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Magic: The Gathering
Magic as an affordable way to have fun with a family? Affordable Option #2: Drafts
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Ender Wiggins
Why do a draft?
Do you like the deck-building element of
? Then you're a prime candidate for just loving the deck-building of Magic the Gathering! If you're a Dominion fan, you might just need to try a Magic the Gathering
But isn't Magic the Gathering expensive?
Some of you are reading the subject line of this review and are wondering if I'm losing my sanity. Magic the Gathering...affordable? Magic the Gathering is usually associated with spending a lot of money, and is usually regarded as a money pit rather than an affordable family game! Maybe you have already read my
earlier review
, in which I suggested that there is an affordable and fun option for families wanting to play Magic the Gathering, namely, pre-constructed theme decks:
Affordable Family Fun Option #1: Theme decks ...and their limitation
Pre-constructed theme decks are great ... but only to a point. Because once in a while every Magic player gets an itch to build his own decks. If you've ever played Magic the Gathering, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. In fact, often it's more than an itch, it can easily become a passion! Even an obsession. Here I have to make a confession: I've only built a few constructed Magic the Gathering decks in my time. Why? The reason is because for me personally it quickly became an obsession. When deck-building for the constructed format, I found that crafting a particular deck quickly began to consume my thoughts and my time. That's not good. Magic can be great fun, and it deserves a place in my life, but it shouldn't be all-consuming.
Fortunately, there are ways that allow for deck-building without it being all-consuming. Ladies and gentlemen ... drumroll ... I give you ... drumroll ...
the draft
! Drafting is the perfect solution for families wanting the fun of deck-building, without the pain of obsession or cost. "Ah," cries the sceptic, his mind filled with visions of hundreds of costly boosters, "but what about your wallet?" Well, what about my wallet? I know exactly what you're thinking: since when is it affordable to do a draft on a regular basis? For four players, isn't it pretty much $40 each time you do it?
Affordable Family Fun Option #2: Drafts ...and their appeal
See drafting puts everyone one a level playing field, as players rip open booster packs, pass out cards, and build their own decks, and then pit them against each other. It's tense, and it's exciting, and it's truly one of the most fun ways to play Magic. The only difficulty is that it's going to set you back $10 each time you do it. For a four player draft, you're looking at $40 a shot. How about if I told you that I regularly do drafts for under $50? That's not the cost for just one draft. That's the total cost for multiple drafts. All for under $50. A one-time $50! What's the secret? I don't buy boosters. I make my own draft pool from a particular set. Want to know how it's done? That's what this article is about.
As I have mentioned previously, I have a family with five children ages 4 to 12. The oldest three (age 8, 10 and 12) all love playing Magic the Gathering, as do I, but that hasn't put me in the poor house just yet! Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to play Magic without getting a second mortgage - the good news is that Magic the Gathering doesn't have to be an expensive hobby, and that pre-constructed theme decks are not the only affordable option for families. Pre-constructed theme decks are great as self-contained games, but we all know that from time to time every Magic player wants to build his own decks. It's this deck-building that is at the heart of a Magic the Gathering draft, and they have been a real hit in our family. And despite what you might think, this doesn't have to break the bank.
What is a draft?
For those who are not completely familiar with Magic the Gathering, the most common way that cards are sold (aside from buying "singles", i.e. individual cards that you are after by name) is through booster packs. Here are two examples from a recent set, Lorwyn:
Booster packs consist of 15 cards, and typically contain 1 rare card, 3 uncommons, and 11 commons. Aside from these rarities, the cards themselves are random. So the rare you get might be a junk rare. But it might also be a power rare worth more than $20!
So what do you do with the booster packs in a draft? Here's the short version: Players open boosters, and select cards from which they then build their own deck. Typically a draft involves each player opening a booster, taking a card, then passing the remainder of the cards to the person on their left, until every player has 15 cards (a process repeated three times, so each player has 45 cards). Then you build your own deck, and play them against each other. Now for the longer version:
Phase 1: Drafting
Each player pays for three booster packs. The usual cost for this would be around $10 per person. Everyone opens a booster pack, takes the card of their choice, and passes the remaining 14 cards to the left. You choose one of the 14 cards that were passed to you from the guy on the right, and pass the remaining 13 to the guy on your left. The process repeats itself, until everyone has 15 cards. That's booster pack number #1! This happens again with booster pack #2, this time passing to the right. With booster pack #3, the cards are passed to the left again.
The result of the drafting phase is that each player should have "drafted" or chosen 45 cards. The trick is to try to "draft" cards that will work together well, and make a great deck. For most players, the drafting is one of the highlights of the whole experience, and is tremendous fun, because of the agonizing and strategic decisions it involves. Usually you'll try to pick from two colours, unless you decide to take a fantastic card in a third or fourth colour, just to stop someone else from getting it and using it against you! (such a "pick" is called "hate drafting"). And there are all kinds of things to think about: limiting your choices to just a few colours, making sure you take powerful cards if they show up (= bombs), ensuring that you have enough cards that will let you remove opponents creatures (= removal), and creatures of your own that can evade his (= evasion), and a balanced mana curve - just to name a few!
Phase 2: Deck-building
By now everyone should have 45 cards, ideally with enough cards in one, two, or at most three colours, with the potential to build a good deck. At this point the deck-building starts. A typical deck might contain 40 cards altogether, with 23 spells and 17 lands. So that means you won't be using all those 45 cards - they are just your starting pool, and you'll only use about half of them, and then add land cards.
Phase 3: Playing
Finally, the actual gameplay starts. By this point, you will have started a mini love affair with your deck. After all, you have lovingly drafted the cards, and lovingly built the deck. It's all yours baby! There is a very "personal" aspect that comes into play, because the deck you are playing is in a very real sense a product of your own choices and decisions, and so there's a real sense of "ownership".
What is the appeal of a draft?
Evaluating the time
So how long does all this take? The drafting might take a little over an hour. The deck-building might take half an hour. So the first two phases should easily be done in 90-120 minutes, depending on how leisurely you draft. And then of course you can do your head-to-head games, usually with a "best-of-three" challenge against each other player! So with a four player draft, if you play each other player at least once, you could be looking at least 4-5 hours. When drafting with two players (using the Winston draft format described later in this article), the entire thing can be done and over with in only 1-2 hours.
Evaluating the experience
So is this fun? It's an absolute blast, and one of the very best ways to play Magic. You never know what cards you'll end up with. Plus you don't know exactly what colours others are drafting. So there are lots of interesting decisions to make when drafting cards: Do you take a card that could be a potential bomb for another player, or stick to cards in the colours that your own deck is shaping up to be? Do you get big creatures, evasion, or removal? What colours are other players drafting? One of the real attractions of this format is that it packs several different aspects into one session: drafting, deck-building, and playing - so there's lots of variety. It also offers a level playing field for all players, so the winner is not just the person who can afford the most expensive cards and construct his deck accordingly, or who just copies his deck from a netdeck downloaded from the internet. Of course you can get somewhat fortunate if there's a real bomb in a booster you open, but for the most part it's very fair and even. And it's different every time! So there's much that's very attractive about a draft!
Evaluating the cost
For $10 per player, that's pretty good mileage. Where else can you get 5 hours of fun for a mere $10? What's more, you get to keep the cards you drafted at the end of the day, so you even get to take home something from your evening of fun! (typically the "rares" are re-drafted, with players picking in turns, starting with the winner). For a group of four people, it's still $40 altogether for an evening of fun. Admittedly, if you're splitting the cost between you, that's quite affordable. If you're one of four guys spending a night out, then $10 isn't too bad.
But now for the downside: what if you're talking about a family, and it's dad who has to front the bill for 3-4 kids playing? Then $40 each time quickly becomes more substantial. Spending forty bucks on a board game which you can play multiple times is one thing, but spending forty bucks to play Magic the Gathering with the kids just for one evening, and another forty bucks to do the same thing again tomorrow night? That quickly starts getting rather painful!
How do you build your own draft set?
So is there a way to make this more affordable if you're doing this regularly with the same people, or in a family? Well there is a solution, and that's to build your own draft set. Here's how I build my own draft set from a single expansion block of Magic:
Step 1: Commons
I hunt around on eBay for a playset of commons. A fortune? Nope. Right now, at the moment I'm writing this, you can buy a complete playset of Lorwyn and Morningtide commons for $9.99. That's right, only $9.99! Okay, so shipping isn't cheap, but for under $20, over 700 cards are delivered to your door! That's impressive isn't it?!
Step 2: Uncommons
I buy a stack of cheap uncommons. For a fun time, we don't need all the power rares, or even all the expensive uncommons. You just need a good variety. So I usually head to an online retailer like bigfireball.com, and buy myself a large amount of uncommons. Most of them are selling at 5 or 10 cents each. So even if I spend only $20, I'll be getting around 300-400 uncommons. That's almost 40 in each colour of Lorwyn, and 40 in each colour of Morningtide. More than enough for a draft!
Step 3: Lands
I make sure I have enough lands in each colour (these are usually inexpensive), for the deck-building phase.
So let's just recap: now I have over 1000 cards from the Lorwyn/Morningtide block. And I've only spent $40. So what do I do next? It's time to make boosters!
How do you make boosters?
Brand new booster packs typically contain 11 commons, 3 uncommons and 1 rare. I'm not using rares, so I go with 11 commons and 4 uncommons. From here it's pretty straight-forward: I enlist the help of my enthusiastic children, who are only too happy to help prepare for a draft. I shuffle all the Lorwyn commons together in a massive pile shuffle operation (accomplished very quickly, with the help of my little elves!), and deal them into piles of 11. Then I shuffle all the Lorwyn uncommons, and add 4 to each pile. Presto, I've just made a couple of dozen Lorwyn boosters with 15 cards each. I pop each of them in a plastic sleeve, so I can store them easily:
Admittedly, they're not wrapped in shiny foil packaging like the official boosters from Wizards of the Coast. And they don't have rares. But for the purposes of a draft, my home-made family booster packs work just fine:
So that takes care of the Lorwyn cards, now I do exactly the same thing with my Morningtide cards. Now I've got Lorwyn boosters and Morningtide boosters. So I can do a Lorwyn draft. Or a Morningtide draft. Or a Lorwyn and Morningtide draft. Whatever I'm in the mood for! Ahh, you're catching on here, and can see the potential for replay value already can't you?!
Do I want more variety? Then I just build another draft pool. I've done the same thing with the Time Spiral block. This block had three sets, so it cost me slightly more - around $50. But with that, I have a Time Spiral set, a Planar Chaos set, and a Future Sight set, as you see here (the smaller piles are uncommons, the larger piles are commons):
Do you see the possibilities now? We can play a draft using just one expansion set. Or we can play a block draft using all three of the Time Spiral sets together. Or if we're feeling really creative, we could draft boosters from the Lorwyn block and the Time Spiral block. Lots of possibilities! And how much did these two draft blocks set me back altogether? Under $100.
I'll concede that $100 is more than your average board game. But think about the hours of fun I've had with these draft blocks! Think about the endless replayability! My kids love it! In fact, it's easily their favourite way to play Magic the Gathering. And think about the variety: on a given afternoon, we might first spend an hour drafting, then half an hour deck-building, and finally an hour or two playing. The decks are put into deck boxes, and pulled out on another day, for more matchups. And when we're sick of those decks, we repeat the whole process, drafting from different sets or a different combination of sets! Fantastic, and fun!
How do you enhance your own draft set?
If you like, you can enhance your draft set with a few little extras, like a storage container, deck boxes, and card sleeves. Here's how:
Storing the cards
I store all the cards in a storage case that my wife kindly bought for my birthday last year:
This particular storage case holds over 1000 cards - which is more than enough for the entire play-set of Lorwyn & Morningtide commons (top two compartments), my uncommons (bottom right compartments), and my lands:
Boxing the decks
Some people insist on using sleeves for all their Magic cards. This can make sense, particularly if the cards are valuable, in order to preserve their value. Now the cards in my home-made draft sets are hardly valuable - they are only commons and uncommons after all! But for my purposes, I'm more interested in deck boxes. I have five different coloured deck boxes:
These Ultra-Pro brand boxes are very inexpensive, and readily available in US department stores like Meijer. As an extra bonus, they each come with 50 matching coloured plastic sleeves:
Most of the time you are building 40 card decks in a draft, so having 50 sleeves is just right, and gives some latitude for building slightly larger decks. So after we've drafted and built our decks, we quickly sleeve our decks. There are several advantages to this:
1. Of course the obvious - it protects your cards, if you're really into doing that.
2. Some of my lands are becoming somewhat "worn", so it prevents players from identifying them while upside-down in the deck.
3. It makes it easy to see which cards belong to which player when playing, because they're all different colours.
But there's an even better reason for getting these deck-boxes and sleeves. Best of all, is the fact that each box holds about 100 cards - which is perfect for storing your deck and the sideboard of extra cards! So we can start the draft on one day, but if we don't get done playing all the match-ups, or even any of them, it's not a big deal. Each player just puts their cards or their deck and extra side-board cards in their box, and we can haul it out on a different day to play again. Works fantastic!
This does add slightly to the cost, but I think the advantages make it more than worthwhile. Particularly the advantage of being able to easily store your draft decks, put them away and pull them out and play them on another day is a great plus!
Winston Draft: How do you draft with two players?
Can you draft with only two players?
Usually a draft requires at least four players to work. But the good news is that there's an excellent draft variant that makes drafting possible for two players. It's called a Winston Draft, and was invented by the creator of Magic the Gathering, Richard Garfield. It's also suitable for drafting with three players.
What is a Winston draft?
Six boosters or equivalent (90 cards) are shuffled together - in other words, the equivalent of three boosters per player, the same as a regular booster draft. Then a card is dealt face down into three positions—A, B, and C.
The first player looks at the contents of pile A and can keep it. If he doesn't want it, he returns it and adds another card facedown to pile A. He can then look at pile B and has the same choice: keep it, or leave it and add a card. The same happens with Pile C, and if he doesn't like Pile B or Pile C, he takes a random card from the top of the deck. When he's taken a card, play passes to the second player, who repeats the process. So every time a pile is not chosen, it gains a card, thus increasing in quantity and quality.
How good is a Winston draft?
Does it work? It works great! The net result is that each player sees only about half the cards, so it makes drafting exciting, because you don't always know what cards your opponent is getting. You do tend to get quite a few cards in other colours, but another advantage of the Winston draft is that it plays very quickly and works well. We typically manage to pull off a Winston draft, complete with drafting, deck-building, and three games, in 45-90 minutes! In fact, once you're done playing, you can always shuffle up the cards into one pile, and do it again. I highly recommend it if you're looking to do a draft with just two players.
For more information, see this article from the publisher of Magic the Gathering
Cube Draft: Can you build an alternative draft set?
What is a Cube draft?
Instead of making a home-made draft set with commons and uncommons of the same set, as I've described above, another option is to build yourself a Cube Draft. You'll find a good explanation of the concept
. Unlike regular drafts, which use booster packs, a Cube Draft is a carefully constructed draft pool of several hundred singles chosen individually for their excellence in game play, particularly drafts, and taken from all the sets in Magic. So with a Cube, cards don't come from one expansion, but from the entire history of Magic, which means that you can build your own draft pool with cards that are all excellent for drafting. The draft pool for a Cube Draft
as originally conceived
has well been described as follows: "The cube is, quite simply, the 50 best cards of each color, the 50 best multicolor and artifact cards, and the 50 best lands ever printed." The cards are then are shuffled at random to make 15 card packs for the players to draft from, but since every card is good for drafting, there's no need to ensure a certain proportionate mix of rares, uncommons and commons - all the cards can simply be shuffled together.
What is an affordable Cube draft?
Not everyone owns big money cards like the Moxes of The Power Nine. Certainly a draft cube using the
cards for drafting ever designed in the history of Magic is going to be out of the question if we're on a budget. But since the inception of the format, many people have started creating their own Cubes, limiting themselves to commons and uncommons, and simply using the cards that they have available. This is precisely what my gamer-buddy, more infamously known as The Masked Man, has done. His Cube consists of about 65 cards each colour, along with a similar number of gold cards, artifacts, special lands, and other mana fixing cards – approximately 500 cards altogether, all great for drafts. It's all packed in one oblong box of goodness:
It is a collection of precisely 500 cards, and has a lovely mix of all colours, including gold. Everything is nicely sleeved, to protect them and keep it all looking nice. And it has all the cards you'd want in a draft: evasion, removal, burn, control, bounce, mana-fixing, and more. It uses only commons and uncommons, so that keeps the cost reasonable. But it features cards from virtually every single Magic set ever printed. And what's more, the Masked Man has made an effort to include every single mechanic the game has ever had. So it's truly magnificent.
Where can I find an card list of a Cube draft?
I knew you would ask. Certainly you can make your own card list, because there's no absolute rules about what must go in it and what must not go in it. But if you're looking for ideas to start with, the Masked Man has kindly allowed me to share the precise contents of his draft cube, and you'll find it here:
The Masked Man's Draft Cube of Awesomeness (500 Commons and Uncommons)
There are a few uncommons in here that are worth a dollar or two a piece, so some might question whether this is affordable. But you can just include whatever cards you get your hands on, and even if you only have a cube of 250 cards, you can still have a lot of fun and replayability out of it. The best part of a Cube draft is that there are no
cards in it - when you're drafting, every card is a good card. In a regular booster draft you sometimes end up with cards in your hand that only work in a constructed format; but that will never happen with a Cube draft, and this means your choices are so much more, and at times more difficult and more fun, and the possibilities for deck-building are greater.
How well do these home made drafts work?
Maybe the skeptic in you thinks that this all sounds fine in theory, but you want to know how it works in practice! Sure. I've written two pictorial session reports describing drafts with home-made draft pools. Both happen to be using the cube draft pool, but I can honestly say that my TimeSpiral block drafts and Lorwyn block drafts have been equally successful and fun.
The Ender family opens Rectangular boxes and does a Cube draft!
This was a five-player draft with three of my children:
The Masked Man goes homeless and hungry after drafting his beloved Cube
This was a two-player Winston draft:
In short, they work very well. And the replayability is excellent. For example, for well under $50 you can build yourself a Lorwyn/Morningtide block draft pool of commons and uncommons that you can play over and over, and it will be different every time. Essentially it is the equivalent of a self-contained game that gets multiple plays.
The final word
Magic the Gathering does have some downsides, some of which I've listed in my
previous review
, including affordability, obsession, and theme. But that doesn't mean that it's a game to avoid entirely. With a spirit of moderation and discernment, I think this has the potential to be a great game for families. Magic the Gathering remains one of my all-time favorite games. Although it's true that the game has some objectionable cards that one may need to avoid for children, for the most part the scope of the game is incredibly rich, and the mechanics diverse, and the notion of playing with assymetrical decks that are still balanced is particularly admirable. Deck building is one of the most fun parts about Magic, and making your own draft pool is both an affordable and fun way to do this in a family.
The complete list of Ender's pictorial reviews:
Last edited Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:47 pm (Total Number of Edits: 5)
Posted Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:33 pm
[+] Dice rolls
Eric Jome
United States
Drafting Magic cards is an excellent way to enjoy the game. It's a skill admired by veteran players as well as being easily enjoyable for the new player. It is among the most popular of tournament formats, so should you find yourself at a big event, you are likely to have the opportunity to draft with new friends... many people who play Magic are enthusiastic fans of drafting.
In addition to buying cards cheaply by picking up common and uncommon lots from Internet auctions, the secondary market for boxes of cards can quickly become another option. The primary interest for most Magic players is a format that involves the most recently released sets; the format is called Standard. As older sets rotate out of Standard when new sets are added, cards from those older sets are often available at discounts. Thus, if you are looking to form a draft set, you can sometimes get a bargain on cards from a set that has rotated out of Standard format.
Magic over the years has changed a great deal from what older players may remember. A great deal more care is taken to design integrated cards with interesting interactions - very powerful cards that ruin the game are fewer and further between then ever. Colors are more diverse, strategies more interesting and varied. Drafting Magic on the cheap can be a great way to get back in touch with a game that has made great improvements over the years and offers a lot of clever and fun play.
And best of all, if you have an old shoebox of cards laying around, you can build draft sets out of that for the ultimate in low cost Magic - you've already paid for it, why not enjoy it?
Posted Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:40 pm
[+] Dice rolls
Steven D
United States
To make it even more affordable... go to
...and print out the proxy cards.
Just sleeve the printouts backed by your less favorite "real" commons and you can build draft cubes with almost any card you want!
If you are just playing at home, no need to buy the mythic rare planes walkers... but they can be fun to play with.
Have fun!
Posted Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:19 pm
[+] Dice rolls
Viranga Ratnaike
This is especially true when I am close to the centre of the universe.
I hope to replace the photo with a drawing of my own.
Do you ever draft with people of varying skill levels?
Every three months I have friends over for a day of playing Magic. Everyone uses a sub-collection (cube) of my cards. But we do `sealed deck' instead of draft. With each new set of magic, I buy several commons and uncommons. This keeps my ongoing costs low, while providing my friends with a bit of variety.
I've been wondering how to draft with my friends as there's a wide spectrum of familiarity with the cards. From a friend who looks after a magic website, to the friend who introduced me to magic, through to people who've only experienced Magic on the three monthly magic days, to a couple of people who are only just beginning. The beginners have the option of playing with very `broken' pre-constructed decks that I have available.
With `sealed', everyone has a similar base to build their decks from. And they always have a sideboard of lots of good cards with which to improve their deck. I'm worried that with draft, some people might get stuck with naively chosen cards for the whole day. As I'm the host, my win condition is seeing everyone happy
So I'd love to learn ways of drafting for different skill/familiarity levels.
The article was very nice btw
Posted Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:12 am
[+] Dice rolls
Markus A
It's so stimulating being your hat
The way forward is sometimes the way back
My only ever Magic purchase was a box of around 400 Lorwyn commons/uncommons + 20 of each basic land. It was very cheap and provided a great many evenings of fun Winston Drafting.
A great way to scratch the occasional deckbuilding/ccg/magic itch
Posted Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:14 am
[+] Dice rolls
United States
San Francisco
I must think over my position and how I may improve it.
I played Magic many years ago but quit because the cost was too prohibitive. You've piqued my interest again though and I've dug out all my old cards: a shoebox full of cards from 4th ed and Ice Age.
What's a good way to start organizing? Should I separate by color or edition? I'd like to try to make something happen with these cards and try it out with my friends before I make any purchases. If I were to order them by rarity, what's the best resource? the online lookup at WotC?
(humorous aside: Richard Garfield taught at the college I went to before quitting and selling his idea to WotC. My classics prof remembered fondly that they laughed him out of their poker game when he offered them a share for an early investment)
Posted Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:42 am
[+] Dice rolls
United States
I've never played Magic despite being interested because I was turned off by the win-by-spending-the-most model.
However, with your how to keep it affordable descriptions and with board games hitting near $70 I might give this a shot.
Anyone care to give some hints for a brand new player on what set(s) would be best to buy from? I would like to have a taste of the rules as they now exist without being overly complex in order to see if my wife would be interested.
Posted Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:26 pm
[+] Dice rolls
Eric Jome
United States
oeolycus wrote:
I played Magic many years ago but quit because the cost was too prohibitive. You've piqued my interest again though and I've dug out all my old cards: a shoebox full of cards from 4th ed and Ice Age.
What's a good way to start organizing? Should I separate by color or edition? I'd like to try to make something happen with these cards and try it out with my friends before I make any purchases. If I were to order them by rarity, what's the best resource? the online lookup at WotC?
Rarity isn't really very important at all. Don't bother trying to pick out cards by rarity if you already own them.
Sort the cards by color. Figure you want to end up with about 400 cards in a drafting cube. Plus or minus about 20. But, equal distributions by color are important. So, I often like 70 in each of 5 colors (350 total) plus about 50 artifacts/special lands.
So, once separated, take a color. Separate into creatures and not-creatures. At least half of the cards in every color should be creatures; so 35 creatures and 35 not-creatures and err on the side of more creatures - even 50 to 20 is fine. Most cards should have a cost of one colored mana plus mana of any color; don't include cards that require more than 2 specific mana of the same color. Select cards in such a way that they form a pyramid in terms of cost. That is, there should be mostly cards that cost 2, slightly less that cost 3, slightly less than that costing 4, and so on. Avoid including cards that cost more than 6.
And choose interesting and fun cards. Cards that interact with the other player's cards. Things that lock down the game or cancel the opponent's turns and such are boring to play against, even if they are very effective at winning the game. Wrath of God? Great card to include. Stasis? Horrible card to include.
These rules will build you a basic, simple drafting cube. It will be easy to play with and offer a lot of fun. As you feel more comfortable with drafting and building, you can start to break the rules, including cards that cost a lot of specific mana or very expensive cards or more artifacts or whatever.
Good luck!
Posted Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:31 pm
[+] Dice rolls
Eric Jome
United States
GamePlayer wrote:
Anyone care to give some hints for a brand new player on what set(s) would be best to buy from? I would like to have a taste of the rules as they now exist without being overly complex in order to see if my wife would be interested.
Wizards releases what it calls "core sets" usually with names like Ninth Edition, Tenth Edition, and so on. These core sets are made up of generally more basic cards - not less powerful, just easier to understand. Meat and potatoes cards. These sets are meant as the entry point for new players in general
When a new core set is produced, interest among Magic players in the previous core set drops nearly to zero. Even though many of the cards remain the same from one core set to the next, I would imagine you can pick up bulk cards for older core sets for very cheap prices. And, it is possible you could find the commons/uncommons sets that are mentioned above for core sets.
I'd say start with a core set, perhaps Ninth, which I think is the most recently defunct set, replaced by Tenth.
Posted Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:38 pm
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John Owen
United States
New York
Articles like this one are why we all love you.
I eagerly await my own children growing old enough to want to play draft Magic.
The only thing I'd add to your article is the idea that it is relatively cheap to buy entire playsets of not only commons, but uncommons, too. On Ebay right now, there are a few listings for complete Lorwyn Common and Uncommon playsets listed at 99 cents. The one ending in a few hours is up to $8 and change, but even if it ends up shooting up to around $20, that's still a great bargain.
Posted Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:27 pm
[+] Dice rolls
Tim Fiscus
United States
Love it! This is a valuable resource, Ender and one I'm sure to reference many times.
I've been running cube drafts from my collection (only commons and uncommons, all unique cards with color-hosers and universally bad cards removed) for at least 5 years now to great success.
Also, Winston draft rocks for two players. I've been using a 2P version called Cunningham Draft as well, but it takes a bit to explain. I think I'll add that to this post later when I have more time.
Posted Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:55 pm
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Joe Niezelski
United States
This is an excellent post. I think I might actually get back into Magic because of it.
Posted Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:33 pm
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Kenneth Rasch
Winston Draft is a nice way to play 2 player "draft" but I'm usually playing another 2 player draft variant.
You have a "cube" or random cards just like in winston, and then each of the 2 players draws 4 cards. They keep 1 of the cards, and hand the 3 other cards over to the other player. Now the players each pick 2 of the remaining cards, and give the last card to the other player...
Repeat like this until you have a bunch of cards, and then deckbuilding is the same as any other draft (basic lands are added, and deck must be minimum 40 cards)
This variant may not have as much hidden info about what players are drafting (compared to winston draft) but it's much faster.
And I agree.. Magic doesn't HAVE to be expensive if you just want some casual fun.
Another variant is to have 1 huge deck of random cards (no lands). There is no drafting or deckbuilding - but each player draws cards from the same cube - and can play cards as either land (red cards = mountains, blue cards = islands, and so on) or they can play the card as the spell it is.
Last edited Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:34 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Posted Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:32 pm
[+] Dice rolls
David Gardner
David Gardner
United States
Dist of Columbia
Ender, such a great posting. Thank you. I have lots of Magic cards -- probably "too many" (though I'm sure the # is nothing compared to many people reading the Geek) -- and lots of love for the game, but I hadn't thought of using these kinds of formats until your posting laid out all so accessibly. Now this all feels like a really easy way to get my kids into the game in a regular and engaging way, and for us to play Magic half as much as we do Dominion, again! Your keying this posting into Dominion's popularity was thoughtful and timely.
One question: Do you typically encourage opponents in a Winston draft to have familiarity with the cards going into the draft, or not? Is there a 15-minute period of "look over all the cards we're about to shuffle together," or is it generally blind? Of course it could work either way -- I'm just curious what the standard is that you or others favor.
Posted Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:16 pm
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David Gardner
David Gardner
United States
Dist of Columbia
A separate drafting question: I see in the Masked Man's list and I'm assuming from much of Ender's thinking above that the cards being drafted are generally singles. In other words, am I right in supposing that the general approach and aim are to keep duplicates (e.g. four Drudge Skeletons, instead of just one) few or not at all?
Posted Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:35 pm
[+] Dice rolls
Eric Jome
United States
David Gardner wrote:
One question: Do you typically encourage opponents in a Winston draft to have familiarity with the cards going into the draft, or not?
Generally no. The skill of the draft is in being able to quickly assess the value of the cards.
But then, I would be inclined to give some impression of the cards to prospective players. I would say something like "These cards are all from Ravnica and nothing occurs more than twice - most are singles." Or "These cards are all from core sets and many of them are in there at least 4 times."
A little guidance on the era and build style can go a long way in making drafters feel more comfortable.
Posted Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:53 am
[+] Dice rolls
Eric Jome
United States
David Gardner wrote:
In other words, am I right in supposing that the general approach and aim are to keep duplicates (e.g. four Drudge Skeletons, instead of just one) few or not at all?
I guess different strokes for different folks. It will be more challenging to build and to play if every card is different. I see some of the innovators and advocates of the format online are gung ho about only one of each card... but I guess I wouldn't force that rule on myself if I didn't want to.
Especially if you are building your first cube or draft pool. There are core cards that are very good and very useful in just about every set. Commons. In most drafts you'd see a lot of them. So, I don't think it's really against the spirit of the game to have cards in multiples.
I might not go much over 4 copies though. Then you have to deal with the annoying issue of "what if I draft 6 copies of something?" - do you make only legal decks or allow all copies?
One of the core ideas of this thread is doing this on a budget. So, it's better to assume you'll probably use a few of the better cards over because you have them, even if you might want to use other stuff. Then again, you said you have a lot of cards... so sure, one of each if you prefer!
Posted Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:59 am
[+] Dice rolls
David Gardner
David Gardner
United States
Dist of Columbia
Two followups:
I may have missed this, but for larger block drafts (for which you build your boosters), do you maintain the ratio of 3-boosters-per-player? The Winston Draft does that. I'm assuming if you have four players (say, a Dad and his three kids!), do we make 12 boosters for the draft?
And second, assuming that's the way you do it, do you have a process beyond just randomly including a bunch of cards and then mass-shuffling (which is fine by me) whereby you decide which cards/colors fill those boosters? I read somewhere else about maybe putting in one blue card in each booster, then one black card, etc. etc., and if you do something like that, I'd like to hear it.
If you don't have time to follow up, I completely understand. I'd like to thank you once again for eloquently, enthusiastically, and visually presenting step-by-step how you've made Magic work for your family, and I have done so in mine for the past 2 weeks and it's really a great format! I had never drafted from a limited pool before, but it makes things fair, fun, and very replayable. We have only done one Winston Draft so far, deck box and card sleeves and all, just from 10th Edition boosters. It made for a very fun week. My plan is to continue opening up all the boosters I got (box of 36) and then eventually have those cards as the larger "block draft," which is why I'm asking the questions I ask above.
Foolish best wishes,
David G.
Posted Mon Mar 9, 2009 10:59 pm
[+] Dice rolls
Yes, same here. Excellent article indeed.
Posted Sat May 9, 2009 11:22 am
[+] Dice rolls
Chakroun Karim
EndersGame wrote:
Step 1: Commons
I hunt around on eBay for a playset of commons. A fortune? Nope. Right now, at the moment I'm writing this, you can buy a complete playset of Lorwyn and Morningtide commons for $9.99. That's right, only $9.99! Okay, so shipping isn't cheap, but for under $20, over 700 cards are delivered to your door! That's impressive isn't it?!
Great article! A question though : by "a complete playset of Lowryn" you mean :
1- a bunch of commons which happen to have at least one of each kind of cards?
2- a precise collection of one of each common in that set?
3- something else?
Posted Sat May 9, 2009 10:24 pm
[+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Beck
United States
St Cloud
GamePlayer wrote:
Anyone care to give some hints for a brand new player on what set(s) would be best to buy from? I would like to have a taste of the rules as they now exist without being overly complex in order to see if my wife would be interested.
easiest thing for a starter to do:
1. go to a cardshop on a magic day and just watch.
2. buy a couple of premade decks and just go nuts *reccomendation*
3. follow the idea that the author just wrote about (drafting for $10)
4. wiki the rules, and talk to a friend who plays
I personally perfer the 1st option because I like to see the action of a card game. It helps if you go into the place and say that you would like to learn how to play. A great majority of the peeps will "take you under their wing for a minute or two and then have at it with their opponent. I say a great majority because there is always that *one guy who ruins your day by being an a-holio to, as he puts it, "newbs". I personaly want to belittle that guy and call him out. (Generally followed by me splitting the Wins with that a-holio because they usually are decent builders or rich)
However, for most new players, stick with a pre-made. It does two things that no one else can outrightly teach you. It shows you how a deck can truely come together, and it gives you your first mana.
ADDED BONUS: new card smell
Last edited Mon May 11, 2009 4:19 am (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Posted Mon May 11, 2009 4:06 am
[+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Beck
United States
St Cloud
Cheap cards...
1600 cards mostly common no more then 4 of each 10 bucks
i had no idea that they were so cheap... i guess that i should use that thing called the internets more often. (btw i work as a computer technician, that's why that comment matters)
Posted Mon May 11, 2009 5:54 am
[+] Dice rolls
Ender Wiggins
GamePlayer wrote:
Anyone care to give some hints for a brand new player on what set(s) would be best to buy from? I would like to have a taste of the rules as they now exist without being overly complex in order to see if my wife would be interested.
Starting with a draft is probably not the place a new player who knows nothing about the game should begin. If you're completely new to MtG, I would start with the
free tutorial software
available online, and a couple of theme decks just to learn the game and see if you'd both like it. I have made some recommendations for specific theme decks here:
If that works, then you could consider the Lorwyn block as a good place to start.
carthaginian wrote:
Great article! A question though : by "a complete playset of Lowryn" you mean :
1- a bunch of commons which happen to have at least one of each kind of cards?
2- a precise collection of one of each common in that set?
3- something else?
A commons playset is a set of four of all the commons in a set. For example, since there are 121 different Lorwyn commons, a Lorwyn commons playset would be 121 x 4 = 484 cards. This is what I have used (along with some random uncommons) to make the block drafts described in the main part of the article. (Note that a Cube draft is slightly different: for a Cube draft you only use singles of your choice from a variety of sets, rather than four of every common from a single set.)
Last edited Mon May 11, 2009 6:38 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Posted Mon May 11, 2009 6:37 pm
[+] Dice rolls
Tim Burnett
United States
A great introduction to MtG is the new XBox Live game "Duels of the Planeswalkers". Of course it isn't free (there is a demo) and requires an XBox 360 and an XBox Live account. But it got my wife interested and got me back into the game. Now I'm debating whether to play MtG Online or buy a ton of commons and play Winston and Cube drafts. I'm leaning the cheaper draft option, since it involves, you know, real interpersonal people? And it's cheaper.
Posted Sun Jul 5, 2009 8:34 pm
[+] Dice rolls
Hugh Grotius
United States
Wonderful post! My two tweener kids have just started playing Magic with me, and I'm pretty new to the game too. That said, I'm not sure we're ready for drafting yet; we're still learning the mechanics. Also, I've been unsure how to organize all the cards I've bought - the M10 core set, a couple theme decks, some booster packs, etc.
Oh, and the XBox game has helped us all learn the basics -- and it's fun (and cheap).
Posted Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:04 pm
[+] Dice rolls
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Damn, I've tried to deny for years but JRPGs are better than WRPGs
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If you're not a weeaboo it's hard to take most new jrpgs seriously.
2500K @ 4.5 | GTX 670 | 8 GB | TX 650 | 128 GB ssd | CM 690 II
I dare you name a memorable WRPG character, I don't think there will be even 10, it's just the truth.
Challenge accepted!
Mr. House - Fallout New Vegas
Fargoth - The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind
The Bard - The Bard's Tale (PS2, XBOX, PC)
Handsome Jack - Borderlands 2
Marius - Diablo 2
David Serif - Deus Ex: Human Revolution
Morte - Planescape: Torment
The Illusive Man - Mass Effect 2
Geralt of Rivia - The Witcher
Shodan - System Shock 2
I made it a point not to pick games from the same series, btw.
The man keeps us down
because he likes to see us frown
Sinfullyvannila 2 years ago#43
I like anything where I throw stats at stats to get more stats to throw at bigger stats.
"I guess I just like liking things" -Abhed, Community
Yes, said game is worth $5. {3DS Friend Code 3050-7626-8586}
bluemoogle posted...
I can't think of a single JRPG character or storyline that I couldn't insert into a Dragonball Z episode.
I can't either but I think it's because Dragon Ball Z incorporates elements of magic, sci fi, history (Hitler is in an episode and he tries to recruit a couple of Super Saiyans for crying out loud), and basically you can throw anything into it and it would work in some way.
I love that show. :)
The man keeps us down
because he likes to see us frown
BlueswordsX 2 years ago#45
I do of often play RPGs for story first and foremost, and I don't think that's a JRPG vs WRPG thing. Isn't story what a lot of people here tend to stress when the whole debate about what qualifies as a "roleplaying" game pops up? It's a matter of acquired taste at times. I hated Etrian Odyssey II the first time I played it because of the lack of story, yet utterly loved EOIII and solo'd the game when I played it a few years later due to a changed mindset about what I'm looking for in the RPG, and now I have difficulty motivating myself to play the new story mode in EO Untold because of not customizing my own characters.
For me, there's something else I originally loved about JRPG that clashed with some core philosophy of WRPG though. A lot of WRPG fans love stressing choice and creation, but being brought into gaming by Pokemon first and foremost (which is why I originally ignored any game genres that weren't RPG), my mindset for a long time was driven by a desire to "catch 'em all", or 100% completion. I could not motivate myself to play FF7 anymore after I realized I missed a summon permanently, so again this isn't just about WRPG; the fact that you practically need to be glued to a walkthrough if you don't want to miss anything permanently are one of my least favorite aspects of the Final Fantasy series to this day. This mindset made it difficult to enjoy many of WRPG I played at first, especially if they tried emphasizing character builds or meaningful choices. I originally instinctively equated "choices" with "how many New Game + runs I'd need to grind through to get everything" and it bothered me when that wasn't an option. I guess that's why Elder Scrolls was the series that really sucked me into WRPG and made me give the other games another go, as it whetted my collector nature while the choices didn't really mean much in the long run as I could do almost everything anyways no matter how ridiculous it was to be the chosen one ten times over (sorry, that wasn't meant as a burn against the series!). Also I played Morrowind first so that actually impressed me with its story and huge amount of lore. I wonder what would have happened if I played Skyrim first instead...
I've also come to enjoy lighthearted, silly stories and lovable, wacky characters, so while a lot of people complain about silliness, loli, lack of "epicness", ect in some of the more niche JRPG series, that's generally a plus for me. If they make me laugh, I'm entertained, and entertainment was what a lot of game companies used to stress back in the day! What I've come to dislike in some are the angsty stories that try too hard to look cool, going on and on about revenge and destiny to the point I become desensitized.
By the way, Rune Factory 4 is one of my favorite games in years, incorporating a silly anime setting with lots of charming characters with lots of my favorite elements from Elder Scrolls games! Skill level increases everywhere, be it eating, walking, or bathing!
Touhou is love. Welcome to Gensokyo!
bluemoogle 2 years ago#46
capgamer posted...
bluemoogle posted...I can't think of a single JRPG character or storyline that I couldn't insert into a Dragonball Z episode.
Haha yea, that's true. I like the show, too, up until the Majin saga at least. Then it got pretty stale for me.
I like a lot of JRPGs, too, for that matter. I made the comparison mostly because the TC brought up story and characters in JRPGs. But to be fair, a lot of WRPGs are about as deep as a 90s "dark age" comic book. And to be fair to both, not every game needs to be exceptionally deep to be a fun, memorable game.
But it does irk me when people use characters like Sephiroth as an example of how "awesome" JRPGs are.
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.
Sinfullyvannila 2 years ago#47
Sephiroth was wasted potential.
Jenova would have been a better villain.
Yes, said game is worth $5. {3DS Friend Code 3050-7626-8586}
I hate the old WRPGs (BG, PST, etc.). I also hate JRPGs. I find all of those games mind numbingly boring, and always wonder why people consider something like BG is for smart people. It's so brain dead easy.... All of those games are. Only in more recent years have RPGs become fun for me, with a faster pace and third person/first person perspectives. And those are WRPGs. The JRPGs are just as lame as ever.
It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. ...one begins to twist facts to suit theories.... Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
JessofBlades 2 years ago#49
That's great tc; for me the tide turned to wrpg earlier, but I was already into D&D and fantasy beffore I touched my first non JRPG. I was maybe 9 when I played Shadowrun GEN/SNES and (at the time before I played the real version, the awesome) Ultima The Black Gate SNES, and that was the beginning of the end; once I finally got an xbox and a decent PC in the early 00s, I picked up Morrowind, KOTOR, FO1/2, BG2, PST , and Arcanum. I like choice and consequence, I like open worlds, custom characters (or at least breadth in dialog choices to customize personality, and preferably nonlinearity, so yeah, I found my true RPG love @_@
I like some JRPGs a lot; I like Suikoden, Dragon Quest, Rune Factory (over 200 in RF4 already @_@), Earthbound, Grandia, Lost Odyssey, Xenoblade, stuff like that; but more and more they are turning into fanservicy nonsense like Conception or Hyperdimension Neptunia. No f***ing thank you to that, but then there are WRPGs like that too like current Bioware. V_v
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Originally previewed the other day, KAWS made his debut at Art Hong Kong 2011 with a special showing at the Galerie Emmanuel Perrotin booth. Along with past works, the New York artist showcased a series of new pieces, shown below. For those interested in checking them out in person, they will be in display until May 29, 2011.
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This week it has been our intention to notice beauty in the places we tend to take for granted or overlook. In ourselves, in others, in our surroundings. The act of noticing causes us to slow down and to train our eyes to look for something specific. To notice beauty is to disrupt the cycle we can find ourselves in where we are noticing what didn't go our way. We end up noticing the people we don't like, the ways we were slighted, the things that didn't go our way, the disappoints we have with others and ourselves. Adter spending the week noticing the beautiful, we want to take the next step and call out the beauty we see. Why? Because it's nice for someone else to hear? Sure. But we are also changed when we speak out the kindness and goodness we recognize.
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Robert B. Oxnam is internationally recognized as an Asia specialist and
dynamic speaker. He often guides prominent Americans (including Bill Gates,
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Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources (http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/forum.php)
- Cyprinids and Atherinids (http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/cyprinids-atherinids/)
- - Zebra Diano's and Angel Fish (http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/cyprinids-atherinids/zebra-dianos-angel-fish-39415/)
Zebra Diano's and Angel Fish
I have, well had 6 zebra diano's (down to 5)
I also have 2 growing angel fish. I think that the angels went after the now dead zebra.
Are the angels know to go after zebra's? i know that they tend to eat neon's
Tank mates include
5 zebra dianos
1 7inch Common Pelco
2 2inch silver dollars
2 2inch angels
1 black loach.<---hes new only been in the tank a week now.
They might. How big are the angels and danios?
I'm no expert on Danio's... however I have over 10 years with handling and breeding them...
They are compatible with angelfish. But like always watch them to make sure they aren't going after each other.
Generally speaking danio's are compatible with most fish. Usually you just want to avoid them with cichlids, oscars, catfish, and discus... however that is not for all cases, some of those species listed can get along with danio's but it's not common.
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Superb restaurants and legendary beaches
A remarkable architectural heritage
Corcovado's Christ the Redeemer
Weather today
As you'll be able to appreciate when you cruise the Atlantic Ocean with MSC Cruises, in its position on the southern shore of the magnificent Guanabara Bay, Rio de Janeiro has, without a shadow of a doubt, one of the most stunning settings in the world.
Extending for 20km along an alluvial strip, between an azure sea and forest-clad mountains, the city's streets and buildings have been moulded around the foothills of the mountain range that provides its backdrop, while out in the bay there are many rocky islands fringed with white sand.
The aerial views over Rio are breathtaking, and even the concrete skyscrapers that dominate the city's skyline add to the attraction. As the former capital of Brazil and now its second-largest city, Rio has a remarkable architectural heritage, some of the country's best museums and galleries, superb restaurants and a vibrant nightlife – in addition to its legendary beaches. A shore excursion on your MSC South America cruise can be the opportunity to visit the Pão de Açúcar.
The Sugar Loaf Mountain rises where Guanabara Bay meets the Atlantic Ocean. Its name may simply reflect a resemblance to the moulded loaves in which sugar was once commonly sold. Alternatively, it may be a corruption of the indigenous Tamoya word Pau-nh-Açuquá, meaning "high, pointed or isolated hill". On the top of Corcoavado Mountain instead the Art Deco statue of Cristo Redentor (Christ the Redeemer), arms outstretched in welcome, stands 30m high and weighs over 1000 tonnes. It was supposed to be completed for Brazil's centenary independence celebrations in 1922, but wasn't actually finished until 1931.
In clear weather, fear no anticlimax: climbing to the statue is a stunning experience, with the whole of Rio and Guanabara Bay laid out before you.
The statue of Christ on the Corcovado
A cable car ride to Sugar Loaf mountain
Ipanema Beach
13 results found
Excursion code: RIO04T
Long route by bus
No guide available
Possibility of swimming
Limited seats
Difficulty Level Easy
Duration6 h
Adults$32.00Price per person
Children$25.00Price per person
Excursion code: RIO01T
Duration4 h
Adults$82.00Price per person
Children$59.00Price per person
Excursion code: RIO06T
Snack included
Duration7 h
Adults$142.00Price per person
Children$102.00Price per person
GRAND TOUR CORCOVADO & SUGAR LOAF with lunch
Excursion code: RIO06LT
Lunch or dinner included
Duration8 h
Adults$222.00Price per person
Children$155.00Price per person
Excursion code: RIO07T
Adults$129.00Price per person
Children$92.00Price per person
Excursion code: RIO20T
Adults$35.00Price per person
Excursion code: RIO02T
Adults$79.00Price per person
Sedan with driver only (4 seats)
Excursion code: RIO15T
Adults$262.00Price per person
Children$262.00Price per person
Excursion code: RIO16T
Adults$475.00Price per person
Children$475.00Price per person
Van with driver & tour guide (9 seats)
Excursion code: RIO13T
Adults$495.00Price per person
Children$495.00Price per person
Excursion code: RIO14T
Adults$759.00Price per person
Children$759.00Price per person
Van with driver only (10 seats)
Excursion code: RIO11T
Adults$319.00Price per person
Children$319.00Price per person
Excursion code: RIO12T
Adults$422.00Price per person
Children$422.00Price per person
The excursions in the program above are intended to provide MSC Guests with an idea of the different tours that can be arranged in each port of call; this program is merely a guide and confirmation of each excursion and its description and prices will be made during your cruise.
Shore excursions programs and itineraries may vary depending on local conditions and/or any unforeseen events in relation to the timing on the day of the tour.
Some excursions are very popular and therefore availability cannot always be guaranteed, it is advisable to book in advance to avoid disappointment. The guides are guaranteed in English. Only for South America cruises, the guides are guaranteed in Brazilian Portuguese. Narration in other languages depends on the availability of guides. Please note that the final language of the tour will be confirmed on board during the cruise.
Port of Rio de Janeiro
This section contains information on how to reach the port.
Cruise Terminal:
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In Brazil's south-east, the three largest cities – São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Belo Horizonte – form a triangle around which the economy pivots.
All are worth visiting, but the must-sees during your cruise to Brazil are Rio, which really is as beautiful as it seems in the pictures, and the ravishing colonial relic of Paraty which lies between here and booming São Paulo. North of here, the city of Belo Horizonte sits at the heart of Minas Gerais, where the old Portuguese towns of Ouro Preto, Tiradentes and Diamantina drip with colonial history.
The south, encompassing the states of Paraná, Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul, boasts the spectacular Iguaçu Falls on the border with Argentina – one of the great natural wonders of South America. From Curitiba the scenic Serra Verde Express snakes down to the coast, where you can chill out on Ilha do Mel or beach-hop around Florianópolis.
Despite its proximity to the city, São Paulo's 400km coast has sometimes been overlooked in favour of more glamorous Rio. North-east, towards the border with Rio state, the area is developing rapidly, but still offers great contrasts, ranging from long, wide stretches of sand at the edge of a coastal plain to idyllic-looking coves beneath a mountainous backdrop.
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If a game comes along that needs a sub, and is a good game, then people will pay it.
If games keep coming out offering basically the shame shrill... Then who'd pay for it? I think LotRO is a great game, I didn't want to pay a sub for it. I've put about 60 bucks in to the game over time and feel like I've gotten my dollar's worth from it.
The Secret World was one of the more fun games to beta for me lately. (FFXIV, TERA, SWTOR, and other clone junk are my comparisons.) I didn't think it was worth a sub mostly because the content was light, and the action was slow. I'd play it, but I didn't want to sub because I didn't think they'd throw enough content at me monthly to deserve it.
For a subscrption fee now I want daily events, a unique world, monthly content updates, no cash shop, and a feeling that the game has a long term plan.
So nothing deserves a sub.
a yo ho ho
I think all these companies need to take a page from Arenanet & Guild Wars 2 and just sell the game with no monthly fee and let the offer of a game with all its content and just buying the game self itself of course this doesn't always keep things going however i think it appeals to more people not to pay a monthly sub and just buy the damn game lol.
I tried SWTOR f2p version and by god they butchered the games features you can't have more then one crew skill in f2p for example and you can't do much with that alone. however i guess thats the point to force you into paying for each thing seperately or pay a sub which to me is shifty business but i'm more into the idea of MMO's nowadays with the buy to play idea like Guild Wars games.
With the rate of one time payment games and free to play games are comeing out the days of the old sub game are dieing ill agree. But then again the money you pay with sub games is going into developing the game more and more. Like warcraft for example.
The only problem I can see is that once you buy into a gmae and have to sub play it you still gotta pay for expansions to the game. Unless your playing eve online in which the expansions are free. the reason I mention this is that if you are playing the likes of a free to play game again here lies the same problem.
A possible soloution to this I can see is this. If an expansion does come out you can let the features of this expansion still be used in the free to play games. you still need to pay though to get into the areas with the higher quests and new rare items. Wow recently did something similar once mists was reliesed with the ability to play every race in wow now as well as there starting zones regaurdless of what expansion they got.
that and they gave there new customers more for there money. With two expansion packs as well as wow in there battle pack as well as one. the market is there for free to play gmaes and sub games to go side by side but there are a lot more free to play games out there than sub and this im sorry to say is gonna be the way of it. sub will die out and free to play will remain
Originally posted by Vidir
I guess the subscription model is about to die since most players dislike it. And other reason is that the games are not as long live models as it was 10 years ago. Nowdays games are beatet in few days and when you finished that part of the game only thing left is anoying raids or even more anoying pvp.
I'm going to agree with people who said subs will work if the game is worthy of it. I think there's a good portion of the MMO community that has no problems paying a sub. The problem is, there hasn't been a MMO in recent years that warrant a sub. If the service is good, people will pay.
Originally posted by madazz
I honestly think MMOs will turn into F2P with a sub option for most. Its the cash shop that I am not happy about. That is the only part I question. Will they always be around, and if so, will they offer P2W options like the majority, or will it be just fluff?
Personally I think MMO's will go the other way round. they will turn F2P with in-game shops. There's so many games leading that way, rather than going for membership.
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Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Renton81
I personally think MMO's should work the way Guild Wars 2 did. One time payment and that gives you access to the game.
you forgot to add "with cash shop"
he did for get. However, a decent cash shop its welcome if the game has no sub. GW2 cash shop is decent. If you as a company respect me as your playerbase, I will support you by spending some cash in the CS. On the other hand, if you as a company dont respect me as your playerbase and start seeling power and content unlocks that are game breaking and you want to force me to pay you to be good in your game, then i will not respect you and you will see no support from my pocket.
That is how i see the whole Dev/Pub - game/model - playerbase issue. But not everyone sees that, and developers lately dont care for us anymore, they care for the money only.
Originally posted by Renton81
Just in the last few years, there have been several MMO's that have released as subscription based games (i.e SWTOR, LOTRO and various others). Most have reverted to the Free to Play model within a matter of months of releasing. Now this isn't to judge how good these games are and whether they are worth subscription or not. What I wanted to ask is, how long do you think current subscription games will last using this monthly fee model? There's the most obvious game (WoW) that still runs off subs. Maybe the reduced number of players is a sign that they will (not saying soon) at some point in the future go completely free to play? I personally think MMO's should work the way Guild Wars 2 did. One time payment and that gives you access to the game.
A subscription model is actually the only one I trust.
Why ?
Because you get delivered a certain standard of quality and sometimes community.
You get the full game and not only parts of it which you need to buy. If it is a weapon or certain color for nail polish.
It is the most common subscription model we have in most areas in our life and it works.
The game content development and patches is concentrated on the game actually and not on an ingame distribution system.
There are no tricks or marketing hype ala "free" to play to get you ingame, its about the game itself.
At the end, a game is rated on the content and gameplay and not solely on how it is distributed or what type of marketing is used. But.....expriences and the reasons mentioned above, tell me that I rather avoid games with new distribution/marketing techniques implemented with games and prefer the conventional sub model.
Some part of the game industry will of course tell that a sub model has no future, of course since they found a new idea how to gain more profit and will play the PR trumpet about it. The next young generation wont feel the quality loss, they grow up with it. In the future they probably wont even know what it means to actually possess a game with the advance of virtual distributions, only paying a fee to actually use it without downlaoding it.
Originally posted by defector1968
Originally posted by VassagoMael
and ever
Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games
Originally posted by Jonoku
Originally posted by defector1968
Originally posted by VassagoMael
and ever
i prefer B2P but as long as the game is really worth the sub, then the sub will always exist. However, devs are getting lazier (or brainwashed by greedy publishers) and publishers getting greedier by the minute. IF they dont change their ways for good, subs will be in a much worse state than they are now (with or without WoW in the business).
Originally posted by Scot
Most western releases that use a F2P system are going hybrid and include a sub. Maybe the sub only model will return as players get fed up of Play to Win. P2W is not where we are at now, it is creeping in, just like F2P started creeping in a few years ago.
It's actually the opposite. The P2W is getting pushed out in favor of more customer friendly cash shops. When F2P was first introduced to the States, all the games were P2W. Now will each new generation of F2P games, the P2W aspect has gotten less and less until we reached this point where games by in large are not P2W.
Originally posted by niceguy3978
As far as I know only SWTOR, TOR and DCUO abandoned their sub model "within months." This is a bit of hyperbole.
Because those games were fail and needed the money.Correct me if I'm wrong but the #1 Themepark and #1 sandbox are both sub models. I still feel the majority or MMO players perfer a non pay-to-win model and that's why WOW continues to thrive. If these other companies would stop developing garbage they wouldn't need to switch to a f2p model to keep their heads above water. I can't believe people addicted to these crap games continue to fork out the money they do.
If SWTOR was as successful as WOW they would never have switched to F2P.
Originally posted by SlyGamer79
I think all these companies need to take a page from Arenanet & Guild Wars 2 and just sell the game with no monthly fee and let the offer of a game with all its content and just buying the game self itself of course this doesn't always keep things going however i think it appeals to more people not to pay a monthly sub and just buy the damn game lol. I tried SWTOR f2p version and by god they butchered the games features you can't have more then one crew skill in f2p for example and you can't do much with that alone. however i guess thats the point to force you into paying for each thing seperately or pay a sub which to me is shifty business but i'm more into the idea of MMO's nowadays with the buy to play idea like Guild Wars games.
My concern with b2p games is where do you draw the line at downloadable content??....I mean what should be part of that b2p and what should the customers expect to pay for after that?..WIll companies withhold content/features and charge players for it later?....To me the b2p method is the most slippery slope....P2P can be bad also as games like EQ, Rift and WoW charge a monthly and also have expansions that they charge for.....
I can't stand cash shops because nothing ruins immersion more than being told in game that I can buy something. If the game is good, I'll pay a sub. if devs want to stop chasing their tails around with this, then they need to start doing a better job with designing their games.
Either that, or just approach it as a normal game, funded by the purchase price and future expansions. Unfortunately, they still insist on adding cash shops to the mix anyway.
You make me like charity
I think online games should have an initial fee (50ish dollars top), then you can enjoy it for a year free.
Afterwards, you could get the usual subscription based offers. This way you get a nice start.
Keeping it free forever (ala GW1) is kinda hard on the game studio side, especially if there are loaded servers because of this.
It would be better also for the game studios in planning cash resoures ahead, they wouldnt spend the initial income right away in hope subs stay
Originally posted by Tjed
Originally posted by Quirhid
As long as the suckers are willing to pay...
If I got to the point that $15 a month is no longer disposable income, I must have really been a sucker in the business aspect of my life.
I'll be a $15 a month sucker for a quality product any day. That's less than 2 beers at the pub with tip.
What kind of bar charges $15 for 2 beer? Do you get diamonds with that or an erotic massage?
currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101
If the OP is referring to PURE subscription, I think the days are numbered.
However, if the OP is refering to a game with a payment model that includes subscription, I don't think that's ending any time soon.
From a corporate perspective, the more revenue streams the better because that allows for the most potential earnings. In the end, I think the ultimate is:
Box + sub (best subscription plan) + freemium (F2P's optional subscription) + unlimited duration trial (F2P who didn't buy the box) + content packs (everyone except subs) + item shop + expansions (everyone)
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I think it'll see a revival. Not soon, but some time in the next 8-10 years, I think we'll see flat subscriptions as the standard for a certain subtype of MMO as it becomes more feasible to produce more feature-dense, high-production value sandboxes with working suites of dynamic growth systems.
Lots of optional peripheral fees to further customize, I'm sure, but anything that's more of an internally consistent world than a series of modular set pieces is naturally better off with subscriptions, I think.
Originally posted by TickleMeHomo
I remember article,SWTOR team said it will pass time till game goes f2p but after few months ,they went f2p.Games are going f2p,just look ,Planetsside 2/Hawken/MechWarrior i mean serously amazing sci fi games rising the bar how f2p should look like and devs dnt have other chance but to follow the f2p model.
ps2 started as a f2p, should not be referred
Originally posted by Saerain
I think it'll see a revival. Not soon, but some time in the next 8-10 years, I think we'll see flat subscriptions as the standard for a certain subtype of MMO as it becomes more feasible to produce more feature-dense, high-production value sandboxes with working suites of dynamic growth systems. Lots of optional peripheral fees to further customize, I'm sure, but anything that's more of an internally consistent world than a series of modular set pieces is naturally better off with subscriptions, I think.
I mentioned before that subs are odd in that they restrict the company from collecting more money than they can from their customers. The company restricts themselves. I think this is why cash shops and F2P designs arose.
But subs have one advantage which should not be disregarded and something you noted. With subs, the company can plan better. They have a better idea of their income because subs tend to be steady unless you do something to chase your subscribers away. You can predict your revenue month to month.
I would guess that F2P has some consistency too but I would think their revenue waxes and wanes month to month. It's harder to plan long term this way.
Just my hunch.
I cannot afford Free to Play MMOs.
I hope subs last a long time or I'll have to find a new hobby or focus more time on other hobbies I already have.
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1600 Graham Keeley writes from Madrid: Mariano Rajoy, the Spanish Prime Minister, said on arriving at the G20 meeting in Mexico today: "I think what we are going to transmit is a message of confidence in the euro."
He told party faithful he would not implement IMF recommendations at the moment, including raising VAT. Party insiders said that this might prove damaging politically in Spain.
1520 More scepticism over Greece with a warning that allowing the struggling nation more time to meet its fiscal targets will result in an additional need for financial support further down the line.
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Mutation at the mouse progressive ankylosis(ank) locus causes a generalized, progressive form of arthritis accompanied by mineral deposition, formation of bony outgrowths, and joint destruction. Here, we show that theank locus encodes a multipass transmembrane protein (ANK) that is expressed in joints and other tissues and controls pyrophosphate levels in cultured cells. A highly conserved gene is present in humans and other vertebrates. These results identify ANK-mediated control of pyrophosphate levels as a possible mechanism regulating tissue calcification and susceptibility to arthritis in higher animals.


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Add 200 products to an online store - repost
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Add approximately 200 products to our online store.
Create 200 new items on our web store
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Tomato And Brinjal Sandwiches
|Thick tomato slices
|12 , skinned (red variety)
|Eggplant slices
|6 (thick, brinjal)
|Red pepper
|To Taste, thinly julienne
|Red paprika
|1 Tablespoon
|1 Tablespoon, broiled and finely ground
|Coriander seeds
|1 Tablespoon, broiled
|Sour limes
|Fine sugar
|2 Teaspoon
|Black pepper powder
|6 Pinch
|To Taste
|Peanut oil
|3 Tablespoon
Sprinkle the tomato slices with salt and set aside. Sprinkle salt, red paprika, powdered cumin, coriander, sugar and black pepper on the brinjal slices. Poke them with the tines of a fork and allow to marinade for 1 hour.
Cover the base of a non-stick frying pan with oil and fry the brinjal slices on both sides till golden. The slices should not collapse.
Place the tomato slices in the same pan and lightly cook for a few moments on both sides.
Arrange the 6 slices of cooked tomatoes on a flat dish. Place 6 slices of fried brinjals on top of them. Cover them with 6 slices of cooked tomatoes.
Lightly fry the golden pepper strips in a small clean frying pan and spread over the tomato slices.
Recipe Summary
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Nutrition Rank
Nutrition Facts
Serving size: Complete recipe
Calories 1144 Calories from Fat 503
% Daily Value*
Total Fat 58 g88.5%
Saturated Fat 9.1 g45.6%
Trans Fat 0 g
Cholesterol 0 mg
Sodium 477 mg19.9%
Total Carbohydrates 170 g56.5%
Dietary Fiber 89.7 g358.6%
Sugars 67 g
Protein 30 g60.7%
Vitamin A 204.8% Vitamin C 170.7%
Calcium 51.6% Iron 127.6%
*Based on a 2000 Calorie diet


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Income Statement
We have compiled a table of the most important figures taken from our income statement. This is an excellent tool for comparing the years 2014 and 2015 and for gaining better insight into company development.
- 1) [footnotes.accessibility] The comparative prior-year figures have been adjusted to account for the reporting of discontinued operations.


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Community: Fond du Lac
County: Fond du Lac
Historic Name: Walter Chapman
Reference Number: 54300
Historic Name:
Reference Number: 54301
Date: 1912-2-17
County: Fond Du Lac
City: Fond du Lac
Reference Number: 54302
Historic Name: Richard Haentze
Reference Number: 54303
Description: Copy of an artist's line drawing of the exterior of the Fond du Lac Public Library. The library opened in 1904 and was funded by Andrew Carnegie with $30,0...
Reference Number: 54304
Historic Name: Paul Freischmidt
Reference Number: 52998
Reference Number: 54422
Reference Number: 54322
Date: 1928-12-15
Reference Number: 53897
Historic Name: JOHN AMORY HOUSE
Reference Number: 16527
Reference Number: 54305
Historic Name: Arthur Haworth
Reference Number: 54423
Historic Name: Edith's
Reference Number: 54323
Description: Sophia Leonard's 185 colony apiary.
Historic Name: Otto Breher Furrier
Reference Number: 51958
Historic Name: Sabish Jr. High School
Reference Number: 210582
Date: 1925-6-13
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