text:
Manus Island: What will it take to shock us?
The reports coming out of Manus Island right now should be enough to shock us, but they aren't. What will it take? Barrister Julian Burnside has some ideas.
Reports about what is happening on Manus Island are mixed. According to inside sources, hundreds of asylum seekers are on a hunger strike, many have sewn their lips together, and tensions are high. According to Immigration Minister Peter Dutton, security levels have been high, as a precaution, and the hunger strike and lip sewing are the result of urging by refugee advocates. There has been little apparent public concern.
Some of the hunger strikers have said they are willing to die, and want to donate their organs to Australians. The public, in its post-Christmas torpor, was unmoved. Letters sent from Manus have been published, but this has provoked outrage only in that minority of Australians who are concerned about refugees. The public remain unmoved.
In February 2014, Reza Berati was murdered inside the Manus detention facility, allegedly by members of the staff who were supposedly keeping the detainees safe. I have been informed that eyewitnesses to the murder are still being held in solitary confinement. No one has yet been brought to trial for the murder. In September 2014, Hamid Kehazaei died of septicaemia after an infected foot was inadequately treated. Nobody has been held to account for his death in what looks like significant medical negligence.
Public reaction to these things has been minimal.
There are a few facts we all know, or should know. First (and arguably the most significant fact): the asylum seekers held on Manus and in other detention centres are not "illegal". They have committed no offence by coming to Australia seeking protection.
They are held in captivity without charge and without trial, because their conduct in seeking asylum is not an offence under Australian law. The government of Australia, and parts of the media, refer to them as "illegals" because it makes locking them up look faintly respectable. When they arrive in Australia asking to be protected from persecution, Australia takes them forcibly, against their will, to Manus. There they are held in uncomfortable, unhygienic conditions in tropical heat. They wait until their claims for refugee status are determined. Some of them have been there for about two years.
It should shock us to know how comprehensively the government has lied to us about Manus. It lies to us by calling asylum seekers "illegal". It lies to us about the conditions in which they are held. Maybe it would shock us to know that the people who are being mistreated by our government (and at vast expense to the taxpayer) are just ordinary people: human beings who have the same hopes and desires, the same frailties and fears as most of us.
Second: It is very clear that, if you lock up an innocent person in circumstances where they do not know how long it will be before they are released, they fall into hopelessness and despair after about 12 or 18 months. One very well-documented response to this despair is self-harm. Typically, they will cut themselves, or sew their lips together, or try to starve themselves to death.
Third: conditions in Manus are very harsh. In October 2013, the UNHCR reported on conditions on Manus. It noted:
Overall, UNHCR was deeply troubled to observe that the current policies, operational approaches and harsh physical conditions at the [detention centre] do not comply with international standards and in particular ...constitute arbitrary and mandatory detention under international law; ...and do not provide safe and humane conditions of treatment in detention...
There is not much doubt that our treatment of asylum seekers in Manus constitutes a crime against humanity. This is a matter of legal analysis, not political rhetoric. The hard facts about the horrific conditions on Manus Island that I've outlined above may not be enough to shock us, but the one thing that really might shock us is to see Abbott, Morrison and Dutton prosecuted in the International Criminal Court for those crimes. That's a pro bono case I would gladly prosecute.
Julian Burnside AO QC is an Australian barrister and an advocate for human rights and fair treatment of refugees.
Topics: government-and-politics, immigration
Comments (728)
Comments for this story are closed.
Anastasios Manolakis:
23 Jan 2015 8:05:47am
Julian there is some damning criminal behaviour by the executive against Australian citizens as well, not just against asylum seekers in Manus island which constitutes crimes against humanity, by both Liberal and Labor governments.
It is a pity the Australian Legal system and the so called free press are so corrupt and gutless that certain crimes remain unreported.
There is overwhelming evidence Julian but alias all refuse to wake up and act.
Have you got a handle on using twitter yet? The speedo comment was interesting
23 Jan 2015 8:51:55am
The problem facing Australian society is that refugees arriving by boat are now demonised by both sides of the political divide who see it as a vote winner. How we have arrived at this point is debatable but arrive we have. I guess I am like many Australians who can't believe that we have arrived at this point and we are now content to brutalise desperate people as chips in a political card game. What the hell can we do about it. The die is cast and no major political party has the guts to try and change it.
23 Jan 2015 9:10:14am
So many people John will always no doubt want to see the politics of it rather than what is practical, like for instance we have had a very workable humanitarium stream of migration for many years being undermined by those who would use and encourage people smuggling that would eventually lead to just how many arrivals a year no one could guess at.
Refugees btw are usually housed in refugee camps where people have to fend for themselves far far more than getting the accomodation and food that detainees are offered.
It is good that we have had one party able to force another into adopting some good policies.
23 Jan 2015 1:58:57pm
Julian, some honesty please.
If you want to increase and diversify our economic migrant intake, then let's have that discussion.
But stop aiding and abetting the deliberate rort of the UN Refugee Convention. It's an unconscionable subversion of this important humanitarian law.
If you've heard as many first-hand boat people accounts as I have - and I'm sure you have - you'll know full well the vast majority of these people are in fact economic migrants, looking for a better life for themselves and their families, rather than genuine asylum seekers, fleeing genuine persecution. They may pass the low bar of assessment, but you and I both know that means nothing.
The vast majority of boat people coming to this country breach the spirit of the Convention, and you knowingly aid and abet.
Judy Bee:
23 Jan 2015 2:55:30pm
Hello AGB,
You have made some unsubstantiated claims here. You would have to be privvy to the histories of all those who claim asylum, for you to justify your 'first-hand' claim that a "vast majority are economic migrants". Sounds more like myth making.
I have heard a few second-hand accounts that identify the problem, as not one of asylum legitimacy, but as a problem of ministerial intransigence - the deliberate delaying of the assessment process.
23 Jan 2015 3:23:07pm
What proof is required to successfully claim refugee status?
In the past there was only 10% certainty required. We have let in mass killers, women beaters, people smugglers and many others. Reza's family said he was looking for a job before greatly retracting it after lawyers spoke to them. I am sure the economic migrants get great coaching in what to say.
Unless physical proof is required, with coaching anyone can pass the 10% certainty by making a verbal case.
23 Jan 2015 4:31:16pm
You see victims.
I see perpetrators.
Might explain why most of us aren't particularly 'shocked' by anything coming out of Manis.
Be passionate in your social-justice causes.
But please, stop trying to 'collectivise' them.
23 Jan 2015 4:50:41pm
It's true, I'm not privy to the person histories of all and sundry.
But I believe my sample is a fair representation of the total.
Visit Sri Lanka and Lebanon and listen to the people-smuggler spiel. It's the pull factors, not the push.
As for delays in processing, I'd argue the fault predominantly lies with asylum seeker advocates like our very own Julian.
It's they who peddle the false hope, encouraging 'applicants' to appeal decisions, etc.
23 Jan 2015 5:49:29pm
AGB, it was not a false hope. It worked. We sent back so few. All that was required was a lack of documents and coaching.
The reason the numbers increased so quickly is that the hope to get into Australia was true.
23 Jan 2015 6:04:15pm
There are 20 million refugees in the world all of who are suffering. The most costly solution is to resettle asylum seekers while the second most costly is to resettle refugees. Each person resettled would cost anything up to $2 million each in direct Dept of Immigration costs, additional health and welfare, (unemployment, mental health, public housing etc etc), then there is language training and education etc etc. then there is the opportunity cost of educated Australians supporting in general new settlers who will in general take a long time to become productive citizens. then for some there is the security cost which is very very expensive.
The most cost effective solution (which means help as many people as possible with the money available) is to support the rebuilding of countries. The worst way to help the millions in need is to resettle the lucky few causing the majority to suffer in the camps.
Burnside wants an open border policy that is any one who wants in, can come. This utopian vision is madness as no country has ever successfully implemented such a policy. Today, more than ever stricter policies on who comes here are now needed.
23 Jan 2015 7:10:22pm
True refugees do not travel as far as these ones. They seek a safe close haven hoping to return home some day. Illegal Immigrants are not welcome.
23 Jan 2015 7:10:32pm
Judy, My mother used to say "there are non so blind as those that do not want to see". Yourself and Burnside are entrenched in that camp, a camp that refuses to acknowledge that the over whelming number of boat people are not refugees But country shoppers and the convention that you both bang on about is being abused all ends up and you both know it.
The sooner this country decouples itself from this shackles of this bastardised convention the better we will be.
Take a look at what is happening in the Mediterranean with people smuggling and think how easily this would be the norm here had it not been for the current government implementing the wishes of the majority of Australians. If you think it is not the majority then challenge Bill Shorten to campaign on the reintroduction of their former 'open borders' policy at the next election. London to a brick says he won't.
23 Jan 2015 3:18:50pm
AGB-absolutely agree with your take on these so called refugees and as for Julian Burnside and his fellow bunch of manipulators of Law getting rich crying crocodile tears all the way to the compensation court-there opinions are tainted and can not be taken seriously.
23 Jan 2015 7:38:19pm
No...Julian does his refugee legal work for nothing. He has been much more personally involved than you and knows the system. It's you who is confused.
Peter Court:
23 Jan 2015 9:10:19am
JohnC you are correct that the crux is both major parties adopted these dehumanising approaches to win votes.
But the real problem is that this is because there are are a significant number of average unthinking Australians who agree with them.
I realised this back when Howard and Tampa flared up and he won the election. I was so angry at them, but its the 'silent' majority whom are really at fault. We are in fact, on average, a very racist, insular and greedy country.
Watching Peter Fitzsimons "Great Australian Race Riot" brings that home too.
True if we had real "Leadership" we may be able to overcome some of this, but we need to move the thoughts of a large number to get significant change.
Perhaps a high profile ICC case may prod enough to change their thinking and this sway the pollies too.
23 Jan 2015 9:53:18am
Peter Court: All very nice and easy for someone with no thoughts, above what is happening to a small group of people who arrive on boats.
The final straw was throwing away all identification. This ensured that murderers, terrorists, crims fleeing retribution and anyone else with a dodgy need to escape could jump on a boat to Australia for a few grand $US.
I am aware of stitching the lips from an ex worker in detention centres. They stitch them loosely so that they can eat and drink, then when the media turn up they catch the string in their tongue and pull it tight. Neat trick.
So all your post reveals is that you are another bleeding heart with no thought for anything practical, apart from the dictates of your aching heart. A cry with your mates might fix the problem, as long as they don't move in next to you.
Peter Court:
23 Jan 2015 10:26:15am
"But the real problem is that this is because there are are a significant number of average unthinking Australians who agree with them." QED
As for boat people being a significant arrival vector for terrorists and criminals .. Ha ..
Far easier to get tourist visa and fly here which is what the vast majority of "unauthorised" residents have done ..
A terrorist would be nuts to try the ultra dangerous sea voyage with many years of likely detention and statelessness as their reward..
23 Jan 2015 11:02:39am
Far easier to get tourist visa and fly here which is what the vast majority of "unauthorised" residents have done ..
But these people don't stick out their hand to say 'give me a home, educate my children, look after our medical care, give me money' since they are not in the system.
if you want a better quality of life, getting in a refugee is much easier than doing a running after flying in as a tourist since the tax payers are supporting you.
David Hill:
23 Jan 2015 1:41:10pm
the UN convention on refugees states that signatory countries must treat legitimate refugees the same as its own citizens when it comes to housing and welfare .
23 Jan 2015 4:23:38pm
well we have over 100k people homeless every night and public housing waiting lists years long.
Also we are only obligated to processs them.
23 Jan 2015 6:08:27pm
Refugees are not migrants or tourists, they are refugees from war, persecution and torture and we guaranteed to the world that we would protect and care for any of them in our territory and we promised to treat them as well as we treat our own citizens.
It's in the convention in black and frigging white, go and read it.
23 Jan 2015 7:14:05pm
So why did they travel past so many safe havens to get here in particular? That is not a refugee.
23 Jan 2015 7:40:14pm
You have been involved in advocacy for asylum seekers for almost 15 years, Marilyn. How could you possibly not know by now that refugees do not flee war. Fleeing war does not make someone a refugee. Why should we take your opinion seriously if after a decade and a half you cannot even get the basic facts right?
23 Jan 2015 11:04:44am
"A terrorist would be nuts to try the ultra dangerous sea voyage with many years of likely detention and statelessness as their reward.."
Until a year or so ago, arriving by boat would guarantee they'd get into the country. Mostly due to folk like you and Mr Burnside insisting they be allowed in. And isn't that what you're insisting right now?
Caffettierra Moka:
23 Jan 2015 11:42:59am
The Howard Government issued 13,000 Temporary Protection Visas to asylum seekers who arrived in Australia. How does that fit with your 'narrative'?
23 Jan 2015 12:17:57pm
Not sure if you're talking to me, Moka.
If you are, I'd ask if you have a point. Howard did allow boat people a pretty easy run into the country. But once again, it was due to pressure from people like Burnside and Court.
23 Jan 2015 3:26:17pm
Zing, no it wasn't boat people who were given the visas but people from camps who had been assessed as bona fide refugees. Sheesh, the Left are not strong on detail, are they?
South of Saturn:
23 Jan 2015 2:43:02pm
...where are they now?
The Concerned Citizen:
23 Jan 2015 11:23:13am
It's truly very simple:
Australians expect most of our refugee intake are Muslims from the Middle East and Africa.
Given the extremely bad publicity and thus reputation these groups have across every Western country for disproportionally high rates of crime, terrorism, starting extremist groups, and angry riots over religiously insensitive media (whether made in the country they riot in or not), or simply being hard to get along with; it's unsurprising Australians are hostile to offering refuge these days (as are a large amount of Europeans).
They WANT it to be illegal. They WANT it to be rescinded. And reminding them that these have yet to happen won't change it.
Keith Lethbridge Snr:
23 Jan 2015 1:16:09pm
G'day Citizen.
It's like Climate Change: It hasn't happened yet, but we see evidence of what might happen, & we try to avoid those consequences.
23 Jan 2015 11:56:40am
Burnside asks "what will it take to shock us?" Well the footage of people being dashed to death on the rocks of Christmas Island shocked me, and was a direct result of policies championed by Burnside himself. And therein lies the crux of the matter.
Hadrian XXII:
23 Jan 2015 12:55:35pm
Oh yeah, it's so much better to languish for a decade or more in a makeshift camp. Decent human beings aren't driven to take desperate measures - or are they?
23 Jan 2015 3:29:25pm
If you look at the history of human people - people have for thousands of years risked their lives for the 'chance' of economic wealth. Look at all the sailors who were on ships that sunk trying to trade gold and silver, the migrants who went from East to West in the US in the search for land with many being killled by Indians..they were not 'desperate' people, they were merely seeking economic opportunities for their families. Don't blame them for it but the refugee system is being rorted.
23 Jan 2015 1:59:46pm
Julian, some honesty please.
If you want to increase and diversify our economic migrant intake, then let's have that discussion.
But stop aiding and abetting the deliberate rort of the UN Refugee Convention. It's an unconscionable subversion of this important humanitarian law.
If you've heard as many first-hand boat people accounts as I have - and I'm sure you have - you'll know full well the vast majority of these people are in fact economic migrants, looking for a better life for themselves and their families, rather than genuine asylum seekers, fleeing genuine persecution. They may pass the low bar of assessment, but you and I both know that means nothing.
The vast majority of boat people coming to this country breach the spirit of the Convention, and you knowingly aid and abet.
23 Jan 2015 7:16:06pm
No that was the direct result of paying a stupid people smuggler to try sneak you into a country instead of settling in the one you waited for the boat at. How many other safe havens did those people pass by to get killed on Christmas Islands rocks?
23 Jan 2015 2:41:55pm
PC, It would appear that from you last paragraph you agree with the current policy.
23 Jan 2015 3:24:50pm
I'm not a fan of Julian's. He operates on an utopic ideal that is not sustainable or realistic. Example. He advocated a migration pipeline to Australia for those claiming to be a refugee for those who had made their way to Indonesia. This was his solution to deaths at sea. Presumably the Govt would charter flights to facilitate this. Can you imagine how many people would make their way to Indonesia to get that magic ticket to Aus?
Given that in most instances these people would ditch passports and other forms of identification, the Govt would be compelled to err on the side of provisioning an indefinite stay in Australia. Straight on to welfare. What was infuriating is that Julian and likeminded could not envisage this scheme as blowing out and the numbers would impose dreadful consequences. How can I take Julian seriously when there is no accounting for likelihood of migration blowout. Under his regime, processing would be be tantamount to rubber stamping those without ID as legitimate refugees, simply because verification of claims is impossible.
Julian's solutions are a roadmap to a nightmare.
23 Jan 2015 5:38:36pm
Silly nonsense, Peter Court.
If people fly in they arrive with passports, identity documents of one sort or another and some form of visa.
They all arrive legally.
We know who they are and we can trace them if they abscond or commit some form of illegal activity while in Australia.
DIAC statistics show that only about 4-5% of visa approved arrivals overstay their visas, and this is out of the several millions of visas issued each year. This is most commonly for genuine purposes such as illness or other inability to travel, while awaiting visa renewal or re-classification or while waiting for approval to take up residency of one sort or another, or secure approval to work.
Those that do overstay do so, on average, for a very short time and leave voluntarily and at their own cost. DIAC has no concerns about overstayers.
A terrorist would be nuts to try to enter Australia any other way than by a people smuggler's sea voyage, dangerous or not. The authorities know who is likely to be a terrorist and can take appropriate action at the airport or sea port. Those coming in on a people smuggler boat deliberately destroy passports, lie about identity and background and make every effort to deceive and frustrate the migration system. That's how terrorism thrives.
Please try to live in the real world.
Mr Burns:
23 Jan 2015 10:34:42am
Ardy, there is a lot of ancedote in your post but very little fact. Some sources for your claims please.
23 Jan 2015 10:42:01am
You think of yourself as "practical". I don't think you would find anybody more practical than a lawyer. Julian Burnside has more experience than you in what is happening on Manus. Much has been hidden from everyday Australians. Your practicality is actually very emotional if you think about it, because of all the fear you feel of having "one live next door to you".
23 Jan 2015 11:58:31am
How many of them live with Burnside?
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 4:27:38pm
You should be a debater Mike. That's gold! Of course What Mr Burnside is saying is that he recommends that we send all refugees to your place.
Clytie Siddall:
23 Jan 2015 6:28:23pm
I've had refugees living with me over the years. All good, hardworking people, despite being survivors of trauma and torture. Assets to this country. If I had a spare bedroom now, I'd offer it to a refugee without hesitation.
23 Jan 2015 7:31:17pm
If that is true then good onya Clytie! And I'm glad the refugee who carried out the recent siege in Sydney was not one of your housemates.
23 Jan 2015 7:47:35pm
Mr Burnside has housed refugees at his place for years. Including some children.
23 Jan 2015 7:46:38pm
Burnside is doing what lawyers do and are supposed to do, meredith- advocating for their clients, but it would be a mistake to take what is said or written as part of that advocacy as being, as they say, the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. A lawyer's job is not to present the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, it is to form and present the best case for their clients.
23 Jan 2015 11:13:37am
More than 90% of these assylum seekers are deemed to be genuine once they have their status verified properly. your generalisation that murderers, terrorists and criminals are making this life threatening and extremely arduous trek is a bit off the mark.
I don't care if they are stitching their lips together loosley so they can continue to eat.... THEY ARE STITCHING THEIR LIPS TOGETHER!! That in itself is concerning to me, and I am saddened to see that it doesn't move you! These people are exactly that, PEOPLE!! If your son, or daughter, or partner felt the need to stitch their own lips together (loosely or not), would you consider it to be silly attention seeking behaviour and dismiss it as not worthy of your concern?
Bleeding heart.... wow.... I hope more people's hearts bleed at the thought that we, as a nation (that includes you) condones treating human beings, fleeing their own countries, often from the threat of death/torture or from rape camps etc, by the only means they know how, with such disrepect and such evil..... Because EVIL is what this is.
Aussie Sutra:
23 Jan 2015 11:55:51am
Actually, when asylum seekers are able to be identified they are rejected at a rate of roughly 90%. During Rudd and Gillard's disastrous time, they just rubber stamped the people through. Or how, precisely, do you think they "verified" ANYTHING about the identity of people who refused to give any truthful details about their identities?
South of Saturn:
23 Jan 2015 2:46:57pm
so which actually happened, 90% approved or 90% disapproved...some real stats please.
23 Jan 2015 1:18:43pm
I stand with you on this one.
I am ashamed of this policy and how we, Australians, are treating these people and ignoring their plight.
History will judge us.
23 Jan 2015 4:27:35pm
You wouldn't be saying that if you knew history.
John Coochey:
23 Jan 2015 2:09:19pm
Under our incredibly loose assessment system they may be able to achieve refugee status but that is irrelevant. To quote from the international convention "entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory
where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of Article1, enter or
are present in "
John Coochey:
23 Jan 2015 2:56:55pm
Do you mean genuine refugees like the Somali who starred in "Go back where you came from" who came here via Romania and Germany (didn't know Somalis were being persecuted there) but had no qualms at all about going back to Somalia(where he was supposed to have been persecuted) to visit his relatives who were all hal and h hearty including his 100 year old granny?
23 Jan 2015 4:32:44pm
As people have pointed out that 90% is after an appeals process designed to rubber stamp people after appealing. One year under the Rudd government the primary acceptance rate was 38% and jumped to 95% after appeals.
Our acceptance rate was significantly higher than other country's. Just look at that great beacon of moral integrity lefties like to point to, Italy. For all the lefties wishing we were more like them do you know how many they found to be refugees in 2013-2014? 12.5%. Yeah, if only we were more like them.
23 Jan 2015 6:09:53pm
That is simply a lie. Most are accepted on primary without any courts or appeals, even on Nauru with no law it's 80%.
23 Jan 2015 11:16:29am
Ardy, still peddling this crap I see. Nobody is saying anyone should be released into the community without a clarification of their identity. Our detention policy, the one hidden in secrecy from us all by this government, has nothing to do with their identity. So to try to argue that it is is hugely misleading and erroneous.
Your comments like the comments of this government are only aimed at belittling people stuck in a situation that most of us will be lucky enough never to experience. Just think how lucky you are Ardy to come from a country which is not war torn let alone where we have a government who can imprison you without trial and torture you and murder you.
Although when we have a government who operate such detention policies in secret and where people can die without open and accountable investigation than I do wonder. Don't you even vaguely wonder what sort of democracy we have where we don't have open and accountable government. Don't you?
23 Jan 2015 11:24:43am
what harsh words! .. i would be and am happy to have asylum seekers living next door and be part of welcoming them to australia.
Aussie Sutra:
23 Jan 2015 11:56:42am
Just know that if they arrived by boat that they have regard for our laws, and are happy to take criminal action when it will profit them.
23 Jan 2015 12:06:18pm
If it's such a neat 'trick' for money maybe ardy should try it. I think it takes a great deal of 'unthinking' to believe such a feat "stitch them loosely... then catch the string and pull it tight" would be painless and 'neat'.
I think the spectrum of bleeding heart vs practicality vs cold hard selfishness has been warped in your mind, ardy. My heart isn't bleeding when I see these photos, but my conscience certainly is.
It is not that these 'stunts' are so visually shocking. Any war movie these days has violence on par or way surpassing them in 'shock value'. It is the tiny step of imagination it requires to think "WHY would someone do this" and "what would push me to sew my lips together to make a point".
This is that tiny step ardy seems to not be able to take. Get into their shoes for just a second, ardy.
The other issue I take with ardy's comments here is that they are inherently racist. "As long as they don't move in next to you"? For one, most respondents who support SOME form of integration would already have thought of the fact they would be living with these refugees in the community. So no, I don't mind.
And just how, ardy, are you to know if the non-white person moving next door to you is a 'boat person', a 'genuine refugee', visa-worker, permanent immigrant, or Australian citizen? This sort of unthinking racism marks you out as not so much practical as radical.
23 Jan 2015 12:11:45pm
Very sad the majority of people don't make themselves aware of the real nature of this disgusting pseudo religion.
This is the reason they have been getting away with the most horrific crimes ever perpetrated in the whole history of humanity.
I wonder how many aussies realise that the cities that muslims occupy today once belonged to other people, cultures and civilisations whose fate was similar to that dished out by isis.
We let them, their plan is to take our country and kill or enslave us.
If they were strong enough they would bust in and do it.
Instead they use stealth, treachery, duplicity and deceit and have been for over 1400 years.
We should all read the real history of islam, to understand them is to be disgusted.
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 4:30:35pm
Evidently, you're not disgusted. Have nice cuppa and a lie down ole mate. Your gun and uniform are in the mail.
23 Jan 2015 4:48:54pm
you've just described christianity.
Hadrian XXII:
23 Jan 2015 12:52:11pm
Christian compassion and charity died years ago!
23 Jan 2015 11:44:35am
I agree, unfortunately the dumbing down of Aus has been accomplished without resistance. "Sport" in its various forms has become god Australians do not want to think.
How dumb would a person have to be to spend all their spare time watching a sport they don't even play.
It would be like watching Home and Away.
But Australians have always been racist, insular, misogynistic and dumb. It is true we have the same standards now as when we sent boys to fight in WW1; too many of them were racist, alcoholic wife beaters but in recent times we want to be the best; always "punching above our weight" as a country whether on the sporting field or on the political world stage. We have become a fascist police state The fact is we are just a pathetic rotten and mean little nation and our priorities are wrong. We are a joke amongst mature and sophisticated nations and that is why we cling to the "good ol' USA and UK
23 Jan 2015 12:03:22pm
Oh, and as for the "good ole USA" it is the preferred choice of migrants and refugees worldwide; wonder why?
23 Jan 2015 3:33:07pm
Cheryl if Australia is such a racist fascist dumb joke of a country then why do so many so desperately try to come here to live? Why don't they all go to your "mature and sophisticated" countries instead?
23 Jan 2015 12:42:21pm
Watching the SBS show had me in tears. We can no longer show our support as they have put them out of reach of us. Howard started all this. For the life of me I have never understood and have never been answered, why we don't process them in Indonesia. It would be so much cheaper and humane. Both parties have used and abused these people enough. I would love to see them tried for their actions.
23 Jan 2015 7:37:08pm
"Why don't we process them in Indonesia", simple, we have no rights in Indonesia and I feel sure they do not want these people there just in case some end up absconding, that is definitely not what they want. Indonesia was a transit lounge for people smugglers and their customers, who by the way we're in no danger there yet they wanted more and some of the authorities there profited from it. They don't really like us that much and we have learnt the hard way they could not care less if thousands pass through their country on their way here.
If some of them get through, put out the message that they are welcome at your place and Burnsides as well, oh yes, at your expense of course.
james g:
23 Jan 2015 12:43:52pm
Australia is probably the most unique nation on the planet. Our culture is envied globally.
BUT, how do we protect this 'uniqueness' in a manner which is humane?
Bite the bullet and restrict immigration to only those applying through normal channels. Tighten up on acceptance criteria.
Make it known globally that illegal entry through ports and airports, as well as by way of boats aided by people smugglers will incur automatic return to country of birth.
No papers? Then it's Manus Island.
The initial policy initiated by Kevin Rudd made an immediate impact on the number of boats arrivals. This was made possible by a program of information throughout the region.
Done properly, there is no excuse for any unauthorised arrivals to attempt to circumvent the system. The rules are known.
The free world is facing a major threat from Muslim extremist who have infiltrated all nations.
Muslim immigrants pose a risk of uncertainty to our Christian culture simply by practising their religion. Most asylum seekers are Muslims fleeing their busted arse, corruption riddled, tribal fuelled war-torn countries.
Why should Australia be the dumping ground for the dysfunctional masses?
It's time we hardened up Australia, before we're overrun by people holding to the very beliefs we despise!
23 Jan 2015 3:33:13pm
Seeking asylum by boat IS NOT illegal. Our government has helped produce the torture and murder these people are fleeing from by involving itself in wars to support the US, as such, it is our responsibility to give these people our help, not lock them up in prison camps for years because some are too selfish to think of anyone but themselves. I am disgusted by the behaviour of our government and some of the comments beig made here. "There, but for the grace of God, go I!"
23 Jan 2015 7:44:49pm
The majority are country shoppers who have paid their travel agents to deliver them to the country of their choosing, Australia. Are we expected to believe there are no safe places between here and the Middle East and Africa, moreover, they go through or over Muslim countries to force their way into the Australia. Why, it's simple, Australians are the soft touch of Asia or used to be and they can get it all when they get here. Why the heck can't you admit it.
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:09:03pm
James, i'd love to know what parts of our culture are envied globally. Do you mean our backward attitude to education, science and health?Our cruel and illegal treatment of legal refugees? Our race riots spurred on by red-neck shock jocks? Our moronic whites yelling racial abuse on public transport at non-white Australians, our bratty and sledging sportsmen?
Or perhaps you're referring to the mythology we've built to disguise the truth.
When you stand with hand over heart to listen to our national anthem prior to another sporting display by our 'heroes', do you sing the second verse? ...For those who've come across the seas we've boundless plains to share; With courage let us all combine To advance Australia FAIR.
23 Jan 2015 6:11:18pm
'before we're overrun by people holding to the very beliefs we despise!'
Too late James, they're already in government and you already live here.
23 Jan 2015 4:38:54pm
Way to win friends mate...I'm unthinking because my thinking doesn't correlate with yours. Pretty sure that is not very bright or right.
23 Jan 2015 9:15:13am
I think it's all about the numbers and the lack of control. If there was say a steady small number of small boats, maybe one every couple of months I think it would be a non-issue. But, as we saw under Labor the number kept going up and up, and that was with off-shore detention. There are millions of refugees in the world. If you can fly to Idonesia, then get a boat to Australia, have a short period of 'processing' then be in, how many more would come ?.
People like Burnside can make his case all he likes, but as if often pointed out, he and other advocates offer no practical solution to the issue. Until they can they are all care and no responsibility.
I have done volunteer work with African refugees helping them with their English. They are the ones who wait patiently in UN Camps for years and years, and most still have family there who may or may not be able to join them. They, unsuprisingly, don't think too kindly about those who come by boat. It's not a simple issue. Burnside and co pretend it is.
23 Jan 2015 9:31:36am
Beautifully put.
Burnside and his ilk are certainly all care and no responsibility.
They wish for something to happen with no thought for the eventual consequences that may/will result.
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:10:50pm
Tell us about thought for consequences of our illegal invasions, Roxy?
23 Jan 2015 9:42:10am
I'm betting the first Australians have been wishing since 1778 that they could send boat people back to where they came from ?
It is the height of hypocrisy for anyone in Australia (even the aborigines who came from somewhere else 80000 years ago) to deny the right of anyone willing to make the sacrifice (whether life or money) to try and reach Australia.
Freddie Frog:
23 Jan 2015 9:57:44am
So you don't actually believe that Australia is a sovereign nation? And that anyone in the world should be allowed to come here, stay and become a citizen?
Yeah, that will definitely work. I can't possibly forsee any problems whatsoever.
23 Jan 2015 10:46:04am
So you want to get rid of borders world wide ?. Fine, make your case. What would happen if tomoworrow every nation dumped passports, visas, and so on. Everyone could go wherever they wanted anytime, and. How would that work out ?. Make your case. Otherwise it's just emotive ramblings.
23 Jan 2015 11:26:52am
Tony72, my thoughts. After all I am decended from boat people who risked their life to come here on what were probably leaky boats. One of them even against his will. And I have no doubt that there were a lot of people who lost their lives on their way here, many of them on the final stretch along our coast.
I am still trying to figure what is the greater risk. Stay in your war torn country and risk being imprisoned, tortured or killed. Or, risk your life travelling with the support of people smugglers to some other part of the world that may include Australia.
Even going into a refugee camp in some neighboring country is not free of risk. And it rarely gives you any future as you and your family may end up that refugee camp for decades. Many do, if not most do as we can find generations born in detention centers which are often located in countries that have their own violence.
23 Jan 2015 11:57:26am
Just a thought.
What if 100 million just decided to pack up and head to Australia?
Where would you draw the line?
And shouldn't Australia decide who comes and stays in our country?
Stuffed Olive:
23 Jan 2015 1:22:45pm
But 100 Million haven't done that RoxyR. However, every year we take in on average 200,000 economic migrants from many different countries. They are the ones who can get to a migration office. The tortured who become asylum seekers have no such access to an office. Regular economic migration never seems to enter the equation. Why?
23 Jan 2015 3:09:31pm
Why indeed, Stuffed Olive? I can't recall a single article being published on the topic of massive regular immigration. It would have to be THE significant government policy with the most significant and far-reaching effects on our daily lives and those of generations to come - economically, culturally, ecologically.
Why the silence?
Gillard announced the idea of slowing the rush towards "Big Australia" while focussing on "Sustainable Australia". But nothing eventuated and if she ever mentioned it again she stopped mentioning it very quickly.
23 Jan 2015 4:58:18pm
RoxyR, I will try to reply to your comment again seeing the last one did not get up on the DRUM.
As I said in my previous comment, HOW? How are this supposedly 100 million going to just pack up and come to Australia. And I presume you are meaning refugees here. Most of them barely have the capacity to get to the nearest country where they can end up in a refugee camp for generations. Most of them are struggling just to feed themselves and their families let alone afford to pay someone to smuggle them here.
After all we are a long way to travel compared to Europe. I think you will find in many cases whole extended families have provided funding to help one member of the family to seek asylum in a country such as Australia. So it would be impossible for them all to attempt to come here.
As I also argued if you think there are a lot of refugees around the world now, around 40 odd million and not the 100 million you mentioned. Than think about climate change and global warming. The United States Pentagon puts climate change as the greatest threat to stability around the world over this century. That is why they are saying the world needs to act on climate change and prepare for it.
23 Jan 2015 12:00:28pm
"I'm betting the first Australians have been wishing since 1778 that they could send boat people back to where they came from ?"
But, they didn't. They could have fought (hundreds of thousands vs a few hundred first fleeters, piece of cake) but instead they cowed and allowed themselves to be dispossessed and enslaved for 200 years, their culture destroyed and their self-respect shattered.
I have no intention of following that sorry example.
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:12:57pm
Yes Dean, there's no place for peace in your Australia.
Clytie Siddall:
23 Jan 2015 6:36:19pm
The First Australians did fight. They lived in small family groups. They didn't have guns. The First Fleeters were a large group with a trained, armed military corps.
23 Jan 2015 9:54:43am
I agree. Perhaps you could write an opinion piece on your experiences for the ABC to balance the lopsided pieces on the Drum website?
23 Jan 2015 10:10:54am
Julian Burnside - Here we go again, another highly paid, highly qualified talking head telling us what the problem is but can't seem to tell us what the solution is. Politicians do it incessantly, high ranking public servants ditto. Even a layman like me knows the problems, what we are paying them for is a solution!! I wish I had a job like that - millions of dollars, all care and no responsibility, i.e another head with a mouth attached.
23 Jan 2015 10:52:37am
Spot on !
"Manus Island: What will it take to shock us ?"
Well may you ask Julian .
For me , the only shock I can conceive is if refugee advocates and bleeding hearts stopped confecting lies and ridiculous exaggerations and ceased encouraging the illegal arrivals to perform to their ideological wishes ! Now that would be a shock !
23 Jan 2015 11:31:46am
Aidnuff, an interesting uninformed comment. Barristers like Julian Burns often get involved in such issues and cases Pro Bono. If you don't understand the meaning of the word go and look it up.
23 Jan 2015 11:03:39am
The issue Julian Burnside is highlighting is how refugees are treated, not how many Australia accepts or not chooses to accept. There must be a more humane way of dealing with this issue.
23 Jan 2015 11:24:17am
Again you say there 'must' be a more humane way. What is it ?. I would like to know. There are millions of refugees in the world. If we make it easy for refugees to become permanent residents many more will come, some will drown. So we just accept the drownings ?. Then we need to resettle these people, which will cost money, how much extra tax will we need to pay ?. And, what about refugees in UN Camps, do we still take people from there, or forget about them ?.
The two issues how they are treated, and how many we accept are directly linked, it is fantasy to pretend otherwise. Treat them better, more will come. To just say 'treat them better' without discussing the nitty gritty of dealing with them when they do come, is as I said, all care and no responsibility.
It's like saying 'We'll give evey Australian living in poverty a million dollars, to not do so is cruel'. That's not a solution, or a policy, it's just idealistic, simplistic nonsense.
23 Jan 2015 12:58:25pm
Not sending them to a Third World country that is hostile to them, locking them up and giving them no information as to what their future would be a good start.
It costs money to resettle the refugees sure. But it also costs money to lock them up in detention indefinitely and pay off dodgy governments in Third World countries to accept them. How can you even be sure that the policies are working in stopping boats from coming, given the government total lack of transparency?
Are you really saying we should treat refugees to come to our shores seeking asylum (that is not illegal) so badly that it would discourage other refugees to do the same? Aren't you then essentially arguing that Australia should treat them as badly or nearly as badly as the situation the refugees are escaping from to make it not worth their while?
I agree it is a difficult issue with no easy answers. I just don't buy that subjecting these people to what amounts to physical and psychological torture is necessarily any more "responsible" than opening our doors to all.
23 Jan 2015 2:45:05pm
Not beating people to death would be a start
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:14:21pm
Whogoesthere, no it's not like that at all.
23 Jan 2015 1:01:10pm
"There must be a more humane way of dealing with this issue."
There is a more humane way. Deny their application on the grounds they weren't being persecuted in Indonesia. Deport them back to Indonesia. Detention centres closed. Problem solved.
When boat people realise that arriving by boat has no benefit, they'll stop. With time, they'll also stop using Indonesia as a stepping stone - Indonesia will be overjoyed, they care less about them than we do.
Keith Lethbridge Snr:
23 Jan 2015 1:22:08pm
G'day Zing.
I agree with you old fella.
23 Jan 2015 2:51:01pm
Do you think before you reply? You quoted "There must be a more humane way of dealing with this issue." and then suggest that they are all automatically denied their application automatically.
Often these people have no identity so the Indonesian government will not take them back. I've I turned up illegally in Indonesia with no Australian passport or evidence of residency, the Indonesian would not be allowed to just send me back to Australia, even if they thought I was Australian.
The point here of course is the cost of being a civilized and progressive country. Sometimes it costs. Suck it up. I have no problems with the boat people being detained, but they should be detained humanly and if Julian is to be believed (which he shouldn't be without evidence) then it sounds like they are not being detained humanly at all. That, for a country like Australia is disgraceful.
23 Jan 2015 3:48:37pm
"Often these people have no identity so the Indonesian government will not take them back."
If migrants from Indonesia attempt to cross our border without permission, then Indonesia is obliged to take them back. If they don't, then we can take them to the international court for violating our borders.
"If I turned up illegally in Indonesia with no Australian passport or evidence of residency, the Indonesian would not be allowed to just send me back to Australia"
Completely wrong. If you arrived in any nation without permission or identity, the nation will send you back across the border to your previous location. If you refuse to identify your previous location, you'll be detained until it's identified. Most nations do this, including Indonesia.
"The point here of course is the cost of being a civilized and progressive country. Sometimes it costs. Suck it up."
You're the one complaining. Suck it up. Do everyone a favour.
23 Jan 2015 5:07:01pm
Zing, aren't you so lucky you live in Australia and don't need to seek asylum. If you were in a situation where you did need to seek asylum, who knows, you may just think different.
For all of us it is just the luck of where we we born and who we were born to. Knowing that, there is a thing called empathy that can help you to understand that not all are as lucky as you are. It can be a really useful and important thing to have, that thing called empathy. Of course there are always some who don't seem to have any understanding of what it is.
23 Jan 2015 6:13:24pm
"For all of us it is just the luck of where we were born and who we were born to."
Ah. So this isn't really about refugees at all, is it? It's about you thinking that poor people born outside our country have some fundamental entitlement to a slice of Australia's pie. It's starting to become clear now.
"there is a thing called empathy that can help you to understand that not all are as lucky as you are."
Read a dictionary lately? Empathy means you understand the feelings and motives of others. It doesn't mean you need to accept their behaviour as being correct or allowable.
23 Jan 2015 7:48:11pm
your so mean zing,,,if anyone on earth for any reason is suffering any grievance of any kind at any one time it is our duty to open up the borders go collect , house,med,pay,feed furnish,educate etc etc etc them because not living in the best country on earth makes you an automatic refugee,,don't you know its all australias fault,if only we did not exist the whole world would be a truly wonderful peacefull place full of nothing but butterflies and fairy floss and until we have true poverty here its not fair that you or I lead a happy life
23 Jan 2015 4:59:25pm
All heart there Zing, aye.
23 Jan 2015 1:23:42pm
People are not numbers, and we are not gods to decide how many can acceptably choose to risk their lives by boat. We however, are still quite capable of choosing how to torment them for their choice. Why punish people who are already low? How low will we get? What we are doing is beneath responsibility and no where near care. Unless you think our homeless should be given the same treatment of segregation and separation of family units.
And I think this idea has been around the boards, forums, politicians and now back to comments. There ARE other practical alternatives, like settling up better, more transparent processing with proper aid, and not resettling those that arrive by boat.
Yet these alternatives are simply ignored or dismissed as too expensive/impractical under the LNP without so much as a brainstorm on butcher's paper.
Anecdotal evidence of one group not liking another also isn't really enough to justify mistreatment. Especially when the issue here is conflated with circumstances.
When there is the opportunity, some people will take the risk. It is funny how we award risk-taking (often with other people's assets) in capitalism but decry them in those who would literally put everything on the line for a better life. I am not saying I agree with the choice of putting a family on a boat, but I can't honestly say I would never make that decision given the combination of terrible reality and risky opportunity.
And the central question is, if we provide people with opportunity in their nation of origin or in transit nations, would we see such a massive influx of people? And while we in the rich 'West' sit on our plunder and waste like dragons of avarice, can we really expect people not to want some of that global wealth they are cut off from? Why is the reduction in foreign aid not talked about as a contributor to the issue of forced migration? If some of our wealth was spread to poorer, unstable regions so they could create their own opportunity and prosperity would they be looking to the West for a chance to break out of poverty and war?
It is not that uncommon for the 'haves' to sit on a high horse and judge the 'have nots', but we generally feel at least a bit uncomfortable when it's pointed out to us. When it comes to asylum seekers however, it seems the kid gloves come off.
23 Jan 2015 2:40:47pm
well said
Stuffed Olive:
23 Jan 2015 9:17:10am
Agree completely JohnC. I remain appalled and sad.
23 Jan 2015 11:11:09am
So what is your solution SO I don't think let anybody who wants to come is a vote winner.
Stuffed Olive:
23 Jan 2015 12:25:18pm
I am just as appalled and sad that you and others consider the whole thing in terms of a 'vote winner'. Leaving a couple thousand people in hell holes on earth. The 'solution' ? There were a number of them prior to re-opening Nauru and Manus and the Liberals, Abbott & Co were 100% against those solutions. We don't need to go over it again and you, Evan, can cease posing the same question. (A: Morrison was your solution.)
23 Jan 2015 4:39:29pm
" Leaving a couple thousand people in hell holes on earth."
Hardly hell holes SO.
" We don't need to go over it again and you, Evan, can cease posing the same question."
Oh I think we do until you learn the only solution is the one the current government is running.
" (A: Morrison was your solution.)"
And a wonderful job he has done too.
23 Jan 2015 11:14:17am
Appalled and saddened by what?
- People smugglers not making money out of suffering
- People not dying on the journey to Australia
- People in refugee camps without the money to pay a smuggler being given the opportunity to come to Australia
Stuffed Olive:
23 Jan 2015 11:43:14am
Manus and Nauru of course. Refugee camps are a completely different thing and you don't really care about them anyway - just part of the disgusting excuses for appalling treatment of human beings. I'm 100% certain things would be different if they were all white English speaking asylum seekers. But, of course, they all have access to immigration offices, can sell their property and get a one way ticket to Australia anytime. There's 190,000 of them right now, coming from China, India, England, Ireland etc. Matthew, there are still many boatloads of people drowning on their way to another land of hope.
lone ranger:
23 Jan 2015 12:50:34pm
I'm white and English but somehow I don't feel ashamed about it. Please doctor what is wrong with me?
Stuffed Olive:
23 Jan 2015 1:25:30pm
You're not an asylum seeker lone ranger. Make sense next time.
lone ranger:
23 Jan 2015 2:49:41pm
There won't be a next time sunshine it's like talking to a brick wall
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:24:01pm
Mathew, your use of the tired and unconvincing people smugglers, drownings and economic refugees argument is eminently transparent.
The refugees understand and undertake the risk that they may drown at sea as a preference to the horrors they escape.
People smugglers, right or wrong, provide the means of escape.
Refugees give every last thing they have to escape.
Does your concern for the refugees carry on to the reception they will surely receive when they are handed back?
If you believe anything in your own post you will have answered your own question.
If you are not saddened and appalled i recommend you read more about the conditions in which these poor people find themselves. They are not animals.
23 Jan 2015 7:08:29pm
> The refugees understand and undertake the risk that they may drown at sea as a preference to the horrors they escape.
For your argument to be correct, this would suggest that Indonesia (country of departure to Australia) contains the horrors that are are worse than the risk of drowning at sea.
> Does your concern for the refugees carry on to the reception they will surely receive when they are handed back?
Genuine refugees aren't being sent back, but offered resettlement in a less attractive country (e.g. Cambodia).
> If you are not saddened and appalled i recommend you read more about the conditions in which these poor people find themselves.
What you haven't answered is why people who have the money to pay a people smuggler for a boat ride are given preference over those living in refugee camps. I totally understand that if I lived in many of these countries I would do my utmost to travel to Australia.
Personally, I think you can only take two positions:
1. Stop the boats at all costs because if you provide the slightest hope (e.g. Australian settlement for babies or unaccompanied minors) then the result will be to encourage those people to travel by boat (e.g. pregnant women and minors).
2. Offer a visa to anyone presenting at an Australian embassy and making a claim of asylum. Imposing a barrier of you you have to make it to Australia only adds further risk and cost to the person.
To suggest that being able to afford passage on a boat places a refugee in a special category is moral hypocrisy.
23 Jan 2015 11:41:42am
I agree Olive. It appears this country has learnt nothing from our White Australia policy let alone our long detention policy with Aboriginal peoples of this country and the long term problems that has left us with.
Not only this detention policies but its secrecy harms us all and especially harms our democracy. That means it harms all of us!
23 Jan 2015 12:34:31pm
That's funny Olive, you didn't seem "appalled and sad" when Labor totally lost control of the situation.
23 Jan 2015 9:20:54am
Why is it so hard to accept that both major parties reflect the majority view - on this issue they are followers not leaders.
23 Jan 2015 9:50:42am
They may be followers but they are following the wishes of the Australian people. The leadership you seek would be against their wishes. It's called democracy. Lots of leadership shown in North Korea and Iran - perhaps that's the kind of system you admire where leaders can take decisions without having to take into account the views of Australians with views of which you clearly disapprove.
23 Jan 2015 11:45:25am
Didn't they say the majority of Germany supported Hitler and the Nazi's. An unthinking majority who base their decisions in ignorance needs to be challenged and not simply follow like blindfolded sheep.
23 Jan 2015 6:57:42pm
By comparing the opinions of the Australians to people in Nazi Germany you have proven Godwin law one again- which means you lose the argument.
Anastasios Manolakis:
23 Jan 2015 9:27:47am
Vote for independent candidates JohnC: Your member of parliament should represent the electorate that has voted for them not the Liberal or Labor Party but as people have been conned into believing that if they vote in an independent the individual will have no say so vote for the major parties blindly.
Finally and most importantly, vote for independent candidates in The SENATE will make a massive difference regardless who you vote for in the House of Representatives. Never vote blindly for the major parties in the SENATE even if you vote for them in the House of Representatives, that is the only way to keep the Bastards somewhat honest.
Peter of Perth:
23 Jan 2015 10:29:11am
Yes, we are seeing how well voting for independents is working in the Senate now aren't we?
23 Jan 2015 11:15:52am
Yes POP we are.
Issues are being debated and passed or not passed on the basis of whether they are of benefit to the people as opposed to the concept of rubber stamp any old tosh dressed as legislation simply on the basis of party politics.
I would like to see a Senate totally apart from parties and always basing decisions on the greater good.
Of course this won't happen so next best thing would be some bipartisanship on issues. This may involve both major sides actually talking so I won't hold my breath.
23 Jan 2015 11:37:04am
Indeed we are Peter.
Proposed legislation is being reviewed, discussed and more often than not rejected in its initial form currently, to be then reworked or discarded outright.
That is democracy at work my friend, a far better outcome than having one party with the freedom to wave through all manner of potentially self serving policy without being subject to Senate scrutiny.
23 Jan 2015 11:49:59am
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:25:50pm
Thank your god that we are Peter.
23 Jan 2015 10:37:32am
I have been voting independent for years.
The problem with the house is one of the big two eventually get the preference...or at least its been that way in state and federal elections for the last 33 years for me.
In the 2013 senate vote, my quota bumped down 42 places to where it finally sat with a PUP. The only candidates after that were religious candidates and the big two.
Imagine going to a restaurant and being told all food is unavailable except for your 42nd menu choice. Would that be a pleasant meal?
For the house I have moved from voting independent to not voting at all.
For the senate I am starting my personal transition from voting independent to not voting. If I get another successful 42nd choice then I will join to growing chorus that just goes down to the local school and gets their name ticked off.
Peter of Melbourne:
23 Jan 2015 12:50:52pm
Imagine going to a restaurant and being told all food is unavailable except for your 42nd menu choice. Would that be a pleasant meal?
thats the UNrepresentative westminster system which australia follows.
now imagine going to a restaurant to find that the chef actually prepares meals that the customer wants! that is the direct democracy system.
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:26:52pm
You are aware, of course Peter, that the LNP got 32% of the vote?
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 6:02:02pm
OOps, i meant the Liberal party of course.
23 Jan 2015 9:36:50am
> The die is cast and no major political party has the guts to try and change it.
I would argue that nobody is prepared to answer some basic questions like:
1. What makes someone who can pay people smugglers to come to Australia more deserving of resettlement than someone in a refugee camp?
2. Should Australia limit it's refugee intake?
- If no, how do we continue to maintain the welfare state, control environmental impacts from increased population and maintain living standards with the increase in population (United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) estimates there are 45.2 million)?
- If yes, what process should Australia have in place for choosing which refugees to accept? A lottery, family reunion, most at need, points based system, or something else?
Personally, I think you can only take two positions:
1. Stop the boats at all costs because if you provide the slightest hope (e.g. Australian settlement for babies or unaccompanied minors) then the result will be to encourage those people to travel by boat (e.g. pregnant women and minors).
2. Offer a visa to anyone presenting at an Australian embassy and making a claim of asylum. Imposing a barrier of you you have to make it to Australia only adds further risk and cost to the person.
What I find is the same people complaining about Manus island are also keen supporters of the environment and sustainable population.
23 Jan 2015 11:07:12am
which is why the labor approach was working, and the numbers were going down
they said that anyone who arrives by boat will be processed overseas and NEVER set foot in Australia. They will never get the Australia pension, they will never get the Australian medicare card, they will never get put on the public housing list.
They will never go to Australian public schools.
why pay top dollar to end up in PNG ?
23 Jan 2015 11:08:44am
Your last comment is correct, and they won't more people but won't allow the dams we would need to be able to feed and water the increased population, ludicrous indeed
Keith Lethbridge Snr:
23 Jan 2015 1:32:21pm
G'day Matthew.
Your final sentence is certainly a conundrum. The Greens apparently have reference to a Population Policy hidden away somewhere, but in practical terms, it remains hidden. I would love to vote Green, but would not risk the environment & non-human species by encouraging perpetual growth of human population.
23 Jan 2015 5:05:34pm
I'm happy to answer your basic questions:
1. What makes someone who can pay people smugglers to come to Australia more deserving of resettlement than someone in a refugee camp?
Nothing. Nothing makes them less deserving either. They are fundamentally different from someone waiting a refugee camp in that we have to push them away if we refuse to let them in. That moral disconnect is why the refugee convention is structured as it is.
2. Should Australia limit it's refugee intake?
Yes, it should limit it to a number which is roughly proportional to it's share of the global economy. (1.5% or thereabouts, perhaps more) So, if there are roughly 45 million refugees Australia ought to accept roughly 675,000 immediately (although in reality probably over a couple of years) plus a similar proportion of whatever new people are displaced over time.
Australia ought then also to exert every diplomatic and public relations effort in other first world countries to get them to do the same. That would be the minimum to no longer be complete prats. If this had no effect (which I doubt, Australia is basically the worst in the developed world on this so if we can be brought round to doing our fair share anyone can) then we could think again about whether there should be a limit.
>If no, how do we continue to maintain the welfare state
1 refugee in detention costs as much as dozens on the dole. Of course the real answer is that automation is going to put so many people out of work in the near future that refugees will be irrelevant.
Environmental impacts are the same, we are screwed at present regardless of any new people and if we can change our technology sufficiently we'll be fine regardless.
>If yes, what process should Australia have in place for choosing which refugees to accept?
Family reunion certainly, as far as which families that will be being offered to you're right in that making people journey to Australia adds an additional risky step, so application points across south east Asia seem like a good idea.
23 Jan 2015 7:26:31pm
> They are fundamentally different from someone waiting a refugee camp in that we have to push them away if we refuse to let them in.
But it is clear that if you explain clearly that arriving by boat will mean that you never resettle in Australia that demand dries up very quickly, meaning that refugees don't undertake a risky boat trip to Australia.
> Australia ought to accept roughly 675,000 immediately (although in reality probably over a couple of years) plus a similar proportion of whatever new people are displaced over time.
In 2012-13, The humanitarian programme granted 20,019 places. So 30 times the number of people who would need to be supported by the welfare system.
> 1 refugee in detention costs as much as dozens on the dole.
A valid point, except the boats have stopped so zero time large number is still zero. Secondly the dole is a small component of the total cost. You also need housing, education, healthcare, community facilities, counselling services, emergency services, etc.
> Of course the real answer is that automation is going to put so many people out of work in the near future that refugees will be irrelevant.
Fair point, but it will make it even harder for refugees to become self sufficient as low skilled jobs disappear.
> Environmental impacts are the same, we are screwed at present regardless of any new people and if we can change our technology sufficiently we'll be fine regardless.
Adding 200,000 new homes and associated services won't cause an environmental impact?
> Family reunion certainly
We've seen this in the past. A family pools their resources to send a young unaccompanied minor who then brings in the family through the reunion programme. The issue with this is that it exposes that minor to significant risks of abuse.
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:29:24pm
I wonder if it was as easy as just popping down to the local Australian embassy and asking for a visa while the secret police, militia, rebels, I.S or the U.S are dropping bombs on you?
23 Jan 2015 7:12:12pm
> I wonder if it was as easy as just popping down to the local Australian embassy and asking for a visa while the secret police, militia, rebels, I.S or the U.S are dropping bombs on you?
I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too hard to visit an Australian embassy in Pakistan, Indonesia or Malaysia with significantly less risk than the boat trip to Indonesia.
Freddie Frog:
23 Jan 2015 9:55:22am
I too am shocked. Shocked that some people continue to promote an open border policy.
A policy where those who have the means to travel through multiple countries and hop on a boat to Australia get preferential treatment over those who are stuck in overseas refugee camps unable to escape and with no hope.
Why do you think that relatively well off people who have escaped immediate persecution should get our priority and preferential treatment for resettlement whilst those languishing in overseas camps should never receive our help?
Peter of Melbourne:
23 Jan 2015 11:29:27am
A policy where those who have the means to travel through multiple countries and hop on a boat to Australia get preferential treatment over those who are stuck in overseas refugee camps unable to escape and with no hope.
i'm not shocked frog and i really couldnt give a damn about those of the 3rd world who have allowed their societies to stagnate until those same societies collapse causing them to all flee the discord.
shut our borders to all but those who have skillsets we require for the coming century, that does not include those with basketweaving or other such skills.
it is not the role of this nation to save the unwashed, uneducated billions from their own failures or that of their governments.
23 Jan 2015 4:55:28pm
POP, they travel through these other countries because they are not signatories of the refugee convention and would treat the refugees almost as bad as they were treated in their country of origin. What would you be willing to do if you and your family were in danger of being tortured, raped and/or murdered by your government? I assume you would not just sit there and wait for it to happen? you would do anything to save your family, yes, even get on a leaky boat, because to drown at sea would be preferable to the fate that would befall you in your own country! So many people have tunnel vision and a selfish me, me, me attitude instead of being grateful for what we have. You have no concept of what it is like to live under such a regime as these people do, but wait long enough and you will, the LNP government are intent on taking us down that path. If they can torture refugees who have been found guilty of no crime, and who , in many cases, have found to be genuine, in a prison camp, then you just may well be next! Don't think it can't happen, because it can!
23 Jan 2015 4:57:40pm
POP, "There, but for the grace of God go I"! We here in Australia are fast traveling down the slippery slope to third world status!
23 Jan 2015 5:07:49pm
It's times like this I find myself wishing there really was a God so he could give us the old Sodom treatment.
23 Jan 2015 11:20:07am
There has always been one political Party with the guts to try to change our present abuses of asylum seekers... but too often the Greens are derided and cast as "loony leftie whingers".
The Greens hold den accuracy dear, but hold human rights and dignity much higher. I believe they have always told the truth... or if truth has been hidden as in the last 18 months has tried to uncover and report the truth.
The Truth is often told in the media... but gets drowned out by those who support human rights abuses as a means of "Stop The Boats"! so what one remembers is not the Truth but the "Loony Rightist whingers" howls of calling people "Liars".
Its well beyond time we recognised the truth and stopped being silent and stopped believing the lies.
Peter of Melbourne:
23 Jan 2015 11:40:13am
i havent seen any abuse of countryshoppers, hell i have seen freely available footage of such scumbags putting the lives of australian customs and navy personnel at risk.
confected outrage to appease worthless little loony left egos is still confected outrage no matter how you want to dress it up.
23 Jan 2015 11:52:32am
The Greens supported the drowning of over 1200 people that we know about. Human rights??
23 Jan 2015 12:12:14pm
If you care to look at the Greens policies AF, you would find that the Greens plan would avoid any such loss of life and treat asylum seekers in such a manner that their claims are processed quickly and fairly.
You might say... "ah but... would would then have an influx of asylum seekers due to open borders" but this would remain little in comparison to the numbers of asylum seekers around the globe. We are not a magnet attractive vast numbers. Our intake is minuscule compared to Europe, Asia, America etc etc... we only get a few thousand while Greece and Italy get several hundred thousand per year.
23 Jan 2015 12:50:37pm
Green flags would light up on all the asylum seeker websites around the world if we adopted the Greens Policy. Such a policy would open the flood gates making a migration program controlled by Australia impossible.
23 Jan 2015 1:20:14pm
ScottBE. The outcome of your suggestion is painfully clear.
1. The number of asylum seekers will skyrocket.
2. Admin costs will increase.
3. People will flood to Indonesia to apply for passage to Australia.
4. Not everyone will get accepted.
5. Those people who aren't accepted or can't wait will resort to boats.
6. Some of those boats will sink.
So we end in exactly the same situation. Except now we're *paying* for unwanted migrants to come here and the problem is even worse. All cost and no benefit. Back to the drawing board.
Greece and Italy is fine with illegal immigrants, because most move on to other areas of Europe. We might only get a fraction, but that fraction is here to stay once they settle here - we can't palm them off like the Italians do.
23 Jan 2015 6:51:33pm
You say it's all cost. What maths have you done to back that up? There are many ex-refugees in Australia at present that are boosting the economy, creating wealth and jobs... you know, all those things we pay the government to do and then accept their lies when they do the opposite.
23 Jan 2015 7:16:48pm
Very wrong I'm afraid despite the report of Italy telling French speakers France is that way. Both Italy and Greece are being overwhelmed by numbers and have requested EU assistance to cope. There are very real tensions in both countries due to illegals.
23 Jan 2015 2:36:49pm
So, you are saying we have to cap our intake at 'a few thousand'. What happens then??
23 Jan 2015 7:08:50pm
Refugees do not travel half way around the world past many safe havens to get to Australia. That is called illegal immigration. A true refugee seeks the closest safe refuge to take in the hope they can someday return home. See the difference yet?
23 Jan 2015 7:34:00pm
Not to vote for them, and tell them why.
23 Jan 2015 12:20:50pm
Another sanctimonious spray from a self-serving lawyer. In my own, regrettably first-hand, experience, lawyers do nothing for nothing, and even work that is ostensibly pro-bono feeds a lawyer's reputation and further inflates their earning capacity. Mister Burnside's highly emotive and accusatory rant fails to address the legal issues as much as the emotional, otherwise he would have made reference to the following facts: these poor, innocent lambs (the client) embarked for Australia from a first country they flew into, as often as not, equipped with the requisite documentation. Furthermore, having set sail for Australia, all proof of identity was ditched overboard making reliable identification almost impossible. This is how Captain Emad, the infamous people smuggler, and his odious family, were able to enter the country and settle in Canberra, so Emad could expand his vile business. Tens of thousands of genuine refugees and asylum seekers, most equipped with the necessary documents, are languishing in camps worldwide while Burnside's clients attempt to gain entry by emotional blackmail. They stay, we pay- Burnside and other lawyers like him would be more than happy to feather their own nests at the country's lasting expense. And individuals from cultures with no concept of organ donation suddenly offering theirs? Which cunning advocate put that idea into their heads?
23 Jan 2015 8:10:54am
Q. What will it take to shock us?
A. How about some honest reporting?
I think I think:
23 Jan 2015 8:25:26am
Don't expect that from this no-news-is-good-news bunch of clowns in charge. People are still dying at sea, the boats are still coming.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 9:02:13am
People are still dying at sea. The boats are still coming. Do tell us more...
23 Jan 2015 5:52:51pm
Gardner, when did the last boat sink?
The Indonesian media is not controlled by Australia nor is the Indonesian government that is against the turn back policy.
The ALP is quick to jump the gun in defence of asylum seekers yet has found no story.
The death at sea has stopped. Although it is interesting how you didnt care about it happening under the ALP and pretend it is happening under the Liberals.
23 Jan 2015 9:05:50am
And you know that?, how?, or just thinking about it are you?
I think I think:
23 Jan 2015 7:24:16pm
The UNHCR regularly reports these statistics. Who would have thought you could get a second opinion when our government tries to treat us like mushrooms, hey? You should try it.
23 Jan 2015 9:12:00am
Oz gets the news of horrors of Boko Haram and ISIS loud and clear.
What happens/happened on Dutton/Morrisons' watch belongs to the secret on water matters, and Australians hear only drips and drabs, but never the full story. Most Australians seem to be content with that, this way they can keep the illusions that they are better folk, more humane than they really are...
23 Jan 2015 9:40:39am
Where is you proof of that?
I think you don't think.
Peter of Melbourne:
23 Jan 2015 11:53:29am
alfie it is more than clear that it is the considered opinion of the worthless ultra left wing who infest these forums that their "opinions" are fact!
dont even bother asking for any kind of proof to back up their wild claims as it is impossible for them to furnish it.
South of Saturn:
23 Jan 2015 4:46:40pm
...because the gummint censors all news on it!
23 Jan 2015 5:55:07pm
I know
And all that news in Indonesia
And completely controls all public servants who never leak information to any media
And completely controls all the families whos loved ones have gone missing from posting this on the internet
Plus any Australians who may see a body washed up on shore, the Indonesians too
Plus all the people smugglers from saying that their boat disappeared in any form
Does the Left believe the Liberals are some kind of supernatural power?
Its the only explanation that could justify the belief.
23 Jan 2015 6:53:44pm
Back atchya Pete.
I think I think:
23 Jan 2015 7:31:52pm
UNHCR has some excellent stats Alfie. Unlike people in your position, I don't stop thinking when a problem is shuffled under the carpet.
23 Jan 2015 10:10:22am
People are still dying at sea off the coast of Italy where the weak insipid Italians do not have the fortitude to stop them. Thankfully we have stopped that trade in Australia and it will only return if nasty progressives like Burnside get their way. They prefer to look compassionate then worry about the consequences of their actions, being of course 1200 deaths at sea.
23 Jan 2015 11:05:37am
You're right, Denny. We could stop the boats simply by sending our own ships to Indonesia and transporting the refugees here ourselves. Well, there goes your "we have to stop people drowning at sea" defence. Next!
Peter of Perth:
23 Jan 2015 12:03:22pm
splod- That is a 'solution'? How many ships do you think we would need and as has been asked a million times without answer is, 'exactly how many refugees do you think Australia can absorb'?
The truth is that the instant there is no disincentive, they will start coming in ever increasing numbers until we are totally swamped and then what? Once the flood starts, how would you stop it once you wake up that you have made the biggest mistake in history?
Hank Moody:
23 Jan 2015 8:28:02am
Vacuous as always, Mr Ravensclaw.
Would you care to provide something a little more substantial than that?
Paul Taylor:
23 Jan 2015 8:38:33am
Maybe, 3 large ships destined for ship graveyards in India being diverted to Australia by the Mafia and other people smuggler groups working in collaboration, but this time filled with thousands of refugees....just like what is happening in the Mediterranean now where the crew abandon ship in advance of interception but fuelled and set on a course for the Australian coast. Ships spread out over 1,000 km of coastline!
Luke Weyland:
23 Jan 2015 8:58:51am
Criminals, such as drug traffickers, arrive and depart Australia on valid visas on commercial aircraft. They do not arrive on leaking fishing boats.
At least one arrived as a ten pound Pom on a ship from England in 1960. (Anthony Abbott)
23 Jan 2015 9:14:17am
That could well be a future step taken by people smugglers Paul, some using them already having claimed they have been shown pictures of cruise liners being the boat to Australia they would be put on and then some Sri Lankans have been under the belief they would get a small fortune in their standards for just getting here and so the fight against people smuggling will likely be needed to be as long as that endless piece of string.
the yank:
23 Jan 2015 9:10:17am
How can anyone report with honesty when the government hides what they do?
Abbott promised a transparent government. What he delivered was anything but.
23 Jan 2015 9:13:22am
I'm a little shocked that it's been so long since the last Drum article from an illegal immigration advocate. They used to be almost daily, perhaps the hard-left has found too many other issues to be outraged over.
The Other John:
23 Jan 2015 10:43:32am
WEB = Well Earned Break.
Mr Burnside no doubt has numerous beach and holiday abodes to be enjoyed at taxpayer expense, so you will understand the hiatus in his work between November and February each year.
the yank:
23 Jan 2015 12:03:59pm
"illegal immigration" ... they are not illegal. There is nothing illegal about seeking asylum.
At what point are you going to recognise that fact?
23 Jan 2015 12:50:43pm
The problem is Yank that it is in fact a fact. The 'right wing' zealots would not recognise a fact if it smacked them in the face.
I am not shocked by what is happening on Manus. It was and is entirely predictable behaviour and as such even more an indictment on us all as Australians. This whole mess, and it is a horrible mess, could be sorted by removing the political point scoring and truly look at it in a non partisan way. Unfortunately the last person to try this was Julia Gillard and she was gazumped by those that see everything as a political game. It was turned into an utterly ridiculous drama that saw those without compassion acting out in parliament as if they were playing a role in a Shakespearian tragedy, complete with crocodile tears and feigned 'heartfelt' emotional diatribe.
I blame Howard for starting this crap and every member of the LNP for not standing up for what is right as well as every member of the Labor Party that put it in the too hard basket and followed the LNP's lead. On this matter they all disgust me.
23 Jan 2015 2:33:55pm
I recognise the fact that would-be illegal immigrants were exploiting Australia's naive refugee laws and using them as a path to permanent residency. Like the much-eulogised Iranian architect, who applied for a skilled migration visa, was rejected, and tried for the refugee option instead.
23 Jan 2015 2:34:05pm
'There is nothing illegal about seeking asylum'. Yes, and they are being processed for settlement in another country if they are found to be genuine after being saved, housed and fed. At what point are you going to recognise this fact? So tell me, what exactly is your problem?
23 Jan 2015 6:41:32pm
They are not being processed. That is one of the major breaches of their human rights.
23 Jan 2015 4:57:42pm
Seeking asylum is not illegal, but coming to this country without a valid Visa is illegal!
23 Jan 2015 11:35:57am
"A. How about some honest reporting?"
A bit hard to report honestly or otherwise when the facts are kept hidden.
23 Jan 2015 5:50:49pm
I wonder what the count is now for articles upset about people in detention under the Liberals when decreasing as opposed to under Labor whilst increasing.
I wonder how many articles we have had against detention. I know the number in favor of it is zero. Such thought is not allowed at Australian universities.
23 Jan 2015 6:40:50pm
How do you know it is decreasing? Because Scott Morrison / Peter Dutton said so?
lord stockton:
23 Jan 2015 8:11:43am
WHat will it take to shock us. ?
How about these illegal que jumpers going back from where they came & joining the refugee lists like honest normal people do
I think I think:
23 Jan 2015 8:26:00am
What lists?
Refugee Levy:
23 Jan 2015 9:09:05am
Try the UNHCR website for more info on countries and centres where refugees can apply for asylum:
"UNHCR staff operate in some 125 countries around the world, from major capitals to remote, difficult locations where our field staff are directly helping the most vulnerable victims of displacement. We maintain offices in donor countries worldwide and wherever refugees are arriving, working closely with governments to ensure the 1951 Refugee Convention is honoured."
There are a huge number of displaced people these days.
There are costs associated with helping these people.
If you, I think I think, think that Australia should be doing more then we need a public debate about how to fund it.
My suggestion is a Medicare style levy, a Refugee Levy, levied on say income over the average income ($70k).
Work out how many refugees we need to fund based on accelerating flow rates if need be;
and how much income in the Aus tax base exists >$70k/yr;
then tax it.
A Refugee Levy will be pre-deductions so some taxpayers will need advance notice of about one year so they can sell down some investments.
If pro-open borders for refugees advocates are serious, they would agree in principle with something like the suggestion above.
Happy to hear other ideas as to how to fix this problem, it really needs fixing.
Sorting the violence in source countries would be the ideal, but cannot see that happening anytime soon.
July Rose:
23 Jan 2015 9:28:55am
The fact that people are "processed in the order that applications are received" creates a list and/or queue. It is the same queue that migrants are in. Except people, like my husband who can't travel, work above a certain $ threshold, claim benefits, study, buy property, move states, put down roots but who receive the same discrimination etc and who have been in the queue for 7 years because applications are processed in the order that they are received don't sew their lips together or starve themselves. He PAID for this treatment. And the cost of this "paying" has just doubled - not because they Australian government spends anymore than 2 hours looking at the paperwork. It because they don't recoup costs on refugees and asylum seekers who arrive by boat unexpected. Happy to have them live among us after they have paid the same amount. My husband is up to $40,000 - so that's 2 years free service cleaning toilets. Looking forward to it.
23 Jan 2015 1:30:06pm
July Rose, I am in no way having a go at you for you and your husbands plight and I really do hope you are successful in your endeavours but please consider the fact that voluntary immigration for all sorts of reasons and seeking asylum because you have no real choice, because you and your family are being persecuted and live in constant fear, are two entirely different circumstances. Hope you get a good outcome but please don't blame the victims of persecution for the penny pinching meanness of governments. After all they have plenty of money to lock people up and store them in over sea's prisons.
list finder:
23 Jan 2015 9:29:52am
Need a list, go to the UNHCR website.
I think they operate in about 125 countries.
23 Jan 2015 8:39:40am
Great idea sir. Why don't you tell us where these queues are located? Then the ruffians can form an orderly queue like those good honest Britishers, who come over on tourist visas and don't bother going home.
And another point - jumping a queue that doesn't exist isn't illegal either.
23 Jan 2015 9:21:24am
Blue: The queues are located in refugee camps. The asylum seeker makes application for resettlement to the UNHCR which processes the application. This deems whether someone has a priority status or not. Resettlement countries choose from this list of priority applicants.
23 Jan 2015 9:24:15am
Just because people in refugee camps are not given a number, it being up to choice as to applications to be made for resettlement does not mean that more people will not be applying than what there are places for, hence a wait if not in your queue and an indefinite wait at that for Australia will never be able to resettle all that would wish for it, especially with global population increases.
People overstaying visas are another issue and they will be apprehended as immigration department people can be alerted to their whereabouts.
Illegality aside, it is up to our government whether they want to accept or encourage use of people smugglers or do something about it.
23 Jan 2015 9:44:26am
A great many of those who come here legally are on the official UNHCR list. Those who take boats are taking away the chance for those who have waited patiently in UNHCR camps for long periods of time. No doubt some of them would take boats if they had the money people smugglers demand. It always strikes me as odd that these people escaping "persecution seem to have plenty of money to pay their passage and conveniently "lose" their papers once in Indonesia.
23 Jan 2015 5:10:41pm
Bev, they may be on UNHCR lists but for many that can mean little. After people have been on them for decades and generations they kind of lose faith in such lists. And I can't blame them.
July Rose:
23 Jan 2015 9:59:07am
As above. Applications in Australia are processed in the order they are received, except some people pay and some don't. Some peoples pay before they even enter the queue (all migrants) and are not guaranteed an outcome or a flight home. Queue jumpers are the ones that enter the line without paying AND have their application processed sooner because we have a mandate to get people out of detention within 36 months.
23 Jan 2015 11:10:30am
you're right - there are no queues because undeserving economic refugees have been exhausting our intake quota for years
23 Jan 2015 11:20:06am
"Great idea sir. Why don't you tell us where these queues are located?"
Every refugee camp around the world is part of the queue.
23 Jan 2015 9:11:44am
Where are these queues and lists you talk of Stocky, how do you know that those seeking asylum are not honest normal people. You do know there are 42 million people in the world displaced and seeking refuge somewhere. The amount coming to Australia and seeking refuge is how many?
Waterloo Sunset 2016dd:
23 Jan 2015 9:45:01am
Well, without any orderly border protection, 42 million.
Does that answer your question?
23 Jan 2015 9:57:20am
WS what a silly answer. Europe has more people most days seeking asylum than Australia does historically in a year. It seems to me that recent arrivals make the most noise on this.
Aussie Sutra:
23 Jan 2015 12:17:15pm
A good number going into Europe right now are choosing Europe because Australia has made it too hard. So quite a large number are the SAME people we would be getting. There are demonstrations in the streets of some European nations now because the people there are having their lives destroyed by the massive influx of asylum seekers.
23 Jan 2015 3:01:38pm
Most those seeking refuge in Europe wouldn't even know where Australia was. Keep the fiction up AS
Keith Lethbridge Snr:
23 Jan 2015 10:06:31am
G'day Algernon.
If there are 42 million people seeking refuge, then 42 million would like to come to Australia. I haven't heard of anyone seeking refuge but not willing to come to Australia.
Historically, Australia has supported around one million people. In recent years, using technology, trade, mining, depletion of forests, rivers & the habitats of other species, we've ramped that up to 23 million. In doing so, we've risked global warming, erosion, the spread of salt & the extinction of many native species.
Some people reckon another 42 million people would improve our situation. Others say we were better off with just the one million, & they bitterly regret & resent the recent increase to 23 million.
It depends on your point of view.
23 Jan 2015 11:56:58am
I agree Cobber.
I must admit though that I feel bitterly sorry for refugees all the world over and would really hope someone would take me in if I needed it.
However, there are so many these days that the question remains, where do we put them.
Perhaps if Australia had been settled and grown in a more resource sustainable way then we could of been in a position to help these people in a sensible way.
But this is not how it is unfortunately.
Allowing thousands and thousands in and dumping them all on welfare in Sydney is a terrible plan.
What we do now is also a terrible plan.
All I can add is that we'd better work out something soon because this problem is going to get worse.
We'd better work out how to build our nation in a more regenerative way too otherwise the future for us looks grim.
Poverty and War have the root causes in failed environments and resource depletion and that is where Australia is heading also.
I think that should be the focus of our whole planet if ever we wish to grow up further.
23 Jan 2015 5:14:25pm
The thing is, you could rearrange those numbers a little and replace the word 'Australia' with 'the world.'
Getting people out of danger from their fellow humans doesn't really have a lot to do with the fact that environment is screwed. Refugees aren't the reason we're not going to fix things.
Truthful Tony:
23 Jan 2015 9:59:57am
ahhh yes...fallen for the spin like a good non-thinker, hook line and sinker.
23 Jan 2015 8:11:52am
"Manus constitutes a crime against humanity"
For Pete's sake!...what overblown hyperbole.
Boko Harem slaughtering thousands is a crime against humanity. ISIS enslaving young girls for sex and servitude is a crime against humanity. Atrocities committed in the name of Islam are crimes against humanity.
Detainees are on Manus because they sought a migration outcome, without following the rules of our country. They sought to circumvent the refugee resettlement conventions practised in Australia, and find themselves on Manus as a result.
They have been offered resettlement in third countries, but are being primed by the refugee lobby to agitate until they hope they will be offered the outcome they want...a life of welfare in Australia.
To claim that detaining illegal migrants on Manus is a crime against humanity, is offensive to those who are victims of real crimes against humanity.
Tone down the rhetoric.
Hank Moody:
23 Jan 2015 8:34:57am
If the people on Manus were white and Christian would you change your mind?
23 Jan 2015 9:07:52am
I would be and I am sure many others would be as well if they were Christians. No extreme beliefs in any religion would be better, maybe better still no belief in any religion but just a wish to fit in, live in peace with others and integrate with everyone would be the best.
23 Jan 2015 9:47:16am
What has that got to do with it? These people tried to get here by illegal means and I would suggest that if we had a flood of white people from Eastern Europe (hypothetical) the attitudes would be the same.
23 Jan 2015 1:54:32pm
So your attitude to the white, Christian, Central and Eastern European refugees and asylum seekers arriving in Australia in the 1950s would be same as to these arriving now?
23 Jan 2015 5:06:36pm
It is NOT illegal to seek asylum!
23 Jan 2015 10:01:29am
No I would not change my mind...not if they came illegally.
To attribute a racist tone to my post is dishonest and disingenious
Hank Moody:
23 Jan 2015 10:35:57am
It was a legitimate question. Don't run and hide behind smear.
23 Jan 2015 4:20:13pm
Yes, but he blew away your argument in 12 words.
23 Jan 2015 5:18:38pm
Actually, he blew the argument away with one word. The rest was window dressing.
23 Jan 2015 5:07:19pm
It is not illegal to seek asylum by any means!
23 Jan 2015 5:17:28pm
Hank. There were two answers to your question. One of those answers would imply racism.
The fact you asked the question means you were entertaining the possibility that Al was a racist. Ergo, asking the question was offensive and an attempted smear.
MimB :
23 Jan 2015 5:54:30pm
They are NOT arriving illegally - to seek asylum is a human right!
Get your facts right.
23 Jan 2015 11:21:18am
Couldn't care less if they are white.
I live next to white people living in a housing commission home, they are disruptive and a bunch of a-holes.
The Sudanese people living across the road, great folks. They also have jobs compared to the other neighbour, they don't take this country for granted.
We offer people who come here by boat to settle in countries other then AUS. If their country of origin is so horrible wouldn't they jump at a change to live anywhere else?
I would prefer the people in refugee camps get preference then people coming here by boat.
But what to I know I'm just a psychopath who looks at things with logic and reason and not emotion.
23 Jan 2015 5:10:34pm
Not if the country they are being sent to is just as bad as the one they fled from, which seems to be the case! Bigotry, threats of rape, murder and bashings seem to be very common in the countries the government are bribing to take these unfortunate people. They must be wishing that they had drowned at sea when they have nothing but cruelty around them!
The Concerned Citizen:
23 Jan 2015 11:37:55am
I think if they were still mostly Vietnamese or Cambodian, people would change their mind.
23 Jan 2015 8:41:36am
You know there can be more than one crime against humanity, right? And that they don't all have to be as bad as the Serbian/Bosnian war and stuff?
If its a CRIME, and you perpetrate it against a number of people in a systematic way, it is a crime against humanity.
23 Jan 2015 9:53:22am
So please detail what crime against humanity has the government committed. These people are well fed the facilities are not a concentration camp (despite what some say). They are free to leave and be resettled in Papua (perhaps not their first choice) but they are throwing hissy fits because they cannot settle in Australia. I have news for you a lot of non refugees apply to settle here and get knocked back is that a CRIME too.
23 Jan 2015 4:11:33pm
Julian Burnside is a crime against common sense and whats good for our country.
23 Jan 2015 5:12:26pm
I take it you have personally visited the camps, Bev, and witnessed for yourself this "excellent" care? No, I thought not!
23 Jan 2015 5:39:30pm
Have you or are you just going on what the people who want to open the floodgates say?
Reinhard :
23 Jan 2015 7:27:37pm
"So please detail what crime against humanity has the government committed."
Criminal negligence and responsibility for the deaths of two Iranian detianees, Reza Berati (who died in the riot) and Hamid Kehazaei (who died of septicemia from a simple cut)
We have a duty of care...
23 Jan 2015 8:52:17am
A crime against humanity is just that and within this category some crimes will be more shocking than others, as with other criminal acts. As Julian Burnside points out, these people have done nothing illegal. If you want to argue that treatment is justified because they are exploiting a loophole in trying to come to Australia as asylum seekers rather than as normal immigrants, would you be happy then for all those who exploit loopholes in our tax system to ship huge profits offshore, to be rounded up and put in detention under similar conditions? Because you don't like what someone is doing and the impact on our way of life, it doesn't mean we can treat these people in inhumane ways.
23 Jan 2015 9:02:16am
What does ISIS have to do with Manus? What possible logical connection is there, other than some are Muslims. (Which is in fact not a connection anway).There are also Christian refugees/transferees on Manus- are they ISIS also?
23 Jan 2015 9:10:06am
Good one, al. Crimes against humanity are what nasty people in other countries do. "Look over there. You've stopped me for speeding, officer, but those guys are going much faster than I was. Why don't you spend your time catching real crims, and leave innocent people like me alone?" Sorry, mate! Pointing to worse atrocities than ours doesn't minimise or wipe out the crimes that are being committed in our name.
23 Jan 2015 9:14:22am
Except that if you come by plane as a refugee then you are processed normally. These people came by boat and are punished. The former you never hear about even though they make up more than half the refugee applications, the latter are chucked in prison.
The original point of offshore processing was to dissuade people coming by boat. That stuff hardly rates a mention now, it is all about queue jumpers. Never mind that 200,000 people migrate to Australia each year, many of them paying their way into the country by doing study. Apparently if you can part with $100,000 you are a 'good' migrant unlike those poor refugees.
They came by boat but were hijacked by the Australia Navy in international waters and sent to a hot prison on a small island in another country, surrounded by locals who don't want them there. Their only way out is to be released into the same local community, a third world tribal place with no jobs or economy. How exactly is that going to work?
No wonder they are desperate.
And yet the government carries on with its tough man rhetoric, jealously guarding its prize stolen from the aborigines 226 years ago.
Monkey :
23 Jan 2015 11:26:03am
If you come by plane, you've passed identity checks before you even got to the border. And then you go to a detention centre for all the other mandatory checks including the time taken to have a refugee assessment conducted. If you are found not to engage Australias protection obligations, then you get sent home. no non-refugees get a visa.
23 Jan 2015 11:48:06am
What I'm reading is a lot of emotional input but no solutions based on logic and facts.
The world is a cruel place, we can makes peoples lives better but always a the expense of someone else, someone will loose out. I just think it people in the camps who are really screwed should have preference.
About the $100,000 then you are not a refugee but a migrant and by all means come in. You have proven that you can manage money and will contribute to society. Refugee and migrants are 2 different issues.
23 Jan 2015 2:19:34pm
The only country that takes more asylum seekers per capita is the other nasty super power, the US. Australia takes more than its fair share and does its bit. Not that you would know it if you listened to the ABC or read Fairfax.
The left, Burnside included, think that its OK to leave people wallowing in misery in camps in Africa. Stuff those people. Why give them a break when we have economic asylum seekers willing to pay a people smuggler right at our door.
The left have no morals and live in a fantasy land where there is always some rich man available to pay for the things.
23 Jan 2015 5:23:21pm
>The only country that takes more asylum seekers per capita is the other nasty super power, the US. Australia takes more than its fair share and does its bit. Not that you would know it if you listened to the ABC or read Fairfax.
You wouldn't know it, because it's not true. Australia has a relatively generous resettlement program yes (still a drop in the ocean, and not even close to our 'fair share', but better than others) however it is simply false that we take more asylum seekers per capita than most other countries. They just take people who show up on their border. (You know the thing we collectively mess our pants over)
You got one thing right though, the U.S. is better than us even on that point.
23 Jan 2015 9:15:36am
Ah, so now we are to enter the bidding war for crimes against humanity? Charming. What a dolt you are.
23 Jan 2015 9:39:15am
I suggest you have a read of the Rome Statute that underpins the International Criminal Court. The international law to which Australia has signed up.
The author of this article is not engaging in rhetoric. The real issue is the time and cost associated with meeting the strict conditions of the ICC before a case can be brought before the ICC Prosecutor.
And please leave Pete out of it.
23 Jan 2015 10:41:57am
Save us all the time and cite the section that excites you.
Burnside is a lawyer. Your idea of a lawyer not using rhetoric intrigues me. I take it you have already looked up the meaning of the word?
23 Jan 2015 3:43:02pm
Article 7
I am not going to read it to you.
23 Jan 2015 11:54:28am
Al, seeing Manus is operated in total secrecy by this LNP government how would you know that it is total hyperbole. We have had deaths and injuries on Manus and as far as I know not one person charged or brought to justice on them.
We may have had reports, forced on the government to make. Yet we know little of those reports except for the few snips that the government have been forced to release. Don't you even have a tiny bit of concern over the secrecy of our detention policy? Don't you have even a little bit of concern over the deaths of these people who are supposed to be in our hands? Or, can't you see past your narrow political support of this government.
23 Jan 2015 12:23:14pm
Please read what you have written and tone down the rhetoric yourself.
Do yo honestly believe it is the right of government to hold an individual in custody "at their pleasure" without charge or even a crime being committed.
Would it be ok if someone from "a government" were to stop your fishing boat in international waters, board it and detain everyone on board at an undisclosed location for an indefinite time. That is how these tow backs work. If it happens in Australian waters, they have to bring them to the mainland.
How about if they pop down to the local shopping centre and detain a dozen or so people take them to a detention centre, hold them incommunicado for an indefinite period of time.
How about if it is an offence for those knowing where your loved ones are to tell you?
How about making it an offence for you to tell anyone what charge you face, or discuss it with anyone but your solicitor?
Does that sound like the country you think your living in? Well it is. Welcome to Australia, the fascist police state. Damn I am scared, there is a terrorist under every saltbush.
23 Jan 2015 5:15:51pm
Maybe what's offensive to real victims of crimes against humanity (other than the crimes against them of course) is having their experience used to justify and minimize the experience of others.
23 Jan 2015 8:12:20am
I'd be shocked if The Drum published a contrary view on this issue.
Hank Moody:
23 Jan 2015 8:30:40am
So would I. A pro torture view would be a little dark for The Drum. Also, they seem to prefer arguments that have some basis in legal reality.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 9:03:48am
Here's another one. Torture you say. Tell us more ...
Aunty, why publish this stuff?
Hank Moody:
23 Jan 2015 1:38:55pm
Tell you more? Ok, look up the definition of torture then hang your head in shame.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 2:08:46pm
That's it Hank? I ask for details of the alleged torture you say to look up the definition of the word.
Aunty, I ask again. Why publish this stuff?
23 Jan 2015 3:31:53pm
Looked up the definition, Hank. It bears no relation to our detention camps. So that makes you a liar and a slanderer.
Fortunately, we live in a country where you're free to speak your mind - and to be mocked and ignored when you do.
23 Jan 2015 9:15:55am
Well said.
23 Jan 2015 11:12:06am
sewing your own lips together on the advice of refugee advocates is not torture, it is self-mutilation for the purpose of blackmai
23 Jan 2015 8:45:01am
Will never happen. On the Asylum Seeker issue and 'Climate Change' issues the ABC is not a news organisation, but an activist organisation.
23 Jan 2015 9:05:06am
Broadcasting the facts and uncomfortable truths isn't acting as an activist organisation. There is only one major media corporation in Australia that acts in that way and it isn't the ABC.
23 Jan 2015 11:09:11am
Refugee policy is just that, policy. I love the ABC, but on this issue, only presenting one opinion, they are letting themselves down and opening themselves up to fair criticism. If they ran piece after piece offering the opinion that 'stopping the boats' was good policy, without even one with a contrary view, what would you say then ?.
23 Jan 2015 11:54:05am
Facts on this issue sorry not on this forum ........... why let something as easy as fact ruin a good heart rendering diatribe
specially if it comes from somebody with a vested interest in perpetuating the "misery" of these poor dehumanised souls
23 Jan 2015 9:15:21am
So true BG.
Waterloo Sunset 2016dd:
23 Jan 2015 8:12:28am
The inmates are rioting, surely. no one else.Ii mean the medical staff and managers aren't rioting.
It's probably to get noticed and persuade us to bypass the entry process.
Surely Labor new this would happen once they set up the kamps?
23 Jan 2015 9:13:16am
Yet we have economic refugees coming here all the time WS and complaining loudly. Any thoughts on them.
Waterloo Sunset 2016dd:
23 Jan 2015 9:49:34am
Well in my case, I have raised the IQ average.
23 Jan 2015 10:11:43am
What on the Gold Coast, that wouldn't take much.
23 Jan 2015 11:24:30am
Yes Waterloo Sunset, it is quite clear just where on the IQ spectrum you sit with the outstanding level of grammar and spelling you display.
Waterloo Sunset 2016dd:
23 Jan 2015 4:35:33pm
It's pretty clear that grammar and spelling are only part of a measurement one's IQ.
An understanding of tongue in cheek comments, abstract thought and conciousness helps to spot - amongst other things - sycophantic leaners.
I actually pride myself on avoiding spell check. As Dudley Moore said: "Is my entire contribution to this show going to consist of my humiliating myself". From, Not Only But Always".
Stuffed Olive:
23 Jan 2015 12:30:16pm
It will be even higher when you leave WS.
Waterloo Sunset 2016dd:
23 Jan 2015 4:16:02pm
Amazing how your reply gets up and mine doesn't? Bias?
Stuffed Olive:
23 Jan 2015 5:12:47pm
But you are here WS. I don't believe IQ went up when you arrived WS judging by your posts on the Drum.
Waterloo Sunset 2016dd:
23 Jan 2015 4:31:04pm
That doesn't make any sense if you think about it - which you obviously haven't!
At best, it would revert to the previous average.
23 Jan 2015 11:35:00am
"It's probably to get noticed and persuade us to bypass the entry process."
Could it be WS that Mr Burnside with his "what would it take to shock us" question.Is looking for a shopping list of things he can advise his clients to do to gain our attention now the government has taken the illegal boat arrivals off the agenda.
the yank:
23 Jan 2015 8:14:40am
What will it take to shock us? First off we have to be allowed to see the full picture.
IF Labor wins the next election I would demand a full disclosure not only on what has happen regarding asylum seekers but our involvement in the Iraq war. Rudd didn't have the backbone I hope Shorten does.
23 Jan 2015 8:52:15am
Yes Yank. If ever there has been a need for a Royal Commission Inquiry it is into the treatment of asylum seekers. If Labor are too gutless to call for one then there needs to be a way for a Royal Commission to be held regardless of the politicians that occupy the corridors of power.
23 Jan 2015 9:15:58am
Yank, Shorten will say nothing, the ALP know that in order to win the next Federal election they will have to have the backing of the greens and all the back room deals that will involve. The LNP gained power at the last Federal election in part with their promise to stop the boats, which despite the denial of some commentators on the drum they have done. If the ALP announces any plans to change the current method of dealing with this issue because of some deal done with the greens they would not stand a chance of being elected and I'm sure Shorty is well aware of that. I'm not expecting any honesty from Labor on this issue prior to the next election.
23 Jan 2015 11:57:16am
i don't expect any from any of them labor, liberal or especially from the watermelon greens
23 Jan 2015 9:45:05am
"Rudd didn't have the backbone I hope Shorten does."
High hopes Yank. Bill is more interested in his front bone than his backbone.
23 Jan 2015 11:38:43am
"IF Labor wins the next election"
Well yank they won't do that if there is even a sniff of relaxing the current immigration laws.I think most Australians are happy that illegal boat arrivals has been taken of the front pages.
23 Jan 2015 8:18:12am
Nothing unusual with the way conservatives behave. We even do it to our own, David Hicks and Habib being one example. Our standing on human rights is well known internationally to the point where countries like germany will have noting to do with us. We need others to join in on an embargo as what is happening is outrages. The LNP behave like animals and dont belong in this day and age. The ALP needs to show some strenght rather than turning a blind eye if they want us to take them seriously.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 8:25:03am
Manus Island was set up by Labor.
No Interest in Repayments:
23 Jan 2015 8:57:51am
So that makes it alright then.
Waterloo Sunset 2016dd:
23 Jan 2015 11:22:38am
What it means that both parties have carried out the wish of the majority of Australians.
No Interest in Repayments:
23 Jan 2015 11:41:37am
My point to Forrest Julian was it is irrelevant who set it up, lets just stop being horrible.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 1:28:16pm
NIIR, I replied to a message suggesting that this was all a Liberal government issue.
Don't you like balance or facts?
23 Jan 2015 11:41:13am
Fred Longbottom:
23 Jan 2015 2:12:28pm
It doesn't seem relevant to the article, but the offshore processing centres on Manus Island and Nauru were set up in 2001.
23 Jan 2015 2:31:01pm
Set up by Labor, mismanaged by the Coalition.
16 months and not one refugee has been resettled
23 Jan 2015 4:24:47pm
50,000 arrivals under Labor, 37 under the Coalition. Talk about mismanagement.
23 Jan 2015 9:14:57am
David Hicks I would suggest would have tried to killed Australian soldiers in Afghanistan if he had not been caught. What would be your attitude to him then?
the yank:
23 Jan 2015 12:07:00pm
The US has said he isn't guilty of any crime.
23 Jan 2015 4:25:35pm
Damned for eternity by his own words and writings. May he rot in whatever hell he now believes in.
23 Jan 2015 12:36:45pm
Please take off the blinkers.
Might have,could have, those are the words your using to justify the illegal detention and torture of an individual.
Know anyone who ever got drunk. They might have could have got in a car anf killed someone. Should we lock everyone who ever drank to much up for years and torture them?
While your at it, remember the civil war in Yugoslavia. Australians in their thousands fought there. As Serbians, as Croatians, as Macedonians and as peace keepers.
Does anyone care?
23 Jan 2015 9:15:05am
You may consider yourselves at one with Mr Hicks.
I find his anti-Semitism and glorifying killing for Islam a bit beyond the pale.
It may be that the his lawyers manage to get him declared "innocent". But that is a legal technicality, on a par with the "I didn't kill him, it was the pavement when he his head hit it" argument.
Personally I think Mr Hicks should thank the USA every day for saving him from certain death in Afghanistan: the "foreigners" captured when the Taliban was overthrown were not vey popular.
23 Jan 2015 8:21:49am
Julian Burnside, your time is over. The public have long since seen through all the propaganda and misinformation put out by the boat lobby and have firmly rejected it.
After the Sydney siege there is even less sympathy for demanding, self selecting frauds and the self styled 'human rights' advocates who have assisted their entry to Australia.
In a few years time, as long as Labor is not back in power, the detention centres will be closed, people smuggling will be finished and you, Mr Burnside, will have to find another hobby horse.
23 Jan 2015 9:11:09am
Spot on!
Keith Lethbridge Snr:
23 Jan 2015 10:14:32am
G'day KK.
It's good that Mr Burnside has the freedom to express his opinion. I certainly don't agree with him, but it does appear that he speaks from the heart.
23 Jan 2015 11:42:36am
"but it does appear that he speaks from the heart."
A lot of fools do Keith.
The Concerned Citizen:
23 Jan 2015 11:46:50am
Agreed- Mr Burnside is free to speak his mind, and everyone else is free to contradict him, or otherwise remain disinterested in his attempts to "shock" them.
23 Jan 2015 11:15:14am
With all due respect, there is no statute of limitations in the International Criminal Court. Australia signed up to the Rome Statute in 2002 on three conditions all of which can be argued before the Court.
It doesn't matter if the detention camps have been closed for a decade. If a valid and admissible case is brought before the ICC Prosecutor it will be heard.
I would suggest it is just a matter of will by the various parties and the funding necessary to get the case to Court.
The matter of conviction and sentencing would then be totally at the judgement of those presiding.
23 Jan 2015 11:28:31am
I suspect you are an example a closed mind, with delusions of representing the majority, that does not understand the eloquent Burnside.
23 Jan 2015 11:49:34am
Indeed !
Without a trail of letters after your name , you really aren't in a position to be taken seriously by the learned left wing elites who know what is best for us !! So go away and behave ! Julian and I will call you if we need an Everyman opinion !
23 Jan 2015 2:15:49pm
Your words; not mine.
gerard oosterman:
23 Jan 2015 8:22:39am
Nothing but international condemnation will shock the present government from those terrible acts of terrorising thousands of people who have done no wrong.
We have our own version of Isis in Canberra.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 9:06:39am
The question was what would shock "us", GO. Got anything to say about that?
Manus Island was set up by Labor. Remember now?
Hung One On:
23 Jan 2015 10:41:06am
So using your logic FG it would be okay if the Liberals had done it first.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 1:29:20pm
No, HOO. My logic is that the Labor Fan Club should try to think before launching their daily two minutes hate.
23 Jan 2015 2:11:33pm
doesn't matter who set them up they are effective and working unlike their detractors
23 Jan 2015 9:29:20am
Gerard; If you look at the increasing opposition to immigration in Europe then the chances of international condemnation from other than human rights abuser nations is remote. With 50 million registered refugees, there simply are no resources to effectively resettle asylum seekers.
As far as Manus is concerned, the conditions there are superior to what many refugees receive even in Europe where many are forced to live in garbage tips. The issue always on Manus is that the asylum seekers/ refugees have not achieved their goal of coming to Australia. When they departed they knew that from a given date no boat arrivals would be settled in Australia.
23 Jan 2015 9:39:53am
I'm with you.
23 Jan 2015 11:15:35am
> international condemnation
faux outrage and hand-wringing from a bunch of leftist lifelong bureaucrats is hardly worth it's weight in dog doo
23 Jan 2015 11:45:38am
"Nothing but international condemnation will shock the present government from those terrible acts of terrorising thousands of people who have done no wrong."
You are not talking about the thousands of people who have engaged in the international crime of people smuggling are you?.
23 Jan 2015 12:50:48pm
Condemnation, what of the Canberra Clown Brigade.
Tony has globe trotted and bungled in almost every country. They will never get to condemnation, they are all either insulted or laughing to hard.
23 Jan 2015 4:29:21pm
Would that be 'international condemnation' be from the UN, who are doing nothing about Syria, The Ukraine, Nigeria etc, or perhaps the Europeans who have just scaled back their operations in the Mediterranean as they just being used as a taxi service for parasites? Either way; forgive me for not losing any sleep.
23 Jan 2015 4:30:22pm
'We have our own version of Isis in Canberra'. Yes, we call them the Greens.
23 Jan 2015 5:50:04pm
If you care to look European compassion is going through the floor. They are overloaded with refugees who are not fitting in and are a economic blight on their economies. Italy is putting them on buses to the border and telling them to go elsewhere. Germany has said multiculturalism isn't working. Sweden, Denmark and Norway are fed up. A report just published in Norway puts the rape rate by middle eastern men is near 100% of all rapes. Sweden and Denmark has lower rates but the pattern is similar. Expect their attitudes to harden even more as population pressures increase. The world is over populated and the pressure cooker is coming to a boil.
23 Jan 2015 8:22:39am
Sadly it appears we swallow whatever lies and atrocities the authorities throw at us if it is sold as a "harsh but necessary" measure.
If the outright lies about the "wars" in the Middle East are swallowed and the hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths accepted as righteous rather than criminal, then creating a gulag to deter legitimate asylum seekers is not so inconsistent.
This cohort of "leaders" also decided that more pain was the solution to the aboriginal crisis, our entire economy can be based on financial services and home inflation (well *their* cohort has done well as the nation's wealth is sold off), national defense should be outsourced and the solution to too much debt is more debt!
Sadly we can never claim the moral high ground again in future conflicts...as a nation we lie, steal, cheat, kill, kidnap and torture and the worlds "terrorists" are taking notice. By treating others this way all Australians are put at risk. Despicable.
23 Jan 2015 12:02:40pm
and strangely enough here on dear old aunty the bleeding hearts and teeth gnasher's swallow hook line and sinker every part truth, misconception, vague "evidence" without question
strange world indeed
gerard oosterman:
23 Jan 2015 1:25:36pm
No matter how many swallows bother coming to Australia, with the terror meted out to refugees, they will never herald a spring.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 8:23:09am
What would shock us?
If somebody sensationalised as having sown their lips together had more than a single thread through their lower lip.
If people who are free to leave were not presented as imprisoned.
The list is endless.
John P:
23 Jan 2015 8:47:33am
That's like saying someone being forced to walk the plank is 'free to leave' the ship.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 8:57:28am
No JP. Those who have chosen to leave have not been sent to their death. Not one.
23 Jan 2015 9:39:47am
And do pray tell Forrest, how do you come to this most certain of conclusions?
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 1:30:26pm
Because the Labor Fan Club and Mr Burnside would be beside themselves with moral indignation had it happened.
Easy enough?
23 Jan 2015 2:17:00pm
that's a lie.
23 Jan 2015 9:24:54am
Oh sorry Forrest, that a person in such turmoil felt it necessary to self-harm in an act of protest and desperation, but just not quite enough for you to see the picture and feel any remorse apparently. Maybe just two or three more stitches hey - then would you be satisfactorily shocked? Have a think about what you seem to require from these innocent people, and if you see nothing wrong with your train of thought, think harder.
And just quietly, free to leave is a relative term - I'm not sure the people locked up in Manus Island's solitary confinement are really that "free," or any of the others, despite your or my safe, protected, supported and free Australian opinion. (Or should I say privileged, secure, entitled, (white?) Australian opinion?)
23 Jan 2015 11:53:16am
Of course there is no chance that these people are being encouraged to self harm to get the illegal immigration debate back on the front pages.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 2:11:30pm
S, putting a single thread into your lower lip is less "self-harm" than getting your ears pierced and nowhere near as permanent.
Better Aunty?
23 Jan 2015 4:33:14pm
But, just what is the 'desperation' that you speak of Shocked? I am yet to find a leftie who can explain why it is so bad to have been saved, fed, housed and offered resettlement in another country. Just why are they so 'desperate'????
wilf O'Donnell:
23 Jan 2015 8:23:14am
Nice article Julian, this government is an embarrassment
to all Australians . Their obsession with secrecy can only come from their sense of shame at what they are doing in our name.
I would gladly contribute to a fund to assist you in prosecuting such a case.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 9:08:54am
You would contribute to such a case, but how do you feel about including Labor politicians in the case.
It was after all Labor who set up Manus Island.
Still keen?
23 Jan 2015 9:35:00am
You seem hell bent on this fact Forrest, but there doesn't seem to be much support for either Labour or the LNP here, so I think you're flashing news that's frankly irrelevant.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 1:34:36pm
Just trying to inject a little fact and balance into the fake outrage, shocked.
23 Jan 2015 6:22:23pm
The fact is, Forrest, That the LNP are now in charge whoever set up the camps, and they are doing an atrocious job. Just remember, if this is the way they treat desperate people who have been found guilty of no crime, you could be next! If you don't think so, tell that to all the survivors of the Hitler/Nazi regime. It can happen!
23 Jan 2015 9:33:11am
wilf, I have a similar idea.
Set up a Refugee Levy, operate similar to Medicare Levy.
Make threshold over say $70,000, then stepped up progressively.
Don't know how much needs to be set aside though.
23 Jan 2015 10:50:45am
Why not make it voluntary so the true believers can contribute what they believe the cause is worth? You know, spend your own money rather than someone else's.
23 Jan 2015 11:57:09am
"Set up a Refugee Levy,"
Oh yes I am sure that would go down a treat with the voting public.How to lose an election in one easy step.
23 Jan 2015 4:34:36pm
No, even better, fund it from what we currently spend on legal aid and arts grants and see the lefty heads explode!!
The Concerned Citizen:
23 Jan 2015 11:51:20am
So wilf I take it you actively volunteer the majority of your time and some of your money to providing services to the refugees we currently have?
23 Jan 2015 1:47:22pm
I will. I've got room for 1.
23 Jan 2015 8:24:05am
I live in a rural village and we have a husband and wife who arrived by boat.
Both work, the wife as a nurse and the husband holds down 2 jobs that no one else really wanted.
I saw a group of women in the main street the other day gathered around a pram with a new born in it, the baby belonged to the 'boat people' and it was a beautiful sight to see.
We are one
But we are many
And from all the lands on earth we come
We'll share a dream
And sing with one voice
I am, you are we are Australian
There was a time when that chorus made me proud.
23 Jan 2015 9:09:45am
Incredible story. I guess this song has shaped the way we think.
23 Jan 2015 9:14:16am
Thank you, Vault.
old hat:
23 Jan 2015 9:36:21am
National Anthem is old hat, try 'Straya':
My country don't share no borders
'Cos of all the waters that surround our sand
Thank god for our resources
'Cos they are the sources of our wealthy land
Don't try to find the capital
Or fight the animals
You're on your own
Just drive from town to paradise
And you'll see why we call Australia home
23 Jan 2015 10:54:01am
That's a great song for Australia but the best version of it is the Sexy Beach Babe one.
23 Jan 2015 11:59:39am
Lovely little tear jerker you have got going there Vault.
some kid:
23 Jan 2015 8:24:29am
I hate the LNP from the depth of my heart for the fact that they could only attain office to peddle their abysmal policies by vilifying these people. I hate the spinelessness of Labor, desperately hoping to remain in power by surfing the wave of hysteria and undermining to goodwill of the MAJORITY of Australians. And I hate that the Greens are my only option for a shred of humanity.
23 Jan 2015 8:57:52am
some kid, you have a lot of "hate" issues...when you grow up, you might be able to articulate your feelings in a more mature manner.
23 Jan 2015 9:09:04am
Yes Al and if he masters um ah ah um ah STOP the BOATS he may even become PM.
some kid:
23 Jan 2015 9:58:55am
Okay al, I'll give it shot if you don't mind bearing with my immature and hence irrelevant logic for a minute.
In a world with no shortage of atrocities and an ever expanding disenfranchised population, it is naive to believe to concept and practice of people smuggling will ever disappear so just get your head around that.
If these asylum seekers were so well off, they could easily buy plane tickets here and never leave, as most of them do. It is only the poorest, most desperate people who get on boats.
Applying through the proper channels simply isn't good enough at the moment. Applicants in Indonesia can wait years to be processed and their lives ain't exactly peachy in the meantime. There are all sorts of pressures that neither you no I could comprehend, family remaining in war torn countries for instance.
Then there is the unequivocal fact that first generation immigrants work harder and pull their weight more than anyone else. They built this country. They are an asset to the economy.
Why should we let our government spend ridiculous amounts of money on cruelty that will ultimately do nothing to solve the bigger problem? Just because the Libs say the boats have stopped dosnt make it so. They will never stop.
BUT. Maybe if we spent all that money on improving our application processing facilities in Indonesia instead, we could significantly minimalise the number of people forced to take the most drastic option.
And to all those obsessed with the welfare system and think it's the reason these people risk life and limb to get here, it only betrays you own leeching priorities.
BUT MOST OF ALL, this shouldn't even be our problem. That is, it shouldn't be the second most important issue of a federal election. There are far more important problems that actually affect US that we should be dealing with. That is the source of my frustration, and yes, I may have hate issues, but it's only because I love this country.
23 Jan 2015 11:14:26am
'It is only the poorest, most desperate people who get on boats.'
No, the poorest, most desperate are in the UN Camps. And again and again and agian, how many refugees should we let into Australia each year ?.
23 Jan 2015 12:56:21pm
The intake is the highest it has been in years. less boats, more refugees...
Perhaps we were much better off with the boats.
The Concerned Citizen:
23 Jan 2015 11:54:57am
You don't "love this country";
You love a certain superficial image you WANT this country to feign to the world (I'm wondering who to), and resent the fact that most people aren't interested in pandering to your beliefs at their expense.
some kid:
23 Jan 2015 1:33:18pm
Laugh now while you can Citizen, you're going to be even more concerned and alienated when the Harry Potter generation takes over!
23 Jan 2015 12:07:06pm
" It is only the poorest, most desperate people who get on boats."
You're kidding me right?.At $80000 a family that is hardly poor.No more likely they chose the illegal way because they know they have no hope the legal way.
some bloke:
23 Jan 2015 9:03:39am
There's certainly a lot of hate in the air these days. I, for instance, have to repress a whole range of horrible impulses every time I heard the phrase "back to where they came from" or see the word "queue".
It's true that both our major parties cater only to xenophobics on this issue, and if current trends are to be followed, this country will soon be as ugly as the minds of these voting human cattle.
23 Jan 2015 4:38:12pm
Yeah, I boil when I see the words; 'desperate', 'self-harm', 'hunger strikes', 'murder' and 'crimes' being so clearly misused by the loonies.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 9:10:52am
Good on you SK for professing your hate. Now channel that hate into something productive.
Oh, and the Greens as a shred of humanity? The Greens see humanity as a plague on the planet.
Keith Lethbridge Snr:
23 Jan 2015 2:12:03pm
G'day Forrest.
I also believe that humans are currently a plague on the planet. Unlike the Greens, however, my hope is that we learn to stabilise our numbers, then gradually reduce to sustainable levels. Having control of our borders is a necessary part of that scenario.
Meanwhile, those who are able & willing can assist the poor in overseas countries by a variety of other means. (I've been doing this for 33 years.)
No Interest in Repayments:
23 Jan 2015 8:24:30am
Open question to John Howard: John why was it imperative that you demonised these people?
23 Jan 2015 10:55:16am
How many refugees are you willing to put up at your place? What are you personally prepared to sacrifice? What gratitude would you expect when you have given your all? Is empty rhetoric enough for you?
23 Jan 2015 8:26:14am
These peole have sought asylum in Australia and Australia has provided them with the opportunity to have their claim considered in PNG, and if found to be genuine they can obtain asylum there. PNG is a democracy and a signatory to the UN refugee convention.
Some of the asylum seekers have issues with this because they don't want to live in PNG but Australia. Surely if they were genuine asylum seekers they would be happy to obtain refuge anywhere.
As for the individual incidents these need to be investigated appropriately. An alleged criminal act by one guard (if this is the case) does not mean the system of PNG is criminal.
23 Jan 2015 9:01:41am
The fact that the illegal migrants will not accept resettlement anywhere but in a nation that will provide them with welfare and resettlement for their families, shows that their claims are not valid.
Any concessions to these people will only provide a victory for people smugglers.
23 Jan 2015 6:32:02pm
al, they ARE NOT illegal, seeking asylum IS NOT illegal and neither is your mode of transport for doing so!
23 Jan 2015 6:33:32pm
Would you accept resettlement in a country whose citizens were threatening to rape, bash or murder you? No, I thought not!
23 Jan 2015 9:20:39am
I think from reading Mr Burnside's article that even he now tacitly accepts that these people are not really refugees.
From their actions they have made it clear that what they want (and what they paid for) was Australian residency.
23 Jan 2015 9:21:22am
Surely you could find a few more rationalisations and minimisations to make you feel better?
Truthful Tony:
23 Jan 2015 10:06:18am
I suggest you visit PNG and then have a good hard think about whether you would be happy to live there and on that basis if anyone else would be happy to live there, given a choice. Frying pan-> Fire!
The Other John:
23 Jan 2015 11:07:42am
But if they face no persecution in PNG, they have achieved their aim, Truthful Tony.
If they choose to continue their journey for economic reasons, then we are no longer talking about assylum seekers, are we?
23 Jan 2015 6:35:16pm
The Other John, They do, in fact, face persecution in PNG! Would you want to settle there?
23 Jan 2015 3:22:03pm
Yes, PNG is not Australia BUT it seems millions of people live there (including many ex pat Aussies) without having to abide by sharia law. I haven't yet read about any wars in PNG. It may not be ideal but it is better than where they came from.
These people are country shopping and get pee'd off when the country they shopped for (and paid for mind you) isn't what they are getting.
23 Jan 2015 8:26:17am
Yes, we have heard all about the problems
So, tell us your wise solution.
I am sure the politicians are all breathless with anticipation. Here is a man who can tell them how to solve the problem once and for all.
Anyone can see the problem.
I am waiting for a solution from you whining lot.
Perhaps you could be taken to the International Court for failing to tell parliament about your wise solution. After all, you must have one to be so strident in your condemnation of those who have had to address the problem.
Clicky The Robot:
23 Jan 2015 10:34:40am
why not just go back to whatever they were doing pre-1998?
23 Jan 2015 1:16:01pm
The old system worked reasonably will from white settlement to now... so how about we just do it the old fashioned way and process them.
23 Jan 2015 8:26:30am
And this apparently is one of the government's main achievements since coming to office!?
There HAS to be a better way. Take these people off Manus I to a UN-administered refugee camp and swap them for people assessed to be genuine refugees. Apparently there is an orderly queue of them waiting.
Any other ideas out there?
Come on Australia, we're better than this.
23 Jan 2015 11:08:38am
Give us a hint Virgil. Take the lead if you want change. The UNHCR don't want to be involved with the folk on Manus. They've said that.
23 Jan 2015 12:14:04pm
"Come on Australia, we're better than this."
Oh come on virgil enough with the hand ringing.I'll tell you what the majority of Australians want is for this issue to go away which it largely has under this government.
23 Jan 2015 6:43:49pm
No, this issue hasn't "gone away" it has been hidden away by a government with no heart and no compassion, that is totally amoral. If that is what the majority of Australians want, maybe they should leave and go back to the country of their ancestors! I am totally ashamed of the selfish, uncaring, amoral attitude of some of the people in this country, after all, most of us are descended from "boat people"!
23 Jan 2015 6:37:52pm
Virgil, 90% of these people HAVE been assessed as genuine refugees! That doesn't stop the amoral LNP government from torturing them in prison camps!
23 Jan 2015 8:27:45am
Julian you are absolutely correct in what you say.
The problem is that there is a large number of Australians do not care about Manus Island and the politicians know this. There are exceptions such as Sarah Hanson-Young but you only have to look at the hammering she gets from other politicians and the media whenever she raises the issues you have exposed. In these circumstances the Abbott government is content to ignore the truth and the Opposition will not protest too much because they know there are no votes in doing anything.
I read today that the US government has all but conceded that David Hicks was innocent of the charges he faced. But how many people really care that he was psychologically broken, then forced to confess to trumped up charges in order to gain his freedom. He was demonised by the Howard government and the vast majority of the public swallowed the official line, hook line and sinker. Another example was Mohammed Haneef.
The Other John:
23 Jan 2015 11:13:19am
Seeing as how you have elected to speak for us all, Greg, I might point out that you forgot to mention that the same "many many Australians" actually DO care about all lives. They care that people are not drowning at sea, and they care that their 19 year old daughter is able to safely walk home from work in the evening without being raped by an "asslym seeker" who was encouraged to hold the attitude that Australian women are fair game and that his "human rights" are worth more than hers.
If a rapist was at risk of persecution in his own country, there may well have been a good reason for it. But Julian Burnside is happy to just let all and sundry walk through the front door unchecked and unquestioned. And society picks up the tab. Not hard to take the moral high ground when taxpayers make you wealthy for it.
23 Jan 2015 6:55:03pm
The Other John, I'm sure that those being tortured by our government on Manus and Nauru, at a cost of almost one million dollars per refugee per year, would rather have drowned at sea than be put through the psychological torture they are currently going through! How would you feel if you were innocent of crime, incarcerated for years without explanation with no likelihood of ever being reunited with family and your only option is to resettle in a country that doesn't want you and whose citizens make threats against you. Until now I have never said I hated anyone in my life, but I hate the LNP with a passion, they are the worst of the worst. I am speaking as someone who was raised in a LNP household, and I have to say that nothing about this current crop of criminals who call themselves our government, in no way resemble the LNP I knew! May they all rot in the hell they believe in!
23 Jan 2015 11:19:09am
Sarah Hanson-Young is also a committed environmentalist and doesn't support population growth. If we open our borders, the population will surge and the environment will be damaged.
The Other John:
23 Jan 2015 11:47:03am
Sarah also thinks that Sea Patrol was a documentary. Enough said.
23 Jan 2015 12:05:16pm
'Accidents happen'.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 8:28:20am
Quote: They have committed no offence by coming to Australia seeking protection.
Entry into Australia without permission is an offence. Subsequent granting of protection is an excuse to that offence.
Clicky The Robot:
23 Jan 2015 10:35:27am
when did they enter Australia?
23 Jan 2015 1:17:40pm
That is truly the point. They never got to Australia.
23 Jan 2015 4:12:31pm
And never will!
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 1:35:42pm
Just before they were picked up and transported to Manus Island.
23 Jan 2015 6:57:44pm
They were "picked up" in international waters NOT Australian waters, so they did not enter Australia!
23 Jan 2015 6:56:19pm
Seeking asylum by any means at your disposal IS NOT illegal or an offence!
23 Jan 2015 8:28:49am
Thanks Julian.
What would it take to initiate proceedings in the ICC?
23 Jan 2015 8:40:41am
Some evidence of a crime for a start, which is totally lacking.
It takes more than the opinion of a deluded minority to mount a case in the ICC.
23 Jan 2015 10:29:35am
"It takes more than the opinion of a deluded minority to mount a case in the ICC"
I wouldn't be too sure about that.
Now that the Palestinians have been accepted, expect a wave of cases alleging Israeli "war crimes".
Based on the record of the Security Council and the General Assembly, I predict the ICC will grind to a halt, bogged down with cases lodged by the Palestinians and their supporters.
23 Jan 2015 1:02:49pm
For your benefit I will repeat my earlier post. This is not a matter of belief or political rhetoric it is a matter of law.
"With all due respect, there is no statute of limitations in the International Criminal Court. Australia signed up to the Rome Statute in 2002 on three conditions all of which can be argued before the Court.
It doesn't matter if the detention camps have been closed for a decade. If a valid and admissible case is brought before the ICC Prosecutor it will be heard.
I would suggest it is just a matter of will by the various parties and the funding necessary to get the case to Court.
The matter of conviction and sentencing would then be totally at the judgement of those presiding."
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 8:58:26am
What have the International Cricket Council got to do with this?
23 Jan 2015 9:53:16am
"What would it take to initiate proceedings in the ICC?"
Maybe if Burnside and Triggs stopped lying, people might take them seriously.
23 Jan 2015 8:31:18am
"The reports coming out of Manus Island right now
"Reports about what is happening on Manus Island are mixed"
Didn't that type of "evidence" used to be referred to as
"hear say" ?
Abbott, Morrison and Dutton will be long dead by the time the Castro Bros, Putin and the Chinese Government hierarchy are prosecuted in the International Court (or don't the comrades qualify for a Burnside prosecution?)
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 8:59:32am
No G. Hearsay is something else. Mixed reports are inconclusive evidence.
23 Jan 2015 9:22:56am
So your argument seems to be that no crimes should be prosecuted while there are more serious crimes available to be prosecuted.
Sounds like a pretty good system, if you only want to commit lower level crimes.
23 Jan 2015 8:31:37am
Julian Burnside QC writes the same opinion piece over and over again. Essentially, he complains here that the general public won't change their minds to agree with him. There is no evidence of him changing his mind own mind to agree with others.
Why is he only threatening to prosecute Liberal politicians when the camp was set up by the Labor government?
The Australian public will continue to welcome those refugees who come here via the official queue. There obviously is a queue because tens of thousands of refugees have come here via it since WWII.
In fact 14000 refugees came via the official UNHCR queue last year.
23 Jan 2015 9:32:39am
Don't upset them with facts.
Ben the Lawyer:
23 Jan 2015 10:49:24am
I think you will find Giles that Mr Burnside is presenting facts, one cannot change a fact however one can change an opinion. Furthermore it can be argued that a fact may be overturned by new evidence and ongoing scientific testing to ensure that the new evidence is legally and scientifically stable, the flat earth theory is a good example.
23 Jan 2015 2:39:23pm
He does however, only sprout his venom against a conservative government. We hardly heard a peep when 1200 drowned under labor. Burnside only proves that with the left it is not about issue but about side. Burnside is on labor side - regardless of the damage they cause.
23 Jan 2015 7:02:34pm
Because it is the Liberals who are now in charge and conditions have deteriorated under their watch. They are responsible for the deaths and the torture that have occurred since they became the elected government. They are totally amoral!
23 Jan 2015 8:31:52am
How many people in the PNG detention centre came from a UN run refugee centre ? We have several in the region, and there is one in Indonesia.
plus what's the quickest time a person with ID has been thru the centre ?
as for the riot that saw a person killed, wasn't the people taunting the locals about how they were going to rape and kill members of their family ? In oz, we would call the police and take them to court which hits them with an AVO . Maybe other countries do it differently ?
23 Jan 2015 7:05:44pm
No, actually, it was found that it was the locals taunting the refugees and no-one has yet been charged with the murder of Reza Berati!
23 Jan 2015 8:32:22am
Apparently Andrew Wilkie has reported the Abbott governement (19 cabinet ministers) to the Office of the Prosector at the ICC so wait and see what happens. The odds are that nothing will happen though it would certainly make for interesting times if a warrant were issued for their arrest.
23 Jan 2015 11:30:52am
I imagine the ICC would have concerns about the impact on their own credibility if they took up such an invitation Lilly. People might suspect they weren't prioritising very well. Unless of course they have unlimited funds and resources. As an independent Wilkie needs to keep the news flow going, keeping his name in lights, if he wants to be re-elected. He is not concerned about his own credibility. His negotiations with Abbott in 2010 should be all the evidence you need of that.
23 Jan 2015 1:49:23pm
Unfortunately there are very strict rules about what can be presented as a case against individuals.
The Rome Statute requires that several criteria exist in a particular case before an individual can be prosecuted by the Court. The Statute contains three jurisdictional requirements and three admissibility requirements. All criteria must be met for a case to proceed.
First, subject matter, jurisdiction or whether the acts constitute a crime under the Statute. Second, territorial or personal jurisdiction or where the crimes were committed and who committed them. Lastly, when the crimes were committed (we signed the Statute in 2002 so everything after that date is valid and there is no statute of limitation).
It is very difficult to get a case before the ICC but that doesn't mean it can't happen.
23 Jan 2015 8:32:36am
We don't like to look at how we treat our Indigenous people, the asylum seekers, we don't even want to try and understand why some our Muslim youth become rebellious.
We prefer to go to other lands and talk about the horrors, the wars and killings away from Oz, we like to pretend this is the lucky, happy, caring, matey place...
If it ever was, it ain't no more..
23 Jan 2015 11:43:02am
Seriously Helvi, Gerard and yourself seem deeply unhappy about your decision to come to Australia. Perhaps it is time you explored your options?
23 Jan 2015 1:08:29pm
OUB, that made me smile. Thanks
Tim-Tam Monster:
23 Jan 2015 1:38:38pm
Seriously OUB.. Migrant and citizen Australians who have lived here for many decades, almost a life time, have as much right to give constructive criticism of anything Australian, Australian politics, way of life or values as Native born Australians. Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions. The purpose is to make our country a better place for all Australians, and for the next generations.
Sea Monster:
23 Jan 2015 5:08:21pm
They're also welcome to non-constructive criticism, in my opinion. And others are welcome to return fire.
Tim-Tam Monster:
23 Jan 2015 7:23:59pm
What ever you wish, SM. You are the one who said "I kind of like it when I cop abuse. Its fun."
23 Jan 2015 2:42:13pm
We know why Muslim youth are rebellious we are just too weak to stand up to them. Anyone who did would be screamed down as a racist despite only speaking truth. Sadly the left have made us a snivelling weak limp-wristed society too hooked on government handouts to stand up for what is right.
Tim-Tam Monster:
23 Jan 2015 7:01:08pm
...and the right keeps handing hundreds-of-millions of dollars of taxpayers' money to the prison companies.
23 Jan 2015 8:35:21am
'crime against humanity'? Only in the eyes of the Green/Left and such. Most of us see the successful restoration of an orderly, safe and legal refugee program.
No crimes are being committed in Australia's refugee management and no one is going to be in front of the ICC.
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 9:14:22am
So cruel KK. Fancy dashing the dreams of the "Green/Left". Next you'll remind them that Manus Island was Labor's idea or that they caused the boat people problem in the first place.
Clicky The Robot:
23 Jan 2015 10:37:30am
you mention Labor's responsibility several times. I assume then you'd be happy to close the joint?
Forrest Gardener:
23 Jan 2015 1:38:01pm
The centres will be closed soon enough, unless of course Mr Burnside and others promoting open borders get their way.
23 Jan 2015 3:47:37pm
Closed may not occur. Still a handful of refugees could be in there (less than 10) just like occurred under Howard. This would give them much more room and chance to positively interact with staff. The staff would face dramatic cuts as there would be less work to do.
Offshore detention managed properly is proven to save lives. Julian Burnside has never mentioned the people that drowned on their way to Australia because he does not care about them.
23 Jan 2015 8:36:37am
It is not so much a question of legality or illegality as some may like to have it considered but what is the best way for Australia to respond to attempted people smuggling via Indonesia or elsewhere to have people circumventing and undermining an international refugee program that has been running for many years.
We saw under a previous open door policy that people smuggling was growing at an enormous rate over just a few years and who knows just what numbers could have become and the strains to be placed on various components of Australian society.
Something needed to be done and that has been done, people smuggling about stopped in its tracks for now at least.
As for conditions on Manus Island or Nauru or elsewhere for that matter, just how bad they could get are to some extent no doubt in the hands of detainees for they have far better food and accommodation than what they could expect to get in a refugee camp and perhaps that is part of the answer to the question of why do people not go to a refugee camp rather than use people smugglers?
Are detainees partaking of their own cleaning of facilities or do they expect that to be done for them? is likely another factor as to the conditions in which they are detained.
There is only a crime against humanity being seen by those who would seem to like to think that Australia is a bottomless pit as to how many people can adequately be settled here and that there should be no concern as to our own community values.
23 Jan 2015 11:14:45am
That's what I noticed in a rare photo of a filthy toilet at Manus, which was supposed to make us all shocked at how bad things were for these people. Why don't they take the effort to keep their own facilities clean? Why would they expect someone else to have to be paid by the Australian public, to clean up after they go to the toilet? How they could even allow it to become so filthy in the first place. We are told of how terrible the facilities are, yet it is the people themselves who have caused the degradation of the perfectly good facilities they have been provided with. Many Australian homeless people would be so grateful to receive such care, free facilities, & shelter. They even get free dental services, & counselling, which the Australian taxpayers themselves, (some with PTSD) don't even receive. Instead, with the encouragement of the refugee lobby here, some choose to riot, destroy facilities, & threaten staff & locals.
What would shock Australians? I would be shocked to see the refugee lobby be a bit more honest, & to accept some blame themselves for their part in what occurs.
23 Jan 2015 5:09:10pm
.... I have been waiting for years for someone t point that out. Why do Others have to clean their toilets? They are not at a resort but then I forgot, they are Muslim males and never expected to do inferior women's work.
23 Jan 2015 7:13:35pm
franjulie, the medical staff who look after these people have said that proper care is not given. A man with a cut foot refused medical care for over a week dies from a preventable infection in that foot and you call that "good medical care"! I don't! If it happened in Australia there would be an uproar followed by lawsuits! Abhorrent behaviour from an abhorrent government!
23 Jan 2015 8:40:10am
"What will it take to shock us?" How about an admission by the author of complicity in 1200 deaths at sea for his part in encouraging illegal immigrants to take to the sea in leaky boats. Such self-awareness is, of course, beyond him.
As far as the residents of Manus are concerned, they've been offered resettlement in other countries, but refused those offers. This proves beyond any doubt that their motives are economic rather than safe haven. Attempts to blackmail Australia by self-harm only underline that conclusion.
As far as Julian Burnside claiming that Manus represents a "crime against humanity", such nonsense from him is completely un-shocking, and only to be expected from such an "advocate".
23 Jan 2015 8:40:58am
I have no doubt that those in detention on Manus Island are frustrated and angry but I just can't help feeling for the hundreds of millions whose suffering is so much worse and who really have no hope because they haven't the finances and are therefor unable to use those finances to pay criminals to even get to Manus Island.
The amount of media coverage those on Manus Island are given is disproportionate relative to the media coverage given to those trapped in their own hell holes.
Ron of the valley:
23 Jan 2015 8:45:01am
> That's a pro bono case I would gladly prosecute.
Yes ! Send them all off to the Hague.
And start with little Johnny Howard.
23 Jan 2015 7:15:38pm
I would gladly donate for that!
23 Jan 2015 8:47:51am
Let me ask those of you who are old enough to cast your minds back to the 60s, 70s and 80s. Then, when tin-pot dictators and communist governments arrested people on trumped-up charges, (or without charges and trials at all), grabbed citizens or foreign nationals in secret, often in the dead of night and spirited them off to re-education or labour camps, or simply "disappeared" them, Western governments voiced their disgust. Americans, Britons, Australians etc trumpeted about the rule of law, humanitarian values and the glories of Western justice systems, claiming, "This could never happen in our free, democratic countries." Times have changed, and we have changed with them. Now, we have become "realistic", pragmatic and determined to protect our way of life, no matter what the cost to others and the damage to our supposed values. We've determined that, to preserve our freedoms, our privilege, and our way of life, we need to restrict freedom and justice for others. In short, we've lost our souls and become the people we despised way back then. Some might say that we've grown up and realised that harsh times require harsh measures, like the Manus Island detention Centre. No, we've lost our way.
23 Jan 2015 3:53:46pm
The people we despised where producing refugees. We are not. We are having people so desperate to arrive that they are paying criminals and climbing over each other and corpses in the ocean.
There is a very big difference that leads someone to believe manus island for a period of time is better than their home country.
23 Jan 2015 7:19:48pm
splod1, you are so right! We have become what we hated! This LNP government bears no resemblance to the LNP governments I grew up with, they no longer have a heart or a conscience and live to help the top 10% of Australians, who, for the most part, are donors to the LNP. Totally amoral government!
23 Jan 2015 8:48:15am
Even the claim they have sewed their lips together is a lark. 2 small pins and a bit of thread.
Well I think you would be shocked if they had really sewn their lips together - Like I have witnessed with a bloke sewing himself up with 2 paper clips.
23 Jan 2015 9:09:49am
The fact that you are arguing about the level of lip sewing that is going on as some kind of basis to defend what is going on in these detention camps is amazing.
23 Jan 2015 10:56:00am
I am not defending the obvious propaganda and spin put out by "advocates" as to the severity of the situation.
What is going on is a clear manipulation of the minds of the gullible and closeted Australians who do not know what real adversity is.
23 Jan 2015 12:32:38pm
What exactly is going on in the detention camps?
Are people being regularly beaten / tortured?
Are people being starved?
I would argue that the lip sewing is more to gain media coverage than a requirement for a hunger strike.
The people in the detention centres are clearly under severe psychological stress because they are being denied entry to Australia after having paid significant money to people smugglers and possibly concerned for families who are required to pay the debt. I would argue to provide any hope of resettlement in Australia would only increase the trauma.
23 Jan 2015 7:25:46pm
Mathew,these people are under a lot of psychological stress, most of which has been caused by being held prisoner for years when you have been found guilty of nothing and have been processed as a genuine refugee and are being psychologically tortured as well. It's not surprising that these people are self harming! When you have lost all hope you would rather be dead!
23 Jan 2015 8:52:35am
The manner in which we treat asylum seekers, since Howard, has always disgusted me personally and I have written about this before. I have never understood why or how it could be treated as a crime to want to escape to a better life. We would never be inundated in the manner of some European countries. The best solution is peace and assistance in development of home countries. Most people would prefer to stay in their birth country if there was opportunity there.
It has been heartening to read other comments recently against what Australia is doing. I hope that the people who are responsible for this terrible regime are held to account.
23 Jan 2015 9:35:27am
Oaktree: The assumption that we will not be inundated is not a good one. We now hear of cargo vessels being used to get asylum seekers to Italy, so it is not outside the realms of possibility that armadas may set sail carrying tens of thousands of asylum seekers. Past history has also shown us that any relaxation of controls brings an increasing flow. Human traffickers respond to the opportunities investing more and more in vessels as the demand increases. Hence if we want to make all welcome, then we will become an alternative to Europe.
23 Jan 2015 12:35:22pm
My preference would be for faster processing. I think that forcing people to go and live in Cambodia is a terrible decision. I always feel that working with a situation rather than against it brings better and safer outcomes in years ahead. We will have climate refugees in greater numbers and our processing and planning should be gearing up for this.
23 Jan 2015 3:56:21pm
With a limited number of spaces, there can not be faster processing unless we say no to the vast vast majority.
I would be happy with that is about 90% of people that arrive in Australia where returned due to insufficient evidence of their claim within a week.
We need to consider the UN camp queues. They have waited for much longer. So first we should go through hundreds of thousands of them before looking at one person who made it to Australia.
23 Jan 2015 8:55:22am
The writer has been flogging a dead horse for some time trying to get Australia to open its borders to people fleeing the middle east and northern Africa and seeking a new life.
The constant references to the UN refugee convention and the legal entitlements arising therefrom do little to sway the majority of Australians. The world has changed a lot since the convention was set up. There is no entitlement to seek asylum in the convention based on civil war and poverty which are the main reasons today that people leave their countries. Other people simply want to immigrate to a prosperous western country seeking better opportunity. The constant reference to the man from Iran who was killed during a riot in PNG does little to sway opinion as this man should have returned home rather than go to PNG. He applied to migrate to Australia but his application was rejected. He then decided to seek to gaining a back door rout to Australian residency and ended up in PNG.
Julian does not seem to accept that 15 years ago or so a new industry was established to take advantage of the UN convention to sell tickets to people wishing to immigrate to rich countries such as Australia and northern Europe. These immigration facilitators don't sell tickets to poorer countries that are signatories to the convention as there is little demand. In Australia business boomed after the word got around that Australia was open for business after Rudd took over as PM. The lax processing methodology saw that 90% of passengers obtained residency compared to about 30% in Europe. Destruction of any identification helped as it was impossible for the authorities to verify claims of persecution.
Following the closure of access via immigration facilitators to Australian residency the market for their services dried up but in Europe it is escalating. We are now seeing the business operators buying small ships headed for the scrap yard and filling them up with customers fleeing civil wars and religious intolerance in the middle east and northern Africa. Business is booming but it is beginning to test the resolve of the EU countries and it is likely this business will be shut down like it was successfully done in Australia.
Australians are not racist as refugee lobbyists keep maintaining. One only needs to look at the legal immigration mix and the lack of any opposition to the current immigration policy to see this. To keep representing that opposition to the immigration facilitator business model is racist is disingenuous but Mr Burnside knows this.
Australians are also open and accepting to an orderly refugee program and Mr Burnside also knows this.
So what needs to be done about the massive people dislocation from civil wars and violence largely due to religious intolerance. In addressing this it is about time that the left ceased blaming the west for creating the problem as daily events of violence reported involve reli
23 Jan 2015 12:37:30pm
Peter, I may be wrong with this, but I believe the actual figure for re-settlement under Labor was the 90% as you mention. There were a further 9% who were not initially assessed as refugees, yet successfully appealed using tax payer dollars. So that is 99% of arrivals were accepted as "refugees". A remarkable figure compared to the 30% or so in other democratic countries. Our refugee activists did a stirling job in coaching. No wonder so many so called refugees threw away their passports before they boarded a boat. They could pretend to be who ever they chose to be knowing they will be coached and tax funded to appeal if necessary.
This huge distortion in our assessment of refugees was a magnet to even more country shoppers and the smuggling trade.
People like Burnside were contributors to the boat people problem. They will however neither see nor admit this.
23 Jan 2015 4:51:36pm
Looks like the moderator edited out the rest of my post proposing a new approach to the problems of handling the increasing problem of people fleeing problems mostly in the middle east and northern Africa muslim countries. Obviously our ABC is not interested as it did not comply with their views
23 Jan 2015 7:41:06pm
You're right Peter, the world, and Australia, has changed. We have become more uncaring and more selfish. I have never been in the position where I needed to flee for my life because I was faced with rape, torture or murder from my government, but I would do anything to save my family from such a fate. If I was in that position, I would hope that there was an understanding government and country that would offer me assistance. Obviously you think differently. Don't think it will never happen here, because it could, as it has in so many other countries!
John G:
23 Jan 2015 8:57:47am
If 1200 asylum seekers dying under Labor didn't shock us I doubt the miss information and lies being report as fact will. Pity Julian and the ABC didn't display the same shock and horror when Labor/Greens opened the borders and we had record numbers in detention and dying at sea. Maybe Julian would also like to work "pro bono" on a case to prosecute the Labor leaders and co that allowed the deaths at sea.
23 Jan 2015 9:00:03am
"The hard facts about the horrific conditions on Manus Island that I've outlined above may not be enough to shock us, but the one thing that really might shock us is to see Abbott, Morrison and Dutton prosecuted in the International Criminal Court for those crimes. That's a pro bono case I would gladly prosecute."
It's also one you'll lose. The defence counsel will surly point the court towards the fact that the incarceration is legal under the laws of Australia, passed by the ALP government at the time, with the backing of the Australian electorate. It is not
Before you blame any of my political representatives you need to also point the finger at me, the Australian people.
"They have committed no offence by coming to Australia seeking protection." Yes they have, they have tried to enter Australia often after transiting through countries that are signatories under the convention. To say they are legally seeking refuge is a nonsense.
Please stop projecting the guilt you feel about your privilege onto me, the Australian people.
23 Jan 2015 9:14:01am
On the money Fitzy, what I really find shocking is the attitude of those who consider these illegals should have even more costly support then we already give.
Guests of us Aussie people carrying on as they do. Responsibility before Rights.
23 Jan 2015 12:20:30pm
OMG how heartless are you ............. would you deny poor poor Julian his livelyhood, his ability to drain the public purse and feel good about himself whilst doing it ....
shame shame shame writy
23 Jan 2015 7:49:24pm
Fitzy. you have your misguided opinion of what is right in the treatment of human beings in this world and I have mine. I do not believe that the torture of people who have been found guilty of no crime and have been found to be genuine refugees is right, good or in the best interests of our country. We treat the murderers in our jails better than we treat people who have come to us for protection.
I, also, am the" Australian people" and you do not speak for me. The current government and their policies against the average Australian and the refugees disgusts me!
Alex J:
23 Jan 2015 9:01:00am
Reza Berati, by his own family?s admission, was not a genuine refugee. He attempted to enter Australia in an unlawful manner purely for financial gain.
He was the architect of his own demise.
For those finger pointing about Manus remember, Labor not only set up the detention centre but created the massive pull factor that filled it.
The claims that 90% of refugees are found to be genuine is also spurious, in many cases they work the system by hiding their true identities, give scripted stories provided by their smuggling networks both within and outside this country and exploited the weak requirements for the old test methods.
As for this article, I would expect nothing less from Mr Burnside.
23 Jan 2015 9:32:05am
and like Man Monis, we only learn about their fraudulent asylum claim once something extraordinary happens
23 Jan 2015 9:58:22am
You took the words right out of my mouth. The bureacrats definition of 'genuine' is somewhat lacking in rigor.
23 Jan 2015 9:56:13am
"He was the architect of his own demise."
So having his skull broken open by a rampaging mob beating, then dropping a large rock on his head was all part of Reza's design?
If you believe that any action by an individual should attract a reward such as this, then I believe you fail the test of basic human decency.
I am absolutely sick of hearing this kind of completely immoral moralising from pious, comfortable, arrogant Australians. We really have become the insular, uncaring fat cats of the western world. We have everything, and the more we get the less we care about those who have nothing.
23 Jan 2015 11:18:15am
hear hear
23 Jan 2015 3:05:56pm
Actually, he was part of the rampaging mob so yes, it was of his making. rampaging security guards were in response to the riot he helped cause. Justified or not, it was of his own making.
These people don't have nothing. They are cashed up opportunists. Australians at large are entirely comfortable with the genuine refugees that come via legitament channels
23 Jan 2015 3:08:37pm
Totally agree.
23 Jan 2015 12:07:33pm
Thanks Alex for highlighting the 'inconvenient truth' to the loony left.
23 Jan 2015 9:01:09am
Pro Bono. You really thinking about taking the prime minister to court. Julian you really are a great Australian.
Good Luck with your court-case.
Majak Door.
23 Jan 2015 9:08:23am
Where can I make a contributions to your Pro-Bono fund?
23 Jan 2015 11:00:19am
Well, at the end of the day you will be supporting his nefarious claim at the ICC with your taxes.
What I would like to know does Mr Burnside pro Bono offer extends to reimbursing me, the Australian public, for the waste of money that could otherwise go to needy Australian families?
The Average Joe:
23 Jan 2015 9:11:27am
You are all so deluded with your own selves and your own lives and your own first world problems to care about others. Globalisation has achieved little more than bolster your 'us and them' mentality and privelaged attitude at having been born in a country that was actually stolen from the Australian Aboriginal. Were you to sit 2 seconds with these refugees that you hate so much in their squalid conditions you would find that they would offer you their meager food and shelter, even their organs according to reports, while we sit here haughtily typing crap about them because we can't overlook or forgive that these people don't make life and death decisions based on reading a finely printed paper, so precious is this paper that we can't look through it to a starving baby and its family. Australia's own homeless and destitute are more the heroes of generosity in news stories. Ironic that the harder the life you live the more humble you are. We have so much, yet hate so much. This article has inspired me to act. Thank you Julian.
23 Jan 2015 9:46:09am
Finally an average Joe I agree with! Well said - as a young Australian this thread of comments is as horrifying as it is common.
23 Jan 2015 9:11:54am
We do quite a bit of work with a particular refugee group and the majority of those we deal with want the boats stopped. Why? They have friends and relatives sitting in camps overseas who cannot afford the boat smugglers fee. They do not like others jumping the queue because they can pay for it. I have photos of one of these long term refugee camps and the conditions there are far worse than Manus Island. Thing is though, the conditions are better than where they live as they get food, education and health in the camp, not at home.
23 Jan 2015 9:15:02am
I know someone who worked on Manus Island. He lost all respect for Australian aid services and stated that the immigrants were encouraged by lobbyists to go on hunger strikes or whatever it takes to get noticed by media and the Government. More concern were the leaders of these immigrants in the camps demanding others to perform these forms of protest or suffer the consequences.
Another thing that he noted was that a majority of the men on Manus were economic refugees, that is highly educated men who cannot get jobs in their own country, not genuine political refugees. So until we get some genuine information regarding the actual real numbers of genuine people fleeing persecution, not people seeking a better lifestyle per se, will you get the Australian public to sit up and take action.
How about you give your attention to the camps all over Africa, where tens of thousands of people are fleeing Boko Haram or those people fleeing from ISIL in Syria and Iraq? I don't think you would find anyone voicing their opinion to give these people a place of refuge here. A bit of perspective please.
23 Jan 2015 9:49:17am
What, precisely, is wrong with economic refugees wanting to come to Australia?
23 Jan 2015 11:02:52am
"What, precisely, is wrong with economic refugees wanting to come to Australia?"
A. Economic ruin and poverty for Australians who do not have the benefit of being able to claim welfare.
23 Jan 2015 11:25:02am
Nothing, as long as they do it legally. If one's first thought is 'I'm going to commit a crime in order to get ahead of my fellow man' one can hardly be thought of as a prime candidate for employment in a first-world country.
23 Jan 2015 12:03:50pm
You seem to have missed the point that it's really not clear what is illegal in all this.
23 Jan 2015 11:25:07am
went they get in, we reduce the number of genuine refugees we take into our country.
so a rich person who can pay gets in before a poor person who has waited longer.
that annoys some people.
23 Jan 2015 12:03:09pm
Why is an economic refugee not a genuine refugee?
23 Jan 2015 12:23:24pm
Thats like saying 'why doesn't the government give every citizen $1000000.' I hope you weren't being serious.
23 Jan 2015 12:31:30pm
"Why is an economic refugee not a genuine refugee?"
With that type of thinking, I'll quit my job claim hardship and move to Singapore, Luxembourg or one of the Scandinavian countries as a refugee.
It is the responsibility of the country and the people themselves to pull themselves out of the muck and make their land and people rich.
23 Jan 2015 1:39:39pm
Australia accepted thousands of economic refugees from Europe after WWII.
Why won't we now?
Is it because these newer ones aren't so white and Christian?
23 Jan 2015 11:36:22am
Nothing! As long, as it's in accordance with Australia's existing immigration policy.
Relaxing the current border protection policies, creating a people smuggler industry and unwittingly causing 1200 deaths at sea? There's a lot wrong with that.
23 Jan 2015 12:04:46pm
You seemed to have missed the point that this about the possibility that our existing immigration policy is bad.
23 Jan 2015 2:29:47pm
I don't really give a brass razoo about the type of refugee, economic or otherwise. I was just stating a point that was told to me by a person who had recently worked there. It is the fact that these economic refugees may not be fleeing from the type of persucution, or other situation, that the Government requires for people seeking refugee status, therefore effectively denying people waiting in other countries asylum. Eg Iraq, Syria etc.
I think there needs to be a distinction between what the author refers to as Illegal refugees and queue jumpers. I assume, that the Australian public are more annoyed by the fact that the 'boat people' are queue jumpers, and can discern the difference. The term 'illegal immigrant' has been a favourite for the media and politicians, which correctly stated in the article as a misnomer, however illegal immigrant is now widely used. The Government has apportioned a finite number of refugees each year, with the number of applications, presumedly, increasing each year. Given the numbers of people seeking refugee around the world, and the lengths to which they will go to get to their desired location, then we will continue to see more boats in the future.
There has to be some kind of global effort in peacekeeping and economic development in developing countries before any changes will occur. I'll be dead and buried before then. So in the meantime I, like many others, want clarity and factual reporting about Manus Island. And I think too, as a population, we are numb from the events in Sydney and Paris and now Japanese hostages, also the children being forcibly strapped with bombs in Africa etc. With so many atrocities occurring in the world you do get densitised, but at the same time horrified.
23 Jan 2015 9:15:24am
"What will it take to shock us"?
I'd suggest that one shock would be for an ABC journalist to fully investigate and report truthfully on the activities of the "refugee advocates" operating at Manus. To what extent are they responsible for whipping up dissent and protest action from the detainees? Can fingers be pointed at these advocates regarding detainee injuries and deaths during recent riots?
Too many times the ABC reports "atrocities" committed by authorities against these illegal immigrants, only to be proven factually incorrect, or grossly exaggerated, later on.
We give these people safe haven from the "persecutions" they claim to be escaping from, yet too many of them simply just want the economic advantages Australian society offers. Nothing wrong with that! But, wait your turn with the genuine immigration applicants.
23 Jan 2015 9:45:52am
"Too many times the ABC reports "atrocities"....only to be proven factually incorrect, or grossly exaggerated, later on"
How very true , on this and many other topics as well. The ABC is a news service that, despite public funding, needs to compete against the commercialised, sensationalist main stream media. It does this by running staggering headlines and text, but all with the weasel words and phrases, caveats, ifs, buts, maybes, unsourced quotes and narratives that blur the lines between reporting and opinion. There are a few different topics that I happen to research and I know that corrections, retractions and clarifications are seldom made. Who cares about yesterday when today's news must be new.
I have every sympathy for people in detention and I find arguments made both on whether we should allow more or less into Australia to be unconvincing. Or at least for what I see as the wrong reasons.
So my primary concern remains the treatment and welfare of those in our care, that detention should be as short as possible and not used in a punitive way and that asylum seekers should be settled, re-settled or returned in the shortest time possible.
Alison Cann:
23 Jan 2015 9:15:33am
Two stories are wafting out of the Australian political ruins of Manis Island. Breath in, the words and nuances will drift over the mind as to which story is to your taste.
Inside, inside Manus there are inside sources and those sources can be truly acidic with some bite.
Outside, here on the mainland there are words by the Australian Immigration Minister Peter Dutton that could unbutton some views from the lips that are sewn up tight. Whatever happened the tension on the thread of either story is tight and can be embellished as it unfolds according to who is to win and backing the dog in the fight. Lips are sealed but teeth are bared according to the mouth and the guard with the gun and whose gums are about to unleash a tirade of abusive words, I swear that this place is just like an asylum as on their feet they have sneakers.
Let's take a peak under the political covers and reveal the body of the place, all naked and skin bare on this island where all around is shark-infestered waters.
23 Jan 2015 9:17:15am
What will it shock us? That's very easy: Cargo vessels containing tens of thousands of asylum seekers heading for our shores. With about 50 million registered refugees and who knows how many are unregistered, the potential for an avalanche of humanity descending on Australia is very real. The provisions currently in place make Australia unattractive. Any attempt to soften the approach will just send encouragement to those who might like to undertake the trip. Regulating the flow will be impossible.
It's difficult to be shocked by conditions on Manus. The people there have conditions beyond what most refugees receive and for those who are genuine, there is a period of safety before they are repatriated ( which is all the International Convention guarantees).
23 Jan 2015 11:27:01am
I agree
if one of those uncrewed ships came to OZ, we would freak out.
we are so lucky compared to countries like Italy, but at least they are lucky to be able to send the people deeper into the EU so they can go to places like France
23 Jan 2015 9:19:22am
Ah Julian, it's time for you to accept that the Australian public does not want a massive and uncontrolled flow of largely fraudulent asylum seekers coming to this country, and support measures to stop.
The detention centres are unfortunate, but are only temporary as the people smuggling criminals and would-be economic refugees realise the years-long rort in Australia-land is finally over.
When these centres are closed, and the problem is gone, what will you hypocritically bleat about then?
Also, your gross exaggeration of events in these centres is pathetic, and people like you actually bear a lot of responsibility for encouraging their rioting and bad-behaviour, so you can gaspingly report on the next series of "events" in these centres.
I am a big ABC fan, but I'm also really tired of the ABC pushing this ridiculous pro-[so-called]-refugee line.
There is copious evidence that the majority of asylum seekers in recents years are fraudulent (with identity documents destroyed and rehearsed identifical stories), and Australia's resettlement program has been badly rorted. It is about time both the ABC and people like you Julian finally accepted this fact and stopped insisting that the majority of asylum are lovely genuine imperilled people.
23 Jan 2015 11:30:33am
If it makes you feel more comfortable Fred, that asylum seekers are fraudulent, then I guess that's okay. Forget the facts, that most are genuine. It is very easy for the every day Australian to be so complacent. We have never felt the atrocity of war or the fear of being displaced. I hope we never do learn to know what it is truly like, but if we do, hopefully there will be humanity alive in the country to which we run.
23 Jan 2015 2:34:00pm
For a statement like that you must provide facts.
23 Jan 2015 9:20:14am
Julian, you are sounding more shrill than ever. Whats your problem. Is the gravy train of tax payer funded refugee appeals coming to an end? Concerned about the level of service at Club Manus? Guests at Club Manus not getting what they paid for upsets you? Feeling irrelevant?
23 Jan 2015 9:48:11am
Walter, you are shooting the messenger, and avoiding the message.
23 Jan 2015 10:01:51am
You nailed it, Walter. The business models of people smugglers and other beneficiaries and hangers-on are collapsing. There is no interest like self-interest- make no mistake.
23 Jan 2015 9:22:08am
Only badly lead governments are to blame.
23 Jan 2015 11:06:31am
You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead.
23 Jan 2015 2:31:50pm
I agree.
23 Jan 2015 9:23:16am
Those who are outraged by Manus Island are those who prize fairness way above all other vales.
Unfortunately for them, the rest of the population (who are voters as well) accept that questions of fairness must to be moderated by the need to maintain order and process.
23 Jan 2015 9:25:36am
If resettled in Australia these boat people , the moment things go wrong - go into mouth sewn up mode.
Do we want them as neighbours ? Afraid not. Pathetic sensationalism. And also tell them to stop swearing at and abusing the local PNG villagers who live nearby. Respect they obviously have none.
23 Jan 2015 9:38:45am
To be frank Rank, with an opinion like this, I'd choose them over you right now.
23 Jan 2015 11:51:29am
Abnd therin lies the problem.
23 Jan 2015 2:30:29pm
Well said. Me too.
23 Jan 2015 9:26:24am
I think you will find people drowning at sea tends to shock more.
23 Jan 2015 9:51:27am
Sarah Hanson-Young wasnt shocked by the deaths of over 1,200 people at sea.
"Accidents happen". Is it an accident when you open the door and let everyone know that as long as they can make it here they are on the gravy train for life? And that they will also be able to bring their families as well?
But when 1 person dies after being a party to starting a riot, then we need a War Crimes hearing set up.
Its interesting seeing the volume of agreement and disagreement with Burnside. Historically the vast majority of comments have been left/progressive leaning, yet in this thread its about 50/50.
Are more people with different views coming to The Drum, or have these views always been around, but the moderators have stopped censoring a lot of posts which they simply didnt agree with?
23 Jan 2015 12:02:51pm
The moderators are still censoring, but I think that the Australian people are fed up with ever declining standards of living and being taken advantage of by these interlopers.
23 Jan 2015 2:28:50pm
Please don't speak for me. I'm an Australian and I definitively don't have your views.
23 Jan 2015 9:28:11am
Perhaps an absence of hyperbole from partisan lawyers posing as advocates would be a shock. Stop crying wolf and start giving the whole story.
The government of Australia, and parts of the media, refer to them as "illegals" because they are trying to enter australia illegally (verified by ABC fact checker I believe)
Bob Carr and Kevin Rudd both conceed many of these people are 'economic refugees' (opportunists in other words) Lets reserve our very generous support for real refugees
Breach of peace:
23 Jan 2015 9:31:00am
In all due respect Julian your opening paragraph ending with, "There has been little apparent public concern." First of all the public is concerned about the "illegals" that come onto this country "unannounced" by way paying a 'people smuggler to get them here. Secondly, how is the public able to find out all of the details of these 'detainees' who paid money to be smuggled into Australia when the Australian government suppressed regular information and statistics through their military liaison Lt. General and "no comment"?
Australia does have a policy for granting asylum to refugees, however in must be done in accordance with the legislation or the Refugee Convention. The "jumping the queue" by immigrants who have paid to be promised to be delivered to Australia is a lie told to the illegal immigrants by the boat smugglers. In Indonesia people smuggling is not a crime and their is much corruption in Indonesia and everyone knows that. So between corruption and lying there is a problem and they want to make a profit. And yes the Australian government also lies, that is undeniable. Don't must governments, if not all lie and deceive its citizens on a regular basis? None of us like the circumstances on Manus Island nor do we agree with letting thousands in without going through the proper channels.
"They have committed no offence by coming to Australia seeking protection." is erroneous as it has always been the way they got here in the first place, not through the normal asylum seeking procedures if we are going to stick to the law. None of us have seen the 'original contract' or treaty of the Refugee Convention and what it outlines and what we can and cannot do with refugees or asylum seekers. I have said for years that there should have been a referendum on this issue as well as a lot of other issues concerning Australia and its legal inhabitants. We either stick to the UN Convention or decide to establish individual sovereignty of Australia on this matter.
23 Jan 2015 9:33:43am
As someone who has just finished a long and costly battle in the courts, I would suggest that Mr Burnside's offer of pro bono work could be better targeted.
While I was able to pay my legal fees (or at least the "gap" after "reimbursement"), many others can't or are too concerned about bankruptcy to stand up for their rights.
Rather than defending those who are upset that their contracts with people smugglers have not been successfully completed (with Australian residency/citizenship), Mr Burnside could use his time to help the poor and weak who never had the money to but access to the destination of their choice.
PS Do we really have to encourage further tantrums and publicity seeking from the disappointed migrants?
23 Jan 2015 9:37:55am
Maybe we are not shocked because we disagree with your opinion of what is happening.
Maybe we see groups of people illegally emmigrating from Indonesia where they were not being persecuted. They may have been persecuted in their country of origin, but they have escaped that by getting to other countries like Indonesia. Once they are no longer in the country where the persecution was alleged to have happened, then any further moves to other countries is emmigration, if that is done without the required entry visa then it is illegal, that makes them illegal emmigrants.
Having said that I am absolutely disgusted by the government's lack of action processing the assylum claims, it is wrong to lock people up indefinitely without trial. If they arrived at the airport without a visa, migration would do the investigation and have them on a return flight within days.
So Julian, it is only you and your fellow refugee advocates that should be shocked, because Manus island is a direct consequence of refugee advocates medling in migration affairs and tying Australia's courts up in endless appeals, the only way the country has a hope of processing these claims to a conclusion is to do it outside our borders.
23 Jan 2015 9:39:06am
"What will it take to shock us"
50,000 illegal arrivals and 1,200 drowning seems to have done the trick.
23 Jan 2015 10:23:07am
You are so right.
23 Jan 2015 9:41:14am
Julian, it may shock the Australian public, or some significant portion of them, if you were to do two things:
1. Supply, in full, the specific section(s) of "Article 7 Crimes Against Humanity" of the Rome Statute of The International Criminal Court against which you believe Abbott, Morrison and Dutton may have offended, and
2. Put out a formal complaint to the Prosecutor's Office of the International Criminal Court for signature by all Australians in agreement.
This would achieve several very salutary things:
Firstly, it would bring to general attention that there is an International Criminal Court set up to deal with exactly the kind of bad behaviour by governments as has happened under Pinochet in Chile, Indonesia in West Papua, China in Tibet, various tyrants in African States, and, tragically, the USA in Guantanamo bay.
Secondly, and very importantly, it would make clear to the world at large, that the International Criminal Court is not just an organization set up by Europeans to prosecute black Africans.
Thirdly, it would serve notice on all governments and members of governments that there is a functional International Criminal law and that they are not just free to break International Law with impunity if it suits their national agenda to appeal to the most depraved and inhuman section of their national community.
Please do these two things.
We need something to sign, Governments need to be put on notice and the International Criminal Court needs to be supported by a national community - and kept alive to its international responsibilities.
23 Jan 2015 10:49:19am
Running to lawyers. Unelected and unaccountable to the people. It concerns me that people are prepared to hand over our self determination to international bodies. It seems to me much of the International Law was derived in a different era when travel wasn't nearly as easy. I get to dump my Government if I and other Australians decide to, I have no say on International organisations and I do not believe many operate for the interests of the lawful majority in countries - they operate to advantage their own specific interests. Consequently you'll see more and more of the average person shifting towards radical political parties.
23 Jan 2015 9:42:01am
What will it take to shock us?
The amount a QC charges.......
23 Jan 2015 3:31:40pm
Hear, hear! I wonder if Julian's nest is starting to lose feathers?
23 Jan 2015 9:43:59am
The question of whether or not a person is genuine refugee pales into insignificance when we consider how Australia has treated these people.
How can we as Australians (or any other nation for that matter) possibly seek to justify sub-standard and inhumane treatment of any person based on a question of refugee status.
The fact that our government clouds the whole issue in secrecy simply confirms that there are dirty secrets that must be hidden from view.
Shame on us.
23 Jan 2015 9:45:25am
Most of the people who think that what is going on at Manus Island is a good thing are purely and simply racists.
Some aren't. They are the immoral, opportunistic politicians who saw votes in stopping the boats.
Duncan S:
23 Jan 2015 9:47:31am
Burnside accuses the majority of Australians of being unconcerned about refugees.
In fact we are taking more than ever. It's just that they now can come from the desperate queues in Africa of people whose identities we know, who have been waiting for years, who are too poor to pay smugglers, and who are honest enough to produce their papers for checking when asking for our hospitality.
Instead of us being forced to take instead those who can afford to pay thousands, go through and spurn multiple countries where they are safe, then just before reaching here sell or give their papers to criminals, to frustrate identification and checking.
If such people are now on Manus, completely safe from the persecution they claim to be fleeing, with a chance to live free and safe in PNG but are still not satisfied are doing publicity stunts, well no I'm not particularly concerned about that.
Freddie Frog:
23 Jan 2015 9:48:56am
It would clearly be better for humanity if thousands more died at sea.
But there is one thing Burnside is right about, we shouldn't be locking people up on Manus. Instead we should remove ourselves from the refugee convention and refuse to accept anyone who arrives by boat to Australia.
That way we can save money as well as being able to increase our humanitarian intake from overseas refugee camps, choosing the most in need people who are already UNHCR processed. Somehow I don't think Burnside would support such a suggestion, because it would work.
23 Jan 2015 9:49:29am
I agree with JohnC's comments. What I do not understand is why both sides of politics are determined to demonise these refugees? Why is it in their interests to flout international law and opinion to win votes at home. Why do so many Australians support the inhuman treatment of asylum seekers?
The Other John:
23 Jan 2015 11:22:17am
Both sides of politics have a duty of care to their own citizens and society first.
When an Iranian so called assylum seeker is encouraged to believe that his own human rights are more highly valued that the safety of the 19 year old girl he brutally raped in Sydney, we deserve the right to stand up and say how did this happen? How can we ensure it does not happen again?
If unchecked and unfettered intakes of unknown assylum seekers were allowed happen in the numbers advocated by Mr Burnside, would it make our society more or less safe, do you think?
If it is within the control of our politicians to ensure that are own safety is paramount, let them get on with it.
Victor of KeW:
23 Jan 2015 9:50:57am
another year of the high moral ground from Burnside & the ABC. Along with Triggs who is so out of touch , we see little common sense but just bleeding heart, unrealistic, pathetic outbursts of concern. Can't get the thought of 1200 drownings at sea and the other consequences of previous policies from mind while these economic tourists enjoy food & shelter while they make up their minds to head else where in the world because they will not get to Oz this way.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 9:51:10am
My feeling is that it is a very different problem from that, Julian.
We've had some real doozies over the last year regarding Abbott. He goes on television before an election and says he lies. The polls don't respond to that. And remember, the polls aren't people, they don't respond like people, they're indicators of something or another but we don't necessarily know what conditions have produced a particular response.
Later, after he wins an election, it becomes clear that he has lied, about a lot of things, just as he made clear. The polls also don't indicate much of a shift of voting preference. And remember, those polls aren't necessarily responding just to that.
So "the people" are pretty cynical at the moment. But let's take a look at what we mean by cynical, here. It's not a hardening of the heart. It's a hardening of sensitivity to shock. Like a human heart exposed to too much of what is not good for it, this peoples heart knows that too many of these shocks will do it damage. It is now encouraging the people to keep things calm, not do too much, not get too excited.
Well that's not about no longer caring, that's about caring too much. The people are pretty sure of how things are going to pan out here. We help get those people off the islands. Then some kind of trouble starts. And of course it was our fault that the trouble started, if we hadn't got them off the islands we could have forced them and all the other refugees to understand that they just are not welcome here. And then it'll be on once again, we gotta take your education, we gotta take your healthcare, we gotta take your retirement, we gotta raise your taxes because it's your fault we're in this mess.
It's that that's the problem. It's low-level harassment and it's been going on for a long time. We are all now living in a seventies Queensland. We are also all now living in an airport, where we are 24 hour monitored and told what we can and cannot do.
"Mind your manners" is the point here. That's the message we're getting over and over again, that kind of contempt. And, actually, it's not just coming from the pollies. It's coming from Manus too, it's coming from other countries, it's coming even from you. You'd be happy to prosecute, Julian? So the government could have it's own Matyrs, of the Revolution?
23 Jan 2015 9:57:04am
Many Australians are descendants of economic refugees from Europe after WWII. They weren't political refugees, because the war was over.
I wonder if many of those descendants are supporting our treatment of modern economic refugees?
23 Jan 2015 10:25:09am
I am one of the economic refugees from post war Italy. We were invited to this country by the australian government, on the condition that we work and learn english. There was no centrelink. In other words we had to assimilate. Todays illegal economic refugees- the boat arrivals-are out for the Centrelink/free housing gravy train. I've spoken to many in my area so I know this to be the case, they aint exactly shy about hiding their motivations. Whole families are on the Centrelink- disability pension for mum, carer payment for daughter, newstart for dad and family tax benefits for the other kids, in their dept of housing homes. Why work? This is a joke on the taxpayer, while the real refugees suffer in a camp.
23 Jan 2015 11:10:30am
Sam, well put.
It is often forgotten that post war migrants worked hard to assimilate, and did not cry foul at every turn.
More recent migrants would do well to look at the examples provided by Italian, Greek, Dutch, Yugoslav and other migrants. These migrants contributed to Australia's growth and did not seek to undermine the status quo.
23 Jan 2015 2:08:29pm
Yes, I'm one of those. If I could do it all again I wouldn't have come to Australia. As an isolated migrant who worked very hard at raising her status through education, I received far too much bullying, aggression and racist behaviour on the way to make it worth.
23 Jan 2015 2:30:07pm
So am I Momo- and like you I experienced the 'go back to where you came from" b/s. I submitted a post saying as much and more but it has not made it.
I finished up by saying I cannot understand the lack of compassion by those who shared similar experiences to asylum seekers.
But unlike you I do not regret coming here-there are more decent-caring-compassionate people in this country than rednecks- unfortunately like many good people everywhere they remain silent.
23 Jan 2015 4:44:39pm
Thank you Rob for your post. I have noticed that migrants tend to not speak out in case of reprisal or worse. The ones that are more integrated are actually the ones who speak truly how they feel.
23 Jan 2015 1:44:03pm
I am the daughter of one you would call an 'economic migrant". He tells me of the terrible consequences of war-of the death of friends blown up by a bomb- of his mother crying over a pair of shoes in a Red Cross parcel- of bombed out streets- of privation.
he tells me to show compassion to those who are escaping the same privations -those we now call asylum seekers.
I am so glad he is who he is.
Judi Wood:
23 Jan 2015 10:03:58am
How does one go about initiating a prosecution for crimes against humanity against the Australian government in the international court? The actual process? Can it be initiated by a citizen?
23 Jan 2015 10:25:26am
The first task is to find a crime.
23 Jan 2015 1:36:26pm
As you may see above at 9.41 am 23/1/2015, I have urged Julian Burnside to explain in detail why he believes the actions of Abbott, Morrison and Dutton contravene the provisions of Article 7 Crimes Against Humanity of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.
I have further urged Julian to put an information to the Office of the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court in the form of a petition that all like minded Australians can sign before he sends it to the Prosecutor.
There is nothing at all to stop you from providing an information of what you believe to be criminal behaviour under the Rome Statute to the office of the Prosecutor.
I have already done this concerning the behaviour of Mr Howard, Ms Vanstone and Mr Phillip Ruddock for their behaviour at the time of the death of a person we had come to regard as a member of our family.
I received a courteous and lengthy letter in reply and a promise that my allegations would be investigated.
I just think that the prosecutor's Office may be overwhelmed with such informations and, as a practical consideration, it may be much more effective if someone of Julian's standing were to submit the information as something with millions of Signatures of Australian citizens horrified by decades of depravity of their governments to thousands of refugees, in contravention of our nation's responsibilities under various pieces of international law.
David N:
23 Jan 2015 10:04:26am
Julian, I am just exhausted in my disgust and shame that we treat people at the level of concentration camp inmates who we imprison without trail in the hope they will die or see the wisdom of going back to their countries and being shot on sight.
That people like Dutton and Morrison see righteousness and Christian purity in their actions makes me wanting to see them being put on trial for their crimes against humanity at the ICC and one day they will be. They are Australia's shame. To applaud them makes us accessories to the fact in my opinion. I denounce them and their bankrupt policies with every ounce of my being. They are their policies they are not mine.
23 Jan 2015 10:20:00am
What utter nonsense David N.
David N:
23 Jan 2015 10:29:46am
Well, elementary what you think is nonsense is my truth. So be it.
23 Jan 2015 10:56:45am
Elementary, there's a lot of evidence been presented that is simply not nonsense. That makes your post nonsense. And pointless.
23 Jan 2015 10:05:17am
The White Australia policy prevented people from getting on leaky boats but now we are being replaced by non whites. Isn't it a crime to replace people?
23 Jan 2015 10:46:51am
Correct and in International law, replacing a race is prosecuted as Genocide.
23 Jan 2015 10:57:34am
Yes. Or maybe no. I wish I could understand the question.
23 Jan 2015 10:10:46am
Burnside is supporting those so called asylum seekers who have money to pat people smugglers.
Why do these people strive so much to come to Oz when there bare other countries they could live in, free from persecution? Also, there are about 50 countrioes that are Islamic so why don't the Muslim asylum seekers go to one of them?
Let's take genuine refugees from camps and send the queue jumers away.
The Other John:
23 Jan 2015 11:03:00am
What happens to nations when the West strips them of their educated, wealthy citizens? We are seeing the total destruction of civilised society in the middle east, and at the very time these regions need educated and strong citizens to stand up for their own weak and poor, we encourage them to instead run to safe havens of their own selection, whilst our own best and brightest are risking their lives to save what is left of society in the middle east.
The reality is that the majority if assylum seekers who bipass numerous other juridictions to come to Australia are doing so for economic reasons. These very same people had a duty to stand up for their own societies but they choose not to. What can we expect from these people once they are Australian citizens? Will they stand up for our values when they wouldnt for their own weak and poor?
23 Jan 2015 10:13:04am
At then end of the day, the issue - or fear, if you'd like to put it that way - is of unlimited arrivals overwhelming our ability to take them in an orderly fashion. This is happening in Europe. Despite their policies of zero immigration and supposedly tough approach to refugees and asylum seekers, European countries have no control. If you can make it to Europe - or even be picked up at sea - then you're in. You make a claim for asylum, it gets automatically rejected, but then you're told you can't be sent back so you can stay anyway. And so Europe's numbers of asylum seekers continue to swell - it's not just from North Africa, it's the thousands making their way from Asia and the Middle East too. Europe cannot control its borders and everyone knows it. We have seen that and we don't want it here. It's either get tough now or lose control. It's an unfortunate reality that these people suffer. All I can suggest is that we make conditions better, because abandoning mandatory detention MAY open the floodgates - we don't know for sure, but I don't think it's worth the gamble.
23 Jan 2015 11:00:38am
Do you actually have a long term solution other than head in the sand?
We could improve things elsewhere in the world, but our nasty government is cutting foreign aid.
23 Jan 2015 2:24:09pm
My response was aimed entirely at this problem in isolation. Because I didn't address the issues at the source doesn't give me a head in the sand mentality, no matter how much you may wish to read that in my comment.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 10:14:00am
What exactly do YOU think they're talking about, when England chips in to chat about "Plane Packaging"? Huh?
23 Jan 2015 10:16:32am
I think you underestimate most Australians Julian. Most people understand the horrible plight of the refugees and feel sorry for them. That does not mean that they want to let them into Australia though. There are a lot of countries that are undergoing collapse as their populations exceed the resources that the country can provide. The western world is only maintaining it quality of life at the moment by running up huge debts that led to the GFC and eventualy will lead to the collapse of the financial system.
Therefore, what I am getting at is there will be a lot more refugees in th future and very few countries in a position where they could take many in. Australia and other countries need to put some serious effort into solving the problems that are causing refugees rather than treating the symptoms. The best way would be to put some serious effort in to stabilising populations in africa where most of the countries are doubling in number every 20 years or less when they can't feed themselves now. In addition Australia needs to stop supporting Americas horible wars in the mideast, which tend to be the other main source of refugees.
Quite simply Australia is a very dry and environmentally fragile country which needs to stop its population growth and can not afford to take any more migrants of any kind.
severed head:
23 Jan 2015 12:07:28pm
Burnside and his ilk don't underestimate us at all. They actually hold us in contempt. He obviously has nothing new to say and should not be published again on the drum until all the other Australians have had a turn. If I'm at all interested in his pro bono advice, I'll follow him on twitter. You get what you pay for.
23 Jan 2015 10:16:33am
what will shock us ? ISIS home grown terror
some kid:
23 Jan 2015 10:39:42am
the key words there being "home grown"
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 10:56:05am
I think you're wrong there Jin. That's what we have been told to expect. What will shock us? Honesty.
23 Jan 2015 11:48:35am
AI and human right organisations/advocates made a bad decision of judgement that resulted in two beautiful people being killed in the Sydney siege that shook the nation Lehan. If you are happy with that then that's good on you. Honestly what else will shock us.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 1:36:45pm
Right. There it is. Tailor. Taylor. Tayrah. Now what's this little string and where did we first happen to see it.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 1:56:44pm
I remember back in the foggy past a little thing concerning Taylor on MTV.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 1:57:27pm
But what happened before that? I believe Kanye did something else.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 2:21:05pm
Oh. I know. The Nightingale.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 2:48:26pm
Which was, of course, about Denmark.
23 Jan 2015 10:17:26am
I agree, Mr. Burnside. I love your work. Of course, you will be jeered and insulted by many who only too willingly fall for the lies and contempt of our governments towards asylum seekers. Keep speaking the truth, Sir. Your integrity is like a deeply refreshing drink in a desert.
The Other John:
23 Jan 2015 11:04:27am
Integrity. Proudly sponsored by the Australian taxpayer.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 10:34:37am
Now I have to confess, I don't much like television but I did watch quite a lot of it when I was young. I suspect it's game shows you should keep your eye on this week.
23 Jan 2015 10:36:12am
If I had the power of veto to all of this Government's decisions concerning asylum seekers I would gladly use it. To be honest I think the Australian people have been handed so much misinformation combined with their fear of being inundated with a different religious culture. It is not a straight forward decision such as abolishing the death penalty where the majority stood out against it. I believe it is a combined responsibility of our leaders, judiciary and the media to lead by example.Just as occurred after the Second World War and Vietnam War, our Government made the decisions to take refugees bravely and the people were brought alongside with those decisions.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 10:36:13am
They might be running a little late though.
23 Jan 2015 10:41:58am
The UN Convention on Refugees and multitude of agreements has countries hamstrung by having to work to lofty principles enshrined into law. Countries are faced with protecting their borders as demanded by their citizens while navigating the legal complications principles developed in a sterile environment far removed from the practicalities of the real world. Those the agreements seek to protect are the very people that are being victimised by the bobbing and weaving of Governments around the legal systems.
Imprisoning people because their status is undetermined is abhorrent, but where is the UN in all of this? After all, this is their convention so why don't they have powers to negotiate with Governments to modify the application of their various conventions to provide better outcomes for all concerned?
Responsibility for the refugee situation worldwide is the responsibility of the UN. We see plenty of political preening and posturing. We hear volumes of wind bagging from members in UN forums. But overall the hubris doesn't resolve a damn thing. Any solution for refugees can only be initiated by negotiation and the UN need to understand that while they sit on their principles people are suffering. Stop talking and start negotiating to get some real outcomes or Counties such as Australia will continue to be running around in circles trying to match the ideals of the UN with the realities of the world.
23 Jan 2015 10:46:08am
Please, Please prosecute them; this treatment of asylum seekers is not just criminal, it is morally indefensible, it is wrong! wrong! wrong! How and when will it end. I thank civic leaders such as Julian Burnside and there are any others who make public commentary- and with each incident look sadder and desperate-but please don't give up. Thank You
23 Jan 2015 10:48:04am
Thank you for your analysis -it is appalling that this Government refuses to keep us informed as to what is happening and I agree by continually calling them illegal many Australians I am afraid believe this. My husband and I are very ashamed of many Australians for not speaking out against the treatment of these very vulnerable people-people with needs just like the rest of the human race. Where is our humanity? They only wanted to be somewhere safe for God's sake Locking people up under these primitive conditions can only make people hate the world I know my husband I would.
23 Jan 2015 10:48:36am
Thank you Julian Burnside
Our refugee treatment reflects on all of us,the public,the media and our political social humanitarian decline as far as a crime by association goes.
When good men do nothing...
Imo refugees after initial Asio clearance and ID confirmation should have no need of detention and should have the right of free movement till their refugee status is processed,even the right to hop in another boat and sail on unhindered.
Container housing compounds as are used in Europe,with free movement for the inhabitants in the community are a viable option.
Limited employment to pay for some of the expenses could be allowed and regulated to avoid exploitation.
Arbitrary detention is a crime!
Guilty on all counts.
The shock effect has hit home when a Morrison gets considered as ersatz PM.
How much morally lower can we go.
Leaving Australia to get off the far right slippery slope is at least still a legal option for me as a Aussie,
Economic refugees too,have every right to seek a better life and take their chances at the high seas or on foot crossing borders and risking the legal consequences even if the legality of the anti refugee state measures are questionable imo.
People smugglers are economic opportunists,like some unregulated not so legal taxi service...
I do hope that arbitrary detention and crimes against humanity like the Irak war participation etc will become a real court issue for our political representatives regardless of party association.
Labor is complicit and just as guilty as the LNP,a Nuremberg defense does not apply.
Shame on you Australia
23 Jan 2015 3:28:03pm
Totally agree. Thank you for your post.
23 Jan 2015 10:51:30am
If the refugees had never thrown their id and passports over the side then maybe they would have been processed a lot faster.
23 Jan 2015 12:23:45pm
That's right, Farout. They would have had their passports in Indonesia. What are they hiding?
Notice how this tactic by asylum seekers is never convincingly supported or adequately explained by their advocates.
23 Jan 2015 1:07:49pm
Who told you they did that?
Ah, the Abbott government.
Must be true then.
23 Jan 2015 10:57:25am
Thank you Julian Burnside for keeping this matter before the attention of the Australian public together with the illegality of the Abbott government's actions, with seemingly the full support of Shorten's LNP Lite, I wait to see just how the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court addresses Andrew Wilkie's referal of the Abbott Cabinet to the ICC, submitted with your assistance.
23 Jan 2015 11:00:34am
The very existence of these prisons on Manus, Nauru and Christmas Islands is utterly abhorrent and the existence of prisons no longer used in remote parts of Australia are similarly abhorrent. There is no reason whatsoever why these people should be being punished for the "crime" of wanting lives without danger, without being exposed to extremists.
Australia in its relationship with refugees and asylum seekers utterly disgusts me.
23 Jan 2015 11:02:27am
It always surprises me that most of those who are so supportive of boat people who seek to get/buy their way around our immigration laws by whatever means they can, are the same people who are the first to scream blue murder about tax avoiders who seek to get/buy their way around (among other things) our tax laws.
Can I expect Burnside to voice support for tax evaders (of others of course) in the same way as he voices support for boat people?
And then there are all of my rights that the state seeks to curtail. Can I expect Burnside and his ilk to represent me in challenging the state's fining me and suspending my licence for speeding?
Mike of Ulster:
23 Jan 2015 12:20:16pm
Interesting point Spud.
A refugee from another land, with relatives already in Australia, has two legal options to get asylum status here.
The first, is his relatives can sponsor him in - paying several thousand in fees to Immigration just to look at the application, and several thousand to migration agents to prepare it. He's unlikely to get in, as places are heavily over-subscribed.
The second, is he can fly-then-apply (for refugee status). If he can't buy a plane ticket because Qantas refuse to sell to er Afghanis, he has to sail. The latter, around 90% of asylum applications succeeded.
Just wondering how much of the outrage against boat arrivals - is from the migration agents and their trade association?
Their fees are exorbitant , people look for ways round them. And as there is a legal way round them - why should people not use it? Why should government ban them from using it? Why should You, Sir, complain if they use it? They have every right to, and you know it.
23 Jan 2015 1:30:09pm
So it is (according to you) legal (and OK) to arrive here, having destroyed your identity papers so that you cannot either be checked or sent back to where you came from? Funny, that sounds about as supportable as arguing that it was legal (and OK) to avoid paying tax because you destroyed all records of your income. But seeing as that no doubt occurred to you, I assume that you too would be supporting Burnside et al defending tax cheats... or didn't that occur to you after all?
23 Jan 2015 6:16:23pm
There are reasons why refugees do not have ID papers. The papers they destroy are fakes provided by the 'people smugglers' because it has not been possible for these people to get papers.
Why would anyone risk taking a leaky boat with all its risks and costs instead of coming by plane?
It is not the same as tax avoidance at all. Tax avoidance is a deliberate deception, but there are ways to do it legally. Records are doctored to comply with certain regulations. It happens in Oz now. Hence the use of tax havens.
It is legal to send large sum of money to safe places, but not for people to seek safety for themselves unless they have certain piece of paper.
Enter the 'people smugglers' who can provide such pieces of paper to people why actually have no access to such pieces of paper.
If they have access, why do they not simply get them and fly in more cheaply, without the risk and cost of coming by boat?
To read some posts here, it all seems just a matter of going to a travel agent and getting them to make all the arrangements to get these people to Oz. It is not as easy as it sounds to people in Oz who are able travel at will.
23 Jan 2015 6:32:45pm
Actually they do have valid identity papers when they fly to Indonesia, but destroy them after getting on boats to improve their chances of being taken at their word as legitimate refugees. I saw this exposed on an ABC Four Corners program no less.
23 Jan 2015 11:03:15am
Nice piece Julian. And if I may add the '5700' submissions against former Immigration Minister Scott Morrison's controversial bill last year which could allow Australia to neglect its human rights obligations under international law should says something about the Abbott government's failure to address past wrongs.
23 Jan 2015 11:04:59am
Julian, thanks for your article and for your fervent argument on this issue and against this policy. As for how long will it take Australian's to wake up to why this is wrong, very wrong, is an important question. When I look back to the last time we had an arbitrary detention policy in the country, under the White Australia policy and non-recognition of Aboriginal peoples, it could be a very long time.
After all it took over 60 years for us to wake up to the fact that the arbitrary detaining of Aboriginal peoples and to recognize that they were not just Australian citizens, but First Australian Citizens. No wait, we are still waiting for that to be done in the Constitution, aren't we. And the way we are going that could take some time yet.
I made the mistake once in believing that our Judicial system in this country was built on the back of a right to a fair and open trial. And that would you could only be imprisoned after being found guilty beyond reasonable doubt and where you were given a specific length of detention. I now realise that I was wrong on all of that.
But what makes this detention of asylum seekers worse than what was previously practiced against the Aboriginal peoples of this land is that we pay other countries and private industry to do it for us in secret. And not just other countries, but other countries who are largely improvised and with a far worse judicial system than our own.
An open and accountable government we are not. Which makes you have to question the very fundamentals of our democracy. It seems too many people are quite happy to sell off our democracy in exchange for their own political biases without even thinking of the longer term consequences.
23 Jan 2015 11:10:30am
Jesus was highly critical of those who oppress people in nasty situations.
If Abbott, Morrison and/or Dutton claim to follow the teachings of Jesus then their interpretation is creatively edited.
Mike of Ulster:
23 Jan 2015 12:11:44pm
Abbott, Morrison etc do claim to follow the teachings of Jesus.
The key thing is whether Jesus would say they follow his teachings.
& we have enough evidence from his proxies - to take a shrewd guess, at what Jesus might make of Mr Morrison and his persistent church-going.
23 Jan 2015 1:02:37pm
Mike, I have a feeling that they might be more followers of the Old Testament and the New Testament with the teachings of Christ in it.
Although it also may relate to the fact that under Christianity you can commit all sorts of sins and than simply go and get them forgiven by the Priest or Minister. It is no wonder Christianity gained so many followers knowing that no matter what you did you could just go and ask for forgiveness. And than of course go and do it again and than go back and get forgiveness again. Not a bad system, aye.
23 Jan 2015 3:04:49pm
I think you should study up on your Christian theology claims, John. You're showing your ignorance on the subject.
23 Jan 2015 4:45:08pm
Clete, what ignorance is that. I may not be a reader of the bible per say. But I have a fairly good understanding of the teachings of Jesus, or at least what were told were his teachings. I also grew up where we we went to church and off to the confessional to get your sins forgiven. Is it not the Christian tradition to have the priest or minister hear your confession before you die.
If you look at the history of the time when Christianity was spread across Europe and the world, when the world was largely illiterate, I would say one of the big selling points was that Christ through the Priest or minister would forgive you of your sins so you could enter heaven. As I said not too bad a selling point for those fearful as most are of what happens after death.
I don't have a problem with the forgiving part as we all at some time need to forgive to some extent the transgression of each other. Otherwise we only have the tribal culture where we can have generational pay back for previous transgressions which may include murder.
But the problem is when you can have your sins forgiven and than simply go and continue to commit them over and over again. Just like say the priest who molests a child, gets his sins, his transgression forgiven and continue to molest other children. Or, you could say like the business persons who rips off his clients, gets forgiveness for his transgressions through the confessional box and than go and do the same the next day.
It is not that I am saying that the teachings of Christ don't have a lot going for them. But when we look around the world they are not put into practice very well including by a lot of people who profess to be Christians. Sadly there are far more hypocrites who call themselves Christians than good extempore's of their faith.
23 Jan 2015 3:26:39pm
The ironic bit is that Jesus was from the Middle East. He would have looked like many of these refugees and perhaps, who knows, some of them have his genes. I wonder if there is a statue or painting of Jesus in Morrisons church or house? Sadly, it probably represents Jesus as a blond man as so many do in our western culture.
23 Jan 2015 11:14:10am
Julian you have never hidden from your politics so there cannot be suggestions of a hidden agenda since it is quite transparent. The endeavour you put into your cause celebre is certainly focused on the Liberal Party.
Perhaps you could include any members of any other political parties who played any part in having so called illegal arrivals shifted around for political advantage. Are both Rudd and Gillard devoid of any blame at Manus Island? Given the UNHCR report of October 2013 it would seem not.
Where are your public exhortations for action on behalf of the Royhinya people arriving in Thailand? Chinese minorities would probably also appreciate your human rights enthusiasm.
What about a call for the PNG Government to be taken to task internationally for what ultimately is their failing? It would seem much of the failing of the Australian Government is along the lines of failing to demand and sustain satisfactory performance from the PNG Govt.
There are some who might see your selective targeting of three individual political opposites as yet another use of "refugees" as political and social tools.
23 Jan 2015 11:18:38am
Okay, here we go again. Anybody want to answer the questions?
1. How many boat people should Australia accept each year?
2. What do we do with the ones who come after we've reached that quota?
3. Where will they be housed while awaiting processing? Your place?
4. Which government programs should we cut to pay for them to be housed, fed, clothed, be given welfare?
5. Who wants to give unskilled, non-English speaking, traumatised, violent criminals a job?
6. Should we also open our borders to smugglers who wish to bring drugs? guns? criminals?
Please answer the questions. Then we can negotiate on numbers.
Mike of Ulster:
23 Jan 2015 11:59:55am
I have already answered those question, vp - I remember your name.
you didn't have much to say afterwards, that time either.
Peter of Perth:
23 Jan 2015 7:44:25pm
Mike- Yes, but what were your answers? The questions are similar to ones I have asked for years but not once has anyone answered so here's your chance.
23 Jan 2015 7:46:43pm
Just try answering 1 and 2, I haven't seen your responses to such questions and I doubt others here have either.
Peter Carroll:
23 Jan 2015 11:20:26am
The crux of this whole debate is whether all boat arrivals are genuine refugees. the facts show they are not . Over 1200 Sri Lankan's have been sent back because, by their own testimony, they are not refugees. Our refugee program was under attack by people smugglers/human traffickers, preying on the gullible. Countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, India, and Iran, are not nice places to live, by western standards. But they are not ravaged by war, natural disasters, or famine. People who avail themselves of the services of human traffickers, to try to enter Australia from these countries, are trying to circumvent our immigration laws by posing as refugees. The result is that, some genuine refugees, are caught up as well and excluded.
Mike of Ulster:
23 Jan 2015 12:03:50pm
Good onya Peter - keep repeating that one, keep hammering them with that argument. I guess if you repeat it often enough, and ignore the posters who quote the 90% statistic, you will get the public to believe what you want.
that 90% statistic's true btw - that's what % of boat arrivals got granted refugee status, when Immigration was processing their requests, something it no longer does.
Anyway Peter, keep on hammering that line - your pal below is doing a good job with the "queue jumpers" line - and we'll have the public believing what we want soon.
23 Jan 2015 12:15:58pm
Then why did Labor Foreign Minister Bob Carr claim that at least 70% of boatpeople are economic migrants not refugees?
23 Jan 2015 1:11:33pm
Being an economic refugee is not a crime. Australia has welcomed thousands of them in the past. But they were white and Christian.
23 Jan 2015 2:52:34pm
Carr said "economic migrant" not "economic refugee" (whatever that is supposed to mean). In other words, at least 70% of boatpeople claiming to be refugees are not really refugees fleeing persecution. I assume that as Foreign Minister at the time he would've know what he was talking about.
Peter of Perth:
23 Jan 2015 7:42:27pm
mike- I seem to remember, about 2-3 years ago a visiting female UN rep said from Sri Lanka that there was no reason anyone should be trying to leave Sri Lanka seeking asylum. Now, if we can't accept what the UN's rep says. who can we believe?
Peter of Perth:
23 Jan 2015 7:39:43pm
thinker- And they didn't pay criminals to bring them to the back door, they applied through the correct channels and were accepted, a huge difference don't you think? BS about coloiur, religion or anything else is just that, BS.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 11:20:57am
Now all of you who write under a different name, an anonymous name, a pen name. You are operating from a very different place, one of much greater susceptibility. Dumb.
jo holmes:
23 Jan 2015 11:24:05am
attn: Julian Burnside - Go for it, prosecute these people.
It is not illegal to seek asylum.
Whatever political party is or has been in charge of Australia has the responsibility to treat people as human beings with established legal rights. Everyone is a citizen of the world.
Australia needs to accept our responsibility and be fair, we are rich enough to be generous and as world citizens we have the responsibility to abide by the UNHCR guidelines and the law. We have the responsibility to assist the disposed, the tortured, the hunted .... refugees.
As a country we are rightly anti terrorist and yet by our imprisonment and treatment of these refugees who have arrived by boat we create psychological trauma, physical suffering, isolation and it's torture. In turn this probably creates resentment and anxiety which are the kernels of hate, which for some may lead to acts of terrorism. Counterproductive in the extreme, I say.
23 Jan 2015 12:59:39pm
Torture is being shocked with a car battery.
Torture is being waterboarded.
Torture is having someone repeatedly pull the trigger on an empty gun next to your head while you are blindfolded.
Torture is watching you family raped and murdered.
Torture is having your limbs broken with a pickaxe handle.
Torture is not being housed, fed, given medical attention with the option of settlement in a new country or going back to your own.
23 Jan 2015 11:24:30am
Clearly there are some valid questions to be asked regarding our operations on Manus - the deaths referred to would top the list. But as per usual I see no concern from the author about the refugees who cannot get to this country because they do not have the cash to pay people smugglers and/or will not take the risk - they simply lose their spot to queue jumpers. Add to that the fact that a proportion of those in detention are found not to be legitimate refugees; at best they are economic refugees. Now I don't really blame somwone from trying to get here in this manner - after all if I was in the same situation I might try it too. That doesn't mean we should accept nor encourage such actions - and our current policies in this area are specifically designed to discourage such actions. In that way we can get back to a managable situation - and that is we accept refugees who have applied through the normal channels, been accepted as such and waited their turn like everyone else. And the people smuggler trade withers and dies.
23 Jan 2015 12:00:11pm
Don't you mean the one death.
Have a look at the number of brothers who die whilst in WA prisons. I know it's whattaboutery but do try to keep things in perspective.
Mike of Ulster:
23 Jan 2015 12:01:19pm
Well done Firthy, you've learned your "queue jumpers" lines well. Your delivery style is improving, sounds much more convincing.
Cheque's in the mail; good lad.
23 Jan 2015 11:34:29am
I can't possibly imagine what it must be like to feel so dissatisfied or so oppressed that I felt the need to pay tens of thousands of dollars to people smugglers and risk my life to travel around the world to somewhere better.
I also understand that having spent all that money and time, taken all those risks and got so close to their goal, that some will feel frustrated at not being immediately given what they demand.
What I can't understand however, is their belief that vandalising the facilities set up to house them during processing, rioting and violence towards the staff and each other or something as ridiculously theatrical as sewing their lips together will convince us that they are the sort of people we want to invite into our country.
It's a fairytale myth that will never happen, but just imagine how many real, genuine refugees stuck in a tent in the desert because they are not rich enough to pay a people smuggler we would be able to help if we weren't forced to spend the billions it costs us when so many people try to bribe and force their way around the system.
I would imagine that a genuine refugee, while not overjoyed by the wait while being processed, would be happy that they were safe from whatever danger they fled.
The violence and vandalism we are seeing seems a hell of a lot like people who don't think they received value for their money and are willing to do whatever they think necessary to get what they demand.
23 Jan 2015 11:34:52am
This whole thing says more about us than them.
23 Jan 2015 12:02:51pm
No, no, no.
Quite the contrary. It says vastly more about "them" than it does about us ... and it says that most of those "thems" ... who indulge in such vile loutish behaviour in detention ... are really not the kind of people we want to take in as citizens.
Australia is a very fair, reasonable, non-racist country. Shame on those trying to claim otherwise simply because we are finally denying refugee status to thuggish and/or histrionic fraudulent economic asylum seekers.
23 Jan 2015 12:28:01pm
My sentiment exactly.
23 Jan 2015 2:26:24pm
Rubbish. I had an ear bashing from a refugee who lived in a camp in Austria for many years. He described that they kept the camp clean, grew gardens and were just relieved to have escaped the terror. He had absolutely no time for this type of behaviour.
Peter Mckinlay:
23 Jan 2015 11:37:44am
Its not that Australians stopped caring, its just that we are worn out by a bastard government that not care for us!
23 Jan 2015 11:45:07am
What will it take to shock me? Burnside speaking some sense for a start.
23 Jan 2015 11:48:25am
I'm shocked by those two deaths. The Australian government failed abysmally in its duty of care.
I'm shocked by reports about people sewing their lips together - they are clearly desperate.
What is driving offshore processing? My understanding is that it's some kind of device to stay within the letter of the law while processing the applications of people who arrive in Australia by irregular means, without being forced to accept people who can't be proven not to be bona fide refugees into Australia.
Have you considered campaigning to get the laws changed so the incentive for offshore processing disappears? It's very expensive for the government and the government is in an intrinsically weaker position to manage off-shore detention centres.
Aussie Sutra:
23 Jan 2015 11:49:27am
If they arrive by boat, they will not ever be settled in Australia. That's how it is. The asylum seekers on Manus Island have precisely what they asked for...ASYLUM. They don't get to have tantrums about where they get their asylum. As I understand it, they will be offered residency of New Guinea, which is far more than the Refugee treaty requires.
While I'm sad for the individuals who have seen their personal plans go awry because Australia stopped being a soft touch, we cannot go back to just waving in everybody who arrives with a sad story. There are 6 billion sad stories out there in the world, and quite a few here at home that could be dealt with as well.
My advice to the current and future Australian governments is that we need to slow down immigration to a trickle and reduce our population, we should only be accepting people who can demonstrate a good fit with our culture, values and attitudes, and refugees should be only ever be given TPVs and never ever a path to permanent residency.
23 Jan 2015 1:52:43pm
Nicely said.
We have an obligation to protect those who are in harm, this we are doing.
Once it is safe for these people to return to their homeland, they should be returned.
The antics of some of them just strengthen my feeling that they should never be allowed into this country
23 Jan 2015 11:54:45am
Could not agree more - and the droll argument that this is about breaking a business model to save lives - what rubbish! As if the smugglers wont find other destinations and opportunities. This is horrific, and I feel Mr Burnside the public feels disempowered to do anything, because despite the conversations on social media and the obvious disdain for this terrible treatment of human beings, government goes on ruthlessly; self congratulating all the while on fulfilling a 3 word slogan - "stop the boats"
23 Jan 2015 11:55:41am
Mr Burnside, approximately 200 asylum seekers living in Australia have been charged with various crimes over the last year, including the most serious types of offending. (dept immigration figures). Does that tell you why maybe you have so little public support.
23 Jan 2015 1:14:13pm
How many non-asylum seekers have been charged with crimes?
The Other John:
23 Jan 2015 1:34:58pm
23 Jan 2015 2:15:16pm
The point of your question?
23 Jan 2015 12:09:02pm
What would shock me? A genuinely fair solution to Australian refugee intake. No such solution has been proposed.
Why shock me? If a cause is just and there's a reasonably clear path of action to change then you don't need to shock me or the rest of Australia. We'd simply fall over ourselves to help it happen.
There's a big question mark over the justness of the cause of refugees sitting in Manus. Let's leave that aside for a second though. We don't have a reasonably clear path of action here. Specifically, it would be a catastrophe if irregular maritime arrivals who were pregnant or under 18 were treated favourably compared to the rest, because it would immediately incentivise getting pregnant or taking your kids with you on the leaky, too-small fishing boats.
QC Burnside, to you it is all about the inalienable human right, but to most Australians who really try and think about this it's about practical limitations. All the current applicants for refuge in Australia could easily be resettled in Australia pending a relatively quick processing proving genuine refugee status. A vast majority of the world's population could be considered legitimate refugees, given the atrocious human rights records in other countries with enormous populations. At some point though, the sheer numbers would be too many for Australia.
What then? So set limits. Set a flexible maximum number and try to accept no more than that number each year as fairly as possible. The only way to ensure that is possible is to disincentivise irregular maritime arrival as much as possible in as humane way as possible. Right now it's not nice. The Julia Gillard Malaysia exchange suggestion was, I thought, a masterstroke in the right direction, as it fulfilled both criteria of being a huge disincentive to get on a boat while being very humane. Sadly that was not to be thanks only to stupid partisanship.
Andrew McIntosh:
23 Jan 2015 12:15:19pm
"It should shock us to know how comprehensively the government has lied to us about Manus."
No, because people believe what they want to believe and that's how the government gets away with it. It doesn't matter how many times you tell people that these refugees are not illegal, it will be ignored. You can explain patiently, you can shout it at the top of your voice, you can provide proof after proof and it still wont make a speck of difference.
The levels of callousness being displayed by government and it's supporters is enough to convince me that this absurd cruel treatment of refugees is the norm from now on, that it's going to go on and that it will continue to curry approval and votes from the Australian public. The horrorists have won.
23 Jan 2015 12:18:19pm
Yes, desperate people do desperate things, but breaking Australias laws and then trying on hunder strikes and sewing lips together to try and get around the law is self imposed. If the refugee was desperate to get away from their home, then they should be happy with wherever they are rehomed. Problem is, they all want the easy life associated with the social security, housing and all the other marvels Australia provides.
People say: so. why shouldn't they want a easy life, living off the blood and sweat of hard working Australians. We I think that just answered your question...
23 Jan 2015 1:15:24pm
Prove that "they all want the easy life associated with the social security, housing and all the other marvels Australia provides".
23 Jan 2015 6:09:14pm
Athinker. An example: Just 9 per cent of Afghan adults have a job and 94 per cent receive benefits.
More research and less 'thinking' please.
23 Jan 2015 12:21:45pm
Reading the same old comments over and over the ABC drum really does need a freshen up. It's either of to Manus Island to visit Julian's queue jumpers or the climate change zealots have us drowning in a rising ocean or fried in our beds.
But the Tony Abbott saga with Mungo, Paula and friends has even reached the point where LNP man Larry Pickering is calling for Tony's head.
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:44:16pm
At least we can agree that reading the same old comments needing a freshen up, gbe.
I might ask you to explain your use of the term zealots in reference to those with whom the science agrees.
23 Jan 2015 12:31:42pm
So is this kidnap?
23 Jan 2015 12:31:44pm
Over 2000 boats and 40,000 people arived here under labor if nothing was done about this there would be hundreds of thousands arriving every year.
What next?
Kieran Lee:
23 Jan 2015 1:38:10pm
And AP, how many arrived by plane?
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:45:27pm
Good question. 97% of illegal immigrants, Kieran Lee.
Tim-Tam Monster:
23 Jan 2015 1:52:49pm
Are you asking what will happen next in 40, 50 or 100 years' time? The way the present global-economic system is causing more chaos and turmoil in human affairs, I'll leave that to your imagination.
23 Jan 2015 12:34:11pm
Would the learned counsel please employ his expertise and point out the specific provisions of the 1951 UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees which (a) require or mandate permanent third country resettlement of all Convention refugees, and (b) allow Convention refugees a free choice of their country of resettlement. Will the learned counsel not rest until all agree with him, and open the borders of Australia to everyone with a sad story - and to hell with the costs, numbers, the economy, the sustainability and the social cohesion?
23 Jan 2015 12:39:07pm
While we are at it, would the learned counsel also point out the specific provisions of the 1951 UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees which have been incorporated into Australia's domestic, law and accordingly are legally binding in the Australian jurisdiction?
23 Jan 2015 12:39:17pm
While we are at it, would the learned counsel also point out the specific provisions of the 1951 UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees which have been incorporated into Australia's domestic, law and accordingly are legally binding in the Australian jurisdiction?
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:46:50pm
I assume your posts confirm your belief in the UN convention then el-viejo?
Amethyst Cat:
23 Jan 2015 12:41:56pm
Ordinary Australians are wearily trying to oppose the inequity being meted out by Federal and State governments in their own country. Let's get our own house in order, then we can take up the banner for these people.
23 Jan 2015 12:44:18pm
While the media doesn't change and becomes liberated, either will the opinion of most Australians.
23 Jan 2015 12:44:52pm
It was such a shame that the Rudd Government unwound the Pacific solution after the 2007 election.
23 Jan 2015 12:45:37pm
23 Jan 2015 2:50:16pm
Soft. We have every right to protect our resources and way of life. We have every right to protect our borders. History is full of conflict, and it will never end. Our Governments role is to protect our interests, not be a global good Samaritan. There is no easy, tidy solution to this. Be too nice and we will have many more people targeting Australia. And it will just keep escalating - there are millions seeking new opportunities.
23 Jan 2015 3:02:06pm
Don't know entirely, but we ain't suckers!!
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:49:06pm
I share your vicarious shame, artofthefirstpeople. I'm sure further replies to you will confirm your fears.
Cymru coch:
23 Jan 2015 12:48:49pm
The problem is the demands of these people and the guidance they are given by their advocates don't they realise that starving your self to death is one that was played out years ago by the IRA and raised no sympathy from the world wide public then . And who's stupid idea was it to offer their organs starving your self causes the body to shut down, organs first and they turn to pulp. And dare I raise it the majority of these individuals are from Pakistan where is there the reports of Pakistan being at war except with its self . No I would suggest the motivation to enter Australia is economical which raises no sympathy at all .
23 Jan 2015 12:57:45pm
Thanks to the compassion and decency of the Fraser Government in 1977 South Australian's can now celebrate having His Excellency the Honourable Hieu Van Le as the Governor of South Australia.
Mike (the other one):
23 Jan 2015 2:02:19pm
All very well and good Dave but what could he have done to get his own country back on track?
Mike (the other one):
23 Jan 2015 12:59:35pm
What shocks me Julian is the fact that people can wreck one part of the planet then simply move on to the next part, without a thought, and wreck it. High time they started fixing their social, religious and breeding problems before the whole planet ends up the same as the worst parts of it.
mike (the real one):
23 Jan 2015 1:42:48pm
Hear, hear!
23 Jan 2015 1:06:40pm
Who to believe? Julian Burnside or Tony Abbott and friends?
Do any of them have a record of lying?
23 Jan 2015 1:18:01pm
What in our BROKEN JUSTICE SYSTEM.
Artful Dodger:
23 Jan 2015 1:24:45pm
'For those who've come across the seas
We've boundless plains to share'
So says our National Anthem!!
23 Jan 2015 1:25:32pm
Two things.
First, the duty of care. My understanding is that "security" on Manus is provided by a private contractor. That isn't good enough Australia. As a country, we are responsible for asylum seekers and their treatment and to hive off an important activity like the well-being of your charges is abrogation of responsibility. We own the problem, so we have to deal with it. None of this arm's length bulldust.
Second. Whilst asylum seekers have the right to seek protection and eventually settle in Australia, they do not have the right to blackmail us and make no mistake, that is what they're doing. Maybe desperate times call for desperate measures, but the Australian public don't respond well to threats or blackmail, which may go some way in answering Mr Burnside's question.
23 Jan 2015 1:26:17pm
Julian, how do we start that prosecution in the International Criminal Court? That's a case I would gladly donate dollars to.
The Other John:
23 Jan 2015 3:50:30pm
We already do, Sandy. It is called "tax" paid into collective revenue that then gets allocated for such noble things as refugee advocate lawyers and such.
Or is tax only for the rich people to pay?
23 Jan 2015 1:27:19pm
They should do a better job
23 Jan 2015 1:27:54pm
This matter of how to address the plight of refugees has been going on now for decades.
Somehow we dealt with it better in the earlier days. Now anyone wanting to come to Oz is demonised and considered to be a threa, especially if they seek to come by boat. .
The Governor of SA is one such boat person who defies the xenophobia and distrust we see so dominant in Oz in the C21st.
It is frightening to see the blatant racism displaced in these pages. And the complete lack of understanding of the circumstances of their coming. Not to mention the complete lack of sympathy. And lack o any humane solution.
The demand, for example, that all refugees have identity papers is too often quite unrealistic. So is this notion of country-hopping.
People talk about' inviting' refugees to come with week border protection. They ignore the strong driving forces which compel refugees to flee their own country and seek refuge elsewhere. And not a place which is already flooded with refugees.
One of those forces which drives them is the policies of rich Western countries which invade these countries and create the chaos which destroys the lives of ordinary people. Then they are punished for wanting to have the kind of life we enjoy. There are those in these pages who think all these troubles are the fault of the refugees themselves.
Think about the fact that 1% of the world's population has as much wealth as the other 99%. There are those who think that is a great idea, something to aspire to, even to achieve at the expense of others - and at the expense of the environment.
So there are those who deride the "bleeding hearts". And well they might, but for all the wrong reasons. The problem is that none of us has come up with a humane solution, not even Abbott. Rudd added to the problem when he tried to follow the dictates of the polls and the lobbyists who pointed out that most refugees under Howard eventually came to Oz. Rudd's solution: Don't ever let them come to Oz. And Abbott seized the idea with glee. Shame on all of us.
The name of Oz, the land of the free offering freedom and wealth...is being dragged in the mud.
We should be able to do better than that.
23 Jan 2015 2:42:04pm
"The demand, for example, that all refugees have identity papers is too often quite unrealistic."
It is realistic when it is well documented that boat people are coached to throw their documents over board to make assessment of their character more difficult.
Your ignorance is astounding.
23 Jan 2015 3:41:52pm
The fact is, Elementary, that often the papers thrown overboard are fakes provided by the 'smugglers' because papers are not always available in the country of origin.
When people flee their burning house, they are not always able to grab the wallet and the photo albums.
When I was travelling in the early '70s, there were many students from wealthy countries travelling with fists full of Eurail passes and student ID cards. You know how it works: "This one has expired? How about this one?"
Don't call me ignorant. I have known young people who fled from SE Asia in the early 1990s and came by boat. Their relatives had been murdered for being intellectuals: Doctors, engineers...They feared drowning and attacks by sharks. Girls were dressed as boys in fear of pirates.
Christians from Iran packed themselves into overloaded cars and drove overland, hiding in attics along the way, until they were able to cross to Oz, traumatised by their experience.
I have read articles by Julian Burnside and Robert Manne and statements by the Greens...
And you want to talk about bits of paper!
Disco Graham:
23 Jan 2015 5:26:37pm
Tiresias. 'When people flee their burning house, they are not always able to grab the wallet and the photo albums'. Really? I doubt most if not any of those at Manus were in such a desperate hurry. It takes a while to arrange passports and air tickets to Indonesia. It's not that Australians are less compassionate; there just less gullible now.
23 Jan 2015 5:51:13pm
If to come by plane is so easy, Disco, why do people risk their lives to come by boat, knowing they will be put into detention for umpteen years?
And why do they not have time - or opportunity - to arrange passports, visas, plane tickets, etc. ?
Perhaps their only available travel agent is a people smuggler.
Perhaps the authorities where they come from are more interested in putting them in gaol - or worse.
As for gullibility, it seems Oz has been sucked in by organised xenophobia.
Disco Graham:
23 Jan 2015 6:31:50pm
Tiresias. The trip to Indonesia ('all the passports, visas, plane tickets, etc. ) are sorted in their country of origin. The success rate for boat arrivals was very high, hence the choice to take the trip. Also, the opportunity, for many, to dispose of any identification before reaching Australia was also a motivation.
I also believe labelling Australia, where 1 in 4 are overseas born, xenophobic is wrong. Sure there are those uncomfortable with the rapid influx of foreigners from every culture on earth. However, it is relatively mild compared to the attitudes of many other societies if faced with the same migration. Just ask your SE Asian friends about the attitudes of their countries.
23 Jan 2015 2:45:03pm
The fact that we're still having this ongoing discussion proves the fact that that no easy answers. Apart from that, I'm in total disagreement with everything else that you've written.
Does the fact that we're discussing peoples of other races or religions make the conversation "racist"?
Refugees + identity papers + unrealistic. Really? ANY identification would be a help if you wished to migrate to another country - unless you had criminal intentions and had falsified your story.
"There are those in these pages who think all these troubles are the fault of the refugees themselves." In many cases, that's true. They either did nothing to change their situation in their own country (i.e. ran away) or were on the losing side. I can understand the vanquished wishing to leave, for fear of recriminations, but do we really want these people? What crimes might have they committed in their own country?
"Now anyone wanting to come to Oz is demonised and considered to be a threa, especially if they seek to come by boat."
They have no identification. Perhaps they're a threat, perhaps not. They need to be checked out and if it takes 2-3 years, too bad. It's not as though they're a priority. They may think they are and that may explain some of their behaviour, but in the entire scheme of things, they're a bit of a nuisance.
Perhaps, as an exercise, you might like to sail in a small boat towards Japan and just outside their territorial waters, throw your passport and all other identification overboard and then make for the nearest Japanese port. Let us know how you get on?
23 Jan 2015 5:36:44pm
Tiresias. At least Australia is doing something significant. Can you explain why other rich countries such as Japan and Korea do virtually nothing to help refugees? For example, in 2013 Japan dealt with 3,777 applications for asylum, and only granted it to six people. Korea is even worse.
It's about time more pressure was put on such rich nations to share the load and more pressure taken off the already refugee fatigued Western nations. Let's share diversity if it's so great.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 1:39:33pm
I think keep on the look out for simple, pat answers.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 1:41:06pm
Now I must say that I suspect that whoever "narrowly wins" Queensland will have done a Deal Of The Weevil.
David Hill:
23 Jan 2015 1:44:14pm
Simple fix for the boat problem , remove all the refugees in Indonesia and the new ones that turn up in Indonesia and bring them to Australia by plane ..process them in Australia ..the ones who are not legitimate fly them home ..the ones who are get to stay . No more drownings and no more spending billions on cruel detention .
23 Jan 2015 2:03:27pm
David, I heard that idea put forward by Clive Palmer before the last federal election. We should seriously do it.
Run $800 return flights between Indo and Melbourne, rather than having them fork out $10-15k to some dodgy people smuggling racket over there.
save the krill:
23 Jan 2015 2:13:06pm
No, we have had an election on just this issue David. Perhaps you do not recognise the outcome and wish to hate the elected government out of office. There are no more drownings, if you hadn't heard. That is a wonderful thing, thanks to the Coalition who warned the community in about 2005 of that precise outcome - only to be met with groans, disgraceful cynicism and rolling of eyes by their opponents plus the MSM and the ABC and acaedemics and commentators, which should be a matter of immense shame, but of course they don't care so shame is not part of the makeup. Anyway the Coalition fixed that up.
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:53:46pm
Krill, the boat people took the risk of drowning as preferable to what they escaped. Don't feign care.
The Liberal party got 32% of the vote.
When any posters criticise academics they've said it all.
Stay dumb tiger.
23 Jan 2015 6:01:54pm
David and Ben. Australia is not the bottomless pit of money we once thought it was. The procession of those trying their luck for $800 would never end. The current system is expensive, but it will not be required in the future.
This tough policy is all about deterring opportunists and carnage at sea, and it has worked. Genuine refugees will still be protected from the well founded fear of prosecution they claim.
You also forget, David, that acts of violence committed by asylum-seekers in Australian detention centres when they received decisions contrary to the assurances of their smuggler. Something that is never, if not rarely seen in UNHCR refugee camps.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 1:44:49pm
Be on the alert, people. There are messages everywhere.
23 Jan 2015 1:48:26pm
I am curious too, what will it take to shock the people who can see human suffering and ignore or explain the reason for it.
It reminds me of a time when I worked for the old govt Commonwealth Employment Service, for years people banged on about dole bludgers, then the economy took a huge down turn and masses of middle aged people came in to register for the dole.
We were told repeatedly, "Oh I am not a bludger I just need income support until I find a job, I am not like the others...." So they wanted compassion and payments but didn't want others to receive it. In their eyes they were deserving and others weren't.
History repeats itself.
23 Jan 2015 1:51:32pm
Once a fundamentalist, always a fundamentalist no?
Jane :
23 Jan 2015 1:52:00pm
What does shock me Julian is the vitriole, racism and hate in some of the comments on your piece.
23 Jan 2015 2:19:43pm
The misinformation and vitriol against boat arriving asylum seekers is much the same today in the 2010s as it was in the 1970s.
The difference is in the ethical qualities of PM Malcolm Fraser leadership in the 1970s compared to the qualities of PMs Kevin Rudd's and Tony Abbott's leadership in the 2010s.
David Hill:
23 Jan 2015 1:53:52pm
Given the hypothetical scenario of the boat people being white english speakers ... I think we would see 0 anti comments ..any arguments against the refugees are just people trying to come up with some logic for their racism or bigotry
23 Jan 2015 3:11:17pm
Not true. I am as against illegal migration of people from the UK and the US as I am against people smuggling.
Mike (the other one):
23 Jan 2015 4:47:59pm
David - why is it that when somebody disagrees with a (usually) leftist view of the world they are immediately and simplistically branded a racist and a bigot?
Disco Graham:
23 Jan 2015 5:50:30pm
Sorry to throw a wet blanket on you moral thrill, David, but you will find, as I have, there are many non-White Australians who are very passionate in their objection to asylum-seekers who seek to cheat the system.
It is also my experience that most volunteers who assist refugees are White Australians. So please, (if your are a White Australian) understand that safely condemning only your race is quickly becoming tiresome and no longer attracts the moral applause it used to.
23 Jan 2015 6:07:42pm
There are regular cracks made at white New Zealanders who lob here for the surf and the dole... they are economic migrants, too..
But I'm apparently racist, so I can't understand why I would think we should be taking more refugees from the long term, unsafe, overcrowded, camps in various places, ahead of admitting self selected, petulant, middle class professionals with university degrees and $10K to pay a people smuggler.. but perhaps that makes me just a economic bigot? :-)
23 Jan 2015 6:35:21pm
...and I'm regularly referred to as a 'whinging Pom'!
23 Jan 2015 1:54:17pm
Another spin article. More "oh poor them". How about poor us? How about a decent economy first for those of us who belong here?
Once they can be verified and deemed fit for admittance, then sure, let them move here and contribute. But, until such time as these people prove their identity and their worth, I'm all in favour of their stay in a temporary processing facility.
For those that want to welcome them all with such open and naive arms, perhaps you should move to one of these countries; you seem to love there more than here. Good riddance to the lot of you.
Thank our first truly ELECTED leader in almost 10 years for sticking to what's right in the face of the noisy and violent minority.
23 Jan 2015 4:42:37pm
"Thank our first truly ELECTED leader in almost 10 years..."
Presumably you are referring to Gillard's minority Government. However, I'd point out that Kevin Rudd was elected fair and square with a majority and was PM on that basis until June 2010, just over 4 and a half years ago. Following Gillard taking over, she too had a majority until the 2010 election.
23 Jan 2015 1:58:01pm
For a QC this article is full of hearsay!! I have never heard any Gov. person either Labor or liberal use illegal asylum seeker in the same sentence ever to describe Asylum seekers and I challenge Julian to provide evidence to back that claim. That is simply a misleading comment and does he cause no good. Seems Julian is as adept at using spin as any politician!!
23 Jan 2015 2:01:31pm
I agree with this: Public reaction to these things has been minimal.
There is a lack of general compassion for the plight of people jailed for seeking asylum. I cannot understand why? I consider myself compassionate to the difficulties of people in Australia and around the world. However, even I feel challenged on two issues regarding asylum seekers.
Firstly, I do find it "staged" that people sew their lips together. If someone chooses to go on a hunger strike to show the world has awful their life has become, despairing for their future, then I can relate. I cannot relate in any way to sewing your lips together. It makes no practical sense, it appears symbolic - but not in a good way.
Secondly, the people who can afford to pay for smugglers are much better off than those without money, literacy or hope. I feel we should help this second group of people.
Maybe other people draw their own conclusions and feel disconnected to asylum seekers based on issues like this. Is this a reason why the public don't react to mistreatment?
23 Jan 2015 2:05:19pm
If you stop the free hand outs you will stop the boats.
I. A. Salis:
23 Jan 2015 2:07:56pm
Julian, there are 30 million people aching to settle in Australia.
23 Jan 2015 2:30:59pm
Yes. And?
Disco Graham:
23 Jan 2015 5:20:41pm
You think it's hard finding a car park now!
23 Jan 2015 2:16:57pm
Australia has 1.2 million people unemployed. Unless you'll count working 4 hours per week (for a wage) as being employed.
23 Jan 2015 2:17:02pm
Obviously, for some to get to be a barrister you don't have to be very good.
Numerous errors include:
"They have committed no offence by coming to Australia seeking protection."
Wrong. They have illegally entered a vessel in the country of origin in the first place, so at the least they can be prosecuted in the country wherever they boarded the boat, plane or whatever.
You can't just get on a vessel in a country and leave that country, for any reason. You need permission, from both countries. Also, the vessel has to be used for the purpose under the law in which it is licenced to operate; an illegal use of a vessel is one of the many laws that have been broken.
If they can't get permission to leave, they that is a matter for the legislature of that country and the country of destination, which makes it illegal to do so. This includes all 'refugee style' travel purposes.
No country in the world allows its citizens to leave that country under false pretences. Ever seen a 'purpose of travel' form?.
If you don't agree with this, then you don't agree with the law.
This is one of the many areas where the existing asylum laws are incorrect, they allow illegal exit and entry and transit through a country, all using illegal transportation, in the first place. There are numerous other areas where asylum laws are incorrect; it is only a matter of time before they are changed, but for that we have to educate those 'out of touch barristers' such as in the above article, who are ideologically opposed to the law as it stands.
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:57:19pm
Gosh, we should have more clever people like you in the courts, that'd show these criminals. They should be tried and punished at home for attempting to escape the horrors. Sensational.
23 Jan 2015 2:19:04pm
I was shocked at Australia's treatment of other races years ago and things haven't changed. I had hoped that the White Australia mentality would eventually change it hasn't. I remember someone saying if the world was invaded by an alien race or had a global disaster facing us we would quickly unite as one. No signs of the aliens but we've got climate change and we're still divided.
If there was any country that should want to keep it's doors open to refugees it should be this one. As a country frequently affected by droughts that get worse and worse we are but a hairs breath from being refugees ourselves. Who will be our friends when positions are reversed.
max sutter:
23 Jan 2015 2:21:48pm
Julian,what is nthe definition of piracy on the high seas?I would guess that an armed gunboat,forcibly boarding a foreign vessel in international waters ,kidnapping the crew and passengers, sometimes scuttling their vessel and forcibly taking the crew and passengers to another country to imprison them in a concentration camp,would have to come close.Piracy is also an offence in international law too isn't it?
23 Jan 2015 2:59:43pm
Max, what is the definition called when a Customs vessel intercepts a smuggling boat which is clearly carrying illegal contraband destined for Australian shores? Is that called "piracy on the high seas?
Whilst these are people, not contraband, they are attempting to enter Australia illegally (i.e. committing an illegal act).
You can put whatever childish and emotive term on it you like.
But, I believe we have the right to protect our borders from criminal activities.
Once these illegal immigrants are processed, and if found to be genuine refugees, they will be given safe haven - just not in Australia. Our refugee intake (and there are thousands per year) must abide by the orderly terms we decide.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 2:35:42pm
Why it's compuslory I don't know. But I do know this. It's now tied to payment of fines. Fines for not voting. There's now a line there.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 2:38:12pm
There has been too much of it. Shaming. It needs to stop.
Julian Burnside:
23 Jan 2015 2:56:40pm
I hate to read about the refugees on Manus. However there are hundreds of thousands of refugees around the world waiting for resettlement and some of them have been waiting for up to 20 years in refugee camps in dire conditions (I know because I teach ESL to humanitarian refugees, particularly Africans).
If we soften the consequences of coming here by boat, more will arrive and the refugees who are waiting in camps will never get here.
Your argument is not a fair one when you consider all those other people desperate to come here.
Judy Bee:
23 Jan 2015 3:03:30pm
Hello Moderator,
My sympathies. Some of these posts could make you feel very sorry for the human race. So much misinformed angst. xxx has attacked the professional standing (as a barrister) of the author by the way. Isn't that personal?
23 Jan 2015 3:05:29pm
I do not see what is the problem with being in detention. They came here knowing they will be detained. They are safe, they are being given food and shelter.
My wife is from overseas and through the normal visa application process, it took over 18 months for her to be approved to come over. Why should someone who has no documentation or references be processed significantly quicker?
I say if these people want to come over as refugee, please do but accept our laws and ways of doing things. If they choose to kill themselves when given food then good on them. Their organ donations are welcome.
Judy Bee:
23 Jan 2015 3:06:12pm
Everyone should read "The Happiest Refugee" just to see how Australia can benefit from someone who seeks asylum. There are many, many more like him. A lot of the comment here is phobic.
23 Jan 2015 3:31:59pm
Why are they not all classed as illegal immigrants or country shoppers, how many have paid huge amounts of money to get here. What has happened to the poor. Should not the ones with be helping their own without. This is what we are expected to do with people of another country, why are we supposed to be made guilty, when their well off don't care about anything but themselves. Remember it is only the well off that can buy a ticket.
23 Jan 2015 3:35:30pm
Barns or Burnside who really cares. What we know when we see these names pop up in the left online forums/rags is that we'll all be castigated, told we aren't meeting our obligations under some multi acronym body housed in Paris or Switzerland.
With the illegal migration problem now nicely fixed by Minister Morrision I'm detecting a note of hysteria in the left, I mean the number of people that we should feel ashamed of is in serious decline. Well have pencils at ten paces if this goes on then, we'll be offering bonuses for spotting a disadvantaged reffo so we can offer to defend them.
Julian mate, sorry but I have No sympathy for a group of agitated young men who are upset because the ticket to Australia didn't get stamped. I suspect there is little care by most Australians in their pork chop attention seeking turns. Remember in most cases they can still go home as well if PNG isn't good enough for them.
23 Jan 2015 5:04:18pm
There it is! The word "left" to describe Burnside.
That makes it a winning post. Not.
Obviously "left" is meant to be an insult. When I was young it meant being a communist. How as it come to mean caring about asylum seekers?
23 Jan 2015 3:45:44pm
so some free loading country shoppers take directions from their green/labor dupes and make a few pathetic gestures or skip a couple of meals and we're supposed to care?????
23 Jan 2015 5:05:17pm
I'm pretty sure the ALP was pretty mean to asylum seekers too.
23 Jan 2015 4:31:28pm
like radical party guests who won't go home.
Artful Dodger:
23 Jan 2015 4:43:02pm
Much as I admire you and your compassion Julian I suggest you and I may do more good if we call on our Government to stop supporting those who are CREATING refugees by waging physical and economic wars.\
Maybe we should be urging our erstwhile Foreign Minister to use her undoubted talents in 'convincing" the UN to do things which will encourage people to stay in their home countries.
As we do not seem to have one world leader deserving to be called a leader maybe she can aspire to that lofty height.
Lehan Ramsay:
23 Jan 2015 4:45:57pm
Well done. But the weekend, it will take some rad natter.
23 Jan 2015 4:46:05pm
Burnside's lament about public indifference fails to hold Manus detainees accountable for their own actions, and once again, the ABC fails to hold Burnside to account for his ridiculous, over-the-top statements and the inherent political bias in them.
If he seriously thinks he could prosecute a case against the PM and his immigration ministers (note there is no mention of prosecuting Rudd or Gillard, who are actually responsible for all those people being on Manus, not to mention the policies which saw 1200 people drown) then Burnside has lost grip on reality.
No doubt, the conditions on Manus are harsh. No doubt, the people detained there are unhappy and desperate, and harming themselves. Regardless of their motivation and circumstance, it's irrational (also unnecessary and futile) behaviour and despite the moral posturing of advocates like Burnside, there's little sympathy for such among rational people.
There's also no doubt that since the Abbott Government was elected, the boats have been stopped and no-one has drowned. There's very little doubt the majority of Australians support the policy. And there's strong suspicion that hunger strikes and self-harm perpetrated by detainees are actually being encouraged by advocates like Burnside - if it wasn't so tragic it would be called gross political theatrics.
By all means hold the Government to account for failures on Manus. At the same time, let us ensure detainees are accountable for their stupidity in putting themselves and their families on leaky boats to nowhere, the governments of the countries from which they fled accountable for their economic incompetence and religious/political persecutions, and advocates like Burnside accountable for resorting to these shock tactics just to make a point.
23 Jan 2015 4:52:38pm
Typical disingenious opinion from a Lawyer. Seeking asylum is not illegal but coming to this country without a valid Visa is illegal!
23 Jan 2015 5:16:58pm
I'm starting to think it's time to hire a good fast little ship and a Few Good Men and go up to Manus Island and rescue those people. Take them, say, to New Zealand, drop them off on a beach with some food and clothes. I actually think both sides of politics would be mighty relieved if there were no asylum seekers on Manus Island. A good fast little ship and a Few Good Men could save face all round, and save those poor wretches too.
23 Jan 2015 5:26:53pm
Obviously my comment was too close to the bone re: Julian Burnside so naturally it was excluded. As for those who are saying that 90% of the asylum seekers processed under the Labor government were found to be refugees. There is a reason for that. They were coached on what to say by the Refugee advocates like Julian Burnside, Ian Rintoul and Sarah Hansen Young, while the ABC did their PR. They only had to state( not prove) that there may have been a 10% chance that they might face persecution on their return to their home countries to be given the tick while at the same time, Immigration was flooded with the 50,000 arriving in the boats. Most of those deemed to be refugees then would in no way be elliglible now that the government have tightened the requirements. Under Labor, thousands easily rorted the system and now they are reaping all the benefits of one of the most generous refugee resettlement programs in the world while those who's places they stole languish for decades in the camps.
don't believe the media:
23 Jan 2015 5:42:04pm
An important article, Mr Burnside. Thank you. I made it about a third of the way down the comments list and could go no more.
I think you got your answer.
There is a large element of Australians who think of themselves as intelligent and good people. Their words suggest the opposite. Many are hateful, selfish and stupid.
To them a person's colour makes them different. A person's language makes them unworthy. A person's place of origin makes them a terrorist or a criminal.
This is our Australia and these are our people. I wish it wasn't so, but with education being cut to keep us dumb and easy to be manipulated, with our media dominated by self interested and evil liars and our government run by selfish and corrupt morons it is what we get.
Keep fighting the good fight sir. Some of us are hanging on in the hope of enlightenment for this land and her people and you represent a part of it.
23 Jan 2015 6:20:06pm
One very confused post here. The issue was never and is not now about skin colour, language or country of origin.
Then we get our poster saying that most of his fellow Australians are dumb, racists and self serving. Then we lurch on and say we are all victims of some huge conspiracy to keep us dumb. I was expecting to be told that the drinking water was spiked with Prozac next....
On the contrary I'd say most Australians have a good BS meter and this article has just tripped it and made all the bells ring.
23 Jan 2015 5:45:56pm
Compare & contrast - my family - stayed in a refugee camp between 1944(grandma had already been a "guest" of the Russians in Siberia between 1919 & 1923 & had desire to repeat that experience (and if the Manus Island inmates think THEY are being badly treated my grandmother has a few stories for them) & 1953. Whilst in thee camp they did everything they could to show prospective host countries they would be assets to the country. My aged uncle even today has all his camp documents (he was naturalised in 1956!)just in case immigration come calling ...
the conduct of the inmate in Manus Island. May they give up & go home .
23 Jan 2015 5:46:24pm
AGB. You sound like many who've been sucked in by the leadership of our two main parties when you refer to the majority of asylum seekers as economic migrants. If that were the case you could be guaranteed that it wouldn't take 2 years and more to process their claims. They would have been processed and on the next plane.
Abbott, Morrison and Dutton in the International Court....bring it on Julian. I like thousands of others would pay good money to back that case.
Reinhard :
23 Jan 2015 5:49:40pm
Abbott's pre-Xmas reshuffle has allowed Scott Morrison to finally emerge from the shadows, surprisingly unscathed considering it was his incompetence and deceit about resettlement that incited last year's riot. Almost a year has passed since then and Peter Dutton has now been left to clean up the mess left by Morrison, and after 16 months in govt they have still not managed to resettle even one single refugee, with absolutely no progress in resettlement negotiations.
23 Jan 2015 6:04:18pm
The average Australian voter is tired of hearing about Manus Island or any of the other places. They would prefer our Government Helped their own Homeless People.and also stop giving Foreign Aid Money which should be spent in Australia. The Camps need to be completely shut down all the people should be repatriated.
Conservative :
23 Jan 2015 6:15:46pm
Queue jumpers only deprive other refugees who have been waiting for years!
My parents spent a year in a detention centre back in the 1950s and they didn't jump the queue , so why is there a problem today??
Mars Drum:
23 Jan 2015 6:33:26pm
Thank you Julian. I for one am so shocked and afraid for these asylum seekers, afraid at the Australian government's cruelty. Delivers of torture, I feel helpless as many Germans must have felt ...when Hitler began to exterminate people in the camps. I read these comments and see how we ended up with such a cruel and stupid government...Australia is dumbing down exponentially with the help of Murdoch, Howard, LNP, also ALP. I believe in the power of community and nature, and I try to visualise our government torturers ( also Howard and co) being tried for their war crimes against humanity. I wish you breakthroughs and success, and much gratitude for your work.
23 Jan 2015 6:35:02pm
We already have enough crasy immigrant that we have let into this country that have no respect for our way of life and you want to let these people in have we gone mad.
Do you really think we need people with the mind set that lets them sew thier lips together in this country.
We need to stop all the bleeding hearts want to save everyone .
Look at all the immigrant that are going support Isis do we really need more.
Mike (the other one):
23 Jan 2015 6:40:12pm
I like many Australians am fed up with the problems we are dealing with pouring out of the Islamic Middle East and north Africa that directly relate to their culture. Their antics do not shock because, again, it seems to be part of their culture.
On arrival we give them safe haven. We give them food. We give them free health care. We give them access to free education and communications. Etcetera. They have abused the facilities on Christmas Island and elsewhere.
These (mostly) young men have contributed nothing to Australia upon arrival.
We are putting up with more of their emotional blackmail because they are not getting what they want or not getting what they want quick enough.
Send them back to where the problem belongs ASAP. AND back out of the Refugee convention - it is now getting used by far too many opportunists (including lawyers). If they do manage to get asylum they then use our family reunification program to get the rest of their families out here which were never, in all likelihood, in any real danger.
It seemed quite easy for Australian authorities to openly communicate and make arrangements with Reza Berati's and Hamid Kehazaei's families back home. Again indicating nobody was in any real danger requiring asylum.
Philip Bradley:
23 Jan 2015 6:56:01pm
The large amount of money required to reach Australia by boat, means these people are either rich by the standards of their home societies. or willing participants in criminal enterprises dedicated to people smuggling, and facing large debts to dangerous people if they return. Hence their desperation. But hardly Australia's concern.
23 Jan 2015 7:05:53pm
treating Manus refugees (who have the right to asylum under our current laws) worse than criminals, who receive full medical treatment here in aus, dentistry included? seems slightly backward I think. Running the refugee camps is costly, but no one would object half as much if we saw the refugees as our own. I can see nothing bad in embracing cosmopolitanism, and learning to accept the refugees as fellow human beings.
Chris C:
23 Jan 2015 7:18:22pm
Its sad to see what is happening but these people have only them selves to blame. They have jumped the queue at the immigration camps are quite well off if reports on passage costs then expect us to feed house and educate. My parents only got a fraction of what they get yet my father helped built this country.
There is a simple solution. If you try to jump the queue like this you either go back to whence you came or you go to an immigration camp and Waite your turn like true refugees and you go on the end of the queue, and we bring to Australia double the number that jumped the queue.
Its funny they are mostly well built males? They are financial refugees not genuine.
Sorry I have no pity as when I retire after 60 years of hard labour intensive work I will not be looked after these people so don't expect me to cry.
As for the minority of do gooders take them into your home and feed them. There is a reason for a system and jumping the queue is not acceptable
23 Jan 2015 7:31:50pm
Mr Burnside,
Thank you very much for your humane words. I too hope, that soon these right wing ideologues, who brutally treat Asylum seekers like criminals, will face prosecution in the International Criminal Court.
The sooner the better.
23 Jan 2015 7:45:02pm
So many people miss the point.
It's not about whether people are 'country shoppers' or 'economic migrants' or whatever. The fact is that when people apply for asylum, we are obligated to properly and fairly process their claims.
Instead we treat them with immense cruelty, by detaining them indefinitely, children included.
If they are 'economic migrants' then processing their claims would reveal that.
Some people also seem to indicate that because they heard somewhere that Reza Barati was just 'looking for a better job' that it doesn't matter that he had his head kicked in and was murdered.
Honestly - this is about how we treat our fellow human beings. The finer points on whether they are 'real refugees' or not is the stuff we can work out through processing claims.
23 Jan 2015 7:47:56pm
So why the outrage about people arriving by boats, who for many reasons are desperate to get out of their situation, yet not a word of concern about the hundreds of thousands of overseas students who come here to get 'PR' funded by their parents. Such a well trodden path there's an acronym for permanent residency. We are are allowing vast numbers of middle class immigrants who can purchase our real estate but have no sympathy for those looking for an escape. This country was built by those seeking to live a better life and make Australia their home and some will make great contributions in the process. What we have now is a displacement of Australia's middle class by those who really don't give a toss for Australia.
23 Jan 2015 7:49:00pm
Julian, I often wonder how an intelligent, highly paid lawyer can be totally without logic and the basic common sense. Even a child would know that if you accede to one single suicide or self-harm threat you would be actually encouraging thousand of others to do the same. I am sure that you don't want that to happen. Therefore why are you advertising and so encouraging the ones who would indulge in self-harm.
I honestly don't understand what you are trying to achieve. Give permanent residence to everyone who arrives by boat and encourage hundreds of thousands of new arrivals and tens of thousands drownings at sea? If not, please tell us YOUR SOLUTION. I think you do not have a solution. All you know is to complain. Cant you see that people are sick and tired of you and your fellow 'complain artists' with no solution.
Comments for this story are closed.