text:
No winning moves in spy game
Our intelligence agencies are under fire when they do their work (and we hear about it through a leak) and when they don't (and something unexpected occurs), writes Andrew Porter.
Like many children of the eighties I know, I've committed the collected works of Matthew Broderick to heart. The takeaway line from 1983's WarGames - a film that's equal parts Space Invaders and mutually assured destruction - is "The only winning move is not to play".
That line neatly describes the position our intelligence agencies today find themselves in. They're under fire when they do their work (and we hear about it through a leak) and they're under fire when they don't do their work (and something unexpected occurs). They can't win either way.
The recently re-named Australian Signals Directorate is the first in the line of fire at Senate Estimates if there's any perceived failing in signals intelligence. Go about their day job - quelle surprise, intelligence agencies collect intelligence - and apparently there's a legion of latter day Lazenbys on the loose.
Our intelligence agencies, like our Defence Force, deal with long-lead issues like emerging threats and changing government and economic situations in countries over years and decades. Indonesia is our most important neighbour, and we have an increasingly dynamic relationship with it; it hasn't always been so. To paraphrase Disraeli, our intelligence agencies hope for the best but prepare for the worst.
However highly we regard Indonesia's government and its people, for those wondering why we might have such a strong intelligence focus in our near north, it's worth remembering that the overwhelming majority of our compatriots who have fallen victim to the scourge of terror have done so in Indonesia.
For all the colour and movement about a lack of accountability, our intelligence agencies are well governed under the Intelligence Services Act, are subject to the oversight of the independent Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, and report to both the Parliament's Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, as well as to the individual agencies' respective ministers.
Intelligence gathering such as the reported targeting of President Yudhoyono and those close to him doesn't necessarily do as much damage as the inevitable rhetorical reaction suggests it would. It makes Ambassador to Indonesia Greg Moriarty's job in Jakarta more difficult for a time. But it's unlikely to see our work with Indonesia on the full range of issues of mutual interest ground to a halt.
Are these reports genuine? I don't know. Does the Indonesian government have intelligence agencies too? It sure does: they just don't work as closely as ours do with our American allies and so aren't the subject of leaks by Edward Snowden.
In the recent coverage of claims - again based on documents obtained by Snowden - that Australia has eavesdropped on a number of neighbours in the region from our diplomatic posts, our Ambassadors and High Commissioners weren't dragged in en bloc to explain thesmelves, though Moriarty was asked to explain the situation. No effigies were burned in front of our chanceries. Knock me over with a feather: our friends in the region have intelligence agencies too. And they almost certainly operate from diplomatic posts.
So what's a Government to do in a situation like this? There's a reason successive governments won't comment on intelligence matters. You're trapped the minute you say this part of it is right, and that part of it is wrong. The range of stories published in this space traverse the outlandish (I'm thinking the truly fantastical claims last year that the SAS and ASIS are taking a gap year in Africa ) to the simplistic (for argument's sake, let's assume that a strip of land in the Indian Ocean might just be used to surveil parts of that ocean, rather than Indonesia alone ).
Let's not kid ourselves: this has been going on since Philip Ruddock was in short pants. Governments everywhere have intelligence agencies. They do things that we don't have a ready understanding of, because we see only glimpses of what they do. We can spend our time engaging in hand-wringing, amateur analysis of their work over our espressos, or we can instead focus on the day to day issues that matter to most Australians, while our intelligence agencies continue to go about their business, mostly unnoticed in the background.
Andrew Porter was press secretary to Minister for Defence Stephen Smith. He tweets at @andrew_porter. View his full profile here.
Topics: security-intelligence, foreign-affairs
First posted
Comments (583)
Comments for this story are closed.
18 Nov 2013 7:09:34pm
Why the hell would a national broadcaster like the ABC & a national newspaper like the Australian not check with the relevant departments before releasing this information, are the just ignorant or only trying to upset relations with Indonesia to spite the Abbott Goverment
18 Nov 2013 7:37:38pm
Go check, it had nothing to do with "The Australian".
18 Nov 2013 11:35:55pm
Of course the Indonesians know they are being spied upon. Just why their leader and his wife and friends are being spied upon is not all that clear however, but it probably isn't because they are connected with islamist terrorists.
If you look at how the Indonesians have reacted, it does seem they are looking for an excuse not to co-operate with "Typhoon Tony" and "Jarhead Morrison" on asylum seekers. Why should Indonesia hold onto refugees who want to depart?
They have no reason to trust Abbott, especially when he did the rounds telling every Asian leader he met "You're the one. The most important friend we have". How fake and dishonest he must have seemed to them all.
Or maybe the Indonesians are holding out for a few patrol boats to be gifted to them at our expense? Like the ones Abbott just gifted to the cause of genocide in Sri Lanka.
Above all, the Indonesians are playing with a stupid opponent, like a cat with a rodent, or son of rodent. They are obviously enjoying having the upper hand.
19 Nov 2013 8:41:06am
This Intelligence gathering happened under Rudd, not Abbott.
Also, what other direction would any attack on Australia come? Do you think New Zealand sheep would suddenly invade? How about a bunch of whales from the Antarctic? An attack across the Indian Ocean is hardly likely either. We monitor to our north for the very simple reason that the countries are closests to us.
19 Nov 2013 8:54:19am
The intelligence gathering happened under Howard, not Rudd.
That is, it started, if it hadn't been underway even longer ago. But I dare say Howard's administration would have escalated the depth the breadth of the surveillance following Bali.
Try to be a little even-handed.
19 Nov 2013 11:48:53am
2009. Rudd, however hard to attempt the leftie spin.
19 Nov 2013 1:07:20pm
Do you think Rudd signed off on a memo to spy on SBY. Of course not, DSD (or ASD now) act with relative independence.
19 Nov 2013 2:01:59pm
No one here would know who signed off Case. But Rudd was effectively his own Foreign Minister so I am fairly sure it wasn't Steve Smith.
19 Nov 2013 4:05:49pm
James Bond was it?
19 Nov 2013 1:51:25pm
Roger, however hard you are trying to pin this on Labor and Labor ONLY, because the year nominated is 2009, there is no evidence to say that's when it began and certainly nothing to suggest it ceased with the current change of government.
Given the paranoia of the Howard years, with Howard hanging off George Dubya's shirt tails following 9/11, it's a pretty safe bet it started back then. And judging by Tony Abbott's failure to attack Labor on this (he never lets a chance go by usually) basically saying 'everybody does it', I think we can assume this is indeed the case.
Indonesia is ramping this up, because they have elections looming. Similar to Tony Abbott's performance here before the election, talking tough about Indonesia re asylum seekers. Following the election he went to jelly on his first visit there.
It's all a storm in a teacup. We are all under some form of surveillance, thanks to modern technology, anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves. For governments to imagine they would/should be exempt is just farcical.
It's how Tony Abbott and Julie Bishop handle this, that's the crucial thing - and I certainly don't hold out much hope, going by their diplomatic 'skills' to date...
19 Nov 2013 10:33:12pm
If Tony Abbott hasnt got the skills to have a responsible, fair,working relationship with women, what hope has he of having any diplomatic skills to work with our neighbor.Very much a PM on "L" plates.
In 9 weeks he has demolished the good relationship Australia had with Indonesia.Our overseas allies must be aghast at his ineptitude.Come back Billy McMahon, all is forgiven.
19 Nov 2013 12:51:52pm
GJA: This is what happens in the race to score a point you overlook the truth the year in reference is 2009 Kevin Rudd PM.
19 Nov 2013 3:21:25pm
Didn't overlook it at all. The spying in question may be specific incidents in 2009, but if you believe it wasn't happening before then, you are naive, at best.
19 Nov 2013 1:59:32pm
2009 was Rudd not Howard, but don't let facts get in the way of another attempt to re-write history. It didn't start with Howard it started long before the Second World War. Intelligence gathering is not new and is a fact of life. Your attempt to be 'even handed' was abolished when you stated; "I dare say Howard's administration would have escalated the depth the breadth of the surveillance following Bali". Intelligence is always expanding and its biggest growth period within Indonesia would have been during the dictator years of Suharto and the like when they had expansionary ambitions. Yes they were even bigger threats to Australia than the Bali Bombing.
19 Nov 2013 4:44:22pm
Your reading comprehension skills stopped developing when? Third grade? If you don't think the anti-terror legislation and orders from the PM's office didn't include stepping up surveillance on the Indonesian government, among others, you are an idiot. That surveillance continued, and was not necessarily initiated or specific orders issued from Rudd.
19 Nov 2013 5:57:26pm
GJA:You make it up as you go along and think it's truth we know everyone spies on each other. The issue is 2009 that's the relevance here.
the nose:
19 Nov 2013 10:23:57pm
Mortan, ASIO like the CIA Operate totally independent of the Government of the day, Rudd had no more influence on ASIOs methods of gathering information then you do..
Abbott unfortunately, because of his lack of diplomacy skills has made the situation worse, the mans a bumbling fool, as Keating said ,god help us if Abbott becomes PM.
20 Nov 2013 7:09:51am
I think the real issue evades your comprehension.
19 Nov 2013 8:09:41pm
The intelligence gathering has been going on for many years and well before Howard.
It's been publicly known for many years even to Indonesians, just do an internet search on facilities like "Pine Gap" in Australia, and on ECHELON and "5 Eyes" to find out more.
ECHELON, originally a code-name, is now used in global media and in popular culture to describe a signals intelligence (SIGINT) collection and analysis network operated on behalf of the five signatory states to the UKUSA Security Agreement (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States, referred to by a number of abbreviations, including AUSCANNZUKUS and Five Eyes). It has also been described as the only software system which controls the download and dissemination of the intercept of commercial satellite trunk communications. It was created to monitor the military and diplomatic communications of the Soviet Union and its Eastern Bloc allies during the Cold War in the early 1960s. By the end of the 20th century, the system referred to as "ECHELON" had evolved beyond its military/diplomatic origins, to also become "... a global system for the interception of private and commercial communications."
20 Nov 2013 8:27:03am
John M and GJA, the difference is Rudd would have been able to handle it easily now and without putting anyone's nose out. Tony, at heart, is only pigheaded and imagines himself when having blinkers on the others can't see him either.
19 Nov 2013 9:23:33am
Are you actually trying to imply that the spying wouldn't/didn't happen while the Coalition was/is in power? It's very clear from Tony's initial response that any spying will continue as Australia sees fit. And if our friends in Indonesia don't like it, well they will just have to suck it up.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 9:33:58am
"This Intelligence gathering happened under Rudd, not Abbott"?
Not sure what information you have, JohnM (are you referring specifically to the hacking of SBY's phone?), but I'd have thought a similar level of intelligence gathering would have been initiated following 9/11, and especially after Bali, both of which occurred under Howard's watch.
However, maybe it's not such a partisan issue, however much some would like to make it out to be?
Ol' China:
19 Nov 2013 9:36:46am
'This Intelligence gathering happened under Rudd, not Abbott.'
Maybe, maybe not. It would be naive to think it has only been going on since 2009.
Its who it was leaked under that matters.
I'd like to know why Ed Snowden has let this out now under this government and not the previus when the information was there to leak.
Did the previous government do a good job at keeping this information and Ed Snowden under wraps?
Has this government done something to get up the nose of someone who has had this information ready to leak?
Does anyone really trust Indonesia and what they might get up to? All countries spy, probably no more than the US, the trick is not to get caught and if you do, have a really good explanation for it. It appears we haven't.
19 Nov 2013 9:58:39am
The question is why is the lefts burning hatred for Abbott so intense that they are willingly trying to destruct Australia's relationship with Indonesia?
What a sad lot you are..
19 Nov 2013 10:54:34am
Nick, those asylum seekers are heading for Oz, why does Abbott and Morrison want Indonesia to take them, that country has a huge population, we are half empty.
19 Nov 2013 12:20:40pm
there's a good reason why we are half empty, it comes down to the land being livable, however as you appear to be a latte sipping lefty you have probably not been further west than Stanmore if you are in Sydney and don't realise that if the truth is known probably 3/4's of the Australian landmass is not really suitable for human kind
20 Nov 2013 8:29:36am
And none, Horrocks, is suitable for whitefellers and their industry.
20 Nov 2013 8:44:43am
Horrocks, I'll go to the West and to the South, but never again to the North ,to Queensland, last stop will be Byron Bay...
19 Nov 2013 1:24:09pm
Until boat people formally seek asylum, it is misleading to refer to them as asylum seekers. They should be referred to as "illegal immigrants" or "unlawful migrants" whichever you prefer.
The reason our country is half-empty is because half of our nation is unliveable. I would argue that since Indonesia has such a sprawling population, it can easily take a few more. If they can't cope with a few boat people, they should stop them from arriving in the first place - not dump them over our border.
19 Nov 2013 2:10:50pm
Zing, how many skilled migrants are we taking yearly? Why, if we can't fit anymore people here. Let's leave the educated people in their own countries and take the same amount of asylum seekers. Fair?
19 Nov 2013 3:24:00pm
We have limited space.
Logically, we'll spend it on skilled migrants before we spend it on freeloaders. To do otherwise is neither rational, nor fair.
19 Nov 2013 5:02:48pm
Let's educate our own, Zing, and let's leave the skilled people where they are needed,in their own country, the country which PAID for their education. Fair.
20 Nov 2013 7:17:24am
Hey all you "open door" advocates if you take out the area of Australia that is unproductive due to no or very little rainfall you will realise that we are not half empty. Also we do not have jobs for uneducated non english speaking self selecting immigrants even if these people wanted to work rather than live off the tax payers. Noet that Govt figures show that 95% are still on welfare after 5 years
19 Nov 2013 11:12:52am
As posted elsewhere Snowden isn't even Australian .. so to suggest this is a leftie plot to get Tony is overreach. He and Assange have a much wider agenda than that. And to blame the local media is equally overreach. With the Internet/Facebook etc you can't hide this stuff much as we may want to. It has to be managed
19 Nov 2013 1:08:02pm
Ahh, but this information released by Snowdon was in the hands of the Guardian and the ABC back in June this year - why not release it then?.... because it would hurt 'their' side that's why. So hold it and release after the coalition are in power and make then have to deal with the consequences. A royal commission needs to be set up to investigate the Guardian and ABC after this as what they have done by making this kind of information public is absolutely against the national interest and compromises a working relationship with our nearest neighbour
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 4:08:23pm
Sammy, government censorship of the media might have worked for a while in the old Soviet Union, but it's not likely to work here. And nor should it.
19 Nov 2013 6:03:04pm
No one is calling for censorship here Mark James, but for responsible journalism, most particularly from a government funded media outlet.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 9:08:45pm
spud, so who decides what "responsible journalism" is? No doubt, The Guardian and the ABC consider what they have done to be "responsible journalism".
But if that is not good enough, as Sammy insists and you imply, then what?
If not "government censorship", then how do you force media outlets to adhere to your definition of "responsible journalism"?
19 Nov 2013 4:28:14pm
Sammy, you are absolutely spot on. Releasing this before the election would have seen Labor reduced to a less than 30% primary vote, almost total irrelevance, and very probably resulted in their ultimate demise as a political force in favour of a non-union moderate left party. At best the left would have been out of power for decades. The ABC certainly doesn't want that. Far better to wait until it can be pinned on the Libs to try to sort it out, and to release the information at the right time to ensure that Lib actions to stop the boats can be dealt the biggest possible blow.
The ABC should be utterly ashamed; for the damage they have caused Australia and for the partisan way they handle virtually every issue to damage the centre and right of politics in this country, but I bet they are very proud about the latter and they clearly couldn't give a stuff about the former; merely collateral damage in their war against ordinary Australians who have the temerity to think that they have a right to views differing from those of the ABC elite.
20 Nov 2013 8:35:46am
Sammy, if people were educated enough, the goalpost of what constitutes the national interest would shift. People could handle a lot more transparency, and should be able to.
blood in the water:
19 Nov 2013 2:38:53pm
Elvis, it was the international reporting of the issue by the ABC, that hates abbott, which caused the problem. Your right Snowdon has nothing against abbott. but the ABC / Green alliance certainly does.
Steve Mount:
19 Nov 2013 2:26:05pm
Nick ;
Firstly, it's not 'destruct', it's 'destroy'.
Secondly, Australia's relationship with Indonesia, good or bad, is at the beck and call of the Abbott Government.
'We will not ask Indonesia's permission' was a masterful demonstration of how not to do it.
No good blaming left bloggers for the outcome, Abbott's the boss.
19 Nov 2013 6:00:02pm
I beg to disagree Steve Mount.
Today's performance by Tony Abbott and that of Scott Morrison yesterday and Lt Gen Angus Campbell last Friday has convinced me that we have a zombie government controlled by US nano bots.
These "cool heads" are not showing the usual signs of life or ordinary human empathy.
19 Nov 2013 4:17:33pm
Nick the downturn in our relationship with Indonesia has occurred on the Coalition's watch. They are more than happy to claim success with 'their' asylum seeker policy which is actually Labor's, while any attempts to implement their own to date have so far failed dismally, so they can 'own' this too.
Can't have it both ways, not that the Coalition and their supporters won't try. 'Burning hatred' is stretching it, but it's not just Labor supporters who have no time for Tony Abbott, there are plenty from his own side who share that view and the number is growing...
19 Nov 2013 10:47:20pm
Nick, the question is 'why is the Rights hatred of Julia Gillard so intense that they were willing to constantly and erroneously talk down Australia's economy and disrupt Australia' parliament' ? The raw and vicious pursuit of power ...
19 Nov 2013 11:05:31am
My Ol China - you talk as if Edward Snowden is somehow linked to Australia. He is an American sitting in Russia and I would suggest he wouldn't even know who is in power here - or care.
So it is a long bow to draw to suggest that he has a vendetta against the Coalition.
But it is interesting to see your views on our "close ally and friend" Indonesia. I suspect Tony shares your opinion
19 Nov 2013 12:24:53pm
Snowden doesn't have a vendetta against the Coalition.
He just has a general vendetta against the entire western world. As do the people who support him.
19 Nov 2013 11:39:24am
It was all very available when Rudd was in power ( July 2013 at the latest). You ask a very good question, why now Aunty and Fairfax, why now ?
19 Nov 2013 11:51:22am
"Did the previous government do a good job at keeping this information and Ed Snowden under wraps?"
No, but the Luv Media did. Notice how this is all part of the daily Hate Abbott articles, especially in the Fairfax press. No wonder their sales continue to plummet.
19 Nov 2013 11:27:20am
The intelligence gathering has been happening for decades. But that is irrelevant.
What IS relevant is that The Guardian knew this information earlier this year but held off until a conservative government came to power. Now we have a co-ordinated attack by the Guardian, ABC and Age to tarnish the Abbott government with this scandal. All stops being pulled (even Bob Carr for christsake)
19 Nov 2013 12:59:39pm
"Now we have a co-ordinated attack by the Guardian, ABC and Age to tarnish the Abbott government with this scandal."
Makes a change from the Murdoch rags "tarnishing" Labor Governments.
The Indonesian Pres. is pi**ed off because Abbott is giving Sri Lanka two boats as a bribe to stop the people smugglers.
Anyway, if Obama can say sorry to Mutter Merkel why can't Abbott do the same to the Indonesian Pres. and give him two boats as well....purely as a goodwill measure of course.
Blood in the water:
19 Nov 2013 5:14:49pm
we have previously given Indonesia the same model patrol boats. True story.
Dr Dig:
19 Nov 2013 11:35:23pm
Show me where Obama apologised to Merkel, please.
19 Nov 2013 1:16:21pm
Hear, hear Dean. Time for Mr Scott to step up and honour the ABC's Charter. Can't wait for him to front Estimates and defend the shameless attacks on the incoming Gov't and the blanket attack the political journalists at the ABC have been running for quite some time now, all the while giving a mouthpiece for any ALP or Green position. There are people watching, recording and analysing your performance Aunty ! Neutral ? Fair ? Impartial ? Unbiased ? NOT !
19 Nov 2013 2:38:40pm
Oh how I just love a conspiracy!
19 Nov 2013 12:28:08pm
Who would want to attack us?
With US holding big investments here it might cause sabre rattling.
Why should we defend a nation we increasingly are selling off?
Bring in US and Chinese troops to protect their assets?
Me of Wherever:
19 Nov 2013 12:44:57pm
Under the Labor party the Liberals would have had all details of the spying but under Abbott the Labor Party is being kept in the dark, just like you and I are .
19 Nov 2013 6:53:30pm
No, it happened on the world greatest dude, Rudd's watch so the ALP already know the details, probably more than the government do, just conveniently blown up now, funny that,
19 Nov 2013 1:47:28pm
It doesn't matter under which government it happened, Rudd, Whitlam or Barton. Abbott is now in charge. Like someone who buys a company, the equipment, liabilities and hidden problems they also take on. Abbott now takes on any problems from whoever was there before him and before them. The real test will be (from what I know of him) if he can kow tow and say sorry. He has to if he wants Indonesian assistance to help him deliver domestic election promises relating to boats. It is they who are upset and who need to be pleased. It's one of the prices he will have to pay if wants to continue to be Prime Minister.
19 Nov 2013 5:07:53pm
LOL,, you would just give them everything would you ?. say sorry for what is the question. The last thing we need is a government that doesn't collect intelligence and a policy of appeasement leads to war, it always has and always will. The Indos are testing Abbott to see if he is strong or weak, if he said sorry all the time we would have to disband ASIO and the other intelligence services because they would not have a job to do. Indonesia can get out of New Guinea, they have no right to occupy those poor tribesmen, if it was Australia doing that just imagine the furore, why is it that Indonesia can get away with such a cruel occupation of a stone age people, how is it that no one on the left has ever complained about that ?, why ?.. because they have always followed the weak kneed precepts of appeasing criminals thats why, their moral outrage is very selective.
19 Nov 2013 5:25:52pm
Actually I bet it's been going on under governments of all persuasions for as long as we've the technology that enables it. Before that we did it in different ways, but I suspect we did it (and so did they and many others - I keep thinking of that old cartoon "Spy vs Spy").
Fatty Fittler:
19 Nov 2013 10:04:52pm
You are right there, virtually any attack comes from the north, either from Indonesia or further north but they'd have to get through Indonesia first. I doubt Peru will ever try, this is why we need America as a preventative measure. Only problem with the yanks is that these days they try to fight a war and be politically correct at the same time which is why the yanks lose every single war they have attempted (Iraq may or may not be the exception) in the last 4 decades. They have the power but they have not brought full force to bear since WWII it seems.
19 Nov 2013 9:50:48am
RayS, yes Abbott has new best friends among our Asian neighbours, yet he is not keen to accept tortured Sri Lankan asylum seekers to Australia...how come...?
The most of our immigrants now come from India, yet in Adelaide they are bashing up Indian taxi drivers, and Melbourne they are not too friendly towards Indian students.... yet we are happy take their money.
Are we racist or not?
19 Nov 2013 5:01:23pm
As an immigrant from India to Melbourne and having lived between Sydney and Melbourne over 7 years I don't think Australia is a racist country at all.
19 Nov 2013 11:24:36am
and of course the Indonesians do not have spies of their own doing their own spying...... or do they?
I wonder exactly what the Indonesian LEMSANEG signals intelligence agency does.
One would suspect that their signals intelligence agency does exactly what the Australia signals intelligence agency does.
"oh look... a storm in a tea cup, I must call the Australians to complain"
Mother G:
19 Nov 2013 1:16:48pm
The ABC is set on bringing down a government it does not like. To have hung onto this information for months then drop it now shows the ABC Agenda.
If this comment makes it onto the comments page I will donate to the Salvation Army.
19 Nov 2013 1:48:41pm
Didn't we give them a few patrol boats (now based on the other side of Java - not near the boat departure or rescue zones).
When it comes down to it, as if the Indons hadn't noticed, we have a number of spy stations run as US/Australian "joint effort" facilities, surely they realise we probably use them as well as staff them.
The big picture is they don't like it and they can give us a bit of stick over it.
We apparently knew about the original invasion of Timor before time as well as the treatment of 5 Australian jurnos at Balibo, (Timor will be a sore spot for years to come).
The biggie is using our embassies to spy from, not that it hasn't been practised by foreign embassies from time in memorial, but we probably need to apologise anyway.
Poisonous Mushroom:
19 Nov 2013 2:44:13pm
Maybe the ABC is tired of both itself and the Australian people being treated as mushrooms by the Abbott government and recognises that until someone blacks out Australia there is a great big world out there not subject to Mr Abbott's secrecy barriers but accessible to those who would like to know what is happening and what others are thinking
20 Nov 2013 7:40:34am
What rubbish - it was totally irresponsible reporting and against the publics and Australian governments interest and is tantamount to sedition.
Mother G:
20 Nov 2013 8:14:36am
As promised I have now donated to the Salvation Army. Having just read Mark Scott's comments about the ABC going full bore on these leaks I can only say he has a very strange concept of the national interest. There were some newsworthy aspects of the previous government he ABC refused to touch as "it would not be in the public interest"
19 Nov 2013 9:32:47am
You are right custard. The Australian has spent three years trying to get Abbott elected. It is hardly likely to do anything honourable like report honestly if it may jeopardise his position now.
Where's Tony:
19 Nov 2013 11:38:02am
Can you just imagine what Tony, Scott, Julie, Rupert, Alan, Bolt and the rest of the Right wing mob would have done with this pre-election. Get a grip folks, your prejudice is showing.
My god, the best that the Australian could come up with this week is another pathetic cartoon of Bill Shorten and Sherlock Holmes standing over the corpses of K Rudd and J Gillard. Press at it's unbiased best.
The rest of the fish wrapper is full of articles of praise for the current mob of incompetents. Looks like it is going to be another 3 years of Rupert running the country.
Don't forget the Rorts. Seems like a $3000.00 a week house wasn't good enough for our Tone.
19 Nov 2013 1:03:20pm
"Don't forget the Rorts. Seems like a $3000.00 a week house wasn't good enough for our Tone."
Organised by the Public Service for the next incoming Prime Minister, be it Rudd or Abbott, due to renovations at The Lodge. Lease signed prior to the election and now they are having difficulty getting out of it. Rort perhaps, but not of Abbotts doing.
19 Nov 2013 5:51:35pm
It was not an unreasonable assumption the incoming PM was going to need somewhere to live. He chose not to live there.
19 Nov 2013 8:19:37pm
Yes and given how he is always rattling on about the importance of his family you would at least think he would want a house to live in with his wife.
19 Nov 2013 5:19:24pm
We have finally gotten rid of the Gillard/Rudd government which was the worst government in Australian history, I just knew the left wing haters of everything Australian would carry on like pork chops shrieking and pulling their hair out. If the Left wants power why in helll don't they find good politicians instead of greedy, egotistic bludging mongrels who try their best to destroy the entire nation. I am sure the left is the biggest threat we have and not Indonesia.
19 Nov 2013 8:16:15pm
Fatty Not sure why you find the left so threatening, some serious insecurities you have?
You are almost right, we have just had three years of "the left wing haters" carrying "on like pork chops shrieking and pulling their hair out"
Where's Tony:
19 Nov 2013 10:47:44pm
Once again, anyone who has the slightest criticism of Tony and friends is accused of being a "Left wing hater of everything Australian".
The worst Government in Australian History, can't remember them starting an illegal war.
Seems the economy was in pretty good shape.
I'd add to this but I don't think it would put a dent in your biased mind. So why bother.
Oh, before I forget, I didn't vote for any of the front line parties last election, couldn't find a candidate who deserved my vote. Certainly doesn't make me a leftie, just someone who saw through transparent Tony.
18 Nov 2013 7:53:32pm
Peter, you must realise that the left's hatred of Abbott means they will happily saw off their noses to spite him. The real culprit is labor who see this as an opportunity to embarrass, regardless of the cost, even when this occurred on their watch.
Claudius Pseudonymus:
18 Nov 2013 8:25:25pm
Yes, quite agree. Some rusted on Laborite public servant or a party hanger-on who lost his job with a Labor Minister when Labor got booted outta office, leaking to the press. Yes, that's very likely and very typically Labor.
18 Nov 2013 10:39:41pm
Yes, typical comments from the right-wing nut-jobs as well.
You obviously didn't read the article.
It is reported to both sides of the parliament!
19 Nov 2013 7:35:22am
Now that's the pot calling the kettle black (what on earth that means I don't know but what I mean here is that you are sounding like a typical leftie loonie}....... You should have listened to the bloke, you might learn something for a change.
19 Nov 2013 8:42:36am
And under which government did the action take place? Labor.
Ergo if it fell to the government to approve any of it then it was Labor that approved it.
19 Nov 2013 8:52:20am
and done in 2009 under Labor's watch. Their spying. They should wear the consequences.
19 Nov 2013 9:18:44am
Andy, as your Idol says it's done by all sides of politics, by most countries...treat people as your equals, and you'll be fine. The Libs have to drop the bullying, smirking...it might work in Oz, but not overseas.
19 Nov 2013 9:44:27am
Andy and JohnM. Your responses are childish, that is point one. Point two is that we will probably never be told under whose watch it actually commenced. I suppose you can ask yourself who was in power at the time of the invention of mobile phones. Point three the current Prime Minister has the task to exercise some diplomacy, and he is not doing a very good job of it. he refuses to answer questions on the excuse that he does not want to say anything that will damage relations. Surely he has the wit to say something that will not damage relations. Or has he?
Point three is that you may be surprised to know that Indonesia is not very interested in what the opposition has to say.
19 Nov 2013 2:25:42pm
Probably under the Libs as they were in power when hundreds of Australians were murdered in Indonesia. And Labor had every right to continue the surveillance because Indonesia cannot be trutsed. Their intelligence either did not know about the bombings (in which case we needed to take matters into our own hands) or they did (and therefore Indonesia should be treated as an enemy of Australia). Either way spying on Indonesia is totally justified post the Bali bombings.
blood in the water:
19 Nov 2013 2:32:39pm
Funny observation TOM1.
If Indonesia is not interested in what the aust opposition has to say. Why have we been told for the past 6 years that abbott's policies would lead to almost war with Indonesia.
19 Nov 2013 3:51:47pm
Indonesia is no more interested in hearing form the opposition than any other aggrieved country would be interested in hearing officially from the opposition of any country they have a grievance with. That is fairly logical. Except of course to anyone that wants to make a political point out of it.
19 Nov 2013 9:47:11am
Following your line of reasoning Andy would mean that the opposition spokesperson on Foreign Affairs should deal with this issue?
Are you saying that no spying took place under Howard or Keating or Hawke and so on?
Tony is PM and Julie is the Foreign Minister, this brouhaha is happening on their watch, it is up to them to deal with it.
19 Nov 2013 10:02:05am
and Paul the issue is being dealt with.
I'd like to know what you think Abbott should do?
If you think he should apologise then it is obvious you know nothing about International diplomacy.
19 Nov 2013 1:03:19pm
"If you think he should apologise then it is obvious you know nothing about International diplomacy."
Ah bless....
Obama has apologised to Merkel hasn't he?
19 Nov 2013 2:15:55pm
Agree Clotho!
What was Abbott's response?
"all governments gather information".
Great "international diplomacy" there, Nick?
Abbott's a complete goose and I've always said he has no diplomacy skills!!
19 Nov 2013 9:53:40pm
The consequences should be that they get praised for doing their job. I can't believe that it's the right wing nutters complaining because we're spying on a country we've been in a shooting war with; a country that's launched unprovoked invasions on two of its neighbours with accompanying atrocities a country whose home-grown terrorists have specifically targeted Australians and to top it off has seriously corrupt politicians, police and judiciary.
It's usually just the left that would complain about that - the bipartisan whining is gratifying.
18 Nov 2013 11:05:10pm
Trev and Claudius I am impressed with your ability to use any event to blame Labor! But the fact is that we are catching the backwash of a US security failure, neither Labor or Coalition governments are at fault, it's just Tony's misfortune that it came out on his watch and he has to deal with it.
BTW this is one area (security and intelligence) where Labor and Coalition policies are bipartisan. Try and remember that.
19 Nov 2013 5:41:31pm
It wasn't when news of the Spooks new HQ in Canberra was supposedly compromised security wise by the Chinese, there were calls then from the Coalition, for Labor to come clean and tell all.
It appears they still are inept with diplomacy and the how to deal with security issues.
Yes this is an American security failure that we have been involved in through our alliance with Washington.
Wining Pom:
19 Nov 2013 1:13:42am
If you listened to the new you would have seen that it was Edward Snowdon who released it.
Ghost of Christmas Present:
19 Nov 2013 9:50:10am
But it is "our ABC" who has provided the story with wall to wall media coverage, damaging our national interest.
19 Nov 2013 10:27:22am
What a foolish comment Ghost.
You are criticising the ABC for reporting the news?
I watched ABC News this morning for an hour or so and while this issue was covered so were many other pertinent issues.
Ghost of Christmas Present:
19 Nov 2013 12:19:23pm
The ABC is not reporting the news it is fermenting it by giving it saturation coverage on all of its media channels. Better to give the report minimal coverage. Inciting public comment simply plays into the hands of those who would seek to exploit the story for their own political agendas in both Indonesia and Australia.
19 Nov 2013 1:06:18pm
Ghost of CP, I don't see why you are after the ABC on this one. They are reporting news. That's a good thing. I'm happy to see news reported. In what possible world is it good for news to not be reported? Some sort of tyrannical dictatorship, I suppose.
And this news is that Australia spies on top level Indonesians. This should not surprise anybody, but somehow it does. Hence we should all applaud Mr Snowden's work. He has reduced the level of ignorance both in Australia and Indonesia.
Now that we all know that Australia spies on Indonesia, what, if anything should we do about it? We know that it's bipartisan, because it started a long time ago, long enough for both major parties to be fully involved. We should not expect politicians from either major party to accept a reduction in Australian spying.
So, if we think spying is bad, or perhaps that some spying is bad and some is good, we need to press for more transparency so that we can know that Australia is not doing any of the bad spying, if such a thing exists.
My view is that spying on the heads of state of neighbours is precisely the good type of spying. We should know what they are thinking, and listening to what comes out of their mouths is as useful as listening to what comes out of our own Tony's mouth: it just rots your brain.
The bad sort of spying is the mass surveillance that Mr Snowden also revealed. That's useful for keeping the populace under control, and more appropriate in the aforementioned tyrannical dictatorships than a supposedly liberal democracy like Australia, the USA or Britain.
So, full marks to our shadowy friends for filling our embassies with spy gear. That's why we pay you. But no marks at all for snooping on all our private emails and web searches, our credit card purchases, our toll booth payments, our library usage and our political associations. You are working against your fellow man every time you snoop on an ordinary citizen. No good can come of that.
19 Nov 2013 2:21:47pm
So GOCP, you'd rather hide it, even though you rusted-on Libs can claim it was Rudd's fault because it happened in 2009?
This is a test for Abbott to try and diffuse a political stand-off with Indonesia and so far he failing big time!!
"all governments gather information"?
What an embarrassment Abbott is!!
Ghost of Christmas Present:
20 Nov 2013 8:19:06am
Dazza. i am not an LNP supporter and am agnostic when it comes to political parties except for the Greens who in my view are the patron saints of the feeble minded.
Henry the Moose:
19 Nov 2013 2:25:03pm
Sorry, Ghost. This is a democratic country with the freedom of the press and the belief that the people should be informed about what the government is doing with the money and power we give them.
The ABC is doing its job. It is screamingly hilarious that you appear to think that if the ABC did not have a discussion forum, Australians would simply not talk about it. Either you give Australians too little credit, or you give the ABC the credit for sparking all discussion and debate. Or, maybe you haven't heard of Twitter, Facebook, etc.
If you don't like public discussion of major issues, perhaps relocation to a one-party state with a propaganda machine would be more to your Tea Party, right-winger liking?
Frankly, I've just about had my fill of irrational, illogical arguments by rusted-on right wingers who want to bury the truth in their hypocrisy, and can't even pretend a modicum of even-handedness. Never seen anything like it before.
19 Nov 2013 8:45:04pm
Henry, if you've ever read the comments pages of the Huffington Post you will find the same extreme language from republican supporters and gun lobbyists.
19 Nov 2013 2:46:12pm
But Ghost, it is a good thing if it means less people travel to Bali, better for Australian tourism and if it can mean less Foreign Aid watsed on an enemy, then that too, provides economic benefit to Australia. Remember, the only positive effect on our economy from Indonesia is that buy our food. Well, with World food production not able to keep up with demand, I think we will find buyers for our food products without Indonesia. Of course, they could invade, but that is why we need to continue to spy on all our enemies and share that information with our Western Allies. As it would be the US we turn to if Indonesia ever decided to invade Australia. I want to see MORE coverage as I would like to see us eliminate Foriegn Aid and with leaders like SBY threatening "painful consequences", I believe anti-foreign aid sentiment gets (even) stronger. We do NOT need Indonesia like we need China, so tell them where to go, I say.
19 Nov 2013 6:36:24pm
"exploit the story for their own political agendas"
Ah you mean like Abbott and Morrison exploiting boat arrivals before the election?
What would you have said had the ABC not reported boat arrivals?
I see a disturbing trend of secrecy creeping into the running of this government.
Ckear Thinker:
19 Nov 2013 1:39:54pm
If the ABC was REPORTING the news then we would get the whole news.
This means we'd know when the Snowden leak was first given to someone (or some media outlet) and why it took so long to emerge.
Example; "In mid June Snowden gave the dirt to The Guardian in Britain which passed it on to Fairfax (and the ABC?) soon after, They decided to hold it back as it may have damaged Labor in the then-upcoming election. It was released instead at an appropriate time which we hoped would cause friction between Abbott and the Indos"
Since Snowden has already said he has released nothing since June, then the REAL STORY is who has been sitting on it so long, and why.
BTW. This IS the interesting part for anyone NOT an ALP operative. Something like the Watergate bizzo being small-potatoes compared to the "who knew what and when".
19 Nov 2013 1:41:31am
Can't really see how the ALP can get any mileage out of this current spy scandal as it occured mostly on their watch (2009). It I was them, I'd be keep well enough alone.
luke warm:
19 Nov 2013 6:57:28am
Nothing to do with Labor I'm afraid, it was released by Snowden. I guess you'd like to suppress the news to protect Abbott - just like the LNP are trying to do with asylum seeker news. And you were the mob screaming about 'freedom of the press' when in opposition. What a joke
Mark From Launceston:
19 Nov 2013 8:15:56am
" nothing to do with labor I'm afraid"
really??? Are you that rusted on? Your comments show how delusional the AL
And their supporters are.
The vast majority of this spying occurred on the ALPs watch.
Abbott has not even been PM 4 months.
I suggest you actually read the leak, which is easily downloaded on the internet. ( I suggest a simple google rather than blindly following any news source) . It is fairly clear when the spying occurred.
Another dumb tactic from the opposition.
First they keep the carbon tax as an issue
Then they try and fight on asylum seekers.
Now they stupidly vainly attempt to question the spying.
Look it really doesn't worry me one bit these tactics. Whoever though is the Alp " tactician " should be sacked ASAP.
Does the Alp actually want to be elected as the next government in the next 10 years or not ?
It has been interesting listening to former Alp ministers over the past couple of weeks basically saying they need to get the agenda off the carbon tax and off asylum seekers. They need to try and control the agenda ( as Abbot did so well when he was in opposition). So long as the Alp keep talking and opposing these issues, their vote will continue to fall.
I give Shorten one and half more years as opposition leader. The Alp members clearly did not want him and when the vote has no real boost he will be dumped
19 Nov 2013 9:39:30am
No one disputes that the intelligence gathering occurred in 2009 while Rudd was PM.
Do you contend that there was no spying prior to Rudd becoming PM and that the agencies conducting said intelligence gathering were started by Rudd?
Of course not and the intelligence gathering took place in all PMs time regardless of party.
The issue now is how Tony and Julie deal with Australia being dobbed in by Snowden. Tony is the PM now, not the ALP so it his issue to deal with.
It is very bad timing with the Indonesians in election mode and right wing Indonesian political parties playing the nationalist strategy not too dissimilar to what Tony himself played over the asylum seekers and painting Indonesia as the cause of all our problems.
Ol' China:
19 Nov 2013 9:41:59am
So Abbott can take the credit for a reduction in asylum seeker vessels but not the blame for a leak that Labor kept quiet for the following four years until they were voted out of office.
Make up your mind.
Julia's grovelling comment about being spied on with regard to Obama that made everyones skin crawl a month or so back may now have been money in the bank.
19 Nov 2013 9:55:12am
Good to hear from you again Mark. I am afraid however your contributions have not improved in content much. Good old blind Liberal support.
It hardly makes any difference whose watch the particular instance occurred it was probably still happening under Abbott, and probably reached as far back as Howard.
What remains now is to see how Indonesia's really really best friend Tony Abbot handles it.
You do not believe in global warming, and you do believe in turning back the boats. Well that is news!!
19 Nov 2013 11:42:49am
No let them keep such tacticians Mark ! Stay the course ALP, it's working oh so well for you...not. Next the shocking bias of our ABC and Fairfax ( their shares are doing so well !), Mr Scott before Estimates this week. Please explain !
luke warm:
19 Nov 2013 1:33:01pm
If you read my comment in context, you would see that it was a response to two previous comments blaming Labor for the news release. The 2009 phone bugging obviously happened when Labor was in power, but if you believe that we wern't spying on the Indos under the previous LNP government, you need to take a reality pill. If our spies weren't wathcing the Indos they were not doing their job and the LNP was incompetent for not making them do their job. The issue here is how the current government handles the situation. The initial response from Abbott (and you) of trying to blame Labor is juvenile - like pointing the finger at your little brother and saying "he did it". Hardly diplomatically sophisticated. Let's hope he does better next time, becaus the Indos aren't interested in who was in power when it happened; they want to know what the current government is going to do about it.
I'm not rusted on to any party - I believe democracy is best served by regular changes to the governing party. In fact I haven't voted Labor in ages, largely because I live in a safe Labor seat. However, it is amusing to see how these self proclaimed "grown ups" are struggling with this. Not surprising though, because Abbott himself spent from 2010 to 2013 behaving like a spoilt 2 year old.
19 Nov 2013 11:49:44am
Who cares who invented leaking? These days, everyone who does it is performing a public service, IMHO.
Poisonous Mushroom:
18 Nov 2013 11:28:22pm
Trev, you come across as very precious and protective of Abbott. But Abbott seemed to delight in every chance to talk down who gained government when he did not, so do you really think he deserves any less than he gave? But then I guess I was not born to govern and not done out of my birth-right by the Australian electors, like poor dear little Tony.
19 Nov 2013 8:44:02am
Peter, have you ever heard of red-herrings - you seem to be distributing some here.
The facts are that American NSA contractor, Edward Snowdon released this information into the public domain.
Had our media ignored it, we would have read about it or been informed by overseas media and the question then would have been: 'what's wrong with the Australian media, is it censored ?'
The take home message seems to be: if you have sensitive information you don't want to share, don't make it available to low level operatives like Snowdon or Manning.
19 Nov 2013 10:04:14am
Terry..how long did the Australian journo's who knew about this sit in this information ?
19 Nov 2013 1:10:16pm
"Had our media ignored it, we would have read about it or been informed by overseas media and the question then would have been: 'what's wrong with the Australian media, is it censored ?' "
No problem with the media reporting on it, but it would have been more useful if they reported on it when they knew about it - i.e. in June. Aussie media is not censored - well, except for Gillards intervention re: AWU slush fund investigations - but they are sure selective on the timing of release. This just makes our public broadcaster look biased.
19 Nov 2013 9:40:30pm
Nick & Cnicmo: The Guardian Australia have said that they only received this information in the last two days; they passed it to the ABC who, I understand consulted with the Department of Foreign Affairs and so far there is no evidence from DFAT that they asked for the story to be suppressed.
I agree that the flow of information is a bit unclear at the present and has been confounded by people like Andrew Bolt who immediately see a left wing conspiracy and blame the ABC for warehousing the story to damage the Abbott government .
Before we jump to conclusions let's wait until all of the information is available, hopefully on this site.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 9:47:35am
Trev, are you saying that Labor initiated the hacking of SBY's phone in 2009 just so that, in anticipation of Abbott 2013 election victory, they could use it to embarrass him?
Or are you saying that maybe Bill Shorten (or some other "faceless man" from the amorphous global "the left") is Edward Snowden's controller?
Don't you think it quite an elaborate and dangerous scheme for Labor (or your "the left") to undertake - to plant a spy in a US intelligence agency with possible connections to the Chinese or Russians, who would leak a whole load of documents that would cause immense embarrassment to US and British allies, and wait until just after an Abbott election victory to leak particular details about Australia's spying activities in Indonesia - all for the purpose of embarrassing Tony Abbott?
Sorry, but it sounds ridiculously far-fetched to me . . . and especially so given Tony Abbott appears perfectly capable of embarrassing himself with no help at all from others.
19 Nov 2013 11:44:35am
Er arrr your bloke is in the chair at the moment Trev in case you've forgotten. Remember the same bloke who infamously said s**t happens? Well this time s**t didn't happen to some poor sapper in Afghanistan; No this time s**t has happened to Tony Abbott. And you would have to question his ability to handle a diplomatic skirmish if yesterday's withdrawal of its ambassador and subsequent tweet from the Indonesian president is any guide.
"Saya juga menyayangkan pernyataan PM Australia yang menganggap remeh penyadapan terhadap Indonesia, tanpa rasa bersalah. *SBY*" S. B. Yudhoyono (@SBYudhoyono) November 18, 2013. This translates to "I also deeply regretted the Australia?s Prime Minister's statement which took lightly the tapping issue towards Indonesia, without feeling guilty."
A labor plot to embarass Abbott? BS
19 Nov 2013 2:38:06pm
Well said Mark and Scratcher.
Yep! The Liberal's conspiracy theories are beating loudly on The Drum now, aren't they?
What it all boils down to is that Abbott and diplomacy doesn't mix very well together, and that quote from President Yudhoyono says it all!
Thanks for that, Scratcher, you made my day! :-)
19 Nov 2013 11:48:28am
Oh for crying out loud! ALL governments spy on each other, it is perfectly normal behaviour. It has been going on forever and will never stop. Which ever political party is in office, no matter if it is left or right leaning, relies on its intelligence services to furnish them with information (gossip, if you will) about what the neighbours are up to. Please stop bleating about 'lefties' and 'righties' - it is utterly irrelevant.
What matters in this case is which country has access to the best technology and other resources to carry out spying and intelligence gathering operations. Perhaps Australia (with the help of the USA) is better equipped to spy on other governments (Indonesia for example), without their knowledge. The only way those spied upon know that this has/is happening is when leakers like Snowdon tell them so. Why they don't automatically assume this is taking place as a routine event, I just can't fathom. Perhaps they are simply naive and trusting? Frankly I am amazed that they are so angry, but I suppose the bluster is mainly for domestic consumption.
Your notion that hatred of Abbott is responsible for this debacle is demonstrably false. In fact, no one has to try too hard to embarrass him, he can do it very well on his own - with his previous travel rorts, failure to turn back the boats and so on.
19 Nov 2013 1:07:59pm
I can't quite recall who said it, but "in diplomacy, words are bullets". This was said in context of Abbott being a diplomatic lightweight and so it has come to pass. Yes, Australia spied on our neighbours and to have that out in the open is embarrassing, but how Australia responds is of utmost importance. Abbott has already stuffed up badly, and it is hurting our relationship with Indonesia. The man speaks without thinking and is always trying to diminish the seriousness of situations and find simplistic slogans to brush over complex issues. Australia is in a heck of a lot of trouble with this bloke in charge.
Clevedon Peer:
19 Nov 2013 2:27:50pm
Most 'adult' commentators would acknowledge that this sort of thing goes on all the time and across incumbent Governments - to start blaming the ALP is just as ridiculous as blaming the LNP for not commenting or giving re-assurances that it won't happen again. In this instance, it just so happens that the fall out has occurred on Abbott's watch - not his fault ( I believe the phrase is sh#t happens).
HOWEVER - what is interesting is the blow back from Indonesia and how Abbott plays it from here. Clearly a political move by the Indonesian Government to resonate with the home populous in the long lead up to a national election and one that potentially have serious repercussions on Abbott's 'Sovereign Boarders' policy. It is perhaps a direct flow on from the LNP's grandstanding leading up to and immediately after the election that has made them a easy target for some nationalist point scoring for the Indonesians. So Abbott can be blamed in part for the degree of blow back and will be blamed if his turn back the boat policy fails in the short term if he fails to make suitable noises of attrition. Just not too much to appear weak in the eyes of some of his own supporters back home in Australia. Does he have the intelligence and lightness of touch to achieve this? - frankly, I doubt it.
19 Nov 2013 2:33:27pm
And can we please stop giving them billion in Foriegn Aid now? And maybe spend that on needy Australians, instead of on those who wish "painful consequences" on us. A word of advice, if we stopped going to Bali in droves, they cannot exact those "painful consequences" on us.
19 Nov 2013 3:19:25pm
Trev - Tony is in record in Parliament this afternoon as repeating the line that everyone "gathers information" and everyone knows it. More so "we use all our resources ... to help our friends and allies not to harm them".
Two things ... if he didn't own the issue because of the time the event is reported to have occurred, he sure does now.
And ... in just what bucket does Indonesia fit given that spying on their President is deemed to "help our friends and allies". Is Indonesia NOT a friend and ally or do we doubt the President individually. Of course the real answer is "keep your friends close and your enemies closer".
I really don't think the Indonesians are going to let this pass without some payback
18 Nov 2013 8:02:15pm
Check what?
Nothing in this article that hasn't reached our ears or been suspected long ago?
Every government has issues thrust upon them by actions of previous government and general circumstances.
The only question is what does this government do at this point in time.
Do they have the skill to deal with the problem?
18 Nov 2013 8:47:49pm
darn: Very partisan all of a sudden because you know this is a Labor legacy.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 9:56:43am
gbe, I'd say it was a legacy of the massive increase in intelligence gathering operations that occured under the Howard government following 9/11, Bali and the London bombings.
This from The Age on October 17, 2005, for instance:
"Mr Howard said the boost for the domestic security agency followed recommendations made by Allan Taylor, former director-general of the Australian Secret Intelligence Service"
And on ASIO resources:
"By 2001 the number of staff had dropped to 584, with a budget of $62.9 million. The September 11 terrorist attacks changed that and numbers began to climb. ASIO now has 980 personnel and a budget of $171.7 million in 2005-06. By 2010 staff numbers will be 1860, with the addition of $500 million over the next four years."
The increased resources, incidentally, not only had bipartisan support, but Labor complained that the increases were not happening sooner.
19 Nov 2013 10:02:02am
gbe: There is some value in being bi partisan. You should try it some time. You are being partisan. How do you know what was reported was not a left over of Howard. Well you don't!
19 Nov 2013 12:09:23pm
Tom1: I do know actually and so would you if you listened Howard was not in office in 2009.
19 Nov 2013 1:34:38pm
Trying to "blame" a Government(of whatever stripes) for spying is stupid. You either believe in intelligence gathering or you don't. You either agree with tapping the phone or you don't.
Which government the spying occurred under is irrelevant. However, any time it falls over it is up to the Government of the day to handle it. That happens to be the coalition atm. You can blame labor all you want, it won't help Tony in his dealings with Indonesia.
Everyone knows this crap goes on, it it like 'cheating' spouses in a loveless marriage. Both can have all their affairs they want as long as none of it gets aired in public, because that is embarrassing for others to know.
19 Nov 2013 10:04:43am
The incidents in question happened on Labor's watch. It is unlikely in the extreme that such activities ONLY happened on Labor's watch. And does anyone seriously think Indonesia isn't doing the same to us?
Given the importance that the Indonesian culture places on saving face, they have no choice but to puff out their chests. Perhaps both governments should have private talks, whereupon both parties declare "Well I won't if you won't", announce that an agreement has been reached, then carry on as normal.
18 Nov 2013 8:22:20pm
The national newspaper you refer to, the Australian is a Murdoch owned newspaper. You mean to tell me they did'nt check the facts!
Hudson Godfrey:
18 Nov 2013 8:51:33pm
Check? Because if we ask nicely they might tell us! And yes of course Edward Snowdon releasing information via the Guardian in the UK was somehow taking time out from blowing the whistle on the NSA systematically spying on its own people and almost everyone else to specifically upset Abbott's apple cart!? And the Aussie media are the ignorant ones......
18 Nov 2013 9:41:16pm
It's all designed to spite and embarrass the Abbott government. They (ABC and other media) don't like the election outcome,they'll do anything to undermine this new government.
luke warm:
19 Nov 2013 7:03:04am
So when the Australian reports the same unsubstantiated rumour about Gillard 5 times it's freedom of the press - but when the media publishes something you think harms Abbott it's a left wing plot.
Still I guess you wouldn't be paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get you. It's time the grown ups grew up and realised that when in government, you take the heat.
19 Nov 2013 8:53:53am
If it wasn't designed to destabilise the government, the ABC would be making it plain that this action was taken in 2009 when the labor party held power. Not that you'd realise this listening to anything on the ABC.
19 Nov 2013 9:29:34am
No Andy - you must be listening to a different ABC. The reporting I have heard clearly places the timing in the Labour years. But don't let that get in the way of your paranoia
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 10:07:20am
Andy, so you don't think the ABC should be reporting a story which is already in the public domain? A story which has potential ramifications for Australia's relations with its nearest neighbour?
Perhaps you would prefer the media model they used to have in the old Soviet Union, where the only stories which get reported are the stories the government want reported?
19 Nov 2013 10:24:10am
Read the whole article Andy
"Let's not kid ourselves: this has been going on since Philip Ruddock was in short pants."
Does this mean it is all Labor's fault? I think not.
19 Nov 2013 11:55:31am
Funny when it broke yesterday it was actually plain that it was in 2009 , but hey dont let it stop you making bias claimes
luke warm:
19 Nov 2013 1:36:30pm
Yeah, and you wouldn't be paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get you. If you seriously believe that we didn't spy on the Indos when the LNP was in power, you are also deluded. Time to "grow up" - your lot are inpower, they have to deal with this
19 Nov 2013 2:11:52pm
You're misunderstanding the situation, Luke.
It might be Abbott's problem to deal with. But that doesn't stop it from being Labor's fault.
Losing the last election does not absolve Labor from responsibility for their past decisions in Government. They can and should be blamed for this. In fact, Labor's culpability may be the ticket to solving this problem.
I can just see it now: Abbott apologises for the devious actions committed by the previous Labor government. Indonesia accepts. Both parties save face. Labor is the scapegoat, and voters will remember how they caused a diplomatic crisis with our strongest neighbour.
Perfect solution. Wouldn't you say?
Where's Tony:
19 Nov 2013 10:57:23pm
Please tell me what you know that no one else does. Yes the date given was 2009 but are you seriously suggesting that this behaviour didn't happen before that.
Spying is what we and every other Government on the planet does. Having the technology that is now available has upped the ante. We spy on our friends all the time, we got caught, we look like fools, we should apologise and get back to business. Life, like spying goes on.
19 Nov 2013 12:26:52pm
That's a big chip chip sitting on your shoulder Rob. Understably though, I mean, it does come as a bit of a blow when you realise that your man is actually is not up to the task.
Rest easy, a DD election is literally months away.
19 Nov 2013 4:54:19pm
First of all there will be no double dissolution and secondly Tony Abbott is more than up to the task.
What a refreshing change after six years of Labor turmoil,now we have someone that can take a decisive decision.
Adelaide Rose:
18 Nov 2013 11:06:10pm
Why the hell would the Abbott government believe that they should have the right to withhold almost all information from the Australian people?
Abbott needs to understand that in the absence of information from the government the media will source the information from elsewhere. When that happens, the government's warts (and there are many) will be highlighted every time.
19 Nov 2013 8:58:48am
The exact same reason the Labor goverment did!
18 Nov 2013 11:51:12pm
My apologies I cited the Australian when I meant to say the Age
19 Nov 2013 2:49:25pm
You should be proud of yourself, pete?
You certainly started a hornet's nest of Liberal conspiracy theories!
My cap goes off to you!!
19 Nov 2013 1:34:55am
That out of touch are we? There's this new thing called the internet now, allows for the flow of all sorts of useful information, you should check it out some time. As for making things too hard for our new prime minister, too bad, didn't somebody once say "life wasn't meant to be easy"?
19 Nov 2013 9:01:01pm
yes matt, one of Tony's bigger critics, Malcolm Fraser made that comment.
19 Nov 2013 4:53:23am
It wasn't the Australian that reported on this: The Australian is owned by Murdoch whose phone hackers are the best in the business. They are probably laughing themselves silly at the bumbling Australian intelligence networks pathetic attempt at phone hacking. The previous government should have outsourced their phone monitoring out to Newscorp. It would have been cheaper and would have delivered much better results.
In the real world though Australia has been involved in electronic monitoring for decades under all types of governments. Remember Pine Gap, exposed all those years ago as an American controlled listening post. We've been at it for years so nothing has changed.
There is no harm being done by the ABC or any other media outlets reporting the facts. The truth has been out there ever since Snowdon released his ill gotten trove of secrets. So it would have come out sooner or later. In any event it is good to see that some of our MSN outlets can do proper investigative journalism and report the facts without political distortion.
The Abbott government now owns the political mess this has caused and they can be judged on how they handle the fallout with Indonesia. All the bleating and blaming others counts for nothing. It's up to Tony and Julie to sort this out and how they react might just give us an insight into just how good they are.
19 Nov 2013 10:12:40am
Trevor. A sensible account at last.
19 Nov 2013 2:51:02pm
Agree Tom!
Well done Trevor!!
19 Nov 2013 3:26:04pm
Why do you imply that Abbott needs to "handle it". We should keep spying (especially after the threats of "painful consequences"). I would also place expel the Indonesian Ambassador, cease all Foreign Aid and place our military on high alert. If they want to take revenge just because we spy, let them. Just make sure we (along with our Allies) can defend ourselves from an Indonesian invasion. We had every right to spy ever since the Bali bombings and for as long as many of our fellow Australians want to travel there, we should continue to gather intelligence to prevent any further incidents of Indonesians murdering Australians.
Where's Tony:
19 Nov 2013 11:03:33pm
Yep, rattle a few sabres, kill a few million, spend a trillion or so on another Liberal war. Great idea.
On the other hand an apology might settle things down.
Tough choice.
We all spy, always have, always will, it's a pretty well established means of staying ahead of the game.
19 Nov 2013 10:07:29pm
I doubt it was bumbling. They were never caught and only exposed by a leak from the US. We also don't know how successful they were in this instance. Snowden may not have had access to all the information.
In fact there is some indication that ASIS may have successfully bugged the Malaysian Cabinet room.
It would be a lot more concern if we weren't gathering information about these countries.
20 Nov 2013 7:46:01am
Yes they will handle it just fine. And No it was against the Australian Governments interest to release this story. One wonders since they had this information since July why it was suddenly released now after a change in government. The agendas are despicable and these fools think the Australian public cant see though these childish socialist machinations of the ABC. Overtime since we sold off this behemoth and realised the tax burden to other more useful things.
hugh mungus:
19 Nov 2013 7:13:55am
Of course news media should always check with the government before running stories that could be embarrassing, so the "Ministry for Information" can suppress them. You know, just like Labor suppressed the 4 Corners story on cruelty to live exports - oh wait they didn't. Just like the media held back all those stories on Rudd's leadership challenges.
I though you lot were 'grown ups'. Real adults deal with the problems they face, not cast around trying to blame someone else
19 Nov 2013 8:51:37am
And why the (expletive deleted) aren't the ABC making it plain that the allegations refer to spying in 2009 when their beloved ALP and Kevni were in charge. The way it is being trumpeted across the media you'd readily get the (incorrect) impression that the wrath of Indonesia was directed at actions taken by the coalition government.
19 Nov 2013 10:21:12am
Andy: You mean you would" get the impression". Most people know that Labor was in power in 2009. This is hardly the point. It remains to be seen how the current PM handles it. Do you want Julia Gillard to come back and show him how it is done.
If you were to be more factual it probable should be Alex. Downer's job.
Your implication that the same things are not happening under the Coalition Government is fairly indicative of what intelligent contributors to the Drum pave to put up with.
Chris L:
19 Nov 2013 11:10:39am
@Andy, it was at ABC news that I read about the phone tapping beginning in 2009.
Your eagerness to find a left wing conspiracy in the ABC has led you astray.
By the way, what should the media do with news if not print it?
19 Nov 2013 2:56:23pm
I feel a bit of pressure coming on, Andy?
Is this how real "adults" deal with these situations?
Time for Tony to change his diplomatic tact!
If he can finally let go of his pride, that is?
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 9:30:34am
Peter, The Australian has made it quite clear (editorial, Nov 11) that it would prefer the information to remain secret, and that the media organisations who are daring to keep the public informed on such matters are essentially akin to al-Qaide and the Kremlin.
Apparently, freedom of information, freedom of speech and the free press are only worthwhile causes if they are being utilised in the service of, and with the approval of, Rupert.
19 Nov 2013 10:58:53am
Peter, you have missed the point here.
Spying on any country that we are not at war with is wrong.
As an Australian taxpayer, who funds this unnecessary exercise, I was not asked if it was a good idea.
Spying for another country, e.g. U.S.A is also wrong.
It's time to stop this unnecessary spying.
This is not the USA and we, as Australians should not be supporting this intelligence gathering.
Our government should be removing this spy network and ignore the paranoia of the USA.
This should also be done in a visible way so that all countries can see that we are serious.
19 Nov 2013 10:09:32pm
America wasn't at war with Japan for most of 1941 - maybe a little more spying would have been a good thing in light of the results.
19 Nov 2013 11:47:43am
ABC and Fairfax - what a surprise! Both organisations are finding it impossible to accept the democratic will of the people and want desperately for the worst government in Australia's history to be back in power.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 9:16:52pm
"Both organisations are finding it impossible to accept the democratic will of the people"?
That's weird, Roger. I haven't heard anybody from either Fairfax or the ABC demand an election or question the legitimacy of the elected government. However, from 2010 to 2013, I do remember the Coalition and News Corp demanding elections and questioning the legitimacy of the elected government pretty much every day.
Maybe there's some weird guilt/blame transference going on here where you imagine other people are doing now what your people did then?
19 Nov 2013 12:23:23pm
Nothing much changes here does it?
Just the same ol left right slugfest.
A bit depressing not being able to see a bit of dispassionate chat.
19 Nov 2013 12:54:37pm
Ah Peter it's called democracy and a free press, I don't know about you but I don't want to live in a police state because it would be convenient for the Abbott government
This happens under Australian governments of both political persuasions but if it calms your nerves any please go ahead and blame Kevin, he's gone so he probably won't care
20 Nov 2013 7:22:46am
ABC's Political bias is Treasonable! Such arrogance! They should be shut down!This is not Freedom of the Press! Just a total disregard for our Country and our newly elected Prime Minister.You should be ashamed of your actions! This is not a football team you are defending!. Did You bother to Think what the repercussions would have been between Indonesia and Australia,,,,Or were they your sole intended Purpose??
18 Nov 2013 7:15:08pm
The whole reason for making heroes of your Snowdens and Assanges is when their leaks embarrass conservative Governments.
These latest leaks heap the embarrassment on the previous ALP Govt.
Suddenly I have had a chnage of heart about Snowden. Is Guantanamo closed yet?
18 Nov 2013 7:45:17pm
And the Howard government as well Esteban.
The real problem is how they move forward. Abbott and Bishop lack the diplomacy skills to manage this I'm afraid.
Waterloo Sunset. 2014:
18 Nov 2013 9:29:41pm
" Abbott and Bishop lack the diplomacy skills to manage this I'm afraid."
Another dopey unsupported assertion. Completely contradicted in The ABC publication of Thom Woodroofe's article here: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-15/woodroofe-spy-scandal-brings-out-bishops-best/5094488
I think that his credentials outweigh an anonymous poster, who regularly makes sweeping unsupported and meaningless generalisations.
But, hey to give you a fair chance to back up your assertion, tell this forum why you think that Thom Woodroofe could be wrong and that you could be right.
Go for it.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 10:13:46am
Oh my, it's so confusing WS. You've got an army of bloggers insisting, without a shred of evidence, that details of the hacking are simply the ABC's attempt to embarrass the Coalition government, and now you're defending the Coalition government by citing an article on the ABC.
Surely the ABC can't be both good and evil, presenting content that could be said to cast a government in a bad light as well as a good light?
Waterloo Sunset. 2014:
19 Nov 2013 11:04:24am
It isn't balanced.
The article (Woodroofe's) was not written by The ABC, but all of the headlines were.
On The 24 hour ABC news, the headline was relentless and repetitive, always coming first as "breaking news", despite it being old hat. It was obvious an agenda.
Whichever announcer was chosen. They trumpeted, "The ABC and The Guardian have jointly found these secret documents (that we want to hector the government with)" .
I've always understood your partisanship, Mark, however, in this case I see no purpose served in shooting our selves in the foot, by manufacturing a rift.
If you see it differently, please explain?
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 1:13:51pm
WS, I think you'll find that 'breaking news' headlines always come first. It's the nature of them. In addition, they tend to come first until such time as other breaking news takes their place.
What 'breaking news' would you have had the ABC replace the spying allegations with, given the allegations are headlining in Indonesia today and throughout Australian (even the Murdoch press are deigning to mention it)?
Seriously, can you imagine if Indonesia hacked the phones of Tony Abbott and Margie, or Julia Gillard and Tim Mathieson. That wouldn't be news worth reporting?
As for "manufacturing a rift", the flip-side is that news and information should be censored if the authorities deem that it will cause a potential rift, and that The Guardian and the ABC should not report news which may cause potential difficulties with officials from other nations.
Also, I'm not sure what your perception of my partisanship has to do with anything? Does perceiving partisanship (whether it exists or not) act like a silver bullet, whereby, whatever the merits or not of the debating point or a counter-arguments, you can simply shoot all opposing opinions dead simply by firing the shot?
"Yes, you may say that 2 + 2 = 4, but given you're a partisan leftie with a penchant for protecting the environment, your calculations MUST be wrong."
Waterloo Sunset. 2014:
19 Nov 2013 2:17:59pm
I think that you're being a tad mischievous.
There's a difference between reporting and relentless trumpeting. I though that I had made that clear.
Plus, of course one would think that being funded by the taxpayer, more discretion should be observed in our National interest.
ASS Andrew Wilkie said the other day, it's our own privacy that we should be worried about.
And, if you want my unsolicited opinion, I think that a taxpayer funded national broadcaster should be subject to mandatory protocols where the taxpayer is getting its government disadvantaged in any d?tente!
It's unhelpful and counter productive, for the taxpayer.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 3:16:07pm
I guess one person's trumpeting is another person's reporting, WS.
As for being taxpayer funded, I would have thought that in itself gave the ABC more of an obligation to serve its stakeholders and not simply the government of the day.
The corporate media is perfectly free, for instance, to serve the government of the day if serving the government of the day provides the best returns for its stakeholders (shareholders). However, the ABC is under an legal obligation to its stakeholders (the Australian people), regardless of how those obligation might inconvenience one government or another.
19 Nov 2013 12:16:14pm
Pretty sure I made that observation on the article itself.. I thought it was a pretty lightweight conclusion.
19 Nov 2013 6:28:50pm
"Another dopey unsupported assertion." Your abuse has no bounds WS.
Lets look at Abbott's sorry tour of Asia shall we, everybody's mate. "Insert Country Here" is Australia's best friend. You know as well as I do that SBY has lost face here. He's not happy. What does Abbott so with it, well it's just a minor irritant to him.
Compare Cameron in Sri Lanka to Abbott.
Let's look at Bishop, she's wooden abroad. In Bali she lacked sensitivity in what she was wearing.
You keep arguing in a vacuum.
18 Nov 2013 10:02:00pm
Well we will just see Algernon.They will probably handle it with the same aplomb they they have handled Labours budget and climate tax stuffups.
19 Nov 2013 9:31:26am
Ahhh ... doing nothing seems to be the new "action" plan, EVAN
19 Nov 2013 7:09:15am
I agree Algernon. Abbott and Bishop are like 2 kids in a lolly shop not being able to decide what they want and interrupting the whole shop goofing around. Both of them have about as much diplomacy as a 5 year old child does.
Just look what Bishop wore to Indonesia. A skin tight grey suit! The pants would have been a no no for Indonesian men for a start!
You don't see Indonesian women wearing pants suits, nor will you ever see it. When in Indonesia Julie, do what the Indonesian women do otherwise it is an insult to their religion.
Mark From Launceston:
19 Nov 2013 8:21:32am
Your facts to backup your childish rant are!
The Coalition has had far more success over the years with Idonesian than the Alp.
Ask the people of East Timor.
Rather than bending over like Keating, Hawke, Fraser and Whitlam, Howard actually showed you do not need to be the Indonesian lap dog.
You get no respect by bending over, but then you don't have to out right insult them like the Alp did with the live Cattle trade.
How about you base some things on facts rather than a childish rant?
19 Nov 2013 2:06:03pm
Ask the East Timorese about the $50 billion Greater Sunrise oil & gas project, a condition of our "help"
19 Nov 2013 10:31:12pm
Have travelled to Indonesia several times Aja. Indonesia is an extremely multicultural country and the dress style varies across the country and regions. There is a lot of "western style" dress amongst men and women including jeans, tee-shirts, business suits for both men and women, high heels, lippy, rada rada.
You are mistaking Indonesia for Iran perhaps? Even so, the dress code in Iran is much more relaxed these days. Did you know that there was an effort to ban jeans-wearing for women in Australia in the 1960's? They were considered an outrage!
Ms Bishop's course cheque-book "diplomacy" might be offensive but the business suits she wears would not be at all remarkable.
18 Nov 2013 8:05:05pm
Estaban you are na?ve to think that the surveillance of the Indonesian government only started under the past Labor government.
It all comes down to having close ties with the USA, Canada, New Zealand and Britain.
18 Nov 2013 8:31:21pm
The point I was trying to make is that the greatest support for Snowden and Assange has come from the left. A generalisation I agree but a good one I think.
These leakers are held in the highest regard from the left when the leaks embarrass the right. It seems such fun at the time.
There may well have been spying under Howard. That is not the point. These specific leaks embarrass the Rudd and hence the left. Suddenly leakers are not as much fun under these circumstnaces.
18 Nov 2013 8:50:25pm
Your point is well made the lefties would be screaming blue murder if the could pin this on the coalition. Labor guilty as charged.
18 Nov 2013 10:22:43pm
What embarrassment? Both sides of politics were involved in spying on Indonesia.
You wrongly assume things. I'm a Labor supporter and I never supported government leaks. I understand that it is part of governing.
THE question is how the supposed adults of the LNP handle this situation. so far Abbott has shown as much diplomatic finesse as a rock through a window.
18 Nov 2013 10:42:38pm
So, Esteban,
You love government secrecy. You love them listening to your own mobile phones, don't you?
Whistle-blowers are heroes, not traitors.
We are slaves to the only country in the world who has been charged and convicted of international terrorism by the world court:
The United States of Amnesia.
19 Nov 2013 1:24:19pm
I am not happy that your hero, US citizen Snowden, is the sole arbiter of which information the Australian Government gets to keep secret and which must be made public.
I have a preference for Australian citizens who have been trained and are subject to public service protocols having an input on these decisions.
Billy Bob Hall:
19 Nov 2013 3:16:32pm
"If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear" ! :-)
18 Nov 2013 11:26:48pm
And yet the only person I can see having a sad over it here is you, (presumably) from the right, for the purposes of accusing the left of hypocrisy.
Ignoring for the moment that the contemporary Labor Party is actually center-Right, the whole my-opponents-are-hypocrites charge doesn't really work when it's you putting your words in their mouths.
19 Nov 2013 1:28:39am
what on Earth are you blathering about? left or right I couldn't care less, the object is to embarrass any government because all politicians are as bad as each other. That used to be taken for granted as a universal truth in this country, it's disappointing that nowadays it has to be spelled out.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 10:31:12am
Of course, Estaban, why would the totalitarian right be supportive of transparency, freedom of information, a free press and free speech?
Much better for a quietly authoritarian government to simply hide itself behind a cloak of secrecy while expecting those who pay for it to simply "trust us".
It seems the entitled right like the kind of freedom through which Andrew Bolt vilifies and attacks members of the public with "significant distortions of fact", but not the kind of freedom which informs the hoi polloi what governments are doing in their name, and with their money.
19 Nov 2013 3:17:18pm
Whilst I would agree that a totalitarian state would have had appeal to K Rudd (subject to K Rudd being leader) I would hardly call him right wing.
States should have a right to kee some things secret.
Some things should be made public such as:
Plans to sack 14,000 public servants after the elction
reports that show the NBN is going to result in a loss
Reports that warn that the boats will resume if the Pacific solution is unwound
Chris L:
19 Nov 2013 11:22:56am
I still have high regard for both Snowden and Assange. They show courage standing in defiance of the currently most powerful government in the world.
If it embarrasses "left wing" governments (as Grasshopper correctly points out, Labor is right wing, just not as right wing as the Coalition) that's all fair too.
I'm also fine with pointing out that the Obama administration instituted a policy of "dob on your workmates" in their agricultural offices.
Point out wrong doing regardless of who did it or when. It's a necessary part of striving for a better world.
18 Nov 2013 8:07:02pm
The wikileak cables hurt international diplomatic relations. These relationships thrive on trust, confidentiality and confidence.
My initial instinct was to support Assange but after much thought I've come to the conclusion much of what he released did nothing but hurt relationships between governments. It wasn't information we needed in the public realm. Sure he released some stuff like the chopper attack, that I feel should be on out on the public realm but like I said many of those cables were useless and designed to embarrass the US.
Knowing what Obama thinks of Benjamin Netanyahu doesn't help anyone but it certainly hurts the relationship.
I supported the initial Snowden leaks, mass surveillance programs are useful when gathering meta data, but the US crossed the line from what I gather when they essentially listening in on everything on the internet.
But I don't support Snowdens' recent leaks for example about Indonesia because both governments spy on each other, both Indonesia and Australia have specialist spy agencies and you'd have to be pretty gullible to think otherwise. Same with the German chancellor.
18 Nov 2013 10:46:03pm
So it's okay for some things to be leaked, but you don't like the fact that Australia is involved in spying as well?
Welcome to the world of total secrecy.
What Snowden and Assange has done is not much different than those whistle-blowers who exposed the Katholic church's child abuse stories.
When the governments' darkness is exposed to the light, only those with something to fear hates it being displayed for the world to see their perfidity.
Adelaide Rose:
18 Nov 2013 11:12:43pm
So, you only support leaks as long as the leaks support your personal point of view, or your favoured governments/figures?
19 Nov 2013 8:31:48am
What it shows it why it's illegal to release state secrets.
Because then you have every single person taking the decision themselves on what to release, the system would completely break down, hence the control on information.
If it's true, moral dilemma stuff, like I said I typically agree.
Take a look a back a bit on the previous big leaks in US history, I don't think many would argue these shouldn't have happened.
The pentagon papers and watergate spring to mind, PRISM leaks will no doubt go down in history as something of public importance, but the leak with regards to what Obama thinks of a certain PM, who cares! The gossip about the French PM, or what some low level bureaucratic thinks is irrelevant and only hurts international diplomacy.
19 Nov 2013 12:14:11am
Openness and transparency is the backbone of western democracies. WikiLeaks is a great initiative to keep the policy makers honest. Hiding things only serves to make life easy for incompetent and corrupt officials
James from Bray Park:
19 Nov 2013 9:11:37am
The Wikileaks revelations, same as those by Ed Snowden, did zero harm to anyone other than the criminals who run the U.S. intelligence machine, whilst dishonestly hiding behind the term 'national security', and childish politicians who had been badmouthing other equally childish politicians. They all just need to grow up and stop the slide back to the government oppression of hundreds of years ago.
18 Nov 2013 7:17:11pm
Could somebody at the ABC please tell me why the ABC, FairFax and the Guardian want to damage Australia's relationship with Indonesia so badly, it is so so damaging, immature and spiteful.
This has nothing to do with Abbott but he needs to have an inquiry into the ABC over this and some off the other items it has been banging on about of late.
Even the Asylum issue, there has been a massive reduction in Boats risking the journey, I haven't heard of one reported death since September but all the ABC and Fairfax can bang on about is the so called secrecy, well instead of your reporters, Cassidy, Green and co being hand feed daily press releases that the previous Government wanted circulated, it might time to go and investigate and do some Journalistic work for a change, jump on a plane and fly to Darwin, where ever and find out whats going on... bludgers. Not hearing about boats day in and day out is the best thing the Government has thought of.
18 Nov 2013 7:46:38pm
Pop funnily enough this is called democracy and freedom of speech. Best not to get to get worked up with mock outrage
18 Nov 2013 8:37:09pm
Journalists are free to say what they please. Let them speak as much as they like.
But if they obtain state secrets and disclose them without authority, they should be convicted and jailed. Freedom of speech doesn't extend to espionage or treason.
19 Nov 2013 8:02:41am
That is a perfect post, straight to the core truth of the matter. It's a democracy but ever since the dawn of civilization and cities no state ever tolerated treason and espionage against that said nation and the penalty was always death, spies who failed to avoid detection were executed, in recent centuries by firing squad, before that a far worse fate and every single spy knew the rules of the game and accepted their fate as the price of failure.
Now we have lunatics who think their right to know something is worth the lives of a some soldiers or the loss of our citizens lives due to a military secret being leaked. Of course someone should be jailed for a few decades for that.
19 Nov 2013 12:55:12pm
No one's life has been endangered by this dislosure. Calm yourself. It's neither a military operation.
19 Nov 2013 2:24:15pm
Since the result of the leaks is to damage our relationship with Indonesia, I'd argue that the leaks put the population of the entire continent at risk. Insignificantly, perhaps. But also undeniably.
Australia has been harmed by these leaks, with no tangible benefit in return. At the very least, those who are responsible for the leaks have demonstrated that they are a threat to the country and our interests.
The only real question is how much more damage those people are capable of causing and whether they should be punished for their actions against the nation.
19 Nov 2013 3:57:14pm
Shooting the messenger because you don't like the truth??
If our intell agencies were good at their job, non of us, including Snowden, would be any the wiser about their activities..perhaps your anger would be better directed to those agencies who were so amateurish that they were unable to obscure and hide their work effectively. I believe that any agency that so impinges upon the soveriegnty of another nation to the extent that they believe it right and neccessary to eavesdrop on the calls of foreign leaders , they deserve everyuthing that's coming to them if caught!
The appalling and pathetic attempt to attack the credibility of the messenger (Snowden) further disgraces the agencies caught with their pants down..they are not one bit upset about the nature of their activities but angry as hell that they've been caught!
Truly disgraceful!
19 Nov 2013 5:16:40pm
If a burglar breaks into your house, they deserve to be punished. The fact they helped expose a flaw in your security system is not a "favour", nor is it a reason to waive their punishment.
Snowden stole classified information and released it without permission. The fact he exposed a flaw in intelligence security does not excuse him from punishment.
Snowden's actions have damaged our relationship with Indonesia. The fact you support his actions is the true disgrace here, because it implies that you also support the damage he caused.
19 Nov 2013 5:38:02pm
Snowden has broken no law here in Australia...and the documents he "Stole" reveal the extent to which intel orgs have been over reaching. You are clearly supportive of their over reach..so long as "The truth is hidden" from "We the people".
You are putting the cart before the horse - the problem wasn't created because Snowden told us of it, the problem exists because of the over reach of the intell orgs. Snowden has simply told what time of day it is and you're angry as hell that we, as a nation have been implicated in what is an intell scandal of monumental proportions.
If you were truly concerned about Australias relationship with Indonesia you'd be asking why it is we are spying on our freinds and allies...instead your anger is reserved for the informant! Not only disgraceful but hypocritical.
If one of your close friends started eaves dropping on your line and a work colleague of his informed you of such..would you be more concernecd with the breach of trust that exists between those two or the fact that you're privacy has been impinged upon with your knoweldge or consent?
Got it now??
19 Nov 2013 7:31:39pm
Snowden's actions have caused a breakdown in our relationship with Indonesia and harmed our nation's interests.
Since you clearly support his actions, further debate is pointless. Your position regarding Australia's interests is now quite apparent.
A happy little debunker:
18 Nov 2013 9:20:36pm
So Algernon,
Why the pronounced reticence of Mr Michael Brissenden to articulate how this information came to him?
It is undoubt-ably linked to Snowdon, but who raised it directly with Brissenden?
Not saying there is a consipiracy, but it does raise some questions as to his stated reticence.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 10:44:20am
ahld, you've not heard of journalists protecting their sources? It's a pretty basic tenet of news reporting.
19 Nov 2013 6:45:29am
So why wasn't this information released before the election in the interest of 'freedom of speech'? Did someone wait for the change of government before kicking the hornets nest?
Pragmatic prince:
19 Nov 2013 8:42:29am
Gee Algernon, when Julia Gillard intervened to have two journalists sacked because they were talking about something she didn't like, you cheered.
Why do you support democracy and freedom of speech now when previously you sneered at it?
Or are you selective as to what should or should not be reported depending on who is wearing the heat?
18 Nov 2013 8:01:26pm
Well said, Pop !
It is totally confounding that certain media organisations (and politicians) are hell-bent on trying to shame us. What happened to our national pride and dignity and, not least, self-respect ?
So, with these matters of delicacy, just shut up already, for goodness sakes and go fly a kite !!!!
18 Nov 2013 8:41:47pm
Pot calling the kettle black there!
18 Nov 2013 8:07:55pm
Pop are you telling me that you don't want the media to report on things that the Indonesian's already know so that you don't feel uncomfortable?
If you want to blame someone I'd start with Howard and his desire to be the lap dog of the USA.
Every government has issues to deal with. The Abbott government has this issue and will have many more. If they aren't up to the job then they should just quit.
18 Nov 2013 8:54:41pm
That comment darn only suits your agenda, it is not in the best interests of the nation, time to grow up and the nation before your ideology.
18 Nov 2013 10:08:06pm
"The Abbott government has this issue and will have many more. If they aren't up to the job then they should just quit."
Oh they are up to the job they are used to getting a S$%T sandwich from Labor.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 10:50:57am
EVAN, it's funny to see how the government of "no excuses" are setting about blaming everybody else for everything: Labor for Hockey's decision to raise the debt ceiling; Indonesia and the media for not stopping the boats; Labor and the media for deteriorating relations with Indonesia; Treasury for Hockey's stupid surplus promises . . . and so on.
Maybe they should re-think the self-applied moniker and call themselves, instead, the Coalition of Nothing But Excuses?
18 Nov 2013 8:40:57pm
"I haven't heard of one death.." - Oh well then......
The problem is you've not heard anything have you?
If a tree falls in a forest but nobody witnesses it - does it make a sound?
Poisonous Mushroom:
18 Nov 2013 8:59:15pm
So Pop you want a dictatorship? This is just one of the consequences of an incompetent incoming government with ministers not up to the job, and of Abbott's policy of no responsibility, no accountability and no consequences not being accept by some other nations and a fair proportion of Australians.
I think you will find there is a lot more to come as others also stand up to Abbott and co.
19 Nov 2013 8:48:55am
Pop's right. With the exception of a few papers in this country it seems that the mainstream media, with its collective irrational and unprofessional hatred of right wing political parties, is intent on beating this up as much as possible and doing as much damage as possible to our relationship with our nearest neighbour.
19 Nov 2013 9:36:07am
JohnM - I believe the mainstream media has heavily favoured Abbott and Co leading into the election. I suppose it depends on your viewpoint doesn't it.
Point is that the Coalition IS in power now and need to deal with this. Or should we reinstall the Labour party so they can "own" it?
Ckear Thinker:
19 Nov 2013 2:13:46pm
Elvis (9.43am) You are correct. Whilst we bloggers (armchair warriors?) rant and rave, the actual adults are on it behind the scenes.
When it was the ALP in a pickle, we got the famous "Those Chinese are Ratf*ckers", but now we get a quiet adult approach.
The disappointment for blogger Luvvies will be the same disappointment as for ABC and Fairfax Luvvies. It will be all forgotten by next week.
Another Pop:
18 Nov 2013 10:02:07pm
Go Pop, the ABC will be over the moon embarrassing a conservative Government and enhancing their own agenda on the refugee question. The ABC is not only a media beast, it has become a political beast.
19 Nov 2013 11:31:14am
Maybe we should have a protest day in front of all the "Their ABC" offices through out the Country over their hatred for "OUR" Australia...... Damn, hang on, I'll be at work that day.......
Adelaide Rose:
18 Nov 2013 11:15:58pm
We have just had years of an Abbott led Opposition and the Murdoch press undermining every single effort made by the then government but now suddenly the government should be left unchallenged. Absolutely ridiculous.
19 Nov 2013 8:51:27am
I know Adelaide can be sleepy but please wake up and read more widely on the serial incompetence of the fortunately-departed Labor government. Just last weekend we were told that it rated equal to the Whitlam government as the worst in Australia's history. The Rudd-Gillard-Rudd government couldn't run a chook raffle without stuffing it up.
19 Nov 2013 10:25:03pm
No previous government stuffed it up. Neither Labor nor its predecessor. They appear to have done a pretty good job, the failure has come from the US allowing Snowden to get the information. I will say I'm bemused by the idea that Indonesia is considered a "friend" - a non-enemy perhaps.
For better or worse Abbott has to deal with the fall out - and he can't do it by blaming any predecessors because they were doing the right thing. How he does it will be the real test.
19 Nov 2013 12:20:48am
Given that the "boats" were considered to be a grave national emergency that required a three star general to coordinate the task to "stop the boats". It is very important for all of us to know how the situation was changed under this government. After all billions of taxpayers dollars are being spent on this hysterical scare campaign to "stop the boat" all to no avail. The "boats" are still coming and will continue to do so.
19 Nov 2013 8:09:33am
Some boats will get through, but so what, we just put em under arrest and send em back to wherever they came from. there are simply some people we can't allow here and there are some who already are here who should be arrested and deported. Above all our laws must be respected, if a citizen you get jailed, a visitor, deported. As I said with the sheer massive extent of our coastline and the vast expanses of ocean I'd like to see you try and stop every boat pal.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 11:10:25am
FF, if it is impossible to "stop the boats", then why did Tony Abbott promise to do just that virtually every day for the last 3 years?
Pragmatic prince:
19 Nov 2013 8:46:56am
When you say $billions spent on this hysterical scare campaign, do you mean the $Billions spent by labor addressing the problem that they created after it had already been fixed once by Howard?
People smugglers know that the situation has changed under this government. They now know they are dealing with somebody serious about stopping them rather than mouthing sweet nothings about how compassionate they are.
19 Nov 2013 8:53:46am
I believe the ABC has come to your aid. Reportedly it has created a "refugee boat" web page to keep track of the boats under the Coalition government after having ignored all the boats that arrived under Labor. It's just another blantant example of how the ABC treats the left and right sides of politics.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 11:13:09am
JohnM, the difference is that Labor were not trying to hide the boat arrivals whereas the Coalition is.
If the government is completely transparent, then there is no reason for the media to keep the public informed because the government is keeping the public informed anyway.
However, if the government is shrouding itself in a cloak of secrecy, then the responsibility then falls on the media to keep the public informed.
Chris L:
19 Nov 2013 11:32:40am
Pop, this information along with information on boat arrivals is all available in Al Jazeera. You prefer the idea of Australians having to turn to foreign newspapers to learn what their own government is up to?
What should Australian news organisations do? Have a tea break?
19 Nov 2013 12:48:03pm
"Not hearing about boats day in and day out is the best thing the Government has thought of."
It also helps to deceive some of the Australian public into thinking the boats have stopped coming.
However, during the course of the election campaign the reporting of the boats were very helpful to this present Government. It helped sell their message that a Coalition would be better at protecting our borders.
But of course what we don't hear about in the media we don't know about..
Papa O' Malley:
18 Nov 2013 7:35:51pm
Well done Ed Snowden. Another leak from Russia, that well known bastion of democracy and free speech. Just how does this leak make the world safer?
Note to Abbott haters. The author of the article worked for Stephen Smith, a Labor Minister for Defence.
18 Nov 2013 8:35:18pm
Point of note Papa. Why would hating Abbott automatically mean I support Labour? Can't I hate Labour too?
19 Nov 2013 12:26:39am
What an extraordinary comment to suggest that Snowdens revelations are not appropriate because he made them in Russia, which is ONLY nation in the world that has the military might and courage to stand up to the USA. A foreign concept for our politicians who blindly follow the USA
19 Nov 2013 8:14:01am
Are you seriously suggesting we change stance, tell the Americans we no longer are an ally and go it alone ?.. surely you jest sir. hey maybe you want us to go to war against them and last all of about 11 seconds. For your information Russia is a million times stronger than us and for a start they beat Napoleon all by themselves. I find your cringing morality unrealistic nonsense at best ...... sir.
19 Nov 2013 9:01:11am
Ever notice that the leakers lack the balls to leak against the seriously evil regimes? The regimes that wouldn't tolerate the leaking of secrets and would have you quietly (or not so quietly) killed?
I don't hear secrets leaked against Iran, North Korea, Russia....
19 Nov 2013 10:34:49am
Andy, I think you'll find that Wikileaks did uncover secrets from the nations you named.
19 Nov 2013 6:00:25pm
True, and those people are now after the Wikileaks people and want to kill them, espionage is a very life threatening practice and leaking military secrets the most life threatening thing anyone can do.
Chris L:
19 Nov 2013 11:35:24am
It would seem logican, Andy, to expect the leakers to leak information they had access to.
Why don't you leak secrets against Iran, North Korea and Russia? Is it because you don't have access to that information or lack the balls?
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 11:25:38am
Funnily enough, not so long ago, when Gerard Depardieu fled to Russia following the election of a government who promised to tax billionaires 75%, Russia was a perfectly sensible place to hang out, had great freedoms, nice tax regimes, and was the country of choice for harrassed elites escaping from tyrannical reign of socialist governments.
How times change, eh?
18 Nov 2013 7:35:52pm
Indonesia are very precious about this information gathering ,yet they will be at the forefront of gathering the same information from most countries in the region.
Remember the Balaboa five Aussie journos that were assasinated in Timor many years ago, they are not the innocents they make themselves out to be,in fact the corruption in that part of Asia is astounding laws are broken all the time. I say get over it!
18 Nov 2013 7:50:22pm
Is it secure to let the intelligence agencies work in the darkness without any supervise from us people? Actually I do know what they are doing and whether the achievements are true though I don't have so much knowledge in that area.
18 Nov 2013 11:12:05pm
Megan there is a bipartisan parliamentary joint committee that has oversight of intelligence matters. This is not our failure but that of the US.
18 Nov 2013 7:50:42pm
Andrew, I think that most people have already worked out that we do spy on the Indonesians and that certainly the Indonesians spy on us. People have also worked out that the spying obviously has been going on for a long time: Can you imagine John Howard's intervention in East Timor without first gathering intelligence information on the Indonesians from our embassy in Jakarta?.... So the real question is this: Why are the Indonesians making all this fuss now? What is the message that they are sending to Tony Abbott and Julie Bishop?
Abbott and Bishop either decode or do not decode the message. If they don't who knows what the consequences will be...
18 Nov 2013 8:19:13pm
It is pretty obvious that they are making a fuss now because the Snowden leaks have only just happened.
18 Nov 2013 9:54:49pm
If they knew (surely they were aware of at least some of the spying activities) but they have to somehow react now that Snowden has made the issue public, then the problem should quickly fade away after some kind of official apology. If this drags on and seriously complicates the relationship between the two countries then it may look more like an excuse than anything else.
Adelaide Rose:
18 Nov 2013 11:22:48pm
I think you'll find that the Abbott government has insulted and offended the Indonesian government continually since the election. Even prior to the election Abbott and co had already upset the Indonesian
The Abbott government has handled the revelations incredibly poorly and have further inflamed an already bad situation .
Pragmatic prince:
19 Nov 2013 8:58:49am
Stop watching the ABC and you might get a little more balance in your perspective. Indonesia was helping Australia until the labor spying saga hit the headlines. The general election in Indonesia next year meant that they had to take some sort of stand against us lest the lose face with the Indonesian people.
Indonesia did not trust Australia under labor because of two things. 1. Rudds decision to act unilaterally and change the asylum seeker rules that saw the flood of people transit thru Indonesia and Gillard stopping the live cattle trade.
Now we find out labor was bugging SBY's phone. And you attack Abbott. Unbelievable.
19 Nov 2013 11:47:40am
Our new PM publicly stated before and after the election he will put spies in Indonesian fishing villages to "stop the boats" whether Indonesia liked it or not.
Is Abbott blameless here? No.
I'm sorry but the ABC is the only balanced media in Australia. You are not seriously suggesting we read the Murdoch press for a 'balanced' view are you?
Abbott's first visit to Indoensia was hailed a success by Murdoch, but what did he actually do? Indonesia rolled out the red carpet but really couldn't wait until he left.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 2:28:26pm
pp, SBY tweeted today "?I regret the Australian PM statement belittling the phone-tapping in Indonesia."
Amazing how Abbott's Coalition of "no excuses" can't even produce a statement now without it being somebody else's fault.
19 Nov 2013 9:04:47am
Adelaide Rose,your are wrong about the Abbott government.He and Bishop have gone a long way into normalising the relationship after Gillard wrecked it with the live cattle trade ban.Just after the election Indonesia increased the live cattle quotas something the hapless Gillard could never do.Now Abbott has to pick up the pieces from another Labor stuff up.
19 Nov 2013 12:32:02pm
I am sorry, conservatives, but "But, but, but Labor..." isn't going to work on the Indonesians. They were spied on by Australia, not by Kevin Rudd, and they expect a response by the Australian PM. His standard approach of saying nothing, restricting information and hiding his actions is a lack of respect that the current government reserves for the Australian people, and the Indonesians will, rightly, not accept it.
18 Nov 2013 8:34:13pm
Why are the Indonesians making a fuss? (a) for home consumption, (b) because of the way they have been treated by Abbott and Bishop, (c) because they can.
Inept handling of this affair will lead to the closure or reduction of an Embassy presence. I await the inept handling - oh, no, that has already happened.
19 Nov 2013 10:28:45pm
probably because they have been left with egg on their face and their own intelligence services failed to detect this.
18 Nov 2013 8:42:12pm
"So the real question is this: Why are the Indonesians making all this fuss now?"
Indonesia is making a fuss because it's become an issue of public debate. They don't really care. But if they didn't make a fuss, they'd lose face in front of their Muslim, anti-colonial and anti-western citizens.
The more important question is this: Why are the media making such a fuss. Why did they disclose something which both nations were completely aware?
The answer is the same as why you comment on Australia's sovereignty. To cause trouble.
19 Nov 2013 7:50:24am
I agree that they did have to make a fuss, but that "They don't really care." is still to be seen. It all depends on how this affair unfolds.... watch carefully.
Oh please, shut up about the media would you? You Liberals made a fuss about an endless number of idiotic things when Labor was in Government. At least this issue may end up being objectively important.... for a change.... Time will tell.
Poisonous Mushroom:
18 Nov 2013 9:06:42pm
Thanks Alpo, it seems many people are taken by the idea that Abbott and co are being blamed for the spying. I believe you are right, the Snowden revelations are simply a cause Indonesia can hang its much bigger message on. It seems to me Indonesia has very real problems with the approaches adopted by Abbott, Morrison and Bishop and the way they have been dealing with Indonesia in Indonesia and in Australia.
I am thankful for the Indonesians standing up to Abbott and co because Abbott and co have done all they can to prevent Australians being able to stand up to them.
Pragmatic prince:
19 Nov 2013 9:03:44am
As I said before up until this dog Snowden came out and caused problems, the Indonesians were helping Australia. They were stopping boats before they left and they accepted a couple of boats back.
Maybe you can tell me when this happened under labor? Oh, I see. Never. Labor did not have the relationship to even suggest a deterrent.
Take your ABC coloured glasses off and look at the world as it really is instead of the progressive leftie bubble that dominates the Australian media.
19 Nov 2013 11:04:29am
"Maybe you can tell me when this happened under labor? Oh, I see. Never".... WRONG! The inflow of asylum seeker boats started to decline under Labor (PNG solution in particular). The Coalition have done NOTHING, I repeat nothing, but continue with the policies put in place by Labor.... but the boats keep coming. One boat is a policy failure for Abbott, two boats are a policy disaster!
pragmatic prince:
19 Nov 2013 12:49:04pm
Alpo, like most progressive you did not read what I said. Tell me when Indonesia stopped boats at the source under labor like they did recently for Abbott. Did it happen? The answer is No. It didn't. Indonesia did not cooperate with labor in any way shape or form.
Two boats are a policy disaster for Abbott but 200 is a labor success. BTW Rudd and Labor were [pretty good at apologising for other people, do think there would ever be a chance that they would apologise for changing the legislation that started the whole problem again?
19 Nov 2013 6:12:12pm
Think pp, most boats depart from Indonesia. Under Labor the number of boats declined, hence they were stopped at the point of departure. Boats haven't completely stopped coming, by the way. For Abbott this issue is central to the success of his Government: one boat is a policy failure for him, two boats are a policy disaster!.... and now he is in serious troubles with the Indonesian Government. Let's see how he gets out of this one....
A happy little debunker:
18 Nov 2013 9:23:25pm
Why is there a reticence by Michael Brissendon to articulate his actual sources?
If it was Snowden directly, why not say it?
If it was someone else - why not articulate it?
Wheels within wheels?
18 Nov 2013 10:12:46pm
Well I would say that with presidential elections coming up this is manna from heaven for the Indonesians.
19 Nov 2013 10:57:40am
I'd agree, and what if Bishop & Abbot are supporting the escalation to strengthen SBY's local stance?
18 Nov 2013 11:30:54pm
Alpo, the Snowden leaks have given Indonesia an opportunity to chest thump. There is nothing that Australia can say or do that will prevent this. Indonesia is a prisoner to this too, as they must chest thump to appease a domestic audience.
The best that abbott and bishop can achieve, is to not make the situation worse. They know this, and so should we.
struck dumb:
19 Nov 2013 12:29:45am
The theatrical reaction probably has more to do with the Indonesian elections that are due next year; after all they have been doing the best they can to spy on our government and many others as well.
The outrage is also convenient for trying to extract more concessions from us.
If they were truly outraged, they would refuse to accept any more foreign aid from us, and expel our ambassador - though the latter might yet happen if they think they can push their indignation that far and get away with it. Until that happens, its the usual jockeying for position to grab the moral high ground, with a bit of tit-for-tat to appease the voters.
19 Nov 2013 11:40:24am
They are making a fuss now because Abbott has publicly displayed contempt for Indonesia over the last 3 years.
Indonesia are pushing back, they will not stand for 3 more years of Abbott trying to push them around.
Merlin 23:
19 Nov 2013 1:25:17pm
I suspect this has to do little with Liberal or Labor. The fact is Indonesia is approaching election time and the government needs to be seen as doing the right thing and being tough.
A bit like Labor and Liberal on border security in the last election really....
18 Nov 2013 7:56:36pm
Ok the latest revelations say that Australia tried to bug Yudhoyono's phone in 2009. Lets see who was the Foreign and Defence Ministers in 2009 when all this spying took place .... Oh it was Stephen SXmith and John Faulkner and Gillard was the PM!
18 Nov 2013 8:23:37pm
Ha, ha. Poor boiler, trying to score a cheap point. Sorry to tell you that ASIO have continued their operations since Abbott has become PM, and ASIO agents were also pretty much active on intelligence gathering (that's their job!) during the 11 years of the Howard Government. Howard didn't intervene on East Timor without first gathering a considerable amount of intelligence on the Indonesians.
Waterloo Sunset. 2014:
18 Nov 2013 9:49:36pm
Actually, this ABC furore about our governments intelligence gathering is just what Bishop needed, to show control, diplomacy and resolve.
It's manna; a dream run. The lucky country now has the lucky government.
The next few weeks will set up The libs for 15 years Alpo.
19 Nov 2013 7:53:56am
"Bishop needed, to show control, diplomacy and resolve."... I fully agree that this is a test for both Bishop and Abbott. Whether they will pass it or not we shall see...
... about this issue setting up the Liberals for the next 15 years, who knows. It may be 15 years in Opposition.....
19 Nov 2013 2:36:57pm
Alpo. Check the score.
Labor has been caught out spying on our neighbour. Abbott is only a few weeks into the job, but he now has the perfect opportunity to show diplomacy for the mistakes of the previous government.
Labor? They're going to get the blame for this, both from Indonesia and Australia. People are going to remember that with one tiny decision, they almost completely destroyed our relationship with Indonesia in a matter of hours.
It might be a long time before the public trusts Labor with foreign policy and intelligence. In fact, if Labor doesn't come up with a convincing excuse, they might never obtain power again.
19 Nov 2013 6:17:05pm
"Labor has been caught out spying on our neighbour."... Spying never stops Zing, it's called: "Gathering intelligence". Do you really think that the Howard Government didn't spy on Jakarta? Really?.... Howard prepared an intervention in East Timor without gathering intelligence on the Indonesian Government and the military?.... Really?..... Please, don't make me laugh!.... Who knows, this may even be a pay back to the Coalition from the part of the Indonesians.... Hmmm, worth thinking about....
19 Nov 2013 7:41:10pm
Alpo. We're not talking about what the Liberal party *might* have done. We're talking about what Labor *has* done and been caught out about.
Labor's actions have potentially ruined our relationship with Indonesia. Nobody cares about boats or borders now. They're talking about whether Indonesia will ever speak to us again.
If Labor can't find a way to escape the blame for this, they'll be finished as a political party. Nobody is going to trust them on diplomacy, intelligence or foreign policy now. This event is going to be a millstone around their neck, as sure as "children overboard" was one for the coalition.
19 Nov 2013 10:32:39pm
No, people are going to praise them for doing the right thing and spying on a corrupt neighbour who has invade several neighbours. Although I suspect (hope) the spying has been going on longer than that.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 2:34:07pm
WS, this "ABC furore" is on the front page of the Jakarta Post, and the SMH, and The Australian today.
Funnily enough, the headlines in those newspapers mention nothing of an "ABC furore", but something of a spying scandal.
And certainly, Abbott looked absolutely delighted when interviewed about the phone-hacking yesterday.
Waterloo Sunset. 2014:
19 Nov 2013 3:30:28pm
Perhaps he had read my post, Mark.
I addressed the point about trumpeting, in another post to you.
The other newspapers are of course running it now.
19 Nov 2013 1:46:39am
ASIO weren't involved. Most of our intelligence work carried out overseas is done by ASIS (Australian Secret Intelligence Servicee - our MI6) and the former DSD. Asio handle intelligence within Australian borders.
18 Nov 2013 8:46:40pm
I think you'll find there has been 2 way spying since the 70's and even before - East Timor anybody??
As others have stated now its Tony and Julie who need to manage (this if they can) and errr.. sorry saying "please sir it wasn't me it was him" won't work
19 Nov 2013 8:33:05am
Mate there must have been spying since the early days of the NSW colony and the Dutch in Java, even allies have a lomited trust of each other so how about when two nations are diametrically opposites........ in fact spying has gone on forever, before Sargon the Great was a boy.
19 Nov 2013 5:28:16pm
Murder and rape have been with us forever also...it's still wrong..
..so your point is???
19 Nov 2013 10:07:42am
Stephen Smith was Foreign Affairs Minister??
John Faulkner was Defence Minister??
What were you on in 2009?
19 Nov 2013 11:51:33am
Indonesia are making a fuss now because our new PM has shown open contempt for Indonesia for 3 years now.
Who said it was government policy to place spies in Indonesian fishing villages whether they liked it or not?
Indonesia will not put up with 3 more years of this and this is how they fight back, by refusing to help to "stop the boats".
20 Nov 2013 7:54:27am
Fool, Stephen Smith was Foreign Affairs Minister and John Faulkner was Defence Minister in 2009 = Labor.
They signed off on this so don't go blaming Tony Abott who has to once again get us out of labors mess.
Who care about the boats, Australia can turn them back, its our sovereign right and it doesn't matter what Indonesia wants period, its just a nicety to involve them.
18 Nov 2013 8:11:52pm
When you read the responses to this article you would think that poor old Abbott is being hard done by.
The issue of spying has gone on for as long as there have been governments, get over it.
The Abbott government has to deal with this issue, so what? Don't you think they are up to the challenge? If not they should save us all the embarrassment of having to kick them out.
A Bishop stare might mean something to Australian's but it won't to the Indonesians.
Act like an adult and deal with the situation that is what they are being paid for.
18 Nov 2013 10:18:45pm
"Act like an adult and deal with the situation that is what they are being paid for."
And that is what they will do but the ABC won't be getting to many interviews from the government.If you think they are starved of access now watch this space.
19 Nov 2013 12:39:25pm
As you say, Evan, the LNP will adopt their only strategy and hide even harder.
18 Nov 2013 8:13:44pm
Oh dear! I have a sneaking suspicion those trumpeting the "boats reduced by 75%" line may just have pulled the trigger a tad too early. Fascinating to see this relates to intelligence activity back in 2009 - it seems that even beyond the political grave Kevin & Co can still manage to shaft Boatman. Conservatives done over by a "Law and Order" agency - it rarely gets better than this.
Has anyone checked if we've been spying on the Sri Lankans as well? They might be sending our fagged-out interceptor craft back with a rather pointed message spray-painted on the side. I see a lot of "Ah, ah, ah, well look, ah..." on the political horizon.
19 Nov 2013 8:44:57am
I have yet to hear an "ah" so far MJ! We can only imagine what Rudd and Carr would be doing now had they won the election. I can sense your excitement though.
Abbott is going to really get up your skin over the next 9 years or so MJ.
Des des:
18 Nov 2013 8:14:51pm
New prime minister has been left with this mess by Rudd, Carr and Smith who either allowed this or were totally inept if they did not know.I agree the ABC and Fairfax have not helped. What is incomprehensible is the stance taken by the Greens. Milne has been bleating on television over this only to be surpassed by Adam Bandt's question in parliament today. For God's sake you two you were part of the government alliance at the time....if you didn't know what was happening at least ask the former government leaders.The greens show absolutely no loyalty to Australia in fanning these. Flames. The description of the greens as watermelons....green on the outside,red on the inside is very apt ....a disgraceful performance by them today
18 Nov 2013 11:21:49pm
Get a grip on your polemics Des des, it is no fault of either Labor or Coalition governments but the back was of a US security failure. Intelligence policy in Australia is bipartisan and the last thing we want is for that to unravel for party political reasons.
19 Nov 2013 1:49:41am
Des des, the former government probably had no idea that this was even going on. The relevant ministers from the PM down are given only what they need to know. I think it all comes under plausible deniability so that the government of the day doesn't end up with sh*t on their faces every time an op goes pear shaped.
19 Nov 2013 12:43:22pm
I agree with you Des des, the current government is definitely not up to this diplomatic challenge. Are you suggesting that the Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs should deal with it?
Ckear Thinker:
19 Nov 2013 2:59:57pm
Glamorpig (12.43pm) Funny isn't it.
Plibersek arrives in Indonesia and she's asked "Have you or any close family member ever been convicted of Drug Trafficking? Any of you ever been gaoled for such offences?"
Oh dear. However DID the dopes at ALP Central choose Plibbers as the RIGHT PERSON to dispel the notion that so many Aussies are drug fiends, eh? Shapelle Corby to be Labor's next pick as Ambassador to Jakarta too? FFS!
18 Nov 2013 8:15:43pm
Three general observations:
1) Why oh why do these forums have to descend immediately into preemptive left-right wrangling, no matter what the actual topic of the article is, and even when the article is *specifically about* something that governments of both political orientations have engaged in? Nobody cares about how much hate you can spew about Abbott/Rudd/Obama/Gillard/Bush/Julius Caesar/Napoleon/Genghis Khan/<insert political leader people love to rant about>
2) This "spying on world leaders" thing is a sideshow. The primary debate we should be having about Snowden is the "spying on ordinary citizens" thing. One can discuss what intelligence agencies are meant to do (spy on other countries) endlessly, perhaps we should discuss the thing closer to home, the level of surveillance the government should engage in domestically.
3) Anybody who complains about the ABC/Fairfax/<insert news organisation with perceived left/right/centre/up/down/in/out/diagonal bias> reporting on a story, whilst simultaneously arguing intelligence agencies should be left to do their job, realise that the said news organisation is also, you know, doing their job.
J Dee:
18 Nov 2013 8:53:58pm
Most sensible comment I've read on an ABC Forum in years!
Hudson Godfrey:
18 Nov 2013 8:57:09pm
I think you make a very good point with your observations in that anyone interpreting accounts that date to Labor's tenure in office can hardly bleat that it's all a plot against Abbott. Neither side comes out well, so for once I think we can use the clich?d term ""false dichotomy" without fear of contradiction.
The only thing that we seem confidently able to conclude is that neither side of Australian politics shows the slightest inclination towards standing up for our democratic rights to privacy or free speech.
18 Nov 2013 10:23:09pm
Because the left wingers lost the election and just suck at accepting defeat, hence, the carry on like pork chops. I for one, don't understand the spying fuss as it's on both sides of the fence for the Indons and Aus governments. Someone made a valid point about the Indons and election year coming up so alot of hairless chest beating from the Indons. On your third point, slightly off as it goes back to your first point rather then about doing their job. Left wing MSM tend to blame the conservatives for the ills of the world and it's become a Mr Bean parody of mistakes and ridiculous assertions that socialism is good and capitalism is bad. It's become a Al Gore con job of the highest order when it comes to left wing anything and the sooner the adults in charge are left to govern the country, the sooner we the public, might just get on with our lives without someone (read Labor) blowing a horn every 5 mins to get my attention. Over it!
19 Nov 2013 9:49:13am
so I assume you won the medal for "total lack of self-awareness"...
18 Nov 2013 10:26:20pm
THE issue right now is how the new government deals with this issue.
But dealing with the unexpected is what every government has to do.
20 Nov 2013 7:57:50am
NO it isn't.
No 3 is poppycock
Reporting sensitive intelligence data is a crime - in law. Being a news reporter is not an excuse nor get out of jail free card.
They should be put up on charges and let the law do its job.
20 Nov 2013 8:32:25am
It isn't. The US attorney general himself has stated that Glenn Greenwald or other journalists that received and published material direct from Snowden will not be prosecuted, because they have committed no crime.
In light of this, the ABC, which is only reporting what others have already reported, is even less guilty of anything.
18 Nov 2013 8:16:37pm
Porter and our government and other governments are treating each other and everybody as fools. Many of us know it happens but do not know the extent. It is reasonable to believe they will do anything they think they can get away with. At the same time we know that spin will be used to deceive the public and much of the public will believe.
In another different but similar situation officials and such commenters have and would describe what happens in movies as far fetched and attempt to infer such as a denial of an event.
Governments would otherwise pretend it is not as widespread as it is and expect the public to believe them. Leaks make that too difficult for them and now they and people like Porter use a pathetic attempt to question what is the big deal because we all knew anyway. So why do they all continue to play the silly buggers game?
More often than not a neither confirm nor deny stance can be reasonably interpreted as a confirmation.
Our world is increasingly becoming one of less trust. Our governments do not trust each other or their citizens and break each others laws where those laws have jurisdiction. Plainly, they do not respect each others sovereignty. Yet they expect their citizens to trust them and supposed friendly governments.
The real issue is that trust is undeserved and that is their problem.
John Robertson:
18 Nov 2013 8:18:23pm
If one is charitable the ABCs action in this matter at this time is mischievous. If realistic, the ABC is being treacherous. How come the despicable Green Sen. Ludlum is not challenged to say on what basis his Labour/Green alliance did this. According to him and the ABC the present Government is to blame. How hypocritical!
It is the duty of any Government to have the best possible information on other Governments with whom it has close contacts. It is the duty of the media not to score cheap points by revealing details of this. It may do their readership/viewership temporary good but it will certainly do our international relations much harm. Another 'triumph' for the ABC!
18 Nov 2013 10:28:21pm
It is the job of the media to report what is happening.
They've done that. It is now the job of the media to report on how the government handles the situation.
If you only want the media to report how wonderful your side of politics is doing then why bother?
19 Nov 2013 8:55:53am
I agree that holding the government up to scrutiny is a proper action for the media.
What I want to know is why the Labor government weren't subjected to the same level of scrutiny and criticism.
19 Nov 2013 9:50:32am
Poor timing. Nothing more and nothing less.
19 Nov 2013 11:21:34am
Snowden released the files in June to the media before he went to Russia, so they have known since then that Australia was spying on its neighbours.
So, why did they choose now to release it? The Guardian, ABC and Fairfax might have a few questions to answer here.
18 Nov 2013 10:50:14pm
If you don't like democracy at work, Somalia is a great place to holiday in.
James Jesse:
19 Nov 2013 3:17:24pm
The media is not to blame they are just doing there job... Blame Snowden. This issue is how does our current government handle the diplomacy issues arising from this.
18 Nov 2013 8:18:28pm
Has an offense been committed by michael brissenden here? I may be a bush lawyer, but under the Crimes Act 1914, Section 79, Official Secrets, subsections 5:
(5) If a person receives any sketch, plan, photograph, model, cipher, note, document, article or information, knowing or having reasonable ground to believe, at the time when he or she receives it, that it is communicated to him or her in contravention of section 91.1 of the Criminal Code or subsection (2) of this section, he or she shall be guilty of an indictable offence unless he or she proves that the communication was contrary to his or her desire.
Penalty: Imprisonment for 7 years.
Subsection 2 also would be easy to prove, particularly as they definitely:
(2) If a person with the intention of prejudicing the security or defence of the Commonwealth or a part of the Queen's dominions:
(a) communicates a prescribed sketch, plan, photograph, model, cipher, note, document or article, or prescribed information, to a person, other than:
(i) a person to whom he or she is authorized to communicate it; or
(ii) a person to whom it is, in the interest of the Commonwealth or a part of the Queen's dominions, his or her duty to communicate it;
or permits a person, other than a person referred to in subparagraph (i) or (ii), to have access to it;
Edward Snowden doesn't have to be charged. Under Subsection 5, Michael Brissenden and at least an editor could look forward to relaxing in a Max Security Prison for the forseeable future.
18 Nov 2013 10:30:21pm
Several media sources are reporting on this issue.
They are reporting on what had become public knowledge thanks to Snowden's leaked information. Would you rather the press just ignore what the Indonesians already knew?
18 Nov 2013 11:27:01pm
Peter you may well be right, not that I would know (can't wait for Peter the Lawyer and reaver to weigh in). But the bun fight that would occur if anyone tried to enforce such provisions would be truly awesome to behold.
Peter NQ:
19 Nov 2013 10:29:51am
So members of the media are above the law? The documents in question are TOP SECRET COMINT, they have clearly been willingly recieved from someone who has obtained them illegally (Edward Snowden). And then reproduced in a public place to people not authorised to recieve them with a fair expectation that it would predudice Australia's security, through starting a major diplomatic incident.
Had Michael Brissenden not reproduced the documents in the public domain but referred to sensitive documents, it would have been harder to prove, no less informing and would have probably been easier for the indonesians to swallow as such claims could be more easily dismissed.
If people are not investigated for the crimes they commit, its a great example that encourages others to commit other crimes.
Ckear Thinker:
19 Nov 2013 3:06:56pm
Peter NQ. Suppose a lowly Centrelink staffer leaked a few client documents to the press. This is a serious offence punishable by several years gaol.
Imagine a reporter then published these documents with all names and details fully intact. Yeap...that would have the AFP on their doorstep very quickly.
I'm guessing that Fairfax and the ABC would NOT touch such documents. Any Luvvie want to call such illegal behaviour "freedom of speech", or "the public's right to know"?
18 Nov 2013 8:28:10pm
The Guardian maybe, but our national, publicly funded broadcaster, the ABC, releasing information that damages our relations with our most important near neighbour and that will cost us dearly? Does the ABC want retribution from the Abbott government? There are certainly many conservatives who would favour cutting back or even eliminating the ABC.
Snowden, a naive traitor (to the US), may have released the information initially, but giving it such widespread reporting in the popular press here will ensure a backlash from patriotic Indonesians. It does not matter if all governments are doing it, Indonesian politics will ensure that we pay in some way.
As long as these things are kept confidential they do not harm relations. I don't agree with the government's secrecy on boat arrivals, but sensitive intelligence like foreign spying is another matter.
18 Nov 2013 9:15:04pm
And lets not forget who broke the story on the live cattle trade with Indonesia.
Adelaide Rose:
18 Nov 2013 11:29:01pm
The ABC is simply reporting on the information, it is not responsible for releasing it. The ABC should never, ever fall into line with the Abbott government's plans to treat Australians like mushrooms.
19 Nov 2013 12:07:42am
Relations with Indonesia are harmed on a sometimes daily, weekly incremental basis by the casual racist xenophobic undertone of much of the public discourse of our leaders over the last decade and a half.
Last week Peter Reith appeared on The Drum on ABCNews24 to discuss an earlier wave of revelations in relation to Indonesia. He casually referred to Dewi Fortuna Anwar as "that woman" unable or unwilling to actually refer to her by name.
This struck me as strange given that Dr Anwar was a presidential advisor to President Habibie and also is a presidential advisor to President Yudhoyono and someone that our former Minister of Defence would surely have known about. I could not work out whether Reith was being lazy, contemptuous, actually stupid, possibly sexist or all of these at once.
This attitude I would characterise as the old boy grammarian neo-colonial and dominated the style of the Howard years and appears to be undergoing a revival now. The Snowden revelations are indeed embarrassing but the casual disrespect shown to Indonesia in these more everday ways also resonates in our world of global communications.
A lot has happened in the last four hours that signals to us that no matter how slick and clever our eavesdropping can be nothing replaces real intelligence and insight.
19 Nov 2013 9:17:54am
Come on, are you really suggesting that the ABC would not have reported this if the Labor goverment was in power.
18 Nov 2013 8:46:21pm
What needs to be remembered we are talking Labor governments doing the spying the ABC would love to fit Abbott with this but but the chips will fall on Labor.
19 Nov 2013 2:14:50pm
gbe, this spying dates back to the Howard years, and parliamentarians of every stripe were not privvy to the information. I am more interested in the claim that Labour suppressed public service job cuts even though it was implicit in their costings for efficiencies. Interesting that this is being given emphasis by the Libs to overshadow their far greater plans for cuts.
18 Nov 2013 8:52:22pm
No-one is disputing that the point of intelligence-gathering is to gather intelligence. What is in dispute is what that intelligence is gathered for.
How does listening in on the President's wife's phone stop terrorism? How would we feel if a leak came out that the Indonesians had been listening in on Margie or Therese or Tim or Janet?
Labour or Liberal, it doesn't matter, some of the information that's been gathered has questionable use and has come at the risk of at best, a diplomatic snafu and at worst, an act of war.
If the public sentiment in Indonesia continues to shift south towards Australians, all it would take is one savvy politician to seize on that and take power in the coming Indonesian elections.
This is news, and the ABC are right to report on it. The fact is that it is already public. If they didn't bring the story, we'd be hearing about it in the Jakarta Post and wondering why no-one thought to tell us.
19 Nov 2013 10:43:37pm
If I heard that they were listening in then I'd feel that ASIO wasn't doing its job. I certainly wouldn't be surprised. Good intelligence gathering isn't about getting big important things in one hit; it's about the accumulation of details and joining them al together to build a picture. Even small pieces on information in a conversation between a head of state and his partner may help to verify information from another source or add another small piece to the jigsaw.
I will admit as someone who loathes Abbott I'm pleased that he has refused to apologise (or blame it on any previous government).
Poisonous Mushroom:
18 Nov 2013 8:53:58pm
Nice to see Tony and Julie that relationships with Indonesia are improving so well and that Indonesia really loves Australia only spying for good Tony.
Yes, you can try keeping Australians as mushrooms Tony, but it seems to me that Indonesia has got your measure well and truly Tony.
It seems to me you have done everything you can to try to infuriate Indonesia by ignoring the changes Indonesia thought hard to achieve (including removing the generals from civilian matters), quietly letting you know that they would not agree to the policies you were trying to inflict upon them and adding further insult to injury by saying Australia only spies to do good, and off course to help our friends.
In my view it is you Mr Abbott, Mr Morrison and Ms Bishop who left Indonesia with no alternative but to withdraw their Ambassador.
Wake up Tony and co, you can play games with Australian electors, but other nations will not let you push them around.
19 Nov 2013 8:51:02am
Actually I just think as usual Indonesia is trying to bully us so they make themselves look good to their voters by appearing to stand up to whitey. This whole thing bores me to tears, it has been going on since it was called the Dutch east Indies. Say what you like about the Dutch but they were pretty good neighbors to us. They withdraw their embassy but you know damn well they can't keep that up for long. I will start listening to Indonesia when they get out of west Papua, why aren't you making a fuss about that illegal invasion, conquest and continued occupation over a people clearly not related to the Javanese and the fact that most of the poor victims are still in the stone age makes it a crime against humanity.
18 Nov 2013 9:11:32pm
I was very disturbed by the ABC's broadcasting of the so-called 'leaks' on tonight's news. No adult in Australia should willingly undermine our nation or it's security; what is supposed to be secret should be kept that way, and to see the ABC behave like a common gossip with the mental maturity of a child is really disgusting. How do they know that these documents are even legitimate? They certainly didn't appear to me to be - I thought they were altogether too colourful and iconic to be official documents. There was no explanation of how ABC had authenticated them or their veracity. The fact, too that they are 4 years old means that they have nothing to do with our new Government, so why cause all this trouble by exposing them now? I personally think that anybody who 'leaks' official documents should be treated as troublemakers, and when they do so knowing that the 'leak' will cause damage, they should be had up for treason. Living in a democracy doesn't mean you can do anything you like; it means having the privilege of taking part in the making of the rules and laws that govern our society, without which we would have no democracy, but total chaos. It seems that all Aunty wants to do is cause as much trouble for anyone in any sort of position of power as possible. This is our nation - LIFT it, don't chop it off at the socks all the time!
19 Nov 2013 6:11:52am
Yes, and I am really a big fan of our intelligence services working with the US and Israel to ensure that every email I send, every phone call I make, is stored somewhere for use against me whenever it suits them. Security issues, my eye. It's a police state mentality.
19 Nov 2013 8:57:20am
Well its very extremely unlikely that the US mob are coming after you even if you criticize them here. It would only be a police state mentality if they took all that stuff too far. The capabilities of modern computerization means they can store quadrillions of information so its very simple for them to just include everything ever written or said. I agree we must be vigilant about that, trusting people or nations we dont personally know like a close relative is simply not logical, but paranoia isn't either.
18 Nov 2013 9:12:00pm
Well there goes any cooperation we might have had with Indonesia on stopping the boats.Well done the ABC and the Guardian who's side are you on.If Tony needed an excuse to can the ABC this might be a good place to start.
19 Nov 2013 1:00:44pm
You are right Evan. The truth must be suppressed at all costs. If the Australian public finds out what this government is doing there will be hell to pay. Any light shone on this can only end badly. Our freedums.
19 Nov 2013 1:05:22pm
EVAN, what was your view on the media inquiry instigated by the Labor Government?
19 Nov 2013 9:02:20pm
"If Tony needed an excuse to can the ABC"... So, EVAN, let me try to understand. It seems that you are suggesting that Abbott should get rid of the ABC because they reported news of national relevance?... And how would a new "reformed" and "purified" ABC look after Abbott has cleansed it of this freedom of speech dirt?.... I mean, you guys are going down the drain much more quickly than even I ever imagined...
18 Nov 2013 9:16:08pm
Just a distraction, the real problem with the NSA and similar western spy agencies, is that they were spying on people illegally and unethically even according the laws of their own nations. Spying on civilians just because of political views, or because those people protested about government behaviour. Spying on phone conversations without any apparent respect for rights, laws, or ethics. Nothing to stop these spy agencies members engaging in insider trading, corporate espionage, spying on spouses, or just being perverts spying on the private of activities of innocent people in their own homes.
Dino not to be confused with:
18 Nov 2013 9:21:07pm
Thanks Andrew,
It remind me of Whitlam and Timor and Papua(irian jaya).
You remember that don't you?
Pat T:
18 Nov 2013 9:28:56pm
What many people do not fully understand is that people smuggling business is conducted over several countries each of which contributes to and benefits from the people smuggling business. Australia is one of those countries.
There are many people in Australia who are directly involved with people smuggling and many others who benefit from the asylum seekers in their professional interests. These include many people employed in legal profession, immigration and settlement agencies etc. The Australian side of business would in itself involve few billion dollars. Considering such large amounts of money and the number of people involved who are benefiting from people smuggling business, you can easily understand the number of comments supporting 'asylum seekers' pretending to be 'bleeding hearts', caring for the plight of the Asylum Seekers. You can also easily understand that these people will do everything possible to stifle government's efforts to combat people smuggling. The more effective government efforts are, the more sneaky and 'dirty' fight will be conducted by the Australian branch of the People Smuggling business.
Therefore, be prepared for more leaks of any kind attempting to damage our relationship with Indonesia, many more stories and comments about the plight of the asylum seekers and many more organised street demonstrations in support of people smuggling business, disguised as fight for the asylum seekers rights.
18 Nov 2013 9:53:24pm
Yes, we can.
Perhaps it should have been: "Yes, we all can."
The curse of modern day communications. The days when a glass on the wall to listen in on someone is long gone !
I believe there is a pact between Australia, USA and Britain ? Why? Because they are friends. OK, that is fair enough. Now Australia is trying to tell Indonesia that we want to be not just friends, but bloody good friends. Talk is cheap, don't you think?
I still can't comprehend why listen in on President Yudhoyono's misses. Are we trying to gather some dirt on the couple? Perhaps the spy agency is having too much time on its hands.
By the way, is spying on the Queen permissible?
19 Nov 2013 5:37:28pm
When you say "the Queen", you are of course referring to the head of state of Papua New Guinea - a valid intelligence target.
18 Nov 2013 9:53:34pm
some agencies are trying so hard to conceal their black operations, some of which are too dirty to mention. I hope this secret leaking issue will become kinda effective so it can prevent agenciest from doing that vile things again.
18 Nov 2013 9:56:31pm
Starting with John Howard, Australian "intelligence" agencies became staffed with politically correct cronies -- the last thing you need in intelligence. Call it "spying" or information gathering and analysis, what you need are experienced professionals that can think outside the box, and report (at least internally) the truth. Unfortunately, Australia has purged such individuals from "the system". The ultimate consequences will no doubt be "interesting".
18 Nov 2013 9:56:43pm
Let's put this into perspective:
1. All governments spy on each other-for governments to pretend this is a surprise is bull
2. Why are people shocked that their email/internet access is monitored by governments? Its been going on for at least 20 years that I know of,so it ain't nothing new or shocking
19 Nov 2013 9:16:49am
We all know that criminals engage in crimes, that people's privacy is invaded illegally and unethically, that these agencies will lie about "security" concerns while actually spying on everyone for a lot of sham reasons that have nothing to do with 'security' and that doesn't make it right either. Knowing that someone is always doing bad things, and that's lots of people do bad things, does NOT make those bad things right. See the problem yet?
Ckear Thinker:
19 Nov 2013 3:24:20pm
AJC. There have been several Australians murdered in Indonesia by Islamic Nutters. Fair enough that Indonesia is helpful intracking them down, but what's the big deal about Australia's law Enforcenment Agencies ALSO keeping an eye on things?
Are you unaware that Indonesia's own security agencies are reputed to have "rogue elements" which are NOT nice guys? That not every Indo is trustworthy?
19 Nov 2013 4:22:43pm
There's a point where spying for spying's sake goes too far, and it gets worse when it's likely not really necessary for security anyway. Like spying on the private marital conversations of an Indonesian president and his wife. But they didn't just do that, did they?
19 Nov 2013 1:52:29pm
So, Roosters13, if this has been going on, and everybody knows about it, then evidence of it happening shouldn't be a problem, should it?
18 Nov 2013 9:57:04pm
It has been obvious for some time now that "Our" ABC is anything but 'ours'. It is currently dominated by the Labor/Green urban 'yuppies' who use the ABC for their own political propaganda. They have for some time now, been working directly and openly against the conservative side of the political spectrum.
Having said all that, I still did not believe that they would go as far as to damage our country's international relationship to score a political point against the conservative government. This is the new low, even for the ABC.
The coalition government would be extremely foolish if they allow continuation of the hostile political propaganda by the ABC. The government must make the ABC, once again our national broadcaster, rather than continuing as a medium for dissemination of the hostile left ideology.
19 Nov 2013 1:56:40pm
The Australian Government spied on Indonesia, not the ABC. The fact of them doing it was reported widely internationally, and it would be irresponsible and weak for the ABC NOT to report it. It isn't the fault of the ABC that the current government relies on keeping its operations secret from the Australian people. If you don't want to know the truth, and apparently you don't, then make your own arrangements. In democracies we celebrate a free press, not the type of Pravda that you seem to be advocating.
18 Nov 2013 10:10:27pm
There's no point in blaming any media organisation for this 'leak'.
It was leaked and Indonesia's intelligence agencies would have found about it sooner or later. But then again you would have to assume that their intelligence agencies would have already been aware of this or at the very least suspected this level of surveillance. A point which is largely agreed by the spy boffins commenting on this publically..... from both sides of politics.
Perhaps these media organisations hope to stop countries spying on each other? Or maybe it's about just stopping Australia spying - who knows.
Either way I believe that those that have authorised the airing of our dirty laundry so publically should answer these two simple questions?
What are you trying to achieve and why?
When did this information first become available?
If you feel so duty bound to the Australian to air such issues then you should be at least as duty bound to justify your decisions.
C'mon Aunty let's at least hear from your top level bods who sanctioned this. It may be enlightening for us all.
19 Nov 2013 1:58:15pm
You know - maybe because it is true?
That doesn't seem to be important lately, but the truth used to be something we valued, whether we liked it or not.
19 Nov 2013 2:33:14pm
Glamor - you're missing the point.
Spying is true - really who would have thought. EVERYONE already knows it goes on - it's why countries have agencies.
The question I am raising is how does the ABC think that airing this necessary evil is in the national interest?
I'd like to hear their justification of how having done this serves our national interest.
19 Nov 2013 9:25:31pm
I think it is you that is missing the point. We were monitoring the phone calls of that well-known terrorist threat, the wife of the Indonesian first lady. Can you imagine the screams if he phone of the sainted Margie was tapped, or, heaven forfend, the booth girl daughters (except by the Americans, of course). As was pointed out arlier, Abbott is obsessed by the illegality of seeking asylum, but not concerned at all with the legalty of tapping the phones of a foreign government in their own country. It serves our national interest because it is the truth, something this government wishes to manage.
19 Nov 2013 10:09:17pm
Oh and here I was thinking you were going on about freedom of the press. Instead it seems you are more concerned about domestic political point scoring at the expense of the nations interest. It's OK hey Glamor as long as it's anti Abbott.
If Abbott is so obsessed about stopping ILLEGAL boat arrivals what gives the ABC the right to try and scupper his attempts to do something he was VOTED IN to do?
What gives the ABC the right to publish 'Top Secret' transcripts that damage the national interest just to damage Abbott's attempts?
Oh the ABC is not doing that I hear you say? BS! They have been sitting on this report since July?
18 Nov 2013 10:30:07pm
The lefty ABC never ceases to surprise me. Tonight's 4 corners, which shows how the boat people are economic migrants and not "fleeing certain death", must have the asylum seeker fan club spewing !
18 Nov 2013 10:37:17pm
Can you imagine what the Spies outside of Australia thought when they heard the conversations between Howard and Abbott talking about how to keep the Australian public in the dark about what they intend to do. "Tony just tell them nothing.Mind you the ABC will try and discredit your belief and my belief that Australia is better off under our guidance".
Whilst I have some sense of sovereignty the need to hide behind operational reasons should only be used in time of war.Or are we at war with unarmed men women and children?
18 Nov 2013 10:38:56pm
Dear old Aunty has become somewhat of a pariah in our family. Not content with promoting an activist group's propaganda resulting in an overnight shortage of protein to Indonesia, while insulting their industry and intelligence at the same time, now silly old Aunty is blaming the current government for any relationship damage - while now giving state intelligence secrets away to Indonesia willy nilly.
Oh Aunty, we used to be so proud of you, but I'm afraid you've become a dangerous embarrassment.
18 Nov 2013 10:48:32pm
'Indonesia's ambassador in Canberra will immediately return to Jakarta following claims Australia had tapped the phone of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono.'
From the response detailed in this report, it seems that Tony Abbott's revelations in the recent ABC interview with Leigh Sales, and Julie Bishop's tough-smiling words of friendship don't amount to very effective diplomacy. I suspect neither is really up to the job of preserving good relationships with out near neighbours.
18 Nov 2013 10:59:01pm
Oh well we just can't trust the yanks to keep our secrets!
This to will pass but I expect it will cost us a few more million in aid.
18 Nov 2013 11:04:32pm
The solution is simple give Indonesia the Criminals, Rudd, Gillard and Carr and let them deal with them how they feel fit.
And diplomacy can be restored.
18 Nov 2013 11:07:55pm
Why is everyone so precious about our 'ties with indonesia'? Last time I checked these people live in a third world country and need us a hell of a lot more than we need them. Ever been to Indonesia? Most of the people are downright rude and hate us. Let them play their stupid games so we can cut them loose.
19 Nov 2013 10:06:01pm
Bob, the commercial exchange between us and Indonesia is worth $14.9 billion. We invest there to the tune of $5.4 billion (very many Ozzy companies operate in Indonesia). On the other hand the Indonesians invest here to the tune of about $450 million.... who is the one who's going to lose the most if we p..s them off?
18 Nov 2013 11:35:00pm
we are currently friendly with Indonesia.
But have not always been so, nor will we always be allies.
Anyone who thinks otherwise has never studied history.
To stop spying on them and everyone else we can - is juvenile.
James from Bray Park:
18 Nov 2013 11:36:18pm
What an offensively stupid carry on by the Indonesians, who know for a fact that they spy on Australia too, and by the press clowns who would release this 'no-brainer' with the full knowledge that the criminals who are running Indonesia will make a soap opera out of it. And the Australian intelligence idiots who feel that we are nothing unless we suck up to the criminals running U.S.A. inc. News flash guys. by aiding the NSA and allowing Pine Gap to continue, you are committing treason. At some stage it will be found out that none of this garbage at all is in the interest of 'national security'. Whitlam was right when he tried to wind up Pine Gap.
18 Nov 2013 11:46:17pm
Australia wants what's best for Australia and Indonesia wants what's best for Indonesia. Who will be visionary and bold enough to get an agreement that satisfies both countries? Too much to ask?
19 Nov 2013 12:00:07am
Every Government attempts to collect intelligence on friends and enemies alike. It's just part of the game of international relations.
Australia is no better & no worse. But we broke the one golden rule - don't get caught.
Indonesia is not so naive as to imagine we don't spy on them. But when we allow ourselves to get publicly caught out, they have no option but to respond.
Many states actively spy on the Australian Government as well as Australian commercial interests. If any of them are dumb enough to get caught out the Australian indignation will be mighty and loud.
Could you imagine the uproar if it emerged that say the Chinese had listened in on every conversation Tony Abbot has made for the last three years.
We got caught with our hand in the cookie jar so now we need to atone for our trespasses, repent our past wicked ways and make sure we don't get caught next time.
Relationships (including the mutual intelligence efforts) will return to normal once Indonesia beats there chest and tells us we've been out of order.
The whole thing is a storm in a teacup.
That Guy:
19 Nov 2013 8:01:34pm
We didn't get caught. We got dobbed in because the US couldn't control its system.
Most Concerned:
19 Nov 2013 12:03:59am
One could be forgiven for thinking the ABC itself is trying to bring down the Australian government. For me - it started with Jim Middleton stirring up trouble with the Indonesian foreign minister and has been growing in strength ever since.
It feels like the ABC is extremely upset with the people's choice of new government.
It feels very much like it is the ABC that we should be most concerned, not the intelligence community for whom the ABC seems so hell bent on interfering. Don't we have laws to to protect us from this?
And Mr Abbott perhaps should follow protocol and keep his mouth shut. Also, could someone also put the never ending Indonesian aid fund cheque book out of reach for a while. Suddenly, I'm tired of being lectured by the Indonesians and I just know they will be demanding cash within a week.
19 Nov 2013 9:12:15am
MC, I don't need ABC or MSM to tell me how to think and how to vote. This is nothing to do with ABC, some people are only just now waking up and are realising that Abbott is not Chifley's Light on The Hill.
I knew it before.Treat people with respect, that's a part of being diplomatic.
19 Nov 2013 11:36:32am
Diplomacy is a two way street. We would be fools not to monitor them closely. The squawking of their self righteous and contemptuous foreign minister would suggest they have been deeply embarrassed. I wonder why? They are very quick to lecture us. And its not like their country is free of all that sinister crap they so easily ignore.
I agree - their hand will be out soon enough wanting Australian tax payers cash.
More concerning is that all these revelations came out of the US. I've always taught my kids that if you don't want something to be known, don't tell anyone - at all. Why the hell was this information so readily available to Snowdon in America? That's the breach of trust right there - don't tell America anything you don't want the world to know.
19 Nov 2013 1:23:21pm
I can't remember you treating any conservative politician with respect, double standards ?
19 Nov 2013 10:13:01pm
Hey MC, did you protest against the Murdoch press when they blatantly, openly and unashamedly finally brought down the Labor Government elected by the People?
We are the ones who are going to lose if Abbott alienates the Indonesians. Very many Australian companies do business there, if we are kicked out someone else will take our place. Your comment is pretty ill informed and if Abbott follows such a silly advice he will be digging his own political grave....
19 Nov 2013 12:10:23am
Andrew, it is not the role of Australian security agencies to invade peoples privacy. It might be tradition along with the other servile nation the UK to spy on behave of all the almighty USA, but this does not make it right. Time for Australia and the UK to show a bit of courage and not blindly follow the USA. I know it will be difficult for some , but it is possible to show independence and moral integrity on this issue which in the long time will the more desirable path.
19 Nov 2013 11:38:56am
So ignorance is a safe plan Fred.
That Guy:
19 Nov 2013 8:02:53pm
Fred, why do you and others always assume we're doing these things at the behest of the US?
I'm pretty sure the thoughts and intentions of the Indonesian leadership would be of interest to Australia in its own right.
19 Nov 2013 12:21:00am
As it is ?our American allies? spy on everybody, including their ?best and trusted friends? both in side America and globally. So why get our nose dirty and why not just say ?we never spy on our friends? but our American allies supply us with all the intelligence they think we need for their benefit?
After all what is Pine Gap for if not for spying on friends and enemies?
19 Nov 2013 12:32:37am
This is not a party political issue. Both parties are committed to a US alliance. The real iniquity of the situation is that much of the spying Australia does is not in the primary interest of Australia but in the interest of the US. Australian / US joint facilities are used in the service of a power that had bombed more than 50 countries since world war II. It is highly likely that some of the facilities are used to enable drones to be controlled when attacking target in other sovereign countries in the interests of the US.
This is therefore not a matter of one neighbour checking on another, but a matter of Australia acting as an agent for a highly aggressive military power. A power by the way, that seems unable to undertake intelligence work without the information being leaked or being wrong.
Australian's must ask the question of why a nation born in subservience to Britain has chosen to be subservient to the US. Some may argue that it is because a US alliance is required to protect Australia, but it is equally possible to argue that the US alliance places Australia at risk of being involved in all the little US wars and of being a target if the US gets into a big war.
Indonesia has every reason to worry that as a Muslim nation it may become a US target. Hence the Indonesian reaction is likely to be more than tit for tat small nation spying allegations. Australia is behving like an American State. Perhaps it is time we became an adult sovereign nation.
19 Nov 2013 10:50:25pm
We've been in a shooting war with Indonesia, they've invaded their neighbours and their home grown terrorists have killed Australians. I don't think we need prompting from the US to keep an eye on them.
19 Nov 2013 12:35:17am
There are a lot of people or country that hide something that they don't want to show and show the things that makes look good. Or it is possible that they hide the truth and show the false info. That could be why people or country own agencies to find out what is the truth.
19 Nov 2013 1:54:19am
Why are all the LNP supports shooting the messenger and criticising the ABC for reporting about the Snowdon leaks? It's a story, it affects our relationship with the Indonesians (a very important one) and it will be a test of our new foreign minister. The ABC is simply doing its job. Now let the diplomats do theirs.
19 Nov 2013 2:52:00am
Spying is an essential component of diplomatic relations. It is used to confirm intentions and goodwill amongst friends thus building trust. The elephant in the room is why are the media so intent on damaging relations between Australia and Indonesia?
To use an analogy, everyone knows that everyone else farts. The media has jumped up in a packed auditorium and shouted that Australia has just let one rip. Since Indonesia is sitting next to Australia she has no choice but to screw her nose up and fan with the hand.
The media just want to sell news, they don't care one iota about being responsible. This is not a story that needed airing.
19 Nov 2013 4:02:49am
I am an American catching up on what Australians are saying and I am encouraged to see so many people finding it outrageous these leaks are for intelligence capabilities, diplomatic relations and keeping our leaders and officials informed in their policy making decisions.
Secondly, as an American, I am HUMILIATED that we had a defector to Russia do all this.... US should have been running a tighter ship. Though, how do you plan on a defector who does targeted leaks at damaging the West intelligence capabilities? Whatever the case, the US dropped the ball in the Five Eye's.
Sorry Australia.
19 Nov 2013 10:51:37am
If it is necessary to keep our leaders informed then it is also necessary for the Russians/Chinese/Indonesians etc to be kept informed and being fair and just your so called defector is just doing that and helping them do it.
You should be proud of him as an American and not be HUMILIATED! May be Americans get humiliated only when they get found out?
?Trust? mean nothing in today?s world?except perhaps in the almighty dollar!
Yeah Great argument:
19 Nov 2013 4:16:06am
Yeah. Great argument. I mean, why waste time worrying about this sort of stuff? Let's stop obsessing about surveillance and leave the experts in security to get on with doing their jobs, which they obviously do very well under difficult circumstances and with everyone's democratic rights and interests at heart. And let's forget about pursuing Snowden too. I mean, after all it's no big deal. Everyone's doing the same sorts of things. Just gathering information and selling it on to make a few quid. What's the problem? So what if we bug phones, read other people's emails, and snoop on our own citizens. In the greater scheme of things, who cares? The bottom line is, if you're innocent you don't need to worry about being locked away for 17 years for something you haven't done. Or interrogated and tortured in another country by some bunch of murdering bastards. You'll be found to be innocent eventually and can sue for compensation and clear your name in the courts if you're alive and you've got the money to do it. And we should stop whining about China stealing our secrets too. I mean, we're all at it. What's the problem? And let's scrap this TPPA thing too. I mean, we're all trying to steal other people's business secrets and dodge copyright. Who cares? Storm in a tea cup.
Yeah. I can see your point. Great argument. Excellent.
PS Any bankers been jailed for laundering money yet?
19 Nov 2013 6:20:34am
Why am I not surprised that it is the ABC and Guardian Australia which have been the agents of destruction in Australia's relationship with Indonesia? The only missing suspect is SMH, where the brains trust must be overcome with jealousy that they were not in at the kill.
Indonesian official circles call Australia the White Snake; not really a complimentary term. Perhaps it should be applied to the ABC, where opinion leaders seem to hate Australian society and its values. As for Guardian Australia, we must hope that the venture is non-viable and that the UK parent decides not to continue the experiment. Circulation figures for Guardian UK show a steady decline and are now as low as 194,000. We must hope that Guardian UK goes the same way as SMH - a steady march to oblivion.
Yeah Great Argument:
19 Nov 2013 8:08:46am
Good points. There's nuthin worse than media outlets, websites or anyone else peddling un-Australian bastardry or talking the country down. I'm not some mindless jingoistic cretinous fool, but sometimes you've just gotta make a stand for God, the Queen and the flag. How dare the ABC, the Guardian and the SMH be permitted to spread this sort of venomous bile. It's wrong. Pure and simple. Even if it is the truth. They think they're clever. It's freedom of speech gone mad. There should be laws to stop this sort of thing, like there are in China. It wouldn't happen on talkback radio. Where's Alan Jones and Ray Hadley when you need 'em? Bring back Howard Sattler. They know how to deal with the Indonesians. Even if Tony Abbott doesn't. Australia's the greatest country in the world and anyone who says otherwise is just plain wrong.
19 Nov 2013 10:18:14pm
"How dare the ABC, the Guardian and the SMH be permitted to spread this sort of venomous bile."... Hey YGA, where were you when bloody Rupert Murdoch & Co. threw as much mud as he could on the Labor Government?... I told you guys, Abbott and his disgraceful tactic of lies and manipulation opened a Pandora's box... the genies are out and about, and only an Abbott defeat will return them to the box.... the sooner that happens, the better for this country!
get real:
19 Nov 2013 6:22:28am
from get real,
The reality of world history is that all man made disasters were only allowed to occur because of a failure(mega failure!) of effective intelligence or spying-eg 9/11, pearl harbour, WW2 (german rearmliment), world war 1 -how many such trategies have been prevented should be quantified. Counteres/people who complain only do so because they have something to hide Certainly Germany-the perpertrator of two world wars, and Indonesia with it mega corruption should be the last countries in the world to complain about having an eye on them.
Perhaps Australia could save the $600 Million in aid given annually to Indonesia.
Oh of course the alledged spying on Indonesia was KR idea in the first place!
19 Nov 2013 6:31:55am
So why is this issue so one sided? I have no doubt that the Australian intelligence services are active in other countries but why is there no discussion of the Indonesian intelligence services activities? The people who are providing this information seem to be targeting some countries and ignoring others. This is a targeted campaign against Australia designed to increase tensions and this information could have been made available before the election but wasn't.
19 Nov 2013 11:44:37am
Good questions!
It could be argued that Indonesia is doing everything it can to break the relationship with Australia. It could also be argued that someone is not happy with our new choice of government.
19 Nov 2013 7:03:17am
The damage is done, admit it and apologise.
Julie Bishop could appear in Indonesia in a bathing suit and speak until she was blue in the face, she will never undo what has been done. Indonesians don't like women telling them what to do.
Abbott was at CHOGM recently and made no inroads into the problem of asylum seekers or spying. Shows what contempt the Indonesians have for him.
Indonesia will not trust Australia again for a long long time. Our inept Prime Minister and Foreign Minister have well and truly goofed.
19 Nov 2013 7:08:45am
The ABC appears ready and willing to keep stirring the plot implying that it is Abbotts fault that the spying has taken place. I not that the Labor party are being very quiet about it all when in fact they were running the country at the time that the Indonesian President was being spied upon.
Surely as our National broadcaster they should act more responsibly and not fan the fires as they have been.
Gratuitous Adviser:
19 Nov 2013 8:37:07am
I'm confused. My interpretation of this interesting article is that it is bi-partisan and only adds slightly to what everyone (who's interested) knows already.
I am in agreement with Australia?s bi-partisan policy of not commenting on these types of issues. It's stupid to do otherwise.
What is cheesing my chops is the hypocritically convenient public condemnation of Australia by various South East Asian Muslim (I hope that religion has nothing to do with it) Governments and the opportunist Australian Greens.
While not the same issue, when looking at who is significantly supporting financially, and by effort, those suffering due to Typhoon Haiyan, it is not the Philippines neighbours but, leading the pack, the English speaking countries, namely Australia, US and the UK which some SEA leaders so quickly loudly condemn when convenient. On a per capita basis Australians should be very proud of their Government contribution and the separate contributions via the charities which, I think, are not included in the referred chart.
Refer: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/15/who-s-giving-to-the-philippines-and-who-isn-t.html
I?m amazed. Singapore is a very rich country and I have a lot of respect for the Lee family benevolent dictatorship, but Sing$40,000???..?wow. Bouquets to the UAE for their contribution.
By the by: Am I the only historically social democratic supporter that finds himself/herself turning off (mentally and sometimes by action) whenever a Labor speaker comes on? Listening to Fran this morning when she had Carr on, I immediately think that this all happened under your party's watch, including the passing of information to the USA and their subsequent employee leaks. Maybe I should give up my handle of Gratuitous Adviser to Carr.
Closet Romantic:
20 Nov 2013 7:06:57am
Hi Gratuitous Adviser
Also basically a centre left voter who has been turned more and more off Labor, would like to rhink its the hypocrisy and spin but I worry its the ageing process.
I mean parachuting Carr into the Senate and the ministry? It seemed the worst combo of populist and arrogant
Towards the end of the previous government I could no longer be bothered listening to what they had to say I knew what they would say and then they would do what ever was politically convienent as circumstances changed.
Its good to be adaptable, but not great to be unbelievable.
19 Nov 2013 7:38:57am
Because spying has now been made public, it is only natural that Indonesia will take action in a public way. The disclosures do raise issues however to the degree our alliance with the US can enable us to have strong relationships with other countries. Our relationship with Indonesia will endure simply because there be zones of interaction that will be overwhelmingly beneficial to both countries. Food security for Indonesia is likely to be one. Cooperation over refugees however is unlikely to be one nor was this ever likely to be the case. Operation Sovereign Borders needs to proceed to stop the boats based on non cooperation with Indonesia.
19 Nov 2013 8:02:52am
Very disappointing to see the Australian media, including the ABC and SMH (who recently published the story about the role of our diplomatic missions in intelligence collection), following the highly irresponsible Guardian in recklessly propagating material leaked by that traitor (not whistleblower) Snowden, currently residing in that stalwart of freedom and transparency, Putin's Russia. Just how is this 'revelation' in the public interest? Is exposing the operations of our intelligence agencies really going to benefit the average Aussie? Or is it going to give the Indonesians a very convenient excuse to get out of their obligations with respect to stemming the asylum-seeker traffic across their borders? Such leaks are no different to revealing classified specs, capabilities and weaknesses of our military assets (fighter aircraft, naval vessels, etc.) to potential adversaries.
People who naively question why we do this will do well to remember that, while relations (until now) have been relatively good with the SBY government, Indonesia has not always been our friend and good neighbour. This is the country that allowed Islamist terrorists to flourish within its borders until the problem literally blew up in its face. This is the country that ordered a mini-genocide in East Timor in 1999 and whose army continues to perpetrate atrocities in Papua. Of course, our government needs to know what their leadership is up to, what they really think about a range of issues and not simply rely on what they say to our face (which can be diametrically opposite to reality).
The fact is that governments need to know the full picture when dealing with countries who do not share our values, our culture and whose political, military and security system is riddled with corruption. Also, contrary to assertions about such activity being illegal, countries cannot prevent others from intercepting telecommunications from their own territory (including diplomatic missions). You can be sure that China will have a flagship intelligence collection asset when they finish building their new embassy in Canberra (using imported Chinese labour).
The PM's performance on 7.30 was unfortunate ('research', 'using it for good', etc.) and he should have stuck the the bipartisan 'no comment' response. The less said officially the better.
Dean R Frenkel:
19 Nov 2013 8:04:51am
This disgraceful abuse of surveillance practices has nothing to do with terrorism (which is the only justification for such powers) and Indonesia has every right to be disgusted by Australia spying on its President. Indeed all Australians have reason to be equally upset. Clearly our Gov't and its 'unintelligent' spies have absolutely no respect for basic privacy. Neither can be trusted. The behaviour of Australia's incompetent spooks is appalling which is why Snowden, Assange and Manning are authentic heroes. Do you know anyone who works for the 'Attorney General's Department'?
19 Nov 2013 8:21:44am
I agree with this remark entirely - Australia too willingly follows the practices of the USA which have for example appalled and angered the Germans - why is anyone attempting to justify the immoral and illegal activities of phone tapping? Let alone it be disgusting, exceedingly ill mannered and ungracious - the act of an enemy not a friend.
Forget relationships - the damage is incalculable particularly when you consider the culture and professional etiquette of easterner's - the ignorance is astonishing and almost unbelievable which now of course regrettably is not given the caliber of leadership in both our country and the USA.
19 Nov 2013 8:57:33am
Dean, there is no evidence of any incompetence from ASD. There is the reality of the US alliance so if activities of this nature are unappealing then you really have to question being part of that alliance.
D R Frenkel:
19 Nov 2013 9:48:46am
Coogera, there is actually is evidence of incompetence by Australia's spy network. For one, remember the Hilton Hotel raid? Re the US alliance, I consider that question to be separate from most of the issues here. For me the issues are the sanctity of privacy (if there is no terrorist activity), the behaviour of spies, the willingness of Australian and US Governments to habitually abuse their surveillance powers, the ubiquity of surveillance in our society, the believability and trustability of Governments and the apathy of citizens to unsavoury dev developments.
19 Nov 2013 10:02:24am
dean, it is about the US alliance because without our obligations under that, we would have been unlikely to have been engaged in this level of spying activity.
Gee What's it all about Alfie:
19 Nov 2013 9:44:49pm
Has no-one yet worked out why this phone hacking and spying is going on? OK. Well.....look....it's all i.e. totally, wholly and without exception, related to furthering our business and financial interests. That is the top, middle and bottom line of the deal. That is what Foreign relations are all about since the Berlin wall fell over. Money and business. And gathering any information or advantage that can be obtained and put to use by our global corporates. Terrorism (when and where was the last terrorist attack in Australia? In NZ? What's that got to do with the Indonesian President's phone conversations?), national security (exchange, collaboration, co-operation and mutual trust built up over time are the best forms of national security - so how does hacking your neighbours' President's phone help that process exactly?), democracy (can no-one else see the irony of blanket surveillance by govts of their own people to "protect" democracy?)......these things are just complete bullsh*t for consumption by the masses for political convenience. It is all i.e. entirely, about money. For your own sakes, wake up.
gerard oosterman:
19 Nov 2013 8:10:03am
Indonesia is unlikely to take back boats. The only way out is to give Indonesia a few naval vessels as well.
At the same time, we could consider not only buying the boats from the poor fishermen but also to buy up the water that the boats float upon as well as all rudders, cleats, nails, varnish etc. that the boats are made of.
It is the only way forward.
19 Nov 2013 8:11:32am
I think the Indonesians are making fools of Australia. Holding us to ransom with their boatmen and corrupt officials.
Who can blame us trying to put a stop to it.
NO more Foreign Aid to Indonesia.
Get the hell out of that place. Go find other 'friends' Sri Lanka, India, Iran, China, Singapore, Russia etc. are eager to be friends.
19 Nov 2013 8:41:14am
Abbott and Co thought Indonesians were fools, not a way to treat your neighbours. Respect is the right currency here....
19 Nov 2013 11:43:02am
in my opinion... would be nice if you guys given a mature comment for both countries relationship... learn from a mistake, not thrown " bullet" to your government and poison neighbourhood... ausy given aid to Indonesia.. Indonesia has given aid to your economy as well... don't let you bite your own tongue after seen the reality...
Ray Manta:
19 Nov 2013 8:21:23am
Were we doing this for our own intelligence needs, or on behalf of the Americans, with whom we obviously shared the information?
get real :
19 Nov 2013 8:30:27am
from get real again,
I would confidently predict that history will should that the leaking by the idiots like Snowdon will result in millions of innocent people being killed around the world. It makes me nauseated to read about the bleeding hearts who support such people. If they don't care about their safety will (although they chose to ride behind some of the most dangerous regimes in the world!!) so be it-best of luck- but their actions should not impact on the safety of the free world.
19 Nov 2013 2:24:34pm
Your "free world" where the press has to be censored lest the citizens find out the truth about what their government is doing?
19 Nov 2013 8:31:55am
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
This exercise took place during the rudd/Gillard/greens government & who knows where this leak comes from.
We recall that labor has always been weak about security & post war labor people at the highest level of government were sympathetic to the USSR & traitors to Australia.
Is this history repeating itself?
19 Nov 2013 10:22:49pm
"This exercise took place during the rudd/Gillard/greens government"... No, spying on the Indonesians has a long history and it didn't stop on the 7th of July. Howard didn't invade East Timor without first gathering intelligence on the Indonesian Government and the military... Wake up!
R.Ambrose Raven:
19 Nov 2013 8:36:23am
Compare and contrast the worship of ?security? and ?intelligence? services (especially as the latter is usually striking absent from the former) with the dismissiveness attached to actually ensuring the progress and stability that in a non-Imperialist world would render spying a public embarrassment (it already being largely unnecessary).
One and only one useful point will arise from ?our? dreadfully appalling refugee policies - how appallingly inappropriate our current attitudes and policies are to what are well-known economic, social, and environmental challenges. Yet all our littoral neighbours are suffering problems of the same general type as those driving the refugees ? increasing social and economic tensions, degradation of the carrying capacity of their environment, violence and corruption, and poverty.
Continuing with Rudd's stupid Melanesian Solution promises to cause as much damage to Australia's standing in the region, and PNG itself, than it might do to any refugees. But then, why would a revenge-obsessed traitorous control freak or a soul-mate of the Holy Roman Inquisition care about the international tensions such a spectacularly stupid policy would create?
After all, with the enthusiastic assistance of a complicit media, Tony Abbott has convinced himself and us that his aggression towards Indonesia and Malaysia while in Opposition is now simply gone and forgotten. Similarly, Australia?s spying not merely on Indonesia but on senior Indonesian political figures is waved away without comment, the assumption being that ?we? all play the same game.
It is very likely to fail. Just as it is the refugees themselves who are viciously punished for the sins of the people-smugglers, the feeble governance institutions of PNG are being perverted to suit the political convenience of a grubby politician. It can only further destabilise fragile institutions, inflame tensions, and lead to a crisis at the Robben (sorry, Manus) Island concentration camp itself.
As with spending on Aboriginal affairs, what is in fact keep-quiet (AusAID) money is very largely wasted because it is ideologically utterly opposed to any measures that would truly benefit Pacific Islanders. Again as with Aboriginal affairs, there is total and absolute refusal to accept that there can be any development pathway other than that the shopkeeper capitalism that marked the rise of European nations.
We need a radically better, much more interventionism, and certainly more humane approach. They, too, live here.
19 Nov 2013 8:39:16am
Whoever spies on whom, be it Labor or the Liberals, the Indonesians did not rock the boats (no pun intended) with our Labor government...Abbott/Bishop/ Morrison have been very arrogant, undiplomatic, so there you have it: treat people better, no Navy boats....there's no war.
19 Nov 2013 8:49:10am
Spying on Indonesia is one thing, spying on the President and his wife is another.
Abbott should follow Obama's example when he apologised to German chancellor. Abbott should apologise to the Indonesian president and to his wife.
Abbott is continuing his destructive foreign policy even accepting Sri Lankan torture in order to appease a few red necks and Shock Jocks in Australia.
The conservative British Prime Minister conducted himself in a dignified way and condemned torture.
19 Nov 2013 8:49:45am
Another stuff up of giant proportions under Labor's 6 year tenure.
Will we ever live down the legacy of the Rudd+Brown/Gillard+Brown+Milne/Rudd+Milne governments?
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 11:40:10am
"Will we ever live down the legacy of the Rudd+Brown/Gillard+Brown+Milne/Rudd+Milne governments?"
Not with you on the ball and the Murdoch press on the case, Cherna.
No doubt, the Coalition of "no excuses" will be blaming everybody else for everything for the next three years at least.
19 Nov 2013 12:51:23pm
Oh I don't know, I reckon in 3 years time there will be a close contender...
19 Nov 2013 8:50:17am
Align yourself with the Americans and this is what you can expect.
Morality - I'm not sure it is a word in the American dialect.
Jay Somasundaram:
19 Nov 2013 9:00:53am
There is a significant difference between the way Obama responded to Germany's anger and Abbott's response.
What was the reason for the difference? Why was Indonesia treated differently to Germany?
19 Nov 2013 10:55:27pm
Because for the one and only time, Abbott has said the right things
19 Nov 2013 9:01:46am
The only thing that has happened here is that the ASD has broken the first rule of espionage, do not get caught. Everyone spies on everyone else, that is a fact of international life. The problem is how far do you go? Hacking the phone of the leader of a foreign leader in a country that we have close ties, is one step too far and the spooks should have had the sense to draw the line at a lower level. Poor judgement is the real culprit.
Indonesia's reaction is the same as that would have occurred here had it been divulged that they had been hacking Abbott's (or Rudd's or Gillard's) phone when holding the postion of PM. This will blow over but in the interim there may be a few more asylum seeker boats arriving on our doorstep and perhaps a few less cattle sold to Indonesia.
19 Nov 2013 9:07:09am
The Cold War's over, but the espionage is more extensive than ever. It isn't all about the "war on terror", although that got us the excuses to put forward legislation to allow such extensive surveillance. Then we get leaks that reveal just how extensive this is, and how conveniently cooperative Australia has been with the US' NSA, as well as what we've been up to on our own behalf. I doubt we even know just how extensive this is yet. Anyone who thinks the same things making the NSA a scandal in the US aren't affecting us in Australia is deluded. But I doubt national security is anything more than an excuse. Spying on Indonesia's president isn't going to make us more secure, but it might give us leverage on other matters. It's about power. Spying on Australians by Australia isn't about anything other than power, either.
It's surprising how many LNP voices are raised in outrage that the spying has been revealed. Usually they bemoan government intrusions. Guess they don't care when it's them in charge.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 9:19:35am
Andrew, nobody is arguing that Australia shouldn't be gathering intelligence in (and from) Indonesia.
But what Australia shouldn't be doing is hacking the phone of the leader of a neighbouring country and his wife, people we've spent a lot of time trying to build trust and good relations with.
Can you imagine what would be the reaction here if it was found that Inonesia had been bugging the personal phone of an Australian PM ?
That Guy:
19 Nov 2013 8:11:01pm
"But what Australia shouldn't be doing is hacking the phone of the leader of a neighbouring country and his wife..."
Because that's how we find out whats really going on!
So when SBY gets off the phone with our PM after agreeing to some proposal, and then rings Mrs SBY and a few dozen ministers and says "Guess what I just told the PM we'd do.... ha ha ha" we know we were taken for a ride.
How can people not see that the leaders of our nearest neighbour, who we haven't always gotten on well with, are a viable and legitimate foreign intelligence target?
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 9:27:48pm
Presumably then, That Guy, for the reasons you've outlined, you would have no objection if you found out the Indonesians, or the Chinese were bugging Abbott's phone?
In fact, why not just cut out the pretence and put 24 hour surveillance on all political leaders and publish the web-feed on the net for access by all? That would surely democratize global foreign relations and allow everybody to know what's going on?
That Guy:
19 Nov 2013 10:05:26pm
Unlike yourself, I'm realistic enough to recognise that foreign intelligence services are already targeting our leaders' communications.
So I expect our security services (i.e. ASIO & ASD) to provide proper security advice to government officials, and for those officials not to use their phones to discuss sensitive or important issues.
It's not our problem if the Indonesians didn't wise up to the fact that phones are not secure forms of communications. And we were looking at them, there are at least half a dozen countries that could also looking at them; most of whom probably aren't nearly as nice as we are.
I'd be more pissed of to discover our PM or FM had been talking on open lines on things they shouldn't be.
I suggest you drop the hyperbole and recognise that the world is a complex place. We need to know what other countries' intentions and actions are for our own national interests; the actions of ASD that have been leaked are one way to achieve that.
19 Nov 2013 9:32:54am
yes a true shame the Indonesians were doing a magnificent ,humanitarian job tell Abbott to keep the boats here, we must give them full credit for help with asylum seekers who should be here,and on the other hand, we should spy on them as they have very dubious religious beliefs which could harm our security if left uncheck ,,but Indonesian's well done keep Abbott in his place, please,i have put Indonesia back on my visit list after the murder of reporters.
Ghost of Christmas Present:
19 Nov 2013 9:38:08am
The ABC is culpable in destroying the Australia Indonesia relationship. Edward Snowden is a traitor and a puppet of the Russian Government but at "our" ABC he is regaled as a whistleblower.
19 Nov 2013 10:48:54am
Edward Snowden has simply told what time of day it is for our security and spy angencies.."It's high noon"!!!
How dare these agencies trample over the liberties and rights of citizens - how dare they behave in a way that risks our relations with close neighbours. Snowden should be given an award for turning the light on the outrageous behaviours of our intelligence and spy agencies.
For Australians, it's time we had a bill of rights such that we can protect ourselves against these intrusions on our Liberty!
Ghost of Christmas Present:
19 Nov 2013 12:25:29pm
A Bill of Rights to protect what? The rights of Russian spys and American traitors to undermine the Australian National Interest?
19 Nov 2013 12:54:21pm
Australian interest hasn't been undermined because someone "Told" of what was happening - don't put the cart before the horse...Australian security and intelligence services have over reached and in doing sothey have undermined Australian National Interest.
Clearly you're very happy for our intell services to operate however they damn well like so long as we aren't told about what they are doing and their activities are kept beyond public scrutiny and knowledge - if they are to continue to act in this way, then a Bill of Rights would serve protect the citizenry where their over reach tramples the privacy (or defined rights) of "Ordinary" Australian citizens..
Sadly, you seem content and satisfied with shooting the messenger ..how typically "Right wing"...
That Guy:
19 Nov 2013 8:14:40pm
Did you not even read the article? There are multiple pieces of legislation, an independent Inspector General, a Joint Parliamentary Committee, and the respective Ministers (Foreign, Defence, & AG) who are responsible for oversight of the AIC.
Perhaps you should read up on them before you go accusing people of illegal activity.
Just because YOU didn't know about it does not mean anybody acted illegally or inappropriately.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 1:21:44pm
Ghost, how was bugging the phone of SBY and his wife in Australia's national interest?
If terrorism is the prime concern (and presumably it was and is), do you think potential Bali bombers are going to discuss future operations with the elected leader of Indonesia?
And if the concerns are more mundane than terrorism, then we really need to know for what reason Australia saw fit to jeopardise relations with Indonesia by bugging the phones of its leaders.
What in particular warrants that risk?
Ghost of Christmas Present:
20 Nov 2013 7:51:59am
Well Mark. Next time a country like East Timor is invaded or heaven forbid there is another Ballibo 5 incident and the question is raised "who knew about this" you might ask the same question. That said it is unlikely that such issues would be discussed over a mobile phone so I am inclined to agree with you. But back to my earlier post the release of information by Snowden does our National interest no good what so ever.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 11:37:01am
Ghost, how can Snowden be a traitor if he is not an Australian citizen?
Do you mean he is a traitor to another country . . . . the US, as Claus von Stauffenberg was a traitor to Germany, as Thomas Paine was a traitor to Great Britain, as Mordechai Vanunu is a traitor to Israel, as Hamiora Pere was a traitor to New Zealand, as Adolf Tolkachev was for the Soviet Union?
Ghost of Christmas Present:
20 Nov 2013 7:47:25am
Mark. I referenced Snowden as an American Traitor i.e. he is a traitor to American Interests. I would add that the close affiliation of the "five eyes" nations arguably makes his information releases a major threat to our national interest.
Ghost of Christmas Present:
19 Nov 2013 9:48:43am
Every ABC radio program (including Triple J) and TV news has led with this spy story. In Canberra where it has been revealed that Labor planned to axe 14,000 public service jobs the ABC has been focussing solely on the spy story and a Green puff piece that Australia could face legal action over failing to respond to climate change. The ABC demonstrates more media bias than News Corp but is less accountable.
19 Nov 2013 11:05:36am
I heard about the 14000 PS jobs on RN Breakfast this morning - it even had the Minister on- so what are you on about?
Goodness me-can you rusted on LNP storm troopers lie straight in bed?
19 Nov 2013 1:10:54pm
"The ABC demonstrates more media bias than News Corp but is less accountable."
Nearly choked on my cuppa at this one.
Been following the hacking trial in Britain?
Thought not!
19 Nov 2013 10:01:45am
Of course all Governments spy - it is just that the Anglo axis of the US-UK-Canada and Australia does more of it and do it better than any other country or group of countries.
I understand "Echelon" was formed after WW2 and was quite succesful during the cold war.
As for the claim that 'WE" only use it for 'Good"- absolute rubbish- we use it for the good of our self interest-be it security or more like likely commerical interests.
Saying things like that is which by inference is suggesting that others (Indonesia) do not use spying for "good' is probably more insulting than the actualy spying.
To give him some credit-apart from a feeble and childish attempt on the 7.30 report to pin the blame on the previous Government when he asked Leigh Sales 'when did it happen" TA has stuck to the 'no comment " line.
19 Nov 2013 10:07:54am
If Australia's intelligence agencies are halfway competent, they would have proof Indonesia is, and has been, spying on us. So we have a perfect defence. Why is it not being used? Answer: because it is in Australia's interest to let Indonesia play its little game. To frustrate it would annoy them far more than the spying itself.
19 Nov 2013 10:08:25am
Interesting that some are defending spying of Indonesia. Wait until they get the news that government is spying on own citizens. Looks a lot like North Korea or Iran.
19 Nov 2013 10:22:50am
All governments in the world are guilty but don't like being found out. Going on some of these comments they live in la la land.
19 Nov 2013 10:27:07am
How clever was it for Dennis Richardson to describe Edward Snowden as a "Garden Variety Criminal"???...how many Garden Variety criminals have information like that released regarding the tapping of of the phone of Indonesias president.
Dennis - I suggest that you helped bring this about with your absurd, provocative and disgusting appraisal of Snowden.
Chew it up brother!
19 Nov 2013 10:34:03am
I normally wouldn't comment on something like this.
But it seems that this info was in the International realm well before the Guardian and the ABC picked it up on news services.
What's exercising my mind is how much of this activity is done by Australia of its own motion. And, how much, of that stuff alleged by 'Snowden' is sourced by another party to 'sharing agreements' that Australia has in an ongoing relationship.
And thirdly, I have to say, I thought Tony Abbott was getting his act together but, the activities of Bishop and Morrison is just sheer ineptitude and buffoonery. Arrogant twerps. Their conduct has each been embarrassing beyond belief.
This matter needs to be sorted and, put in the past before the two elections in Indonesia.
As an Australian citizen, I'm demanding our Government puts in a maximin effort towards getting relations with the Indonesian Government and its people back to normal.
A lot hinges on it.
19 Nov 2013 10:36:57am
No ABC bias here.
This article completely fails to mention Labor, Rudd, Gillard, smith or the fact that this occured in 2009. In fact the only politician it mentions is Phillip Ruddock who had not been Attorney-General for two years when this took place.
19 Nov 2013 12:37:51pm
I understand ignorance can be used as an excuse, but....
'This' occurs all the time and has done for many years (shock, all over the world); the only bit relevant specifically to 2009 is the fact that Snowden had access to documents of that small point in time. It could have been 1968, or last week, it really doesn't matter. The problem is not who was in power at the time, it is how to deal with it now. And how to deal with those who rat out their countries to the all too willing media despite signing a pledge to do the exact opposite.
Your bias statement is factually correct, there is none. If the ABC was biased towards Labor, they wouldn't have printed the leaked story at all - to protect Labor. To be honest, I wish they hadn't. The fallout here could be long term and quite damaging (eg, what if they deny us airspace??)
If you want to discuss political media bias, or perhaps complicity, ask why the NT News didn't run a front page story announcing the arrival of an asylum seeker boat turning up in Darwin. I mean, it would have made a nice change from crocs and aliens, surely...
19 Nov 2013 10:49:44am
Until now I've tended to give the whistle blowers and their supporters a sympathetic ear. But no more and I'm thinking their acts are more treasonous than any Government spying. Abbott has described the act of intelligence gathering as something all nations do and for good reason. In other words to give reassurance that Nations claiming to be freinds of Australia actually are. I also happen to think that Indonesia by its very innaction on people smuggling and thumbing their nose at Australia efforts to stop it is good reason for them to come under greater scrutiny. Like surveillance systems in neighbourhoods, there is no reason to fear them if all you are doing is above board. Diplomacy with Indonesia and under their current Governmenty is all one way traffic, their way or the highway. So Abbott should maintain his resolve, and if the diplomatic relations sour then so be it. Maybe it's now time to be firing a few shots across the bows of Indonesian vessels attemptinfg to enter our waters and to start pulling aid programs from there. Diplomacy was wrecked a long time ago and all Indonesia has been doing is testing our resolve.
19 Nov 2013 4:50:58pm
I love your acceptance of a police state. You'll whinge all day if something smacks of being 'nanny state', but when it comes to the expansion of government power and intrusion into the lives of ordinary people, well, what exactly are you so afraid of that you want all that surveillance?
19 Nov 2013 6:19:40pm
Ah yes the first of the so called libatarians no doubt who's bleating about anything from photographic Identification cards to personal security camera's thinks that is "nanny state" mentality. I see it as nothing more than protecting my own from those who have been given licence by the likes of these civil libatarians to do as they may. Nanny State stuff is the QLD and puppet state laws against bikies that gets up my nose. The Australian Intelligence organisations are looking out for Australians interests and not some harassing organisation for harrassment sake. But then I'm from the era that grew up not having to lock doors or fear about who was walking the streets at night and respect and trust was the norm. Sadly that era is long gone and not possible any more.
19 Nov 2013 11:00:37am
i think this is an excellent non partisan article. I therefore find it surprising as well as disturbing that there are so many comments from the right criticising the ABC for its reporting of the issue.
Seems an LNP head office coordinated directive to its storm troopers to hit the diversion buttons.
I WANT to know what my Government is up to- I may not want to and do not need to know the details all of the time but I insist on being informed so that I will decide for myself as to whether I want to know the exact facts.
I am reminded of the lies we were told which led the the Vietnam and Iraqi wars- I am also reminded of the crap Abbott feeds us on aslyum seekers- we- meaning us in the West have created situations as in Lebanon- Libya- Iraq-Syria and elsewhere which spawn asylum seekers.
Thank you ABC-thank you Guardian-thank you whistle blowers- wherever and whoever you are- for lifting some of the secrect behind which our Governments hide stuff they think we are should not know.In a democracy we have a right to know everything.
19 Nov 2013 2:20:23pm
It is your right to know everything competing with the Government's right to keep some things secret.
19 Nov 2013 4:52:12pm
The government has no rights.
19 Nov 2013 5:54:52pm
You mean they don't have the right to tax us? I wont my money back.
19 Nov 2013 7:06:23pm
But taxation is not a secret- it is subject to parliamentary and electorate scrutiny.
In answer to your question about secrecy the Government may have a right to keep some details of how it may pursue policy secret but not the policy.
19 Nov 2013 7:41:20pm
I consider my rigth to know everthing is stronger than the Government's right to secrecy-particularly when it comes to anything which could lead to conflict-abuse of human rights-environmental deprivation or affect our economy-like the proposed and so far secret TPP agreement.
See Senator Warren in the US is demanding more transparency from the President on the TPP. Where are our Senators demanding the same tranparency from our Government?
get real yet again:
19 Nov 2013 11:00:46am
Dear PQ,
Of course the government is 'spying' on it's of citizens. That amazingly, how crimes such as murders and robberies etc are solved.
To this of course we need to add 'our citizens' who are linked to overseas terrorist organisations and the like. I would expect the government to 'spy' on these people-or would you like to have a bomb go off in a school or church in your neighbourhood!!??.
19 Nov 2013 4:53:30pm
You mistake spying for investigation. Investigations are warranted and targeted. Spying such as you describe is indiscriminate. And when the cables get leaked, often embarassing.
Alison Cann:
19 Nov 2013 11:24:14am
Our intelligence tells us that our intelligence agencies are gathering information but the information that they were gathering did not gather that much between friends.
19 Nov 2013 11:27:47am
One would have to have their head in the sand or be very naive to believe that spying on other countries does not exist. Because of a lack of diplomacy another Rabbott stuff up comong up.
Mike R:
19 Nov 2013 11:34:06am
Quite a well balanced article considering where it appears_the comments however are another matter.
Yet another mess created by the labour party which is left to the liberals to clean up. Just add it to all the others problems the Labour/Green alliance have created_NBN, debt, boats, productivity, labour laws etc. etc.
The attitude of the Labour cheer leaders such as ABC/Fairfax/Oakes in the press gallery never fails to amaze as they give their mates in the Labour/greens party a pass and blame the Liberals for things that occurred under Rudd/Gillard. What next I suppose the money wasted and the lives lost in the insulation fiasco will be the Liberals fault as well or was it the Liberals that managed to put the live cattle trade on hold damaging relations with Indonesia. Sorry thats right, the liberals are resonsible for fires and typhoons, how silly of me to forget.
It is a shame when ideology trumps the national interest_all many of my friends associates see is a bunch of journalists who can't handle the fact that their side lost. It might be time to pick your dummys up off the floor, put the toys back in your cot and put the national interest first instead of the your petty ideology kids.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 1:49:28pm
Mike R, given the phone-hacking in question happened under Labor's watch and would presumably need to have been approved by either Faulkner or Fitzgibbon, it's something of a stretch for you to talk of some conspiracy hatched by a perceived Labor-aligned media to play up the story to get at the Coalition.
Now, perhaps if the strains of public life are all too much for the poor, shrinking violets in the Coalition ranks, they should not have volunteered for the responsibilities that come with it?
19 Nov 2013 2:38:06pm
Yeah. And don't let any of that nasty truth get out. Truth is not in the national interest, apparently. We need to censor our press in order to preserve our freedom, no?
19 Nov 2013 11:35:16am
What intrigues me is the fact that this information was very available during the end of the Rudd Gov't. It only now comes out ? Very suspect indeed !
With the hysterical ranting from our ALPBC and UnFairfax, it seems that this has just occurred under the new Gov't. No comment anywhere from Rudd or Carr ? Anywhere on the ALPBC or UnFairfax ? Oh wait, there is one tiny reference deep in Fran Kelly's interview, then conveniently brushed aside.
Further, no reporting of the well known Indo spying on us, it is definitely going on and our Jakarta Embassy was definitely and admittedly bugged by Indo not so long ago.
So what ! All Gov't's spy on all Gov't's duh ! They spy on us little folk as well, better get used to it.
Still, it seems no opportunity is missed right now to throw rocks at the new Gov't, even if they clearly belong to the previous delinquents.
Then the "boat babble". Where was all this confected outrage when the boats were coming left, right and centre and nearly all unreported here on Aunty or UnFairfax ? We had to go to Shaz on CI on Mike Smith's site to see what was going on. No weekly reporting of the facts either, just spin, rhetoric and psychobabble from the ALP. Only now they require time/date/nationality/etc etc ? Ridiculous !
No condemnation from any Oz media of the Indo's setting bloody Anonymous on us either?
Poor fellow my country. Outrageous !
Poisonous Mushroom:
19 Nov 2013 12:49:47pm
So Kedjy, are you telling me that Tony and Julie had their very dismissive responses drafted by Rudd?
I may be wrong but I think the responses were Abbott's and Bishop's alone, with neither being prepared to give Indonesia the assurances that Obama gave Germany.
It seems to me that Abbott might also protest if it were to come out during Australia's next election campaign that Indonesia had tapped an Australian PM's phone to share the results with other countries.
Abbott wanted the job desperately. Now its time for Abbott and Bishop to do the job without insulting Indonesia with what the Indonesian Foreign Minister says on a public video are wooden, dismissive statements.
19 Nov 2013 1:35:12pm
Only an uninformed person would think that Indo is Not surveilling key Ozzies right now. We know China is.
Anonymous will provide all their hacking results to key Indo officials. We have educated their best and brightest at our Uni's, do you not think they have been employed in similar endeavours by their nation?
What responses would you make PM ?
With many Aussies injured by Indo extremists and the region harbouring many fundamentalist groups, I think we are well served to try and know what the heck is going on inside our nearest neighbour ( my response).
It appears that the incoming gov't will be apologising for the last 6 years for a long time yet.
Embarrassment sits at the feet of Rudd and Carr and the ABC and Fairfax.
Poisonous Mushroom:
19 Nov 2013 2:28:22pm
Kedjy, are you complaining that others expect Abbott and Bishop to do the job they are paid to do and that Indonesia will not let Abbott and Bishop dismiss them as mushrooms.
Abbott now has the job he so desperately wanted and its time he started doing it, warts and all. But I guess that might be difficult if you still wish to treat everyone as mushroom, providing wooden, dismissive responses to the President of another nation.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 1:38:41pm
Kedjy, be interested to know why you think "this information was very available during the end of the Rudd Gov't"?
19 Nov 2013 2:41:00pm
They just know, Mark. Just like "Only an uninformed person would think that Indo is Not surveilling key Ozzies right now." Despite a total lack of evidence, "informed persons" just KNOW.
Chris L:
19 Nov 2013 1:42:44pm
You're concerned about the timing of the news? What was News Ltd doing if the story was available?
You want comment from Rudd or Carr? I thought you didn't want to hear from them any more. Who is running this country?
"Where was all this confected outrage when the boats were coming left, right and centre and nearly all unreported here on Aunty or UnFairfax ?"
It was all over News Ltd and the Liberal Party website and billboards. According to Abbott he was helping the people smugglers by broadcasting this information.
Oddly enough I did see articles at ABC about refugees during the Labor government, but accusations of bias don't really need to be true do they?
19 Nov 2013 11:37:54am
I suspect if the two current governments had a better relationship this may have been dealt with in private behind closed doors.
Indonesia have been at odds with Abbott since he began his 'stop the boats' mantra 3 years ago.
Of course everyone spies on everyone else. It's na?ve to think otherwise. But I agree it's a bit much tapping the phone of a PM during peace time.
19 Nov 2013 12:55:48pm
Well said Barnesy- any 'adult" would have known that to be a 'macho man" and to threaten Indonesia with "turning back the boats" or 'buy the boats' may go down well with the rednecks at home but it would not go down at all well with Indonesia and neither would the 'our spying does good" bit.
TA is begining to reap the fruits of what he has sown- it did not take long.
Watch his fellow bully "kids" cry "foul".
19 Nov 2013 11:47:00am
There is no public interest in releasing this information. Fairfax, the Guardian and the ABC should hang their heads in shame. Disgraceful.
19 Nov 2013 12:48:33pm
The bear is wrong. This is at the very heart of what democratic citizens should know about their own government
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 1:37:06pm
There is no public interest in knowing what the government are doing in the name of the people they are supposed to represent?
I guess we should just demand continuing ignorance from our "fourth estate" and trust the government to always do what's best, eh TBear?
Chris L:
19 Nov 2013 1:44:56pm
You're saying an ignorant public is the way to go, or are you simply in favour of Australians only getting news from Al Jazeera?
John of WA:
19 Nov 2013 12:12:45pm
I wonder if the likes of Assange, Snowdon and Manning feel a self satisfied sense of achievement about such outcomes...
19 Nov 2013 2:09:14pm
If you have enough people call you a hero it would be easy to believe it.
They are probably reading quite selectively at the moment which would reinforce their hero status.
Meanwhile potential copy cats are reading the adoration that they receive in some quarters and think that they would like to feel that adoration and fame.
"I didn't do it for my 15 mins of fame I did it because I want the Govt to be transparent"
Tom Martyr:
19 Nov 2013 12:17:18pm
It's not technically a leak, it's more likely a technical interception which seems to happen more and more these days and more often than not it's intentional, especially if we want our neighbour to know surrepticiously that we're aware of their real intention and feeling on our current negiotiations.
Does it not seem strange that this has been publicised abroad and locally as more of a personal slight on an individual (Yudhoyono and the Mrs) rather than a massive International inccident and potential standoff over valid issues of sovereignty?. That being said, the Indonesions apparently can't build boats to rescue drowning asylum seekers off their own coast so a naval threat isn't exactly a promise of destruction.
It would be remiss of us to NOT monitor our immediate neighbours since they outnumber us and look set to overtake us ecconomically in the not to distant future with their emerging middle class. It matters very little which side of politics enacted the program but i would suggest it goes back a lot further than Rudd or Howard. At a guess it probably ramped up around the time of the Darwin invasion circa WW2 when Indo was analysed as an area of massive strategic importance and/or a staging point for future threats far exceeding the need for Intel even in our current era.
Right now Indonesia need our markets and Imports. Right now we need their co-operation in the areas of Asylum shoppers and regional terrorism threats. Its not a perfect relationship thats for sure but this is unlikely to bury it. At the same time it's unlikely to to be forgotten in short order and in all likelyhood it'll only increase covert activities on both shores.
19 Nov 2013 12:21:03pm
The allegations stem from leaks about intellegence operations in 2009. A time when Labor was in power and therefore just another mess they have left for the current government to clean up. As for all the hypertheticals about what happened in the past under other governments thats just what they are HYPERTHETICAL. If Indonesia wishes to cause us "pain"as has been reported then all we have to do is withdraw $1million dollars of aid for every illegal boat they allow to sail into our territorial waters. Pain can be shared. If they truly believe in an honest and open relationship with the CURRENT government, then perhaps they can avoid all media including social and work via the recognised diplomatic channels.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 1:32:35pm
Barry, wars happen because of diplomacy such as yours.
Let's reflect, by way of paraphrase, your version through Indonesia's eyes, shall we?
'If Australia wishes to spy on us, then all we have to do is turn a blind eye to the people using our country as a transit area to depart for Australia by boat. Pain can be shared. If they truly believe in an honest and open relationship with the CURRENT government, then perhaps they should learn to trust us rather than listen in to the phone calls of our leaders."
19 Nov 2013 5:13:51pm
They HAVE been turning a blind eye for decades.
The diplomacy I refferred to was that their president has taken to social media in conjunction with many of his ministers in their local media - wouldnt it be better to talk government to government?
We might sometimes complain about our media (as so many have done on here) I know there are many Indonesians that would like the openess that we are fortunate to have in this country.
PS Thanks ribald - great contribution to the discussion lol.
19 Nov 2013 3:32:10pm
barry, first learn how to spell hypothetical.
19 Nov 2013 12:23:58pm
Caught in the act!
One thing to do things secretly, its problematic when the shroud slips.
Four Corners would be better at intelligence gathering than our spooks.
Give them the dollars, they do it openly!
Half Past Human:
19 Nov 2013 12:29:57pm
Friend or opponent, States spy on other States for national interests. We all know that this is a fact.
What is unacceptable is when the spying agency is targeting the phone conversations of the opponent's spouse.
I am sure, Tony or Rudd, would have been furious to hear if Indonesian spying agency was listening in on the conversations of their daughters or wives.
This is where the mistake was done.. peeping Tom.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 1:26:54pm
Interestingly, HPH, these particular allegations occured in 2009, so presumably Faulkner or Fitzgibbon would have had to approve the surveillance?
19 Nov 2013 1:59:15pm
I'd be truly astonished if Ministers were aware of these details, let alone signed off on them.
The information is collected and assessed by spooks in the DSD. I used to know a bloke who did this work although he couldn't particularly discuss it; he was a generally rational albeit somewhat paranoid guy. It works its way into reports which work their way upstairs and are summarised and prepared as briefs for ministers. The details of who said what and how we got that information would be well and truly distilled at that point.
If a minister doesn't have plausible deniability then his/her backside is hanging in the breeze and it's never a comfortable position.
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 3:28:22pm
I guess that's why we need a robust media, then, Dave, to cut through the plausible deniability.
If ministers did give the go-ahead, then they need to be held to account for jeopardising relations with an important ally . . . and perhaps the benchmarks for intelligence gathering need to be modified.
If the ministers did not give the go-ahead, then doesn't that leave the intelligence agencies as a kind of state within a state (as Half Past Human suggests) with little accountability?
19 Nov 2013 7:28:11pm
Intelligence agencies from every country have always had virtually no accountability. How is that a new idea?
Where on earth would you get the idea that they operated under transparency and Ministerial control? Who could possibly benefit from that? Not the spies, not the Minister and certainly not the public (the latter two of those three enjoying plausible deniability).
You need to try living in the real world mate.
That Guy:
19 Nov 2013 10:43:46pm
Dave, there are multiple pieces of legislation, an Inspector General, a Joint Parliamentary Committee and the relevant Ministers that oversee the AIC.
Your statement that there is no oversight is nothing but conspiracy theory paranoia.
20 Nov 2013 7:30:21am
Alright 'That Guy', you accuse me of conspiracy theorising (and you may be right) but by your own explanation there you are stating that former Ministers and other Parliamentary Committee members were AWARE that our intelligence services were trying to bug the Indonesian First Lady's phone, and it still happened.
Your conspiracy theory seems less likely than mine.
Half Past Human:
19 Nov 2013 2:36:27pm
If you read my comment carefully, Mark, you will notice that I used the term "State", not "government."
Also I mentioned Tony and Rudd.
Governments (that is the political party of the day which governs) ...come, and governments go.
The State stays where it is all the time.
Governments don't spy on Governments. It is the secret duty of the State to spy on other's Government, Business and Industry. There are proper agencies within the State to carry out this task. Those agencies report to the ministers and authorities within the government. Those ministers and authorities are not interested in the intricacies of spying methods and they don't make the rules. They are mostly interested in the 'mind set' & 'decisions' of their counterparts on the other side.
don't blame me:
19 Nov 2013 12:32:35pm
Abbott couldn't be pope, so he opted for 2nd best PM.
But he appears to have got the job descriptions mixed up, and is running the country as the pope.
Everything is secret, and don't acknowledge any one being abused, if not spoken about, it tends to go away.
Repeat everything over and over again, full of fire and brimstone, scare the bejesus, out of everybody.
Personally, I find it very grating, as can be seen by all the tomato splatters on the TV.
19 Nov 2013 12:45:11pm
The problem is Abbott just can't see when it is best to apologize and move on, backed into a corner he is a very dangerous man and we will pay the price.
Big Ben:
19 Nov 2013 12:45:16pm
Abbott is running the country straight from a script of 'Get Smart', remember the idiot spy? It is rapidly becoming ever so clear that Mr Abbott and co could not organise knees up in a house of ill repute. My goodness?.. another 2 years and 10 months of this....our most beautiful country in the hands of absolute imbeciles.
Smoke, mirrors and human rights denier Scott Morrison ? ?I?ll determine who comes to this country and by what means and I will also determine when, if ever, Australians will know what is going on?. He went on to say that ?We, the liberals have slowed the boats by 75%?....errr Scott - this was achieved by Labor two weeks before the election.
19 Nov 2013 12:50:54pm
As the PM keeps telling us, the relationship between the Australian and Indonesian governments is improving day by day. I hope the Abbott, Bishop and Morrison triumvirate have remembered to order a few spare sets of tyres for their training wheels because they are wearing them out fast.
19 Nov 2013 2:14:17pm
It is strange to see commenters delighted that Australia's interests are harmed because it makes life more difficult for Abbott through no apparent fault of his own. Are you really so shortsighted and bound up in hate?
Poisonous Mushroom:
19 Nov 2013 3:26:09pm
OUB, are you saying Tony should be paid as PM but not do the job? It might be a good idea since he seems incapable of resolving this problem, with the best that he has to offer is a dismissive response to the President of another nation. I too would be upset if that was how someone claiming to be a friend were to treat me.
But then maybe Tony and you have different expectations to me.
19 Nov 2013 5:48:25pm
I would have thought the meaning of my comment was obvious PM. The media seems to have been fairly supportive of the government's approach, to the surprise of many. But if you see the situation as an opportunity for a free kick at Abbott be my guest. Chances are you'll end up booting your own backside in the follow through.
19 Nov 2013 10:34:32pm
"The media seems to have been fairly supportive of the government's approach, to the surprise of many."... It's almost six years that the media have been unashamedly and hysterically in favour of the Coalition and against Labor. What you are seeing is just a continuation of bias as usual. If you really want to know what's going on, read the Jakarta Post. If Abbott wants to save our relationship with Indonesia he should apologise to them, as Obama did with French and Germans. The more he procrastinates, the deeper he will sink....
Big Ben:
19 Nov 2013 6:09:08pm
Could this be a case of people in glass house etc? I can never remember you being particularly kind to Ms Gillard. But maybe she deserved it and your man is just so perfect. LOL
19 Nov 2013 7:26:39pm
Trust me Ben, I could have been a lot harsher on Gillard. Rudd was worse. But I hope in my rush to get at them I could acknowledge when they did the right thing or at least not twist a good thing into a bad one.
Mike, Emir of Tarin Kowt:
19 Nov 2013 1:00:37pm
"Let's not kid ourselves: this has been going on since Philip Ruddock was in short pants. Governments everywhere have intelligence agencies. They do things that we don't have a ready understanding of, because we see only glimpses of what they do."
Thank you for that admission, Andrew.
If we saw the whole and understood - we would see it is ugly. Many Australians harmed, many of Australia's friends overseas harmed. Some good also done .
But just like IraqBodyCount, the intelligence services prefer not to count up. They are just not interested, in finding out where things actually are at.
Those the intelligence services to my knowledge put at risk;
three at least I know of, already dead, from the Afghan community.
Another 60 at risk from the Sri Lanka community - those that intelligence vetoes visas to, and don't want to tell anyone why. A tactic that always reminds me of Amway recruiting tapes - all hints and enticement, and not much substance.
The last funeral, only a few weeks ago.
So when Istart to understand the whole picture - that is the type of thing I start to see.
19 Nov 2013 1:08:40pm
this is all being exposed now to do damage to pm abbott, the media can not handle the fact that tony abbott is doing so good in reducing the boat arrivals and they will do EVERYTHING to try and bring him down but they will not succeed he is too smart for them they are finding they have to go out and actually work for their stories as unlike labor tony is not running to the abc and sky news every 5 minutes
Mark James:
19 Nov 2013 2:08:52pm
barbara, Abbott is not running to the ABC every 5 minutes because he's agreed to give all the exclusives to News Corp as payment for their work as part of his campaign team on during the 2013 election.
And, of course, Abbott is doing such a fine job stopping the boats "from day one" as he promised, that over 700 people have arrived already under his watch.
The Farmer:
19 Nov 2013 1:10:49pm
It was not Howard but rather it was Harold Holt who went "All the way with LBJ" and now look at the mess the continuation of that principal has got us into with a friendly neighbour.
Peter of Melbourne:
19 Nov 2013 6:42:37pm
You mean the friendly neighbour who is actively aiding countryshoppers to breach our borders? Indonesia has a lot to learn about friendly.
19 Nov 2013 1:56:10pm
Lets not Kid ourselves.
At lease Phillip Ruddock and his Government would not have dismissed this so publically. What the devil is Mt Abbott up to, dismissing Indonesia's concerns so lightly within Parliament. The guy is a major embarrassment to Australia.
The very least he could do is apologise and offer some sort of olive branch, perhaps they could ask Kevin to help.
Indonesia is our closest neighbour, it has over 1 million Muslims. It is clear to me the current bunch of Politicians are not up to the task of foreign affairs, I suggest they try practising on Queensland, I am sure they would have no problems "hiding the boats".
19 Nov 2013 1:59:39pm
Nice to see the rusted-on-Libs bleating about 'media bias' for a change.
One would have thought they had remembered the old saying about swings and roundabouts.
19 Nov 2013 2:10:45pm
Sounds like Australia needs to reconsider what data it supplies to our American friends. Obviously they cannot be trusted to set up secure systems given wholesale leaks from junior halfwits such as Snowden and Manning. Perhaps they should only be given processed info rather than having given access to more sensitive raw data.
Closet Romantic:
19 Nov 2013 3:05:08pm
Hi OUB
I had just come to the same conclusion came to add my comment and saw yours. I actually strongly support Manning and Snowden and the some of the stuff coming out about our spying on Indonesia verges on that right to privacy stuff that is so scary it isn't just spy verses spy its government vs individual and a corrupt sell out government at that. A government which doesn't even have the resources and competence to protect the data. I mean how would Australians react to the bugging of Margie Abbott or Tim Mathieson , they are private citizens.
When a government as powerful as the US contracts out its data management and then possibly allows the retail of the data and our government is implicated our relationship with Indonesia is not the big issue here.
19 Nov 2013 5:56:06pm
I really wouldn't care if the Indonesians bugged the spouses' phones. The Chinese would make me a lot more uneasy admittedly. Personally I am not concerned with the Americans collecting data, unless they use it to further the Americans' commercial concerns or otherwise abuse it. I can understand how others would have a stronger view on the subject just the same. BTW in the past the Americans have restricted the information coming to us because of our leakiness.
Closet Romantic:
19 Nov 2013 10:55:41pm
The bugging of the spouses is that weird line between the public and private sphere and so it does concern me it implies that spying on anyone is legitimate in the interests of national security a long bow to be sure but what's next the children the personal employees, the brothers, sisters, nieces and nephews..we also descend into the prurient world of mistresses, lovers and boyfriends really fast.
That being written the intelligence agencies probably already have this info already and the thin veil of plausible deniability is being ripped away.
On the commercial front I am even more concerned a government spying on citizens is one thing a company spying its employees is another, the implications are huge, especially if business and govt get into bed together a sort of commercial totalitarian state.
Its probably already happening and I haven't noticed and I am being incredibly niave.
Thanks for your opinions and information.
Steve Mount:
19 Nov 2013 2:11:24pm
Quite recently, the nationalist, military minded Abbott and Bishop said 'We will not ask Indonesia's permission', and more recently 'there is no conflict with Indonesia'.
This attitude of dismissal and denial has surely paved the way for really smooth diplomatic relations....
It's reminiscent of a bonfire : moreon. moreon.
19 Nov 2013 4:49:02pm
The things you have mentioned do not appear to have caused this problem.
The indonesians are upset that "In August 2009, less than one month after the Marriott bombing while Australia and Indonesian intelligence agencies were working closely to track down bombers, Australian intelligence agencies made a determined effort during a 15 day period to penetrate the inner workings of the Indonesian presidency and cabinet."
Not run of the mill spying. Special effort spying that would have required political authorisation.
You can expect A Bandt to run with tis issue but not too much from the ALP.
By all means hold Abbott and Bishop to account on how they defuse this situation but you will need to look over your left shoulder to lay blame for it.
Not Again:
19 Nov 2013 2:21:18pm
Here we go again, Indonesia crying foul...
and we Aussies are supposed to fall to our knees and kiss their
give me a break.
Indonesia is as crooked as a dogs back leg.
19 Nov 2013 2:31:28pm
The usual array of biased responses to anything that can remotely be considered the "fault" of one party or the other.
Get over it folks. The intelligence community does not act along party lines. They act to ensure Australia's security, and yes, everyone does it to each other.
However, the Liberals have handled the situation appallingly badly. How about some support for SBY? How about a sincere apology for tracking SBY and his wife's mobile phones. SBY has been the most friendly to Australia of any of their Presidents. How foolish not to support him and show some contrition. They have elections coming up and a far less cooperative President could well be elected.
19 Nov 2013 4:28:27pm
Please not Drum moderators, the name is toot, NOT toots.
Jay Somasundaram:
19 Nov 2013 2:35:59pm
What double standards. When news corp does it, it's a crime. When the RBA bribes a foreign official, it's a crime. When the government breaks the law, it's just business as usual.
What Australian and Indonesian laws were broken and will the investigation and prosecution be supported or blocked?
That Guy:
19 Nov 2013 8:21:01pm
Wait. You state unequivocally that the law was broken, but then ask what laws were broken?
Wouldn't it be better perhaps to confirm that laws have actually been broken first before making such statements?
Poisonous Mushroom:
19 Nov 2013 2:36:52pm
'Tis time Abbott and Bishop did the jobs they are paid to do, rather than issue wooden, dismissive responses to the President of another nation.
So far Abbott, Bishop and Morrison have shown me that they are not up to the job of Minister. Maybe they should take themselves off to the back bench and give Malcolm a chance again. I suspect most libs might welcome such a change.
19 Nov 2013 4:58:56pm
It is rather ham-fisted diplomacy so far, isn't it? Mr. Abbott's got a bit to learn about being a statesman.
19 Nov 2013 2:44:45pm
The intellect of aussie experts and political commentators was called into question on the radio when I heard the pleading from a well spoken person that all spy agencies around the world 'come clean'.
Next we will have an impassioned plea from a social engineer from a university calling for all 'nasty things to cease' backed by a UN study showing that nastiness is not nice. Followed by several costly enquiries into saying 'sorry' to everyone for everything.
Psst....spying is secret.....spying is lying..spying is deception....spying is denying that spying occurs .....spying is not nice.....spys lie about lying....spys lie about lying about lying....And what hopeless fool thinks he has the truth behind the lies?
Something is hapenning here but you dont know what it is....
Peter of Melbourne:
19 Nov 2013 6:39:01pm
I'm now worried maj... what should we do? You seem to have your head screwed on a lot more securely than morons like Adam Bandt and co.
My suggestion is we tell the Indons where to go in regards to this matter unless ofcourse they wish to repatriate all the countryshoppers they are allowing to transit through their country and into ours back to their points of origin.
19 Nov 2013 2:47:02pm
bring on the war we have to have. what a redneck wonderland we live in.
19 Nov 2013 2:49:38pm
So it would appear the problem from the Indonesian side is not so much the spying, but the attitude of our current PM in addressing it. After hearing his comments in Parliament today, things can only get worse. Stop the boats? Standby for a flood...
19 Nov 2013 3:24:15pm
Look I can accept my posts not getting published - I'm used to that but please tell me why was the Editor's Pick covering the interview of Ex US ambassador Kurt Campbell with Emma Alberici on Lateline last night was removed from "The Drum" below this story just after 0900 am this morning and replaced "PM's House standing empty"?
Surely the Lateline story which covered spying is much more topical and readers had barely a chance to see it was there let alone read it.
Or does the ABC Drum editor consider the empty house story much more relevant the ABC cause?
19 Nov 2013 4:41:01pm
Or merely another pin to stick in their Abbott voodoo doll ? Fine print shows it happened under Rudd as well. A snide insinuation about the PM's choice of lodgings as the cream.
Chris L:
19 Nov 2013 4:52:50pm
At least it got a mention. Remember the coverage of Ashby's accusations against Slipper being thrown out of court as a politically motivated abuse of the court system? It wasn't showing on any mainstream news agency when I looked.
I don't know who chooses what story should run the most or the longest but it seems frivolity wins over gravitas.
19 Nov 2013 3:38:38pm
This spy saga is just a diversion to take
attention away from the recent war criminal conference
attended by our glorious leader in Shri Lanka, where
gifts were exchanged, and the Shrilankan navy was instructed
in removing refugees with the gun boats provided.
19 Nov 2013 3:57:52pm
I guess we can expect the same amount of wrath we saw on these pages against News International's phone tapping of Jude law, the Royal family and Milly Dowler mounted against Kevin Rudd, Stephen Smith and John Faulkner for their authorised phone taps of an International President and his wife?
Or can we some-how pin the blame on Tony Abbott and Rupert Murdoch for that?
Sebastian Lionheart:
19 Nov 2013 4:23:36pm
Abbott and his mob symbolized the dark and nasty side of Australian politics.
The fact that his government have the U.S to back us up, he could give our neighbors the run-around and they couldn?t do anything at all.
We all could clearly see that he relished operating on the edges of propriety and make no excuses about it.
His government have politicized and concealed so much of everything connected with their policy and budgetary expenditure from the start that even such fundamental matters as the government?s plan for continuity of government, should an economy catastrophe occur in Canberra, are suspect.
Not only the public is kept in the dark, so is all other parties in parliamentary. Yet these are matters of public business. The public has a right to know what the LNP are doing with their government, for contingency planning is an area fraught with problems and potential for political mischief, not to mention mistakes that could have a long lasting effects.
19 Nov 2013 7:08:02pm
@Sebastian Lionheart - so, are you trying to argue that the previous government was entirely open and above board about its spying on the Indonesians? Or its contingency plans if they got caught?
19 Nov 2013 5:35:52pm
Seriously irresponsible and possibly manipulative journalism by the ABC and Guardian Australia.
Of course everyone spies on every body else - even the most naive person would assume that is the case. By thrusting this information under a spotlight, the media involved have put pressure on governments to respond, destabilizing the region and increasing international tensions.
This is not in the public interest or even news - it is plain stupidity.
19 Nov 2013 7:12:25pm
"Of course everyone spies on every body else - even the most naive person would assume that is the case."
That would not make it acceptable.
Furthermore, given the first quote why is it "Seriously irresponsible and possibly manipulative journalism by the ABC and Guardian Australia."
"This is not in the public interest or even news - it is plain stupidity." Given the first quote why is it not the politicians of both countries (and most countries) who are the ones behaving stupidly. It is they who cannot handle the 'truth' and because of that it is newsworthy and in the public interest to know.
It is ridiculous to simply say that something of common knowledge should not be 'revealed'. It is also, of itself, a reason not to trust the person who says it.
Poisonous Mushroom:
19 Nov 2013 5:36:13pm
Abbott is certainly no statesman. He seems to continue to live by dogma. And he seems to delight in putting the blame back on the other person, calling for calm heads at this time.
Shorten on the other hand has come across as a statesman in this crisis suggesting that Abbott consider following Obama's approach.
I firmly believe an apology is necessary if Abbott believes there is no need to spy on the Indonesian President and his wife. And I firmly believe an undertaking should be given that the Australian government will not spy on any of the Indonesian leadership and their partners in recognition of the trust Australia has with them and the friendship Australia has with them.
Anything less I believe is to be seen as an affront to Indonesia regardless of Abbott's commitment to the dogma of the 19th and 20th centuries.
I suspect a very large number of Australians agree with me, but unfortunately I also suspect many Australians strongly disagree with me.
19 Nov 2013 5:40:02pm
If it is timely for Indonesia and Australia to reassess their relationship perhaps a good starting point would be the willingness of our military to train and assist Indonesian kopassus units in their bloody war of repression against Indonesian citizens in West Papua
19 Nov 2013 5:40:18pm
If it is timely for Indonesia and Australia to reassess their relationship perhaps a good starting point would be the willingness of our military to train and assist Indonesian kopassus units in their bloody war of repression against Indonesian citizens in West Papua
19 Nov 2013 6:11:51pm
Never mind whether or not the PM apologises to Indonesia for normal national behaviour. Is the ABC going to apologise to the Australian and Indonesian people for their role in damaging the relationship? With friend like the ABC who needs enemies!
Half Past Human:
19 Nov 2013 6:50:24pm
Abbott should have apologised immediately and publicly for the unnecessary monitoring of the spouse's telephone conversations and then say what he had to say in the parliament yesterday. He had a chance, he blew it! And he knows it is too late now!
19 Nov 2013 6:18:12pm
I am rather disappointed at the Indonesian government. Obvious they think they have us 'over the barrel because of the asylum seekers and they have consequently been very publically aggressive about every aspect of our bilateral relationship. While Tony Abbott has been far too accommodating. I am therefore very glad that Tony Abbott has said: "Enough is enough". This is a bilateral relationship, benefiting both countries. Indonesia Has to lose as much as Australia (if not more) from the deterioration of our relationship - even the current 'megaphone diplomacy' employed by Indonesia.
19 Nov 2013 10:39:55pm
"Indonesia Has to lose as much as Australia (if not more) from the deterioration of our relationship"... NO, we lose more... and they know it. If Abbott's diplomatic incompetence goes as far as closing Indonesia to our companies, the Libs themselves will boot him out.... (like they did with their leader in Vic and the NT).
Jean Apollo:
19 Nov 2013 6:56:51pm
I agree totally with Mr Carr statement about the failure of US agency NSA or
even CIA.We have seen movies about the
organisations which create lots of problems
for other nations due to action. They don't have Loyal or trusted employer like Edward Snowden, who took asylum in Russia and open up all the secrets to the whole world.NSA/CIA cannot do anything
for he is unofficially protected by the country he is presiding.Now US and the EU has the alliance problems. Australia and Asia countries will be in the same boat. Russia and China are now laughing and clapping and cheering NSA/CIA to keep up the good job.
True Blue Ozzie:
19 Nov 2013 7:05:29pm
Tony Abbott is a total " W#??@? " it does not take much of a brain to figure out that Indonesia has been pissed with Abbotts mouthing in the lead up to the election ! Abbotts policy is a dead set flop, he dose not have a policy it's all crap he's feeding to the poor soul's who think hes a honest trustworthy politician!
Morrison, & Abbott are a gutless pair of cowards, hideing the truth behind false walls, so we voters wont have the truth to make Abbott Accountable for his utter failure !
Australians deserve better than this!
19 Nov 2013 7:15:30pm
Thanks Andrew, love that condescending paragraph at the end there.
I'll just sit back and not concern myself in the least that the 'professionals' know what they're doing and have a very good reason for doing it.
It's episodes like these that preclude us from having a meaningful intelligence partnership with Indonesia.
Kerja sama(cooperation) would be more in the interests of both countries than konfrontasi(confrontation), wouldn't it?
19 Nov 2013 7:35:41pm
I see that Mark Scott sets himself up to be the arbiter of what we should know.Apparently it is in the public's interest to know that the previous government spied on Indonesia,of course we didn't know that,it took the lefty rag and the ABC to tell us,as it has been an open secret for years,just whom were you telling Mr Scott?And what was the information that you didn't tell us?The information that you say you held back?Isn't it in our best interests to tell us everything the government has done?
What a pity the Snowden incident happened during labor's term,it's why you are holding information back,isn't it?
Poisonous Mushroom:
20 Nov 2013 8:23:03am
Noelene, I think you I set yourself up as the arbiter. Personally I praise Mark Scott and the ABC for giving all Australians the opportunity to see how Abbott and co operate in what could have been a very minor blip with an understanding neighbour. What I have seen is a leader who falls back on some 19th and 20th century dogma of very, very limited value in the 21st century and goes out of his way to infuriate a friendly neighbour, all 244 million of them, and probably half the Australia population simply to avoid saying sorry, believe me please when I say I do respect and trust you, your wife and Indonesia's leadership.
But then they were the same spots on the leopard before the election. Thanks for the confirmation Mr Abbott.
19 Nov 2013 8:14:00pm
It has been interesting to read all the posts to date. The level of vitriol from both sides is disappointing and the level of ignorant comment from particularly the right is downright alarming. I think that Mr Abbott must take responsibility for much of the anger and hatred displayed within these discussions, having relentlessly driven the trajectory of the debate. In this he emulates the Tea Party. That in itself is bad enough but why does he have to duplicate their penchant for the promotion of ignorance?
He really does need to pursue the national interest and apologise for the stupid actions of our "intelligence" operatives during the Rudd era. When he has done that, he needs to undertake a version of truth and reconciliation and work to repair the bitter division he has fostered within the community. If he were able to do that, he and Australia would be all the better for it.
19 Nov 2013 8:14:03pm
Terrorism in all it's forms is insidious. It dehumanizes all it touches. Sadly at times to fight this evil one has to take action that would under normal circumstances would shock the values of most sane people. Terrorists do not play by rules, who they are, who they work for is never clear cut. They do not wear uniforms!
Based on current events and leaks and role our press has played in blowing up the matter with Indonesia I believe a lot of journalists need to ask themselves some hard questions. Our freedoms are hard won and yes they can be easily undermined but at some point surely sound judgement over a story must be exercised? What if Indonesia ramps up the tit for tat and declares open license to the people smugglers? How many journo's will step up and cop some blame for any future drownings that be be a consequence? Perhaps Gillard and co were right, maybe journalists need to have stricter rules as it seems responsible reporting is no longer even a byline.
19 Nov 2013 11:27:35pm
"Our freedoms are hard won"- they are? I'd rather thought they were mostly passively inherited from the mother country. But be of no doubt- people who go to sea on rickety boats, borne on by whatever desperation are they themselves the only cause of their deaths. Not journalists. Not politicians. Not even people who's politics you disagree with. Casting about the old blood on your hands argument is a thin and flimsy excuse for debate.
19 Nov 2013 8:42:31pm
Anyone who tells you that these phone taps started and ended under the previous govt is either lying or delusional.
All we have is one snapshot in time, and we can be 100% positive that Abbott has never contacted any agency to ask if SBY was being bugged, and if so to cease immediately. He cannot slither away from responsibility on this as some would like, and try to lay all the blame on either Rudd or Gillard.
Spying has been used as a tactic for as long as governments have existed, and let's be brutally honest here, any major trading nation that doesn't do it is neglecting the security & future prosperity of its citizens .
These tensions have occurred before and the immediate concern for Indonesia is to save face. They will withdrawn their Ambassador for a time until they get some concessions, with maybe a few hush-hush concessions of the information gathering type.
International diplomacy can be be quite ironic..
19 Nov 2013 9:00:33pm
Oh well, at less the government now has a convenient but valid excuse for not being able to turn the boat backs.
19 Nov 2013 9:05:13pm
If you don't want spies to spy on you, don't go into politics. Drive a taxi or something.
19 Nov 2013 10:23:33pm
The spying may not have much impact, though the listening to SBY's phone might. What is harmful is the posturing bullsh*t reply from Abbott and his ghastly sidekick Julie Bishop. In typical Abbott fashion, he has no grasp of what people feel and why. Indonesia have stressed a fair bit for us lately. It is possible to apologise for the offence, but unfortunately Tony is never wrong. Ignorant and ill educated, but never wrong.
Jean Apollo:
19 Nov 2013 11:21:21pm
It's being stated that the action of US & Australia have very much wounded the strategic partnership alliance not only with Indonesia, unfortunately have created distrust with other Asian Nations and EU alliance nations. There will come a time when both nations need political support then time and situation will be known. After all it's all POLITICAL.
Peret T:
20 Nov 2013 12:58:42am
Arrogance of the Indonesian government has become very annoying. Tony Abbott was bending backwards to please Indonesians and offer them a genuine friendship. He stated several times that he would discuss and negotiate any potential problem directly and privately. However the Indonesians have been involved in the 'megaphone diplomacy' from day one and quite arrogantly making demands aimed to embarrass Australia.
I am therefore pleased that Tony Abbott has finally decided to put stop to such arrogance. Surely, we value our relationship with Indonesia. However, unless Indonesia start valuing and appreciating their relationship with Indonesia we will be unable to appease Indonesian government. It is about time we say; 'enough is enough'. We spend 500 million dollars annually in foreign aid to Indonesia. I think that should buy as at least a little respect from the Indonesian government and somewhat blunt their rather arrogant behaviour.
I also wonder what is USA doing about the dispute. After all the spying has been done on the American behalf and it was the American dissident who leaked the information. For Americans, because of Americans. Surely the Americans shold put Indonesia in their place.
Poisonous Mushroom:
20 Nov 2013 8:26:51am
Why did you not suggest compulsory conscription of all Australians aged 18 to 65 for 5 years overseas military service Peret T if you want to put other nations in the place you think they should be put in? Its not very courageous to get the US to do the job for you is it?
20 Nov 2013 1:37:15am
What is shown is typical of an arrogance Australian to developing countries. But when it faces the US, it wags its tail like a dog. Its face shows mutual trust; its tail wiretaps. The hypocrite.
John in Brisbane:
20 Nov 2013 1:42:55am
Thanks for the article. A few things.
1. I was sorry when I heard that your old boss was going to retire. We need more people like him on deck, not less.
2. A fair case can be made for intelligence and security services operating with a certain divergence from general community standards. And every profession has secrets and troubling aspects. The issue is that there is now a reasonable suspicion that things are getting out of hand. The divergence appears to be getting too wide. Secrecy appears to be going too far. Unreasonable and damaging snooping is occurring. Spying on the Indonesian president is probably more justifiable than spying on his German counterpart but without a direct and urgent need based on a reasonable apprehension, it looks very bad indeed. If the justification was simply along the lines of him being the head of Indonesia, that's a serious concern. The US looks terrible WRT Germany. Maybe it's the logical result of a combination of too much "damned if we do, damned if we don't" and "the ends justify the means" thinking plus a lack of wise, brave leadership. Maybe it's something else entirely. What is certain is that this isn't just a case of the naive getting a taste of the real world - it's whole cohorts of people in trusted, important positions making bad decisions within a system that seems to be becoming too self-justifying.
3. It's unclear whether short pants had been invented when Philip Ruddock was the right age for them but I'm pretty sure he transitioned directly from a button-up onesy to a 3 piece suit.
cheers John
20 Nov 2013 7:38:54am
It only looks bad if someone blabs, and unnecessarily so at that , and for no purpose other than to light the fire and watch it burn, and call everyone to come and join in and make fun of victim even if its its one of your own, its so much fun to watch it burn; vandalism I think its called.
Jimmy Biggles:
20 Nov 2013 2:46:27am
I am a tax payer.
My taxes are being used to spy on my neighbours and my neighbours wife.
I feel betrayed.
It justifies tax evasion - I refuse to pay taxes to a government that breaches human rights.
It is pitiful.
20 Nov 2013 5:55:37am
And just what was the point of the ABC in releasing this stuff? In what way has it done anything but cause trouble with our most important neighbor? Other than cause great disruption to our government, what news value was in this illicit release of sensitive intelligence information? And that they actually bragged about it signing off with the Guardian.
There has been a rapidly building case for the ABC to move back to its charter or be got rid of (as tragic as that may be) but cases such as this pointless piece of treachery really ramps up the pressure to get its house in order post haste
Poisonous Mushroom:
20 Nov 2013 8:12:07am
"treachery" Trekka? In my view the treachery is being done by this immature, childish, kindergarten government. And I suppose you would continue its no responsibility, no accountability, no consequences policies, its abuse of what the leader says is the best friend of Australia in the world and its mushroom growing activities of keeping everyone in the dark and feeding them BS, banning its candidates from speaking publicly without approval, banning its Ministers fron speaking publicly without approval, banning its members from travelling overseas without approval.
This PM is very quickly trashing all lib's basic freedoms.
When is the government going to start down the path of continuing Howard's work of trashing all individual rights and freedoms.
And all in the name of democracy.
20 Nov 2013 7:52:32am
After reading through the comments above I cant believe how many people are willing to blame one party or the other or even the ABC for that matter, haven't any of you ever heard of the cold war, it was a war based on spying. Now to be honest do you really think this sort of thing has just started up, no, its been going on since way back when and under the rule of different parties, I see where the 2009 date has specifically mentioned and straight away it was rudd or Gillard who did the dirty work, they were just unlucky at that snowden had managed to get that date, and not some other date. Really it is being blown way out of proportion and a simple apology would suffice in clearing the matter up. Obamba proved himself with a simple apology and if Typhoon Tony did the same thing it would all go away. Christ all of us who post our views on here are probably being spied on by the government also.
Poisonous Mushroom:
20 Nov 2013 8:01:12am
How immature, how chiildish can Abbott, Bishop, Morrison and the coalition get than the dear leader stand up in parliament and tell Australia and the world that Australia should not have to apologise, and by inference, will not apologise, for spying on another national leader, and his wife, who he rightly states is the best friend Australia in the world.
I would have thought the manly thing to have done would have been to at least speak to Australia's best friend in the world personally by phone at least before telling the world that this is how he would treat Australia's best friend in the world. But then maybe I am not the man Abbott sees himself as being. I know I am not the man that Abbott is.
And even if Abbott believes he must live by some outdated 19th and 20th century dogma, I do not consider that is appropriate for the 21st century.
Personally I see no greater insult that could be imposed on the best friend of Australia in the world than the actions taken by Abbott and the coalition. But then Abbott's character was clear to most Australians before the last election.
Get on the phone, get on a plane Tony, write and issue a humble apology for your actions and Australia's actions, follow Obama's lead and tell Indonesia that you will ensure Australia does not spy on the best friend it has in the world and the leadership of Australia's friend.
Until you show those you call Australia's friends proper respect and proper trust you can not expect either respect or trust from very, very many Australians nor from the people or leadership of nations you would like to call Australia's friend.
I suspect very many Australians will agree with me, but many others in this deeply divided nation will not.
20 Nov 2013 8:23:30am
This all got so much publicity and blew up into Tony's face because he can't be a diplomat and keep the people happy who voted him in. It's simply beyond him. And what does he choose? Pandering to his own mob, i.e. assure himself of staying in power here. He's such a clumsy communicator, and being in charge, he'll be one of the kind to whom history will look back at with disdain.
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