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Skip to comments.Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets'
Posted on 06/30/2007 4:36:50 PM PDT by 1066AD
Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets' By Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph Last Updated: 12:30am BST 01/07/2007
Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.
The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.
The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.
The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.
But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.
Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.
In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.
They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.
The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.
The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.
Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.
It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.
The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.
The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.
Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.
In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.
One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.
Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.
Go To The Source!
Not defending this test; but thought, with some comprehension of the Italian language, maybe their press might shed some light on this story.
Obviously, the assertion that the bullet would become deformed is what the photograph is about.
I don't want to devote a lot of time translating the article; it seems it reads that Kennedy visited Italy in '63 as well.
Babelfished it; but there may be some reports in the English language that lack some details in the stories that Italy's press has written.
Maybe instead of everyone saying, 3 shots, first cartridge is loaded; the presumption is 3 shots after the initial one if there were possibly four shots.
this is ancient history. They should be investigating all the Clinton conspiracies.
Well said, JW. - You'll get no rational rebuttals, as none are possible. - From Oswald's point of view in the 6th floor window, JFK and Connelly simply did not line up when the 'throat shot' took place; -- and there are no 're-creation' photos that show such a line up.
Don't act like a liberal. When I said "no one will convince me" I did not mean I would not listen to facts.
You took my statment out of context.
I clearly stated I would not be convinced otherwise based on EVIDENCE I saw of the ACTUAL SHOOTING.
Fortunately, that's not necessary.
>>Apparently, according to some of these posters, He and I must be some super human, deadeye shooting machines.<<
Like I posted earlier my husband and I tried a little experiment this morning to see how fast he could shoot three rounds bolt action. 3.5 seconds.
Apparently he's been kryptonite-infused instead of being your typical Marine.
Of course, the CT'ers will tie themselves in knots trying to figure out how it just couldn't be. You'd think they'd never heard of Occam.
Wow! Thanks for the animation. It makes sense. I don't think I've ever seen where Kennedy's head initially goes forward and THEN goes back. Fits with simple physics since a large wad of brain was thrust out of the head that there would be a normal reaction of the head to then move backwards. How do conspiracy theorists get around that?
I just tried to cycle a old Turkish Mauser a couple of times and I can't believe I am so slow. I'm lucky I can shoot fast.
I gave my kid a lever action and it was so funny. Since he's new school and I'm old school I had to remind him to chamber after every shot. He's so used to semi's. Kids these days. Since he came back from Iraq he hasn't had the SAW. He's back carrying an M-16.
So the question I have is do you tell your husband he's Superman or does he already know that's how you think of him? Either way, it's sweet and he's a lucky man.
Simple. They ignore it. I have been trying to figure out just what kind of psychological problem would explain this behavior. Since I'm not a shrink, I was really thinking of asking one what the clinical name of this anomaly would be. I gave up and thought up my own phrase. I call it, "OJ Jurist Syndrome". No matter if a person shows someone with "OJS" all the photographs, the Zapruder film, sworn testimony or years in the making computer simulations, they just ignore it. Their pat answer is the same: "I don't care what you just showed me, I believe what I believe".
Oswald was seen in the window killing the President. That's how they had his description to pick him up and these numbskulls still don't believe he did it. He was the ONLY ONE TO LEAVE THE BOOK DEPOSITORY and they still defend him.
They are EXACTLY the same type of people on the Democratic Underground.
I'm going to have to read the entire thread before I comment next time. I saw a demonstration in the 70's that showed it could not be done. Had not seen the other shows.Happy to stand corrected on this one.
I don't know what Lawyer Garry Spence's political beliefs are; but I remember when he was part of the trial of LHO on TV: a trial I believe he lost btw;
But in his closing argument for the defense; He brought out how in the schools and across this nation, you can ask, even to a schoolkid; "Who killed President Kennedy"; "Lee Harvey Oswald killed him." It's oft repeated. We have been told this.
The American Public clearly have a lot of skepticism on this issue, with still about 70 percent thinking it was conspiracy.
Fifty percent of the American People vote for the democratic party.
I was in Dallas on that day. I was at Parkland on that day. I saw JFK alive and dead. I knew the docs who cared for JFK. The Warren Commission was correct in its conclusions. Conspiracy buffs will never be satisfied!
Fox News;
Heard of them??
"On the 40th anniversary of JFKs assassination, a recent FOX News poll shows most Americans disagree with the governments conclusions about the killing. The Warren Commission (search) found that Lee Harvey Oswald (search) acted alone when he shot Kennedy, but 66 percent of the public today think the assassination was part of a larger conspiracy while only 25 percent think it was the act of one individual. These new poll results are similar to previous surveys conducted by Louis Harris and Associates in 1967, 1975 and 1981, when about two-thirds also felt the shooting was part of a larger conspiracy.
The FOX News poll, conducted by Opinion Dynamics Corporation (search), also shows that most Americans (74 percent) think there was a cover-up of the facts about the assassination of JFK. Few people (14 percent) think we know all the facts and 12 percent are unsure. "
Now, where do we have a link, that Republicans believe the JFK assassination was a lone nut and Democrats believe it was conspiracy??
Wrong. We think Oswald did it we just think he had help.
Having stood at that window before it was blocked off, I can tell you this: He could see the car come directly at him and then turn slowly to his right. He had only to wait until his target cleared the trees below him. The 20 sec, of firing was really too quick for the driver to react since what was happening was behind him. The target moved in an almost straight line directly in from of him as he was firing.
Bull. Your fellow "theorists" have been saying for years Oswald was just a patsy. You guys just dream it up as you go along. You have shooters hiding in trees, sewers, Secret Serviceman discharging an M-16 etc. Someone even dreamed up a hidden gun in an umbrella.
Your fellow "theorists" had Oswald surrounded by co-workers watching the parade on the front stairs of the Depository. The real co-worker, who doesn't even look like Oswald had to come forward and explain he was the guy standing there and guys exactly like you STILL DON'T BELIEVE IT.
So show me exactly where Oswald's "help" was standing and shooting with a rifle. Make it match the trajectories and wounds. I could use a laugh.
I know its all Hollywood { Oliver Stone style } but whenever I watch JFK it scares me half to death...especially the scene where Jim Garrison meets he man in black, Mr X { Donald Sutherland }.
Theories similar to X-FILES....Trust No One.
I don't know who or how, I just don't think a loser like Oswald could have pulled it off without help from someone.
I also have such a low opinion of LBJ that I wouldn't put it past him to have been involved.
It was the only way LBJ was ever going to make it to the presidency and I think he was the kind of person who would kill to get there.
I understand. It's just too bad so many conservatives also seem to buy into this. How many, I don't know.
Silly me. I took your words at face value. I won't make that mistake again.
I clearly stated I would not be convinced otherwise based on EVIDENCE I saw of the ACTUAL SHOOTING.
Lest I be again accused of taking you out of context, let's clarify. Are you saying that EVIDENCE of the ACTUAL SHOOTING will not convince you? Or are you saying that EVIDENCE of the ACTUAL SHOOTING has led you to your current belief, and you will not be convinced otherwise?
Furhman deals with the curb in his book. Something hit the curb, but was it a direct bullet hit? Probably not. Bullet fragment? Skull fragment?
I wouldn't hang everything on that curb chip.
3 shots, 3 hits makes a lot of sense to me.
Yeah, it's not like lonely, bitter losers turn out to be assassins. Well, except Charles Guiteau. And Leon Czoglocz. And Mark David Chapman. And Sirhan Sirhan. And James Earl Ray. And Sara Jane Moore, Squeaky Fromme and John Hinckley, who tried and failed.
Come to think of it, only one of our asassinated presidents was killed by someone who was not a loser -- John Wilkes Booth was a star of his day. And his assasination plot is also the only one that was a well-established conspiracy, albeit a mostly botched one.
"I just don't think a loser like Oswald could have pulled it off" is like the belief of the Kennedys that they can engage in risky behavior without serious risk; it is a belief at odds with an overwhelming weight of evidence.
I also have such a low opinion of LBJ that I wouldnt put it past him to have been involved.
"He's a bad enough guy to do it" is not evidence that he did it.
>>Since hes new school and Im old school I had to remind him to chamber after every shot.<<
I'm lucky, I decided to take my frist firearms instruction from someone I had no emotional attachment to whatsoever, and they started me on a .357 single action revolver, so I'm used to doing it in somewhat the manhandling way. The first thing I did with my semi handgun was train myself to manually chamber each round if necessary, and actually it was necessary, as I had brass getting jammed multiple times in the first 100 rounds. Given that racking the slide is the biggest problem that most women have with semis I'm glad I confronted it to begin with.
>>So the question I have is do you tell your husband hes Superman or does he already know thats how you think of him? Either way, its sweet and hes a lucky man.<<
You know, I didn't much think about it, but now I'm going to go make sure he knows. We're celebrating our first anniversary today. :)
You can rant on. I don't really care who shot Kennedy but some of you who think Oswald did it alone and the Warren Commission was correct sure seem to have a lot of emotion tied up in your opinion. As I said, I don't care who did it and I have *zero* emotion tied up in the whole subject.
In less than 8 seconds? BWAHAHAHAHA
In other words don't let the facts stand in the way, "LBJ's fault". See post 250. You fit the profile.
Free Republic is now the mirror image of the Democratic Underground.
ok asshole... i tried to be polite...
You did not "take my words at face value" you twist the meaning to be a smarmy little twerp
But since you are too stupid to listen and insist on twisting words ...
The EVIDENCE I saw is a MOVIE OF THE ACTUAL SHOOTING. That movie tells me more (as a scientist) than any 'discussions' or 'analysis'. I know what I can see with my own two eyes, from AN ACTUAL FILM OF THE SHOOTING. And nothing will convince me that I did not see what I saw...
Is that clear?
(I doubt it)
Don't get me wrong - I am certain that Oswald fired shots but I am not certain as many are here that he fired all.
I am very sceptical.
And when you add the Oswald hit by a low level Mafia stooge and Jackie's marriage to one of the most powerful men in the the underworld at the time, this has all sorts of flags popping up. And did you take a look at the Hunt pictures?
I had read something about that years ago but never saw the pics.
How do you make windage and elevation adjustments to a scope and fire 4 shots in 8 seconds?
Pls edify us.
"He could see the car come directly "
Another screwy thing.
Hey - how many of you treestand hunters always wait for the deer to come under your stand and start running away before you shoot?
I am not a hardcore Kennedy assassination buff like many here. I enjoy reading the arguments from both/all sides. However, I fail to see what poll results matter in these kinds of things. What people BELIEVE to be the case doesn't really matter. What matters is what the truth is. If 90% of people THINK the sky is green, that is no evidence of the color of the sky, green or otherwise.
Have to finsh that beer before we do anything.
Kennedy had enough enemies; with out reading some people's phobias and turning to name calling because they can't quite muster a valid challenge to the argument.
RFK as AG; busted the mafia bad; Cold War was going on at the time, Bay of Pigs Fiasco and Castro but JFK on the bad side of both sides, doubts on LBJ too.
And all of those documents "locked up" for so much time; does not allow people to further "prove" a theory and indeed adds to further suspicion.
Fact is we don't know what Lee Harvey was capable of doing at that particular point in time and space. Michael Jordon could miss an easy lay-up and lose the game. The worst player in the league could hit a three-pointer at the buzzer from forty feet away and win it.
Interestingly enough, a pro-one gun man website has a host of links that they still find useful and credible in the debate for both sides; and give the following link used:
As for Posner; this other site disputes some of his findings; http://www.assassinationweb.com/audio1.htm
"Nothing could be further from the truth! Not only did the JFK autopsy pathologists, Humes and Boswell NOT change their minds about the low position of the head wound (which makes the alleged shot from above and behind impossible, and therefore refutes the ridiculous lone-assassination theory that Lee Harvey Oswald alone murdered JFK) but Gerald Posner never even spoke to Boswell! How do we know this? J. Thornton Boswell himself, a man who participated in the autopsy of President Kennedy (and who believes Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone) tells us this in this conversation with Dr. Aguilar.
So, do we believe Posner or do we believe Boswell? The only reasonable conclusion we can draw is that Posner, in his determined effort to rehabilitate the long-discredited Warren Commission version of the assassination, will stop at nothing, including lying to the United States Congress, to "close" the case. "
Warren Commission Report Chapter 3
Refered lines in Chapter 3, as per the reference numbers..
-264- Examination of the Zapruder motion picture camera by the FBI established that 18.8 pictures or frames were taken each second, and therefore, the timing of certain events could be calculated by allowing 1/18.8 seconds for the action depicted from one frame to the next.
-264- -266- Tests of the assassin's rifle disclosed that at least 2.8 seconds were required between shots.
-266- -346- The possibility that the second shot missed is consistent with the elapsed time between the two shots that hit their mark. From the timing evidenced by the Zapruder films, there was an interval of from 4.8 to 5.6 seconds between the shot which struck President Kennedy's neck (between frames 210 to 225) and the shot which struck his head at frame 813.
Lets see if the math works. — There are 602 frames between 210 & 813..
- Whoops, must be a mis-print , —
let's try frame 313, which makes 103 frames...
— 103 frames divided by 18.8 frames per second, equals 5.48 seconds, — max time avail for two bolt cycles and 3 shots..
Thus, — if shot #1 hits JFK's back at frame 210, then shot #2 misses, and shot #3 hits at frame 313 that equals 3 shots. — 2.8 seconds for each bolt cycle/aim/fire; for a total of 5.6 seconds..
-— So ~whoops~ again, line 266 must have another mis-print, and really meant it takes 2.3 seconds to cycle the action, aim & fire.
—— Unless the 1st shot was taken, and missed, 43 frames [2.3 seconds] ~before~ frame 210, - at frame 173 -, when the limo was behind the tree.
— Or, the 3rd shot missed completely, 2.3 seconds ~after~ JFK's head exploded.
It becomes apparent that shot #2 had to be the shot that 'missed' according to the Warren Reports own timeline, ~if~, big IF, the single bullet theory is to be considered convincing.
Which leaves the issue back in the laps of the re-creators of the actions taken.. Could LHO have aimed & fired 3 shots in 5.48 seconds?
Sounds like magic to me. Most real shooters over the years have agreed. The government/media re-enactments have been so staged as to be unconvincing.
My dad taught me the same way. I once watched my dad "run" 4 rounds through a 30-40 Krag at a buck that was running flat out from our left to our right. Fourth shot? Right through the heart.
Time frame? Alot less than 8 seconds.
I shot my friends M1 a couple weeks ago. MAN, Those are good shooting rifles! We were shooting Valvoline quart bottles at 150 yards.
Shooter, I believe there is a lingering mystery surrounding the JFK assassination. It is how, in the course of really just a few years, a simple homicide that was solved within a day or so, and understood by nearly all Americans, was twisted and misrepresented by a small group of writers and activists to the point today that a strong majority of people believe someone other than Lee Harvey Oswald was responsible.
Oswald was clearly on the scene that day, was identified as the man in the sixth floor window who fired the shots that the majority of witnesses at the time stated came from that direction, did no work that day when he was on the upper floors as shown by his unfilled order sheet, owned the rifle that was ballistically matched as the murder gun, fled the scene after the shooting, killed a policeman and later attempted to hide in a theater and resisted arrest when discovered. Yet many cannot accept the simple truth.
Films of JFK in the limo show his head moving forward before it moves back, and the spray of blood and brain tissue flying forward. Expert physicists and lab tests explain how an object can move toward the direction of a gunshot. Scientific analysis shows that the evidence taken from both JFK and Connally's bodies tallies with and is consistent with the bullet that hit both men. The very fact that Connally's wound was oblong shows the bullet had hit something else before striking him. Yet many cannot accept the simple truth.
There is NO evidence that anyone else was involved in the crime. No other fingerprints, no other gunshots. No minutes of secret meetings of Oswald and a coconspirator. No help in escaping from Dallas. Nothing. Yet many cannot accept the simple truth.
How is this possible? Why do most people accept the events of 9/11 as presented yet reject the Warren Report? Why do most people believe Bugliosi's book that says OJ killed two people yet mock one that shows Oswald acted alone?
What makes the JFK killing so powerful, so mythical in scope and meaning, that people believe Mark Lane and David Lifton over their own lying eyes? This is the true mystery of the death of a President, and one that truly may never be solved.
This was done by an Italian team.
Could your 70 year old man do it while running and firing back over his shoulder?
I do, he was wearing a sequined dress the last time I saw him...
I'm not sniper material by a long shot, but I'm a pretty dang good shot through open sights. Crouching right there, the thought of making those shots with a pristine rifle, much less that clunker, looked WAY unlikely. WAY.
Funny. I looked through that same window as you did, and my impressions was just the opposite -- it looked pretty easy to me. The shot was much closer than I had the impression of from looking at photos of the area. Like you, I'm not an 'expert marksman' but even with my limited experience, I think I could hit 2 of 3 at a slow moving target from there.
And there was noting "clunker" about that rifle. It was and remains a fine, accurate weapon. The only reason it was so cheep then ($15 ?) is because there were tens of thousands of them on the surplus market.
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The variety of smartphones and tablet devices that support different multimedia formats is quite difficult. Especially if you have a multimedia file and want to run it from the device, but in fact the file is not supported. This is because the codec support that can be read by any device that is different.
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Waterford — Three adventure seekers on personal watercraft made a safe return to the shore Wednesday afternoon after one of their Jet Skis broke down near Two Tree Island.
Around 3:30 p.m., firefighters from the Goshen Fire Department launched their boat from the Pleasure Beach boat launch to go out to find a father and son who were attempting to tow to shore an inoperable craft.
Firefighters were called in after a woman who was with the two men called 911 from shore.
Goshen Fire Chief Don Chapman said it appeared one man rode his craft to shore to retrieve a tow rope while the second man stayed at Two Tree Island with the inoperable craft. Two Tree Island is essentially a rocky outcropping that is fully above water only at low tide, Chapman said.
After searching for several minutes, Chapman said firefighters encountered the two men in the water attempting to get to shore but were hindered by the tide and strong winds that were pushing them toward Niantic. Firefighters plucked one man from the water and brought him and his broken watercraft to shore. The second man rode to shore on his own.
One man was briefly evaluated for signs of hypothermia in a waiting Waterford ambulance, but all refused medical treatment, Chapman said.
"We went out for one last ride of the year, entertaining some visiting guests from New Hampshire," said James Luce of Quaker Hill, through chattering teeth.
Luce said he was out with his son, also named James Luce, and friend Laura Zerra, a survivalist who has appeared on the Discovery Channel series "Naked and Afraid." All were wearing wet suits and taking turns riding and jumping waves.
"We wanted some end-of-the-year adventure. We got it," the elder Luce said.
Chapman said he was glad all were safe, but added, "I think they're a little crazy to be out there with the wind, rain and cold weather."
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Join fellow campers for Summer Camp Day with the Phillies on Thursday, August 4 at 1:05 p.m. when the Phillies host the San Francisco Giants.
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Thank you for your continued support of the Phillies!


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I Need A J-O-B! The Ex-Offender's Job Search Manualby Louis N Jones
However, the ex-offender who reads and studies this manual will
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- 05/06/2005
- Pages:
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- 777,190
- Product dimensions:
- 8.25(w) x 11.00(h) x 0.18(d)
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