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Hey all, been a while since I've been here. But know this is a great resource for ideas and discussion.
Just finished building a new PC last night, but having problems with getting it going now. System is ASUS PBZ77-V LK mobo, i5 3570 processor, Gigabyte GTX670 video, 2x 8GB G.Skill memory, Samsung SSD, and other Samsung 1TB drive. The build went pretty well, but now, this...
I can't get any video/visual on the monitors. This is using either the Gigabyte video card, the integrated mobo video, including completely removing the video card from the mobo slot and trying. Using 2x Acer 23" screens, which were working fine with the system I'm replacing. They had been connected by VGA cable, but with the new video card, I can finally use the DVI cables instead. Connecting the cables, the floating screen message changes from "Cable Not Connected" to "No Signal", so it appears the system is at least seeing the connection. But nothing at startup, regardless of connection method.
I admit it's been a few years since my last system build. Do computers still provide a "beep" of some sort after completing the POST procedures? There is no beep at all. I ask because when I think of the new Dell PCs at work, there is no POST beep with them either, but there are working fine. So I wasn't sure if new PCs still did that or not.
So there is no audible beep of any code, no audible beep codes to follow indicating something wrong, and no video being provided to check any BIOS or other settings. I have went ahead and unplugged/replugged everything. The ASUS manual isn't very helpful with troubleshooting info. I remember a great website for nForce4 systems back in the days when I build a lot of computers, but can't seem to find anything related or similar for ASUS boards. It could possibly be something faulty, who knows, but I also can't seem to find out what it might be, as it seems I'm blind in my troubleshooting attempts?
Suggestions? Anything at all is appreciated! Thanks -
You're indeed troubleshooting a no-POST, and the beep is no longer required. It looks like that particular board lacks diagnostic lights or codes as well.
The first thing I'd ensure is that the +12v power is connected properly, and that it's not shorting against anything in the case.
When you turn it on, I presume that's from the front panel switch. Does it then turn off the same way?
Have you tried turning it on by disconnecting the front panel power header and just shorting the two pins with a screwdriver?
I presume all the fans spin, but there are no other signs of life, or do you see/hear the spinning disk drive?
Have you tried checking where the mobo wants the RAM and then running one stick at a time?
Hi Nevarre, thanks for the prompt reply.
I have unplugged/replugged pretty much everything, and feel fairly confident that the connections are setting properly and secure. Not certain which cable from the PSU is the 12V rail, but both the biggest motherboard connection (like 2x12 pins or so, maybe) and the secondary mobo connection (2x4 pins) by the CPU socket are both connected and not bumping into anything. There is a LED on the motherboard that is lit up, but that seems to be the correct state and a feature on the motherboard, according the manual, showing that the RAM memory is operating correctly.
Yeah, I'm starting up from the front panel switch. The new case for the system is a Cooler Master HAF932. And I do turn it off the same way as nothing else seems to show that things are working correctly otherwise. Not certain what you're asking about "shorting the two pins with a screwdriver", but I've unplugged and replugged the small pin wires for the power switch, reset switch, hdd led, etc, including turning them around when possible. Yes, the fan do spin up, and stay spinning, just no POST or anything further and nothing on screen. I do believe I heard the regular hard drive spinning up as well. Of course nothing from the SSD. I will also double check the RAM, which is now mostly hidden under the Noctua NH-D14 behemoth heatsink. There are four RAM slots, 2 black and 2 blue, and the manual says to install RAM in the blue slots first, which I've done. But I'll see what I can do to access them and try booting with each single piece of RAM.
Not certain which cable from the PSU is the 12V rail, but both the biggest motherboard connection (like 2x12 pins or so, maybe) and the secondary mobo connection (2x4 pins) by the CPU socket are both connected and not bumping into anything. There is a LED on the motherboard that is lit up, but that seems to be the correct state and a feature on the motherboard, according the manual, showing that the RAM memory is operating correctly.
I mean the secondary power connector, which is apparently working. Failing to plug that in would show similar symptoms to what you describe.
The small pin wires for the power switch can be removed, leaving the pins on the motherboard. Holding the handle of a screwdriver, while the system is off, just touching both pins simultaneously with the metal tip of the screwdriver should cause the system to turn on. Very rarely, a power switch on the front of the case cause problems, so you're trying to rule out the on/off switch. (Turning it off can be done from the power supply.)
Unfortunately testing the RAM would be very helpful-- one stick at a time. I know that's going to be a nuisance with your current HS/F.
The one "last resort" option to isolate away from it being something in the case shorting against the board would be to remove the board from the case, and lay it next to the case (or just remove the case from the testing entirely.) If you do so, the board goes on something non-conductive like wood or cardboard and learning how to switch the computer on without the case becomes pretty handy... If it works outside of the case-- booting up fine as just bare components then something in the case is causing a short circuit.
You don't need the full computer to set it up outside of the case-- motherboard, CPU, RAM, HS/F and PSU is sufficient. All you need to prove is that you can see the boot process start.
Failing all of that, I'd suspect that the bad component is most likely to be the motherboard and replacing the motherboard is the next logical step. The RAM would be the second most logical, but doing one stick at a time makes it less likely that both are bad.
I admit, when I very first tried to turn on the system, fans spun up then off. I did find that I had failed to connect the secondary 2x4 pin connector to the motherboard. Since doing so though, the fans stay on and it sounds like the computer is running, but there's no POST beep or video on monitors at all. So as you said, I think the power switch is working correctly.
Looks like the mobo is installed OK as well. There are six brass standoff posts used, and each one corresponds to a hole in the motherboard which is now held by the screws into each post.
Trying to finish a couple things so I can jump back on the PC project and check out the RAM. Know everyone hopes that a component isn't causing an issue when they build, but I'm also concerned due to the near month that I've had things and hadn't been able to start building til yesterday. I'll have to check on Newegg's return policy too I guess.
One other thing I wondered about earlier involved my new experience with Intel processors. Honestly, every other system I've made in the past was an AMD system. Back when I was building often, you always had to be really careful when installing the heatsink on the CPU, as the AMD cores could be crushed, resulting in quickly ruined processor. The Intel chips are quite different, metal shell on the top and without the short pins that were on the bottoms of AMD chips. As I was pretty much winging it with the installation of the Intel processor, and then the whole experience getting the large Noctua heatsink installed, is there any need for concern that I damaged the CPU during installation? Any way to check or confirm?
There are six brass standoff posts used, and each one corresponds to a hole in the motherboard which is now held by the screws into each post.
Those *can* be a source of short circuits, but are probably OK. Newegg's return policy is not all that generous, unfortunately.
I guess I also keep thinking that there would be an audible beep code if some of these things were occurring, but there is nothing at all.
So, first off, your case does come with a speaker, but it sounds like you don't have it installed. It'll be around 2 inches long, have a connector like the ones for your front panel buttons, and on the other end of the wires will be a cylinder about a centimeter tall. There is a picture on Newegg's product page, it's the image with the case next to the box. You should probably install this.
Second, if I were you, I'd get the mobo manual out and walk through the installation instructions, make sure you didn't leave out a step, just in case. Starting from the beginning with an issue like this usually helps. After you've done that, look at the different jumpers and switches on your mobo, and check their positioning. ASUS' mobos come with quite a bit of switches/jumpers, and one might have either come in a bad position, or you accidentally hit one of the switches. One I'm unfamiliar with is the "GPU Boost switch," but the others should be in a default position (as designated by the manual).
Third, and perhaps you should actually do this first, but have you tried the monitor(s) with a connector besides DVI? You say the monitors are known-good, but that was with VGA, correct? Try an HDMI cable, or a VGA-DVI adapter, as it strikes me that you're troubleshooting as if it's a no-POST situation without a speaker/troubleshoot code to start from, and yet your system is powering up.
Either way, installing the speaker should help you narrow down where you need to look.
edit - and try both monitors separately, if you haven't already.
Hi incubusfox, and thanks for your reply as well.
Maybe I didn't mention it, and I don't see in earlier posts that I did, but the small, 2 wire speaker is connected to I think the correct pins in the front panel connect area (4 pins on the speaker, and 4 pins on the speaker area on mobo as shown in manual). Still nothing audible whether the speaker is connected or not.
I'll recheck the jumper switch positions on the motherboard, as I've tried to do as I've gone through the manual. But I'll certainly check it again.
Regarding the monitors, they were connected to an ATI Radeon 4850, which offers a single DVI and single VGA port on the card. On top of that, I was using a 2 system KVM switch, so the monitors for the main system plugged directly into the secondary port on the card, that being VGA, and the primary was connected to a DVI-to-VGA adaptor, as the KVM switch was VGA only. I need to find a new solution for a KVM switch, but that's obviously another subject.
As I think you're saying, yeah, the problem is not being able to tell how far into a proper boot the system is getting. The system stays on, fans continue spinning, there is no audible POST beep or other beep codes indicating an issue (which is what I'm used to, but not hearing on this system in any way). Usually there are audible beep codes, which you can use to troubleshoot, and the system won't boot up. This one there is nothing audible, but the system seems to power up and stay on.
Been out running some errands and checking in at work quick, but on my home to keep working on it. Will check the RAM, etc.
Try flipping the speaker connector around the other way then. The beep code list in your manual is in section 2.4 titled "Starting up for the first time," on Pg 2-42, just in case it works.
You can also try using the Mem_OK switch, on the off-chance your RAM's default settings are incompatible with your BIOS version.
If this fails, I suggest you do as Nevarre mentioned, and bring the system outside of the case to remove as many points of failure as possible.
It's a little hard to convey, but if the system shows signs of powering on... but then there's no further change-- just fans spinning indefinitely, it's likely to be a power issue-- bad motherboard or a short circuit being the two most likely scenarios there as noted.
Detecting that vs. a system that's working OK but not outputting video can be tricky, but it's probably the former not the latter.
If it powers on then shuts down, then that may be heat, or it may be detecting the CPU's not installed properly.
Strip it down to the motherboard, CPU, stock HSF, one stick of RAM, and the PSU. Put it on the box the motherboard came in and hook the monitor to the onboard video. You can use a screwdriver to short the power switch leads to turn the system on/off in that state.
See if that works. If you can get a POST screen out of the case, try adding the second stick of RAM, then attaching the HSF, then the video card (connect a monitor to the DVI-I port on the GTX 670). If it's still POSTing out of the case at that point, try putting it back into the case.
Last build I did things were really unstable due to low Vcore. Took it out, put it all on a box, POSTed, Vcore was fine. Put it all back into the case and everything's been good since.
I agree with Ice Storm.
Strip it down to bare minimum's, outside of the case.
Pop the CPU out, make sure all of the pins on the socket look ok and reseat the CPU.
Try one stick of RAM at a time (speaking of, is that RAM on the compatibility list for your board? I've noticed over the years, boards have become increasingly particular on RAM. It's not like yesteryear where just about any stick of PC100 would work in a PC100 board, at least IME)
No drives connected. Try onboard video first. Reset the CMOS. Take all of the case cables off (LEDs, power/reset switches, etc). Unplug and replug all of your power cables.
That at least rules out a bunch of things. If you still get no love, I would start with a different stick of RAM, then PSU, motherboard and finally the CPU.
I'm in the middle of taking things apart again. A couple things I've found interesting so far.
1) The back support bracket behind the motherboard provided by Noctua is certainly coming in contact with the case frame itself. Funny that one of the features of the case is that supposedly there is an area cut out allowing access to the back of the motherboard without having to remove mobo. Well, either the hole that is cut out is somehow in the wrong place, or the layout of the ASUS mobo puts the processor in an unusual place. Can't help but wonder if this is causing the problem. Will continue taking system down and putting it together as basic set up completely outside case.
2) When I removed one of each of the two RAM sticks, nothing happened. Same silence, no error codes, no video/visual anything. So I took both sticks out, and hit the power switch just to see. Finally there was an audible beep code of one long two short, which is No Memory Detected in the manual. Probably seems obvious, but I was just glad to finally have the system provide a hint of intelligence, even if only to produce a beep error code.
3) Removed the Noctua NH-D14 heatsink/fan and removed the Intel processor. Luckily everything appears fine, as there is no obvious damage, discoloration or anything similar.
4) One last thing I noticed is that the single fan on the top of the Corsaid TX650 PSU is not moving at all. I wondered if it could be a reactive fan only kicking on if temperature reached high enough, but I think that kind of seems unlikely.
Bout to call it a night. Plan to get the mobo completely out of case and might do a basic set up and power up before calling it a night. Will check back tomorrow. Thanks for help so far.
hat the single fan on the top of the Corsaid TX650 PSU is not moving at all. I wondered if it could be a reactive fan only kicking on if temperature reached high enough, but I think that kind of seems unlikely.That is very likely actually, quite the opposite of what you are thinking.
If the motherboard/heatsink backplate is contacting the case that might be very bad if it's actually bending things outta whack, but if it's barely touching you might be ok.
That didn't take long to finish. I removed the motherboard, placed it on a clean piece of cardboard on the table, took the 24 and 8 pin motherboard power supply connectors and hooked up to mobo, put the stock heatsink on (one with no back side), connected the monitor to the mobo's DVI port and then using a screwdriver, carefully touched the 2 pins that would normally connect to the case's power switch wiring. The system did the exact same thing it's been doing. No POST beep, no beep code sequence, no video at all.
So at this point is it looking like PSU or motherboard are the culprit?
Sorry continuum, didn't see your reply til I submitted my last post. So the PSU fan not working could inidicate something too? And regarding the heatsink's backplate, while it was pretty tight, and did contact the case itself, I don't think it was doing so to the point of warping or bending anything.
So the PSU fan not working could inidicate something too?No, I doubt it does. Many PSU fans now do not spin on startup and do not spin until sufficient thermal load/temperatures are achieved.
Give you've taken everything out and just done a basic installation... and still get nothing, I would be suspecting bad motherboard, power supply, or CPU.
Could try popping the CMOS battery, then power on without it installed. I've had a few instances where that helped.
Do you have an old PSU that you can pull to test with? Pretty much anything from the mid-P4 era or later should be sufficient to power the board + CPU + RAM. That would potentially rule out the PSU.
Honestly, it's more likely to be a bad Mobo. I know it's a pain to do all this troubleshooting just to get to that conclusion.
When I build personal systems now-- although it's not really necessary and I don't do it for work, etc.-- I'll build the system just like this out of the box and turn it on once to prove the mobo is good. That saves me all the assembly and disassembly if I need to stop, troubleshoot, or return stuff.
Seeing as that you have signs of life when you don't have RAM in it, and the system is dead as a doornail when you do have RAM in it, I would be highly suspect of the RAM..
I had tried resetting the CMOS last night without any different result. At this point I'm going to connect another PSU I have and see what happens. Also trying to find a friend that might have similar RAM to test and see if anything is different. Unfortunately it's been a while since I built a system, so I don't have a lot of current replacement parts to try and use. Which also makes the idea of RMA a concern, trying to figure out which part(s) are faulty and actually need to go back. Not sure they'll take a RMA for parts without knowing pretty well that they are the cause of the issues.
One thing that I should NOT have done, which I recall doing on other builds. I get too excited and route the cabling nice, zip tie everything, etc, then try and boot up. So I had to cut all the zips and pull all the cable routing out. I really should remember to test boot for POST long before getting to the end point. Hopefully I'll remember next time.
Well scratch the PSU test for now. The other one I had must be older than I thought it was, as it's only a 20 pin (2x10) and 4 pin mobo connector variety. So looking for another PSU to test.
jader wrote:
Well scratch the PSU test for now. The other one I had must be older than I thought it was, as it's only a 20 pin (2x10) and 4 pin mobo connector variety. So looking for another PSU to test.
Those work fine.
Just plug the 20 pins into the 20 of the 24 into which they fit, leaving the other 4 empty. Same deal for the +12v block. Just plug in 4 out of the 8. They're keyed to only fit in the right place.
Are you sure you haven't hard set the monitors to only expect signal from the VGA?
Just got home again. I'll try that then with the older PSU.
Have a RMA number for Newegg done earlier this afternoon. Just wish I was certain which components I need to send back. As it is, I have mobo, CPU, and RAM I think that were included in the RMA.
Unless something really changes, which isn't too likely at this point.
Jeff Smith wrote:
Are you sure you haven't hard set the monitors to only expect signal from the VGA?
If I have somehow, I don't know it, lol. How is typically done? All I did was change out the VGA cables with DVI cables and connected to the proper connection port. Actually looking at the system I'm trying to replace, that is connected to the same monitors, through a DVI port now, things are fine.
Typically there's a button on the monitor that cycles through it listening on the various inputs. Often briefly pressing the button displays the input it is currently listening on.
Tried a second PSU and 2 other sticks of RAM, together and separately. Still same silence, no video, etc. Think I'm just gonna pack some boxes up tomorrow and head to a shipping place to send back. Hoping for different results when the new stuff comes back in.
Even though it didn't work out, this time, thanks all for your help and suggestions. I learned some new stuff, remembered some old stuff, and had a great experience coming back to Ars forum for a bit. Thanks!
RicDavis wrote:
Typically there's a button on the monitor that cycles through it listening on the various inputs. Often briefly pressing the button displays the input it is currently listening on.
Interesting. When I press buttons on the underside of the monitor, the far right one (out of 5), it shows "Input". If I press it again, the screen grays out, and says "VGA", then a second later "DVI" in the upper right corner. This is all it does though.
You're seeing a blank screen with the system connected and powered on, or with nothing connected?
Blank screens, using video card OR mobo integrated video. Monitors go from "No Cable Connected"(or similar, so acknowledging the connection) before connected, to "No Signal" when connected, but then when power is turn on to computer, nothing at all. Not even a flicker. Have tried 2x Acer 23" and an old Sony 21" CRT, while also reconnecting the Acer LCDs to another PC and seeing that they do still work.
Actually working on cleaning up and getting items packed to RMA back; CPU, RAM, and mobo. Wife ands kids went out of town to her parents for the weekend to allow me uninterrupted time to build the new system. Wish it was up and running but no luck. And I've got computer parts and boxes spread all over the place in office and kitchen.
I had the exact same symptoms back when I built my WHS box.
At the end of the day, after sending the mobo back like 4 times, I had a fully functioning computer. I did buy a second PSU (which is now used in my wife's computer) to check it wasn't that, and extra RAM to confirm it wasn't that (and now the server has a full 8GB of RAM). I actually had to buy a second CPU because a 'chipped' the corner of it (aka cracked the corner of the exposed PCB when re-seating it).
MSI's support was fairly cooperative in having me send it back. What I can't understand was if I kept getting bad units (that were previously RMA'd?) or if it were something else. They were confident that my CPU was compatible out-of-the-box with the Mobo, but for all I know I ESD'd them all to death. I did end up buying a grounding wrist strap (shame on me for not already having one, I know) that I used the the time that yielded a functioning box.
FWIW, Newegg's reviews of the board were rife with DOA complaints that popped up after I bought the board.
Long story short, I would contact Asus and at least have them start telling you to do all the things that everyone above has suggested so you can work towards an RMA if need-be.
While I really like Asus boards, their cheap boards are a bit crap. I tend to go for MSI for any cheap boards, and maybe even Gigashyte if I'm pushed. I swear by Asus' more expensive boards, though.
jader wrote:
There is a LED on the motherboard that is lit up, but that seems to be the correct state and a feature on the motherboard, according the manual, showing that the RAM memory is operating correctly.
A continuously lit DRAM LED actually means you have a memory configuration error (or the RAM is installed incorrectly). You have to hold down the 'MemOk' switch until the LED starts blinking. Then the BIOS will begin to cycle through different settings to try to find a compatible setting. The less obvious part of the process is that it takes about 30 seconds for the BIOS to pick a setting and then the system reboots. If the BIOS's initial attempt fails it will attempt to repeat the process after each reboot until it finds a compatible setting. So if you don't realize what's happening and power the system down manually you'll interrupt the process and prevent the BIOS from doing it's thing.
PekingDuck wrote:
A continuously lit DRAM LED actually means you have a memory configuration error (or the RAM is installed incorrectly).
I know this is what all the documentation and manuals say, but having an ASUS mobo with a continuously lit DRAM LED that otherwise works fine (and passes testing), it's not quite fool-proof. Like LordAthens said up-thread, approved RAM lists are getting quite picky. For my RAM (Corsair Vengeance, with the massive blue fins ) , a 2x2GB kit is approved, and I believe a 1x4GB stick is approved, but an 2x4GB kit wasn't on the list when I was building this system, and I didn't see it added to future BIOS updates.
It's possible this problem is fixed in a BIOS update for this board, but newer BIOS have a number of reported problems, and if I update past my current version, I can't downgrade back to it, so I haven't bothered to test.
It is, however, something worth looking at, I'll admit. I mistakenly skipped right over that part, but maybe my board is an outlier.
I'm ba-ack....
Unfortunately. A few posts and comments since my last one when I sent the motherboard back. Got the replacement back mid last week and finally got a chance to try building again today. No luck. Exact same problems.
The DRAM LED on mobo is still a steady red. I went through the manual's steps using the MemOK switch and still solid red after it finished that. According to the manual, "If the installed DIMMS still fail to boot after the whole turning process, the DRAM LED lights continuously. Replace the DIMMS with ones recommended in the Memory QVL (Quality Vendors List) in the user's manual...". One thing I noticed is that he memory I'm using, 2x 8GB G.Skill F3-1600C9D-16GXM is not specifically mentioned in the manual, though there are a few that are close in naming. I don't think it's an issue with some kinds of incompatability with single 8GB DIMMS, as there are other examples of 8GB DIMMs on the QVL in manual, though from other manufacturers. At this point, I'm hoping to snag another stick of RAM, hoping it's compatible, from a friend and see if it works. I guess I'm skeptical, even though things are pointing now to the RAM somewhat, it still seems that if the RAM was not working the system would still display something on the monitors, and there is nothing. I don't think I've ever seen anything on the monitors once since starting this whole thing over a month ago. I know the monitors are still working though, as I can connect them back ot the old system and they work fine. There is no POST beep or beep codes of any kinds. I know someone mentioned a BIOS update that might resolve incompatability issues, but don't think I can do that without seeing anything displayed at all. Doing online searches for the specific ASUS and G.Skill models, I see examples of the two specific products being used together successfully.
Before I try to send back the motherboard again, once again not knowing very well that it is in fact the problem, I'm hoping to try some additional things. I once told myself I would never buy a pre-built computer, that I'd always build my own from components I wanted. At this point I wish I had bought a pre-built. Over a month into this and things still don't work. I don't have time for this, lol.
Since it doesn't look like I noted it earlier, I did not return the RAM and CPU with the previous RMA. I couldn't find a few pieces of the packaging and Newegg insisted they were strict on all packaging being returned for a RMA. So only the motherboard has been returned at this point.
Finally! Some success! Used a 4GB G.Skills "Sniper" DIMM from my brother-in-law, the computer POSTed first try. Had just taken my RAM to his house to try and using both together or single resulted in different errors, 45 and 38, on his system. He has some ASRock something-or-other. So guess maybe the motherboard is OK, and at that, maybe the board I already sent back was OK too, lol. Now I need to find some replacement RAM for my own system and hope it keeps working, I get things installed, and it's stable.


text:
Clay got his tokens and headed straight to "The Claw". You know this game? Think Toy Story. You're supposed to maneuver this claw to pick up a toy and drop it into the slot where you can get it. How it works in reality, however, is that you put about $500 dollars worth of tokens in the thing and get nothing but a headache from it. Well, Clay walked over to the game and before I could stop him and redirect him to something else, he'd put his tokens in the machine.
I started to warn him. "Clayton, no one ever wins anything from that machine. It never works. Don't be disappointed when you, what the heck???" I stopped mid-sentence as he dropped a stuffed doll into the slot, grabbed it, and ran off.
I called after him, "Clayton! How did you do that?! He shrugged, giggled, and said, "I dunno. I did it like SpongeBob. BE the crane!"
When Brooklyn saw the doll that Clay had won, she dropped to the floor and started wailing that she wanted one too. Being ever compassionate, I told her, "Get a grip or I'm taking you home." She screamed even louder. I grabbed her hand to
Now what do you do with that? I try to be firm with Brooklyn. I try not to give in to her tantrums. But she has FIVE siblings who get sick of hearing her. They'll give her anything to shut her up and I don't blame them! And really, that was very sweet of Clay. He can be such a good big brother. So, once again, she got her way and the monster we're creating got a little bit worse.
To fully appreciate this, you have to hear Clay's infectious giggle. Here's an old video of Clay scaling the fridge to steal a cookie. Yes, the first several seconds are sideways. I know. Sorry about that. But listen to this kid laugh. You can't be sad listening to this.

subset: commoncrawl


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text:
Frank Frazetta
Mary Blair
JP Miller
Mel Crawford
Bill Wray
Johnny Johnston
You don't have to have a lot of money in your production budget to still have tasteful and appealing, interesting, non-generic art. Here are some BGs from extremely low budget $3,000 HB cartoons from 1958. I find them infinitely more appealing than the purple and pink BGs that appear in movies that cost $200,000,000 and more to make. In Daffy Daddy and Robin Hood Yogi, Art Lozzi chose very atypical colors to paint the forest. Many cartoons paint trees and grass a simple middle green-straight out of the tube or they use 50-50 yellow green and paint all the trees middle brown.
LEVELS OF IMPORTANCE: The painter decides what is important in the scene and uses color and value and texture and contrast to draw your eye to a hierarchy of elements.
The picnic basket is most important, so it has a lighter color than the BG and it is a contrast in hue. The BG is mostly greenish so the basket is orange-tan.
The table is less obvious than the basket but is still contrasted against the forest by being a lighter and more yellowish shade of green.
The values of the trees against the green BG are very close in value to the BG, so that the image doesn't become too contrasty or busy to compete with the foreground elements.
This is very logical or functional.
The choice of colors is then aesthetic on top of their functionality.
They work and they are pretty.
This peachy sky is surprising and a nice color and adds cartoony happy interest to the scenes.
EVEN STYLIZED IMAGES SHOULD BE ORGANIC: Even though the trees are ALMOST straight lines, they aren't all perfectly parallel. They are just organically different enough to make the stylized BG feel natural.
The trees also are not evenly spaced. There are different sizes and shapes of negative spaces between them.
Note how the flowers are little spots of bright happy colors to liven up the image.
This man is not brilliantly color keyed but at least he is not garish. His colors are related which helps him read as one object-a man. His colors contrast well against the BG painting and make him read clearly against it.
I had Richard Ziehler-Martin reproduce this pan BG for me and I used it in my Ranger Smith cartoons. I tried out so many BG painters and asked them to learn the early HB techniques and Richard was the only one who pulled it off. He then took the ideas from these cartoons and did more elaborate BGs for Boo Boo Runs Wild.
I like how hills and planes are suggested by just putting a texture with one hard edge and then a faded edge.
The log cabin is not the typical tan wood color you always see in cartoons. It's sort of a warmly greyed tan which is cartoony and still feels natural. It's not screaming at you.
Look how happy and colorful this is!
I don't know what Art's thinking was for these 2 cartoons but maybe he figured that thick forests are actually kind of dark, not bright and typical "cartoon-colors".
Part of what makes something fun and colorful is that it differs from what you are used to seeing in a cartoon.
In later Hanna Barbera cartoons, the colors become much more standardized and generic.
For the first 3 years of Hanna Barbera's TV studio there was a lot of experimentation in design and color and texture and animation. All done cheaply, but much done creatively and full of surprises.
Fun needs surprise. Imagine getting the same birthday present every year? That's how modern cartoon studios treat their product. They give you the same thing over and over again.
Even if you genuinely like the combination of pink-purple and green, do you really ONLY want that combination?
Here's another Yogi Bear cartoon painted by Art that is in a different color style.
Art doesn't like to paint the same exact style every time and even on a super low budget cartoon show with a fast schedule still finds the time and will to make his work fun and pretty and full of surprises.
More about Art to come, including his insights and history of 50s and 60s HB cartoons.