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Plant-Driven Design: Creating Gardens That Honor Plants, Place, and Spirit Hardcover – Oct 7 2008
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Product Description
"[In] their fascinating book… the Ogdens explore how a garden can engage the senses, and seduce and enchant one with a sense of arrival and discovery. Through it all, they aim to help gardeners create gardens that play to their plant's strengths."
"An excellent book to add to your library…great advice for gardeners of all levels."
"Plant-Driven Design champions the "plant-it-instead-of-pave-it" point of view better than any book to date."
"A treasure trove of photographs and ideas for ecological and glorious home landscaping."
"What the opinionated authors think doesn't work is described as fully as what they like, and they don't pull punches. … [T]he strong point of view makes the book a better read than most of its coffee-table-worthy brethren."
About the Author
This husband-and-wife team's horticultural experience spans USDA zones 4-10. They have designed gardens and/or gardened professionally in Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Kansas, Louisiana, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Texas, Utah, and Wyoming as well as England, Ireland, and Austria. Public projects include gardens at Naples Botanical Garden, Denver Botanic Gardens, Callaway Gardens, and San Antonio Botanical Gardens.
Scott and Lauren have written several books in which they pioneer new plants and garden aesthetics. Their latest book, Plant-Driven Design, takes a bold look at garden design from a plant perspective, marrying site, region, plants, and people while both embracing and transcending regionality. Other books include Garden Bulbs for the South (Timber Press 2007), Passionate Gardening (Fulcrum Publishing 2000), The Moonlit Garden (Taylor Publishing 1998), The Undaunted Garden (Fulcrum Publishing 1994), Waterwise Gardening (PrenticeHall 1994), and Gardening Success With Difficult Soils (Taylor Publishing 1992.)
The Ogdens and their work have been featured on several television shows and in numerous publications, including the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Nature, Martha Stewart Living, Sunset, and Horticulture. Awards include two American Horticultural Society book awards and a landscape design award from the Association of Professional Landscape Designers.
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On the negative side, I am on page 51, and have been struck already with how -- for lack of a better word -- catty they are about other designers and gardens. I am happy to read their ideas for what makes a garden beautiful, but I can do without their references to, for instance, a native plant garden director "piously" sharing her opinions with them (which they obviously didn't share) or statements like "[i]nsensitivity to this plant's spirit is exemplified by a planting along the south side of an east-west path at a prominent botanic garden". I am hoping this attitude will settle down as I progress through the book. It's very jarring to be reading their peaceful, nature-driven, perhaps even dare I say, "hippy-like" writing, and then have them suddenly stop to take a swipe at another designer or garden or gardening theory. Doing that exhibits the same arrogance for which they denigrate others.
I'll update as I continue through the book.
UPDATE: So it's November and I'm only at page 117. I kinda sorta took the spring/summer/fall off to actually go in my garden, instead of reading about them. I must say that I think the cattiness dropped off some, or perhaps just became broader comments, rather than swipes at particular gardens/designers. I am a little disappointed, though, that I haven't learned much more. I guess when I bought the book I was thinking it would be a little more instructional in terms of HOW to make your garden look natural, once you have the right plants. My problem is trying to figure out spacing and doing those "drifts" that are always talked about, but never laid out on a page to clearly see a diagram of how many plants in what section, how far apart from the next plant, how to intersperse different plants so they look like they have naturally drifted into each other. Yes, I know, it's nature, but there's math and patterning in the natural world, too.
The book is a curious mix of broad gardening/nature concepts, interspersed with charts of specific types of plants (eg, "big-and bold-leaved plants"). The charts aren't as helpful as you might think, though, because most are not broken down into zones, light, water needs, etc, so you would have to go through the whole list and google them to find ones that might work in your garden. I did find their insert about Koppen Zones interesting, but my interest was purely academic, because they don't really discuss the zones in the body of the book, or separate out certain comments for certain zones.
So, now that the cooler weather is upon us, I hope to finish up this book soon, if for no other reason than to finish this review so I don't have to think about the "comment" the author saw fit to attach to my review. Talk about spoiling any good vibes... I'll update again when I'm done with the book.
Readers will not want to sit and read this all at one time - it's a book to return to again and again. The abundance of beautiful photographs and detailed, honest prose provide repose for stressed minds, offer inspiration for new garden concepts, encourage exploration of the natural world, and grant freedom to experience plants as the basis for all garden processes.
On the other hand, Plant Driven Design offers some of the most diverse and creative plant lists ever incorporated into a single gardening book, with hundreds of suggestions of a vast array of species and cultivars for a myriad of sites and conditions. I was especially intrigued with lists of Junipers to Love, Bulbs for Steppe Plantings, Designing with Light, and Matching Climates and Plants.
Gardeners of all flavors will appreciate the depth and breadth that these intelligent and creative gardeners bring forth - science, art, philosophy, travel, romance and nature woven purposefully throughout the pages. This is a book that will change the way you experience gardens forever.
Favorite quote:
In the chapter, Putting Plants First: "The earthly Edens we create are indeed poetic realms in which we are able to forget our modern-day divorce from the natural world. This renewal of our relationship with nature is the very essence of garden experience."
They start out with a manifesto about just that balance:
"Gardens are certainly for people, but in order to be gardens, they must be created with plants first in mind.
This is not to say that architecturally driven landscapes cannot be beautiful. They often are, in the same way that well-proportioned buildings are beautiful. But if their fixed geometry goes too far, so that the composition rests only on the static beauty of paving, walls, sheared hedges, massed bedding flowers, and repeated lines and beds of matching trees, shrubs, and other architectural subjects, there is little to love save architecture.
In these kinds of landscapes nature has been utterly defeated."
Then they bring out the real distinction:
"The error made my designers of these spaces is assuming that a garden is a place or thing. As any gardener knows, what's missing from this view is the sense of process. The noun garden only comes into being when it is also a verb."
I loved their emphasis on the experience of a garden as an ongoing process. So many designers and writers focus on the end result, which as all gardeners know, is never the end - it's a cycle.
Visit any gardener and you'll hear that they wish you'd come two months prior, or would come again in two weeks when the such and such will be in bloom, or "you'll have to forgive the Nepetas, they get so scraggly this time of year."
Gardens are ever-changing, and so much of our enjoyment comes from intimate fellowship with the plants and wildlife that give a landscape its LIFE!
Of course a random collection of plants, with no relationship to the surroundings or to each other, is obviously not a pleasing place to spend time. It's only when we use plants with respect and attention to their finer qualities, and place them in settings appropriate to their surroundings that we have a place that really moves and teaches us.
With that in mind, the Ogdens spend a wonderfully thorough amount of time on HOW to design with plants - how to view light, how to work with your natural surroundings or the things that make your region special; in short, how to design a garden when your primary consideration is the connection and composed beauty that a lovingly-planted landscape brings.
Then, throughout the book are exceptionally detailed lists of plants for different uses in the garden. These aren't your usual "flowers for shade" and "purple flowers" types of lists, and many of the plants are unusual varieties that you may not have heard of before, which gives us a lot of room to grow into this book.
Some of my favorite lists:
Deciduous Woody Plants with Precocious Flowers (flowers that arrive on bare wood)
Evening-Fragrant and Night-Fragrant Plants
Herbaceous Plants with Good-Looking Spent Flowers
Plants for Dry-Stack Stone Walls
Companions to Bold Succulents and Fiber Plants
I think you can tell by the lists and by the writing style that this is a book you'll return to time and time again. My copy is covered in sticky notes where I wanted to remember to come back and read more, or that I should refer to the list again soon.
If you're a beginning gardener, some of this may be the type of writing that you don't fully understand the first time through. That's OK. The writing style and advice are of such fine caliber that as you grow and learn, you'll find yourself developing an even greater appreciation for it, and you'll gain new insights on each reading.
If you're a landscape designer or particularly an architect, this book is absolutely required reading. The plant lists alone are worth far beyond the cover price, and the poetic and thoughtful text will give you new insights into how to work with the natural attributes of plants to create landscapes that honor region, architecture, and our human desire to connect with plants and nature.


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Finding dead web links with Linkchecker
Linkchecker grooms your site to uncover references to missing pages.
If you manage a big Internet site, you are probably familiar with the problem of dead links. An external page at the end of a link can easily go offline, and when a user clicks the link, the browser jumps headlong into a black hole. This problem can be difficult to catch, unless you plan to spend all your spare time testing links at your own website. If you're looking for a faster way to hunt for holes, try Linkchecker. The easiest way to install Linkchecker [1] is to use a prebuilt version. For RPM-based systems such as Suse or Fedora, an RPM package with the current version 3.3 and a source code archive is available from [2]. Users with Debian derivatives should check out the site at [3] or install Linkchecker by running apt-get install linkchecker.
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Mirantis to Refactor OpenStack Fuel for Kubernetes
The company is collaborating with Google and Intel to use Kubernetes as an engine for Fuel
Canonical Joins Document Foundation Advisory Board
The upcoming release of LibreOffice will be available as a snap package
SUSE Joins the Microsoft Test Drive Program
Customers can take a free test drive of SLES for HPC on the Azure Cloud
SiFive Launches a Line of Open Source Chips
San Francisco-based chip company announces their first fully open source chip platform.
Fedora 24 Released
The whole distro gets rebuilt on glibc 2.3
Canonical Announces Cross-Distro Support for Snaps
Ubuntu Vendor tries to solve app packaging and distribution problem across distributions.
ownCloud Forked
Founder of ownCloud launches the Nextcloud project.
HP Enterprise Unveils a Futuristic Computer
Will The Machine change the way future programmers think about memory?
CoreOS Announces Distributed Storage System
The new Torus distributed storage system is available under an open source license on GitHub
Google Beats Oracle in the Android Lawsuit
Juries decides Google's use of Java APIs Was Fair Use

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Chapter 9. Historical Necessity and Contingency
- Aviezer Tucker
Published Online: 6 MAR 2009
DOI: 10.1002/9781444304916.ch9
Copyright © 2009 Blackwell Publishing Ltd
Book Title
A Companion to the Philosophy of History and Historiography
Additional Information
How to Cite
Ben-Menahem, Y. (2008) Historical Necessity and Contingency, in A Companion to the Philosophy of History and Historiography (ed A. Tucker), Wiley-Blackwell, Oxford, UK. doi: 10.1002/9781444304916.ch9
Editor Information
Prague, Czech Republic
Publication History
- Published Online: 6 MAR 2009
- Published Print: 24 OCT 2008
Book Series:
ISBN Information
Print ISBN: 9781405149082
Online ISBN: 9781444304916
- Summary
- Chapter
- historical necessity and contingency;
- necessity and contingency as degrees of stability;
- necessity (contingency) and description;
- Cleopatra's nose and other category mistakes;
- emplotment;
- prophets of contingency
This chapter contains sections titled:
Necessity and Contingency as Degrees of Stability
Necessity (Contingency) and Description
Cleopatra's Nose and Other Category Mistakes
Making a Difference
Prophets of Contingency


text:
- Causes of Fatigue Slideshow Pictures
- Take the Sleep Quiz
- Foods That Help or Harm Your Sleep Slideshow Pictures
- Patient Comments: Narcolepsy - Treatments
- Patient Comments: Narcolepsy - Experience
- Patient Comments: Narcolepsy - Excessive Daytime Sleepiness
- Patient Comments: Narcolepsy - Hypnagogic Hallucinations
- Patient Comments: Narcolepsy - Muscle Control
- Find a local Sleep Specialist in your town
- Narcolepsy facts
- What is narcolepsy?
- How common is narcolepsy?
- What causes narcolepsy?
- What are the symptoms of narcolepsy?
- Excessive daytime sleepiness (EDS)
- Cataplexy
- Hypnagogic hallucinations
- Sleep paralysis
- Additional symptoms
- How is narcolepsy diagnosed?
- What is the treatment for narcolepsy?
- What specialists treat narcolepsy?
- What medications treat narcolepsy?
- Non-drug treatments
- What is the outcome (prognosis) for patients with narcolepsy?
- What's in the future for narcolepsy?
- For more information
Quick GuideSleep Disorders Pictures Slideshow: A Visual Guide to Sleeping Disorders
What is narcolepsy?
Narcolepsy is a chronic disease of the central nervous system. Excessive daytime sleepiness (EDS) is the main symptom and is present in 100% of patients with narcolepsy. Other primary symptoms of narcolepsy include:
- loss of muscle tone (cataplexy),
- distorted perceptions (hypnagogic hallucinations), and
- inability to move or talk (sleep paralysis).
Additional symptoms include disturbed nocturnal sleep and automatic behavior (patients carry out certain actions without conscious awareness). A 2014 study in the Journal of Sleep Medicine also reported that nightmares may be more prevalent in people with narcolepsy than in the general population. All the symptoms of narcolepsy may be present in various combinations and degrees of severity.
Narcolepsy usually begins in teenagers or young adults and affects both sexes equally. The first symptom of narcolepsy to appear is excessive daytime sleepiness, which may remain unrecognized for a long time in that it develops gradually over time. The other symptoms can follow excessive daytime sleepiness by months or years. Cataplexy may appear before symptoms of narcolepsy.
How common is narcolepsy?
The prevalence of narcolepsy is similar to that of Parkinson's disease and multiple sclerosis. In the United States, the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke estimates narcolepsy affects one in every 3,000 people.
Narcolepsy often remains undiagnosed or misdiagnosed for several years. This may occur because physicians do not consider the diagnosis of narcolepsy frequently enough. They may think of narcolepsy only in people who have the main symptom of excessive daytime sleepiness. Narcolepsy may not be considered in the evaluation of patients who come to doctors complaining of fatigue, tiredness, or problems with concentration, attention, memory, and performance, and other illnesses (seizures, mental illness, etc.)
What causes narcolepsy?
Advances have been made in the last few years in determining the cause of narcolepsy. The newest discovery has been the finding of abnormalities in the structure and function of a particular group of nerve cells, called hypocretin neurons, in the brains of patients with narcolepsy. These cells are located in a part of the brain called the hypothalamus and they normally secrete neurotransmitter substances (chemicals released by nerve cells to transmit messages to other cells) called hypocretins.
Abnormalities in the hypocretin system may be responsible for the daytime sleepiness and abnormal REM sleep found in narcolepsy. (See the section below on sleep laboratory tests for a discussion of REM sleep.)
Experiments in dogs and mice with narcolepsy suggest an abnormal hypocretin system as a cause for the development of their narcolepsy. People with narcolepsy have been found to have a markedly decreased number of hypocretin nerve cells in the brain. They also have a decreased level of hypocretins in the cerebrospinal fluid (the fluid that surrounds the brain and the spinal cord).
Narcolepsy is associated with a specific type of human leukocyte antigen (HLA). HLAs are genetically determined proteins on the surface of white blood cells. They are a part of the body's immune (defense) system. The finding of a very high HLA- association in narcolepsy led to the proposal that narcolepsy is an autoimmune disease, similar to other HLA-associated diseases such as multiple sclerosis and ankylosing spondylitis.
It is theorized that an autoimmune reaction causes the loss of nerve cells in the brain in patients with narcolepsy. The environment (for example, infection or trauma) might trigger an autoimmune reaction where normal brain cells are attacked by the body's own immune system. As a result, the neurons are damaged and ultimately destroyed, and they and their neurotransmitter chemicals disappear. Whether narcolepsy is an autoimmune disease remains to be proven.
The role of heredity in humans with narcolepsy is not completely understood. No consistent pattern of heredity has been recognized in families so far. It is estimated that relatives of patients with narcolepsy may have a higher predisposition to develop narcolepsy or sleep-related abnormalities, such as increased daytime sleepiness, increased REM sleep, or others. In dogs with narcolepsy, the disease is inherited in a predictable pattern. In these animals, the narcolepsy is caused by a mutation in a particular gene that is normally responsible for producing a receptor (binder) in the brain for the hypocretin neurotransmitter.
What are the symptoms of narcolepsy?
Symptoms of narcolepsy include (each of these are discussed in detail):
- excessive daytime sleepiness
- cataplexy
- hypnagogic hallucinations
- sleep paralysis
- disturbed nocturnal sleep
- automatic behavior
- other complaints such as blurred vision, double vision, or droopy eyelids
Excessive daytime sleepiness (EDS)
The main symptom of narcolepsy, excessive daytime sleepiness (EDS), causes the patient to tend to fall asleep easily. This can happen in relaxed situations and also at inappropriate times and places. Patients may fall asleep while watching TV, reading a book, driving, attending a meeting, or engaging in a conversation. The daytime sleepiness is present even after normal nighttime sleep. Patients may describe this symptom as being tired, fatigued, sleepy, feeling lazy, or having low energy.
Excessive daytime sleepiness is present throughout the day but the patient, with extreme effort, may be able to resist the sleepiness for some time. Finally, it becomes overwhelming and results in a sleep episode of varied duration (seconds to minutes). In addition to daytime sleepiness, repetitive, irresistible, and unintentional, sudden attacks of sleep may occur throughout the day. Excessive daytime sleepiness usually impairs a patient's functioning because it reduces motivation and vigilance, interferes with concentration and memory, and increases irritability.
Cataplexy is a sudden, temporary loss of muscle control in a person with narcolepsy. An attack of cataplexy usually is triggered by strong emotional reactions such as laughter, excitement, surprise, or anger. Factors that contribute to the attacks of cataplexy include physical fatigue, stress, and sleepiness.
Severe attacks of cataplexy may result in a complete physical collapse with a fall to the ground and risk of injury. Milder forms of cataplexy are more common. These involve regional muscle groups and result in symptoms such as a drooping head, sagging jaw, slurred speech, buckling of the knees, or weakness in the arms. This muscle weakness can be quite subtle. The patient is conscious but usually unable to speak.
Cataplectic attacks may last from a few seconds to several minutes. They may vary from a few per year to numerous attacks per day that could disable the patient. Cataplexy is present in nearly 75% of patients with narcolepsy, according to the National Institutes of Health. The onset of cataplexy may coincide with the onset of excessive daytime sleepiness, but cataplexy often develops years later, so the absence of cataplexy should not rule out the diagnosis of narcolepsy.
Other symptoms may seem unrelated, but may accompany cataplexy. A study in the American Academy of Sleep Medicine also found that nearly one-quarter of patients with narcolepsy/cataplexy reported binge eating at least twice a week.


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So you've chosen the perfect holiday destination and have a rough idea of when you want to go. You're next step is to figure out roughly how much it's going to cost you and start saving that all important money.
This how to budget for travel guide will help you work out how much money you will need for every aspect of your holiday. From the big ticket items like airfares right down to the change in your pocket to pay for street snacks and subway tickets, I'll touch on every expense you might have and help make the experience a little less daunting.
Budgeting Early is Important
If you don't figure out how much this holiday is going to cost you right from the start, you won't know if you can afford it in the time frame you are hoping for. You don't want to get your hopes up or put a deposit on an airfare only to discover that you can't afford to stay in a standard of accommodation you're hoping too or that you can't afford to eat for most of the trip.
Having a budget in the initial planning phase also stops you from having a massive blowout and spending way more than you originally expected. The budget is something you will refer to and update regularly through the planning process and having it from the start gives you the bones of the holiday from which you can build on.
Where to Start
Start with a simple spreadsheet. It doesn't have to be anything complicated, just a row for each type of expense and a column each for your budget, actual spend and difference so you can see how you're tracking over time. I also like to add a notes column to the end of each item so I can make a note of anything important for example, the row for breakfast, in the note column I would type how many breakfasts I have budgeted for and at what cost per day.
I've created a sample budget spreadsheet for you complete with formulas that do all of the calculations for you. You can add and remove whatever rows are appropriate for your holiday. Or, if you're comfortable with spreadsheets, try creating your own.
Travel Budget Sample Spreadsheet
Working out the Costs
Once you have your spreadsheet ready to go you can start researching costs and add them in as you go. You don't need to make any firm decisions about which suppliers you want to use or what you want to see and do just yet, you will just be taking a look around to get a rough idea of cost. Let me break it down for you by going through each type of expense and how you can go about researching it.
There are a few different types of transport expenses you might encounter on your holiday, airfares, car hire, gas, rail/bus tickets, transfers or public transport. You need to get to your destination somehow. Even if it's in your own car driving just a few hours away, you will encounter the cost of gas.
Start your research by finding out what types of transport you will need on this holiday. Obviously, if you're travelling overseas or across a large country or continent you will need to start with airfares. My suggestion is start with a website like Expedia or Skyscanner. Input your destination, approximate dates, number of travellers and press search. This will bring up a bunch of different results from different airlines at different times of day, some via other destinations. You don't need to go into specifics at this stage, just scroll through and average the costs.
Next is car hire. I like to use VroomVroomVroom to do my research, so head over there and input your dates, pick up and drop off location(s) and any other specifications you might like including GPS, child seat etc. Like with the airfare search, you will get a bunch of results from different car hire companies and different types of vehicles available. Have a quick think about the size of car you might like and look at the different prices for each car company. Note that there is a price different between automatic and manual car rentals. Do an average and add this price to your budget.
If you're planning on travelling by rail or bus during your trip you will need to find an average cost for this also. Unlike with airfares and car hire there isn't one website that covers the whole world for rail and bus tickets so you're going to have to do a bit more looking around for this one. Do an internet search, for example, "rail or bus tickets Europe". Depending on which country you're from will depend on the results but usually you will find a reputable website on the first page of results that will provide you with costings. At this point you will also need to look into whether a pass or individual tickets are cheapest for you. Once you have an average cost, add it to the spreadsheet.
Transfers are next. While these are generally minor costs, they do eventually add up when combined with the other costs and help to make your budget more accurate. Do an internet search again, this time for the airport you will be transferring to/from. Most major airports will have a section on their website called something like "getting to/from the airport". Click on that, and it is here that you are likely to find which airport transfer companies operate at this airport and sometimes this page may even have costs on it. Add this cost to the spreadsheet and remember to factor in return transfers if needed.
Finally public transport. This is going to be the hardest to determine and will depend on where you are travelling to. If you're headed to a big city then this cost will be higher than if you're visiting a smaller city or town where you'll likely get around on foot. When I am visiting a big city I usually budget for around two trips on public transport per day. My go to reference when looking for public transport costs is Nomadic Matt's destination and city guides. He does a great job of summarising the cost of public transport in each city he has profiled.
This is something that not all of you will need to think about. If you are planning on going on an organised, multi-day guided tour, then this will be one of your biggest holiday costs. You'll need to know how much it's going to cost and if there are any additional fees like single supplement, entrance fees not included in the tour price or a trip kitty to be paid on arrival.
If you are planning on taking a tour, chances are you already know which one you want to do, therefore just head to the company's webpage, note the cost for the dates you are thinking of travelling on and look through the trips dossier and additional notes to find out what, if any, the additional costs are. Note them down on the spreadsheet.
If however you're unsure about which particular tour or company you want to go with then a website like TourRadar is a great place to start looking and to get an idea of average prices for the destination, length of time and type of tour you are after. Do a tour comparison and add the average cost, or exact cost, if you find something you love, to the spreadsheet.
The next biggest expense for your holiday is likely to be your accommodation. The first thing you need to do is determine what style of accommodation you want for this holiday. There are a number of different styles ranging from top of the range luxury hotels and resorts, modest run of the mill hotels and chains, apartment rental, budget hotels, B&B's, hostels or even free accommodation like coachsurfing. Here are my go to resources for each of these accommodation styles:
- Expedia – You can find just about every type of accommodation on Expedia these days including luxury hotels and resorts, hotels in all price ranges, B&B's and select hostels.
- HostelWorld – As the name suggests, you will find hostels on this website along with budget hotels and B&B's.
- Airbnb – Unique apartments and rooms all over the world.
- Couchsurfing – Exactly as the name says, find a couch, usually free, to sleep on in someone's home. These aren't always couches and sometime can be a bed or a whole room.
Once you have done your research on one of the above websites you should be able to find an average price from the options available and then add it to the spreadsheet. If during your holiday you will be staying in more than one location, I suggest having a different row on the spreadsheet for each one to keep a better track of each cost. Some destinations are more expensive or cheaper than others.
Sights & Activities
This is where a good guide book will come in handy. I always reference my trusty Lonely Planet at this point to get prices for the key attractions in the place I am visiting. It's quick and easy and you don't need to make any firm decisions at this point about what exactly you're going to see and do, this is just to get an idea of price.
How much you plan to spend on sights and activities will be up to you and the destination you are visiting. If you're spending nights in an all-inclusive resort where you plan to relax and do nothing then this cost will likely be zero. However, if you're visiting a big city, say Paris or New York, where a lot of the city's must see attractions charge an entrance fee then the costs of these will add up.
Nomadic Matt's destination and city guides are also great resources for finding average costs for sights in most of the major destinations around the world.
At this point you also need to think about half and full day tours you might like to do. Check out the Viator and Urban Adventures websites for tours that might be of interest to you.
Once you have an idea of prices for sights, activities and tours you can determine an average price and add that to the spreadsheet.
Food & Drink
Working out how much you're going to spend on food and drink will depend on what type of food experience you want to have. If you love street food, will happily cook your own meals from time to time in the hostel and drink little or at backpacker's bars with great drink specials then your budget will be very low. If, however you're after fine dining experiences and lavish cocktails in flashy bars then your food budget will be high.
Our food and drink budget is usually somewhere in between. We like to make a simple breakfast in the hostel (when staying in hostels), have a quick simple lunch on the go and finish the day off with a reasonable meal in a nice sit down restaurant. We don't snack a lot throughout the day but might have an ice cream on a hot day or the odd street snack if we can't help ourselves. We also don't drink a lot when travelling as we like to have a clear head and make the most of our time but this really depends on the location and who we are travelling with. As an example, for Europe our average daily food budget for two people was around €70. This might seem a lot to budget travellers and too little to those who travel more up market.
It is also going to depend on which part of the world you are in. Most of SE Asia will cost you a small fraction of the price of most other regions and countries in the world. Australia is notorious for being expensive for food and parts of Europe and South America are up there too.
Your guide book will give you a good indication on prices as will Nomadic Matt's destination and city guides.
How much you want to spend on souvenirs and shopping when you travel is entirely up to you. If there is something specific that you want to purchase in your destination then do a bit of research about how much it costs. I usually don't budget for these expenses until closer to my holiday when I know how much money I have saved. If I have saved really well and have more than I need to cover the important expenses then I might allow myself more. Really, it's up to you. Just make sure that these expenses make it on your budget at some point before you leave.
Other Expenses
The biggest major expense you will have in this section is travel insurance. The cost of this is going to depend on where you are travelling to, from and what level of cover you are comfortable with. There is no one worldwide insurance comparison website but each country should have their own. For example, people living in Australia would use Compare the Market to find the best price. To find your best options do an internet search with the phrase "compare travel insurance" and usually one of the first few results will be a reputable website based in your country.
Purchasing luggage, if this is your first trip, may also be a cost you need to factor in. If you've after a backpack check out your local adventure stores and for suitcases try a department store. Online research is also a great idea to get an average price.
I highly recommend having a good guide book or eBook with you before and during your travels. I personally love Lonely Planet but there are others that provide similar information for about the same prices.
Bringing it All Together
By now your spreadsheet will be looking very full and you should have an idea of a total average budget. This of course can be tweaked at this stage if you feel it is too high or (very rarely) too low. You'll have to really think about what is most important to you when you travel. There are ways of reducing your budget with a bit of creative thinking. Here are a few of my tips:
- To reduce airfares consider budget airlines or indirect flights. Also keep an eye out for sales is a good idea.
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- Mix it up a bit with your accommodation, especially on a long trip. If you like sleeping in luxury try adding a few nights in a cheaper form of accommodation like an apartment.
- Research free activities and events going in your destination and look up museums websites for days they offer free entry.
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Now it's time to start saving!
Disclaimer: There are affiliate links in this post that will earn me a small commission when you click and purchase at no extra cost to you. By using these links to make a purchase you are supporting us and all of the hard work that goes into The Trusted Traveller.
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What style of traveller are you? Budget, luxury or somewhere in between? Or does your budget vary from trip to trip?
Let us know using the comments section below or join us on social media to start a conversation.
Thanks for reading and we hope you enjoyed this post.


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Asher Brown's Parents On CNN; DA Getting Involved
The Asher Brown story went national last night, as CNN's Anderson Cooper interviewed the parents of the Cy-Fair middle schooler who committed suicide.
The parents appeared with their attorney and said they had made "many trips" to the school, and numerous calls and e-mails, to complain about bullying.
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None of that will bring back a tortured 13-year-old kid who just wanted to enjoy life, but it will possibly bring answers to some perplexing questions.
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|Message view
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|"Peeter Piegaze" <peeter.pieg...@day.com>
|Re: A question about versioning when OnParentVersion=VERSION
|Mon, 17 Sep 2007 15:08:05 GMT
Hi Alexander, Yes, this is the intended behavior. A subnode with OPV=VERSION is meant to be an independently versionable item, not closely bound to the parent node. What you probably want to do is make your subnode OPV=COPY. This means that the subnode will be copied as part of the frozen state of the parent node, then when the parent node is restored the subnode is restored with it. Cheers, Peeter On 9/17/07, Alexander Nesterov <firstname.lastname@example.com> wrote: > Hi, > > I don't fully understand how versioning works for nodes that have > OnParentVersion attributes set to "VERSION". I have a versionable > parent node with a child node versioned by it's own. When a new > version of parent node is created it has a subnode representing the > child node. The problem is that the child node has only > jcr:childVersionHistory property which is a reference to it's version > history but not a references to any particular version. Why the > reference to version history but not to the particular version of > child node is created? Without information about particular version > it's impossible to revert parent and child nodes in future to the > exact current state. Maybe i don't understand the design of versioning > in JCR? > > TIA, > -- > Alexander Nesterov > -- Peeter Piegaze Day Software Suite 331 67 Mowat Avenue Toronto Ontario M6K 3E3 Canada office +1 416 987 5720 mobile +1 647 205 2403 fax +1 866 719 3988
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Talk:Apocrypha/Archive 1
|This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
|Archive 1
|Archive 2
"Protestants use the term in a more general/more restricted sense" I changed it to 'more books', which might cover it. The idea that Protestants separate Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha is true only in departments of religion, I fear. --Michael Tinkler
No, not more books, but to a different set of books. -- Simon J Kissane
- 1 Council of Trent
- 2 New Talk
- 3 Old talk
- 4 Unanswered questions
- 5 Literary apocrypha
- 6 Non Judeo-Christian Apocrypha
- 7 Questionable edits
- 8 Problems with Four Criteria for Canonicity
- 9 WikiProject
- 11 Huh?
- 12 2 Maccabees 12:46
- 13 Proposed merge with deuterocanonical books
- 14 Proposed merge with Books of the Apocrypha
- 15 Latter Day Saint views
- 16 Apocrypha Books of the Bible list
- 17 Bad writing style
- 18 Greek
- 19 Canon confusion
- 20 Proposed Split
- 21 Books of the...
- 22 Apocrypha in modern editions
- 23 Major split
- 24 Parenthetical citations
- 25 Apocrypha - apocalypse
- 26 The case against the Apocrypha is overstated
- 27 Heterodoxy
- 28 Vagueness of definition - application to biblical apocrypha
- 29 Further suggestion for article split - Apocryphal vs. Apocrypha
- 30 Intro is confusing
- 31 Assessment comment
Council of Trent
The page says "In 1546 the Catholic Council of Trent adopted the canon of Augustine." The Catholic cannon was first proposed in 382 by Pope Damasus, followed by ratification by the Councils of Hippo (393 A.D.) and Carthage (397 A.D.). Pope St. Innocent approved the 73 book canon and closed the cannon of the Bible. Samuraidragon 20:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
New Talk
There is a lot of information found in this article, some of it quite esoteric. I added (yet another) section near the top of this article to give greater promenance to what I think most people will be looking for when they are directed here: the books found in the Apocrypha section of a modern printed Bible. -rwflammang
Old talk
Article says:
- Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches regard the apocrypha as deuterocanonical, belonging to second-level biblical canon; they are deemed to be divinely inspired, but are of a lesser authority than the rest of the Bible.
I'd like to see some evidence that they view them as being of lesser authority. AFAIK, Catholics at least view them as equally authoritative, although they recognize they have been subject to more dispute/controversy over the years than most books have. Secondly, I detect in this article Protestant bias, especially in regard to its frequent use of Protestant terminology without its qualification as Protestant. -- SJK
Ok, this will be addressed. I don't think that there is a Protestant bias, as the person who wrote that paragraph was Jewish (me), and regards the apocrypha as interesting Jewish historical and religious literature, but not divinely inspired. I had read a bit on this topic, including a little material written by clergy in the Catholic Chruch, but it still it could be in error. I will check this issue out in the New Catholic Encyclopaedia. RK
RK: The terminology you are using, at least among Christians, is used mainly by Protestants, not Catholics. As for Jews, I don't know (but since they agree with Protestants on the OT/Tanakh canon, it would not suprise me if they also use Protestant terminology) -- SJK
Would something like Epistle to the Laodiceans go here? --Alan Millar
No. None of the contested works (or parts thereof) is in the New Testament. While I realize that the Wiki article needs to be neutral, as a Catholic I was taught that Protestants dropped books and parts of books that "really were" in the Bible. I'm not trying to start a fight, but rather to question the notion that Catholics find these books of lesser quality. In fact, some of the dropped passages support Catholic interpretations of Christianity better than Protestant versions, so it would make no sense for Catholics to downgrade them. (Notably Luther's dislike of the following quote: 'It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' (2 Macc. 12:46). Catholics who call those works 'deuterocanonical' are not so much downgrading them from 'canonical' as upgrading them from 'apocryphal'. Church history is full of quotes from these works, which were included in the Septuagint and Vulgate. --DGJ According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm) the term Deutero is not at all derogatory, and these books are considered just as canonical as the rest. (I have just made some changes to the Deuterocanonical books page to clarify this as well.
- Actually, both the Orthodox and the Catholic Church are party to this; in fact, "dropping" some material as non-canonical or even deuterocanonical started even before the Schizm between the two Churches (before there ever was a Holy and an Eastern Roman Empire [the latter commonly referred by the misnomer "Byzantine Empire"], when the Roman Empire moved its capital to the Asia Minor). The only problem here is that, while history clearly shows that various versions of the same material were plodded through to pick the one thought to be the most correct (I don't suggest they were not true - that's an entirely different topic, and one that lies a lot on speculation and has little to do with an encyclopedia, since it's mostly POV), but all 3 major churches insist that this is not as much the truth, despite the obvious facts. -- RaspK FOG, 23:09, 29 July 2007
Many of the apocryphal books listed are shown as nonexistent articles, but I think I may have found them. I don't know enough about this topic to actually change the links, but FWTW here they are: Acts of the Apostles, Book of Revelation.
- Acts of the Apostles and Book of Revelation (the Apocalypse) are not deuterocanonical, but rather canonical. I think that at least one of them was the subject of a political compromise when the Catholic bishops drew up the canon list at one of those councils -- I think (or at least have read) that there was some political bartering about which books to stick in as canon, and the east and west traded off a bit. But in any case, they both got in, and are not the subject of this article (Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical).
The term "Deuterocanonical" is used with extreme caution by Catholic theologians as it suggests that there are Protocanonical books and Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament, when there is absolutely no such thing outside of hypothetical consideration. It is important to note that these theologians also had absolutely no authority to canonize the bible. These terms are nothing more than personal opinions. Martin Luther was the first Christian outside of the RCC to claim that he had the authority to canonize the bible when he rejected books of the OT as a solution to his own personal problem of dealing with purgatorial subjects when it was shown to him in his own Vulgate. He concluded that a post-crucifixion Jewish canon semi-fixed at the Council of Jamnia in 90AD would fit the bill and went with it. I believe most Orthodox Jews today would point out that the Jewish Canon is not closed because the messiah has yet to come. The actual bible canon was fixed by the RCC in 397 at the III Council of Carthage. [Cpt|Kirk 17:58, 23 March 2006 (UTC)]
Sorry. Luther was not the first, he followed the example of St Jerome. Sorry, Luther was not outside the RCC, he was a Catholic monk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 18:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Unanswered questions
The article mentions that Martin Luther dropped some (or all, I forget) of the Deuterocanonical/Apocryphal books, but, didn't he also drop the canonical epistle of James, so perhaps quoting him introduces some complication (the canon of Martin Luther) that belongs elsewhere ?
Why is Book of Enoch among NT Apocrypha? Why aren't apocalypses among the apocrypha? for example Apocalypse of Peter?
>> Enoch is part of the OT.
Luther created the 'Apocrypha' by moving books from the Old Testament into this newly created section. He also divided up the New Testament by creating a section for 'The Capital Books' and then a lesser section of the NT called the 'Oecolampadius' for Rev., Jas., Jude, 1 Pet, and 2-3 John. The Book of Enoch was not found in the LXX (Septuagint) and so did not appear in the Christian OT. The Apocalypse of Peter is apocrypha, but not Protestant apocrypha but Catholic apocrypha which can be found in a larger group of Early Christian Writings (200+ books). [Cpt|Kirk 18:05, 23 March 2006 (UTC)]
>> Enoch is in the Christian OT in Ethiopia.
Literary apocrypha
Is there a less obscure example of literary apocrypha than "the Ossianic cycle invented by James Macpherson" which doesn't even have an article? Perhaps some classical Greek work or something? -- Beland 02:12, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- This section absolutely made no sense, so I removed it. It doesn't even use a correct terminology. And it really has no business in a religion page. It should be disambiguated if someone wants a new section on non-religious pseudepigrapha. Wjhonson 07:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
- I think the page should mention "apocrypha" used as a literary device - it shouldn't be just a "religion page", but encyclopedia page. If you want example, Karel Capek has one. 188.8.131.52 08:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Non Judeo-Christian Apocrypha
The introduction to the article used to imply that "Apocrypha" was a general theological term, but the only content is about Judeo-Christian beliefs.
It would be interesting to include or link to non Judeo-Christian Apocrypha, if anyone knows of any. In the meantime, I've made the intro more specific.
-- Beland 04:28, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I have serious doubts that "Apocrypha" is a general term. I'm fairly widely read in religions and have never come across the term outside the Biblical environment. Wjhonson 07:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
- apocrypha-Writings or statements of questionable authorship or authenticity. Honestly it seems like there should be a Jewish apocrypha and Christian Apocrypha for alot if this. an example of none religious apocrypha would be certain Platonic dialogues of questionable authorship. Syzergy 09:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Questionable edits
In refactoring the Old Testament section, I made the particularly questionable edits below, which others should review:
>> Not all books from the Septuagint are accepted by the Roman Catholic church as canonical. The Prayer of Manasseh, 3 Esdras, 4 Esdras, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, and Psalm 151 are not considered to be canonical, and are not included in the canon, although some Protestants include these books in the Apocrypha. In the Vulgate, these books are found in an appendix. <<
I couldn't find these in the appendix to the Vulgate on the Vatican's site, but it was in Latin, so I had a hard time deciphering it. Other than that, this paragraph is mostly redundant, so I dropped it.
- The Nova Vulgata at the Vatican site is one of the modern editions that omit the Apocrypha. The old Clementine Vulgate contained them. -rwflammang 13 April 2006
>> Among the Oriental Orthodox, all the deuterocanonical books are accepted <<
I disambiguated this from "the Apocrypha is accepted", but I am not sure that is what was meant. The article on "Oriental Orthodox" doesn't help.
-- Beland 04:27, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
More questions:
- When the Jewish section says "apocrypha", does it refer only to the Apocrypha of the Old Testament, or does it include the entirety of the New Testament, too? Is there a better term with which to disambiguate, perhaps a Hebrew one?
- Is it the apocrypha, and it is capitalized or not? Is there a semantic difference?
- The word apocryphon is a common noun, plural apocrypha. "The apocrypha" refers to a given set of apocrypha, e.g., those apocrypha found in a given edition of the Bible. When those apocrypha are gathered into a dedicated section, the section title is usually capitalized: "the Apocrypha", following the style of "the Old Testament" and "the New Testament".
- The word apocryphon is rarely used in the singular, because there is no such thing as a generic apocryphon, only particular apocrypha, which are typically referred to by name, e.g., the Proto-evangelion of James, or the Prayer of Manasseh. Rwflammang 20 April 2006
-- Beland 05:35, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Problems with Four Criteria for Canonicity
The "Four Criteria for Canonicity" section seems self-contradictory. If these criteria have not been applied consistently and objectively (which they clearly have not), then other factors must also have influenced historical decisions on canonical status. So why is there this neat and tidy list?
Is there some historical group which has claimed these principles as ideals? If so they should be identified and some edits made to preserve NPOV.
The article shouldn't just admonish authors of book-specific articles to do good book-specific histories. It should link to a good general history or collection of histories of canonicalization. The rest of the article tries to present some of that history, but it's terribly incomplete and rather choppy. I'm not sure such a history exists on the Wikipedia yet.
-- Beland 05:36, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Linking to "Biblican canon" for now. -- Beland 05:47, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The catholic church applied the criteria when selecting cannon, I believe using a devils advocate and all. They held trial over them, which is a most interesting concept... kinda reminds me of Sanhedrin ... only with more authority placed on final decisions. It's not as if either catholic or protestant hold the book of judas in high respect, or give it further review ever couple years. On another note, in the jewish tradition those books would not be considered Tanach, but rather Kabbala. Writing which is dangerous in the wrong hands, heretical and important enough to keep around and study. Modern rabinical juidism doesn't have a universal body holding sway over it (reform,conservative,ultra conservative,traditionalist,orthodox,ultra orthodox,hasids...which are like jehovah's witnesses for jews,ect). So it's easy to understand why the author of this article couldn't show the sensitivity required when dealing with the subject. Hence the possible offence which would even get this article questioned to the point of sharp debate. One must apply the same caution when dealing with another mans religion that he would with said mans wife. He must be gentle and without tongue.
Based on a suggestion in Wikipedia:Pages needing attention, I have started the skeleton of a WikiProject to try to cut down on the overlap between the various presentations of the canon. I think that a lot of people working here will want input on this. Feel free! Mpolo 13:23, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
This is an inappropriate article for the BCE/CE change - do any of the regular editors object to restoring AD/BC? Trödel|talk 01:36, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
As a point of neutrality, the contemporary BCE/CE nomenclature is, I believe, appropriate. Wikipedia terminology should reflect contemporary usage rather than obsolete symantic forms. --RubberNeckHawaii 21:01, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
- The so-called "obsolete" forms are still the most used, and therefore the most current. Even the very idea that this year is 2005 is influenced by Christianity, so the BCE/CE designation fails to be neutral, as well. It only succeeds in being more politically correct. —Preost talk contribs 04:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
What exactly is this trying to say?
- The inability of Christians to use in controversy with Jews books that the latter did not accept as divinely inspired was one reason why some attributed lesser authority to these books.
Attempted rewrite:
- Some Christians attributed less authority to books that Jews did not accept as divinely inspired.
Did I get the meaning right? Jpatokal 11:48, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
>>The modern equivalent term to the ancient "apocrypha" would be "top secret government documents". . . . (Their not being mentioned in the >>public catalogue would indicate their being accessible only to government agents having a "top secret" security-clearance.)
This seems both unsupported and out of place in the article. Suggest expanding with citations and moving to its own subsection of this article.
126.96.36.199 (talk) 16:13, 13 August 2009 (UTC) InterestedReader
2 Maccabees 12:46
especially where 2 Maccabees speaks, by implication, of purgatory: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." (12:46).
Is this a translation issue? The NAB says: "Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin." [1] -- Essjay · Talk 06:24, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
- In either translation, the meaning is that the souls of the dead can be loosed/freed from sins by the actions of the living -- thus, by performing acts of contrition (such as buying indulgences), a dead person's soul can be moved to a better condition. In other words, not all torment is eternal hellfire, and so there must be a purgatory. --grant 12:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Proposed merge with deuterocanonical books
- Do no merge...the two are distinct. However, coordination should occur so that content is not overly duplicated and assertions in each article are not contradictory. --Dpr 02:37, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
- No merge vote Agree that they are distinct and that they overlap in some cases, but are important to keep seperate as Apocrypha encompasses much more than duetercanonical books. Also, there is a protestant/catholic connotation that is important to note between the terms.
- Do not merge - Apocrypha has a far more comprehensive definition than "deterocanonical," including many books that the main religious denominations considered without accepting or never really considered at all. Yahnatan 18:42, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Proposed merge with Books of the Apocrypha
There's an overlap of information between the two articles. Since the Apocrypha article is quite long, maybe the details of the traditional OT Apocryphal books could be moved to the Books of the Apocrypha? Saint Midge 06:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
- Books of the Apocrypha added nothing of substance to the topic, and there's no point in separating the material out from this article to another article with virtually the same title. I changed the other article to a redirect, and I'm removing the merge tag from this one. There was really nothing there to be merged here. —Preost talk contribs 14:22, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Latter Day Saint views
The section titled "Latter Day Saint views", describes LDS views on apocrypha as previously described.
Concerning the paragraph in this section beging with "Catholics and Protestants": Catholic and Protestant views of The Book of Mormon, don't quite belong in this secton of this article. Yet I tried to keep the most relevant ideas see bottom of entry. On a side note, the veracity of any scripture is rarely without one form of controversy or another.
Also, my fellow Mormons, are apocryphal texts only to be revealed before the second coming? Not after or durring? I generalized the sentence to allow for this.
Here's what I did
- Latter Day Saints, and most Mormon sects in the wider sense, believe the Book of Mormon to be of apocryphal (hidden) origin. However in popular mormon culture the Book of Mormon is not considered part of The Apocrypha as such. It is also believed that more hidden texts will yet come to light.
Sorry if I didn't sign in before I made the article change. If this is deemed appropriate, just remove this very discussion entry sometime. --Brad 06:52, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
- I made some changes - the connotation just didn't sit right that the BoM is apocryphal, but liked the ideas. So, I made changes. -Visorstuff 17:25, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Apocrypha Books of the Bible list
Could we get a list like Books of the Bible for the Apocrypha? Maybey at the (now redirected) Books of the Apocrypha. Sincerely, J. D. Redding
Bad writing style
From Apocrypha in Judaism through a large portion of the rest of the article, it reads more like, to be honest, a bad novel than Wikipedia. It relies overly much on elaborate prose and a storytelling angle - this is an encylopedia, and beginning at this point, the article, stylistically, becomes distinctly un-encylopedic. The writing quality would be decent for, example, a high school essay on the Apocrypha, but it is not sufficient for Wikipedia, due to disorganization. Beginning with Apocrypha in Christianity, the article begins bordering on breaking NPOV - while it's possible to read the whole thing and come away with a sense of NPOV, I had to brush aside my first interpretations of the section to do so - not something which should be present. Also, "We have remarked above..." breaks encylopedic style as well - the encylopedia is not a We. It's not even an I, or an It. Similar effect could be gotten by saying 'As shown above...' or equivalent, and similar errors show up in several places later in the article. There's also too much transition between subsections - if you're going to place a subsection header, treat the contents of it as independent of the other subsections. This article shouldn't run on chronological order - at least not in a storytelling sense. The only significant problem with this article is a large stylistic break. Go read other wiki articles (preferrably those which are held to be of high quality, such as the Featured Articles) and take note of the stylistic decisions they make. The elaborate prose and bad style need to be eliminated. In fact, the first parts of the article - up until Apocrypha in Judaism - is quality in style and substance. I'm not qualified to make the edits this article needs (or else I would do it myself) but I felt like this was a nastier bit of stylistic break than usual so I have no choice but to comment. Rarr 06:18, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I think the article needs a re-write as well. Its too messy at the moment for me to be all that willing to approach it though, I might have a go at it when I've got a really clear head and I'm in a really good mood and don't mind getting annoyed by the mess that its in, but that isn't today. Looking at it it looks like parts of the article come from some ancient and out of date encyclopedia (e.g. Encyclopedia Brittania 1911) - one that doesn't know about the discoveries at Nag Hammadi for example. Clinkophonist 21:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
- This article is simply packed with nonsense. I'm starting to clean it up but it's going to take some time. Wjhonson 07:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
- The 1911 edition of the Britannica is where the nonsense comes from. To be honest, it looks to me like about all we can do is erase the 1911 junk completely and call for expert attentions. If anybody has a better alternative I'm certainly open to it, but this article irritates me more every time I come back and look at it. Once we have a decent consensus feel free to give it the lobotomy it needs. In the meantime I'm tossing an expert attention tag onto it. Rarr 02:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- Hi, just a note that I agree with the consensus. I'm copy-editing material and making some stylistic changes to update the language. I studied the apocrypha as an undergrad (religious studies), so I'm fairly comfortable with the subject material--Marysunshine 04:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I've reworded content up to the "Cultural impact" subhead, adding dates to the Bible versions, removing old-fashioned language, and restructuring a few paragraphs within sections to improve the flow.--Marysunshine 04:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
- You'll be my hero if you can take on anything past there. Rarr 01:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I just did some work on "Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha in Judaism." My edits were mostly to clarify what information was already there, and eliminate antiquities, etc. Some of that material needs to be cited, however, and it certainly could be added upon (especially the "psuedepigraphia" -- we bring it up tantalizingly in the section's title, then proceed to ignore it completely). rwflammang might be able to help with this, judging on his/her previous helpful edits. There are still some holes that need to be patched up by someone who knows the subject better than I do.--Marysunshine 21:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
The are a few passages of NT Greek left untranslated throughout the article. I'm not proficient enough at Greek to translate them, but it needs doing. I can provide a transliteration if needed, although I'm not sure if it would be appropriate. Any thoughts? Daniel (☎) 20:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if your offer still stands, but please do! That would help immensely. --Marysunshine 18:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- I might do some of it; I am Greek and, as all Greeks are in Junior High and High School, have been taught Ancient Greek too. -- RaspK FOG 23:15, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Canon confusion
Seems to me many of the controversial statements in this article could be better expounded upon in the article Biblical canon. Although the Apocrypha are obviously related to the issue of the canon, I'd like to see this article focus more on the history and content of the books themselves and less on the question of their canonicity, which belongs in the article Biblical canon. -rwflammang 13 April 2006
- That seems sensible, it might make the article neater that way. Clinkophonist 20:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed, but before we move any content we should convert it to the proper style. Moving the mass of century-old encylopedia ramblings straight into Biblical canon will just make both articles a mess. Rarr 20:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Proposed Split
I think the split Clinkophonist proposed is a good idea in general, but before we do something like that, we have to clean this thing up. Rarr 00:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Books of the...
Wouldn't it make more sense for Books of the Apocrypha to redirect to Books of the Bible instead of to here? If they're looking for the list of books, the table there will be much more helpful. /blahedo (t) 22:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- I concur. Rwflammang 14:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Apocrypha in modern editions
This section currently reads:
- The first King James Bible published without the Apocrypha appeared in 1640. By 1826, the British and Foreign Bible Society decided to refuse to distribute Bibles containing the Apocrypha. Since then most modern editions of the Bible, even most modern re-printings of the King James, Vulgate, and Douay-Rheims versions, omit the Apocrypha section. This trend reflects the increasing importance of dogmatism relative to tradition in modern Christianity.
- There are some exceptions to this trend, however. Some editions of the Revised Standard Version of the King James Bible include not only the Apocrypha listed above, but also the third and fourth books of the Maccabees, and Psalm 151. The Stuttgart edition of the Vulgate (the printed edition, not most of the on-line editions) contains the Clementine Apocrypha as well as the Epistle to the Laodiceans and Psalm 151.
I can't tell if this is Protestant-centric or just wrong; the Vulgate is in Latin and Douay-Rheims in English, but both are Catholic—thus they don't have a section labelled "Apocrypha", but do include all that material. It is at least misleading, and it makes me wonder about the accuracy of the second paragraph as well. /blahedo (t) 05:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- The 16th century editions of both the Douay Bible and the Clementine Vulgate did have an appendix labelled Apocrypha; it contained three books: The Prayer of Manasses, 3 Esdras, and 4 Esdras. See Books of the Latin Vulgate for details. These books are omitted from practically all Catholic bibles today; even reprints of the Douay and the Vulgate. Some Protestant bibles, those with Apocrypha sections, still contain them. This is a simple statement of fact, not of bias.
Before King James
From the Holy Bible containing The Authorized Editon of The New Testament, A.D. 1611 and The Revised Version of A.D. 1881, Arranged in Parallel Columns; with Complete Concordance, Embracing every passage of Scripture in the Largest Edition, Aprocrypha and Psalms. Printed by O. A. Browning & CO Toledo, OH Copyright 1872 to 1885 with the Library of Congress.
The Apocrypha Books Included in this edition are
- I. Esdras hath chapters
- II. Esdras
- Torbit
- Judith
- The Rest of Ester
- Wisdom
- Ecclesiasticus
- Barugh, with the Epistle of Jeremiah
- The Songs of the Three Children
- The Story of Susanna
- The Idol Bell
- The Dragon
- The Prayer of Manassas
- I. Maccabees
- II. Maccabees
Major split
Every time I went at trying to clean up the main article, I found myself at a loss as to where even to start. So I took a deep breath, figured out what the major fault lines were, and split the article. I created Jewish apocrypha and Biblical apocrypha, and New Testament apocrypha already existed but I'm inclined to switch it to Christian apocrypha though I haven't done that yet.
Both new articles contain considerable material from the original article, and not contiguous chunks, either; this should hopefully make it a lot easier to spot duplicate or contradictory information and merge or reconcile as appropriate. The split is far from a done deal—a lot of cleanup work is still required. Among other things, not all the info in the sections of this page is contained in the "main article" that they refer to, which should be fixed. And the references I did nothing with, so some of the refs on this page should be farmed out to the subpages.
I'll keep working on this, but I wanted to let any watchers know what was going on first. Happy editing! /blahedo (t) 02:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think that this split shows a lot of promise. But I am not happy to see comments about the Biblical canon showing up in odd places in the article Biblical apocrypha. E.g., the comment about the Eastern Orthodox canon in Modern Editions seems off topic. It seems to me that the tendency to insert opinions about the Biblical canon is inevitably controversial, invites long off-topic threads as prots and caths continue to attempt to have the last word, and pulls attention away from the topic at hand, which is the Apocrypha. There is already an article for this: Biblical canon. Do we really need another article for the exact same topic? Rwflammang 13:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Not at all. I made very little editorial judgement during the split, and if something was in a paragraph generally about Biblical apocrypha, it got stuck in that article, whether that specific thing was about Biblical apocrypha or not. There's still a lot of work to be done, and stuff to be moved between the apocrypha articles and to related ones like Biblical canon and deuterocanonical books. /blahedo (t) 18:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- IMO, Biblical apocrypha should be, say, Old Testament apocrypha. New Testament apocrypha covers, obviously, the New Testament books, and all of the books in Biblcal apographa are Old Testament books. This split was done very nicely, by the way - I'd thought before that Apocrypha would be very difficult to split but you found a nice way to do it. The article's been much improved by its trimming and your editing in general - are you an expert on this subject or just very good at copyediting? There's definitely work to be done in terms of a couple of style edits but it's a lot better. Rarr 20:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Although I'm not deeply attached to this nomenclature, I do prefer the title "Biblical apocrypha" because it highlights the fact that of all the many and varied "apocrypha", these are the ones that are frequently printed in Bibles. The reason I don't like the extant "NT apocrypha" is that, while their subject matter is contemporary with that of the NT, nobody (that I know of) actually considers them to be part of the NT. I don't like the term "OT apocrypha" for a similar reason: the people that consider them to be apocrypha don't consider them part of the OT, and vice versa. (Oh, and I'm just an armchair expert on this—I knew a bit about it, and have learned quite a bit more from WP and elsewhere in the course of performing the split!) /blahedo (t) 21:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Parenthetical citations
I'm scratching my head over what to do with the parenthetical citations scattered throughout the text. These appear to be cut-n-pasted in from the text of the 1911 Britannica (or wherever), and cleave to that antique style rather than contemporary, wiki-friendly links & footnote citations.
I'm thinking of passages like these: Thus Origen distinguishes between writings which were read by the churches and apocryphal writings; γραφη μη φερομενη μεν εν τοις κοινοις και δεδημοσιευμενοις βιβλιοις εικος δ ὁτι εν αποκρυφοις φερομενη (Origen's Comm. in Matt., x. 18, on Matt. xiii. 57, ed. Lommatzsch iii. 49 sqq.). Cf. Epist. ad Africam, ix. (Lommatzsch xvii. 31): Euseb. H.E. ii. 23, 25; iii. 3, 6. See Zahn, Gesch. Kanons, i. 126 sqq. Thus the meaning of αποκρυφος is here practically equivalent to "excluded from the public use of the church", and prepares the way for an even less favourable use of the word.
Evidently, the old writer was citing a commentary made by Origen on the Book of Matthew as presented by an editor named Lommatzsch. I have no idea who Lommatzch was, or what book this is -- but I'm uncomfortable simply deleting this reference, since it's putting words in Origen's mouth and needs to be sourced. Should this simply be cited to the Brittanica? Should I (or someone more motivated) actually look up the Lommatzch or some other source for Origen's commentaries, add that to the references and link to that? --grant 16:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- Since it's saved on the talk page, feel free to just cite the Britannica. If somebody discovers that the references weren't preserved from the wholesale Britannica-ization, we can research it. Rarr 19:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Done -- although now, there are a few chunks of Latin and Greek wandering around the page untranslated. I've cited the Britannica all over the place, and linked at least once to a page with a source text from one of the early Christian commentators on it. Greek and Latin translators! Come clean up this page! -- grant 17:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Apocrypha - apocalypse
Would it be wrong to include a link to the latter in the See also section? Theavatar3 19:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Why? Miuq (talk) 00:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
The case against the Apocrypha is overstated
I have been working parts of Michael Barber's blog entry into the Development of the Old Testament canon article. However, I am concerned that Barber's position is only one POV and is a minority viewpoint. I wanted to ask others for their opinion regarding this material and how best to present it in an NPOV way. Among other questions, I'm wondering if this material should be presented in the Development of the Old Testament canon article or in the Deuterocanonical books article.
--Richard 08:40, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
In the "New Testament apocryphal literature" the link for heterodoxy goes to the page on Christian heresy. This is peculiar considering that there is a page on heterodoxy. Is there some reason it is this way? Miuq (talk) 06:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I changed it so that it would link the the Heterodoxy page. Miuq (talk) 00:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Vagueness of definition - application to biblical apocrypha
What exactly is meant by "uncertain authenticity"? How is "authentic" defined, and who is defining it? It seems to me that the question of true authorship is all that the word "apocrypha" is conveying. In this respect, a work that is of "uncertain authenticity" is merely another of saying that the authorship of the work is uncertain. This creates a descriptive redundancy: "Apocrypha are texts of uncertain authenticity or writings where the authorship is questioned." - the texts are "of uncertain authenticity" or the texts' "authorship is questioned"?
This definition leads to an interesting situation: According to believers, the orthodox/canonical works presented in the Bible are "authentic", but the unorthodox/non-canonical works which constitute the Biblical apocrypha are "not authentic". Yet in both cases the authorship is entirely unknown. In the case of canonical Biblical writings, the traditionally attributed authors have gained acceptance with the layperson, absent of any real evidence. In the case of the apocrypha, there are no traditionally attributed authors. Traditional attribution of authorship is not proof of authorship. Thus, there is never ending confusion as to the usage of the term "apocrypha". 126.96.36.199 (talk) 22:41, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Further suggestion for article split - Apocryphal vs. Apocrypha
I would like to suggest that there be an article split between Apocryphal and the Apocrypha. While the Apocrypha is widely accepted as referring to the bible, I am sure that Apocryphal is being confused. Apocryphal should have its own article should be used secularly to point out dubious and doubtful accounts of history such as the stated George Washington and the Cherry Tree story but I am sure there are others like:
- The Charles Darwin deathbed repentance.
- Isaac Newton discovering gravity by watching an apple fall or being hit in the by one.
Already I can envision the article being a list of these events and people and closely tied with the folklore article. Would editors consider creating a new article?--Kencaesi (talk) 20:49, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
The Newton story is rather more than simply apocryphal. There's proof that he told it himself, though of course that's not the same as proof that it actually happened. Peter jackson (talk) 18:37, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Intro is confusing
The intro section states:
- "The general term is usually applied to the books that the Christian Church considered useful but not divinely inspired. As such, it is misleading to refer to the Gospel according to the Hebrews or Gnostic writings as apocryphal, because they would not be classified in the same category by orthodox believers."
Same category as what?? What is the category?
- "[ref]Specifically, ἀπόκρυφα is the neuter plural of ἀπόκρυφος, a participle derived from the verb ἀποκρύπτω [infinitive: ἀποκρύπτειν], "to hide something away."[/ref]"
Huh? How does that a more specific version of the idea about Gospel according to Hebrews?
- "Non-canonical books are texts of uncertain authenticity, or writings where the work is seriously questioned. Given that different denominations have different beliefs about what constitutes canonical scripture, there are several versions of the apocrypha."
How does authenticity relate to apocrypha (texts that are useful but not divinely inspired)? How does How does canonicity relate to apocrypha?
-Pgan002 (talk) 20:57, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
- Well it does say in the 1st sentence that the term is used in various senses. It could be better organized to clarify exactly what they are. Peter jackson (talk) 11:54, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
|This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Assessment comment
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Apocrypha/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
|Revelation 22:18-19 tells us clearly not to add to the words of this prophecy, but however, the apocrypha was added centuries later. The words of the apocryphal writings also lack divine inspiration as they stray far from the rest of the bible. NeilGodman 11:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Last edited at 11:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 08:50, 19 April 2016 (UTC)


text:
Konta secured first WTA title with Stanford victory over Williams
Konta beat Williams 7-5, 5-7, 6-2 to land her maiden WTA Tour title in the Bank of the West Classic in Stanford
Konta beat Williams 7-5, 5-7, 6-2 to land her maiden WTA Tour title in the Bank of the West Classic in Stanford
Perhaps it had all been too good to be true. In the absence of the injured Andy Murray, the stage had been set for Laura Robson to become the focal point of British attention here at the French Open, but for once the 19-year-old failed to deliver. While a 6-3, 6-2 defeat by Caroline Wozniacki was a fair reflection of the two players' rankings – the 22-year-old Dane sits 27 places higher than the Briton at No 10 in the world – there could be no escaping the sense that this was a missed opportunity.
British 19-year-old puts up promising fight against world No 1 but eventually loses 6-2, 6-2
The old boxing cliché has it that a big good 'un will always beat a good little 'un; and in boxing there are different weight divisions supposedly preventing serious mismatches.
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Venus Williams followed sister Serena out of Wimbledon after her 6-2 6-3 defeat by Tsvetana Pironkova ended American involvement in the women's singles.
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Despite having barely played this year, Venus Williams is confident of making a splash this week
American women's tennis is being given an insight into the future in Miami this week – and the signs are not encouraging. The absence of the Williams sisters through injury is serving only to underline the lack of up-and-coming talent.
Venus Williams insisted that she still had plenty of tennis left in her, but there was an inescapable feeling here yesterday that the women's game was approaching the end of an era.
Venus Williams bowed out of the Australian Open tonight but insisted she had "peace of mind" after giving her all against Andrea Petkovic.
Andy Murray said on Twitter that he had "never heard so much noise in a tennis match" while Ross Hutchins, his Davis Cup colleague, said Venus Williams was "making noises that I didn't think were possible".