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Is Lucifer the Devil?
True, False, or Assumed?
What have YOU been taught about Lucifer? I was taught he was the highest archangel in heaven that wanted to take over God's throne. He was the leader of music, as instruments were built into his very being. I was taught that he caused a war in heaven and was cast out with a third of the angels with him. When he and his angels fell to earth, he became the Devil or Satan. This must have happened before Adam and Eve were created, as Lucifer was also the Serpent that deceived them in the Garden of Eden.
When I read somewhere that some people don't believe Lucifer is Satan, I set out to prove he is. How? By studying the Bible, like I do whenever I have a question (or when someone else has a question I wish to knowledgably answer). You might be surprised at what I found out. It does not appear that what I was taught is correct.
I carefully looked up and read all the passages churches use to claim this traditional teaching. I have typed them here for you to carefully read also. You will see that Lucifer cannot be the same entity as Satan himself!
Was Satan an Angel?
Let's start out with the war in heaven. I couldn't believe it when I recently read a hub that taught Michael, the Archangel was the one who caused the revolt in heaven! Though I corrected him, he still chooses to teach falsely! Amazing! Let's read about this war and see literally what the Bible says: the only account of this is found in Revelation 12:3-4a "And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth."
Now go on to verses 7-8 "And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." So, it's obvious that Michael is not a fallen angel, let alone the devil. Also observe that Lucifer is not mentioned in this passage at all.
Now, let's look at what the Bible says about this serpent in the Garden of Eden:
Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, 'Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
- Cross-reference this with Gen 2:19 "Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name."
Serpent is the Hebrew word nachash (naw-khawsh'); a snake (from its hiss):-serpent.
So far, we see the DRAGON waged war in heaven, not an angel. We also see that the SERPENT was a created beast of the field. What we don't see here is any inclination that Satan was an archangel by the name of Lucifer. In fact, Satan is never said to have been an angel "from the beginning". Let's see what the Bible says about Satan:
John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Dragon is the Greek word drakon (drak'-own); prob. from an alt. form of derkomai (to look); a fabulous kind of serpent (perh. as supposed to fascinate):-serpent. In fact, if you study the book of Revelation, this dragon with seven heads and ten horns is Satan, who rises up out of the "sea" of peoples, nations, tribes and tongues. Seven kingdoms with ten kings.
If you cross-reference the word "dragon" in Revelation, you will be brought to Psalm 74:14: "Thou didst crush the heads of Leviathan". For a pretty graphic description of this dragon, read Job 41!
Speaking of "crushing heads", what was the curse on the "serpent" in Genesis 3:15? "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will crush your head, and you will strike His heel."
For more about Satan, I invite you to read one of my latest hubs, God Created Satan - Did God Create Evil? For now, we're going to focus on the identity of Lucifer.
Fallen Angels: Kings of the Earth
Was Lucifer in the Garden of Eden? Was he the serpent? Let's look at the only passage used by traditional doctrine:
Ezekiel 28:12-16 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, 'You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. On the day that you were created They were prepared. You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire."
I don't see Lucifer mentioned here at all. In fact, it would be the "king of Tyre". I don't see an archangel mentioned here either, but rather a cherub. Did God place cherubim in the Garden of Eden? Yes.
Genesis 3:24 confirms, "So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life."
The only passage that mentions the name Lucifer (v. 12) is found in Isaiah 14:11-17 "Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.' How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (a proper name inserted in Latin by the Catholics) ~ in proper translation, it would state "star of the morning" ~ son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit. Those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, saying, 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, Who made the world like a wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?'"
In order to know who helel (star of the morning) is, we must go to the beginning of Isaiah 14:3-4 "And it will be in the day when the LORD gives you rest from your pain and turmoil and harsh service in which you have been enslaved, that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say, "How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased!"
Obviously, we see that the cherub, the king of Tyre, has the same make-up as Lucifer, the king of Babylon. The king of Tyre is said to have "tabrets and pipes", whereas the king of Babylon is said to have "music of harps". Are they one in the same? It doesn't appear so, if you look at Ezekiel 29:18 "Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare. But he and his army had no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed against it."
These fallen cherubim were both the king of Tyre and the king of Babylon (aka 'Lucifer') and are NOT the same entity, let alone Satan himself.
Compare the Angels
We can reasonably deduct that the king of Tyre and the king of Babylon (aka 'Lucifer') are cherubim (instruments built into their beings based on scripture). Is a cherub a serpent-like creature? No. Is there an angelic being that resembles a serpent? Yes; the seraphim. How about an archangel? No. Let's look up some scripture about each of these angelic beings:
Ezekiel 10:20-21 "These are the living beings that I saw beneath the God of Israel by the river Chebar; so I knew that they were cherubim. Each one had four faces and each one four wings, and beneath their wings was the form of human hands."
Cherub is the Hebrew word keruwb (ker-oob'); of uncert. der.; a cherub or imaginary figure:-cherub, [plur.] cherubim(s).
Isaiah 6:2 states, "Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew." Now, seraphim are defined as the only serpent-like creatures; however, the Bible does not state that seraphim were in the Garden of Eden.
Seraphim is the Hebrew word saraph (saw-rawf'); burning, i.e. (fig.) poisonous (serpent); spec. a saraph or symbol. creature (from their copper color):-fiery (serpent), seraph.
The word "archangel" is only used twice in the Bible: once in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, when Jesus returns with "the voice of the archangel"; the other is found in Jude 1:9 "But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!'" We also don't see an archangel in the Garden of Eden.
Archangel is the Greek word archaggelos (ar-khang'-el-os); a chief angel:-archangel.
In the Old Testament, the word angel is the Hebrew word malak (mal-awk'); from an unused root mean. to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; spec. of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):-ambassador, angel, king, messenger.
In the New Testament, the word angel is the Greek word aggelos (ang'-el-os); to bring tidings; a messenger; esp. an "angel", by impl. a pastor:-angel, messenger.
A Fallen Angel: King of Sheol (Hades/Hell/Abyss)
We read that 'Lucifer' was the king of Babylon, a fallen cherub just like the king of Tyre. The king of Tyre was in the Garden of Eden, cast out as "profane from the mountain of God". The king of Babylon (helel) was "brought down or thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of the pit". Is there a king in Sheol who is also an angelic being? YES.
Revelation 9:11 "The king who ruled them was the angel from the bottomless pit (also called the abyss). In Hebrew he is called Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon." Abbadon/Apollyon means destruction (perdition). This is the NAME of that fallen cherub, the king of Babylon! Read on!
Revelation 11:7 (Regarding the two witnesses) "And when they have finished their testimony, the beast (Antichrist) that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them."
Revelation 17:8 "The beast (Antichrist) that you saw was and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth will wonder, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come."
Earlier in Isaiah 14:13-14 we read that the king of Babylon (helel) weakened the nations and said in his heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'
Cross-reference this with the prophecies of the Antichrist to come in Daniel 7:25 "He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time."
And also cross-reference with Daniel 11:36 "Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done." If you begin reading in verse 28, you will see that Daniel is speaking of the "king of the north".
It appears now, that this 'star of the morning' is indeed a fallen angel, the king of the bottomless pit, who comes up out of that pit to be the king of end-time Babylon, the Antichrist. Lucifer was called "a man". Did angels come in the form of men in the Bible? Absolutely (Genesis 19:1, 5; Luke 24:4). We already confirmed that fallen angels are kings of the earth. In fact, if you look at the definition of the word "angel" in the previous section, you will see they are not only kings, but can be prophets, priests, teachers and pastors!
The Dragon (Satan) and 'Lucifer' (the Antichrist) cannot be the same entity. Why? Because the Antichrist and the False Prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire at the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ (Revelation 19:20). Satan, on the other hand, is bound in the bottomless pit during this reign of Christ. He is released after the millennial reign, destroyed, then cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:10).
Six Doctrinal Corrections:
So now, let's answer the following questions, based on this study:
1. Lucifer was the highest archangel in heaven.
- False. It appears he was a cherub.
2. Lucifer wanted to take over God's throne.
- True. He is the king of Babylon, the king of the north, the prophesied Antichrist in Daniel 11:36 & Isaiah 14:13.
3. Lucifer was the leader of music in heaven, as instruments were built into his very being.
- Assumed. He appears to be a cherub with musical instrument(s) built into his being. So was the king of Tyre.
4. Lucifer caused a war in heaven and was cast out with a third of the angels.
- False. The Dragon, who is the "Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan" warred in heaven and he was cast out with a third of the angels.
5. Lucifer became the Devil or Satan.
- False. Because Lucifer is the king of Babylon and the prophesied Antichrist, he is cast into the Lake of Fire at the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ; while on the other hand, Satan is bound in the pit until the end of the millennial reign.
6. Lucifer was the Serpent in the Garden of Eden.
- False. The Dragon possessed the created serpent, a beast of the field, to entice Eve into sinning. Furthermore, because the cherub placed in the Garden of Eden appears to be the king of Tyre, it is unknown as to whether Lucifer (the king of Babylon) was in the Garden of Eden at all.
The only scripture that would tie Lucifer and Satan together is found in 2 Corinthians 11:14 "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." Helel, as we saw in Isaiah 14:12 means "star of the morning". Speaking of "Antichrist", Jesus Christ is also called the "bright and morning star" in Revelation 22:16.
Truly, the LORD guised (not disguised) Himself as an angelic being (a man) to Abraham (along with the two angels that went to rescue Lot) in Genesis 18. Likewise, Satan will disguise himself as an "angel of light" (1 Cor 11:14) by empowering Abbadon/Apollyon (aka Lucifer/helel), the Antichrist (Revelation 13:2). Consider also, that Satan's servants disguise themselves as angels of light, as shown in 1 Cor 11:15 "Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."
For more information on Lucifer, I invite you to read my hub Lucifer: The spirit of Antichrist
What a great Hub...very informative and as always captivating and filled with awesome research material. Thank You for yet another "Wow Hub"...
I'm glad you debunked some of the "doctrines" about Lucifer that people just assume are true. I know you love the Lord with your whole heart and always try to use Scripture to the glory of God. You are an example of that with your love of Scripture and of God. You are an example to me my sister and I love you with my whole heart.
I have another thought to consider. I believe that Lucifer was, and is, a creation of Satan. As we look at Genesis 3 Adam and Eve were without sin "till" Satan talked Eve into being as God. Again Jesus told the Pharisees that they were of their father the devil. Again in 2 Thessilonians 2 "that Wicked one" whos working is AFTER the working of Satan. And in Isaiah 14 it calls Lucifer "a man" that caused them to fear. And as it evplains in Romans 8 the carnal man and the Spiritual man. The carnal man is created after the working of Satan where the spiritrual man is created as God through Christ. Thats what I believe.
Brother Bob (Bless you in Jesus name)
Judah's Daughter,
Interesting subject, can't expect a few postings to be exhaustive, was surprised though that Job's situation was basically ignored in your writing. In Job the meeting between good and evil seems to have been on a legal level, with the Lord being Judge, Job being defendant on trial with a heavy duty prosecuting attorney who played the dual role of police entrapment. With the question being how is it possible for evil to have access to the Lord in such a seemingly intimate way as a court room setting? Is it possible that the prosecuting attorney is someone other than who we are led to believe? And where exactly does the prosecutor of this particular case get his?
Judah's Daughter,
You bring up another good point in the story of Job and that is—who was Job. A child of God- certainly. A child of Jacob- most likely not, (if true then we can say that we have a non-Isrealite on trial for something that he did not do).
Judah's Daughter,
Your last to me is most interesting, (could go off in multiple direction but choosing to stay with Job for now).
Let us say for the sake of our discussion that you are right about Job not being on trial but only that he had "religious accusers".
In your response "religious accusers" is in the plural which leads me to think that you are identifying Jobs "friends" that appear later in Job's story. I on the other hand was responding to the subject in your original posting. So "religious accuser" from me is singular and this person appears at the beginning of Job's story.
Instead of using the term "religious accusers" would it be proper to use another term such as "adversary"? Job had an "adversary". And this "adversary", you use the term "religious accusers" may or may not be the subject of your original post. Is this something that we would want to find out? If so then we can continue our cordial discussion. If not then we can leave it. But I am interested in your original subject and not so willing to change subjects, (but I will).
Judah's Daughter,
Just wanting to be sure that I am on the same page as you are.
Depending on when the story of Job took place, it may be impossible to translate, "sons of God" in Job's story as Israelites since the story could very well predate Jacob.
I think that you have now answered my first question which was-how evil can have an intimate discussion with the Lord. And that answer is that Satan has allies. These allies (men for example) of evil seem to be able to go into God's presence in opposition to God's children.
Great Pictures! fits right in.
If angels are more spirit than physical, what makes you assume that they cannot appear in a different form?
Perhaps Lucifer took the form of a dragon for the great battle. We picture them with wings, but do they really have wings? And when they appear to people in the form of a human, maybe they're just taking our form so as not to frighten us.
You state that Satan is called the dragon, but arent you saying that Satan and the dragon are two separate beings? In your hub you mention the dragon giving Lucifer power in Revelation 13:2. Arent you making an assumption by saying that the "beast" is Lucifer? It never mentions him by name, it just says "beast."
you state that the king of babylon is lucifer which I believe to be true. Then you state he was cast down to sheol ( which is hell ). I believe if you keep in context with this being the king of baylon sheol would be translated grave. Then you state that he comes back up from that place. So the king of babylon also has the power of life to ressurect himself? Carrie what n the name of God are you spreading? This is some of the most UNscriptual stuff I have ever read in my life! I love you Carrie, so I will pray for Gods help in how I should deal with you. With love, Thaddeus Cole
I appreciate your hub and your insight. I'm gonna have to read it again to make sure I don't miss anything. I scratched the surface a little bit concerning Lucifer translating into "morning star", but just assumed Lucifer and Satan were the same entities.
Blessings for your defence of Michael the Archangel-I did notice that your comment was not accepted by the author-sadly-I had hoped he just made a mistake.
I did a brief defence of this great Archangel-if you would care to read it.
Yes,I saw it just prior to it being 'denied'-in fact I went back to it to show it to a friend -and it was gone-sadly!I actually wrote a short hub immediately afterwards in defence of Archangel Michael-on my hubsite-perhaps you could have a look-it's from perspective of Christian and R/C.I would be intereted in your valued opinion.
Great hub-and well done on defending The Great Archangel Michael.
Let me get this straight:the bible is a cover up that chages stories so people fall down the wrong path?Or religions make it that way?why does everyone try to find this infromation to confuse other people who follow the bible. I am trying to understand why people go this far to tell everyone the story in the bible is different? something is out of line,is is mankind or the bible?
Hmm, is this an uncovering of the unholy trinity? The devil, the antichrist, and the false prophet? An attempt of evil at mocking the trinity of God?
Interesting read and I will have to go back and read in better detail, but this was my first impression .. an unholy trinity.
Fantastic Hub!! Great research and pertinent information. I'm a fan.
I find you hub very interesting even though I think your hermenuetics and logic might be flawed. You say that you interpret scripture literally but that isn't the way language works, not in history books or holy scripture. If this were the case we would have to say that Jesus was a big chicken and I am sure you wouldn't want to do that. In Matthew 23 Jesus says that he wanted to gather Jerusalem the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. Now we know that Jesus has no wings, was he speaking literally? In a sense yes, he did want to gather his chosen people and in a sense no, he has no wings. There are different types of language, narrative, poetic, allegorical and poetic we must look at each in context determine which it is and make an assessment of what is being said. The bible is not a mystery and it can be understood and if 20 centuries of christians have believed that Lucifer and Satan are the same I would think they probably are.
Thanks for the loving way you address this topic. I think you made my point. Matthew 23 says "... How often I wanted to gather your children together, THE WAY a hen gathers her chicks under her wings..." If we take this literally then the only WAY Jesus could gather the children as "a hen gathers her chicks under her wings" is if he had wings. As far as Lucifer is concern I am not very interested in what the LDS say. I do think the identity of Lucifer as Satan can be proven by the use of the rhetorical literary figure of speech called metonymy. I have decided it would be to lengthy to go into here but I will write a hub on the topic and will advise you when it is posted. Again I appreciate the love of God and your fellow man that you express in your hub.
Hi, I must say I'm rarely impressed with hubs that are so literal in its interpretation of the bible. But I am with this. You cleared many good points.
To add, S-T-N is actually not a serpent. In early Hebrew pictograph it means, Sh- Fire/Destruction T- End/Covenant N-Seed.
In Hebrew, It means "Adversary Within". Each of us have a snake in our heads--biologically. It's called a reptilian brain, in charge of survival and all our primitive and selfish traits. But in Hebrew it is called the Yetzer Hara.
The evil inclination.
Fallen Angels/Stars/Light is a recurring thing in mythology across cultures because it describes the nature of evil. It is usually good that was "cast down" or rejected.
Joseph Campbell's Hero with a thousand faces will be a good reading for you, to understand deeply the lessons of the stories that you are so drawn to.
I think I missed this one for some reason. Awesome hub, you really know some stuff about God, evil and spirituality. I am honored to be a fan. God Bless!
My dear, the reptillian brain is a scientific term, another term for it is Cerebellum. It does exist. You cannot sleep, be hungry and move without it. What it does is protect you (or itself) from harm and sustain your body. It is attached to your spine and it formed before the rest of your brain did when you were a fetus. The altruistic brain is sitting on it.
But even if you have a reptile in your head, that doesn't mean you're evil. It means you have the capacity to do evil,which I am sure you agree with.
I mean no criticism, only to have a live discussion that only raises the ratings of your hub! Be well!
>>I think pagan gods are really the fallen angels disguising themselves as such, but I honestly don't know for sure.
*head desk*
There was more to my comment than this. I don't know if it got ate up, but what I said was this.
You are right about this. There, for example, appears to be evidence that Isis, Ishtar, Inanna (all pagan goddesses of sexual love, war, and sometimes fertility) along with Chemosh (a male god to whom children were sacrificed) may be one in the same as BaalPeor mentioned in the Bible.
Hosea 9:10 - 10I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
Psalm 106:28 -They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead.
and also read Numbers chapter 25.
Well, it may also be important to know that the pantheons of the heathen nations were all these huge families of different gods and goddesses.
The offspring of the fallen angels and mortal women are called not only the Nephilim, but also the demigods.
If you're interested I have a hub called "Sons of Nephilim is NOT a Hoax" which explains this in tad more detail.
amen. i continue to enjoy your writing whether i believe it or not. in this case i must say you very nearly have me convinced. to some people if you were to tell them that lucifer wasn't the devil they would feel as if they have been lied to their entire lives. but the way you interprete things makes it seem as if its ok that lucifer isn't the devil and that what i believe is wrong. i feel as if this is possible and its ok if is. yet on another note im still not fully convinced and i wish i could speak to more of the spiritual people i know(such as my father, although i currently wouldn't be able to talk to him) in kansas. until i read more of what u have to say and talk to more people about the subject i wont be able to change my original idea. but let it be known i am already almost absolutely shaking of the old idea of lucifer being the devil as i read this. so although this subject is clearly open to debat by me, i commend you and congradulate you(for now...
lol i cant wait to compile my argument together(If there is one) and debate you. i know its gonna be fun.
lol amen.
lol im glad i finally check my email to see that i had gotten a message
Great stuff!
Well, Carrie, I have read your hub and all the comments. I believe you are very sincere in your beliefs and that some of your commentators are merely trying to pick the Bible to pieces and you could never give them a good enough answer.
The Bible is a book that must be taken on faith! From the beginning to the end. There is no deception here. From Abraham who left the home of his fathers on God's commend stepped out by faith, down to the early Christian believers. Read Hebrews 11.
One other thing. Satan, Lucifer, the devil, or whatever you call him is not a God.
Read Isaiah 44: 6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
I enjoy reading your work and You are very zealous for your beliefs! Keep it up!
I don't like to use the word god in reference to the devil or any other god. God warned his people against Idol worship, and you are right. That is what it is. Blessings!
Judah's Daughter Wowzer, Fantastic writing, research and truth sister. I know Christ smiles on you. You have put so much work into showing Christ and the truth of the living word. You are a gift to hub pages and all that read you. My prayer is many more will land on your writings that are heartfelt, inspiring and Holy Spirit Breathed. Awesome work JD. I love you and pray you will be richly Blessed. I am so grateful our paths crossed. Did you read my 'Scented Oil"
If you get a chance. chapter one and two. Hugs sister.
Keep on sister, we have much work to do. Jesus is going to return. Yes and Yes + + +
Wow! Sister JD! You have given me much to ponder, study and pray about!
I will enjoy reading your related hubs in this matter!
There is so much truth to "absorb" from God's Holy Word--I appreciate you pointing me in this direction, and I will do further study on this, as I feel in my heart the Truth in your research!
Do not be distracted by naysayers my Sister, just continue to walk in truth, and preach what the Lord places in your heart, for it is a Divine compass to powerfully guide you! The Holy Spirit is the Spiritual magnetic field that keeps your compass on track.
Thank you for the edification today! =)
Satan is no king of babylon nor tyre
Satan was born a lier because he movvited the most atrocious crime, trying to over through God.
Those were the desiers of his heart.
God gives all of his intelligent creatures free will hence, 1/3 of teh angels rebelled against him
Dragon is not used by its denotation in the Bible, but by its connotation (when referring to Lucifer turned Satan)
Are you saying that there was no Satan before the King of Babylon of Tyre, before Eve and Adam?
If Satan is or was an Earthly Kin, a man, then how could he have tempted teh first 2 humans?
To say the lier in the garden wasn't Satan is saying that there is this other damndable evil out there before an "Earthly born Devil"
I don't mean to sound angry it's just I get so passionate about the word of God, of which I can see you do as well. I rally don't mean to offend anyone with hot words, it's just, I was taught the read the word for yourself so you may recognize and judge for yourself. I can see that you have studied deep into this and I respect you greatly for that. I just have to remind myself to keep a cool yet sharp mind and show my faith and wisdom in a Christ Like manner.
Hello JD,
Something you might find interesting. In the book of Revelation it mentions four spiritual beasts surrounding the throne of God.
Revelation 4:6-7
6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
Since Revelation is full of symbology we can safely assume that John did not see a literal lion with eyes all over, or a calf, or a man, or an eagle with eyes all over them.
In the Bible the Hebrew and Greek words for the different animals often always have another meaning.
Lion/Leon - A lion, or a brave and mighty warrior
Calf/moschos - A calf, or an offspring of an animal or man. Can also mean 'fresh and tender'
Man/anthropos - a human. Quite possibly this is the spiritual man.
Eagle/aetos - an eagle, said to also be the standard of the Roman Military. It's possible that the spiritual eagle is another warrior just like the lion is.
(sidenote: In the book of Enoch there is mention of 4 angels surrounding the throne of God. They seem to be doing the same thing as the 4 beasts of Revelation. I remember only two of them, but it would appear that Michael was/is the lion, while Gabriel was/is the man (spiritual))
Alright, now onto the serpent. You said that Satan possessed the serpent. This I disagree with because serpent in Hebrew is 'nachash' which means 'one who practices divination, one who enchants, one who observes signs and omens'
There's no denying that what Satan did to Eve was to enchant her, and beguile her. So, in other words, Satan didn't possess the serpent; Satan was/is the spiritual serpent.
And isn't it also amazing how satan is considered to be a great enchanter/magician/sorcerer, and we are commanded not to practice these things?
Thank you for an extremely informative article. First and foremost I was raised a Hindu have not, in any way, forsaken this. I do not, however, believe that my religion is the only true religion. In fact, while growing up I have come to appreciate the good in all religions. I love reading articles and scriptures of the various religions inorder to better understand them. I believe that to criticise another's religion and assume their beliefs are great travesties. I throughly enjoyed the research and honesty you convey in your article and believe that more believers should be like you.
There is a quote that I would love to share with you as I think that you greatly exemplify.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them." - Galileo Galilei
hi, this is a good thing that you posted up. =] and well, i really think that the devil is actually or was actually Lucifer. Satan is still the most powerful and probably still the most beautiful angel in the universe. Listen to the warning that Jude (the brother of Jesus) gives:
In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!' Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand.... Jude 1:8-10
Satan - who is also called the Father of lies - lies about who he really is. He puts on a "godly angel" disguise, then uses it to attack us. In other words, if you met Satan today, you might be fooled that he was an angel sent straight from the throne of God.
Firstly, interesting article which I enjoyed reading, but I do have a question. In Isaiah 14:11-17, it says Lucifer was thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of the pit, yet it also says he was cut down to the earth just like the dragon(Satan). How do you explain this??
Hey, I think the devil is leviathan, and leviathan is infact an angel. God created the heavens and the stars. The stars as in angels. I don't think the devil was created after the angels. Also Jesus said he saw the devil fall from the sky like lightning. It's pretty obvious that satan is an angel, and he looks like a serpant angel.
Angels can have tails. Remember that angels are not humans. If the devil is not an angel, then he must be a leviathan then. But revelation says that the dragon comes from the sky, but leviathan comes from the sea! Also who is the false prophet? What is his identity? an angel? And what happened to the King of Tyre? he just got owned by Abbadon and goes back to hell?
So the devil is after all a huge spiritual dragon then!? This is our adversary? A huge dragon? And can you touch more about the false prophet. If Satan is a dragon, the anti-Christ is a fallen Cherub, what is the false prophet? Perhaps he is another fallen angel? Perhaps the false prophet is behemoth?
Book of Enouch says that Leviathan(the devil) is a female, and behemoth, is a male, can u touch on that as well.
I have so many questions to ask, and a guy like u can enlighten me with the knowledge!!! Intresting to talk with u. Thanks for the replies and keep doing so....
Ummm I dont think that the behemoth and the leviathan are dinosaurs. isiah prophesized that Jesus would chase leviathan with a sword! And I don't think dinosaurs can breathe fire and have smoke coming out of their nostrils. Anyways Enoch should not be taken into account because it is not the word of God. From what I've discussed with you, it seems that the devil is leviathan. He is a monstrous dragon afterall. The Anti-Christ is a fallen Cherub, and the False-prophet is a man. Who or what is behemoth anyways?
After reading an article about the leviathan, I found that the Leviathan might be aligned with the T-Rex. But God said that he would slay the leviathan.... im confused.
sighhhhh... but i dont get it. Jesus is going to slay the leviathan, yet leviathan is a T-rex, what does that mean? There are many holes to this theory, so perhaps Lucifer is the Devil after all.
SO basically Lucifer isn't the devil correct? wait so is the story of lucifer bieng the most beautiful angel then because of his pride and ego rebelled against God and his angels is that story true if so where does the dragon(satan) come from what are his origins was he born evil if so why did God create him if he was evil (not trying to sound blasphemous by questioning God but im just confused) Was the dragon an angel aswell and maybe Lucifer became the devil after his fall from grace and because God is no longer with him he became disfigured lost his beauty and became a dragon out of his pride and rage and became the king of Babylon to attack Gods people (just a theory sorry if this is a long run on question God Bless)
Thanks alot Now I know though I prefer the other story that we've all been told because I like the plot better (yea I know its false but I just like it better sounds more epic its just my opinion) and quick question I know angels have rankings sorta like the military archangels cherubs etc dom demons have the same. I was told demons and devils are not the same devils are fallen angels the angels that fell from heaven while demons are just the spawns and children of devils like imps and fiends ( i know its off topic and kinda weird but angels and demons heaven and hell is just so fascinating to me ) Again thanks for this know I know the truth
Hi JD. You stated "The story of Lucifer being a beautiful angel that rebelled against God in heaven, was cast out with a third of the angels, then became the devil (aka Satan) does not appear to be based on the Bible.". Good this is a false doctrine that still pervades the church. However, fallen angels doctrine doesn't show up until the apocryphal Book of Enoch.
You also state "Satan is never called an angel anywhere in the Bible" Numbers 22:22, the Angel of the Lord is sent as a satan to Balaam. Satan is simply Hebrew for adversary and applies both to angels and men such as David for example.
The Book of Enoch is not considered of sufficient merit to even appear in the Catholic apocrypha, and the only branch of the church that deems it of any value is the Ethiopian Orthodox. Even there, they believe it was written in the Ethiopian Ge'ez language, because thatis the only full copy remaining.
Whatever flavour church you choose to belong to, apocryphal works are to be considered of secondary purpose and NO doctrines are to be established from them, which is what you appear to be doing above. The Book of Enoch is not inspired by God; it is a human invention.
Hi Judah's Daughter :)
I should have read this before, but I didn't want it to influence my hub.
It is really interesting. I like all of the synthesis. It is very thought-provoking!
Certainly it is a fascinating topic.
I've heard some weird stuff but come on! What about scripture! You've read to many hal lindsey books!
I'm not very religious but I was always curious of the full story of the War in Heaven and the fall of Satan as well as curious as to the different names and if they where an entity being one and the same, just having a name change every now and again mixed in with various other religious views on similar entities (as they say most of the time in movies). But thank you for making the distinction between who's who and especially all the verse research from the bible. It was certainly very informative and interesting.
HI. Very interesting read and very informative. My question is did God create The Dragon (Satan) and 'Lucifer' (the Antichrist). And if he did then why? Surely it would be silly for him to make these creatures if he knew they would cause so many problems for him and for mankind.
Thank you very much for your article :)
Thanks very much for that response. I would just like to say that i was not trying to question God or anything, i was just curious. Excellent answer and after reading your "Satan's purpose" Hub i understand a lot more.Please keep writing these types of Hubs because as humans we all have questions and it is great when someone like you can provide such detailed answers. Thanks again :)
What a terrific piece of teaching you formed here. This is fashioned to be used over and over again. I am thankful you wrote this. God Bless.
I am not sure where the Dragon came from? Was the Dragon an Angel? Where did he come from also? I always thought that one of God's angels rebelled against him with the other angels and not some dragon.....
Please help me understand.
Very interesting article btw :)
Thanks for the reply.
If the Dragon was not an angel then how did he/it influence those other angels in heaven and get them to rebel against God?
Rev 12:8: "But he(the dragon) was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down(from heaven to earth)."
Doesn't this show that the "dragon" had to have been an angel at first otherwise how else could he have been in heaven with God and the other angels? If he was not an angel in heaven then that means he must have some how gotten into heaven to be able to wage war against Michael and the "good" angels.....
I still don't understand why God would create the dragon or create an angel who would become the dragon?
Well said, JD!
Satan, dragon/serpent, lucifer are not the same.
Also, for those interested, note in the garden how Creator says to the serpent: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between ---your offspring--- and hers.
Also, remember Moses has a Serpent on the top of his staff. Same staff that struck the rock. It is also said that the Law was the serpent, as it poisoned the minds of man to live by sin. for with the law comes the ---knowledge--- of sin.
lucim ferre (aka lucifer) is determined as a message or one who delivers the message.
satan is one who opposes or veers one off course, divert, adverse to, blocks the path of.
none of these are creatures by their metaphors, save one thing -they all suggest highly that they are of human seed, with very interesting characters -like music or strong speaking voices, etc.
Voted up!
This is like listening to children argue...........
Major Demons and their sins:-
These are the 7 heads of the "Dragon" .........
Can You name the coming 8th?
You are well read and love your subjects, i find books to be contradictory and tend to read between the lines.
Being christian [not allways as good as i could] i must be carefull what i say about the Bible but i'm of the oppinion every book ever wrote on these subjects takes information from the Bible and interpretations of it differ through the ages.
I will visit you on another subject JD
Yes your right about the bible, us christians must take it word for word, i try to but know people and think some of it is missing or alterd, bad of me to say i know but then i also know [some] of the Devils ways and he would love to twist it if he could and he's had long enough.
I'm gona stop there, i dont even want to think about it and my christian mentor Dr Charles Stanley says much the same as you that we must belive every word so i try, my personality works on what feels right and the Lord guides that for me.
God bless you JD...
Amen to that......
I will read both parts of that hub in the next few days.
I'm not partiqularly good at reading and tend to skip across as you have noticed before, i have'nt even read the bible right through nore do i understand what you mean by tithing [Dr Stanley]
My tallents are with the feel of everything, i knew about the bible as soon as i touched it.
Thank you.....Aaahh money, yes i've heard Dr Stanley mention 10% before, very clever and i've seen pictures of he's ministry.
Well mammon is the most powerfull of them all now days.
I'm from Essex in England so i only get him on Premier christian radio BUT he has saved many lifes around my way with he's 'In Touch' half hour and most of all MY TESTIMONY......read in that what you will, God spoke to me through him when i was about ready to fall and pulled me back from 15 years of playing with the Devil, now i listen to him 30 minuets an evening, i'm not a church goer but love thoes that do.
God bless you JD....
GREAT read! Wonderful,in-depth food for thought. Keep up the great work.
This is an excellent Hub, well researched and beautifully presented.
Thank you for your comments on my Hub on this subject.
You people all need to read the bible some more.
you shouldn't take or make any images.
truth is one of the keys, especially in reading.
Did the almighty creator of this universe write these words in this book or did men? men in council? church officials?
the religions started out from a form of zoroastrianism, from the north of mesopotamia, then mesopotamia. then spread out east and west and north and south,
then there was an ahriman from ur.
abram, abraham, from ur. etc, etc down the line of the kings list writen throughout the book.
VHVH,YHVH,IHVH, however you spell it its also pictographs of a so called holy name from which you are to derive the name of "GOD", yet not speak it.
what above so below... H= air above, H... earth below
/\or V, or Y (rod with fire), or I( arrons rod)= Fire
V=water, cup filled with water, its why wwww water www still looks like waves of water.
the Ur or err, error is that you all are picturing a figure of a god, angles, demons, devils.
the god exist only in the words of this book of clever writings, grammar, expression.
The Sword of moses is the word, i.e. the alaph-beit(in hebrew), alphabet (in english), Alpha-omega (of the greek alpha-beta).
-an education, the people were educated,
people its a book of education, numbers are assigned to letters in hebrew, greek, and even english.
Angles and diamonds form words if you tabletise the different alphabets,- the angles and daemons.
theres also triangles, squares, circles, swirls, arches/angles, etc.
the math forms words in the gematria.
theres division, multiplication, addition, subtraction.
theres chemistry, or old alchemy.
are you afraid of words?
dumb fuckin sheep, the churchs thankyou for you money you worked hard for, the goverments also.
Just one of versions, quite informative though. But nobody can know the truth. After all I am partly agree with author. To my mind, Lucifer was just the Babylon king, not an angel or demon.
You have an excellent way of explaining things. I too was always taught that satan and Lucifer were the same and never thought to question it until now. It's definitely something I'll have to study on. Thank you for the read.
In Ezekiel 28,God condemns the satanic spirit in king of tyre.Satan aka Heylel aka Lucifer is a spirit.All angels are spirit beings,who can transform into any appearance.His origins are depicted in Ezekiel 28.It's not about King of Tyre,but the satanic spirit that possessed him.Scriptures also say angels mated with human women before Noah's flood and perhaps after that in genesis 6:4.The childeren born to these matings where the source of ancient mythologies like hindu,greek etc along with the flood at Noah's time(Ma-nu & saptarshi-which means great noah and seven saints & how they were saved from a great flood on a ship/boat is a part of hindu mythology.
Ezekiel 28:14-15 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
These verses make it clear that satanic spirit in the king of tyre was created as an angel cherub,and he was perfect in his ways,until sin was found in him and he was thrown down from heaven as Isiah 4:12 says.
You exactly said the point,when you said that lucifer in Isiah is not found in the garden as the "cherub" in ezekiel 28.But we see satan in Garden of Eden in Genesis.Couldn't all 3 be the same,which is the only logical conclusion when whole of the scriptures are taken into account.You need to see the bigger picture,which is God judging satan to eternal hell fire in revelation 20:10.If satan was created with sin as you claim,then what is the point/justification in God casting him to eternal hell?It will also say that God created sin to tempt mankind,if we base ourself on your claim.That will make God unjust.So if you can address these bigger "issues" with sound reasoning then only you can prove yourself.God bless you.
You yourself said both isiah & ezekiel 28 is about Lucifer the cherub.How can King of tyre be in Eden,can you prove it,by scriptures?No you never will.
But we know who was in the garden of eden-It was satan,so we understand clearly that satan/lucifer/heylel are the same person -the ancient cherub who sinned by his pride.If you find this age old christian doctrine unsound,then you may ask an orthodox Jewish Rabbi,who will give you the same answer.
So are you saying lucifer in isiah is not the cherub of Ezekiel28?
You said this-if we look at Isaiah 14:12 it appears this one (the king of Babylon - his 'spirit' within) fell from the heavens, because it tells us he was cast down to the 'earth'. If we take this literally, this would point to him being a fallen angel.
So isn't the 'spirit within' this king of babylon, the fallen angel which michael and his angels defeated & threw down from heaven in revelations 12?
You said ezekiel28,speaks of cherub,why can't this be lucifer?Any conclusive evidence ,rather than assumptions that contradict rest of the scriptures?
Why can't the spirit within king of babylon(isiah) be the fallen angel of revelation 12,why can't it be satan?Any conclusive evidence rather than false assumptions that contradict rest of scriptures?
How do you define justice of tormenting sin in eternal hell fire after directly creating it?
People of comments, Stop!!! Listen to yourselves for a minute. Now I get the fact that God created all things Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, created darkness. I make peace, and create evil. I the lord do all these things. However, we must take into consideration, that a sin is a sin. Whether it's murder, rape, stealing, hate,false gods, fornication, adultery, blasphemy. Know matter what form or shape it represent itself, it is a sin. The same goes for Lucifer, Satan, Devil, Dragon, Serpent and Beelzebub who is the prince of the devils. read Mark3:22. They are all the same and have the same objective. read Mark 3:23 Jesus said , How can Satan cast out Satan. v24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand. v26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he can not stand, but hath an end. Jesus called him Satan read Luke 10:18 I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Satan was from the beginning of creation, before the fall of man, and that Jesus was made already for our Salvation. Listen.. Is not the Father, Son, Holy Ghost the same ? (Yes) Is not not, I am, Alpha & Omega, Immanuel, Jehovah the same(Yes) Why? Because it is for righteousness and will not divide against itself.
Is not Jesus... God?
Some where in the introduction you stated that Lucifer can not be the same entity as Satan himself. (I do not understand). Could you enlighten me on where did they come from, and if in fact they are not from the same entity as you claimed.( the word entity means real being, reality, existence, a material substance). Who is Lucifer? And why you claim he is the antichrist. Where in scripture, that support that he Lucifer indeed is the antichrist. Whether Satan is Satan, Lucifer is Lucifer, Serpent is Serpent, Beelzebub is Beelzebub it's all going to hell in the lake of fire. The kingdom of evil.
If I walked out to my back yard, to see the beautiful landscape and the fresh cut grass. I would examine it to be perfect. Even though the word of God, said he created all things, he create evil. Whether it was Lucifer or Satan, took it upon itself to examine it and excepted it in the desire of it perfect being. Even by back yard as perfect as it may be have holes in it. Only if I desire to take a shove and dig.
Thank You for Listen.
I said to all Repent and accept Jesus as your Savior.
God Bless.
I completely agree with what famousJames said.If Evil was directly created by God as this hub states,then "justice" of God has no meaning.So "judah's daughter" it would be wise to reconsider your understanding of the subject.God bless you.
No that is certainly not what i meant.What he said you very well know and understand.
God didn't create any package for destruction according to scriptures.He created satan as an angel -cherub with specific purpose.But satan and 1/3rd of angels fell from their glory because of pride.That is why pride filled hearts are still unable to find God.
@judah's daughter-while i appreciate your straightforward attitude,it's not good for a believer to be rigid in his or her views.We must always be open to new ideas,if it's in tune with scriptures.
John8:44-use the phrase "from the beginning" in the sense that from the beginning of mankind.Which means when in the beginning of humanity,in garden of eden-satan who came as the serpent had already fell from his glorius position as an angel.God further judges him in genesis3:15 after he decieves Adam and Eve,which sealed his fate forever(that Jesus the son of Mary will destroy the head of satan's offspring-antichrist/beast,which happened on the cross and will be visible in the physical world in the coming delusion and wrath period).
@judah's daughter- you said "satan was cast out of heaven for embodying the serpent"?Why should God do that?By saying this you have contradicted your own assumptions,because before casting out of heaven satan should have been sinless,Amen?
God bless you,although i donot agree with you.Let God who see and know all things be the judge.
I enjoyed your essay on lucifer. As I read thru the Bible the first time last year I came to this same conclusion. And came to understand the importance of not just looking at a verse but looking at the surrounding verses, then the surrounding chapters to understand the context. God bless.
um...ok. How did you come to that conclusion?
No, I've seen plenty of Anti-Mormon stuff slandered across the internet. I just want a general response of how you figured such. Was it family? TV? Internet? Preacher?
Hi I know this hub is a bit old but who exactly is the dragon that went into heaven? For some reason I believe Samael is the dragon.. But I don't know since he is an angel of god who went to oversee hell, correct? I'm pretty confused on who the dragon is and who exactly samael is I'm believing he is the angel of death that's in gods grace but I'm not sure.. Do you know anything about this? Because you answered my question about this topic.
Oh and I read somewhere that Samael is also in the garden if Eden and tempted eve to eat the apple?
It seems there is very little room to question whether Lucifer and Satan are the same entity, yet I think the similarities are all too striking to abandon (discount) that they are one and the same being. Much of the controversy here seems more of differences of opinion about how to translate the Hebrew word "heylel" or "HYLL" which, whether "Lucifer" is "catholic" inspired, doesn't hold a lot of weight historically. However "HYLL" was translated over the same way by Hebrew linguists of KJV translators as correct from the textus receptus and comparisons to MANY other TR Western European language translations such as one, the Geneva Bible.
Jerome's translation of the OT, made directly from the Hebrew text of his day, and dating to ca. A.D. 400, it translates "HYLL" in Isaiah 14:12, as "lucifer." Cassell's Latin dictionary identifies this word as an "adjective", meaning "light-bearing, light-bringing."
William Smith's Smaller Classical Dictionary notes that "Lucifer" (Latin) and "Phosphoros" (Greek) are both "epithets" given the planet "Venus" in antiquity, along with a few other designations. "Lucifer" was also used as a designation in mythology of several goddesses of light, including Artemis, Aurora, and Hecate, and others.
If Jerome intended "lucifer" here to be a "proper name", ordinary Latin usage in his day (ca. A.D. 400) might suggest that he was simply thereby signifying the planet "Venus", but evidence from his own writings (in the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VI) indicates he interpreted Isaiah 14:12 as referring to "Satan's fall", and thereby, apparently, meant Lucifer as a "designation" of the "Devil". Those who insist on retaining "lucifer" from the Vulgate in the English Bible are simply in essence affirming or re-affirming Jerome's interpretation of that text, and the accuracy of the Latin Vulgate version. I tend to agree with this finding and makes more sense being historically and linguistically accurate of "Lucifer" rather than some devious, "catholic", rendering to deceive us.
Jerome's use of "lucifer" to translate HYLL had a strong influence on Bible translations into the many languages of Western Europe, BEFORE the English KJV, meaning godly scholars throughout that region of Europe concurred with Jerome's rendering. According to the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) under the entry "lucifer," all English Bibles from Wycliffe (ca. 1384; his version was based directly on the Vulgate) to the KJV had "Lucifer" at Isaiah 14:12, apparently as a proper name, though possibly as a borrowed Latin adjective. This is hard evidence for the use "Lucifer" as divinely intended in my opinion.
I believe many times the Lord speaks about subjects and people using metaphors more often than people realize. If you will notice Ezekiel 28 there is something interesting in regard to this 'Babylonian' ruler that I have not seen addressed in any of the comments. Instead of starting in verse 12, go back all the way to verse 1. "The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, say unto the PRINCE of Tyrus.".. I stop here to point out the differences here between vs. 1-2 and vs. 12. First, these are 2 different visions; the first vision the Lord tells Ezekiel to address the "Prince" of Tyrus in vs. 1-2 and goes on to describe an individual who makes himself "a God" and sits in the "seat of God", but the Lord said, "..yet thou art a man". From this point on this vision shows the "fall" of this PRINCE and the destruction he suffers through the "strangers" the "terrible of the nations". This is the first of 2 visions in chapter 28 seen by Ezekiel a contemporary of Daniel. You will also note vs. 11 the 2nd vision begins with a prophecy of lamentation for the "KING" of Tyrus which begins in verse 12. The Lord here is clearly addressing a different beings with obvious attributes far above the previous "prince" in the first vision. These attributes are of a supernatural nature beyond mere human potential. "Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty" vs. 12. This "KING" (not the "prince") was in "EDEN" and was a "cherub" fell because of pride "by reason of thy brightness". (This begins to sound more and more like Isaiah 14:12-16 of "Lucifer". My point is the Lord is using human "princes" as types of the "KING" . If "Lucifer" of Isaiah 14:12 be a mere human, than he is a type of SATAN. Ezekiel gives further descriptions and attributes no mere human could possibly posses. Jesus saw the "fall from heaven" of "SATAN" Luke 10:18 and the "fall from heaven" of "Lucifer" Isaiah 14:12. There is only ONE central figure of note which "fell from heaven" because of pride of his "brightness" that the scriptures identify, whether a type ("Lucifer") or real, and that is SATAN. I see no difference between them, all pointing to the same being, and far less confusing in this view.
As regards the identity of the "morning-star" (so translated) of Isaiah 14:12: if indeed it is correctly identified as Satan addressed through the person of the king of Babylon (whoever that historic individual was it is debated.), it is no legitimate objection that the term "morning-star" is also a title of Christ (as indeed it is, Revelation 22:16). It is to be noted that the term "lion" is one also applied in Scripture to both Satan (I Peter 5:8) and Jesus (Revelation 5:5). As with "lion," so with "morning star," the terms are metaphors used to characterize the individuals in question, and it is not unsuitable to use both descriptive metaphors for radically differing individuals.
Read my post again--I am trying to find out where I said the "prince" and the "king" of Tyre were both the same entity; satan.(??) Do you know what a "type" is? I believe I said that, right ? Also, Satan is referred to, at least in rank, as an "angel of light" as his ministers are "ministers of righteousness". 2 Cor. 11: 11-15 . Another point, God gives proper names to individuals with built-in "adjectives" and compound terms that describe many times the character or work of the person named. Since you say "lucifer" is "not in scripture" that tells me you have rejected all translations from Tydale's work to the Authorized version, 1611 over 300 years of translating of the majority text into the languages of Europe. That's pretty bold.
Have a nice eternity--
Was Satan an Angel? You began your 'analysis' not with scripture, but with a rant towards another Hub editor who proposes that Michael "started the war in heaven" with the "dragon" in heaven in Revelation 12. Obviously that Hub editor is mistaken, yet you seem to use his 'error' as a springboard to launch your 'evidence' that Satan is never mentioned as an 'angel' in this portion of scripture. Basing a hypothesis on "what the Bible does not say" in a 'single verse' is weak ground initially because doctrinal truth can only be based upon 'everything' the Bible says on the subject (1Cor. 14:32) Also see: Isaiah 28: 9-10. What you have postulated from this 'one scripture' using "evidence of absence" cannot be logically proven on the basis of the Bibles method of interpretation, period.
Let me also postulate using "what the Bible does not say" about Revelation 12. You will note that "it never states" that Michael "is an angel" either in this scripture. Michael and his angels fought against the "dragon" (Satan) and his angels". So we are on equal ground of proof employing only the "evidence of absence" in 'one verse' for both the "dragon" and Michael as being "angels". Both have angels and both are never identified with being "angel". (Contrary to your 'claim' both the "dragon" (Satan) and Michael are called ἄγγελος (angels) in scripture: 2Cor. 11:14 and Jude 1:9)
Next, you try to prove the "dragon" (satan) of Revelation 12 is the same as the "serpent" from creation in Genesis 3:1. Simply stated, you boldly announce that the "serpent" (the animal) IS the DRAGON of Revelation 12! The evidence? Again, you incorporate "evidence of absence" as a measuring stick and referred back to Revelation 12! "What we don't see here is any inclination that Satan was an archangel by the name of Lucifer. In fact, Satan is never said to have been an angel "from the beginning".(False 2Cor 11:14) (evidence of absence)
What you have failed to do is use God's method of interpretation. You furthermore ignore the obvious question--how do you make the connection between the 'animal/serpent' in the garden with the "dragon" (Satan) Revelation 12? The "serpent" is a physically created 'animal' "beast (Hebrew "chay" living raw FLESH) of the field" Genesis 3:1 (the serpent, by the way, DIED like all beasts of the field after the fall of Adam) the other a "spiritual" entity cast out of Heaven! You fail to make any connection. (This reminds me of the J.W. doctrine that physical bodied Jesus died and is forever dead--but a "spirit being" called "the christ" appears in heaven in his place; A denial of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ).
Next, you quote John 8:44. (What you are trying to prove here I do not know exactly as you don't explain)--I perceive an intention to link the "devil" as a murderer from the "beginning" the "serpent". The only "murder" committed at the beginning was Cain slaying Abel Genesis 4:8. The beast (chay raw FLESH) "serpent" is nowhere present, but it was Cain that "murdered" Abel. The "seed of the serpent" came through ADAM to his sons--Rom 5:12. The fallen nature of man came through ADAM not the "serpent"--The "seed of the serpent" is the "spirit of unbelief" in all of us until we are saved by FAITH in God's GRACE.
"These fallen cherubim were both the king of Tyre and the king of Babylon (aka 'Lucifer') and are NOT the same entity, let alone Satan himself."
So, are you saying these "KINGS" are "types" of fallen angels? If they are "types" of fallen angels--WHICH ANGELS? Who has desired to be worshipped as GOD and he gets that chance during the tribulation hour, and even tempted the Lord Jesus in the wilderness to worship him Mat.4:9-10. There is only ONE wicked spiritual being who has the desire and AUTHORITY to be worshipped "like the most high" EL' ELYON
"S A T A N". Your research is very flawed and out of sync with the bulk of scripture on this subject. The problem you have created by this is that you have "fallen angels" wanting to unseat God and be GOD, plus you have SATAN grasping to do the same! Don't you see the conflicting arrangement here and lack continuity? Satan is in charge of "HIS ANGELS". None of these wicked followers dare challenge SATAN for preeminence. Even the "archangel" Michael "durst not bring a railing accusation" against SATAN. (Jude 1:9)
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." - Ephesians 6 :12.
This scripture proves there is always a "spiritual" power behind every "temporal" power. That spiritual power behind the temporal one is clearly portrayed when Satan tempted the Lord Jesus with ALL the kingdoms of the earth and the GLORY of them in Matthew 4:4-10. Satan is in control of the ungodly kingdoms and nations on this earth. Jesus never challenged Satan with that claim. His draconian rule of planet earth continues until will continue until Revelation 11:15 when .."the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ." With this TRUTH in view, lets analyze Ezekiel 28 in the light of Mat.4:8-10
In Ezekiel 28 we find in the beginning of the chapter, Ezekiel is instructed to speak to the "prince" of Tyrus ; the "prince" is the temporal authority. Then in verse 11... Things suddenly change. God tells Ezekiel to speak to the "king" of Tyrus, the spiritual power behind the temporal.
According Mat. 4:8-10 who the "spiritual" controller of Tyrus? Answer: SATAN
The temporal "ruler" of Tyrus is the "PRINCE" ( נגד נגיד a commander) of Tyrus according to Ezekiel 28:1-2
By simple deduction, and rightly dividing the God's Word the "KING" ( מלך royal, supreme potentate) of Tyrus is SATAN.
More proof:
When was the last time God referred to a "human" as a cherub (verse 14), or what human was alive and in the garden of Eden other than Adam and Eve (verse 13)?
It can be none other than Lucifer/SATAN!
"Satan is NEVER called an angel in the Scripture. All names are proper nouns, not adjectives. And Jesus is both Prince and KING."
This above is a flat out FALSEHOOD! and you know it!
2Cor 11:14
Jesus Christ is "Prince of Peace" and He is "KING OF THE JEWS" He is many things--but NOT a "prince" of a nation and King also of that same nation. I say you need to REPENT.
"You quoted 2 Cor. 11: 11-15. If we know Satan's servants do as he does, then why do you question how fallen angels could desire power, not only in the heavens but here on earth?"
There are many things that satan wickedly does; yet according to scripture satan with his tail "drew a third part of the stars in heaven" Rev. 12:4 and the record shows that satan's ultimate plan is his total "worship". This is the ultimate slap in the face of God and if he can get the whole world to do it he has won. But God always has a "living" remnant on his side. Satan's gaul and tenacity even led him to tempt the Son of God to "worship me" (him) He wants total preeminence over the creation of God and obliteration of the commandment of God: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." ; and that is a biblical fact. (Mat. 4:8-10) Satan's angels are commissioned to carry out "his" plan. You cannot tell me satan is going to allow one of "his angels" to usurp his plan by getting attention away from him for one second? Every time man in pride wants worship, God brings him down. (Prov. 16:18). This is why I object to your "teachings" on this subject.
Unwittingly, you are diminishing the awareness of satan's tactical plan to be omnipotent, giving his angels a place in scripture that are designations only to satan. Whether the angels, as you stated, "could desire power" is irrelevant. The evidence proves satan has the allegiance and control of his troops. There is no other usurper of the very throne of God in Heaven but satan alone. Isaiah 14:12-20 is a designation to satan's assault to that very throne of God in Heaven. The description of the "light bringer" (Latin Lucifer), in spite of your "teaching" to destroy any idea this is a satanic designation, is beyond doubt satan's tactical advance to the throne of God in Heaven. His desire to "ascend into heaven (3rd heaven) and set up a throne there "on the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north".. above the clouds and the stars of God. This can only be a satanic designation.
I also see another dangerous pattern in your "teaching"; that is your attitude toward God's revelation in the Word the God. You are pushing the modern versions which have shown to be corrupted with some 60,000 words omitted from the majority text while "catholicizing" any version that is using the Latin redition "lucifer" in Isaiah 14. Your distain for "lucifer" casts doubt on the whole of scripture in any translation containing it. This is sets dangerous precedence over God's preservation of His words into the English language.
Furthermore, 2 Cor 11:14 states that Satan is 'disguised' or is 'transformed into' an angel. If he already IS an angel, he need not disguise himself or transform himself into one."
Take another careful look at this scripture but in the context with verse 15. This scripture does not say he was transformed into an angel! (That is what you said above) ; There is no deception or "marvel" in him as being an "angel"; it is when he puts on the disguise of "LIGHT" as an "angel of God"! "…God is LIGHT and in him is no darkness at all". 1John 1:5. John 1:7-8 states that the Lord Jesus is the "LIGHT" that John the Baptist came to bear witness of. .Jesus called "himself" the "LIGHT" of the World". More proof: Verse 15 states …"it is no great thing that HIS MINISTERS are transformed into MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS". Notice: they did not become "ministers" when they are transformed; they were already "HIS ministers"; it was when those "ministers" put on the disguise of "righteousness" as "ministers of the Gospel" that Paul is warning about!
Again, the description of the "light bringer" (Latin Lucifer), in Isaiah 14: 12, in spite of your "teaching" to destroy any idea this is a "satanic" designation, is beyond doubt satan's tactical advance to the throne of God in "Heaven". That "spiritual battle" in Heaven failed. In the physical world, he can only possess (take bodily control) of beasts and human agents carry out his "plan". This is his only channel left to get his day of worship. Yes, he will possess a person called the "man of sin" as he did Judas, but only to the end, the world will worship "HIM" and further that plan. "And they WORSHIPPED THE DRAGON which gave power to the beast: and they WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, saying, who is like unto the beast?.." (Rev. 13:4) Satan possesses a "man" that in turn causes the unsaved to worship HIM, (satan) plus the unsaved worship the "man" whom satan has possessed. That gives satan the best of both worlds; the spiritual and the physical. Both ways SATAN is worshipped. Satan has not, and WILL NOT share his desired position with another angel. (I never said satan was the anti-christ) Isaiah 14:12 is satan's designation--his climb and fall from Heaven. No earthy "king" can fit those "spiritual" components found in that scripture, and no other "angel" did what only satan has demonstrated throughout the rest of scripture to have done. Matt 4:8-10 Luke 10:18, Rev. 12:4,
The word "hêylêl" , even though "Strong's" has "morning star" as a definition for the Hebrew, there is no connection to the Hebrew word "star" (kôkâb) in the term, only in that it brings forth "light". Strong is going back to antiquity and rendering a similar explanation for 'that word' that Jerome did which was the planet Venus--but Jerome saw the connection to satan in the texts he was translating. Jerome moved to Bethlehem while he translated the Vulgate and lived there for 35 years and became fluent in Hebrew. Now you can say "I always stick with the Hebrew", but do you speak fluent Hebrew and write Hebrew?
It is also of interest that Pope Clement of Rome in his "Apostolic Constitutions" holds to "non-satanic role" in Isaiah 14:12 with another Pope Ambrose and others. The list includes two Popes and six Doctors of the catholic 'church' you can put in your corner of interpretation.
As for satan being a "light bringer", this is referring to his former status in heaven; was "perfect in beauty and wisdom" and fell because of pride in his countenance. 2 Cor.14:11 is about satan's status AFTER HIS FALL , and does not suggest he "WAS" an angel of "light" in Heaven. After his demise he has power to appear as God's messenger by transforming his countenance to that rank of godly angel. Your suggestion, since he is the "bringer of light, already makes him an "angel of light" makes no sense and out of sync with the scripture.
Hello children of the one true living God, please ask the Lord Jesus Christ to let the Holy Spirit guid eyou.


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Education is the main agent of transformation towards sustainable development, raising people's abilities to transform their visions into reality for society. Education not only provides scientific and practical abilities, in addition, it gives the motivation, and social support for pursuing and using them. For this reason, society has to be greatly concerned that much of present education falls far short of what is demanded. Principal Chad Smith reflects the very essentials across the cultures that let everyone become responsible towards quality enhancement when we say this. Reorienting its goals to recognise the significance of sustainable development and enhancing revelation and the calibre of education must be among society's greatest precedence. It isn't that we talk only about surroundings but also about every single component of life. We so need to clarify the notion of education for sustainable development. It turned out to be a major challenge for educators during the past decade.
The meanings of sustainable development in informative set ups, the right balance of peace, human rights, citizenship, social equity, ecological and development subjects in already overloaded curricula, and ways of integrating the humanities, the social sciences and also the arts into what had up to now been seen and practised as a branch of science education. These discussions were compounded by the urge of many, mainly environmental, NGOs to contribute to educational planning with no requisite understanding of how education systems function, how educational change and innovation occurs, and of professional development relevant program development and instructive values. Not recognising that effective educational change does take time, others were critical of authorities for not acting more promptly.
Consequently, many national, regional and international initiatives have led to a refined and increased comprehension of the meaning of education for sustainable development. By way of example, Education International, the leading umbrella group of teachers' unions and organisations on earth, has issued a declaration and action plan to promote sustainable development through education. A common agenda in these is the demand for an integrated approach through which all communities, government entities, collaborate in developing a shared understanding of and commitment to policies, strategies and programs of education for sustainable development.
Furthermore, many individual governments have established program development jobs and committees, panels, advisory councils develop policy and suitable support structures, programs and resources to discuss education for sustainable development, and fund local initiatives. Along with peace education, development education, international education, citizenship education, human rights education, and multicultural and anti-racist education that all have been important, environmental education has been particularly critical. Chad Smith Principal its simple thirty-year history, modern environmental education has steadily striven towards consequences and aims similar and comparable to those inherent in the idea of sustainability.


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March 20, 2010
This is Brisco's first official single off his album Street Medicine, which is due out April 20th. And in a brief but very interesting move, Lil Wayne drops the chorus for this. Brisco flows a little different on this one. The beat almost ensures anyone to do so. But yeah, finally, we're about to see the long awaited album come to life. Listen and download below…
Brisco featuring Lil Wayne – Off The Wall
Download: Click Here


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Barcelona striker Neymar is quite well known for his fun and antics on Instagram.
Recently, the Brazilian forward went on to post a picture on the photosharing website along with supermodel Alessandra Ambrosio.
The two were seen posing with the peace sign.
The supermodel too, went on to post a picture of the two of them having some fun behind the camera.
It appears to be some sort of a photoshoot, but nothing has been confirmed.
The Barca footballer was recently part of the squad that defeated Arsenal in their Champions League Round of 16 encounter to progress to the quarterfinals


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Hatebur developed a highly productive and flexible variation of its well established forming process, with advantages for product quality and maintenance, too
- AMP at 50
- Increasing forming force
- Higher press load, larger diameters
- The "combined ring process"
Thanks to the high total press load of 9,000 kN, the Hotmatic AMP 50-9 (shown here as a complete plant with sound hood, bar heating tunnel and bar magazine) is more versatile and offers greater flexibility in all part ranges than its predecessor.
Table of Contents:
- Expanding the Range of Fast Hot Forging
- Enhanced Power, Robustness with AMP 50-9
Hatebur, the Swiss company that develops hot- and cold-forming processes and machinery, recently added a new model to its range of hot-forming systems. In its first application, the new AMP 50-9 has proven to be a highly productive system for processing heavy-duty roller bearings, with the flexibility to produce a wide range of other parts.
"In stark contrast to the situation in consumer product markets where the shelf life of new developments can sometimes be expressed in months rather than years, forming machines are designed to last for decades," explained Thomas Christoffel, who became CEO of Hatebur Metalforming Equipment Ltd. last June. A mechanic by training, Christoffel studied engineering and earned an executive MBA, and has been with Hatebur since 1998. Starting his career there in technical customer service, in 2005 he switched to a role in sales before taking over as Sales and Marketing Division Manager at the start of 2013.
The primary example for group's business philosophy is the Hatebur AMP 70, one model of which just completed its 50th anniversary in operation at SONA BLW Precision Forge in Remscheid, Germany. That plant specializes at manufacturing precision forged parts such as gear wheels and axle components for cars and trucks.
This particular AMP 70 – one of the first of its kind – has delivered more than 600 million forged parts since it started production in 1965. Featuring four forming stages, a stroke rate of 50-80 min-1 and a total forming force of 15,000 kN, this tireless workhorse can be used to produce a wide range of parts with diameters of up to 145 mm and weights of up to 5,000 g. It is slated to continue its service for quite a few more years to come thanks to thorough modernization measures such as the latest Hatebur control unit.
Reworking a proven design — "The main reason for getting to the drawing board for a major makeover of the well-proven AMP 50 XL was the desire to enhance its capacity," according to Christoffel. The AMP 50 XL is effective for producing a broad range of hot-forged parts, with diameters of up to 104 mm and a maximum weight of 2,000 g. Its typical products are gear wheels, axles, flanges, and roller bearing rings.
A special variant of the machine, HFE, produces forward extruded parts, such stub axles. One particularity of this variant is the fact that the parts are held and transported by the narrowest section, not the widest section. The stroke rate can be varied between 60 and 100 min-1.
The AMP 50 is a versatile performer that is the centerpiece of manufacturing programs for forgers in many parts of the world. Over the years, many improvements have been implemented, such as a modern operator guidance system: commands are entered via a touchscreen, and the visualization of important process steps and key production figures provides a sophisticated base for economic production. Still, for a number of applications some users have wanted to operate at somewhat higher press loads.


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Originally posted on NFL Trade Rumors | Last updated 11/8/12
Raiders second-year running back Taiwan Jones took first team reps during Wednesday's practice, per Paul Gutierrez of CSNBayArea.com. "He's been a little up and down," Raiders head coach Dennis Allen said of Jones, via Gutierrez. "A little injury-prone, or injury-plagued, and so it's been kind of tough to evaluate because he's missed some time. But we've got confidence in Taiwan and if he's called on to step in and play, then we fully anticipate him stepping in and perform and do his job." Jones has exceptional speed, but like Dennis Allen said, he is injury prone and struggles to hold onto the ball. He should see a big increase in his role with the offense, but don't be surprised if he used more as a change of pace back rather than the Raiders feature back. It's worth noting that when running backs Darren McFadden and Mike Goodson left last week's game with ankle injuries, Marcel Reece received more playing time than did Jones.
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|Sam Bisbee <...@sbisbee.com>
|Re: view reduce management for different dbs with same record types
|Tue, 08 May 2012 04:47:13 GMT
You should be able to use filtered replication to send just design docs between dbs. I often like to have a skel db that has no data and just acts as sync point for me dbs' ddocs in this type of arch. Cheers, -- Sam Bisbee Typed on a crap touch keyboard. On May 7, 2012 5:33 AM, "bryan rasmussen" <email@example.com> wrote: > I am saving logs from different webservers into different databases, > > so the logs from server 1 is in db server1 for example. > > I have views that are used in server1 db that I want to replicate in > all my other dbs of the same type. > Is there any tool that does this easily right now? Is there an API to do > it? > Or should I roll my own - if so has anyone rolled their own? > > for rolling my own I would just have a single folder of views and then > update via a batch script to all the dbs, anyone see any problems with > that offhand? > > Thanks, > Bryan Rasmussen >
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|Graham Leggett <minf...@sharp.fm>
|Re: apr-util + LDAP: How to handle status codes
|Wed, 01 Aug 2001 10:49:22 GMT
Ian Holsman wrote: > would it be possible to have a apr_ldap_errstr( apr_status_t ) function > which would > convert the numbers into messages? There is already an apr_strerror() function to do this. Would it not make sense to somehow have this function include the ldap_err2string() function for errors in the LDAP range? How would this be achieved when apr_strerror() is in APR, and the LDAP stuff is in APR-util? Could a callback not be introduced to apr_strerror() which allows a specific function to be called to return string errors for certain number ranges? The APR-util code would then set this callback function to point at ldap_err2string()? Regards, Graham -- ----------------------------------------- email@example.com "There's a moon over Bourbon Street tonight..."
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Pico Macom's TSMS-2150X Series rack-mounted satellite multi-switches can be used in every SMATV application requiring satellite 950-2150MHz IF distribution.The easy mount enclosure and all rear panel connections provide for rack mounting or quick and easy wall mounting by simply turning the unit face to the wall. The TSMS-2150X-8AUV allows 2 LNB inputs and 1 off-air antenna input (40-806 MHz) and provides 8 outputs, while the TSMS-2150X-16A allows2 LNB inputs and provides 16 outputs. The advanced circuit design incorporates a pin diode matrix to route any of the inputs to any of the outputs by utilizing the 13-14V Right-Circular/Vertical or 17-18V Left-Circular/Horizontal switching control supplied by the satellite receivers, thus eliminating digital artifacts that result from mechanical relay switching. To compensate for insertion loss, both versions use separate built-in amplifiers for satellite and/or VHF/UHF signals.The TSMS-2150X series, used with the external power supply, will supply power to the LNBs reducing heat build up within the multi-switch and prolong the life of the unit.
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