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Friday, February 4, 2011
Maybe the Mayans were right...but they were talking about the publishing industry
I have to be careful here. For all kinds of reasons. But here goes...
For the last six months I have been in negotiations for a book deal with the editor-in-chief of a publishing house. It doesn't matter who. It doesn't matter where. What matters is that, after much work by both of us, I had to abruptly cut off all further discussions about the project just as it appeared we were nearing a deal. Why? Because, last Friday, after a long and fruitful conversation on the phone about the new project, and his continued interest in the e-book rights to one of my previously published books, I sent the editor an e-mail in which I asked this question: "What is the split for e-books?"
His response: "The split for e-books is 75% company, 25% author."
Me: "Is this correct or do you have that backwards?"
Radio silence. I figure he thinks I'm kidding. I send up another flare:
Me: "I never heard back from you about this. I was serious in asking if this was a typo. Does the publisher actually take 75% of the e-book dough?"
Him: "Yes. The publisher takes 75%."
Me: "How do you justify that."
Him: "The number has been handed to me."
After about 20 seconds of hard thinking, I do what I usually do when faced with these situations. I set fire to the bridge ahead of me.
Me: "I'm just amazed at this. No amount of "platforming" can justify this rate. If this is the way publishers are going to try to hold onto the business, then I think they are doomed. If that's the rate they expect me to sign up for if I do a deal over there, I'm going to have to pass and save us the time working on the pages. If there is the chance of doing a book deal where I retain the e-book rights, I would be interested, but I think that's what they are really looking for anymore anyway. So guess this is it.
Good luck over there."
Rash? Yes. Stupid? Possibly.
I've spent the last week checking around with some of the agents, editors and writers I know and have found that this is, indeed, the standard rate that publishers are expecting on e-book sales. When I asked my agent how they can justify this, he told me that they would give me a large enough advance that it wouldn't matter for a long time. And yes, the advance we were discussing was very good money for someone who hasn't had a book published in five years and has had what could only be considered "minor" success in the writing field, if that. I was probably a fool to walk away from even the possibility of such a deal. But I had two good reasons for doing so.
My two children.
While this deal may have given my family a quick infusion of cash, the fact is that by the time I finished the book in question the cash would be gone. And by the time that book "earned out" at a rate of 3-1 in the publisher's favor in e-book sales, the publisher would have seen a small fortune without noticeable expense. And we would be saddled with a deal that would probably haunt my family long after I was dead and gone.
(I'm going to bypass all the variable calculations about hardcover sales, paperback sales, editing, marketing, artwork and distribution expenses for right now - let's, for the sake of this discussion, call those elements of the book deal a break-even situation for both sides, so we can just discuss e-books here as if we were starting at zero expense for all involved.)
What this "sizable advance" now looks like to me is a very expensive loan. I have been watching the e-book revolution carefully for the last two years and it is clear to me that by 2012 everything we have thought about traditional publishing will be history. The bookstores know this. The publishers know this. And some of the writers know this. But I have a feeling not everyone has gotten the memo yet.
I'll do some quick math here. Let's say Amazon sold the Kindle edition of a writer's book at $10 per copy. Amazon takes $3, leaving the publisher with $7. Their take would be $5.25, leaving the writer with $1.75. (In my case I then have to cut in my agent and attorneys for an additional 20%, so my take would be $1.40.) So the "publisher" makes $5.25 per copy and the writer makes between $1.40-$1.75 per copy. And this is all with very little tangible expenses, other than the accountants to keep the money all straight. I think the publisher will be doing pretty good while the writer is "earning out" that advance. Does this seem right to anyone out there? Other than publishers?
Another way to look at it would be this: Let's say the publisher picks up one of your old books and turns it into an e-book: text transfers, new editorial, a new cover, placement with the vendors, etc. Right now you yourself can do this for far less than $2,000, so we'll assume the publisher's cost will be that or less. By the time your book has earned you $10,000 in royalties, the publisher would have collected $30,000 for themselves. And what would their contributions have been? A "platform"? Publicity? We've all seen how well publishers promote "mid-list" books. What would make us think that things will change in this new e-world?
Obviously this model can't hold. There will be a revolt. The big time writers out there are already negotiating better terms, but I bet they are still getting the short end of the stick. In the meantime a lot of the little folks who just want to see print again are probably going to be seduced by new interest from publishers. I have a feeling there is going to be a tidal wave of cheap purchases by the publishers hoping to tie up as much material as possible at these usury rates. And then how much will your "platform" be worth? If you are just another name in a list of hundreds fighting for attention on a giant slate of titles you will have handed in your work cheap, with no way of getting it returned to you. Yes, that's right. E-books don't go out of print, so if you don't fight for time limits, your work will be lost to you. Permanently.
This is not for me. So I have no choice but to go full indie here. You heard me. I am walking away from a potential traditional publishing deal and joining the ranks of the self-published. I plan on putting my first two books and a short story collection up as e-books in the next month or so, possibly followed by a few works that I keep hidden in the bottom drawer of my desk to prevent them from harming the public at large. Hopefully this will help finance the completion of the big book that I started those six months ago.
This is a huge gamble for someone in my position. I am not prolific. My habit has been to publish two books every seven years or so. That time was approaching and I was hoping that I had found a new home with this editor and publishing house. But I can't sign away my financial legacy to my children in this fashion, however small it may be. I am far from a big name in the writing biz. Barely a blip on the radar. The fact that this editor had sought me out in the first place was extremely flattering to me. And now I am sure he will feel betrayed by this post, but this is not my intention. He's a good guy. Smart, talented, well read. This is not his fault. This is a global problem in publishing right now. It has nothing to do with individual publishers and is certainly no reflection on editors. (It's just going to make their jobs that much more difficult.)
This is a big topic and I have taken up a lot of your time here. I have so much more to say, about many different aspects of this post, but I think it should be broken up into digestible chunks, so I will continue posting about this over the next few weeks. I am going to have to use this blog (and anything else I can utilize) to reach out and build a community if I am to have any success at "self-publishing" so please sign up here if you can so I know who is reading these messages. Right now it's just me and a jury of 11.
I know an announcement like this by a minor figure in the business will not make much of a difference in the big scheme of things, but maybe my voice will be heard by a few others who are facing similar deals and they will ask themselves if it will really be worth it in the long run before they sign on the dotted line for the short score. This is how a revolution begins. Sometimes. One disgruntled citizen at a time.
As I said last week, for me, I have drawn the line.
56 comments:
- AnonymousFebruary 4, 2011 at 10:11 AM
two words for you: self-publish. (well, one hyphenated word.) i self-published my first book, kept ALL rights, and sold the movie rights myself. did my second through a "real" publisher, and even though it's in its second printing, i'm still paying off the "advance." (read: loan) publishers? scr*w em. before they scr*w you.ReplyDelete
Good luck. You have more support than you realize.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousFebruary 4, 2011 at 1:10 PM
As an aspiring author I am asking similar questions. Thanks for sharing your experience. And much luck to you and your books.ReplyDelete
A brave and difficult decision I think. Congratulations on being decisive and best of luck with your future publishing.ReplyDelete
I am not in the publishing business but am from a business background.
What I don't know if the size of the advance. You say "What this "sizable advance" now looks like to me is a very expensive loan." My response is 'of course it is' ... what else would it be.
If a Publisher is a) spending a good deal of money on promotion and b) is advancing a significant sum .. then it makes sense for them to get a significant cut. They after all are taking the gamble that your title may not sell. That HAS to be recognised. Only you know the answers to those questions.
Absenting those two factors then writers must look to go indie as you have decided.
Uh, yeah. By saying no to three print deals int he last year and publishing myself, I am making a living at writing for the first time ever. Good luck.ReplyDelete
Scott Nicholson
What on earth could justify a publisher taking such an exorbitant sum...when an e-book (for all intents and purposes) is bloody digital...requiring the publisher to put up zero dough for things like printing, binding, layout ect....That is completely ludicrous!ReplyDelete
Good for you dude!
Go for it, Terrill. I am an unknown mystery writer who has self-published seven ebooks (one of them a short story collection). I've never been traditionally published. I'm already earning $3,000 per month on Amazon alone, and I'm just getting started.ReplyDelete
Best wishes for your success!
Welcome to the club! I run a series of articles on my site called Adventures of Epublishing if you're ever interested in stopping by or have a question!ReplyDelete
I've not been in your position (having a book deal) but now that I've epubbed, I'm not going back to queries and waiting and low royalties! No thanks!
Best of luck to you!
Right on target as I see it. I'm new to this game, but my efforts over the last two years at getting published has met with some seriously indifferent agents and publishers.ReplyDelete
So, I have been driven to EBOOKS and self-publishing. THEIR LOSS, because I'm a good writer--just a new one.
Best to you.
Howard, you are right of course. And I am used to thinking of advances as expensive loans. It's the "very expensive" part that startled me this time around. Yes, they have a right to be rewarded for their gamble, but I find this current rate to be beyond anything remotely reasonable.ReplyDelete
Even with a small advance the writer will appear to be upside down on the deal while the publishers are raking in sizable profits for quite some time. This is not remotely close to the previous pay scale calculations and cuts involving hard cover and paperback sales. It's roughly double the cut without any of the expenses of producing and shipping a physical product. The initial overhead is the same, but that is minimal compared with the expense that happens afterwards per book out in the marketplace.
This appears to me to be an old fashioned land grab.
Go see Joe Konrath's website!ReplyDelete
He's done the sums on ebooks and has plenty of authors coming on to guest-post about their experiences.
You might also like to check out the Writer's Cafe section of Kindleboards http://www.kindleboards.com
There are plenty of self-published authors making massively larger sums of money than they ever could have received through paper publishing.
A scary leap but the best moves I've ever made in my very long life (79 years) have always involved jumping off a cliff of some sort. I'm with ya, buddy.ReplyDelete
And as I wander around the vast Internet network of perplexed writers, it's starting to appear to me that many are indeed making self-publishing ebooks work. Takes some doing, but it's being done.
I have been seriously thinking of approaching New York again (after publishing 23 books - some of which did very,very well) but I have been on the fence. My ebooks are doing great. For the first 3 months I had 3 in the Kindle top 5 after that I had 5 books in the top 100 Kindle Store. I still have 2 there and 2 in the top 50 at Barnes & Noble. Why would I give up 75% of my ebook sales and take only 8.5% on paperback sales? I miss traditional publishing but I can't bring myself to jump back in the fray. I would love to have an agent and publisher work with me. I'm ready to be creative in how to publish in this brave new world but if I can't do it with them I guess I'll do it on my own. Luckily, there are lots of us doing the same. Welcome to the club! We're so happy to have you.ReplyDelete
I was baffled to hear recently from an editor I know at a mid-sized house that they have been told they can't sign a new author unless the author signs over ALL e-book rights. As you say, this is ridiculous. I think you are right--and eventually the paradigm with change and publishers will look to acquire popular eBooks that have been put out there directly by authors (similar to music artists today). The trick for publishers to going to be finding the niches that can still make them money (they do exist)--the ones that are too lazy to do so are the ones who are going to be left behind. Thanks for standing up for yourself! I worry about what it means for the rest of us writers when writers (and other freelancers) don't stick up for their rights.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousFebruary 4, 2011 at 7:09 PM
I wish you the best of luck in pursuing self-publishing. While more and more folk are finding success, there are still huge numbers that don't, though this isn't much different in the paper world. It is however, a trade-off.ReplyDelete
With a good house, you're getting good editing, cover artists, copy-editors, distribution, pursuit of foreign rights, things far more difficult to come by on your own. You're also paying for time, the time to write more because you don't have to devote time to these non-writing aspects of publishing. Is the gain in royalty worth it? For some, yes. But I think the market is in such a state of flux right now that it's a very, big risk to say "screw you" to publishers because they are taking a bigger slice of the pie. I don't think a lot of writers, especially those new to publishing quite understand the time, effort, and money required. It's a big step to take, and not one to take as lightly as some may believe.
You seem to have a pretty good grasp though and know what you're getting into. I hope it works out well for you. Perhaps I am playing it safe, but I'm happy with the trade-off I'm giving to my traditional publisher. Perhaps down the road, I may feel otherwise, but for now, I'm good.
First off, I want to thank everyone for dropping by and leaving comments here today. And thanks for joining the blog, if you did so.ReplyDelete
To jnduncan: I hear you. This is not a step I take lightly. I fully understand that I will have to find a great line-editor and do a lot of graphic work myself or with vendors. But you do some aspects of these jobs with the publisher anyway and often you have little final say over covers, fonts, etc. So I don't mind getting my hands dirty here. Yes, there will be some additional work and expense, and it will take some time before I know if it was worth it financially. But at least my destiny is in my own hands here. I'll have no one to blame but me if I fail.
As far as saving time, as you know an awful lot of time is spent doing various dances with the publishers. Some of that time proves beneficial to the projects, some of it doesn't. There is also something to be said about the extremely shortened wait time between when the manuscript will be ready and when it can hit e-books compared to the time a book sits on the shelf at a publishing house waiting for its release date. Due to complications beyond my control at various publishing houses I've waited anywhere from between 16 months and four years between contract signings and publication.
I'm getting too old for that stuff.
I hope to write more about this on JAFO in the near future.
- AnonymousFebruary 5, 2011 at 3:58 AM
25% is the standard (unfortunately). I'm a bit surprised that you were in negotiations for 6 months and didn't know this - would have saved a lot of time.ReplyDelete
This really has to change but it will take more and more authors like yourself "walking away" to get this to happen.
Yes. I know I sound like an idiot on that front. But when the editor and I first began talking about getting into business with each other we briefly discussed e-books and I was told that that part of the deal would be "highly negotiable." The editor and I then set about deciding which project of mine would be best suited for the House in question. Once we did that I expanded on the material and wrote about seventy pages that he could present to the publisher. We were entering the notes phase of this process when the e-book subject came up again. A lot had changed at that House since we had begun talking and the "highly negotiable" aspect of e-book discussions was now off the table. I had been far more concerned with the writing of the book than the rapid changes happening with e-books. We weren't talking much about the business aspect of the deal, other than a general number we were looking at for an advance. The other details I usually leave up to my agent and attorneys (of course the last time I did a publishing deal, the e-book business barely existed). It was a bit of a fluke that we ended up talking about e-books when we did, and it was only because the editor brought up the subject of reprinting my first novel, Shooters, again. I was shocked to learn that this split was now the standard. Should I have been more diligent, business-wise? Absolutely. But I was more focused on writing at the time than arithmetic.ReplyDelete
Anonymous - I really think you are not helping the situation.ReplyDelete
What authors need to do is make use of Publishers services wisely and with open eyes. Writers NEED editors and marketing. While it is perfectly feasible to use independent editors and/or marketers, there is a new breed of publisher-producer that is starting to offer a much better mix of services with greater eBook awareness.
One example is Jacqui Lofthouse at http://www.thewritingcoach.co.uk.
Not every writer wants to do all of the marketing himself. Not every writer wants to 'manage' each and every step of the process themselves, while at the same time they may not want to go to one of the old fartish publishers. But smart dealing is the way to go, not necessarily demonising every publisher-producer.
- AnonymousFebruary 5, 2011 at 12:41 PM
Bully for you, I have also refused to sign any crappy 25/75 splits. Wouldn't worry about wasted time with this publisher... you know it's a good project or they wouldn't have offered the deal at all. You can put together your own team from editor to book designer to publicist and/or trade services with other authors. We are self-organizing in various ways all over the Internet. Some authors may still work with pubs for some projects for "street cred" long term or until profit stream from digital books can be built up. It's not a sure thing, but you won't know until you try. Bon chance!ReplyDelete
"This really has to change but it will take more and more authors like yourself "walking away" to get this to happen."ReplyDelete
Yes. 100%.
Great post Terrill! I wish you tremendous success. I love reading Joe Konrath's blog (also mentioned here) where he talks about this issue a great length. I too, agree that the 25/75 is 100% unacceptable. So many authors (which Joe frequently highlights) are making amazing money on their own with their stable of titles - and they control their own destiny. This is not to be underestimated. There are some super savvy authors out there making the most of this new territory - it's exciting to see and to be a part of. You've made the right decision.ReplyDelete
Rai Aren, co-author of the award-winning mystery novel Secret of the Sands
Terri - like Don Henley said, "Sometimes you get the best light from a burning bridge."ReplyDelete
I found the link to your blog on an Indie Author / Reader website that is fairly new (only started 3 weeks ago). It's terribly sad that large publishers are screwing authors over like this. You can't make it big unless you sign up and if you sign up, you make a deal with Satan. While I am not an author and have no idea of the pain and pleasure it takes to see your final product in the bookstore window, I am really glad that more of you are turning to the indie route. Good luck.ReplyDelete
"...My Two Children..." Terrill, your children will reap more of your legacy than publishers via your indie ebook venture. Am predicting you will love the control and immediacy of the indie process; after all, what you don't want to do, hire out, maybe costing you 10%...your still waaaay ahead. Welcome.ReplyDelete
Garry M Graves,
BTW, I'll be following your blog AND when you do a 'blog tour,' stop by, glad to have you.
I had to share it on my blog. Hope you don't mind. Wishing you much success even though I think you'll be just fine.ReplyDelete
I had a NY agent that contacted me about some of my work with Psychology Today. He had some pretty high list clients and wanted to work with me.ReplyDelete
I had to walk away. I see the potential in e-books and felt it would be my best move. I haven't regretted it yet.
Lee, from now on I'm e-publishing first on my own terms and letting the publishers pay me squat for hard copy rights, even if that means hard copy doesn't happen.ReplyDelete
What's this new book, anyhow?
Sounds like a plan, Scott. But what about the P.O.D. thing that guy on your short story post was talking about? Wouldn't that work as well, maybe better?ReplyDelete
The book in question was a big historical that dealt, partially, with formation of SWAT and the SIS in Los Angeles. It covers about fifty years of turbulent times and will be a very tough book to write. I put aside some other projects to work on this one because the editor felt it would be the best fit for his House. Now I will put aside this project and go back to some of the ones that are closer to completion before tackling something that complex.
Maybe the publishing industry will have changed their practices by the time I actually finish it. Actually, I'm sure they will have. But I don't see them going much above a 50/50 split on e-books any time soon, if ever. By the time they make that move everyone will think they are doing the writers a big favor. And it will still be a rip off. They are losing a lot of good will and good writers with this current policy. And I'm not talking about me here, Scott, but I am talking about you. I can't wait to see what you come up with now that you have cut lose those ties that bind.
It is really great to have a true-to-life story to read. Seeing other authors have the courage to follow through with "walking away" is how the tsunami will start.ReplyDelete
I think publishers have a lot to offer, but I also don't think they can continue treating the -good- authors in the same manner. They'll need to learn to negotiate in a more fair manner - but authors also need to realize that they run a business. That business cannot continue if they run themselves into the ground paying out unearned advances and not cashing in on their highest profit margin - eBooks.
I don't think print books will die, and I think that when publishers put their muscle behind it, indies could be in trouble. They have a lot more pull in the business world than a bunch of dissatisfied independent authors - and I'm sure they'll turn to quoting about how hard they were bashed to back up their claims.
I don't necessarily think we need to publicly bash publishers to get our point across. I'm more a fan of the quiet sit in (or in this case, walk-away) than the rioting and burning.
J. E. Medrick
You're right, J.E. Publishers run a business and take risks with writers. But writers take risks when they sign with publishers as well. And we all run our own little businesses right out of our houses - our careers. At this current e-split I think the publishers are shooting themselves in the foot. I have lots of friends in publishing and I'd like to see them all succeed. I have even more friends who are writers. I want them to be able to succeed as well. Who truly deserves the Lion's share from a piece of writing? The person who created it or the ones who marketed it and sold it? (That's an argument that could burn out of control very easily.)ReplyDelete
This boils down to a question of readers and writers and one day anyone who seeks to profit as middlemen may be out of business. The current policies have made it an easy decision for me. If the split looked like they were remotely trying to be fair it would have been a different story altogether. I'm easily seduced by flattery and cash. But as the cops say this was a SDNLR situation. (Something Does Not Look Right.) I had to trust my instincts here. It will probably take quite a long time before I know whether or not they were correct.
Good luck. Post the title and a link when you can. I've read Earthquake Weather and liked it. I'd love to read more.ReplyDelete
I can't find a way to sign up for your blog posts.ReplyDelete
Sarah, look on the right side of the page and click on the box that says "Follow" (above all the smiling faces) and it should lead you to a page where you can sign up.ReplyDelete
More power to you! This is a fantastic article and it only reinforces my own decision to self-publish more strongly. Congratulations and best of luck.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousMarch 22, 2011 at 7:16 AM
It can't come soon enough. The greed is astonishing, but then they've always been about milking the writers and keeping them half starved.
Great article and I wish you all the best.
So . . . are there ANY publishers adapting to the e-world out there? Perhaps even smaller or start-ups?ReplyDelete
Baen has their webscriptions. They offer their books - both old and new catalog in pretty much every major format. They offer free books which are usually the first one or two books in a series by participating authors and are kind of like literary gateway drugs. The also offer advance reader copies online and do bundle pricing for several books by various authors. I don't know the details of the business model, but they may be unique in what and how they offer e-books.ReplyDelete
Good for you. I wish you all success.ReplyDelete
fascinating & i wish you the best of luck. i especially enjoyed your frankness in getting to the decision, which i am sure is sound and right. i've been working with publishers as a researcher and i know they're scared - probably they're reading this, too. the best combination seems to be getting some critics and a small but loud audience behind one using print or electronic distribution & then following up & making a living using electronic self-publishing. i haven't made up my own mind yet-still at the "trying to win a contest which includes publishing" (traditional) stage. but in terms of market penetration and community, the net can't be beat - especially if you write in english but hail from berlin! cheers!ReplyDelete
I've been resisting the temptation to e-publish while my agent shops my current book, but you're pretty persuasive. If Barry Eisler can turn down a $500,000 advance to self-publish there must be some validity to it.ReplyDelete
I was very close to a deal with Viking a couple of weeks ago for my "first" literary thriller, and even though, unlike you, I wasn't lucky enough to be in the position of walking away--one top person at the house made the editor and everyone she'd gotten on board do so--I am now asking some of the same questions you've posed here. (Thank you for the additional angles and edges you provided). Are the big 6 trying to grab something they're not really entitled to? Do they have enough to offer in return--someone like me say, less well known and not established?ReplyDelete
It's a tough call.
But it's a brave new world.
I wish you much success in it.
Good article! I've been researching doing a second edition of a book I've written as an e-book and you've convinced me to go ahead and do it. Thanks!ReplyDelete
I happened on this site via John Kremer's Book Marketing Tip of the Week (questions and answers section). All good stuff and so too on this interesting site. I think... no, I KNOW I'll be back. Keep up the good work.ReplyDelete
- Adrian SelbyMay 14, 2011 at 8:55 AM
Hi, just to let you know that the sentence that resonated deeply with me was 'I know an announcement like this by a minor figure in the business will not make much of a difference in the big scheme of things'.ReplyDelete
I'm about to start a blog focusing on the challenges and decisions I make in writing my novel. After years of rejections in the nineties, I'm now a wife, three children and a tough job to the good and I'm getting back into it.
It's a different world. I'm conscious that the opportunity is there for me with e-publishing but that will be just as much hard work.
Best of luck to you mate, we're all just trying to do what we love and hope someone will give us a few bucks because they too enjoyed it :)
- MARCELO DE ALMEIDAJune 11, 2011 at 5:20 PM
I WAS APPROACHED BY TRAFFORD INDIE SELF PUBLISHING. I WAS TOLD, BY PHONE, THAT I COULD KEEP 50% OF THE E-BOOK SALES. I WASN´T SURE IT WOULD BE THE BEST ROUTE SINCE I HAVE TO PAY FOR THE PACKAGE BEFORE THEY PRODUCE, HOWEVER, SINCE THEY REVIEW AND OFFER A 'GOLDEN CUP PRIZE' FOR STORIES THAT IMPRESS THEIR CRITICS, AND SINCE YOU´ALL ARE TALKING ABOUT THE BENEFITS OF THIS TYPE OF PUBLISHING, I´M NOW CONVICED OF IT´S WORTH./P.S. THEY CLAIM THAT THEY DON´T PURCHASE RIGHTS TO ANY BOOK AND THEREFORE DON´T TRY TO STOP AUTHORS FROM DICONTINUING WITH THEM. ALSO THEY DO NOT REQUIRE EXCLUSIVITY...SOUNDS GOOD NO.ReplyDeleteReplies
- AnonymousApril 5, 2012 at 11:52 AM
That sounds like a scam.Delete
Awesome post. Very inspiring!ReplyDelete
It's really best blog. Sound like a very best.ReplyDelete
One has to think through it before coming to a conclusion on about it,beautiful site I like the header.ReplyDelete
This is a very thought provoking blog. I gained much from reading it and look forward to reading more.ReplyDelete
I believe you have made the wise choice. Short-term gains can often blind us and in those moments of visions of fame and fortune we are inclined to sign on the dotted line. I agree with you that these are not comments targeting any specific individuals. Rather this is a matter of looking at the industry, assessing the situation, and making the best move for your career. I am now learning InDesign, html, PhotoShop and other programs to publish my own material in POD fashion. This does not mean I ignore the traditional publishing houses. It does mean that I will be reluctant at best to accept any deal with certain time restrictions. It also means that I will defer any offers to temporarily sign a deal based on a publisher's promise to 'consider' the deal for future negotiations. At best, I will discuss short-term options only after the provide more explanation regarding their choice. Stick to your guns. The advent of new technology is putting publishers of all sorts in a precarious situation. They know it and are as concerned as you. Simply put, they are not sure what to do next and I don't blame them. I am looking at downloading songs and books from my internet page and have researched the implications such as piracy and quantity of sales v. return on investments. It is a lot more complicated than writing good material and passing it along at a cost to the audience. However, if we as artists bear this simple analysis in mind I think some of our fears and concerns can be quashed to degrees.ReplyDelete
Best of luck.
I am preparing a blog for my masters work in Business Education. I find much intriguing content in your posting. Would you agree to be interviewed via internet as part of my work? Please let me know.ReplyDelete
It sure sounds to me like you've made the right decision. It's the path I'm taking too as a new author. I don't want to gamble away my future earnings for a little up front money. That's a bad bet.ReplyDelete
And so, I've published my first book "Four Seasons, Four Lessons: A Parable About Changing One's Fortune" direct to Kindle. I have more in the works, but we'll see how things go in the weeks and months ahead as I learn the ropes and hone my craft.
Believe in yourself and have the courage to blaze your own trail! That's my motto. It sounds like it's yours too.


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***Some of you asked which one was an overall winner from my last post on the concealer, it's a tie for me to be honest and I actually use both sometimes, the liquid, and then put MAC's concealer on top. They both bring something to to table, for the winter I think all I need is the Maybelline one because it's lighter and I can use it without wearing foundation. With this HOT california heat, I need something that'll stay on a bit longer hence I use both at the same time; since the MAC one is a cream, it stays on longer for me. But if you DON'T need a lot to conceal much, then the Maybelline one will work just fine.
The release date for the Starflash collection is Thursday July 31, 2008. I was able to preview this collection along with the other lippie collection coming out "Lustre Twins" (Pro-Long Wear)as my local Nordie's had it already out on display. However, I did NOT buy anything because I want to use my discount as I plan on buying ALL of the eyeshadows, yes ALL. Why? Well take a look at these swatches and seriously just TRY to pick only one you want, I dare you! LOL.
So I plan on getting all of them because they are gorgeous! (Besides, the BF said I can! haha) and there are about 3 eyeshadows missing from these swatches because the MUA was using it on someone...enjoy!
Are you all planning to get something from this collection?
Possible dupes?
Mink & Sable= Milani's "Antique Gold"
Lotusland= MAC e/s in "Stars N' Rockets"
Top Hat & Sunset B.- MAC e/s in "Modern Heir" and "Trophy Pink" from the holiday Cool Eyes palette
Star By Night= MAC e/s in "Freshwater" with a little "Deep Truth"
Eyeshadows: $14.00USD
* Dreammaker - Frosty yellow gold (Starflash) (LE)
* Grand Entrance - Frosty neutral pink beige (Starflash) (LE)
* Bold & Brazen - Frosty light copper (Starflash) (LE)
* Sunset B. - Frosty mid-tone pink (Starflash) (LE)
* Lotusland - Pinky lavender with gold pearl (Starflash) (LE)
* Talent Pool - Blue green with gold pearl (Starflash) (LE)
* Mink & Sable - Olive green (Starflash) (LE)
* Smoke & Diamonds - Frosty dirty taupe (Starflash) (LE)
* Go - Frosted bronze (Starflash) (LE)
* Glamour Check! - Reddish brown (Starflash) (LE)
* Top Hat - Dirty Indigo (Starflash) (LE)
* Star by Night - Mid-tone blue (Starflash) (LE)
Kohl Powers Eye Pencils: $13.50USD
* Raven - Black with red pearl (LE) (Repromote from Smoke Signals)
* Orpheus - Black with gold pearl (LE) (Repromote from Smoke Signals)
* Feline - Rich black (LE) (Repromote from Blue Storm and Alexander McQueen for MAC)
* Mystery - Black with green and teal pearl (LE) (Repromote from Blue Storm)
Mascara: $11.00USD
* Zoomlash - Zoomblack
Pro Longwear Lustres - $20.00USD
* Coco Lust /Sweet Sexy - Deep red brown/copper brown with gold pearlized pigments
* Red Flame / Orange Flicker - Intense bright yellow red/bright yellow red with gold pearlized pigments
* Red Reflection / Mirror - Deep berry magenta with pearlized pigments/clear with white pearlized pigments
* Pink Air / White Top - Light pink with pearlized pigments/clear white with red and pink pearlized pigments
* Ripe and Ready / Soft and Lush - Bright pink coral with gold pearlized/yellow pink with gold pearlized pigments
* Gypsy Rose / Shimmer it - Berry red with gold pearlized pigments/white gold with multi-coloured pearlized pigments
* Custom Rose / Pink Virtue - Berry plum with pearlized pigments/light blue pink with silver pearlized pigments
* Boss brown / Slave to Pink - Chocolate bronze with pearlized pigments/champagne neutral with pearlized pigments
* Alta Moda / Hip Love - Deep blackened red/deep plum with red pearlized pigments
Nail Lacquer - $11.00USD
* $$$$$ Yes - Metallic silver foil (frost)(Repromote from MAC for Heatherette)
* Perplexing - Deep blue purple (frost)(New and PERM)
* Firehouse - Bright chrome red (frost)(New and PERM)
Info from: Specktra.net
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Friday, July 25, 2008
MAC: Starflash Collection (Swatches)
37 comments
- MakeupByRenRen said...
yikes! i want to get all of them too...and all of the liners :( thank goodness for the pro discount...i dunno about the lippies though, i'll have to see them in person...
- July 25, 2008 at 8:49 AM
- iamgrape1119 said...
My wallet is bleeding! Stop torturing it! LOL! I'm REALLY lemming Mink&Sable right now!
- July 25, 2008 at 9:05 AM
- Nic Nic said...
they are all so pretty, im sure they will all look beautiful on you! cant wait for all your fotds with them! :D
- July 25, 2008 at 9:19 AM
- Alyssa said...
Wow Star by Night, Mink & Sable, Sunset B., Talent Pool, and Top Hat are gorgeous! :)
- July 25, 2008 at 9:38 AM
- Gee said...
I want several of them now too lol.
- July 25, 2008 at 9:52 AM
- B said...
I'm on my 5 month make-up probation at the wroooong time. These are all very pretty and it sucks I won't be able to just haul them all. Buuuut, I can't wait to see your looks! Have a wonderful weekend!
- July 25, 2008 at 9:56 AM
- Ruby said...
What does that purple look like?
It's in a light/teal blue pot that was LE i think...i don't remember the name.
- July 25, 2008 at 10:00 AM
- Anonymous said...
darn you! i said i wouldn't buy anymore makeup. lol but now i'm eyeing a few colors! well, actually...i said i wouldn't buy anymore makeup but mac limited edition makeup. lol. so i guess i will have to buy some of these babies!
- July 25, 2008 at 10:37 AM
- Lani said...
talent pool, top hat and sunset b. are to die for!! ;)
- July 25, 2008 at 10:46 AM
- Kat said...
Top Hat looks extremely like MAC Cinders (trend/teal holiday palette 2005)
Talent Pool look like UD Shattered, maybe a tad darker but same shade of aqua with gold shimmer
I think that Lotusland is really pretty. Star by Night is pretty but so many shades of dark/mid blues that look the same on.
- July 25, 2008 at 11:09 AM
- Ethereal Prey said...
zomg those lippies! They look so pretty and awesome! *cries* i can't buy any makeup!!!!
- July 25, 2008 at 11:15 AM
- Joey said...
Aw, crap. I buy SO much MAC because of your blog, lol! I think I'm going to pick up Talent Pool, Top hate, Lotusland, and Sunset B. Oh, no. Haha.
- July 25, 2008 at 12:10 PM
- dandelionpicker said...
I think I need all of those! Very pretty. There are two of the prolongwear that I really like too :) That stuff is awesome!
- July 25, 2008 at 1:01 PM
- xoxo Jaimie said...
That sunset is gorgeous! I'll have to go get it!
Just gave you a Brillant Blog Award!
- July 25, 2008 at 2:21 PM
- Stephy said...
i think i want ALL of the eye shadows too!! well probably except the blue ones cuz i rarely wear blue.. i just think blue doesnt really go well with my skin tone... anyhow, looking forward to ur FOTDs with them! :)
- July 25, 2008 at 2:29 PM
- Tara said...
theyre all soo pretty!!! is bold and brazen similar to Coppering??? it kinda looks like it. and does Talent pool look similar to WAternymph or something else from MAC???
from the picture they kinda do...
- July 25, 2008 at 4:56 PM
- Tanya Annette said...
Gahhh!!! Top Hat is so pretty- but looks way too close to Fertile :( What's a purple lovah to do!?
- July 25, 2008 at 5:05 PM
- Anonymous said...
noooo! ahhaha whyyy did you show us this?! i've been trying to stay away from mac & now THIS! i loveeee the colors..i can't blame you for getting all of them. lucky lucky girl!
so pretty..
i'm mad. haha
- July 25, 2008 at 6:48 PM
- Bliss said...
Gorgeous colours and swatches. You are so lucky to see them early.
- July 25, 2008 at 8:09 PM
- JennBee said...
Ooh, thanks for all the great swatches and product pictures! I'm on a no-buy right now, but I sure hope those shadows stick around long enough for me to grab them! :( Ohh, MAC, so cruel...
- July 25, 2008 at 10:21 PM
- Erica said...
I love Sunset B! it's so pretty =] but I don't use bright pinks much lol
- July 25, 2008 at 10:44 PM
- Askmewhats said...
I can't choose just ONE favorite color! you are right!!! and pls don't dare us to choose ...I've got my heart pounding just thinking about the choosing! :( lol
- July 25, 2008 at 10:51 PM
- Roxy said...
I was thinking, oh maybe I won't buy too many from Starflash because they look really similar to old colors, but the swathces on your hand look sooo pretty! I really want mink & sable, talent pool, sunset b, and grand entrance! oh lordy. thank goodness I have a bunch of empty pods I can use for back2mac (I'm allowed to use those on LE e/s right? lol)
I saw your post about your little iphone adventure lol you have one too right? I can't believe you paid practically double for the bf's phone though! But I think it would be something I would do anyway. When the sidekick 3's first came out a long time ago, I bought the hubby one too! I just like spoiling people I love. I get that people do like to flaunt their relationships when they're happy, but good lord some people are too much! lol It just makes it seem like they're more focused on letting everyone know that they're together than actually being together, but to each his own! I always told myself I wouldn't get married til I was 30 but here I am now! When you're ready your ready. I heard this advice AFTER I got married, but someone said "think of ALLL the problems that you have when you're just in a relationship. When you get married, it magnifies by 100!" Basically he was saying if you can't handle those little annoying things when you're just dating, you won't be able to handle it married. And it's so funny because it's true! lol Well sorry for ranting! =]
- July 26, 2008 at 12:51 AM
- Anonymous said...
are u sure it's released at Mac Pro stores and nordstroms already? It's not on the Mac Pro site. =/
- July 26, 2008 at 1:25 AM
- christy. said...
oo ya i saw some of those colors at nordstrom yesterday. i thought they were already a part of the permanent line lol. those colors are gorgeousssssssssss.
- July 26, 2008 at 2:29 AM
- purple snowflake said...
OMG.. i love the swatches.. especially grand entrance and top hat... wish i could buy them here but the thing is the collection not out in AUstralia yet..
i'm SOOO SAD..........
i'm itchy to go over there right now ><
hehe they are so pretty..
- July 26, 2008 at 8:00 AM
- Anonymous said...
They all look so pretty! Can't wait for your FOTDs with them!
- July 26, 2008 at 8:33 AM
- Shen said...
wow!! i love all of them!!! i definitely want!!
- July 26, 2008 at 8:35 AM
- Vanessa said...
silvia it's not on the site because it hasn't been released yet like I mentioned on my post. I was just able to preview it because they had it out before its release date.
- July 26, 2008 at 10:03 AM
- Anonymous said...
wow...they are all gorgeous and vibrant colors!! i really want them but the way that MAC is letting out their collections, i won't be able to keep up!
- July 26, 2008 at 10:29 AM
- jie jie said...
thanks vanessa! those are gorgeous swatches and color. I want top hat and talent pool!
- July 26, 2008 at 7:17 PM
- ' * : . b | u 3 . : * ' said...
ooh thanks for thinking of possible dupes! The only colours that interest me are Top Hat and Sunset B, and I already have the Cool Eyes palette so now I can skip them :)
- July 27, 2008 at 11:49 AM
- Debbie said...
mac in glendale galleria are already selling them.. I got grand entrance and planning to go back for talent pool..
- July 28, 2008 at 1:57 AM
- Anonymous said...
What did you think of the Lip Lustres?
Alta Moda / Hip Love interests me the most, but Red flame / Orange Flicker and Red Reflection / Mirror seem nice, as does Pink Air / White Top
- July 29, 2008 at 4:25 PM
- kristine said...
i really love top hat and star by night!
- July 31, 2008 at 1:58 AM
- Anonymous said...
Sunset B let me down! :(
- July 31, 2008 at 11:09 PM
- J said...
* Alta Moda / Hip Love - Deep blackened red/deep plum with red pearlized pigments
Fell in love and now its DC... Any suggestions on a match... or where i can find it! I'm desperate.... Its become my signature...
- March 2, 2009 at 4:19 PM

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The kickass survival site for anyone who's ever been lied to, cheated on and left for dead.
Thursday, November 7, 2013
Marital Magic Bullet?: Experts Propose That Cheating Can "Save" a Marriage
But I worry, when experts are hailing cheating as something that can "save" a marriage, it's giving implicit permission to those considering an affair to forge ahead. After all, it might even be good for their marriage. Who wouldn't want the opportunity to screw with impunity, all in the name of self-improvement?
I understand the point these experts are making. I'm living their point. And I sing their same song post after post on this site: An affair does not have to sound the death knell for a marriage. It's a position contrary to…ahem…some others on the Web, with whom I've had my difference of opinion (and to whom I won't link because she tends to trigger those of us early on the path of healing).
I think it's important to offer up a different message to women facing their husband's cheating because, for far too long, we've been shown two options: Throw the bum out or sweep the affair under the rug for the sake of our marriage.
There is, of course, another way. To use the affair as an opportunity to deconstruct a marriage is crisis and then rebuild. But we can't gloss over just how brutalizing an affair is to the betrayed partner. We can't subscribe exclusively to an "he-had-an-affair-but-look-on-the-bright-side" way of thinking that does little for the betrayed or the betrayer. I remain convinced (though I am an incurable optimist) that if more people saw the effects of infidelity up close, they'd keep their pants on and their legs closed to all but their spouse. They'd think twice before they sent flirtatious texts to a co-worker. They'd walk away when opportunity arose, knowing that the brief pleasure simply wasn't worth the sacrifice of their partner's sense of safety in the world.
Unfortunately, given our cultural conviction that any woman who stays is a doormat and any woman who kicks him out is a warrior, we don't have much evidence of how betrayal impacts those of us who chose option 3 – to rebuild our marriage with the person who broke our hearts. We need to have that conversation too, along with the proposal that it's possible to learn lessons (incredibly painful lessons) from a spouse's affair.
56 comments:
Lessons are def learnt from an affair, although like you said it does by no means mend a marriage quite the opposite in my case it broke us down to the very core and We/ I am trying to rebuild myself and my marriage everyday. I am 4 weeks post d/day and the previous 2 weeks I felt as if I was on done kind of even keel I felt in control of my emotions and feelins Lessons are def learnt from an affair, although like you said it does by no means mend a marriage quite the opposite in my case it broke us down to the very core and We/ I am trying to rebuild myself and my marriage everyday. I am 4 weeks post d/day and the previous 2 weeks I felt as if I was on done kind of even keel I felt in control of my emotions and feelins however the last 2 days have been horrendous I've been angry, upset shattered broken and all the other emotions I went through went I initially found out. I took the upset and anger out on my husband well he is the one that caused it so why shouldn't i, I told him to leave me and go to her just because I feel worthless and useless because if the betrayal. My husband tries really hard to listen and understand and had brought my healing on leaps and bounds but how can he understand he hasn't been in my shoes to fully appreciate the pain and total despair I find myself in. I know time is a great healer and listening to do many stories here I know I will get to some kind of normality because that's where I want to be with my husband. If I could turn back the clocks I would avoid this pain trauma like the plague however the positives that have come out of this affair are many the first one being that the respect we have now is better than ever before, we look out for one another now something we overlooked pre affair. So the long and short of it is are that affairs bring many things to the table and you take from it what you will. Hope that makes sense.ReplyDeleteReplies
Yep. Makes total sense. I'm glad your marriage is more respectful. Sounds as if you survived a whole lot of pain…but that you've created something worth keeping.Delete
Sam, I am just 11 weeks post so I can totally relate to what you are saying. But I am definitely in a different/better place than I was 7 weeks ago, heck even a week ago. Things shift, though sometimes you slide back. Just remember to go slow. Don't let it crush you because there is long road. I am just getting on that road.Delete
This blog has been amazing. It is an excellent instruction manual for me. It definitely consider it as useful as the 3 hours of therapy I have each week.
I do see how we have both learned things we might not have learned otherwise.* But I don't think it was the "best thing that could have happened to me." Trauma is trauma. The survivors are the ones who learn to cope and change.
*caveat: I think I could have learned these lessons if I had read the books I am reading now. "Intimacy After Infidelity"; "Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love"; "Undefended Love"
I agree with you 100%. The affair was NOT a good thing. It was not okay. Affairs are to be avoided. My husband's affair nearly crushed my soul.ReplyDelete
Good things came from the work we did afterwards. We talked about how rebuilding our marriage would make it much better than it was before the affair. And it has, and it is. But in the meantime I've had to overcome hurt that I shouldn't have had to go through.
It's about dealing with a bad situation and doing something constructive to fix the problems that caused it and the problems it caused.
It's like when a house burns down. You might rebuild and do things better, make a better house. But that doesn't mean you're happy the house burned, causing you distress, displacing you, and destroying your cherished belongings. It just means that you CAN get through it, and you can even create a better life afterwards. You wouldn't recommend to your friends, though, that they burn their houses down.
I have more good days than bad now my h has learnt that when I do have the bad days we have to deal with them head on, i feel like this site has been my saviour, it has given me the comfort and support I much needed and will continue to need in the coming months and years. Thank you so much Elle for such a wonderful resource ��ReplyDelete
- AnonymousNovember 8, 2013 at 7:43 AM
I was once told by a very wise old gentleman, that even the worst situations can become an opportunity. If he had told me that 1-2 weeks after finding out about my husbands betrayal I would have laughed and then bashed him over the head with his walking stick( wouldn't have done really)ReplyDelete
Okay, so what opportunities have I gained from this God awful awful mess. My husband has seen how low an individual can go and is amazed by the strength and determination and kindness that I have shown him. I am amazed he never knew I was that person. Yes, I'm strong and business minded and perhaps can seem too much in control, so there is a glint in his eye which looks at me with a different kind of respect and love now.
My husband has had the opportunity to put many demons to rest and finally confront things which have stalled his emotional well being since childhood, this would never have happened unless I found out about the affair. I now have a more interesting and interested husband.
After he was " hung out to dry" emotionally, there now seems no barriers to what we can and do talk about. He was stripped bare and so was I. Almost like a re-boot on a virus ridden laptop.
His mother, who quite frankly really didn't give me the time of day, now feels terrible how obstructive she has been in the past and admires and thanks me for having the courage to stay. She has also learned that the upbringing of her son has a lot to answer for.
Sex, well, it was difficult at first, I was still in the stage of competing or thinking about the o/w, but the honesty which prevails throughout has added a certain frisson to the mix.
Hell, I still have horrid day, truly awful days, and I am on that crazy train for a few hours sometimes. BUT, my husband steps on that crazy train with me and holds my hand.
I can honestly say I wish it never happened as we did have a good marriage, but I would hate to give up what we have now.Replies
- AnonymousNovember 8, 2013 at 1:26 PM
what an amazing comment. You've seen - and they've seen, how strong you are. Huge respect to you :)Delete
Thank you for this. I love your "reboot" analogy. Too many people don't understand just how rich and healthy a marriage can be after an affair. (I would have been one of those people, frankly.)Delete
- AnonymousNovember 8, 2013 at 8:04 AM
I like the house burning down analogy. I am so thankful to this site for the reassurance it brings that there IS option 3 and it is a viable option.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousNovember 9, 2013 at 11:48 AM
In the article on Slate that was linked to about affairs actually helping the marriage, the author (Hannah Rosin) claims the person that cheated was not at fault (in that case the female), and should not shoulder any of the blame. Instead, the author faults the male for being off at war. Rosin also says that it was important for the husband to acknowledge the cheating wife's "pain" at having hurt him. As if it was so painful to her to hurt him, when she is the one who cheated.ReplyDelete
Wow. It's really, really sad that our society officially and firmly holds no one accountable for their actions. It is now a steadfast and stern rule not to take responsibility for one's own actions. Anyone looked at as responsible is looked upon as old-fashioned, out of touch, angry, ignorant, and curmudgeonly.Replies
Choosing to go outside a marriage because of problems inside a marriage is the action of an emotionally immature person. And yes, I fear that anything that proposes that cheating can be "good" for a marriage absolves those who cheat of any real responsibility. Anyone who has seen infidelity up close would have a hard time believing any "good" can come of it.Delete
- AnonymousNovember 12, 2013 at 3:30 PM
Excruciating Pain <3ReplyDelete
Hi, I just do not know where to begin. When I was pregnant of my second child my husband began an affair that lasted 7 years, or until my 3rd child was born. I was so busy with all the children that I did not realize what was going on. Okay, my husband is also an abusive type of guy. Now, he told me that he has met someone. We have been unhappy together for nineteen and a half years. He complains that I don't want to have sex with him. But, I told him that it is hard for me to feel attracted to him while he is so mean to me. He does not want to change, he is an alcoholic and he also abuse illegal substances. I wanted to leave him, but now there is a no contact order against him because he was hitting me and I called the cops. My husband took the phone and said to the cops that it was nothing. The State is pressing charges against him and I have all this weird feelings that I want him back and it feels like I miss him. Please help me get through this. Thank you in advance.Replies
Read the letter you sent me…and then imagine what you would say to someone who sent you the same letter. I suspect you would tell her that she's far better off without an abusive husband. That it might be hard to let go -- over the years she probably became accustomed to the abuse -- but that ultimately there is a better life waiting. One in which she is treated (and treats herself!) with dignity and respect. One in which she can predict from one moment, one hour, one day to the next what will happen rather than always wondering when the next punch is coming.
You want better for yourself or you wouldn't have called the police. You know that you deserve better than this. That your children deserve to live in a home where they are not scared, for you or for themselves. Where they seem self-respect and compassion modelled, rather than abuse and anger and blame.
Let the state do the work for you and ensure that he never touches you again. In the meantime, trust that you will get through this to the other side, without his poison to ruin your life.
Please keep us posted so we know how you're doing.
EP- Don't be confused by this article. You are not in a situation where an affair is possibly "the best thing that could happen to your marraige." You are in an abusive marriage-exactly the kind that is not going to improve after an affair. Please see a domestic violence counselor. It is very common for abused women to want to be with their abuser, especially after being with him for 19 years--it is very confusing. Like Elle said, you are going to be giving your children and yourself so much more of a healthy future if you can get out of this situation. This person doesn't deserve you. You can get through this, there are people who can help you.Delete
I think my husband and I have the potential to rebuild our marriage. It was dying during the last 5 years (we have been together for 18+). He is an immature but insightful man and I am beginning to see a way we can have a better marriage, and I think he is too. But I am wary because I still need closure and healing from the affair. Somedays I have clarity and positivity, and some days I am so crushed by grief. I know that the affair healing (his responsibility) needs to happen for our marriage rebuilding (both our responsibility) to be successful. But I have no idea what that would look like. I don't want to know more about the affair. I don't want to ask more questions about when and why. But I guess there are things that need airing out. But what? I don't know what closure would look like. I do know he needs to fully own his decisions and beg for forgiveness, not to mention more beyond that. He hasn't done the first two things yet. How will he get there? He is doing alot of his own individual therapy but not alot around the affair and how he has hurt me. He still has a hard time coming to grips with my hurt, especially when I start crying. I don't know if he knows how to approach it. He is making very tiny steps to supporting me and healing the betrayal. Is it just a matter of time? Not sure what order things need to happen. It has barely been a month since he sent the NC letter and 3 months since the last D-day. I think he is still in the fog.ReplyDeleteReplies
You ask how he'll get "there" -- ie. able to take full responsibility for the pain he caused and beg your forgiveness. I don't know. "There" looks different to different people. What, exactly, do you need from him? Does he know that you need it from him? My husband once said that he would make it his goal to be the man I had always believed he was -- in other words, to always behave with integrity. That was what I needed to hear. That he recognized he hadn't been that man…and that he wanted to be that man too. It was important to me to know that he wasn't just going through the motions to get my forgiveness but that he wanted the change in himself, independent of me.
Are you two in couples counselling? That can be a good place for you to talk about what you need from him in an atmosphere where an objective third party can ensure that he's really hearing you. Often these guys simply hear "you screwed up", "you're an idiot" when what we're saying is "you hurt me", "I'm scared you'll hurt me again".
The fact that he has a hard time with your crying is an indication that he's having a hard time accepting what he did to you. Your tears are recriminations. You're entitled to them, absolutely. But he needs to figure out how to be with you in those moments when you need his support, without making it about him and getting defensive. To feel your pain without letting it cripple him.
This does take a long time…longer than any of us could have imagined. You're still very raw. Tiny steps are still steps forward. Focus on what's going right and trust that, as long as you both stay on the path, you'll get there.
What to do with all the crying? I realize it does cripple him. But so often, I want to cry. But sometimes it gets to be a full on wail, which I know is scary and makes him pull away. Do I work my hardest to hold it in. I recognize that I need to get it all out and he doesn't necessarily have to be there for all of it. But I don't know how much crying in front of him is helping.Delete
If you need to cry, then cry. I don't think there's any benefit to suppressing it. And I think there's a lot of harm if you do. You need to feel what you're feeling. You need to get through it.Delete
I know it hurt my husband to see me cry. He told me so, and one time (only one) he told me he had to stop comforting me and leave the room because it was upsetting him so much. (He also said that if I needed anything, let him know.)
I've never cried so much in my life. But I didn't try to stop it. I needed it. And I told him that I was sorry, but at the same time it was something he'd have to live with if he wanted to reconcile. And he did.
But of course you have a point about not wanting to make him pull away. My advice is to talk to him about it, tell him that you NEED to cry but you understand it upsets him. Ask him to be patient. Tell him this is part of what you both need to do to heal: you need to feel and express your pain; he needs to support you through it. Ask him how he can help you!
I found that it was also important, for me, to be honest with myself and not cry just to hurt him. For a while it was difficult to tell the difference. Was I crying because I was sad, or because I wanted him to see my pain and anger? The feelings were so strong and so many emotions at once, I wasn't always sure. So I had to do some hard work to be honest with myself. I talked to him about that, too. I told him I was working to be completely honest in my emotions, to keep things on the surface and genuine, to not play any games or be passive aggressive about anything. And I told him I expected the same from him.
It worked. We've been healing in this environment of complete honesty, not just about facts but also honesty about feelings.
That's what I did, and my husband listened and did his very best. And I cried for months and months.
And eventually things got a lot better.
I'm with Mountainsailing. Cry. Cry as much and as long as you need to. But she also makes a really important point. Ask yourself if your tears are a genuine expression of pain…or an attempt to get him to acknowledge your pain. In other words, are they manipulative. It can be hard to know when our emotions are so intense and wild. But it's a valid question to at least ask.Delete
As for the rest, Mountainsailing offers up really great advice.
I agree that he needs to be there to see your genuine sorrow. He can't run from what his actions have done to you. It isn't comfortable for him to see you like that and it isn't comfortable for you to feel like this. He needs to take responsibility for the effect his actions have had on you. You didn't choose this, he did. My husband used his affair to avoid facing his failures at home and at work. I refuse to allow him to avoid watching me process this. Sometimes he tries to leave the room and I tell him that I can't escape what I'm going through so he has no right to try to escape. He usually agrees and recognizes that wanting to walk away is self-centered. He often asks me what can he do to help me through the dark days. I really have no answer for him.Delete
In the beginning he had such a hard time recognizing how wrong he did was that I made sure he was aware of my crying (we have a small apt so its not that hard), not that I put on crying (I am not much of a crier, normally). He did so much blameshifting, literally ran out of the house, got angry, got resentful. Now he is starting to recognize the deep hurt. It is still slow though. He feels mostly guilt with possibly a small drop of responsibility. I definitely know that guilt is destructive but maybe it will lead to taking responsibility. I am not trying to force that on him though. However, he has not gotten to the point of saying sorry on a regular basis. Or asking what can I do to make this better. I can't imagine that he would say "I want to be a husband who behaves with integrity." I have been the one pushing that we can work this out and acknowledging my role in how the marraige has deteriorated. But he hasn't rushed to my side to say how deeply sorry he is and wants to heal this. It is more like a slow trickle then withdrawal then slow trickle again. That is causing alot of hurt on my side. I don't know if it is just a matter of him getting further out of the fog as he has admitted to missing the AP.Delete
Nonetheless, I don't know what to ask for when I cry. I don't know if i should push him away or allow him to comfort me. None of it feels right.
I know that I need more remorse and affair recovery before I feel secure in working out the marraige problems we had before. But somehow in therapy, we keep skirting that. We aren't talking about the things that need to happen for me to trust him. So I guess sometimes I cry because I feel neglected in my pain and feel hung out to dry with his unfinished business. I want to recognize that this will take time for him and me, I am just pissed that he can own it already.
There's nothing wrong with telling your therapist that you need to see remorse from him. And that you need him to be able to acknowledge your pain and support you through it. He/she can help each of you learn to listen to each other and support each other…without letting your own "stuff" get in the way. It takes practice, and probably some un-doing of bad habits.Delete
Take some time to figure out what you need when you're crying. Do you want a hug? Do you want him to simply hold your hand? Do you want him to promise you that he never wants you to hurt like this again? And then ask yourself what he's capable of giving you. You can't turn him into someone he's not…but you can reasonably expect that he help you the best he can.
Whether he likes it or not, he created this devastation. Sure we each contribute to the breakdown of a marriage. But only one detonates the bomb that is betrayal. He needs to deal with that guilt. And there's a difference between guilt (acknowledging we did something bad) and shame (believing we are bad). It sounds as if your tears are triggering his shame, which is something he can't deal with. It's also, frequently, the reason these guys have affairs -- running away from emotions that are too overwhelming for them.
In any case, talk all this over with your therapist. State your terms of reconciliation, which include support through this hell.
- AnonymousNovember 18, 2013 at 11:02 AM
Elle - I first found your site from your "5 steps to healing from an affair" post. You said you had gained wisdom. In post after post and reply after reply, you prove that you are so wise and very kind. Every since D-Day, five months ago, I have been at a loss for words so many times, (out of character) but coming here and reading what you write helps me to verbalize the feelings that seem to have no names.ReplyDeleteReplies
Thank-you for your kind words. As you know, I've been where you are. It's the worst pain I've ever experienced (and hopefully ever will again). But it's amazing to me to look back and recognize what I gained from going through it. I never would have guessed…Delete
- AnonymousNovember 26, 2013 at 2:18 PM
Thank you for your blog! I wish I didn't know about but we all do... :0(ReplyDelete
I am 9 weeks from #1 Dday and 1 day from #2.(same OW just more sex) after he was tested for STD once already... dam him.... now he is refusing to get tested again, I sure will! He left me and kids 44 days ago ans is staying at friends house.he's refusing to come back to me and the kids.We have dinners and talk almost everyday but at the end of the day he leaves .... breaks my heart every time. He is asking this time for him to works things out... what this working out mentfor him was two weeks ago a he took 3h driving to a spa with OW and 3h back to be with me and lyed his wear abouts all the way home then got dressed and we wen toa family party like nothings wrong. i am hart broken and I have done all the things they say not to do. How can i start recovery we he cannot face me and the "issue"? I want to save this marriage but we are not in therapy....he went I didn't. I am commited to wait and try my hardest because I love him I just don't love what he is doing. Thank you. ~u~Replies
The short answer is you can't start recovery. Not until he's committed to rebuilding your marriage and willing to take full responsibility for the havoc he's wreaked.Delete
What is he saying? Does he want his marriage? If so, he needs to break this off, with your awareness (either there when he makes the call or copied on the e-mail). Short and not-so-sweet. Just 'it's over, I want my marriage, please do not contact me'. And then he needs to give you access to all forms of communication -- his phone, his computer, whatever else he might have used. Be calm and strong when you're telling him this. No begging, no demanding. Just simple and straightforward. If he wants his marriage, then he needs to end it and allow you to monitor his behaviour to ensure it's well and truly over and that he's being transparent and honest.
Until then, you're in an unsafe relationship in which you're not being treated with respect or kindness.
If he says he needs "time" (a fairly common request), you can determine whether that's something you're willing to give him. I would be inclined to say 'no'…but if you choose to, ensure that it's not just "time" to carry on with his affair under the guise of being "confused". He needs to make a choice and then stick with it. This isn't high school.
- AnonymousNovember 27, 2013 at 8:21 PM
Thank you thank you thank you Elle, and boy what a Thanksgiving it's going to be. He says he wants our marriage but also says soon soon he will have strenght to deal with my pain and rage. Right now his is out with" buddies" have been right after work. While I am getiing rady for Thanksgiving meal where is is going to come...... I keep saying NO MORE time for him and yet here I am waiting like in high school if he calls me.... so so sad. Why do I keep waiting for what he is promising, I think I see it now it will never come. He knows his actions are hurting me daily yet he's taking the risk that he will lose me. Deep down I think he is ready to lose me.....Elle you are an angle to all of us. Even night before Thanksgiving you share our pain. You truly are a strong person THANK YOU for that! ~u~Delete
I don't know that he is ready to lose you. That remains to be seen. What I do suspect is that you've taught him that he can do this and that you will put up with it. You've taught him how to treat you (to quote Dr. Phil). Now it's time to teach him something new. That you will not put up with it. That you deserve to be treated with respect. That your needs are at least as important (moreso post-infidelity) than his. But it's up to you to ensure that those needs are met…or that they are communicated in a way that's not open to debate.
You need to make it clear what your requirements are for reconciliation. Figure it out and make a list: No contact. Access to all forms of communication. No going out after work. Or whatever makes sense for you.
Then…what are the consequences if he refuses or messes up. Does he move out? Sleep on the couch? Do you serve him with divorce papers? It's not the severity of the consequences, but the inevitability that's important. In other words, if you don't want to divorce but you do want him to change his ways, then every single time he dismisses your needs in favour or what he wants, you need to deliver the consequences. If he doesn't show up for dinner, then are the consequences that you go out with a friend and he comes home to nothing/nobody? Are the consequences that you take yourself shopping for shoes? Are the consequences that he'll find the locks changed? Come up with consequences that feel right to you…and that you are able to enforce every single time. It will feel really scary at first (REALLY scary). You're trying out something that likely feels really uncomfortable to you. But you're also taking a really crucial step toward respecting yourself and your needs. You can't expect others to treat you with respect when you don't treat yourself that way.
So…get clear on what you need. Get clear on what the consequences are if he continues to put you off. And get ready to feel really uncomfortable…but to do it anyway. Have a backup plan -- a friend you can call who can give you a "you go girl" pep talk.
If you mess up and cave in, don't beat yourself up. Just get ready to enforce your boundaries better next time.
You can do this. He either joins you in rebuilding or he's shown the door. He doesn't get to have it both ways. It's not healthy for you or, frankly, for him. Prepare for pushback -- he won't like this. But too damn bad.
- AnonymousNovember 29, 2013 at 7:29 PM
THANK YOU !!! I NEEDED IT!!!! you rock ~u~ReplyDeleteReplies
- AnonymousDecember 1, 2013 at 9:30 AM
sorry to let you know but the OW won this time..he just left me to be eith the OW. I don't think he is coming back this time...or if I should even bother to wait....I put my foot down to recovery he just wasn't ready.....Delete
Hi Anon,Delete
Your situation sounds alot like mine. I tried to give my WS lots of space, but he just kept seeing and talking to the OW. Give space but lay down boundaries. I told WS, you will lose your chance to have this marriage and this family if you do not stop talking to her, cut off all contact, send a letter to end it, and give me access to your phone/email/facebook so I can block and monitor your communication. I told him I am planning on contacting a lawyer if he doesn't stop. I also told alot of people we know because his head was so deep in the sand, that he needed to face the music publically. He got the message.
You and i are in the tough spot of trying to save the marraige. We are in unusual circumstances which makes it harder for the spouse to end the affair. He hasn't had the experience of your rejection. Alot or most women will file for divorce. Often, the divorce card is enough to jar a man back to his senses. But since he knows he still has you as an option, it is harder. They will try to play it both ways for awhile since both the wife and OW are welcoming them. So for people like us we need boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Otherwise, he won't know what he is missing.
There will be pushback, blame shifting, whining, complaining, sulking. Don't break infront of him. Don't second guess yourself in front of him. Stay open to him and let him know you still love him (if you really do). Listen. Don't rage, beg, weep and explode (too much). But stick with your rules. Respect yourself, show confidence (even if you don't feel it) and he will respect you. Do your best to live as if you are not expecting him back. Get support away from others. Like Elle said, it is hard to be perfect--I caved and cried in front of him alot. But I kept reiterating my bottom line and gave him deadlines for when he had to leave if he couldn't agree to my rules. My most recent consequence was a week on the couch and a threat that after the holidays, I would want a separation. It was the jolt he needed to see me and our life as important enough to work for.
We are 3 months from D-day and my WS is finally getting it and recommitting and seeing me for the smart, capable, sensitive, real woman that I am**. But I had to try to make peace with the idea that I would have to let him go and move on if he couldn't get it together within a reasonable time frame.
**Do things that remind you of how great you are. You can be great without him. That is really the only way through this, and the only way that he may open to recommitting to you.
Is that you, u? I'm so sorry. But insisting on boundaries is still the only way forward. He was either going to cheat with your permission or cheat without your permission. At least by creating boundaries you've insisted on being treated with respect, which is crucial to your own healing. You might not see it now but he's done you a favour. You don't need someone who would treat your love like it wasn't valuable.Delete
Focus on getting through this. Take it a minute at a time. I promise you will get through this. You are worth more than a million OW. Treat yourself as such.
- AnonymousDecember 2, 2013 at 9:57 AM
Thank you thank you both. I am a house wife two teenagers, with no income so I feel totally under his power and control.., luckily he is not using it...yet.. He is saying he will take care of us.... I feel helplesss on this situation. He didn't even try to work our marriage, well first and then one day... he just can't do it and he keeps focusing for all the things thaw were "wrong" in our marriage. We had a lot of good too. I will talk to a lawer soon. Now all he has is two messed up ladies crying over him and messed up mind. He needs medical help. Day at the time , day at the time. Thank you! ~u~ReplyDeleteReplies
A minute at a time, if necessary!
He sounds pretty deep into the fog of an affair. Some guys feel as if they can't extricate themselves so it seems almost easier to just keep going. They figure their wives will never forgive them so the OW seems like the path of least resistance. And certainly, rebuilding a marriage is not for the faint of heart.
Hang in there. Take care of yourself. Get to a lawyer to ensure you're clear on what you're entitled to and so you can figure out a path forward, with or without him.
I am so sorry Anon,ReplyDelete
Get a lawyer for sure. Let him go for the time being. Most importantly please protect yourself and take care of yourself. Let him go for now and figure out what you really want. Does he deserve you, anyway?
It is helpful to learn about affair fog. Affair fog keeps them blind to what they really want. They are not able to make rational decisions so don't let him run the show. Try to keep control of what you can. As a housewife and mother you are powerful. You are valuable. You took care of the home and kids, he couldn't have acheived what he has without you. It hurts so bad to be rejected like this. But it is not your fault. You didn't cause it.
Do your best to not beg him to come back. If you still love him, let him know but don't let him take away your dignity.
- AnonymousDecember 2, 2013 at 5:27 PM
Thank you again!ReplyDelete
MBS and Elle it all makes sense now. He is acting just like in the book about affairs. Should I tell him about "affair fog" (send link on email) or will he just get mad again? Plus I am trying to not to contact him (first day).... I do love him and still want to try to recover....but I love myself more!!!! ~u~Replies
Nope -- don't send him anything. People having affairs are like teenagers -- they think they're the only ones in the world to ever feel like this. Life is so DRAMATIC. Stay calm (on the surface), cool and collected. Make it clear that there's a price to pay for his actions…and that price is that he's lost you as an ally. At least for the time being. It's not game-playing, it's about setting healthy boundaries.
- AnonymousDecember 4, 2013 at 5:42 PM
Me again, bad speller ~u~...... This is just so hard. I miss my marriage and my friend. I undestand it's all long gone but I still miss him and us. I keep repeating over and over in my mind how he left me again. One day, last Friday he commited and wanted safe our marriage and then Saturday evening he is texting with her again, Sunday morning he goes for a drive to call it off with her, (couldn't do on front of me,,, silly me to let him go..) comes home and tells that he just can't leave her. What did she say to him?? Why did he run to her again????? He is on his fog, right? I am really starting to lose hope.ReplyDeleteReplies
Yes, he's deep in his fog. And to some degree, you're helping him. Get really clear with your boundaries. He can NOT have both of you. You are going to move forward, with or without him.
What trips many of us up is thinking that, if we're doing the "right" thing, it will be easy. Or feel good. It won't. It will hurt like hell. Of course, you miss him. Of course, you want your marriage. But that doesn't mean that moving forward without him is the wrong thing. It might end up being the only thing. You want a marriage with a committed partner. Not someone who's wishy washy and expects two women to fight over him. This is intoxicating stuff for him. To have two women?? Nirvana. Ego-boosting. He's a rock star.
Except he's not. He's a cheater and he's betraying his vows and his partner. That's not okay.
So…feel the hurt. But trust that it won't last forever. Don't hold your breath. Stick to your boundaries (you're right re. letting him break it off on his own. He needs to do it simply -- "I am working on my marriage and will have no further contact with you." and with you present). Don't be accommodating or easy-going. He's cheating on you, for God's sake. Get angry. Stand up for yourself. You do NOT deserve this. I'm not saying that you go batshit crazy, just that you refuse to be treated like runner up to the prom queen. If he wants the benefit of a lifetime with you, then he'd better smarten up. And plan to do a whole lot of work to make up for what he's done.
Uh, sooo I have to eat my words. Or some of them. My husband has been telephoning his AP since the "no contact" letter I made him write in mid Oct. I had asked him numerous times to tell me if he was contacting her and he looked me straight in the face and lied, numerous times. Her estranged husband finally emailed me to tell me they were talking, as recently as yesterday. I feel so utterly humiliated but not defeated like I was when I first found out. I am a bit relieved to know who I am dealing with and what he is capable of. Our relationship had been going too well and I was feeling like the other shoe was about to drop. Well it did and thus ended all the good work we have been doing for the last 2 months. I don't know what else I feel, but do I feel sorry for him for his lack of integrity. Sad to know that my children have a self absorbed a$$ as a father. I don't think the affair was rekindled, he just has an addict personality and has a hard time saying no to thrills and feeling high. He claims he is obsessed and can't control it. The calls were more like check ins and keeping tabs on her--she just got herself a boyfriend BTW, 2 months after the NC letter and still living in the house with her estranged husband--a real class act. My husband still has good qualities and I believe in his capacity for growth. But I also know know that he is also very capable of self sabotage and mental gymnastics (my favorite phrase from Elle). In other words, a very, very damaged individual.Delete
Still letting it sink in but I am all for drawing a firm line (not sure what it is yet) but planning that he will have to go. Not sure if he has it in him to be better than this. sigh.
You don't have to eat anything. I'm sorry he's acting like such an idiot.
You sound incredibly calm and strong, which is good. Think of the first D-Day as a warm-up for the big game, which is now. You know that you will not tolerate this behaviour. You know that begging and pleading isn't going to work. He needs to absolutely understand that everything that really matters to him is threatened if he doesn't pull his head out of his ass. If he's acknowledging that he has an "addictive" personality, insist that he get himself into therapy or into a 12-step program, or both.
So…yes, a very damaged individual. Draw your firm line. Take time to figure out what it is and what you can reasonably live with. The rest is up to him. I hope he rises to the occasion.
Thinking of you at this difficult time x x
- AnonymousDecember 10, 2013 at 7:58 PM
MBS, boy what a holiday's we are going to have.... I am sad to read your new posting.. I am having a sobbing free moment and enjoying it, hopefully I can sleep tonight and hopefully tomorrow I don't cry all day...... let's hang in there together all this support on this blog is really helping me thank you all.until my saga (soap opera) goes on ~u~ReplyDelete
I think he may have realized he hit rock bottom. OUr therapist laid it all out. If he slips again, there is no chance of recovering our marriage. The next day he started 12 steps for love and sex addiction. He is talking to his friends. He is finally saying the things I was waiting to hear. He wants to go deep in his issues. He sounds way different than I ever heard. On my part, I am not doing the talking or the directing. I am hurting the situation by trying to push, prod and drag. Just insisting on my bottom line for safety, honesty and transparency. But otherwise I am taking my time, listening, doing yoga, and crying. Lets see how long my Zen act will last.ReplyDelete
Still waiting to see if the other, other shoe will drop (its a four legged animal here :). I do still believe is is capable of self awareness but has to be proactive about getting over his hurdles.
Thank you all for your kind words of support. They are keeping me from punching him in the mouth.Replies
One of the hardest parts for me was not micro-managing my husband's recovery (have I mentioned I have a bit of a problem with control??). Letting go felt terrifying. But it was ultimately liberating. Wow…to actually let other people do their own thing without worrying they would do it wrong. To realize that taking care of myself is a full-time job. It, eventually, felt great. So stick with your Zen act as long as you can. If you slip, no worries. Just get back at it. You'll be amazed at how easy life can actually be. Not that bad things won't happen…but realizing that hanging on tight doesn't stop them from happening. And that you've got the resources to handle whatever comes.Delete
As for punching him in the mouth, no doubt he deserves it. But channel your inner Ghandi and opt for non-violence. :)
I am realizing how important it is for betrayed spouses and cheaters to rid themselves of opinionated people during this time. Most people subscribe to the soulmate fiction and fall into the hollywood romance of illicit relationships. I just learned that in talking to his guy friends, my husband was getting very different takes and feedback on his affair. One of his friends who is recently divorced, was feeding the "soul-mate" fantasy in their conversation. My husband admitted that it helped feed the "love" addiction (as did Google and Facebook) which contributed to him still calling the OW. He owns his behavior but when you are vulnerable and weak, your mind can easily be contorted and twisted.ReplyDelete
An acquaintance of mine suggested to me that maybe our relationship had run its course and we just needed to move on, and others imply that maybe people aren't meant to be monogamous. If people are bringing such beliefs to you, it can hurt your recovery. It is so key to get rid of the the naysayers until you know what you want.
- AnonymousDecember 22, 2013 at 9:56 AM
I believe is true an affair could save a marriage. It has been 9 months since d - day and we are going strong our communication has gotten a lot better but there is only one things it is still bothering me and is the fact that he doesn't want to have sex because he says he doesn't feel it and he needs time it is discouraging at times and it angers me sometimes but I don't know what to do....any thoughts?ReplyDeleteReplies
I can imagine it's quite hurtful for you to have him reject you sexually after betrayal. Sex can be a great way to reconnect.Delete
I'm curious what he's not "feeling it". Is he still shame-filled about his actions? Has he worked through why he cheated in the first place with a therapist? I suspect there's something more than simply "time" needed.
- AnonymousDecember 23, 2013 at 7:37 PM
You think??....Our relationship was really bad prior the affair we had a lot of problems so he is I guess trying to get over it ...we hurt each other and our communication was completely lost....now things have changed we are definitely closer than ever but sex is not as often just in the beginning was a bit weird he was a bit aggressive not in a bad way but it was different then it stopped....it has been almost 2 monthsReplyDeleteReplies
At two months there's still a lot of pain to wade through. That you can both be honest about what was wrong in your marriage is a good start. Give it time, continue to communicate with each other. I suspect the sex will improve as the raw pain diminishes.Delete
- AnonymousDecember 28, 2013 at 6:56 PM
Thank you so much you are a great inspiration for other my like is finally getting together and closer communication I also definitely improving as well as trust it just one piece missing and is sex.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousMay 27, 2015 at 10:41 AM
I'm very thankful to you for saying this. While my husband and I are working to build a stronger marriage, I am never going to think that his cheating and porn addiction were a good thing. We may have made something good come out of the whole mess, but that doesn't mean the betrayal was in and of itself a good. I think people try too hard to make that case.ReplyDelete
I like your sense of realism. That you have rebuilt a better marriage, that you are happy you stayed with your husband, but you aren't going to pretend he did you a favor by cheating. I think that takes it too far.
Way too far. While I can see that I've grown in ways that, frankly, are good, I would have preferred to NOT have to go through hell to get there. The negative impact of betrayal lingers on for a very long time.Delete
- AnonymousJuly 5, 2015 at 10:38 AM
I also have had 4 d-days I know that in its self is crazy. The first while we were dating there was some sexton exchanged between my husband and another woman it supposidly lasted for a month then he called it quit I guess he was tired of it because when it quit i found out quick through the grapevine. He lied for 4 months about it and said it wasn't true then at the worst time a day after I had surgery I found out it was true he asked for forgiveness and I gave it and it will never happen again....so here I am today about 5 and a half years later and he did it 3 more times. The second d-day was June 18 2014 about 7 weeks after the birth of our son I found some text exchanged between him and Google eyes (she is a fairly ugly person inside and out) she had been in out life since the beginning of our relationship a "friend" only after I seen those text I found out during my pregnancy they had been carrying on he denies sex and she won't talk to me at all she is also married and doesn't want to hurt the relationship hers. So I had realized at that time the affair took a lot out of me it took my feelings of belonging and my sexy. See the night I finally found those my husband was to wake me up so we could have intimate time together so I stead he traded me for her. So time goes on by September 24 2014 I found more text from another woman where he called her baby and talked to her about his business and I had later found out when he went out of town for business he text her over two hundred times a day me and my son got 6 text the whole three days he was gone. When I confronted him about the text and relationship he went ballistic I took a fairly good beat down he threatened to take my son due to I was diagnosed with post part depression during this so I was scared very scared I thought it was a possibility he could so I stayed he lied and said I made a big deal out of nothing and that it was a test kept saying that for nearly 8 months till April 25 2015 which also happens to be the day after my birthday and the day of my our sons birthday when I find out that between that night and morning he had 160 text sent to yet another woman. He didn't understand why I was so mad and again it got crazy at home and he tried to kick me out. Now I am having all kinds of horrible feelings. I feel used betrayed and I am afraid I am starting to out and out hate him I don't want to hate him we have a 14 month old but I don't know what to do anymore. He has made some change he quit running with the people that kept him around other women but he hasn't came to terms with why I am distant and cold and I am having a hard time not being distant and cold that is for sure sometimes it comes back in waves he also has a porn adiction that now totally flattens me. What do you do when they don't seem capable of stopping he says nothing physical happened between them but I don't know. Hel0ReplyDeleteReplies
You are in an abusive relationship. I think you know that. I think you wish it was different but wishing something was different doesn't make it so. You need to see a lawyer and get clear on your rights. A husband can't take a child away from his mother because the mother has suffered post-partum depression. That's simply not true. It sounds as if he controls you through threats and intimidation. I'm unclear when you say you "took a fairly good beatdown)" whether you're talking physical violence or emotional violence.Delete
Sweetheart, this is incredibly unhealthy for you and your child. He has shown you repeatedly that he won't stop, despite promising he will. He has shown you repeatedly that what he wants is more important than you what you need. How much more do you need to know?
Please...see a lawyer just to get clear on your rights. And then get yourself to a counsellor to help you through this. I think you should leave him (and I think you should tell the husband of the Other Woman he was texting) but I suspect you'll ignore that advice.
So, at the very least, find a counsellor -- someone who can build up your emotional strength. You need to develop really strong boundaries around what you will and will not tolerate. It's the only possible way for you to find any happiness.
I wish you strength and determination to get your life back.
- AnonymousNovember 12, 2016 at 11:18 PM
I found out about my husband's infidelity on Christmas eve two years ago 3 days later I found out I was pregnant. We had only been married for a year. Two years later I feel exhausted nothing is getting better and I can't get my life together I'm a stay at home mom and have no support outside of him. Lately I've been thinking of just ending it all and taking my daughter with me.
I'm really tired, there are no women's shelters in South Africa and so I have nowhere to go to. My family isn't helpful. I'm just tired


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