says chalice because the scriptural context reveals just what kind of "cup" Jesus was using. And our translation is a translation of the Latin Missal, not the Greek scripture.
This article is crafted backward, Commonweal has taken the conclusion it wants and then casted about for arguments that "support" it. That is polemics, and very disappointing.


text:
Are you able to get AMMO or pistols in your area?
So I have been hearing the rumblings, but I am not dedicated to the "gun" world nearly as much as others. I usually go to the range a couple of times a month to practice and I just buy the cheap range ammo they sell. When I went there today they had NO 9mm ammo at all! Not one box in the store! The cases looked bare and the shelves looked empty! Again, I have read the articles, but didn't see it for myself until today.
Is you area being effected as well? I would think places like Texas are in a better position then outside of Philly. But are they?
25 Answers answer
Every store here is out of every cartridge except 7mm and .45 Colt it seems. I managed to pick up some .45 ACP HPs a few weeks ago, but I don't want to waste those at the range. I'm willing to bet the fear of weapons restrictions has actually done more for the economy than anything else this administration has tried.
Our Walmart (as example) was sold out of EVERYTHING 3 weeks ago. They got in a small shipment, but limited the number you could buy and the selection was sparse to say the least - I noticed Friday their shelves were nearly empty again. Haven't been anywhere to check on handgun availability, but I've got a couple friends involved with the gun show crowd (one holds an FFL) and things are backordered up to 2 years.
I'm waiting for the clowns that went and bought cases of ammo to start realizing they need money for other things and to start selling off their "investments" at bargain basement prices.
Ammo is hit and miss, mostly miss. I found some white box Remington at a Walmart, the local one you need to check everyday. They get a case now and then of some Serbian 9mm but you're only allowed 3 boxes. They had a case of .223 sell out in 3 hours.
Guns stores are empty, pistols and rifles are a crapshoot too. When I bought my last pistol, the store had two boxes of 9mm, 20 rd. JHP.
I have purchased ammo online from 3 places without a problem and it arrives quick. Even those places you need to check all the time.
@eraten: They say the President is one heck of a gun salesman.
We have been unable to find ammo and decided to go to a gun show. For a 50 round box of 9mm, they wanted $99.99 for it. This ammo, we were able to buy for >$30 before Obummer decided to attempt to trample on our rights. A box of 250 count .40 cal was $175, and had been $80.
I was about to buy my husband a new rifle for Valentine's Day, but what is the use of purchasing one when you can not buy ammo? Kind of dumb, but my brother-in-law just bought a new gun for which he has no ammo.
Up until a week ago, we were able to buy all types of ammo from our gun range. All the other places had been sold out for quite a while. So glad we can make reloads.
A bushmaster I was looking at in October ($800.00 then) is now over $1800.00 an they limit the amount of bulk (700+) ammo you can buy ( I don't really buy in bulk) at the range because they can't keep enough in stock and want to make sure that everyone has some. They wanted over $500 just for the striped lower of a colt LE. Pistols are fewer as well but not as hard to come buy as 5.56 and 7.62 guns are right now. It is easy to get just plain ball for my 9's and 22 is always easy, but Critical defense is hard to get in the few places I have looked.
@coondogg97: If you are in the philly area Targetmaster off 202 in Concord has ammo. At least they did a couple days ago.
Just bought 1000 .40 cal (32cpr) and 1000 9mm (26cpr) from a manufacturer in my area of Michigan... 2-3 week back order.
Yes, ammo is scarce, you can thank the "I've turn it for a profit" jerks for that. Want to see real fun? Try having an entire industry stuck in limbo because Cuomo's gun ban doesn't make sense and no one knows what they can sell.
We have a great shop here, they have a decient supply of the more expensive 9mm ammo, plinking rounds they can hardly keep up with demand. Also they are not raising their prices on their ammo or weapons. They say their suppliers have not rasied their prices and they will not gouge their coustomers, pretty great place to buy from IMHO.
Crazy people are hoarding because they think that guns will be banned. It's been going on for years, but it's been accelerated by the recent scandal.
The following was forwarded to me today:
Smith & Wesson-is running at Full capacity making 300+ guns/day-mainly M&P
pistols. They are unable to produce any more guns to help with the shortages.
RUGER: Plans to increase from 75% to 100% in the next 90 days.
FNH: Moving from 50% production to 75% by Feb 1st and 100% by March 1.
Remington: Maxed out 750-800 weapons a day
Armalite: Maxed out.
DPMS: Can't get enough parts to produce any more product.
COLT: Production runs increasing weekly...bottle necked by Bolt carrier's.
LWRC: Making only black guns, running at full capacity...can't get enough gun
quality steel to make barrels.
Springfield Armory: Only company who can meet demand but are running 30-45 days
AMMO: Every caliber is now Allocated! We are looking at a nation wide shortage
of all calibers over the next 9 months. All plants are producing as much ammo as
possible w/ of 1 BILLION rounds produced weekly. Most is military followed by
L.E. and civilians are third in line.
MAGPUL is behind 1 MILLION mags, do not expect any large quantities of magpul
anytime soon.
RELOADERS... ALL Remington, Winchester, CCI & Federal primers are going to ammo
FIRST. There are no extra's for reloading purposes... it could be 6-9 months
before things get caught up.
As an aside, one of my husband's favorite local gun shop had to "borrow" several hundred rounds of a certain caliber of ammo from him in order to keep up with demand. Mr. LaV had happened upon a marvelous sale a few years back and picked up quite a bit at bargain prices (our family loves to plink at the range). He says it's absolutely crazy what is going on & knows what it's like to have ones country take away ones guns.
lots of small mom and pop shops have ammo, the "gun" stores don't. I know people who went out and bought all the ammo and high capacity magazines they could get their hands on. THey are now selling for 2-3x what they paid for it. Wish I had thought of that, a little profit never hurts. THe one guy told me he bought a skid of .223 ammo, and is now selling it by the case for big money.
We've been looking and haven't found much. Stopped at Bass Pro in Harrisburg two weeks ago and the shelves were practically bare. thanks for the tip about Targetmaster @philosopherott, going to check them out - not too far from us. There is a gun show in March that we will check out,
i hear this happens periodically and things go back to normal. some stores were out of ammo for months in '08-'09
In this enlightened age of Obama, who needs guns and ammo anyhow?! No but really, all stores in my area sold out of most everything (we still believe in the second amendment here in NV). I got the last 50 rds of 9mm at Wallyworld on Saturday by some stroke of luck but there has been nothing. I havent even been out to shoot the last couple months because I don't want to burn through my stock. I agree that after this blows over, prices will once again become reasonable (for a time) and people who stocked now will be dealing for cash at far less than they paid.
@mkdr: where is the show i would be very interisted in going.
@philosopherott: Here is the link to the show info. http://www.eaglearmsgunshows.com/
This group does shows in various locations in PA, you will see one listed for next weekend, just not as close as the one in Oaks in March. We have been to the one at Oaks many times, it is usually quite good with a large selection. If you go be sure to follow the directions on the website (GPS is misleading) and don't forget to print out your coupon to save $1 on admission.
@mkdr: Thanks!
I find it all pretty amusing. The conservative party is known for their fear mongering tactics to get votes, but this time it has backfired (pun intended) on them.
Oh no, theys a-gunna ban mah ammo and guns!
(buys all guns and ammo)
Oh no, we is all out of ammo and guns!
@bsmith1: I don't get it... Is the point that you are so advanced that you are above gun ownership? How has this "backfired"? Gun manufacturers are making record profits and I have made more on Ruger stock than I can count in the last 12 months. I see your point though, only rednecks with southern accents still buy guns and ammo. If only they could see what you see.
@davidschronic @bsmith1: Let's not make this personal or start bringing around stereotypes.
That way leads to madness and post deletions and why we can't have nice things like civil conversations on controversial topics.
@inkycatz: Oh come on, just having a little fun :)
@davidschronic: I own a .22 caliber rifle, but I didn't run out and spend all my money so I could horde ammo I don't need. When I say it "backfired" I mean that the guns and ammo some people love so much are now hard to find because those same type of people went crazy and cleared the shelves. If reason had prevailed over fear, there would be no ammo shortage.
I agree it's good for the gun economy, so I can't complain there. I just worry that these folks will be spending less elsewhere because they spent all their cash all on guns and ammo. Overall, it might not improve the economy.
@inkycatz: My bad.
@philosopherott: Not sure what area you're in, but I just got back from French Creek Outfitters in Phoenixville and they just got a shipment of ammo in. They had a bunch of stuff.


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