text:
Don't apologize for shit, Quint.
That's the Dems problem. We apologize. "Oh, sorry to ruffle your feathers." "Beg your pardon, but you're stepping on my rights." The Neo-Cons don't apologize. Ever. I'll be damned if I feel sorry for pointing out the obvious. Oh and anyone making fat jokes about Moore - it just shows you don't have a real argument. Resorting to name calling will really get me to listen your point of view. Moore's belly is the size of Rove's forehead.
Mining your best work for an unnecessary sequel.
If we are going to accuse Bush of lying then why celebrate a fellow liar like Michael Moore? He has made a career out of editing footage together to his advantage. Most of his documentaries can be easily torn apart with just a little research. Anyone who treats his shit as fact obviously isn't thinking for themselves, or looking into it. Anyone seen "Michael Moore Hates America?"
Why, so many americans seem to hate Michael Moore. At least he's up trying to do something about an issue he believes in, regardless of his tactics or tricky editing. There is alot worse out there to hate. Though I guess, 1 Michael Moore film is to neocons what 10 seconds of Fox News is to libs.
"At least he's up trying to do something about an issue he believes in, regardless of his tactics or tricky editing" Uh, yeah. That's just it in a nutshell. It's Bush we're talking about here, the last thing you need is tricky editing and tactics to make him look bad, yet Moore relies on it with every single one of his films.
Have any of you idiots worked in Hollywood? Not everyone is a liberal. And why is it that Conservatives bash Hollywood but they freaking love Reagan. They liked Mr. Heston too. I could go on but more than three sentences in a row tends to confuse you people.
I'm a Conservative and I love Hollywood. Not a Heston fan, but didn't hate him either. I understand that all of Hollywood is not liberal, but from what I have heard, a majority are. I mean come on, it's California, one of the most liberal states in the nation.
michael moore makes the wingnuts crazy...cuz hes right...the bush administration has been the largest criminal organization in the history of man...look at all the fucking repugs not running for reelection...why? cuz they got theirs and now they can all retire to the bahamas...and bush will kick back on his ranch and laff as the country crumbles around him...keep speaking the truth mike
died in their own feces having no clue who they were or where they were....its called karma, bitches....hahahahaha...may all the wingnuts be sent to gitmo by our next prez....BARACK OBAMA....GODDAMN AMERICA
died in their own feces having no clue who they were or where they were....its called karma, bitches....hahahahaha...may all the wingnuts be sent to gitmo by our next prez....BARACK OBAMA....GODDAMN AMERICA
Largest Criminal Organization? I'd love to hear what evidence you have to back up a claim like that. Or how you'll explain that it's bad that Bush lies to the United States, but it's okay that Michael Moore lies to the world. Take all the time you need.
i saw michael moore hates america...what a self serving pos that "doc" was...FUCK OFF WINGNUTS...YOU ALL HATE AMERICA
and all you haters ought to get a frakking camera and make your own doc. a suggestion tho - don't think you're being clever by making michael moore your subject matter. 1. it's been done. 2. he's really just the messenger. 3. if you think he's so frakking full of it, do your doc about how bush was right to lie us into war on borrowed chinese money, tear up the constitution AND the magna carta, and borrow from the chinese to pay the arabs so we the people can rack up record debt while exxon-mobil racks up record profits, halliburton racks up no-bid contracts to give our troops sewer water to bathe in and drink (through subsidiary kbr), and our neglected infrastructure crumbles. and now that i've gone this far, i realize i've just started. a movie, hell, moore could pull a ken burns with this material and have enough left over for a couple of sequels.
May 14, 2008, 3:36 a.m. CST
by Alice Cooper Stalker
...they've all been fictional Michael Moore fantasy films. I liked Roger and Me.
he's borrowed that much of it.
even if i provided the facts here, you wouldnt care...you are another el druggo/hannity/olufa boy listening wingnut....you still believe that everyone can become rich, so its ok for the rich and powerful to screw everyone else, cuz someday, you are the one who is gonna be doing the screwing...and when you wake up at 70, trying to make ends meet on your paltry social security check, then you will be saying...oh why didnt i listen to bacci...AND JUST FUCKING KILL MYSELF BEFORE I BECAME A BURDEN ON ALL THE GOOD LIBERALS WHO PAY THEIR TAXES TO TAKE CARE OF ME
Global warming, my ass (and movies) stink. Heh.....
Show the End of the 1st movie with the whole, "fool me twice" bologna. Then lead into, "SHAME ON US!", then show a montage of every wonderful occurence during Bush's 2nd term. Moore, if you're reading this...please include a clip from South Park where they have to choose between voting for a Giant Douche or a Turd Sandwich.
Michael Moore's films are great if you are a liberal because its a platform for you to agree with. For the rest of us, it's pretty much propaganda. It's well documented that the man will do everything in his power to get his films made and seen, even if that means lying to the American public. Take this talkback. As far as I can tell I'm the lone Conservative. I'm keeping it logical and calm. Then there are the rest of you with your FUCK WINGNUTS. Typical liberal reaction. It's funny, because you love to watch his movies, but some of the people in his movies feel victimized and mislead after seeing the finished product. I'm not here to defend Bush, because I am sure we would agree on a lot of what is said, but wow, like I said before, only a coward would twist the facts to make him look worse.
they are evil...they will ultimately make you into a tree hugging, pot smoking hippie
That shoulda been a quote said by Michael Mo....ahh forget it.........
Wow, so drawing conclusions much? Here is where you and I differ. I'm not a walk this way, talk this way liberal. You believe what your party tells you to, even if it means slandering someone else. Most of my views lean towards being a Conservative because I actually use my brain and form my own opinion. It's very typical of people like you to avoid the questions I asked. Shall I ask them again, or will you just get out of them with more insults? And yes, I really wanted to hear your answers.
Why do you fear so hurting anyones delicate feelings in the slightest? It's your only flaw as an editor here. You're a smart guy. Pick some deserving targets and fire. Taking a worthy stand feels good and puts hair on your chest....or something.
to find an entire list of Moore's bullshit lies. My favorite has to be the following from "bowling for columbine..." "LIE: Moore sympathizes with the "little boy" at Buell Elementary in Michigan who just found a gun in his uncle's house and took it to school to kill a girl. Moore says "No one knew why the little boy wanted to shoot the little girl". (TRUTH: The "little boy" was the class bully and was already suspended for stabbing another child with a pencil. Since that incident, the "little boy" also stabbed another kid with a knife. Also- the "uncle's house" was a neighborhood crack house. The uncle and the "little boy's" father were, at the time, serving time for theft and cocaine possession. His aunt earned her living from drug dealing. The gun was stolen by one of the uncle's customers and purchased by him in exchange for drugs." And we gave him an Oscar? Now Bacci40, I'd ask you if you knew what a documentary was, but you'd just call me an idiot and cling to your copy of "The Inconvenient Truth." So I did the work for you. A documentary is: Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film. So using your crayon, please show us all how Moore makes "documentaries?"
you want answers? ok...the bush administration used the justice dept as the political hatchetmen of the republican party...i suggest you google governor siegelman...and thats just one case...im not sure why i have to provide any answers, it appears that during our former ag's senate and congressional hearings, you were too fucking busy thinking for yourself to watch cspan...shall we go on to the recent evidence that alledged independent military analysts, working for all the networks were bought and payed for by the pentagon, and therefore all their opinions skewed towards the bush administrations versions of what has been occuring in iraq, afghanistan and iran? the bush administration is knee deep in making sure their buddies in the military industrial complex make billions off of a never ending battle for truth, justice and the criminal way...need i go on? or will you say im just being fed this by liberals who hate america? hey, why dont you tell us the one about how, if we only drilled in anwar, we wouldnt need foreign oil anymore...of course, there is plenty of drilling going on in california, but too bad that all that oil is sent to japan...i really dont know why i bother, i expect you now to off and tell me how we saved the now dead iraqis from the rape rooms that sadaam had
I'm being truthful here. I'm not a guy who works in Hollywood, nor do I pretend to be. If you do, then hey, good for you. Never said I was right, but then again, I never said that all of Hollywood was liberal in the first place. I think the confusion comes into play when you have people, like John Cusack, who are involved with Hollywood come out and give their opinions. I'd say a majority of celebs that speak out happen to be liberal. Do you disagree?
Seriously? I heard that there are liberals in Hollywood? You heard? From who? There are liberals everywhere! In every city and every state!!! CA is really liberal. That is a typical statement from a typical yokel who has never left his zip code. Do you think we're all running around smoking crack with prostitutes and having abortions in the street? Gee, Conservatives never fuck up. They never do drugs (bush) get divorced (McCain) have affairs (Gingrich) and neither do their constituents. There are no signs of drugs, sex or crime in ANY of the Conservative Southern states. That's why Hollywood tapes COPS there. Morons. The only problem with democracy is that EVERYONE gets to vote, event the idiots.
You're unbelievable, but finally you partially answered my question. Good for you. How many insults did you fight back? How about having a logical, mature conversation? I've gotten my perception from just what you've shown so far, which is a lot of anger, an unwillingness to answer questions without being a complete and total fuckhead, and the comfort of being able to hide behind your keyboard. Your accusations on me? Not sure where you came up with those. You also didn't answer my second question, so I'll ask again. Why is it bad that Bush lies to the United States, but it's okay that Michael Moore lies to the world? Let's see how many four letter words you can leave out this time.
in regards to bowling for columbine,and that one specific story, you (and whatever moore hater sight) got the point wrong...it wasnt that no one knew why the kid killed the little girl, it was that the system failed the mother and the boy...the mother was taken off the welfare rolls, and put on a work program...where she had to go by bus miles to work a minimum wage job...so she had to leave the boy in that crack house...the system failed because there was no day care, affordable housing or a real job program...the system failed because nobody saw that the kid had serious problems and needed help...bullies arent born, they are created...but of course, you are a thinking conservative and you already know that...just as you know that if we ended the drug war tomorrow, and treated it as it should be, a health problem, not a legal problem, we would be saving billions of dollars a year in manpower. and would open many more jail cells for the real criminals...like scooter libby...a traitor to his nation...or like karl rove...a fat closet gay traitor to his nation...
Wow, so are all AICN Liberals as ignorant as you and Bacci40? I'm Conservative yes, but I still support your love for one another. I think we have a miscommunication, and it's okay, I'll take the responsibility on this one. What I should have said was that I believe a majority of Hollywood are made up of liberals. I gave a clear example of one way to come to that conclusion. You made yourself look ignorant with your response. Liberals in Hollywood their own website. thehollywoodliberal.com I don't see one for Conservatives. I also am well aware that people are mixed everywhere, but at this point you have yet to show me that I was wrong when I said that Hollywood may be made up primarily of Liberals.
im sorry, but when someone says, prove to me that the bush administration has behaved in a criminal manner, it just means that for the past 8 years, that person has closed his eyes and ears to reality, and that is when i choose to no longer engage in "mature discussion" its like the argument i had today with a client, who asked me why is was still for obama, after the whole wright thing...i asked that person, if they had sat down and listened to all the sermons wright has ever given...that person said to me, no, but ive heard his statements...statements taken out of context, but when placed within the full 45 minutes of a sermon, come out totally differently...for that, i can not have a mature discussion...for i cannot sit and talk to people who remain purposefully ignorant, just so that its ok for them to hate...its like discussing anything with a person who still believes that hussein had something to do with 9/11 and al quaida..which apparently at least 30 percent of your ignorant ilk still does...i have neither the time, nor the inclination to engage in rational conversation with the ignorant and irrational
That's okay, I've got a laundry list of Moore's bullshit. Care to give me an explanation for every single one of them? After all, it is so easy to blame the system andd use it as your scape goat for everything that goes on in your life.
Now we're getting somewhere. I'm damn proud of you. So, I asked you to explain your reasoning, or provide evidence for making a statement regarding the Criminal Organization. I never said prove. You through a hissy fit for nothing, big guy. You also make a valid point about Wright. Most people don't know their ass from a hole in the ground on that issue. I'm not one of those people. I've seen the full speeches. I made it a point to. Think for yourself, remember? And I still think Wright is a nutjob. Anyone who thinks AIDS was created to kill black people is a nutcase. I put him on the same level with those who think Bush id 9/11. Interesting theory, but that is all it is. I like Obama. You assumed that I did not. I think the man needs to elaborate on change a little, but other than that, distancing himself from Wright the way he did was beautiful, and probably just what he needed to give Hill-Dawg a political smackdown. So you and I agree 100% on that issue.
Damn you neo-cons
That was nice of you to apologize to the conservative talk-backers!
Why is it bad that Bush lies to the United States, but it's okay that Michael Moore lies to the world?
 because moore makes films, bush is in charge. that's why it's ok.

Damn You Michael Bay
Still not okay. In charge or not in charge. What I don't get is how some of you claim to see through Bush and all his lies, but are too stupid to see Moore's movies for what they really are. Weird.
they get people talking. that's why i don't mind him twisting the truth.
he has an agenda, so what.
magna cum laude from Harvard Law School. I find it doubtful that Wright could "mold" such a luminous mind. And you want change? Check this out: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/...everything is laid out for you. Enjoy...or vote for McCain and get the same shit that Bush has been peddling. Your choice.
i don't listen to him, don't live over there
Are just preacking to the choir. Don't care either way. Repugs have FOX "News"...fair trade.
Yeah, you're right. Lying to the American public is okay as long as the message is a meaningful one. Doesn't matter what your conclusions are as long as you can make up enough shit along the way.
as long as you are not in charge of the world.
 but your leader lying to you, that IS different.
 remember, michael moore is just a man. he's not in charge, he's just exercising free speech. he doesn't have to be right, or telling the truth.
It doesn't work like that. Either twisting your words is okay because you have an agenda, or its wrong. You can't have it both ways.
it's yet another good use of the term 'fuck bush'. heteros everywhere high five.
Doesn't matter if you are in charge of this country (Every head of each country lies) or making movies (Moore's work has been shown that the man lies by many). Get used to it. Been happening for centuries.
that your leaders should not lie to you?
But its been happening since day one and its never going to change. Lying is a political staple. Obama and McCain would be no different.
Of course it would be nice. It just ain't going to happen. Anywhere or anyplace. It is a nice dream. Same thing can be applied to a documentary. Don't want to be lied to also. Both sides claim that truth is the agenda. Don't get either from Bush or Moore.
and that, even though it pains me, by the nature of his job that bush is more important than moore? in a higher position, and therefore his lying is worse than a mere filmmaker?
of course it's not going to happen! i realise that!
MrFan's previous response pretty much sums it up for me. Its not a matter of who is the bigger liar. They both lie. They are both wrong for doing so. I can admit that, but sadly, most people here cannot.
agenda or not, moore produces entertainment, bush doesn't
 at least not intentionally
LOL. Love that line, Smor. But lets be clear. Moore claims to produce documentaries. CLAIMS.
i agree with you that people get WAAAAY over the topp on the talkbacks and become blinkered.
and yes, they both lie, of course they do, people lie
i just think a leader lying is worse than a documentary maker.
i take his films with a pinch of salt, but am glad they are there because they provoke debate amongst people.
if he makes people think about politics in any way, surely that is a good thing.
i couldn't agree with you more. however, there are those people who take moore's word as fact. there is no debate because in their minds, there is no question. that is my problem here.
Producing a poor documentary is not entertainment.
I have no problem with someone speaking out for/against a situation. Good for Moore or for anyone for that matter. The thing that bothers many people is that he has been proven that he has lied to try to get his point across. Sticking to the facts would have made his arugument more stronger. Lying to people about important items is not enteretainment. I find it sad.
Also, sometimes Bush can be just as enteretaining as Moore.:)
yes, he stretches things to produce a film, but he's deliberatly aiming for mass distribution, for entertainment.
it's what the newspapers do

Have a good day guys. Got to go to work.
Alright man, take it easy.
well, technically it is entertainment. people have been entertained by it.
lol
and yes, i wish he would stick to the facts. he's in a position where he can do now, he has an audience and distribution. he shouldn't need to twist things to hook people. He's an entertaining guy and he should remember that.
F9/11 was the best doco since JFK.
I'd be comfortable if he called them Mocumentaries. But I'm out of here to, Smorg. Thanks for keeping this debate grounded in reality.
that you have all been failed by our educational system. Hopefully the Obama administration will do better by your children.
The same educational system that teaches college students that Bush was responsible for 9/11. Way to go.
Moore just states the obvious really. Bush is a lame duck president surrounded by the wreckage of a country that was doing quite well before he got in. What Moore's belly has to do with economic mismanagement, invading iraq, or any other Bush screwup is beyond me.
That's what I call a heavyweight ticket.
Who said Bush is responsible for 9/11? What have you been reading?
Come on BSB, I know you've heard of the Loose Change Conspiracy Theory.
I agree that Moore states the obvious, but only to informed people. In a nation where even a minority believe Saddam had WMDs (and a few of them inhabit these talkbacks, to my everlasting bewilderment), the obvious truth still eludes the ignorant.
Yes, but none of the theorists hold Bush personally "responsible". The full truth of 9/11 is still a mystery. The Commission Report was a whitewash. Bush and Cheney refused to testify under oath, allowing themselves only to be questioned together, and behind closed doors. Surely you believe the country is owed a more conclusive investigation than the one we got? Even a thorough forensic investigation was prevented with the remains of WTC shipped off to China as scrap within days of the event.
oh I'm off.
Forgive me in advance as I can't respond to everything you said (wif I don't sleep now it's over for me at work...and on my birthday no less). I should have said that "our" government was responsible, and not Bush alone. I just think the theory provided in the film has been shot down. Sure, a better investigation would have been nice, and maybe one day we will know the truth. I just think that teaching any "reason" for 9/11 at this point is just irresponsible because you are right, it is still a mystery.
Why can't all AICN conservatives be more like you? I'm enjoying this debate, even from your end, even if I'm a liberal and I disagree with you on some stuff. You've kept the conservative side of this discourse refreshingly clear thinking. My only regret is I'm way too tired at this hour to get involved in a healthy discussion. But seriously, come back for the next one.
You're a scholar and a gentleman.
But Moore still got a lot of things wrong. Universal health care is a logical protection for any free people but it has some major problems when put into practice and Moore really missed his opportunity to point those issues out.
yes, nice to see someone maintaining their composure.
Wow, seriously? Thanks man! I will be back on this talkback later today at some point, and dammit I wish I didn't have to work today as a result of this. But seriously, thanks. I love to debate politics, especially with people like yourself, BSB and Smorg, who aren't going to jump to conclusions right away an at least get some really good arguments (from both sides) in. Thanks for the b-day wishes BSB.
Because the one mystery the theory conveniently leaves unquestioned is how the fuck a conspiracy of that magnitude, hundreds of people involved, and not ONE SINGLE leak coming from any direction? What kind of illuminati Cobra Commander shit is that? Give me a break. It's literally beyond the realm of possibility. They couldn't pull off Watergate without a whistleblower let alone killing thousands of Americans. If there is a truth we don't know, it's certainly not so simple or black and white as that. It's absurd. See....fuck now I'm involved.
Now so easy to walk away no matter how tired you are! *just turn off the computer, SJBKAT, just do it* ...dammit...
This new movie is gonna run 3 or 4 hours just to cover all the main scandals and fuck-ups this administration has perpetrated on the American people! I can't wait. I just wish he could have it ready by the November election just so some more comparisons could be made to McCain. But McCain is another story altogether. Moore should do a movie on how McCain has sold his soul and compromised most of his "maverick" philosophies just to pander to the wingnuts who still think Bush is a good ol' boy.
Damn that Michael Moore, standing up for everyone's interests. Damn him straight to Hell.
Liberals don't work with FACTS, merely rhetoric force-fed to them by the liberal media hegemony in this country.All we ever hear is "Bush Lied!" About what exactly? The next response is "There were no WMDs in Iraq". Who was the first person heard to talk about WMDs? Your beloved president Bill Clinton! He announced that Saddam had weapons and was a threat to the world and needed to be taken out of the equation. The second person preaching about WMDs was Saddam himself. remember the speech about how he is prepared to use his full chemical and biological arsenal if we attached? The man nerve-gassed his own people, I think I would take him serious! Then we hear about "Halliburton!" Out of all the companies who could do the job in Iraq, on the scale and time frame involved...there were 2. Halliburton and Schlumberger, a french company. And with France's stance on the war, which do you think would have got picked? But these are FACTS, never mind...liberals don't use them!

<quote>What kind of illuminati Cobra Commander shit is that?</quote>

Geez, you just made milk come out my nose!

Oh, and from a conservative Canuck to the folks who've been debating SJBKAT? Well done. Intelligent debate is always stimulating...um, you know what I mean.

A political AICN that didn't degenerate into name-calling and scatalogical references.

Impressive.

Most impressive.

whether or not he started the lie is irrelevant. He certainly used it.
Just thought I'd clear that up. Carry on.
Werewolves will give the sequel a whole new dimension. Maybe have a werewolf fight a killer robot.
i'm sure the talkback will resume its usual name calling soon enough!
Who gives a fuck about this hypocritical fat blowhard?
... were under no legal obligation to tell the truth? P.S From Australia To the US Re: Rupert Murdoch. Please keep him - or send him somewhere else.
Considering how many lies have been exposed that have been in Moore's so-called "documentaries", one supposes that he must eventually run out of them and start to recycle old ones.
Fahrvenugen 9/11 was hugely profitable for more, in every way . . . but especially in the financial way. Nothing else he has done as come close. Sure, he might have made a few bills on Sicko--a few--but Fahrenheit 9/11 is what keeps him in the bling while he's rolling in the Escalade. But I think he caught lightning in a bottle, there, and F9/11 Volume 2 won't do the kind of business the first one did. Still, it could be a nice piece of scratch. I can see why he'd do it.
...since Michael Moore is a communist Canadian douche bag who's hated America way long before he got the "opportunity" to focus on 9/11. He's a fat slob who knows NOTHING about what he speaks - and everyone listens to him and dubs him an edgy filmmaker/truth seeker... when he's the exact thing he claims to be fighting against... rich, white Capitalists. Such a stupid fucker.
May 14, 2008, 7:07 a.m. CST
by kevinwillis.net
Whoever said that should lay off the crack and get high on life. Perhaps you'd like it if the Dems rounded of their political opponents and stuck hot pokers in their eyes, and if that's your standard then, yes, the Democrats are a little bit milqutoast. Otherwise, they play as hardball and down and dirty as party ever has. Apologies are not the problem. Although I do agree with the sentiment that there's no reason to apologize for the onslaught of liberalism on an entertainment sight, as, naturally, in an industry about creativity and imagination and making up things that have nothing to do with reality, of course there are going to be a lot of liberals in that industry. Just saying.
Now the Star-bellied Sneetches had bellies with stars.
 The Plain-bellied Sneetches had none upon thars.
 The stars weren't so big; they were really quite small.
 You would think such a thing wouldn't matter at all.
 But because they had stars, all the Star-bellied Sneetches
 would brag, "We're the best kind of Sneetch on the beaches."
 And all those other Sneetches are lying, backwoods, inbred, war-mongering, neo-con pieces of shit. Yay, Star-Bellied sneetches!
Except for the people he attacks, the people in the industries he attacks, people who like balance and objectivity, or anybody between him and a Big Mac and fries. Seriously, he once clocked this 90 year old dude who was taking for every because he was paying with pennies at an In-and-Out Burger. Serious, true story.
fucked up country and not the shining light of truth & justice it thinks it is, i give you guys 10 years and you'll be behind China, Russia & E.U. when it comes to super power rankings
If there wasn't proof that all Michael Moore wishes to do is bury President Bush, this is it. And whatever. As for the liberal coverage on this site? I'm not really surprised. Although the John Cusack interview? Yeah, I'm not reading that. Thanks for the warning!
You won't be behind the EU
Everyone realizes that Michael Moore's movies are now pure one-sided propaganda. Too bad, because I liked Moore back in the TV Nation days when he actually fought with the truth, asked legitimate questions, and didn't editorialize.
May 14, 2008, 7:46 a.m. CST
by NomoredirtyjokespleaseweareYanks
heh heh.
This time, it's personal.
Since this discussion is one wrong side telling the other wrong side how wrong they are, I figured I should throw some wood into the fire. And 911 could not possibly be an inside job. It took too much competence and initiative to do. Two things our current administration does not have.
May 14, 2008, 8:10 a.m. CST
by The PimpDragon
which would be "op-ed pieces," not "documentaries." I enjoy Moore's films, but to call them 100% straight truth or unbiased journalism is irresponsible on our part as an audience and is akin to saying "it's true because the TV said so." If anything, Moore's a great op-ed writer who was given a camera to help make his point. There's nothing wrong with having your own views or sharing them - but that's not what a true documentary should do. Watch "Capturing the Friedmans" for a great documentary - no one side is picked, leaving the viewer to decide the truth or, more importantly, encouraging said viewer to study more themselves to make their own opinion. If more people would do that with Moore's films, instead of taking the lazy "it's true because he said so" approach, these talkbacks would be less flaming, methinks! As always, think for yourself, not the way some dude with a camera tells you to, folks!
It's whenever he opens his mouth.
Seriously, what's with all the conservative folk asking for proof about Bush's lies? Convincing us to invade Iraq was nothing but lies. The vial? Yellow cake? Artists rendering of mobile labs? All lies. Doesn't matter if some of the intelligence came from the British, it was B.S. intelligence and the CIA knew it. But since people have short memories, let's take a stroll down W's greatest hits.
"By the year 2042, the entire social security system would be exhausted and bankrupt." Wrong. Even if we don't do anything to change the current system, 3/4 of the funds will still be available to Americans come 2042.
President Bush has said Thursday that Iran has declared that it wants to be a nuclear power with a weapon to destroy people, namely Israel. Wrong. National Intelligence Estimates concluded last year that Iran stopped it's weapons program in 2003. So that's twice Bushie has ignored the intelligence his own government has provided him.
And then there's the whole SCHIP debate in which Bush made it appear as if only yuppie children rolling around at night in bedsheets composed of $100 bills would be benefiting the most. That claim was debunked time and time again, but the damage had already been done.
If you want more of Bush's lies, look them up, they're everywhere.
And then of course there are the people in his administration. Every press secretary from McLellan to Perino gives briefings that are rife with lies or half-truths. And we all know that Rummy, Cheney, Rice, Wolfowitz, et al can't go five minutes without spinning a fantastic yarn. They combined for 935 false statements (compiled by the Center for Public Integrity) about the security risk posed by Iraq leading up to the war.
And if you're still going to delude yourself and claim eveything Bush says is distorted by the liberal media, then let's at least admit he's even more disingenuous than Gore or Michael Moore with his monkeyshines shenanigans. Recently he told a reporter, "I don't want some mom whose son may have recently died to see the commander in chief playing golf. I feel I owe it to the families to be in solidarity as best as I can with them. And I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal." So that's his big sacrifice? Jesus Christ on a cracker, Mr. President, are you OK? I mean, after a 5 year hiatus, what's that going to do to your golf swing? How's about attending a funeral from time to time or greeting some of the caskets as they arrive back home? Or maybe not taking a vacation while one of our cities is sinking? Or maybe, just maybe, refusing to bill taxpayers for your medical expenses and making public the receipt where you paid out of your very own pocket?
This cocksucker is more disingenuous than Larry Craig at an anti-gay and lesbian rally.
And the liberal media? OK, you're right, the media is sooooo freaking liberal. Everyday I turn it on I see CNN, ABC and NBC hammering John McCain over his daily gaffes and I just can't watch them browbeat that sweet old man anymore.
And don't even bring up those jerkoff Democrats. Those spineless pricks didn't have the cojones to vote against the war back in 2003 because they saw the country was behind Bush and they didn't want to risk losing votes in the next election. Everyone that voted for it can rot in hell next to Bush and his clan.
Concerning Michael Moore, indeed he twists things around for his own agenda. More times than not he can be a douche. But at least he's trying to open people's eyes to the reality that Bush & Co. completely pulled the wool over our eyes by convincing us to invade Iraq, that our healthcare system is bleeding out and needs a complete overhaul and that corporations have a diseased mentality where they would rather kill people with their product and face a lawsuit they won't ever have to pay out rather than soak up the cost of a recall. His methods may sometimes suck, but if it gets a person fired up enough to go do their own research, then Moore did his job.
..is fixing the economy? He comes up with this trvial idea, (which in turn cuts social services programs and unemployment insurance just to put extra dollars in our pocket) thinking that we would all be going on a spending spree to boost the economy?
So far i have'nt seen any change as most of us have prolly deposited the $600.00 in our savings account.
Gee, how those Repubs are so smart.China owns our asses thanks the Bush regime.Way to go monkey!
This talkback is funny.
Moore became an A-list celebrity after "Fahrenheit 9/11". He obviously got used to it. He isn't going to garner the same kind of attention doing Docs about healthcare and corporations. This is a pathetic attempt to stay in the spotlight.
But that's why Fahrenheit 9/11 did so well. However, if Sicko proved anything, I think it's people are sick (due to the awful box office) of Moore's one-sidedness. This film will do worse than Sicko.
And if one of you assholes doesn't find it, I'm gonna be fucking pissed.
I really appreciate what he has been doing with his movies. Like Quint said, he is just preaching to the choir here too. The thing that I do not like about him is that he does not get "hardcore" with his facts and does not take things deeper than they should go. He has Hollywoodized the conspiracy backlot and you just can't do that. Especially when most idiots do not give any creed (bad band) to Conspiracy any way. Most people ignore or discount CT because they are fat minded, fat lazy American's who don't give a shit. You retards who fall into this category could not possibly wrap your American Idol brains around anything that is being told to you. Let's put it this way, alot of you are in for a very bad morning one day. You know what? I've come to not care about how most you tards feel about the situation in this country because you're all a bunch of followers anyway who think that you control your own thoughts. So go to the theater and wallow in your Batman Begins while you sit on your fat asses and consume bad entertainment and bad food. It's all good as far as you're concerned. P.S. I would have taken the same amount of time to write about something that would actually help you learn something but you would read it as an insult. So why not just insult you? More fun and takes less thought. THat is what you like, isn't it?
Heston took chances that no one else would take that would jeapordize his career. For instance, marching in a Civil Rights demonstration with MLK and starring in science fiction movies when he was a star himself. He left a wide body of work behind him worthy of his talent. Ronald Reagan was one of the most beloved presidents this country ever had ranking only second to Abraham Lincoln. So rant all you want and when the day is done and over, the names Charleton Heston and Ronald Reagan will live on in history for centuries with their accomplishments, whereas Bacci40 and your inane quips on a movie site talkback don't mean a hill of beans at all in the grand scale of things.
Obama should make John Edwards his attorney general & have him use RICO statutes to bring Bush, Cheney & co. up on federal racketeering charges. These pricks & their cronies in the oil industry have been involved in a continuing criminal enterprise!
...and the product is Michael Moore. As one person pointed out, his agenda would be well served by simply presenting the truth, even if it were one-sided. Instead, he distorts the facts in such a way (similar to what Gore did in AIT) that even valid points must be discarded in light of the distortions around them. Shame, really.
Somebody earlier mentioned the Wright comment and how the gov't created AIDs to eradicate black people. Now, I don't know about you but if you think about Wrights comments, the black community should be far more insulted/inflamed by Wright then they are. To me, if I were a black person, I would read this as Wright saying we aren't responsible enough in our sexual habits and drug use to limit the spreading of AIDs. I know statistics don't exactly deny this compared to the general population but wow, this really puts Wright on the same victimization, non pulling yourself up by the bootstraps ideology, of Jackson and Sharpton, which I firmly believe does far more damage to the black experience and ability to succeed in society..... That's it, just thought that was interesting. Not heading down the Bush/Moore path, been done tooooooo many times.
....about a week or two after the first one was out in theatres. I hardly see how this is news when it was announced almost 4 years ago. He was going to call it Fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 back then, not sure if he still plans on doing that.
No one gives a shit about Moore anymore, outside of the clowns who run this website (who seem to be the only people who haven't been clued in on how fabricated his "documentaries" are).
Listen, the presidency has already been decided. No one in this country see's what this "campaigning" is really all about. It's about making money and seeing who's on who's side. It's very simple folks. There is a select elite few that push the buttons in this world. You want to start with some research? Google THE BIlDERBERG GROUP. Start there. THE PRESIDENT HAS ALREADY BEEN CHOSEN. YOUR VOTES DO NOT COUNT. YOUR THINKING HAS RUINED THIS COUNTRY. Eat on that for a while. Heaven knows most of you like stuffing your fat little piggy faces. DO YOUR HOMEWORK. GET SOME INSIGHT ON THE SITUATION AND TRY AND LOVE THIS COUNTRY FOR SOMETHING OTHER THAN WHAT YOU CAN GET OUT OF IT. WE WERE BRED TO BE CONSUMERS.
God, I'd give my left nut to see that fucker go down.
You are obviously a Bush hater as any person with common sense would know that economic evidence of whether the stimulus package worked or not will not be available for months. Half the country hasn't even received their money at this point. And yet, there you are just ripping the President. Just sit back and relax to see if it works or not. If it doesn't, then rip him. P.S. Democrats had to approve this package for it to go through. So blame can go all around.
that the ultimate goal of the Bush administration was to get into the middle east and create reasons for their oil buddies to raise prices higher and higher until the American public would finally give them permission to drill in untapped locations like anwar. At which point their buddies in the oil industry set up shop in these areas and, you guessed it, make more money.
I wish I had the tenacity to sit here and type to you about all that you're obviously missing. "Stimulus Package?" Are you fucking kidding?! Do your homework idiot. This package and these refunds are not what you think they are and they are DEFINATELY not what you think they are for. A good CPA with common sense and a little time could sit down and figure out exactly how the Govt. gains and WE LOOSE. Shut the hole and get your facts straight. And as far as BUsh being the white house? It doesn't matter who's in the white house the President is a talking head for the same group of people with the same principals who choose him/her for their gain. We are nothing but an economic battery.
we've had to deal with the conservative onslaught, so now they have to deal with ours. It's the American pendulum. Also, not that I don't find Moore irritating, but I don't look at him as the polarizer. He can be manipulative (which is basically the job of any filmmaker), but he's mostly just a messenger.
You big oil bashers should look into the profitability of hedgefund companies and private equity if you want to talk about REAL profits. Sure in pure dollars, oil companies look more impressive but that's just because they are larger companies. Profits in the 7-10% range are NOTHING compared to the alternative and private investment world. Regulation is a joke and the managers take home BILLIONs individually. Probably somewhat deserved because they deliver huge profits to their clients. What's driving alot of the economic turmoil right now is the collapse of a lot of these complex investment products built on huge leverage.... And no Bush didn't cause this to your great chagrin. I wouldn't exactly say he has become the great regulator, but merely maintained the status quo as these products became more sophisticated and far more profitable creating immeasurable greed. While I love capitalism, I can't deny it doesn't foster greed, especially by those that are able to take advantage of it. Have a great one.
We fund the machine. We are like the fat little piggies out back of the farm house that the farmer continues to feed and fatten for the slaughter. We, US, we are the reason why these things happen. Get out of your little piggy pens, spit the food out and make something happen on your own. Don't rely on the farmer.
"Democrats had to approve this package for it to go through. So blame can go all around."
Agreed. Toss them out of a plane with a backpack full of silver spoons. The spineless Dems just had to give into our idiot President one more time. Jebus forbid they vote against it knowing full well we're borrowing the money and adding it to our already eye-popping tab. Talk about a check you wish you could skip out on.
But voting against the stimulus checks would have angered all us consumers because we got's to get paid, regardless of where the money comes from.
I swear, you could tell an average American that in order from them to get their check a child in Africa has to die and they'd tell you to stop your flappin' and git to signin'.
I just don't know how anyone here on either side can defend us or our government anymore. We've strayed so far from decency it's appalling.
Quint, go to hell. Other sites are beating the hell out of this one now, and we don't have to sit through some uneducated film geeks political leanings to get our geek news.
"I find it doubtful that Wright could "mold" such a luminous mind. And you want change? Check this out: http://www.barackobama.com/iss ues/...everything is laid out for you. Enjoy...or vote for McCain and get the same shit that Bush has been peddling. Your choice."--------- Yeah, because with Obama its going to be different, right? Its "all laid out for you" right? And you dumbfucks eat it up. Youll eat the same shit sandwich Bush served you, because Obama "says" its a different sandwich. But youll eat it and lick your fingers, and ask for seconds. Youre going to get everything you deserve, you dumb fucking sycophants. "luminous mind" - wow, Im surprised you havent shaved your head and headed for the airport with flowers in hand. To hell with that Reverand. Lets ask about "uncle frank". Bet you Obamaphiles dont know jack shit about him, do you? "Enjoy voting for McCain" - like theres a Goddamned difference. They are both members of the CFR, but to numbfucks like you that wear there partisanship on their sleeve, that doesnt matter much. Why dont you stop being a "democrat" first and an American second? What the fuck is wrong with you people? "Change". Anyone that buys this shit should try shock therapy. 999 people out of 1000 dont have any idea who Zbigniew Bzrezinski is, his relationship to Obama, or his relationship to AlQueda for that matter. So have a nice day, be sure and stroke and attack each others egos with your bullshit partisan politics, while America burns.
Right wing is dying...people hate more because he is right and clever....theyd pile it on Jon Stewart too, but that makes them look anti-semitic. ANyone who defends Bush at this point either doesnt read or does not care. THey just want to defend something hard to defend. There is no liberals vs conservatives here, Bush is not conservative, his deficit is the greatest in history, and his un-just war has made us enemies we never thought we had.
Anyone who says Liberals sucks is a fucking Asshole & anyone who says Conservatives suck is a piece of shit. Being in the middle is place to be. Whatching this fight is great.
Think about it. Since the day we were born, everything that we have eaten, drank, worn, driven etc...has had the mark of Corporate America on it. This is all we know. So obviously it is only natural.
nuff said
I sit here and read everyones posts about politics and most if reads like you are calling stats in a football game. You guys go back and forth about Dems this, liberals this, Conservative that, Republicans this. What you fail to realize that once you hit a sertain level in politics there are no sides The sides that you think you are speaking so intellingently about are just smoke and mirrors.
You know, I don't question Moore's patriotism like some others tend to do. He's free to make whatever movies he wants. But, after watching the first F-9/11, I don't need to see another overwrought, sensationalized hit piece that barks up the wrong tree. (Especially if he's going to try and go down the proverbial rabbit-hole that the far, nutjob Left expects him to do.) Everyone should just do themselves a favor and watch films like NO END IN SIGHT or any one of the FRONTLINE documentaries. I'd rather see Moore concentrate on issues such as health care where I find him much more effective.
The argument that the President is THE FINAL Desision maker of all policy is completely true. There's no arguing that. However, my problem with Stalkeye is his language in his post. He wants to lay all the problems with the President. And that's not entirely fair. Blame can be layed on other people too. Though most will just blame the President. Also, by you calling me an "idiot" I must have really struck a nerve. I don't know why. I just said it will be months before we know whether the Stimulus Package worked or not... FACT. And then also said he was a Bush hater, but gave evidence why. And lastly I said that blame can be given to others than the President...FACT. So why am I an "idiot"?
I knew that headline would grab attention. I actually think he is but Michael Moore is a propaganda slinger who uses liberal thinking just to make money and he loves it. For the record I am not a conservative.
MM tells just enough in his movies to get the numb minds pissed off and sell tickets. I lost respect for his movies when I realized that there was no way that he was going to "tell it like it really is" He's a Hollywood product. You want credibility MM? Then tell people what is really going on. Ofcourse you probably don't want to end up on the cutting room floor though do you?
To industry insiders, $25 million WAS a disappointment. So while for the average documentary it looks good, it wasn't in this case. So why am I a "douche" for stating a fact?
The President is NOT the final decision maker! He is not even the decision maker in anything. He is a paid talking head. He does the work for the elite few who run the scenes from behind the curtain. The stimulus package is smoke screen. I called you an idiot to get your attention. It does not matter who is President. They all work for the same elite group. Do some research Zoe fan. Join the darkside..ehehe. Peace
I'll give you that the hedge funds bring in higher percentage profits than the oil companies. But does that mean that the activities of the oil companies is not criminal? When a refinery catches fire in Texas, they raise prices to "compensate" for their losses and yet instead of their profits maintaing an equal level of profit to the last quarter, they escelate. And while "W" may not be the sole cause of the rising fuel prices, his foriegn policy is constantly giving the industry excuses to raise prices and his domestic policies have led to a weakening dollar which is a key contributor to our ever rising gas prices.
Moore is a duche because at the end of Roger & Me he said he was never able to get an interview with Roger, but he really did get one. He just cut it out beucase he said it would make the film better. Also, look into the Think Tank that the Bush Admin was apart of that said Invading Iraq was needed to get control of OIL so you could control the world. Not a joke.
His words tend to be polemic but they've often been distorted in the media. Wright has done thousands of sermons/speeches over the last few decades, but only about 15 seconds worth are quoted by the media. Reagan's policies ostracized people suffering with AIDS. Under Reagan prisons filled with blacks more than ever, partly by villifying crack-use and other urban crimes moreso than the crimes whites tended to commit. Wright's words, although they may be over-the-top in delivery, are not inaccurate.
If he was really good his movies wouldn't be allowed.
I know that it is vogue to criticize Bush. And I believe that he deserves the ridicule. However, we need to open our minds to the possibility that the problems with the governance of the USA lies in the machinations of the Power Elite. There actions are motivated by consolidating power and wealth. This is done under the pretext of Freedom, Democracy, Defense etc... How is this proved? Simple: By their actions. They talk about Human Rights violations in Burma, Timor, Sudan, and yet remain silent on the genocide of Palestinians by Israel. They talk about fiscal responsibility and then give Big Business (see Oil Companies) big tax breaks. They talk about democracy in the Mid East, and then tear up the Constitution of the US and destabilize the balance of power between the Congress, Executive Branch, and Supreme Court. My conclusion? Terrorism, Radical Islam, China, Environment, are all pretexts for domination.
Because of the death of Lincoln, the Secret Service was formed. The fact that the agents worked fast(But not fast enough.) saved Reagan from being a statistic. He was even joking about his wound in the hospital when he was recovering. A tough man there. As for Reagan being the second most influential and beloved president, that is the consenus of the country when a poll was taken on former leaders. That is a fact.
THis is what I've been saying but continue because it's nice to see that there are other people in this country who are starting to pay attention.
He's gone on record several times saying that he doesn't agree with copyright laws and encourages people to share his works. More filmmakers should be like that.
As a blanket statement, I would say that oil companies don't engage in criminal activities anymore than any other companies. Actually, oil companies and other like industries face far more regulation then the aforementioned private/alternative investment realm. As far as prices, wow, where to begin. I acknowledge that turmoil in the middle east is one contributing factor to higher prices (whether that we would have less/more turmoil there with/without Bush is a far longer debate and one I view as a pot that has finally boiled over--thus was bound to happen). We in the US have also been spoiled by relatively low prices for a long time (compared to rest of world). our economy is also somewhat based on these lower prices and the "travel" economy (suburbs, long haul trucks, tourism, etc). Exponentially increased demand by developing nations like China and India have also added to the oil price increase. Weakening dollar is a catch 22: we raise interest rates to curb inflation, keep dollar higher, stock market goes down, greater imports, jobs loss, recession, etc. We could lower rates to stave off inflation, keep market's higher, more jobs, spur inflation not kept in check, dollar weakens, etc. Fed chose to lower rates, they fear recession and negative stock market more than inflation, weak dollar. This also relates to paygo mentality of most politicians (in past, present and future): lets pay for things as we go (a lot of time through borrowing) and put off most of the pain for future generations (see deficit spending, national debt, social security, welfare, healthcare, etc.) What's the solution? A lot of pain: less gov't spending or higher taxation, less benefits, more development and evolution of our economy and world. Good discussion.
What you all are saying is nothing new. Haves and Have Nots have been the case since civilization began. You can either be/are a have and try to keep being a have; or be/are a have not, live and die that way, or fight your way into being a have. Whoever said life was fair? The US in its storied history (yes I am biased) is probably the closest realization to balancing this inequality through personal achievement rather than forced (see communism/socialism) equality with its problems, but there are STILL haves and have nots. But the have nots in America live a 1000 times better on average than the have nots in Darfur, North Korea, etc. So that says something to the system. Of course there is still a Power Elite, there were also Kings, Emperors, Prime Ministers, Presidents, and all their cronies trying to get their favor in every society in history.
You are right in some sense. But what we are seeing is a re-tooling of an ancient system. That re-tooling is what we are in the middle of in this country. Each generation forgets a little more. So yes, while what some of us are saying is nothing new, it is in the sense that it has been re-fashioned and it's also new in the sense that people have forgotten through through store bought ideas.
May 14, 2008, 10 a.m. CST
by canvasseamonkey
Right back atcha kid.
To have have's and have not's there does need to be an established system and who better to create the system than the haves. Not agreeing with it, but so goes the cycle of humaity and the bigger fish principal.
Did Michael Moore watch that McDonalds documentary? I guess not because he is as Fat as ever... Isnt it ironic that a gigantic, overeating, slug-like creature did a documentary on the Healthcare system? I guess he will need all kinds of medical advances to keep him alive when really, for his health, all he has to do is quit eating - and then Ethopia could finally get some food.
If you thought of that on your own that's pretty funny.
That in this current trend of Fat Directors who finally get big and known they decide to lose the weight (Peter Jackson and Jon Favereu), Micheal Moore chooses not to. You think with Sicko he would've learned something.
So you obviously buy into this whole system?
Its just our generation catching its stride, world political savvy, understanding reality, and complaining about it. You don't think there wasn't a consolidation of power and wealth a generation ( or even a couple) ago? Ever hear the names Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Kennedy family, etc and all their associated political influences? That's just a small recoginizable example. It is the same, it has been the same, and will be the same. What has changed is our lifestyles, especially in the middle class. EG. We once had one crappy color/BW TV, now we have five. We once were happy with the crappy american model car, now everyone must drive a lexus. Consumerism is fueling our desire to be a have and have more, we notice it and desire more, and are not satified with what we have and feeling wronged. Final quick example, if you brought a family from Darfur over here and put them in a crappy house (with electricity, water, and satellite TV), and gave them $1500 bucks a month to live off of they would feel like they were in Heaven and likely not complain too much.
Good call...but the problem with stuff like the Downing Street Memo is the same problem with people like Michael Moore. This shit doe snot get down to the truth of what is really behind the iron curtain. They talk about BUsh's lack this and Bush did not do that. For God's sake he is just the talking head. TELL IT LIKE IT IS.
A single Michael Moore FART has contributed more to global warming than his ridiculous trips across America to create his gestapo-like anti-conservative propaganda!
You just spent all of that time explaining what I said in one summed up word, "re-tooling." I don't fault you for that but this is a problem with most people, they don't pay attention. You are definately on the right track though. SO let me sum it up. Same ancient system of control, new tools to control...(ie small example you gave, driving a Lexus) We are basically saying the same thing you just need to reach a little deeper. And yes the housing arrangements that you've mentioned are true but it does not lessen the blow of what is at the heart here. You know that.
May 14, 2008, 10:19 a.m. CST
by ccchhhrrriiisssm
"Deeper Michael, Deeper!!! Give me your fat propaganda tool and stuff it up my rectum! Squirt your creamy propaganda into my rectum! Afterward, give me and all of my friends a golden shower!"
Such an ignorant embrace of propaganda is just gross.

for a fact that lying cunt blair knew there were no weapons of mass desruction. Him and his evil PR chief, one cunt called Alastair Campbell, rewrote the report(the exact phrase was "sexed it up").
They fucking knew.
The DemoRATS don't apologize for their HATE. They just keep spreading their anti-conservative hate-filled propaganda and then whine that they aren't treated fairly.
Obama is a whining bitch and a cocky, elitist dick who knows that he CANNOT WIN in November. This inexperienced PRICK decided to run for President before he even served a day in Congress -- and began campaigning for the office of Commander-in-Chief after not having served three months in Congress!!!

Be warned: Ambition is a fickle bitch in the mouth of a power hungry elitist like Barack Hussein Obama!

Get ready: This BITTER little Liberal (Barack Obama) is ready to raise taxes on anyone who makes $30,000 or more per year. He has said this repeatedly, but he disguises it behind his Hitler-like "voice of the American people" hyped cheerleading rhetoric.
Good thing that he has virtually 0 chance of winning the Electoral College!
That should be this countries new motto. Deaf and Blind but God we run our fucking mouths about shit we don't know. We here in this country are the rulers of being dangerous with a little bit of knowledge. Oh well. So it goes.
...has contributed more to global warming than his ridiculous trips across America to create his gestapo-like anti-conservative propaganda!
But the hyper-liberals of America really like how they smell, don't they?

...like tax-happy Barack Hussein Obama...
...like Senator John McCain!
If the truth offends, pluck out your eardrums. The right never apologized for eight endless years of "Whitewater" nonsense and Clinton murders, not to mention lying us into a war that has killed a million people for no damned reason at all.
...toward me and anything else that is conservative begin.
C'mon, you know you want to, you little hate-filled liberal cocksuckers! You know that you love to gang up on a website like this and give your best efforts at displaying "clever" (*cough) little pieces of liberal hate rhetoric!
Gotta run...but I spewed my annoyance at this stupid director and his propaganda for the day.
The left doesn't care whether it is truth or propaganda. As long as it can be a means to spread lies and hate, they sit there quietly with their happy little Nazi-like grins!
Michael Moore is the voice of the living God, and as such he is infallible on matters of morality and the truth. He will soon cast Bush, Cheney and O'Reilly into the fiery pits of hell, kick starting the rapture. Better get in line boys, anyone who does not vote for Obama is not getting into heaven!
We are the majority, and yet somehow we're the hushed crazies that apologize for starting an argument. I don't believe we asked to invade anyone or borrow money from our grandkids to give rich people tax cuts or a fat, stupid invasion of an innocent country. The people who DID, the crazy 20%, they aren't fighting the wars, paying the taxes, holding the obligation to pay their debt, or apologizing for any damned thing they have made us do.
May 14, 2008, 10:37 a.m. CST
by BringingSexyBack
He and Brane just ooze sweetness and love when they accuse the Left of hatred.
Anyone seen Micheal Moore Hates America?
AICN Talkbackers FTW
Yet they support a war that costs $340 Million PER DAY. Not to mention the tens of thousands of American casualties. I'd ask them to justify this expense of blood and money but really, why bother?
My point was the system was alway here, has been always here, and will be always here. No deeper thinking needed. I just see it more as we are the ones changing throughout our lives and becoming more aware of how the system works, rather than the system changing around us.
to want to shoot Michael Moore in the face. He's a detestable piece of shit, and he's ruined documentary making forever with his unashamed bias, creative editing and outright falsehoods.
Do you think I give a shit if you think I'm a Bush hater? Actually I'm one of millions(if not billions) of the Anit-Dubya league.I'm against any politician that would fuck over the working class or misfortunate for thier own "ulterior motives". (or thier puppet masters. Hint,Hint.)It's just that most of them happen to be Republicans.Cause of Bush, this country is going further into a fucking quagmire.
Five years in iraq and for what? It sure ain't the Oil since gas prices are souring and what's also disturbing is how Clinton supports will give McCain the vote should their candidate lose.Don't those dumb West Virginians realize that granpa Johnny is not experienced in dealing with economy issues, that and he's just another Bush in the making.BTW Hil is supporter of NAFTA.So maybe those southerners can ask her where the fuck did their jobs go.
It seems that you have been drinking the Kool Aid, boyo.
The conservatives spew more than enough hate to go around
He took that from Patton Oswalt. It's a bit he does comparing Bush to the Dukes of Hazzard and it is one of the funniest stand-up bits I have ever heard.
And conservatives who go on and on about liberals spewing hate and conveniently forget about people like Hannity, O'Reilly, Beck, Coulter, Limbaugh, Malkin, Boortz, Drudge, Medved, Schlessinger, Robertson, Nugent, Ingraham, Savage, Bohannon, Cunningham and Carlson are but just a few of the conservative talking heads who deliver hate-filled rhetoric toward the left and lower class day in and day out. And nobody slings homophobia (I'm looking at you Reps. Kern and Santorum) quite like a Republican politician.
 There's no denying that there aren't crazies on the left, but to claim that the right is free from insults and hate speech is a crock because we all know damn well that the right nutjobs outnumber the left nutjobs by 2 to 1. Just go to an actual political website forum to find out.
Really rather dull. "Bowling For Columbine" and "Sicko" are both much better.
It is easy to cite off instances where Democrats have got it wrong. However, the problem is that we have abandoned the Constitution. Heck, I am Canadian but still admire the greatness of this document. Both parties have abandoned the Constitution unfortunately. The government has ceased to be for the PEOPLE. I agree with those saying that this is not a new concept of certain demographics having the power. However, to riff off Loius Althusser, the dominant state apparatus relies on its power being invisible. So as long as the people think that they are living in a fair society with freedom, then the powers that be can continue to exert their power. What we are seeing now however is an awakening of sorts where people are questioning the mantras of the governing bodies...
The system never looses sight of it's origins, but it does however evolve with the current social climate. The same ideals are in place but those ideals have to be re-packaged and re-sold to each new generation. Same shit. So, again, we are saying the same thing. ehehe
Ok..heheh. thanks. I thought the line was a little too witty for the folks here to dream up on their own.
I have no problem with this coverage, even though the slant of the AICN staff is well-documented. The people who get pissed about what other people think are ridiculous--that's just doing what liberals do: espouse the value of free speech until someone says something they don't like. All I ask is that when the Hillary and/or Obama movie premieres about complete and utter collapse in the middle-east we get as many talkbacks about the production. Like the casting of Rosie O'Donnell as Hilary. And Richard Brooks as Obama.
Yes, I work in Hollywood, and yes, it by OVERWHELMINGLY liberal. Throw a rock in Hollywood, and you'll hit one.
The man is just a fat, bloated sack of self-aggrandizing shit. His films are a bastardization of a genre I happen to have great affection for. He's welcome to make all the political diatribes he wants but I wish he'd quit claiming what he is doing is documentary filmmaking and I wish the industry would quit rewarding his crass and unprofessional antics. I actually used to respect the man and his work but at this juncture I'm prepared to never spend another dime on anything he touches. As for politics, both liberals and conservatives are so full of their own shit that perspective and common sense is now gone. Both sides violate the principles this nation was founded on and both are equally reprehensible to libertarians such as myself who simply want a government ruled with a bit of common sense and equality.
I second that emotion. Reps and Dems have both let us all down. If people TRULY want change, they should vote Libertarian this November.
I wonder if Moore will address his love for Fidel Castro in the sequel.
It was created to kill gays. Everybody knows that.
wait until you see Barack Hussein.
comedies. Yet here I read that somehow in everything he does Moore must be the shining standard-bearer of everyone's version of the truth, and if he doesn't do that he's a douche.
 Expecting Michael Moore to perfectly embody all things progressive in every aspect of his every film is like expecting Spike Lee to reflect the totality of the Black experience in each and every one of his films. Can't be done. Nor should they try.
 Moore himself has also said he hopes his films stir discussion. Mission accomplished (sorry, couldn't resist).
 It is far easier to sling invectives than to dig into issues. The critiques of Moore's films are more than adequate evidence of this. But again, he's fostering discussion, not trying to limit the discussion to himself or his films.
 In Sicko, for example, he made a very strong case for thoroughly investigating everything the Canadians, the French, and the British are doing right with their health care systems, and adapt the best of it here. Most of the criticism I've heard about his film was about the trip to Cuba, while scarcely a soul who slammed him could stop for a moment and consider the fate of the man who had to choose which finger to get reattached because he couldn't afford both.
 Our health care system is broken, and Moore is only one prominent person out of many who have pointed this out.
 Killing the messenger (by character assassination, judging from the posts here) easy. Taking a step back and actually pondering and considering and investigating the message - not so easy. But if we care one whit about our fellow humans, if we have any concern about the kind of world we're going to leave to future generations, we have a responsibility to the things that are not so easy.
dang that slexdyxia
I know you Americans worked really hard on this new State in the middle east, where your young boys can hunt humans for sport and become men, but for fucks shake, think before you vote this year, before this goes further. If you invade Iran, there's nothing left to do than to purchase a monocle and a top hat, cuz your officially Saturday morning cartoon villains. You can still fix this. We still believe in you.
The vast majority of our media is owned by five major corporations and special interest groups rule Washington, nothing is going to change. The liars will still be in power, and we all will be left to choose between Fox News or Michael Moore. Can we dig up Edward R. Murrow? I'd like some news, please.
because the guy who posted the article (quint) failed to toss in some pointless personal opinions and did not reduce himself to playground name calling.
 Both are required here at Aint It Huffington News Dot Com, so Quint - lower your standards or find another facebook page to write for.
Ever have mint jelly and locks? Holy shit who invented that taste monstrosity! Or how about the "California Suicide Sandwich" which is bread, peanut butter, and bananas...which sounds fine until you add...MAYONAISE!!!! That's right. God damn mayonaise in a peanut butter & banana sandwich. Then drink a bottle of sterno and you too can be Superman!!
Node, if you're going to question someone's taste in news, you should perhaps choose a source that isn't so noticeably left-leaning.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! AHAHAHAHAHA!!! AHOOOOOOO!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! This IS AICN, isn't it? Keep it CIVIL?!?!?!?
he should be executed live on fox news
and so is Bill O'Reilly
You can't make a completely objective documentary - it's not possible. The moment you turn off the camera after an interview, or choose to speak to someone in the street - the moment you choose when to turn the camera on or off, you are editorialising. There's nothing you can do about that. As for agendas - when you choose to do a documentary, you are NEVER going to say "I'm making a movie about THIS - here are the facts, I have no opinion." Well, you MUST have SOME opinion - why choose the subject you are making a documentary about? You could be interested, or wonder what's REALLY going on behind the scenes, or want to show how something (eg an election) - when you choose your subject, you are editorialising. There has only been one TRUE documentary, completely unexpurgated, and even then it was editorialsed as in choosing which camera to og with etc. And it was fictional. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you almost the most truthful doc ever - THE TRUMAN SHOW.
 And, in the end, even THAT showrunner had an agenda. There is NO absolute objectivity when you use the medium of cinema to tell a story or present a case.
 Oh, and the Bush/Moore debate: hey, if you don't like Moore, you can turn off the DVD, leave the cinema, burn his books. If you don't like Bush, you bend over and keep taking it up the tailpipe 'cos you HAVE to - he's the Decider! And if you're an Iraqi civilian who doesn't like Bush... the fucker will kill you in order to give his mates a rebuilding contract to make them rich, and get them to give him millions for his next election. Or, in this case, to feather their nests before Bush leaves and the next screwup takes charge. 'Cos, you liberals (and I'm one of you, from the UK) have to understand: Clinton or Obama, makes no difference. Iran will still be bombed even if the Democrats get in, and there will still be mutually assured destruction in the Middle East. Perhaps because the US' biggest ally out there is actually telling the US what to do, and what they ask, America does. So Iran will go down. And the Palestinians will continue to be the silent genocide that they have always been... destroyed by an untouchable country, unopposed by anyone, because the West has lost its balls.
May 14, 2008, 1:24 p.m. CST
by Hawaiian Organ Donor
Have you ever seen wheels spinning quite like this?
 I think we all need to realize it's impossible to reach across the aisle these days so long as most Americans are, mentally speaking, still stuck in the dark ages.
 When someone like me suggests that we need to look at the English, French and Canadian health systems, all they hear is "socialism, socialism, socialism" and don't understand that all I'm asking is to LOOK at what they're doing and asking if maybe we can't adopt portions of it for ourselves to make our system better.
 Hell, I'm as anti-Second Amendment as they come and even I'd be willing to give up that fight if it meant allowing gays to marry or a promise to leave Roe V. Wade alone for good.
 But that's the benefit of being an Independent. I can see Dems and Repubs for what they really are, a bunch of do-nothings who are tied to corporate interests and will never get a damn thing done for the common good.
That is for the Tree Huggers and Hippies! UsaToday baby!
i remember MM saying he was going to make one after Bush won again cause to him " the message wasn't getting there, there are alot of americans who aren't being educated on whats going on." All in all Moore should really like Bush for giving him the material to make his big money maker.
A poster above brought up some interesting points, and as he predicted, they were not answered by the liberal crowd. A chance for redemption is offered, here are the commments:
 Liberals don't work with FACTS, merely rhetoric force-fed to them by the liberal media hegemony in this country.All we ever hear is "Bush Lied!" About what exactly? The next response is "There were no WMDs in Iraq". Who was the first person heard to talk about WMDs? Your beloved president Bill Clinton! He announced that Saddam had weapons and was a threat to the world and needed to be taken out of the equation. The second person preaching about WMDs was Saddam himself. Remember the speech about how he is prepared to use his full chemical and biological arsenal if we attacked? The man nerve-gassed his own people, I think I would take him serious! Then we hear about "Halliburton!" Out of all the companies who could do the job in Iraq, on the scale and time frame involved...there were 2. Halliburton and Schlumberger, a french company. And with France's stance on the war, which do you think would have got picked? But these are FACTS, never mind...liberals don't use them!"
Interesting points to be sure, I'm looking to see an informed post as a rebuttal.
Can we get back to Lucas bashing or something?
I remember when I used to be liberal, the common refrain from me and my buddies to anyone right-of-center was "Why can't you be more open-minded?" Which translated (and still translates) to "Why can't you believe what I believe?" As long as this attitude perseveres, the chances of "reaching across the aisle" are in danger. For the record, I watch Moore documentaries and anti-Moore documentaries... which sets me apart from many of my liberal "why can't you believe like me" friends.
9/11 was an inside job
Being an admitted Bush hater means your opinions really don't matter as you have an adgenda and you can't be objective on the issues. Kool Aid is one thing I don't drink. Proof of that is I'm not voting in this upcoming election. Despite what your unfounded (meaning you can't back it up with proof) asertion that McCain is another Bush, that's exactly why I wouldn't vote for McCain, because he's not Bush. However, since you brought it up, "Johnny is not experienced in dealing with economy issues", that's why Romney will be his running mate. And as far as Bush "fucking over the working class", where's your proof on that one?
hopefully he talks about that in this movie and other aspects of the 9/11 official story that don't make sense. A 3rd building fell that day in perfect free fall collapse it was not hit by a plane and suffered from minor fires. If you are unaware of this building i recommend you do a google search for wtc 7. not saying 'bush did it' or anything like that, just pointing out highly peculiar event on the day of 9/11.
www.USAtoday.com --what--
Thanks, I would've loved it if I hadn't already heard that on Opie & Anthony.
May 14, 2008, 2:17 p.m. CST
by awepittance
"I've filmed there before down at the Pentagon-- before 9/11-- there's got to be at least 100 cameras, ringing that building, in the trees, everywhere. They've got that plane coming in with 100 angles. How come with haven't seen the straight-- I'm not talking about stop-action photos, I'm talking about the video. I want to see the video; I want to see 100 videos that exist of this," Moore said.
"Liberals don't work with FACTS, merely rhetoric force-fed to them by the liberal media hegemony in this country.All we ever hear is 'Bush Lied!' About what exactly?"
 Number one, the media is anything but Liberal. If it was, they would still be dogging Bush over things like Katrina, Mission Accomplished, and that absurd energy bill he signed which benefited the oil companies who really don't need any further assistance. Screwing over your countrymen does NOT have a date of expiration. It CNN has the liberal bastion the right claims it to be, they would spend night after night reporting about what a fiasco this stimulus package is going to be on our credit report. Just because there are a few websites like HuffPo or ThinkProgress that report this stuff daily, does not mean the mainstream media is liberal. Once and for all, give that one a rest because there's about as much truth to that statement as there is, "BLEST will swallow a box of tacks in the next five minutes."
 Number two, look at one of my posts above to see a list of Bush's lies. But if you're too lazy, let's go with this one: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. At that point the only thing we had accomplished was ousting Saddam. And that wasn't our primary goal. The primary goal was to find the WMDs and prove to the world we were right about them being there and the threat Iraq posed. Never happened. And the media gave him a free pass on that one too because it could have made that international embarrassment front page headlines for months and months, like they did over a routine blow job.
 Also, if the media was so liberal they would make a big fuss over the various reports the White House has buried over the years, the most recent one being a Pentagon report that, you guessed it, said there was no connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda. And don't fool yourself. There is a fine line between lying and trying to conceal the truth.
 And now to my final point. It's the right-wing media that force feeds rhetoric and outright lies to anyone stupid enough to listen. Always referring to Obama by Hussein and "accidentally" calling him a Muslim. In fact, they accidentally "mis-speak" so often that a frightening number of Americans actually believe Obama is a Muslim and that Saddam had ties to Al Qaeda.
 So there's your informed post. And I could give a damn about your rebuttal because anyone who thinks the media is liberal in this country is no yet ready to carry on an informed discussion.
not liberal not republican, this is obvious to anyone who is not trapped in the left right political paradigm. any time the USA launches a new war the media will be in lock step behind them supporting it no MATTER WHO is the president. The media was in support of the Serbian war, in support of the Panamanian invasion, in support of Gulf war 1 & 2. All of these happened under democrat and republican presidents.
...it was developed by Al Quaeda inside the mind of a warped, twisted radical Islamic terrorist.
"Give me a gun and a clear shot at Osama bin Laden, and I'll put an end to this war on terror." - Senator John McCain

"Can't we all just talk about it and be friends. We can even talk about dividing Israel." - Barack Hussein Obama the schmuck

"I'd stick a grenade up his ass." - John McCain, when asked what he would do if he walked into a room with Osama bin Laden "He killed thousands of fellow Americans and Africans. If we're worried that some other religious terrorist would pick up Osama's pieces, I'd stick a grenade up their asses too."

Yes, I recognize that there is a problem in the Middle East. But we have to understand that there are reasons for this. If we try and establish a meaningful dialogue, we might be able to reach a solution with our Arab brothers." - Barack Hussein Obama

"I call for the analiation of Israel and the destruction of that Great Satan -- the United States of America!" - Osama bin Laden

"With all due respect to the 3 year Senator from Chicago, you can't negotiate with a terrorist who is willing to strap a bomb to a mentally disabled woman in order to kill a busload of innocent Arab children." - Senator John McCain

"Just because I didn't serve in the military doesn't mean that I don't know the rules or how to lead." - Barack Hussein Obama

"I hope that Mr. Obama can learn something from his bowling score. It helps to have experience and practice. This is especially true when endeavoring to lead the Armed Forces and the politicians in Washington D.C. His 0 years of military experience and 3 years in Congress aren't very promising." - Senator John McCain

"We need more than just a CHEERLEADER shouting for change. We need more than a CYNIC who accuses everyone else of being "bitter." We need more than a Harvard ELITIST as President of the United States of American!" - Senator Hillary Clinton

"I attended the Church for 20 years, but I wasn't aware that my pastor held such controversial views. If I had been aware, I would have left the Church years ago." - Barack Hussein Obama

"Barack is just being a politician -- you know, telling people what they need to hear. He knows what I believe because he sat on the couch in my living room agreeing with me." - Reverend Jeremiah Wright, to PBS

"It was a boneheaded decision." - Barack Hussein Obama, on his decision to underhandedly accept a $3 Million house from indicted felon and former boss Tony "the Syrian" Rezko.

"For the first time in my life, I feel proud to be an American." - Michelle Obama

"I have always been proud to be an American!" - Cindy McCain

"The white man has done his best to keep the black man down....to only give the bones of survival to those who sell out to his cause. Even Ivy League schools give diplomas to blacks, not on the basis of their work, but because they sell out to the elite white man." - Michelle Obama, in her Senior Thesis at Princeton University

"I understand the everyday American. I just paid off my student loans last year." - Barack Hussein Obama

"$53.2 Million" - amount Barack Hussein Obama has been paid since graduating from Harvard Law School

"I was fighting for civil rights back when Barack Obama was experimenting with cocaine at Harvard!" - Hillary Clinton
 The choice is clear. Obama just plain sucks.
which I think explains a lot of the main stream media these days.
you're last post exemplifies the "facts" and "reasoning" and "logic" that have recently scared me off political TB's. Seriously, this is a film website, and Herzog's remake doesn't even make the "Top Talkbacks," on the same day it was posted, because there other TB's that are excuses to repeat (usually) years old bullshit. What the fuck?
awepittance, WTC7 has been thoroughly debunked...and debunked...and debunked. For a condensed explanation: http://tinyurl.com/3xgjeh
Nice post, but if Americans believe Obama is muslim that is their own ignorance not the media. For example. When I heard he was Muslim I looked it up and realized he wasn't. Now I am not an Obama supporter. I think all the candidates blow. Some of the media is leans towards the "Left" & Fox leans toward the "Right" the reason why everyone thinks the media is Liberal is because the Prez is Republican and they are busting his everytime. They did the same thing when Clinton was President so chill out. Anyone that has to say liberal or conservative and point out a problem is a jackass. Totally Fucking Serial
that I'm nowhere to innocent from spouting anonymous, random, political bullshit... but there was Herzog remake article, and very few TB'ers have had anything of substance to post about that. That's just sad; and I don't even count Herzog in that "Demi-God status" certain film-makers get, though I respect the hell out of him.
"And as far as Bush 'fucking over the working class', where's your proof on that one?"
 Do you guys need everything researched for you? Good Lord. I'll just go with one here. Allowing the Fed to keep lowering interest rates. Economics 101, Mr. President. Although it keeps Wall Street and foreign investors happy, over time it actually devalues our dollar. And that's not debatable. Right now we have enough going on that's hurting our dollar, we don't need something extra on the pile. So Bernanke should have been instructed to stay put at a time when lenders weren't dishing out any big loans anyway.
Someone earlier mentioned Rev Wright's comments. I made the one earlier about him claiming that AIDS was created by the government to destroy the black community...and the poster asked why more black people are not upset by these accusations? I have an example. I debate with a guy at work sometimes (he is black) and when this issue came up he said that it was true and it is how all black people. Wow. Really? I realize that he was talking out his ass at this point, but it is a scary thought. For some reason, just because he claims to be a man of God means we have to take his word for it. After all, whatever God told him has to be true.
You have no idea what you're talking about... at all. Everything you just posting is pure ignorance. Although, you managed to sound somewhat informed by throwing out the Fed Chairman's last name, Congrats on that.
bismarckf, that is by no stretch of the imagination a debunking. I will let other people decide here for themselves by searching WTC 7 on google. Sure they can read the pathetic attempts at debunking as well but at least let them see both sides. I would loveto have a spirited debate with you at some point without directing me to a 2 year old website . In other words use your own intellect to argue with me, not a URL.
1.) As I said, the comments weren't mine, they were another posters, so don't lump me in there.
 2.)You didn't answer at all the points covered: Clinton and Saddam himself self that he had WMD (to counter the "Bush lied!" argument used so much) and also the "Haliburton!" argument is irrelevant because out of all the companies who could do the job in Iraq, on the scale and time frame involved...there were 2. Halliburton and Schlumberger, a french company.
I'm not saying those 2 points are true necessarily, (though it's on record that Bill Clinton was for taking out Hussein because of his WMD) but rather asking if a liberal person can provide contrary evidence.
Instead, what I got from you was:"Bush lied about Mission Accomplished". True, but not a real answer to the 2 points presented.
Can you or anybody else shed some light?
Why are you complaining about political talkbacks, while contributing to their posting count?
 This is not the Herzog TB.
Average taxes paid on $36K in 1998 = $8250
This is according to the IRS website.
 Obama calls this a "tax cut that favors the rich." What a lying, cynical dick!
we need an "edit" feature Harry.
or it will be doing a disservice to everybody. -talk about the toxic dust that Rudy and Christine Todd Whitman said was ok to breathe, indirectly causing the deaths of over 300 rescue workers to date from lung problems. This number continues to rise -Why has there never been a proper criminal investigation? the 9/11 commission was controlled by the bush administration from beginning to end. Most family members agree that the majority of their questions were unanswered. The commission leaders themselves now admit they were lied to. Bush and Cheney refused to testify under oath in the 9/11 comission hearings, and they did it privately and appeared together, refusing to appear invidually. -talk about how the war in Afghanistan was never about catching bin laden or al queda. 2 of my friends serving over their said that there is absolutely no military commanders saying that they are fighting al queda or even the taliban over there. All they do is ambush armed farmers and compounds that grow opium, raid it and confiscate it then turn it over to the national police to destroy. 'The war in afghanistan not about al queda, or even the taliban, it is an extension of the war on drugs' quote from my friend who just got back serving in Afghanistan. Michael moore did a fine job in his last film of illustration how we were lied into going to war with Iraq. Ok michael now its time to talk about how our reasons for going into Afghanistan were lies as well.
true... my frustration stems from asking about why Herzog is in multiple Harmony films, then going about my day, then coming back to AICN and realizing that there were still few Herzog posts of substence and the political TB's have so, so many posts that just re-hash the same arguments. But, I don't have anything else to do today... so I'll probably reinforce my previous post's hypocrisy.
At least you are honest.
http://tinyurl.com/6l65ek go this website to learn the other side of 9/11. This building fell from no fire, no plane. also feel free to read the 'debunkings' and decide for yourself. In fact i highly encourage looking at this in a balanced way.
Ragardless of the politics Farenheit made Documentaries, and Political Documentaries at that not just possible but profitable and something Studios could actually finance without too much worry about the bottom line.

Some great little documentaries have seen the big screen since then and they clearly haven't all been Political.

Besdies no-one has stopped or is stopping the NeoCons or Loyal Bushies from making their own Docus so if they don't like Moore they can make their own and see if they can top it if it upsets them so much ?
I'm not an Obama guy either. He's a corporate tool like the rest of them. But if you think for one moment that Bush and his administration gets hammered an a daily basis like that idiot Bubba did during CumstainGate or Obama has over Rev. Wright then you really are living on another planet. As an American, I find it reprehensible that my President has buried reports that discredited key policies his administration was advocating or circumventing the Constitution to allow telecoms to break the law. And yet, the Rev. Wright stuff (and there's NO denying this) was lead story, front page news for over a month. Daily polls on CNN were asking people if they agreed/disagreed with Obama's handling of the situation. Bush buries critical intelligence reports and it barely makes page 6 news and it makes it once. So I will say for the very last time. Is the media liberal? Is it even close to being liberal? Shake that magic 8-ball and the answer you get is, "All signs point to no!"
yeah, well, what choice did I have when you called me out on my bullshit?
Hopefully it would at the very least calm them all down for 5 minutes giving them time to make some better quality tin-foil hats and they could stop squealing about being "censored" just because nobody takes them seriously.

Primaerily though it would prove just how popular their Byzantine ludicrously complex conspiracy Theories are with the public at the Box Office but sadly it would also mean they would have to stick to one Conspiracy Story and that's would be where it would all fall down. (at no doubt conspiratorally Gravity defying speeds)
And he wants to destroy the world!!! He started a war to make more money from oil! He created AIDS to kill black people!
That is, if you believe the propaganda of men like Kanye West, Michael Fatass Moore and Reverend Jeremiah Hitler Wright!
 Hyper-Liberals are a gullible breed!
Is that Single,
 Married filling jointly or qualified widow(er)
 Head of household
 Married filling separately?
 Explain you numbers please, then tell me what the marginal tax was from 1998
Well, I guess it's who you put your faith in. You call it ignorance, i call it enlightenment. I've read enough on both sides to safely say I think I'm looking at it mostly right. I'm tired of typing these long tirades so I'll go the cut and paste route from Fortune magazine.
 "But as much as Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke might like to keep the economy rolling by slashing interest rates, it's not clear how much room he'll have to do so. Two factors complicate the outlook for further interest-rate cuts: the hefty losses in the financial sector that are making banks less eager to lend money, and the prospect that lower rates will chase overseas investors away from the dollar, lowering the value of the greenback and boosting inflation. Adding to the case against deep rate cuts is the widespread perception that it was the Fed's rate-cutting zealousness after the last recession that led to the housing bubble that now threatens to derail the economy."
 "Compelling as it may be, a rate-cutting policy may not always have the desired salutary effect; after all, Japan effectively had interest rates of near-zero percent for years without emerging from its economic gloom. And it carries its own costs. Lower rates boost the economy by making big purchases such as houses more affordable. They can also help banks rebuild their balance sheets, by enabling them to borrow at lower rates and lend at higher ones. But lower rates also tend to reduce the value of the dollar, which has already fallen sharply in recent years amid a surge in U.S. consumption funded by overseas borrowing. Further declines in the dollar raise the risk of boosting inflation, which hurts consumers by reducing their purchasing power."
 "Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington, D.C., says the Fed's latest round of rate cuts risks adding to pressure on the dollar. He notes that unlike the Fed, the European Central Bank has been holding its interest rate target steady. So the latest Fed rate cut puts U.S. short-term interest rates, at 3.5 percent, below the 4 percent level of the euro zone. That differential tends to make the euro, which has already appreciated sharply against the dollar in recent years, even more attractive to investors shopping for places to put their money."
 So if I have no idea what I'm talking about...at all and I'm completely ignorant then so are the folks at Fortune and that's not bad company to be in.
and Saddam himself said he had WMD?
Pity. Here' let's let ol Billy speak in his own words. Have a watch, it's good stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoskN83Uzew&feature=related
Yeah it's Libs who are gullible because they knew Saddam wasn't Bin Laden & Iraq wasn't Afghanisan.
In 2001. So how could he possibly have America threatening WMD if he was "contained" and "In his Box" ?
I hate to break it to you, but the greenback still has a way to fall until it hits market value (hopefully it will be gradual, and the momentum won't carry the greenback to below value/ soft landing versus hard landing and this could take years short of major market shifts). Everything Bernanke has done is to prevent a depression, by mitigating a recession (ie, don't trust FED and Administration talking points because they are designed to booster confidence in the market, because confidence is sorely lacking and lack of confidence and expected inflation can be self-fulfilling prophecies). Unless you can give a concise explanation of why the winner between twin deficit model and the current depreciation... you have no idea of what you're talking about. And, yes, this is a trick question in some ways.
Great find, Blest. Love that video link you posted. Just more proof that it's okay when Clinton does it, but horrible when Bush does it, too.
That is because Liberals hate anyone who doesn't agree with their warped, far-left extreme social views or their cynical and bitter views of society.
But if you were born into my conservative family, I wouldn't hate you, but I would hate your ridiculous hyper-liberal "my way is the only way" opinions.

Ah, I see you haven't really done your research on WTC7. For a good start, you should Google "Screw Loose Change" and begin looking into the various other photographs, eyewitness accounts, and film based evidence (not that one shot that folks like you think is the smoking gun). For someone so intent on dishing out the conspiracy theory, you should at least be as diligent in looking up the very convincing counter-evidence. Hell, even Dylan Avery has done so.
Dude, why are you persisting? If Bubba thought that then he's a wanker too. He was probably getting blown while going over intelligence reports and wasn't able to concentrate.
 If you expect me to defend Bill, you're going to be disappointed. I sort of liked the guy while he was in office but since leaving he's proven himself to be nothing but a jerkoff.
Don't rant on me mother fucker just to advance your crazy notions! I even said the Media wasn't LIBERAL. I could give 2 shits abot all this garbage news. People like bad news, it sells better than good news. That is why Rev Wright is in the news and not the real issues. Keep ranting instead of talking about real issues. Put the Spam away you-fucking-Samoan.
Please answer the tax question posted above. Thank you.
the Euro's hold their interest steady cause their "central" bank is German, and German bankers and (a surprising amount) of economists have an inherit fear of inflation, due to the experiences of WWI: the Treaty of Versailles and the manner in which the Wiemar Republic dealt with said debt (hyperinflation). That policy is a huge source of macro-economic debate among Euro nations (they had so sacrifice monetary policy to join the EU), and the poorer nations are getting upset that they are dealing with a more and more appreciated currency.
...it was about what Saddam Hussein would do if he ever obtained some. He was the world's leading supporter of terrorism by providing money and weapons to Palestinian suicide bombers. While we are thankful that Hussein didn't have the WMD program that he claimed (and tried to pretend that he had), we know for a fact that he wanted one and would have "leaked" them to Islamic terrorist organizations.
Didn't you watch the CIA interrogator's interview on 60 MINUTES?

how many times did you claim the $10,000 moore offered to anyone who could prove anything he said was lies?? you guys must be rich I mean surely if you know he was lying you claimed the money right? right? his offer still stands so if i was you i would be claiming some of that tasty cash....
George Bush is NOT Ben Bernanke's boss. Bush has nothing to do with what the Fed decides. So to say that George Bush screwed the middle class by interest rates dropping is just uneducated rubbish. Very Weak Attempt.
It was for individuals filing "single" and/or "head of household."
yet they still have not ever attacked us. not once. nor were they ever in anyway shape or form a threat to us. God bless the u.s.a
I strongly disagree with your assertion that any Dem or anyone for that matter disagreeing with the drumbeat to war with Iraq, was wrong.
 I have stated this before and will do so again, if the premise of war was that Iraq had WMD's (proven or otherwise)and that they may sell to terrorists, then why did we not take out a regime that we had incontrovertible proof of having nuclear capability and exporting its expertise to hostile governments?
 I am speaking of North Korea.

Well, Bush claims to have a brain but I have yet to see it.
 Pssst! Sometimes people lie about the things they have. Like guys and their big dicks.
 And if Clinton had invaded Iraq and wasn't able to show me anything more than an artist's rendering of stuff, I'd have not only jumped on the impeachment wagon but lead the charge.
Never heard of his $10,000 dollar claim, but if it's true then I have every reason to believe he wouldn't pay. Watch "Michael Moore Hates America." Just watch it for all the people who were in his movies prior who felt mislead after seeing the finished product. Then watch as Moore shoots down the maker of the film and never responds to any of his inquiries regarding inconsistencies within his films. $10,000 my ass. All the man has to do is ignore you, as seen in that particular documentary.
not to jump into the Iraq debate, but Saddam attempted to assassinate a former US president, and the proceeded to routinely attempt to shoot down US planes flying UN missions. Ali G had it right, Saddam was a bell end, and a rather stupid one at that.
Then answer this: WHO are you voting for and WHY?
Please refrain from using empty rhetoric similar to Obama's about "change" or a "3rd Bush term." If you are mentioning a particular promise of Obama's -- please indicate just HOW his promise will be implemented. Thanks!
all the aid and support he gave the anti-Israeli (Isreal=US ally) terrorist groups.
"Well, Bush claims to have a brain but I have yet to see it." What do you think we're still looking for in Iraq? ;-)
Single and head of household have to entirely diferent tax brackets.
 The 2007 tax bracket for singles is 25%.
 For Head of household, it is 15%.
 Once again, what numbers and for what bracket are you using? Better yet, just post the IRS link that shows the difference between 1998 and 2007.
 Thank you
I'm not adding, detracting, or even contributing to the "should we or not have invading Iraq debate"... I'm just saying Saddam did all sorts of shit that pissed everyone off, again and again... and again and again, and then shot at UN plains and denied weapon inspectors... again and again... etc.
OK, really, you've got to leave this TB. At the end of the day, even if it's the most roundabout way, Bush signs Bernanke's check. If you're telling me that the leader of the free world can't call a private meeting with the Fed chairman and ask him not to do something and expect that just maybe it won't get done, then you have no clue.
 So corporation's have the ability to influence a government official's choice, but the POTUS doesn't? OK, thanks for clearing that up.
MJACE. I respect your view points despite the fact you're trying far too hard to excuse Bush. As far as the catch 22 senario, the fed continues to cut interests rates with seemingly no effect. Just as Bush & co continue to cut taxes. Its time for us as a country to buckle up & get truely fiscally conservative. We're gonna have to raise interest rates and taxes (got the wealthy) otherwise we pass this along to our children. Why do republicans continually support this president? He has spent more more money and created more government than any of his predicessors. He has allowed for the deportation of high paying jobs in order to pad things for his coporate buddies and replaced them with jobs that don't pay as well. All the while replacing the lost jobs with lower paying jobs and telling Americans that they need to go back to school to pay to learn another trade now that their income has diminished due in part to his tactics.
"planes" not plains

"Give me a gun and a clear shot at Osama bin Laden, and I'll put an end to this war on terror." - Senator John McCain

 "Can't we all just talk about it and be friends. We can even talk about dividing Israel." - Barack Hussein Obama the schmuck

 "I'd stick a grenade up his ass." - John McCain, when asked what he would do if he walked into a room with Osama bin Laden "He killed thousands of fellow Americans and Africans. If we're worried that some other religious terrorist would pick up Osama's pieces, I'd stick a grenade up their asses too."

 Yes, I recognize that there is a problem in the Middle East. But we have to understand that there are reasons for this. If we try and establish a meaningful dialogue, we might be able to reach a solution with our Arab brothers." - Barack Hussein Obama

 "I call for the analiation of Israel and the destruction of that Great Satan -- the United States of America!" - Osama bin Laden

 "With all due respect to the 3 year Senator from Chicago, you can't negotiate with a terrorist who is willing to strap a bomb to a mentally disabled woman in order to kill a busload of innocent Arab children." - Senator John McCain

 "Just because I didn't serve in the military doesn't mean that I don't know the rules or how to lead." - Barack Hussein Obama

 "I hope that Mr. Obama can learn something from his bowling score. It helps to have experience and practice. This is especially true when endeavoring to lead the Armed Forces and the politicians in Washington D.C. His 0 years of military experience and 3 years in Congress aren't very promising." - Senator John McCain

 "We need more than just a CHEERLEADER shouting for change. We need more than a CYNIC who accuses everyone else of being "bitter." We need more than a Harvard ELITIST as President of the United States of American!" - Senator Hillary Clinton

 "I attended the Church for 20 years, but I wasn't aware that my pastor held such controversial views. If I had been aware, I would have left the Church years ago." - Barack Hussein Obama

 "Barack is just being a politician -- you know, telling people what they need to hear. He knows what I believe because he sat on the couch in my living room agreeing with me." - Reverend Jeremiah Wright, to PBS

 "It was a boneheaded decision." - Barack Hussein Obama, on his decision to underhandedly accept a $3 Million house from indicted felon and former boss Tony "the Syrian" Rezko.

 "For the first time in my life, I feel proud to be an American." - Michelle Obama

 "I have always been proud to be an American!" - Cindy McCain

 "The white man has done his best to keep the black man down....to only give the bones of survival to those who sell out to his cause. Even Ivy League schools give diplomas to blacks, not on the basis of their work, but because they sell out to the elite white man." - Michelle Obama, in her Senior Thesis at Princeton University

 "I understand the everyday American. I just paid off my student loans last year." - Barack Hussein Obama

 "$53.2 Million" - amount Barack Hussein Obama has been paid since graduating from Harvard Law School

 "I was fighting for civil rights back when Barack Obama was experimenting with cocaine at Harvard!" - Hillary Clinton

 The choice is clear. Obama just plain sucks.
How many were on the 9/11 planes ?

 And they are STILL funding terrorism along with all the Wahabi schools that churn out extremists. Yet Bush walks hand in hand with the King of Saud like a prom date. So sorry, wrong country again.

How was Saddam going to sponsor terrorism if both Condi Rice AND Colin Powell admitted he was "contained" and trapped "in his box" in 2001 ?

As for what Saddam wanted are you telling me Bush invaded Iraq because Saddam wanted WMD ????? Jeebus ! I'm sure Saddam wanted legions of crack invisible ninjas with laserbeams for eyes but it's not justification for invasion.
I already arrived home, but I saved the tax change on my computer at work. I'll post the link tomorrow, k?
the GOP is damn close to civil war. "Neo-cons" are the exact same as the rank and file "liberals": they just march according to the drum beat. All the unrest and dissent in the US is a good thing: it demonstrates that there a shit-load of "right-wing" and "left-wing" voters who are all sorts of pissed off at our federal government.
I second that notion. You lack balls if you feel the need to apologize for your own stories you run on your web site.
This is yet another reason why it's anything but a liberal media. Boy howdy they went after this like a junkyard dog and completely missed the point.
 "For the first time in my life, I feel proud to be an American." - Michelle Obama
 "I have always been proud to be an American!" - Cindy McCain
NO. He's as rich as any Presedential candidate. SO keep trying to sell the "elitist" smear at the same time as the "angry black man" smear because they are both equally weak and they both stink of depsperation and fear.

Hey if McCains so smart how come he his CAMPAIGN employed a couple of retards who were shilling for the Burmese Junta ? Hmmmmmm.... ????
"America" is something to be proud of.
McCain is purely, simply, and only, a political animal. Something every American should despise. And, under no circumstances, vote for.
My latest problem with Bush is that he won't go over and aid the Burmese villagers who are being slaughtered by the Junta, but he'll sure offer help and aid to the Junta after the recent hurricane there. What a d-bag.
It's not Wright. (He doesn't even make the list)Terrorism ss 4th behind Healthcare and even Iraq comes second to the Economy (stupid).

How will McCain spin his support of Bush's Tanking Economy positively ? People who look at their Mortgages and Paychecks want it to stop NOW. They want it to CHANGE. Not excuses and weasel words about how it's not the Presidents fault and how more of the same policies that got them here were the answer.
Not always. And sometimes not even on our best days.
McCain has NEVER said anything about his possible appointments to the Supreme Court. So your vote is based upon a rumor?
McCain believes in a "strict constructionist" view of the Constitution. In other words, he believes that the Constitution means what it says -- and nothing more. McCain has only said that the US doesn't need judges who want to interpret the Constitution according to their own particular social or political views.
 BTW, how did the "right to an abortion" come to be? It was a decision concerning how a few judges interpreted the 14th Amendment's guarantee to a "right of privacy." In other words, a woman can kill an unborn child because the Court ruled that she has a "right to privacy."
 The Court, in 1973, did not cite a single past case about the issue -- although there were at least 427 cases in Federal and State courts. They neglected to consider the 14th Amendment's OTHER right -- the right to due process and EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW for all Americans.

But McCain does support abortion as a means to save the life of a mother or to end a pregnancy due to rape (all 0.025% of them). He voted to end "partial birth abortion" (which Obama was the only state senator to support).
obviously Americans haven't settled multiple Euro/global Wars by sacrificing hundreds of thousands of our youths (defending the liberal democratic model of government, while hardly threatened). And, then, failed to sacrifice unbelievable amounts of money and hundreds of thousands of lives protecting the globe against communism (which killed way, way more people than fascism and enslaved over half of humanity into an existence exactly that of chattel). Go to hell, America is the best thing to happen to planet Earth since we became a world power.
Those quotes were hardly covered by the mainstream media. Have you read Harvard's latest study about the media? Even this liberal, elitist institution came to the conclusion that the media is decidedly liberal! Just google HARVARD STUDY LIBERAL MEDIA and check it out at the Harvard website!
"America is like the uncle that pays your way through college but ocassionally fucks you in the ass as payment." Or something to that effect.
But before I go, let me reiterate:
BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA is a pompous, whining, elitist hyper-liberal DICK!
 That is all.
please elaborate on how that quote resonates with you.
I know he certainly used to be against it having the come to that view from actuall personal experience and by the obvious reasoning that American Troops shouldn't have to endure it from enemies as a tit for tat because the Commander in Chief approves it.

But does he still believe that ? Because Bush,Rove,Cheney and the rest of em sure don't. So here is a good place for McCain to place some distance between himself and Bush over an issue which McCain clearly thought about and had an entirely principled stance on. So does he still think Torture is unacceptable for America to employ ?
May 14, 2008, 4:01 p.m. CST
by Hawaiian Organ Donor
I love this country. I'd die for this country. But that is the most arrogant, ignorant remark I've ever read. And with that there's no use in me debating because we're at loggerheads. Good night everyone. Thanks for the discussion.
As I don't want to be known strictly as a "conservative" around here (I'm really more moderate), I'd like to pass along some Cool News. Rifftrax, the MST3k offspring run by Mike Nelson and Legend Films (which was out LONG before Cinematic Titanic), has a new series of 'trax: "Rifftrax Presents" which are movies riffed on without Mike. Kevin Murphy (Tom Servo) and Bill Corbett (2nd Crow) have done a few entries. Their newest, out today (May 14) is a riff of "Saw" which is so "beloved" around here. Check it out. Rifftrax.com
...but this has no bearing here. He said, "If you're black you have to look at America a little differently. America is like the uncle that paid your way through college, but molested you."
No major Democrat will side with Moore because he is full of shit. He is a disgrace to honest filmmakers in the documentary drama and his Oscar is a fucking disgrace. Most of the stuff he quotes and states you can easily look up and research yourself, to find out he is completely full of it. I can't stand liars. Propaganda films are not documentaries.
"Anti-Moore Isn't Pro Bush." Your words here could have easily helped me out at the very beginning of the talkback. Great post.
Moore will piss a lot of people off and make another nice dollar at the box office. Ha ha. No, really. I am looking forward to this. Rarely in recent history have a people been bent over and fucked so hard by the people who were sworn to protect them as their leaders. Before you start renting, turn of Fox News and read a fucking book, or if not that: look simply at the facts that are provided by neutral media. It reads like a comedy, but one should cry if you gloss over the Bush administration's record.
I'm not here to argue abortion, but I will say that your opinion is about as valid as ccchhhrrriiisssm's opinion on this issue...which is to say both of you can have one, but ultimately you pointed out that it's a womans issue. Why even bother "wasting each other's time?"
Haha. Which media is that? MSNBC's Chris Matthews or ABC's George Stephanopolis? Also to that one guy above, the "Right to Privacy" was invented by the Court in Connecticut v. Griswold, which basically said that the Bill of Rights "emanate" with protection of an individual's "right to privacy." Some argue that the court created the Right to Privacy in that case so it could legalize abortion down the line. I'm not big into conspiracies, so I don't know if I believe that.
but does that mean you think Obama or Hillary would pick better judges for the SCOTUS?
Damned if I can find the official offer on his website...methinks it's so broadly worded that you could drive trucks through the loopholes.
Don't get me wrong man, I'm not arguing with you. What I meant was that your opinion is no better than his. That's the tricky thing about abortion. But you said its a woman's issue, so all in all our opinions on it don't matter. That's all I meant. Hopefully it makes sense.
I'm not saying that it doesn't exist somewhere, but what I am saying is that he's full of shit. He wouldn't pay anyone a dime, nor has he.
How's it going? Thoughts on (1) Don DeLillio (2) Bush giving up golf to honor the troops and (3) Hillary's assertion that winning a primary in WV gives her a mandate to keep running even though it's mathematically impossible for her to win.
McAuliffe's quote is priceless. http://tinyurl.com/6qhz6v
He's the judge and jury on whether to award it. Of course it'll never get paid, since doing so would be an open admission that he lied in his film. Though the offer of an award is both a brilliant marketing gimmick and a sneaky defensive ploy. I've got to give him that.
can't say care for 1) or 2), at the moment: as for 3), Camille Paglia had a lot to say on Hillary in her latest Salon piece. All partisan, political, bullshit aside, I think Paglia's writing ability could unite the various AICN's political factions. Hell, even Rush Limbaugh respects her and comments on her columns.
And are you only referring to fair with regards to Roe vs. Wade, or across the entire spectrum of court rulings?
It seems to me that people have bought what Fox News and the media has sold them on Michael Moore. People in this world are such Goddamn sheep, brainwashed by television, media and yea, movies too. 80% of people are fucking artards! 95% of what Michael Moore stated in his 911 documentary was true, he did use some propoganda but I think that was more cause he realized that people are such idiots they need that 5% of propaganda to sell his point! I'm actaully looking forward to this film and I hope that he touches on the real reason we went into Irag and Afganastan; OIL!!! and for the beginning of the NEW WORLD ORDER!!! which is basicly George H.W. Bushes idea of a one world government, one world religion, one world army, and was actually originated by Hitler (yes fucking Hitler!!!) look this shit up if you dont believe me! If it wasnt for the internet we would probably be in a complete police state and sent off to concentration camps. for anyone interested in the truth about whats really going on with the world... http://100777.com/
hillary and bill have shown their true colors to the dem party...they only care about themselves and fuck the party and fuck the country...well fuck both of them...right up the ass with a hot poker...i will never vote for the lying, race baiting skank...and neither will millions of true progressives
You have my full approval, Michael Moore. Rest easy tonight.
First, you have to decide what is a viable human being. There are four physical characteristics and four mental characteristics that must be met. A human must have the necessary components to constitute a human body, functional ability of said components, the structure of the components must be correct, and there must be spatio-temporal continuity. A human must also possess memories or the ability to obtain memories, intellectual ability, a personality that is consistent with the established pattern of the human, and the capacity for emotions. So, until a child can be reasonably birthed and raised, they are not viable human beings. If you think that an egg becomes a human immediately after conception, then I welcome you to extract the egg at the first sign of morning sickness, cloth the egg, and put it a stroller. Another aspect about abortion is that it's going to happen one way or another. Either it can be done by professionals, or it can be done with coat hangers and such. On a strictly teleological basis, striking abortion as illegal is unethical...
moore proved that one can make a "doc" both interesting and a money maker...problem is, to do so he has had to go over the edge at times, and at times does not tell a perfect story...pbs did a much better program on the run up to the war and how intel was skewed to get the american people sold on the need to attack iraq...it didnt have to use stunts, however, had it been released to theaters, it woulda bombed...
I disagree with Paglia on most political issues... but I always look forward to her columns. I'm saying that her writing ability should serve as an example of how there are intelligent, thoughtful writers on both the left side of the US political debate, and the non-left side of the political debate.
Whether you are pro-choice or pro-life, we can all agree that aborting people like Memories-of-Murder would have been (should have been) permissable because abortion only applies to human life and he's not even that.
 Thank you
I think we agree yet again. It's like I said before, you don't need trick editing or an jaded agenda to make Bush look bad. There are more than enough facts to report in a documentary about Bush that would have the same impact.
Huh. On another note; Danny, the assertion that she can win swing votes is faulty. Swing states are won by independent voters, and Obama absolutely slaughters both McCain and Clinton in that area. Also, check out this article: http://tinyurl.com/5bzbn4
Abortion debates are pointless, because the two opposing sides don't share the same definitions regarding life or it's beginnings.
I have yet to go over to the Indy talkback, so would you be so kind as to tell me your thoughts on Indy 4??
I feel the same way about George Will.
Ah, splendid, I see. Pontificate away!
Some people think that the devil buried dinosaur bones to trick us and have never heard of Justin Martyr. What can you do?
When I was a kid and saw this movie in Blockbuster, my friend and I thought it was about a fat guy and his talking wang.
Id say SIcko ,eventhough sad,is Moores best documentaries. Even if only half of it were true, which it is not, for the majority of it you can investigate for yourself that it is fact. It made me want to move the fuck out of the US..Im still working on that.
Moore used ***some*** propaganda in F911...? Please study some propaganda films -- you'll see that Moore *excels* at it. (Triumph of the Will is of course the classic and arguably the standard-bearer.)
First, I assumed you meant Don DeLillo, but wasn't sure. Second, I've never read any of DeLillo's stuff, so I can't comment on him. Third, "Don DeLillo" is how Wikipedia spells the name, and fourth, that statement proves that I have zero ability to say anything about the man, his writings, or his messages.
was indeed a sad movie. But Moore's portrayal of Cuba was way off. The government controls their health care, too, and they lack all the resources and are understaffed. Great, the Americans got what they needed, way to go. But screw the cubans who get nothing over there. Moore failed to make that point.
Well, you opened it up DGDB and CA, so I might as well jump in.
 Very simply, most of anti-abortion activists could care less about the physical ability of the fetus to survive outside of the womb,
 All are convinced that a human being exists at conception.
 Why?
 Because what you might just consider to be a blastocyst, or collection of cells, others see a soul.
 You will never win an argument with a true anti-abortionist because they believe a spark of the divine exists at conception.
Since when? McCain will carry it without much trouble. This election will come down to PA, OH, and FL just like the last two did. Hillary is correct, though, she could easy carry most or all of those three while Obama will likely only take PA.
swing states are won in the general election by independent voters. There are 70-some million registered democrats, 50-some million republicans, and 40-some million indys. Obama has independents in his corner: While West Virginia was another reminder that Clinton does has more appeal than Obama among lower income whites, the Washington Post/ABC Poll released yesterday shows how much that is offset by his much greater strength among the independent voters who will mainly decide the fall presidential race. The poll showed Obama leading McCain with this key group by nine points -- 51% to 42%. Clinton led McCain by only 3 points, 49% to 46%.
I can't spell Doestoevsky either. Sue me. That was an awful argument. That being said, White Noise and Libra are both great reads. Check them out.
Will more than likely take North Carolina and Virgina, seeing as how Edwards just endorsed him and Mark Warner is running for Senate in VA. He'll more than likely carry Ohio and Pennsylvania, too.
because he's a douche who thinks he's always right and can't stand to listen to anyone who doesn't agree with him. Plus some of the things he's said in the past are funckin illogical and stupid. Like that NoDiggity guy. And that kind of thing really annoys me.
Did you hit that link I posted? That stuff is reaaaallllyyy interesting.
Good books. Libra kicks ass. Sorta underrated in popular literature. Seems only Delillo fans have read it. Great spin on Oswald & the JFK assassination.
Anyone mind letting me in on this one?
you know that the "high rate" of US infant mortality exists because we don't just count third trimester deaths/misconceptions as "infant mortality," yet most other medical systems we get compared to... do. Regardless of opinions, I just don't understand why you want to goad people who view abortion as, literally the same thing as, as killing a baby. It isn't like their hearts or morals are reprehensible, they just place chance at life above political correctness. And, yes, I realize I admitted I am anti-abortion there at the end. But, in complete honesty, I have never treated anyone who has had an abortion badly, or, anyone in favor of abortion.
I actually have studied propaganda films why dont you google Edward Bernays and watch the videos of "The Century of the Self" if you really want to understand propaganda and how the media and government uses it (VERY INTERESTING STUFF). Michael Moore simply used it cause most people are so brainwashed if they dont have propaganda to feed on, they wont get the message!
see the indy 4 talkback for some recent MoM posts, though understand he's far more coherent in general there than he has been historically. Essentially, the guy is just an annoying know-it-all.
he purposely uses the plot to confuse the reader in Libra. And the way that he makes David Ferrie into the ultimate creep. "Farewell, flesh." *shudder*
I don't particularly care for it, but it's going to happen one way or another. And as far as guns go: you shouldn't be able to buy assault rifles and hand guns at gun shows. In fact, why you need an assault rifle is beyond me. When the 2nd amendment was written, the founding fathers didn't have AK-47s in mind...in fact, they couldn't even conceive such a device.
why dont you 2 exchange e-mails and have a private chat! No one wants to here your rants on a topic that has nothing to do with Michael Moore or 911!
My point was, once a woman become pregnant... it's no longer just "her" situation. Sure, she can get an abortion, but by doing so, she will being denying a chance at life for the little bastard she and him created, just to get off.
"I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it."
debates in this TB. This is a movie website, and I apologize to each and every person who read my abortion posts. That topic is way beyond fucked-up to mention in a FILM/TV/VIDEO-GAME website. Apologies. I truly apologize for going "there"
I can. I was there at his funeral. At Gates Kinglsey Gates where Reagan's body was at it has a fountain that myself and two other armed forces personel took turns guarding while there were two Secret Service agents inside with the casket. The fountain rim was covered with accolades for Mr. Reagan from all over the world from all ages, including a flag from England that had a great saying on it. At night, there were small candles people lit around the base of the fountain. It was quite an impressive site. There's a big difference being at an event that is a part of history rather than just spouting off about a man you know nothing about. One of the most moving images was that of a photograph I took with a man and his little girl looking down at all the tributes to Mr. Reagan. If he was such the hated man as you stated, there certainly wasn't any evidence to show for it.
No need to google, I'm familiar with him (I did take some PR and marketing classes in college.) That aside, I don't think Moore uses propaganda because the gov't does; he uses it because he wants to affect change AND/OR make a name for himself. Either way, Moore is BLATANT and PROLIFIC with propaganda -- he doesn't "sometimes" use it.
Don't even think about going back to the Indy Talkback. The "M-o-M for Prez" club is meeting in there right now.
You weren't kidding, were you guys? I can see what you mean now. I've been reading the talkbacks for about two years now, so I'm sure I have seen him at some point. You two really went at it.
the only reason youre up tight about the abortion issue is cause your mother told you long ago she wished you were aborted! and since then you've developed a fetish for black dick, faggot!
I was recently a little more dickish to him in the Indy TB today than I normally am (except about HANCOCK- Fuck that Will SMith trash!!) But the guy is a loser who loves to have people lick his heels or argue how "right" he is.
From what I read, I am with you. Seems like he had it coming. I want to comment on that talkback, but something tells me that it isn't a good idea. I'd rather stay here and try to change the topic to Indy.
I don't feel comfortable commenting just yet, on anything at all, given I just engaged in FUCKING ABORTION DEBATE!!! Regardless of my personal views, that is all sorts of fucked up, especially on a AICN's TB.
Re-read what I posted. Where in that am I goading anyone?
 You have no idea where I stand on the issue. But let me give you a hint.
 I am a God loving Christian.
people still believe he stopped the cold war. He'll be viewed in between LBJ and Ike as far as effectiveness goes...better than LBJ, worse than Ike.
You gotta problem with BLACK DICK? Your BITCH ASS better not bring that racist shit up in this house. Got it, FAGGOT? Don't put your own fears on other people, okay, shitbag?
he tastes best with maple syrup and hashbrowns with a little bitof hot sauce.
 "Now that's a tasty muthafucka!"
"Booooo!" "Fine, abortions for no one!" "Booooo!" "Abortions for some, and miniature American flags for others!" "Yay!"
Don't we ALL wish your ass was aborted
I read a post of yours saying you saw the new Indy film? Did you, or were you just messing around? Oh, and I remember the TOD talkback where they all started to agree it was the most entertaining.
Know I've heard that before -that from Seth McFarlane or South Park?
Let's do it, bitches!
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America sucks.
It's from The Simpsons. Kang and Kodos were running for president.
How does America suck?
So why all the Indy IV hate? I know George Lucas said that the fans will already hate it, but what I took from that comment was that he was implying that there was no way to please all the fans after 19 years. This holds true to the Star Wars movies he recently made. I'm looking forward to it in the same way I looked forward to Rocky Balboa and Rambo.
Season 8, Treehouse of Horror VII, "Citizen Kang"- Kang and Kodos (the slimy space aliens) kidnap Bob Dole and Bill Clinton during the 96 Presidential Race and impersonate them.
Nice. I still remember some posts actually crediting you for getting it done. Weird. I didn't especially like those two reviews either. It's just that none of it made much sense to me, and I refuse to believe that those behind Indy would ruin it the way the reviewers would have you believe.
comparisons between the box office for Indy IV and The Dark Knight? Two different movies opening as far apart as possible in the summer. It's one thing to make a prediction, but come on, to be hell bent on The Dark Knight winning? Who the hell cares? I hope they both make money. I want more good Batman flicks.
of what they already want to think or believe
Oooo! gut punch to Hillary there !

Could be all over in days now.
What do you eat to get that fat?

Michael: Oh I'm anorexic like so many in Hollywood, but I am very very full of shit.
he told me in private later that he eats a ben&jerrys pint for every soldier lost in iraq..touching
Well, actually, considering his huge size, maybe he doesn't need to eat that much BUT he does need to feed that Jupiter sized ego of his by creating more controversy. Of course there will be about as much truth in this film as there were WMDs in Iraq, but since the dimocrats only really care about Bush bashing, MM will still make another small fortune off of this movie. Hell, maybe I should start to emulate him since libs seem to be so willing to throw money at anything that is anti-Bush. So here's the deal, I'll say "FUCK U BUSH" for each $5 that you talk backers send my way. Deal?
He created Darth Vader and Indiana Jones; I don't care if his latest stuff isn't that good, just for dreaming up those two pop culture icons, he's a god.
how dare you assume Moore is a socialist poseur/shameless hypocrite/capitalist. That's the equivalent of accusing a certain, notoriously socialist MIT Linguist of setting up multiple trust funds. To preclude any speculation... I'm talking about the notorious anti-capitalist, anti-American, Noam Chomsky, proud benefactor of all sorts of American tax breaks and US profiteering (but, it's for his children... somewhat, nevermind... Noam quote, "do you expect me to live in a cave?") No, Noam, I don't expect you to live in a cave... because you are a wealthy individual who shields said wealth from taxes... yet preaches everyone equivalent should have their earnings stripped from them. Basically, I'm very glad I hardly ever see Chomsky references on AICN's. But, thank you for proving a clear and perfect example of how financially, economically, and intellectually bankrupt liberalism is.
Moores central thesis was the Iraq war was a bad idea. Ohhhh the CONTROVERSY! Granted it's taken a few years but 70% of Americans now agree with him so fat or not who's lookin smarter now ? The Loyal Bushies or Moore ?
Didn't you know ? You can't possibly criticise any aspect of American foreign policy unless you are on foodstamps and if that's true and not a pathetic student debating point the converse applies of course. Unless you are a multi-Billionaire you are simply "posing" as a Bush Loyalist since you haven't made a fortune you cannot speak with any accuracy or authority about his Policies.

Oh and all the charities and Human rights organisations Chomsky supports ? Who gives a fuck about charity or human rights, right guys ?
...nothing more. Don't forget, most Americans supported the war before the leftist antiwar crowd got it's machine in high gear. Iraq is a low casulty, high reward war. But you wouldn't know that by reading the polls or watching the news.
Start at http://tinyurl.com/4qbd8a and then google Abu Omar. Beware, there is some torture involved.
Funny, for all the wrong reasons.
Yes, you are wrong. Chomsky can't capitalize on the capital markets despite being an anti-capitalist who capitalizes on domestic and foreign capital markers while preaching the evils of everything above... especially the good Ol, US of A, which he demonizes. His life long messages and lifestyles (and tax-returns) are in total, complete disagreement. Noam is a fucktard, despite his excellent work for the Pentagon, from which he has gotten rich off of, for decades; yet, has sold anti-american, leftist, books about the entire time.
is totally different than al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Not even the same organization.
Are you telling me you don't see the teensiest bit of hypocrisy from what Moore and Chomsky practice and what they preach...?
Anyone who buys into Noam Chomsky (aside from his linguistic studies), does not deserve a single TB response, at all, period, because... they are simply beyond rationale or critical thought.
What do you plan doing after graduating?
I think you told me to revisit Locke? Second Treatise on Government? That's got to be the slowest, most torturous read I've ever put myself through...never again!!! (And the conversation was about "libertarianism" as a distributive justice theory, not a political ideology, fyi.)
I don't want to go into anything geographically specific... but I'm planning to spend a year working in a small, business related law firm, to decide if I want to enroll in Law School versus a Masters Program in Economics.
Yeah that certainly sounds low casualty and high reward if you have Rove Tinted glasses or FOX news for a brain.

BTW how did the only other modern President to achieve Bush's disaproval ratings fare after "his snapshot in time" before he was booted out ?

NIXON! History remembers him as a Populist Hero almost as much as Vietnam is now remembered as a low casualty, high reward war.

P.S. The actual News from Iraq is that Muqtada Al Sadr's Mahdi Army has seen off the botched attempts to disband his Militias and Death squads and now holds more power on the ground than the fairly irrelevant Ruling Council who cannot venture outside the Green Zone.
http://tinyurl.com/5yqp2d. "Italian authorities suspected Abu Omar of... recruiting volunteers to fight in Iraq on the eve of the U.S. invasion..." This from the notoriously left-wing LA Times.
Good luck. You're from Texas but go to Harvard? Is that right?
Try reading some translated Kraut philosophy for torturous reads... seriously, refresh yourself on Kant or most any dead Kraut, and then complain about Locke. As Mark Twain once entitles an actual book: "The Horrors of the German Language."
The Pentagon already came out with multiple reports that refute that chestnut. The Pentagon, that liberal think tank. Give it up.
I'd much rather read Kant than Locke. Those paragraph long multiple compound sentences do me in.
Bad enough. Point: Stevie.
The Italians are currently conducting a trial regarding, among other things, Abu Omar.
I'm genuinely curious now as you still seem to think this isn't the idiotic & cheap smear it so clearly is.

Can you say anything only faintly critical of American Foriegn Policy and certain aspects of Capitalism if you have $100,000 or does that amount entitle you to be fairly robust ? What about $5000 a year can you then be as bitingly harsh as you wish ? what about say $10 Million ? does that only allow you to call NeoCons a bit misguided, say ?

And of course you still haven't answered my question how little can you earn before endorsing everything Bush says ? Does $70,000 only allow you to be fairly lukewarm in you approval of Bush Foreign policy while 50 Million allows you to shout it from the rooftops ? How about McCain ? Yes he's obviously Rich but is he Rich ENOUGH ? Does he have to treble his forttune before he can be a true champion of Capitalism ?

Important, feeble and stupid questions I'm sure you'll agree.

How do you recommmend they "practice what they preach" ? Apart from supporting charities and causes they believe in of course ? Should they put everything they own into truck drive oti onto main street America and say "there you go help yourself" should they sell their homes take their children out of schools cash it all in and rent a Helicopter to dump it onto a city below in banknotes ? Or can they say leave themselves enough to eat bread and soup for them and their children every week thus mitigating their supposed hypocrisy ? Or does the fact that niether of them are communists make this conversation even more retarded than it already was ?
Chomsky is worthless... wait for it... Because you say he is !!!!

Fucking devastating use of rational critique and argument there my friend, truly inspiring.
my response is: what is the "cutoff in $ before you can't criticize?" (I spelled "criticize" correctly, otherwise... direct quote, different question). And, finally, G100 is obviously not a different moniker for the same TBer, because you would know that I am hardly a fan of the neo-cons, or McCain, or the present state of the Republican Party.
read Chomsky, then read his tax returns... two totally different statements (and only one is obviously accurate).
The End.
Man you ARE throwing the whole of rational enlightenment thought and socratic discourse at me aren't you ?

It's the same question only quantified into something less vague than they have alot of Money so they can't possibly have an opinion.

I know perfectly well you are no fan of Bush or the NeoCons but niether are those two so tell me are YOU also too "rich" to critiZe them ?
what the fuck are you talking about? Have you read more than an essay or two by Chomsky? Or are you just defending his socialist, trust -fund/tax-dodging ass because he is a "Icon" for liberalism?
I believe his is entitled to have been allowed to keep way more of his money than he's paid in taxes; but, my problem with Chomsky is he says the exact opposite but avoids certain tax rates to preserves some of his wealth. Also, Hugo Chavez is a huge fan of Chomsky; really, do I need to say anything else?
is skewed liberally. Nobody would read the site if they were really pseudo-intellectual retards.
Yeah I've read his books so what the fuck are YOU talking about ?

If the best you can do is throw labels at him like FOX News hoping they will stick then pardon me while I laugh at your supposed hatred of the NeoCons and their way of thinking because from where I'm sitting you just bought into them wholesale.

At least you have acknowledged he isn't a communist but are you aware that there are countries all over the world led by socialist Governments ? Or do you think your one size fits all smear really has the force than it's now defunct Communist associations ? Some of these "socialist" Governments were almost as Rabid as Bush, Blair in Britain being a prime example particularly on foreign Policy. His views are hardly just "anti-capitalist socialism" nice though it would be for certain people to stick him into that box and not have to think about it. So pardon me if I think there is more to the man than his Linguistic achievments in generative grammar but you are more than welcome to your little hate fest because I never dismiss people or thier opinions on the basis of someone throwing a couple of labels at them.

And you still haven't answered my question are you too "rich" to cricize any elements of American Capitalism or it's Foreign Policy ?
but I'm too bummed out about just reading that polar bears have been added to the official US threatened species list, despite the fact that we only started recording polar bear populations in the past few decades... and the current polar bear population is (literally) larger than at any point in their recorded history. I seriously hope the environmentalists don't get a totally random, insane hair up their collective ass and start protecting invasive species next, such as feral hogs or africanized bees.... BEARS, No. 1 THREAT.
No, I'm not rich, but I'm going to what I can to someday earn over a 100 grand in official salary, yet not have to work over half of the year just to "pay my fair share," cause that's total bullshit. And, the Euro model would wreck the American markets. And, yes, all Chomsky should get credit for is his linguistics work, and his decades of work for the Pentagon (while writing and speaking against the US/Military Industrial complex the entire time). You, clearly, don't know anything about the man.
Just because some religious nutball calls for his assassination, FOX News and Bush hate him and he makes eccentric but amusing speeches attacking Bush at the U.N. do you think that makes Chavez the Anti-Christ ? He's hardly the perfect leader but he did pull millions out of poverty so save your disgust for those who truly earn it like the Burmese Junta.

And for someone who tells us he isn't a NeoCon or Bush supporter you look are looking more and more like a former supporter who just doesn't want to be stuck with the negative associations since you are spouting their and FOX News talking points.

As for the minutia of Chomsky or Moores Tax returns, well I'm no accountant and I don't believe Chomsky or Moore is either so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt since neither has been arrested and believe they are complying with American Tax Law in it's entirety though I've yet to come across Chomsky's essay on why private citizens have to pass Stevies Tax inspection before they can hammer the likes of Enron, WorldCom and the REAL Tax criminals or have any sort of discourse on why completely unregulated Financial Systems and Corporations always land us in the shit like the Sub Prime Scandal so clearly has.
I think his theses are generally right, but I think he usually picks bland examples to make his points, and as far as I'm concerned he has never really lived up to his reputation for provocation. I guess people have taken to self-centered anecdotes, but the facts are usually more damning, and would make his films stronger. Anyone with a basic understanding of the issues he targets probably knows MANY more flashy stories than what make it into Moore's films, which as I recall are often focused on Moore asking questions to people who ignore him. THAT counts as provocative?
Chavez defense is the straw that broke my camel's back of taking you seriously. You know there's not even toilet paper in Caracas? And Chavez's solution to stopping inflation was to have the central bank knock a couple zero's off the currency? Do you even know that his nation has one of the top ten largest economies several decades ago... and now it's facing food shortages? G100, you're defense of not only Chomsky, but now Chavez, precludes me ever taking anything you say seriously again.
Or does your appreciation of the Colbert just extend to his noble fight against the Bears ?

Perhaps it's passed you by but Colbert regularly pummels the Libertarian "fuck society I want my ALL my Tax money" types on a regular basis.
And tell me what weapons did Chomsky pioneer and perfect when he was "working" for the Military ? Or better yet what foreign policy Military "adventure" did he champion while doing so ? Or are you seriously trying to cionflate Pentagon funding of university studies with active support of Military foreign Policy ? Because that sounds like just another feeble guilt by assocaition attack.(So beloved of those *gasp* NeoCons !)

I clearly know enough about the man to spot obvious bullshit smears thrown at him peddled by those who cannot stand him.
I saw Sicko, and he completely missed the mark on drugs in the US, and technologies' driving force in the rising health care costs in every first world nation. I wasn't surprised, though, I'd seen Roger & Me and Bowling for Columbine so I wasn't expecting any "documentary" that was supposed to resemble the truth... but I honestly have to reconsider the premise of "sheeple" given the existence of Michael Moore fans.
good one, G100. You do a half decent job of pretending that you know what you're talking about. Congrats. Most of the "I want to be an individual" liberals I know have more words in their vocabulary than "neo-con," oh, wait...
Becuase it sounds like you've swallowed the Propaganda wholesale.

To repeat Chavez isn't the perfect leader and he HAS done some fairly counterproductive things BUT The "Bolivarian Missions" have entailed the launching of government anti-poverty initiatives, the construction of thousands of free medical clinics for the poor, the institution of educational campaigns that have reportedly made more than one million adult Venezuelans literate, and the enactment of food and housing subsidies. The infant mortality rate fell by 18.2% between 1998 and 2006. The government earmarked 44.6% of the 2007 budget for social investment, with 1999-2007 averaging 12.8% of GDP.

The EVIL bastard ! Imagine making all those poor people literate and feeding and housing them.

Tell you what I'll stack your gullible acceptance & parroting of FOX News and the NeoCons views on Chavez against my appraisal of him as flawed but hardly comparable to the Burmese Junta or Saddam or Bin Laden or the Suadi Royal Family or even China's repressive regime and we'll see who can be taken more "seriously".
Sicko was great. And Fahrenheit 9/11 was way ahead of its time.
And thanks for confirming your "superiority" by resorting to namecalling and ignoring the questions.
no, I get my facts from NBER, the FED, various economic papers, and other papers I read off JSTOR. To repeat, if you defend Chavez, you clearly don't understand reality (or that different nations employ different definitions regarding census info, or that certain nations' census info can't be taken as fact). I've already told you, I can't take you seriously anymore: meaning, you shouldn't even bother responding to anything I post, because I can't take it seriously. But, have a good one anyways, I got a poker game to get to.
"You know, I used to be a Democrat/Moderate/ Liberal/Progressive but after hearing/seeing/reading an outrageously anti-American Noam Chomsky/Hugo Chavez/ Obama/Michael Moore book/article/ speech/movie, I totally changed my opinions politically, and ran out into the street and blew the first Republican/Neocon /Fox News Anchor/ I met! Honest! I, an idealogical stranger on the internet, wouldn't dare lie to you!"
Knows what he's talking about. The guy's good.
May 14, 2008, 9:49 p.m. CST
by BringingSexyBack
We've got dozens of drugs for penis enlargement and erectile dysfunction that guys like MorbidObesity spend their weekly paycheck on but the development of drugs should be guided by the needs of the many and not the wants of the few.
 What's this crap about the high cost of technology? Why are we spending $340 Million a day in Iraq? Why are we not investing in developing medicines and making them accessible to the world, at a reasonable cost? To provide medicines to help the world would go a lot further to winning the "War on Terrorism" than actual war does. It's called goodwill, and that's what made America great.
 The pharmaceutical industry is gauging Americans, plain and simple.
 And we know it's in vogue in certain circles to bash Noam Chomsky, but really, it's all pretty baseless.
Although they do that too, the fuckers.
More interested in "The Dark Knight". Also, watching the dynamics of this upcoming election is better than the NFL...well, not really, but close.
Yup. Jared Allen in your craw!
But I'll be blunt, Stevie. You're in college now, living in a sheltered environment. I'm fairly certain your views will change once you get into the work world. Shit's different out here.
... by saying that the greatest sacrifice of the war is that he had to quit playing golf. Discuss.
You are the very definition of a "serious" debater Stevie.

Bringing up Typos, repeating easily disproved smears and when all else fails just complain that any information that disproves your own rash assumptions you once heard on FOX News is incorrect, BECAUSE YOU SAY IT IS. Utterly Convinving Stuff.

Christ even your last pathetic Gambit "the feeble attempt to condescend" needs a hell of alot of work. Ive heard better comebacks from Brane.

The Reality is you don't like to be questioned and clearly don't like it when someone counters your Libertarian (ahh... those Libertarian realists with their Ross Perot and their Ron Paul champions of the Nations disembrained) worldview with, you know, facts.
May 14, 2008, 10:03 p.m. CST
by BringingSexyBack
Come on, Stevo. You're better than that. I think his emotions just got the better of him, G.
Is a lot less than the cost of failed entitlements. Yet you Lefties never seem to concerned about that. The casulties I care about most are Americans, since the deaths of Iraqis at the hands of Iraqis has been the status quo for decades now. The loss of 4000 soldiers over a 5 year ground war, while tragic is low casulty. How many did we lose on Dday?
don't give my that "once you're in the real world" crap, I've spent the last several summers in cities living off, at most 2,5000 a month, usually much, much, less. and, the pharma market structure and international market isn't what yall seem to think it is either. got get back to my poker game now. if i don't get back to this tb tonight, have a good one.
I wish I had 25,000 a month, I meant 2,500 a month. Someday, maybe.
Sorry but anyone who throws a few ancient smears at Chomsky in a futile attempt to discredit him then repeats Propaganda about Chavez might be allright at times but I point you to his attempts to condescend when he is under pressure and ask, Really ?

The REAL World as has been said is different. It isn't a theoretical Poker Game where no-one gets hurt or the poor & homeless don't die from starvation or neglect.

The Bombs & Bullets in the Real World don't just explode in a pretty firework display either. They maim and kill and tear apart people indiscriminately. And those people on the TV in China and Burma ? They aren't statistics either or factors in an economics paper. They are Mothers, Sons, Fathers Daughters. In short REAL people like the real people who will be made redundant and losing their homes in America in ever increasing numbers if things go on as they are.

Stevie may be a Great Guy, sure, but the sort of Rabid Free Market Libertarians who have so prospered under Bush aren't my idea of great guys and Stevie seems perilously close to them in his arguments.
...losing their homes can read the fine print on their mortgages next time. You know...not spend what they can't afford? Grown-ups take a look at their finances before making the biggest purchase of their lives. Knuckle heads get foreclosure...
That's what I'm trying to tell Stevie. I'm not talking about salary, I'm talking about joining the human rat race. Not talking about starvation, exploitation, war, hunger and disease in the abstract.
Are you referring to Bear Stearns?
For the most part, people should be far more careful what they sign when they buy a home. That, however, doesn't mean there aren't predatory lenders and attorneys who screw honest people - people (especially the attorneys) they owe a fiduciary duty to to protect.
Clarify: Are you referring to Bear Stearns?
"My lips are my private business. Stay away from my lips and do not even attempt to read them."
So bears knocked down the Towers?
Ever seen a circumsized bear cock? I have.
That's not funny. A circumsized bear cock killed my mother.
Predatory lending? I hear that phrase a lot and it still makes me scratch my head. At the end of the day, no one can make a potential home buyer purchase more than they can afford. There is no Jedi mind trick that forces anyone to sign anything. Let the buyer beware.
you're complaining about small-time saps signing mortages that they're getting hoodwinked on, and Bear Stearns has the federal government bail them out. I guess financial relief only applies to the wealthy, eh?
But I'm sure she went out with a smile.
 BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAA!!!
A lawyer forced my mother, at gunpoint, to sign a lending contract that she couldn't afford. That's when the bear cock came into play. I guess you could say it saved her in a way...
Ummmmm.... are you aware that the bulk of the problem in the subprime mortgage meltdown is due to the ARM (adjustable rate)? People who signed up for such mortgages were given initial payments that were fixed, and apparently affordable, for a period of anywhere from 3 to 5 years. Thereafter, the payments shoot way the hell up. But the problem is that that figure is an unknown at the time of the mortgage origination. It's based on the prime rate + a percentage at the time the fixed expires. No lawyer or mortgage lender, practically speaking, has ever discouraged those subprime borrowers by telling them the real implications of the ARM. Now as for the investors who bought on zero-down subprime mortgages and knew they could walk away from the properties without a loss to themselves - fuck them up the ass. That's a different breed of mortgagees.
The current sub-prime & credit crunch crisis wasn't caused by simple foreclosures. It was caused by Banks and other institutions buying Financial "products" into which sub-prime mortgages had been "packaged" along with other loans (some quality, some not) and then sold on as grade A securities etc.

The fact that these packages were often incredibly complex and hard to read financially is why so many Banks etc. were affected.

Put simply some were actually Grade A but most were not and finding out which were the Lemons and which were still worth something caused chaos as every kind of package now raised the spectre that at the heart of it may be untold Millions of the shaky sub-prime kind.

But here I defer to those in Ecnomics who can go into this in more depth. Though the facts of the matter are these "packages" should clearly have warranted more scrutiny and those that received grade A status were obviously a failure of regulation.
Well...the fallout of a bigger collapse would have driven the stock market down 800 points so...yes a bailout was appropriate. On the other hand, it's BS's fault for loading up on the sub prime dopes so...no a bailout was not appropriate. Can make a case either way. NOW...financial relief hardly ever applies to the wealthy. That's why they pay 80% of the Income Tax. Make some real money...then look at your paycheck...then come back to me with your "wealthy relief."
should deal directly with these boards and the collapse of fun since the Indiana Jones reviews came in. Triumph of the human spirit? Yeah, this movie would be the opposite.
"Sunnis! Why did it have to be Sunnis?!"
"Four dollars a gallon on my salary? Asps. you go first."
(I got a second here) they just weren't grade A, legislation was passed that allowed the bundling of risky mortages into triple A security bonds. Then, a few years back, housing prices rose 60% above construction and material costs... but that didn't slow the market down despite clear evidence of it being a bubble about to pop. The sub-prime bullshit was truly bullshit: no one holds the actual mortages in them, investors and creditors just hold cuts of the risk. A decade from now, everyone will look back and wonder why everyone was so stupid, while the next bubble occurs...
Yes...I had an 3-1 ARM. I was smart enough to read my mortgage and realize that each year it adjusts based on the prime rate + a percentage at the time the fixed expires. That's why I refied at a 30 year fixed and later a 15 year fixed. Shame on the dopes who don't understand their mortgages. It's the buyer's responsibility to do the homework, this is not a game for children. You are buying a HOUSE! I hope they enjoy their new apartments!
The Economist had a decent article about why the bail-out was the right move a couple months ago, cause it was entangled in trillions of dollars of transactions.
I think it'll hit $5 or close, by mid-July. Hold onto your potatoes!
"We're getting out of the US. All of us."
Make more money!!
But your mother is lobbying for health insurance and dental dams, the hoe is driving my costs the hell up!!!!
I disappear for several hours to cook dinner, scold my daughter and watch the Celtics game only to come back and see everyone is still going at it. Boy, as a newcomer I tried to make an impression by posting what I thought were long, well thought out, hardcore entries, but I'm just a lightweight.
 And that Stevie Grant sure is one informed son of a gun so I'll give him beaucoup credit there. I just don't happen to agree with his take on life and that's cool because to each his own.
 And Danny's right, these TBs have been messed up lately what with all the political talk. We need Indy's hat and lips on Optimus to bring the spark back.
 And for old time's sake, why doesn't Harry throw up the "sexiest tomboy beanpole" ad again just to stir things up?
Maybe you could try Sales? You can definitely talk it. BUT...you'll end up a Conservative! No such thing as a Lefty SalesRep
Man, I'm not doing well on the "your mom" front tonight ...
The same thing happened over in Britain with a large Company called Northern Rock who were primarily Mortgage based but had bought HUGE amounts of these "packages" too. The British Government tried to sell it off for weeks bet there were no takers and in the end it was Nationalised with the Government and the Bank of England taking up the Risk (100 Million £ sterling I think)

Point is it was too big to let fail like Bear Sterns BUT that didn't excuse the Incompetence and the Blame from being squarely at their door.

Though I'm not sure what you mean by they just weren't grade A stevie. They certainly SHOULDN'T have been grade A but that's how they were classed. Is that the gist of it ?
Only the duplicity of it.
just folded again... and that whole bundling scheme just doesn't apply to mortages... it spread like the fucking ebola virus. For example, if you have some extra cash you want to see frozen, you can invest in a similar scheme with municiple bonds or all sorts of other (previously) safe havens. From an economic perspective, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out; as an US citizen, I'm hoping I can dodge most of the fallout. And that whole, not worth responding to stuff, I was just being pissy. Apologies.
my point was they just weren't just grade A, many got AAA security ratings (I was pointing out that it was even worse/"safer" than just A).
I think there is another "package" still causing even wider shockwaves and fear "Credit Default Swaps" (C.D.S.)if I remember rightly. They involve TRILLIONS.

Actually there is a Brit proggie I found and D/Led called "Dispatches - How the Banks Bet your Money" which goes into it in rather scary detail and I think it's on youtube too. I would recommend it to anyone as a solid proggie but especially to those more familiar with the denser Economic theories like yourself.
This is even worse than "discussing" the Stone film. There seems to be nothing other than another round of ad hominem for all involved. As for Moore, like any savy business man, he knows the cash cow of the Bush Bash has entered its twilight. Still, as I have no expectations for either his film and no intention of seeing it, I don't see what all the fuss is about. If you really want to see what Mr. Moore is about, watch the documentary Manufacturing Dissent, a film by a Canadienne leftist no less, regarding Moore's various shall we say artistic license with documentary film making.
If Moore's going to take an overview of what has happened since Farenheit 9/11 then the Economy will be in there somewhere Guaranteed.

Most of it will prolly involve what happened to Iraq and the Media going by his first one though with Bush and Co. takin the Brunt of the swipes.
For the Northern Rock thing. Which proves this thing is Global and many not be over.

P.S. I will watch New Indy. Below par or no it's still worth a watch surely ?
all this is dumb
John McCain should have won the nomination in 2000. Unfortunately, he is far too honorable a man, and he was robbed of the nomination by a Texan cowboy, who then proceeded to steal the presidency too. Because of his experiences in Vietnam, McCain has a degree of humility and indeed humanity lacking in a certain Texan cowboy who shirked his duties to go and smoke weed or snort coke. McCain is a decent human being and a fine politician. But with his pledge for a 100 Year War in Iraq, he would bankrupt America. I mean, the federal government is already borrowing billions in anticipation of future growth that ISN'T COMING. America is going to crash and crash hard if it keeps going on this path. America needs a President who won't ask Congress for another $150 billion emergency bail-out every four months. McCain has missed the boat. A vote for him is a vote for the continuation of the Bush disaster.
I love when libs try to bash conservatives over the head with "but have you ever watched it?" Quick story - my lib friend glorified F9/11. I told her that I would be happy to watch it with her, as long as she would watch FahrenHYPE 9/11 with me. She refused. I watched Moore's "doc" on my own, and wrote down over 3 pages of lies, half-truths, and blatant misleading just of my own accord while I watched it. Then I watched FahrenHYPE and was not surprised at how many of those things I wrote down that they covered in that response to Moore's trashy film. I've also watched Moore's other pics, including Roger & Me (actually liked it) and Bowling for Columbine (more crazy editing for his own nefarious purposes). The only one I haven't watched is Sicko. Now, how many of the lefties out there can claim to have watched a conservative anti-Moore doc like FahrenHYPE 9/11 or Michael Moore Hates America (which isn't as anti-Moore as you might think from the title)???
Stop propagating the whole 100-year-war thing when you know that isn't what he said. We're not in debt or going bankrupt because we kept troops in Korea or Germany, and we won't be by keeping the same kind of troop level in Iraq. Yes, war costs money, imagine that. We went through a much, much harder time during World War II. We're not even close to that in America now. Or have I missed something and the Army is now contacting people to ask for their spare scrap metal? John McCain is the right pick for the job based on what you already indicated regarding his experiences (and more). If your only negative thing against him is that he wouldn't immediately pull troops from Iraq, you should know that despite all the rhetoric from Obama and Clinton, neither of them would remove ALL troops immediately, nor even in the long run, and both have said as such (or via their campaign persons) already.
Your views are your own, and you certainly have a right to them. When I saw "Libs" in the title of your post, I knew I wouldn't be reading anything new or rational. I suppose I could thank you for warning me not to waste my time, but I'd prefer it if you just gave up the hardcore partisan crap that I know is the meat of your posts and behaved like a human instead of a politico.
So had I actually wrote out the word "liberal" instead of saving space in the title so as not to have it get cut off, you mean you wouldn't have taken the time to reply to my post (but not address the specific content of it or the question I posed)? Good to know. I'm not sure what's irrational about my post asking why libs (er, sorry, liberals) get on conservatives about not watching their documentaries when they never watch ours either. But I'm a conservative, so you obviously must be smarter than I am, going by the quote you posted earlier. Because that was a perfect example of how to behave like a human instead of a partisan.
Thanks--and yes, I read that one. I really do believe Mill's quote; my every experience tells me that it is 100% true. It's not a partisan thing as far as I'm concerned, as it clearly points out that conservatives can be thoughtful and intelligent--but it also points out the truth that ignorance generally results in conservative viewpoints. "Libs" isn't an abbreviation; it's an epithet on par with "neocon", and can certainly compete with it for vitriolic vacuousness. In any case, as a small-"L" libertarian, modern day conservatives and liberals as represented by the two major political parties look pretty much the same to me. It's amusing to watch people get so worked up over labels when the policies are always status quo.
However, I fully intended its use as an abbreviation, not a slur. If I truly wanted to be vitriolic, I could have used a much different term. Neocon, on the other hand, is an abbreviation of a word fully intended as a slur (not many conservatives would actually label themselves neo-conservatives, while many liberals are fine with calling themselves liberals). As for the quote, I must unabashedly disagree as I am surrounded (in a pretty conservative area of the U.S. - southwest Missouri) by many ignorant folks that align themselves with the left. Most of my friends would call themselves Democrats but without even really knowing why (it usually falls back on some kind of argument wherein they say Clinton was a great president, therefore his wife would also be a great president, though they can't name me one thing that he did which made him great in their eyes). I think stupid people (and this covers the gamut, from ignorant to actually IQ-deficient) easily tend to fall onto either side of the aisle. It really depends upon their upbringing, including what political affiliation their parents held or what they see on television, which unfortunately means a lot of people will swing left for no reason other than John Stewart is a funny guy. Perhaps I am in fact an odd-man-out, in that although my parents are Republicans, I actually read the news and keep myself informed, make political choices based on what I believe to be proper policies and not straight-party lines, and as a member of Mensa and a high-scorer on several other standardized intelligence tests, am not mentally deficient. I understand the stigma of the backwoods redneck voting conservative/Republican, however there are plenty of opportunities to refute that (just look at W.Virginia for one example). As for libertarians, I actually agree with many of the principles of that party (end the drug war, institute the fair tax, etc.). So I've got nothing against your choice to stay away from the major parties; in fact, in life I routinely like to root for the underdog and I wouldn't be adverse to voting for one if I really though there was any solid base of support and if the conservative in the race was lacking. But you will never find me in agreement with the standard policies of liberals, and therefore I will take them to task, especially over little things such as the documentary issue I raised. I've got no issue with you, Boromir, I was just surprised that you felt the need to draw me out specifically as being a hardcore partisan hack (especially when I haven't posted in a very long time here at AICN, and it was my first in this TB).
Or just a new alias? I guess we'll never know...
More lives lost in Iraq than by all terrorist attacks. The same amount of money spent in the US on health care, road improvements etc instead of Iraq could have saved many thousands of lives. Money well spent?
So are the inadequacies of AICN's archaic message board system, which can't properly relate how long someone's been a member. For what it's worth, the oldest post I can dig up via Google can be located here: http://tinyurl.com/62xcz2. It's roughly about 3 years old, though I've been a member for much longer (and a reader for much longer than that).
Typical liberal argument technique! If a liberal can't win with facts, they call conservatives "mean" or question the other person's intelligence. Wow. How many times in this thread has George Bush been called dumb or stupid? If he is in FACT dumb then he is the first mentally challenged person in history to have graduated Harvard with an MBA at the top of his class...was allowed to fly multi-million dollar aircraft in the Texas Air National Guard(ever seen the test for that shit?)...got elected Governor of Texas on his own merits...and got elected President TWICE, despite the entire liberal media against him...Oh, he's a friggin retard! The reason the democrats LOST the last two elections and WILL LOSE this one is this: They put the most unlikely person as a candidate. Is this country ready to be lead by the wife of the only sitting IMPEACHED president? A President who lied under oath to a Grand Jury, concealed evidence in a federal investigation, coerced witness testimony, threatened witnesses, and was credibly accused of rape. You go, Democrats! Or Barrack HUSSEIN Obama. Half Muslim who says he doesn't want to wear an American flag lapel pin because he doesn't want to be perceived as "Taking sides" and won't stand and place his hand over his heart during our National Anthem. Real Patriots you people pick for a candidate...good luck in November!
Cool! People like you really DO exist.
 I'll go call off the search now.
i don't find anything "decent' about a guy who cheated on his millionaire wife, (decent? no flawed like most people? yes!) let alone the old fart was against slain Civil hts leader MLK having a holiday.
 Also I'm curious how the fuck did he get out of Hanoi Hilton without signing that paper.(you know what I'm refering to.)Oh , Zofan if you're still around, I'm not here to spoonfeed you on the hows and whys regarding Bush's screwing over the poor and working class.Isn't it obvious with what has been going on during the past years, or are you just too oblivious? I can type a laundry list, but hey, I belive that most of us are already in the loop.
This is a question which I do not believe that Democrats or Republicans can properly answer... If you say that you love this country so much then why are you so dismissive of the tearing up of the Constitution?
You use the term Muslim as if it were an insult. But your general stupidity is best manifested when you use the term "half-muslim"! So does that mean that Obama is both equal parts Mooooslim and Christian? Or is he is real cosmopolitan man and is 1/3 Jewish 1/3 Christian and 1/3 Muslim?!!! Dumbass
Thanks recommending Assembly, I finally got my hands on a copy and i must say that it is one of the best foriegn War dramas I have seen. It's the "feel good" Movie just in time for Memorial Day.XD
but seriously, good film. sometime this week I'll check out Memories of Murder (no not theguy on these forums! but the Korean suspense film, so that's where he got his ID from.)and looking forward to Machine girl which is prolly on the same line as the live action Subean Deka Movie. (AKA Yo Yo Cop girl)
I am unabashed in my support for Obama, but I refuse to demonize McCain because he is the opposition.
 He is a good man. Flawed- certainly. And he has commited highly questionable, if not outright illegal acts - see Charles keating scandal.
 His personal life is a matter between him and his wife, and I do not think it should be grounds for speculation.
 There is no doubt that as he tries to corral the conservative vote to his side, he will tack heavily rightward, and he will spout some views I find detestable. This will dimimish him in my eyes and in the eyes of many, because it goes against what he stood for, for many years.
 It will be a sad affair, because a good man will have succumbed to the lure of power.
May 15, 2008, 9:08 a.m. CST
by waitingimpatientlyforingloriousbastards
No, I don't believe you could type a grocery list. Like all of your likeminded liberal clones, you speak in general loose terms handfed to you my the media. It's no wonder you probably support Obama who speaks in equally generic terms, offering change and hope. Hope in what? Him?? Give me a break. Look at his voting record! I'd rather have Hilary, and I thought I'd never see the day when I'd say that...
Axis of Evil? Islamofacism? Terror? Insurgents? Enemy Combatants? WMDs? All terms used to steer public opinion into thinking that the world is about to end unless to attack sovereign nations.... (Oh I forgot another cracker "Al-Qaeda in [insert the country you want to attack]" Such examples include Sudan, Palestine, Iraq, Syria!
Bush is a friggin retard!
Are you fucking kidding me? If anything the joke is on you pedestrian minded Necons, who's court jester is none other than your Prez and his good ol' boys who can't even find America's most wanted not to mention outing a CIAgent and then there's the war effort as in invading the wrong country but then again there are motives, borrowing money from the Chinese, more outsourcing of American jobs,the economy (stupid)etc,etc,fucking etc..
 Media? I take it you feel that FOX news is actually "Fair and balanced"?I fucking laugh at you guys and the fact that you feel Obama isinexperienced,what do you think of Dubya's approval rating?He's just another puppet.The jury is out on Obama, but he can't possibly fuck up as much as the sitting President.
Fuck, if that bitch Hillary was'nt such a race baiter and a phoney I would have considered her for the candidacy.
If you are happy with "Granbo"in the white house, head to the polls this November.Good luck.you might need it.
PS yeah, I'm still waiting for the Inglorious Bastards remake too and i'm also waiting for Dick and Bush to get the fuck out of office.Be patient thyself.
We all dislike the current Adminstration right now due to the current state America is in. Gas Prices, the Economy & Americas perception across the globe. If it wasn't for Bush we wouldn't be here. So we need to pool our resources and create a Time Machine. We have to go back to 2000 (To Avoid a serious Paradox)& help Al Gore by fixing The Florida Recount. & everything will be Peachy. I promise NO paradoxes. Worst Case Scenario we alter a Alternate Reality.
Good point, and I wasn't aware of his role in the S&L crisis.Sure McCain served in 'Nam unlike that cokehaed,drunktard Bush during that era.But he is suspect nonetheless.I give him props for reaching out to the folks in Louisiana, just the skeptic in me looks at some ulterior motive.Maybe he is a good man, but no doubt the republican "dark side" will further seduce him and as a result, we'll be in Iran next.
At the end of the day, it's the Conservatives, who are running this country further in the toilet.
May 15, 2008, 10:11 a.m. CST
by BringingSexyBack
It's true.
It's true.
I'm glad you enjoyed the Assembly. The combat sequences were a little over the top but very well choreographed.
 Memories of Murder is a great, if depressing movie. Superb performances and direction.
 I watched "An Empress and the Warriors" on the weekend with Donnie Yen and even though it's inconsistent, it's still a pretty entertaining flick. And it's only 90 minutes so if you don't like it, you're wasting very little of your time.
I agree, I've watched both F9/11 and Fahrenhype 9/11, but damned if I can get any of my liberal/Democrat/progressive friends to watch Fahrenhype -- yet they urge me to "open my mind." In any case, I'm not sure that Boromir really answered that particular dichotomy.
What a terrific movie! (though, as Hawaiian mentioned, depressing) It's a constant source of amazement that Asia is coming up with great films left and right, and Hollywood is still so hit-and-miss with quality dramas or thrillers.
Seriously why would someone watch a Movie that's only claim to fame is it's riding the coat-tails of a far popular movie but want's to put it's own slant on said popular movie ?

What's next, film student dropout remakes of Jaws from the Sharks point of view ? Casablanca from the POV of the Nazi's ? 2001 reshot with all the things that didn't happened by then left out so it's more "accurate" ?

If there are serious substantive facts contained in any of these films just post a weblink to em or outline em yourself since you sat through F9/11 with a Pen and Notepad ready to scribble down these supposed horrible lies yourself. (as all non-Partisan film watchers do when watching a Movie of course)

Because believe me, nobody is going to sit through hours of some amateur hack piece that quibbles with trivial minutia in every frame.

you hate Moore's Politics ? Fine, but he IS a film-maker. And if any of those unknown films you mentioned had some skill behind them perhaps you wouldn't have to shill them on here.

Incidently I presume the same logic dictates for every hour of FOX News you should have to then watch an hour of Real News ?

Oh and deztroyer, Bush was NEVER tested for "that shit" in the Texas National Guard. That's why he was never there so he could avoid the mandatory test for "that shit". Though I am surprised you'd bring up Bush's alledged Cocaine use for someone who seems to be a Loyal Bushie.

Hmm... One President gets a blow job and one gets to see everything he touches blow up in his face like the Economy, Healthcare & Iraq. I wonder which one they tried to impeach and which one left office infinitely more popular ?
Deztroyer, Perhaps you could just vote a 100foot square flag pin into office then you could be sure it wasn't a secret muslim whose actual Pastor has been all over the News for weeks and whose name sounds like a furrinur evildoooir !!

P.S. Does anything new(ish) approach Oldboy these days from that part of the world ? This M.O.M. for instance ?
So...can I take it that you haven't seen Fahrenhype 9/11? or Michael & Me? or Manufacturing Dissent? If you haven't...why? They're not all based strictly on F9/11.
Yes, actually, I watch Fox and CNN about evenly. I also read LA Times and Wall Street Journal. I find life is a lot easier when you maintain some balance.
Hard for me to like one versus the other -- I like them for differing reason. But frankly, I'm kinda to the point where if the movie comes from Korea, it's almost automatically a good movie, no matter the subject matter. Did anyone here see Tai Guk Gi? GREAT film.
Michael Moore is in the entertainment industry. His palette is propaganda. Which uses selected facts puts them in a sequence to purposely pull on the emotional strings of the viewer. This is his art. If he didn't chose to do things this way, he'd be a journalist, but he's an artist and filmmaker, his subject matter is based in the real world and therefore falls into the "documentary" category. If he makes you hate his pov or love it, he has succeeded. I personally like his movies a lot, but I do not take it like "the truth", but a perspective. If I want the truth, it is up to me to find it and be clear-headed and media literate. What infuriates me is the media which is supposed to be objective journalism, is much more dangerous. Michael Moore might be expressing his opinion but he doesn't do anything to disguise the fact that he's manipulating the facts to make his point and sell it. The news, on the other hand does everything it can to manipulate the facts and dish it out to the masses as the the Truth. It makes me want to scream because Americans trust the news, but it is also full of propaganda and insidiously harmful because it distracts people from actually figuring something out. If you don't like Michael Moore's films, you needn't feel threated, just don't go see them. It is not posing as network news. But shame on Americans who gobble up the stuff spoon fed to them from the TV. In this age of information, it is up to each one of us to avoid being emotionally manipulated and find the facts on our own. I don't care what your political point of view is, just make sure that your emotional strings aren't being jerked around by something that is "posing" as truth.
Memories of Murder is a great flim but not quite as good as Oldboy, which might have something to do with it being based on a true story so they couldn't have stuff like the "Hammer of Mayhem" scene.
 Korean filmmakers tried to reproduce Oldboy recently with a movie called I'm a Cyborg But That's OK. It was very hit and miss. A tad too bizarre to really catch on, but quite creative with some fascinating visuals. Korea sort of hit a wall last year, pumping out mostly K-horror movies and romantic dramas (I loves me a good rom-dram but Koreans usually have a difficult time pulling them off). But if you're looking for movies to hold you over you can check out The Restless which gets a little silly at times, but has an epic "one badass takes on an entire army" sequence at the end that is visually stunning and worth sitting through the first two-thirds for. And I've never seen it mentioned by any TBers here (other than myself) but I can't recommend A Bittersweet Life enough. Great Korean action movie from a few years back.
 Hong Kong has been the clear winner lately. Lots of decent-to-excellent period stuff. I can't recommend The Warlords enough. And for straight out action, Invisible Target will make your nutsack whistle with awe. Finally, Protege was a great cop vs gangster action-drama.
 Anyway, I'm all over the place here as I'm doing a stream of consciousness as the movie titles come to me so I apologize for the gibberish.
They are the dumb fuckers who put Bush in office two times. Well if they are millionaires, then they are smart people, but the rest of them are stupid. Bush believes in "God" so he needs to be President....great logic there.
BR was haunting the Don Rummy TB
I understand and appreciate that Moore's palette is propaganda (nice wording, btw.) However, he claims his movies are "the truth," and even masquerades as a journalist (yes, he does -- check out his papers to visit Cuba.)
Epic yet personal yeah, that was a good un. I've also yet to watch the Mr Vengance films need to get round to that but M.O.M will give it a try certainly. Forbidden Siren I spotted the other day may have to watch that too.

As for these Moore "fan" flicks ? Okay that's obviously not the right word but you know what I mean. Nope, can't say I have but I hadn't even heard of most of em. I had heard of Michael Moore hates America though that DID make me laugh. But you hear that title and seriously ? unless you hate the guy why WOULD you watch it ? I don't hate him, sure he's made a couple of REAL stupid moves in his time but his films are entertaining enough, some are very good in fact.

Which brings me back to the why ? I know he can make pretty good films if those others weren't simply attack piece and stood on their own merits then surely more people would have heard of em and they would be far more popular ? Or better yet they could make their own piece about America & Iraq & Bush without reference to Moore and go for the republican NeoCon viewpoint and release it to the cinemas. Then it isn't automatically predicated on someone elses work.

However if your point is simply Moore's film may not be a fly on the wall Documentary and he may be putting some artfull spin into it my answer would be yeah he is and I can actually see that without recourse to another work but at the same time his central theme stands and you can chip away or even just ignore the peripheral trivia because Bush and Iraq have (let us keep it polite) HARDLY been a roaring success ?
You'd love MoM. Great movie. Very tight thriller.
 OK, so not a period piece guy. We can work around that.
 For the best in cops and robbers action, check out:
1. A Bittersweet Life
2. Sha Po Lang (Kill Zone in North America)
3. Fatal Move
4. Exiled
5. Protege
6. Invisible Target
7. Princess Aurora
8. Daisy
9. Public Enemy
10. The Big Swindle
If you watch some of these and don't like them, I sincerely apologize. My tastes are all over the place and I'll forgive moments of cheese in Asian cinema.
Sadly, the only titles I mentioned that are available on Netflix are Kill Zone, Exiled, Protege and Public Enemy. The rest you'll have to get through as online rental service specializing in Asian films or, and you didn't hear this from me, grab off the torrents.
Moore listed himself as a journalist -- why not "filmmaker"? Also, I can check it out, but I don't believe that's the first time he described himself as a journalist. Either way, he constantly insists that he is always telling the truth. Though I suppose that's a matter of semantics...
It's a crime that Oldboy got more attention than Sympathy For Mr. Vengeance because that was a movie that ripped out my throat and shoved a live rabbit through the gaping wound. I mean, what a powerhouse movie. Everything was done to perfection. And viscerally speaking, that ending may have packed a heavier punch than the one in Oldboy.
In fact, I think I need to watch it again tonight.
Give the film a chance. The filmmaker actually confronts his feelings about possibly misleading viewers with that title. Again, either way, why not watch a film like that to introduce balance into your life? or to support independent filmmakers?
And for the record, I found F9/11 and Sicko highly entertaining but realize that Moore's presentation is so skewed, dried paint would slip off his platform.
hands down best of Park's Vengence trilogy so far, but I must confess that I didn't watch the rest of Sympathy for Mr. Vengence, however I really liked lady Vengence.As for Tai Guk Gi, i have this collecting dust on my DVD shelf and never got around to watching it yet. My friend and former co worker (who is Korean)highly recommended this movie, but there was something about Organ donor's mention about the Assembly that piqued my curiosity first.Although the battle cenes were reminicent of saving Private Ryan's, it was Gu's honorable determination to find his dead comrades that had won me over.The last 10 minutes were a tearjerker and it gives that further insight on how war can be hell.
Hawaiian, as usual you have great suggestions,anyway gonna check out Shiri after all these years of sitting in my queue.it's good to see that the Asian film industry keps coming up with refreshing concepts instead of the bullshit remakemania that has plagued Hollywood.When you remake a indie classic like The Bad Lieutenant, you know the studios reek of desperation.How sad.
...sounds like clever guerrilla filmmaking to me. AND don't tell me that many a clever journalist didn't pose as something else to get their story. At any rate, I hear what you are saying but I think he used this description as a means to an end, not to pass his movie off as a journalistic endeavor. I am quite certain MM intends to shock and provoke people into thinking about things. Op Eds get written in the name of journalism to but are not pretending to be anything but opinion. I am getting a kick out of this talkback...here is one that starts out political and has disintegrated into some discussion about movies...hmmmmm.
Stone Said "he creates meaning where there is none by cutting things together."
Sure it lacks gunplay, but the last fight scenes and of course the "happy" ending won me over.(the final word uttered at the end was "Fuck".)I'm working on grabbing the empress and the warriors anything with Donnie Yen, and I'm there although I was slightly disapointed in Flashpoint, but I can stomach that than the Forbidden Kingdom.Arrgh!
Anyone ever check out projectcensored.org? One of their main points is that the mass media, including the New York Times, is owned by about 5 companies. They censor sensitive stories--making sure they don't get printed--by conveniently not reporting on them. One of the recent stories to be ignored was Iraq vets testifying that they were ORDERED to do torture and other nastiness, not--as has been reported--that is was "a few bad apples". One thing Moore does--and does very well--is to draw attention to problems that have been brushed aside and ignored.

 This is VERY important work. And for those of you who are having trouble calling it "documentary", why not use the word "editorial"?
I gotta say, when I first started getting into Korean cinema several years ago (which in turn really turned me onto Asian cinema beyond Hard Boiled, The Killer and Shaw Brothers type stuff), the movie that I first rented was Shiri because I had read about it being the highest grossing movie in Korea at the time. I was expecting a John Woo-type extravaganza but I found it to be sort of flaccid to be honest with you. It's a good thing I didn't let that or the equally-hyped (but let me down) Friend stop me from persisting to watch Asian movies. It was Mr. Vengeance that grabbed me next and I don't think I watched anything out of Hollywood for the next year.
 Tae Guk Gi is a great movie but it's a little uneven and highly improbable during some of the action set pieces. I'd recommend dusting it off this weekend with a cold Sam Adams or Sierra Nevada and pay your respects to all the men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice.
 The Assembly was great in that they didn't need to throw any more battle chaos into the third act. They relied totally on human drama.
That sashimi knife fight in CoV was awesome. You ever seen a guy lifted over a railing by his hair? God almighty that was unreal.
 Flash Point took me two months to watch. I'd watch 10 minutes at a time and get bored and turn it off. Then I finally got to the big brawl at the end and it was almost a payoff for the terrible-ness that proceeded it.
 Empress is generic but I liked it. There's actually a good movie in there somewhere.
but since I'll be starting a new job in a week (which requires me to take a urine test.) I don't wanna jinx myself heh, heh.Call me paranoid, but in the midst of this economy, I'm not taking any chances. XD
If you wasn't crazy about Shiri, I can imagine your take on So Close.My guilty pleasure is Princess Blade and Junk.Junk is basically Resivour Dogs meets Resident Evil.Cheesier than Velveeta but goes great with a Rum and Coke or a Cran/Vodka mishmash. BTW what did you think of Shinobi (heart under the Blade)or Black Scorpion, I have to finish watching those as well.
When was this American political golden age that liberals like Moore seem to believe existed? Are we talking about miserable recessionary 70s, or the violent, transitory '60s, the '50s or the wartime '40s? An anti-gay marriage closed-borders communist buster like JFK would have been an arch conservative in today's political environment. And how can you say that politics are more corrupt today than during the heyday of the Daly-era urban Democrat political machine? The whole argument relies on creating a media environment saturated with an enormous amount of lefty chicken-little propaganda of the type that Moore excels at.
But Shinobi is in my top ten of the decade. I think.
I watched it three times in one day. Once by myself, next with my wife and again with my brother.
Too leftist for my tastes. At least fair.org *tries* to be more centered.
Takashi Miike - overrated? (Audition - BRILLIANT; Big Bang Love - meh; Ichi the Killer - pointless). Kiyoshi Kurosaw - underrated? (Cure, Pulse, Charisma - wow, wow and wow.)(Though Seance dragged for me.)
Ziyi Zhang is one of those rarities: a woman who is more beautiful when she *doesn't* smile. What a babe.
I'll venture to say that Moore has heard tales of an America that made sacrifices when the leadership asked it of them.
Let's put the debate about FDR being a New Deal jerkwad and a portion of Americans embracing Jim Crow laws and tossing Japanese-Americans in camps on hold for a minute.
As I said in a TB a few weeks ago, in 1941 there were 3 million cars produced in the U.S. Between 1942 and 1945, only 161 cars rolled off assembly lines. American manufacturers got behind the war effort 100%. They sacrificed. And the public got behind it too. They worked insane hours and gave up food and resources so that our boys overseas could have the supplies they needed.
Let's flash forward to 2008. Americans aren't willing to give up a damn thing. I see Hummers on the road and I can't give you a description of the driver because all I see is a puss-filled asshole. And our president gave up golf? That's his biggest sacrifice?
 There's not much I can do to help the war effort, but I do what I can which unfortunately is limited to putting together monthly CARE packages for some of my co-workers sons who are serving over there. I ensure they have a constant supply of movies, which hopefully takes their mind off the crap going on around them.
How are you quantifying the word "hateful"? Because I'm thinking I could get a series of blowjobs just by referring you to this page: http://tinyurl.com/5fnuvw ...unless the offer was expressly for anchorite. ;)
May 15, 2008, 3:37 p.m. CST
by Damien Chowder
Showing that the subtlety of the Asian Horror movies are 99.9% of the time just lost on Hollywood.

You outline the plot of Audition and your average hollywood exec would immediately think Saw 15 meets a blind date movie. Yet unlike the tedious, tedious Torture porn which is still infesting the screens with ever more elaborate gore and convoluted and ridiculous torture and death, Audition never stoops to this juvenile level.

It's chilling not, Hmmm... I wonder how this next poor schlub will die ? It builds and builds the unease and makes damn sure we feel something about the characters before it goes for the jugular. But it's not an easy watch. It doesn't distance you with any overt fantasy overtones or outragous plot twists.

Don't get me wrong though, I have no problem with violence or in your face visuals and horror but it's astounding how quickly Hollywood Torture porn became indulgent gore for gore's sake with a fetishistic De Sade like glee in finding ever more Torture styles and deaths that replaced any actuall imagination in the films themself.

Yeah I'll need to get back to watchin some serious Asian cinema again and ir sounds like there are some great suggestions on here I'm gonna go for.

P.S. Nightwatch and Daywatch were great too of course. It don't need to be Asian to be imaginative, different an fresh.
--and I don't think it will take me long to verify many of the comments on that site -- are you going to be using the same "hateful" yardstick that you might use on, say, Rush?
about torture porn. There's a big difference between Audition -- where I felt for the main characters, even the girl -- and Hostel -- where I so despised the main characters that I WANTED them to die. Sadly, even that wasn't worth fast-forwarding to.
http://tinyurl.com/6fw7eu. And that's just the first quote from that podunk website with uncited quotes (incidentally, several of the quotes were cited, just not detailed.)
I have followed the liberal/conservative war for some time. Not without undue pride in my fellow liberals of course. Conservatives such as the ones setting forth their closed minded/status-quo maintaining arguments above have always been quick to insult/berate those individuals who wish to stand up and point out just how rife with graft and corruption the entire Republican party in America is. They simply can't stomach that Republicans/conservatives are now, and have been for quite some time, a detriment to America as we know it. They hate what America should truly be: a democracy where elections are not rigged/corrupted, and where the peoples' and the United Nation's protestations aren't ignored in order to commit to an all-out war in the Middle East in the name of globalization, tyranny and oil-profiteering. As an educated liberal with a Bachelor's Degree in History, I am smart enough and open-minded enough to concede to staunch, fanatical Republicans that Michael Moore's films contain some propaganda. Though to outright concede the notion that his films can actually make a moron like George W. Bush or other corrupt Republican presidents/politicians look any "worse" than they already do is laughable. Moore and company are just profiting off of the ability to spread the word about said Republican/conservative politicians any way that they know how. Republicans like the ones above lay claim to the fact that Moore and other filmmakers like him utilize shady editing techniques and resort to underhanded lies in order to convey their point to the entire world. What exactly does Fox-News resort to? What did President George W. Bush and the entire Republican party resort to within the last eight years? Were they at any point in time completely frank and honest with the American people? The answer to this question is an emphatic no. Wire-tapping, non-existent weapons of mass destruction, foreknowledge of the 9-11 attacks that was disregarded (giving credence to the "conspiracy theory" that America, and more specifically, the Bush administration had a direct hand in executing said attacks), price gouging in order to maintain the multi-billion dollar producing oil corporations, and many other corrupt practices have been among the many acts conducted by the Republican party just within the last eight years that have succeeded in further desecrating the Republican partys' already useless/pathetic reputation. The aforementioned Republican talkback participants also allege that Democrats/liberals resort to nothing but insults in order to make their points. Last I checked, we don't have a stranglehold over a.m. radio. We don't have a stranglehold over the poorly titled "liberal media" that brings the American public such atrociously corrupt and one-sided garbage like "The O'Reilly Factor," "Hannity and Colmes," and Fox-News in general. But we did have a President in power for eight years by the name of William Jefferson Clinton whose one great vice was… gasp… shock… ADULTERY. And his greatest accomplishments were… gasp… shock… removing our great nation from debt and helping the economy thrive. And yet, despite not having taken the country to war, and despite not having lied to the entire country and betraying the entire country, Clinton was the one who was almost impeached for something as infinitesimal in regards to political importance as ADULTERY. Why?! Because Republicans have had a stranglehold over the political landscape in America for far too long. They have dabbled in all manner of corrupt ventures, ranging from shady economic policies to corrupt foreign and domestic policies. They have always had a hand in utilizing smear campaigns to bring the Democratic party down whenever they had the chance to do so. So Michael Moore twists the truth to a small extent. Let me, as one amongst many civil liberals, apologize on his behalf. Last I checked, we do also live in this great nation of America which eats, breathes, and sleeps off of the capitalist system which allows us to function the way we do on a daily basis, economically speaking of course. And Moore's half-truths, so to speak, are still more on point and accurate than anything I have had the misfortune of reading or watching presented by the slanted, right-wing media or Westernized literature that is meant to corrupt educated individuals the world over. In conclusion, if staunch, fanatical, right-wing, Fox-News viewing Republicans want a civil liberal who doesn't need to resort to half-truths and vulgarity to convey a valid point or to counter-attack their foundation-less arguments, we shall gladly come out in spades to do so. Read the above argument. Nothing I say can be contested on any level without resorting to some form of closed-minded, right-wing influenced, garbage. Please do bring it on. I'm almost begging every one of you- bandwagon Republicans who voted Bush and company into office for the last eight years and then in the proverbial 11th hour finally conceded that he was the worse presidential choice this country has ever resorted to in the history of our great nation- to come at me and my kind with everything you've got. Because at days end, the Republican party's days are numbered. It's a simple countdown until November and the turning point in which Democrats take the Oval Office back.
May 15, 2008, 8:18 p.m. CST
by Premiere Warlord Bush
You can stick to the truth and be as journalistic and as unbiased as possible, but you will inevitably bore most of the mainstream audience; therefore not getting your message to as many people. Or you could go the Michael Moore route and twist your information to be as entertaining and inflammatory as possible and get a lot more attention while reaching more people with some form of your message. It's unfortunate that people aren't more entertained by the truth, but that's just the way things are. That's why bullshit "documentaries" like Ben Stein's EXPELLED get TV spots and legitimate journalism like NO END IN SIGHT get relegated to film festivals.
May 16, 2008, 2:07 a.m. CST
by Darth_Inedible
And we wanted Clinton's hide for all the shit that he had done and walked away scot free from. All the stuff that if Bush ever did you'd be screaming your lungs bloody.. From burning children at Waco to selling ICBM tech out to China for campaign cash to blowing Somalia and the idiotic non-UN approved bombings of Bosnia and Afghanistan. It was foolish to try to impeach him on perjury over sex harassment, but that strategy had worked pretty well for the Dems with Packwood, Thomas and Bork. But then again Packwood Thomas and Bork weren't slick like Slick. What will happen when Obama becomes Prez is the same thing that happened when Clinton became Prez. The media will fall asleep and the Chicken Littles will go back into hibernation. Obama could even do something stupid like botch a Posse Comitatus-bending assault on a religious compound killing 74 people and the media would carry the Administration's water 100% and label anyone who dissents an "Obama hater". Anyway I know your thinking 'bombing bosnia and afghanistan, what's that compared to Iraq?', to which I'd reply could 9/11(and thus Iraq) even have happened less than one year after Clinton left office if he had been more on the ball during his term?
I have followed the liberal/conservative war for some time. Liberals such as the ones setting forth their closed minded/status-quo maintaining arguments above have always been quick to insult/berate those individuals who wish to stand up and point out just how rife with graft and corruption the entire Democratic party in America is. They simply can't stomach that Democrats/liberals are now, and have been for quite some time, a detriment to America as we know it.
How terribly unbalanced of me. I apologize.
I'm not sure I entirely get your post -- are you exonerating Moore but castigating Stein for using similar methods?
It's nice to see so many people give a shit anymore about what the problems are. But, I'd bet the only thing keeping the whole ball of wax together right now is great television and movies, and a measure of decency among the populace.
The game of the powerful and rich playing the middle class and poor for suckers is rapidly coming to a close. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, to maintain the status quo would take ignorance or stupidity on a galactic scale on the part of middle class America. Our country is doing poorly because it was poorly managed in the past decade (to say the least)...I think Moore's a bit of a ham (no pun intended...aw, fuck it, pun definitely intended)...but he tells the mostly truth.
The real sticking point for Conservatives is that we've got a guy on the Liberal side who will play the same semantic and stupid fuck conjecture games as their patron saint of limp-dick deafness...Rush Limbaugh.
Hey, cons, wasn't that great how Limbaugh tried to affect the election in Mississippi? How he got all those Republicrats to vote for Hillary? And wasn't it great when those thousands of dumb fucks weren't able to vote in the general election, and roughly the same number of numbnut fuckheads lost them a CRUCIAL seat? HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA!!!
Rush should have taken the hint when the gods struck him with throat cancer and deafness. When you're struck deaf and mute for spewing hate and garbage, you should probably get the point...hopefully now, his bumbling keystone kops politicking is over, after costing the Republicrats some elections...
2%-ers better watch the fuck out...your taxes are going up...and middle class, all you have to do is take back our country. Hell, vote, contest votes when it seems fishy, get involved. And let's not let the bastards get us down. :)
Can't wait to see The Dark Knight....Farenheight 9/12? Meh.
Damn you to hell!
WAAAAAAHHHH!!!!! Here! Here is new crapaganda circle jerk! Now GIVE MONEY! NOW GIVE CAKE!
someone as they explain why they think MM hates America... http://tinyurl.com/5srxok. I'm not a shill for the guy; all I'm saying is "be open-minded."
I have no delusions that you'll watch the film (or Michael & Me, or Fahrenhype 9/11). I've yet to meet a liberal who will even *consider* watching an opposing viewpoint. The furthest I've ever gotten was a half-hearted "yeah, maybe, one of these days."