text:
Template talk:Infobox Christian leader/Archive 1
|WikiProject Christianity
|(Rated Template-class)
|Alexander VIII
|Papacy began
|October 6, 1689
|Papacy ended
|February 1, 1691
|Innocent XI
|Innocent XII
|Personal details
|Birth name
|Pietro Vito Ottoboni
|April 22, 1610
|February 1, 1691
|Other popes named Alexander
- 1 Infobox changes
- 2 Latin name
- 3 Design
- 4 Ed g2s changes
- 5 More simple design?
- 6 Vote on which design to use
- 7 Further comment
- 8 English name?
- 9 Religious Leaders
- 10 Final Version
- 11 Original basis of Gerald's new design
- 12 F Word in Edit History
- 13 dead=dead requirement
- 14 Protected
- 15 Term start
- 16 The return of the toccolours
- 17 Uglybox
- 18 3RR Warning
- 19 Imposing a new Style
- 20 Other Popes named XXX
- 21 Consecration Date
- 22 Feast Day
- 23 Captions to the images
- 24 New Design
- 25 Problem with May 29 revision
- 26 Birth name
Infobox changes[edit]
Well, Gerald, okay, but do you mind setting out your reasons for distinguishing the popes from just about every other type of person in Wikipedia? I'm not saying you shouldn't, just that I think you should give reasons so that interested editors can see where you are going with it.Grace Note 04:53, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Gerald was just replacing older already existing summary boxes started by others on various articles on the popes with a sleeker, cleaner design. Click for an archived old version. Gerald's also making sure all the popes get the infoboxes instead of only a scattered handful, like there was before.
- Also, there are several of us who don't think that it's "distinguishing" the popes in any special way when the Presidents of the United States, Presidents of the Philippines and several other such articles use the same infobox but use different designs. There's precedence for these boxes; that's why there hasn't been opposition to it for the longest time. --James Easton 05:09, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Okay, James. I'm not having a go at Gerald or his work. The pope articles should all look the same, I agree. However, I have George W. Bush's page in another tab and his infobox is not headed with "President of the United States", nor is his name given in Latin. Nor does his father's, so that aspect of it still requires explanation.
- And James, I should point out that the heading is new and does not have a precedent, which is why I'm discussing it with you here. There has been no opposition to it because it's new.Grace Note 05:39, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I've removed the offending text from the template for now.
- Then you'll probably want to look over what other editors did with the Presidents of the Philippines. Examples: Ferdinand Marcos, Fidel V. Ramos, et al. --James Easton 05:52, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I think those should be changed too but I don't really have the time. Unless the editors in question propose to change all articles on all heads of state to match, they really shouldn't do it in their pet areas. It doesn't add anything anyway, I reckon. What do you think?Grace Note 06:25, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Latin name[edit]
I don't pretty much care whether or not Latin is used or the office the person held was prominently displayed at the header of the infobox. You asked what my intentions were. Just to make my intentions clear with the new infobox, (1) I just wanted to make the infobox look nicer than it was and (2) add it to all the papal articles for consistency. The use of Latin was discussed at length by other Wikipedia editors somewhere else, I'm not sure where. You might want to discuss that decision with them.
I'm pretty much opposed to the use of Latin because it's sometimes redundant for most of the popes (i.e., English "Pope Pius XII" is Latin "Pius PP. XII"). I don't see the point of using both but it was already on the old infoboxes and that's why I added it originally to this new infobox. Eleassar777 noted that there was indeed a compromise to use it. All in all I pretty much don't care.
As a Wikipedia administrator, my only concern is that articles are aesthetically pleasing, have the basic information presented and whatever other information added is factually correct. I pretty much let concensus dictate design of infoboxes and photo layout. If they have concensus, I don't care. --Gerald Farinas 15:08, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- That's fine. I feel exactly the same. Thanks for explaining. Grace Note 16:48, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand, though, Grace. Just because one box doesn't have a type of information doesn't mean that all should have it. I feel that the titles should stay on the top of the infoboxes. Now, we can start with the pope, and then move on to the other heads of state. We can't change them all at once. Leave the pope/president boxes as they were. Bratschetalk random 22:48, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
- The problem is that it's a major change. I personally don't like it. I think it is a little bit silly, frankly. The page has the name of the person and the box itself says who the person is. The bottom line is that you have not extended it to other presidents etc., and I don't imagine you actually will either. It would be an enormous undertaking and you're not likely to get much help because you simply haven't made any good case for it. Still, I don't care enough about it to change it again.Grace Note 07:01, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- But do keep talking. Convince me it's a good idea and I'll help do it! Sorry, I sounded a bit harsh and I didn't mean to.Grace Note 01:01, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I think it's a good idea in cases where the title of the person is not in the article heading. For example, some person who didn't know who George Bush was, and just wanted his birthdates: He accesses the article, gets the basic/relevant information, and then notices that he was a president. Ok, so maybe that's not the best example, but you get the point.
- Yes, I do but the first line says that or should. We should not necessarily treat our readers like idiots.Grace Note 02:46, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The Latin name is the official name of the Pope, not the English. You wouldn't translate a spanish name like José into John, would you? For that reason, the Latin should stay. Also, the Latin name was a previous agreement as Eleassar777 noted before. Bratschetalk random 01:31, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
- Bratsche, we don't use "official names". How mad! Some places and people have the most astonishing "official names" (God forbid we should use the official name of Bangkok in a photo caption!), but what we use is the most commonly used name in English. In fact, we *do* translate names into English. Very much so! I think you should consult the page on naming conventions to help you understand how names are treated. We call Muenchen Munich, Roma Rome and we use transliterated names for characters such as the Buddha and Confucius (a Latin name, not even his Chinese name transliterated!)The Pope is commonly known in English by his English name. It's pure affectation to use the Latin name. We should not do it. Surely you are not suggesting that you will head all photos of heads of state with their full titles? The Queen's would run for half a page! Now, I'm not an edit warrior or anything like that, Bratsche, so I'm going to leave it at that. You can change the template back to reflect our policy or leave it as it is, as you choose.Grace Note 02:46, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
For around the last 25 popes, the entire code is used, but starting at Pope Gregory XV I used the template including the latin name (does not show up, but in case you change your mind) could someone just check if everything is ok? --Astrowob 04:41, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I added the box for about 150 years more than the 250 years already there, and I intend to continue tommorrow if everything is ok with the template (much much faster than using the whole code) ;p --Astrowob 04:55, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What about including the Latin name in the text, after the English name? --Eleassar777 10:13, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I can't see any reason not to, if it is an official title. It should not be bold though, I think.Grace Note 14:15, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have already done it a few hours ago. However, I have had time to do this only for J.P. I and J.P. II --Eleassar777 21:06, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ed g2s changes[edit]
Changes made to the template by User:Ed g2s kinda whacked out the pope articles. They're not all uniform anymore. Could someone fix them, or revert the change until someone goes through all the articles to fix it? --James Easton 01:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Could you be a bit more specific than "whacked out", they look pretty uniform to me. ed g2s • talk 01:43, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I like this box, but it should include the position prior to being elected pope. For instance, it should say that JP2 was archbishop of Krakow, JP1 archbishop of Venice, etc. Just my $0.02. 01:29, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
More simple design?[edit]
Hey, let's not make big changes without discussing them, especially when someone has put a lot of work in. Let's talk about whether there should be a simpler or more ornate box and what's involved in fixing articles that use the template. I've reverted the template just for now but let's say ed2gs' template is on the table for discussion, yes? Grace Note 03:58, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Gerald's version might be a touch ornate, but that's not too bad for a position that used to be crowned with a triple tiara. Personally, I'd vote for the old version, but I'm open to Ed's comments. Bratschetalk random 04:05, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
- I appreciate the work you've put in, but Wikipedia articles are not the place for people to express their CSS creativity. The point of having a stylesheet is to keep page appearences consistent. The system of someone picking a style at random because they created the box is going to lead to a lot of inconsistency within the project. From what I can tell there was no in-depth discussion of how a pope infobox should look before you created it. I correct infoboxes to the in-house styling all the time, it's just routine maintenance. ed g2s • talk 13:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- P.S. Bear in mind: Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Don.27t_get_fancy. ed g2s • talk 13:23, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I actually think it's rather elegant and not too fancy. TheCoffee
- I agree, but it still needs to use to stylesheet, not inline custom styles. A user should be able to come along and edit his monobook.css to make, for example, all the infoboxes green, or all bold text italic. The more we use inline style, the less this is possible - it's simply a case of separating appearance from semantics. ed g2s • talk 18:07, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Then please post explicit instructions for Gerald, so that he knows where to go to make changes and what process you think he ought to follow to make them. Simply reverting his work is not helpful but showing him the way you think is best would be. Grace Note 22:35, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- In my opinion, the current design is a bit ugly; it's also not at all uniform with the vast majority of other infoboxes. I was in the process of changing it (as ed_g2s said, as a matter of routine maintenance) when I noticed this discussion, and since this sort of decision requires site-wide consensus, I think I'll revert to the default version. If you'd like to propose a change in the appearance of infoboxes, you might suggest it at Wikipedia talk:Infobox, and if you have community support, the toccolours class can be edited accordingly. — Dan | Talk 18:24, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I agree, current design is ugly, Gerald's is very clean and elegant, I think it's a great change and should be implemented. --Wgfinley 13:25, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What happened to Gerald's design? It was a masterpiece of cool, crisp, visually exciting design. Instead it was replaced by a third rate mediocre design. So what if the 'new' version is closer to the original template? It is mediocre and unattractive. We should be using Gerald's as the basis for all the templates. It is a top class design years ahead of the dreary replacement. And there appears to be a clear consensus here that Gerald's design, not its hideous replacement, should be the one to use. Lets openly decide here on which one we want.
- This really isn't the page on which to discuss site wide stylesheet changes. As I've already pointed out, there is no justification for Infobox pope to look completely different from every other infobox on Wikipedia, so if you really love Gerald's design that much, take it to the Infobox or monobook discussion pages. ed g2s • talk 00:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Where is it stated they all have to be the same?? The proper place to discuss a template is on its talk page, not some other page for a general group of templates. Secondly, there are deviations in layout and design for various templates {{battlebox}} is one that comes to mind as one that has some different formatting. Again, I think this change is subtle, clean, and attractive, I say go with it. --Wgfinley 07:45, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Vote on which design to use[edit]
Gerald's design, influenced TheCoffee's work elsewhere[edit]
- FearÉIREANN 22:35, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Bratschetalk random 22:42, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
- Grace Note 23:14, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)Totally support Gerald's design. I don't see any sign that we use infoboxes particularly widely. Most leaders don't have one. The ones that do have different boxes. I say that if people want to standardise it, they should make Gerald's the standard and spend their days implementing it rather than trying to prevent editors from innovating and trying to improve the encyclopaedia.Grace Note 23:14, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Infoboxes are used on tens of thousands of pages (The succession infoboxes are used on >5000 (I didn't want the server to keep counting) articles alone). They have already been standardised in the stylesheet. If you want toccolours changed to Gerald's design go and lobby for it in the relevant places. ed g2s • talk 00:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- This is a relevant place. Why don't you stop barking at editors who are working in good faith and add something constructive? It's perfectly okay to lobby here and then lobby elsewhere.Grace Note 14:41, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- It really isn't the relevant place. If you though all links should be red, you wouldn't override the colours, so that is out of style with the rest of the project, then take it to the monobook.css talk, you should go straight there. If all the infoboxes are using the same class, then we change the styling on to whatever design the community wants by making just one edit. The editors of papal pages does not reflect the opinion of the entire community, so this vote is in the wrong place. ed g2s • talk 16:24, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- This is a relevant place. Why don't you stop barking at editors who are working in good faith and add something constructive? It's perfectly okay to lobby here and then lobby elsewhere.Grace Note 14:41, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Infoboxes are used on tens of thousands of pages (The succession infoboxes are used on >5000 (I didn't want the server to keep counting) articles alone). They have already been standardised in the stylesheet. If you want toccolours changed to Gerald's design go and lobby for it in the relevant places. ed g2s • talk 00:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Arwel 23:26, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Wgfinley 23:56, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) P.S. - any way you can add a spot for an (optional) image caption? (to credit a photo or painting if needed)
- TheCoffee 04:00, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC). We've been calling it Gerald's design, but I should note that it actually seems to have been inspired by Template:Infobox Philippine president (see Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo) that I made, which was based on Template:Infobox Philippine province (see Benguet) made by Seav which has been in use on Philippine province articles in one form or another since 2003.
- Astrowob 14:36, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) I did prefer Gerald's design, the one currently in place is "OK", but nothing more, Gerald's one was much better looking and please FearÉIREANN could you explain to me in my talk page why you accuse me of changing it to the current form when the only thing I did was to add the infobox to some pope pages?????
- My error. I apologise unreservedly. I have also done so on your page. FearÉIREANN 22:18, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- [Stated reason deleted as a personal attack] - UtherSRG 03:44, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
ed_g2s version[edit]
- Don't know if I'm too late here... — Dan | Talk 01:25, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Or if I'm too late... ugen64 01:51, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Votes are a waste of time and inherently foolish[edit]
- We don't vote on everything. Indeed, except in extremely exceptional (aha! ;-)) circumstances, we shouldn't be voting ever. This is a mind-numbingly stupid vote to have, given that overall design decisions are, umm, not to be made on template pages. James F. (talk) 09:42, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Further comment[edit]
"toccolours" class
Here's a typical page for a country (Australia), full of infoboxes:
Notice how the use of a stylesheet makes everything fit together nicely. Discussion here should relate to the information contained within the box, not if we should use some random CSS on it because "it looks pretty". ed g2s • talk 20:14, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- So? And how patronising is it to declare that you are giving everyone here a "class"! We will decide here what template to use on papal pages. FearÉIREANN 22:18, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't quite see your point about "class" - it is a technical term used in relation to the stylesheet, used to group like-styled objects together. I also don't understand why you think this template is so special that it should different from every other template in the project. As much as the editors of a given page may not like it, Wikipedia articles have to conform to the style of the rest of the project. What if the editors of Star Trek wanted to change the page background to black, and their text colour to white (no offence to trekkies intended)? ed g2s • talk 00:01, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Hey, good idea. I'll suggest the idea over at the Star Trek page. Maybe we'll go for green for all the Irish pages. BTW regarding conforming to style - that verdana font you use looks hideous on my screen and throws the text around it out. Any chance, in the interests of conformity, that you'd adapt the font everyone else uses? :-) FearÉIREANN 02:20, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Please don't trivialise this discussion, it isn't very helpful - unless you seriously think we should make Irish pages green. ed g2s • talk 14:05, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Oh lighten up, Ed. You sound like a dog that has just swallowed a wasp! Its called sarcasm, or in Hiberno-English taking the piss. Or do we have do design a template do convey the concept to you. :p (A joke, by the way). FearÉIREANN 22:27, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC) (But seriously, could you change your font, or at least make it a bit smaller!)
- I am well aware that you were "taking the piss", but I would suggest you refrain from it in the future, as it's quite poor Wikiquette. ed g2s • talk 23:32, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Personal abuse is against Wikiquette. Trying to point out the illogicality of a stance though tongue-in-cheek sarcasm is normal discourse on wikipedia. But you still haven't given a credible argument defending your stance. The queue agreeing with you has not exactly been long, has it? Last time I checked 8 people voted for Gerald's version against yours; none voted for your recommendation. Or is pointing that fact against wikiquette too? :p FearÉIREANN 23:50, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should read Wikipedia:Wikiquette ("Be polite", "Be civil"). I also don't see how you pointed out any illogicality in my argument, and unless you haven't been reading what I've said, I can't see how my argument isn't "credible". It is fairly simple: The styling of infoboxes should match the styling of everything else. If you lookup the thumbnail design competition on meta, you'll find that the community agreed on that. ed g2s • talk 00:59, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I am well aware that you were "taking the piss", but I would suggest you refrain from it in the future, as it's quite poor Wikiquette. ed g2s • talk 23:32, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Oh lighten up, Ed. You sound like a dog that has just swallowed a wasp! Its called sarcasm, or in Hiberno-English taking the piss. Or do we have do design a template do convey the concept to you. :p (A joke, by the way). FearÉIREANN 22:27, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC) (But seriously, could you change your font, or at least make it a bit smaller!)
- Please don't trivialise this discussion, it isn't very helpful - unless you seriously think we should make Irish pages green. ed g2s • talk 14:05, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Hey, good idea. I'll suggest the idea over at the Star Trek page. Maybe we'll go for green for all the Irish pages. BTW regarding conforming to style - that verdana font you use looks hideous on my screen and throws the text around it out. Any chance, in the interests of conformity, that you'd adapt the font everyone else uses? :-) FearÉIREANN 02:20, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't quite see your point about "class" - it is a technical term used in relation to the stylesheet, used to group like-styled objects together. I also don't understand why you think this template is so special that it should different from every other template in the project. As much as the editors of a given page may not like it, Wikipedia articles have to conform to the style of the rest of the project. What if the editors of Star Trek wanted to change the page background to black, and their text colour to white (no offence to trekkies intended)? ed g2s • talk 00:01, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- And just to note, I have posted a message at the infobox talk page. As of now, no replies. Also, a reminder to everyone here to be charitable in their disscussion. Thanks. Bratschetalk random 23:04, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
Don't let User:Ed g2s pressure you into using toccolours. Each infobox is unique. There is no concensus as to whether toccolours should be used or if as the standard for all infoboxes. Just take a look on Wikipedia:Infobox and you'll see there is a large range of infobox styles and that the vast majority do not use toccolours. He tried to bully us on WP:TOL and failed. - UtherSRG 03:41, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
- You are being extremely unhelpful. Standardisation towards the skin's CSS has been repeatedly affirmed on thousands of pages. There is clear consensus for using a single standard look, and working towards this is what Ed is suggesting. If you dislike the specifics of the look, you can complain on MediaWiki talk:Monobook.css.
- Furthermore, your comments have been at times quite astoundingly immature, which has troubled me.
- James F. (talk) 09:37, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- "Us" is an intersting word to use for yourself. Most of the new infoboxes use "toccolours" and the old ones are slowly being converted over, as Dan said, "as a matter of routine maintenance". ed g2s • talk 09:36, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Another point with respect to "the vast majority (of infoboxes) do not use toccolours" is that the page (Wikipedia:Infobox) doesn't use the actual templates, but some old version. If you view the source you'll see they're all put in in WikiTax. Many of those do use toccolours now. ed g2s • talk 11:13, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
English name?[edit]
Why is the English name listed in the infobox. It is traditional for wikipedia to use the local name of a leader or country in an infobox. If there are no objections, I will change them all. -- Earl Andrew - talk 18:13, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Wait, stop. Read the entire sections above entitled Design and Latin Name. We have already covered this issues, and according to Wikipedia naming conventions, we don't use the official names. Bratschetalk random 20:30, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
- I mean for the template. The actual convention for templates is not to use the English name. That's why I have this problem. I am not suggesting the article should be moved. -- Earl Andrew - talk 22:41, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Can you point us to this convention? I think we generally use the name of the article, with the addition of diacritics where these could not be displayed in the title. We don't by any means use official names for people and I hope we don't start. Some monarchs have extremely long official titles and, I presume, it's intended to add infoboxes to all of them too, in the course of time. How on earth would it aid the reader to head the infobox with a name that is entirely unfamiliar? If you absolutely had to, you could put the official name in the template between Name and Papacy began, but I'm not sure what you'd be adding. You would, I think, in fairness, need to commit yourself to going through the previous popes and adding in their Latin names.Grace Note 01:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I wouldn't mind at all in changing them. Now, if you look at any article on a country you will see that the local name is used in the header of the template. Now, I assumed this is the same for people, and I made some templates maybe a year ago using this format. Here is a good example of what I found: Robert Kocharyan. As you can see, his local name was used in the template in addition to his English name. Thanks, -- Earl Andrew - talk 03:38, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well, local name is a bit of a stretch. Italian is generally spoken in the Vatican City and its semi-official newspaper is printed in Italian. Yes, okay, it's right for Kocharyan, but very few heads of state use this infobox, Earl Andrew: compare Kim Dae-jung and Kim Jong-il, or Queen Elizabeth II. Actually, do look at QEII in particular. My reason for objecting to heading the box with the Latin name is twofold: first, that it really stands out and that's confusing for the reader, so you'd have to give both -- that's a lot of heading for what seems to be a picture (I have to scroll down to see that it's actually a box); second, people will fight over what name we should actually use. For QEII, it's a question of do you include every title she holds or do you just put QEII, do you give her family name, blah blah? And what happens when you extend it to princes, dukes and the like? Do you see?Grace Note 03:56, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The confusing argument falls, because every country uses it. Secondly, since Latin is the official language of the Vatican, it would obviously be in latin. One respected website, rulers.org doesnt even use the English name. We're not going for long names, here we are going for the local name. -- Earl Andrew - talk 04:32, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well, local name is a bit of a stretch. Italian is generally spoken in the Vatican City and its semi-official newspaper is printed in Italian. Yes, okay, it's right for Kocharyan, but very few heads of state use this infobox, Earl Andrew: compare Kim Dae-jung and Kim Jong-il, or Queen Elizabeth II. Actually, do look at QEII in particular. My reason for objecting to heading the box with the Latin name is twofold: first, that it really stands out and that's confusing for the reader, so you'd have to give both -- that's a lot of heading for what seems to be a picture (I have to scroll down to see that it's actually a box); second, people will fight over what name we should actually use. For QEII, it's a question of do you include every title she holds or do you just put QEII, do you give her family name, blah blah? And what happens when you extend it to princes, dukes and the like? Do you see?Grace Note 03:56, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I wouldn't mind at all in changing them. Now, if you look at any article on a country you will see that the local name is used in the header of the template. Now, I assumed this is the same for people, and I made some templates maybe a year ago using this format. Here is a good example of what I found: Robert Kocharyan. As you can see, his local name was used in the template in addition to his English name. Thanks, -- Earl Andrew - talk 03:38, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Can you point us to this convention? I think we generally use the name of the article, with the addition of diacritics where these could not be displayed in the title. We don't by any means use official names for people and I hope we don't start. Some monarchs have extremely long official titles and, I presume, it's intended to add infoboxes to all of them too, in the course of time. How on earth would it aid the reader to head the infobox with a name that is entirely unfamiliar? If you absolutely had to, you could put the official name in the template between Name and Papacy began, but I'm not sure what you'd be adding. You would, I think, in fairness, need to commit yourself to going through the previous popes and adding in their Latin names.Grace Note 01:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I mean for the template. The actual convention for templates is not to use the English name. That's why I have this problem. I am not suggesting the article should be moved. -- Earl Andrew - talk 22:41, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I explained why it is not the "local" name. I explained why including the "official" name would be a problem. I don't see any value in simply repeating over and over that you're wrong. You're welcome to change the template as you see fit and add names in any language you like to the pages on the popes, I won't revert them or oppose you in doing so, but you still will be wrong on this issue.Grace Note 04:44, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- How am I wrong? Perhaps I am not defining my terms properly. Are you denying that Latin is not the official language of the Vatican? It only makes sense that his latin name be used in the template, because it is his universal name, as well as the official language of the country he reigns over. I am not wrong, as many other Leaders have similar templates. There is no wrong or write answer. I'd appreciate if you did not resort in name calling. -- Earl Andrew - talk 04:54, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Steady on. I haven't called you names. You simply didn't address the points I made and I don't want to go over and over and over it. I said you can do what you want but I want you to know that I think it is the wrong thing to do. No names in there. Yes, Latin is the official language of the Vatican. How is that even germane to the points that I made? It doesn't make the name an "official" name. I explained how it created a can of worms to start suggesting we use "official names". Latin is not the "local" language of the Vatican City. No one speaks it. They speak Italian. The Pope speaks Italian, not Latin. No one addresses the pope in that way. It is not either his "universal name". He is not called by it in other languages either! French newspapers do not call him Benedictus. Why would they?
Did you know English bishops also sign in Latin? They are also "officially" named in Latin. If they have infoboxes, will you insist they are all titled in Latin?
Many leaders do not have the same template, you know. It would probably be a very profitable use of our time to make sure they all do. Some that do, eg Indira Gandhi, do not give the name in all the official languages of the country. It's not that I'm not taking your point, Earl Andrew, it's just that I don't think it is justifiable to put the popes in Latin when they are, in fact, virtually never called that in English.
Look, I'd rather go about the business of putting other leaders into infoboxes to match than to argue any more about this. You can do what you want with the names. I simply suggested reasons for not doing it. Grace Note 05:25, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Religious Leaders[edit]
I have proposed a new Infobox style at the Infobox standards page. Please comment there so we can adopt this simple yet elegant design. Trödel|talk 20:29, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There have been few comments - and no objections - so I proposed a color scheme, and think that going forward with the improved infobox as proposed above should go forward if there are no objections by 27 April. I picked the color:
By using colorzilla to pick a color off http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm
- What do you say to changing it to the yellow from the vatican flag (#FFE700)?
- JDG 00:12, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Final Version[edit]
Per the vote taken here (7-0 in favor of the "Gerald" version), the lack of further comments, and the discussion on infobox talk, I have reverted back to the above version, and changed the heading color to the one chosen on WP:Infobox. Bratschetalk random 21:55, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)
I fully approve. Good move. FearÉIREANN 23:17, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As do I. --Wgfinley 23:23, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well, I didn't want this to linger in vote/consensus limbo forever, as some votes do. Bratschetalk random 23:27, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)
The papal pages look superb with the new box. I've just been in a few making some changes to a couple of papal pages and was struck by how good they look visually. Wikipedia really has a nice design throughout. Not alone do we have some articles of superb quality, but they are brilliantly laid out. I'm proud to be associated with such a project. FearÉIREANN 23:46, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I agree, it looks brilliant in use, JPII is the first one that comes to mind. It's all about a nice clean useful layout and not something that is cobbled together like the old one was, a little bit of style. Personally, I can't believe that someone like me, who comes from a long line of Orange Irish would be this concerned with the Pope infobox! :P --Wgfinley 23:50, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I strongly disapprove of the horrible template pushed by Bratsche. —Cantus…☎ 00:16, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
Bratsche is not pushing any template. He is only implementing a vote of users. As to why we should not use the so-called standard stylesheet. The answer is simple. It is crap. FearÉIREANN 00:40, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I tried adding class="toccolours" to the template in different ways to see if there could be some kind of compromise - and I was surprised at how aweful it looked. I then realize that this is the class for the toccolors - which I have not liked anyway. I also don't understand why aesthetics i.e. "we think it's prettier" is not a valid argument for stylesheets - not all stylesheets at Wikipedia:Infobox use the toccolors style and I don't think we should here - I am going to change my skin and see if it looks substantially different with different skins. Trödel|talk 01:12, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- More info - the toccolours style does not match with other skins where the table of contents is color #F7F8FF (basically a blue gray) - and the regular gray (#F9F9F9) doesn't match very well it is almost the same color but just looks off. So I am convinced that we should stay without using toccolours as it is 1) not aesthetically pleasing, and 2) does not match skins other than Monobook. (An interesting aside is that browsers with 256 colors will render the background white (#FFFFF) - the same as in the new infobox.) Additionally the fonts in the new infobox are better for communicating the text Trödel|talk 01:30, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I always wondered why things looked so ugly in some skins. That would explain it. I think the arguments for using toccolours are dying by the minute. FearÉIREANN 01:35, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
BTW my flatmate just came in while I was in the Pope Pius IX page. I asked him for him impression. (He is a graphic designer.) He said that
- the page was very well laid out;
- the infobox looked very professional and clean. (He wondered if the person who designed it works in design professionally. He said that if they didn't, they should.) FearÉIREANN 01:38, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Stop the fighting. I didn't think this would create such a mess. While I like this box, I'm not trying to push it forward without consensus. My reasoning for rv'ing back to the "Gerald" design was thus:
- All of the votes on this page were in favor of such as move.
- No further comments were being made on this page.
- No user had commented on my post on Wikipedia talk:Infobox, first created a week ago.
- No user had objected to Trödel's post on the above page, made just under a week ago.
- No one had objected to the template for all religious leaders being added to the main Infobox page.
If this is really that bad, then let's talk about changing toccolors, let's talk about putting toccolors on the page. I think that is the only objection of the content. Please discuss this civily, too. Thanks. Bratschetalk random 12:13, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
Original basis of Gerald's new design[edit]
I was alerted to this discussion regarding the new design of the popes' infoboxes. I will admit that the design was originally mine (at least the header, the left border and the horizontal rule separating the images from the infobox facts). See the original usage way back in 2003 here.
I designed it because I really, really find the country infoboxes too ugly. I'm not a professional graphic designer (just an amateur), and decided to "improve" the country infoboxes, first with my country's article. At first I was disturbed by the fact that I'm using inline styles to coerce the look I wanted. But I decided that eventually Templates will be implemented which should mitigate the cons somewhat.
So when Templates were implemented, I then took my proposed design and made it into a template for the articles on my country's provinces. TheCoffee then took the design and made it into a template for the articles on my country's presidents, but with an additional table. Apparently, Gerald then decided to use the same design on the pope's infoboxes.
Anyway, that's mostly the whole story. If you're taking me to task for not following the styles of the other infoboxes, just take a look at all the infoboxes in existence. There is no common style or color scheme at all (unless you consider tables with borders on, a common style). I approve of the new look, although I'm biased, of course :-) --seav 15:47, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks for the background - I think it is best to continue to conclude this discussion over at the MediaWiki talk:Monobook.css and Wikipedia:Infobox. Thank you for creating a very attractive (and not fancy) infobox for use with people. Hopefully we can get a more attractive style implemented there - in the mean time we should continue with this attractive solution. Trödel|talk 16:02, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
F Word in Edit History[edit]
I couldn't help but notice a user scattered the F-Word through the edit summaries in the article history. Can we get this removed? That was clearly uncalled for. -Husnock 08:04, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
- Not unless you implement a word filter in Wikipedia, which will be completely rejected. —Cantus…☎ 19:07, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
dead=dead requirement[edit]
This is silly. There is only one living pope. To make this painful requirement for all the other pages (which incidentaly adds extra processing to each render), is silly. This template will work find for all popes except one, so let's just handle that one as an exception and move forward. This was needlessly complex. -- Netoholic @ 02:34, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
- Is there any way to keep the current set up, and just add a "not dead yet" tag onto Benedict's page? Bratschetalk random 03:11, May 12, 2005 (UTC)
- This is obviously a waste of time for this particular template, and I warned the user who was pushing for it to just a different template for this particular living pope, but he never listened. —Cantus…☎ 05:22, May 12, 2005 (UTC)
- We don't need to use a template to cover one pope and we shouldn't worry too much if the formatting drifts. Heck, I'd even support an intentionally different format altogether. -- Netoholic @ 16:33, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
Is there a definative answer as to how much more resources this takes with the dead "subtemplate"? It it isn't a big hit - it would be nice to keep it for consisetency. From what I understand (and IAMNAP) the use of "inclusion pages" require the page to be rebuilt for the squids each time the template is changed but once the page is built there would be no extra work in serving that page, only when the page changs - is that right? Trödel|talk 18:51, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, it really isn't a server drain, and the whole point of having a template is to keep them consistent, it also looks less confusing in the page source. ed g2s • talk 02:47, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
- I agree, keep it. This server business is silly: clearly, utility should trump any worries about minor server drain. — Dan | Talk 02:54, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
- I also agree, having a "death date" section on Pope Benedict's page looks kind of odd, considering he's not dead. I noticed that this is found on the president infobox, and several others, too. Bratschetalk random 02:57, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, there is a server drain, like there is with many things, but in particular with regards to templates because any change expires the caches expires the page caches, and they must be rebuilt. During that time, extra database calls must be made for each rebuild to both the template and any sub-templates. It is best to find a simple solution (in this case, use one template for all the deceased popes, and something different for the one single living one). See Wikipedia:Avoid using meta-templates for a technical description provided by the project's main database developer, User:Jamesday. -- Netoholic @ 05:23, 2005 May 13 (UTC)
- Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but from what I just read on Wikipedia:Avoid using meta-templates, the concern is the use of a template the is inserted into multiple template. e.g. Template A has special formatting to keep all infoboxes in place and is inserted at the front of 30 Infoboxe templates. Now if Template A is "touched there is a cascading effect of some type that causes alot of pages to be marked as "touched" and the delay is significant. However, the dead template is not a meta template but will cause 1 extra database call and page load everytime a change is made - that doesn't seem like too much of a drain. Am I missing something? Trödel|talk 15:23, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
To curtail further edit-warring until a decision is reached, I've protected this template. Since I don't want to put the notice on the template itself: {{protected}} — Dan | Talk 21:26, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Term start[edit]
Apparently, the date given for the "term start" is the date a pope was elected. How about adding also the date of a pope's enthronement? The table at [1] might help... Lupo 07:18, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is important because an user from Philippines was changed the election dates to the enthronement dates. Maybe enthronement dates will be adding too. There is a disturbance about these dates because about before 795 year a pontificate began in the consecration day (after the confirmation by Emperor of Byzantine, his Exarch or the Frankish King), but later these rules changed and it has been election day.Kask 16:47, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
The return of the toccolours[edit]
Please read discussion above - going to a toccolours (or a toccolours derivative) style could not reach concensus and the current style for this template is elegant, fits within the overall scheme, and was supported by a most wikipedians. Therefore it should remain. Anon:184.108.40.206 10:33, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
- This is the infobox class, for infoboxes. It's side-wide implementation will show the consensus to use it. You can resist the changes if you want, but the argument for this infobox to be different to the rest, when all the rest are using the infobox class, will start to wear thin. ed g2s • talk 22:48, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- I can see you are in this fight that "everything in Wikipedia must be as ugly as the table of contents" for the long haul - and unfortunately, most editors are not - so I applaud any progress you have made.
- For newcomers the design of this infobox includes lines that match the lines of the standard style - they are similar width and color - the open nature of the box on the top, bottom and right, is not that unusual and concensus was reached to leave it open. I agree with the other anon 126.96.36.199 02:59, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
- Uh, anon, did you actually bother to read the class we are using before reverting?! We aren't using toccolors! We are using an infobox class. Sheesh. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:29, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, I can read plenty well. This derived style (from toccolors) is fine for infoboxes in general - and quite frankly more attractive than toccolors imho); however, the users of this infobox agreed that they would leave off the lines on the top bottom and left. Additionally, this infobox style is not substantial different and has similar design elements - so there is no need to change it as this infobox looks fine next to the new ones. 126.96.36.199 00:54, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
- P.S. having one the left border (alone) with a grey border is not elegant. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:33, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
- And no comment. Reverting - again! - Ta bu shi da yu 23:39, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
You have been reported for breaching the 3RR
and for abusing your admin powers on this page. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 00:40, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
I can't be sure if the page was protected when Ta reverted it. For some reason tonight my screen is showing some unprotected pages as protected (and doing other weird things, like showing an entire page with strike throughs!!!). I've reported the problem to the technical people. As I cannot be sure of the accuracy of the allegation, lest I make an unfair accusation I'll withdraw it. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 01:38, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
- It was not. If it was locked I would not have edited it. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:43, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
- Then I accept you in that. As I say Wikipedia seems to be sending strange messages right now. One of them is saying that unprotected pages are protected. When I hit the button to see if it was right it asked me if I wanted to unprotect the page, hence the confusion. Apologies for any offence caused. It was due to false information on the screen. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 02:21, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Guys, let's assume good faith. We all want what's best. I don't mind either way which design this template uses. They both look great to me. Coffee 02:15, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
- Its hard when legitimate anon changes to a page are described as vandalism. 188.8.131.52 02:39, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Here, I'll add the template here:
There. All done according to policy. Bratschetalk 5 pillars 02:29, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
- I removed the template and unprotected as there doesn't seem to be any active discussion or dispute here. --Tony SidawayTalk 10:40, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
"Hi, left line! How's it going? Where's your friend, right line? Oh, he ran away? I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully you can find your right line friend soon, because by yourself, you look unbalanced and ugly. Take care!" -- Quasipalm
- As I see it, there are two issues:
- What should the standard infobox class look like?
- Should the Pope articles (or indeed, any and and all articles) use the standard infobox class?
- My opinion, for whatever it may be worth, is that the first question should be addressed, but not here, and the answer to the second question is an unqualified "yes". -- BBlackmoor (talk) 17:56, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
The decision has been taken on the template being used for popes. If other pages want to use inferior design that is their problem. The design for this page has been chosen. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 07:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Just saw that there has been some edits back to infobox class; however, I think the improvements by Netoholic that replace the transclusion of /dead /alive were useful. Can we incorporate those some how. Trödeltalk 20:15, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Although I've restored most of the ugly "missing borders" design, I completely prefer the simple plain infobox style. Hard-coding CSS as we are limits the ability of users to customize their own view. For example, if you don't like the plain default infobox style, you can modify your own personal stylesheet to make it look however you prefer. The problems come when people make hard-coded decisions because then you are locked out of personal customization. -- Netoholic @ 20:40, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
- Is there someway we can get an infobox derived style incorporated in the stylesheet - that inherits from infobox and leaves off the borders - so that if someone makes customiziations it will look that way - I am assuming the missing borders will still be missing unless the user customizes the new style. That way we can have the best of both worlds and those that dislike the missing borders can overwrite that in their personal stylesheet. Trödeltalk 21:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
- I would say the best solution would be for those that specifically like the missing borders to customize. Generally, we wouldn't want styles added to the main stylesheet which only benefit one single template. Could you imagine the chaos if every template's fans wanted that? The main stylesheet should hold good generic classes that apply very broadly. So far, this pope infobox seems like a one-off which not a lot of support either way. -- Netoholic @ 21:37, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
- This is why I gave up on this last March - when I tried to figure out where to go to get some kind of help I was told - don't bother. I don't want all the boxes without borders - personally I think the biography infoboxes look better that way - I don't see a problem with a biography style. I disagree there would be chaos - a limited number of variations would be good for creaters of infoboxes to use, but a one size fits all seems anti-wiki. Trödeltalk 22:01, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
3RR Warning[edit]
To all editors: Please do not keep undoing other people's edits without discussing them first. This is considered impolite and unproductive. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Imposing a new Style[edit]
The continued attempts to impose the toccolours type style on this infobox is annoying. Those that are contributors to religious leaders articles have supported the infobox style without lines on the top/bottom/right for over half a year of continued use in those articles. Attempts to change the style are never discussed in advance; they are just made, and the few people like me or Jtdirl who watch this page have to revert. The anonymous AOL user(s) who also edit this template are insulted even though they make frequent substantive edits to the Pope articles. When is this going to stop?
I have tried to incorporate the changes made by Netoholic (and others) to use the infobox style with minimal changes so that the custom stylesheets will work with this infobox, while retaining the customization designed for this biographical infobox. Attempts to get a biography style incorporated in the stylesheet to allow those that use the custom stylesheets and hate the missing lines to keep them by customizing their stylesheet (since they are among the small minority of users of wikipedia who even know how to do this). However, that suggestion was met with scorn. (from above) "Could you imagine the chaos if every template's fans wanted that?"
Therefore, I plead with all that are trying to force this change, to not keep reverting the religious leaders style customizations. If you want, please inform us of new devleopments like the better way to handle missing parameters (even Be Bold in making those changes directly). However, the authoratitive attempt to force us to change is 1) annoying, and 2) not true (there is no authoritative command that we can't have some customizations). Trödeltalk 20:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree totally. It is annoying when a small number of people (actually there have been two main culprits, ed and Netoholic), just try to bulldoze their way onto pages and make unilateral changes, offer little in the way of explanation, ignore all opinions expressed, ignore debates, ignore consensus achieved and then abuse anyone who dares say 'hold on a minute'. Their approach simply drives people away and offends others. Wikipedia is meant to be a community, not a dictatorship. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 20:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
If you like the way the box looks, with the uneven borders, you don't need to revert war over it... you can make that change to your personal stylesheet. If you use the Monobook skin, add this line to User:Jtdirl/monobook.css:
.infobox { border-top: 0px; border-right: 0px; border-bottom: 0px; }
This is why CSS classes are so powerful, they allow user customization. By "hard-coding" your preference into this template, you aren't giving other editors the same freedom. -- Netoholic @ 22:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- You have said that several times, Netoholic, treating us like children who can't understand the beauty of "the right way". however, as noted above, there is no reason that all boxes anywhere in any article have to look exactly alike. The suggestion that we create a biography style for boxes like this - with a colored backround behind the name, line between the picture and the information, and missing lines on the top/right/bottom; was met with scorn - something about chaos. These exact arguments were made regarding use the toccolours style, but because that thing was so ugly, somehow the infobox style got created.
- In other words, everyone must accept pages your way unless they themselves opt out, even though a clear consensus said that they don't want your version! And you wonder why so many people have a problem with your attitude. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 22:26, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- You keep using words like "clear consensus", but do you have any notion of what that means? Obviously there is no consensus since this issue keeps coming back to the fore. My suggestion above is one way to work towards consensus. If you can agree that your personal preference can be satiated by my solution, then we can stop this. Do you have any better way to resolve this situation? -- Netoholic @ 22:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- We've had a consensus for several months now: just look above to the other talk page sections. The template remained unchanged until you yourself edited to the different version. No one else has brought the issue up except you. To me, that shows there is an agreemnt among all editors but one. I believe that demonstrates a consensus. Bratschetalk | Esperanza 22:54, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- Exactly -there has been concensess for a long time - amongst the editors or the articles in question. Coming here and forcing a change on us when you have made no changes to the articles where the template is being used, and forcing the template changes. You made the changes without any indication on the talk pages, etc. You have been involved in this discussion before - and yet think somehow if you come and make the changes every 3-4 months - you will get your way. We have even, in good faith, adopted as many of the changes as we can, but that is not good enough for you. Trödeltalk 12:16, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- This seems to be a fair statement of it. I think this is a clear example of a clash that commonly happens: standardisers working in good faith clash with those working on articles. Both need to give a little to understand each other's aims. James James 23:06, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- However, I have a difficult time believing that Netoholic is working in good faith. He refuses to help standardize the customization. He comes here making the same tired arguments that he made before. He ignores those that tried to incorporate the standardization. He refuses to discuss on the talk page before making changes. If you read the responses to my querries above you will see he has made NO EFFORT to understand the aim on this infobox and accomodate it. Trödeltalk 12:16, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Except for the past week, I have never before been involved with the previous "missing borders" dispute on this template. I believe you have me confused with the several other independent editors that have come here over time. -- Netoholic @
- However, I have a difficult time believing that Netoholic is working in good faith. He refuses to help standardize the customization. He comes here making the same tired arguments that he made before. He ignores those that tried to incorporate the standardization. He refuses to discuss on the talk page before making changes. If you read the responses to my querries above you will see he has made NO EFFORT to understand the aim on this infobox and accomodate it. Trödeltalk 12:16, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- This seems to be a fair statement of it. I think this is a clear example of a clash that commonly happens: standardisers working in good faith clash with those working on articles. Both need to give a little to understand each other's aims. James James 23:06, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- You keep using words like "clear consensus", but do you have any notion of what that means? Obviously there is no consensus since this issue keeps coming back to the fore. My suggestion above is one way to work towards consensus. If you can agree that your personal preference can be satiated by my solution, then we can stop this. Do you have any better way to resolve this situation? -- Netoholic @ 22:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
[2] You've been editing this template since May 11, 2005, including edits with summaries such as per the talk page, and indicating that your preferring style is supported by consensus. That is simply not true. This has consensus. Please stick to the facts. Bratschetalk | Esperanza 19:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- That edit, and the related ones from May, have nothing to do with the missing borders dispute. They dealt with entirely something else. I have edited this template before, and others before me have edited this template to re-enable the borders, but before this week I haven't edited this template to re-enable the borders. Please stick to the facts. -- Netoholic @ 20:50, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, that's what I meant. Sorry if it didn't carry that across. The point is, however, that you have been editing the template against consensus. The "dead=dead" requirement was accepted by consensus, and you reverted that as well, though not recently. I think we can leave the template as it is now. Bratschetalk | Esperanza 02:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not worried, I was right about dead=dead, too. It's no longer part of this template. Anyway, this is on my watchlist, so when someone else comes and complains about the missing borders, I'll make sure to point out that there are others that feel the same way. -- Netoholic @ 04:05, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, that's what I meant. Sorry if it didn't carry that across. The point is, however, that you have been editing the template against consensus. The "dead=dead" requirement was accepted by consensus, and you reverted that as well, though not recently. I think we can leave the template as it is now. Bratschetalk | Esperanza 02:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Other Popes named XXX[edit]
Would anyone object to me adding another line to the infobox which would place "Other Popes named XXXXX" at the bottom of the infobox (before the footnotes)? This would be an optional line and thus would not make a mess on popes with unique papal names. I would personally go through and add this becuase I don't know what script can use the page name minus the word Pope at the beginning and the Roman numerals at the end. I have seen some of the articles include a "See also" section linking to the disambiguation page for that Pope's name which I think looks kind of silly. This would be much easier. If you disagree with this addition, please just remove it, but contact me. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Added but I couldn't figure out how to center it across the whole template. If someone else could do that I'd be much obliged. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)Done savidan(talk) (e@) 23:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Consecration Date[edit]
Because there are a disturbance about "papacy began date" maybe it's better to insert to the Infobox also the "Consecration Date" (Crowning, installation, enthroned, or something what).Kask 08:12, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Feast Day[edit]
Would it be possible to add a field for the pope's feast day? Loyola 07:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Captions to the images[edit]
A portrait of a pope that doesn't give an artist's name, or date the manuscript illumination or tell whatever the reader is seeing, is jejune. Any illustrated book for grown-ups identifies what its illustrations are of. How can captions, which are essential info, be entered into this very bulky and intrusive "info"box? Would it be as simple as inserting "| caption = |" in the formula above? --Wetman (talk) 20:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
New Design[edit]
I believe that once again this template needs redesigning. I don't know if anybody has noticed but all of the other christian religous figures templates such as bishops, arhcbihsops, cardinals... have all had a recent makeover by myself in an attempt to modernize the templates. The template is the last one and will be styled as all the others with of course the additional requirments and modifications needed for a pope. Really this is just an enquiry to see if there is anything else that anybody would like added to the template so that when I 'rebuild' it it will be there waiting. I hope you like the new template when it is comleted. The Quill (talk) 13:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Problem with May 29 revision[edit]
Today's revision causes significant display problems on certain browsers/monitors, creating large amount of whitespace at the top of the article. On Pope John Paul II, for example, the page was completely blank except for the Infobox! I've reverted to the stable, pre-May 28 version until this can be straightened out. JGHowes talk - 03:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, we had the same problem with Pius XI, big time with Pius XII, Paul VI, to name a few. I am sure this can be solved and I appreciate all the effort which go into this template. Thank's--Ambrosius007 (talk) 08:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Birth name[edit]
This used to have a field for a Pope's birth name/pre-papal name. Most Popes have that laid out in the template already. However, it was removed at some point, and I can't find a reason why. Could someone add the "Birth Name" field back in? Or is there a reason for its removal?--Tim Thomason 03:24, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- That attribute is still present in the code and I've checked the code path to make sure it should be working: can you give an example page where it isn't working? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:30, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Every page. The example at the top of this talk page doesn't show his birth name. Any pope I check doesn't have it in the infobox, even though they all have it in the coding (Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict VIII, Pope John II, Pope Pius X, you name it). It seems to be in the coding on this page, but is it somehow connected to "Infobox Christian leader"? It seems to show up on other "Christian Leaders" but not any popes.--Tim Thomason 06:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not sure why it's showing up on other Christian leaders, because these edits seem to have broken it everywhere (there can't be both a "header19" and a "label19". Simple to fix, which I'll do now. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 08:44, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
- Done Verified at Pope John Paul II. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 08:47, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


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subset: commoncrawl


text:
The Rainbow Warriors face a rebuilding year after a memorable and record-setting 2015-16 season. UH returns just one starter – senior forward Mike Thomas – from last year's squad that won a school-record 28 wins, captured the Big West title and picked up the program's first-ever win in the NCAA Tournament. Second-year head coach Eran Ganot will rely heavily on 10 newcomers, among them Division I transfers Jack Purchase (Auburn) and Noah Allen (UCLA). This is the eighth year UH will host the Hawaiian Airlines Diamond Head Classic. The Rainbow Warriors are 12-9 (.571) all-time in tournament and have finished 3rd in each of the last two seasons.
Led by fifth-year head coach Dan Muller, the 2016-17 Illinois State men's basketball team returns four of five starters and seven letterwinners, including four of last season's top-five scorers, plus eight newcomers. The 2016-17 Redbirds aim to build upon last year's 18-14 overall record and 12-6 Missouri Valley Conference mark, good for second place in the MVC and signifying ISU's highest league finish and most conference wins since 2007-08. Entering their fourth year with the program, guards Paris Lee and Tony Wills will be relied on for senior leadership in 2016-17. Lee, who averaged 11.1 ppg to rank second on the team last season, is Illinois State's top returner in scoring, assists (3.7 apg) and steals (1.7 spg). The Redbirds also return their top rebounder from last season in junior forward Deontae Hawkins (5.8 rpg). Fellow junior forward MiKyle McIntosh (10.9 ppg) joins Lee, Wills and Hawkins as a returning starter. Illinois State enters the 2016-17 campaign having upset a Top-25 team in each of the last five seasons.
San Diego State, the three-time defending Mountain West Conference regular season champions, return three starters and eight letterwinners off of a squad that posted a 28-10 record and advanced to the NIT national semifinals. The Aztecs, who have advanced to the NCAA or the postseason NIT each of the last 11 seasons (eighth longest active streak nationally) won 21 of their final 25 games in 2015-16. Two-time national coach of the year Steve Fisher returns a veteran group, led by returning starters junior guard Trey Kell (12.6 ppg, 3.7 rpg), sophomore guard Jeremy Hemsley (12.0 ppg, 1.8 apg) and sophomore forward Zylan Cheatham (7.9 ppg, 5.4 rpg). San Diego State returns nearly three-quarters (72.6 percent) of its scoring from last season and the eight key returnees are a major reason the Aztecs led the nation in field goal percentage defense a year ago (37.3 percent).
Under the direction of new head coach Kyle Smith, USF returns just six letterwinners off of last year's team which finished 15-15 overall and 8-10 (5th) in the West Coast Conference. Among the lost letterwinners are five starters, including leading scorers Devin Watson (20.3) and Tim Derksen (16.9) along with last year's top rebounder Dont'e Reynolds (6.9). Senior guard Ronnie Boyce ranks as the team's leading returning scorer after he averaged 11.1 points a game a year ago. USF's five other returnees combined to make 23 starts and score a total of 365 points on the year. USF's roster also features 10 newcomers, including eight freshmen. Among the new players is a familiar face in point guard Frankie Ferrari. Jordan Ratinho, who earned Northern California Player of the Year honors last year at De La Salle High School, is one of eight freshmen on the roster.
Veteran head coach Doc Sadler looks to lead Southern Miss to a successful campaign in his third year at the helm. The team's strength lies in the backcourt, where Khari Price will look to lead the way as the team's top returning three-point threat (9.6 ppg). The Golden Eagles are making their first trip to Hawaii since 1998.
As one of just seven teams in NCAA Division I men's basketball to amass 25 or more wins in each of the last four seasons, the Stephen F. Austin Lumberjacks rolled to a 28-6 mark in 2015-16 and were once again the unquestioned lords of the Southland Conference by locking up their fourth-straight regular season crown with a perfect 18-0 mark in league play. As an entrant in the NCAA Tournament for the third consecutive year – and the fourth time in program history – the 'Jacks sprung one of the biggest upsets in tournament history when, as a 14 seed, they busted up third-seeded and No. 8-ranked West Virginia 70-56 in the opening round. SFA hired former Texas A&M assistant Kyle Keller as the program's new leading man. In 2016-17, Keller will rely on an experienced core of returners including senior Dallas Cameron (3.5 points, 1.0 rebounds in 2015-16), junior Ty Charles (9.4 points, 4.8 rebounds per game in 2015-16) and sophomore TJ Holyfield (7.5 points, 4.2 rebounds, 1.5 blocked shots per game in 2015-16) to help the 'Jacks remain atop the Southland Conference.
Tulsa is in its third year under head coach Frank Haith, and last season reached the NCAA Tournament for the 16th time in program history. In two seasons at Tulsa, Haith has compiled a 43-23 record, and has a 248-152 record in 12 years as a head coach. Of his 12 teams, 10 have reached the postseason, including four NCAA Tournament appearances. In 2015-16, the Golden Hurricane finished third in the American Athletic Conference and claimed wins over No. 9 Wichita State and at No. 16 SMU, as well as at Oklahoma State, and at home against UConn, Temple and Cincinnati. Senior guard Pat Birt is the leading returning scorer for the Hurricane. He averaged 12.0 points and 3.3 rebounds, and led the team with 78 3-pointers last season. Sophomore guard Sterling Taplin averaged 2.6 points in 9.8 minutes per game in 29 games last season. Junior forwards TK Edogi, who averaged 1.3 points and 1.3 rebounds in his first two seasons, and Junior Etou, who transferred from Rutgers, redshirted in 2015-16.
The Utah men's basketball program is coming off a 2015-16 campaign in which the Runnin' Utes went 27-9 overall, notched a second-place finish in the Pac-12 with a record of 13-5 and earned its second-consecutive trip to the NCAA Tournament. The Utes return two of five starters from last season, including senior guard Lorenzo Bonam (10.2 ppg, 3.0 a/g, 35 steals in 2015-16) and junior forward Kyle Kuzma (10.8 ppg, 5.7 r/g, .522 fg pct.). In addition to the Hawaiian Airlines Diamond Head Classic competition, the Utes will face a pair of Big East squads this season, hosting Butler (Nov. 28) and traveling to Xavier (Dec. 10). Utah will open the 2016-17 campaign hosting Northwest Nazarene (Nov. 12). Head coach Larry Krystkowiak is in his sixth season with the Utes. He is 95-73 overall at Utah and has a combined 137-93 record in seven years at the collegiate level.
Stan Sheriff Center
1355 Lower Campus Rd
Honolulu, HI 96822


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New York, NY 10002
- Sun 11am-4pm, Mon-Wed 5pm-12am, Thu 4pm-12am, Fri 4pm-2am, Sat 5pm-2am
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State Conservationist Russell Morgan recently announced that the U.S. Department of Agriculture Natural Resources Conservation Service is currently accepting applications from Delaware farmers on three national conservation initiatives. The On-Farm Energy, Organic and Seasonal High Tunnel initiatives offer producers technical and financial assistance to address respective resource concerns.
Although applications will be taken on a continuous basis throughout the year, Delaware's three application cutoff dates for fiscal year 2013 will end Friday, Dec. 21, and Jan. 18, and Feb. 15, 2013. The assistance, funded through the NRCS Environmental Quality Incentives Program, will be announced after congressional approval of the new Farm Bill.
"Even without a funding announcement to date, we're moving forward with sign-up as if the Initiatives will continue," said Morgan. "Farmers interested in applying should do so now. Applications are more likely to be funded when received early, since funds may not be available for later cutoff dates, due to limited funds."
On-Farm Energy Initiative: Financial assistance is available for Agricultural Energy Management Plans or farm energy audits that assess energy consumption on an operation. The audit is required to develop energy conservation recommendations. Each AgEMP has a landscape component that assesses equipment and farming processes, and a farm headquarters component that assesses power usage and efficiencies in poultry and livestock buildings and similar facilities to support the farm operation. AgEMPs must be completed by a certified technical service provider.
Organic Initiative: Certified organic producers and those transitioning to organic certification can receive assistance with implementation of practices suited for organic production. Applicants can apply for numerous conservation practices that benefit natural resources including cover crops, crop rotations, prescribed grazing (grazing plans, internal fencing and water facilities) and more.
Seasonal High Tunnel Pilot Initiative: NRCS helps producers plan and implement high tunnels that extend growing seasons in an environmentally safe manner. High tunnel benefits include better plant and soil quality, fewer nutrients and pesticides in the environment, and better air quality due to fewer vehicles being needed to transport crops. Over the past three years in Delaware, 24 producers have signed contracts totaling $141,000 to install seasonal high tunnels on their farms.
The On-Farm Energy, Organic and Seasonal High Tunnel initiatives are available in all 50 states, the Caribbean area and the Pacific Basin.
Go to www.de.nrcs.usda.gov for more information on how to apply for these initiatives or contact the nearest USDA Service Center. In Sussex County, call 302-856-3990, Ext 3; in Kent County, call 302-741-2600, Ext. 3.
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Opencart Customization
- Status Completed
- Budget $30 - $250 USD
- Total Bids 19
Project Description
The project is about to modify an Opencart to sell BOOKS only.
Needed modifications
Add Product screen : SKU , EAN , UPC, JAN , ISBN , MPN fields will be deleted instead of them there will be, Author , Date Of Publish , Page (how many pages) , Language , ISBN , Type of Cover and Shelf for extra. We will write on which shelf the book is on at the store.
There will be a section under Catalog called "Shelfs" from that area we will create Shelfs. While we add a book, we need to select the shelf as we select the category.
In the Shelfs section we need to be able to See in which shelf how many books are there. and when we click on the shelf we need to see the list of books. its for the admin only. in front store there wont be a listing like this.
There will be section under Catalog called "Authors" from that area we will Define Authors from there, we need to select the the Author as we select the Category or Shelf.
Both in front store and admin area we need to be able to list the books belongs to an Author.
Front store , in the product detail page all the new added fields must be seen by the visitors except Shelf info. when they click on the author name , books of that author will be listed.Get free quotes for a project like this
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Was it an offensive foul? Probably. Instead, Kevin Garnett got whistled for the foul despite getting kneed in the man parts, and Dwyane Wade converted a three-point play, the biggest play in overtime of Miami's crazy 115-111 win. He helped make up for the fact that he made two poor plays near the end of regulation, which when coupled with LeBron James (34 points, 10 rebounds, seven dimes) missing two potential game-winners, forced overtime. The Heat needed all the help they could get (Udonis Haslem, Mario Chalmers, the refs) because Rajon Rondo played the single greatest game of his life (He also got screwed on a rather obviously call down the stretch). He had 44 points, eight rebounds, 10 assists and played every second. From the triples he was making to the shots in the lane to his overall aggressiveness, Rondo looked like far and away the best player on the floor … Why did the Celtics jump up by 10 early in the second quarter? Besides the fact that Ray Allen made a couple of shots for the first time in what seemed like a month, maybe it had something to do with Rajon Rondo being aggressive and actually shooting. He had 10 points by that point, and was even pure on a couple of pull-up jumpers. Rondo (22 points, seven dimes in the first half) continued to make shots in the second quarter, and in the irony of all ironies, could've had 30 at the half if he could've just converted on a few at the rim, normally his specialty. The Heat had shot 6-for-22 overall in the first quarter, while Boston was shooting the fake off Miami's fans, blowing up for seven baskets at the rim in the first quarter, and then at one point making 10 in a row during the second quarter. Suddenly, it was a 15-point lead … Mario Chalmers (22 points) hit a corner triple and then got T'ed up for taunting Keyon Dooling (who reportedly drank three five-hour energy drinks before the game. Did he think they were going to play a 16OT game?) during the second quarter, which was funny because Miami hadn't scored in about six minutes. It was about the only thing Chalmers did wrong the entire first half. Without him, Boston might've been up 20 because LeBron James was asleep and Dwyane Wade (23 points) was just awful. He didn't score his first points until the final minute before halftime. Tony from "Blue Chips" would've been proud of his first half … Things turned in the third quarter because Wade finally got it going, hitting four of his six shots from the field and pulling Miami back within one pretty quickly. During that run, perhaps the biggest play came from Wade on the defensive end. Ray Allen grabbed a steal and would've had a layup. But with his ankle, he jumped about as high as Fat Joe can and Marquette's finest easily snuffed it. On the next trip down, Udonis Haslem (courtesy of Wade) had a three-point play to push the Heat ahead for the first time since the opening minutes … Just a few moments later, LeBron DESTROYED Paul Pierce's lazy layup at the rim, and Wade converted for yet another three-point play on the other end. It certainly felt like the old fellas had lost their legs. By the time the third quarter ended, the Heat were up six and on the verge of blowing Boston back to the Northeast … Keep reading to hear about the NBA Lottery …
The fourth quarter had a little bit of everything, including one moment where Kevin Garnett threw an elbow at James Jones, and J.J. came back at him like he was ready to pull an Anthony Peeler. No one in the world is scared of James Jones, but hey, you never know about those Miami guys … The 2012 NBA Draft Lottery took place last night, and in a major surprise to everyone besides Jon Barry, who somehow called it prior to the show, the Hornets came up with the No. 1 pick and Anthony Davis. New Orleans had a 13.7 percent chance of coming away with the pick, but who knows? Maybe… David Stern rigged it! There was a photo floating around last night of Davis from a few weeks back with a New Orleans cap on. Can we just give Chris Paul back to New Orleans now? Conspiracy theorists will have a ball with this one being that Davis changes the entire climate down there in Louisiana … Then there was Brooklyn, who might've been the biggest losers last night after their pick – which was only top-3 protected – ended up at No. 6 and went west to Portland. When Wes Matthews realized what was going on, dude looked like he wanted to jump down and kiss that fine ass chick representing the Nets. Congratulations Brooklyn. You got a new arena but lost a lottery pick for Gerald Wallace, and probably won't get Dwight Howard now … Washington finished with the No. 3 pick, which could yield them Bradley Beal (or Michael Kidd-Gilchrist), who would be absolutely perfect next to John Wall. And Charlotte lost out on a potential franchise player by getting the No. 2 pick. Instead, they're going to end up with someone like Thomas Robinson. Poor Charlotte. Poor MJ. We literally laughed out loud when we found out they weren't getting Davis … On Twitter last night, someone directed us to CharlotteBobcats.com. We assumed it was for the sorry ass NBA team. Instead, it was something different. Still are we sure that guy in the video actually doesn't play for Charlotte? He'd probably start … We're out like MJ's Bobcats.
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Roast Potatoes and Rosemary (British)
Total Time
Prep 5 mins
Cook 45 mins
Posted for zaar world tour II.
Ingredients Nutrition
- 4 large baking potatoes
- 19.71 ml dried rosemary
- 19.71 ml olive oil
- 2 garlic cloves, crushed
- salt
- pepper
- Preheat oven to 350 degrees.
- dice potatoes into one inch cubes.
- add garlic, rosemary leaves, and olive oil and toss in baking pan.
- cover with sprinkling of salt and pepper.
- bake for 45 minutes until soft in center and crispy on outside. Turn occasionally for even cooking.


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I tend to agree, I use H3 as a backup to my RHS and AHS books. It's
oddly lightweight for its size, must be the paper. It does have some
interesting info not found in other books like the section on
Pelargoniums which helped me differentiate some of them. Other books
tend to just lump them. Only you can decide its value.
neIN, Zone 5
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Christopher P. Lindsey" <firstname.lastname@example.com>
> > Does anyone on this list actually ever USE their copy of Hortus III? I find
> > it aggravating and am trying to decide if it's worth hauling another 1000
> > miles.
> Hi Andrea,
> I think it's interesting from a historical perspective, but since it
> hasn't been changed since 1976 (if I remember correctly) it's sadly
> out of date.
> The standard used to be Cronquist (published around 1987) and is now
> shifting towards the Royal Horticultural Society and their RHS Plant
> Finder.
> So if you don't have anything else, keep it. If you do, there's no
> point unless you want to trace old nomenclature.
> Chris
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To sign-off this list, send email to firstname.lastname@example.com with the
> message text UNSUBSCRIBE GARDENCHAT
To sign-off this list, send email to email@example.com with the
message text UNSUBSCRIBE GARDENCHAT


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10th Anniversary iPhone 8 to Feature Curved Display: Report
Apple introduced the first iPhone in 2007. The 10th anniversary iPhone 8 may, like the company, be undoubtedly successful while not hugely innovative.For the 10th anniversary of the iPhone, Apple is rumored to be preparing, if not a highly innovative design, at least a significantly updated one with a key feature from Samsung: a curved-edge OLED display. Apple will introduce at least three phones in 2017, according to an Aug. 22 report from the Nikkei Asian Review. A source familiar with Apple's plans said to expect 4.7- and 5.5-inch iPhone 8 models with "flat screens," like the current iPhone, but also a 5.5-inch-or-larger iPhone with "a screen bent on the two sides," like the Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge. Samsung is currently the only smartphone maker to offer curved and flexible OLED screens. The company has been showing off its flexible display technology since at least 2012, and last year introduced the Galaxy Note Edge and Galaxy 6 Edge, both of which feature curved displays. Just as Apple catches up, Samsung is expected to take the design further. Bloomberg reported June 6 that, according to unnamed sources, Samsung is working on one phone with a 5-inch screen that can unfold into an 8-inch screen, taking it essentially from a smartphone to a tablet, and another that "folds in half like a cosmetic compact."
According to MacRumors, Samsung is likely to be Apple's primary supplier of the OLED displays. But in anticipation of Samsung being unable to meet Apple's significant demands, Apple manufacturer Foxconn "has been developing glass casings and OLED displays over the past year, in hopes of securing orders from its biggest customer next year."
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How Computers Can Help Doctors to Improve Empathy
When a doctor sees a patient , his first priority is medical – he needs to make the right diagnosis and craft the correct treatment plan. It's only when he is sure he has done a good job as a clinical scientist can he then think about managing the patient's psyche and emotions. This means that the doctor has two tasks which require complementary skill sets. The first task is one which requires logical scientific analysis , where he collects the right data and works through a differential diagnoses . It is only after he has made the right diagnosis that he can then move on to his second task , which consists of caring for the patient ; holding his hand ; and helping to guide him . Some doctors who have an excellent bedside manner are often poor diagnosticians; and this can make the patient's life very difficult , because the patient really does require both compassion and competent clinical care .
Computers can help doctors to make the right diagnosis more quickly, because they can act as peripheral digital brains . They help the doctor to ensure that he has covered all the diagnostic possibilities , so he is no longer worried that he may have missed something important . This is one of the major fears which every doctor has ; and until he has confidence in his clinical diagnosis, he cannot move on to dealing with the patient as a human being . The computer can help to expedite the process of making the right diagnosis so that the doctor has more time to spend talking with the patient . It can also give the doctor a lot more security in his clinical competence, so that he can then work on polishing his interpersonal communication skills. Compassion is something which a doctor can provide only after he has ensured that he's provided basic correct clinical care. If a computer can allow him to do so more efficiently, he then has more time and energy to be able to enhance his empathy.
Authored by:
Aniruddha Malpani
I am an IVF specialist who believes in information therapy. I run the world's largest free patient education library, HELP ( www.healthlibrary.com). I am a Director on the Board of a Healthcare BPO, Inventurus ( www.inventurus.com); PEAS ( www.peasonline.com); and Plus 91 ( www.plus91.in). My facebook page is at www.facebook.com/aniruddha.malpani My linkedin page is at ...
Other Posts by Aniruddha Malpani
Latest News
"It is quite safe to say that local search has been becoming more and more vital, whether you're a local hospital or a national shop, a local SEO strategy seems to be a key to driving more customers through your clinic. Ever since Google's Hummingbird update landed, more and more users are seeing more personalized, relevant, and even localized based results for searches!"
"Actually I do not agree with this article. Sure some cases may be a case of food poisoning. I just had a 24 hour flu yesterday. I had no stomach issues. No constipation, no diarrhea, no stomach cramps. I had severe body aches from neck all the way down to my feet, I had a headache all day, I had a ..."


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January 24, 2010
USA: Will science make the 200-year-old human possible?
. NEW YORK, NY / Wall Street Journal / Life & Style / Books / January 23, 2010 BOOKSHELF Hourglass Refigured: Will science make the 200-year-old human possible? By Matt Ridley Matt Ridley is an excellent professional writer. He wrote The New York Times bestseller Genome (2006) and The Agile Gene (2004). This is Matt Ridley's Book Review of Greg Critser's new book Eternity Soup. Harmony, 234 pages, $26 There is a paradox at the heart of the debate on aging. All the recipes for averting the effects of senescence— the anti-wrinkle oils, the vitamin supplements, the testosterone shots, the strict dieting regimens—are plainly little better than snake oil. And yet something is obviously working: People are living longer and longer, and are getting healthier and healthier in old age. Experts have been predicting for decades that average life expectancy will level out, but it stubbornly keeps rising. Others have predicted a growing burden of ill health among the elderly. Yet old people are healthier than ever, much of their illness compressed into shorter periods at the end of life. Average life expectancy across the world has roughly doubled in the past century. In the U.S., the passing of every day marks another five hours added to people's lives; the number of Americans who are 100 or older has doubled since 2000. The chief cause of this remarkably benign trend is the defeat of serious infectious disease, but there are other elements as well: Heart disease is killing fewer, and stroke is striking later. Read an excerpt from "Eternity Soup" The science of age is equally paradoxical. It abounds in empirical facts about what causes aging, yet the science still lacks any convincing, unifying theory. Eating dramatically less food -- caloric restriction — makes mice live longer; just two genetic mutations can double the lifespan of a worm; breeding from the oldest flies in a test tube can double the lifespan of flies in a few generations; bats and birds, tortoises and rougheye rockfish live for decades while opossums are senile two years after birth. Naked mole rats live five times as long as their size implies they should. Single-celled creatures and animal cells in petri dishes generally can only divide 50 times before the cell line expires. But that's no help when talking about whole animals, because animal tissues apparently evade such limits. To write a book about human aging, therefore, is not easy, a bit like writing a book about gravity before Newton. In "Eternity Soup" Greg Critser has solved the problem rather neatly by meandering through the subject, meeting first the snake-oil salesmen, then the hard-headed scientists and along the way people who cannot quite be pigeonholed as either. His journey takes him from magnificent charlatans who lucratively exploit the gullible ("store your own white blood cells ready for tomorrow's medical miracles") to fascinating thinkers. They all seem to have splendidly exotic names— Rochelle Buffenstein, Leonard Hayfflick, Caleb Finch, Leonard Guarante, Aubrey de Grey—and even the sane ones have colorful careers. Steven Austad, who studies how different species of mammal age, was once a Hollywood lion-tamer. Greg Critser. Photo © AG Mongelli Mr. Critser, a witty and incisive writer, starts off by visiting an international conference of the Calorie Restriction Society in Tucson, AZ. Since permanently hungry mice live longer than those that eat normal amounts of food, apparently quite a few people have taken up the "eat less, live longer" rallying cry of the "CR" crowd. Mr. Critser introduces us to Michael Rae, who is just 21 but already obsessed with squeezing as many years out of his life as possible. Mr. Rae, the author reports, "charmed everyone by openly flossing" during a presentation, "the better to reduce his inflammatory burden." On the whole, though, these CR conventions can be testy and tense affairs: Unfortunately, semi-starvation has side effects such as apathy, grumpiness, and a loss of sexual appetite. As somebody said of giving up alcohol: You don't live longer; it just feels like it. Caloric restricters will be grumpier still when they learn in "Eternity Soup" that they have probably starved in vain. One of the fashionable theories is that each animal species has a Longevity Quotient (or LQ), which measures how long it lives relative to how long it should live, given its body size. Mice have an LQ of 0.7, human beings [3-5]. Some bats — tiny but very long-lived — have LQ's of 9 or more. Semi-starving probably lengthens life only in those species with LQ's of less than 1, such as mice — caloric restriction enables such creatures to reach their full potential life span. But it appears that semi-starving is unlikely to work for species that already live longer than they "should," such as people or bats. Illustration: Polly Becker In most of biology, it is now safe to assume that people are just big mice: We have nearly all our genes in common, after all. But in the study of aging the assumption can be dangerous. As Mr. Critser constantly reminds us, remedies for senescence that might work "in mice" or "in yeast" usually prove not to work "in human beings" or other long-lived creatures. The only primate that researchers in aging find practical to study is the Marmoset, which is about as short-lived as a grant from the National Institutes of Health. We are on our own with our elixirs. How much longer can we live? Is immortality possible? The oldest person in the world (at last report) is a Japanese woman named Kama Chinen, who is 114. She has a long way to go to catch up with Jeanne Calment, the French woman who died in 1997 at 122, the longest verified human lifespan. Those who expect people to be living to 150 or even 200 by the end of this century may be proved right -- experience has shown that it is unwise to bet against longevity optimists. But it is more likely that, with the inexorable conquest of most cancer and neurological disease on the horizon, many more of us will live to 115, in much better health than past centenarians, while the oldest-ever record will only slowly creep up. This is known as the "Rectangularization" of the survivorship curve: Almost everybody lives to his or her full potential age, then dies. Mr. Critser believes that the way to achieve rectangularization is through using conventional medical help, practicing moderation in diet, keeping busy, and hanging around young people. Sounds considerably more pleasant than ingesting hormone supplements by the handful and modeling your life on a rodent's. [rc] — Mr. Ridley's book "The Rational Optimist" will be published in May. Copyright ©2010 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.