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Wednesday, October 31, 2007
You Are...Total Dicks!
If you're a regular reader, you know I abhor vulgar fan behavior. There is simply no excuse for the obscene or the threatening at a college football game. None. Zip. Zero. The college football experience is too great to let it be ruined by assholes.
Below is a YouTube clip that was sent our way by a number of you today. It shows some of the worst fan behavior I've ever seen. Period.
The description by the person who posted the video - under the "Comedy" label - reads:
At this Penn State frat party during the day of Penn State's home game against Ohio State in fall of 2007, Ohio State fans attempt to party with them and get what they were asking for.
Get what they were asking for? Are you out of your mind?! NOBODY deserves that treatment at ANY college football game.
The University needs to do something about this. Immediately. That fraternity shown in the clip should be severely disciplined. And the little smiling turd "from Pittsburgh" - and any others who can be identified - should be prosecuted.
Oh, and guess what - I don't want to hear from anybody that "it's worse at Ohio State" or "they do it, too." That is the reason this bullshit continues. Enough excuses. It's time to end this crap. Or do we have to wait until somebody is seriously injured or worse?
And to the laughing DICK who shot the video - you're a complete fucking asshole. And a pussy at that. You're real tough backed up by a mob of hundreds against two guys. And to all the Penn State fans who stood by and did nothing - shame on you. You're all just as guilty.
According to those morons on the video, Fuck Ohio? Not today - Fuck Penn State!
Ed. Note: The original clip was taken down. But this is the Internet age. Once something like that is out there, it's too late to pull it back. I found it again in two seconds on our blog brothers Big Ten Tailgate and EDSBS and reposted it above. Nice try Video/Vulgar Fan Dick Who Tried To Make It Go Away And Save the Asses of Your Douchebag Friends.
UDPATE II: The clip was once again taken down from YouTube. But reader JF pointed us to the new link above.
77 comments:
- WingRG said...
What did I tell you? I just hope (for the sake of 3 OSU fans) that there was just water in those bags. But judging from what i've heard from people, it was probably PISS. A little more humiliating than the powdered doughnut :-)
- October 30, 2007 12:42 PM
- d_ill said...
ah, pike (pi kapppa alpha) boys!!!
- October 30, 2007 12:48 PM
- Mikoyan said...
Wow, big men there. There were what 3 or 4 OSU fans and like 100 PSU folks. I'm impressed at their manliness. I'm even more impressed at the manliness of the one that was throwing stuff at the backs of the OSU folks.
- October 30, 2007 12:50 PM
- Yost said...
Hey, wing, they were beer cans. But it doesn't matter if it was fucking daisies. None of it should happen. Ever. Because food leads to beer cans leads to worse.
- October 30, 2007 12:50 PM
- Sports on a Schtick said...
Makes me kind of glad Penn State got its ass beat at home.
- October 30, 2007 12:51 PM
- srudoff said...
how is this NOT warranted???
after all , we wrote on their sheet right?
- October 30, 2007 12:52 PM
- mpytlik said...
PSU - home of the best student section in college football.
- October 30, 2007 12:54 PM
- Unknown said...
I Have to agree. The University should work with the State College police department to identify those involved in this incident. Fans need to know that bad behavior will have bad consequences. Start with the pinhead that threw the beer on the ESPN crew. We can't have that at State or anywhere else.
- October 30, 2007 12:59 PM
- Mr. Callaham said...
I wonder, if walking down the street in Pittsburgh alone, that skinny little douchebag saw a guy wearing an Ohio State jersey, he'd have the sack to run up and pelt him point blank with a beer can.
I think not.
- October 30, 2007 1:04 PM
- Unknown said...
Hey,vandalism is a crime too. Let's not pretend this stuff doesn't happen at OSU or anywhere else. This conference is supposed to stand for something. The individual universities need to take action before the worst happens.
- October 30, 2007 1:07 PM
- Yost said...
So true, King. So damn true.
- October 30, 2007 1:07 PM
- WingRG said...
i wasn't trivializing anybody's situation it's just that the legend of the powdered doughnut is like a "folk story" at the M-Zone. I was just putting THIS into context.
Beer cans ... wow ... not only is it a waste of perfectly good beer, it can also be pretty dangerous (not to mention make you smell like shit for the rest of the fine afternoon).
I used to love going to Penn State when i played rugby: we parted with those guys, and they always brought in sororities and excellent micro-brew. A good friend of mine even did his Zulu there (and we very seldom did that on the road). Things have certainly changed in the last 5 years.
- October 30, 2007 1:15 PM
- Mikoyan said...
Waste perfectly good beer?
If it's like frat parties when I was going to college, I doubt it's perfectly good beer. I'd wager that it's Busch Light or something similar. That hardly good beer.
But it seems that times change. Back in the day, frat brothers were brothers regardless of the school. sure there'd be some razzing about the game but they could drink over it later.
- October 30, 2007 1:25 PM
- Runngunn29 said...
Sad to see this. I actually met alot of really cool people from OSU this weekend too, which I didnt expect. Hell, my neighbor and roomate actually were randomnly accepted into Brian Hartline's family's tailgate and was treated to all the food and drinks they wanted, despite their jerseys were white and blue.
For the most part I heard alot of visiting Buckeyes had a good time. Sad to see this stupid shit happened.
- October 30, 2007 1:25 PM
- Out of Conference said...
I guess there is white trash every where.
- October 30, 2007 1:32 PM
- JB said...
This is just awful. I would hate to go on the road to see my school play only to face such retarded goonery. It has always been a point of pride that PSU fans were the best/nicest fans to have visit your school and for you to go visit. Sadly, this attitude seems to have been sacrificed to the gods of rowdiness. Why is it impossible to be loud in the stadium but cordial outside of it.
Let no act of ours bring shame...
- October 30, 2007 1:33 PM
- Unknown said...
Thanks for posting this Yost. As a Michigan alumna and current student elsewhere in the Big Ten this is unacceptable and keeps me away from Michigan road games.
I just wrote Penn State's president. Hopefully that dick from Pittsburgh will be sent home permamnetly....
Oh, apparently the Pikas (Pi Kappa Alpha) are the wonderful group of gentlemen responsible.
- October 30, 2007 2:15 PM
- Unknown said...
Since no one has mentioned it yet, give a Buckeye sticker to the recipient of that point-blank beer can toss.
How did he restrain himself from turning around and saying something? 100 versus 3 or not, its human nature to try to defend yourself from something like that.
And note to self: avoid "Happy" Valley.
- October 30, 2007 2:31 PM
- Unknown said...
Just disgusting, but I'll take a half drunken beer can over a folding chair any day.
WE ARE COLLEGE FOOTBALL FANS and that BS must stop!
- October 30, 2007 2:44 PM
- Yost said...
Great idea. What is PSU pres address? Might want to get a campaign going.
- October 30, 2007 2:48 PM
- dtw2phx said...
Waste of good beer? Hell...waste of a good CAN is more like it! That's 10-cents in MI, baby!!!!
- October 30, 2007 3:00 PM
- WingRG said...
call me a Russian alcoholic, but any cold beer is good beer. If they didn't want to drink it, they wouldn't have bought it.
- October 30, 2007 3:13 PM
- surrounded in columbus said...
help me out w/ a question-
yesterday, you posted the link to the abused bed sheet story. the tosu trolls climbed out of the wood work to make "agruments" (don't call them "excuses", someone might get touchy) about the event, and THEN went gonzo at the suggestion they might want to talk about it to someone who gives a damn (like maybe psu fans?).
so, today you post this you tube link, w/ this gawdawful video, and you know, even tosu fans don't deserve to be treated like that (well most of them at least).
and my question is, where are all the psu commenters?? shouldn't there be like a half dozen or so psu fans on here making "arguments" (or can i say that psu fans just make "excuses"?) about how this is ok? happens everywhere else? had this happen to them when they went to tosu, so it's deserved? this happens more often and worse @ michigan???
anyway, just wondering if you were blocking there posts? or if psu fans just weren't in the habit of trying to defend undefendable behavior.
- October 30, 2007 3:27 PM
- WingRG said...
you answered your own question: some behavior is undefendable. If you're somehow trying to equate the two stories i feel sorry for you. You, yourself posted something on the other thread you mentioned (defaced bed sheet) that said you don't find that to be a big deal. So, explain to me again what this story has to do with the other, except for you're finding a way to take an unnecessary stab at OSU?
- October 30, 2007 3:34 PM
- surrounded in columbus said...
a) someone at psu thought this was defensible enough to put on you tube.
b) there is no such thing as an "unnecessary" stab @ tosu...
"From hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee. Ye damned whale"
whale, tosu fan.. what's the dif?
- October 30, 2007 3:40 PM
- Oh Yeah said...
I think your posts are going over the head of one SIC. Let him have his superiority trip on the blog. We'll have ours on the field.
- October 30, 2007 3:41 PM
- surrounded in columbus said...
"Son? i said son? you all, i said you all gotta stand up a little taller, boy. them fast ones go right over your heads."
Foghorn Leghorn
circa 1960's
- October 30, 2007 3:44 PM
- surrounded in columbus said...
in all seriousness, it's no coincidence that they're throwing beer cans.
3/4ths or more of the bad behavior you encounter at road games is alcohol induced. whatever the temperment of the home crowd sober, large volumes of alcohol makes things much worse.
i've been to games @ tosu, va tech, wvu, marshall, IU, Purdue, MSU, BG, Toledo, ND, BC, Wisco, NU, and Michigan, and seen bad behavior of some sort in each place. while each locale had its own good & bad points, the amount of drinking allowed in proximity to the the game venue directly impacted the amount and depth of the violence and rude behavior.
in the late '80's, the crowd @ michigan could have some pretty rude elements (myself included). we used to carry kegs into the stadium (ushers never asked why it took 4 people to carry a couple of coats). people drank openly before, during, and after the game. and sometimes it was ugly.
starting in the very early '90's, the U began cracking down on drinking in the stadium. over time, the crowd has sobered up to the point that it's odd when you see someone pouring something into their coffee or apple cider (Big Ten liquor on Packard has, coincidentally, retooled itself from a carry out to high end wine shop- i say the loss of pint schnapps sales on game day is the cause).
w/ out any sizable bars or public watering holes near the stadium, the crowd behavior in A2 has improved dramatically over the last decade (maybe improved too much, but that's a separate thread). it's a direct result of the alcohol policy.
the only way incidents like this one at psu (or anywhere else) are going to stop is when the locals crack down on the drinking. especially large parties or mobs drinking together.
i know that sounds prudish, and i like a good bloody mary in the a.m. more than most, but large, drunken parties can't go unchecked or you end up w/ this, or worse.
- October 30, 2007 4:08 PM
- TitleIX said...
beers or barbs....stop the throwing. JEEZ.
Jobu--you made the point I was absolutely going to make as well. I really commend the tOSU guys for walking away proudly and not fighting. Personally, I would have punched someone and then kicked his sack for good measure.
THIS is why there are those stoopid ads about RESPECTING the game and RESPECTING the fans.
And, from a practical standpoint===why the hell wouldn't you welcome a brother or sister fraternity/sorority member???? shit, it at a minimum gives you some place to crash next year!?
dumb fucks.
This post needs to go viral and those morons should be charged.
See, maybe Stevenson was right? it starts with a little yelling and key wagging and then next thing ya know......
- October 30, 2007 4:13 PM
- Jack Cardinal said...
I think Will Leitch is stalking you guys...
- October 30, 2007 4:23 PM
- Matt said...
he video has been taken down...jsut as i was writing a latter to the prez of PSU...
im a buckeye fan and have never treated any visiting team like this...does it happen at OSU i would argue not as bad but bad things do happen..
it needs to stop, everywhere.
- October 30, 2007 4:31 PM
- Yes, I'll Have Another said...
So, is the Penn State president also known as the Great and Powerful Oz, because as of 4:31 p.m. that video has been yanked off of You Tube.
Somebody pulled it down. Maybe it wasn't the president, maybe it was the douche from Pittsburgh.
Not that he had to.
- October 30, 2007 4:33 PM
- KDM said...
This is pretty standard in PSU. Last year, I had more stuff thrown at me than I can remember. One d-bag even ran toward me to try and puke on me. Fortunately, he fell short and missed.
- October 30, 2007 4:39 PM
- Runngunn29 said...
SIC, unfortunately I think we'd lose 8PM games rather than alocohol in the lots and such. Thats a disappointment because night games are great. I dont get the physical mistreatment deal. Plenty of OSU and PSU fans were jawing back and forth during tailgates and both sides were having fun and loving it, this type of action displayed isnt necessary.
To take from another poster from PSU who sat with an OSU buddy, "I went through Gulf War with my friend, you think I give a shit that he roots for a different team?" Believe me, no one will defend what happened. Theres plenty of older (and some young) Lion fans who chomp at the bit to call people out about their stupid fan behavior
- October 30, 2007 4:39 PM
- Unknown said...
That's the exact same treatment a lot of Nebraska fans got in "Happy Valley" in 2002. PSU apologized and did, apparently, absolutely nothing. And that's what they'll do this time too. They've been classless for decades...
- October 30, 2007 4:55 PM
- Unknown said...
Classless for decades? When were you at PSU 2 or 3 decades ago and saw anything like this? You're crazy.
And to say PSU is classless from one video is insane. We are all talking about the minority of fans here, not the majority. Let's not lose sight of that.
- October 30, 2007 5:07 PM
- Unknown said...
After just a few hours, an assitant to the President at Penn State actually wrote back to me and said the campus police are looking into indentifying the people involved. Hopefully they really are moving to act on this and flooding them with e-mails might be just a distraction for them.
I'm going to keep an eye on their student newspaper The Daily Collegian (that almost sounds like a joke name) to see what develops.
- October 30, 2007 5:17 PM
- Unknown said...
Oh, I'm glad I made a copy of the video (thank you FireFox) since it has been taken down.
- October 30, 2007 5:21 PM
- LVbuckeye said...
to those referencing the defacement of the stupid Paternoville sheet, 1) that IN NO WAY justifies this kid of behavior, and
2) the "Border War" tag on that graffiti should clue anyone with half a brain that this was a PENN STATE prank designed to fire up the fans. Sue Paterno set the precedent for this type of bush league, second tier behavior way back in 1966 when she dumped orange paint on the Nittany Lion in order to fire up the students for the Homecoming Game against Syracuse.
as M fans, i would hope you would be cognizant of the fact that Ohio State only has a border war with ONE state: Michigan.
good luck in the next two games, Blue. we'll see you on November 17 with the Big Ten Title on the line...
- October 30, 2007 5:28 PM
- Justin Casavant said...
I'm a Pitt fan and HATE Penn State, but you have to be fucking stupid and moronic to believe that one out-of-hand tailgate party is representative of an entire school.
- October 30, 2007 5:30 PM
- Will said...
As a PSU alumni, this was hard to watch. Not only has our team disappointed us, but our students now have as well. This story was on almost every meaningful sports blog and will forever tarnish the reputation of all of us.
- October 30, 2007 5:41 PM
- Dave said...
As an alum of Penn State, this is horrifying but given that it was a fraternity of the PiKA variety, that softens the blow.
Personally, I've never seen this kind of behavior anywhere at any tailgate I've been to.
The rule is you verbally harass somebody, then give them a beer.
I love to hang with the opposite team and play PSU vs. Opponent Flip Cup and Beer Pong.
This is all kinds of wrong and I hope the State College police find these douchebags.
Whatever happened to listening to the words of my Alma Mater:
"May no act of ours bring shame"
I suppose they never read those.
- October 30, 2007 5:57 PM
- beast in 'bama said...
They might have killed me, but I would have taken at least one of them with me.
If you're ever confronted with this, loudly ask anyone with you the following question: Got bail money? See if they don't back down. Worked for me before.
You have to meant it, though.
- October 30, 2007 6:05 PM
- sandgk said...
Seems the original video has been taken down.
This may remain a working URL for a while.
BTW, agree with everything you said in the blog piece.
It isn't that long ago that a game day in Happy Valley was just that, win or lose.
With luck maybe they can back to that.
- October 30, 2007 6:22 PM
- stephanie said...
The Penn State crowd took all the fun out of the game for my roommate. She got sick of being insulted after a couple of hours. It wasn't just a few select idiots - it was most of the people sitting around my roommate and the other Ohio State students she was with.
I know we have asshole fans here at Ohio State too but the Sportsmanship Council really seems to have made some progress. The only problem is that when my friends and I wish people in opposing jerseys good luck, they always seem to think we're trying to be jerks.
- October 30, 2007 6:31 PM
- WingRG said...
you're a good man. I think although we root for different teams, we speak the same language.
- October 30, 2007 6:44 PM
- Merrick 561 said...
This may in a Twisted way demonstrate the Good (which we all like), The Bad (we can tolerate if need be), and The UGLY (That which Has NO PLACE)..
First the Good.. The OSU fans went into a hostile environment looking to "tune up" with the enemy (i.e. have a few drinks and talk football while putting rivalries aside) Also, The PSU fans defneding their team with "fuck Ohio chants"... maybe a little over the top but still relatively good. And the one OSU fan having the Balls to just walk away rather than run (despite the outcome he is a true fan of College football)
The Bad. Well I don't think the bad exists.. There wasn't too much in here that was over the top but within reason
The Ugly.. Basically anything not listed as good.
I want to take a moment to congratulate the PSU fans involved (even if you stood by and did nothing) on moving their team up a few notches on the Classiness peg. For The rest of the PSU fans who read this blog, I'd like to say I'm sorry a few ppl have helped give you a bad name.
P.S. as a Pennsylanian myself.. WTF is a Westerner (The Pitt guy) Doing there unless he is an Alum. Because if you're from PA you know the battle lines are clearly drawn, save the few Michigan and ND fans around here
- October 30, 2007 7:34 PM
- Stephen said...
I'm a very recent Penn State grad, and I was at the game and tailgating all day. I, by virtue of being a human being, obviously do not condone the behavior in this video.
But guys...seriously, the amount of knee-jerking going on here is ridiculous. Think critically please.
1. This is one video of approximately 5-10 douchebags doing appalling things. The guy holding the camera, the Fallout Boy wannabe from Pittsburgh and a few others should be punished. They acted like assholes, and even if there isn't enough to justify legal action, they should be taken in front of the PSU's Judicial Affairs.
But 5-10 complete douchebags do not represent a trend within the entire community or represent the average Penn State fan (especially The Pittsburgh Kid, who may not even be a student at PSU).
2. This was a frat party. I was in a frat myself, and I'll admit that this kind of ass-hattery goes on all the time. You put enough people who all have something to prove in one place with a bunch of Natty Light and people act terribly. Again, not condoning the action, but consider the context when you're judging things like this.
In the tailgating fields north of the stadium, there were plenty of Ohio State tents set up among the blue and white tents. When OSU fans walked by our tailgate, we'd boo them and yell things like "Buckeye Moms <3 Bukkake!" and "Tressel's daughter swallows...ask Herbstreit!" and "A Buckeye is a sackless nut", and...well, you get the point. Harmless irreverent and lewd insults. But that is to be expected between any two groups of fans with somewhat of a rivalry.
The only violence I saw was when a kid wearing an OSU jersey tried to walk right through the middle of a crowded meathead-type tailgate when there was clearly a lane to go around. Someone took his hat and threw it and a couple people pushed him and sent him on his way. He was baiting, though, and it was pretty mild.
What I'm saying, I guess, is that the majority of the taunting was verbal and remained playful. I talked to a few OSU fans after the game and they said they had a great time and didn't have a single run-in with any asshole fans. I'd be willing to bet a video of them being offered food and beer and having a respectful conversation with Penn State fans wouldn't get as much attention on YouTube. but would be far more representative.
Personally, I haven't been happy with the way some Penn State fans have comported themselves over the past few years, but I'd hate for someone to read these posts and draw irresponsible conclusions about Penn State and its fans. We've got some jerks, most definitely, but can any school really say that there aren't a handful of assholes running around with their colors on (BYU maybe?)...unlikely.
- October 30, 2007 7:40 PM
- Hemlock Philosopher said...
That was horrible. (Its still working on EDSBS and I just watched it after work). I went to PSU for the game last year and they were nothing but hospitable. But, I never ventured by a frat... Mentally noted.
Go to hell PSU Pikes.
- October 30, 2007 7:40 PM
- Merrick 561 said...
I see where you are coming from (as my post noted with apologies to those fans who followed in your footsteps)
However the "knee-jerking" to which you claim is this blogs is actually common response to reprehensible actions regardless of the fan base that perpetrates it (I believe I've seen yost rip fellow Michigan fans who perpetrate heinous acts like these.)
In conclusion I hope you keep up the "harmless insults" that make college football what it is, and can also pray that your fellow fans learn form you.
- October 30, 2007 8:01 PM
- whetstonebuck said...
The Pittsburgh pussy made a big mistake having his picture all over the internet.
- October 30, 2007 8:07 PM
- srudoff said...
5-10 fans doing this?
check out how many things were thrown at the guys from the very beginning - no way that was only 5-10 guys throwing stuff
- October 30, 2007 8:19 PM
- Stephen said...
I saw this video about two hours ago, and I'm seriously no less pissed than I was when I first saw it. I want to talk to all my friends still at PSU and find out who those punks are and exact a little "street justice" myself.
PS: I don't know what you're talking about with there being clearly drawn battle lines in PA between PSU and Pitt. There are a ton of PSU students and fans from western PA, myself included. When the camera man...err camera holder...said he was from Pittsburgh, I interpreted it to mean that he's not a PSU student and was probably just visiting for the weekend. So he was just a complete asshole in general, with no reason whatsoever (not even a terrible and misguided reason like the PSU students had) to do what he did.
- October 30, 2007 8:26 PM
Cannot access YouTube at work; the video has been removed from their site now.
- October 30, 2007 8:35 PM
- WingRG said...
if you really wanna see it, it's still up on "BlackShoeDiaries". I'll give those guys credit, they don't sugar coat it.
- October 30, 2007 8:48 PM
- Yost said...
Can you email me a copy of the letter your received from PSU Prez office and the copy of the video?
- October 30, 2007 8:53 PM
- Rachel said...
I am a current PSU student and it sickens me to hear about this shit that seems inevitable to happen. Every school has assholes like these and I really wonder when people will just grow up. I would like to say that yes there are a lot of dicks in this video who participated - that is in no way representative of the Penn State community that involves thousands of fans. The guys in this video just screw themselves over, give frat guys an even worse rep, and hurt the Penn State rep. I saw several verbal exchanges between osu and psu fans - but that's to be expected. I love Penn State and this shit embarrasses me. I really would just like to say that this is one of the extremes and not even close to a percent of true PSU fans are like this. But most of you should know that because it's the exact same situation at literally any school. When will it end?
- October 30, 2007 8:56 PM
- srudoff said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- October 30, 2007 8:58 PM
- srudoff said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- October 30, 2007 9:00 PM
- 616goblue said...
Yost, not able to comment as when I checked, the video is no longer available...
I can say that when I was in A2 for the UM vs PSU game, the Penn State faithful I talked to were complementary to their acceptance...just like you have pointed out several times...
this could be a case of a few "bad apples" ruining the batch....
will be "behind the Green and White wall" saturday in East Lansing, were I will expect (and encourage) playful banter, but will not tolerate (nor expect) anything vulgar...
- October 30, 2007 9:02 PM
- Yost said...
Can you post link to PSU pres letter? Thanks.
- October 30, 2007 9:03 PM
- srudoff said...
the video
and copy of president's letter
hope that helps
- October 30, 2007 9:04 PM
- Peter said...
Not to turn this into a trashing Penn State fans thread (a few don't represent the whole, yadda yadda, etc.)
But last year at the Michigan game a few people tried to tip over the porta-potties while MIchigan fans were in there, myself included. It wasn't as bad as it sounds because they were tipping it towards a fence, so it really couldn't have tipped over completely.
My wife got pissed and bitched at them, and they apologized. Right then, a nearby tailgate shouted out the "WE ARE!" cheer coincidentally, to which the perpetrators responded "sorry!"
It was dick yet funny at the same time.
- October 30, 2007 11:31 PM
- Simon Cocot said...
Meh, maybe it's just being realistic or just going to lots of sporting events but this crap happens, you can't blame all fans and you sure as hell can't hold a whole university responsible.
I am a Buckeye but I have seen the same stuff and even worse happen to Michigan fans here in Columbus, it sucks when you see it, but it happens. It doesn't represent all the fans, just a small portion of drunken dumbasses.
To the PSU fans who are disgusted by this, sorry, I think most people who are realistic understand that this isn't your fanbase as a whole. The the guys who did this, enjoy getting kicked out of school, and to the fans this happened to at tOSU, take it for what it's worth.
The end result isn't changed, Ohio State beat Penn State pretty badly.
- October 30, 2007 11:57 PM
- This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
- October 31, 2007 12:24 AM
- Kevin said...
I was an OSU fan at the game Saturday. I was pushed and yelled at directly in my ear on several occasions. Another time a kid came up to my friend and I acting like he had just discovered hiding criminals, pointing and screaming "FAGS! FAGS! FAGS! THESE GUYS ARE GAY!!!! HOLD EACH OTHERS' COCKS!" I laughed merrily.
- October 31, 2007 12:30 AM
- BlueRage said...
That is terrible behavior. There are too many things that could go horribly wrong there. Imagine a full can of beer hitting someone in the head with a decently flung throw. It could kill, literally. I guess if it's gonna happen, though, it couldn't happen to a better type of fans than tOSU fans.
- October 31, 2007 1:51 AM
- TitleIX said...
yeah Kevin....
and if they had been yelling the N word at you or calling you a kike it would have been just SOOO fucking funny.
- October 31, 2007 7:03 AM
- The Dur said...
What Would JoPa Do?
(Oh yeah, use his car)
- October 31, 2007 9:53 AM
- Unknown said...
please tell me the d-bag that was clearly on camera has been arrested for assault.
- October 31, 2007 12:38 PM
- tommertoffo said...
I am a Michigan fan who travels to most of our games on the road. I have seen this behavior everywhere, even in Ann Arbor. Without a doubt, from my experience, the fans at Penn State and Notre Dame are the best behaved. I was shocked by this video. I have seen worse in Ann Arbor, however. The worst in the Big Ten is Illinois.
Though I hope Penn State cracks down on these idiots, the fans at State College are generally wonderful, and I look forward to returning next October.
- October 31, 2007 3:12 PM
- Shaun said...
once a pike always a pike.
- October 31, 2007 7:30 PM
- Unknown said...
I am a Pike at Ohio State, and those were my brothers in the OSU jerseys. And because this was the Pike house at PSU, they expected to be treated as brothers by their fellow Pikes. We had no problem with UM Pikes staying at our place, and until last weekend, we would have had no problem with the PSU guys either. They definitely didn't display anything we stand for, which I guess is why they're a step away from having their charter revoked. I don't know why PSU fans get so charged up for this game, anyway. It's only a rivalry to them.
- October 31, 2007 10:33 PM
- Unknown said...
As a PSU alum all I can say is that I am disgusted. I currently reside in NC and watched the game(in anguish) on TV. I had no knowledge of this incident until a couple days ago and all I can say is I'm sorry. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior. Words can not make up for the lack of respect of our current student body. I know that this puts all of the PSU student body in the dog house and I hope that in time these actions can be forgiven. For the first time in my life I am ashamed to be associated with PSU. We pride ourselves on having class and respect for our fellow universities , but sadly that was thrown back in our face (full pun intended). Again I apologize and I hope that future students of PSU can bring honor back to dear ol' state.
- November 01, 2007 1:02 PM
- Unknown said...
First - I'm sorry it happened.
Second - the people you see in the video are Pitt students visiting trying to show off or something.. these weren't PSU students. I know because I was at the tailgate earlier that day and I lived in that house and I know zero people from the video. Unfortunately for us, it happened in our backyard.
Third - stop over reacting. This happens everywhere and yes, even at your school or university. There was just someone dumb enough here to video tape it.
Finally - Thankfully no one was hurt. All that happened in the end was they received a refreshing Naddy Light shower and went on their way. It was beer people, not hand grenades, clam down.
Oh, and did you know that these poor innocent Ohio State fans also trashed the Paternoville banner that was signed by the PSU team and to be auctioned off for charity? But who cares, they were soaked with beer.
- November 01, 2007 4:15 PM
- Yost said...
You should have stopped at "First."
And are we really to believe that the hundred or so folks in that video in front of that frat yelling and throwing beer were all Pitt fans who traveled to Happy Valley to abuse OSU fans? Nice try on that one.
PS Yeah, we did call OSU fans out for the sign. Like we call out any fan bs we hear about.
- November 01, 2007 4:52 PM
- hckyfan1 said...
What would have happened if the tOSU fans had a kid going to the game with them?
- November 01, 2007 10:19 PM


text:
The posterior cruciate ligament (PCL) is connective tissue located within the knee. The PCL connects the thighbone to the shinbone. This connection keeps the shinbone from moving too far backward, stabilizing the knee. A PCL injury is damage to this tissue.
The PCL ligament can become strained or torn when a strong force is applied to it. This force can occur during sports or other high-stress activity.
Risk Factors
Factors that may increase your chance of injuring the PCL include:
- Sports injury
- Motor vehicle accident
- Fall on a bent knee
- Strong force to the leg immediately below the kneecap
- Knee dislocation
A PCL tear may cause:
- Pain and swelling in the knee
- Soreness in the area behind the knee
- Weakness or instability in the knee
- Difficulty walking
- Pain when moving the knee
You will be asked about your symptoms and medical history. A physical exam will be done.
Images may need to be taken of the internal structure of your knee. This can be done with:
Ligament sprains are graded according to their severity:
- Grade 1—mild ligament damage
- Grade 2—partial tearing of the ligament
- Grade 3—complete tearing of the ligament
Talk with your doctor about the best treatment plan for you. Recovery time ranges depending on the grade of your injury. Treatment steps may include:
Supportive Care
Your ligament will need time to heal. RICE is often the main part of treatment:
- Rest—Activities may need to be restricted at first. Normal activities will be gradually reintroduced.
- Ice—Ice therapy may help relieve swelling. Heat or cold may be recommended throughout recovery if they provide benefits.
- Compression—Used for a limited time, compression bandages can provide gentle pressure to help move fluids out of the area.
- Elevation—Keeping the area elevated can help fluids drain out or prevent fluids from building up.
Your doctor may recommend a knee brace to stabilize the knee, and crutches to keep extra weight off your leg.
Prescription or over-the-counter medications may be advised to reduce pain.
Physical Therapy
A physical therapist will assess your knee. An exercise program will be created to help recovery and to strengthen the muscles.
Surgery may be needed to fully restore function of the knee. The decision to have surgery should be made after discussion with your doctor about your athletic needs, age, and associated factors.
Some steps that may help decrease your chance of getting a PCL injury include:
- Protect your knees by doing regular strengthening exercises for your thighs.
- Maintain proper technique when exercising or playing sports.
Revision Information
- Reviewer: EBSCO Medical Review Board Teresa Briedwell, PT, DPT
- Review Date: 03/2018 -
- Update Date: 02/28/2014 -

subset: commoncrawl


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Lawrence approves deal for Rock Chalk rec center
Planned $25M project gets tax abatement
Lawrence city commissioners have approved agreements for a city-owned recreation center and tax abatements for a larger project that will include athletic facilities for the University of Kansas.
The commissioners Tuesday night approved a development agreement for a $25 million Rock Chalk recreation center. And they approved an ordinance to give a 100 percent property tax abatement for the next 10 years for the larger project, which includes privately owned athletic facilities for the university.
The commission approved the property tax abatement even after its key advisory board on economic development failed to recommend it earlier Tuesday.
The Lawrence Journal-World reports the larger Rock Chalk Park project will include track and field, soccer and softball stadiums for the university.


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New Designs in Active Daylighting
A version of this article appears in the January/February 2006 issue of Home Energy Magazine.
January 01, 2006
Since the sun is available when utilities experience peak demand, well-designed daylighting systems help to limit demand on the grid.
Daylighting offers many important benefits. First, there are a variety of psychological benefits associated with human needs for connections with the outdoors. We evolved mostly under tree canopies and on open plains, almost totally immersed in the natural environment. It is not surprising, then, that we have strong needs for continuous interaction with that environment. The second most important benefit is for interior illumination. Daylighting was necessary before inexpensive, smokeless electric lighting came along, so our architectural design traditions have provided us with extensive knowledge and many ancient strategies for introducing natural light into structures. Finally, using natural light to provide illumination saves energy by diminishing the use of electricity for electric lighting while lowering cooling loads. Since the sun is available when utilities experience peak demand,well-designed daylighting systems help to limit demand on the grid, thereby delaying the need for new power plants and associated infrastructure. Existing Technology It is difficult to beat a conventional window for the many benefits it provides. Proper design, of course, is critical in order to avoid problems of glare and overheating, or draftiness on ...
To read complete online articles, you need to sign up for an Online Subscription.
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The Home Energy Online articles are for personal use only and may not be printed for distribution. For permission to reprint, please send an e-mail to email@example.com.


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Receptive aphasia is a language disorder that involves difficulty understanding spoken or written language. This fact sheet focuses on alexic anomia. Alexic anomia happens when you lose your ability to understand written words. You can no longer read and name words. It is caused by the brain not functioning correctly. This is a serious condition that may change over time, depending on the cause.
Alexic anomia is caused by damage to the language areas of the brain, for example:
- Stroke , which is the most common cause
- Severe blow to the head
- Traumatic brain injury
- Brain tumor
- Brain infection
- Other brain conditions
Risk Factors
Alexic anomia is more common in older people. Other factors that may increase your chance of alexic anomia include:
- Increased age
- Being at risk for stroke or dementia
- Having a history of transient ischemic attacks (TIAs)
Symptoms include:
- Inability to read with understanding
- Ability to write, but not read what you have written
You will be asked about your symptoms and medical history. A physical exam will be done. A neurological examination and tests may also be done to check brain function.
Imaging tests are used to evaluate the brain and other structures. These may include:
You may be referred to a neurologist. This is a doctor who specializes in diseases of the nervous system.
Talk with your doctor about the best plan for you. Treatment options include the following:
- Speech-language therapy—to help you use your ability to communicate, regain lost abilities, learn to make up for language problems, and learn other methods to communicate
- Counseling —to help you cope with your condition and help your family learn how to communicate with you
- Individualized rehabilitation program—to focus on what caused your condition
Since stroke is a common cause of aphasia, follow these guidelines to help prevent stroke:
- Exercise regularly.
- Eat plenty of fruits and vegetables .
- Limit salt and fat in your diet.
- If you smoke, talk to your doctor about how to successfully quit .
- If you drink, do so in moderation. Moderation is 2 or less drinks per day for men and 1 or less drinks per day for women.
- Maintain a healthy weight .
- Control your blood pressure .
- Ask your doctor if you should take low-dose aspirin.
- Properly treat and control chronic conditions, such as diabetes .
If you have signs of a stroke, call for emergency medical services right away.
Revision Information
- Reviewer: EBSCO Medical Review Board Rimas Lukas, MD
- Review Date: 03/2018 -
- Update Date: 04/30/2015 -


text:
Principal Proposed Natural Treatments
Peyronie's disease is a condition in which a plaque (a thickened, hardened piece of tissue) forms on one side of the penis. If the plaque becomes large enough, it reduces flexibility of the penis. During erection, the less-flexible part of the penis expands to a lesser extent, causing the penis to bend. Pain may occur as well. Severe curvature of the penis can make intercourse difficult or even impossible.
The cause of Peyronie's disease is unknown, but it may involve injury to the penis that causes local bleeding, which in turn leads to the formation of fibrous tissue. However, the majority of cases occur without any obvious preceding injury.
People with Peyronie's disease may have a generalized tendency to form fibrous tissue, as shown by a higher-than-average incidence of Dupuytren's contracture (a condition in which fibrous tissue develops in the hands among men with Peyronie's). The condition also appears to be partially heritable.
Treatment of Peyronie's disease consists first and foremost of watchful waiting. In many cases, the disease never becomes severe enough to cause serious difficulty. Pain on erection generally decreases with time, and in some cases the extent of curvature also decreases.
When the condition is too severe to ignore, there are a variety of methods that may be tried, including injection of various drugs into the fibrous plaque, use of radiation therapy, and surgery. Of all these, only surgery is widely accepted as effective. However, because it can cause complications, such as shortening of the penis, it is usually reserved for serious cases.
Principal Proposed Natural Treatments
L-carnitine is an amino acid the body uses to turn fat into energy. It is not usually considered a nutrient because the body can manufacture all it needs. Two forms of L-carnitine—acetyl-L-carnitine and propionyl-L-carnitine—have been tried as treatments for Peyronie's disease.
A 3-month, double-blind study compared the effectiveness of acetyl-L-carnitine to the drug tamoxifen in 48 men with Peyronie's disease. 1 Acetyl-L-carnitine (at a dose of 1 g daily) reduced penile curvature, while tamoxifen did not. In addition, the supplement reduced pain and slowed disease progression to a greater extent than tamoxifen.
Another study evaluated the potential benefits of combination therapy with propionyl-L-carnitine and an injected medication (verapamil). 2 In this trial, 60 people with severe Peyronie's disease were given verapamil injections plus 3 months of treatment with either propionyl-L-carnitine (2 g per day) or tamoxifen. Use of propionyl-L-carnitine plus verapamil significantly reduced penile curvature, plaque size, and the need for surgery, while tamoxifen plus verapamil had little effect.
These studies remain preliminary, but their results are definitely encouraging. For more information, see the full Acetyl-L-Carnitine article.
Paraminobenzoic Acid
Para-aminobenzoic acid (PABA) has been suggested for a variety of diseases in which abnormal fibrous tissue is involved, including Peyronie's disease. 3-5 However, there has only been one reported double-blind study. (For more information on why such studies are essential, see Why Does This Database Rely on Double-blind Studies? ) This trial enrolled 103 men with Peyronie's disease and followed them for 1 year. 6 The results showed that use of PABA at a dose of 3g 4 times daily significantly slowed the progression of Peyronie's disease; it did not, however, reduce pre-existing plaque.
For more information, including dosage and safety issues, see the full PABA article.
Other Proposed Natural Treatments
Vitamin E has also been advocated for the treatment of Peyronie's disease, as well as for the related condition Dupuytren's contracture , but there is as yet no meaningful evidence that it is effective.
The herb gotu kola is used to treat various conditions in which fibrous scar tissue causes problems, and for that reason it has been advocated for Peyronie's disease. However, again there is no meaningful evidence that it is effective.
Herbs and Supplements to Use Only With Caution
Various herbs and supplements may interact adversely with drugs used to treat Peyronie's disease. For more information on this potential risk, see the individual drug articles in the Drug Interactions section of this database.
Revision Information
- Reviewer: EBSCO CAM Review Board
- Review Date: 12/2015 -
- Update Date: 12/15/2015 -


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In the early stages of the disease, most cases of open-angle glaucoma do not have any noticeable signs or symptoms. Vision stays normal and there is no pain. But, even without symptoms, irreversible damage can be happening to your optic nerve. If glaucoma remains untreated for a long period of time, you may begin to notice some symptoms. Some cases of angle-closure glaucoma, especially during an acute attack, are associated with symptoms, which are discussed below.
The main symptom of glaucoma is loss of peripheral vision. This means that you can see things clearly in front of you, but objects to the side and out of the corner of your eye may be missed. As the disease progresses, it may seem as though you are looking through a tunnel. Over time, the remaining forward vision may decrease and the field of vision narrows until blindness results.
Depending on the type of glaucoma you have, you may experience some of the following symptoms:
- Blind spots
- Blurred vision
- Halos around lights
- Vague eye aching or stinging
- Inability to adjust the eye to darkened rooms
- Difficulty focusing on close work
- Loss of side peripheral vision
- Tunnel vision
- Fluctuating vision
More serious symptoms associated with acute angle-closure glaucoma (a medical emergency) that require immediate medical attention include, but are not limited to:
- Severe eye pain
- Facial pain
- Blurred or cloudy vision
- Redness and swelling of the eye
- Pupil not reacting to light
- Swollen eyelids
- Tearing
- Nausea or vomiting
Revision Information
- Reviewer: EBSCO Medical Review Board Daniel A. Ostrovsky, MD
- Review Date: 03/2018 -
- Update Date: 03/15/2015 -


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Tuesday, November 20, 2007
The Groening of Weight Loss Surgery
The parents of Matt Groening, creator of the Simpsons, were friends of my parents. It might interest his fans to know, if they don't already, that his parents' names are Homer and Marge. Several years ago, my mom got Marge Groening to finagle a favor from Matt: he sent our son, on his birthday, several items of wittily signed simpsonalia, along with a couple of original drawings of Bart offering greetings, relating, as I recall, to a cow. This does not keep me from criticizing Mr. Groening on surgical matters.
On the most recent Simpsons episode, which I watched with my usual devotion, Homer underwent weight-loss surgery. During the pre-operative meeting with the surgeon he was told about "gastric bypass surgery," but the explanation, complete with diagram, was of placing a band around the stomach. There's a lot of misunderstanding out there.
Before I became a blogger, I spent some time voluntarily answering medical questions on a couple of online medical fora. Weight loss surgery, I discovered, is a little like religion. Criticize gastric bypass in favor of lap-band, and expect serious flaming. When I predicted that, as the word got out, lap-band would replace gastric bypass as the procedure of choice, personal epithets were flung far, fast, and furious, as if I'd said Osama bin Laden ought to be president. The fact is that when most people think of bariatric surgery, gastric bypass is what comes to mind; and to date, it's what most have had (although the teeter is tottering). Good branding. Like MP3 player = iPod. But iPods don't kill 1.5% - 3% of their owners within days of purchase.
Disclosure: to the extent that I'm still a surgeon, it's only as a participant in the laparoscopic placement of lap-bands. Further disclosure: they pay me by the hour. Got no dog in the fight. Statement: if I were going to have a weight loss operation (and, depending on where I am on the sine-wave of my devotion to cycling and other factors, it's not inconceivable) there's no doubt I'd have the lap band. Why? Cheaper, safer, faster, doable as an outpatient procedure, quicker recovery, equal weight loss in the long run. More disclosure: not even all bariatric surgeons would agree with what I just said -- mainly the last phrase.
It's a strange world. Until pretty recently, those insurers who covered bariatric surgery (not many, for a long time) only paid for bypass, despite significantly higher initial cost and much more frequent (and very dangerous -- not to mention expensive) complications. In part, they claimed it was because (despite much world-wide experience with tens of thousands of patients) they considered the band "experimental." Cynical me: I think it's really because they figured that in covering only the more expensive and more dangerous operation, fewer people would choose to have it. Short sighted? Surprised?
Ain't no free (small) lunch. The main downside of lap band, as I see it, is that it affords less of having and eating your cake. Bypass works in significant measure by causing malabsorption of food. Stuff passes through. Although that often leads to diarrhea and nutritional problems for which the typical patient must take lots of supplements (as opposed to the typical band patient who needs none), some people are attracted to it because they may not be as restricted on intake. With a band, you can't eat as much, and you may need to give up certain things, like bread. On the other hand, a high percentage of people with a band in place find their appetite is wiped away like spilled crumbs in a white tablecloth restaurant. And there's this: the best results are with programs that are comprehensive and provide ongoing support. Some surgeons, of course, don't like that; which, I think, accounts for the disagreement amongst them. Cut and run, is what they prefer, and that's what they can more easily do with bypass patients. The people with whom I work set a very high standard of continuous followup.
Adjustability is another attraction of the band. There's a small "port" placed under the skin into which fluid can be injected, which fills a balloon on the inside of the ring. You can make it tighter or looser, depending on a patient's needs. Women who'd had trouble conceiving a baby while fat may get pregnant when thin, and need a little more room to eat for two. No problem.
Since there's none of the cutting of bowel and stomach that happens with bypass, there's practically no incidence of leakage or serious immediate surgical problems. Mortality rate is much lower (for the group with which I work, it's one (last I heard) in about three thousand.) The most irksome problem with the band is an incidence of "slip," wherein too much stomach ends up above the band, often requiring reöperation to reposition it. I think it's generally a misnomer, because in most cases it's not that the band has slipped, but that the originally small portion of stomach above the band has become stretched and dilated; which nearly always happens in people who go off the reservation, meaning people who force in too much food and end up vomiting a lot. Technical issues that might also be a factor are slowly being investigated and placement techniques have changed, which has lowered the incidence. That, of course, says that not all the problems are related to patient coöperation. (Love that ¨ thing, since I discovered how to do it recently.)
So. If you're like me and you get most of what you know about the world from watching the Simpsons, be of good cheer. As long as there are people around to correct the (very rare) occasional divergence from reality, you can keep watching with confidence. The internet is a wonderful thing.
52 comments:
- rlbates said...
I like this post, Dr Sid. I also want to direct anyone interested to Chris Oliver Blogspot: Laparoscopic Adjustable Gastric Band Story - Surgery February 2007
He is an orthopedic surgeon who is blogging about his weight loss surgery/story.
- Sid Schwab said...
Thanks, Ramona. I went over there and checked it out. Coincidentally, in one of his posts he mentioned a book, sort of the bible for lap band patients, which was written by a woman with whom I now work.
- Eric, AKA The Pragmatic Caregiver said...
Funny, as I watched this episode, I thought of you; the disconnect between the words and pictures was . . . jarring.
I did, however, enjoy the speed of the results and the ease with which Homer moved the excess skinrolls around to suit.
Eric, Just Folding Up A Sweaty Old Blanket
- Lynn Price said...
I always wondered why I never heard anything about the lap band anymore. Seemed like it was a smarter way to go - less invasive, cheaper, offered fewer side effects, and yielded the same results. Thanks for this post, Sid. Now pass the candy.
- Bongi said...
love the simpsons.
i sincerely hope you are not going to stop blogging???
- make mine trauma said...
..his parents' names are Homer and Marge.
Also loved the way Homer handled the loose skin.
Seems the bariatric group in my area have pretty much converted to all lap bandings. Occasionally a patient will still insist on the gastric bypass.
Lap band procedure also seems to take about 1/2 the time it takes to do a bypass.
- Sid Schwab said...
MMT: get out? check it out. (also note the names of his sisters; and his sons.)
He was born in Portland, as was I. His mom and mine were in the same book group. Actually still are, although mine doesn't get there much any more.
- SeaSpray said...
Good post! I know quite a few people that had the Bi-pass surgery and all are glad they had it. One had months of trouble. And she recently had to do something again because she has started to gain but I don't know the details. Diabetes, htn and aching joints reversed or greatly improved. One man in his 40s died s/p that surgery because of a wound infection that didn't clear up. Again don't know details.
Here's the thing and this is just my opinion and I would NEVER say it to anyone nor indicate it. I am very positive around them and applaud their successes. BUT...I think they age and look haggard. I think it must be because the weight comes off so fast. That being said morbid obesity with co-morbidities can kill you and sets up for a potentially dismal future. There's probably exceptions but it's inviting poor health.
Most recently, someone from church had it done in May. She had been opposed to it a couple of years ago. Her sister was one of the first ones to have it done back in the 70's and she had to travel out of state to get it done. She had a miserable time of it and they didn't have the support systems/follow-up they have in place now. She is happy and supportive of her sister but would never do it again. She did regain the weight. The woman I know lost 80lbs between May and October and is very happy about it and said she would do it again. I only know of one woman personally who got the rubber band procedure but I don't know the outcome because I had stopped working at the hospital in which she worked as a nurse.
Why don't more people opt for the rubber band procedure? or is that what you are saying that it may not be covered by insurance? It's amazing what surgeons can do today.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family Sid. :)
- Sid Schwab said...
seaspray: your observation is correct, and it's an aspect of the malabsorption that results from bypass, as opposed to lap-band: they can develop forms of malnutrition that leads to protein-wasting, etc. Others have noticed as well that people who've lost lots of weight look "worse" after bypass than after band.
- SeaSpray said...
Right there-that's it Sid! Some people don't pay attention to the health consequences but if the message got out about their post-op appearance re- bypass vs bands...I really think it would be the draw.
- Jeffrey Parks MD FACS said...
The problem with the lap band is the follow up. The gastric pouch will dilate over time, requiring repeated adjustments of the band. You have to follow these people for a lifetime. And not to be crude but Ive found that bariatric patients can be a little "difficult" to say the least. So it requires many years of patience from the surgeon. A patient with a roux-en-Y can disappear from your office forever and still continue to lose weight over their lifetime. Of course, there's that little problem of the risk of anastomotic leak and horrible death that you have to deal with.
My favorite Simpsons: When Homer became the Springfield Beer Baron. "Alcohol; the cause and solution to all of life's problems..."
- Sid Schwab said...
I'd change the word "will" to "might." I know many "bandees" who've had them for many many years with zero problems. I agree about the followup, which is in my post. I've also been involved in "band over bypass" patients, ie ones we banded after their bypass operation failed. None of the options is perfect, and ought to be a last resort for those in whom all other serious attempts haven't succeeded.
- Bongi said...
nothing to do with the whole argument (but i sway slightly in the gastric bypass direction myself) but buckeye's quote of homer made me think of another quote.
beer is not the answer. it is the question. the answer is yes.
- Dr. Rob Oliver Jr. said...
Bands clearly do not have the track record of GBP with predictable and long-term results. I think they're great, but they're really better suited to subsets of patients who're needing 60-80 lb weight loss. Patients requiring 125-200 lbs really need the more dramatic surgery (GBP) to realize sustained benefits, and I believe that experience is pretty consistant in the literature.
Also agree with buckeye surgeon, many surgical weight loss patients do not have the compliance neccessary to do as well with bands nor do most surgeons have the infrastructure to follow these people out 15-20 years.
I'm still kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop with the lap-band. Surigcal history of such "choker collar" devices around the stomach was kind of ugly. Are we going to see a wave of pressure ulcers of the stomach from these at 15-20 years out?
- Sid Schwab said...
Rob: the group I work with takes on all comers and has many with weightloss of 150 pounds and more. The band has been around long enough, and modified along with implantation techniques that I think erosion has been well addressed. And in those rare cases in which it happens, the result is simply that weight gain occurs, as opposed to septic complications. Then the band gets removed. I absolutely agree about followup, which I mentioned. I still think, comparing the short term death and complications of bypass and the long term issues with band, when followed properly, the data come down on the side of band. But, as I said, I have no dog in the fight...
I'd be mildly interested to know what group you've worked with, as I'm only familiar with people on the east coast.
I know some well-known surgeons who have been successful with the band. I also know a vast majority of patients who use it as an excuse to simply eat badly in small portions, maintain their 6L of Pepsi a day and then act surprised when the weight doesn't come off. I'm also fairly disturbed by how many reputable surgeons use the vomit-point as their cutoff for successful band adjustment (incidentally, do your people do adjustments in office or in the radiology suite?). I've thus noticed an increasing number of people who have esophagi that would horrify you in their diameter in barium swallow. Finally, none of them seem to understand that when the band comes off, the weight will come back if they return to their old eating habits.
I do think that the fewer complications (nutritional and surgical), ease of placement, and suitability for BMI 35-40, adolescents and high-risk cases is good, but I'd like to second Buckeye on the long-term data. The Italian and other European data works with a different population in terms of eating and exercise and I'd love to see US follow-up data in about ten years, now that we've mostly formalized technique, to see if it really was generalizable.
I think we'd all agree that many weight loss patients are don't understand the long-term ramifications of a major surgery, especially one like RNYGB that depends on malnutrition to cause an effect. My personal opinion is that we ought to make stringent psych evaluations (administered by an evaluator unfamiliar with both the surgeon and the patient) a primary criteria for these surgeries. (Yes, I do know that a version of this is required.) The rate of surgeries would go down, but I imagine the success rate would skyrocket.
I've noticed lots more patients are asking for the band thanks to those DTC ads the manufacturer is putting out.
PS-- Incidentally, I think the driving force for the surgery in the future will be Type 2 diabetes resolution/improvement. Most data I've seen from the band suggest the effect is much less dramatic for it compared to the sleeve or GB.
- Sid Schwab said...
K: Far as I know, the only adjustments they do under flouro are those in which the port is difficult to access (they have a unit in their office, as opposed to using a radiology suite.) Every patient gets a psych eval, an agrees to come to a support group post op. They treat, and get excellent results with, people of BMI in the thirties to many over sixty. Practically everyone who works there is a "bandee," including the RNs who do most of the adjustments. I hesitate to name the group here, only because I don't want to be accused of shilling for them. You could email me...
Sid: Whoops, forgot I'd left this comment. The group I was referring to had overall results that probably underperform compared to other sites. Extenuating circumstances that had nothing to do with surgical technique likely skewed the results. Thus it's probably also skewed my perception of it as an efficacious operation.
Interesting that you have a mandatory post-op support group. I've heard more about that recently, and bet it probably would improve follow-up rates and sticking to diets.
- Sue Joan said...
Dr Sid, thank you for this excellent article... I love your honesty and excellent summation of differences between bypass and band. Will be very helpful for pre ops. We need more physicians/surgeons like yourself... consider cloning yourself...
- JohnMc said...
Dr. Sid, LOTS of questions. I have recently been reading the WLS usergroup posts and there does not seem to be much agreement, about what works best. I have decided to try and have WLS and initially I had decided on a bypass, but after reading this post, I am thinking perhaps the band is better. I am not a vain person, but I don't want to age prematurely and be burdened w/ new problems a few years later. In my web browsing on the subject, I found the mini Gastro Bypass (MGB) and it appears safer, but has a shorter history. There seem to be less cutting and the bypassing of 4-6 ft of small intestine sounded good. The main reasons I DID not like the band was the need for continued adjustment, erosion, more puking, and what seemed to be less weight loss (or is it only slower). It seems that alot of the banders lost only about 100 lbs in a year and leveled off. This will not work for me. I am 400 lbs, I would still be to big w/ only a 100 lb loss. I'm 6' 3", 400 lbs, w/ a BMI of 50. Would the band get me to 200 lbs, but just take longer? I am also concerned about loose skin after the wt loss, would this be less of an issue if the loss were slower, w/ a band. I want to get to 200 lbs w/in 2-3 years. I am 49 yrs old and am currently reasonably healthy (all things concidered), BP is ok, boarderlI am concerned about my health down the road, considering my family history (strokes, heart-attacks, colon & prostate cancers, Type
ii diabeties, depression, HBP, etc.) I'm a boarder-line diabetic, high colesterol (controled w/ a low dose of a statin), joints ok, have sleep apnea (but I snored at 225 lbs). Do I stand a better chance of few conplications for an RNY of MGB? My main health problem is depression; I think it causes my weight and my weight gain causes the depression. What do u think of the MGB? And why are so few surgeons doing them?
- Sid Schwab said...
JohnMc: I don't know about the MGB. How much weight a person loses with any procedure has in part to do with commitment and followup. I've expressed an opinion about the choices, and I acknowledge that not everyone agrees -- by a long shot. And I work with a group that, in my opinion, provides the best care possible, which I'd guess not all do. I don't want to be in the position, other than expressing a general opinion, of recommending a specific procedure to a specific person, especially a person I don't actually know. It sounds like you have good reasons and strong commitment and therefore I'd guess you'd do well no matter what you choose.
- Sue Joan said...
re: John Mc - the MGB (for "mini gastric bypass") is another variation of the gastric bypass based on the Billroth II. Instead of the small bowel being cut in one place it is pulled up and anastomosed to the pouch (which is, last I talked to the inventor) created out of the cardia or ring of muscles at the top of the stomach. This is a variation of the older loop gastric bypass which leaves less stomach in tact than the Mason loop gastric bypass. The reason many surgeons do not do them may be that some patients do not show the quick weight loss results of the RNY gastric bypass and also there is a 25 percent chance of bile reflux in MGB patients which in an unspecified number of patients can cause a type of gastritis, reflux into the lungs etc. Because there is one less cut than in the RNY, it might be a tad safer but still does, according to what the ASBS says about ANY procedure which bypasses small bowel, run the risks of several complications and vitamin deficiencies seen in the older intestinal bypass. (2) according to several studies, the expected NET weight loss on the adjustable lap band is IDENTICAL to the gastric bypass at the 3 year post op point. i.e. in most patients, 50-60 percent of the excess weight. According to the Hebrew U study in 1993, only 7 percent of gastric bypass patients keep off all their weight and 25-30 percent of bypass patients gain it all back. However, there is a possibility that with the adjustable lap band, since the weight loss is slower, that there is much more BODYFAT loss than with the bypass wherein the patient is fasting and must cannibalize muscle and bone mass to survive during the fasting period. And with a band patient who works the tool, weight loss can continue long after the first year. There are no vitamin deficiencies with the lap band. Finally the adjusting is an advantage with the lap band - revisions are done in the doctor's office and not on the operating table as is necessary with the bypass. (any bypass) What is a "normal weight" for anyone is up for grabs. If you are healthy at 49, you may not have to even lose much weight at all. Studies show that with a loss of 10-20 percent of bodyweight, risks greatly diminish. The HAES study of USC (clinical study) also suggested that people focused on health rather than weight seem to get healthier and stay with the program better.
- Denise Anne Cole said...
Happy New Year, Dr. Schwab! I have three words for you though: I LOVE YOUR BOOK!!!
In this seemingly humorless world of medicine, you have managed to provide a stressed-out reader like me several reasons to smile and laugh about the idiosyncracies we are faced with everyday.
Thanks for writing this really inspiring memoir.
- Sid Schwab said...
Dear Coles: Thanks!! It makes me feel great to hear that. Tell your friends.
PS: that was four words.
- Denise Anne Cole said...
Oops. I can't believe I missed that. How embarrassing!! Anyway, here are four more words: YOUR BOOK IS FANTASTIC!
- Susan said...
Hi Dr. Schwab, I am considering the lab band surgery (the bypass scares me). I love to scuba dive, have you had any reports from divers who have had the surgery?
Thank you,
- Sid Schwab said...
Susan: I'm not aware of any issues. Conversely, there have been concerns about flying, when lower pressure could make the balloon on the band expand. But it turns out it's not a problem. Unless there were lots of air in it (and steps are taken to make sure there isn't), it's not a problem. I assume the opposite concern -- getting looser during diving -- would not be a problem even if it were to occur. But I don't think it would.
- Unknown said...
Dr. Schwab,
I started looking into weight loss surgery in July 07. I have visited with the nutritionist and behavioral medicine. My next step is the pre-op skills group. I feel the lapband is the right choice for me.
Trying to make a decision on which surgery is the right fit takes you into information overload. I've found that a lot of the support forums online have a lot of good information on personal experiences, but I've also found them to be dumping grounds for personal horror stories.
I'm 57 and I'm concerned about the long term affects of Roux Y. My PCP suggests that there is more robust data on the lap band.
Although I have a short list of comobities, I'm still in fairly decent health.
Where can I find more data on lap band for patients in my age group?
I'm concerned about port replacement, erosion, slippage. Is there a common thread that surround these complications?
- Sid Schwab said...
cafebird: the complications you mention are pretty much unrelated to each other. Port replacement, which is very simple, is also pretty uncommon. Once in a while the port will begin to leak, which has no danger associated with it -- it just means the band gets loose. It's quite rare, and simple to fix, since the port is right under your skin. Erosion is much rarer still; it was more common in the early days, but the band has been modified, as have the techniques for placing it. "Slippage" is the biggest issue. It occurs in around 1 - 3% of cases. It's a misnomer, largely. Actual movement of the band to an improper position is almost never the problem: it's a matter of some people forcing in too much food, and causing dilatation of the pouch above the band. Although it's a big deal if it happens, most surgeons are able to reposition it laparoscopically, without the need either to remove it or to resort to an open operation.
Obviously, no operation for weight-loss is a simple matter, and none is perfect. It's my opinion, however, as I said, that given the much lower risk of dangerous complications, the lower cost, and the fact that it can often be done as an out-patient (where I work, it's nearly always outpatient), the band comes up on top. Any of the operations ought to be considered a last resort, however.
- Unknown said...
Dr. Schwab,
Thank you for that information. It gives me some insight before I actually meet with the surgeon in March.
I'm hoping for all things positive.
- Sue Joan said...
Cafebird51: as for information on the lap band, try:
This is a bariatric surgeon who has done WLS for 25 years and now ONLY specializes in the lap band because he found in several studies, including his own, that the weight loss at the 3 year point was identical regardless of what procedure but the lap band has a fraction of the complications of the other procedures and complications seen with lap band are generally not serious.
- Unknown said...
Dr. Schwab,
Thanks for the link. I've been reading some of the discussion on Lapbandtalk.com and I just ordered Lap band Solutions: A Partner in Weight Loss. Someone gave me Lap-Band for Life by Ariel Ortiz Lagardere, which I haven't started yet.
I'm a little nervous, as you can probably tell, more so of the unknown. But, I'm anxious to have the surgery and having energy and stamina. Right now, I'm trying to quit smoking and quite frankly … it ain't pretty.
Thanks again, I'm really glad that I found your blog, and I appreciate any information. The surgery is expect March 08.
- Unknown said...
Apologies to you ... thank you for the information, I didn't realize that you had posted it.
Much appreciated.
- Sid Schwab said...
cafebird: I should have mentioned this book, which some consider the "bible" of lap band, and which is written by a woman with whom I work, and who has a band of her own...
I had RNY Gastric Bypass Surgery one year ago. I went from a size 20 to a size 2. There are no foods off-limits to me since my surgery and I eat a normal healthy diet, but smaller quantities.
Here is the link to my blog about my entire wls journey--
I didn't want the lapband because I don't believe the long-term results are as good and I did not want to have to go to the doctor to get "fills" for the rest of my life. I also didn't want a foreign object around my stomach and a port under my skin. There are no long-term studies on how long that "equipment" stays good inside your body--it may need replacing after 25 years--no one knows yet. My mom and a friend of mine had the lapband. Everyone has to decide what is best for them.
I paid for my weight loss surgery out-of-pocket and the whole thing cost $25,000 including the surgeon, hospital stay at a center of excellence and anesthesia. Best money EVER spent. People spend more than that on college, a car or travel. My recovery was great. I went to Dr. Robert Brolin in Princeton, NJ. He does the lapband also, but he will not decide for you--he wants you to research and decide for yourself...
I will be reading your blog regularly--I'm glad I found it!!
- Unknown said...
Dr. Sid,
I found a copy of the book on ebay. Thanks again.
- Sue Joan said...
The media are using diabetes (as they tell us, is caused by "obesity") to scare people into having weight loss surgery. Problem being that diabetes is caused by a gene and also if 33 percent of type II diabetics have never been fat, how will losing weight necessarily help? I personally KNOW SIX type II diabetics who are on the slim side and a couple, extremely slim and have never been fat and my FIL was slim all his life, never fat - got type II diabetes in his 40's and by his 60's had lost both his legs to the disease. Like anything there is a great deal of misunderstanding about diabetes. And to the new op gastric bypass patient, the early losses are spectacular but with most people, most of the weight lost in the first year after a gastric bypass is NOT bodyfat but muscle mass and bone mass. Less than 30 percent of what patients lose is fat. By contrast, with the lap band when the weight loss is slower, MOST of what they lose is fat. According to one study, 34 percent of gastric bypass patients regained all or most of the weight (Annals of Surgery. 244(5):734-740, November 2006.
Christou, Nicolas V. MD, PhD; Look, Didier MD; MacLean, Lloyd D. MD, PhD Abstract:
Objective: To complete a long-term (>10 years) follow-up of patients undergoing isolated roux-en-Y gastric bypass for severe obesity.)
- Sid Schwab said...
Sue W: there are some logical gaps there. It's true that many diabetics are not overweight, and obviously for them surgery would never be considered. Among those with type II diabetes who ARE significantly overweight, weight loss surgery has clearly been shown to reverse the glucose intolerance. In fact, for many the need for diabetes pills disappears even before all the weight is lost. So whereas what you say is true, it doesn't mean that surgery is "overhyped" for those with refractory obesity and type II diabetes.
Also, your comments about gastric bypass are among the many reasons why I'm strongly in favor of lap-band over bypass, as I've written elsewhere in this blog.
- Sue Joan said...
Seems what long term studies we have do not necessarily suggest that. In the Swedish Obesity study, among patients from all surgical procedures.... "At the two year point, 72 percent of the diabetics appeared to be recovered but at the 10 year point, only 36 percent of the diabetics were still "disease-free"." (SOURCE: New England Journal of Medicine: Volume 351:2683-2693 December 23, 2004 Number 26 Lifestyle, Diabetes, and Cardiovascular Risk Factors 10 Years after Bariatric Surgery Lars Sjostrom, M.D., Ph.D et al).
Second the Monash U study restricted diabetics to those diagnosed less than 2 years before the study. It's well known that at that early stage, mild lifestyle changes and light exercise 5 days a week, regardless of size will keep sugar levels down. And the media MISQUOTED the reseachers. The researchers NEVER said the diabetes of any of the cohort was "CURED". They used the word "IN REMISSION". (SOURCE: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/299/3/316).
Third, in our bicycle club, were 5 type II diabetics. 3 were super slim, 1 was a bit fat and 1 was very fat. But the very fat one exercised daily and watched his diet. The very fat one was the only one with well controlled sugar levels (normal A1c WITHOUT MEDICATION and he kept it that way until 13 years after diagnosis when he started to require oral medications which are still controlling him today at the 14 year point after diagnosis and he's STILL fat), the slightly fat one was on meds and had an A1c of over 8 despite keeping his weight down with controlled eating and exercising, And the 3 super slim ones were brittle... Add my FIL to the mix... had poorly controlled sugar levels despite being slim all his life and lost both his legs to diabetes. Add my friend in NY to the mix... slim all his life and not well controlled. And finally add a gent on one of my sports groups to the mix. Just got diagnosed. Watches what he eats and keeps slim AND exercises a lot and cannot control BSLs without meds as the fat diabetic I mentioned beforehand could do (who is a family member). It's hype doc, and people are having unnecessary surgery because of these (false) scare tactics. If being slim does not help the 33 percent of type II's who have never been fat, it's NOT going to help the others... not on the long run. *** "Because it's risky, it's [WLS] only appropriate for a tiny fraction of people with obesity—the sickest 1 to 2 percent. The idea that all obese people should get [WLS] surgery is insane."
Lee Kaplan, M.D., director of the Massachusetts General Hospital Weight Center in Boston in "Self MAGAZINE: 'The Miracle Weight Loss that isn't' AUG 2008 ***
Health experts contend that weight loss surgery is a "major surgery." One of the most common reasons why people would like to lose weight is to enhance their physical attributes. However, it should not be the underlying motivation that they should undergo the process of weight loss surgery. http://www.besthealthmed.com/weightloss.html
- Unknown said...
Susan WHo asked about scuba and lap band procedure. Christopher Oliver is another and Doctor/Blogger who actually had the lapband proceedure posts about the subject
at the link below or I also cut an pasted part of the entry
at 13:47 2 comments Links to this post
Monday, 5 November 2007
Scuba diving and adjustable laparoscopic gastric banding
Passed the theory and first five enclosed swimming pool scuba dives for PADI open water dive course this weekend. Will do the open water referral dives to obtain the PADI open water scuba qualification next month in India.
I see there is little literature on scuba and lap banding! Jesse Ahroni book "laparoscopic adjustable gastric banding" (page 92) says there is little problem as the band is fluid filled, as long as there is just air in the band! I'm not planning to dive any deeper than 60feet. I do not think gas bloat should be a problem either. I would stop on ascent and allow any gas to escape if any problems I suppose? There does seem to be some experience on LapBand Forum which shows there is not any problems with Lap Band and Scuba Diving. Any divers out there with adjustable gastric bands let me know your experiences?
- Sid Schwab said...
Thanks for the useful info.
I worked with Jessie Ahroni for a few years; it makes sense that there'd be no problem with diving. Altitude would be a theoretical issue, if there were much air in the balloon part of the band.
- This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
- Sid Schwab said...
Note to people who post here to promote their businesses: don't.
- This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
- Sid Schwab said...
Same goes for you, Robert. Go away and push your pills somewhere else.
- Kelsey said...
This is a great post! You are totally right about the religious fervor that WLS gets. But I think when something is such a small niche, they tend to be protective of it. :)
- Sid Schwab said...
L.S.Abroad: I guess you didn't see the warning about spam comments.
- Unknown said...
- This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
- Unknown said...
- This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
- Sue Joan said...
Sid re: diabetes - the newest study, a small but a clinical study found that a large percentage of gastric bypass patients had "irratic blood sugar levels" after surgery causing voracious appetite soon after eating.
The researchers also found that 80 percent of the patients also had undiagnosed "glucose abnormalities" including "high blood sugar" or "low blood sugar" or both. Dr. Roslin reported on this study at the 2009 ASMBS convention, suggesting that the gastric bypass may cause a heightened insulin response due to the rapid emptying of the pouch into the small bowel.
Roslin M, et al "Abnormal glucose tolerance testing following gastric bypass" Surg Obesity Related Dis 2009; 5(3 Suppl): Abstract PL-205.
link to article on medpage
- F. Belt said...
Most recently, someone from church had it done in May. She had been opposed to it a couple of years ago. Her sister was one of the first ones to have it done back in the 70's and she had to travel out of state to get it done. She had a miserable time of it and they didn't have the support systems/follow-up they have in place now. She is happy and supportive of her sister but would never do it again. She did regain the weight. The woman I know lost 80lbs between May and October and is very happy about it and said she would do it again. I only know of one woman personally who got the rubber band procedure but I don't know the outcome because I had stopped working at the hospital in which she worked as a nurse.


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