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Skip to comments.THE CHURCH FATHERS: A DOOR TO ROME (fundamentalist warns saying they sound too Catholic)
Posted on 08/30/2009 2:03:16 PM PDT by NYer
click here to read article
You're quoting someone.
Why don't you say whom you were quoting?
It excels in falsity and non-truthiness.
Funny how that happened.
It is by James White, but I'm not sure where I found it...have it as a word file on the computer now, but could probably find a link to the whole thing if you want to read it. I saved the parts I thought best.
If the oral tradition of Catholics results in doctrine (vs scripture), then Catholics need to show the oral tradition is as good as scripture for teaching, etc - IF they want others to take it seriously.
If we agree that scripture is God-breathed, but you claim oral tradition is also needed, then the ball is in your court - WHY do you believe that? What makes you think an unspecified oral tradition of uncertain origin is of comparable value to the God-breathed words of scripture?
Herein lies the cundundrom;
If the Church became apostate in the first century after Christ, while there were still those who knew and were instructed by Apostles who walked with Christ, then how does one TRUST the Bible as inerrant if the very people who they claim were in error decided which books were canonical? Either they were right, or the Bible is a collection of books put together by heretics. It cant be both.........
I believe most Protestants worry about what happened after the Church was accepted by the State. And most believe it was a very gradual process...I agree with Augustine on far more than I disagree.
As for the argument of canon, please read this thread I started a while back:
How We Got the New Testament - 2 1/2 Views (LONG!)
By 1000+ AD, Rome split from the Orthodox and went further and further astray.
Brace yourself, Mr R....countdown to ignition, 10..9..8..7..6 (maybe everyone already went to bed) - you may have a reprieve. ;)
We agree with the Orthodox far more than either we or the Orthodox agree with you, and both we and the Orthodox agree far more with the undivided church of the 5th century, or the 4th, or the 3rd ... than we do with you.
Incidentally, "tradition" simply means the understanding of the faith and of the scriptures which the church has continuously held and which has deepened over the years.
To reject tradition means that you have to assert, in effect, that the Holy Spirit guides you, but hasn't been guiding other Christians continuously over the past two millennia. If he did guide them, you should listen to them.
Y'all understand that instinctively already. That's why you quote Spurgeon and Calvin to one another. Once you do that, you're already admitting the utility of tradition. Now the only question becomes ... whose tradition.
But if sola scriptura were true, that wouldn't even be possible, would it? I mean it would be obvious to everyone that when Christ says "This is my body" he really means "This is merely a symbolic reminder of my body" and when Paul says "All that I have taught you, pass on to other faithful men who will be able to teach others" he really means "Write a book, make copies, and let everyone figure out what it means for himself."
As far as making Scripture say what we want it to say, compare that to dispensationalist Protestants who rule whole books of the Scriptures out-of-bounds as "not applying to us in the church age". Some of them will say flatly that nothing Christ says in the Gospels applies to Gentile Christians.
Good luck with that on the last day!
"Y'all understand that instinctively already. That's why you quote Spurgeon and Calvin to one another. Once you do that, you're already admitting the utility of tradition. Now the only question becomes ... whose tradition. "
Completely false. In my 35+ years as a Protestant, I've never heard anyone say, "Luther/Calvin/Spurgeon said it; I believe it!" We quote COMMENTATORS who provide ARGUMENTS, not AUTHORITIES.
If the arguments are persuasive, then we change. If not, we do not.
"To reject tradition means that you have to assert, in effect, that the Holy Spirit guides you, but hasn't been guiding other Christians continuously over the past two millennia. If he did guide them, you should listen to them."
The Holy Spirit guides, but we are all men of flesh who find reasons not to listen. ALL men discussing doctrine mix good and bad. That is why our rule of truth is scripture - it alone comes from God without human error.
Luther's writings (and Augustine's) are interesting. God's writings are revealed truth. The latter judges the former.
Using the practice of those who deny scripture to judge those of us who do not is like judging the Catholic Church for the positions of Ted Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi.
Sola Scriptura doesn't mean evil men cannot twist words for their purposes. On the contrary - it is repeatedly predicted in scripture, so Sola Scriptura anticipates it.
"So we confidently look to our older brothers and sisters for their wisdom and guidance, because we are not so afraid that God will abandon us, His family. We are not afraid."
Here! Here! Very beautifully said! Thank you.
Which would include everything following said by the author or commentary by any Protestant pastor or author, no?
When words are taken out of context and misinterpreted it causes confusion and that is why all Scripture can be used to help in our understanding of it. Not just reading one verse, but starting at the beginning of a chapter of the book to get the sense of purpose for the writings. The Holy Spirit is the must important part because, as we study the Word he brings understanding to us.
This Bible study, reading should never be done for idle curiosity but prayerfully and meditatively with a heart seeking after God's truth. As an example, I can tell you the Bible says "god is dead". But the verse actually says "A fool in his heart says God is dead." That's a simple way of showing the point of words in context meaning what they say. Another way may be you read something Jesus said that doesn't make sense to you. You could look up the verse where Jesus spoke maybe in another Gospel about the same subject and see if the wording is a little clearer.
As far as what Scripture were meant for which group, etc. we should read it all because there are parts that God is using to speak directly to a person about something but the truth of what is spoken applies to us as well. How many people quote the 23 Psalm when they are in a bad place. It was written by David to the Lord yet anyone who reads it feels like it was meant for them personally. I see it as God's Love Letter to US and he will ensure it is preserved for all Eternity.
Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Because Christ founded the Catholic Church and protects it from error in teaching to this day. It is His promise.
It's all right there in Scripture.
Where does Scripture say sola Scriptura?
Oh wait, it doesn't......how ironic: a doctrine which fails its own test.
Precisely! And that's exactly the problem with the article.
You seem like a curious, open-minded person, who wants to know when and why such an idea can take root in the Church. Well, the only way to answer that question is to study history. Christian history specifically. We need to go back to the earliest generations of Christians, read what they wrote, and trace the development of their ideas down the centuries. In other words, you have to study Patristics. The Church Fathers.
Now here's the problem that many people, including the author of this article, run up against.
When you read the Church Fathers, you find something that is, to many people including myself, rather surprising. You very often see distinctively Catholic idea *right from the beginning*. So you'll read, for instance, Irenaeus of Lyons writing already in the 160s-170s that it was a matter of necessity--necessity--that every Church be in agreement with the Church of Rome because of its foundation by Peter and Paul and because it preserved the Apostolic doctrine in its purity from the very beginning. You read Clement of Rome in the 90s writing to the Corinthians taking an unusually authoritative tone with them. You see Ignatius of Antioch writing with authority to all these different sees until he writes to Rome, where he suddenly becomes deferential. You read in Eusebius that Victor, bishop of Rome in the 190s was threatening to excommunicate the East for its Quartodeciman observance of Easter date.
And this is all way before Constantine. Way before Christianity was even legalized in the Empire. This was the time of the catacombs, of the persecutions.
Basically, most people who read these writings find that they show a much more "Catholic" Church than they might expect. And there's a range of responses to that. Some people adopt a little more of a tolerant attitude and respect toward the Catholic distinctives (I think C.S. Lewis is in this class). Others actually convert. What the author of this article has done, however, I think is a little goofy. He looks at these early Christian writings saying these things that he finds a little too "Catholic" and he says..."Well...they are obviously heretics! We shouldn't listen to them!"
That's what's wrong with the article. Instead of revisiting his own assumptions about what the early Church was like, he just labels these folks heretics. Which begs the question--if all these guys were heretics, then who back then was orthodox?
So if you think it would indeed be helpful to find out when all these Roman Catholic ideas originated, I would advise you to do what others have done who have looked into this question and read the Church Fathers yourself. I can't know of course what your response will be to what you read. But not a few people, myself included, who have done so have come to the conclusion that these ideas were contained in the Church from the very beginning.
No Churches, no preachers, no pamphlets, and tracts. No posts on FR asserting Sola Scriptura. No "homecomings", no "Revivals, no stewardship campaigns.
Jesus says to Martha, "One thing is needful; Mary has chosen the good portion," but strangely fails to mention that the "one thing" is the Bible.
And, of course, the whole conversation displays the "binary" preoccupation of the crypto-Manicheans. "Only this one thing." "If it's not necessary, it is harmful."
Oh well. If people are offered butter and insist on margarine, we can still love them, and let them know there's butter for their bread should they ever want it.
Also, technically, we hold that revelation stopped when the last Apostle shuffled off the mortal coil. So the writers assertion:
The teaching of the church fathers does not contain one jot or tittle of divine revelation.is a yawner for us. We never said it did.
Then he suggests a meaning of "Church Fathers" which is nonsense to us -- and argues against it.
Similarly, mostly the disagreements are disagreements of emphasis, and the persistent problem of the what I am coming to think of as the protestant binary view, an insistence on a simple-minded interpretation and evaluation of a proposition. E.G.: He suggests we teach the false doctrine that Martyrdom provides forgiveness. Now, IF that means that we think the martyr has no need of faith in Christ, of the Holy Spirit in his life, or of Christ's once for all redeeming sacrifice, then it is inaccurate.
But he will be able to find instances of our asserting that we can be confident that, say, Polycarp is in heaven because of his martyrdom. He will spin that one way, while we hear something quite different.
His citing (without references) Tertullian gives an example of the problem of the sledge-hammer approach. Why doesn't he mention that while we look at Tertullian's earlier works as a picture of Xtian thought in his time, we also think that Tertullian became a heretic? It is dishonest to fail to mention that, or to suggest that we teach that "there was a time when the Son of God did not exist."
So he starts this rant by arguing against something we do not think or teach, and then presents evidence for his argument. The entire thing is built on a shaky foundation.
If I were to start an argument against you by saying "There is NO evidence that The apostle Paul was a red-headed parrot," and then provided reams of evidence that Paul was NOT a red-headed parrot, would you take me seriously? That is more or less what this guy does, and that's why I'm laughing.
Your entire post was excellent, but the part above was outstanding!
The author's ENTIRE thesis is that, "if it sounds Catholic" it's automatically heresy and this seems to based upon a predetermined conclusion that Catholicism is heresy. It really is the most intellectually hollow thesis someone can ever have.
It all means nothing if the church does not teach people to be still like Jesus did and the fhu.com is doing today. The church is weak in our society because it has lost the true way to pray where in all power comes through.
I think you might be surprised if you looked into what the Church actually teaches about prayer.
Very well summarized wagglebee, thanks!
The author is judging the Fathers by his own theological standards. That's a fair theological position. It's a horrible *historical* position though. If these beliefs were heresy, why were they never corrected by later Fathers, Fathers who were happy to correct people like Origen or Tertullian on other matters. If they were out of the mainstream of Christian thought, why didn't mainstream Christian thought repudiate them as it repudiated Cerinthus and Arius and everyone else?
The simpler historical explanation is that the Fathers weren't the heretics. Way of Life are the heretics. ;)
Ping for the orthodox laugh of the day. The posts are funny too and not only the protestant ones.... :)
They weren't even "corrected" by any of the Protestant Reformers.
From a historical perspective, modern-day anti-Catholicism requires one to deliberately IGNORE verifiable facts. Here are a few FACTUAL instances:
1. If the Rapture and Dispensationalism is so obvious, why didn't ANYONE make mention of it prior to the 19th century?
2. The basis of sola scriptura is predicated on two fundamental necessities, FIRST that everyone actually has a Bible to read and SECOND that they can actually read it (I'm not talking about having the capacity to interpret it, I mean the simple ability to read it). And the FACT is that neither of these conditions existed for well over 90% of the population prior to the 15th century. Before Gutenberg Bibles simply were unaffordable to all but the wealthiest families, this was not because of some conspiracy by the Church it was simply because the cost of inscribing them by hand was incredible (a true handwritten Torah costs around $40,000 today, but keep in mind that this really only contains the first five Books of what would go into a Bible). Because books were basically unavailable prior to the 15th century, the average person had neither the opportunity nor the reason to learn to read, people learned math that was necessary to their commerce and that was about it. Now, God obviously would have known that Gutenberg would not invent the printing press for fourteen hundred years after the Resurrection; so one must wonder why, if sola scriptura was so vital, He would be so cruel as to wait so song before it became genuinely possible.
"When you read the Church Fathers, you find something that is, to many people including myself, rather surprising. You very often see distinctively Catholic idea *right from the beginning*."
Incorrect. What you find is that people who read church fathers thru a modern lens can see pretty much whatever they want. There are passages showing they believed in a spiritual approach to Eucharist, and passages from the same authors showing a more literal approach.
Augustine wrote 4 books on how to develop your own personal interpretation of scripture. He argued that difficult passages of scripture should be interpreted by other passages of scripture - not by resorting to the 'church' interpretation. Did that make him a Protestant?
No, but both Protestants and Catholics can read modern phrases into writing that had nothing to do with it.
When they wrote of the Catholic Church, they did NOT mean the Roman Catholic Church, with the Pope over all. When someone under Rome's jurisdiction talked of the Bishop of Rome being supreme, it didn't mean supreme over other jurisdictions.
It is also obvious that many church fathers had some pretty screwed up doctrine. You don't have traditions passed down from the Apostles. You have traditions that developed over hundreds of years as various men tried to explain their beliefs.
My reply is to put those traditions to the test of scripture, which seems fair enough if they are to be given equal regard. What is the canon? Which writings are traditions, and which are not? For scripture, the tests were acceptance by all the believers, and intimate association if not directly coming from the hand of an Apostle.
So when people go from praying for the dead - which I've done, since the God who knows the future before it happens knew I was going to pray that prayer before the person died - to a belief in Purgatory, with temporal punishment for sins which were forgiven but still need punishment...sorry, that is a leap from faith into denial of the power of God.
All believers didn't accept Purgatory - see the Orthodox Church, or various others outside Rome's influence. No Apostle taught it. All scripture denies its basic premise - that God punishes in the afterlife those whom he has forgiven.
Real presence? I see no indication it was widely taught or even thought about by church fathers. And why believe a church father writing in 350 AD over the words of Christ, or the Apostles?
Those who believe tradition is equal to scripture ought to show tradition meets as rigorous a test as scripture. Where is the Apostolic authority for traditions developed hundreds of years later?
"The basis of sola scriptura is predicated on two fundamental necessities, FIRST that everyone actually has a Bible to read and SECOND that they can actually read it"
Incorrect. Sola Scriptura does NOT say everyone has to read the Bible and form their own opinion. It DOES say that church doctrine must be in agreement with scripture.
A teacher who teaches illiterate people from scripture allows all of his listeners to grow IAW Sola Scriptura.
The problem the young church faced wasn't illiteracy, but vain philosophical fancies.
"See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" ( referring to things that all perish as they are used)according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh." - Colossians 2
Too many have ignored that to their eternal peril.
You mean like the words of John 6 and 1st Corinthians 11?
The reality is that NOBODY even questioned the Real Presence until Calvin came along.
Of course to get around this Protestants who make the claim this article does - and not all do so let us be clear - state that the real church was underground for all these centuries until such and such re-founded the original church. That is why they tend to make heroes of Christian heretical movements and see them as proto-Protestants etc - even though doctrinally those earlier heretical movements don't match Protestantism much at all. I probably over simplified the response of mine but I think I got the gist of it out.
And the doctrine of the Catholic Church ALWAYS has been. The ONLY way that one can dispute this is to offer their OWN OPINION of Scripture.
If people choose to abide by interpretations of Scripture which have been in a state of perpetual change and dispute since the 16th century, that is certainly their choice. However, consider this, WHICH version of "sola scriptura" is the correct one? Is it that of the Lutherans or the Calvinists or the Baptists or the Dispensationalists? Which one?
Or people can choose to abide by the unambiguous teachings of the Catholic Church which have NEVER changed in two thousand years.
"That is why they tend to make heroes of Christian heretical movements and see them as proto-Protestants etc - even though doctrinally those earlier heretical movements don't match Protestantism much at all."
After you've spent some time on these FR Religion threads, you will see all sorts of ancient heresies embraced by our protestant friends, not just Waldensianism and Novatianism. One of the heresies most widely embraced is Nestorianism, which the author of this article apparently espouses.
No, they seem to believe that there were groups practicing YOPIOS and rejecting Church teaching from the very beginning. Unfortunately, they have never been able to produce a single shread of evidence that any such groups existed. It's actually a lot like Mormonism.
Yep, you see them embrace Nestorianism A LOT. One even admitted to it last week (though I doubt he had a clue what he was talking about. They usually try to change the subject when they are asked to cite the actual moment when the PURELY HUMAN Jesus Christ became God.
I simply don't have the words.
Well, maybe I do...but it's not the wisest use of my time at the moment...
Kyrie eleison.
Gospodi pomiluj.
Lord, have mercy.
John 6 wasn't about the Eucharist - which wasn't instituted until much later - nor would any plain reading of the chapter indicate transubstantiation. Those who turned away in John 6 were not denying transubstantiation, but the need to approach God via Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 11? You mean:
"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lords death until he comes.
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died."
Compare that to the 1689 Baptist Confession:
"The outward elements in this ordinance, when correctly set apart for the use ordained by Christ, bear such a strong relation to the Lord crucified, that they are sometimes truly, but figuratively, called by the name of the things they represent, namely, the body and blood of Christ. ] However, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine as they were before...Worthy recipients, when outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, also receive them inwardly by faith, truly and in fact, not as flesh and body but spiritually. In so doing they feed upon Christ crucified, and receive all the benefits of his death. The body and blood of Christ are not present physically, but spiritually by the faith of believers in the ordinance, just as the elements themselves are to their outward senses. All ignorant and ungodly people who are unfit to enjoy fellowship with Christ, are equally unworthy of the Lord's table, and cannot, without great sin against him, partake of these holy mysteries, or be admitted to them while they remain as they are. Indeed, whoever participates unworthily is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, eating and drinking judgment on themselves."
So...does real presence mean spiritually, or physically? You'll find many church fathers supporting the former, as well as the latter. But since they were men, and their words were not 'God-breathed', why not just pay attention to the Gospels and Epistles?
"It DOES say that church doctrine must be in agreement with scripture.
And the doctrine of the Catholic Church ALWAYS has been. The ONLY way that one can dispute this is to offer their OWN OPINION of Scripture."
If you define the correct interpretation of scripture as anything the Catholic Church proclaims, then your statement is both correct and superfluous - for if Rome alone can interpret scripture correctly, then scripture can never bind Rome.
And that is what we find. Rome claims sole authority to interpret, and then has no anchor against heresy. So it develops doctrine based on men living a thousand years after the Apostles, then distorts scripture in an attempt to justify the heresy, rather than expunge it.
While claiming Apostolic Succession, it engages in Apostolic denial.
The Protestants I know would reply, " 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." and
"16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesall things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."
No, no, and no. People like to see this issue confused because it suits their ideological position. But let me set this straight right here and right now vis a vis the Eucharist, because I don't have time to go through all your disputed doctrines.
There are passages that take a literal approach to the Eucharist, yes. There are passage that take a spiritual approach, yes. HOWEVER. There are NO passages, NOT ONE in all the Fathers, that *repudiate* the literal sense in favor of the spiritual.
The REPUDIATION is the problem. You find me a quotation from a Church Father that reflects the strong language of the Black Rubric of the Book of Common Prayer, where it flat out says that the worship of the host is idolatry, then we can talk. No Father says that.
But I've made a pretty thorough study of this issue, and I can tell you flat out that even the Fathers who said things like "The Eucharist is a symbol" nevertheless made clear that they believed it wasn't ONLY a symbol. So it's not just a matter of reading into it anything you want.
And I notice you did something a little cute there. You said "Why listen to someone from 350 AD"...deliberately skewing the date to one after Constantine. I cited absolutely no one that late. I cited ONLY people from about 90 to 200. Two of them, Ignatius and Clement, very likely sat at the feet of the Apostles themselves (John and Peter respectively).
Nearly two thousand years of Church teachings disagree with you.
Compare that to the 1689 Baptist Confession
Why should I care what the Baptists said sixteen and a half centuries later?
I'm not quite sure what Rome has to do with anything. But you would be correct, the Church CANNOT teach error unless Christ and Scripture both lied.
Yes, I agree that Christ is Eternal; however, I was talking about those who embrace Nestorianism. If you are unfamiliar with Nestorianism, the Wikipedia description is fairly accurate.
In fact, let's even go farther. There were many apocryphal books floating around. And many copies of Scripture that were tampered with to reflect theological positions.
So in order to trust a copy of the Scripture you were looking at, you had to *trust the person who provided it to you*. That they were not in league with heretics and got bad copies of the thing. That they would read it to you correctly.
Of course the sola scriptura position is completely untenable in this situation. Even the person who adopts it today has to perforce trust a legion of folks from his ministers/publishers/translators on.
Exactly. The author needs to have a Trail-of-blood type explanation, or else he's confronted with the strange task of accusing the entire first centuries of the Church to be heterodox.
And they must also agree that God has CRUELLY DENIED this opportunity to billions of Christians throughout history, that God effectively said to billions, "You can read the Bible and be Saved OR you can have food, clothing and shelter, your choice."
I have a lifelong love of history and my favorite period is medieval Europe and the reality is that during the Middle Ages all of Europe was under feudalism and well over 90% of the population was impoverished and this didn't begin to change until the social upheaval brought on by the Black Death in the mid-14th century. Nearly every person had to work land that they didn't own in order to earn enough to eat and live in a hut that they also didn't own. Depending on the crops, starvation was a very real concern on a daily basis. It was IMPOSSIBLE for these people to own a Bible, because even if that was their choice, they would starve before they saved the money.
Right! I have a book on medieval manuscripts somewhere....it tried to calculate how much a full Bible would have cost in the High Middle Ages. I forget most of the details, but it basically came out to about as much as a house.
Yet they had the "catechism of the poor" in those beautiful paintings and stained glass windows.
Considering Catholicism's negative attitude to the immemorial Sinaitic Tradition and the Rabbis who preserved it, to attack Protestants for not accepting the church fathers seems hypocritical.
I mean, whoever said Catholic-bashing is the last remaining prejudice that is still socially acceptable, knows what theyre talkin about.
First of all, this article was posted by a Catholic on order to ridicule Fundamentalists. It is they who are being bashed.
Second of all, you sit there and engage in the world's largest and most invisible prejudice, a contempt of Fundamentalist chr*stians, and have the temerity to complain about anti-Catholicism as the "last acceptable prejudice!"
Thirdly, what is is it about Fundamentalism that you object to? That it believes miracles actually occurred as described in the Bible? Does this offend you? You wish to subject G-d A-mighty to the tests of "science?" Then you have no business believing in guardian angels and transubstantiation. But if you object to the American Fundamentalist ethno-culture (which is what most "anti-fundamentalism" really is), then there is little that can be done but remark that Catholicism obviously isn't as "universal" as it claims to be or it would not condemn ethno-cultures. G-d obviously didn't intend everyone in the world to be Irish, Italian, or Hispanic or He would have made them such.
Jerome followed the false teaching of asceticism, believing the state of celibacy to be spiritually superior to that of marriage, and demanding that church leaders be unmarried.
Well, there was this guy named Paul that said it was superior but what did he know?
Considering that this guy named Paul said "let your women keep silent in church" but that hasn't stopped you from becoming a lector, it seems to me that you don't think he knew what he was talking about either.
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- He pua'a kēiā. He pua kēiā. He kula kēiā. He kumu kēiā.279 bytes (14 words) - 19:55, 17 February 2012
- et al., (1986) for a listing of hosts in the vegetable-growing region of Kula, Maui. Barriers: Interrows of non-host species, row covers Predators and1 KB (196 words) - 03:21, 18 May 2009
- Aia 'au ma ke ka'a. Aia ke kumu ma ke kula. Pupuka ke kāne. Ma'i ka 'oe. Aia ke keiki nani me ke wahine nani. Aia ke keiki pupuka o ka 'ohana i ka1 KB (64 words) - 19:55, 17 February 2012
- This would be translated as "Dance they at the school." (Hula lākou i ke kula.) Here are a few verbs for you to play around with and make new sentences2 KB (414 words) - 21:43, 18 March 2012
- "not" or "no", as in... I do not make my bed. or I have no money. This, in Hawaiian, is possible with the word for no, which is a'ole. This word works a lot3 KB (206 words) - 19:55, 17 February 2012
- In Hawaiian, pronouns are called Papani. Papani, as in English are people, being I, You, We, etc. I suppose the first, and most obvious pronouns that you2 KB (216 words) - 22:56, 20 December 2015
- This section talks about the structure of Hawaiian, and simple things to note when learning the language. Hawaiian is a fairly simple language to learn, if12 KB (1,590 words) - 22:10, 21 April 2016
- to say short sentences and understanding the structure of Hawaiian. ka pua -flower ke kula -school ka 'ohana -family ka lani -heaven/sky ke kanaka -man2 KB (328 words) - 16:47, 31 August 2013
- Hawaiians being American, not every Hawaiian will have a Hawaiian first name. Hawaiian first names often come from Western names (such as Kimo, from Jim)6 KB (727 words) - 12:21, 28 July 2016
- redistribution is the Kula in the Milne Bay Province of Papua New Guinea. The Kula ring or Kula exchange is an old tradition of the Kula people in which540 bytes (139,577 words) - 16:35, 27 December 2013


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When Bomb Shelters Were All the Rageby Pat Zacharias, The Detroit News In America, the 1950s was a time of unprecedented prosperity, as well as unprecedented anxiety. The Russians had exploded a hydrogen bomb, touching off a nerve-wracking arms race, and had put cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin in space, setting off a frantic space race. American school children were being taught to "duck and cover" in case of nuclear attack and were being herded into school basements for terrifying bomb drills. Photo: Nuclear air raid drills were part of everyday life for schoolchildren in the late 1940s and early '50s. Children were taught to "duck and cover" ... Read More »
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Even before the 2016 Atlantic Hurricane Season started, the storms were forming. First there was Alex in January, then Bonnie in late May, then Colin and Danielle in June. Since Danielle's June 20 formation, there has been calm in the Atlantic. And meteorologist with AccuWeather, Ed Vallee says Sahara dust …Read More »
Statia under more stringent financial supervision
On July 19th Statia's executive council has been put on a yet more stringent form of financial super…
CBS: In 2015, Saba's population grew by nearly 140 to 1,947 residents
On 1 January 2016 the population of the Caribbean Netherlands totalled 24,548 inhabitants, slightly …
Having a State Representative for the BES Islands is a costly affair
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Willy Lucas, 20 years of service
Commissioner Rolando Wilson (left), on Wednesday, presented a certificate of appreciation to Willis …
Saba Carnival season kicks off this weekend
The 2016 Carnival season kicks off on Saba, Saturday, July 23. The weeklong activities will commence…
Recent News
Date Set For 10th Saba Triathlon
The Saba Triathlon Committee, in their July meeting, set the 2017 date for the iconic Saba Triathlon. The race will be held January 28th, 2017. "We couldn't be more excited," said new committee chairman Peter Johnson. "The event brings some world class talent to Saba's shores, in addition to tourists …Read More »
"Soft Skills" Training for Saba's Civil Servants
On July 11th -14th, fifteen civil servants of the Public Entity Saba participated in a four day workshop for Soft Skills Training. These skills include customer service, problem solving etc. On the last day of the workshop, the civil servants engaged in a team building exercise, and were separated into …Read More »
Suspect of fraud or embezzlement released. Investigation continues
On July 8th, 2016 a complaint was filed with the police on Saba by three persons who reported fraud or embezzlement. The declarants stated that a man had let them pay for a trip to St. Maarten but that the promised trip never took place. The man against whom the …Read More »
Winair reports 2015 net profit
The annual general meeting of Windward Islands Airways International Winair shareholders took place at Dr. Claude Wathey Legislative Hall on Wednesday, writes The Daily Herald. Present were the shareholders represented by St. Maarten's Council of Ministers, Dutch Ministry of Infrastructure and Environment Director of Aviation Dr. Rob Huyser, Dutch Government …Read More »


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2 Comments
Realtime comments disabled
Mrs_Roadrunner 1382 days ago
One spot, had a bald eagle swoop down in front of me snatching up a fish. Actually startled me!! Didnt expect it
Mrs_Roadrunner 1389 days ago
Only reason why I think this one is older is, it has color and it was not as small as the ones I usually see


text:
Final Cut Express 4 Essential Training
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text:
Skip to comments.Terri's Day challenges the nation to unify
Posted on 03/14/2006 11:28:51 AM PST by KevinNuPac
click here to read article
"In fact, when medical examiner Jon Thogmartin undertook the collection of Terri's medical records to launch his autopsy, he reported that he tracked her initial Humana Hospital-Northside admission records to Fox's office. According to Thogmartin, attorneys on both sides of the malpractice case conceded to the bulimia theory because there was nothing else 'to hang their hats on.'"
So: A consulting lawyer for Michael Schiavo had physical control of the medical records and made up the theory. Bad enough Fox was phishing the med records to contrive a malpractice case. But what was never revealed to the court or to the malpractice jury was the bone scan. I wonder if Fox had that document too? If he did, and suppressed it, the malpractice suit had to be premeditated flim-flam. Evidence that Terri was the victim of trauma would have gotten the suit thrown out of court on the spot.
I will hope and assume there is an innocent explanation for Mr. Fox's course of action; but it eludes me. For that matter, one looks in vain for evidence of integrity in any of Michael Schiavo's lawyers.
The same Gary Fox said this on Greta Van Sustenance's show last year:
GARY FOX, 1992 ATTORNEY FOR SCHIAVOS: "What happened, Greta, as best we know, is that Terri had a condition known as bulimia (search). It's an eating disorder. She'd had it for many years. She grew up as a chubby, overweight child, and over time, she coped with that condition by developing this eating disorder, bulimia."
***"One night, Michael and Terri had had dinner. And she had had a large meal, and not long after the meal, he heard a thumping sound in the couple's bathroom, went to investigate, found Terri lying on the floor of the bathroom. She had just purged, apparently, or vomited, binged, which is what bulimics do and had a heart attack. And by the time that fire rescue arrived at the Schiavo home, why, she had suffered severe brain damage."
Can you believe the guy had the nerve to say this? It could be shown to be patently false. His timeline is nothing like that of any testimony provided by either Michael, Terri's brother, Bobby, or her friend, Jackie.
Remarkable! My hat is off to Gary Fox. I don't believe I've ever seen so many lies in two short paragraphs.
Great advice. And it is getting easier to do since it appears their numbers are dropping....:)
God Bless everyone on this thread who stands up for life. The life God created.
If we don't deny an animal a drink of water, how do you arrive that it is possible that Terri should be denied a drink of water? Other than that, I liked your response.
If we don't deny an animal a drink of water, how do you arrive that it is possible that Terri should be denied a drink of water? Other than that, I liked your response.
There are facially-valid arguments that such action was legally right and proper. Many of them involve accepting some rather dubious claims as fact, and regarding certain legal theories as compelling over certain others which would seem they should take precedence.
Basically, I would regard that first issue as: if one were to view in the best possible light everything favorable to Michael, Felos, et al., and view in the worst possible light everything favorable to the Schindlers, would it be possible to conclude that Michael's actions were proper.
My interpretation is that if one really stretched the boundaries of "best possible light" and "worst possible light", one might conceivably be able to justify them. It would require stretching credulity to the breaking point, but it might be possible under such terms.
That having been said, my bigger point is that I see no satisfactory justification for the way the Bushes handled this, regardless of whether Michael's behavior was proper or not. It may be that Bush was told that Greer's cops would resist with bloodshed if need be to prevent Terri's rescue. Even if that's the case, I would suggest that bloodshed sufficient to uphold the law would be preferable to allowing open sedition.
Something good is happening in Minnesota, North Country Gazette reports.
MINNESOTAAs the first anniversary of the death of Terri Schiavo nears, the disabled Floridian whose feeding tube was removed by court order, Minnesota legislators debated a proposed new law that would require hospitals to give food and water to dying patients.
Hospice Minnesota opposes the bill.
Minnesota Bill Would Require Food, Water For Dying Patients
Nat Hentoff of the Village Voice, dean of the Left's civil libertarians, angrily called it "the longest public execution in American history." It was the saddest, too.
Lest we forget: "Judicial Murder" by Nat Hentoff, March 29, 2005
Terri's judicial murder was an evil milestone. It was a day of shame. America's decency and honor were stained by evil. Until the stain is overcome and we are made clean, we will never again be the City on the Hill. A country that will no longer care for the children, the weak, the aged, the ill has become a barbarian rabble.
The White Rose is a perfect symbol for Terri. We say this to the evidoers who tormented Terri and brought shame upon America: We will not shut up, we are your bad conscience; The White Rose will not leave you in peace.
I can't think of even one. That part was outside the law, which permits the removal of a medical device but not denial of mouth feeding. That was simply an arbitrary act of evil by George Greer. He had no authority to do it.
It was an act of malevolence.
I don't think their numbers are dropping per se. I think they lurk aplenty. Still, I think it's best to ignore them.
May God have mercy on us for the evil we do as a society (and individually as well).
The doctors ignored her written instructions, and saved her life during a heart attack. She then decided she wanted to live, and agreed to get a pace maker. Her family is furious, and insists she can't mean it. ...the resources could be better spent on people who still have a quality of life. I wonder why her family is putting so much pressure on her to hurry up and die.
Some people speak of their own future death in hypothetical terms, and say they'd want to die. But this is another example of the very real reaction people have when faced with the reality of death. She doesn't want her next breath to be her last. Her family needs to stop putting their own selfishness ahead of her life.
Well, c'mon, BB! Don't you know that at 94 it doesn't matter if you change your mind? If you have no "quality of life" left, then it's time to boot you out the door! (Sounds to me like the kids must have talked their mom into signing something she didn't really want to sign, and since she got resuscitated by mistake, they are furious that she's not dead yet. Looking for an inheritance, by chance?)
Meanwhile, Florida is STILL the Starvation State.
Greta emailed me in 2004. That was a few email accounts back. She said the starvation/dehydration was sickening or disgusting. I can't remember which it was. And, she's a scientologist to boot.
Thanks for your Nat Hentoff post. Terri's support crossed all demographic lines, a marketing coup but her support couldn't save her. Powerful people were hell bent on killing her.
Didn't dispirit me a bit. Matter of fact, I count his inaction on what was clearly a state affair to be one of the few conservative things the man has done.
Somehow this and all the elderly and sick that were euthanized in New Orleans so the caretakers could leave their job should be looked at as a continuation of our culture of death in this country.
The euthanized in New Orleans are under investigation. Louisiana at least has a tough Attorney General. Florida has a weenie AG who wants to be Florida's weenie Governor.
Terri was robbed and then murdered. We cannot forget about the robbery of over half a million dollars. Terri's was the first death order by a judge issued for a NON-CONVICT who wasn't on death row. The first. That order violated the Florida Statutes. That wasn't the only violation by Judge Greer.
Violations against Terri are page after page long. The US Justice Dept. is conducting an investigation currently but if it's a faux investigation, the GOP will simply lose more members.
Check this out. Dr. Dave Weldon from Florida is one of the best congressmen we have in DC.
I sure didn't like hearing what those nurses and caretakers did there.
They had claimed to do that because of a state law that said they had to be dead to legally leave, SO THEY KILLED THEM ALL.
Horrible things were done.
I take that as a question. The answer would be no, unless one is deceived or are a deceiver. Pardon my Christianity, but the bible speaks of both. You have seen the result of opposite thinking.(death) Not even a humane death at that.
I bookmarked this new web site which was created by first string Terri supporters. There's a lot of good updates and resource material at this site. Too many people are dying before their time.
Just the beginning IMO. The older population will be the dominant voting population in this country in the next 20 or so years, and people love to vote themselves all kinds of goodies at others expense.
With so few people supporting a top heavy elderly population, I am sure the world actually would embrace a nice bird flu that would remove the elderly and weak from out responsibility. If the Bird flu don't kill them off, I think their heirs sure will be thinking about it.
The burden on the young might get unbearable.
The US Justice Dept. is conducting an investigation currently but if it's a faux investigation
Okay whatever you say.
the GOP will simply lose more members.
If that means chasing off kooks and returning to a more limited government platform, less interference into the affairs of the separate and sovereign states, and actually taking government out of familial decisions then I may rejoin the party. Doubtful but anything's possible.
No billbears, slavery isn't coming back anytime soon. Sorry. The next best thing you got going for you now is State sponsored murder, which I see you support.
Cute. Who in their right mind would want that? But that's about all you've got isn't it? One liners. Luckily most federal politicians have backed away from this current issue.
The next best thing you got going for you now is State sponsored murder, which I see you support
Again another assumption. I don't support anything of the sort. However I don't think 537 political hacks or 9 Justices in Washington know any better about the issue than I would. Of course, Justice Scalia stated that already didn't he?
Let's stop beating around the bush. You wanted Terri dead. Right?
That brings back poignant memories of the good old days. But even then we had to fight every inch of the way just as we are fighting the death culture for people like Terri.
From Dory
This Saturday, March 18th, is the anniversary of the day Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed. She died thirteen days later, on March 31st. The public airing of Terri's situation caused us to consider and debate profound issues of life and death. We asked important questions. What is life? What makes it precious? What makes life, "worth living"? What is the difference between medical intervention and ordinary care, and when, if ever, can they ethically be withdrawn? When, if ever, should the dying be treated differently than the profoundly disabled? At our best, we discussed these things on our blogs thoughtfully and graciously, in spite of the emotionally-charged atmosphere. At our worst, we angrily hurled insults and attacks at the "other side".
Blogger's Best for Terri Schiavo
Terri after the attack and before bioethicking.
Thank you, Ohioan.
CLEARWATER, March 16, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) The family of Terri Schindler Schiavo are working to establish a national day of remembrance in her name to commemorate the growing number of patients who are being killed in hospitals by removal of food and hydration assistance. Robert Schindler and National Urban Policy Action Council president Kevin Fobbs have joined forces in an effort to help disabled people and other avoid Terri's fate.
The goal is to gather a million signatures to petition state officials to establish March 31 as a national day of remembrance, similar to the annual remembrance of the anniversary of the abortion decision, Roe v. Wade.
Terri Schiavos legacy has taught us that life is precious and should be protected, Fobbs, also a Michigan radio talk show host, said.
Schindler Family Seek to Establish National Day of Remembrance
You're right in your assessment of how things played out. A swamp judge weilded more power than the Executive and Legislative branches put together. And the liberals squeeled with delight.
Hear hear, BykrBayb.
But "liberals" and "squeeled" are indistinguishable.
Katherine Harris pro-life candidate
Thank you, 8mm.
Whoops, thanks were to you, 8mm.
HMM, not sure what to think about this. However, I think that Terri's death was a day that should be remembered in our country as a day we all got to see that Euthanasia is alive and well in this grand old USA!
What I keep in mind is the incredible parallel to Easter which will never be the same for me. It will be a permanent reminder of what happened to Terri and what will happen to many of us if we do not learn and be vigilant.
I agree about Bush's poll numbers. Our govt just failed to see that we Americans saw them let a innocent woman be put to death because one pathetic judge in Florida says she deserved to die. I for one lost a lot of faith in Bush after that. I won't go as far to say bad things about Bush here cause I want to stay a member and I love FR, but my opinion on the entire administration and the Governor of Florida changed drastically the day Terri died.
We should have a Michael Schiavo Law too, that would make it a felony for a husband to petition a government court to murder his wife. Any judge who grants such a petition would be guilty of murder.
I'm glad you liked that pic of Terri. It's been floating around on various Terri threads recently, but I can't claim credit for finding it. Many of us thought it was important for people who believe the lies of the media (that Terri was in such bad shape all those years) to see that Terri was well on her way to recovery when Michael suddenly reversed course after the malpractice money came in. She was getting rehab back then. It's horrible that Michael was allowed to continue his guardianship of Terri.
If Michael's claim that oral feeding and hydration would have 0.00000000% chance of success were true, then the refusal to allow it would have denied Terri nothing. Further, if Michael were doing everything possible to improve Terri's condition (and if the treatments Michael was refusing would have offered no benefit, he would have been), there would be no basis for allowing the parents to inflict ineffective treatments upon Terri.
I think we would both agree that the treatments Michael was refusing would have had some significant probability of success. If, however, one were to view the testimony of Michael's "experts" in the most favorable light, and those of the Shindlers' in the least favorable light, it would be possible for a reasonable person to conclude that the proposed treatments would offer no benefit to Terri.
I don't think that a reasonable person who was familiar with all of Michael's words and deeds, or those of some of his "experts", would regard them as credible. But if one accepts them as truth, then Michael's actions may be justifiable.
Suppose that Terri's esophagus had been severed, whether by a bullet wound or other cause, such that her mouth was no longer connected to her stomach. Would it be appropriate to require that oral feeding/hydration be attempted in such case?
Michael's "experts" basically claimed that given Terri's condition, oral feeding/hydration would have no greater likelihood of success than if her esophagus had been severed. I don't think a reasonable person who knew about Michael and his "experts" would find such a claim credible, but if such claim was true, and if Terri had indeed expressed a clear and unambiguous desire not to be gastrostomically fed if she were incapacitated, then Michael's actions would have been legal and proper.
Of course, if I had received 270 electoral votes last election I'd be President right now, but I didn't so I'm not.
"Squeeled?" Did I really spell it that way? Oh well, it sounds the same either way. : )
Judge Greer had no authority to prohibit giving Terri water and food by hand. He simply ordered it by judicial fiat. It was a repugnant and unlawful act.
To justify such cruelty is depraved.
Yes, you did. It was SO cute <g>
Ah, the delicious pitfalls of English spelling. You know the song, "It's almost like falling in love"? Think of this line: "And from the way that I feel when that bell starts to peal..." There we have a nice hard E sound spelled both E-E and E-A. But think if we'd written it, "And from the way that I feel when that BELLE starts to PEEL" -- then we'd be in a burlesque house.
Dunno about anyone else, but I make most of my spelling errors when I'm tired and typing fast. The odd thing is, most of the mistakes are phonetic, like squeel.
That sounds a-peeling
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text:
The Hunger Games: Mockingjay Part 1: In the event that you've seen the billbard above and wondered what, exactly, it was advertising, it's part of a viral campaign for The Hunger Games: Mockingjay – Part 1. The third installment in the series starring Jennifer Lawrence is heading to theaters on November 21, and in advance of its release, billboards have gone up in various locations, depicting so-called "district heroes" as determined by the authorities in the movies; note the graffiti: a "Mockingjay" symbol associated with Lawrence's character. [Coming Soon]
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Google Docs now works offlinePocket-lint
Google Docs now works offline, enabling multiple users to make amendments to documents saved locally before being updated when you go back to an internet connection.
Multiple users will be able to edit the same document so long as it is saved in Google Drive, Google's cloud storage service. Google has even announced that Google Drive will now be compatible with Apple devices too, so someone could be working on the same document from Google Drive on a computer, while someone else could be making amendments to the same file via an iPad.
Any adjustments made to a doc while you have an internet connection will be made instantly, while any offline will automatically be synched once you regain a Wi-Fi or network connection without your needing to do anything.
Documents can be searched for by keywords, while photos can also be searched for using image recognition. For example, type in pyramid and Google Drive will pull up any files that match that description (eg, your photos from your trip to see the Egyptian pyramids).
Google Drive will be available to the iOS platform from today after being announced at the Google I/O event in San Francisco.
Do you use Google Docs? What do you make of being able to work offline? Let us know below.
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Call for Nominations to Serve on NBDE and NBDHE Test Specification Review Panels
Practice analysis activities are underway to help establish the test content of the National Board Dental Examination Part II (NBDE Part II) and National Board Dental Hygiene Examination (NBDHE). As part of this effort, separate ad hoc panels of subject matter experts will be convened to review preliminary test specifications for these examinations, based on practice analysis survey findings. Panelists will use this information to make recommendations to the JCNDE concerning the number of test items to allocate toward specific subject areas. Both panels will be convened in the third or fourth quarter of 2016.
It is anticipated that each panel will consist of a total of nine members. Panelists will be selected based on individual qualifications and the general requirements indicated in the Call for Nominations to Serve on the NBDE and NBDHE Test Specification Review Panels (PDF). Please download the document for detailed information.
INBDE Implementation Plan
The INBDE implementation plan is available. It provides stakeholders and communities of interest with information regarding how INBDE implementation will occur, the information that will be made available to help facilitate the transition, and recommended actions for stakeholders and communities of interest. Please download and review the INBDE Implementation Plan (PDF) now.
The JCNDE meets once a year and information on actions taken at the April 2015 JCNDE meeting are now available. The most recent and earlier reports can be downloaded on the Unofficial Reports page.
The National Board Dental exam items are not based on specific textbooks. Test Construction committees use the following resources:


text:
The Forge
Discover an archictectural masterpiece of sustainable design that houses an intimate 300 capacity music venue. While you are there, sample Latin American street food in the Forge Cantina upstairs, with food ranging from Colombian arepas to Cuban sandwiches, Brazilian feijoada and Peruvian perihuela.
This content has been supplied by The Forge
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Food and DrinkValid from 3 May 2016 to 31 July 2016
This offer is available from May 3, 2016 until July 31, 2016, subject to availability as displayed in the booking interface. Not available in conjunction with other offers. Offer excludes service.
Venue Details & Map
The Forge
- Address
3-7 Delancey StreetPrimrose HillLondonNW1 7NL
- Telephone:
- +44 (0)20 7383 7808
My girlfriend and I attended the Viva Colombia event and we loved it. Great food, excellent service, amazing live music.more
Last night I attended a music gig at the Forge. It's quite small and very intimate music venue in the heart of Camden Town. It has great vibe and is perfect for any acoustic/instrumental gigs. The band I went to see...The Irrepressibles did sound amazing!!!
The only downside is that if you are sat closer to the end you can hear all the noise from them bar that it situated close by...that when...more


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Hi folks! 4 Questions, i hope you can help me out! I am using 2.41 on WP3.
1. Can someone tell me how to change the size of the Thumbnails in the featured Content Box? Tried WP->Media->My Custom Size, tried Thumbnail Regenerator and nothing happend, the pictures stay small
2. Is it possible to show featured posts in descending order (not random, because random is default i guess)
3. How can i make all my posts to featured content, letting them show up right after i wrote them (like in the old version after putting them into the "featured" category)
4. Why are my Thumbnails only on the Main Page but when i open my Post, there is only text (older versions had the picture in the preview and the full content).
Ty for helping! if you need more Information -> Ask me!
The WebSite is http://www.limpster.de.vu (if it helps xD)


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An unassuming hotel which you could easily walk past without noticing, but once inside opens into a lovely courtyard with fountain and is an oasis of tranquility. The rooms are quite small but tastefully fitted out with everything you need. We had a first floor room at the back and had no issues with noise. Helpful deck staff and free internet. The breakfast was fine but held in a small basement breakfast room. The hotel has no restaurant but is just a few steps away from a street full of Tapas bars and restaurants. We took a bus to the Alhambra from a stop about 5 minutes walk away and a taxi back (they are cheap). Don't attempt to drive in Granada but leave the car in a parking garage. We used the one in Calle Angel Ganivet which is just round the corner from the hotel and quite easy to find (with GPS). Parking is expensive, about 34 euro for 2 days.
- Official Description (provided by the hotel):
- This new small hotel in the city centrethe was originally a Palace in the 16th century. It has been skilfully restored; retaining most of its original architectural features, and is now a delightful nineteen room inn. The rooms are beautifully decorated, all ensuited, with air conditioning, minibar, satellite television, safe, internet access and hairdryer and anti-fog mirrors in bathrooms. They surround a central, typically Granadian columned patio/courtyard. There are standard or superior double rooms, a junior suite and a lovely superior deluxe. ... more less
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- Also Known As:
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