text:
This discussion was about food, the original poster thought, but there are important points made about control, logic, reason, child development, and the long-range effects of being harshly negative in the presence of trusting children.
Saved in case it disappears, from early February 2013 on Radical Unschooling Info
The note above was written here in 2013 and forgotten. In 2020, someone found and clicked "like" on something I had written in the discussion seven years ago. I came here to find a place to save what she had liked:It is from the discussion below, which you might still be able to read here (February 3, 2013), and if so you can still like, or even comment if you can join the group.If someone has access to the eggs of free range chickens and can afford them, that's wonderful! But if someone will tell a child that less expensive eggs are so inferior as to be worthless, what if their kids grow up and can only afford inexpensive eggs? What stress will come? How might they judge friends who offer them eggs, but they can see that it's a styrofoam carton from Costco? Will they think less of those friends? Will they turn down the homemade cookes with those eggs in them? All of that worry and judgment is worse for health than the eggs of an anonymous chicken. And it's worse for relationships between parents and children. And because of that, it is worse for unschooling.
Many of the comments are good. I hope it's still at the link above, for those interested. I'll try to minimize the names of those who were critical and might have changed their names, but for the unschooling discussion regulars, their names are worth keeping, because I want them to have credit for their willingness to explain, again, things they learned by unschooling.
I have cleaned up some formatting to make it easier to read here and have added links and updates in a few places.
More on that, from a 2016 discussion, is at SandraDodd.com/eating/orthorexia
Alice R:
Ok, a response in the tooth brushing question has led me to want to ask about something else. I am a very nutrition conscious person and my SIL is a holistic nutritionist. I do know the importance of eating vegetables and what sugar, especially refined white sugar and flour does to your body. And it really isn't good...sugar is empty calories and if a child or anyone, eats a bunch of cookies right before dinner, their blood sugar spikes and then crashes and they aren't likely to eat the other food because they will not be hungry, yet they have not ingested any actual nutrition. It also severely handicaps the immune response. This I know on a biological and physiological level to be true.Gwen Montoya:
If your kids are only three, then that works for you. When they get older, you may need to come up with other solutions.Alex Polikowsky:
My house has all kind of food to drink and eat. A huge can full of candy and chocolate, fruits, veggies (and in the Spring I plant a huge huge garden), meats, cereal, whole grain food and refined process food, water, juices, raw milk from our cows, pop and even cool aid.Aiden Kathleen Wagner:
What will you do when they want to go get a happy meal and McDonalds or buy a box of twinkies because their friend says their really yummy frozen?Alice R:
As I said at the end of my, admittedly, very long post, when they are older and understand what they are eating a bit better, then it is their choice. Like I said, if we are somewhere and are offered something or whatever, I don't make a big deal about it; they try it. They eat it. But at this age when it is all just yummy and there is no ability to understand, why should I buy anything and everything? Why would I give my three year old something that I choose not to eat because it isn't really food? A perfect example is homemade chocolate vs. an Aero bar. Now, if someone had an Aero bar, and they wanted it, I would not control that, but I don't need to bring it into the house if I can make them delicious chocolate from raw cocao nibs. And homemade cake with real ingredients vs. store bought full of things I can't pronounce. Or commercially raised chicken and eggs vs. local Pasteur raised, not fed GMO corn? Or hamburgers made from organic beef and oven fries instead of McDonalds? They don't know the difference but I do, and one day they will too. It doesn't mean I don't think they will ever have that stuff, but as long as I can protect them from something they don't understand...our modern food industry is full of slow-acting poisons, just because it isn't quick doesn't make it less toxic.Heather Booth:
You've said "When they're old enough" more than once. I'm curious, how old is old enough in your mind for them to make choices about what food they would like to have in the house to eat on a regular basis?Gwen Montoya:
I have a friend who is fifty years old and diabetic. Last week he ate 5 brownies and spiked his blood sugar from 108 to 180. So, he understands what eating 5 brownies does to his system, but does it anyway.Alice R:
I don't think there is an arbitrary age at all. .I am not talking about controlling these things the way you seem to think I am. But you would not feed your children windshield wiper fluid because its a pretty blue hue and they want it, would you? Are you aware that it is one of the main ingredients in artificial flavors? Knowing this and the true nature of other parts of our modern "food" industry, it seems just as irresponsible to buy my children the products that contain these poisons. If I buy all of it and then they grow up learning about it, as they will because it is part of our family culture, wouldn't they feel betrayed? I don't know exactly how to deal with this; that is why I am reaching out to this community. If I had the answers, I would not have asked..maybe I just hope that their understanding of where food comes from develops earlier.Regan Avery:
Do they go shopping with you? At some point, they are going to recognize the photo on a package of something they tasted at a party, and they will request that you buy some.Alice R:
Yeah....so what is the answer then? And I am talking more about things more insidious then sugar anyway.Alice R:
Yes....all of these statements are very obvious. I know they will see it and want it. Even money is an issue. If I can buy a chicken that will feed us all for a meal and then make soup with it OR the junk food they want because it has a pretty package, are you telling me you all buy the junk instead?Regan Avery:
If something really makes my child sick, I don't buy it. Mine has a sesame allergy, so I just say, "Sorry, that has sesame. Let's find something you like that doesn't."Alice R:
Ok, that's what I meant. Thank you.Gwen Montoya:
But don't make up an allergy to make you feel better about not allowing your kids to eat something. They will eventually find out you are lying to them.Regan Avery:
My child also requests extra Tylenol because he likes the grape flavor. I say 'no' for that also, because excess Tylenol is not safe.Colleen Prieto:
****are you telling me you all buy the junk instead?****Gwen Montoya:
Well...yeah. Don't feed a kid cold medicine because they like the taste. But there is a whole world of grape flavored things out there to explore. Offer those.Cat Forest:
Alice, when my girls were little like yours, I did the same thing you did and had the same beliefs (still do, but I try to relax about them since I really want my children to feel in charge of their food choices and not project my values/judgement on them). Once, when we were at a party (they were maybe 3 or 4 - I have twins), they ate an entire bowl of Party mix (JF wanted to stop them and I suggest we let them decide when they had enough). They got sick... And I realized that maybe by keeping them so "clean" and healthy, I was not doing them such a favor... Then, I started noticing their grabbing/food harping habits when we were out and there was different food from what we had at home, so I started buying some of those (it started with nachos, Kettle chips, pretzels, etc.).Meredith Meredith:
Your kids are still little - there's a developmental shift around age 4ish which is really big in terms of decision-making. Before that shift, kids are mostly interested in making choices about things right in front of them. AFter, they become interest…See MoreCat Forest:
Now, my girls can eat whatever they eat, whenever they eat, but it took them a long them to overcome their "fear of food" (I gave them some information, thinking like you, that I had to provide them with some knowledge that the food they requested contained artificial flavors and bad chemicals, but it only created more harm...). What I can say from my experience is just provide good meals, monkey platters with lots of diversified food (food you feel good serving them and maybe some more commercial health food store food they may come accross outside of home). Don't fill their heads with information, just allow them to experiment with food, feel what it does in their body (without telling them: I told you so, see how you feel now?) and trust that in the end, it will balance out. Not easy, I know. I watched my 8 yo daughter eat her first red-dyed cotton candy at the zoo last week and feel like crap for a couple of days afterward... but I knew it was OK and I didn't wonder if I should have said no.Heather Booth:
I am a vegetarian. When I made that choice I made it for the whole family, without consultation. I told them that they could eat all the meat they wanted, but that they'd have to get it on the outside because I wasn't going to cook it anymore. I had already instated a no junk food policy in the house, so it was just one more way I controlled what they ate in an effort to keep them healthy. Being the one who read about health and nutrition I was the one who knew. And I thought I knew better than they did what was best for them.Meredith Meredith:
-=-But you will never see me buying moon pies it twinkles or feeding them McDonalds-=-Alice R:
That is the part of this conversation that I really wanted to get at; I don't say no or ever make them feel guilty...i don't want to. I don't plan to...I just don't know how to handle it knowing what I know.Colleen Prieto:
****just don't know how to handle it knowing what I know.****Alice R:
these answers and insights have been very helpful. Thank you.Meredith Meredith:
Alice, do you know the zen parable of the teacup? (I'm hoping someone else remembers where the teacup story is on Sandra's site, because I don't!) Maybe what you know is in the way of learning something new. Can you let go of what you know about nutrition long enough to look at your kids without assuming you know what's going on inside them? Watching kids make choices about food is amazing! It's a very different process than what you might think - especially if you're holding tight to what you've already learned.
Gwen Montoya:
But they are only three. Parenting a three year old is vastly different from parenting a six or eight or ten year old.Gwen Montoya:
My oldest prefers my homemade baking to store bought treats. Anything brightly colored tastes off to her and she avoids it. But she wouldn't have that knowledge if she hasn't experimented with it.Sandra Dodd:
-=-I am not talking about controlling these things the way you seem to think I am.-=-Sandra Dodd:
This site might help as much as the pages about eating. https://sandradodd.com/gettingitAlice R:
I am not believing that they won't. That's the problem! I am scared! Omg. That's what it comes down to. I am afraid they will get sick and I will have failed them. Wow. I am afraid.Jenny Cyphers:
I saw this yesterday... It's an exaggeration for sure, but the point is there. it's about fear and food and healthy eating. I'm in no way saying you do what the person in the article does, but what you say about knowing about nutrition leads you away from eating certain things because you fear the unhealthy outcomes.Annie Kessler:
"If I buy all of it and then they grow up learning about it, as they will because it is part of our family culture, wouldn't they feel betrayed? "Jenny Cyphers:
What I found, with my chocolate loving kid, is that after trying as many kinds of chocolate many times, she prefers the very plain gourmet chocolates over almost any other kind. She will settle for other kinds if she's in the mood for chocolate and nothing else is available in the moment. Even so, I have chocolate coins in my pantry that have been there for months. I should probably throw them out. She wanted them for the coin foil wrappers.Kris-Anne Spring:
My parents did not let me eat much sugar when I was little. I had a very weight conscious mother and was kept limited in what I could eat. I remember sneaking sweets, and certainly by the time I was a teen, I was eating a lot of food when my parents weren't home. My mom couldn't figure out why I gained 30 pounds in my teen years! to this day, I have a wicked sweet tooth and am not always very good about 'will power.' I just think when you control what a kid eats too much, it can backfire. I mean, let's face it, eating is one of the great joys of life and there's a lot of awfully yummy foods out there to never have any. My queso blanco cheese dip is cooking right now...Annie Kessler:
Jenny, that reminds me of a conversation from about a year ago. Some moms were talking about how they couldn't keep ice cream around the house because then of course, that's all their kids would want to eat! They were sure their children would never eat anything else as long as there was ice cream available. And at the time I remember thinking about the half full box of ice cream sandwiches in the freezer that had been there so long I should probably toss them.Sandra Dodd:
-=- That's the problem! I am scared! -=-Jenny Cyphers:
Here's another thing to consider, you may end up with a kid who is a foodie. I have one! It didn't come about by limiting her food, it was very much the opposite. It wasn't just food either, it was shows on and about food. There are just so many of them that are brilliant! Unwrapped was a particular favorite for a while. Not all corporate food is evil and bad. It just isn't. There are some terrible things in the food industry, I get that, and I think most people do who are in any way interested in where there food comes from. We don't live our lives by that though. We find things we like and eat them or make them.Schuyler Waynforth:
Fear of food for your children is a normal fear. It isn't necessarily the fear of food, although I imagine that there were lots of people like Kellogg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Keith_Kellogg), who've been micromanaging their children's diet to keep them safe from unknown and unknowable risk.Jenna B:
Alice, I can feel where you are coming from. We have just started giving my daughter a lot more control of what she eats. It is scary when you know about some of the crazy things that are done in the food industry, and we want to protect our kids. What I am finding is that my daughter is starting to make some healthy choices that I would struggle to make and she has way more control over the amounts of food that she eats than I do. Just yesterday we were sharing a hot fudge sundae on a road trip and she grew tired of it while I was cleaning out the very last drops.Sam Pearson:
I've heard over and over how if children eat cookies before meals they won't eat their dinner but I've not observed this in my three children. My kids more often than not eat their desert before their dinner and they always eat their dinner afterwards. I really don't think the order makes any difference.Meredith Meredith:
It helped me, when my kids were younger, to read stories of other unschooling families with kids older than mine - the most "radical" unschoolers I could find, as a way of reassuring myself. After all, if allllllll the scary things are true, then families who don't regulate what kids eat should be full of sick kids, right? But they aren't. They aren't all magic poster children who eat broccoli at every meal ;) but they are lively, curious people, actively exploring their worlds.Cat Forest:
Yes, Meredith, I fully agree.Tauna Grinager:
We've relaxed a lot around food - I don't say no to any requests anymore, and never have when we're at someone else's house. But like the OP, I'm mindful about what we buy and where we shop. We mostly go to the the farmers market and locally-owned healthier food store (lots of alternatives for processed foods - many labeled non-gmo - we do buy him the "junk" food he likes from there).Aiden Kathleen Wagner:
My son is one year old. I haven't had many limits on his food at all, beyond safety issues like not giving him whole grapes. He's already quite able to decide what he likes and doesn't like, and when he's had enough. The other day he decided he was done with a chocolate chip cookie and tried to force me to eat it! Conversely a few days ago he left a graham cracker on my knee, reached over and took a big chunk of my home-made hamburger from me. Obviously some of that is being curious about sharing and what Mommy's eating, but a lot of it is also that he's learning already to listen to how his body feels. He very rarely wants to share his bananas with me. Those are his favorite food and he's too busy enjoying them. I trust that if we continue like this he will be happy and most likely healthy.Cat Forest:
And you know what? (Careful, this might be considered a bit extreme to some of you... I hesitated to post it). When my daughter who suffers from epileptic absences eats stuff containing food dye, she gets more absences (like 30 to 40 per day instead of 5 to 10, they are not dangerous, she simply stops what she is doing and does not hear us for 10 sec aproximately). Not sleeping enough does the same to her.Sandra Dodd:
-= a lot more control of what she eats. It is scary -=-Sandra Dodd:
Samantha, I agree with this:Sandra Dodd :-=-I've heard over and over how if children eat cookies before meals they won't eat their dinner but I've not observed this in my three children.-=-My kids sometimes ate something sweet at restaurants while they were waiting for the protein portion of the meal, and still ate. And they didn't eat more than they actually wanted (neither of "dessert" nor of food). At family meals, we never "did dessert." The use of sweets as a reward causes problem. They have been making their own choices since they were born. It's a marvel to see how kids who haven't been threatened, frightened and limited can tell what food they need, if any.
-=-Controlling food choices, and trying to instil my own fears and worries into my son or my husband is not happy relationship material.-=-Sandra Dodd:
-=-the more I learn, the more I realize that eating a plant-based, whole foods diet is the healthiest for human bodies.-=-Tauna Grinager:
I also wanted to mention that I think there is a balance to find, as there is to all things. We have friends from one spectrum to another - one family that mostly eats processed and fast foods. And another so extreme they must bring a huge ice chest filled with their own food (including salad makings pre-washed with their special filtered water), just to have dinner at grandparent's house. The husband is so filled with fear that he doesn't want their 5yo going to birthday parties and won't allow him to trick-or-treat. I think that the stress, fear and controlling behavior is far more damaging than a daily habit of Little Debbie cakes. Not just to their relationships with everyone, but his own health.Meredith Novak:
-=-I'm not going to buy something at the grocery store that has a cute, fun character on it, just because the marketers for the company are targeting my kids. They don't want the food--they want the flashy packaging.-=-Sandra Dodd:
-=-We practice wellness and treat food as a way to fuel our bodies...what goes in, is what comes out.-=-Jenny Cyphers:
I wish I could double like what Aiden Kathleen Wagner wrote because it so very much reflects my reality! This refers to one nine posts up, beginning "My son is one year old. I haven't had many limits on his food at all..."Sandra Dodd:
-=-If I can buy a chicken that will feed us all for a meal and then make soup with it OR the junk food they want because it has a pretty package, are you telling me you all buy the junk instead?-=-Jenny Cyphers:
"They don't want the food--they want the flashy packaging."Samantha Pearson:
My mother is unhappy that my kids sometimes have icecream for breakfast - well, only my youngest chooses to do this these days as the older kids aren't that into ice cream or dairy products in general anymore — then later on through the day she'll eat all kinds of other foods. I see that if the order of food she eats over the course of a day was reversed nobody would think twice about it. My mother also doesn't like it that I like to have a very small glass of wine with my lunch occasionally because it's in the daytime yet is totally accepting of people drinking to excess so long as it's in the evening. These schedules times to consume certain things make sense to some people but our sleeping/eating/working schedule isn't so traditional. Still, at the end of the day we still eat, sleep and work pretty much the same amount as other people.Jo Isaac:
I don't believe I could possibly know what is 'healthy' or 'unhealthy' for someone else's body, because I'm not living in their body. My son and I like lentils and quinoa...probably considered 'healthy'. But my husband can't eat either without getting a very upset tummy. My husband is allergic to peanuts - Kai and I love Snickers. Kai is severely allergic to prawns. I'm intolerant to prawns if I eat them two days in a row. Brett loves prawns. Kai is 6 - he's growing rapidly, his body needs completely different foods to my 42 year old body - different combinations of carbs, protein, sugar, fat, etc... All that variation in dietary requirments just in our little family of 3...the person who best knows what Kai's body needs to grow and remain healthy is Kai.Alice R:
"Knowledge is power," exactly. I have knowledge and I can't ignore it. Like the fact that propylene glycol is what we put in our cars to keep the engine from freezing and is also a main ingredient of artificial flavors. Which was my question earlier; if you wouldn't let your kids drink that because it's poison, why buy them something full of the same ingredient and say "help yourself." If you wouldn't let your kids eat Tylenol because it is really bad for them, even though it tastes good, why is it different to let them eat poison disguised as food? It has nothing to do with being afraid; I am not afraid of food, but if I know a food contains a known poisonous ingredient, why would I give it to them? And I think there are a whole bunch of products out there being called food that really are not food at all. There is nothing wrong with making sure my kids know the difference. I am not saying they have never had it and I am not saying they will never have it again, but I'm not going to have it in my house for them to help themselves (which they are free to do with what is in my house) any more than I would let them eat a bottle of Tylenol. There is no difference. There is freedom and then there is something else. Just because you don't know something or choose not to know, does not mean it is any less harmful to our bodies.Alice R:
Those are all real foods you are talking about. I am talking about things that are not actually food at all.Catherine Forest :
Well, then, it seems pretty clear to you. So you want us to convince you to give the "poisonous food" to your child in the name of unschooling? What else do you want us to tell you at this point?Jo Isaac:
==There is freedom and then there is something else.==KrisAnne Spring Landry:
I googled propylene glycol, out of curiosity and didn't come up with any solid evidence that it causes harm. It is not a "poison" and comparing it to overdosing on Tylenol is really not a convincing argument. I think people can get really paranoid about food issues and set up power struggles with kids; don't drive yourself crazy.
Peanuts are poisonous for some people. Yes. But prawns and peanuts are REAL FOOD that grow and live until it is fished. There is a huge difference between that and a "product," that is refined and processed and contains actual poison that is poisonous to everyone.
Jo Isaac:
==I was interested in what you had to say on the subject==Schuyler Waynforth:
No, you aren't. You are talking about things you've decided are dangerous based, probably, on readings you've done or conversations you've had that point out how one thing is being used for something else and how can that be safe?Catherine Forest:
Alice, please don't treat us like we don't know anything about chemicals in food. I know ALL about it and had the same questions you had 5 years ago when I came to unschooling.Gwen Montoya:
Alice - I think you have a picture in your head that shows families who don't restrict food living off of McDonald's, Doritos, Coke, and Snickers bars. It really isn't like that.Jenny Cyphers:
"But prawns and peanuts are REAL FOOD that grow and live until it is fished. There is a huge difference between that and a "product," that is refined and processed and contains actual poison that is poisonous to everyone."Karen James:
There's a humourous (to me) thing that happens between my son and I when we eat out in a mall food court near our house. I go for the "junk" food, while he always goes for the more healthy options of sushi, veggie stir fries, or indian food. When I go to a place like that to eat, I want the foods that I don't normally have. When Ethan eats out, he seems to want what he knows he likes and will satisfy him. I never remark aloud about our very different choices. He has never commented either. Different choices, perhaps, stemming from different upbringings? I'm not sure, but it's interesting.Alice R:
And I think some people on here have a picture of me being restrictive and controlling and paranoid and that is not the case either. I am not responding to everyone, i am responding to some on here making some really heavy assumptions about me and suggesting I forget what I know about the food industry. That is what I am finding frustrating.Jenny Cyphers:
hmmm, I don't think anyone said to forget everything you know about the food industry. I think people are saying that while that voice is louder than your children's voice, that it could become a problem once your children have a voice in food choices.Alice R:
It's also upsetting to me that we are all about not controlling and yet the control imposed upon people by the government and big corp through our food chain is huge. Empowering ourselves to not buy into what they are selling should, I feel, be part of that.Sandra Dodd:
-=- I don't believe I could possibly know what is 'healthy' or 'unhealthy' for someone else's body-=-Jenny Cyphers:
"Empowering ourselves to not buy into what they are selling should, I feel, be part of that."Schuyler Waynforth:
Oh, to add to the propylene glycol fear discussion, it can be derived from canola and soybeans. "The Truth About Propylene Glycol, According to a Chemist" is an interesting article about not being afraid of propylene glycol.Sandra Dodd:
-=- I can't keep talking about this. I was interested in what you had to say on the subject, but I'm going to leave it at that because we are going in circles.-=-Schuyler Waynforth:
Chemicals are everywhere. You are made up of chemicals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_of_the_human_body is pretty cool. Some of what you are made up of is poisonous. Arsenic isn't something that you would keep on your kitchen shelf, but there it is at .000026 percent of your body mass.Alice R:
Yes, but we should all be questioning that, no? Just because it is on the shelves and our government allows it to be, does not mean it is actually fit for human consumption. Does anyone understand what I am saying?Jenny Cyphers:
I think everyone understands what you are saying.Annie Kessler:
But in order for a child to be empowered to not buy into what they are selling (gov't, corporations, food industry, etc.) they have to have the choice to buy as much as the choice not to buy. If they don't have a choice in the matter, how are they being empowered?Sandra Dodd:
-=-I have been in your shoes and all I can tell you is that it took years to fix what I broke-=-Katy B:
My son's friend came over recently and brought a Lunchables for her lunch. When my son saw it, he really wanted one, so I asked my husband to add it to the grocery list. I have to admit, though, that my FIRST response was to say: we can make homemade Lunchables with food we have here at the house! (and I was definitely thinking *healthier* food we have at the house!). But he said no, he wanted a Lunchables just like the one his friend had. My husband's first response (to me) was: I don't want to buy that processed junk all the time! And I said: I don't either. But he hasn't asked for it *all the time*. He's asked for it *once*. It's interesting to him, and important to him. Let's buy it once, without getting too worked up about it, and then let's just see what happens next.Sarah Heiner:
"We make alot of our own whole wheat sourdough bread and buy sprouted grain bread."Alice R:
I do give my kids choices about food. Constantly. Every day. Every time they eat...but if I know for a fact (not just because there are big words in the ingredient list that are hard to pronounce) that it is something that literally should not exist as a choice, why would I choose to provide it as an option?Schuyler Waynforth:
-=-Yes, but we should all be questioning that, no?-=-Sarah Heiner:
"that it is something that literally should not exist as a choice"Jenny Cyphers:
Alice, if your kids aren't requesting things other than what you are providing, then why is it an issue at all? They are really little. When mine were little I had a LOT of say in what they ate. They had very little say in what was available, not because I didn't care about what they liked or not but because it is what I thought was best and I bought it with my money and brought it home in my car to my house. At some point it became our food and our car and our house. It's hard to say when that transition happens, but it does happen and if the WE part is still YOU, it's a problem that is really about YOU.Melissa Knauf:
Fascinating thread- and real confirmation for me. Thank you all for sharing. I too come from a place of having done so much 'research' on foods- I was almost scared to eat anything. I have seen the negative effects of this in myself and my daughter, and we are now transitioning to eating freely- based on our genuine choices. I too had many many fears, but this thread has made so much sense to me. Thanks again- I'm very grateful for all the wisdom here and for all the time you've each taken to share:)Sarah Heiner:
I'm generally a very healthy person and the source of most of the 'healthy' foods in our house. And I eat Oreos about once every 5 or 6 months. I love them with a big glass of milk. I don't do well with either cow's milk or Oreos. I enjoy the hell out of those Oreos and that milk and then ... I feel blah for hours, sometimes a whole day. My kids laugh about that, that I choose to eat something that makes me feel yucky. But they also don't have hangups about 'bad' food or 'good' food, just how does it make you feel? How does it affect you? Do you like it? Is it worth it? We don't talk about all of those questions - except for when I grab a bag of Oreos at the store - but those are questions my kids get to ask and answer themselves and they see us doing it as well and accepting the consequences.Sandra Dodd:
-=- I go for the "junk" food-=-Schuyler Waynforth:
From what Alice has written in this discussion I think it is simply curiosity about what the unschooling perspective might be on greater food choice than she is comfortable offering.Jenny Cyphers:
Some people think potatoes are terrible. I think I must be destined by my Irish ancestry to love potatoes. Sometimes I will eat an entire bag of potato chips for a meal. My kids would never do that, have never done that. Sometimes it is the ONLY thing I want. Sometimes potatoes are more important to me than any other food ever. If someone were to take away my potatoes because they felt it was bad for me, I would be more than mad. I would probably cry. Seriously!Sandra Dodd :
-=-Yes, but we should all be questioning that, no? Just because it is on the shelves and our government allows it to be, does not mean it is actually fit for human consumption. Does anyone understand what I am saying?-=-Sandra Dodd:
-=- I still think Lunchables is probably mostly chemically laden crap food. -=-Sandra Dodd:
-=- if I hadn't provided the Lunchables when he asked, I'd have missed out on such a cool experience, where I got to watch and help him seek out an experience, and then recreate and re-enact that experience with the resources we had on hand. I just can't even explain how cool that was to do/see!-=-Jenny Cyphers:
Margaux loves Lunchables. She loves the way they are packaged. She loves the way it tastes. She loves the various combinations of items. She loves finding similar items packaged in similar but different ways. She LOVES it! I'm very serious when I say this! LOVE! I find them on sale almost all the time but I've paid upwards to $5 for one of those things simply because she wanted it and needed to eat and that was her choice over all the other things available.Alice R:
Right. I have stepped out of the realm of what is allowed here; I simply do not understand that, but ok then. I thought I was having a discussion with people. I am not laden with negativity, I am simply interested in how this works. This is about my kids and being focused on them.Jenny Cyphers:
The part about "nothing to do with unschooling" was about fear and control. Those things have nothing to do with unschooling. That was my understanding.Jenny Cyphers:
A crusade against the evils of Monsanto isn't about unschooling, even if I personally would join one.Karen James :
-=- I go for the "junk" food-=-Jenny Cyphers:
Usually, whenever I heard the phrase "junk food", I always pictured french fries and potato chips and marshmallows. It was very easy to dismiss anything potato related as junk. Marshmallows took a while, but they have a very fascinating history and history isn't junk anymore than marshmallows are, especially when they've provided many discussions of combustibles.Alice R:
No, it's not, but for me it is a huge issue when I comes to allowing any and all food into my home. I cannot avoid Monsanto products, but I can try as much as possible. If our food chain were to become completely tainted with things we should not be consuming as humans, this whole undchooling thing could have horrific results and would have to change. I don't understand why that is out of the realm of this discussion. For me it IS the discussion. I cannot in good conscious buy that food any more then I could let my children play on a busy street. I doubt any of you would do that either and for me it is the same thing.Sandra Dodd:
When I hear "junk food" I think of cheetohs and Slim Jims, but I bet they would be healthier than some of the foods prisoners and impoverished people are getting, and they're made of food, it's just put back together oddly. And I would NOT ever have told my kids, if they wanted those things, "NO, that is JUNK. That's not even food." I think there have been Slim Jims as car-trip snacks a time or two (bought by guys) and sometimes a bag of Cheetohs got brought to a park day. They were neither godly nor satanic.Alice R:
We have eaten and do eat what many would call junk food. I don't use that word either. I call things what they are; chips, chocolate, fries.
Junk food. Oh jeez. I think of some sculpture made of car parts and looks like food.Jo Isaac:
Before unschooling, I used to think of Macca's when I heard "Junk Food". I'm not sure I can really conjure up any image now though - I might keep Schuylers image in my mind for future reference!Tara V:Jenny Cyphers Jo, I had to look up Macca's and now I know you live in Australia!
I tell my kids all the time, "That's not healthy food for growing a healthy body." Sometimes we eat them, but they know that we put importance on feeding our bodies good, healthy foods.Jenny Cyphers:
Kids don't like feeling yucky. It really is that simple. They won't eat what makes them feel yucky, or they will choose to eat things and deal with it.Annie Kessler:
Is eating a Hershey bar really comparable to letting a small child play in a busy street?Alice R:
I did not say anything about Hershey bars.Sarah Heiner:
You have, actually, called it junk in this thread. "are you telling me you all buy the junk instead"Annie Kessler:
Earlier on in this thread you referred to aero bars which I believe are made by Hershey. But either way, what foods would you say are equated with playing in a busy street?Schuyler Waynforth:
It may help for you to look and see if the behaviour is really about the food or about the instances where and when the food is eaten. Sometimes food that is not usually in a child's diet is eaten at parties, at friends' houses, out at a restaurant or a mall or somewhere not necessarily a part of daily activities. You could keep a personal log of when those foods are eaten and see if the timing of their food intake is playing a role in the respondent behaviour. Maybe, also, keep a record of their dietary intake on other days and their subsequent behaviour. It could be that you are more tired on the days when your daughter is eating things with food dyes in them and you are more sensitive to her behaviour.Sarah Heiner:
I miss the chocolate I ate in Ireland. I used to think of that as 'junk' food. Didn't stop me from eating it.Sandra Dodd:
In the initial post: " I would like to describe what I have always done and am open to discussion! "Tara V:
We've done food diaries and such. It's definitely the food dyes.Sandra Dodd:
-=-I tell my kids all the time, "That's not healthy food for growing a healthy body." Sometimes we eat them, but they know that we put importance on feeding our bodies good, healthy foods.-=-Jenny Cyphers:
There were 2 teens here at our house today that had pretty big food issues. One insisted that various things caused her to be sick, one was red food dye, the other was wheat. She ate bread at our home. She was selectively choosing what to eat. The other girl will eat whatever is healthy and throw it up.Tara V:
Shaming them?Schuyler Waynforth:
And you examined the situation in which those foods were eaten? You looked at whether or not your daughter was more tired than at other times? More excited? More played out? Or did you just look at the food that went in and the behaviour and ascribed the behaviour as an outcome of the food?Tara V:
It does matter. If she feels out of control. If her attention is decreased. If she acts aggressively toward her siblings. She knows exactly how dyes make her feel. She has expressed it to me herself in her own words. Yet she still at times asks for the foods that cause her to feel badly. If I don't buy those foods and keep them in our house, aren't I helping her?Tara V:
My kids know there's a difference between farm fresh eggs and the eggs that come from the grocery store. They've seen it. They've tasted it. I talk to them about where their foods come from and the differences. I don't see that as shaming.Schuyler Waynforth:
If you don't buy those foods when she asks for them you aren't helping her to explore her own relationship with food. Food is a very basic, very fundamental part of life. Food dyes are in lots of foods. If food dyes are a lasting issue for her it will be easier if she learns how she wants to navigate that in her childhood. In a safe a supportive home.Jenny Cyphers:
That's not what Sandra was referring to. All food can grow a healthy body. You were making a division of which foods can and cannot grow healthy bodies.Tara V:
That's definitely a distinction I'm going to stick to. There is food that grows healthy bodies and food that doesn't.Schuyler Waynforth:
"That's not healthy food for growing a healthy body."Schuyler Waynforth:
-=-where have I gone wrong?-=-Jenny Cyphers:
Tara, the things you are using to justify aren't the things people are having an issue with.Sandra Dodd:
If someone has access to the eggs of free range chickens and can afford them, that's wonderful! But if someone will tell a child that less expensive eggs are so inferior as to be worthless, what if their kids grow up and can only afford inexpensive eggs? What stress will come? How might they judge friends who offer them eggs, but they can see that it's a styrofoam carton from Costco? Will they think less of those friends? Will they turn down the homemade cookes with those eggs in them? All of that worry and judgment is worse for health than the eggs of an anonymous chicken. And it's worse for relationships between parents and children. And because of that, it is worse for unschooling.Tara V:
I suppose I simplified it too much. That statement is almost always followed by a discussion of ingredients and why certain things are healthy and why they are not. I guess I'm failing to see how educating them about the foods they are eating is a bad thing. If we talk about it openly, and not in a shaming way. I frequently have them read ingredients with me while we are in the store. Sometimes we decide to buy the food anyway. Sometimes we decide to find an alternative. It's not as simple as saying, "That's not healthy food." and moving on. It's a learning process.Jenny Cyphers:
It's good to offer alternatives. Talking about food isn't a bad thing as long as there isn't some hidden agenda.Sandra Dodd:
-=-I guess I'm failing to see how educating them ... is a bad thing.-=-Jenny Cyphers:
When Margaux was little, she didn't handle dairy well. She loved fudgecicles though. We bought the non dairy kind. She never knew there was a difference, until she was about 5. Once she knew she wanted to try other things than the things we had always bought. It was touch and go for a while but she seems to have outgrown that issue with dairy.Schuyler Waynforth:
Thank you for saying that with greater clarity than I was managing, Sandra.Sandra Dodd:
-=- I guess I'm failing to see how educating them about the foods they are eating is a bad thing.-=-Jenny Cyphers:
Even in the context of good parenting, I've seen it do damage.Gwen Montoya:
Sometimes, with parents or adults, "educating" a child about something looks a lot like a lecture.Sandra Dodd:
-=- There are big grown up things that some grown ups care about: pollution, the environment, what is in food, global warming, how people in other countries are treated, clutter/living simply, excess packaging, etc. But that stuff isn't interesting to a little kid who just wants to eat, play, and explore. -=-Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** I am afraid they will get sick and I will have failed them. ***Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** If I buy all of it and then they grow up learning about it, as they will because it is part of our family culture, wouldn't they feel betrayed? ***Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
Here's something I wrote a bit ago on Unschooling Basics that might help.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:Every time this topic comes up the natural foodists assume the discussion is about how their beliefs are wrong. But it isn't. It's about how Mom can hold strong beliefs AND open the world to her kids so they feel free and supported in deciding what's right for them -- even if it's counter to what mom believes.
*** But you would not feed your children windshield wiper fluid because it's a pretty blue hue and they want it, would you? ***Heather Durden Stich:
Sandra Dodd & Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll, I came to unschooling to provide a better way to learn for my kids. Then I came to RU because I discovered it was about more than school. Now I'm discovering my hang-ups about food/nutrition/healthy food obsessions/weekend "junk" binges and controlling the groceries in our home and now radically unschooling (and your wisdom!) is helping me to unravel these problems and live wholly in the area of food too! RU has SO MUCH been about me discovering issues I didn't even know I had, and life at home is blooming. I can't thank you enough for sharing your knowledge!Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** Those are all real foods you are talking about. I am talking about things that are not actually food at all. ***Tara V:
Ok I'm not trying to be stubborn or argumentative here. I really want to understand.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** Saying that this information about food is an opinion is like saying that gravity is just your personal opinion ***Colleen Prieto:
****Buying three boxes of lucky charms at $5 a box (I have three kids who will want their own box or some other cereal for themselves) will keep me from being able to buy $15 of fresh fruits and vegetables.****Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** How do you live an RU lifestyle on a budget? ***Caren Knox:
"I honestly don't see the scientific information about food and our bodies as a fair comparison to an invisible deity in the sky. Saying that this information about food is an opinion is like saying that gravity is just your personal opinion and I might not break my legs if I jump off my roof."Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** Buying three boxes of lucky charms at $5 a box (I have three kids who will want their own box ***Sacha Davis Alice:
I think you have a sweet, compliant three year old. My son was full in the grips of pickiness by three so it became about finding stuff he would eat, which means a lot falls by the wayside. It is amazing that we have the privilege and space in our society to obsess about food almost down to the molecular level. Since we don't deal with food scarcity and we can defeat most infectious diseases, since most of us will live long lives in comparison to people on the past, whether or not we ingest processed foods, since old age, failure of the immune system and lifestyle diseases are our biggest threats, there is a lot of emotional space to see small things as huge threats. In 30 years differences between my thee year old daughter and yours will be indiscernible regardless of their diets and despite me taking mine to McDonald's for french fries. You are right that the whole world would be better off with less food dye and processed foods, and most likely your kids will agree with that when they are older, but that is their journey and it's not your job to indoctrinate them but to be their companion on it.Alice R:
That's how I feel too, Tara V. I am not talking here about saying "because I said so," or "we don't eat that, end of story."Alice R:
Nope, not remotely compliant. I have twins and they are far from compliant. Also, the world DOES know that GMO's are horrible; they have been banned almost everywhere except here.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** they have been banned almost everywhere except here. ***Alice R:
I don't do that!! I don't intend to hide them from the world and not let then try things. I am protecting them from these things now when that doesn't happen and when they see something and want to try it, they can try it! I'm talking about making healthy choices now, when I am the one providing it and not introducing them to that stuff just for the sake of it. Did you read my non-anxiety filled story? I don't say to them, "that food is bad," to me that is the equivalent of saying, "because I said so," no thank you. I know they will be exposed to it I know they will try it but I can do my best now to give them yummy things that aren't full of that stuff and I see nothing wrong with that.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** To me it is no different then showing them to look for cars before they cross the road. ****Alice R:
I never not once said I would not or do not let them try things they want to try.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** but I can do my best now to give them yummy things that aren't full of that stuff and I see nothing wrong with that. ***Sacha Davis:
There are more ways than words to convey anxiety and danger. Yes it is good you are avoiding saying things but that doesn't mean you are accomplishing neutrality. You may let them try things, but could you actually watch them put what you see as the same as window cleaner into their bodies and not convey you disapproval in any way? Todo that you need to see value on the "poison" and you clearly don't.Sacha Davis:
Adding that you are having a hard time with a group of strangers on the Internet not agreeing with your view that food is poison, and we're not your KIDS.Alice R:
I suppose I feel as though there is an idea of me being paranoid and telling them all this stuff is bad and to never eat it. I am reading. I re read the entire thread last night, and I reread the section of Sandra's site.Alice R:
Omg Sacha Davis I am having a hard time with the fact that I am being portrayed as a paranoid food freak who is terrified of the world.Alice R:
And sorry Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll I am not meaning to seem like I am not taking it in. Further up in the thread it was suggested that my kids might prefer the Hershey bar to my homemade and how will they know and what am I going to do then? It has been suggested many times that I am filled with fear and putting that on my kids. They have had Hershey. They have had a lot of stuff. In my original question I said you won't find me buying twinkies, etc. I meant right now when they don't know what that is. I am responding to people who just have this stuff in their house all the time and seem to want their kids to try every weird food and have pop every day. If my kids grow up with juice and water and soda when someone has it or its around, what is the big deal?Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
Don't worry about what we're thinking of you. We're responding to the *ideas*, the *pictures* you're painting with your words, NOT judging you. (Until you start writing at huge length to clear up our supposed misconceptions of you!) We're waiting for clear IDEAS! Write clearly. Ask a question. Ask it clearly. We're analyzing the ideas you're posting, not analyzing or judging you.Sacha Davis:
You kind of sound like one and this is the giant impersonal internets. Just drop the poison talk and enjoy your hot dog. We eat the pizza. I get being a big picture person. I am too. On the big picture, seeing food as poison could be just as dangerous as the food itself for a kid. It sounds like you're on the right track and should simply not worry about MY food cupboard.Colleen Prieto:
****I am responding to people who just have this stuff in their house all the time and seem to want their kids to try every weird food and have pop every day****Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** Further up in the thread it was suggested that my kids ..."Annie Kessler:
Maybe part of the confusion here is this idea you have that we have houses full of twinkles and want our kids to try every weird food and drink pop every day? I don't think anyone is saying that. We rarely buy soda. Recently we bought some for a birthday party and during his own party my son asked for water instead of soda. The adults drank more soda than any of the kids. The rest of that soda is in the basement awaiting the next gathering. Occasionally we bring a few up when anyone asks for one, but the cases were taking up too much room on our counter when no one (but me and my husband) was drinking it, and we prefer not to drink it. Both of our kids seem to have no problem bypassing the soda right on the counter but if it is there we tend to drink it.Alexandra Souza Lima Polikowsky:
I think that when some people hear unschoolers saying that they do not call some foods junk and that they gladly have them at home if their kids like them they imagine homes where kids live on Twinkies, cool aid, candy and that is all the kids are fed or choose to have.Tara V:
I have no anxiety around food. I am informed.Annie Kessler:
It's like ordering a pizza. We ask everyone in the house what they want on their pizza. A young child who has never had pizza might have no idea, so maybe I'd order a pizza with half cheese half pepperoni so they could try both. Maybe I know one kid only wants to eat cheese pizza and the other kid doesn't like pizza lately, so I put together something different for her (like a monkey platter of veggies and fruit, maybe a peanut butter sandwich). And sometimes we make our own pizza and put out a variety of toppings and everyone can choose what they want, or choose not to eat pizza at all. Maybe we make our own pizza dough and our own sauce, maybe I put out a bunch of veggies for pizza toppings and one child eats the toppings with no pizza at all. If we are at someone's house and there is no cheese pizza, I will probably help my son pick off peppers is since he doesn't like them (he used to!).Alexandra Souza Lima Polikowsky:
I love trying different foods but there is no way I will ever try all food there are in the world. Nor is anyone saying that you need to buy Twinkies for your children. buy what they like and want or want to try. Do it without calling it junk or saying that it has all this poison inside that will make them sick.Alexandra Souza Lima Polikowsky:
And after I wrote all that there is still people saying things about stockpiling twinkies!!! NO there is no need to unless your child wants it.Annie Kessler:
Are you referring to my post? I didn't read your post until after I had posted, but I wasn't saying it was necessary to stockpile twinkles. I think I was saying pretty much the same thing you were saying.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** I have no anxiety around food. ***Alexandra Souza Lima Polikowsky:
Got [it] Annie. It just was not clear at first. My kids know what Twinkies are. At least my oldest does. I have had them in the house. My husband likes them once in a while. They really do not really care about them and never asked to buy them. "Annie Kessler:
I'm not sure that I've ever even had a Twinkie. I was always more likely to choose something chocolate. So we've just never had them around. If my kids wanted them and you could still get them in stores I would have no problem buying them.Alice R:
Ok, see that is exactly what I was *trying* to ask. I was curious about what freedom with food looked like in your houses and was trying to explain what it looks like in mine. I have never stated that my kids never have these things, i even said that when we go places they are free to choose what they want from what is available, just as they are at home.Annie Kessler:
In case that was confusing, the misperception out there is that we have cupboards full of "junk" and that's all our kids eat every day. Because what kid wouldn't choose sweets (or whatever the "bad" food in mind is) over everything else if they had the option?Bettina Hepp:
I haven't read past the first 50 messages, but I wanted to suggest that the Threadstarter tries to become a better Unschooling parent in other areas before going back to that food issue. There is so much to learn, I'm learning all the time. It would be bad for you and your family if you left this list out of frustration.Sandra Dodd:
-=-Saying that this information about food is an opinion is like saying that gravity is just your personal opinion and I might not break my legs if I jump off my roof.-=-Alice R:
See, I know that is a common misconception as well. I absolutely never said that though! I said, is it ok that I have some less then wholesome food but not others? At the age my children are now, do YOU (as individuals) believe that I am doing them a disservice by not having soda and a bunch of stuff that no one here otherwise eats, just so they can try it if they want?
Here is our candy jar on top of the kitchen counter:Sarah Heiner:
Alice, you're responding in less than a minute to many of these posts. I'm reading this and I can't keep up at the rate you're replying. Slow. Down. Stop reacting. Slooow. Down.Sandra Dodd:
-=-The less pressure they feel to believe as you do, the more thoughtful consideration they'll give to your ideas.-=-Sandra Dodd:
-=-But there is a fundamental difference between some chocolate sometimes and having a stockpile in the cupboard or a box of candy canes. I am seeing the results of this in the way they act around sweets; they don't go crazy or hoard it or anything like that. -=-Tara V:
I'm not saying that I tell them they've had lucky charms, they know what they taste like and they're too expensive anyway. I'm saying, I'm not keeping them from trying something new. I'm saying that I tell them that we have a food budget, that if we buy three boxes of lucky charms then we can't afford to buy all the healthy fruits and veggies that they want in the house as well. I have a 9 year old who would insist on buying ALL lucky charms and that's all he would eat. And he would be an emotional disaster as a result of all that sugar and THAT would hurt our relationship.Alexandra Souza Lima Polikowsky:
Exactly Sandra!!!! and that is why I posted the picture to our candy Jar. and there is more candy in the cupboard and another jar in my son's room. It sits there....Sandra Dodd:
-=-Just because a car or a dangerous height is tangible to us does not make it any more or less dangerous or a game of roulette then some things people eat. To say its ok because a lot of other people eat it defies logic because we live in a society where food related health issues are epidemic.-=-Alice R:
Yes. Earlier we went outside because they wanted to go. It's very cold here, don't know in F but there is snow and its windy. Neither kid was wearing pants; or underwear now that I think about it because they believed they didn't need to. Obviously they wanted to come in quick and that was their choice too.Tara V:
Are you trying to help people see the beauty of RU? Because your sarcasm and condescension are off-putting.Tauna Grinager:
This thread has been very helpful to me, so thank you to everyone taking the time to reply. My son and I had a marathon night last night watching Phineas & Ferb; along with much rewinding for him to dance to songs he liked. Without this discussion I might have been inclined to push us towards bed. I remember not all that long ago I didn't get what he saw in that show (or many others). Food, TV, video games (all the things much maligned out there in the mainstream world)...if they appeal to your child, they're worth exploring, and it's fun for us, too. I think I'm starting to get it, and it's very freeing.Alexandra Souza Lima Polikowsky:
-=-I have a 9 year old who would insist on buying ALL lucky charms and that's all he would eat. And he would be an emotional disaster as a result of all that sugar and THAT would hurt our relationship.-=- That is because he feels limited.!!!Tara V:
lol, you don't know this kid.Gwen Montoya:
If a food budget is that tight, why not buy one box and evenly divide it at home into three bags? Or buy in bulk at Costco? Or buy the knock-off Lucky Charms brand that is cheaper? Or see if it is available at a Grocery Outlet or Dollar Store? Or wait for it to go on sale and buy several boxes.Catherine Forest:
Because he loves it and gets something out of it. Would you react the same if he would be reading all day long? And it is probably much worst because you are not at peace with him using electronics all day long. Kids feel everything.Alice R:
Tangible? Mmmmm the definition being definite and capable of being touched? That us what I meant, and I am so VERY sorry that I sullied your discussion by saying than instead of then or then instead of than. In case you are wondering, that was sarcasm. Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll asked me to be more clear and I attempted to be. It seems you would rather make me into the "them" in your view of the world. I'm fine with that because I don't think I relate to people who would rather pick apart someone's language who clearly is trying hard to communicate.Tara V:
I never said I wasn't at peace with him being on electronics all day!!! I was using that as an example of his personality type. He would drink soda all day long every day if it was in the house.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** I have a 9 year old who would insist on buying ALL lucky charms ***Sandra Dodd:
-=- I re read the entire thread last night, and I reread the section of Sandra's site.-=-Annie Kessler:
Earlier you said this: "I am responding to people who just have this stuff in their house all the time and seem to want their kids to try every weird food and have pop every day."Catherine Forest:
Tara, you don't sound at peace with "his personality". Kids can't get enough of something because it has been limited or because they are afraid of losing it or because they are really getting something out of it right now and loving it. And it is all fine. When he will have had enough Lucky Charms and know they will always be available in the house, he won't feel the need to eat them all day.Alice R:
Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll if you scroll back to before Sandra returned to the discussion, you will see a long post that is me trying to explain my motives, my thoughts, and what I was thinking when I started this discussion, that has literally had me in tears more than once at how incredibly mean people can be. (More, I am sure, then they would ever be to their children or even me in person). I would live to know what you think about what I said in that post. Thank you.Tara V:
Please tell me how I don't sound at peace with his personality? What specifically did I say that communicated that?Sandra Dodd:
-=-There is no point telling me I should not feel that way, I felt that in some responses, and responded and that's it, so can we please all just take a step back? -=-
My grown daughter, in 2020, hearing some of this, saidAlice R:
"She read it like a school kid. 'I read it. What do you mean think!?'"
Annie Kessler I was agreeing with everything you said. I was saying your house sounds just like mine.Catherine Forest:
"Guess what he does all day?" doesn't sound like you really approve of the way he chooses to spend his time.Sarah Heiner:
"I was using that as an example of his personality type"Alice R:
I did not blow through her posts, Sandra Dodd. I have not felt welcome in this discussion ever.Caren Knox:
"I am so VERY sorry that I sullied your discussion by saying than instead if then or then instead if than. In case you are wondering, that was sarcasm."Sacha Davis Alice :
- these discussions CAN be unwelcoming. They can also be informative.Alice R:
I will not delete the thread, if that is what you are suggesting. I do reread my posts. I just have trouble with the use of then and than. I forget which to use where. Ok? I don't feel that I am being understood either, so it goes both ways.Alice R:
Yeah Sacha Davis helpful stuff for sure.Tara V:
I wrote "guess what he does all day?" and followed it with a smiley face to those reading here. It's a HUGE leap to say that I speak of him and his personality with disapproval, distaste, and mocking. It's frustrating to have your words and intentions twisted into something negative. Being *aware* of his personality type does not mean I am judging his personality type. He once ate beans and cheese burritos for lunch and dinner every day for a whole entire two years. There were no limits placed on him, he was not afraid that we would take away the beans and cheese burritos. It's what he asked for and so it's what he was given. I love him just the way he is. Personally, I think he comes by it honestly, I am much the same way. I brought it up because I was wondering how one would deal with a situation where you KNOW you're dealing with a kid who would drink soda all day every day indefinitely even if all the controls around deciding what to drink were completely handed over to him. He already has some issues with cavities, he's getting his adult teeth. In an effort to allow him ALL the choice I can, should I allow him to ruin his teeth for the rest of his life? If he is allowed choice in all other areas of his life... i.e. he is allowed all the time on electronics that he wishes for, is it a total deal breaker that I don't buy him the soda he wants so that he can drink it all day every day?Alex Polikowsky:
What does he do all day. Does he do electronics? My son told me this morning that he had spent the early morning researching something about a game he likes, reading forums, learning coding so he could add coding into that game. He was in his computer but he sure was not doing electronics all day. If he was using books for his research would would consider him being on paper all day? When you really see what your child is doing you will stop seeing it as "screen time" or electronics all day!Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
Alice, try to hear this in a gentle voice. You're letting your words and emotions spill out of your fingers and onto the list. That won't help you ask the clear questions you want answers to. If you want to ask a question, write it out in a word processor. Or even long hand. Let it sit for a while. Come back and reread it so you can better hear what your words say rather than what you intend them to say. (I reread most of my posts at least 3 times before sending. Clarity is important on this list. Words are important.)Tara V:
Once again. I never said his electronics all day is a bad thing. I don't see it negatively at all.Cat Forest:
Does he like the more natural sodas like Santa Cruz or Real Brew (they make nice Root beer) that will be less harmful on the teeth. Maybe more toothbrushing?Alice R:
I did. About an hour or so I tried to start over and wrote exactly what I was trying to say, as concisely as I could (right after Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll asked me to). I just can't do it again.Alice R:
Catherine Forest!! So are you saying providing soda that is less chemical laden is ok?? That is one of my main questions.Jemma Jessup:
Sandra - I reckon it was a saveloy you ate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SaveloyCat Forest:
Well, I am saying trying to find options that the children are happy with AND that will prevent tooth decay if this is a concern. Of course, if the child does not like those sodas, it's not a good option.Alice R:
Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll I don't know how to be more clear. I wrote exactly how I have treated food and what my goals were in asking the original question.Alex Polikowsky:
Of course it is OK unless he wants Sprite and you go on to tell him how Sprite has this or that and that is bad for him and he should chose this other soda that is best for himAlice R:
Yes of course.Sandra Dodd:
-=-Are you trying to help people see the beauty of RU? Because your sarcasm and condescension are off-putting.-=-Tauna Grinager:
There is a huge difference between your son being *allowed* all the electronics he wants, and radical unschooling. We had many fits and starts with this in our house, and I thought our son was like how you describe your son, Tara V. Now I'm just starting to see it - it was my attitude and anxiety that was the problem, not my son's personality. I thought I wasn't showing my anxiety, but I was probably dumping it all over him while giving him "freedom" (Sandra's discussion about freedom helped me see why shooting for "freedom" wasn't what we needed at all). I was still using it as currency.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** I don't feel that I am being understood either ***Sandra Dodd:
-=-I have a 9 year old who would insist on buying ALL lucky charms and that's all he would eat. And he would be an emotional disaster as a result of all that sugar and THAT would hurt our relationship.-=- If you had written "If I let him, he would eat nothing but lucky charms," I would have added it to my collection:Lyla Wolfenstein:
are you actually asking if it's ok to give your children a specific food? i am confused by this - you've been hearing all about how different radical unschoolers handle food choices and preferences and exploration, and arguing with it, and yet, if someone tells you that a specific soda is ok, that will somehow give you permission? or perhaps i am misunderstanding your question. i have been keeping up with this thread as best i can, and haven't commented because annie, and joyce, and many others have said what i would have said, and said it well.Robyn Coburn:
I was right back up at the start of this thread, and just a couple of comments down I read, "If I had the answers, I would not have asked".Alice R:
Way way way earlier in the thread I asked what was wrong with providing lots of delicious but healthier alternatives to things that all kids like (chocolate, etc.) and I mean, REALLY yummy alternatives, at home now, when they are too young to know the other things exist.Gwen Montoya:
== So are you saying providing soda that is less chemical laden is ok?? That is one of my main questions. ==Tara V:
But you see, Tauna. I didn't say, "geeze". My son is doing all the things during his time on the computer that your son is doing. And I love it. I don't have anxiety around that.Sandra Dodd:
-=-Some things that people eat are a game of roulette? Casino roulette, or Russian Roulette? -=-Sandra Dodd:
Alex wrote something and left a link. Less than one minute later, someone wrote "LOL" and blew her off. This discussion is not going well, but it's because of the people who are new and asking rude questions, not because of the experienced unschoolers who are trying to help them see something that can be wonderful.Sandra Dodd:
-=-Tangible? Mmmmm the definition being definite and capable of being touched? That us what I meant,-=- A speeding car, the height of the house and gravity are all intangible then, but thanks for clarifying that it was the word you really did intend to use.Sandra Dodd:
-=-I don't think I relate to people who would rather pick apart someone's language who clearly is trying hard to communicate.-=- (Quoting Alice R from a few hours before, when I was asleep.)Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** So are you saying providing soda that is less chemical laden is ok?? ***Sarah Heiner:
"I'm asking if food and drink have some "rules" but nothing else does, is that harmful?"Robyn Coburn:
The statement "drinking soda all day will rot his teeth" is an absolute assertion.Alice R:
No I was saying those things are tangible (except maybe gravity? Gravity is tangible in how it effects objects, but you can't actually see it) whereas something that will hurt your body but is combined with a lot of other things and tastes really good is not tangible. Like, for example, if you put rat poison in a cake. The cake you can see and taste but you would not know the poison is there, yet it is no less poisonous. I thought that was the proper use of the word, but it isn't? What word would you use instead?Tara V:
This group really needs a "rules for posting" file. I didn't know it was rude to respond and then to come back to read a link. I commented in this thread hesitantly because of the sometimes rude and condescending tone I have seen taken by the "experts" here. It's hard to be receptive to input when you feel you're being talked down to.Alice R:
Sorry, that was directed at Sandra DoddSandra Dodd:
-=- if you scroll back to before Sandra returned to the discussion...-=-Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** Because I don't think anyone has addressed what I said. ***Sandra Dodd:
-=-I would live to know what you think about what I said in that post.-=-Alice R:
And Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll yes, I completely agree. I WOULD let them have a coke if they wanted it, or have a taste test or whatever else, because its fun.Alice R:
Sandra Dodd I would not have bothered if she had not asked. Maybe I misunderstood her question, but I thought that Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll wanted to know what I was trying to say and asked me to be really clear so I was. If she doesn't want to answer anymore, I'm fine with that.Tara V:
Yes Sandra, several people have misconstrued the things I have said and misused them to mean something completely different than what I was getting at despite my efforts to clarify. I wish I could say that this conversation has helped me see my way further into radical unschooling from unschooling. It has not. I have yet to hear anyone address my issue of the rude and condescending tone taken here from time to time. I have made an effort to see past that and glean some benefit from the input. If radical unschooling is so great, why not present it in a more positive light.Karen James:
-=-I do see how drinking soda all day will rot his teeth. Causing him long term harm and costing the family money.-=-Colleen Prieto:
***I was wondering how one would deal with a situation where you KNOW you're dealing with a kid who would drink soda all day every day***Sandra Dodd:
-=-I have not felt welcome in this discussion ever.-=-Elissa Jill Cleaveland:
Alice, you don't need to defend yourself. What I strongly suggest that you do is to back out of your fb app and be with your girls. They are little and need you there, fully present right now. You don't need anyone's permission for anything you choose to do while your girls are growing up. Does me saying that to you help? We have no say in what you do on a daily basis. So do what you want. If you want to have the best relationship with your kids as you can then listen to (or read the words of) all the smart, successful parents that have spent days now sharing the things that work to create successful happy families.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** I do see how drinking soda all day will rot his teeth. ***Gwen Montoya:
A thought on the soda drinking and expense - there is a thing called a Soda Stream (and probably a few other brands too) that allow you to make soda at home. They come with flavor packs (so it tastes like Coke or orange or whatever), but I bet there are also ways to make tasty soda using natural ingredients...I'm thinking juice, carbonated water, and maybe a sweetener of some kind?Sandra Dodd:
-=-I have made an effort to see past that and glean some benefit from the input. If radical unschooling is so great, why not present it in a more positive light.-=-Aiden Kathleen Wagner:
Tara V, the people who are answering your questions ARE experts. They have many years of experience, have seen what works and doesn't work, and have successfully raised their own children. Snidely putting the word in quotation marks sends a clear message that you are not interested in hearing what they have to say and are only here to say what you want and not listen. That is not the purpose of this page, I believe. I think the purpose of this page is to come and hear from experts.Sandra Dodd:
-=-This group really needs a "rules for posting" file. -=--=-Arguing and insulting "the experts" seems to be against the rules, then. -=-
We were examining the ideas, and if that felt like we were "talking down" to an individual, then that individual should probably hang back until their ideas are beneficial to many readers who want to learn more about radical unschooling.
Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** several people have misconstrued the things I have said ***Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** I am referring to a post from way earlier though, I would copy it, but can't get to a computer right now. I explained why I asked the question to begin with and clarified my motivations ***Alice R:
Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll My question has three points:Robyn Coburn:1-what unschooling food looked like in people's homes.
Finally clear questions. And they are interesting.Alice R:
Yes!! I realize that 1- has been covered. I am not a complete idiot.Robyn Coburn:
= 2.at not quite three years old, are my children losing out on not being voluntarily (by me) introduced to things like Twinkies, or Lucky Charms before they discovered them? =Alice R:If it were a beloved book, favorite movie, adored experience like a special place to visit, this would not be a question. You would feel strongly that they are losing out by not going to the place you love and feel safe in.
Thank you Robyn Coburn.Robyn Coburn:
I hit send too quick, but for easier reading I'll continue here rather than edit. (the irony is that I hit enter again so this is now going to show as edited, darn it!)Tauna Grinager:
Alice R - You're digging in your heels and fighting, rather than following Sandra's advice to read a little, watch a little, etc. Most of your posts have a tone of looking for an argument. I understand where you're coming from - I was where you are now. What I didn't do was try to argue with experienced unschoolers. Fortunately I did just as Sandra suggested - read a little, thought *a lot*, talked it out with my husband, my mom and trusted friends. Most of all, I watched my son and worked towards being more mindful of what would lead to more connection and saying yes more. Radical unschooling won't work when you're being defensive of your ideas.Marge Bartlett:
Wow. Alice R said something like "I am afraid they will get sick and I will have failed them." In 2005, my daughter was diagnosed with acute myeloid leukemia. Was that somehow MY fault? Do you think it was because of what she was allowed to eat? Are you saying that I failed her? I know that you are probably not. (Although you could be.)Sandra Dodd :
-=-Yes!! I realize that 1- has been covered. I am not a complete idiot.-=-Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** 1-what unschooling food looked like in people's homes. ***Chelsea Thurman Artisan:I'm not being flippant! Getting the ideas clear can help thinking about the ideas.*** are my children losing out on not being voluntarily (by me) introduced to things like Twinkies, or Lucky Charms before they discovered them? ***
Alice, 1 has been answered at length by many people. 2 and 3, those can be fine as long as you are getting them things they ask for, BUT thinking of the foods you choose not to buy as "poison" and "not really food" is harmful in and of itself, even if you aren't saying that aloud. This has also been said by a lot of different people in this thread in a lot of different ways!Robyn Coburn:
3-if I choose, now, at this time, to make most things like chocolate (easy, in a blender and the fridge, they help) and cookies to avoid the stuff with preservatives, and buy organic or pasture fed meat, etc. and cook with that, when I can, without saying, "this is good for you/ better than those "other" things," is that not fully unschooling?==Alan Marshall:As a question this unclear because it is open to several different interpretations.
RE: sodaJoyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** Yes!! I realize that 1- has been covered. I am not a complete idiot. ***Tara V:Alice, please see responses as feedback on how clear you're being. Why would you ask us to spend *more* time answering a question you felt had been answered? If you post a question it looks like you want an answer to it.
It's also nice if the person being helpful by giving directions doesn't talk down to or belittle the other person for being lost.Sandra Dodd:
Alice responded, to Robyn Coburn, who had just written "Finally clear questions. And they are interesting."Chelsea Thurman Artisan:
She might have been responding to me. I had accidentally hit enter when all I had in my comment was "1 has already been covered extensively," or something like that. I deleted it immediately, but she might have seen it and written that before she saw that it had been deleted, and Robyn's post showed up in the meantime.Sandra Dodd:
-=- If they love being helpful, they might take the time to give the lost person directions-=-Sandra Dodd:
Okay, Chelsea. You're kind to defend her. You and Robyn weren't the only ones who pointed out that the question had been answered. If she had actually read the links from SandraDodd.com/food, she probably wouldn't have asked the question.Sandra Dodd:
-=- It's also nice if the person being helpful by giving directions doesn't talk down to or belittle the other person for being lost.-=-
Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
Tara, there are 289 comments in this thread. That's a *Lot* of time given to Alice. No one got irritated with her first post. Not even with her 6th post. That's a *lot* of patience helping someone. When she was asked to slow down her posting because she wasn't being clear, didn't seem to be taking in what was being said, she sped up asking for more time, getting upset that *we* weren't taking enough time to dig beneath her barrage of unclear words to get at what she really wanted to ask.Lucy Banwell:
Before I started to read about radical unschooling I used to cook organic wholefoods, use only pastured meat, raw milk, etc. This worked O.K when my girls were very little. When we went out to places where there were sweets, crisps etc my girls ate *a lot* of them. When they came shopping with me and started asking for certain things some things I would buy, some things I would negotiate a compromise by buying an organic version, some things I would talk them out of (eg sweets).Robyn Coburn:
Should you tell your children what you believe?Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
If you ask your husband his opinion on something, you don't want him to tell you want to believe. You want his ideas, maybe why he believes as he does. You don't want him then being upset that you make a choice different than what he would have.Alice R:
Thank you both so much, Lucy and Robyn.
Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
Trust that people here are sincerely trying to be helpful. If they're getting testy trust that they're seeing something real that you are missing. If you don't understand and they're asking you to wait before posting, trust their judgement. Stop. Slow down. Be with your kids. Let the ideas percolate as you be with them. The confusion you're going through is common. It's *never* helped by posting more. It makes it worse. Taking a break and letting the ideas swirl about *does* help.Jenny Cyphers:
"At Christmas, someone gave them a big candy cane on a present; they hadn't had lunch but I didn't give that a second thought when they wanted to eat it. One ate the whole thing, the other ate most of hers and saved it for later."Jenny Cyphers:
Locally, food issues are probably the number one dissenting issue in unschooling. I'm not sure why it is such a BIG issue, but people get very very upset over food.Chelsea Thurman Artisan:
Kraft dinner is different from Kraft mac & cheese?!? Anyone in Canada interested in doing an exchange with me? I'm intrigued.Jo Isaac:
==I tried to find an article that I read about a year ago about a man who lived on mostly snickers bars for much of his life.== Not quite as extreme, but I ate a Mars Bar every morning for breakfast from the time I was around 7 or 8, until I was about 18 or 19. I'm still here. I've got all my own teeth. I'm healthy and happy. I still eat the odd Mars Bar :)Sandra Dodd:
I thought it was the same too, but maybe theirs was in a bigger box (a family size). How would someone in Canada know? We need someone who knows both places.Jenny Cyphers:
Kraft Dinner is different than Mac and Cheese! It has different ingredients and we have done a side by side comparison!
2020 editorial commentary:
There followed much commentary on mac'n'cheese by Kraft, on Mexican coke and the advantages of cane sugar over corn syrup in Coke including it being more Kosher at Passover, but I've left it at the forum here.
Robin 'Ehulani Bentley:
I wrote this a few hours ago, just after the Snickers bar diet was posted:Karen James:
My nephew (now 30 and 6 foot 7inches) lived on hotdogs. Not grass-fed, organic hotdogs. Regular hotdogs. People in my family commented on how incredibly limited his diet seemed. I didn't care. I was too young to care :-) Now he is a healthy, active, handsome, smart young man. Apparently hot dogs are good for you!Robin 'Ehulani Bentley:
I ate hot dogs and popsicles for years! I was healthy and happy and slim and curvy. It was only when I started messing around with diets (not just losing weight but "health" diets) that my health began to suffer. Go figure.Bryanna R:
I have read as much of the comments as I could and if this was discussed and I missed it please let me know. My kids are 5, 3 year old twins, and a 9 month old. We r trying really hard to let go of the food control. But what about the fear of the kids …See MoreRobin 'Ehulani Bentley:
See my post above ^^ about my nephew and daughter. Lots of people wouldn't call what they ate/eat "healthy" (while others would, I know).Bryanna R:
Skinny isn't the right word. I just mean healthy. I don't think it is ok for kids to be over weight and there is no reason they should be. How could being overweight for a kid be ok? It puts so many limitations on kids activity levels and can set them up for diabetes and other health issues - right? How do u get to a place where you don't worry about that?Karen James:
My son developed asthma between the ages of one and two. By the age of six he was using two different inhalers regularly and the pediatrician wanted to start him on a twice a day dose of antihistamine. I was hoping we could try to find the root of the problem, instead of manage the symptoms with medication. So, we agreed to test for allergies, and found elevated antibody levels to corn, wheat, dairy and peanuts. That was pretty much our whole diet!Robin 'Ehulani Bentley:
Here's a really good page to read about food and limits and worries and all that: http://sandradodd.com/eating/longtermBryanna R:
I will check it out! I was rereading through all of the food ones for the 4th time :). But haven't read through the eating ones yet. Thanks for the suggestion!! I REALLY want to get to the place of just letting go but my kids LOVE candy and sweets (they literally ate like 20 suckers each today . . . The 9 month old even had one). I tried to ignore it but by the time they got to the 15th one it was really getting to me!! I know it is on me - but I also worry about if they r eating to almost compete with each other versus really wanting to eat it. . . I will check out the link. Thank you!! We will get there, we will get there, we will get there!!!!Alan Marshall:
Most people who are obese or struggle with food issues were subject to food restrictions as children. It is how most people were raised. If it worked, there would be no obesity epidemic. If you are concerned about your child's weight present or future for genetic reasons, food restricrtion is not the solution, it's the problem.Bryanna R:
Alan - I agree with that I really do I am just having a hard time accepting that it is going to work for us because it hasn't yet and they eat so much candy and sweets right now.Michelle Thedaker:
==Skinny isn't the right word. I just mean healthy.==Lyla Wolfenstein:
[no longer available for streaming, 2020; synopsis]Bryanna R:
I totally respect that and know my kids will never be skinny - and I am ok with that. I could never be skinny - I just have a hard time accepting being bigger then you have to be. Isn't there something to be said to being in shape and taking care of your body? I am 5 foot 3 inches and weigh in the 150's. I played college soccer on a scholarship and spend time in the gym working out and running. I was never and will never be skinny but I strive to be in shape. And even though I don't fit the skinny model of our society I am happy with my body - when I am in shape. I am just kInd of lost on how to feel about this and how to make it work. Sorry :/. I probably just need to read more and keep workIng through it to get myself to the right place. It is crazy how hard and how much thought and rethought goes into figuring all of this out! But I totally think not will be worth it in the long run!!Lyla Wolfenstein:
what is "bigger than you have to be?" who decides? and one can be super healthy and very fit and still "bigger than you have to be" - i am 5'3" and weigh substantially more than you do. i have a second degree black belt and i am one of the healthiest people i know. in terms of "how to feel about this" in relation to one's children -i suggest trying very hard not to FEEL anything about their body type or size - feel love and acceptance of THEM and what makes them feel good and encourage and support them in those things. steer clear of scrutinizing their body or the impact of their choices on their body (or your perceptions of those impacts.) really, it's so. much. healthier. all around if you can move toward knowing that their bodies are *theirs* and you do not have sovereignty nor do you have any control over their physical beings.Michelle Thedaker:
=I just have a hard time accepting being bigger then you have to be.=Bryanna R:
Michelle Thedaker - I am glad you don't feel like I am attacking you!! That was never my intent. I have a lot of family and friends who are "bigger" and I love them and respect them! I think for me the acceptance piece may be the key for opening up our Radical Unschooling journey and getting our mindset right. I want my kids to be who they want to be and who they are - but I think I also have an issue with being to controlling (without even meaning to be!). I also think with being a parent that I feel a responsibility to guide them in the right direction and help them make the right decisions - but I see where my right decisions may not be their right decisions. Again - I just need to let go and accept it and be happy in it. Sorry for hijacking a portion of this post!! But thank you for your responses it really has helped open my eyes and I need to just keep pushing and questioning and researching and reading and trying and relaxing, etc.!Michelle Thedaker:
=but I see where my right decisions may not be their right decisions=Robin 'Ehulani Bentley:
~ but I think I also have an issue with being too controlling ~Hallie McGrath:
My parents' "guidance," and "right decisions" included many, many values and choices that were *not* right for me (focus on diet and exercise, religious beliefs, political orientation, and more). They were both image- and weight-obsessed and jumped from fad diet to exercise program to nutrition supplement and back again. over over and over.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** I totally respect that and know my kids will never be skinny - and I am ok with that. ***Alan Marshall:
Imagine that you meet someone who is clearly not taking care of herself. She doesn't eat right and you can tell that she is likely to have health problems. Would you say anything to pressure her to change? Would you go to her house and tell her what to eat and how much?
I understand that. But what about the approach of trying to help them before they get to the point where they need help? If I see a loved one making decisions that I perceive as dangerous or unhealthy I would definitely talk to them about it and make suggestions versus sitting back and just letting them make the mistake. Is that wrong?Dawn Todd:
Help them before they need help? I'd consider that interfering if someone did it to me.Alan Marshall:
Children exploring different kinds of food are not making a mistake. It's natural and it's healthy. Your daily influence and potential stressing of a child cannot compare to one conversation with an adult relative. (which itself could backfire) It's likely to do more harm than good.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** If I see a loved one making decisions that I perceive as dangerous or unhealthy I would definitely talk to them about it ... Is that wrong? ***Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
"People want to be helped toward their own goals."Robin 'Ehulani Bentley:
~ If it's dangerous or destructive, err on the side of helping! ~Alex Polikowsky:
******But what about the approach of trying to help them before they get to the point where they need help? If I see a loved one making decisions that I perceive as dangerous or unhealthy I would definitely talk to them about it and make suggestions versus sitting back and just letting them make the mistake. Is that wrong?*********Alan Marshall:
Or what if your husband told you that you should eat healthier to lose a few pounds. You know, out of love and concern. :)Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
"Do you know there are 700 calories in that piece of cheesecake? That's over a 1/3 of a body's daily calorie intake. Just thought want to know."Kris-Anne Spring:
Just had to say "thanks" for this thread, because I learned a great deal and have given so much thought to how I view food and how I want my kids to not have the food issues that I have. Love the idea of "monkey plates"....my 11 year old daughter, who is sick with a cold, is very happily eating her monkey plate right now (she's my food loving girl!).
Monkey Platters
"Plate" doesn't convey the same abundance and feast/party message. Also, they have a name.
Bryanna R:
If my husband was concerned about me or if he had an issue with something I would hope we could talk about it. And since our relationship is so open I would be fine with his comments as long as it was a discussion and not just a statement. That is what I am trying to figure out. Is it ok to say to the kids you have had 16 pieces of candy - just remember that could give you a tummy ache so you might want to slow down or safe the rest for later?? Again not accusingly but in an open and honest way?? Or do say it is good to eat a variety of foods to help your body be healthy.Gwen Montoya:
Food is something everyone needs, every day. If you, as a parent, makes your child's relationship with food stressful, unhappy, or scary...that can stick with them FOR LIFE. It can affect every aspect of how they eat, how they interact with people, and how they take care of their bodies in the future.Alex Polikowsky:
Bryanna did you see the picture of my candy jar above? My kids never had limits and do not get a tummy ache because they stop when they are satisfied.Karen James:
-=-Is it ok to say to the kids you have had 16 pieces of candy - just remember that could give you a tummy ache so you might want to slow down or safe the rest for later??-=-Sandra Dodd:
-=-Is it ok to say to the kids you have had 16 pieces of candy -=- Why were you counting?Bryanna R:
It all makes sense . . . it is just a different mind set and I think with the kids being so young it makes it harder for me to let go. I have an easier time letting go of a lot of other things - but for some reason food and bedtime are the 2 I am stuck on right now. I will keep reading, trying, rereading, trying, and then see where we are at. I might post some more on here to get more insight too! THANK YOU for all of the help and suggestions!! I REALLY appreciate it!!Sandra Dodd:
I've lost two attempts to respond to this, and I haven't read all of it but at one point Joyce used examples like alcohol and eating, as things it would be rude to point out.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
They might not get a tummy ache with 20. They might with 10. They might not at all. I think you're trying to pass off worry that their behavior is saying they have no clue what they're doing as "help".Sandra Dodd:
Trying a little and waiting and watching will give you a chance to see the effects of these ideas. Don't just read until you're sold. Let your child's improved mood and joy be where you see progress.Alan Marshall:
While reading this thread I offered my four year old daugher part of a large cookie. She said no and ate a banana. Which is only to say that you can trust that not controlling food is likely to lead to healthy, moderate eating habits. It may take some time, but it is well worth doing.Sandra Dodd:
sandradodd.com/eating/sweets has other accounts of kids being choosing all kinds of foods when sweets were offered, or sitting right there. Since early in the discussion I've been sending that link. :-) Thanks for our story, too, Alan.Gwen Montoya:
My youngest (6) likes getting a root beer when we go to Costco. Sometimes it gives her a tummy ache and sometimes it doesn't. I'll say something like "last time this gave you a tummy ache, do you still want it?" I'm not making judgements or anticipating horrible things or extrapolating that in 20 years she'll be a root beer soda junkie.Bryanna R:
Maybe it is just the fact that right now they are consuming soon much candy and we haven't hit the point where they r choosing the good stuff yet. What about the idea that they might be competing with each other and eating so much because they think their siblings will eat all of it if they don't get it now?? It is just in a big bowl for anyone to have at this point.Lyla Wolfenstein:
"Which is only to say that you can trust that not controlling food is likely to lead to healthy, moderate eating habits. It may take some time, but it is well worth doing." while this is true, it's easy to slip into looking for habits that WE think are healthy and moderate - for US. that's not necessarily what any particular child's version of healthy and moderate will look like at any given age. so, if kids are making choices that are not rooted in pressure, guilt, and fear, their choices for their own bodies will be healthy and moderate, even if they don't look like it from a standard/external perspective.Sandra Dodd -=-. What about the idea that they might be competing with each other and eating so much because they think their siblings will eat all of it if they don't get it now?? -=-
That would be evidence that what you've been doing has created paucity.
My kids had abundance and never competed with each other to eat. Not ever. You need abundance rather than paucity, and peace rather than fear. http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully Bryanna R:
Paucity - Just learned a new word :). I will have to stay aware of that. I don't think we do but maybe unknowingly.Jenny Cyphers:
Lollipops are fun! If you put a bowl out and keep refilling it, like a bottomless bowl, they WILL get tired of them. Not every lolli tastes good. Each kid may prefer a certain color or flavor. Until they feel they don't have to compete, that there will be so many they can't even begin to stuff their pockets, they won't feel like they have enough.Nallely Ea:
I wish people would try to not use the word fat around kids, at least not as a bad thing, some people are genetically bigger than others... in my family they use that word all the time, and i remember growing up thinking that everything bad that happened to me could disappear if i were skinnier.... i grew up, got very slim.. and it just didnt really make a difference.Gwen Montoya:
"we haven't hit the point where they r choosing the good stuff yet." If you are waiting for them to make choices you approve of and counting while they eat it is going to get in the way of them making free choices.Lyla Wolfenstein:
i am a big fan of using the word fat as a descriptive - not as a bad thing. i think reclaiming that word without all the "loading" is important. but i think it starts with self descriptions, not describing others who might not have consented.Jenny Cyphers:
My oldest got all round when she was 11-13. She isn't anymore. People were mean about it. She stopped swimming because another kid called her fat. She still holds that inside of her. Before that, she never saw herself as fat. She still doesn't swim and she's 18.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
*** right now they are consuming soon much candy and we haven't hit the point where they r choosing the good stuff yet. ***.Robin 'Ehulani Bentley:
~ they literally ate like 20 suckers each today ~.Lyla Wolfenstein:
i have seen this in my son even between the ages of 10 and 14 - at 10 he was still very much drawn to sweets at almost any time/for almost any occasion - now, at 14, not so much. he still loves his dessert/sweet foods, but only when he's really in the mood, which is much less often than it used to be. now, more often, he craves steak, or string cheese or something more dense nutrient wise. some of this was about deschooling, but much of it is puberty and needing a different kind of fuel.Robin 'Ehulani Bentley:
I remember thinking when Senna was little that "she's going to do this/be this way/eat only this food FOREVER." It wasn't true and it took me a while to learn to relax. Kids change and grow and learn and if we support them where they are, right now, things will go easier.Alex Polikowsky:
Some of my favorite foods now were things I did not like at all as a child !Regan Avery:
On counting food... when I go out drinking, I count my drinks so that I don't go just by the sensation of how much I've had. I was doing the same with my young son when he eats straight butter with a spoon, thinking it'd be good to keep track. That way, we'd know how much butter feels fine and how much it takes to upset his stomach. Does keeping track like this have hidden pitfalls that I haven't thought of? I was thinking it'd be a useful strategy to share with him.Alex Polikowsky:
I can easily have two glasses of wine with dinner and feel ok but only one if I am on an empty stomach. Counting is not a great way..Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
"Was doing?" As in you've done it several times?.Regan Avery:
I guess I felt like being careful with butter was akin to warning about a steep step -- kinder to protect from the bellyache, kinder to give the information that bellyache is possible. Whereas I'd not count bread or candy, since I don't think there'd be diarrhea from eating them till the sensation of fullness.Lyla Wolfenstein :
why butter in particular though? some people have a much higher likelihood of a tummy ache from bread/gluten, and find butter healing, as it supports some digestive/nutritional pathways. some might be fine with both but struggle with dairy - or nothing at all.Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll:
The step is something physical you can use to judge by. You were only guessing though about the butter.Sandra Dodd:
-=-You could let him know butter doesn't move out of his stomach as quickly as some foods.-=-Sacha Davis:
I recently found out that our taste buds change every seven years. This explains my love of mushrooms and gruyere and highlights that when it comes to food very little is actually forever.Schuyler Waynforth:
Adults have fewer tastebuds than children do. Presumably it is more evolutionarily significant to be sensitive to bitter tasting things when you are small and poison is going to rip through your system if you eat the wrong thing than when you are bigger and you can probably ride through minor poisoning.Schuyler Waynforth:
Finding that out explained lots of things about how I now like spinach, but as a child, well, I only liked it if it had been cooked in chicken stock. Something I didn't discover until a boyfriend's grandmother fixed it that way.Liz Holaday:
My daughter and I brought strips of paper treated with three chemicals whose taste is differently perceived based on genetics to a large family gathering once. We passed them around as appetizers :) It was fascinating. My brother and I, for example, have lots of nature and nurture in common, but there was one chemical in particular (it's called PTC) that he could not taste at all and I perceived as wretchedly, horribly, vile-ly bitter. I was gagging and sputtering while he sucked on his paper strip saying "what? all I taste is paper!". My brother loves bitter foods and drinks. I don't enjoy them at all; I never have, and while I've come to tolerate a few bitter things more than I once did, I don't think I'll ever really like them. I don't even like chocolate! No matter how much sugar is in it, I still taste the bitterness.