text:
IRC log of tagmem on 2003-07-21
Timestamps are in UTC.
19:55:46 [RRSAgent]
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19:56:48 [timbl234]
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20:04:49 [Norm]
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20:06:08 [TimBL-YVR]
20:06:13 [TimBL-YVR]
TimBL-YVR has changed the topic to:
20:12:21 [TimBL-YVR]
Agenda: 13:00 Start: setup time for those with windows
20:12:23 [TimBL-YVR]
13:10: Start for those with Linux
20:12:24 [TimBL-YVR]
13:14 Start for those with Macs
20:12:26 [TimBL-YVR]
13:15 Item one.
20:12:55 [TBray]
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20:13:04 [DanC_jam]
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20:14:47 [Norm]
20:16:00 [IanYVR]
Resolved to thank BEA, Schemasoft, Antarctica!
20:16:17 [IanYVR]
Roll call: SW (Chair), PC, DO, TBL, NW, DC, TB, IJ (Scribe)
20:16:25 [IanYVR]
Expecting: CL, RF
20:16:36 [IanYVR]
Previous meeting 14 July
20:16:41 [IanYVR]
20:17:13 [IanYVR]
Resolved: Accept meeting of 14 July
20:17:34 [IanYVR]
20:18:14 [IanYVR]
SW: Several big themes: (1) Arch Doc to last call? (2) RDDL (namespaceDocument-8) (3)Close findings
20:18:42 [IanYVR]
[Review of agenda]
20:24:00 [IanYVR]
Next meeting?
20:24:51 [IanYVR]
28 July.
20:24:54 [IanYVR]
20:24:57 [IanYVR]
November ftf?
20:25:16 [IanYVR]
PC: The AB is not meeting on Sunday in Japan.
20:26:06 [IanYVR]
Proposal to move TAG ftf meeting - 15, 16 Nov
20:26:20 [IanYVR]
Proposal: 20, 21 Nov
20:26:24 [IanYVR]
TBL: Team day is 20 Nov
20:29:22 [DanC_jam]
so that's RESOLVED (15/16Nov) contingent on hearing from Chris, Roy.
20:30:57 [IanYVR]
20:32:18 [IanYVR]
20:32:46 [IanYVR]
TBray: Should XSLT that transforms RDDL to RDF be included in an appendix of RDDL Note? Should we say anything about standing of that RDF?
20:34:00 [TBray]
20:34:41 [DaveO]
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20:37:39 [IanYVR]
TBray: I have not yet created modular DTD.
20:38:05 [IanYVR]
SW: There's an issue about whether we should use XLink or not (per our other discussions about linking).
20:38:41 [IanYVR]
TBray: Original version of RDDL used XLink, but that seemed like a bad use of markup. There are well-known distinguished semantics in RDDL that would be stretching XLink semantics.
20:38:57 [IanYVR]
TBray: Also, this is the smallest possible solution, which I thought would be the best.
20:39:03 [IanYVR]
Action PC 2003/04/07: Prepare finding to answer this issue, pointing to the RDDL Note. See comments from Paul regarding TB theses.
20:39:28 [IanYVR]
20:39:31 [IanYVR]
[Comments from PC]
20:40:19 [IanYVR]
TBray: My recollection is that the finding was going to (1) outline how we got here (2) say that it's a good idea to have a namespace doc and (3) RDDL is a candidate.
20:40:46 [IanYVR]
20:40:59 [Stuart]
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20:41:20 [IanYVR]
PC: There was a sticky point in the original theses about the use of URNs.
20:41:56 [IanYVR]
PC: There is no record of the TAG agreeing with all of the theses.
20:42:02 [IanYVR]
DC: We don't have to agree with all of them.
20:42:21 [IanYVR]
TBray: I think there was broad consensus about most of them except the last couple, #5, and #6.
20:42:45 [IanYVR]
TBray: I propose that we:
20:42:58 [IanYVR]
1) With the blessing of the TAG, revise the Note to provide a more obvious example.
20:43:06 [IanYVR]
2) Dig up XSLT-to-RDF transform and put in appendix.
20:43:29 [IanYVR]
3) PC writes a finding that says namespace docs can be useful and here's a Note that defines a format specific to this application.
20:43:57 [IanYVR]
TBray: I don't think we need to address all of the theses for us to finish this issue.
20:44:10 [DanC_jam]
ack danc
20:44:10 [Zakim]
DanC_jam, you wanted to test the queue and to play thru some scenairos: RDFS, XHTML, some namespace 'defined' with an XML Schema, some WSDL example
20:44:22 [IanYVR]
DC: I'd like to (1) See three examples of RDDL since it has costs and benefits and (2) I'd like the finding to say that xml schema is another opportunity.
20:44:32 [IanYVR]
20:44:49 [IanYVR]
DC: I'd like examples with RDFS, XHTML, XML Schema, WSDL.
20:45:54 [IanYVR]
TBray: I think that it would be useful to put a RDDL document at the end of an RDFS namespace; for improved understanding of RDF Schema terms.
20:46:48 [IanYVR]
DC: Suppose we have
as a namespace name.
20:46:57 [IanYVR]
DC: What would my browser show?
20:47:23 [IanYVR]
DC: How do I find RDF triple for subClassOf?
20:47:59 [IanYVR]
TBray: RDDL would point to a directory....
20:48:20 [IanYVR]
[DC draws RDDL document that links to another document with RDF assertions associated with subClassOf]
20:49:09 [IanYVR]
DC: Will the files (.rddl and .rdf) have the same names? I want to use content negotiation.
20:50:10 [IanYVR]
TBray: I think that in some cases you would want to use content negotiation (especially RDF case).
20:50:34 [IanYVR]
[Examine case where file names are different]
20:50:38 [IanYVR]
[I.e., conneg not used]
20:50:53 [IanYVR]
[Chris joins meeting]
20:51:53 [IanYVR]
TBray: So in this example, use nature"= "...rdf-syntax" and purpose = "formalDescription"
20:52:39 [IanYVR]
TBray: You could have another document in .n3, with nature="n3" and purpose="formalDescription"
20:52:47 [IanYVR]
DC: What is content type of .rddl document?
20:53:34 [IanYVR]
TBray: application/rddl+xml or application/xhtml+xml
20:54:03 [IanYVR]
TBray: Most (modern) browsers will handle application/xhtml+xml
20:54:11 [IanYVR]
DC: I get a "save as dialog".
20:54:19 [IanYVR]
TBray: Then you might have to serve as text/html...
20:54:44 [IanYVR]
DC: If we use "text/html" we have to put the HTML WG in the critical path and they'll say no.
20:56:06 [IanYVR]
[See xhtml 1.0 for guidelines on usage of text/html and application/xhtml+xml]
20:56:29 [IanYVR]
DC: I don't have any problem with rddl+xml.
20:57:29 [IanYVR]
DC: I think the RDDL spec needs at least a finding on content type.
20:57:39 [IanYVR]
20:59:04 [IanYVR]
TBray: The RDDL drafts come with a list of canonical natures and purposes
21:00:09 [IanYVR]
TBL: You should be able to get machine readable data without redirection (e.g., through conneg, by embedding RDF in RDDL, or by using RDF in place of RDDL).
21:00:19 [IanYVR]
DO: Another solution - put metadata in the URI...
21:00:40 [Norm]
21:01:44 [IanYVR]
TBray: TBL can put RDF at end of namespace URI if he wants. I would argue with TBL but we have no business forbidding that.
21:02:13 [IanYVR]
NW: What is compelling reason for having RDF right off the bat?
21:02:23 [IanYVR]
TBL: If you can get data in time t, why take it in time t2?
21:02:27 [IanYVR]
DC: It works todya.
21:03:47 [IanYVR]
TBray: TBL's applications are untypical, in my opinion. The most common uses of namespaces is to compare namespace URIs as strings.
21:04:28 [IanYVR]
TBL: It is a core design item of the sem web to be able to get info with only one link, not an indirection.
21:04:41 [IanYVR]
TBray: In my opinion, benefits of indirection are so high you'll end up doing this anyway.
21:06:02 [IanYVR]
PC: Why write a finding if there's no preferred format?
21:06:23 [Norm]
21:06:23 [IanYVR]
TBL: It's good to write a finding that says "It's good to put info at the end of a namespace URI."
21:07:39 [IanYVR]
CL: I don't see the point of a finding that doesn't make any recommendation about a format. Machines have no guarantee of what they'll finding.
21:07:57 [IanYVR]
DC: I think it's good to say "Here are some issues, they are approached different ways with different formats."
21:07:59 [Chris]
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21:08:21 [IanYVR]
NW: I have found over last year that I would really like an indirection, and content negotiation is inadequate.
21:09:02 [IanYVR]
NW: It's a chicken and egg problem. APIs won't give indirection if there's no format out their they can know about.
21:09:21 [IanYVR]
NW: "May" use RDDL is good enough for me in a finding.
21:09:40 [IanYVR]
21:11:08 [IanYVR]
Straw poll: (1) Finding says that namespace docs are useful, enumerates some issues, points to RDDL. (2) RDDL Note published.
21:11:54 [IanYVR]
TBray: And in the finding, say that RDF has been useful for RDF applications.
21:12:23 [IanYVR]
Comfortable with that: NW, DC, TBL, CL, TB
21:12:39 [IanYVR]
PC: I want the finding to say that whatever is there should be human readable. We don't seem to be discussing that particular point.
21:12:58 [IanYVR]
q+ TBL, DC
21:13:24 [IanYVR]
TBL: I think that we agree that it's useful to have something human readable. But in a sem web application, the machine readable information is primary.
21:13:25 [DaveO]
q+ DaveO
21:13:46 [IanYVR]
TBL: There are other ways to make the data human readable (e.g., through a style sheet). Don't say "human readable as opposed to machine readable".
21:13:49 [IanYVR]
ack TBL
21:13:53 [IanYVR]
q- DC
21:14:20 [IanYVR]
TBray: I think we can say that there are substantial advantages to human-readability; sem web applications can, for reasons of performance, do other things.
21:14:34 [IanYVR]
ack DanC_jam
21:14:34 [Zakim]
DanC_jam, you wanted to ask if folks find
21:15:31 [IanYVR]
[Grumbling about level of human-readability of
21:15:52 [IanYVR]
DC: If there are serious concerns about this being-human readable, I claim that "human-readable" not meaningful as a temr.
21:15:55 [DanC_jam]
21:15:55 [IanYVR]
21:15:58 [IanYVR]
ack DaveO
21:15:59 [DanC_jam]
21:16:42 [IanYVR]
DO: My recollection is the same as Paul's. The second that the Sem Web folks put machine-readable docs that aren't human-readable, the Web Services folks are likely to as well.
21:17:18 [IanYVR]
DO: I'd like the finding to say "SHOULD be human-readable" and MAY for RDDL.
21:18:13 [Stuart]
21:18:38 [IanYVR]
DC: My point is that an RDF document can be human-readable when displayed with style sheets.
21:19:07 [IanYVR]
PC: I don't think there's a way to make an XML Schema human readable in a way that meets my test.
21:19:08 [IanYVR]
21:19:17 [IanYVR]
CL: What's the test for human-readable?
21:19:21 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ to suggest a finding part saying taht machine-readable files can be made (more) human readable using various techniques.
21:19:48 [IanYVR]
PC: In many cases, a title at the top, "This doc defines the meanign of the namespace FOO. How it's used...what additional resources are available...purpose of namespace"
21:20:07 [IanYVR]
PC: Also include why someone might want to use the additional resources.
21:20:17 [TBray]
21:20:53 [IanYVR]
NW: Human readable is important, but not the only important thing; indirection also important.
21:21:07 [Stuart]
ack timbl
21:21:07 [Zakim]
TimBL-YVR, you wanted to suggest a finding part saying taht machine-readable files can be made (more) human readable using various techniques.
21:21:36 [IanYVR]
TBL: I propose that we say that human readability is a good idea. When you are publishing something that is machine-readable, here are some techniques - use style sheets, embed human-readable information.
21:21:58 [Stuart]
ack tbray
21:22:13 [DanC_jam]
hmm... the RSS case is an interesting case in point.
21:22:29 [IanYVR]
TBray: I would be ok with a compromise: (1) You should achieve human-readability (2) RDDL is an option.
21:22:56 [IanYVR]
TBray: And here are some techniques for making information human readable.
21:24:16 [IanYVR]
PC: I'd rather point out conflict in a finding than hide it.
21:24:31 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ to posose hat rather than conflict, tis be considered as a richness.
21:24:38 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ DO
21:24:43 [DaveO]
21:24:45 [DaveO]
21:25:08 [ndw]
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21:25:15 [IanYVR]
PC: I don't want to "hide behind a SHOULD"
21:25:36 [Chris]
should means 'must unless you have an excuse'
21:25:48 [IanYVR]
PC: I think the TAG needs to give clear reasons for why one wouldn't put something human-readable at end of namespace URI.
21:26:52 [IanYVR]
ack TimBL-YVR
21:26:52 [Zakim]
TimBL-YVR, you wanted to posose hat rather than conflict, tis be considered as a richness.
21:27:19 [IanYVR]
TBL: There is a spectrum of applications from very human-readable to very machine-readable.
21:27:38 [DaveO]
q- DO
21:27:51 [DaveO]
21:28:10 [IanYVR]
PC: I think it would be useful to tell the community about the advantages of indirection.
21:29:18 [IanYVR]
PC: The finding should help new WGs avoid pitfalls by conveying benefits of human-readable, and indirection.
21:29:49 [DaveO]
Is this "Namespace document Best Practices?"
21:30:02 [IanYVR]
PC: If you have multiple schemas for the same thing, RDDL gives you advantages.
21:30:38 [IanYVR]
PC: If you only have one format and it's absolutely a characteristic of the application that performance is important, ok to use single format, but cost to losing human-readability and indirection.
21:31:00 [IanYVR]
PC: I want to avoid creating subgroups on the Web.
21:31:11 [TBray]
21:31:15 [TBray]
21:33:13 [DaveO]
21:33:18 [IanYVR]
ack DanC_jam
21:34:00 [IanYVR]
DC: I have an outline for a finding...
21:35:05 [DanC_jam]
21:36:12 [IanYVR]
ack DaveO
21:36:44 [IanYVR]
DO: I'm hearing PC argue for best practices on how to use namespace names. What kind of apps should dereference them.
21:38:41 [IanYVR]
[TB to summarize points for PC's finding]
21:38:50 [TBray]
Finding should say:
21:38:56 [TBray]
1. human-readability good
21:39:07 [TBray]
2. indirection good
21:39:20 [IanYVR]
3. Namespace doc good
21:39:44 [IanYVR]
PC: Usage scenario v. design scenario.
21:39:59 [TBray]
4. some risk in betting on some format being the One & Only Format
21:40:04 [IanYVR]
PC: There are advantages of indirectoin to have multiple different resources for human wnating to use the namespace.
21:40:42 [TimBL-YVR]
Point out the ability of RDDL to carry indirection.
21:40:59 [TimBL-YVR]
Point out the ability of RDF to contain arbitrary eg dublin core metadata.
21:41:29 [IanYVR]
TBL: Useful to have an example using RDDL and an example using RDF?
21:42:07 [IanYVR]
PC: I think the finding will give some examples of namespace docs.
21:42:30 [IanYVR]
TBray: For the Note, I've agreed to put some examples in, to include xslt script in appendix.
21:42:37 [IanYVR]
TBray: And say a few words on content type.
21:42:54 [IanYVR]
NW: You need to inline natures and purposes (i.e., put the list in the spec)
21:43:15 [IanYVR]
DC: Put some examples showing their usage.
21:43:31 [IanYVR]
NW: One of the natures should be "RDDL Document" (forward versioning)
21:43:48 [IanYVR]
21:43:56 [IanYVR]
q- TBray
21:45:02 [IanYVR]
PC: I think that reasons for publishing Note have slipped by.
21:45:12 [IanYVR]
PC: There might be other technical issues, we might want to register content type.
21:45:28 [IanYVR]
TBray: I think if we publish Note we've done our job.
21:45:51 [IanYVR]
PC: We should also send email to the AC explaining our position.
21:46:24 [TimBL-YVR]
21:46:26 [IanYVR]
IJ: I heard from AC meeting "Publish as Note first, then we'll figure out what to do."
21:47:26 [DanC_jam]
(did the minutes include tbray's RDDL todo? at the risk of redundancy: A: examples. B: XHTML DTD minutiae C: XSLT to convert to RDF, D: media type)
21:47:26 [IanYVR]
Action items for TB (RDDL Note) and PC (issue 8 finding) continued.
21:47:47 [Chris]
propose that we hold the 15:00 to 15:30 break now, ie 14:45 to 15:00
21:47:59 [Chris]
thus gaining 30 minutes for the next slot
21:48:14 [IanYVR]
DC: I'm happy to contribute text to PC's finding on content negotiation.
21:48:26 [IanYVR]
22:12:30 [Chris]
22:13:00 [TimBL-YVR]
22:13:06 [IanYVR]
Findings in progress
22:13:07 [TimBL-YVR]
metadata in URI
22:13:19 [IanYVR]
Draft finding from SW:
22:13:31 [IanYVR]
SW: Is "don't peek inside" enough advice?
22:13:44 [TBray]
22:13:51 [IanYVR]
SW: Questions about what one can infer from different pieces of a URI (e.g., resource nature from scheme registration)
22:15:45 [IanYVR]
SW: A number of perspectives: origin server (assignment authority) v. infrastructure (e.g., caches, libwww), v. applications
22:16:41 [Chris]
22:16:45 [DanC_jam]
ack danc
22:16:45 [Zakim]
DanC_jam, you wanted to suggest thanking for bray and cotton for taking their respective actions and break.
22:16:54 [IanYVR]
ack TBray
22:17:11 [IanYVR]
TBray: I think happy medium between minimal approach (DC) and SW's current finding.
22:17:58 [IanYVR]
[Roy joins meeting]
22:18:42 [IanYVR]
1) When you are processing a URI, there are normative specs (starting with [URI], then scheme specs); it's fine to peek inside URIs and interpret per normative specs.
22:19:01 [IanYVR]
2) Beyond that it's inappropriate to make other assumptions by peeking in URI UNLESS you have private agreements.
22:19:14 [IanYVR]
(i.e., rules published by the URI authority)
22:19:17 [DaveO]
22:20:12 [TBray]
22:20:16 [IanYVR]
ack DaveO
22:20:39 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ to ask for a summary of any substantial points made on the thread not compatible with the finding as is.
22:20:53 [IanYVR]
DO: I think that we need to describe when it's ok to peek inside a URI. And when it's ok to write a spec that says it's ok to peek inside a URI.
22:21:07 [IanYVR]
DO: I had an action item to talk to WSDL folks about why they want to peek inside their URIs.
22:21:30 [IanYVR]
DO: They have created a number of symbol spaces. Names are not unique across symbol spaces. They want to use the symbol space to differentiate items.
22:21:36 [IanYVR]
DO: (Issue 37)
22:21:55 [IanYVR]
DO: They want to have metadata in a well-defined format so that software can have predictability for how to process URIs in WSDL docs.
22:22:07 [IanYVR]
DO: So the WSDL spec would be a normative spec for how to interpret the URIs in WSDL docs.
22:22:24 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ to aska determining question of DO as to whther a non-WSDL-sware agent could be able to determine what is denote dby one of these URIs in the WSDL URIs.
22:22:29 [IanYVR]
DO: I think that there is at least one group that believes that an example of a "normative" spec is the WSDL spec.
22:22:35 [IanYVR]
q+ Stuart
22:22:37 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ Stewart
22:22:51 [DanC_jam]
ack danc
22:22:51 [Zakim]
DanC_jam, you wanted to ask how what bray is saying is different from what's written and to ask for an example of one of these WSDL non-opaque URIs
22:22:52 [IanYVR]
ack DanC_jam
22:22:54 [TimBL-YVR]
22:23:10 [IanYVR]
DC to TB: How is what you said different from SW's draft finding?
22:23:54 [IanYVR]
TBray: I think draft finding is too long, but I'm prepared to accept the assertion that SW's finding says what I mean.
22:24:17 [IanYVR]
TBray: Do people agree that it's ok for the WSDL folks to say how to interpret their URIs?
22:24:48 [DanC_jam]
somebody help me find the examples DO is talking about from
22:24:56 [TBray]
q+ Stuart
22:25:06 [TBray]
ack TBray
22:25:12 [TBray]
ack TimBL-YVR
22:25:12 [Zakim]
TimBL-YVR, you wanted to ask for a summary of any substantial points made on the thread not compatible with the finding as is. and to aska determining question of DO as to whther a
22:25:15 [Zakim]
... non-WSDL-sware agent could be able to determine what is denote dby one of these URIs in the WSDL URIs.
22:25:17 [IanYVR]
TBL: I have a criterion for this: suppose that someone has not come across the WSDL spec. Given a URI that was constructed according to the WSDL rules, can someone with such a URI (alone) determine that it's a WSDL URI?
22:26:12 [IanYVR]
TBL: E.g., do they get back a description (e.g., in a representation) of how to use the URI?
22:26:12 [DanC_jam]
ah... summary
22:27:16 [IanYVR]
DO: Part of issue 37 is to use the namespace name and frag id syntax that uses symbol space metadata. "Clever" use of frag ids.
22:27:39 [IanYVR]
DO: The domain authority can do what they want when they construct the URI. Then, the restrictions about the frag id kick in.
22:27:59 [TimBL-YVR]
DO: They plan to use a namesapce name with has a particular fradid syntax.
22:27:59 [TBray]
q+ to suggest that Section 1 of Stuart's draft could stand alone and solve the problem
22:28:14 [IanYVR]
ack Stuart
22:28:21 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ to say that if you want a funny fragid syntax you need a new mime type
22:29:40 [DanC_jam]
new summary 19Jun
22:30:01 [DanC_jam]
22:30:03 [DanC_jam]
The sample URI is
22:30:03 [DanC_jam]
22:30:03 [DanC_jam]
22:30:04 [DanC_jam]
22:30:06 [ndw]
ndw has joined #tagmem
22:30:37 [DanC_jam]
ack tbray
22:30:37 [Zakim]
TBray, you wanted to suggest that Section 1 of Stuart's draft could stand alone and solve the problem
22:30:44 [IanYVR]
TB Proposal: Section 1 of Stuart's draft could stand alone and solve the problem
22:31:34 [Chris]
q+ ndw
22:31:40 [DanC_jam]
I think I agree with bray that replacing the finding by its 1st section would be forward progress
22:31:53 [IanYVR]
NW: You can't say squat about meaning of frag ids until you get the representation with the proper content type.
22:32:29 [IanYVR]
TBL: I'm fine to talk about an imaginary document. But if you do retrieve it, you need to register a new content type or a frag id syntax.
22:32:45 [DanC_jam]
ack timbl
22:32:45 [Zakim]
TimBL-YVR, you wanted to say that if you want a funny fragid syntax you need a new mime type
22:32:46 [IanYVR]
DO: WSDL WG wants to register a new content type.
22:32:48 [Stuart]
re: specs defining patterns for using structure in URI assignments to name abstract things, how do you establish a chain to establish authority to make such an assignment? 2396 delegates assignment authority to URI schemes which in turn delegate onwards ultimately to some spec. or person or organisation. Such an authority could then explicitly state that they do infact make assignments according to the spec'd. pattern.
22:33:27 [DaveO]
22:33:29 [IanYVR]
DC: I second TB's proposal.
22:33:42 [IanYVR]
SW: There was feedback on the list that the parts after section 1 were useful.
22:34:02 [TimBL-YVR]
22:34:10 [IanYVR]
TBray: In an ideal world, I would leave section 1 and provide a bunch of examples.
22:34:11 [DanC_jam]
ack ndw
22:34:12 [IanYVR]
ack ndw
22:34:15 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ for examples
22:34:16 [IanYVR]
ack DaveO
22:34:44 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ to examples
22:34:55 [TimBL-YVR]
q- for examples
22:35:06 [IanYVR]
DO: I agree with section 1 with examples, including an example for what format spec designers can do. Also, what format spec designers should do about path components.
22:35:15 [IanYVR]
NW: I.e., using "/" instead of "#".
22:35:33 [IanYVR]
DC: I'm happy with DO's proposal.
22:36:52 [TBray]
22:36:57 [Stuart]
q+ Chris
22:37:19 [IanYVR]
RF: If a scheme does not provide for authoritative metadata, then it is normal to use the URI to get more information about what you might get back.
22:37:26 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ to ask Stuart to add a a mention that fragid needs mime type in 3.4
22:37:30 [IanYVR]
CL: If this is about HTTP only, we should say that.
22:37:42 [IanYVR]
CL: If about more schemes, we need to talk about RF's issue.
22:38:02 [IanYVR]
TBray: I think that the text as written is correct since it says that you can do what the spec authorizes you to do.
22:38:11 [DaveO]
22:38:40 [IanYVR]
TBray: So, for FTP, you can use path components for directory navigation.
22:38:41 [DanC_jam]
tim, why not consider ftp?
22:39:00 [DanC_jam]
ftp is how a significant part of the web is written
22:39:14 [IanYVR]
RF: I don't think we should make the finding specific to a URI scheme. Give an example of a relative normative spec that is providing policies for looking within the URI.
22:39:28 [IanYVR]
TBray: HTTP is distinguished in that other than the "/" there is no info you can use.
22:39:29 [Stuart]
22:39:43 [IanYVR]
ack TimBL-YVR
22:39:43 [Zakim]
TimBL-YVR, you wanted to examples and to ask Stuart to add a a mention that fragid needs mime type in 3.4
22:39:43 [DanC_jam]
ack TimBL-YVR
22:39:44 [TimBL-YVR]
ack tim
22:39:57 [TBray]
ack TBray
22:40:16 [Chris]
ack chris
22:40:31 [Roy]
Roy has joined #tagmem
22:41:21 [IanYVR]
RF: Section 1.1, part one - We need an example.
22:42:25 [IanYVR]
TBL: 2.2 and ff should be under 3 (stuff about HTTP)
22:42:52 [IanYVR]
TBL: "And if it's HTTP...."
22:43:06 [IanYVR]
SW: I'd prefer to not go into a particular scheme.
22:43:38 [IanYVR]
SW: For me, section 2 was about client perspective and section 3 was from perspective of assignment authority.
22:43:54 [IanYVR]
SW: I could merge the two and do each component from both perspectivies.
22:44:28 [IanYVR]
TBL: You need to say that the authority can never get to a server manager unless you have gone through a spec.
22:44:48 [IanYVR]
TBL: And you need to use registration mechanisms (e.g., for new frag id semantics).
22:44:55 [DaveO]
22:45:14 [IanYVR]
ack DaveO
22:45:52 [Chris]
q+ to worry about implying that inferring anything from scheme is also bad, which it isn't
22:45:58 [IanYVR]
DO: I think 37 depends on SW's finding.
22:46:33 [IanYVR]
[Veering into issue 37]
22:46:47 [IanYVR]
DO: One proposal is for metadata in path component v. fragment identifier.
22:47:52 [IanYVR]
RF: Not just putting metadata in the path. It's metadata that's to be interpreted by the client while inspecting the URI.
22:48:07 [IanYVR]
22:48:14 [DanC_jam]
ack danc
22:48:14 [Zakim]
DanC_jam, you wanted to ask that forms be one of the examples (perhaps redundant: other examples I agree would be good: making a new mime type that says how #blort works, and path
22:48:17 [Zakim]
... components)
22:48:56 [Chris]
old bad html forms?
22:49:09 [DanC_jam]
html forms are bad?
22:49:13 [IanYVR]
DC: And mime types say how mime types work.
22:49:19 [IanYVR]
ack Chris
22:49:19 [Zakim]
Chris, you wanted to worry about implying that inferring anything from scheme is also bad, which it isn't
22:49:21 [Chris]
hence their redisign, clearly
22:49:52 [DaveO]
Question: Can spec designers constrain the format of URIs to contain metadata in the path component of a URI?
22:50:35 [TimBL-YVR]
Yes lets discuss 0054.html . I disagree with 6 but agree with the rest.
22:51:07 [IanYVR]
SW: Question of whether
URIs can only be used to refer to mailbox addresses.
22:51:15 [DaveO]
22:51:20 [IanYVR]
ack IanYVR
22:51:21 [TimBL-YVR]
Answer: No they should not
22:51:47 [IanYVR]
IJ: It seems to me that a single finding might cover both issues.
22:51:52 [IanYVR]
SW: That might be an outcome.
22:51:54 [IanYVR]
ack DaveO
22:52:17 [IanYVR]
DO: RF suggested that WSDL WG not use frag ids for metadata. RF suggested alternatives in the path component.
22:52:26 [IanYVR]
DO: Or use of ";"
22:52:42 [IanYVR]
RF: Traditionally identifiers are orthogonal to media type definitions.
22:53:37 [IanYVR]
RF: Putting metadata in URI puts a tie between how URI is constructed and how media type is constructed.
22:53:49 [IanYVR]
RF: It's worse to do this for the path component than for the frag id component.
22:54:21 [IanYVR]
22:54:31 [IanYVR]
10. Use a URI convention that slashes separate namespace URI and component
22:54:31 [IanYVR]
identifier. Posted by Roy at [11]
22:54:45 [IanYVR]
22:55:10 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ to say that you don't mess with th e URI space because if one lot contarin it then everyone else does and thy clash.
22:56:34 [IanYVR]
RF: The reason I included this option:
22:56:39 [IanYVR]
22:56:39 [IanYVR]
22:56:51 [IanYVR]
RF: It's associated with same level of hierarchy.
22:57:21 [Stuart]
22:57:56 [IanYVR]
DO: When using frag id solution, problem of inconsistent frag id semantics across different representation media types.
22:58:54 [IanYVR]
DO: As part of issue 31, we need to say something in conjunction with issue 8. If you want to put your own semantics into frag id, you can't use RDDL or conneg.
22:59:06 [IanYVR]
DO: If people want to use RDDL, they can't put metadata in their own frag id syntax.
22:59:10 [IanYVR]
ack TimBL-YVR
22:59:10 [Zakim]
TimBL-YVR, you wanted to say that you don't mess with th e URI space because if one lot contarin it then everyone else does and thy clash.
22:59:14 [Roy]
22:59:29 [IanYVR]
TBL: The primary req is that you can do the right thing when you dereference the URI.
22:59:36 [IanYVR]
TBL: I think that making the identifiers unique is reasonable.
23:00:32 [IanYVR]
TBL: I think that there other ways to ensure uniqueness other than by prepending class description, however.
23:01:13 [IanYVR]
TBL: The reason that you don't establish conventions for how to interpret the last few pieces of the path is that you lose if anybody else defines semantics for the same components.
23:01:30 [IanYVR]
TBL: This part of the URI is not your space. This is server manager space.
23:01:51 [IanYVR]
TBL: You can't control what people do with URIs. The architecture is that this is internal to the server.
23:01:52 [DanC_jam]
ack danc
23:01:52 [Zakim]
DanC_jam, you wanted to ask how an arbitrary party "groks" this example URI
23:02:34 [TBray]
23:02:35 [IanYVR]
DC to DO: Do you have questions about the solution with the hash in it?
23:03:18 [IanYVR]
DC: Earlier TBL asked how an arbitrary party figures out that a URI is governed by the WSDL spec. I'd like to walk through that.l
23:04:08 [IanYVR]
Example URI: "
23:04:11 [TimBL-YVR]
The server writer and the server administrator own teh URI space on a server. As WSDL spec writer, you can't put constraints on that space, or there will be horrible clashes. The URIs on web servers are generated from exposed foreign systems, databases, etc.
23:04:27 [IanYVR]
DO: One of the issues is that, without a frag id, you don't know where the end of the namespace is.
23:04:59 [IanYVR]
DO: If you use this syntax, you can't get back to WSDL spec.
23:05:22 [IanYVR]
NW: You can dereference the URI.
23:05:46 [IanYVR]
NW: Send back the WSDL document.
23:06:11 [IanYVR]
NW: You can't tell what the URI means without the deref; but that's the same issue with the frag id solution.
23:06:13 [DanC_jam]
ack roy
23:06:22 [DaveO]
I was wrong, Norm's right..
23:06:37 [IanYVR]
RF: It's also fair do assume that if RDDL is going to be used as a descriptive text, that it's capable of defining an arbitrary number of frag names in the description.
23:07:41 [DanC_jam]
(if you continue that line of thought, you'll end up with RDF)
23:07:53 [IanYVR]
TBray: If you are putting metadata in a URI, it's at least questionable; this gets in the way of server administration.
23:08:10 [IanYVR]
DO: See option 9 for put semantics in RDDL frag ids.
23:08:40 [IanYVR]
TBray: Seems to me that the WSDL folks are pushing up against limits of what's comfortable to do with URIs.
23:08:51 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ to suggest the customer is right
23:09:23 [Stuart]
23:09:45 [IanYVR]
TBray: One could, for the RDDL media type, allowing redirection of a piece of a frag id to be interpreted according to the media type of the related resource.
23:09:49 [IanYVR]
DO: That's option 9.
23:09:51 [ndw]
ndw has joined #tagmem
23:09:59 [DanC_jam]
ack tbray
23:10:18 [IanYVR]
q+ Norm
23:10:23 [IanYVR]
q+ me
23:10:27 [IanYVR]
ack Norm
23:11:06 [DanC_jam]
ack timbl
23:11:07 [Zakim]
TimBL-YVR, you wanted to suggest the customer is right
23:11:29 [ndwalsh]
ndwalsh has joined #tagmem
23:11:50 [IanYVR]
TBL: What the WSDL folks want to do is a variant of what the RDF folks have done.
23:11:57 [IanYVR]
TBL: And it's reasonable.
23:12:52 [IanYVR]
TBL: The point is that if you find one of these URIs in space, you need to be able to find the link back to the defining spec.
23:12:57 [DanC_jam]
ack ian
23:12:59 [Stuart]
23:13:06 [DanC_jam]
ack danc
23:13:06 [Zakim]
DanC_jam, you wanted to say that the WSDL folks are trying to give URIs to important resources
23:13:11 [TimBL-YVR]
RDF does this quite successfully.
23:13:33 [IanYVR]
DC: Bray observes that "it hurts when they do this"; I don't think we should tell them not to do this - we told them to give URIs to important resources.
23:13:53 [Stuart]
23:15:04 [IanYVR]
NW: How does it help if the WSDL document is an RDF?
23:15:56 [IanYVR]
RF: RDF has not invented any of this stuff....
23:15:59 [Chris]
nw: rdf fails the same way this fails - no idea what the fragment means until you retrieve the resource
23:16:21 [DaveO]
23:16:35 [IanYVR]
ack DaveO
23:16:51 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ to propose we recommend [3]
23:16:57 [TBray]
23:17:20 [Roy]
23:17:22 [IanYVR]
DO: For RDDL, we should look at this question of indirection, and how to include metadata in URIs that can be forwarded through RDDL.
23:17:26 [Stuart]
23:17:40 [IanYVR]
PC: In v1?
23:17:44 [IanYVR]
TBray: Yes. I think it would be useful.
23:17:47 [IanYVR]
ack TimBL-YVR
23:17:47 [Zakim]
TimBL-YVR, you wanted to propose we recommend [3]
23:17:47 [DanC_jam]
ack timb
23:17:49 [TimBL-YVR]
ack tim
23:18:22 [IanYVR]
TBL: The RDDL solution doesn't work with RDF. Anyone who uses RDDL has to put a wrapper around their frag id.
23:18:34 [Chris]
23:18:38 [Chris]
23:18:56 [IanYVR]
RF: If RDDL treats all frag ids as opaque strings....
23:19:10 [Chris]
23:19:14 [Chris]
23:19:25 [Chris]
look no parens
23:19:40 [IanYVR]
TBL: Suppose RDDL doc points to three alternative formats, you need to know format of related resource to interpret frag id semantics.
23:19:44 [Stuart]
23:19:49 [Stuart]
ack Roy
23:20:07 [IanYVR]
RF: Use flat namespaces.
23:20:23 [Stuart]
q+ DanC
23:21:00 [IanYVR]
ack DanC
23:21:02 [ndw]
23:21:07 [IanYVR]
ack DanC_jam
23:21:07 [Zakim]
DanC_jam, you wanted to suggest RDDL has union links
23:22:03 [IanYVR]
DC: I claim that RDF solves these problems. But if you want to have RDDL doc in between - if you want to interpret the frag id w.r.t. a RDDL document, you are saying you can use a fragment in any of the alternative related resources.
23:22:24 [Stuart]
23:22:43 [IanYVR]
TBL: This is only for the case of "ids".
23:23:16 [IanYVR]
ack ndw
23:23:18 [TimBL-YVR]
RDDL = Poor Man's Content Negotiation
23:23:35 [DaveO]
WSDL proposal does NOT use "ids".
23:24:08 [DaveO]
23:24:46 [Stuart]
q+ Chris
23:25:02 [Chris]
q+ to wish fragment identifiers identified fragments not 'you get to rewrite any spec'
23:25:04 [DanC_jam]
ack daveo
23:25:09 [IanYVR]
TBray: Could write RDDL spec to say that you can't interpret RDDL instance until you've
23:25:13 [IanYVR]
retrieved related resources
23:25:40 [DanC_jam]
using RDDL as the content of the HTTP 4xxx "multiple choices" would be pretty ideal.
23:25:42 [TBray]
can't interpret RDDL #fragment IDs against rDDL itself, but agaisnt a related resource
23:25:43 [Chris]
deferred fragment attachment on indirection
23:26:07 [Chris]
so, can never point to a part of a rddl document, in consequence
23:26:23 [IanYVR]
TBray: The price of this is that you lose the ability to point to a thing inside the RDDL document itself.
23:26:28 [IanYVR]
q+ Roy
23:26:32 [DanC_jam]
ack chris
23:26:32 [Zakim]
Chris, you wanted to wish fragment identifiers identified fragments not 'you get to rewrite any spec'
23:27:30 [IanYVR]
TBray: When you register a media type you should specify the frag id semantics. It's perfectly ok to specify the semantics to be "This frag id doesn't apply to me; it applies to a related resource representation."
23:27:45 [DanC_jam]
(this conflict between pointing at parts of XML documents and pointing at 'abstract components' is well known in RDF-land, fyi... it's related to our RDF in XHTML issue, and our fragments in XML issues)
23:27:49 [IanYVR]
ack Roy
23:28:10 [TBray]
23:28:18 [IanYVR]
RF:Unless you use xpointer, I don't see any reason why the syntax wouldn't be identical for the WSDL document as it would be for the RDDL document.
23:28:50 [TBray]
q+ to say that you can to point into a RDDL document just fine
23:28:51 [IanYVR]
RF: E.g., if you use a dot-separated list of names as WSDL frag id syntax, there's no reason why that syntax and the RDDL syntax couldn't be consistent.
23:29:42 [Stuart]
23:29:57 [Stuart]
ack TBray
23:29:57 [Zakim]
TBray, you wanted to say that you can to point into a RDDL document just fine
23:30:30 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ to propose [3]
23:31:27 [IanYVR]
[Examining options of issue 37]
23:31:44 [IanYVR]
23:31:56 [IanYVR]
DO: Let's look at requiremens.
23:32:06 [IanYVR]
1. It must be possible to identify each conceptual element in a WSDL
23:32:06 [IanYVR]
vocabulary with a URI.
23:32:12 [IanYVR]
2. It should be simple to create and use the URI
23:32:16 [IanYVR]
3. It must be compliant with the URI specification.
23:32:23 [IanYVR]
4. It should be able to identify WSDL extensions, ala soap:binding,
23:32:23 [IanYVR]
soap:operation, soap:address, soap:body, soap:action, soap:fault,
23:32:24 [IanYVR]
soap:header, soap:headerfault, http:address, http:binding, http:urlEncoded,
23:32:24 [IanYVR]
http:urlReplacement, mime:content, etc.
23:32:35 [IanYVR]
5. It should be possible to use relative URIs for the abstract components
23:32:45 [IanYVR]
6. It should be possible to extract the type information from the URI.
23:32:56 [IanYVR]
7. It should be possible to retrieve a namespace name document given an
23:32:56 [IanYVR]
astract component reference.
23:38:39 [IanYVR]
DC: I don't buy all of the requirements.
23:38:41 [Chris]
comment on requirement 6:
23:38:43 [Chris]
23:39:07 [IanYVR]
DC, TBL: I don't agree with 6.
23:39:15 [Chris]
I can extract a type (dateTime) from that URI or rather, I can use that URI to identify dateTime type
23:39:16 [IanYVR]
TBL: Req 6 is architecturally harmful.
23:39:42 [Stuart]
q+ Chris
23:39:54 [Stuart]
ack TimBL
23:39:54 [Zakim]
TimBL-YVR, you wanted to propose [3]
23:40:09 [Stuart]
ack Dan
23:40:09 [Zakim]
DanC_jam, you wanted to note that issue 37 is now barely distinguishable from issue
23:40:15 [DanC_jam]
23:40:23 [DanC_jam]
I haven't gotten the floor
23:40:24 [IanYVR]
CL: People who define URIs can put whatever metadata they want in the URI.
23:40:35 [Stuart]
23:41:12 [Roy]
23:41:24 [Roy]
ack Chris
23:41:41 [DanC_jam]
ack danc
23:41:41 [Zakim]
DanC_jam, you wanted to note that issue 37 is now barely distinguishable from issue
23:42:07 [IanYVR]
DC: Issue 28 related - do frag ids refer to syntactic element or can they refer to abstractions?
23:42:32 [IanYVR]
DO: Issue 37 proposes a particular interpretation for issue 28. But if we recommend another solution for 37, it's not related (i.e., frag ids not used).
23:42:36 [Stuart]
ack Roy
23:42:50 [ndwalsh]
ndwalsh has joined #tagmem
23:43:04 [IanYVR]
RF: For req 5 - does "relative URI" mean relative to the namespace URI or unrestricted relative URIs?
23:43:22 [IanYVR]
RF: Only way you'll get unrestricted is if you don't use frag id syntax solution.
23:44:27 [IanYVR]
TBray: What are the identifiers used for in practice?
23:44:32 [Stuart]
23:44:39 [IanYVR]
DO: E.g., identification of input when building tooling.
23:44:41 [Roy]
23:44:52 [IanYVR]
DO: They might have a lookup to see what the name is.
23:45:10 [IanYVR]
DO: There's talk about, on the wire, specifying what an action is in a SOAP header and mapping that to the input.
23:45:30 [IanYVR]
TBray: Sounds like they want to do what URNs are designed to do.
23:46:15 [Stuart]
ack Danc
23:46:15 [Zakim]
DanC_jam, you wanted to ask that the record show that we has some comments and questions on requirement 5, 6, and 7, but that said, let's look at solutions in any order dave
23:46:18 [Zakim]
... chooses
23:46:21 [IanYVR]
DC: We've discussed the reqs to my satisfaction.
23:46:29 [Stuart]
ack Roy
23:47:30 [Roy]
23:47:37 [IanYVR]
NW, SW, TB: I can live with option 1.
23:47:56 [DanC_jam]
(paste pointer to list again, pls?)
23:48:05 [IanYVR]
23:49:19 [DanC_jam]
(we're talking about #2 now?)
23:49:31 [IanYVR]
DO: Sometimes WSDL docs are modularized; hard to constrain uniqueness constraint across WSDL docs.
23:49:42 [IanYVR]
TBL, NW, DC, CL, TB: Can live with option 2
23:49:56 [IanYVR]
RF: I could live with it as well, but I don't think it's a realistic solution.
23:50:06 [IanYVR]
RF: Too many names.
23:50:15 [IanYVR]
PC: That's why I didn't put up my hand.
23:50:37 [IanYVR]
RF: Lots of human error possible in generation in individual names.
23:50:45 [IanYVR]
[option 3]
23:50:57 [IanYVR]
Require Unique NCNames.
23:51:05 [IanYVR]
DO: You combine the symbol spaces into one.
23:51:33 [IanYVR]
DO: You combine the symbol spaces into a single space, within a particular WSDL document.
23:52:08 [IanYVR]
TBray: This is identical to choosing an id.
23:52:17 [IanYVR]
TBray: 3 is a flavor of 2
23:52:40 [IanYVR]
Option 4
23:52:43 [IanYVR]
Use XPointer
23:52:54 [DanC_jam]
(perhaps ask who prefers this option when asking who could live with it)
23:53:21 [IanYVR]
DO: I think this uses xpointer framework and element scheme.
23:53:38 [IanYVR]
{Nobody likes}
23:53:46 [IanYVR]
[Option 5]
23:53:54 [IanYVR]
Use element(), XPointer framework
23:54:11 [IanYVR]
CL: Problems with this option are fixable.
23:54:15 [IanYVR]
{But no strong support}
23:54:22 [IanYVR]
[Option 6]
23:54:28 [IanYVR]
Develop WSD specific Xpointer scheme
23:54:37 [IanYVR]
NW, CL: Can live with option 6
23:54:47 [IanYVR]
[Option 7]
23:55:00 [IanYVR]
Schema component designators
23:55:08 [IanYVR]
CL: Less ugly than 4!
23:55:22 [TBray]
Record to show that ones I don't vote for in some cases because I just don't understand
23:55:43 [IanYVR]
DC: Inasmuch as option 7 is not good for WSDL, I don't think that it's good for schema either.
23:56:07 [IanYVR]
PC: Schema's task is to define global and local things; different from WSDL task (global only)
23:56:25 [IanYVR]
NW, CL: Could live with 7
23:56:34 [Roy]
23:56:57 [IanYVR]
ack Roy
23:57:48 [IanYVR]
RF: Earlier I was going to say that info isn't metadata if it's necessary to identify the resource in question.
23:57:56 [IanYVR]
[option 8]
23:58:06 [DanC_jam]
(what Roy mentioned about 'not metadata' is the restrictive vs. non-restrictive clauses, as we discussed, Ian)
23:58:07 [IanYVR]
8. Use namespace name and new fragment identifier syntax. This is the
23:58:07 [IanYVR]
current WSD proposal.
00:00:22 [IanYVR]
ack DanC
00:00:53 [Stuart]
00:01:01 [IanYVR]
DC: I think that there's a risk, but not a violation. If you fetch the thing and get WSDL, you can get authoritative info. If you don't fetch it you take the risk that you're wrong.
00:01:22 [IanYVR]
DC: But someone else could have told you that the doc you get back is WSDL...
00:02:03 [IanYVR]
ack Chris
00:02:36 [IanYVR]
CL: What about ".....#/.../..."
00:02:43 [Stuart]
00:03:04 [IanYVR]
DO: So that after "# and before first "/" is symbol space.
00:03:40 [IanYVR]
CL: I believe it's much clearer to use functional notation, and there might be text after the end of the closing paren.
00:03:58 [IanYVR]
ack TBray
00:04:10 [IanYVR]
TBray: I find option 8 unpalatable.
00:04:27 [TimBL-YVR]
q+ to ask about qnames
00:04:40 [IanYVR]
TBray: RFC2396bis still says that the format and resolution of frag ids depends on media type.
00:05:15 [IanYVR]
TBray: Option 8 is at odds with this.
00:05:37 [IanYVR]
DC: If the guy doesn't fetch the resource, it's not that RFC2396bis has been violated, but person who has dereferenced is taking a risk.
00:07:32 [IanYVR]
DO: If one follows option 8, it will lead people to put WSDL docs at end of their namespace URIs, and if they don't they incur risk that frag ids will not make sense.
00:08:56 [DaveO]
00:09:15 [IanYVR]
RF: This is a restricted application; you're not going to ever want anything other than a WSDL document.
00:11:56 [IanYVR]
[To be continued...]
00:11:59 [IanYVR]
00:12:01 [DanC_jam]
(we didn't just adjourn?)
00:12:04 [IanYVR]
00:12:05 [IanYVR]
00:12:09 [IanYVR]
00:12:12 [IanYVR]
q- ""
00:12:43 [TimBL-YVR]
625 W22nd
00:13:17 [DanC_jam]
(did we resolve to begin at 8am tomorrow?)
00:13:24 [IanYVR]
00:13:47 [Chris]
00:14:27 [IanYVR]
"Separation of semantic and presentational markup, to the extent possible, is architecturally sound"
00:14:29 [ndwalsh]
ndwalsh has joined #tagmem
00:14:34 [DanC_jam]
no story?
00:15:10 [DanC_jam]
hmm... making up words... restylability
00:15:25 [IanYVR]
DC: The story should raise the issue.
00:16:00 [IanYVR]
Accessibility offers lots of good stories of why good to separate content and presentaiton
00:16:01 [TimBL-YVR]
51 muddles level of abstraction and level of detail
00:16:16 [TimBL-YVR]
00:17:50 [IanYVR]
q+ to say that the strongest resistance he's encountered when telling authors to design flexible content is that they don't like styling other than their original intention. They don't want users to override their intention, for example, even if content goes from unusable to usable.
00:18:18 [DanC_jam]
yes, figures please
00:19:21 [DanC_jam]
yes, well, Ian, I think it's useful for the TAG to let those authors know that they're fighting the medium. There's a time and a place for that, but we can and should be clear that it's not usually good.
00:19:34 [IanYVR]
I understand that.
00:20:00 [IanYVR]
I note that what CL is covered by the XML Accessibility Guidelines
00:20:09 [IanYVR]
s/what CL/what CL has said/
00:20:48 [IanYVR]
IJ: There are costs of separation - packing.
00:20:54 [IanYVR]
s/packing/packaging necessary
00:21:06 [IanYVR]
Sure that's a cost!
00:21:22 [IanYVR]
If I give you one file, that's easier to view than if there are 3 files to use a spec.
00:21:31 [IanYVR]
URIs are good, but we
00:21:46 [IanYVR]
do have to deal with people doing things offline.
00:22:13 [IanYVR]
XML Accessibility Guidelines:
00:22:25 [IanYVR]
Guideline 2. Create semantically-rich languages
00:22:31 [IanYVR]
2.2 Separate presentation properties using stylesheet technology/styling mechanisms.
00:22:55 [IanYVR]
2.11 Specific checkpoint for Final-form applications.
00:24:56 [IanYVR]
TBL: Sometimes you want to limit the amount of reusability.
00:25:20 [Roy]
00:25:21 [IanYVR]
TBL: Distinguish level of abstraction and level of detail.
00:25:30 [Roy]
00:25:37 [IanYVR]
q- IanYVR
00:32:04 [DanC_jam]
ack danc
00:32:04 [Zakim]
DanC_jam, you wanted to note the 'possible' in the title
00:32:31 [IanYVR]
I suggest "On the separation of semantic and presentation"
00:32:38 [IanYVR]
I suggest "On the separation of semantics and presentation"
00:33:36 [IanYVR]
[Discussion of length of finding...]
00:33:52 [IanYVR]
CL: For the moment it's exploratory...
00:34:02 [IanYVR]
ack Roy
00:34:41 [IanYVR]
RF: Change "abstract" to "detail".
00:34:50 [IanYVR]
RF: Or talk about granularity.
00:35:02 [IanYVR]
RF: Don't say "abstract"
00:35:12 [IanYVR]
DC: For me "abstract" worked.
00:35:44 [IanYVR]
00:35:50 [IanYVR]
RRSAgent, stop


text:
Watching for harm, as the little ones drink - she didn't herself.
It is a huge delight to me, to see the wildlife in my yard.. I have got quiet attached to this family and the Crow who gets an equal amount of delight from peering in my windows.
For those interested, I have posted over at Tales From A Crones Hearth.. Magickal Plants

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Experienced Air Systems Specialists
Serving our customers for over 40 years, Allied Blower has gained a solid reputation as the leading air system expert in Canada. We supply dust and particulate extraction and pneumatic conveying systems for industrial applications. We offer a wide range of products and services and turnkey systems with proven technology. We help our customers find cost effective solutions that meet regulatory demands. With our technology partners, we provide solutions for fume and exhaust air purification, VOC control, solvent and odor removal from processes, waste wood utilization and supply the latest improvements in air filtration products.
Allied Blower's corporate office is located in Surrey, B.C. in close proximity to Vancouver – a city known for its engineering companies and service to resource industries. Our four fabrication locations in Western Canada enable us to provide fast service where needed.
Allied Blower is CWB certified and a member of SMACNA.
Teamwork for Success
Experienced and knowledgeable people are the foundation of Allied's success. Industry leadership is a result of our focus on quality, our solid reputation for dependable service and our track record for providing timely, workable and innovative solutions. We work with our customers and technology suppliers to find the best solution for specific requirements. We develop solutions through close collaboration with engineering services, extensive manufacturing capabilities and local installation performed by our experienced team. Our after-sales services ensure continuous plant operation, offering parts and repairs, modernizations and emergency services. Contact us for more information.


text:
Hearken to in-depth interviews twice per week from adventure sports lovers around the globe. An All-American success story. Born in China in 1938, he came to the U.S. with his dad and mom after WW II. An All-American at Lowell Excessive College, San Francisco, and St. Mary's College, Moraga, California. He was the youngest participant to named a primary staff AAU All-American. NBA Star for ten seasons. Noted as one of the hardest gamers within the NBA. His jersey number has been retired by each St. Mary's and Golden State Warriors. Inducted into the Bay Space Sports Hall of Fame in 2003.
Sure, dream about something and get them, thanks to development in technology. Would this variation mean empowering dad and mom to present their kids the best begin doable? Genetic modification is a process, through which a sure know-how or a set of technologies assist modify the genetic makeup of cells. It is the topic of considerable controversy within the subject of bioethics. Org is my private site about future technology and its affect on society. LONDON, England (CNN) – Deliver your associate, seize a seat, pick up your child catalog and start selecting. The process is meant to stop mitochondrial diseases including muscular dystrophy and a few coronary heart and liver circumstances. Creating designer babies who're free from disease and tremendous athletic or sensible could lastly be around the corner. And would you like them to be a muscle-certain sports hero? Y.
The stories he shares about his scouting days are excellent as effectively. They not only entertain the reader, but additionally illustrate how totally different the profession was again then in comparison with as we speak. There have been no combines, televised college drafts or social media on the time, so scouts needed to depend on their … Read More


text:
The Wethepeople Justice is a durable bike to explore new tricks with and is designed with solid Salt and Salt Plus parts, as well as clean colours. The bike is a versatile freestyle bmx built with a 20.75' top tube and a 9'' handlebar.
It is an optimal bike for novice and intermediate riders.


text:
Company Profile
Giben was founded at the end of World War II, in 1947, by Gino Benuzzi. Originally named Gino Benuzzi SNC, Gino found his niche producing and selling wood working machinery. His innovative designs and superior quality quickly gained national attention. When particleboard first appeared in the 1960's, Gino invented the panel saw with a top pressure beam and moving blades to handle the material more easily and efficiently. A complete revolution of its time, Gino's machines garnered international attention and Giben do Brazil and Giben America were born.
Giben America and Giben do Brazil continue to offer innovative solutions with unmatched quality. More recently, Giben expanded its product range to include a comprehensive line of Sizing, Edge, CNC and Special Projects divisions. Now owned by Anderson Group, an international leader in CNC technology, Giben do Brazil and Giben America are proud to expand our CNC division even further. Giben America and Giben do Brazil's partnership with Anderson Group means you get industry leading Anderson quality and reliability from a trusted source known for revolutionary designs and superior customer service.
With a rich history of proven quality and innovation, Giben America and Giben do Brazil continue to exceed the expectations of our customers. Let us help you find the perfect solution to your needs.
Giben has been a historical part of the success of my company. We have endured a lasting relationship that extends many years. I have traditionally sold their panel saws to my customers but now I have found great success in their entire product line. With their new line of edge-banders and CNC routers they have extended their competitiveness for a very difficult market as is Mexico. We have had many successful installations and I have been able to train my personnel alongside Giben Technicians. I am very glad to be a part of Giben both personally and professionally.Mauricio Rodriguez


text:
Koperasi Samudra Malaysia Berhad (KSMB)
Koperasi Samudra Malaysia Berhad (KSMB) was incorporated on the 16th October, 2009 and the establishment was to increase the socio-economic of its members. KSMB also established in order to give its members opportunities as well as to be involved in the cooperative activities. KSMB has planned diversified activities in economy and has consensus from its members for its business activities.
However its core business is CREDIT and venturing into Buying and Selling GOLD and KSMB is planning to be involved in the GOLD industry which include manufacturing and mining in big scale which rarely get involvement from any cooperate body and generally by Bumiputras. KSMB has entrusted its Supplier which later form as a subsidiary company that will be dealing in Buying and Selling GOLD.
KSMB strives to create shared meaning and purposeful action that leads to the achievement of desired business results across global boundaries. KSMB are synergizing its businesses for strategic positioning as a market leader with a strong and profitable business in consumer gold saving, trading and retailing investment.
KSMB has been successful in developing people capable of providing the leadership necessary to deliver consistently effective products and services to a global market place. In addition, it also leverages cultural differences into a distinctive business advantage. KSMB provides assurance to customers of consistent global leadership focus and direction.
Currently, Koperasi Samudra Malaysia Berhad (KSMB) has plan to create a Financial and GOLD hub platform in Malaysia in seven major related industries:
Personal Financing & Gold Trading Investment Platform
- Personal Loan Financing
- General Insurance
- Consumer Product
- Scrap Gold
- Pawn shop/Ar-Rahnu
- Goldsmith Retailing
- Gold Manufacturing/Refinery/Assayer
Contact Us
Koperasi Samudra Malaysia Berhad (B-6-0741)
Ibu Pejabat
No 3-2-1 & 3-2-2,
Jalan Setia Prima (H) U13/H,
Setia Alam Seksyen U13, 40170,
Shah Alam, Selangor.
Tel: 603-3344 8804 Fax: 603-3344 8802
*source http://kosamudra.blogspot.com/p/about-us.html


text:
Wag the Blog Redux: NY-20 as Referendum
The (still) unresolved special election in New York's 20th district has lent itself to all sorts of analysis about what the vote meant and why.
Some argued that the election signaled a continued rejection of the Republican brand, noting that the Upstate seat had a 71,000 person GOP registration edge that should have guaranteed a victory for state Assemblyman Jim Tedisco (R).
Others countered that the district is far more of a tossup -- pointing to President Barack Obama's victory there in 2008 -- and see some evidence that Republicans have bottomed out and are on the march back albeit slowly.
We put the question to Fixistas and culled through the responses for the best of the best. You can find them below.
A quick update on where the race stands: According to the New York Board of Elections, Tedisco currently holds a 24 vote lead over venture capitalist Scott Murphy (D) as the counting of thousands of absentee ballots continues.
Good For Democrats
"The results are not quite meaningless as many are saying. In this normally rural and conservative district, the expected result would have been a Republican sweep....Thus, the fact that Tedesco performed so poorly is evidence that the Republican cause is still stuck in the cellar in the Northeast." -- Posted by: jm917
"It is a big win for the Dems, because, even if Murphy loses, he pointed the way for the Dems to run against Rush 'n Bush 'n Right wing Gush. Wearing any of those albatrosses is enough to take down even a well established pol like Tedisco." -- Posted by: ceflynline
Good For Republicans
"Yes, Obama won this district and Gillibrand won easily despite a serious opponent in Sandy Treadwell. I wouldn't put a number on it but Democrats would have been more likely to hold an open seat last November than now." -- Posted by: kywddavid1
"This race was meaningless because special elections are always meaningless. Because special elections have much lower turnout and much more hype than regular elections, you can't compare them." -- Posted by: Blarg
"I don't think it means anything except that party registration figures may not be a good guide to predicting elections." Posted by: RickJ
Chris Cillizza
April 9, 2009; 7:00 PM ET
Categories: Wag The Blog
Save & Share: Previous: Sanford Fights Back On Stimulus
Next: White House Cheat Sheet: Polling Polarization
Libs? Zuke, honey, you have this all wrong: The fewer cons in Congress, the better.
Posted by: mattintx | April 10, 2009 12:11 PM | Report abuse
In case you didn't notice, there is no winner or loser in this seat. They have to wait until Monday, just to make sure all absentee ballots are in.
Considering the amounts of money poured into this race by the national committees, its importance to these groups is evident.
And the lawyers are already at it:
This race looks like it is going into Coleman territory...
Posted by: capemh | April 10, 2009 10:18 AM | Report abuse
I don't like redux.. this stuff is usually lame enough on the first go 'round.
Posted by: newbeeboy | April 10, 2009 7:51 AM | Report abuse
Moonbats. The libs lost a seat. There is no way to spin this. The Obama tide is receding.
Posted by: king_of_zouk | April 9, 2009 11:58 PM | Report abuse
Do not overlook the fact that The Disco is a well connected politician and top republican in the state senate. That he was pushed this far in a district where republicans hold such an advantage by a first time candidate says a lot about the republican brand these days.
Posted by: thecorinthian | April 9, 2009 11:30 PM | Report abuse
looks like biden has completely lost his mind........again.
Posted by: king_of_zouk | April 9, 2009 11:20 PM | Report abuse
The comments to this entry are closed.


text:
All-in-one set for MF/HF SSB radio telephone and Class A/E DSC operation
Built-in DSC, Class A
The IC-M801GMDSS has Class A DSC operation and meets GMDSS requirements and MED 96/98/EC, "wheel mark" requirements for solas regulated vessels.
4×8 inch remote controller
The IC-M801GMDSS offers an industry standard 4-inch tall remote controller. When set up with the IC-M603 or M505 VHF radio, Icom offers you a complete MF/HF/VHF communications station.
Large LCD with full dot-matrix characters
The M801GMDSS has the capability of up to 24 characters × 9 lines full dot-matrix display. You can easily read the alphanumeric channel name, DSC coordination, time, position, etc.
Digital signal processing
The DSP controlled digital IF filter provides flexible filter settings for narrow band signals like SITOR and FSK without having to install an optional narrow filter.
24V power supply available
The IC-M801GMDSS has built-in DC-DC power converter, which provides 13.6V DC either from 24V DC, depending on version.
Automatic antenna tuner, AT-141
An optional automatic tuner, AT-141, easily connects to the IC-M801GMDSS. When the tuner cannot tune the antenna, the ICM801E bypasses the tuner and displays an alert on the display.
125W (PEP) of output power
A stable 125W of output power provides reliable long distance communication. The RF unit is enclosed in a rugged metal case and the large cooling fan ensures stable internal temperature even during high duty operation.
Other features
- 0.5–29.999MHz continuous receiver coverage
- D-SUB connector for NBDP terminal
- GPS connector
- IEC61162-1 connector for PC remote control
- Printer connector


text:
Chinese Sticky Rice Cake
Total Time: 3 hr 20 min (Prep 15 min; Cook 55 min)
Yield: 24 servings
1 (16 ounce) box sweet rice flour (mochiko)
1 cup canola oil
2 1/2 cups milk
1 1/2 cups white sugar
1 teaspoon baking powder
3 eggs, beaten
1/2 (18.75 ounce) can sweetened red bean paste
2 tablespoons toasted sesame seeds
1.Preheat an oven to 325 degrees F (165 degrees C). Lightly grease a 9x13 inch baking pan.
2.Mix rice flour, canola oil, milk, sugar, and baking powder in a large bowl. Stir in the beaten eggs. Pour the mixture into the baking pan. Drop small spoonfuls of the red bean paste into the flour mixture about 1 to 2 inches apart, making sure that the red bean paste is covered by the flour mixture. Sprinkle with toasted sesame seeds.
3.Bake in the preheated oven until a toothpick inserted into the center comes out clean, about 55 minutes. Cool in the pans for 10 minutes before removing to cool completely on a wire rack.


text:
For those of you who don't know, Hello Tomorrow Challenge is a global startup competition for promising science and technology projects that aim to create positive change. The application period is between April 19 – June 17, and the grand finale will be held in Paris during the Hello Tomorrow Summit, October 13-14.
If you're a startup or have a project with less than $2 million raised AND you're working on a core technology to develop a product that will have an impact on industries and society, then you're eligible.
And now for the exciting news! This year, we expanded the Challenge to 9 tracks. This means you can submit your project in any of the following 9 categories:
- Energy
- Healthcare
- Personal Wellbeing
- Transportation & Mobility
- Food & Agro
- Waste & Water
- Factory 4.0
- Data & Connectivity
- Air Quality
What do you win? $100,000 for the grand prize winner, and $15,000 for the winner of each track. Additionally, the top 500 startups (100 from each continent) will be invited to the Hello Tomorrow Summit to meet and interact with sector-specific and invite-only investors, top executives and fellow founders.They will be featured in the Global Startup Ranking of early stage SciTech startups, published in more than 100 countries by Hello Tomorrow, top universities and media partners.
Click here for more information.


text:
Using her nude body as ''visual territory,'' the performance artist Carolee Schneemann has for some 30 years danced on the edge of the mainstream art world, producing bizarre, provocative imagery that runs a gamut of corporeal experience.
''Meat Joy,'' a 1964 ''erotic rite,'' took the form of a wild 3-D collage of human bodies, raw fish, chickens, sausages, wet paint and other stuff. It was, Ms. Schneemann says, ''excessive, indulgent, a celebration of flesh as material.'' ''Fuses,'' a 1967 film, depicted the joys of sex with a longtime lover. In her performance ''Interior Scroll,'' in 1975, she slowly unrolled a screed from her vagina, reading it to her audience as she did so. And ''Infinity Kisses,'' a series of photographs taken from 1982 to 1986, revealed Ms. Schneemann and her pet cat in tongue-to-tongue morning encounters.
These are among the 40-odd ventures on view in ''Carolee Schneemann: Up to and Including Her Limits,'' her current retrospective at the New Museum of Contemporary Art, from early paintings, collages, boxes and assemblages to the most recent installations, films and videotapes. Some of the installations are recreated; others are represented by documentary photos, film and video as well as by drawings and notes.
The evidence is here that as an early risk-taker, asserting her strong female presence in unambiguous terms, Ms. Schneemann, for better or for worse, helped pave the way for a number of younger artists concerned with body imagery, among them, maybe, Cindy Sherman, Karen Finley, Marina Abramovic, Janine Antoni and Matthew Barney. What's more, she had the nerve and energy to fight the time-honored premise that women enter the art world on male terms and to challenge some longstanding no-no's, like ''autobiographical'' (read ''female'') imagery.
''A painter who has left the canvas to activate actual space and lived time'' is one Schneemann self-description. And she did start out in the late 1950's as a second-generation Abstract Expressionist, evidenced in the show by a very derivative ''Landscape'' of 1959 and a big painting-construction, ''Letter to Lou Andreas-Salome,'' from 1965, that owes much to Robert Rauschenberg. But several small, theatrical boxes of the mid-1960's seem like miniature sets for a forthcoming Schneemann event, among them ''Pharaoh's Daughter'' (1966), a construction whose seven segments are rigged out with colored lights, shards of mirror, small machine parts, a clock and a slide of an ancient Biblical drawing.Continue reading the main story
She came to her role as performer in the early 60's, a time when the art scene was jumping with off-easel events. Chief among them were Happenings by Allan Kaprow, Claes Oldenburg and Jim Dine, and doings at the avant-garde Judson Dance Theater in Greenwich Village, where theater, music, dance and art came -- sometimes jarringly -- together. A frequent choreographer and performer there, Ms. Schneemann appeared in a 1964 piece by Robert Morris as ''Olympia,'' the passive nude model in Manet's painting of that name. Like the early Happeners, who in effect translated painting into live theater, she began to use her body as an element of her own highly autobiographical work, which from 1965 to the late 1970's combined film, performance and environmental sculpture.
Some of her extravaganzas of this period are more interesting in conception than in actual performance, mainly because, like Happenings, their unscripted action is rife with improvisational bumblings. This is true of ''Meat Joy,'' a sensuous wallow of groping bodies that is the visual equivalent of hearing someone recount an erotic but boring dream. ''Water Light/Water Needle,'' of 1966, conceived as an aerial work for performers on ropes strung across a Venetian canal, but actually performed at St. Mark's Church in the Bowery and then filmed in a grove of trees, is another rambling case in point.
Ms. Schneeman's work is more interesting when her efforts are less cosmic, as in ''Eye Body,'' of 1963, where in the nude she interacts erotically with props in her studio, including her own painting-constructions. By the mid-70's, she was drawing away from the ambitious, technically demanding group pieces she had done for a decade and a half and returning to her initial involvement with painting, though in a much more dramatic form.
''Up to and Including Her Limits'' (1976) saw the artist dangling from a rope with crayons in her hands, her entire body a tool enabling her to scribble on whatever prepared surfaces the swings of the rope brought her close to. Invoking the gestural sweep of Abstract Expressionist painting, it is a strangely compelling work, a comment on the risks of making art. Its taxing performances have been edited down into a sequence of video pieces.
Rope, again, is a powerful motif in ''Mortal Coils'' (1994), an installation dedicated to 15 friends of Ms. Schneemann who died within two years' time, including John Cage, Charlotte Moorman and Hannah Wilke. As images of their faces and bodies, fragmented by a motorized mirror, are projected around a darkened room, 15 ropes that dangle from the ceiling revolve slowly, their ends coiling on the floor in tiny pools of flour. In revolving, the coils wipe away the flour, an erosion that seems to suggest the relentlessness with which death encroaches.
If Ms. Schneemann hasn't been given what devotees feel is her due by the art world, it's not surprising. Aggressive exploration of female sensuality is still not high on the agenda of curators and collectors. And for all their titillation, some of her endeavors in this area haven't been all that compelling. Yet as a whole, her substantial body of work (no pun intended) deserves attention.
''Carolee Schneemann: Up to and Including Her Limits'' remains at the New Museum of Contemporary Art, 583 Broadway, near Prince Street, SoHo, through Jan. 26.Continue reading the main story


text:
Love it, hate it or feel a bit irked by it since the dreaded update, you can't deny Pokémon Go is quite a sensation.
It's a month on since its release in the UK and we have been inundated with many weird, wonderful and downright terrifying articles ever since – some of which are as difficult to believe as catching an Articuno.
It's hard to keep up with the craze, so Voucherbox has put together a pretty nifty infographic showing the stats and facts from across the world (read more about it here). Whilst in the spirit we thought we would share 10 top facts from across the UK which show Pokémon hunting is anything but a game:
- The first recorded person in the UK to catch all available Pokémon was father of four, Sam Clark from Southampton, who walked 140 miles and lost two stone in weight the process
- Manchester taxi firm, Street Cars, is offering to drive Pokémon hunters around the city for £20 an hour
- Players have been warned not to enter the A&E ward of The Royal Stoke University Hospital, despite it's 'gym' status
- A Pokémon Go player in Gloucestershire called 999 to report a stolen Pokemon
- A group of teenage boys got stuck 100ft underground after entering a cave network in Wiltshire known as the Box mines
- Nottinghamshire Police received seven calls in one week from concerned citizens regarding suspicious activity, which all turned out to be Pokémon hunters
- A man jumped out in front of traffic on a road in County Down to catch a Pokémon
- A coastguard was called after a group of 20 youths stole a boat in an attempt to chase a Pokémon across a lake in Wirral
- Sophia Pedraza, 26, quit her job as a Teacher to become the first British full-time Pokémon player
- Pikachu has been spotted outside 10 Downing Street before Theresa May's first appearance as prime minister
We'd love to hear your hunting tales, so please share in the comments below. To get some inspiration, check out the infographic…
UK sources


text: The next France 8 May 2017 By Neil Unmack Follow @unmack1 Email Share Emmanuel Macron took the French presidency, but that still leaves Italy as Europe's other crisis-in-waiting. Elections are coming, disruptive parties are stronger and unemployment higher than in France. Growth-friendly policies and more fiscal leniency could mitigate the risk. This content is for Subscribers only To access full Breakingviews.com content you must be a subscriber. Please use the following link to request a trial. Existing Users Log In Reset Password? or Close Reset Password? If you need assistance please email firstname.lastname@example.com Cancel


text:
Juventus midfielder Arturo has commented on transfer speculation that linked him with a move to Manchester United last summer.
The Chilean international was the subject of significant interest from Manchester United over the summer as Louis van Gaal looked to strengthen his squad.
In the end, United signed Daley Blind, Ander Herrera and Angel Di Maria to improve a midfield that was found wanting under David Moyes last season. And Vidal admits he is happy to stay at Juventus after a summer of uncertainty.
Related articles
- Manchester United to renew Vidal interest in January
- Arturo Vidal aggravates injury on international duty
Van Gaal backs Mata to fill Rooney void
Happy at Juventus
Speaking to Tuttosport as reported by the Daily Mirror, Vidal said: "All I can say is I'm very happy in Turin. My family and their well-being is the most important thing to me and they feel great here, it's our home.
"It's never easy to leave home."
Along with Vidal, United were also linked heavily with Roma midfielder Kevin Strootman, who is a firm favourite of Louis van Gaal's. In fact, United may go back in for the Dutch international in the January transfer window, despite spending the best part of £150m in their summer rebuild.
United Premier League action
Manchester United take on Everton at Old Trafford on Sunday afternoon, with Wayne Rooney out suspended and Juan Mata set to take his place in the starting eleven.
Radamel Falcao and Robin van Persie are expected to start up front with Blind, Di Maria and Herrera in midfield.


text:
Last week Showtime's award-winning drama about a CIA agent and her intermingling with terrorists, Homeland, premiered; however, unfortunately it aired smack up against the finale of Breaking Bad. My decision of which program to watch and which to DVR was made for me. But I have since caught up on Homeland and was pleased with the season opener.
Last season Homeland, I felt, lost a bit of its "oomf." The Carrie/Brody relationship went through one too many "will they, won't theys" and once they killed Abu Nazir and Brody declared allegiance to his home country, the plot had flattened. The end of the season saw Brody on the run for fear of being accused of bombing a memorial service at Langley that killed over two hundred people, mostly CIA officers.
Season Three begins with Carrie (Claire Danes) under questioning before official council on exactly what happened the day of the bombing. What did happen was Carrie and Brody snuck out to swap spit and after the bombing they hightailed it out of there. She may not know where Brody is now, but she certainly knows that she helped him get on his way. But the CIA is looking rather bad right about now having let half of their staff get blown to bits and so secrecy is key here.
Despite their success at eliminating six major players in the terrorism club, Saul (Mandy Patinkin), who now heads up the CIA, goes before the interrogative council and takes Carrie by one of her skinny little legs and throws her right under the bus. It was shocking, considering his affection for her, but then she did have an affair with Brody and she is off her rocker - and currently off of her meds.
I should also mention that Dana Brody (Morgan Saylor) has just gotten out of place where you send your kids after they try and kill themselves. She's got a lot on her mind. And what's on my mind is, what happened to Mike?
Episode Two of the season finds a livid Carrie doing what she does best when she hasn't taken her lithium in some time, she is flipping the 'eff out, and rightfully so. The media has outed her as having an affair with Brody, who is still at large. Carrie takes it upon herself to set the record straight to the newspapers. Before she can get her side of the story to the press, she is taken to the hospital for an analyzation of her mental state. That's how the CIA keeps a person quiet, they call you crazy. Sadly, in Carrie's case, she kinda, sorta really is.
Carrie is not the only person who is losing it. Saul has pulled in a new analyst to examine the records that were obtained during last episode's mission. The analyst happens to be a young Muslim woman who Saul dumps all of his aggravations and some racism on. His misdirected anger was out of character but then perhaps the weight of his new position and the internal struggle that comes with it, has thrown him off his game.
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The analyst has something that may help ease matters. She finds in the stolen documents bank account transfers that have been assisting terrorists. But after confronting the bankers behind the transfers, she is, again, called out for her religion. It's such an interesting dichotomy; when Muslim terrorists are the "bad guys," how do you react towards a Muslim "good guy?" Regardless, what she finds is that all signs point to Iran.
Dana is still struggling to fit back in with her home life. The show is spending a lot of time focusing on her issues, and that of Brody's family. I like the Brody's, Dana especially, but where are we going with all of it? Watching Dana lose her virginity with her new boyfriend isn't moving the plot along. I hope there is a point to it all.
Carrie is not helping herself at all. Rather than keeping her mouth shut and, you know, acting sane, she is getting progressively volatile and is eventually force-fed her medication. We end on a drugged-out Carrie, yet she still has the mental capacity to tell Saul to go screw.
Carrie's illness has always been her major adversary and this season they are taking it to a higher level. Her internal tensions are what make this show gratifying; the plot just builds on top of that. She is crazy but you understand what she's doing, but then you just want her to stop being crazy. But she's crazy! Like many of the best lead television characters of the 21st century, her inner strife makes you love her and hate her and sorry for her and frustrated with her and angry and sad all at once. It makes for good television. And as of now, this season is headed in the right direction.


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I got to see Alejandro perform at World Cafe Live in Philly here on Wednesday. It was the best concert I have seen in a long time, maybe the best ever. It was that great. Here are two of the best songs from his excellent new album, "Real Animal."
Alejandro performs "Always a Friend" with Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band in Houston on April 14, 2008.
With his band, playing "Sister Lost Soul" at the Paradise in Boston on July 10, 2008.


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- Mia Hamm
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text:
Hi everyone,
Currently I am using Viewpoint V14.10 for monitoring and also feel everything fine. We find bad queries, diagnose system health and much more. Amonst all most helpful thing is when system go slow we find culprit queries using query monitor , metrics analysis and also seek help from workload manager, query spotlight time to time . It takes time but still helpful sometimes not, yes m new to teradata and my question objective is for this only.
I just heard about PDCR so I want to know whether it will be more helpful than viewpoint. More helpful means will it take less time, will be more easier to find bad queries and finding queries , parameters responsible for high delays will be more easier? Is Viewpoint capable to do all tasks what PDCR does?As its paid is it value for money? or should I continue with viewpoint only.(No m not discouraging to have PDCR just want to know)
i feel my question suits this forum but in case not, moderators m ur culprit :)
looks like there is primarily a misunderstanding.
DBC generally has one day of data of the activities that are performed on the database. All the data of that day will be flushed into the database PDCRDATA and is accessed through the PDCRINFO views.
PDCRDATA is a database which stores the history of records that were accumulated as per the retention policy applied(generally 3 to 6 months). VIEWPOINT will be having the rewind feature to access the historical performance data.
PDCR (Performance Data Collection and Reporting) is and continues to be a Teradata Professional Services (PS) offering. It creates has its own populated data collection tables within Teradata supporting a series of performance and capacity planning reporting (some displayed within PS developed Viewpoint portlets and others as Excel pivot tables).
So one should consider PDCR as an extension and complimentary to what the Viewpoint product portlets provides. Neither should be considered a replacement for the other although there are some similarities, for instance with the Query Spotlight portlet. PDCR continues to be a valuable offering, in particular for deeper performance understanding and capacity planning excercises. PDCR is used by a significant number of Teradata customers.
Thanks for response. Yes I havent used PDCR
What should I do for system slowness issue. I also read ur article for viewpoint in different points of view where you told for DBA system throttle settings.
I had already set it but sometimes delays goes so high. What should a DBA do for this. I consider Impact CPU, CPU use , Req CPU parametrs for responsible queries. How will you handle it? What other parameters or solution I should go for?
This is one instance when system slowness issue comes
@gryback So it means that TD install the PDCR database and tool, but the customer can ask for a PS service to understand the data?
Thanks in advanced,
Regarding the slowness post, sorry I missed that, thus the delayed response. There are a myriad of conditions that may cause sluggishness on a system where the system type, available resources, workload management settings, etc. come into play. PDCR provides additional reporting that could potentially help. I think you need to have this discussion with your Teradata Account team for more insights than can be provided generically here.
For Patricia's post, Teradata DB Engineering owns the PDCR structure/tables as of Teradata DB 14.00. However you still need to get the population and clean-up scripts from PS as well as the PDCR portlets for reporting.


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January 16, 2017
Attention Friends:
We sent this letter signed by Eagle Forum leaders throughout the country urging Senators to swiftly confirm Senator Jeff Sessions and to speak out against the unfounded liberal attacks against him.
Senator Sessions did a tremendous job showcasing his qualifications for the job of Attorney General at this week's hearings. He also gracefully disproved his critics attacks and showed himself to be the respectful, fine man we know and are honored to have worked with for years.
We need you to contact your Senators, whether they are liberal or conservative to urge them to confirm Senator Sessions.
Here is an excellent article about Senator Sessions' hearing:
A Well Prepared Sessions Disarms Opponents in His Confirmation Hearing, The Weekly Standard
Please call your Senators at 202-224-3121. Tell them we are tired of the partisan bickering and want to see them move swiftly to confirm Senator Sessions who has proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that he is well qualified to serve as U.S. Attorney General.


text:
Barcode Generator - Download Source
This is an old EAN-13 barcode generator, based on information found
at +ORC's doc and misc information.
Dec -> Hex Converter - Download
Useless Old source, was trying to do dec to hex algorithm
Gargamel Encryper - Download Dos Version Dos Source ASM Source Win32 Source
I have coded this tool for fun,
a simple made up encrypter algorithm is beeing used (very weak).
find how to decrypt here Tutorial
LIAP Decrypter - Download + Source (dos/win32)
L.I.A.P is a "Lock It And Protect" decrypter,
A friend of mine has a problem at school,
some program has been installed on the lab and uses a 'password' protected,
folders/files, only admin can unlock them..now you can too
RSA Bignum Calculator - Download+Source Code (win32)
A small app to calculate Big Numbers using Pow/mod
Function used in the RSA algorithm (decryption / encryption) using Miracl Libary.
Keygen Template - Download Source
Use this keygen Template for coding very small exe sizes in Visual C++ 6.0 win32.
example: 2 editboxes / 2 buttons = 2.5k exe
Password Revealer - Download + Source
This app will reveal the text under password
protected edit boxes using Mouse Hooks.
originaly coded by Savage/PhrozenCrew Under Win32Asm, This is a Win32 VC++
Port done by me and my friend.
OpenGL - Download + Source (VC++)
OpenGL over a dialog box without creating
new window - (W.I.P)
Chat - Download (Win32) + Source Code
This is an Client/Server (one direction)
Chat application, total size 5k each, coded under VC++ 6 - (W.I.P)
File Mapper - Download Source Code
Map a File into Memory and dump it,
Contains Source Code (W.I.P)
Game Boy ROM Header Dumper - Download
Use this code to view/edit (not featured) the GB ROM Header
Proview v0.8 - Download
Proview is an the most advanced / longest
application i have written so far.
Proview is an:
1. Pe Viewer
2. File Analyzer
3. Disassembler
5. Process Killer / Viewer
This specific tool is Discontinued!, i am Rewriting Proview -> PvDasm!! .
View Screen Shots here: Shot1 Shot1
Proview Last Update: 17.10.2002
Disassembler Engine - Download
This is a complete Disassembler engine written from scratch!
-Last Update: 12.09.2003


text:
We were blessed with some great weather, sun, and a great park setup for stop 6 of the tour at Sunburst Resort in Wisconsin. If you've never been, book a trip! Here are the day one pics for Sunburst! Thanks to all our sponsors: Skullcandy, Zumiez, SO-GNAR, Snowboarder Mag, Capix, Pow Gloves, Banshee Bungee, Allian Snowboards, XSI, Von Zipper, Headhunter, Spacecraft, Dek, Ink Monstr, LRG, Purl Wax, VAS, Bl!sss Mag, Arkade Mag, Bomb Snow and Snowboard Colorado Mag.
Photos: Terry "The Rat" Ratzlaff
Video: Steve Cummings


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Did India Block Blogger?
There are reports coming in that Blogger (aka BlogSpot) is unavailable for numerous India users without the assistance of a proxy.
Users are already sounding off upon the official Blogger forums, although one user is suspecting that the block is not due to technical difficulties (which is my first assumption) but rather due to "big brother."
Blogspot Blogs are increasingly becoming non-accessible in India. Surprisingly, if a person uses a proxy, she can have access to her blog. This logically means that Indian Internet Service Providers (ISPs) are blocking access to Blogspot Blogs in India.
Why this step has been taken is still not known. Even at Google's Help Forum this question has been put for further discussion and diagnosis of the problem. But even at the Forum the possibility of Blogspot being Blocked/Censored has not been ruled out. (CJNEWS India)This isn't the first time India has blocked Blogger, although right now neither the Indian government or Google have issued any public statements regarding why numerous users can not log into Blogger or view their blogs online.
While the optimist in me is hoping that this is nothing but a technical difficulty with an ISP, hopefully this isn't yet another attempt at government censorship.
Note: For those of you in India, can you confirm or deny this report?


text:
Value retailer 99p Stores is set to offer more of its affordable product range across the UK.
Partnering with Birmingham based property firm Harris Lamb, economical shoppers across the Midlands and the North of England can expect to see 150 new stores pop up over the next three years. After the 250th store opened its doors in Northampton last month, another nine or ten will open before Christmas. The next will be in October as part of a new retail park in Cirencester.
The expansion plan comes after 99p Stores has experienced a steady growth, now seeing a footfall of more than two million customers every week. David Walton, head of retail at Harris Lamb told Retail Gazette how prime locations are sourced.
"We take databases of key spots and use demographic figures" Lamb explained. "In order to locate the most suitable outlets, we look at rental levels and property trends in retail. Then there's the old fashioned way of visiting sites and seeing if they're busy".
Suitable sites will boast ground floor sales areas of 5,000-10,000sq ft, storage areas of between 2,500 to 4,000sq ft and have open A1 consent.
99p Stores' marketing strategy sees the focus on opening new shops "rather than on advertising" Tony Brown, chief operating officer tells us. "We review our three year plan every year and foresee further expansion post 2017. We appointed Harris Lamb because they have the capability to seek out the best proper opportunities" he adds.
Retailers like the 99p store serve customers well as a place to visit in between their main food shops. "Customers might do their fortnightly grocery shopping in Waitrose, but pop into their local 99p store when they've run out of deodorant for example" Brown explains.
It will be interesting to see how the chain places its new stores in accordance with main competitor Poundland which it undercuts by a penny.


text:
Our Clients
Ellington CMS is where award-winning news teams bring together the best of traditional and contemporary news to develop market-leading brands and community resources. Ellinton sets the industry standard for forward thinking online news and media organizations ranging from small weeklies to large metropolitan daily newspapers.
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Ross Ericson, co-founder of theatre company Grist to the Mill, is the man behind Buxton's newest managed venue, a 120-seat pop-up studio theatre housed in a geodesic dome.
He explains his motivation simply: "We are losing many small and medium-sized venues across the UK. With the Rotunda we can now turn up with our own theatre and set up in the car park if needs be.
"We see this as a way of breathing new life into British touring theatre. We wanted to bring our current productions – The Unknown Soldier, Gratiano and The Empress and Me – to the Buxton Fringe and as The Rotunda was going to be built by then, we thought why not bring it with us and launch it there?"
Fringe-goers can expect some exciting theatre including Ross's own play The Unknown Soldier: "We knew that it was a good piece but we didn't expect it to take off as it did.
"It took a while for people to realise it was not just another First World War play, that it looked at that terrible conflict from a new viewpoint, but now that they have, we are regularly selling out venues country-wide. We even sold out at Edinburgh Fringe last year!"
He is equally enthusiastic about the rest of the Rotunda programme: "There is the fantastic I Found My Horn, Jonathan Guy-Lewis' one-man tour-de-force, which is simply brilliant, and then we have the Wonderful Alison Skilbeck in Mrs Roosevelt Flies To London – she was on before us at the Assembly in Edinburgh and sold out too.
"Tayo Aluko was also with us in Edinburgh and we are so pleased we've managed to persuade him to bring his shows Call Mr Robeson and Just an Ordinary Lawyer to Buxton – he really is a seriously talented bloke."
He is also looking forward to seeing James Hurn's one-man Hancock's Half Hour, children's show Dogs Don't Do Ballet and Harry Burton's film, Working with Pinter.
He believes the Rotunda, as a managed venue, is "there to support our acts, not just to rent space to them" and he insists it is not in competition with the long-established Underground Venues.
"I know some consider there to be a finite audience, but if that is the case then the Fringe is doomed to failure," Ross says.
"What we hope to do by throwing our hat into the ring is to help expand that audience, create a greater awareness of the Fringe and what it has to offer. We want to become a permanent fixture at Buxton."
For the multi-talented actor and writer - who has been a soldier, a theme park designer and a teacher in his time - the Rotunda has proved to be one more irresistible challenge, and he is also ambitious for the festival: "We are extremely excited to be launching The Rotunda at the Buxton Fringe and are looking forward to being part of, what we expect soon will be, England's biggest Fringe festival."
Bookings for all Rotunda shows can be made via www.rotundatheatre.com.


text:
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Tag Archives: flemish foodies
In De Wulf
There's no such thing as trying to eat. One eats or one doesn't. And half-hearted promises are as loathsome as air kisses and limp handshakes. So when I told a guy named Kobe that I would come to a town called Dranouter, I meant it. Now I'm In De Wulf.
This place is in de middle of nowhere, so we'll stay the night in the guest rooms upstairs. But this afternoon, ambassadors from France, Spain, China and the US convene in the lounge — a UN of restaurant junkies. Friends old and new have just eaten lunch, while my buddy Jose and I await dinner. 3,600 miles from my house, I am at home. Continue reading
Le Grand Fooding New York 2011
I've just turned to page 44 in a book I can't read, written by a chef whose last name I can't pronounce. Pictured is a bird I can't believe he got onto US soil. And while his restaurant is one I can't wait to visit, for now this cookbook and this dinner will have to do.
At the moment, it's somewhere between one and four in the morning, and it's awfully damn hot in here. Could it be the abundance of candles? Or is it my displeasure that we are seated across from frat row, young finance types taking turns making fools of themselves? Twice in the last five minutes, their champagne corks have hit the ceiling. Why were these people even born? Continue reading
Posted in Food Events Tagged acqua panna, action against hunger, alexandre cammas, anna polonsky, campfire session, citarella, dranouter, emilie papatheodorou, exquisite corpse, flemish foodies, fooding, honey space, hotel americano, in de wulf, justin yu, kobe desramaults, la colombe, le grand fooding, mastercard, new york, nikoalan nselurfueymardcora, san pellegrino, veuve clicquot, vilhjalmur sigurdarson 2 Comments
The Flemish Primitives 2011
"You owe me, bigtime."
Those four words appear frequently in conversations between my girlfriend and I. By pure coincidence, I'm always on the receiving end.
Her eyes alone shouted them at me now. Some curious little man, cracked out on Spanish ham and Russian caviar, had just swiped an Italian sparkling water bottle from her hands and flashed it before the Danish gentleman standing next to us while his curious little friend photographed the crime.
The guy next to us was René Redzepi. And those two sneaky bastards were either chef groupies or desperate PR reps, maybe both. This was my poor girlfriend's introduction to The Flemish Primitives, a food festival held last month in Ostend, Belgium. It was my introduction to the doghouse. Continue reading
Posted in Food Events Tagged 95 keerom, a priori, alex atala, alexandre gauthier, arabelle meirlaen, astrance, beer, belgium, bruno goussault, carne sa, chocolate, chris young, clandestino, d.o.m., david martin, de jonkman, de librije, dominique persoone, faviken, filip claeys, flanders, flemish foodies, french fries, frites, gert de mangeleer, giorgio nava, guggenheim bilbao, hendrik dierendonck, hertog jan, in de wulf, institut meurice, jack o'shea, jonnie boer, josean martinez alija, kamo, kobe desramaults, kristof coppens, kuleuven, l'air du temps, l'eveil des sens, la grenouillère, la paix, laury zioui, li cwerneu, magnus nilsson, massimo bottura, michel bras, modernist cuisine, ned flanders, noma, oostende, ostend, osteria francescana, oud sluis, pascal barbot, rené redzepi, san pellegrino world's 50 best restaurants, sang hoon degeimbre, sergio herman, simpsons, stanford university, the chocolate line, the flemish primitives, tomoyasu kamo, ugent, waffles, wouter van der vieren 5 Comments


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"Dancing, art, every kind of creativity will definitely bring forth the Spiritual aspect of America's life. You know how much I love music. Through music, vibrations can be spread much faster."
Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi – founder of Sahaja Yoga Meditation
Learn about Greece & Greeks (deep chakra knowledge – check the links below).
Exercise for Vibratory Awareness – Feel Your Kundalini Energy Dancing while the Inner Joy is Expanding!
(VIDEOS) FLUTE Music & Chakra Workshop @ "We are One"–Burlington Art Centre – 2013
(click) Solving The Equation at R/Evolution: From We to One -2012
(click) Learn about Greece & Greeks – NABHI /MANIPURA Chakra Level Analysis & Goddess Athena–KundaliniPosted | 15 | 9,339 views
Minunat, wonderful ! Indeed, we x
can feel the real joy from the dancers , spread throgh all the people and through us also !
Thank you, Ioana & all sahaja yogis from there, Thank you Shri Adi Shakti !
cooool! 🙂
When the angels dance, the gods themselves come to see! Beautiful vibrations!
What an amazingly fun night! A couple of years ago I never would have thought I'd enjoy dancing up in front of people at all, never mind as much as I did, but being able to do it in thoughtless awareness is an incredible and joyous experience!
It´s wonderful!
A lot of vibrations of pure joy!
Beautiful vibrations, great joy!!! Make all of us dance, I also started to dance :))))Thank you!!!


text:
Tuesday, September 7, 2010 –
Quote to Live By:
"There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people." – Commander William Adama from Battlestar Galactica
Up Front:
Betty White Gets Her Own Comic Book [Entertainment Weekly]
3 Percent of All Twitter Traffic is Justin Bieber Related [Twitter]
Virginia Court: Police Can Use GPS To Track Suspect [WTVR.Com]
ACLU Challenges Laptop Searches and Seizures at the Border [ACLU]
Gearbox Discusses Aliens: Colonial Marines, Brothers in Arms, Secret Pitchford-directed Title and More [Joystiq]
PS Jailbreak Might Run PS1 and PS 2 Games on the PS3? [Gossip Gamers]
First Person: In defense of 'Happy Days' 'Jump the Shark' episode [LA Times]
Marc Guggenheim Talks Flash and Green Lantern 2 [Newsarama]
New Meme Alert of the Day: Sad Don Draper [Daily What]
xkcd Comic Wedding Cake [Pink Cake Box]
Aquaman To Resurface This November on Smallville [EW]
Longtime book editor Larry Ashmead dies at 78 [AP]
FDA May Approve First Genetically Modified Animal [LA Weekly]
What's the Status of Zombieland 2? [Shock Til You Drop]
Clint Eastwood Passed on 1978's Superman, Wanted To Play Namor [MTV Splashpage]
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Nerdy Want:
Magic Wand Programmable TV Remote (ThinkGeek, $89.99)