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Talk:Age of Discovery
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- 1 Improvement drive
- 2 Ending in the 17th century
- 3 Conquest of Siberia
- 4 Ioann IV the Terrible
- 5 Before the Portuguese?
- 6 what date and month was Ferdinand Magellan born
- 7 Exploration by land
- 8 James Cook
- 9 Conquest of Siberia
- 10 Chinese Exploration
- 11 Explorers do be used as example
- 12 Change the name of this article to "Age of Exploration"?
- 13 What was in it for the Mongols?
- 14 Iberocentric
- 15 Possible deletion of Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact article
- 16 Quality of sources
- 17 Vikings
- 18 Chapters in human history.
- 19 Recent edits (October 2009) as Wikipedia:COATRACK
- 20 Portraits of notable explorers
- 21 Torres
- 22 Changing the lead image
- 23 GA Review
- 24 Native Americans-Vikings-Ice Age
- 25 Title change
- 26 can someone please answer this question for me please
- 27 Chinese missions
- 28 Definition and scope of the Age of Discovery
- 29 Copyright problem removed
- 30 External links modified
Improvement drive[edit]
A related topic, spice trade, is currently nominated on WP:IDRIVE. Support or comment on the nomination there if you are interested.--Fenice 09:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Have to mention the Islamic age of discovery and the Chinese age of discovery.
Or at least show the webpage links of those 2 earlier legacies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CEOofA (talk • contribs) 15:08, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Ending in the 17th century[edit]
The age of exploration did not end in the 1600s as the opening portion of the article says. The South Pacific was still being explored in the 1850s by the American navy. --Aj4444 (talk) 00:03, 31 July 2009 (UTC)--Aj4444 (talk) 21:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Conquest of Siberia[edit]
See also History_of_Siberia#Yermak_and_the_Cossacks --ajvol 13:16, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Ioann IV the Terrible[edit]
If you ranames Ioann IV the Terrible to Ivan IV the Terrible, why not to rename Nicolas II to Nikolay II?--Nixer 12:40, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
- I don't follow your analogy. In both cases, I am following the common English-language usage. They are known in English as Ivan and Nicholas, respectively. I have literally never seen Ioann in an English-language text by a native speaker. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:46, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
- Nicholas is neither an official name, nor a popular.--Nixer 14:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I follow that remark. Nicholas is the normal name of in English for tsars named Николай. See, for example, http://www.nicholasandalexandra.com/ (a site developed jointly with the Hermitage Museum), Nicholas and Alexandra (bestselling book by Robert K. Massie, and a 1971 film based on that book). -- Jmabel | Talk 00:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
- Nicholas is neither an official name, nor a popular.--Nixer 14:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- Look at this for example: [1] In 1570 there appeared the official mentioning of the meeting between Russian Tsar Ioann (IV) the Terrible and Calvinist Pastor Rockita who arrived from Poland as a member of the delegation of king Sigizmund August.. Or here:[2] There are the remains of Russian Emperors from Peter I to Nikolai II and members of their families (excluding Peter II and Ioann IV). Here: [3] for example, Ioann IV wrote decrees to the CyrilloBeloozersk monastery against the disorders that were After the terrible Moscow fire o 1547 Ioann IV publicly addressed Metropolitan Macarius with these words: Here are not tsars, but patriarchs: http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/resources/hierarchs/russia.htm]--Nixer 00:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Third Opinion[edit]
Since you continue to revert me, and I do not feel you have presented a good case to do so, I will bring this to WP:3O [added by Jmabel]
- I found this request for a third opinion in the dispute and budding edit war between Jmabel and Nixer. I have reviewed the main page, this talk page, and the edit histories, as well as the references given. My ruling on the matter is that this is the English language Wikepedia, and that since the vast majority of native speakers of English, in trying to find information about a certain person, will do a search for "Ivan" and not "Ioann" (never heard of it before today), this article should refer to the person as "Ivan" in all of the main references. (I have no objections to parenthetical references, such as this, noting that the person's name is sometimes spelled "Ioann".) Nixer, please stop reverting the page to the "Ioann" form. Feel free to link this page to the Russian language Wikipedia, but stop trying to change the way the English-speaking world spells the name. [I will delete the request for a third opinion, and I hope this settles the dispute.] Aumakua 03:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
- I cited the sources above, which call him Ioann. Also a text under picture in the Ivan the Terrible article calls him Ioann (I am not the author of this text). It indicates that many people are more fomiliar with this name. Besides it is more correct.--Nixer 05:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
- While I don't have 'Googlecountitis' and would never make a final decision based solely on that, I think it is informative to see what the number is, sometimes. A Google search on English pages (this is the English Wikipedia after all) for "Ivan the terrible" and "Ioann the terrible" shows a difference of about 356 THOUSAND to 145. Go convince those 356 THOUSAND people that a name they've never heard of is "more correct" and get back to us. Meanwhile, I've given my third opinion, which is the first and hopefully the last step in dispute resolution between reasonable people. If you absolutely insist that it has to say "Ioann" here, take it up with a mediator -- but do not revert it to Ioann unless you can show a lot better reason than you have so far, and get a consensus that you are right, first. This is my last word on the subject; I just dropped in to try to help settle a dispute, not to get embroiled in it. Aumakua 06:54, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Before the Portuguese?[edit]
The Portuguese voyages in the Atlantic were preceded by the Aragonese voyages and conquests in the Western Mediterranean and in parts of the Atlantic, such as the Canary Islands. Some Italian cities (which had built their own naval empires in the Eastern Mediterranean, as an offshoot of the Crusades) also participated in the early voyages of the Portuguese. It might be good to make a reference to these precursors and collaborators of the Age of Discoveries. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 18.104.22.168 (talk • contribs) 20 Jan 2006.
- Largely concur, although that characterization "Aragonese" seems misleading. Aragon itself was inland. The mariners in territories ruled by the Crown of Aragon were Catalan, Valencian, or Balear. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
querer comparer navegação med que os pre medievais ja faziam e canárias com circunavegação fala sério né sagres ficava onde?magalhães era espanhol?aceita que dói menos — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14C:DA94:730:4412:3C19:6F2F:2A6 (talk) 00:23, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
até os barbarous Vikings foram mais longe nesse aspect anterior outra vcs acabaram com os guanches eram fossil vivo dos primeiros caucasoides — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14C:DA94:730:4412:3C19:6F2F:2A6 (talk) 00:24, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
what date and month was Ferdinand Magellan born[edit]
This section head was here with no question. The Ferdinand Magellan article says spring 1480. I doubt anything more accurate is known. - Jmabel | Talk 06:18, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Um, just so you know, Native Americans were in America waaaaaayyyyyy before Columbus "discovered" it. talk
- And oxygen existed for billions of years before Lavoisier "discovered" it. These things always relate to a particular perspective. - Jmabel | Talk 23:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
sim os povos locais ja sabiam mas quem sabia de todos eles simultaneamente primeiro numa rede de dados vasta grande e pioneira catalogada registrada organizada etc vc? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14C:DA94:730:4412:3C19:6F2F:2A6 (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Exploration by land[edit]
Should exploration by land section be merged with conquest of Siberia?--Nixer 09:46, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
James Cook[edit]
I notice that James Cook was added to the lead paragraph, and since it was there I linked it. Certainly an important explorer, but isn't he a bit late for the era we are mainly talking about? One could just as well continue it down to Lord Franklin. Or Henry Morton Stanley. - Jmabel | Talk 05:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- He certainly doesn't belong there in the way that this article is defined, covering discoveries only up through the early 1600s. I'm going to delete him. He is mentioned at a later point in the article, though I'll leave that since it's clearly presented an afterthought to give greater context to the specific period covered here. 126.96.36.199 16:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
canal pobre coitado os ibericos ja tinham descoberto java grande nem batavos pos I reich foram tão tardios e caroneiros — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14C:DA94:730:4412:3C19:6F2F:2A6 (talk) 00:29, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Conquest of Siberia[edit]
I don't agree to attribute it to the Age of Discovery,at least the Mongols had know perfectly the Siberia before the russian to conquer it.It is only a reconquer not a conquer.Ksyrie December 11, 2006
- Then, inca people knew well where America is, so they 'discovered' it? Also, mongols have never wandered on a distance to Bering Strait, Kamchatka, Chukotka, and so on. They were discovered by people like Semen Dezhnev, Vitus Bering, Yerofey Khabarov, etc.Garret Beaumain (talk) 05:40, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Chinese Exploration[edit]
Although very interesting and important, the section "Chinese Exploration" has - to my opinion - not much to do with the "Age of Discovery", which is a western/European development in history. I suggest it to split the section "Chinese Exploration" into a new article. Demophon 06:27, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
- I would tend to agree. - SimonP 12:52, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
- I think I'll be up to the challenge of creating a new article for it.--PericlesofAthens 19:24, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
- Done.--PericlesofAthens 19:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
- I think I'll be up to the challenge of creating a new article for it.--PericlesofAthens 19:24, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Explorers do be used as example[edit]
Following the removal of some names by Jim.henderson, I believe we should still use Pedro Alvares Cabral since he was the first European to reach what is now Brazil. Although he is less famous, we should not make him less famous by not using him as an example. SalvadorFernandesZarco
- Actually it was User:SimonP who removed that name and a great many others. I wouldn't mind taking credit for it, but we mustn't claim someone else's good work. Where I went wrong was in leaving Cabral and his fellows in the intro. The intro should be short, and this worthy but unfortunately little known (among English speakers) figure ought to be omitted from it. Indeed, to improve the list in the introductory paragraph, I would trim out both Cabral and Cabot. We can't put every brave and clever 16th century explorer in the intro; that's why we have a whole article rather than just a long intro. Besides, if I'm counting correctly, Cabral's name is mentioned five times, in more than one section of the article and a caption. That's plenty. To give the fellow full justice requires giving him a whole article; just not this one. Jim.henderson 23:52, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
pinzon discovered brazil before cabral — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14C:DA94:730:4412:3C19:6F2F:2A6 (talk) 00:33, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Change the name of this article to "Age of Exploration"?[edit]
Due to the fact that the lands that were explored by europeans during this age were already "discovered" (if you will) by native peoples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 04:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree, that is a good point. Also "Age of Exploration" seems to be the more common term.
- No, all those places were also already explored by those natives, or what, does someone think there were no eaylier explorations? What matters is, some particular little culture reached out and discovered the geography of the whole world, or anyway explored and opened up the final connections. The Chinese carried out several long range voyages of discovery, the Arabs did a bunch more, and eventually the Europeans pretty much finished discovering the world. This is the last chapter of that long story. Jim.henderson (talk) 01:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
- The name of this page is dictated both by the description at the time, and then in both popular and academic history. All three of these descriptions are Eurocentric. The fact that the European discovery of the world was encyclopedically significant in itself (much as say the cultural-economic integration of Africa or Siberia into the world economy, or the international Chinese diaspora are significant), and that the popular and academic discourses of Eurocentric or European Exceptionalism in the European discovery of the world are encyclopedically significant). Ie: the ideology is commonly known by the page name, and is encyclopedically significant as an ideology as well as a description of a series of events.
- The European "Age of Discovery" or "Age of Exploration" also marked the period of the development of a world spanning international long distance trade economy which was dominated by Europeans, and a subsequent tool for the Europeans to economically appropriate and politically dominate the world. There's a uniqueness in human history, through
- The global impact, as opposed to the regional impact of (equivalent late medieval & early modern) Arabic, Indian, Central Asian or Chinese trade economies and trade diasporas
- The permanency and totality of European Colonisation which resulted.
- The current article sucks at expressing these things. When I decided to become an editor, it was a mishmash of pro-Portugese and pro-Spanish ideology surrounding the discovery of the Americas. The current article doesn't adequately discuss the impact of African or Indian economics, or the later Spice Island or Asian economies on discovery. There's a vastly insufficient coverage of the Eurocentrism of the Term, of equivalent moments of long distance trade integration and colonisation (Arabic, Indian, Chinese Coastal Diaspora, Polynesian Oceanic Diaspora would be the central comparisons due to the late medieval / early modern period and the role of trade), or of why when the Europeans did it, it was significant (hint: not that they're Europeans, but that they did it to everyone in the world at the same time). Finally, sources! Academic historians have been tearing these Eurocentric concepts apart for about 60 years now. We're vastly undersourced.
Fifelfoo (talk) 02:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
All right; so the question of changing the name to "exploration" seems settled since exploration is the method to discover things, while discovery is what you get from a successful exploration. Changing the name isn't going to improve things since a more precise name would also have to be much longer and confusing and less useful to readers. Your other points are either precisely on target (like, undersourced) or belong in another section. Jim.henderson (talk) 16:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
- Personally, I think a title change to something like Age of Exploration or Age of European Exploration would make more sense, considering the discussion below about the article which precedes this article chronologically. Thegreatdr (talk) 23:50, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- The issue of "exploration" or "discovery" is an important one. "Discovery" as used here does not refer to finding an uninhabited land that no one knew existed; it refers to land with occupants who lost all their rights to ownership because European Christians claimed it and took it by force; this included Genocide on a mass scale. One would have to discuss these issues as they are in a legal sense, as this is the basis of US federal Indian law to this day: the Doctrine of Discovery. The Wikipedia article on that subject goes into it a little bit; so should this. Ebanony (talk) 07:17, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
What was in it for the Mongols?[edit]
The article says: "Mongol states also unified much of Eurasia creating trade routes and communication lines stretching from the Middle East to China.[citation needed] A series of Europeans took advantage of these to explore eastwards."
How did the Europeans "take advantage" of the trade routes? The Mongols must have had some reason for letting them through. Can someone please explain what was in it for the Mongols? HeWasCalledYClept (talk) 17:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- Trade. There's not much point in establishing trade routes if you don't let anyone follow them. Iapetus (talk) 17:10, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Well, of course the article is centered on Iberia. That was the center of the action. A history of papermaking is Sinocentric, of Islam, arabocentric, of Organic Chemistry, Germanocentric, and of the initial populating of the world, Afrocentric, isn't it? Many developments develop from a particular center and no use trying to pump up marginal areas for fairness. The heroic (or villainous) captains who discovered the world 4, 5, 6 centuries ago were mostly Iberians, mostly working for Iberian kings. The linked Portugal article goes into some of the reasons for this, and this article is not the one that should try to provide great detail about it, because this is the one about how the world was discovered. Jim.henderson (talk) 16:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
- There's a difference between Ibero-centrism, which is justified, and Spanish and Portuguese propaganda. Previous versions of these articles made very, very strong equations between the late medieval and early modern Kingdoms of the Iberian peninsular and modern Iberian nationalist politics. They also included needlessly long lists of individual Iberians without explaining the Gold, Silver, Slave, Colonial, Cloth or Spice trades. The article focused almost exclusively on the discovery and exploitation of South America without dealing with Portugal's major African, Indian and Spice Island trading interests. Additionally, there was no explanation of causes, but rather a chronicle of happenstance.
- We should have an Ibero-centric article, which briefly discusses the displacement of Germanic and Russian interior trade routes, and Italian mediterranean trade routes; which also deals briefly with the decay and destruction of pre-Columbian societies, as it relates to the generation of Trans-oceanic colonies and trade. More importantly the relationship between Portuguese and African, Indian and Spice Island city-states / merchant-states needs to be increased, as does the general impact of increased access to commodities.Fifelfoo (talk) 03:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
meu filho dor de cotovelo dói né portugueses e espanhois só não permaneceram no topo por culpa dos teus donos — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14C:DA94:730:4412:3C19:6F2F:2A6 (talk) 00:34, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Possible deletion of Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact article[edit]
Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact will be suggested for deletion if none of its information is able to be included within this article, since it is a perfect example of Wikipedia:Content forking. If anyone involved in this article feels that it should be deleted post haste, go for it. I'm giving the editors of that article until June 29 before I go forward with its deletion, in case you all think it should exist within wikipedia, and wish to include some of its content in this article. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:36, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- These articles cover almost completely different subject matters and are both perfectly valid. There is some overlap, but it is pretty small. The timeframes and geographic scope are both very different. There is no reason they shouldn't continue pretty much as they are. - SimonP (talk) 20:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- I'd have thought that Europeans (and others) exploring America and elswhere in the 15th century would have significant overlap with this article. But that's not reason for deletion. The problem is that this article mentions Europeans discovered America in 1492 or later (accepted by a majority of historians), while the other article going into possible exploration prior to 1492 (not accepted by a majority of historians, therefore following various individual points of view (POV)) which conflict with this article. Thegreatdr (talk) 20:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- To my knowledge no historians currently believe that the Americas were only discovered in 1492. L'Anse aux Meadows is pretty incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. There is no claim in this article that Columbus was the first to reach America. Being first is really beside the point anyway. The importance of the Age of Discovery is not that a boat managed to make it across the ocean, but rather that when that boat returned information of the wider world was permanently incorporate into the European body of knowledge and led to permanent links between the continents. That is the series of discoveries that this page is all about. Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contacts are interesting, but they are merely curiosities that never had a wider effect on the history of the world. - SimonP (talk) 20:34, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- That's not true according to some of the sources of the other article, which state the European explorers had maps and second hand knowledge of the New World/Africa/southeast Asia before they even left Europe, furthering their curiosity. Anyhow, the decision will be up to the masses. Thegreatdr (talk) 20:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- I don't thing Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact should be deleted. While the content of that article is interesting, it discusses something of fundamentally different historical importance than this one. Consider the early contact (meaning not covered by this article) Did those early contacts fundamentally alter the way of life of the indigenous peoples of the Americas? Did that result in permanent demographic and cultural change? If we were to go back in time and prevent those old contacts from happening, would the world today be fundamentally different? The answer to all three of those questions is no. Asking those questions of the Age of Discovery gives the answer yes. That's why Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact should not be deleted. Lumping it in here gives too much importance to events that, in a macrohistorical context, were minor. In addition, while it is conceivable (although probably unprovable) to suppose that Columbus (or whoever) had knowledge of earlier accidental discoveries of the Americas, it is hard to believe that Columbus could have known about an ancient exchange of sweet potatoes and chickens between the Pacific and South America. Basically, the amount of fuss people make about Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact is way out of proportion to any actual historical impact it had. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 23:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- Possibly, and you make a good point Miss Madeline, as always. But wouldn't that make the name of this article moot? How can any contact, European or otherwise, logically precede the Age of Discovery? I saw the above discussion, and after today's discussion on the other article's deletion, agree that this article has to renamed somehow. Thegreatdr (talk) 23:48, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think it should be renamed. That some discoveries happened beforehand does not mean that the main Age of Discovery isn't still a distinct period in human history. Saying that the Age of Discovery is an incorrect name because there were some minor pre-Columbian contacts is like saying the Industrial Revolution has to be renamed because of the discovery of the Baghdad Battery. - SimonP (talk) 02:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- Possibly, and you make a good point Miss Madeline, as always. But wouldn't that make the name of this article moot? How can any contact, European or otherwise, logically precede the Age of Discovery? I saw the above discussion, and after today's discussion on the other article's deletion, agree that this article has to renamed somehow. Thegreatdr (talk) 23:48, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- I don't thing Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact should be deleted. While the content of that article is interesting, it discusses something of fundamentally different historical importance than this one. Consider the early contact (meaning not covered by this article) Did those early contacts fundamentally alter the way of life of the indigenous peoples of the Americas? Did that result in permanent demographic and cultural change? If we were to go back in time and prevent those old contacts from happening, would the world today be fundamentally different? The answer to all three of those questions is no. Asking those questions of the Age of Discovery gives the answer yes. That's why Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact should not be deleted. Lumping it in here gives too much importance to events that, in a macrohistorical context, were minor. In addition, while it is conceivable (although probably unprovable) to suppose that Columbus (or whoever) had knowledge of earlier accidental discoveries of the Americas, it is hard to believe that Columbus could have known about an ancient exchange of sweet potatoes and chickens between the Pacific and South America. Basically, the amount of fuss people make about Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact is way out of proportion to any actual historical impact it had. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 23:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- That's not true according to some of the sources of the other article, which state the European explorers had maps and second hand knowledge of the New World/Africa/southeast Asia before they even left Europe, furthering their curiosity. Anyhow, the decision will be up to the masses. Thegreatdr (talk) 20:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- To my knowledge no historians currently believe that the Americas were only discovered in 1492. L'Anse aux Meadows is pretty incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. There is no claim in this article that Columbus was the first to reach America. Being first is really beside the point anyway. The importance of the Age of Discovery is not that a boat managed to make it across the ocean, but rather that when that boat returned information of the wider world was permanently incorporate into the European body of knowledge and led to permanent links between the continents. That is the series of discoveries that this page is all about. Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contacts are interesting, but they are merely curiosities that never had a wider effect on the history of the world. - SimonP (talk) 20:34, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- I'd have thought that Europeans (and others) exploring America and elswhere in the 15th century would have significant overlap with this article. But that's not reason for deletion. The problem is that this article mentions Europeans discovered America in 1492 or later (accepted by a majority of historians), while the other article going into possible exploration prior to 1492 (not accepted by a majority of historians, therefore following various individual points of view (POV)) which conflict with this article. Thegreatdr (talk) 20:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
(indent reset) There shouldn't be a rename. The first discoverer of many places (meaning the first person ever to reach that place) happened so long ago as to be unnamable. Anybody know the name of the first human ever to see North America? Is there any way of finding out? While such a person definitely existed, we know nothing about them other than that they were the first person to see North America and that they lived thousands of years ago. This applies to most places in the world, I suspect. But is creating a list of such anonymous discoveries useful? Even if the indigenous people of such a location have a legend about the discovery, there is no guarantee that the current indigenous people of a location are the first people ever to live there (for example, in many Inuit lands the Dorset people preceeded them). I'll agree that a list of legends about the discovery of places might be useful. In addition, the anonymous first people to reach most places might not have been out exploring deliberately; ie they were just hunting/making war/etc and just found a new place. In most cases, the Europeans crossing the oceans were actually looking for something, whether it be China, gold, spices, or a way around the land in their way. Since the European "discoverers" were in most cases actually looking for something, while the anonymous first discoverer might not have, this article should be Age of Discovery because they found something when deliberately looking. Including a note that the European "discoverers" were usually not the first person to reach the places they discovered would form an excellent paragraph. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 02:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Quality of sources[edit]
I reverted a good faith edit by a user who cited repeatedly from a generalist textbook aimed at an undergraduate audience. A number of dubious assertions in the article were unsupported (such as the Papacy's interest in Prester John in an early modern context), or the role of the black death in relation to long distance trade (for example, I've read numerous instances that the extension of cash wage labour throughout europe as a result of the black death increased long distance trade). Other statements in the article, that are generally agreed facts, are inadequately supported by citing a textbook that does not deal with the specific subject matter of the article.Fifelfoo (talk) 03:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- For an article like this one that is a broad overview of a huge subject, a generalist text book is a perfectly valid source. We should try to have some more diversity of sources, but unfortunately that is the only one I had on hand yesterday. You should also have a look at WP:CITE, there is no need to reference basic facts that everyone agrees with and are trivial to verify. That Vasco de Gama reached India in 1498 is not the sort of fact that needs to be referenced, and adding cite tags to sentences like that is just pedantic. - SimonP (talk) 13:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- As to the specific factual issues, I do agree that the Papacy being the one hunting Prester John is inaccurate and I've changed that reference. As to the Black Death, I don't think it can be argued that at least for a few decades it severely curtailed European trade and exploration. There are many scholars who believe that in the long term it might have boosted the European economy, but that is not what that sentence is talking about. The exact quote from the textbook that I used to reference that sentence is "In the middle of the 14th century, however, the overland route to China was severed by a conjunction of the Black Death, the vigorous expansion of the Ottoman Turks, and the overthrow of the Mongol dynasty in China." - SimonP (talk) 13:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- The quality of a two of your citations is highly dubious, and fails to meet required standards. Other citations are acceptable, but its poor form to single source so many. Survey course level textbooks are of equivalent authority to encyclopaedia, which means no further appeal to authority is possible, so single sourcing is out.
- Christian leaders, such as Prince Henry the Navigator, also launched expeditions in hopes of finding converts, or the fabled Prester John. claims an intentional motivation for Henry the Navigator in relation to Christianity and specifically to the Prester John myth. Claims of motivation require a citation. As motivation goes to historical opinion, I'd like something better than a first year survey textbook on the early modern period. As such, I've dubioused this.
- The European economy was dependent on gold and silver currency, but low domestic supplies had plunged much of Europe into a recession.[1] is still dubious opinion. Opinion is an exercise of historical judgement. This would require a Review Essay at minimum in a peer reviewed journal of international significance or specialist expertise. Claiming a) Europe had a market b) Its market was dependent on specie supply and c) Europe suffered a recession (an anachronistic term coined c20) is [dubious ] due to conflicts within economic history and political economy over the structure of early modern European economic relations and would require expert citation. As such, I've dubioused this.
- The other edits are brilliant and are putting this article in a proper network of context for the early modern period. Needs more Indonesian & Indian trade network impacts still! Fifelfoo (talk) 16:54, 25 June 2008 (UTC) corrected Fifelfoo (talk) 17:08, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
- With no further discussion on the dubiousness of the Monetarist position on late medieval Europe, and, with the source for this being a 1992 textbook, I have deleted the sentences.Fifelfoo (talk) 00:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- The quality of a two of your citations is highly dubious, and fails to meet required standards. Other citations are acceptable, but its poor form to single source so many. Survey course level textbooks are of equivalent authority to encyclopaedia, which means no further appeal to authority is possible, so single sourcing is out.
- As to the specific factual issues, I do agree that the Papacy being the one hunting Prester John is inaccurate and I've changed that reference. As to the Black Death, I don't think it can be argued that at least for a few decades it severely curtailed European trade and exploration. There are many scholars who believe that in the long term it might have boosted the European economy, but that is not what that sentence is talking about. The exact quote from the textbook that I used to reference that sentence is "In the middle of the 14th century, however, the overland route to China was severed by a conjunction of the Black Death, the vigorous expansion of the Ottoman Turks, and the overthrow of the Mongol dynasty in China." - SimonP (talk) 13:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- ^ Jensen, De Lamar (1992), Renaissance Europe 2nd ed. pg. 330
Didn't the Vikings discover America first? (http://news.softpedia.com/news/How-Did-Vikings-Discover-America-49891.shtml) Dalponis (talk) 04:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- Discover, yes. First, no. See Viking. Jim.henderson (talk) 23:03, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Article is IMHO too blacklegendly. Influence of Spain is minimized, influence of Portugal maximized. While both play an important role in exploration, Treaty of Tordesillas defines who is and will be top dog for centuries. Please dispose of PC mumbo jumbo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cptn. Nemo (talk • contribs) 21:32, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Chapters in human history.[edit]
It seems to me Wiki contributors have a strong bias when it comes to recent human history. The last 500 years reflect only a small portion of human accomplishments, failures, errors and successes. No human culture can claim sanctity, none can be seen as the ultimate evil, non-redeemable. Cultures are but a product of their times and should only be seen in their proper context. A native american culture may have deemed glorious the sacrifice and gut extraction of a god-loving member of society, but the deed is just as common to europeans who accepted quartering or burning at the stake. Africans, Asians and even north-pole inhabitants had their own rules and punishments, none too pretty.
May we please get rid of the "europeans-are-the-biggest-monsters-ever"? We were all human when we explored the unknown. We were all human when we killed and got killed in our exploration of our planet. Sometimes it was the climate that killed us, sometimes it was other creatures we were trying to compete with, sometimes it was other humans that were there first, or second, or third...
Western exploration and further conquest of the Americas is no different from the initial fight for food and territory that the first "real" americans had to endure 12.000 or so years ago. The America that Europeans "discovered" was as war-torn, class-divided as all of Europe was. It was just that the time was ripe for Europe to expand. It was time for the quasi-neolithic empires of the americas to give way. Just as the most poweful american cultures forced some to live up north in the ice, far away from the plentiful prairies, just as some tribes condemned other tribes to famine or slavery, so they were forced to retreat upon the advance of the new european force...just as in Europe some lost land and food and life and limb upon the advance of others. Just check History. All cultures have been violated, almost all have been in turn violators. That is the way we all are. I do not think we should judge the past with our present. I think we should be grateful that, timid and still feeble as it is, there is a global consciousness that abhors violence and war, yet understands that military forces ensure peace. Simply expressed: in the past the military was a way to conquer others. Now we hope it is just a planetary police that neither conquers nor steals, just forces all to behave. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cptn. Nemo (talk • contribs) 22:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- Find a credible secondary source of monograph length written by a historian of the period with a doctorate which has been positively reviewed in at least two history journals' review section. The interpretive position you're advocating is fairly far outside of the norm for historical interpretations conducted by professionals. You might notice that the article notes that brutal indigenous empires were replaced by brutal non-indigenous empires? Or perhaps that the radical change in human culture is described as forcible change, but not lamented or celebrated, merely noted in the article. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:30, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Recent edits (October 2009) as Wikipedia:COATRACK[edit]
Everything from 2.6 onwards to the end of 3 is a Coatrack for exciting explorations which occurred, but which are not RSed as considered by historians as part of the Age of Discovery. Dumped out to Major explorations after the Age of Discovery. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:33, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Corrected and disambiguated links identified by WildBot--Uxbona (talk) 08:13, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Portraits of notable explorers[edit]
It would be nice to add some portraits of the most notable explorers and other important people of the Age of Discovery. These may be Marco Polo, Henry the Navigator, Christopher Columbus, Ferdinand Magellan, Hernán Cortés, Francisco Pizarro, Yermak Timofeyevich and some others. I understand that there are few contemporary portraits, but is it really a problem? What other editors think? Greyhood (talk) 15:44, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- the article his quite heavy with images, mainly the travel paths and routes, and ships (which testimony important evolution in sailing technologies). As there are allready detailed biographic articles about the explorers, and their portraits would not add crucial information, those were not included.--Uxbona (talk) 23:48, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
To continue to suggest Luis Vaz de Torres was (perhaps?) Portuguese is to perpetuate a myth invented by 19th/20th century Portuguese nationalist propagandists (who were understandably encourage Portuguese self-confidence) and was swallowed (unknowingly) by some British historians - because Galician and Portuguese spelling is so similar. To continue this claim here is to deliberately perpetuate this historical farce.Provocateur (talk) 01:53, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, Provocateur, can you please source or reference this affirmation so that it can be used? thanks.--Wikitza (talk) 10:25, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Changing the lead image[edit]
I've changed the image of the Cantino map in the lead for one of better quality. Since I did not change it for another completely different image, I felt no reason to ask the other editors' opinions on the matter. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 11:41, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
GA Review[edit]
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Age of Discovery/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Magic♪piano 03:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I am going to fail this nomination. Although it is clear that a great deal of effort has been put into it, and the coverage is quite broad, I believe that it presently fails criteria 1a (prose) and 2a (citation), and a non-trivial amount of work will be required to address them. Both of these came up in the FAC in June, and still require attention. Here are some specific recommendations:
- The article should be copyedited by someone with a stronger command of written English. Although much of the writing is of good enough quality, there are a fair number of ungrammatical howlers (including runon sentences, sentence fragments, and the like). (I might be in a position to do this in a few weeks, but it would be a work of some time for an article of this length.)
- Although you correctly say in the FA candidacy that "obvious" facts (like the year in which Columbus discovered the Americas) do not need citations, there are many sections containing details that I would consider unobvious or at least not widely enough known to blindly accept. For example, I doubt much of the English-speaking world is knowledgeable about the exploration of Siberia (or would even know what sort of reference works to consult for details); most of that whole section is uncited. I know this is a pain for an article of this length and complexity, but I recommend that you provide citations for each paragraph.
- If you really want this article to reach FA, make sure all of the images have {{Information}} templates that are properly filled out, with English descriptions. All of the images I checked (probably 3/4 of them) had adequate licenses, but some were a little short on descriptions and sourcing.
Not to add to your burden (or the length of the article), but I also observe that the section on global impact does not include mention of impact on the South Asian societies (India, Southeast Asian cultures, and Indonesia), or Central Asia (silk road economies).
-- Magic♪piano 20:24, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the review, Magicpiano. It is really helpful. I can proceed to add sources and image information. The Siberian exploration chapter was developed by another user, and its a field were I myself have no knowledge, but I can research for sources as well as complete the "global impact" chapter. However a review on English would be great, as I'm not a native speaker. If anyone can help on this, that would be greatly appreciated. --Uxbona (talk) 21:17, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Native Americans-Vikings-Ice Age[edit]
There is no mention of Native American tribes, the first people who discovered the continent. Also Viking exploration needs to be mentioned, especially Leif Erickson. Columbus, himself, sailed to Iceland to find out information on finding a route to Japan. There was also an ice age that prevented Western exploration. No mention of this is in the article. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:36, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
- The article focus on the 15th-16th century exploration commonly known as the "age of discovery". Other previous or not directly related exploration is dealt with in articles such as Norse colonization of the Americas, Viking expansion, etc. Although you're right and a minor reference can be made on this.--Uxbona (talk) 23:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
- Exactly, Uxbona, we should focus on "the 15th-16th century exploration commonly known as the "Age of Discovery". That's what is makes it so difficult why you have started editwarting to include the section on the completely unrelated Chinese voyages in the Indian Ocean. Again, I agree that we should not inlcude the Vikings either, but, on the other hand, why should the voyages of a single Chinese admiral sailing the well-established trading routes in the Indian Ocean be more relevant to Columbus and European history than the Vikings being the first to discover the Americas and the the first maritime culture in world history to navigate to four continents? This makes no sense whatsoever. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 21:48, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Title change[edit]
The title of this article should be called the Age of European Discovery. This is more accurate. The current title suggests that Europeans were the first people to explore. Native Americans explored and settled America 10,000 to 11,000 years ago after crossing the Bering Straight. There is also evidence that Native Americans used ships to explore the North West Coast of Alaska. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:50, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
- "Age of Discovery" is the commonly used term to refer to the period of intensive systematic European exploration culminating in the 16th century, and it doesn't even need a disambiguation from other "Age o Discovery". See the previous discussion on this discussion page. Even with recent historiography forcing a name change from "Discovery" to "Exploration" it remains so. To add "European" to it would have the same effect on accuracy as adding it to the commonly used terms "Renaissance" or "Middle Ages". It is not a question of being more accurate, or "correcting" history: any search on google books will bring far more results for "Age of Discovery" than any of the other used or proposed alternatives. See Mancall reference in the introduction (Mancall, Peter C. (1999). "The Age of Discovery" in The Challenge of American History, ed. Louis Masur. John Hopkins University Press. ISBN 0801862221.), pp. 26–53. on the use of the term.--Uxbona (talk) 23:19, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
can someone please answer this question for me please[edit]
How accurate is the view that Portugal was the Atlantic pioneer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 22:22, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Ancient Greeks, Phoenicians, Irish and Vikings sailed in Atlantic earlier than Portugese. But if we take the Late Middle Ages separately, Portugal was indeed the pioneer in the Southern Atlantic. GreyHood Talk 22:46, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Chinese missions[edit]
Reference to Chinese missions included in "prelude (1241–1438)", as it is a relevant fact, often quoted by reliable sources and experts, to understand the subject. Please see:
- Peter C. Mancall' Mancall, Peter C. (2006). Travel narratives from the age of discovery: an anthology. Oxford University Press US. ISBN 0195155971 (historian Peter C. Mancall has compiled some of the most important travel accounts of this era. Written by authors from Spain, France, Italy, England, China, and North Africa describing locations)
- The Age of Discovery, 1400-1600 -David Arnold;
- The Essential World History, William J. Duiker, Jackson J. Spielvogel p.335 and other
- I agree. The missions are not part of the Age of Discovery, but the information does add useful context and background. SimonP (talk) 21:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- Background for what? The Chinese missions are a separate event which had no impact whatsoever on the European exploration of the world. In fact, it did not even had a lasting impact on China where all records were, as you know, destroyed after Zheng He's death. We have a separate article for these voyages we can link to, Chinese exploration, that should suffice. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 21:32, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
o índico era o centro lá estavam as rotas não havia por que zeng he ir alem do indico ao contrario de quem fazia o caminho inverso vindo do oeste numa latitude mais evoluida e blokeada a passagem por rivalidades civilizacionais (e nem só vide como os padanicos sabotaram bizancio nas cruzadas e se aliaram a mouros contra ibericos para não perder regalias) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14C:DA94:730:4412:3C19:6F2F:2A6 (talk) 00:39, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Definition and scope of the Age of Discovery[edit]
The Age of Discovery is defined by the overwhelming majority as an era in European history and European accomplishment. Chinese navigators has no more part in it than, say, the simultaneous voyages of Polynesian sailors in the South Pacific. The inclusion of the Chinese material is thus heavily POV. One could cite dozens of sources, I'l start with three which take a second to find so clear is the consensus:
- David Arnold: The Age of Discovery, 1400-1600, backcover Exploring one of the most dramatic features of the late medieval and early modern period, this work covers the time when voyagers from Western Europe led by Spain and Portugal set out across the world and established links with Africa, Asia and the Americas.
- Ronald S. Love: Maritime exploration in the age of discovery, 1415-1800, preface: European maritime exploration in the Age of Discovery united trade routes and paved the way for the modern global era.
- Hazel Mary Martell: The Age of Discovery, 1993: Explores the history of the world from 1500 to 1650, an active period which included the Renaissance in Europe, European explorations among the ancient empires of Africa and South America, and the decline of the Mogul Empire in India.
Could added dozen more scholarly works corrobating the general view that we are talking here about the myriad of European explorers to land and sea, like Columbus, da Gama, Caboto, Pizarro, Amerigo Vespucci, Martin Waldseemueller, Barthomlomeus Diaz etc. etc. not Zheng He. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 21:32, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
- Of course it's a European event, no one disagrees with that. But there is also a history of non-European exploration that provides useful background and context. It lets readers know how new such journeys were, how unprecedented. Fifty years ago it was considered acceptable for Westerners to ignore non-western history, but this view is now very out of date. Consider your own sources. Arnold and Love's books are both searchable through Google books, and you'll find that both of them contain a discussion of China's exploration efforts in their opening chapters. - SimonP (talk) 22:32, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
- Gun Powder Ma, how come you make this assumption of multicultural historical revisionism? As SimonP explained, reference to relevant contemporary exploration is anything but helpful. In a chapter that came to be one of the most significant, even the first chapter of globalized interlinked world history. Not mentioning it would be, I'm afraid, inviting to the really far stretching views on the issue such as that of Gavin Menzies'.--Uxbona (talk) 23:08, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Please notice that same sources you mentioned:
- David Arnold: The Age of Discovery, 1400-1600- p.7 refers to it "Also Often, too, there was simply a lack of curiosity or the material incentives to motivate long journeys of discovery by land or by sea. China was a striking example of this. In 1400 its maritime technology was in many respects Europe's ..."
- Ronald S. Love, Maritime exploration in the age of discovery, 1415-1800, Page xix "1405 The first of Zheng He's seven expeditions leaves China to impose Ming prestige in maritime Asia. 1406 Jacobus Angelus translates Ptolemy's Geography. 1410 Pierre d'Ailly writes Imago Mundi. 1415 Portuguese forces capture Ceuta. ..."
- SimonP, you assert that it "provides useful background and context" but fail to explain why this should be so. I am glad that we agree that it was a European event which is the main point. As for Arnold and Love, the question is to we go by his book's general scope and explicit definition of the Age as an Eurocentric event or do we go by singling out single sentences or short cross-references? The relevant policy as to the inclusion of Zheng he seems here clearly to be WP:Undue: obviously we'd need much more than these random remarks to include such a major paragraph, based on so small a scholarly basis. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 19:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- Gun Powder Ma said "SimonP, you assert that it "provides useful background and context" but fail to explain why this should be so." So, here it is:
- 1) Because it was a relevant contemporary spring of exploration, as reaching China had been the aim of earlier medieval exploration like that of Marco Polo. And, even after Portuguese arrival in 1513, it was the aim of that of Willem Barentsz. 2) Gives background to chinese retreat in Haijin that, like Japanese Sakoku later, explains the reaction to Portuguese and other european maritime exploration and trade.
- Characterising the age o exploration as an "eurocentric" event- even if it was radiating from Europe and fueled by Europeans- is to ignore it's worlwide scope and impact (kirishitan, red seal boats, nanban trade, Jesuit China Missions, european colonial empires, columbian exchange)... For a factual list of "pure" European exploration just go to Timeline of European exploration.--Uxbona (talk) 22:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- Were Zheng He's voyages really "exploration"? I thought the voyages were all to places the Chinese already knew a great deal about. Weren't they mostly following long established trade routes? Wasn't the point to show dominance over existing trade routes, not discover wholly new routes? Isn't there a great difference between that and Columbus, Magellan, etc? Pfly (talk) 06:41, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Also, wasn't Marco Polo likewise following known trade routes--even if they may not have been known to Italians. Did he, personally, do any true exploration? I'm sure he brought back to Europe new information--to Europeans--about the world, but, similar to Zheng He, he wasn't striking out into the unknown without guide or pilot, was he? Perhaps this page would be better if the distinction between being guided along known routes vs. trailblazing into unknown regions without local guidance be made more clear? I'm sure there have been "trailblazers" among many civilizations, but by chance we have good documentation of the Europeans who did so during the so-called Age of Discovery--complete with names. The Polynesian culture clearly were explorers in the strong sense of the term, even if the names and details of the initial voyages are lost. Likewise the ancient discovery and colonization of Madagascar. I note that this page mentions Madagascar only in that Zheng He might, perhaps, have reached it, and that Cabral did so in 1501. Within Eurasia in general, from Zheng He to Marco Polo, Ibn Battuta, and many others, was not the geography basically known, and the "explorers" traveling with the aid of local guides? Even most of the European "Age of Discovery" explorers depended heavily on local guides--Cortés for example. It seems to me that "exploration" with the help of local guides and pilots is a far cry from some of the audacious risks taken by the likes of Columbus, Magellan, James Cook, Andrés de Urdaneta, Bering, and those unknown Polynesians. Still, my understanding is that the term "Age of Discovery" tends to refer to the European era circa 1400-1800. Certainly other cultures have had their own ages of discovery, and some background information about them might be useful for this page. However, it would be useful if a distinction was made between the "exploration" along known routes with local guides, such as done by Zheng He, Marco Polo, Cortés, etc, and "exploration" in the sense of striking out into the unknown without guides and little more than hope and perhaps a theory. The Europeans were not the only ones to undertake such risks, but they are the best documented and the term "Age of Discovery" tends to refer to the European era of exploration. Background information and reference to other cultures and eras would be useful, to be sure, but in context. It seems to me people are too quick celebrate people like Zheng He and Marco Polo as "explorers", forgetting folks like Urdaneta, who with little more than a hunch and without local guidance discovered the wind system that made the Manila galleon route feasible. What new trade route did Zheng He, Marco Polo, or Cortés discover? Pfly (talk) 09:29, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Uxbona, a Chinese navy following established trade routes in the Indian Ocean to the East African coast is relevant to the European age of discovery because it was the declared aim of European explorers to reach China from Europe? You will agree that makes mo sense at all, the protagonists are different, the routes are different, the aims are different, it is just mixing wildly together unrelated events. No European explorer ever knew about Zheng He nor was his knowledge, which was anyway destroyed by the maritime party at the Chinese court after his death, relevant to them as the missing link to India and China was the circumnavigation of Africa, not sailing in the Indian Ocean along age-old trade routes as Zheng He only did. This part of the sea lane was already well known by many other peoples with a longer and more distinguished history of seafaring and exploration like the Arabs. This is also corrobated by the fact that da Gama hired an Arab, not Chinese pilot in Malindi for the rest of the trip to India.
- So, the waters west and south of Africa were explored by Europeans, while the waters east of it, the Indian Ocean, were known waters to many maritime cultures like the Arabs, Persians and Indians. Where should the Chinese come into play then? Nowhere, they played no role in the Age of Discovery and they have an article of their own, Chinese exploration. Calling Zheng He a "prelude" here is really covering up SYN and OR. What we can do is improving the article by a small paragraph on the existing trade network in the Indian Ocean since Greek and Arab times to which the Europeans connected (and where the late and epheremal Chinese voyages figured about very last). Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:16, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- It isn't SYN or OR, as all the references that you yourself presented mention Zheng as a prelude to the Age of Exploration. - SimonP (talk) 22:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- Please see above. These references all explicitly call the age and events "European" and focus on this. It needs clearly more than a few passing remarks on Zheng He to demonstrate that his inclusion is not WP:undue weight. If you don't accept this view, at least recognize that more than 99% of contents of these books is not about Zheng He. From this it is only one step to recognize that WP article don't build their scope and contents based on 1% which is exactly what the WP policy undue weight asks for. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:48, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- It isn't SYN or OR, as all the references that you yourself presented mention Zheng as a prelude to the Age of Exploration. - SimonP (talk) 22:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
Copyright problem removed[edit]
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External links modified[edit]
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Ben + Nelani by angel-gidgetWatch
©2007-2016 angel-gidget
Ben & Nelani from the Legacy of the Force series. Just 'cause I thought their interactions were kinda cute...
I was so happy that Ben end up with Nightsister instead. XD
I must confess I never read that far. I had a hard time getting into it after they killed Jacen.
Yeah, Ben and Nelaini were adorable. The Lando impression of his was totally win! xD
Yer, those bits were ace. It seems the pic of the Star Wars authors that the good guys get all the bad stuff happening to them.
I miss Nelani... And she was only in one book.
Good work!
Good work!
You're so right! Ben's awkward attempts to impress her were achingly cute! I was glad she didn't just shoot him down and break his heart (even though she was after someone else entirely...sad end, that... )--I wonder if Ben will ever completely remember her... This is wonderful!
I, too, hope that Ben will one day obtain a complete recovery from the Jacen-induced memory loss. It really does stink that the boy can't recall his 1st major crush. LOOOOVED his Land immitation!

subset: commoncrawl


text:
"And he took and sent messes unto them from before him: but Benjamin's mess was five times so much as any of their's. And they drank, and were merry with him."
Related quotes
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"Not only did they mess up this season (for me) but next season also. They took a decent amount of money out of my pocket and a lot of security and added a lot of uncertainty, a lot of frustration."
"I really didn't expect to get to the final, but it's a bit of a mess, this tournament. Five down, only one guy to beat now."


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Ovation strives to take its musicians on a journey of sonic self-discovery. By giving you the tools you need to make the most of your music, Ovation creates fans for life. Try one for yourself today and find out what all the hype is about.


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Have you wondered how you will bring individuality to your event? We offer an extensive collection of event rentals large to small to do just that. Come in and find all your decor needs in our 4,500 square foot design showroom.
Looking for something specific or your planning from afar? We would be happy to help, send us an email at email@example.com and let us know what you are looking for.
All rentals are a la carte, fitting all price points.
Each detail contributes to the depth and character of your day. Knowing where to place these details is an art all its own. We are here to help you master this art by finding your individual style and pulling it together in a seamless styled event.
Join us for a complimentary first time design session with one of our skilled event designers.
Schedule today!
Why miss the opportunity to have a lush floral arrangement grace your table? Offering custom arrangements made up of the most stunning silk blooms at a third of the price as fresh designs.
Full styled silk weddings starting at: $1000
A la carte options starting at single digits.
Mid-range lush centerpiece $25-$35 each.
Your event stationery starts the style and feel of your event. Let our sister company, Studio 36 Event Stationery breathe life into your event with custom designed pieces all your own.
Invitation suite starting at $375 per 10o count
Learn more about Studio 36 Event Stationery here
Not sure if you can master the art of styling? We got you covered! We offer day of styling and set-up for brides that want peace-of-mind that every detail will be in its prefect spot. Our talented team will do just that!
Fully styled set-up with nightly tear-down starting at $600.
Events by I. Candy is a far step away from your average Grand Rapids' rental company. Wanting to bring individuality to each of our clients events is what has brought about our passion for growing an extensive collection of event rentals. These aren't your average table and chairs, we house some of the most stunning decor elements to make your event one-of-a-kind.
We encourage as you start your planning to come in to our 4.500 square foot design showroom and meet with one of our event stylists. Our stylist can help you with styling your event, chatting over floral options to custom printed pieces. This will offer you the ability to see first hand all the pieces that can and will bring your event to life.
Want to stop in to browse? Our open showroom hours are M-F 10am-12pm and 2pm-5pm.
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Leave seeing all the elements pulled together.
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Be a part of the design process. We encourage you to come stand at our design table.
Get started creating a unique design for your event. Contact us for more information.
ADDRESS: 3650 Jefferson Grand Rapids MI
EMAIL: firstname.lastname@example.com


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ALL INCLUSIVE - Located at the heart of one of the most touristic destinations in Mexico: Cancún, the property is situated on a dazzling stretch of white sand beach and framed by tropical vegetation and crystal clear turquoise water.
* Summer Sale - Must book by 07/31/16 and all travel must be completed by 12/23/16. (3) night minimum is required. In order to receive this special offer, you must select the room category that identifies the promotion when booking. Offer subject to availability and may change without notice; valid for new bookings only. Additional restrictions apply. See bottom of page for Getaways Terms and Conditions.


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PARIS (July 4, 2014) The mother of a pupil at a French preschool stabbed a teacher to death Friday in front of her class of 5 and 6-year-olds on the last day of the school year, authorities said.
French President Francois Hollande expressed outrage at what he called "this abominable drama" and sent the education minister to the school in Albi in southern France.
A police official in Albi says the mother attacked the teacher Friday morning at the preschool.
Police didn't disclose possible motives for the attack.


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Welcome to the University of Tennessee track meet management web site. All officials will register for events through this site.
All team/athlete entries for meets hosted by The University of Tennessee will be done through Direct Athletics at www.directathletics.com.
Track Renovations Extend Through Spring
With continued renovations, Tom Black Track will not host any events this spring and the venue is closed to the public
The renovation of Tom Black Track will continue throughout the spring semester. This will result in the inability for the venue to host any meets this spring, including the Tennessee Relays powered by Sea Ray in April and the Tennessee Challenge in May.
The Tennessee track and field team will be able to practice at Tom Black Track during the renovations. The use of temporary runways and the relocation of some event space will satisfy practice needs.
Tom Black Track will not be available for public use until construction is complete. The renovation project will continue with a reconfigured and resurfaced track as well as a team building. This will result in the completion of both Phase I and Phase II of the project.
The Tennessee Athletic Department will announce Tom Black Track's re-opening for public use when the project is completed, which will most likely occur in the fall of 2016.
Contact Information
Tennessee Event Management
(865) 974-1205
Be advised that parking on campus is limited. If you are parked in areas other than those designated for your use, you will be subject to citations.
Buses must park on Volunteer Blvd. in the bagged meter spaces.
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For credentials and other media information about the meet, please contact:
Kellen Hiser
Office: 865.974.1131
Email: firstname.lastname@example.com


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As controversy rages over Catholic blogs we ask five incisive writers what role blogging should really be playing in the Church's life
United Nations bureaucracy tends to regard religious traditions as an obstacle to the international enforcement of human rights
This week we bring you a unique commentary and analysis on the lives of the papal saints. Cardinal Turkson writes on John XXIII's landmark encyclical, Pacem in Terris while Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor writes about the first time he ever saw the papal saint. Meanwhile, Rabbi Cooper and Rabbi Adlerstein explain why the Jewish people give […]
This week we bring you an exclusive report on the threat to freedom of expression for pro-life students in Cardiff, the diocese that is converting all of its schools to academies and how a beloved church in Preston has been rescued from closure. We also report on the death of US Navy captain, Jeremiah Denton, […]
Revelations that hospitals incinerated the remains of unborn children have generated international revulsion but the reaction in the UK has been muted
The emergence of the Catholic blogosphere is one of the most significant developments in the 21st-century Church
Vatican Television releases never-before-seen footage of Pope Francis on the day he was elected
Francis will not allow us to ignore the countless wounded people both within the Church and outside it
A guide to the print edition of this week's Catholic Herald, which is out on Friday


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IEEE membership options for an individual and IEEE Xplore subscriptions for an organization offer the most affordable access to essential journal articles, conference papers, standards,
eBooks, and eLearning courses.
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IEEE membership
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A method for design of high-order sigma-delta modulator is proposed to generate high-precision analog signals for Built-In-Self-Test (BIST) of mixed-signal integrated circuits. The noise transfer function of the sigma-delta modulator is achieved by the sigma-delta toolbox. Using Determination Decision Diagram (DDD), symbolic transfer functions of the sigma-delta modulator are represented exactly and efficiently, and are applied to its coefficient quantization. The experiment on 4th-order sigma-delta modulator demonstrates that the in-band noise attenuation can also be kept to a maximum after quantization.
A not-for-profit organization, IEEE is the world's largest technical professional organization dedicated to advancing technology for the benefit of humanity.© Copyright 2016 IEEE - All rights reserved. Use of this web site signifies your agreement to the terms and conditions.


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Worth Repairing?
courtesy of Bob, The Auto Answer Man
Hi Bob,
Four days ago, I found a big oil slick under my 1999 Honda Accord, 4-cylinder, with 125,000 miles on it. I took it to the Honda dealership I have used since buying the car new. They told me that the oil slick was oil and coolant. The oil was overflowing into the coolant and vice versa. They called it an engine failure. They also said I needed another engine and it would cost $3000-$6000. The mechanic also said that if I didn't trade the car, he'd like to buy it and fix it.
A few amateur mechanics told me my problem sounded like a blown head gasket. I just dropped the car off at an independent mechanic last night and am waiting for their diagnosis. What do you think? The radiator looks like it has chocolate milk in it.
It might be a head gasket. It sounds like that might be a possibility. However, there is also the possibility of there being a crack in the engine block. I would also have the engine tested for that. However, since the first dealership mechanic offered to buy it and fix it for himself, it sounds like he thinks it is only a head gasket issue.
Good Luck!
Drive Safely!
Bob, The Auto Answer Man
Have a car care question? Visit our automotive center and see if we've already answered it or a similar question.
Debt is preventing me from taking a vacation this year or the vacation I'd like to take this year! Tell us: Yes, debt is affecting my vacation plans! or No, we're going exactly where we want to go but we'd love to learn make our trip as inexpensive as possible!
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IBM Announces Power 6 Blades and Software
The J2SS Blade Center triggers a new virtualization drive. The Linux-friendly system helps operators save electricity.
Parallel to the announcement of the JS22 Express Blade Center with Power 6 CPUs that support Linux, IBM has announced two software units designed to help customers save hardware and electricity. Advanced Power Virtualization is part of IBM's Power 6 technology and designed to support up to ten virtual servers on a single processor core. The latest version of Active Energy Manager, an power monitoring tool, allows customers to cap power consumption. This and other projects are part of IBM's Big Green campaign (see the separate article here).
Inside a Power 6 blade server. The pictures shows an IBM engineer fitting a memory module.
Unix customers additionally have the ability to migrate, move or replace components without downtime: Live Partition Mobility is a Power 6 platform feature which is only implemented for Unix. It gives administrators the ability to physically move complete operating system partitions in production environments.The feature is incluced with the Enterprise Edition of Advanced Power Virtualization, and not available for other CPUs or operating systems.
Blade servers with Power 6 CPUs will be available in H cases and HT cases as of November 2007, says the vendor. A JS22 express configuration with 4GB RAM and 73GB disk capacity in an H case will cost US$ 10,363, although resellers may offer the system at different prices. Advanced Power Virtualization (Standard Edition) will be available as of mid-November and is included with POWER-based blade servers. Active Energy Manager will be available as of mid-December. Energy management and power consumption capping cost around US$ 100 per system. More information on Energy Manager will be available here as of November 13, says IBM.
Issue 26: Linux Shell Handbook 7th Ed./Special Editions
Buy this issue as a PDF
Mirantis to Refactor OpenStack Fuel for Kubernetes
The company is collaborating with Google and Intel to use Kubernetes as an engine for Fuel
Canonical Joins Document Foundation Advisory Board
The upcoming release of LibreOffice will be available as a snap package
SUSE Joins the Microsoft Test Drive Program
Customers can take a free test drive of SLES for HPC on the Azure Cloud
SiFive Launches a Line of Open Source Chips
San Francisco-based chip company announces their first fully open source chip platform.
Fedora 24 Released
The whole distro gets rebuilt on glibc 2.3
Canonical Announces Cross-Distro Support for Snaps
Ubuntu Vendor tries to solve app packaging and distribution problem across distributions.
ownCloud Forked
Founder of ownCloud launches the Nextcloud project.
HP Enterprise Unveils a Futuristic Computer
Will The Machine change the way future programmers think about memory?
CoreOS Announces Distributed Storage System
The new Torus distributed storage system is available under an open source license on GitHub
Google Beats Oracle in the Android Lawsuit
Juries decides Google's use of Java APIs Was Fair Use


text:
I have a viewModel with these three properties:
string searchString;
ObservableCollection<Company> ListedItems;
ICommand SearchCommand;
It represents a searchable list of companies in my database.
SearchCommand searches the database based on the value of
searchString, and then populates
ListedItems with the results.
SearchString is bound to a textbox, while
SearchCommand is bound to a button. I want to make it so that as the user types into the text box,
SearchCommand is automatically executed without the user having to click the button.
At the moment, I do this via my viewModel:
public ListViewModel() {
this.PropertyChanged += delegate(object o, PropertyChangedEventArgs e)
if (e.PropertyName == "SearchString")
Is this correct? Would it be better to have this functionality in the view? If so, how is that achieved?


text:
Which sex is the worst about washing up? Why is it so important? We've got the dirty truth on how and when to wash your hands.
Medical Dictionary
Confused over medical jargon? Find definitions for thousands of medical terms, treatments, and tests -- even health-related abbreviations, prefixes, and suffixes.
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User talk:I41hope
Thanks for your help in A&P.Dtran420 (talk) 18:44, 30 January 2012 (UTC)dtran420
Quick introduction from online ambassador[edit]
Hello, I41hope, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
- The five pillars of Wikipedia
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place
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Hello, I am an online ambassador who you can ask about anything by using my talk page, or email if you do not want others to see what you want to say. I will also be keeping an eye on what what editing you do on Wikipedia in this course, and will lend a hand or have a chat. I hope you enjoy contributing to Wikipedia and can make a difference to our content! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia Education Program Student Survey[edit]
Hi! Please take a few minutes to fill out this survey about the Wikipedia Education Program. This is our opportunity to improve the program and resources we provide students, so your feedback and input is integral to our future success. Thank you so much! JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 23:08, 22 May 2012 (UTC)


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You Can Keep Your Old Light Fixtures
While hundreds of fixtures now bear an Energy Star rating, you won't save more by using a rated fixture versus simply screwing energy-saving bulbs of equivalent wattage into your existing lights. "It's all about the bulbs a fixture uses," says New York–based light-fixture designer and architect David Bergman. Energy Star fixtures are designed to accept only efficient bulbs, not incandescents, so that's primarily how they save.


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You want your party or special event to come to life and have a certain level of excitement. This is usually a more metaphorical idea, but with some inflatable blow-up decorations from Shindigz, your special gathering can really add some depth. With inflatable party decorations, your location adds a third dimension that goes beyond standard wall decorations and party tableware. Those types of decorations are still crucial, but some inflatables can bring the theme out in a more pronounced way and let the guests interact with your décor. Whether it is inflatable animals or blow-up decorations that form part of the background for pictures, these types of decorations can really add some design imagination to your party. Get a few inflatables, and add some additional life to your event.
Let's face it, inflatable decorations are just plain cool when it comes to planning for a party. With inflatable blow-up decorations from Shindigz, you add a whole new layer of decorative options because now your décor is three-dimensional and has the opportunity to really come to life. There are several different types of inflatable party decorations from which to choose. For starters, there are a number of inflatable animals, which can be really popular with the kids, and even with the adults. There are also inflatable coolers, which can add a practical and decorative dimension to your drink serving logistics. Finally, there are blow-up props that can be used with staged pictures or other background materials. All of these are fun, and can really make your party come alive in a whole new way.


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Video Industry News Video Company News Technology Industry News Technology Company News Novelty Industry News Novelty Company News Gay Industry News Gay Company News Legal Industry News All Company News
Released: Sep 01st, 2001
Running Time: 75
Director: Rick Miller
Company: Odyssey Group Video
Cast: Skylar Paige, Rod Fontana, Flesh Gordon, Phoenix (I), LaTia Lopez, Dick Nasty, Nina Whett
Critical Rating: AAA 1/2
Genre: Specialty
Recommend with confidence to customers into the squirting specialty.
For guys into the gals that gush, the four cuties in this release will open the floodgates.
What makes this video a notch above other squirt selections is the fact that the girls seem to squirt naturally without the aid of camera tricks. Though the there isn't much in the way of quantity for most of the female joy juice, the sex that gets the chicks hot and bothered will satisfy strokers whether they're into the kink or not. A scene of note includes Phoenix, a cutie who stands out in this squad of squirters (who screws Dick Nasty to a satisfyingly soggy scene) and Nina Whett, always a favorite for those who like a woman's orgasm to be something more than dripping.
Kinky carnal fun for both specialty strokers and pedestrian pud-pounders.


text:
another_local 8 years ago on Two more projects queue up in rapidly evolving neighborhood
Two more projects queue up in rapidly evolving neighborhood
Invite volunteers to do the work along the creek? To support a "for profit" developer? Tell me another one.
another_local 8 years ago on Pumps could become park
Pumps could become park
This park is a great idea.
another_local 8 years ago on Brent Boyer: Cleaning up our online comments
Brent Boyer: Cleaning up our online comments
First of all, sorry, I was not addressing you specifically. I was responding to several posts, yours among them, that seemed to imply that the newspaper has ulterior motives in collecting information. I apologize if you felt I was attacking you.
Dense? No, and I don't appreciate the characterization.
Trusting? Yes. I know Brent and a number of other people at the paper and I do trust them. I would trust them with considerably more (for other purposes) than they are asking for here, especially since they are asking for information that is available anyway.
"Identity Theft? Really?" Refers not to my doubt that this can be done, but rather, to the belief that this information is enough to do it and that information gathering is the purpose of the policy.
I am not thrilled that they exist but all this information and more is available on-line by using any of several people search websites. Giving this small amount of widely available information to a business that already knows more than that about me does not bother me in the slightest.
Most people here generally leave doors unlocked and we trust our neighbors with a lot more than our year of birth and phone numbers. I understand that is no longer that case in many places, but perhaps that is one reason so many want to visit here? I did not mean to imply that you would leave the community, stop visiting or that you should, but simply that we would not be seeing comments from people unwilling to meet the requirements for posting here.
This issue is about some level of accountability for what is said and the ability to determine who can enter and participate, not about gathering information.
another_local 8 years ago on Brent Boyer: Cleaning up our online comments
Brent Boyer: Cleaning up our online comments
All the info except the year of birth is in the phone book.
Identity theft? Really? That is the reason on you object? I guess we will not be hearing from you any more.
another_local 8 years ago on Brent Boyer: Cleaning up our online comments
Brent Boyer: Cleaning up our online comments
I am amazed at the number of people who have evidently not read the new policy carefully. You will still be able to post without your name appearing if that is what you wish.
Yes, the newspaper will have a couple of people with access to your identity but it will not be published.
My guess is that this will halt some of the more irresponsible posts in addition to preventing people who are banned from re-registering so easily.
As to free speach issues; this forum is a privately owned place to which the public is invited. The newspaper is well within their rights to insist on knowing who is in here and is under no obligation to tolorate some of the nonsense that occurs here daily.
This is a good change.
another_local 8 years ago on Brent Boyer: Cleaning up our online comments
Brent Boyer: Cleaning up our online comments
Sounds like a good solution to me.
another_local 8 years ago on Police defend use of Taser
Police defend use of Taser
This is absurd. The officer could have waited for another officer to arrive. The subject was not going anywhere. There was no reason to push into the house or use excessive force.
another_local 8 years ago on Triple Crown could stay
Triple Crown could stay
addlip, 1st. Building fields IS spending money on us. It is our kids that will use them most of the year. (Why they would cost a million apiece to build is another question though. Seems way high to me) 2nd. Govt spends money on things that benefit private enterprise (which in turn funds govt through taxes on economic activity) ALL the time. Public roads are a good example. Roads are built at great public expense to connect private enterprise to the economy. In this case, local businesses make a lot more sales than Triple crown as a result of them being here and therefor employ hundreds of people. The sales tax generated is many times greater than the expense.
The other communities already have the fields. Our facilities ARE substandard. When we travel around the state for kids sports we find that most places have both more and better athletic facilities.
However, I think you are right about the negotiations.
another_local 8 years ago on Steamboat airfare deals pop up
Steamboat airfare deals pop up
Changing airlines on an itinerary will cost you a lot of money no matter where you start. That is not a Steamboat/Hayden issue. I have flown out of Steamboat for years. Airfares are generally not bad compared to the expense and time used driving to Denver for cheaper fares. Most of the time I get round trips for $300 - $400 out of Hayden to the West Coast and a little more to the East.
another_local 8 years ago on Dr. Henry R. Savage: CO2 is food
Dr. Henry R. Savage: CO2 is food
The new Henry though, can't seem to find anything on google other than his contributions to the Pilot.
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Member of the Press
GIIS visiting scholar Dr. Meytal Eran Jona publishes her research on Israeli views of their army. (read more >)
Prof. Peri's visit to Shanghai and Nanjing sparks academic cooperation (read more >)
On November 10, Dr. Meytal Eran-Jona
discussed Israelis' high confidence in their military. (read more >)
GIIS' annual Dubin Lecture with Shlomo Ben-Ami and Aaron David Miller. (read more >)
GIIS director Prof. Yoram Peri discussed Israeli viewpoints and national security calculations vis-à-vis the events in Syria at the Woodrow Wilson Center in Washington, DC. (more info >)