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Book your room at Novotel Sydney Rockford Darling Harbour
Get an overview of this hotelFamily-friendly Sydney hotel in Darling Harbour, near University of Sydney
Located in Darling Harbour, this family-friendly Sydney hotel is steps from Chinese Garden of Friendship and Chinatown Night Market. University of Sydney and Sydney Opera House are also within 2 mi (3 km).
Hotel Features
This smoke-free hotel features 2 restaurants, an indoor pool, and a fitness center. Additionally, a bar/lounge, a coffee shop/café, and a 24-hour business center are onsite.
Room Amenities
All 230 rooms offer WiFi, 24-hour room service, and flat-screen TVs with satellite channels. Guests will also find minibars, coffee makers, and pillow menus.Would you like to give us feedback? Share it! Opens in a new window
Novotel Sydney Rockford Darling Harbour17 Little Pier Street Darling Harbour Sydney NSW 2000
Hotel Amenities
Hotel Amenities
Novotel Sydney Rockford Darling Harbour features an indoor pool and a fitness center. Dining is available at one of the hotel's 2 restaurants and guests can grab coffee at the coffee shop/café. A bar/lounge is on site where guests can unwind with a drink. A computer station is located on site and high-speed wireless Internet access is available for a surcharge.
This 4.5-star property offers access to a 24-hour business center and meeting rooms. Event facilities measuring 4144 square feet (385 square meters) include a conference center. This luxury hotel also offers tour/ticket assistance, complimentary newspapers in the lobby, and dry cleaning/laundry services. Limited onsite parking is available on a first-come, first-served basis (surcharge).
Novotel Sydney Rockford Darling Harbour is a smoke-free property.
- 24-hour business center
- 24-hour front desk
- Airport transportation
- Babysitting or childcare (surcharge)
- Bar/lounge
- Breakfast available (surcharge)
- Coffee shop or café
- Free newspapers in lobby
- Computer station
- Conference center
- Conference space
- Conference space size (feet) - 4144
- Conference space size (meters) - 385
- Dry cleaning/laundry service
- Elevator/lift
- Express check-out
- Fitness facilities
- Indoor pool
- Luggage storage
- Meeting rooms 5
- Number of buildings/towers - 1
- Number of floors - 8
- Number of meeting rooms - 5
- Number of restaurants - 2
- Parking (limited spaces)
- Porter/bellhop
- Safe-deposit box at front desk
- Self parking (surcharge)
- Smoke-free property
- Total number of rooms - 230
- Tours/ticket assistance
- WiFi (surcharge)
Family Friendly Amenities
- Babysitting or childcare (surcharge)
- Cribs/infant beds (complimentary)
- In-room childcare (surcharge)
- Indoor pool
Available in all rooms: Wireless internet access ( AUD 10.00 per 24-hour period )
Available in some public areas: Wireless internet access ( AUD 10.00 per 24-hour period )
Self parking (surcharge), Parking (limited spaces)
Room Amenities
- Air conditioning
- Blackout drapes/curtains
- Coffee/tea maker
- Free newspaper
- Free toiletries
- Free cribs/infant beds
- Daily housekeeping
- Desk
- Flat-panel TV
- Hair dryer
- Hypo-allergenic bedding available
- In-room childcare (surcharge)
- Iron/ironing board
- Minibar
- Pay movies
- Pillow menu
- Premium TV channels
- Private bathroom
- Room service (24 hours)
- Satellite TV service
- Shower/tub combination
- WiFi (surcharge)
Where to Eat
Breakfast is available for a surcharge and served each morning between 6:30 AM and 10:30 AM.
Pumphouse - Onsite restaurant. Guests can order drinks at the bar and enjoy alfresco dining (weather permitting). A children's menu is available. Reservations are required.
Ceezens - This buffet restaurant serves breakfast only. Reservations are required.
24-hour room service is available.
Nearby Things to Do
Recreational amenities at the hotel include an indoor pool and a fitness center.
Children under 12 years old are not allowed in the swimming pool or fitness facility without adult supervision.
To make requests for specific accessibility needs, complete the "Special or Accessibility Requests" section of "Trip Preferences" when you book your hotel.
- Accessible bathroom
- In-room accessibility
- Roll-in shower
Hotel Policies
Check-in time starts at 2 PM
Minimum check-in age is 18
Check-out time is 11 AM
Payment types
- Pets not allowed
You need to know
Extra-person charges may apply and vary depending on hotel policy.
Government-issued photo identification and a credit card or cash deposit are required at check-in for incidental charges.
Special requests are subject to availability upon check-in and may incur additional charges. Special requests cannot be guaranteed.
24-hour check-in
Guests must contact this hotel in advance to reserve a crib onsite parking. Contact the office using the information on the reservation confirmation received after booking.
- Deposit: AUD 100
Optional extras
- Breakfast fee: between AUD 20 and AUD 30 per person (approximately)
- Fee for in-room wireless Internet: AUD 10.00 per 24-hour period (rates may vary)
- Fee for wireless Internet in public areas: AUD 10.00 per 24-hour period (rates may vary)
- Self parking fee: AUD 55 per night (in/out privileges)
- Rollaway bed fee: AUD 60 per night
- Onsite credit card charges are subject to a surcharge
Hotel Name
- Rockford Darling Harbour Novotel
- Rockford Novotel
- Novotel Sydney Rockford Darling Harbour Hotel
- Novotel Sydney Rockford Darling Harbour
- Novotel Rockford Darling Harbour Hotel Sydney
- Darling Harbour Novotel Rockford
- Darling Harbour Rockford
- Darling Harbour Rockford Novotel
- Novotel Darling Harbour Rockford
- Novotel Rockford
- Novotel Rockford Darling Harbour
- Novotel Rockford Hotel
- Novotel Rockford Hotel Darling Harbour
We should mention
Children 15 years old and younger stay free when occupying the parent or guardian's room, using existing bedding.
National Rating
This property has been awarded a star rating from the Australian Star Ratings Agency, Star Ratings Australia.


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MMA notes: What's next for Silva?
UFC middleweight champion Anderson Silva showed off his vast array of striking skills and dispatched Stephan Bonnar as expected with relative ease at UFC 153 on Saturday night in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
So what's next for Silva? Fans have been clamoring for Silva, the consensus No. 1 fighter pound-for-pound in the world, to face UFC light-heavyweight champion Jon Jones, but Silva has said has no desire to fight the 205-pound champion.
"I know he's been saying 'no,'" said White, "but, for the amount of money that would be offered for that fight, I guarantee you I will make Anderson Silva say 'yes.'"
Silva said it's not about the money.
"Since I started training martial arts, I never fought for the money. I'm thankful for everything that I am able to get, because when I started, there was no money in this," Silva said. "This is not something that I would like to haggle (over), because Jon Jones has also mentioned that he would not like the fight. I would not like for this to happen because of (the light-heavyweights) on my team. We have other athletes in his division that can fight (Jones). And I'm getting old, guys. Let Jon Jones have (the younger guys in his own division), you know?"
A Silva-Jones fight can't hapen in the near future anyways because the UFC announced Jones and Chael Sonnen will be the coaches for Season 17 of "The Ultimate Fighter," which begins taping later this month and airs in January on FX.
Silva, 37, said he will continue to defend his UFC 185-pound title and he is interested in a superfight against UFC welterweight champion Georges St. Pierre, who has to get past Carlos Condit at UFC 154 next month for that to become a possibility.
FX executive Chuck Saftler also announced "The Ultimate Fighter" would move out of its current Friday night time slot on FX to a different day of the week starting with Season 17.
The current season of "The Ultimate Fighter" and Season 15, which were broadcast by FX on Friday nights, have failed to generate the kind of ratings as the previous 14 seasons, which had been broadcast by Spike, the former home of the UFC, on weekdays. When the UFC signed with Fox and its family of networks in late 2011 the deal allowed Spike to run its library of UFC content through 2012. Spike has often counter-programmed against "The Ultimate Fighter" and UFC events since the UFC made the move to Fox, FX and Fuel TV.
"Spike clearly has been dogging us for most of this year with the launch of the two seasons of 'The Ultimate Fighter' by trying to create viewer confusion and scheduling old episodes against 'The Ultimate Fighter' and trying to pass them off as new content," Saftler said on a conference call. "They'll be off of the UFC game effective in January. They're going to try to launch a new product, they're going to try to launch their own reality show that competes with 'The Ultimate Fighter' or does a very similar thing with their Bellator product. We watched how they behaved, and we're well aware of their behavior and how they've acted competitively. I'm not ready to commit to (head-to-head), but we're certainly going to be watching how they schedule, what they schedule and where they schedule." ...
White confirmed that former Strikeforce heavyweight champion Alistair Overeem will meet the winner of the fight between UFC heavyweight champion Junior dos Santos and Cain Velasquez at UFC 155 on Dec. 29 in Las Vegas. Overeem has been sitting out a suspension for testing positive for banned substances. He is eligible to reapply for a license with the Nevada State Athletic Commission on Dec. 27. ...
Former UFC heavyweight champion Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Rony Jason, Jon Fitch and Erick Silva each earned $70,000 bonuses for their performances at UFC 153. Nogueira showed off his brilliant submission skills, forcing Dave Herman to tap out to a second-round armbar for the submission of the night. Jason, "The Ultimate Fighter: Brazil" fetaherweight winner, stopped Sam Sicilia with a third-round TKO to take home knockout of the night. Fitch and Silva went at it in a back-and-forth affair with Fitch pulling out a unanimous decision. Both fighters received fight of the night bonuses. ...
Nogueira, 36, dismissed talk about him retiring and said he wants a top-10 heavyweight in his next fight.
"Man, you (media) keep on saying that (I should retire). They're trying to retire me," Nogueira said at the post-fight news conference. "I can still fight. I feel amazing. I'm still hungry. I still feel like I can go and fight and throw some good things. Physically, I feel good. I know my arm broke, but I had good physical therapy, and I've been working (an extra) hour every day." ...
UFC officials announced UFC 153 at HSBC Arena drew a crowd of 16,844 for a live gate of between $2.5 and $2.6 million. ...
Former Bellator lightweight champion Eddie Alvarez's head kick KO of Patricky "Pitbull" Freire this past weekend at Bellator 76 was supposed to be Alvarez's swan song in the Bellator cage ... or was it? With the UFC interested, most MMA observers believed it was only a matter of time before Alvarez ended up in the UFC now that he is a free agent. Bellator makes the move from MTV2 to Spike TV, the former home of the UFC, in 2013. Alvarez told MMAjunkie.com Radio that he plans to meet with Viacom executives to discuss his future. Viacom owns Spike TV and MTV2.
"It's something that I didn't think was going to happen," Alvarez told MMAjunkie.com Radio. "It was put out there that I may be moving on, or they were going to move on without me. But now, it's a little bit different, and the people at Viacom want to speak and I'm definitely going to sit down and listen to what they have to say. (Bellator CEO) Bjorn (Rebney) took care of me for the past four years, and I think it's only right." ...
Bellator's Season 7 lightweight tournament kicks off with quarterfinal matchups at Bellator 77 on Friday at 8 p.m. on MTV2 from Reading, Pa. Here are the opening round matchups: Rich Clementi (44-21-1) vs. Alexander "Tiger" Sarnavskiy (20-0); Rene Nazare (10-2) vs. Ricardo Tirloni (14-2); Marcin Held (13-2) vs. Murad Machaev (9-0); and Dave Jansen (16-2) vs. Magomed Saadulaev (14-1). ...
Rich Clementi vs. Alexander "Tiger" Sarnavskiy
When: Friday
Where: Reading Eagle Theater, Reading, Pa.
How to watch: Bellator 77 main card on MTV2 at 8 p.m. (tape delayed); and Bellator 77 prelims on Spike.com at 3:30 p.m.
Outlook: Former UFC veteran Rich Clementi (44-21-1) goes up against undefeated Russian Alexander "Tiger" Sarnavskiy (20-0) in the opening round of Bellator's Season 7 lightweight tournament in the main event at Bellator 77.
Prediction: Sarnavskiy has finished 17 of his 20 fights, including 11 by submission, but he has not faced the same caliber of opposition as the well-traveled Clementi, who will use his experience to advance in the tournament.
Record in 2012 picks: 20-10
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subset: commoncrawl


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Police arrested a man Saturday on an outstanding warrant after he led them on a chase through southeast and north Amarillo.
Francisco Javier Cisneros, 23, of Amarillo, was booked into Potter County Correctional Center on an outstanding warrant for sexual assault of a child and evading arrest or detention in a motor vehicle with a previous felony conviction.
The chase began about 11:33 p.m. Saturday when Amarillo Police Department officers were dispatched to La Kiva Motel, 2501 East Interstate 40. They found a suspicious vehicle, a white 2000 Cadillac sedan thought to be involved in a drug deal, on the motel lot and tried to stop it.
The driver refused to stop and fled west on the access road and then north on South Ross Street, police said. The driver turned off the headlights when crossing the Ross-Mirror connector bridge, and police said they stopped the chase.
Police spotted the car again after the driver turned east on Amarillo Boulevard and turned the headlights back on. Officers were able to spike the vehicle's tires while the driver was going south and west on Ridgemere Boulevard, but the driver continued to flee on damaged tires.
Sgt. Brent Barbee said Department of Public Safety helicopter pilot and APD flight officer heard the call and responded as they were coming in service. The helicopter team kept an eye on the car as the vehicle drove west on Northeast Third Avenue and watched as the driver turned north and stopped near the 900 block of North Charlotte Street.
The driver ran east through an apartment complex parking lot before police caught him. He was checked for injuries and found to have none, Barbee said.
There were no narcotics found during the incident, Barbee said.


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Just about everything she is as a person and was as a basketball player was formed in her hometown. Guadalupe.
A town that takes up just one-square mile of the Valley. A place where you could drive through north-to-south in five minutes after four stop signs and one traffic light.
But this is where Rosa Bernasconi became one of the best basketball players the state has ever seen. Where she developed the shooting touch that made her high school coach convince a defensive-minded, pass-first freshman point guard to shoot more. Where that hustle and toughness forged while playing basketball and football in the backyard with six brothers, all but one of them older. Where those quick hands and instincts manifested, allowing Bernasconi to accumulate a still-standing state girls high school basketball record 793 career steals.
Guadalupe is the town that fashioned Rosa Bernasconi, the 1998 USA Today and Gatorade Arizona State Player of the Year and a member of the 2013 class of the azcentral.com Arizona High School Sports Hall of Fame.
Bernasconi, who as a four-year starter led Chandler Seton Catholic to an 110-7 record and two state titles her junior (1997) and senior season (1998), didn't become great because she wanted to. It just happened.
During the summer, her brothers would lift weights and run. So she tagged along. After those muscle- and conditioning-building workouts, she would go to a basketball court and shoot for hours.
"I wasn't necessarily working to get better," said Bernasconi, who now lives in Lawndale, Calif. "I was doing it because I liked it. It wasn't necessarily a chore, 'Oh, I got to go shoot 1,000 shots.' I didn't have that kind of structure. Or that 1-on-1 with a person showing me what to do, correcting my shot and how to shoot. It was more about going out and having fun. So I would go out to the park and shoot; I didn't know what I was doing. I just knew I liked shooting."
It wasn't just her ability to score — and do it at the most crucial of moments — that made Bernasconi formidable. It was being able to do everything else. She was especially known — at 5 feet 6 — for her defensive dominance.
She averaged 6.8 steals per game her senior season, her state career record is 140 more than the next-best total. She once had 17 steals in a game.
"A lot of the defense, that came more with instinct," said Bernasconi, who was also a four-year letterwinner in track and field, competing in high, long and triple jumps, and a three-year letterwinner in volleyball. "I just had a natural knack of where the ball was going to go or for reading the play.
"I can't explain it. It's one of those things that just happens. Even now when I go play in the rec league here, I come out with bruises because I'm all over the floor. If the ball is on the floor, I dive and go get it. It's just rec league; no one really cares. But it's just the mentality that I have and always had. I always leave it out on the floor and give it 100 percent. I'm just going to follow the ball and not even think about it."
Bernasconi, who went on to have a successful college career at Loyola Marymount as a four-year all-conference player, didn't play on a structured team until she played for Karen Self, who is still Seton Catholic's coach.
"I was incredibly lucky to coach Rosa in just my third year coaching," Self said. "Rosa was a game changer from the day she started as a freshmen. She, to this day, has the quickest hands of any player I have every seen.
"She was a once in a lifetime kind of player who made everyone around her better. To watch her grow in her leadership and skill set over four years was truly amazing."


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Mary Wolfe, 66
Published: Thursday, April 9, 2009 at 4:30 a.m.
Last Modified: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 at 9:14 p.m.
Mary Catherine Katie Wolfe, 66, of Hendersonville died Saturday, April 4, 2009, at Park Ridge Hospital.
A native of Everett, Wash., she lived in San Francisco before coming to Henderson County in 1996. She was the daughter of the late John Patrick and Olive Kuehn Wolfe.
She was employed as a child welfare worker and supervisor for the city and county of San Francisco for 29 years. She was of the Catholic faith.
She is survived by a son, Joshua Patrick Wolfe and wife, LaShawn Wolfe; four grandchildren, Julian, Kierra, Joshua and Josiah. She is also survived by three sisters and two brothers, Stephanie Ogden, John Wolfe, Sheelah Giaconini, Kelly Wolfe, and Bridget Buford; and 14 nieces and nephews.
A memorial service will be at 10 a.m. Wednesday, April 15, at the Clubhouse of Heritage Hills. In lieu of flowers, memorials may be made in her name to San Franciscos Department of Children, Youth & Their Families at the following address: DCYF, 1390 Market St., Suite 900, San Francisco, CA 94102. To read more and sign the online guest book, please visit www.shulerfuneralhome.com.
Shuler Funeral Home is assisting the family with the arrangements.
Reader comments posted to this article may be published in our print edition. All rights reserved. This copyrighted material may not be re-published without permission. Links are encouraged.
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Latest Stuff
Popular Stuff
As you may already know, Sony is working on a next-generation Xperia tablet to show-off at Sony's upcoming pre-IFA event on August 29th. This tablet was recently detailed on some leaked photos after it was successfully passed through the FCC in US.
These stunning leaked photos of the Sony Xperia tablet showcases the beautiful Magnesium-Aluminium body and the curved up design. New tablet will feature a 9.4-inch display with 1280×800-pixel resolution, supported by a Tegra 3 processor, along with 8MP camera on the back and 1MP camera on front.
According to the recent reports, the 16GB model of the Xperia tablet will cost about $399.99, $499.99 for 32GB and $599.99 for 64GB. Will be released in September. Stay tuned for more info.
[Via: New photos of the quad-core Sony Xperia Tablet show up UnWired View]
(All The Images, Trademarks, Logo's Shown on this Post are the property of their respective owners)


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Benchmark sees the re-election of President Obama as an event that could drive sales for Sturm, Ruger (RGR +3.3%) and Smith & Wesson (SWHC +9.1%) higher into 2013 and beyond. Though the firm expects underlying long-term organic growth in the sector to continue, it also sees "political" buying due to fears gun laws could become more restrictive.
Benchmark sees the re-election of President Obama as an event that could drive sales for Sturm,...
From other sites
Video at CNBC.com (Apr 5, 2016)
at CNBC.com (Dec 15, 2014)
at CNBC.com (Aug 27, 2014)
at CNBC.com (Aug 26, 2014)
at CNBC.com (Jul 28, 2014)
Comments (4)
Ah yes. I remember when Obama won his first term, the right wing fringe went apoplectic about what the new gubmint was going to do. It drove record business for guns and ammo. And then the Obama administration did... pretty much nothing to impact the ability to own guns.
I am buying more SW not only because of my hopes of growth, but because this is a fine American company which produces a fine product -- exceptional in terms of reliability, finish, state of the art design, construction, value, and warranty. I wish our country would produce other products -- such as automobiles and electronics this fine. I like purchasing and investing in the very best (I own two SM MP40s and a Mercedes) and would much prefer American made. (At least the Mercedes is mostly made in the U.S).
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Enjoy a little summer with this chic and delicate looking watch from Maxima. With a handmade and ornate finish, this analog watch for women designed for formal wear, is like a piece of jewellery to complete an attire. The owner of the watch on occasion, is bound to choose an outfit to match the watch.
Body and Design
This Maxima analog watch has a rectangular dial with two engraved lines moving out from the top and bottom of the dial into the watch straps, blending into it and making the strap and dial look like one whole beautiful unit. The strap is built of stainless steel which makes it look smooth and glossy and also makes it a durable watch. Designed like a bracelet with links, the watch is easy to wear. The dial has a width of 14.8 mm and a height of 19.8 mm. The watch strap has a band width of 11 mm. The Maxima watch comes with three display hands to indicate the time.
Functions and Other Features
This watch from Maxima is water resistant up to a depth of 30 metres which means that a few accidental splashes from a spilt beverage when you are dining out, will not spoil your watch or your night. The short haul from your car to the entrance of a building under a sudden cloudburst will not harm your watch either. This Maxima analog watch is a great watch for women to accessorize their favourite formal outfits with, and will earn them appreciation and compliments from others for their taste and style.
|Dial Dimensions
|Other Dimensions
|11 mm Band Width
|19.8 mm
|14.8 mm
|Style Code
|Ideal For
|1 Year Domestic Warranty
|Body Features
|Dial Shape
|Strap Type
|Strap Color
|Water Resistant
|Water Resistance Depth
|30 m
|Dial Color
|Strap Material
|Stainless Steel Strap
Please Note: All products sold on Flipkart are brand new and 100% genuine


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Over at the forums there's word you can probably waste your hard earned dollar on some Grove Square Hot Cocoa Cups Variety Cups. These cups will work in your Keurig K-Cup brewer, but so far our impressions of Grove Square haven't been all that great. They mostly have been packaging instant coffees, and other hot drinks into K-Cups and the results have been pretty terrible. But if instant is what you want in your coffee cup, then perhaps their instant cocoas are for you. The variety pack features Dark Chocolate, Peppermint, and Milk Chocolate flavors.
Green Mountain is going full steam on their Brew Over Ice offerings this Summer. It's perfectly timed with the heat wave in the US we've been having, and there's two sets of K-Cups - Vitamin Burst K-Cup packs and Sweet & Creamy Iced Coffee K-Cup packs.
Vitamin Burst K-Cup packs contain fruit that is gently dried to retain its active ingredients, and the Keurig brewer unlocks the fruit's power when brewed over ice. Each 8-oz. serving of Vitamin Burst is naturally sweetened, caffeine-free, contains no artificial colors or flavors, and is high in antioxidant vitamin C.
Vitamin Burst is currently available in two fruit flavors:
Starbucks Coffee Company has announced that Starbucks K-Cup packs are available in participating Starbucks retail stores nationwide. Starbucks is the exclusive, licensed super-premium coffee brand produced by Green Mountain Coffee Roasters Inc. for its Keurig® K-Cup Single Cup Brewers.
We're pretty excited to see how crowded at retail stores Starbucks will be with VIA, K-Cups, VUE Packs, and eventually all things Verismo their new single serve espresso and coffee machine in the Fall. It's an amazing amount of commitment to the single serve coffee space, and if anyone can make it work we believe Starbucks will.
We continue our series of San Francisco Bay OneCup Keurig Compatible Coffee Packs (a.k.a. "OneCups") today with their San Francisco Bay Organic Rainforest Blend OneCup Keurig Compatible Coffee Packs.
Brewing these OneCup Keurig Compatible Coffee Packs resulted in mild notes of cocoa which seemed to be the only scent we could determine in the final cup. We had been getting used to the smoky aromas in the previous OneCup offerings and were a bit disappointed that the aroma here wasn't more complex. Billed as a medium to dark roast, flavor revealed more cocoa/milk chocolate taste throughout and an almost woodsy character overall which yielded faint oily flavors on the finish. Very mild nutty notes were also hiding underneath.
Over in the Single Serve Coffee Forums there's word that a Canadian coffee roaster called Club Coffee has just released K-Cup compatible coffee pods. These coffee pods are much like the Rogers' Family Coffee OneCup coffee packs here in the United States. They do not require an adaptor, and have a foil top and coffee pod like pouch bottom.
Each coffee pod contains 10 grams of coffee and they seem to use the same packaged format as the Rogers' Family ones. We'll send our Canadian correspondent to investigate, and from our US intelligence these should be hitting shelves soon.
We continue our series of San Francisco Bay K-Cup Pods (a.k.a. "OneCups") today with their San Francisco Bay Fog Chaser OneCup Keurig Compatible Coffee Packs
Brewing these K-Cup Pods resulted in some faint smoky aromas during brewing, but once we inspected the final cup, we honestly couldn't smell anything discernible. It's like the aroma completely disappeared. Billed as a dark roast on the box (yet a light roast on their website… huh?), flavor was thankfully more robust than the scent with mostly notes of dark chocolate, some smoke & very faint nutty notes hiding underneath as well as some bread notes lurking near the finish.
Summer is coming and Green Mountain is offering new iced coffee K-Cups Sweet & Creamy Nutty Hazelnut Iced Coffee K-Cup Packs and Sweet & Creamy Regular Iced Coffee K-Cup Packs. Made with Donut Shop coffee, Green Mountain brings back the classic donut companion with this ideally balanced brew of the highest quality Arabica beans.
These coffees also run about 80 calories per K-Cup - so expect a little sweetness here right from the K-Cup portion pack. We do really love iced coffee with our Keurig, and not having to make a trip to our local cafe for a sweet iced coffee is going to save us money this summer.
We continue our series of San Francisco Bay K-Cup Pods (a.k.a. "OneCups") today with their San Francisco Bay French Roast K-Cup Pods. Much like their decaf version, brewing these K-Cup Pods resulted in rich smoky aromas with notes of milk chocolate… yes, MILK chocolate. We were a bit surprised to see a deviation from the norm of dark chocolate aromas which seemed predominant in most dark roasts, so this was a nice & pleasant alternative. Billed as a dark roast, flavor was earthy & smoky with predominant dark chocolate notes up front with faint notes of molasses in the background. We also detected a slight oily taste near the finish, but it wasn't distracting at all. We found it was kind of an odd pairing between aroma & flavor since we got scents of milk chocolate while having flavors of dark chocolate. Regardless, we liked this subtle nuance & found it make for an interesting cup.
We recently started reviewing Keurig Vue-Cups and decided to take a step back and compare the new Keurig Vue V700 to one of our favorite K-Cup brewers which we've been using for years, the Keurig B70 Platinum. We thought it would be fun to do an informative comparison between the Keurig Brewers so that new users could get an idea of the major differences between both machines as well as some of our likes/dislikes between the two. We'll start things off with the Keurig B70 Platinum and follow-up with the Keurig Vue V700. Our apologies for the length of this article... you may want to grab a few cups of single serve coffee before reading this monster-sized "Mega Review" :-)
The Eight O'Clock Coffee Company (a member of the Tata Global Beverages family of brands), have announced a multiyear agreement to make Eight O'Clock coffee, Tetley tea, and Good Earth tea available in K-Cup and Vue packs for Keurig Single Cup Brewing systems. This new relationship will provide Keurig brewer owners with additional choices by having Eight O'Clock coffee, Tetley tea, and Good Earth tea readily available for their brewers and we think more choices is a good thing.
Eight O'Clock Coffee Company and GMCR plan to make a select offering of Eight O'Clock coffee K-Cup packs available throughout the U.S. and Canada beginning in fall 2012. In the U.S, Tetley teas, and in the U.S. and Canada, Good Earth teas intend to join the K-Cup pack collection in 2013. There's no word on the exact dates for Vue Packs to be available for the Keurig Vue system for any of these brands.


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------I don't really make mistakes ... I create "learning opportunities"! Murphy says: The better you match the thread to the fabric, the more likely you will need to rip some stitches out! I spend more quality time with my seamripper than I like ...
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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geography of Poland/Archive1
- 1 Powiat naming convention
- 2 More stub templates
- 3 Powiat and województwo
- 4 Terminology
- 5 Vote
- 5.1 Vote Powiat vs. County
- 5.2 Gmina vs. Commune
- 5.3 Vote results
- 6 Analysis
- 7 Types of administrative districts
- 7.1 powiat ziemski
- 7.2 powiat grodzki
- 7.3 gmina wiejska
- 7.4 gmina miejska
- 7.5 gmina miejsko-wiejska
- 8 Names of offices
- 8.1 wójt
- 8.2 starosta
- 8.3 wojewoda
- 9 New template
- 10 County chief?
- 11 Staroste
- 12 Województwo, wojewoda
- 13 Official English names used in Polish Government
- 14 Plurals
- 15 Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team cooperation
- 16 Expert opinion
Powiat naming convention[edit]
Currently there are two systems used for local administrative divisions here in the English wiki: the one that translates their names to English and the one that leaves them in their original version.
- The earlier is represented by Counties of Sweden, where the pages are placed under Blekinge County, Dalarna County and Län is but a reference.
- The latter is represented by French Départements, where the pages are placed under their original names.
What do we do with powiats? Should the pages be created under Przasnysz County or Powiat przasnyski? Or perhaps Powiat of Przasnysz? Or perhaps we do not need the powiat pages at all and could simply place a table with powiat info and map at Przasnysz? Halibutt 11:37, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
- Without being exposed to a lot of the in depth considerations, my "gut" feeling is that "county" is wrong and some inclusion of "Powiat" is right. I doubt that someone would go searching for an article on a specific Powiat (or for a specific "county" either), but would stumble on these articles while searching a related term, so what words are in the title is probably not going to affect whether someone finds the article. I think putting "Powiat" in the title provides some disambiguation. While most English speakers won't know what a Powiat is, the map graphics will quickly clue them that the article deals with a small district of area. Since the borders changed several times in modern history while in Polish control, and a couple more times before that while in Prussian control (but called by the term "Kreis"), there could conceivable be a series of articles about the districts as they existed in earlier division schemes. Since these articles are about a specific period of time, the article should reflect that uniqueness and not be general. (I don't seem to be able to find the right words, hope my meaning is coming through anyway) Bwood 04:07, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Also, without researching it, I suspect I would feel the same about the Sweden articles, that using "counties" is wrong, unless there is no other term for the units. It sounds like they used "counties" when describing "Lans", and if so, then I totally disagree, for the same reasons as above. Bwood 04:14, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I like your idea of splitting the history of certain lands onto several different, unrelated articles, especially that the borders of units of local administration in Poland are quite stable and in most cases were not changed much since the Middle Ages, even the occupying powers used to change the names and not the borders of powiats or gminas. But that is a completely different story. Anyway, I hope some others will speak out soon. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 19:10, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)
- Well, I'm a systems programmer, used to envisioning worst case scenarios about how big a system will grow into, and how diverse the uses it will be put to. Also, I have a personal interest in certain niches that a general "one-size-fits-all" approach will not deal fairly with. You've coverered yourself somewhat by including the term "local" in your above statement, but the borders of Polands "counties" have changed ?four? times since the end of WWI. And in the 1800s, Prussia/Germany split most of the original Kreise in half. Trying to view a topic from all different angles, for various audiences, in a single article is unrealistic, especially when it was subject to different systems of organization through time. But, anyway, we can agree to disagree on general principles. Bwood 00:43, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- IMHO we should stay with ... for example Lubaczow_County not Lubaczów_County, and maybe put in article something like "Lubaczów County (in Polish powiat lubaczowski )" . Nie napisze wiecej po angielsku bo kalecze a po polsku ktos moze nie zrozumiec :). Fqsik 20:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- And why not use the only Polish diacryte that is supported by the English wiki? Especially that after changing it to Lubaczów (I thought of it today) the name would be 100% correct, there are no other diacrytes in the name. However, the main problem is not with the version of the name used. It is with the naming of the units of administrative division. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 21:22, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
If anyone is advocating using any diacriticals in the article name, I believe that is strictly prohibited in WikiPedia. They can only be used within the article, AFAIK. 04:23, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- No, diacritics is not forbidden on Wikipedia, it's simply that the English wiki does not support non-Western characters and that's why they should be avoided so far. However, there are lots of diacrytes that are supported and those should be used in most languages. See for instance façade, Île-de-France, Sütterlin or Málaga. The only such diacryte that is present in the Polish language is ó and I believe that it should be used like all the other diacrytes are. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 06:51, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
- Are you talking in the article or in the title? Unless I'm reading this wrong.. "Also, for naming pages the restriction to ISO-8859-1 is strict, no characters that are not ISO-8859-1 may be used. See Wikipedia:Special characters for a list of non-ASCII characters that are allowed." (from: Wikipedia:Naming conventions). In the list of ISO-8859-1 characters provided in the links on that page, most Polish diacritals are not included. Further, the guidelines point out that special characters used in article titles require most users to know that the title uses them when they perform a search. Most English users don't know how to type non-ASCII characters on their keyboards. Usage inside the article is best, however, for accuracy and for education. Bwood 08:22, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- To make things clear - I've never seen anyone propose using [[Lech Wałęsa]] instead of [[Lech Walesa|Lech Wałęsa]] on the English wiki. IMO the English wiki should be updated to allow non-ISO-8859-1 characters, but so far all the articles are under non-diacritical names (except for the ó sign), so there's no problem. Also, I don't really get why did you start this topic. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 00:20, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
Proposed scheme[edit]
- All right then, since noone seems to be interested in the topic, I suggest the following translation scheme:
- pl:Województwo mazowieckie - Masovian Voivodship
- pl:Powiat poznański - Powiat of Poznań
- dzielnica - borrough
- The reason behind leaving the word powiat instead of translating it to county is that the very term has got some historical connotations (not as clearly visible in the US, but still obvious in UK, for instance). The powiats had nothing to do with counts and today have slightly different competences than their British or Unitedstatesian counterparts. Any comments? Halibutt 18:12, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I humbly propose that a powiat be a district, and a województwo - a province. In particular, I'm against the use of the mediaeval term "voivodship" to describe the present-day unit of administrative division. See also http://www.serwistlumacza.com/texts/tlumnazw.html MCiura 19:46, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Well, that is one of the options. I'd strongly oppose switching from Voivodship to Province since the mediaeval term is used in 21st century as well and I like it more. As to the district - it's definitely better than the county. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 21:22, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
- I oppose the use of translated identifiers like "county" and "province" as they may conflict with other articles and/or are too general. I feel that the current Polish term should be used. (Example: article "Province of Poznan", which redirects to "Province of Posen" which is about the historical Prussian province ("Provinz"). Special care should be taken to make sure that there is a disambiguation page (and links to it from all pertinant pages) so that a reader can find the article that best addresses their interests. Bwood 04:23, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Back to the main topic: I hope some native English speaker could tell us whether the suffix -ship is ever used in English to mean: a territory ruled by a —. Does the -ship in voivodship suggest the domain or rather the office of a voivod?
- Yes, I think that is fairly accurate, more so office, but also the territory that it carries with it. I can cite "township", which doesn't really follow the above, but still denotes a territory. Bwood 05:54, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Besides, province could be a good English equivalent of województwo, but I guess that palatinate would be a better one; palatinatus was the word used for województwo (and palatinus for wojewoda) in pre-partition documents written in Latin. Modern Polish naming of administrative units is clearly based on historical terminology, and this should be also reflected in English translations. Moreover, in pre-partition times, prowincja meant a very large portion of the whole country; basically, there were only three provinces - Greater Poland, Lesser Poland and Lithuania, each consisting of a number of palatinates/województwa.
The same goes for powiat which may be translated as district (though it's very ambiguous) or - from a historical POV - as prefecture.
-- Kpalion 22:29, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- If we want to use historical similarities, the starosta could be translated as sheriff... [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 08:02, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)
- But you're not serious here, are you? Anyway, I'm not talking about historical similarities but about Latin words that were once officially used in Poland. -- Kpalion 00:07, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've just found out that wojewoda is also called "waywode" in English (see Brainy Dictionary), and hence there also is a "waywodeship". -- Kpalion 15:00, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Gosh, I thought that this was some sort of a mistake or a very distant barbarisation, but apparently it's used by webster even... Anyway, let's make the things slightly more organised and working. Especially that there are some wikipedians working on Polish administrative division and the sooner we come up with something the better.
- Below is a list of proposals so far, feel free to add your own proposals or correct it should I get something wrong. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 21:22, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
|sołectwo, hutor, etc
|palatinate / voivodship
|prefecture / district
Proponuje by uzywac roznych kolorow: Wojewodztwa brazowy Podlasie Voivodship, miasta szary przyklad Krakow, osiedla bezowy przyklad Centrum. Dla powiatow i gmin rowniez odmienne.
Na Podlasie Voivodship propozycja tabelki do wojewodztw i szablonik (z herbem) jak np na Lomza. Rowniez szablonik do osiedli (z flaga) jak na centrum. --Emax 22:47, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Could you please translate that to English? Bwood does not speak Polish and I suppose it would be a good idea to let the others take part in the project. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 23:50, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
Bot-generated articles[edit]
At pl, there's a project to use a bot to generate/update articles about Polish cities, counties and communes: pl:Wikipedia:Automatycznie generowane artykuły. Maybe the same data (when it's compiled) could be used to generate them at en:? Here are two examples of articles which will be used as templates for future bot-generated ones: Gostyn, Stary Gostyn. Any comments? Ausir 22:21, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
|Powiat (County)
|Gmina (Commune)
--Emax 20:00, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
More stub templates[edit]
Currently, we have only one: {{Poland-geo-stub}}. It is getting very large, with over 800 articles. See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive13#Poland_geo-stub_split for proposal on splitting this category further. Division by voivodships seems like a good idea - if any voivodship would have 30+ articles (wikiproject minimum limit), we can create a relavant stub. A Poland-struct-stub seems more disputed, but I also think it would be useful. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:46, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Powiat and województwo[edit]
Having arrived belatedly to this discussion, but feeling strongly about the subject, I would like to add my voice to those who advocate using familiar English-language terms where feasible: hence, "county" for powiat, and "province" for województwo.
I suspect that this model could be applied satisfactorily to most countries; and that seems preferable to operating with dozens of equivalent terms. logologist 09:30, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
I would like to help making the usage of administrative terms consistent (I have started with Powiat of Chodzież and Powiat of Czarnków-Trzcianka). While looking over the various pre-existing county/powiat articles, the terminology used to describe the administrative district often varies:
- communes, municipalities, or gminas
- Municipal, city, town, or urban communes
- rural or land communes
- town-rural, city-land, or mixed communes.
The gmina names themselves vary often: Powiat of Białystok has "Gmina of Choroszcz", while Powiat of Gorzów Wielkopolski just has Lubiszyn instead of Gmina of Lubiszyn.
Shouldn't the categories be renamed (ala Category:Land counties of Greater Poland to Category:Powiats of Greater Poland)?
Finally, User:Logologist has suggested that Voivodships should be Provinces, while Halibutt and Balcer support Voivodships. I am neutral on the matter. Olessi 21:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
- A few remarks about Polish województwo names as they appear in the English Wikipedia:
- To begin with, the word "voivodship" is a bastardization: it is neither good Polish nor good English. Mercifully, it does not even appear in a quarter (4) of the English "voivodship" names (Lower Silesia, Lesser Poland, Warmia-Masuria, West Pomerania).
- More to the point, the Polish województwo names are rendered into "English" in a totally chaotic way. I count about 5 different styles (some names are nondescript):
- 1. Polish noun: Łódź Voivodship, Lublin Voivodship, Opole Voivodship, Podlasie Voivodship.
- 2. Polish adjective: Lubuskie Voivodship, Świętokrzyskie Voivodship.
- 3. Polish and Latinized nouns: Warmia-Masuria.
- 4. Latinized adjectives: Masovian Voivodship, Pomeranian Voivodship, Silesian Voivodship, Kuyavian-Pomeranian Voivodship.
- 5. Anglicized and/or Latinized miscellany: Lower Silesia, Lesser Poland, Subcarpathian Voivodship, Greater Poland Voivodship, West Pomerania.
- This hodgepodge could be rationalized, using the województwo's name in its Polish noun form, followed by "Province."
- logologist 06:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
- Thus:
- Łódź Province
- Lublin Province
- Opole Province
- Podlasie Province
- Lubusz Province
- Święty Krzyż Province
- Warmia-Mazury Province
- Mazowsze Province
- Pomorze Province
- Śląsk Province
- Kujawy-Pomorze Province
- Dolny Śląsk Province
- Małopolska Province
- Podkarpacie Province
- Wielkopolska Province
- Zachodnie Pomorze Province
- logologist 01:35, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
- Thus:
- And by all means let's use "county" as the English equivalent for the Polish "powiat," in tune with the practice in most of the world. (Thus: powiat's name, followed by "County": e.g., "Puławy County.") logologist 02:50, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
- This has been discussed endlessly, both here, at Voivodships of Poland, Voivodship, Wikipedia:Wikiproject Geography of Poland and perhaps even more places. So, instead of repeating all my arguments here, I'll simply make my stance.
- no provinces. Province is a region composed of several voivodships in Poland. If we call voivodships provinces, then how would we call actual provinces?
- county vs. powiat... I would not oppose any way, though I believe powiat is a neat solution, for the reasons stated elsewhere.
- AFAIR Podlasie is called Podlachia.
- Święty Krzyż Province or Święty Krzyż Voivodship seems the worst option possible. Hardly anyone in Poland knows that etymology, not to mention that barely anyone calls the voivodship by the name of the mountain of Święty Krzyż. Instead, it is called after the Holy Cross Mountains.
- Mazury is Masuria in English. Why should we use the Polish name where there is a perfect English name available? Same for Pomerania, Masovia, Silesia, Lesser Poland and so on.
The word "province" is no longer used in Poland to designate an entity larger than the modern województwo; the old usage is now of purely historical interest. No one in Poland now speaks of the "prowincja" of Małopolska, Wielkopolska or Lithuania. Any potential confusion can be avoided by rendering the old concept of prowincja using its Polish spelling (prowincja).
In what language is Podlasie called Podlachia?
Do you really think that "Świętokrzyskie [adjective] Voivodship" is better in English than "Święty Krzyż" (noun)? English as a rule (offhand, I can't think of an exception) doesn't use adjectives, only nouns, as names. There is, for example, no "New-Yorkan State."
Why use Latinized names (Masuria, Pomerania, Masovia, Silesia) or anglicized names (Lesser Poland) when the Polish names are perfectly good? Do we "translate" most French geographical names into English?
A number of the Latinized names are associated in most non-Poles' minds with those areas' occupation (therefore, "ownership") by the powers that partitioned Poland and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
logologist|Talk 11:44, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Prowincja can be a insulting term in the modern Poland for example "They are from the province" is used to portay people as inferior in social status. CIA World Factbook I think has a good solution: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pl.html 16 provinces (wojewodztwa, singular - wojewodztwo); Dolnoslaskie, Kujawsko-Pomorskie, Lodzkie, Lubelskie, Lubuskie, Malopolskie, Mazowieckie, Opolskie, Podkarpackie, Podlaskie, Pomorskie, Slaskie, Swietokrzyskie, Warminsko-Mazurskie, Wielkopolskie, Zachodniopomorskie
After the simplified name we can give exact Polish sounding version. We also should split wojewodztwa from regions-right now it comes to absurdities like some administrative regions in Poland having German names given also because they are combined with entries of historic regions. --Molobo 20:09, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The English adjective "provincial" has the same deprecatory potential as the Polish expression, "z prowincji."
Nevertheless, as the Wikipedia article on "Province" demonstrates, "province" is the usual English translation for the secondary level of government in most countries. (A few countries do use alternative terms — "state," "prefecture," "län," "region," "Land," "muhfazah.")
The 18th-century Polish "prowincyja," or its plural "prowincyje," referring to Wielkopolska, Małopolska or Lithuania, appears in the basic text of the Polish Constitution of May 3, 1791 (available on Wikisource) a grand total of 8 times — 7 of them in the closing "Signers" section.
It would seem a shame, in this case, to break ranks with nearly all the rest of the world and abandon a universally recognizable term, "province," from a misguided loyalty to a usage that has long been obsolete in Poland and that was seldom really indispensable even before the Partitions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
- logologist|Talk 04:56, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- I prefer county to poviat. I think that we use Polish terms so often that many English speakers may have problems with understanding our articles without looking up every definition. I also like province, but I agree that Święty Krzyż sounds strange. Isn't Świętokrzyskie sometimes used as a noun, e.g. when we say "w Świętokrzyskiem"? BTW Isn't it high time to vote and have something decided. Lack of decision is the worst decision. We only create more and more articles using inconsistent terminology.--SylwiaS | talk 10:45, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, świętokrzyskie was the only województwo I hesitated about. I toyed with "Holy Cross" Province — the name derives from that of the Holy Cross Mountains, Góry świętokrzyskie. But I was determined to avoid translation. Perhaps, indeed, it should be left "Świętokrzyskie." logologist|Talk 10:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- I prefer county to poviat. I think that we use Polish terms so often that many English speakers may have problems with understanding our articles without looking up every definition. I also like province, but I agree that Święty Krzyż sounds strange. Isn't Świętokrzyskie sometimes used as a noun, e.g. when we say "w Świętokrzyskiem"? BTW Isn't it high time to vote and have something decided. Lack of decision is the worst decision. We only create more and more articles using inconsistent terminology.--SylwiaS | talk 10:45, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I am for using voivodship and county. Perhaps we should have a vote? Also, those of you who have not read through Talk:Voivodships of Poland should do so - there are quite a few interesting arguments and statistics there.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I propose we begin with the perhaps somewhat less contentious "powiat"–"county" controversy, and leave "voivodship"–"province" for a second round. This will give people a chance to review the arguments in the second question, and perhaps debate it more definitively. logologist|Talk 03:52, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- I still believe that your unilateral, single-handed move of voivodships to their Polish-English names was a step in the bad direction and would like to fix that as soon as possible. The geographical regions have their proper names in English and I doubt we should use their Polish equivalents where there is no need to. Mazovia is Mazovia in English and not Mazowsze. I have a feeling that the internationally-recognized geographical terms are much better than their Polish counterparts, as the latter tell the reader nothing. Halibutt 09:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
No doubt by "Mazovia" you mean "Masovia." Either way, I hate to break it to you, outside Poland and perhaps some parts of Europe, not too many people have heard of Mazovia, Masovia or Mazowsze. So I doubt that it makes much difference to 99% of humanity. Accordingly, using authentic Polish names for Polish places seems the appropriate thing, and — who knows — may spare foreign visitors some confusion. logologist|Talk 09:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
After reading the discussion here and at Talk:Voivodships of Poland, I support using the more specialized "Voivodship" instead of "Province". As a native English speaker, I personally prefer using English/Latin names like "Masovia" or "Masovian" instead of "Mazowsze" or "Mazowieckie". I have been trying to learn Polish pronunciation and the names are still difficult for me to read- it would be very difficult for someone with no background in Polish at all (the majority of Wiki-users) to try to read the words. I don't have an easy solution for "Województwo świętokrzyskie", however. I agree with Molobo that Lower Silesia and the current Dolny Śląsk Voivodship need to be differentiated the way that Masovia and Mazowsze Voivodship are (any others?). BTW, Podlachia is the Latin name for Podlasie (Podlasia is also used occasionally). I think this discussion could use more input by native English users, IMO. Olessi 07:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
- As to what logologist wrote above, Mazovia is just another spelling for Masovia and seems a tad more popular in BrE (and as such is used by BE, for instance). And both are English names, contrary to Mazowsze. I believe the WP:Use English rules apply here, regardless of how many people have heard of the term. The fact that only a slight minority of people heard of the city of Warsaw does not mean that we should start referring to it with its Polish name on English wiki. Halibutt 12:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's vote on Powiat vs. County and Gmina vs. Commune for start. BTW If you think that this proposal should be expanded, please, feel free to do so.--SylwiaS | talk 01:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
By the way, we're going to generate articles about all powiats and gminas with a bot, like we dit at pl:, but we'll wait until this vote and the voivodship one are concluded. Ausir 09:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Vote Powiat vs. County[edit]
Powiat i.e. Powiat of Puławy[edit]
- Halibutt 00:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Gdarin | talk 09:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Slawojarek 09:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- D T G 18:36, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- Dobromila 09:46, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Poviat i.e. Poviat of Puławy[edit]
County, i.e. Puławy County[edit]
- Support --SylwiaS | talk 01:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support - Calgacus 02:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support — logologist|Talk 02:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support: Anatopism 21:27, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support — Chris 73 | Talk 08:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support --Ghirla | talk 09:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support -- Szopen 12:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support -- Ausir 09:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support, though I'm fine with the original version, too. —Nightstallion (?) 20:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support, and agree with Nightstallion. Olessi 01:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- Sipport, I'm all for the translation English county - Polish powiat, both ways ;-) Taw 20:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support F. Antares 20:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support - I am assuming that the Polish term powiat will be prominently mentioned and linked to in the articles, and appropriate redirects from Powiat of ... will be created. Balcer 03:14, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support --Lysytalk 01:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
- Support Sonitus 02:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Mattergy 07:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
District, i.e. Puławy district[edit]
- Support MCiura 09:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support this is the only correct translation, "county" means nothing; powiat is also perfect Juro 02:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support District is very clear. No need to make a new English word powiat. Bejnar 04:35, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Gmina vs. Commune[edit]
Gmina of Choroszcz[edit]
- Gdarin | talk 09:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Slawojarek 09:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- D T G 18:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Choroszcz Gmina[edit]
Gmina Choroszcz[edit]
Choroszcz Commune[edit]
- Support--SylwiaS | talk 01:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support - Calgacus 02:10, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support — logologist|Talk 02:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support: Anatopism 21:27, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support — Chris 73 | Talk 08:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support --Ghirla | talk 09:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support -- Ausir 09:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support, though I'm fine with the original version, too. —Nightstallion (?) 20:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support, and agree with Nightstallion. Olessi 01:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support F. Antares 20:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support --Lysytalk 01:19, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
- Dobromila 09:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Mattergy 07:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Choroszcz municipality[edit]
- Support MCiura 09:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support , again the best translation, but gmina is also perfect Juro 02:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support , municipality is widely used in English. Commune is French and has other unrelated meanings in English. Bejnar 04:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
No article on [[gmina|commune]]s at all[edit]
- This could be better described in the articles on capital towns rather than split between three articles (one on town, one on commune which, in most cases includes little more than the town itself and one on the powiat. Halibutt 00:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support Halibutt, because 1) he did most of the work on those articles 2) I have never ever heard commune used in relation to gmina. Veto to communes!--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- I checked the articles on pl Wiki, and they are short indeed. It might be a good idea to merge them with towns/villages. Still, we need to have one term to call them.--SylwiaS | talk 05:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- Unlike some countries, where towns and communes are coterminous, the gmina and its seat are very much separate entities. Most Polish Wikipedia articles are short because the initial version was bot-generated. Ausir 22:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
- I checked the articles on pl Wiki, and they are short indeed. It might be a good idea to merge them with towns/villages. Still, we need to have one term to call them.--SylwiaS | talk 05:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- Indeed gmina and its capital town are distinct entities. However, the basic levels of administration as small as gminas are completely non-notable and unencyclopedic. Note that in 99% of cases the commune consists of the town itself and.. little more than a village or two. Nothing that couldn't be fitted in the article on the capital town. Anyway, I believe the decision to start the voting was a tad premature, as most of the people cast their votes before all of the proposals were added to the list. Halibutt 08:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- A village or two? An average commune has 24 municipalities or 17 with sołectwo status (2478 communes, about 60,000 towns and villages in Poland, 42,000 sołectwos). Ausir 08:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
- Does it mean that every single village should have its article in Wikipedia? 60k articles saying that XXX is a village in Poland would add little to wikipedia except for the number of separate articles of sub-stub quality. Halibutt 14:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I believe that every village in the world is by definition notable enough to be in Wikipedia, even if it starts as a short stub. The stubs generated by a bot in Polish Wikipedia are being constantly expanded (not to mention it led to cleaning up the whole mess in our old village articles), although we only have the 42k sołectwos, not all 60k villages. An example of a good gmina article can be pl:Gmina Boronów. Polish and English Wikipedia will certainly eventually have articles about all Polish villages - it's only a matter of time. I doubt anyone would succesfully AfD a village article, anyway. Ausir 19:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
- Heh, last days at pl-wiki were described couple of villages in... Czech Republic (pl:Bocanovice, pl:Chotěbuz, pl:Mosty u Jablunkova, pl:Nýdek, pl:Ropice) :) So why do not describe Polish villages at enwiki? Even if there wouldn't be any bot-generating action, I will try to describe gminas in powiat cieszyński, only waiting for decision about naming standards... D T G 21:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
- Does it mean that every single village should have its article in Wikipedia? 60k articles saying that XXX is a village in Poland would add little to wikipedia except for the number of separate articles of sub-stub quality. Halibutt 14:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
- A village or two? An average commune has 24 municipalities or 17 with sołectwo status (2478 communes, about 60,000 towns and villages in Poland, 42,000 sołectwos). Ausir 08:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
- Can't the bot run here? Invite him! :-) Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Definitions of "District" and "Municipality"?[edit]
Since voting began above, "Puławy District" and "Choroszcz Municipality" have been added. What are the Polish originals of these terms, and what do they refer to? Definitions would be helpful, if we are to vote on them too. logologist|Talk 15:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Is "District" supposed to be a synonym for "County," and "Municipality" — for "Commune"? logologist|Talk 15:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- If I understand the intent correctly, I think "District" might perhaps be better reserved for a term such as "Ziemia." As for "Municipality," "Commune" has the advantage of requiring a third as many syllables and being equally applicable to non-city entities. logologist|Talk 17:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- I'd reserve district for dystrykt, that is the historical units of administration introduced by the Nazis. Halibutt 02:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- Fine — use "dystrykt" for the Nazi entities, and let's use the English "district" for Polish entities! logologist|Talk 04:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- I'd reserve district for dystrykt, that is the historical units of administration introduced by the Nazis. Halibutt 02:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- So, we'd have Districts (gmina), Distrikts (voivodship-sized in fact) and Dystrykts (used to refer to non-Polish entities). A perfect solution I'd say. So unambiguous... But seriously, it's been discussed ad nauseam and I still fail to see why should we invent our own names when there's a perfectly fitting set of names. Halibutt 06:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Miasto na prawach powiatu, Gmina miejska etc.[edit]
How to translate things like gmina miejska, miasto na prawach powiatu etc. I don't feel it's right to translate them county/commune, even though i support calling normal powiats/gminas "county/commune". Taw 20:32, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
- It would have to be researched how these expressions are used. "Gmina miejska" might, for example, be rendered as "city commune"; and "miasto na prawach powiatu," as "county city." But the best thing would be to determine how the expressions are used functionally, then find the best English functional equivalents. In some cases, it might not be necessary to translate the entire clumsy expression. Anatopism 21:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
- I gather that the term "commune" is used both for cities and for non-city entities, e.g. for rural areas; hence it seems that "commune" ("gmina") cannot be translated into English simply as "city." Anatopism 22:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
- It would have to be researched how these expressions are used. "Gmina miejska" might, for example, be rendered as "city commune"; and "miasto na prawach powiatu," as "county city." But the best thing would be to determine how the expressions are used functionally, then find the best English functional equivalents. In some cases, it might not be necessary to translate the entire clumsy expression. Anatopism 21:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
- Gmina miejska is urban commune, I think. Ausir 23:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Vote results[edit]
Ok, I think we can close the vote in favour of "Puławy County" and "Choroszcz Commune", and start renaming the articles. I find Balcer's point valid, so the terms "powiat" and "gmina" should be mentioned. Maybe simply it should take this form in the lead of the articles:
Puławy County (pl: powiat puławski)... --SylwiaS | talk 17:09, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
- Concur. logologist|Talk 15:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- Or even Puławy County (pl: powiat puławski, other translations: Powiat of Puławy, Puławy District, Puławy Poviat)... Ausir 17:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's an external link with analysis of this situation, citing two biggest and most popular Polish-English/English-Polish dictionaries and other sources: http://accurapid.com/journal/29poldic.htm
Here's a summary (not all of the terms were given in the article, I also added some from the discussion above):
|Kosciuszko Foundation
|Ministry of Interior website
|borough leader
|district governor
|county foreman
|provincial governor
|voivod/voivodship governor
Based on this, I'd say county and leaving powiat in the Polish are probably just as legitimate. Using district is a pretty bad idea, as it is used as a translation of powiat by KF and as a translation of gmina by Oxford-PWN, not to mention rejon and dystrykt. County is the most popular choice among Polish translators. On the other hand, looks like "poviat" is recommended by Polish Society of Economic, Legal and Court Translators (TEPIS) [1].
As for gmina, if we are not to use the ambiguous district recommended by Oxford-PWN, I'd say commune is the best choice, as it is the recommended option for European countries in KF. Commune seems to be the most popular choice among Polish translators, although "gmina" is recommended by TEPIS.
As for województwo, it's even tougher - two major dictionaries support "province", while the voivodships themselves use different terms on the official websites:
|Official website
|Lower Silesia Voivodeship
|The Voivodeship of Lower Silesia
|Dolnośląskie Voivodeship
|Kujawsko-Pomorskie Voivodeship
|The Voivodeship of Cuiavia and Pomerania
|Kujawsko-Pomorskie Voivodeship
|no English website
|The Voivodeship of Lublin
|Lubelskie Voivodeship
|Lubuskie Province
|The Voivodeship of Lubusz
|Lubuskie Voivodeship
|Lodz Voivodship
|The Voivodeship of Łódź
|Łódzkie Voivodeship
|Małopolska Region
|The Voivodeship of Lesser Poland
|Małopolskie Voivodeship
|Mazowieckie Voivodeship
|The Voivodeship of Mazovia
|Mazowieckie Voivodeship
|Opolskie Voivodeship
|The Voivodeship of Opole
|Opolskie Voivodeship
|no English website
|The Voivodeship of Sub-Carpathia
|Podkarpackie Voivodeship
|no English website
|The Voivodeship of Podlassia
|Podlaskie Voivodeship
|Pomorskie Voivodeship
|The Voivodeship of Pomerania
|Pomorskie Voivodeship
|Śląsk Voivodeship
|The Voivodeship of Silesia
|Śląskie Voivodeship
|Świętokrzyskie Voivodship
|The Voivodeship of Kielce
|Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship
|no English website
|The Voivodeship of Varmia and Masuria
|Warmińsko-Mazurskie Voivodeship
|Wielkopolska Region
|The Voivodeship of Greater Poland
|Wielkopolskie Voivodeship
|Zachodniopomorskie Voivodeship
|The Voivodeship of Western Pomerania
|Zachodniopomorskie Voivodeship
As you can see, half of the official websites use "voivodeship", the term recommended by TEPIS. Only 2 use "voivodship", the term currently used in Wikipedia. Ausir 13:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- Really surprising :) For me voivedship sound the same indifferently as voivodship, on the other hand I used to term voivodship here. Will be any voting about województwa? And when will be any sum up of voting about powiaty and gminy? D T G 20:51, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the charts, Ausir. I think we should have a voting about "województwa" soon, but maybe there are people who'd like to say something more about it before the voting starts. I wouldn't like to hear again that it was premature. So please, if someone thinks there is anything more to say about it, do it now, so that we could start the voting soon.--SylwiaS | talk 17:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we should first give people some time to present their proposals and only then start the vote. Ausir 17:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I proposed a week on Wikipedia talk:Polish Wikipedians' notice board, but if you or anyone else think that more time is needed I'm fine with it.--SylwiaS | talk 17:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
- We could start the vote on the translation of the word "województwo" now, since the available options are fairly obvious, but it's trickier for names of the individual voivodeships. Whether it's voivodship, voivodeship or province is an entirely different issue than whether it's Voivodeship of Lower Silesia, Lower Silesian Voivodship, Województwo Dolnośląskie or Dolny Śląsk Province. For the latter, I think the first vote should be more general (as in, Polish names or Latin/English names) and after the general vote a more specific one should be held. Ausir 17:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Types of administrative districts[edit]
Some other terms where we need to choose a translation to be used in Wikipedia.
powiat ziemski[edit]
====county==== (Any county that is not a "city-county" — see below.)
- Anatopism 15:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- logologist|Talk 15:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- KonradWallenrod 20:46, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- SylwiaS | talk 19:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Mattergy 07:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
land county[edit]
Used by the government.
- Ausir 19:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
KonradWallenrod 08:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- D T G 11:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Shaqspeare 07:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
rural county[edit]
- Sonitus 02:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
logologist|Talk 06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- "Rural" is not a good idea to me since they also contain cities. Ausir 07:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- What exactly does "ziemski" denote here? logologist|Talk 08:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Ziemski literally means "land" - it denotes that it does not consist only of one city, as powiat grodzki does. Ausir 08:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- What exactly does "ziemski" denote here? logologist|Talk 08:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
powiat grodzki[edit]
====city-county==== (e.g., Warsaw City-County — as in "City and County of San Francisco" and "City and County of Denver").
- Anatopism 15:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- logologist|Talk 15:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- KonradWallenrod 20:46, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Ausir 19:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- SylwiaS | talk 19:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Shaqspeare 07:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Mattergy 07:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
urban county[edit]
- Sonitus 02:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
logologist|Talk 06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC) KonradWallenrod 08:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- D T G 11:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
municipal county[edit]
independent city[edit]
city county[edit]
gmina wiejska[edit]
Any other proposals?
rural commune[edit]
- Ausir 19:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- tsca ✉ 19:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- Sonitus 02:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- logologist|Talk 06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- KonradWallenrod 08:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- D T G 11:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- --SylwiaS | talk 15:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Anatopism 15:44, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Shaqspeare 07:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Mattergy 07:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
gmina miejska[edit]
urban commune[edit]
- tsca ✉ 19:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- Ausir 19:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- Sonitus 02:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- logologist|Talk 06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- KonradWallenrod 08:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- D T G 11:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- --SylwiaS | talk 15:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Anatopism 15:44, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Shaqspeare 07:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Mattergy 07:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
municipal commune[edit]
gmina miejsko-wiejska[edit]
urban-rural commune[edit]
- tsca ✉ 19:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- Ausir 19:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- Sonitus 02:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- logologist|Talk 06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- KonradWallenrod 08:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- D T G 11:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- --SylwiaS | talk 15:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Anatopism 15:44, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- 220.127.116.11 16:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- Mattergy 07:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
mixed commune[edit]
rural-municipial commune[edit]
Names of offices[edit]
Here, I believe votes for "wójt", "voit" and "vogt" should be counted together when counted against "commune chief". Same with "starosta", "staroste" and "starost" against "county chief" as it can be assumed that people who vote for one of them would prefer any of the other variants of the same word than a completely different one. Ausir 17:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
commune chief[edit]
- logologist|Talk 08:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- KonradWallenrod 08:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- --SylwiaS | talk 15:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Anatopism 15:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- 188.8.131.52 16:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- Mattergy 07:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
# logologist|Talk 06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Ausir 08:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:43, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- D T G 13:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC) (adviced by tepis, my votes were generally compatible with their choices)
- Halibutt 12:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC) though voigt seems also a fair choice
commune leader[edit]
county chief (see also: Halibutt's comment)[edit]
- logologist|Talk 08:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- KonradWallenrod 08:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- --SylwiaS | talk 15:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Anatopism 15:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Mattergy 07:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
# logologist|Talk 06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Ausir 00:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
staroste (see also: Logologist's comment)[edit]
- D T G 13:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC) (adviced by tepis, my votes were generally compatible with their choices)
- Halibutt 09:11, 8 March 2006 (UTC) though "starost" is also used at times
- --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
county foreman[edit]
county governor[edit]
- Ausir 19:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- Sonitus 02:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- D T G 13:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC) (and again cause of tepis, in addition it sound good comparing to my previous vote about voivodeships ;)
- Definitely. "Gubernator prowincji" is not "wojewoda".. Halibutt 09:12, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- Appleseed (Talk) 16:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- Dobromila 09:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
- --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
voivodeship/province governor[edit]
- logologist|Talk 06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC) "Province governor"
- KonradWallenrod 08:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- --SylwiaS | talk 15:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Anatopism 15:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC). Per Logologist.
- Mattergy 07:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
New template[edit]
I just created a new template, Subdivision term Polish (based on a similar one for Spanish-speaking countries) and put it in some articles to see what it looks like. Please take a look and say how you like it. Of course, it may be updated according to the agreements reached on this talk page. Kpalion 14:06, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
- Eee, what is gromada? I have heard it first time... Maybe you can add to historical kasztelania? D T G 22:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
- pl:Gromada (podział administracyjny). It's also historical, though. Ausir 07:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
County chief?[edit]
Who invented that name? I never saw it in use anywhere and it seems like a joke. Reminds me of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest... Halibutt 21:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, it's closer to "police chief," "Joint Chiefs of Staff, "Chief Financial Officer," or "Chief Administrative Officer." logologist|Talk 08:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- Well, but have you ever seen the word "chief" referred to the head of a Polish county or commune? I'd prefer to stick to options recommended by various existing sources. Ausir 08:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- Some sources give bad advice. logologist|Talk 09:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- I'm still opposed to inventing our own terms. Ausir 09:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, I've never seen "county chief" and "commune chief" in use. Let's stick to the various options already in use rather than invent new ones (WP:NOR). Ausir 22:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
"Staroste" looks like something written by an English-speaker who can't spell in any language. It reflects badly on both the English-speakers and the Poles. If the Polish word "starosta" is retained, then by all means at least spell it correctly! logologist|Talk 16:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- Well, it is recommended by the Polish Society of Economic, Legal and Court Translators (TEPIS). Ausir 16:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- You make my point exactly. logologist|Talk 17:20, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- I believe the tepis that they know what are they doing... Have you ever heard the term foreman in meaning starosta? D T G 13:12, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- No. "Foreman" is used in the senses of "one that has charge of a group of workers, as at a factory," or "the chairman and spokesman for a jury." I have never seen "foreman" applied to the chief officer of a county in any country. logologist|Talk 18:59, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Have you seen chief used for that, then? Ausir 22:10, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Województwo, wojewoda[edit]
The commonest English name for a national second-level administrative unit, corresponding among others to the Polish "województwo," is "province."
The Polish version of this word ("prowincja") was used somewhat differently in the pre-Partition Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, as a term designating each of the Commonwealth's three major constituent parts: Wielkopolska ("Greater Poland"), Małopolska ("Lesser Poland"), and Lithuania. Since Poland's resumption of independence at the end of World War I, however, "prowincja" has not been applied to any Polish political entity. Hence the English word "province" may be used, with no risk of confusion, for Poland's post-World War I województwa (the plural of "województwo").
Discussions of the pre-Partition Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth will apply the word "province" to Wielkopolska, Małopolska and Lithuania, and will use the Polish word "województwo" (preferably, in English-language texts, not the "Polish"-English hybrid word, "voivodship") to designate what today may in English be termed a "province."
During the Partitions period, "province" referred to certain "provinces" governed by the partitioning powers.
There is, in any case, no compelling reason to avoid using the English word "province" to designate Poland's present-day województwa.
A województwo ("province") is governed by a wojewoda, which may be rendered in English as "governor."
- logologist|Talk 06:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe term "Province" was used for Little and Greater Poland and Lithuania in the past in the Poland Kingdom. However if the województwo where I live would be named with the usage of term Province... would reflect me horrible association - I will always oppose using term Province with Silesia according to what is now Województwo Śląskie... Regards, D T G 13:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Official English names used in Polish Government[edit]
On this document (PDF [2]) published by Commission for Standardisation of Geographical Names Outside Poland (official standardization body) there are official translation of names of Polish administrative units.
Województwo = Voivodship (or province)
powiat = county (land counties and urban counties)
gmina = commune (rural communes, urban-rular communes, urban communes)
See at official map of Poland [3]
Aotearoa from Poland 21:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- Gush, have they ever been cooperating ? (TEPIS, CfSoGNOP) ;) And it seems to me quite freak county -> countries and cause of that I'll continue to support tepis voices - seem more professional :) D_T_G (PL) 21:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, they use "counties", Aotearoa made a mistake. Ausir 21:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Whatever the outcome of the above votes, if we use Polish terms, let's use Polish grammatical rules for making plurals instead of creating some terrible hybrids (so powiaty, not powiats, gminy, not gminas). Kpalion 13:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
- Disagree.' They're not "terrible hybrids". That's what is done with a word when it's borrowed into another language - it's usually inflected like other words in that language. When English words are borrowed into Polish, they also get Polish inflectional affixes. Ausir 15:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
- It may be true in Polish were awful hybrids like outsourcowanie are acceptable (at least by some), but is not necessarily true for English. Note that many common English words of foreign origin have retained their original plural forms (e.g. cacti, bacteria, plateaux, Inuit). Powiat or gmina are not even common English words borrowed from Polish, they're just Polish words which may be insterted into an English text. Therefore I believe Polish grammatical rules should apply for them. Kpalion 15:45, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
- Keeping original plurals happens sometimes (mostly with words borrowed from Latin), but it's still rather an exception than a rule. Well, "województwos" certainly looks a bit silly (but we're probably going to use voivod(e)ship), but "po(v/w)iats" and "gminas" don't feel too weird. Taw 13:25, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- May I point out that an accepted English plural of "zloty" is "zlotys", so there is precedent. Sonitus 02:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team cooperation[edit]
Hello. I'm a member of the Version 1.0 Editorial Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing articles using these criteria, and we are are asking for your help. As you are most aware of the issues surrounding your focus area, we are wondering if you could provide us with a list of the articles that fall within the scope of your WikiProject, and that are either featured, A-class, B-class, or Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Do you have any recommendations? If you do, please post your suggestions at the listing of all active Places WikiProjects, and if you have any questions, ask me in the Work Via WikiProjects talk page or directly in my talk page. Thanks a lot! Titoxd(?!? - help us) 18:37, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Expert opinion[edit]
I have received a commentary on the issues we are discussing here from Dr. Danuta Kierzkowska, President of Polish Society of Economic, Legal and Court Translators TEPIS (Polskie Towarzystwo Tłumaczy Przysięgłych i Specjalistycznych TEPIS[4]), as well as her perimission to post relevant parts of her email here. I will post the original Polish text here, and I'll translate it when I have more time (feel free to do so before me :>). I'd also like to thank Dr. Kierzkowska for her much needed expert contribution to our debate.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Temat dyskutowany w Wikipedii jest kontrowersyjny od wieków i nawet powołanie na poziomie międzyanarodowym lub narodowym, rządowym lub naukowym (PAN), specjalnej komisji, która podjęłaby decyzję na ten temat, nie rozwiązałoby problemu, bo ludzie i tak pozostaliby przy swoich poglądach, a decyzja mogłaby mieć przecież formę zaleceń, a nie przepisów prawa.
Cała sprawa jest o tyle mało ekscytująca dla tłumaczy, o ile zawsze było im wiadomo, że racje są jednakowo po obu stronach. Żadna decyzja nie zmieni faktu, że zapożyczenie jest jedną ze znanych i uznanych od wieków technik tłumaczeniowych, które jednak nie wyklucza i nigdy nie wykluczało stosowania w tłumaczeniu wersji przyjętych w języku docelowym. Jedna i druga technika ma swoje racje bytu, więc żadne tutaj rozstrzygnięcie nie będzie ostateczne.
Oczywiście dylemat ma specyficzny aspekt ambicjonalny natury międzynarodowej, ponieważ każe wybierać między "właścicielem" pojęcia w języku źródłowym a "właścicielem" języka docelowego, z których każdy chce być ważniejszy.
Jako więc "właściciele" języka polskiego, naśladując brytyjski imperalizm językowy, powinniśmy mówić o województwach i powiatach w Anglii, zaś uznając post-jałtańskich "właścicieli" byłych miast polskich (i bojąc się posądzenia o rewizjonizm), powinniśmy mówić o Lvivie i Vilniusie ... I tak dalej.
Skądinąd trend rządów (nie tylko) europejskich, aby "być sobą" i pozostawiać w oryginalnym brzmieniu Reichstag, Kneset, Dumę i Sejm wymownie wskazuje na tendencję w pewnym zakresie, i chociaż nie musi się to wszystkim podobać, to na ogół taką wolę się szanuje.
Natomiast co do propozycji głosowania to powiem tylko tyle, że na co dzień posługuję się zasadą: "Składu substancji chemicznej nie ustala się w drodze plebiscytu". A tam, gdzie nie do końca o czystą wiedzę chodzi, tylko o kolor lub styl - to trzeba po prostu coś wybrać i na coś się zdecydować.
Właściciel portalu (Wikipedia), jeżeli chce mieć u siebie porządek (a musi?), powinien przyjąć jedną z dwóch opcji i jej przestrzegać. Ponieważ wie, że zawsze w ten sposób narazi się którejś ze stron, to woli - być może całkiem świadomie - nie podejmować żadnej decyzji i pozostawić świat bez retuszu - pełen międzynarodowych dysonansów, które dają jednak prawdziwy obraz rzeczywistości. Albo ukuć jakąś formułę salomonową, która zadowoliłaby obie strony. Ale to jest ich problem.
Dr. Kierzkowska's above remarks on translation highlight a valid point: There are many ways to skin a cat. The approach a translator takes may vary, depending on his understanding of the process and purpose.
There is an entire spectrum of approaches to translation. At one extreme, paradoxically, is non-translation. The Christian and Muslim worlds long disapproved of translating, respectively, the Latin Vulgate Bible and the Qur'an. William Tyndale, who had ventured to translate the Bible into English, was in 1536 strangled and burned at the stake. Muslims the world over, Arabic- and non-Arabic-speaking, to this day recite the sacred words of the Qur'an in the original Arabic.
At the opposite end of the spectrum is 100% translation, right down to proper names of persons and geographic entities.
As a practical matter, translators generally use target-language expressions where adequate equivalents exist, while — when necessary — importing source-language expressions into the target language, thereby creating target-language neologisms that are either loanwords or calques.
In the matter of translating Polish geographic terms into English, there are several schools of thought. One is to retain, wholly or partly unchanged, source-language generic expressions ("powiat," "voivodship") while "translating" proper names (as "Silesia," "Mazovia," "Greater Poland," etc.). The converse approach is to render Polish generic terms by English equivalents ("county," "province") while retaining Polish proper names in their original noun forms ("Śląsk," "Mazowsze," "Wielkopolska").
The latter approach is the one I favor. It is my premise that, in principle, proper names should be used in the form in which they are used by their originators, with due consideration to the structural characteristics of the target language.
If "województwo" is rendered as "province," then in English-language histories of the pre-Partition Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Polish term "prowincja" (referring severally to Wielkopolska, Małopolska and Lithuania) could, to avoid any confusion, be rendered by another English word, perhaps "palatinate." (In Polish-language histories, of course, this would continue to be no problem, since the original Polish words, "województwo" and "prowincja," would remain in use as they are now.)
logologist|Talk 09:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
- Considering that some texts actually refer to Polish voivodships as 'palatinates' this would only add to the confusion. I will stay with my preference for 'voivode/voivodship'. They already have a Wikipedia article - so we cannot 'lock them back' and pretend they didn't exist.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
- I gave "palatinate," as a potential English equivalent for the 18th-century Polish "prowincyja," merely as an example. Actually, a better word might be "region": the "regions" of Wielkopolska, Małopolska and Lithuania. And if "region" is for some reason unavailable, then maybe there's still another word.
- The point is to free up "province" for use as the English equivalent for the Polish "województwo," so as not to have to use that ugly hybrid word, "voivod(e)ship." When even Polish governmental agencies often render "województwo" into English as "province," it seems a shame to needlessly hold the 21st century hostage to an obsolete Polish 18th-century usage ("prowincyja," which, by the way, was not all that often needed: it appears only once in the main text of the Polish Constitution of May 3, 1791). logologist|Talk 06:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
And again I happen to differ with my honourable colleague Logologist. We're not here to invent names, but we should also avoid confusion. If we are to translate Polish pre-partition province as palatinate and modern voivodship as province, then we're left with a complete mess. What's more is that there were also proper historical regions that could also be translated as provinces. Yet, Greater Poland and province of Greater Poland were different from each other and from Greater Poland voievodship.
So, in other words we could either follow the Polish way (which is pretty unambiguous as it calls these regions, provinces and voivodships, respectively) or invent some "English" way - for no apparent reason. If we were to apply your changes, the scheme would look like that:
|"Polish way"
Not the most logical way if you asked me. To add to the confusion, we also have other entities that could be translated as province if we wanted to translate all similar terms as such. Unitedstatesian states are also provinces, not to mention British counties, Russian oblasts and whatnot.
I also oppose the idea (pushed by my respected colleague) that the English names for the Polish historical regions (Greater Poland, Masovia, Lesser Poland and so on) are to be dropped and replaced with their Polish counterparts. I don't really see a reason behind that. Sure, such a solution might seem nice and pleasant-looking to a Pole, but I doubt any Briton looking for more info on the area around Poznań would look for "Wielkopolska", as this most surely means absolutely nothing to him. Greater Poland seems more logical. But of course, I'm not a native speaker and perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps most modern English speakers are perfectly familiar to Polish names of Polish regions. //Halibutt 00:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- Esteemed colleague Halibutt, you may have noticed that I've given up on "palatinate" as a potential English equivalent for the 18th-century Polish "prowincyja."
- Could you give some examples of the use of "region" in Polish political geography?
- Regarding your closing question: Few English-speakers (Wikipedians, of course, excepted) are familiar with more than the name of the country, "Poland," and its capital, and perhaps the continent these are found on. logologist|Talk 03:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
"Expert" Opinion?[edit]
This is the ENGLISH-language Wikipedia. English-speakers have, throughout history, had their own interpretations and pronunciations of countries, cities, towns, provinces etc., (i.e: Rome, instead of Roma, Warsaw instead of Warszawa, Brussels instead of Bruxelles, etc). It is surely laughable to cite a Pole as "expert opinion" on the naming issues when they have the reputation they do as fanatical nationalists whose history books read quite differently to everyone elses. Independent opinions should be sought from English-speakers for the English-language Wikipedia. English predominates in the world today. 220.127.116.11 18:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- While the earlier statements are true (arrogant English speakers have developed their own), the latter sentiment is not -- English does not predominate. It is my understanding that there are far more Chinese speakers than English.


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I am running a WPML powered website and I am using your powerful plugin to generate a customized list of posts. However with the current version, it seems not possible to translate some texts, specifically the "Link Text" for category archive links. I think the same happens also for the "More text" used for posts.
Would it be possible to let those strings be WPML-ready, or at least provide some filter hooks to interact with them somehow?
I saw there's a hook called
gfwa_category_more but it's not enough, since there's no way to dinamically alter the current widget instance to show the translated text.
Thank you.