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Today's India And China
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#1 oneman28
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Posted 07 March 2004 - 09:01 AM
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Source: http://newschecker.b...by-numbers.html
1. The Geo-demographics of China and India:
Land Area: China 9.6 million sq km; India: 2.97 million sq km
Population: China 1.3 billion; India 1.1 billion
Labor force: China 791.4 million; India 496.4 million
Population growth rate: China 0.59% (death rate 0.697%, birth rate 1.325%); India 1.38% (death rate 0.818%, birth rate 2.201%)
2. Economy in General
GDP in 2005: China US$2.225 trillion; India US$719.8 billion or
China US$8.859 trillion; India US$3.611 trillion by PPP
Economy sectors:
China: Agriculture: 15% of GDP, Industry 52% of GDP, Manufacturing 35% of GDP, service 33% In 2001
India: Agriculture: 24% of GDP, Industry 27% of GDP, Manufacturing 16% of GDP, service 48% In 2001
These data comes from World Bank. You can conclude that China's industry size is almost 6 times of India's after a very simple calculation. You can see how little India's industry is. More important, China's industry is still growing much faster than India's.
3. Agriculture
India has more arable land than China. Indian produced 250 million tons of grains in 2003 (Thanks for the good weather).
China usually produces 450 million tons of grains each year no matter how tough the weather is (record is more than 500 million tons) (Thanks for the biotech R&D and expansion of the technologies in agricultural filed in China).
4. Industry
As data in "Economy in General" section shows, China's industry scale is 6 times of India's. China's industry is still growing at around 16% pace for many years. That means one year increase in China's industry revenue equals to the total size of India's industry. The gap is huge.
Around 43 million tons of iron and steel was produced in India in 2005 (An important index of infrastructure construction.) China produced around 349 million tons of iron and steel.
55% of the world cement (Another infrastructure construction index) was used in China. See Http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2446908
By the data from CIA fact books, India produced around 36 million tons of oil (A natural resource index) in 2003 and will face the resource problem soon.
China produced 160 million tons of oil in 2003 and imported more than 100 million tons in the same year.
Here talks about the Sino-India trade in 2004. It clearly tells that India is only a raw material supplier to China and China mainly sells industrial products to India.
India's average tariff fell from 56% in 1990 to 28% in 2004. By comparison, China's average tariff dropped from 32% to 6% over the same period. That means, India has to use tariff to protect its weak industry. While, China's industry competes against others fairly even in domestic market.
In 2002 the typical monthly wage of a manufacturing worker in India was US$23.80 while in China the figure was US$110.80, according to the IMF.
Even India's industry is under the protection of high tariff. India still has a huge trade deficit. The deficit could reach US$50 billion in the fiscal year of 2005-2006.
But China always has a trade surplus. I even don't bother to provide the links.
5. Service Industry
Calculating from the GDP numbers of both China and India and the percentage of service industry in them, China's service industry contributed US$742.5 billion to China's GDP, it is almost the total of India's GDP. India's service revenue was only US$345.5billion.
Chinese airlines carried 138 million passengers in 2005, and the loads will nearly double to 270 million passengers in 5 years.
Passenger traffic grew to 52.12 million in the last fiscal in India, from 43.47 million in 2004-05, to register a growth of 19.9 percent.
The annual insurance premium currently collected in India is $23 billion, which is expected to increase ten fold to $ 239 by 2020. In the same period, China's insurance premium will rise to $863 billion from the present level of $60 billion.
Retail sales surged 12.9 percent in 2005 over the year before, to 6.7 trillion Yuan ($847 billion). By 2020, industry forecasts say the market could expand to about $2.4 trillion.
India's total retail market reached US $230 billion in 2005 and will grow to US$370 billion in 2011
India's travel and tourism market was valued at US$42 billion in 2005. 340 million people traveled in 2005. The outbound travelers from India grew to 6.2 million in 2005. This was almost twice the number of arrivals witnessed by the country. That means only 3.1 million visited India in the same time.
China received 47.11 million visitors in 2005. This number should not include the vistors from Hongkong, Macau and Taiwan.
There were 31 million outbound tourists from China in 2005.
In 2005, inbound tourists reached 120 million (including Chinese from Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan economies).
Overseas tourists contributed over $29.3 billion to the Chinese economy. But their contribution was far outweighed by that of domestic Chinese tourists, who contributed $66.7 billion.
In 2004, China's service exports were US$62 billion versus US$40 billion for India. On the other hand, 60% ofChina's service exports were travel and transportation services while in India the figure was 22%.
In 2003, India's exports of commercial services other than travel, transportation, and finance amounted to US$18.9
billion. The figure for China was US$20.6 billion. In other words, China may already be ahead of India in selling IT
services to the world.
6. Financial Industry and financial stability
Indians always say that their financial industry is better than China's counterpart. This claim can cheat a lot when Chinese banks were completely state-owned. But today, top four of Chinese banks were listed in Hong Kong stock market. When it goes to the truth in market, Indian financial industry is so pitiful comparing with China's.
After the IPO of The Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, its market value is about US$87 billion, This is almost one and half times of the collective market capitalization of all listed Indian banks - for the 37 listed Indian banks, this is about $ 62.76 billion (Rs 2,86,859 crore). Bank of China's market capitalization is now around $105 billion and that of China Construction Bank $ 99 billion.
India's ICICI Bank tops the market capitalization chart with $ 13.59 billion (Rs 62,177 crore), followed by the State Bank of India with $11.89 billion (Rs 54,380 crore) and HDFC Bank with $6.29 billion (Rs 28,774 crore). None of the other listed Indian banks has over $5 billion worth of market capitalisation. Punjab National Bank, the fourth bank when it comes to market capitalization, is worth just $3.62 billion. Canara Bank is worth just $2.52 billion.
China's ICBC has total assets of over $ 812 billion, close to the size of India's GDP! State Bank of India, which accounts for almost one-fifth of total banking assets in India, however, has an asset base of only $84 billion.
How China's banks are welcomed in the stock market? The institutional tranche, which makes up 95% of the ICBC offering, attracted more than US$300 billion in orders and is 23 times oversubscribed. In Hong Kong, ICBC's initial public offering (IPO) of H-shares was 76-times oversubscribed with one million retail investors putting in HK$420 billion. This broke the previous record, held by Bank of China, which attracted HK$286 billion (US$36.7 billion) earlier this year. This enables ICBC to price its shares at the upper limit.
Budget deficit: 10% of GDP in India versus 2% in China. This could have big impact on financial and economical stability.
China has almost US$1 trillion forex reserves with total of US$ 297.9 billion external debt
India has US$165.275 billion forex reserves with US$132.1 billion external debt.
India has a huge public debt, the ratio of public debt to GDP was 82% in 2005 and still growing fast, which is above the globally recognized alarm level of 60 percent.
China's public debt was 28.8% of GDP.
7. Software Industry
India is famous for its software and back office service. China's software industry is actually much bigger than that of India even China keeps silent. Chinese companies rely on huge domestic market while India has almost no IT market comparing with the big countries around. China has its own software brands such as KingSoft, Rising(anti-virus), Jiangming (Anti-virus), RedFlag(Working on Linux), WPS ( office software), ufsoft(Enterprise), KINGDEE (Golden Butterfly in Chinese) ( Enterprise), Shanda (Games).
China's Software industry revenue reached 390 billion RMB (around US$50 billion) in 2005.
India's software industry revenue reached US$29.6 billion in the fiscal year ended in March 2006.
8. Infrastructure
India has total of 127 million cellular users as of the end of September 2006 and around 50 million landline phone users. See
China has total of 437 million mobile users and 368 million fixed-line phone users as of the end of August 2006. Total of 800 million phones are being used in China.
India had 27.7 million internet users by year-end 2005, and had only 1.3 million broadband users. China had 111 million internet users through the end 2005, among which 41.2 million were broadband users. See:
Don't forget India defines access speed of 128 kbps as broadband even in 2004.
Railroad: In 1949, there were only 21,800 km of railway lines in China, with only 11,000 km opened to traffic. See: Http://www.macrochina.com.cn/english/china...412000136.shtml
As of the end of 2004, China had 74, 000KM of railroad with much better quality. See: Http://english.people.com.cn/200501/26/eng...126_171976.html
India had total of about 55,000 km Railroad in 1951. That's much more than China had in 1952. See: Http://irfca.org/faq/faq-history4.html .But India has fewer railroads than China now.
China's expressway (at least 4 lanes, speed limit 110KM/hour or 120KM/hour) reaches 42, 000KM at the end of 2005. Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressways_of_China
India has only 4,885 km are central-separated expressways.
In 2002 China spent US$128 billion on power and transport infrastructure compared to US$18 billion for India.
A very small share of India's roads is composed of highways. Of 3.3 million kilometers of roadway, only 195,000 kilometers are highways. China, on the other hand, has roughly 1.4 million kilometers of highway.
Due to insufficient port capacity, the lead time for Indian exports to the US is roughly three to four times greater than Chinese exports.
India has electricity capacity of 130,000 megawatts.
At the end of 2006. China will have the power capacity of 590 million kilowatts (590,000 megawatts)
9. Education
Around 30% of Indian male cannot read newspaper and 52% of female cannot read. that means around 40% of Indians cannot read. See
Less than 10% of Chinese cannot read (most of are old person and they missed the education opportunity in the old time). See
Indians are very proud of their software industry. But for the computer science education, China's education quality is much higher than India.
This is the result of ACM-ICPC World Finals which is a famous programming contest in the world. You can see Chinese students had much better performance than Indian counterpart.
Here is the final list of the famous worldwide IBM ACM contest in 2006. So many Chinese universities were in the top list. You can clearly see Chinese students had much better performance than Indian counterpart.
Here is another world-wide programmer contest. China and Chinese universities got much better scores than India.
Http://www.topcoder.com/stat?c=country_avg_rating (Ranking by country)
Http://www.topcoder.com/stat?c=school_avg_rating (ranking by school)
Here is the final list of Google Code Jam 2006, in which, there are 14 Chinese programmers entered the final competition, but you cannot find any Indians in the list. Http://www.google.com/press/annc/codejam06finals.html
Roughly 15% of China's population aged 18 to 23 is enrolled in higher education compared to 7% in India. 91% of Chinese adults are literate versus 61% in India. Among females, the numbers are 87% and 45% respectively. In China, there are 18 pupils per teacher in secondary schoolsversus 34 in India. Clearly, China has an advantage when it comes to education.
China's education also connected more with outside.
South and West Asia is the origin of 194,000 mobile students, with two-thirds coming from India, according to a report from the UNESCO Institute for Statistics (UIS) titled 'The Global Education Digest 2006'. (That means about 130,000 students from India)
Between 1999 and 2004, the number of mobile students worldwide surged by 41 percent from 1.75 million to 2.5 million, according to the Digest. China sends the greatest number of students abroad - 14 percent of the global total - primarily to the US, Japan and Britain. (That means 350,000 students from China)
Today, on every parameter for basic education, China is far ahead of India. In 2000, only 47 per cent of all children managed to complete grade 5 of primary schooling in India, as opposed to 98 per cent of Chinese children. The pupil-teacher ratio for primary education in China is one teacher for every 20 students compared to one teacher for every 40 students in India. According to World Bank estimates, youth male illiteracy in India is 20 per cent. In China it's less than one per cent.
10. Science and technology R&D
China spent 245 billion Yuan (30.6 billion U.S. dollars) on scientific research and development (R&D) in 2005, a rise of 24.6 percent. The investment accounted for 1.34 percent of China's 2005 GDP. R&D funds coming from enterprises stood at 167.4 billion Yuan, making up 68.3 percent of the total investment.
India's total domestic spending on R&D rose an estimated 9.7% to $4.9 billion, or 0.77% of GDP, in the fiscal year ended March 2005.
Based on PPP value of the investment on R&D, China invested US$124.03 billion in 2005 and India did US$36.11 billion in the same year. The numbers will go to US$149.80 billion and US$41.81 billion in 2007.
China's R&D investment was 12.7% of the total of the world, comparing with 32.7% of US, 12.7% of Japan and 3.7% of India in 2005 based on PPP.
57.6% of the R&D investment in China came from industry, 33.4% from government, 2.7 from abroad, 6.3% from others.
23% of the R&D investment in India came from industry, 74.7% from government, 23% from others.
Even China's R&D is not high comparing with the developed countries, but it was 6 times of what India did. The huge investment gap can tell many things. The results are so obvious:
The number of papers that are being published by China and India in high-caliber journals - ones that are accessed by Science Citation Index and Social Science Citation Index, papers originating from China had was almost thrice those from India in 2005.
In 2005, Indians published only 4 articles in the prestigious Journal of American Chemical Society (JACS) versus just 22 for China, 8 versus 28 in the Physical Review of Letters (PRL) and 2 versus 13 in the Journal of Biological Chemistry (JBC).
While China's score on the Knowledge Index has risen from 3.03 in 1995 to 4.21 today, India's has fallen from 2.76 to 2.61 -- that is, India has slipped even relative to itself!
In terms of innovation, which includes the articles published in scientific journals, apart from the number of R&D personnel and the number of patents, India's score has improved from 3.51 to 3.72 -- China, however, has improved from 3.94 to 4.74, another instance of that country's stupendous progress.
On public expenditure on higher education, India lags way behind at $406 per student, just a fraction of countries like China (US $2,728), Brazil (US $3,986) and Malaysia (US $11,790)
Many Indian and west media say India has advantage in innovation over China. Let's compare the patents from the two countries. The number of Patent applications of a country pretty much stands for the creative and innovation of this country's economy. In 2004, over 130,000 patent applications were received in China and China became the No. 4 in the world. India only had 17,466 applications in the same year. China filed 51 applications per million people, while India had only seven filings per million people. India was second to last
China made 2,452 international patent applications in 2005, a growth of 43.7 percent compared with the previous year. Http://china.org.cn/english/2006/Feb/156849.htm
India filed 648 PCT applications in 2005, compared to 723 in 2004 and 764 in 2003. The trend is so obvious.
Indians are always boasting about their high technologies even supercomputer technologies. Let's compare the super computer because Indians are always claiming India is the second IT country in the world.
China's homemade supercomputer listed as No. 14. But the fastest one used in India is No. 105. It was made by IBM. India's homemade one is listed as No. 258. Legend (now Lenovo) built another more powerful one this year. It can be listed as No. 3 or No. 4. More powerful and more supercomputers were used in China than in India. See Http://www.top500.org/list/2003/11/
China's Lenovo is working on 1,000 TFLOPS supercomputer already, and it could be ready before 2010.
The super computer will have domestic CPUs: Http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-03/...ent_4254337.htm
Thanks for the large market scale and the recent progress in the technology, China is able and trying to set the international or national technology standards, such as TD-SCDMA, EVD, WAPI, AVS, RFID.
TD-SCDMA was accepted worldwide. Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TD-SCDMA
FiberHome is the presenter of ITU-T X.85、X.86和X.87 international telecommunication standard: Http://www.fhn.com.cn/fhneng/gyfh.asp?class=About_us
ZTE To Edit Key ITU Standard For Optical Network Technology. Http://www.totaltele.com/View.aspx?ID=1226&t=1
China also has its own HDTV, IPTV standards. We know the standard can make more and easier money than the simple production and present the development level of technology in one country. I never hear any international industrial standard come from India.
AVS: Http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/20...afx2376962.html
WAPI: Http://english.people.com.cn/200610/13/eng...013_311470.html
In the telecommunication technology, China is already one of the forerunners in the world.
Huawei along had registered over 8000 patents already. Http://www.china.org.cn/english/BAT/142904.htm
Huawei's global contract sales jumped up 40 pct to US$8.2 billion. Http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2...afx2451344.html
Huawei became the largest supplier in the Optical networking market in the world in 2006.
China's IC industry is making great leap in recent years. China uses about 13% of the ICs in the world and will be one of the top IC producers in 2010.
China is to complete its first very-high-temperature gas-cooled reactor (VHTR) by the year 2010. This will be the first such reactor in the world.
China's fusion research and achievements,
China today is actually one of the leaders in nano-technology research. 18.3 percent academic publications on nanoscale science and engineering topics were from China in 2004. Http://www.smalltimes.com/Articles/Article...70358&p=109
China's nanotechnology patent applications rank third in world even before 2003.
In agriculture, China is the place where hybrid-rice came from. Yuan Longping is called the "father of hybrid rice" in the world. Http://www.china.org.cn/english/2001/Mar/8452.htm
China developed high-yield "super maize": Http://www.checkbiotech.org/root/index.cfm...mp;fullsearch=0
China aims for 30 pc increase in "super wheat" output by 2020.
China has taken the lead among developing countries in the research of genetically modified (GM) plants.
11: International Trade
China's international trade topped US$1.4 trillion (import: US$660 billion, export: US$762 billion) in 2005, and China became the 3rd largest trader in the world. See: Http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/11/business/yuan.php
India's international trade reached US$240.8B (export: US$100.6B, import: US$140.2 billion, import > export) in 2005 (ended in March 2006) with huge trade deficit (40% of its export). Http://www.sunmediaonline.com/indiachronic...teraltrade.html
From the data above, China does not only can sell a lot more to the outside and also provide a much larger domestic market to the outside. China's market is not only huge on paper or by mouth. It is real.
12: Living standard
Infant mortality rate: China 2.312%, India 5.463%
Life expectancy at birth: China 72.58 years, India 64.71 years
(From CIA facts books)
People living with HIV/AIDS: China 0.64 million, India 5.7 million (The world No. 1 in 2005)
46% of general population in Bombay carries an active sexually transmitted disease (the greatest risk factor for HIV spread). Do you believe it? See: Http://www.globalchange.com/indi.htm
Indian PC sales hit 4.6 million in 2005 (ended in March 2006) in the so-called the second IT superpower. See: Http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/arti...ndian_pc_plant/
About 20 million of PCs were sold in China in 2005 (ended in December 2005). China is actually the No. 2 PC market in the world, only after US. See: Http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2150574/...it-billion-2005
Only 32% of Indian families have TV. See:
China's number is 94% which is was almost as high as in the developed countries. India will be 2/3 of this number at the end of decade.
India's health system is worse than neighboring Pakistan and Bangladesh.
The proportion of children underweight in India is 47.5% higher than the proportion of children underweight in Sub-Saharan Africa as a whole.
According to UNICEF, India in fact has 57 million children suffering from malnutrition compared to only seven million in China.
In China, underweight prevalence in children under five was reduced by more than half from 19 per cent in 1990 to just under seven per cent in 2005. The under-five mortality rate also sharply dropped from 49 per 1000 live births in 1990 to 31 in 2004.
India ranks 93 among 116 developing countries in the global hunger index. India's score on the index for 2003, the latest year for which data is available, was 25.73, worse than Sudan at 27.20 but better than Burkina Faso (25.80). The index, comprising three indices - child malnutrition, child mortality and estimates of the proportion of people who are calorie deficient - ranks countries on a 100-point scale, with 0 being the best and 100 being the worst.
nearly 50 percent of the world's hungry live in India. Around 35 percent of India's population - 350 million - is considered food-insecure, consuming less than 80 percent of minimum energy requirements.
The long list of Chinese medal winners at Sydney 2000 Olympic Games: See: Http://www.sportorganizer.com/2000sydney/2000sydney16.htm
Let's congratulate to the only one Indian winner in 2000: See: Http://www.sportorganizer.com/2000sydney/2000sydney34.htm
2004 Olympics in Athens, Please look for China from the top of the list and India from the bottom:
13. Political system
Even Indians claim India is a democratic country. But its corruption is worse than China. see
Http://www.international.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=5299 (The research result for 2003, Corruption Perception Index)
Http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html (The research result for 2006, Corruption Perception Index)
Another research report said India's corruption is much worse than China too: Http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/topstorie...,238369,00.html
Do you believe Democracy works in India?
Human Rights in India? See here: 3000 farmers committed suicide in a 11million farming area in one year. Http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3855517.stm
Suicide rate for women is as high as 148 per 100,000, and 58 per 100,000 for men in Tamil Nadu. Http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/apr/15spec.htm
At least 5% of Mumbai's people live on the roads, and 2% are simply nomads. Another 2.5 million people live in dilapidated buildings which have been officially tagged as 'dangerous'. See the report: Http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4222525.stm
Over 12 per cent of disabled women in Orissa have been raped and 25 per cent of those mentally challenged have been sexually assaulted in the state. Isn't that horrible? See: Http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=42099
Twelve protestors killed in police shooting in January, 2006
Four killed in protests in India's Gujarat state in May, 2006
Four were killed in the Violence over Indian star's death in April, 2006
The ill-treated Indians have to take their weapons to stand up against Indian government
Maoist rebels spread across rural India.
The religious conflicts, fighting happens in India over and over again. You can see how divided India is as a country.
Don't forget the caste system in India and 160 million Untouchables are living in India.
It is well known that there is no space for the discrimination against other domestic ethnic groups In China. Women are enjoying the equal rights. Chinese minorities often have more rights or privileges than Han people.
To artificially make Kolkata "shining", gov "bought from farmers for 10,000 to Rs 12,000 per acre and sold to builders for Rs 300,000 to Rs 400,000 per acre ". This can happen in a large city in India.
To make Mumbai as shining as Shanghai, so many slum residents losted their place to live in one day. Around 60% of Mumbai residents are living in slums.
60% poor people cannot beat 40% rich people in making policies in a democracy country. If you read the comments after the news, few think about the poor. See the comments: Http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=40309
Also please see the pitiful poor India after their slums were destroyed by Indian government: Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pict...less/html/1.stm
These two articles were written by the same foreign visitor (sounds like a biz man) after he visited both India and China in the same year (2000).
His view about India: Http://berclo.net/page00/00en-impressions-india.html
His impression about China: Http://berclo.net/page00/00en-impressions-china.html
He also described so-called Indian democracy in this article: Http://berclo.net/page00/00en-india-1.html
"India is said to be the world's largest democracy. There is no dispute about its size, one billion is large, but I don't think that a country whose major priorities in the last 50 years have favored a small minority at the expense of the majority can be called "a democracy". "
Socialism or capitalism both are economical models and both can push economy ahead.
Socialism is not associated with slow development in history. USSR was converted into a modern economy in a short time in its socialism era. Germany was also developing very fast before ww2 even the government controlled economy tightly.
China's economy growth was also around 7% every year before the reform even China's more attention was put on national security. 7% growth can not be thought as slow development even today, let alone China was under embargo.
India's problem was not because of social system. It was largely because the government did not have strategy and had no ability to implement its policy if it has some. That's why India sometimes has good policies, such as education, health care...., but the results are poor.
Today, China's system has both flexibility in policy and ability to implement changes. This can allow us to keep the good policies and makes changes on bad decisions quickly. Good example is China's education system. Our old education system worked very well at low cost. China's illiterate rate dropped to less than 15% even before the reform when China was much poorer. But we trusted market economy too much and we commercialized many parts of the system. After years, it is now proven a disaster and government got a lot of complains. Government input into the system decreased percentage-wise (not by absolute value). a lot of burden was shifted to families. As a country, the total investment into the education system increased a lot, but families' burden increased a lot faster, especially for the poorer family.
Now we are making changes again. The totally free compulsory education will be provided before 2007 nationwide. China decided to make changes in 2005, but now many provinces implemented the new policy already. We are very confident that the new policy will be pushed to all the country in time.
China even CCP does not take care of any ideology any more. As long as we think some new policy is good for China, we can try it and then expanded all over the country quickly if the test proves it works.
In Asia, at least in East Asia, countries or economies can only get rich under the dictatorship not democracy. S Korea, Singapore, Taiwan area and Hong Kong, even Japan. There was no exception.
Japan was de facto one party government arranged by US until recent years the rival party could win. S Korea was completely a dictatorship with the support from US before 1990s. Taiwan did not have real election until 2000 (but it is real unfortunate for Chinese on the island. The election is proven to be disaster. Look at what is happening in Taiwan). Singapore is a dictatorship controlled by Lee family even today. There was no any election in Hong Kong until it was returned to China in 1997.
On the contrary, Philippines were some sort of rich. It was even considered as luck if a Taiwan people could find a job there in 1960s. Philippines has the democratic government that is almost a copy if US's. But now it is almost the poorest country in SE Asia. Taiwan's fast development happened under the dictatorship. Its economy has been stagnant for almost 10 years since election happened on the island.
From both history and today's truth, democracy does not translate into economical development as many people take for granted. You should understand why Goldman asked India government to following China's political model.
14. Economical History
Data show that China developed much faster than India even before China's reform. India was much better than China before the Chinese Communist Party took power. In 1950, India's GDP per capita was almost 1.5 times of China's. But China's GDP caught up India in 70s last century. Now China's GDP per capita is almost 2.5 times of India's
GDP Per capita ( I believe it is based on PPP)
This is only the economical data. China was doing much better than India in social development before the reform, such as education, health service, scientific R&D, …. These laid down a very solid foundation for China's economical reform that happened in late 1970s. Many people say India lags behind China because of its late economical reform. It is not true in fact. The truth is: China did better than India before the reform and is continuing to do better than India after the reform.
15. Some more links
India asks how its economy can catch up with China's
India Versus China-- Was written by some Indians
Can India Catch-Up With China? -- Was written by some Indians
The Population Bomb that can devastate India, actually it is a comparison between India and China
Can India catch up with China?
Can India Overtake China? -- The famous article saying India will overtake China
16. Conclusion
The above links come from various resources. I collect these data to show the facts to people because I have heard too much from Indian high rank officials and Indian and western media that say: India is better than China, India has more potential than China, India is more innovative than China, India is better in quality and China is better in quantity… All of these claims are basing on facts, at least today.
India's economy is doing well in recent 3 or 4 years and the trend could continue for some time. I wish Indian people can enjoy their good life and make progress.
China has been high economical growth since 1949 even China had some setback during the Great Leap during 1959-1961 and the early stage of the Cultural Revolution during 1966-1970. The Cultural Revolution lasted for 10 years from 1966-1976, but China's economy recovered and was in growth path after 1970.
In the past about 60 years, India's economy was caught up by China and was put behind by China. Today, China's economy is still growing at more than 10% pace, India, around 8%. These are simple facts.
Undoubtedly, China is a developing country with population of 1.3 billion. It has a lot of issues in the past, in today and in the future. I don't deny that.
#2 sbs1zc
- Full Members
- 249 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 09:38 AM
#3 Shareef
- Full Members
- 287 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 10:15 AM
all spooofed statistics of the Communists!!
One word: India has democracy, the freedom.
We are free people.
I can abuse Atal Bihari Vajpayee and still live to see the next day.
If you don't write good about CHina and if you try to post dissenting views, you will be arrested and will probably spend your lifetime in Jail....
or if you walk out of your house without ID papers to prove your residence, you can be trashed...
Man, this is the difference. Only difference.
All the Chinese statistics are just propaganda. Trash that is.
#4 sbs1zc
- Full Members
- 249 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 10:30 AM
How do you say that is China's propaganda by 90% of the links are western sites? :(Blah :(Blah :(Blah I believe if the stats are fraud, the western commentators will never refer them in their studies. Aren't they much wiser than Indians in terms of economics???
he he he..
all spooofed statistics of the Communists!!
One word: India has democracy, the freedom.
We are free people.
I can abuse Atal Bihari Vajpayee and still live to see the next day.
If you try to overthrew your loved government, I bet you will be arrest as well.
If you don't write good about CHina and if you try to post dissenting views, you will be arrested and will probably spend your lifetime in Jail.....
Man can you calculate 50 divided by 80million (internet uesrs)? How big is the chance the one get arrest when he posting his different views? China only arrest some extremists who are usually sponsored by foreign orgnisations and tried to overthrow our country and leak the state's secrets.
By the same logic, if girls walk around Indian president garden without doing anything illegal, she can be raped by presidential guards... democracy for raping??
or if you walk out of your house without ID papers to prove your residence, you can be trashed...
Man, this is the difference. Only difference.
All the Chinese statistics are just propaganda. Trash that is.
India is much worse than China despite it is democratic. LOL face the facts, only losers like you become med when he cannot accept the facts!
#5 mazhouma
- Jr. Members
- 200 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 10:34 AM
:jumpgreen: :jumpgreen: :jumpgreen: :jumpgreen: :jumpgreen:
#6 Gs_0629
- Jr. Members
- 539 posts
- Location:Illinois, U.S.A.
Posted 07 March 2004 - 12:57 PM
#7 sbs1zc
- Full Members
- 249 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 01:03 PM
only 50 over 80,000,000. the Chance is 0.000000625, which is neglectable. If the 50 people every year didn'd do something "extraordinary", what is point for our govenment to catch them?
Chinese get put in prison for insulting their government ON THE INTERNET. Enough said. I'd rather be an Indian than a Chinese anyday.
#8 mazhouma
- Jr. Members
- 200 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 01:12 PM
#9 Gs_0629
- Jr. Members
- 539 posts
- Location:Illinois, U.S.A.
Posted 07 March 2004 - 01:20 PM
#10 hiiii
- Senior Members
- 1,246 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 02:01 PM
One word: India has democracy, the freedom.
We are free people.
The freedom for most children to die within a few months...
The freedom to be extremely poor..and worse than chinese beggars...
The freedom to suffer while your corrupt govt is spending all of its money on military...resembles soviets...
#11 hiiii
- Senior Members
- 1,246 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 02:05 PM
not like your people have a say on what to spend the money on...at least Chinese govt care about its ppl...
Ha, you Chinese just don't know what freedom is. Millions of people have to move because your retarded government wants to build that three whatever dam. They had absolutely no voice in the matter. Lets see how you feel when some gov official comes up to your door and says you have a year to move because they have another useless project.
evidence: bbc article from http://pakistanidefe...showtopic=27358
#12 Tim
- Full Members
- 696 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 02:08 PM
GDP More than twice of Indian GDP
Infrastructure lets not talk about it, Indians will be embarrassed
Law and order Much better in China
Social indicator quarter of a century of lead over India
Foreign Trade I think EXIM to GDP ratio for China would be highest for any major country in the world.....no comparison with India here
Indians only score on political, administrative and private sector development over china.
Political Democracy, diversity, free press, freethinking scholars
Administrative Judiciary, regulators, Election commissioners, apolitical armed forces etc
Private sector Matured market, stock market, Banking sys, private entrepreneur
Historical GDPs
In 1950 Chinas GDP was slightly higher than that of Indias
By 1970 Indias GDP was almost twice than that of Chinas
By 2003 Chinas GDP is more than twice than that of Indias
In 2030 ?? ??
Well, Some of the inherent reasons India legged behind China in social development are
Food security India could not achieve food security until 1978 and every one thought that India would never be able to achieve this. This took focus off almost every thing else.
Energy security China was not an importer of oil and gas until early 90s. It found huge reserves of hydrocarbons in its land. Still today Chinas fuel import as a percentage of total requirement is much lower than that of Indias. Also Chinas coal reserves are much better quality compared to Indias. This energy constrain puts a huge financial burden on Indian economy compared to Chinas.
Political system Authoritative rules have greater flexibility of taking and implementing decisions without fear of political consequences. India because of huge diversity of its population always had softer leadership with narrow focus on making today better while Chinese leadership had long time (no 5 year elections) to think and implement policies thanks to their political system.
Neighborhood Well lets not talk about a colony of beggars they call South Asia compared to Dragon land where almost every one is richer than China.
#13 mazhouma
- Jr. Members
- 200 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 02:13 PM
China: Tell the ppl to move pay them money for a new house, pay for their temporary accomidation, even pay for the cost of moving their homes, and even start program help people find new jobs.
India: Tell u to leave, u don't leave the police come beat u up with a stick, 3 months later u're on the road with broken legs begging for food by winter u're dead, frozen to death on the streets of Calcutta.
And the Indian gov loves its ppl
#14 macau boy
- Senior Members
- 4,561 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 02:18 PM
Here's a hint: tens of billions in hard cash have been paid to the Russians for second hand ships, same amounts have been sent to the US, Israel, England and France for toys so that someone like you can brag and level insults in an internet forum like this.
I trust all Indians must be enjoying the best possible life on earth, thus no need for dams and hydro, no need for power plants, no need for flood control, and no need to give a damn about its own people!
Well done, India!
#15 hiiii
- Senior Members
- 1,246 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 02:55 PM
So,...my little Indian, what has your "progressive and democratic" government done for you folks lately? Any idea? :cat
Here's a hint: tens of billions in hard cash have been paid to the Russians for second hand ships, same amounts have been sent to the US, Israel, England and France for toys so that someone like you can brag and level insults in an internet forum like this.
I trust all Indians must be enjoying the best possible life on earth, thus no need for dams and hydro, no need for power plants, no need for flood control, and no need to give a damn about its own people!
Well done, India!
#16 oneman28
- Full Members
- 712 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 02:58 PM
I just added the internet users and the link to the report about the corruption index for Asia countries and areas the other post in this forum mentioned .
#17 shaolin
- Full Members
- 139 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 03:07 PM
Do not understand why we need to compare China with a #### country, man, that is too much...
you know what I am thinking?
An Indickk, buried in dirty garbage without underwear, brags about Indickk ###### style democracy. you know he does not worry about anything, pick up garbage around him when he is angry, close his eyes when he needs sleep, grab a bottle of cow pissss when he is thirsty, what a paradise!
Stop comparing Chines with inferiors please , fukk them all.
#18 oneman28
- Full Members
- 712 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 03:16 PM
I just want to show the facts here because I read too many articles (most were written by Indians) saying India will be better than China soon.
#19 shaolin
- Full Members
- 139 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 03:23 PM
Alright, DO whatever you think is necessary, I just put my foot in their asses, polite? to whom? I will be polite with my middle figure to them.
But I will never waste my time on indickks
Fukk them again.
#20 hiiii
- Senior Members
- 1,246 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 03:27 PM
Alright, DO whatever you think is necessary, I just put my foot in their asses, polite? to whom? I will be polite with my middle figure to them.
But I will never waste my time on indickks
Fukk them again.
:megalol :megalol :megalol :megalol :megalol :megalol
#21 realist
- Senior Members
- 1,760 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 03:28 PM
Currently there is no comparison between the countries. China is better developed, has a more advanced infrastructre and supposedly also better health standars.
Chinease are not free people.
We do not really know the life expectancy of china as the government does not allow outside agencies to verify the claims.
The chinese boom is soon to bust. Most of the government companies are heavyliy geard with huge debts. A Chinese bust by the way is going to be very bad for the world economy.
#22 shaolin
- Full Members
- 139 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 03:41 PM
Chinease are not free people.
We Chinese enjoy our freedom living in reasonable good conditions, work together to solve our own problems and make our country a better one. That is our freedom, that is your ###### business.
Put an underwear first before you ###### point your finger at others.
Indickkk style "freedom" and "democracy " have nothing in common with Westerns, you ###### can claim whatever you want, but at the bottom of your heart, you ###### indiots know you need an underwear first!
We do not really know the life expectancy of china as the government does not allow outside agencies to verify the claims.
I was accused of raping your sis, go and verify it, motherfukker. China is not yours, it is not your ###### business, ##### off!
The chinese boom is soon to bust. Most of the government companies are heavyliy geard with huge debts. A Chinese bust by the way is going to be very bad for the world economy.
It will burst in your daytime dream, your motherfukker, you dream you mom will be in my bed too?
#23 Alliance
- Full Members
- 336 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 03:42 PM
how is thing going on???
Donot brag your democracy system infront of Chinese. That political system is just your sheepmark forcedly stamped by your master Britain. For your people with 50% of illiterate who cannot read, can not even use pencil to check or circle, your democracy is indeed largest crap in this world, largest bullshit in this world.
Trust me, india will go dismemeber once all ethnic group cannot bear the oppression from cow-worshipping Hindu, as long as Chin give a little leverge.
#24 macau boy
- Senior Members
- 4,561 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 04:13 PM
I suggest that all Indians start their celebration on their fantasyland success over China right now as they are poised to overtake the USA any second; less they don't know how to deal with two celebrations at the same time. Too complex an undertaking for these guys and Uncle Sam may impose economic sanction and military embargo again.
#25 longlake
- Full Members
- 652 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 04:32 PM
India is not an important country in this world, no one give india a sh*t. , they are unimportant, just like every year hundreds of thousands of indians died of hot weather, cold weather, lack of food and clean water, It has nothing to do with China, nor Pak , so what , just let them die, we do not need to know that. they said they are democratic and free , hell who care, they like to live in sh*t hole.
We just need to make our life better, make more money, bigger house, bigger TV, bigger car, more highway. who care what you indian says. life for us is getting better and better.
Just leave those poor indian losers alone.
Although I agree this is a very good topic......
Keep up boys..........
#26 sbs1zc
- Full Members
- 249 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 04:37 PM
For your people with 50% of illiterate who cannot read, can not even use pencil to check or circle, your democracy is indeed largest crap in this world, largest bullshit in this world.
That is crucial point which explains the failure of Indian style domecracy very well. :)Clp :)Clp
#27 Discolite5
- Banned
- 126 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 04:41 PM
Saolin says what he says with very little respect. Surely he has been taught how to speak with respect. However he is saying the right thing. China should not be compared to India unless India is looked upon as a counter weight. India will continue to provide some obstacles but China is gunning for the US.
The chinese can say what they want, and until India shows that it can match it number of number, its a whipping. There are varaibles that have no doubt played the major role in Chinas success, which are not present in India.
This is a article which explains what the Chinese are doing:
Apart from that, I have never been scared or frightened by any China man. You are having a laugh if you think a Chinaman is a threat. I would quite happily b1tch slap him anyday..... dont make me laugh with ur stumpy comments shaolin
#28 shaolin
- Full Members
- 139 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 04:43 PM
you know what Indickk's freedom and democracy are ?
In my eyes, Indickkk freedom and democracy == Caste system.
In other words, most of indickk are slaves, some so called elites ( actually they are morons) in Indickkland have to find excuses for it. the world largest slave that is Indickk style democracy------the world largest slave land
I :megalol :megalol :megalol
#29 hiiii
- Senior Members
- 1,246 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 04:44 PM
Apart from that, I have never been scared or frightened by any China man. You are having a laugh if you think a Chinaman is a threat. I would quite happily b1tch slap him anyday.....
I'll gladly slap you all the way back to wherever u came from...you will be scared of a Chinaman if Yao Ming wanted to kick ur ass...
#30 flash
- Full Members
- 268 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 04:44 PM
Pakistanis too prefer democratic system..Musharraf is being tolerated because the leaders have failed Pakistan to a great degree....but most Pakistanis dont want to live under a dictatorship..
Communist Party will slowly bring in democratic reforms in CHina it hink..
#31 Guest_tauseef_1981_*
- Guests
Posted 07 March 2004 - 04:46 PM
#32 hiiii
- Senior Members
- 1,246 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 04:47 PM
:megalol :megalol :)Clp
India SUCKS
#33 shaolin
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- 139 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 05:02 PM
A cage is still a cage even if its golden..most people prefer death over the loss of liberty..probably thats why Chinese govt. is thinking of slow democratic reforms..
In Indickkland,
Cage == Democracy ===freedom == Caste System
In China,
Cage == unmature political system full of open-minded people with reasonable human rights, free speechs and equal economic growth rights which roots in its current balance of powers of all people.
#34 sbs1zc
- Full Members
- 249 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 05:10 PM
Singapore is also a dictatorship, which has lowest sorruption and highest income in the world. Democracy only works on the basis of western culture, especially when the country's average education level is low. Singapore has the similar culture as China! We'd rather choose to go by the Singapore's history path than poor India's.
A cage is still a cage even if its golden..most people prefer death over the loss of liberty..probably thats why Chinese govt. is thinking of slow democratic reforms..
Pakistanis too prefer democratic system..Musharraf is being tolerated because the leaders have failed Pakistan to a great degree....but most Pakistanis dont want to live under a dictatorship..
Communist Party will slowly bring in democratic reforms in CHina it hink..
#35 Alliance
- Full Members
- 336 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 05:23 PM
just like every year hundreds of thousands of indians died of hot weather, cold weather, lack of food and clean water, It has nothing to do with China, nor Pak , so what , just let them die, we do not need to know that. they said they are democratic and free , hell who care, they like to live in sh*t hole.
In their tombstone inscrition reads: They have enoumous courage not to comprise their democracy belief for living, though never have they really understood the meaning of democracy, though never have they be able to read a sinlge alphabetic character. Once before they had been told to suffer in order to have a great afterlive, when this trick is no more effective, they have been told that they should stop complain since they should be happy to be able to stay in one of most democratic country. Next meal does not matter. If you miss one, you are just feeling dizzy; if you miss two, you are just feeling disoriented; ..... if you miss 10, great lucky you are !!!! The hindustan's heaven is waiting for you, where you will enjoy bountiful food, no suffering. Unfortunately there will lose most valuble you eerned on earth, i.e. democracy. Nobody believe that God will allow you to adopt democratic means to cast vote on who should be next term god.
#36 shaolin
- Full Members
- 139 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 06:26 PM
Shut your ###### stupid mouth, I do not talk to inferior indickks. You morons do not deserve my ...........................................dick!
---------- ##### you too.
#37 hiiii
- Senior Members
- 1,246 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 06:33 PM
Shut your ###### stupid mouth, I do not talk to inferior indickks. You morons do not deserve my ...........................................dick!
---------- ##### you too.
:megalol :megalol :megalol :megalol :megalol :megalol :megalol
#38 dabrownguy
- Banned
- 392 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 06:34 PM
#39 dabrownguy
- Banned
- 392 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 06:41 PM
This is just another perfect example of another Chinese who got brainwashed into thinking he's superior. :megalol
Do not understand why we need to compare China with a #### country, man, that is too much...
you know what I am thinking?
An Indickk, buried in dirty garbage without underwear, brags about Indickk ###### style democracy. you know he does not worry about anything, pick up garbage around him when he is angry, close his eyes when he needs sleep, grab a bottle of cow pissss when he is thirsty, what a paradise!
Stop comparing Chines with inferiors please , fukk them all.
#40 h177
- Banned
- 3,808 posts
Posted 07 March 2004 - 06:43 PM
Five Decades of U.S.- India Cooperation
To date, India has received the equivalent of $13 billion in U.S. economic assistance ($52.7 billion in today's dollars). The nature of this economic assistance has been based on the Indian government's requests and its changing requirements as the economy developed.
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text:
- if you want to Download Cut the Rope: Experiments apk to your phone then download it from Here
Installiing Froad from the Market :
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subset: commoncrawl


text:
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text:
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:match-free is missing
Major Section: EVENTS
Legal Forms: (set-match-free-error nil) :set-match-free-error nil (set-match-free-error t) :set-match-free-error t
As described elsewhere (see free-variables), when a rewrite,
linear, or forward-chaining rule has free variables in its
hypotheses, the user can specify whether to try all bindings
:all'') or just the first (``
:once'') when relieving its
hypotheses, as a basis for relieving subsequent hypotheses. This direction
:all or
:once is generally provided by specifying either
:match-free :once or :match-free :all in the
of the rule.
But suppose that neither of these is specified, and that
set-match-free-default has not specified a default of
:once or
:all (see set-match-free-default). In this case a warning will occur
except when in the context of
include-book. If you prefer to see an
error in such cases, except in the context of
certify-book, execute
(set-match-free-error t). If there is no error, then a default of
:all is used.
Note: This is NOT an event! Instead,
set-match-free-error sets the
state global
'match-free-error (see state and see assign). Thus, this
form cannot be put into a book. If you are tempted to put it into a book,
consider the fact that it really isn't needed there, since the absence of
:match-free does not cause an error in the context of
include-book. If you still feel the need for such a form, consider
set-match-free-default to provide a default, at least within the
scope of the current book (if any); see set-match-free-default.


text:
A Manual of Electric Measurements
Addison-Wesley Press, 1950 - Electric measurements
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The Writing of Experimental Reports
Exp 23 The Constants of a Current Galvanometer
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Tuesday, January 26, 2010
Tesco Update
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On Monday night I saw a most disgusting sight.
My congressman, George Michael Kelly, came prancing off the voting floor of the House of Representatives, with his tongue sticking out, his jacket off and a grin on his face that showed off his continual arrogance.
I was embarrassed.
This man has voted again and again against bills that will allow women equal rights in regards to their health care and equal pay; and continues to delay on removing a law that will allow people with pre-existing health conditions to finally receive medical treatment that they would otherwise have been denied.
Republican or Democrat is not the point; humanity for all; every class, color, religion and economic status deserves the right to health care in this country.
Follow how he votes at: www.govtrack.us/congress/ members/mike_kelly412465.
I ask each of you who truly cares for your neighbor, friend or family member to follow this website and observe how Kelly really votes. If you follow it, you will find out that he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
Kelly represents District 3, which includes most of Butler County; his next election is in 2014 and his largest contributors have helped create a campaign war chest of more than $350,000 to help him win another term.
Be sure to read the bills he has sponsored and the ones he has voted against. Match his voting records against your concerns — and interests for all.
Another website you may find very interesting is: www.open secrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cid=N00031647#cont.


text:
Jeff Brady
Jeff Brady is a NPR National Desk Correspondent based in Philadelphia. He covers the mid-Atlantic region and the energy industry.
In this role, Brady reports on the business of energy, from concerns over hydraulic fracturing in Western Pennsylvania to the oil boom in North Dakota and solar developments in the desert Southwest. With a focus on the consumer, Brady's reporting addresses how the energy industry intersects consumers' perspective at the gas pump and light switch.
Frequently traveling throughout the country for NPR, Brady has covered just about every major domestic news event in the past decade. Before moving to Philadelphia in July 2011, Brady was based in Denver and covered the west for NPR.
In 2005, Brady was among the NPR reporters who covered the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. His reporting on flooded cars left behind after the storm exposed efforts to stall the implementation of a national car titling system. Today, the National Motor Vehicle Title Information System is operational and the Department of Justice estimates it could save car buyers up to $11 billion a year.
Before coming to NPR in September 2003, Brady was a reporter at Oregon Public Broadcasting (OPB) in Portland. He has also worked in commercial television as an anchor and a reporter; and commercial radio as a talk-show host and reporter.
Brady graduated with a Bachelor of Arts in Communications from Southern Oregon State College (now Southern Oregon University).


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I've been asking you for weeks for help.
But you're not helping
If you were helping it would be different.
And I just want to finish this comic. I've been saying that all along... why aren't you listening to me?
I don't think it is a good habit to abandon things you start. No one is listening to that I am going to finish it and go back to what I am doing before.
I am so stressed out by you
because you don't listen or help.
You don't listen
You're in your own little world that doesn't include giving love and affection or listening to me
You don't believe in the power of love at all.
It shows
I fucking hate this. Everyone harasses and bugs me like they own my life, but where do I spend my time? In a room alone. They don't come visit or care I'm alone
Good ol me, always reliable, waiting at the computer to jump at their beckon call.
Who cares if I have to spend all my time alone and every holiday alone... everyone can overlokk that because I'm just some internet person. I don't exist beyond the internet as a person to anyone.
I think you guys are all being inhumane dicks about everything. No, I'm not going to do what you say all the time, fuck you
If you cared, you'd be here
You wouldn't just treat me like an internet person. I'm not an internet person here to follow your every command.
Sitting by the computer
You all take me for granted
Who gives a shit if the internet person spends Christmas alone
Who cares if the internet person has no money for food or a problem.
Who cares
Go away
more one-way conversations below...


text:
Please help us! Donate
Vote Smart Just The Facts
"Experts nearly all recommend Vote Smart."
"Vote Smart is a bright light in an often desultory civic culture."
- Bill Moyers
"We think so highly of Vote Smart that we are distributing their materials to all of our affiliates."
Key Votes
HR 725 - Tribal Law Enforcement Amendments - National Key Vote
- July 21, 2010 House Concurrence Vote Passed
- June 23, 2010 Senate Bill Passed
- Jan. 19, 2010 House Bill Passed
- Jan. 27, 2009 Introduced
Issues Related to HR 725
Stage Details
Legislation -
Concurrence Vote Passed
(326-92) -
July 21, 2010(Key vote)
See How Your Politicians Voted
Title: Tribal Law Enforcement Amendments
Vote Result
Yea Votes
Nay Votes
Vote Smart's Synopsis:
Vote to concur with Senate amendments and pass a bill that expands the authority of tribal courts and expands federal participation in the enforcement and prosecution of violations of federal laws in "Indian country," meaning all land within the limits of any Indian reservation and all dependent Indian communities and Indian allotments.
- Requires U.S. Attorneys for each district that includes Indian country to appoint at least 1 assistant U.S. Attorney to serve as a tribal liaison for the district, and establishes the following duties of the tribal liaison (Sec. 213):
- Coordinating and prosecuting federal crimes;
- Developing multidisciplanary teams to address child abuse, domestic violence, and sexual violence;
- Consulting and coordinating with tribal justice officials and victims' advocates to address any backlog of the prosecutions of major crimes;
- Developing relationships and maintaining communication with tribal leaders, tribal community and victims' advocates, and tribal justice officials to gather information from, and share appropriate information with, tribal justice officials;
- Coordinating with tribal prosecutors in cases in which a tribal government has a concurrent jurisdiction over an alleged crime, in advance of the expiration of any applicable statute of limitations;
- Providing technical assistance and training on evidence gathering and victim and witness protection to tribal justice officers and other individuals that are instrumental to responding to "Indian country" crimes;
- Conducting training sessions and seminars to certify special law enforcement commissions to tribal justice officials and other individuals responsible for responding to Indian country crimes;
- Coordinating with the Office of Tribal Justice; and
- Conducting other activities to address and prevent crime as determined by the applicable U.S. Attorney.
- Expands the authority of tribal courts to impose a penalty or punishment for any 1 conviction as follows (Sec. 234):
- Existing law: up to 1 year imprisonment, $5,000 fine, or both for any 1 offense; and
- New law:
- Up to 3 years imprisonment, $15,000 fine, or both for any 1 offense, provided the defendant has been convicted of the same or comparable offense by any jurisdiction of the U.S., or is being prosecuted for an offense comparable to an offense that would be punishable by 1 year imprisonment if prosecuted by the U.S. or any of the states; and
- Up to 9 years imprisonment as a total penalty or punishment in any 1 criminal proceeding.
- Requires Indian tribes to do the following if a tribal court is conducting a criminal proceeding in which the defendant faces more than 1 year imprisonment (Sec. 234):
- Provide defendants with the right of effective assistance of council at least equal to that guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution;
- Provide indigent defendants the assistance of a defense attorney at the expense of the tribal government who is licensed to practice law in any jurisdiction in the U.S. that applies "appropriate professional licensing standards and effectively ensures ... competence and professional responsibility";
- Require the judge to be licensed to practice law and have "sufficient legal training";
- Make publicly available, before charging the defendant, the criminal laws, rules of evidence, and the rules of criminal procedure of the tribal government; and
- Maintain a record of the criminal proceeding.
- Requires U.S. Attorneys to do the following if he or she declines to prosecute, or terminates the prosecution of, an alleged violation of federal criminal law in Indian country (Sec. 212):
- Coordinate with the appropriate tribal justice officials on the status of the investigation and the evidence relevant to the case; and
- Submit to the Native American Issues Coordinator information on the alleged violations of federal criminal law, including the types of crimes alleged, whether the accused and the victim are Indians or non-Indians, and reasons for deciding to decline or terminate the prosecutions.
- Expands the authority of the Bureau of Justice Statistics to collect, analyze, maintain, publish, and disseminate crime data in Indian country, and requires the Director of the Bureau and the Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs to work with Indian tribes and tribal law enforcement agencies to establish and implement tribal data collection systems (Sec. 251).
- Requires the Attorney General to authorize tribal and Bureau of Indian Affairs law enforcement agencies to access and enter information into federal criminal information databases and obtain information from the databases (Sec. 233).
- Requires the Secretary of the Division of Law Enforcement Services in Indian Country to ensure that the training standards for tribal police officers meet the following criteria (Sec. 231):
- Are consistent with the standards accepted by the Federal Law Enforcement Training Accreditation Commission for law enforcement officers attending similar programs; and
- Include instruction regarding federal sources of authority and jurisdiction, federal crimes, federal rules of criminal procedure, and constitutional law to bridge the gap between state training and federal requirements.
- Requires the Division of Law Enforcement Services in Indian Country to ensure that tribal police officers are trained on how to properly interview victims of domestic and sexual violence and to collect, preserve, and present evidence to prosecutors to increase the conviction rate for domestic and sexual violence (Sec. 262).
- Authorizes the Secretary of the Division of Law Enforcement Services in Indian Country to employ individuals up to 46 years of age as tribal police officers, provided the individual meets all other applicable hiring requirements (Sec. 231).
- Requires the Director of the Indian Health Service, in coordination with the Director of the Office of Justice Services and the Director of the Office on Violence Against Women of the Department of Justice, to develop standardized sexual assault policies and protocol for the facilities of the Service, based on similar protocol that has been established by the Department of Justice (Sec. 265).
- Requires the Attorney General to establish the Office of Tribal Justice as a component of the Department of Justice within 90 days of the date of enactment, and establishes the following duties of the Office (Sec. 106):
- Serve as the program and legal policy advisor to the Attorney General with respect to the treaty and trust relationship between the U.S. and Indian tribes;
- Serve as the point of contact for federally recognized tribal governments and tribal organizations with respect to questions and comments on the policies and programs of the Department and issues related to public safety and justice in Indian country; and
- Coordinate with other bureaus, agencies, offices, and divisions within the Department to ensure that each component has an accountable process to ensure "meaningful and timely consultation" with tribal leaders in the development of regulatory policies and other actions that affect the trust responsibilities of the U.S. to Indian Tribes, any tribal treaty provision, the status of Indian tribes as sovereign governments, or any other tribal interest.
Legislation - Bill Passed With Amendment (Senate) - June 23, 2010
Legislation - Bill Passed (House) - Jan. 19, 2010
Legislation - Introduced (House) - Jan. 27, 2009
Title: Tribal Law Enforcement Amendments
- Edward López 'Ed' Pastor (AZ - D) (Out Of Office)
- Joe Baca Sr. (CA - D) (Out Of Office)
- Raul M. Grijalva (AZ - D)
- Martin T. Heinrich (NM - D) (Out Of Office)
- Ann Kirkpatrick (AZ - D) (Out Of Office)
- Ben Ray Lujan Jr. (NM - D)
- Silvestre 'Silver' Reyes (TX - D) (Out Of Office)


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San Sebastian
San Sebastián [12] (Basque: Donostia; officially: Donostia-San Sebastián) is in the Basque Country in Spain.
San Sebastian boasts one of the best in-city beaches in Europe. It is quite unusual feeling that you can sunbathe and swim right next to major historical buildings and churches. Surfers are in abundance here.
The city is quite small and cozy, featuring many fish restaurants, several beaches, tons of pintxos bars and a choice of designer clothes shops.
Orientation: The city is divided into Old Town (Parte Vieja), Gros and Centro.
Get in
By train
Trains arrive from many parts of Spain, Portugal and France, including overnight services from Paris and Lisbon. Take care when booking from France as there is also a town named Saint Sébastien in France. There are two train stations in San Sebastian: the RENFE [13] station for national and local trains (at the east end of Puente de Maria Cristina), and the Euskotren [14] station for the local network (Plaza Easo).
By plane
San Sebastian is well served by airports:
By bus
The Basque Country is generally easier to get around by bus than by train. Buses arrive and depart at the San Sebastian bus station, at Plaza de Pio XII in Amara Nuevo. A number of bus companies operate services to San Sebastian, including:
Buses are the only way to get to some areas of the Basque region, and often run more often (and cheaper!) than trains. Vitoria-Gasteiz, capital of the Basque Country, is a 2-hour ride away. Bilbao, the travel hub and biggest city in the region (1-hour ride), and Pamplona (1-hour ride) are other popular destinations, but longer-range buses do overnights to Madrid, Milan and even Barcelona.
By car
In the downtown, parking is costly (roughly €20/day); most parking spots are underground, and finding a way to get there can be nerve-wracking. Left turns are more rare than rights (and are unpredictable). Having a driving map is essential.
There are some free parking lots in the west of the city: on the tourist maps by SanSebastianTurismo available in some guesthouses, the area is marked with a blue dotted line "Controlled parking zone".
Get around
You can see San Sebastián on foot and by taxi.
Bicycle lanes are all around the downtown, and in the summer bicycles can be hired (at certain times they are free) from strategically placed locations around the city.
D-Bus offers a number of options to use its bus services in the city. Single journeys to any destination on its network cost a flat rate of €1.40. However, for residents staying for longer periods, they may wish to buy the 'Kutxa chip' card available from Kutxa Bank's main office at C/ Garibay 15, close to the Parte Vieja, for €5.50. After the initial purchase, the card can be topped up on ATM's all over the city and instead of paying the flat rate of €1.40, holders merely swipe their card and pay €0.73 for each journey.
It's also possible to buy and top up a tourist card, valid for 10 days, at some newsagents. The card costs €2.60 after which each journey is €0.75. The card can be used to pay for up to five people. Touch it against the electronic card reader as you get on the bus, once per passenger.
Clothes and shoes
San Sebastian is known as a stylish city and an image-conscious one, so it is stuffed with high-end shops. Peruse La Parte Vieja (the old part of town) for cool boutiques filled with quirky designer gear. There are fantastic shoe stores--I remember one in particular whose rainbow of amazing women's shoes in the window changed daily--and sources for that inimitable bold Spanish fashion.
Designer clothes for men are much more difficult to find than for women.
Most shops are freestanding, but there is an enclosed shopping mall (La Brexta) that has the cineplex (as well as the city's lone McDonald's) as well as a collection of high street shops in the modern Nuevo Mercardo San Martin complex [27].
Some of the designer shops worthwhile visiting are:
The Basque cuisine is famous within Spain and many believe it is the Basque Country where you can find the best food. Much of this fame comes from San Sebastian and its bars and restaurants. Although tapas were invented in Andalucia they became perfected in San Sebastian and a walk through the old town before lunch time with its many bars shows why. Each bar is bursting with tapas and they look very delicate. Tapas are generally enjoyed together with a glass of wine or a small beer, and the Spanish tradition suggests to have one tapa and a wine in one bar and move on to the next bar. Tapas can be used as a good substitute for a meal - you pay for each one you eat (about €2-4 each) so you can have as many as you want. If you want 'real' food then that is where San Sebastian can be very very good. You can find several different cuisines such Chinese, German, Galician, Italian and of course the obvious Basque cuisine. In and around the harbour you can have the freshest seafood and if you don't enjoy the simple harbour taverns go and enjoy San Sebastian restaurants with Michelin stars if you have some money to spare.
Lo Mejor de la Gastronomia [28] holds annual conference and competition in November, including nominations for pintxos bars and for restaurants.
Healthy breakfast (even omelet) is hard to find in cafes: typically sandwiches or breakfast variety of pintxos are offered.
Tel. 943 244 150
Lunch and dining
The way to eat pintxos, (tapas in the Basque Country whether speaking Spanish or Basque) in San Sebastian is quite different from other cities in Spain. There are two kinds of tapas: cold and hot ones.
Don't attempt to eat pintxos if you're starving, you'll treat it like a buffet and prices will easily rack up as everything seems more appealing. Only get a couple of pintxos at a time as sometimes what looks really appealing, has been sitting on the bar the whole day and is past it's use by date. Test the waters.
Cold ones are displayed on the bar. Just ask the barman for your drink and pick the pintxos yourself. If you need a plate, just ask. Hot ones must be ordered from the barman and they take a short time to be cooked. There is always a hot tapas menu hanging from the wall.
When you are done eating your tapas and have finished your drink you ask the barman for the bill, and you have to tell him what you have eaten. It is very important to be honest, as it is a long tradition. Locals will be upset if they find people eating and not paying. Normally you don't eat many pintxos at one bar but move from bar to bar, drinking a beer (caña) or wine and eating one or two tapas. Then you move to another bar. Traditionally residents would have one or two pintxos in the early evening to stave off any hunger before a later sit-down meal, rather than making a meal out of a large number of pintxos.
Generally, if the barman asks you to show your plate to them before you start eating, you know the bar markets towards tourists and is sub par and more expensive that it should be. A good bar will ask you what you've eaten as you pay and you should see a chef working out the back.
Most pintxo bars are to be found in the old town, particularly on the streets running parallel to Boulevard. Generally a pintxo will cost €2-3. At some bars the pintxos are all priced the same, at others the price depends on the pintxo.
Pintxos (tapas) bars are thick in the Parte Vieja (Old Town), but there are masses of other places nearby in the Gros and Centro areas. Most bars charge by the toothpick or plate from €1-5.
The Jamon Iberico (usually seen hanging from the ceiling in whole leg portions) is ubiquitous, and equally good virtually everywhere.
The calamari seems to be the same at every bar, don't order it again at a different pintxo bar if you didn't like it the first time.
Old Town (Parte Vieja)
Cook-by-order pintxos
Some slightly pricier pintxo bars that don't have pre-cooked pintxos and only cook them on order (correspondingly, their pintxo are of higher quality) are:
Local specialties
Coffee is espresso, not brewed, even in the on-the-beach cafes.
Cider and Sidreria
A purely Guipuzcoan experience, sidrerias dot the countryside and offer all you can drink sidra (a mildly alcoholic apple flavored cider) shooting straight from the barrel. Sidrerias usually offer a traditional set menu of cod omelette, cod with peppers, txuleta (really thick steak), and then for dessert: cheese, walnuts and membrillo (quince paste). The cider house season runs from the end of January to the end of May, but a couple of traditional sidrerias that are open all year (you'll need to get a car, bus or taxi from town) are:
A great Pension / Hostel in the center of San Sebastian. Close to the beaches and all the bars and restaurants.
WiFi zones can be seen in a cafe on the Ondarreta beach; in many bars in the Old City. It's unclear whether they are paid or free of charge.
There are many WiFi points throughout the city and indicated by a white WiFi symbol on street-posts. These are free to access.
Get out


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Too Far Everywhere: The Romantic Heroine in Nineteenth-century Australia
University of Queensland Press, 1998 - Fiction - 236 pages
The deliberate exclusion of women's romances resulted in the development of an Australian culture based on a masculine bush ethos. In recovering previously neglected women's texts, Giles argues for a more inclusive and heterogeneous view.
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How to get to Arena ? Where is the nearest airport ?
What is the best way to get there by road ? And by train ?
Where to sleep ? What not to miss in Calabria ?
….are you planning your visit to Arena ?
Many tourists come to Italy, but they are trapped often in the usual tours.
This kind of journey can be good for typical tourists, but it's not enough for us with an Italian Side.
If Arena is your ancestors town, you can't miss it in your Italian journey!
In Calabria there are so many enchanting places to discover, never included in traditional tourist routes.
Calabria with its great range of attractions offers you an unforgettable experience
Tourists choosing Calabria as their journey destination are for the most part attracted by its 800 km of coasts. Calabrian coasts and beaches, from white sand to cliffs, offers different seaside resort opportunities within few kilometres distance.
But nature in Calabria is generous for the extension of its woods and highlands of its 3 parks (Pollino ,Sila, and Aspromonte) too: they are near the coast, so within a few km drive tourists can reach them from the seashore to have a different holiday.
In cooperation with best regional tour operators, ItalianSide is ready to arrange for you a customized tour tailored to your needs and your desires.
A slow travel, a journey not in a hurry, no bus chase.
Take your time, choose what to see and what to do and define all details with local experts.
Visit Arena, stroll through the streets of the old town, discover the most suggestive views, smell flavours , taste good food, meet people, talk with them, listen to their dialect.
If you like, you can complete your tour visiting the main tourist attractions in the province of Vibo Valentia and in the region. With short and not stressful trips , you will have the opportunity to learn more about your ancestors region.
You can get to Calabria by plane or by train: our selected incoming tour operators will welcome you at the airport or at the train station and will take care of you in your journey back to the roots.
See a sample of our genealogy tours in Calabria
For further informations about our suggested tours in Arena and in Calabria , write us at firstname.lastname@example.com.