text:
Monday, September 1, 2008
Knaus Continues To Learn The TV Game
SPEED viewers have watched Chad Knaus work alongside of Larry McReynolds and Bootie Barker on NASCAR Performance for several seasons. Talking about the most detailed and intricate technical issues associated with the sport seemed to be a natural for Knaus.
It was interesting this season when SPEED decided to add Knaus to the re-vamped Monday night show now called This Week In NASCAR. This show features conversation about a wide variety of issues, almost none of them technical.
New host Steve Byrnes was feeling his way through this program when it first began and the pathway was a bit rough. Working with Michael Waltrip, Greg Biffle and Knaus proved to be a challenge.
Added to that task was the format that SPEED demanded. After a very brief chat, Byrnes and his panel offered a thirty minute preview of the race that was six days away and never touched the highlights from just the day before. Needless to say, it did not work with the fans.
While all the behind-the-scenes chaos was going-on with the format, a funny thing happened on-the-set. Waltrip and Knaus began to develop a relationship that continues to evolve. Waltrip discovered that Knaus could take a joke and actually had a sense of humor. Knaus discovered that the only way he was going to survive on this TV series was to learn to ignore Waltrip on a regular basis.
The resulting on-air dynamic has been fun to watch and played a major role in making Monday nights on SPEED interesting again. It also helped that the network executives finally relented and let the race review lead the show. It made a big difference.
This week, Byrnes, Waltrip and Knaus were all tired from a long California weekend and a three hour time zone shift. Waltrip started slow, but got himself back on-track by suggesting California go to restrictor plate racing immediately.
Of course, this resulted in Knaus trying to find the words to disagree while not gloating on the fact he had the dominant car all weekend long. It was too late, Waltrip was gone off on a tangent and Byrnes was laughing so hard he could not talk.
"I can't believe we still have a show," said Knaus while rubbing his temples and shaking his head. Byrnes and Waltrip had long since gone to "giggle land" and the movie references were flying. For veteran viewers of this show, it was somewhat ironic that Knaus sounds more-and-more like a former TV partner of Waltrip.
Kenny Schrader spent many Mondays shaking his head at Waltrip's comments. Eventually, Schrader developed a style of ignoring Waltrip just like Knaus is trying to perfect. This week, Knaus cut-through the clutter and the chaos like a veteran TV professional.
The Richmond preview featured some excitement after a very boring weekend at California. The TWIN production team pulls the best footage to back-up the comments from the panel and this week was no exception. Just seeing the three-wide racing, hot tempers and racing action served to finally help fans actually look forward to a COT race.
A key element of this program's success is the features and interviews that the NASCAR Media Group can put together. They have all the resources from the track and the NASCAR footage vault, so things like the outstanding feature on Clint Bowyer and his dad can result. I have the feeling we might see that one again on RaceDay.
As this program goes forward, Knaus is clearly going to grow his role as the voice-of-reason while Waltrip just continues to be himself. These two have already combined for some memorable moments this season and things should only get better. If the TV executives will just let them come back next week, of course.
The Daly Planet welcomes comments from readers. Simply click on the COMMENTS button below and follow the easy instructions. The rules for posting are located on the right side of the main page. Thank you for taking the time to stop by.
29 comments:
- Newracefan said...
Too funny, I'm still laughing. Kudos to Chad for showing up, after winning yesterday which quickly rolled in to today and flying back in the wee hours he could very well have blown off TWIN, he showed up and had fun. This show makes my Monday
- September 1, 2008 at 9:36 PM
- Tracy said...
Everyone looked tired and a tad punchy, but it was still a good show. We're back to watching it live, not on Tivo so we could fast forward to the review of last weekend's race. It's nice to get back to where it should be.
- September 1, 2008 at 9:38 PM
- kbaskins said...
As much as I dislike Hendrick and especially Jimmie Johnson, I find myself actually really enjoying Chad Knaus. He has a great sense of humour. And I'm a Roush fan, but Greg Biffle just doesn't have the personality to fit in with the other two. I look forward the Chad shows, and sometimes skip the weeks that Biff is on.
I just love Steve Byrnes to bits. Mikey ... well, I would like him a whole lot more if he quit constantly plugging his sponsors. He just goes waaaaaaay overboard. I don't mind a little bit of pimping, but Mikey wears on me really quickly.
Most of the time the look on Chad's face makes me laugh harder than the jokes. When Mikey brought up making Fontana a restrictor plate race and Chad asked him what he took on the way to the studio to make Mikey think that was a good idea, I almost peed myself.
With the revamped format, TWIN has turned from a disjointed, rambling mess into something fun and informative. This show has come a long way from that first painful episode (and the second, and the third...).
*sigh* So now that I've admitted that I really like Chad, I have to go shoot myself.
- September 1, 2008 at 10:06 PM
- TexasRaceLady said...
KarenB said "Most of the time the look on Chad's face makes me laugh harder than the jokes. When Mikey brought up making Fontana a restrictor plate race and Chad asked him what he took on the way to the studio to make Mikey think that was a good idea, I almost peed myself."
While not going quite that far, it did cost me a perfectly good glass of sweet iced tea. ROTFL
Another delight of a show. Between the references to an animated movie and the goofy chatter, we got some "nuggets" of wisdom passed along to us.
Great job, guys. As far as I'm concerned, you can come back next week.
- September 1, 2008 at 10:14 PM
- Geez said...
"The Richmond preview featured some excitement after a very boring weekend at California".
You of all people should know that the race broadcast can depict a race anyway they choose. Your comment above is very misleading.
I was there and no one around me felt is was boring.
They may have felt that the story line was king and only showed what they felt was supporting it. If you meant to say that the broadcast was boring that's one thing, but to say it was a boring weekend is another.
I and many other's who were there saw a good race. Please tell me you are not taking part in the southeast pile on.
- September 1, 2008 at 10:18 PM
- Sophia said...
Don't be too hard on yourself...I felt the same way about HMS and Chad...THEN Dale Jr joined the team. SHOCKEROO!!
And I also am enjoying Chad over Biffle (no offense Greg) The boys did seem tired...especially Michael.
My only gripe was the Weekend in review from SPEED shown. I did not need to see the crude Drew Carey. Whew boy...if ONLY I could post the quotes from HIS article in a magazine some years back. The women would all be throwing up on their keyboards.
But other than that blunder, I enjoyed the show. So nice to have things back in order.
Love the way Mikey and Steve quote the Castrol "Danger" guy... "How far'd I go?"
That insipid commercial has grown on me and the delivery of the actor in the commercial for that line is perfect.
So glad SPEED relented and let the boys talk the review first...as they should.
Is it just this old monitor I am using at the moment or does Chad look super tan in his photo?
Thanks for the fun read, JD.
It's great to have a FUN show on Monday night.
Karen to add to your comment, I just wish Chad could be on EVERY WEEK!
oh, and I enjoy him on NASCAR Performance too!
p.s. and to add to TRL comments..I hear the best inside stuff on this show. Love the scanner stuff they choose.
- September 1, 2008 at 10:18 PM
- glenc1 said...
Huge fan of 'Cars', so I did love the show. Everyone else is wondering who Darrell Cartrip is. J/k, it was a good show. There was something that made me LMBO, but I can't remember...anyways, I found the soundbytes with Carey funny. I had no issue with his humor; it was really Wendy's comment that brought it out...just a guy who knows how to improv.....
While Waltrip sounded ridiculous with his 'restrictor plate' garbage.
- September 1, 2008 at 10:26 PM
- Daly Planet Editor said...
glen, I think Mikey was having a little bit of fun at Chad's expense on that one. Give him credit, he said the same thing last year.
I have been a TV guy since the early 1980's. I have moved over fifteen times and lived in CT, NC, TX, FL and Washington DC. I also spent a great deal of time working in LA.
Last year after the race, Ms. Zucker the track Prez told a radio guy she would like to rip it up and put in high banks because the racing was so boring.
It has nothing to do with the location, only the configuration. I said nothing about the crowd or the weather, those are different issues. The fact is that these new COT cars don't put on a good show on this track.
I understand completely your point about racing in the back of the pack. Unfortunately, with only one more race after Cali to make The Chase we all knew where the focus would probably be.
Next season when the weather is different and the lights are on and the guys have another year to figure this COT thing out I think it might come around.
Not piling on and one more hurricane may make me move far away from the Southeast!
- September 1, 2008 at 11:04 PM
- Ken said...
Looks like you might get a couple more hurricanes before the Richmond Race.
- September 1, 2008 at 11:24 PM
- AMS fan said...
Another good show.
I'm back to watching every week.
Even when they get carried away with their antics, it's still pretty good. It's just plain GREAT to see people enjoy what they do.
- September 1, 2008 at 11:58 PM
- Dot said...
TWIN is a must watch for me every Monday. Has been since it was IWC.
I am so glad that they changed the format. See, it can be done mid season. Thank you SPEED for caring about your viewers.
I remember before SPEED came to be on my cable system searching the TV listings for FSN. They would show it on that channel at some weird times. I taped it whenever I found it. SPEED channel is the reason I upgraded my cable package.
I agree about Biff. He needs some comedic material. Nice guy, though. I don't think he still knows how to deal w/Mikey. He should talk to Chad for some pointers.
- September 2, 2008 at 12:36 AM
- Anonymous said...
Help me out here. MW wants restrictor plates at Fontana. But how do you have a massive parade of tightly packed traffic when there is braking. I understand restrictor plates at Daytona/Dega because the drivers are wide open all night. But Fontana??
Aside from that, TWIN was AWESOME. The show has found a groove and a tone and is running with it. I like NASCAR Now, Tivo it daily. But I really look forward to TWIN.
- September 2, 2008 at 1:03 AM
- Lou said...
Just finished watching the midnight reair of TWIN. Another good show from Steve and the gang. The movie references made me laugh, and they kept those up for the whole show. They fit well in the flow of the show.
Chad with his track analisys was good. And how being in the front has the advantage over even the tenth place car time wise per lap.
Glad to see the 84 get a few mentions. 84 and 44 had good runs and glad to see that recognized.
Since I did not watch any pre race programs or Trackside. I did enjoy the SPEED highlights segment from the weekend shows. These guys seem to have fun with what they do.
Yes JD, you may be right. We may see the feature on the 07 again. It seemed like a Real Deal w/Wendy minus Wendy.
How great is that! Steve got Chad to go back to the numbers on the roof. Gave closure to regular viewers. Nice to get back to us on that. If I recall, I think I watched that also on TWIN after the show on NASCAR.com when that first came up.
Once again, Thanks Steve and all for a good show and the review before the preview.
- September 2, 2008 at 1:03 AM
- Kenn Fong said...
You're right about Chad playing the straight man for Mikey and Steve. It's great to hear the rapport between the three.
As for Biff, I don't mind that he doesn't yet know how to roll with the other two. He might be a little stiff, but he does know how to talk about racing.
I think the producers missed an opportunity by sticking with the two-regulars instead of three format. If they added Biff as the third man this week, they'd have Chad and Biff, representing the top two finishers. It would have been good to hear Biff and Chad talk about the little tête-á-tête near the end of the race. (It was an actual head-to-head conference atop the 48 pit box!)
Pacific Time Zone Kenny - Alameda, California
- September 2, 2008 at 1:18 AM
- Dannyboy said...
You were there and many around you found the race exciting. You said much the same thing on another thread, so I will repeat my two cents:
I was there too, and when I left the race with 50 laps to go, there was a line waiting to leave. Yes, I know things can happen and "you never know", but after nearly 4 hours of strung-out endless droning, with Jimmie destroying the competition I'd had enough. And I've built race engines and raced them, so I like the sound.
Mikey had it right when just before he mentioned plate racing at Fontana he exclaimed how the event is so cool and everybody gets excited (and indeed the buildup and the start left nothing to be desired) and then the race starts and - he pauses abruptly - you realize there's a big problem for the fans.
Go back and watch the tape, he's worried the fans won't come because the "show" is lacking. Even when the Indy cars lapped at 240, the track is so forgiving that they could go side-by side and you didn't worry. Do that at 200 at Texas and it's nail-biting, white knuckle time.
Next year when the race is a Chase race in cooler October, I bet you many fans will opt to stay home and watch football no matter that there's more at stake.
When they built that place Penske opined that they could up the seating capacity to over 100,000 in a short time. Haven't heard much talk about that now, have you?
Great banter on tonight's show surrounding the "Cars" references. And once again Mikey takes the high road where Clint Bowyer is concerned even after the harsh words from Clint last week.
- September 2, 2008 at 1:49 AM
- Anonymous said...
I have a lot of respect for Chad and thought he did just fine last night. I didn't understand Byrnes though as he kept going off on silly,giggling tangents. Definitely not one of the better shows.
- September 2, 2008 at 4:13 AM
- Anonymous said...
- This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
- September 2, 2008 at 4:59 AM
- Anonymous said...
Good Show? Michael was at his usual terrible self. He needs to go, thank goodness for NASCAR NOW.
- September 2, 2008 at 7:46 AM
- Lisa Hogan said...
anon is back with "southern greed" this time.
Really enjoyed the show last night. For me, just the right mixture of laughs and information.
What a difference from the start of the season. Thanks SPEED.
- September 2, 2008 at 8:19 AM
- Anonymous said...
I thoroughly enjoyed last night's show! It was good to see & hear 3 guys being themselves - no suits, no boring explanations - just 3 guys having fun at what they were doing at the moment. Just wish I could hear what's being said during commercials - obviously, we missed a few choice jokes!
I pay extra for SPEED and am more than happy to - TWIN makes it all worthwhile!
- September 2, 2008 at 8:24 AM
- Vicky D said...
Once Speed changed the format back to discussing the weekend's race first then it's gotten back on track. I thought Mike & Chad were on it yesterday and Steve seems to be having a better time ot it. I'll keep on watching that's for sure.
- September 2, 2008 at 8:59 AM
- Anonymous said...
Are Schrader or Vickers even part of the show anymore?
- September 2, 2008 at 9:05 AM
- Anonymous said...
I'm glad we have this show. If you want "serious" NASCAR news, watch NNow. Or even Wind Tunnel.
Chad is learning a lot about how to interact with a driver who has an actual personality and speaks without scripted responses by being on this show. It can only be good for him.
- September 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM
- Anonymous said...
@Karen--LOL! I definitely know what you're saying! I don't like Chad, Jimmie or Hendrick (except for Jr. and Casey and then Mark next year) but Chad keeps trying to get me to like him :).
@glen--agreed about Drew's comments and improv he does! I loved the What's My Line show and they'd get him in on the action! I didn't find anything wrong with them, it was one of those things you could go either way on.
It was a great show! Loved the shout out to 'Cars'! I love it that the guys are having fun again! And like the post that I can't find now...able to have fun and still sneak in some edumacation for us :).
@aanon 9:05--I don't think Brian is part of the show at all anymore and we've only had 2 Schrader appearances that I remember. One on the Expert Panel and another was a special segment he did :(. It's definitely a shame, I miss Schrader :(.
- September 2, 2008 at 9:48 AM
- Anonymous said...
West coast Diane said:
Thank you Speed for returning TWIN to a fun format. There are enough shows with mostly serious discussions. TWIN is a breathe of fresh air.
Chad is getting better every show, seems much more relaxed. Chad contributed much more than usual so it wasn't totally Mikey (who I like, but not incessantly). Biff just needs to loosen up a bit.
I also thought Steve was much more relaxed and I loved that he was so animated. I also loved the "Cars" thread. Just makes it more real and natural as opposed to scripted stuff.
So, I am happy, except I would like Schrader to be there as others stated.
- September 2, 2008 at 1:13 PM
- clint said...
how can i say this and still have it shown 3 hours later.
you win 3 and a half point races in an 8 or 9 hundred race career, of course you want more plate tracks.
i like the show but come on.
- September 2, 2008 at 2:26 PM
- Anonymous said...
Another fun show! Keep up the great work guys.
- September 2, 2008 at 3:39 PM
- stricklinfan82 said...
Absolutely love the "new" TWIN. My only wish would be less pre-taped video segments and more Steve, Michael, and Chad/Greg.
- September 3, 2008 at 1:19 AM
- Anonymous said...
If I was a movie producer,,Id have the Biff in a Gene Wilder Bio.. Of some kind...(Thats a complement by the way Biff!!!) Your very dry since of humor cracks me up!!! You look so much like a very young Wilder...Perhaps, Young Frankenstien 2...We are all so proud of you here in Washington!!! LW...Everett,WA
- September 5, 2008 at 2:49 AM


text:
TOWNSEND -- The North Middlesex Regional School Committee voted Thursday to adopt a new set of graduation requirements for its student body at the high school to align with the Massachusetts Common Core standards.
Because North Middlesex Regional High School is a Race to the Top School, the administration is required to implement at least the MassCore Massachusetts High School program of studies. That includes four units of English, four units of math, three units of a lab-based science, three units of history, two units of the same foreign language, one unit of an arts program and five additional core courses, which could include health, business and technology.
High School Principal Christine Battye had previously presented the committee with a proposal to increase graduation standards, but the plan was met with some criticism because committee members felt it didn't address the needs of students who did not want to go to a four-year college or university, but may be good for other areas, such as a trade or music.
She proposed increasing math requirements, including moving to a full-year integrated math course in grades 9-11, then a selection of semester-length courses for students in grade 12. Through this, she said, she is anticipating that more high-school seniors will enroll in Advanced Placement math courses.
Battye proposes that students take four full-length science classes, up from three full-length classes, and four full-length social-studies courses, up from two full-length courses.
She also proposes that students take four half-credit physical-education classes, as well as an increased world-language requirement that would require students take three years of the same language, up from two.
During Thursday night's meeting, which was postponed from Monday because of the weather, teachers at the high school presented an altered plan that called for four English and math classes, four science classes, with three lab-based, three social-studies classes, and three courses in a world language, with a minimum of two years of the same language.
School Committee member Susan Robbins agreed with the motion to align their standards with the state Core standards, saying she supported keeping students engaged in school.
"I like pushing our kids to excel and having all the doors opened to them in the future, but we need to make sure we're keeping our students engaged," she said.
Jonna Clermont agreed, saying they need to make sure that all students succeed in high school.
"We certainly want our kids to go to college but not everyone does. This is a public high school," she said.
In the course of studies students take every year, certain career and college plans will be mapped out with recommended classes to take to achieve those goals, which members agreed will help students who wish to strive to higher standards.
Follow Katina Caraganis on Twitter @kcaraganis.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Longtime Glenwood resident Sybil Finken has been elected to lead VOR, a national advocacy organization for people with intellectual disabilities. She will serve as the organization's co-President, through June, with Ann Knighton from Augusta, Ga.
Finken is a long-time disability advocate in Iowa and nationally. She has been affiliated with VOR as a member since 1988. She has served on its board of directors since 2003 and as its first vice president since 1998. Locally, she is a staunch supporter of Glenwood Resource Center, a licensed residential program for people with profound intellectual disabilities, where her son, Seth, is a resident.
Seth, who is severely disabled due to meningitis when he was just seven months old, requires assistance in every aspect of daily living at all times. "At Glenwood, Seth can be all he can be," remarked Finken. "He's so well-cared for and happy. As parents, his happiness, good care and comfort are all we can ask for."
The trend nationally is to move away from large residential centers in favor of smaller settings in the community. VOR is the only national organization that challenges this trend, supporting instead an array of services from family home, to smaller neighborhood homes, to larger residential communities like the Glenwood Resource Center.
"VOR feels strongly - and has for 27 years since it was first founded - that one size does not fit all," said Finken. "Seth is not a good candidate for a small, unlicensed home. The lack of oversight and staff training would present significant worries for me as a parent and put Seth and the other Glenwood residents at risk due to their very complex medical and care needs. Glenwood Resource Center is federally-certified to care for people with complex needs. "
"I do recognize that a smaller setting is right for some people," added Finken. "A parent knows best; I would never in my advocacy threaten or question another parent's choice. That's what I love most about VOR - respect for individual and family decision-making"
Finken and Knighton will share the position of president through June 2012, when the next election will be held. Finken was not shy to sing Knighton's praises.
"I've served with Ann on the VOR Board of Directors for many years. She is a very dedicated and talented advocate. Our respective strengths complement one another; we'll make a great team."
Additional information about VOR is available online at www.vor.net.
Add new comment
Read and share your thoughts on this story


text:
Three Smiling Cooks = One Shining Moment
Randy York's N-Sider Blog
The Official Blog of the Huskers
Saturday's last volleyball Senior Night inside NU's historic Coliseum was No. 13 for John Cook as a head coach and No. 1 for him with a daughter's right arm interlocking with his left elbow as he and wife Wendy escorted senior setter Lauren to the same court that has been like a second home to her since she was 9-years-old.
This is one Scott Bruhn photograph that will be permanently logged into the Cook family archive – one shining moment with three smiling Cooks … two proud parents walking onto the Coliseum's hallowed hardwood like all the other moms and dads so 4,000 Nebraska volleyball fans can show their appreciation and express their gratitude for the opportunity to watch them.
Oh how the years go by, and the Cooks are no exception to how tremendously full, swift and poignant life can get as the years multiply. Saturday night painted such a beautiful script, if you didn't know better and had they been wearing different clothes, Nebraska's head coach could have been escorting his daughter down the aisle for a wedding. That's how happy everyone looked, especially Lauren, a hospitality, restaurant and tourism management major who can envision being a wedding planner someday.
She has, after all, already received a job offer as an event planner after leaving a recent volleyball practice early to make a final exam presentation at a Lincoln country club. The club's general manager was so impressed with her presentation that he offered Lauren a job any time it might work after she quits chasing a volleyball dream that includes a vision to become a member of USA's national team.
With a dad/head coach who has one of best winning percentages in the history of college volleyball and a mom who was a two-time All-American setter at San Diego State, Lauren Cook grew up with a volleyball in her hand and a dream in her heart, but none of that swirled in the head of another potential All-American Saturday night at the Coliseum.
Mom, Dad and Daughter Locked Arm-in-Arm
Even the Cooks got lost for a few precious moments in Saturday night's time machine. John had to forget about scouting reports and lineup decisions as Lauren stepped into the same postgame limelight with four fellow seniors. As they walked to the court, Lauren's right arm was cradled in her dad's outstretched left elbow and every finger on her left hand was firmly interlocking with her mother's right hand. Warm is the word that best describes the coach's wife and the daughter's mother.
Following a four-set match win over Northwestern, John Cook shrugged his shoulders and choked back his thoughts while trying to describe what it's like to manage a team at the same time he's trying to supervise every emotional bone in his body. He talks about the "unbelievable experience" of 4,000 people staying in their seats to honor five seniors and how "you're never going to see this anywhere" else.
Therefore, as both a coach and a father, he decides just to soak in the moment and to do his own fair share of cheering, especially when four words keep crawling inside his brain and reminding him that "This is my daughter!"
While describing his thoughts, Cook holds his hands apart and pretends to be taking a picture with his fingers, but it's all metaphorical. The picture he's taking is a snapshot in his mind or, as he put it, "kind of a wild moment for me just looking up there and realizing these fans are supporting our daughter and all of the rest of our seniors."
Earlier in the week, Cook made a point about how Senior Night is a very proud moment for any parent, and he is no exception. He and Wendy respected Lauren's decision to enroll at UCLA, where she became the Bruins' starting setter and the NCAA Freshman of the Year. Lauren earned that honor partly because she came back to beat her dad's team in front of 13,000 Devaney Center fans who were struck watching the tournament MVP wearing True Blue and Gold instead of the Scarlet and Cream she grew up with.
A Careful, Cautious Coach-Player Relationship
Since her return to Lincoln, Lauren has nourished her Husker roots, energized the team she captains and leads, and has faithfully given back to the community. Dad/coach and daughter/player have been very careful, even cautious about their relationship.
At last Monday's press conference, for instance, Coach Cook elaborated on ways in which Lauren has been humbled after leaving a team that went on to win the 2011 national championship. We should point out, however, that Lauren led Nebraska to the 2010 Big 12 Championship as a sophomore and the school's first Big Ten Championship as a junior. And don't forget her performances this fall while leading Nebraska to a pair of wins over No. 1-rated teams, UCLA and Penn State. "How many people can say that?" Cook said Saturday night.
"I'm not sure she would trade any of the experiences she's had here at Nebraska," John Cook said. "She's an amazing kid. She's done a great job and worked very hard. It's not easy having your dad be the coach. I think she's done a great job of managing that.
"That's what it's all about," Cook added. "You come to college. You go though these experiences. You learn, grow and get humbled. You compete, get a degree and prepare for the world. That's what it's about for all these kids. At the end of the day, that's what they're going to remember – the journey they've been on and all the things that go with it, good and bad."
Saturday night was not a peak in terms of team performance, but it could not have been better in terms of endearment or emotion. Volleyball's version of "Can You Feel It" is "Can You Dig It" and a laser-focused, hard-driving, top-winning head coach could both feel it and dig it Saturday night.
Emotional Coach Has Trouble Holding It All In
When Lauren gave her dad a tiny volleyball during pre-game introductions, "I got very emotional right there," John Cook said. "I was doing everything I could to hold it in. You'd have to read what she wrote, but I was very caught off guard."
When Cook happened to look down and see the writing on the ball, "I was getting ready to bawl," he said, adding that he made sure "the guy down at the end of the scorer's table" would keep that precious little ball before returning it to Nebraska's head coach at the end of the game.
"That was a very, very … she does stuff like that all the time," John Cook said of Lauren while clearing his throat.
This particular personal message, though, whatever it is, will be a lifelong treasure.
John Cook sees a promising future for that tiny little volleyball. He, in fact, intends to commemorate it in the most personal way possible. "When I read what was on that ball," Cook said, "I knew I had to keep it and put it in my office."
Where it will stare at him every day that he holds the honor of being Nebraska's head volleyball coach, not to mention the father of a player he loves dearly.
Send a comment to email@example.com (Please include current residence)
Follow Randy on Twitter at www.twitter.com/RandyYorkNsider


text:
Saturday October 26, 2013
11:00 AM Come listen to some stories and make a craft to take home. For ages 3 to 8. Story time begins on October 12th and continues through November 23rd. Registration is required in person or by phone at 973-538-6161. Sponsored by The Friends of the Library.


text:
To start the '15 roadster I choke it a couple of pulls, turn the switch to BAT, and it starts on the first pull. When I try to start on MAG, absolutely nothing happens. I tried the 1156 test, and at the slowest idle I could manage without killing the engine I got 7 to 9 volts. A little faster idle, making the bulb bright, got 12 volts. A fast idle got 17 volts. The car seems to run about the same on BAT or MAG. I did observe that none of these idles was particularly smooth. Any suggestions?
Start on battery and run on mag. Mine is the same and it seams to run fine on mag once I switch it over. Over 38 it wants to sputter, but that could be carb adjustment. (I have an Schebler OF so it's set it and leave it)
This assumes you are using known good coils.
Give it two pulls with choke, turn switch to mag, advance the spark lever 3-4 notches (on mag only) and give it a hard upward pull creating as much speed as possible.
Report back.
Ron the Coilman
Ron, I'll try that again when the new coils arrive. The ones that are in there now are the coils I robbed out of the touring. I think they're OK, but I'll try it with the new ones and go from there. Meanwhile, I'm going to check timer and plugs to see if cleaning/setting will smooth out the running.
By the way, starting on BAT and running on MAG is OK with me if I have to do it, but it just bugs me that a brass era car that's supposed to start without a battery won't. I'm not a total purist, but I'm enough of one that I'd prefer not have to "cheat" with a battery in the trunk.
You must advance the spark in order to start on mag---(full retard on Batt starts) Paul
Study this diagram and it will help explain.
Magneto Fig8.pdf (48.5 k)
That should read: 15.5 degrees ATDC as Ford recommended.........
As to the Batt. terminals that appeared on the boxes: There were some things the Old Man wouldn't admit to if you paid him.
Here's a downloadable instruction manual from 1912. Magneto starting is discussed on page 11.
Regards all,
Let me see if I can put into words what this is about in a simple explanation of why a properly timed T will not start on magneto unless you advance the lever about 4 clicks. There is a pulse from the magnet that occurs at 4 degrees AFTER top dead center. That is the pulse you need to fire your coils to start on magneto. With lever in full retard the timer contact will go "open" about 9 or 10 degrees before that pulse shows up to fire the coils so crank as hard as you can and you still will not get that spark to fire your plugs because the timer is not connected when that 4 degree pulse shows up. Advance the lever about 4 clicks and the timer will then be "on contact" at the time that the 4 degree magneto pulse shows up and you will get that spark. Remember that the locations of -4, 18.5, 40...are locked because they are determined by the magnet locations on the flywheel. They don't move so there is no danger in advancing the spark a few clicks when the switch is in the Magneto position.
Hope this helps.
can you show a picture of where the spark rod should be in the proper position for Mag starting, as mine has only ever started on mag ONCE since I've been starting it in the last 2 years.
Garnet, that link just opens this thread again.
Sorry about that - a dumbzeihmer's moment on my part:
http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/p268001coll12&CISOPTR=3541 &REC=1
If that still doesn't work, just go to the home page and search for Instruction Book for Ford Model T Cars
@Garnet: Worked for me. Thx.
With fresh Champion X plugs installed (gap .025) and new Patterson coils in the box, I tried MAG starting again. Over the weekend I cleaned the timer and set the timing. In trying to start today I set the spark in several positions, from fully retarded to advanced down a couple of inches. Zilch. Nada. Muerto. Not even a cough. Running the 1156 test on BAT, a low idle as slow as I could manage without killing it, and the bulb dim, produced 7 - 9 volts. At a medium idle with the bulb bright I got 14 volts. Running fast, with the bulb really bright, produced 19 volts. Switching over, the car seems to run at least as well on MAG as on BAT. The only thing I know I haven't done is clean the mag post, so I'll try that next. Any other ideas?
Are you sure you are turning over fast enough to generate power for the coils?
Of course the question becomes, how fast is fast enough? You seem to has a good speed in your videos but there should be a way to measure the RPM's at the point it is needed when the magnets pass the coils on the mag plate. You probably could take a video or use an existing video and view it frame buy frame in your video editor, then calculate the speed. Then I could do the same thing on a good mag start video and compare the results.
You can see a mag start in the first 1/2 minute of:
I have never measured the voltage output of my mag.
This is perplexing?
I agree with Jim T. A good hard yank (video) and that will fire the coil on magneto. If it will run when started on battery and switched to magneto with the readings you obtained cleaning the mag post is pretty far afield.
Tell us about the procedure you used for setting the initial timing?
Have you ever checked the compression on this engine?
I am also concerned that when switching from battery to magneto at a fast idle you do not notice a noticable increase in engine RPM.
There must be something else wrong and we are missing it?
Ron the Coilman
Yep, I agree the mag post idea was pretty much grasping at straws because I couldn't think of anything else. The voltage readings I got suggest that's a blind alley.
My timing procedure (ala Jerry VanOoteghem) was as follows:
"1. Remove #1 spark plug.
2. With ignition off, hand crank engine, (or have a helper do it), with your thumb over the #1 plug hole. Feel for a pressure build up, indicating that you're on the compression stroke.
3. As soon as you feel pressure building, stop the cranking.
4. By looking into the plug hole, you should be able to just see into the cylinder bore. While you're looking into the bore, have your helper continue to crank slowly until you see the piston come up to its highest point. Stop cranking.
5. Look at the position of the pin in your crankshaft pulley. You may need a small mirror. The pin should be exactly horizontal. If it's a little off, either crank more or, if you've gone too far already, put the transmission in high gear and rock the car back to nudge the engine as needed.
6. You are now at Top-Dead-Center, compression on #1 cylinder.
7. Install your new timer and position it at least close to where the timer rod would fit when the spark lever is all the way up. Do not install the timer rod yet.
8. Connect the #1 sparkplug to its plug wire and lay the plug on the head.
9. Turn on the battery ignition. Don't be alarmed if #1 plug is firing.
10. If #1 is firing, turn the timer, by hand, counter clockwise, (as viewed when standing in front of the car), until the firing stops. If it's not firing, skip to the next step.
11. By hand, slowly turn the timer clockwise until #1 just begins to fire. Stop turning at that point. Shut off the ignition.
12. Set the spark lever about a 1/2" down from the top, (or from the fully retarded position).
13. Adjust your timer rod so that with the timer positioned as described above AND with the spark lever in the 1/2" position, you are able to attach it to the timer. Be careful not to move the spark lever or the timer in this process. The timer rod will likely be too long or too short to fit and will have to be bent accordingly until it fits. Once adjusted correctly, install the rod and cotter pin it.
What you have now is an engine timed to fire at TDC with the spark control 1/2" down. This guarantees that when the spark is all the way up, the timing is retarded and is therefore safe for cranking.
14. Test your work. With the linkage all assembled, move the spark lever all the way up & turn on the battery ignition. There should be no spark at this point. Slowly move the spark lever down until #1 plug just begins to fire. Your lever should be very near the 1/2" setting. If so, re-install the #1 plug and test run the engine. If not, re-adjust the timer rod and look for sloppy, loose components in the timing linkage and correct those problems."
No, I haven't checked compression. I'll do that and see what I find.
The problem is probably some little detail we're all overlooking. I'll just have to keep trying different things until I find it.
Since this is a '15 roadster you can look easily below the radiator and see into the crankshaft pulley. Humor me and do this. Set the lever to full retard and turn the ignition switch to BAT. Pull the hand crank handle ever so slowly and STOP immediately when you hear a coil buzzing. I dont' care which one. If you think you pulled it passed the point where it started buzzing then just pull forward some more but ever so slowly and sneak up on the exact point where a plug starts buzzing. STOP there. Pull the crank handle back out of the pulley and look at the crank pulley pin. Pretending the pulley is a clock face, is the pin horizontal at 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock or is it higher up on the right side like from 8 o'clock to 2 o'clock position. Or is it lower on the right as in 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock position?
Are you using an accurate digital meter for your magneto tests or did you use an analog type (with a needle)? I see a problem that nobody else has noticed.
I just checked the pin. It's exactly horizontal. The meter is analog. What does that tell us?
I had trouble starting on mag, until the " first" time. It seems to take a bit of confidence, a little advance, and a quick (this where confidence applies) pull.
Try it with a warm engine the first few times. Once it starts on mag a few times, it seems like it works better (probably because I am less afraid to pull hard with the spark advanced.
Assuming you are measuring the 1/2" spark lever setting at the steering quadrant and not at the end of the lever, then about 1/2" = 5 notches and when full retarded would equal about 14 1/4 degrees ATDC. This would be close to the 15.5 ATDC position recommended by some and it would follow that the best position for starting with the mag should be about the same setting or 5 notches down from fully retarded position.
Now, your most recent post you said that the the pin is horizontal when it begins to fire. This would indicate that your timing is set very close to TDC in the fully retarded position and it should start on the mag in the fully retarded position.
I set my timing just past TDC when fully retarded and it starts well on the mag or battery when the lever is in the fully retarded position. I don't have to remember to change the spark setting depending on how I'm starting, just set it all the way up and start it. It saves another opportunity for operator error.
It means your timing is advanced too much and could be hazardous to your arm when starting on battery but also your attempts on starting on magneto now would be even more difficult if you are advancing the lever based on instruction book which assumes your timing is at 15 degrees retarded. Normally the timing if set correct would result in initial timing being set at about 15 degrees retarded (3:15 O'clock on the right hand end of the pin). 4 clicks advanced from there would put you at about 3.6 degrees retarded which would be just barely enough to start on magneto but 5 clicks would put you at about 1 degree retarded which would be fine for magneto starting but with your setup - if you advanced 4 clicks then you would be at about 11.4 degrees advanced. I would reset your timing the easy way and just use the pin. You don't need to measure piston drop nor mess with any of that to set T timing on a brass T since the pin is clearly visible and is way more exact than trying to determine piston position. Every time the pin is exactly horizontal, a piston is exactly at Top Dead Center. Has to be that way since the pulley pin hole is the reference for the throw angles of the crankshaft and the pulley pin hole is the 000.0 Angle reference.
I think the reason you cannot start on magneto is 2 fold. Your timing is off but not far enough off with zero lever setting to prevent magneto starting. I would reset the timer based on ARM safety when starting on bat. The main problem is that your magneto is weak. I base that on the 19 volts that you measured "Running fast with bulb real bright". On my T I can burn out that bulb rather easily and any decent magneto during the same test will produce well into the 20-30 volt range rather easily at high RPM. What you need to understand about starting on magneto is that it is the speed of the magnet passing the coil that induces the current. Slow magnet speed produces not much current but if the magneto gap is large or magnets are weak, you don't get much current even with fast speed and that is what the higher RPM low voltage readings are telling you. Also Ron Patterson noted that you don't seem to notice much difference when you flip to magneto from battery after starting. Usually the higher voltage of the magneto will produce an instant timing advance when you switch to mag from bat. Yours seem to be "so so" - again pointing to a weak mag. To start on magneto you do have to have a healthy magneto but then it is in fact pretty easy.
Hope this helps. Please humor me again and reset your timing to the safer 15 degree retarded point since you do have a stem winder and your present setting is not a good safe place for it.
I respectfully disagree with Jerry's method since it seems not to have produced the correct setting and to my mind is just way too complicated. I think Jerry is a democrat but then maybe not because he seems like a very nice guy when I have met him and I am probably going to catch some heat from him in a couple of weeks for tweeking him here - grin. I am looking forward to renewing old friendships at the MTFCI tour in a couple weeks.
In truth I don't really care what method is used to set the timing only that you end up with it set correctly. I stood right next to Frank Woodin when he got his arm broke and I ended up taking him to a couple of hospitals since I was tour chairperson on that tour. I was just about to say to him that "it sounds like your timing is not right" when it bit him. I don't ever want to see that happen again to anyone including you, me and Jerry too.
Don't worry too much about Steve's safety, he has the art of safety hand crank starting a Model T perfected to a T and has a video to prove it.
I would bet that Mr. Woodin was not using the correct method of hand cranking when he broke his arm.
I do agree that any person cranking a T should know exactly how it is timed and it should never ever be timed so that it is anything BTDC when the spark is fully retarded.
The question I had is how fast do you need to crank it to start on the mag? So I videoed several attempted starts with some starting and some not. Then using the known video frame rate of 30/sec and measuring the angle of crank rotation from one frame to the next I calculated the speed of each no start and each start. I got this:
19.5 degrees in one frame = 97.5 RPM NO start
20.5 degrees in one frame = 102.5 RPM NO start
23 degrees in one frame = 115 RPM Start
24 degrees in one frame = 120 RPM Start
25 degrees in one frame = 125 RPM Start
28.5 degrees in one frame = 142.5 RPM Start
So it looks like at least on mt T that anything at about 115 RPM and higher works for mag starting. I'm sure that other cars will preform differently.
The photo is just a single frame of the video.
You might want to gap your plugs at 0.030 the recommended gap by Ford.
I run my plugs at that gap without problems.
Joe R.
You cannot test one T and make the sweeping conclusion that 115 RPM will work on all of them. I hate to keep harping on this subject but TIMING is everything. I almost hate to keep going here since I am already getting hate emails from this thread ha ha.
The ONLY pulse you can start your model T with by hand cranking is the 4 degree retarded pulse as identified by posted timing diagram. That one ONLY! Why? Because even it you are a very strong man, you will not be able to get up the momentary instantaneous speed of a few milliseconds to quickly pass the magneto coil winding by a fast moving magnet when you are pulling AGAINST compression. Thus advanced timing of the other firing positions prevent their being used for starting. BUT.... when you pass through TDC suddenly you get HELP big time from the compression itself now pushing down along with your arm strength. This is how you get the sudden acceleration necessary to induce the coil current high enough to get you that spark. You simply must have the timer in the right position so that the 4 degree mag pulse is connected to the appropriate coil when you jerk that hand crank. I personally believe the main reason for the magnet placement on the flywheel at the retarded position was ALL about getting that one pulse at 4 degrees so the T would start easily by aid of compression thus increasing magnet speed a ton for an instant. If that pulse were moved to 4 degrees advanced you would never get it to spark since hand crank speed would probably be too slow regardless of your strength unless the engine had little or no compression. I have seen an 80 year old lady (Mirriam) from Alabama who could hand crank start her T and it was mainly because of this cranking speed assistance given by the engine compression once she got the thing past TDC.
Does this help make it clearer?
As an electronically-challenged individual, I appreciate efforts by John, Ron, and others who get it to explain to me what I'm doing. It's not your fault if I'm too thick-headed to get it all on the first, second, or third reading. I'll keep plugging away until I do. Don't give up on me.
I have the two articles, that Ron regularly posts links to here, printed out and stapled together. I periodically re-read them. I get it while I'm reading it, but have a hard time explaining it to anyone else. Then I find when I re-read them, I always learn something new. Maybe one day, it will all sink in and stay there. But then again.....maybe not.
We agree about the cranking speed, like I said, "I'm sure that other cars will preform differently". It was just something that I have never seen measured and was a fun exercise, both physically and mentally. Those same coils on my HCCT will put out a consistent spark at less then 60 rpm but apparently not in the car under real conditions. I need to measure my mag voltage to get an idea how it compares to other cars. All I know know is that it starts well on the mag and I have a significant increase in speed when switching from 6V to mag.
I agree that the timing is the key to good starting on a mag. I also understand what your are saying about rocking over center to get a little speed boost from the compression. However at only 4 degrees after TDC the piston only has traveled down less then 0.002" from it's highest point. Probably not enough of a mechanical advantage to increase the cranking speed significantly. Now at the 26.5 degree mag spark point I would expect to see a increase in speed due to the compression but that is getting kind of late.
John Regan,
The timing method Steve referenced was purposely made "complicated" so as to cover every last detail, (that I could think of), for newbies, (or Democrats).
It should have produced the correct setting as it calls for a spark, with the crank pin horizontal and the spark lever 1/2" down. Steve's spark was with the lever fully retarded. (Perhaps Steve is a Republican?)
This all assumes however that there is very little slop in the timer control linkage. I see in another post that Steve had some slop in the spark rod lever. That would have botched up my timing procedure and likely did. (Looks like Steve fixed the original instead of buying a new one. Democrat?)
Looking forward to seeing you in MN John. We can discuss politics there. ;>)
(To those who haven't followed the entire message string and John's earlier comment/ribbing towards me, the "political" comments are in response to him. Please take no offense)
I agree Jerry that likely politics isn't affecting the settings here ha ha. I also agree that slop in the linkage can affect it a bunch. Method used is not important but final result is very important. If one pulls the timing lever down and then slams it back to full retard it can "toss" the timer to a more retarded position than "normal" and this can be dangerous if that is the position it is in when setting the timing. Later if one then has the wife retard the lever they pull it up slow leaving the slack in the timer such that the timer is now at its most "advanced" position. On some T's this can be enough more advanced to bite the person starting the car. I always tell folks when checking their timing to pull the lever down and then put it back up slowly to the top. This leaves the timer in the most fully advanced position and thus if the timing then shows 15 degree retarded pin position (9:15-3:15) then all is perfection. Unfortunately if there is linkage slop then setting for zero at 4 clicks is not going to be a repeatable situation. If the timing wasn't so important for arm safety it would not matter that much. The problem is that black era cars with aprons under the radiator make it difficult to see the crank pin. Brass era cars are easier. When possible - the best time to set the timing on any T is when the radiator is off the car. Contrary to what is often posted, I don't find that much difference from timer to timer and I have used New Day and Anderson interchangeably without finding the timing affected enough to warrant having to rebend the rod. Perhaps I was lucky. I don't change timers very often. I do however pull the crank ahead 4 times after final timing to verify that I get the same pin position 4 times in a row thus testing all 4 timing positions. This verifies timing cover centering and also any possible bent or miss located contacts in the timer.
You mentioned an error I saw in an older thread. You said that the 15 degree setting is the same as the 9:15-3:15 pin position. Actually the 15 degree setting should be 9:30-3:30 positions. If you set the pin at 3:15 and 9:15 then the timing would be 7.5 degrees ATDC.
30 minutes on the clock is equal to 15 degrees.
Jerry, my course of action in l'affaire du slop was totally apolitical. It was ethnic (Scotch).
yeah but my clock is metric ha ha.
Actually I tell folks to set it so that the pin is noticeably down on the right side since it is really about safety and there is plenty of travel in the lever to get one all the advance that is necessary. You are correct of course. Either setting (3:15 or 3:30) is fine by me but I do get worried when it is set exactly at TDC and NO the time setting does not change with daylight savings time ha ha.
On a separate note - doctor I know said that even today the break of the arm bone at the usual place it breaks from hand crank is called in medicine a "chauffeur's break".
Some people rebuild there crank handle and weld a new shaft on it . One time I had an engine here who was nearly impossible to start with the crank .Then it came out that they drild the hole for the rachet on the wrong place. Now my question : what is the best crank handle position in relation with the crank [pully] pin .
THANKS for your answer !!
I understand completely Steve. I'm Belgian
Your question is relevant to this thread and the simple answer is that when the pin is horizontal the crank handle is 30 degrees counter clockwise from vertical or horizontal. There are four possible positions that the handle can be when the pin is horizontal but if you are cranking correctly and pulling with the left hand the crank needs to pass the TDC position when it is at the 11:00 o'clock position. Now it is possible to pull the crank from the 8:00 o'clock to the 2:00 o'clock position without passing TDC and there is little chance it would start. So to have a good chance of starting on the mag it is important to start the pull with the crank handle near the 8:00 o'clock position with the crank pin in the vertical position. It also makes sense that if you can start the power pull as far down as possible you will be better off. That is if you can start pulling near 7:00 o'clock, then you have more of a chance to get the engine up to the required speed to fire the mag/coils by the time you get to the 11:00 o'clock TDC position.
Here is a photo with the crank pin horizontal:
And another:
And the pin in the hand crank shaft should be abut 70 degrees from the crank handle, as:
I did finally check my mag output voltage. When running on the mag and using an Triplett antilog meter I measured a minimum of 14 volts at a slow idle and 33 volts at a fast speed. This is a little more then you measured on yours so it may follow that you may have to spin your engine faster then I need to spin mine to get it to fire on the mag.
What is the condition of your magnets? Maybe a in car magnet boost would help out.
Because of when the power pulse is available and the needed position of the timer to catch it what would be the possiability of a kick back with a mag start?? Both T's will easly mag start once i learned about the needed advance on this forum and i have never experanced any sort of kick this way.Sounds scary till you have done it.Bud.
Starting on magneto is almost impossible on any pulse from the magneto other than the one at 4 degrees retarded. That is because of the boost in cranking speed that you get on the "down side" due to compression aiding you instead of fighting you. If you want to prove it out one way or the other, pull the plug wires off of the plugs and leave the plugs in the motor while propping the wires close to ground. Advance the lever to the 18 degree timing position and crank away while watching the spark plug wires. I doubt you will be able to get enough speed on the "upside" against compression to generate a 1/8" spark distance via the magneto and coil. If your motor has really weak compression then it might be possible to generate such a spark but I doubt you can. I am not that strong myself so I know I can't do it. Make sure your timing lever precludes the spark being the 4 degree retarded magneto pulse since that one is easy.
It would be possible to it to fire before TDC but when starting on the mag there is quite a safely margin. Once you advance the spark lever 3 to 5 notches to pick up the 4 degrees ATDC mag spark you would have to advance it another 22.5 degrees or about eight notches to pick up the next mag spark. And unlike starting on the battery, not only would you have to advance about 11 to 13 total notches but also have to be turning the motor over fast enough to fire the mag at that point.
Depending no how your car is timed, you could get a bone breaking kick back when on battery power with spark advance of just a few notches and slowly turning the motor over. In fact you could get a kick back on battery power without tuning the engine at all under the right (wrong) conditions, kind of a backwards free start. The bottom line is you would have to work harder to get it to kick back on mag power then battery power. I wonder if it has happened before? Probably has.
Jim: Thank you that is what we NEED !!!!
What is needed with all the right info is for people to get in front of their Ford at [The place of learning]!! I wonder the percentage of T owners who will not crank their T's from fear?? Thanks guys! Bud.
Several years ago, I saw a post (I'm almost possitive it was on this forum) from someone who actually proposed the crank be removed from the car or at the very least used only as a conversation piece. THAT person needs a Model A with an auto advance distributor.
At the Colorado-Wyoming tour 2 years ago, one of the participants blew his starter and had taken the crank off. This was after several other problems, and he left the tour before the final day and trip over Trails Ridge Road. If I had known earlier of his problems, I would have loaned him my crank to start his car. Even if you don't use it, I suggest leaving the crank on the car.
Don't get in a hurry! Just last weekend, I stalled the car backing up and jumped out to crank start it, forgetting to retard the spark. I didn't get hit, but called myself several stupid names!
Will it start on mag now that the compression is up?
Let me see if I understand this properly. There are two methods of hand cranking the Model T.
First is on battery. In this case, the timing should be fully retarded. The spark lever is fully up and the spark starts at about 15 ATDC. This will ensure the spark will not occur before top dead center and thus prevent kickback and a broken arm.
Second is on magneto. In this case, the spark lever should be pulled down 3-5 notches which is 8.55 to 14.25 degrees. (2.85 degrees per notch.) With initial timing of 15.5 ATDC, this advances the spark enough so the timer turns on at 6.95 to 1.25 ATDC. I see where the 5 notches allows the magneto pulse at 4 ATDC to fire and start the engine, but not the 3 notches of advance. But at 5 notches, since the spark is at 4 ATDC it will prevent kick back and a broken arm.
I believe this makes sense to me, but two questions. First, since one cannot get the engine cranking fast enough to get a spark on the compression stroke (BTDC), would it really matter if the spark lever was advanced more, even all the way, since the only one that will work is the 4 ATDC. Any BTDC pulse would not fire (too slow cranking speed.) And so since no pulses BTDC will fire, one cannot get a broken arm while hand cranking on magneto regardless of spark lever position. Second, wouldn�t one want the lever advanced far enough before the 4 ATDC magneto pulse so the coil had plenty of time to saturate, and not just �catching� the 4 ATDC pulse, so wouldn�t 10 or so notches be much better, since even at 5 notches, that only provides 2.75 degrees of rotation to saturate?
Good question. I would not say that say that it is not possible to crank fast enough to get it to spark BTDC on the mag. Assuming that everyone cranks correctly by pulling with the left hand and that the normal pull is from 8:00 o'clock to 2:00 with the TDC point at 11:00. Then if the pull was started at 180 degree BTDC rather then the normal 90 degrees BTDC, the 41 degree BTDC mag pulse would be at about 12:30 and the 18.5 degree BTDC pulse would be about 1:30. It would be very easy to get it up to speed to fire at the 41 degree or 18.5 degree BTDC positions.
The bottom line as long as you pull with the left hand, you should be good in any case. Of course some strong arm will come up and spin the engine at 200 rpm with the right hand and all bets are off.
Now if you set your timing as I do and as a few recommend, it should start on battery or mag just fine with the spark in the fully retarded position. My timing is set just past TDC, maybe a degree or two. On one hand there is less of a safety factor but on the other there should be no confusion about the need to advance 3 to 5 notches when starting. "Now was that 5 notches of advance to start on battery or mag?"
I don't know haw many degrees before the maximum mag pulse it takes to get the maximum spark.
Wow, just a degree or two past TDC. I hope you don't have any slop in the linkage anywhere.
Don't be scared,it works!! Unless its free every start is stem wind for me.Bud.
Tom and Jim have some good points. Not to put anyone on the spot, but I'd like Ron or John's thoughts on this. I, too, think it is possible to crank fast enough to get a spark BTDC on mag, so I'm not about to try advancing it all the way to find out. Especially since I crank with my right hand. I seldom try to start on mag, but sometimes I do. I have better luck with a warm engine. Battery just seems easier, so that's how I normally do it.
Here is a little more info.
From the 1917 Ford manual, instructions on starting on the mag it states that "Care should be taken not to advance the spark too far, as it may "back kick"". So, at least Ford thought it was possible for it to bite you if advanced too far.
Also from another thread John R. said, "If your timer is set incorrectly to advanced position and you have the switch set to battery then you will get a kickback but with the switch set to mag you won't unless you have something really screwed up with your setup." I guess having the spark fully advanced when starting on the mag would qualify as "something really screwed up".
I believe Ford recommended setting the initial timing at 15 degrees ATDC (the 2 & 1/2 inch rule) was for safety reasons.
I agree with John Regan. The only "reliable" way you could start the engine on magneto was to advance the magnets on the flywheel by 7 degrees. Hence you could take advantage of the speed of the downward moving piston and the spark occurring 4 degrees ATDC.
You could not rely on starting with the spark later and anything earlier was potentially dangerous.
Additionally, the engine ran well under most (Model T era) conditions with spark occurring at about 18 or 41 Degrees BTDC.
Ron the Coilman
The brass steering gear quadrant has a range of 20 notches eg Lang's 3509 Steering gear quadrant, solid polished brass.
If the timing range on the crankshaft is 80°, does it then follow that each notch on the quadrant represents 4° on the crankshaft?
That would make sense to me. The standard steel spark quadrant has 28 notches and assuming the full range of timing adjustment is 80 crankshaft degrees this give 80 divided by 28 = 2.85 degrees per notch. Then for a 20 notch spark quadrant it would be 80/20 = 4 degrees per notch.
Of course this is an average and not a linear change because when the differences in the length of the spark level arm, the radius of the timer and the orientation of these to the timer control rod.
Two thoughts. One is that as Jim points out - the lever position using notches or "click count" does not provide a linear relationship to amount of timer rotation in degrees. The 4-5 click position has demonstrated enough advance to "catch" the 4 degree ATDC mag pulse for magneto starting on a typical T that is timed reasonably correctly. Second thought is that advancing the lever further or "all the way" and assuming that the T will start only on the 4 degree ATDC pulse anyway assumes the timer has infinite closing dwell contact time to catch all of the magneto pulses that ever occur. Remember that as you move the timer lever you are moving a "window" of timer contact dwell time that must encompass the 4 degree ATDC pulse whose time is absolutely fixed by flywheel magnet position and engine block magneto coil position. For any pulse from the magneto to fire a coil, the timer must be connected to a coil at the time the pulse occurs. The 4-5 click positioning of the lever usually places this dwell window to be straddling the 4 degree ATDC pulse.
Upon rethinking my post above I suspect I didn't help clarify since in fact the timer does encompass likely all of the meaningful pulses from the magneto at -4,18.5, and 40. I tend to focus on the leading spark since it alone actually ignites the cylinder and the trailing sparks from the other magneto pulses don't do anything after the ignition event has occurred. The material point is that the 4-5 click position sets the timer to catch the correct mag pulse to start the car. That is the simple point at which I should have stopped any further explanation ha ha. I am getting too old and my brain is already on tour. We are leaving for the MTFCI tour in about an hour.
Thanks Jim & John.
Good to find out about the steel quadrant and its [range of?] 28 notches (average 2.85° per notch).
I have just now read this thread for the first time. A lot of really good information. Two things, though. One a point I have not seen. One, a clarification.
Steve Jelf, et al,
How level was the car situated when you made your voltage measurements? The gap on the magneto is critical. MOST model Ts have more end-play in the crankshaft than they should. I measured one with over fifteen thousandths one time. Due to clutch pressures, slightly tapered bushings and bearings and a few other things, crankshafts tend to float either forward or backward when the engine is running. But when you are cranking the engine, you are pushing the crank in and therefore the crankshaft back. This widens the magneto gap to maximum. If your engine tends to float forward, you may be taking readings when it is at it's best. When you are cranking it, it will be at it's worst. For this reason, when you take those "idle-voltage measurements", park the car facing up on a slope. Gravity will tend to float the crankshaft backward (widening the gap) and give you a measurement more like what you have when hand-cranking.
Second. The burst of cranking speed is not all about compression pushing down and giving an assist.
When the traveling piston is halfway up the cylinder, it is moving at it's fastest in relation to crankshaft degrees of rotation. Both physical drag and rising compression are resisting that travel with their greatest leverage. When the piston nears the top of the cylinder, Both the increasing compression and the physical drag go to nearly zero. This is occurring at about 10 degrees before top dead center. The sudden loss of resistance versus your powerful pull results in a short burst of speed. (Basic fluid dynamics. Pressure vs resistance equals volume/speed.)
Why is this important? Maybe it isn't. Except to understand that the compression push assist occurs about the same 10 degrees after top dead center, or about 20 degrees rotation later. Those 20 degrees give you the time for the crankshaft speed to accelerate. That acceleration may give just the burst of power to the coil to fire the cylinder.
This forum is one of the best sources of basic and advanced physics and electronics since growing up around my grandfathers ranch (farm) and my fathers TV repair shop. Thank you Ron P., John R., and others. I learn more here than anywhere else these days. (College mostly taught me fancier ways to say what I already knew.)
Drive carefully, (John, have a great time on the tour!) and enjoy, W2
If the emergency brake is set the magneto gap will be at it's greatest limited only by the rear main bearing thrust surface.
Ron the Coilman
I presume the attached rods are the same distance apart in both early and late 3530 spark rod levers?
Word Lead (rather than Spark) used in 1917 UK booklet.


text:
KDE 4.1 Released, Dedicated to Uwe Thiem
6 months after the release of KDE 4.0, the KDE community today announced the released of the second feature release in the KDE 4 era. Lots of changes have gone into this release and the KDE community hopes to be able to make most early-adopting users happy with this release. Lots of feedback from people trying out KDE 4.0 has gone into KDE 4.1, filling most of the gaps people experienced with the 4.0 releases. Highlights of KDE 4.1 are the KDE PIM suite, which has returned in its KDE 4 incarnation, a more mature Plasma desktop and many, many new features and applications. Make sure to take some time to read through the high-level changelog or even the more detailed feature plan on Techbase. Before you try KDE 4.1, please read the KDE4 End User FAQ and make an educated guess whether KDE 4.1 is for you.
The release is dedicated to KDE's contact in Africa, Uwe Thiem. Uwe passed away after a kidney failure two weeks ago. Africa's new press contact for KDE is AJ Venter, a friend of Uwe's who stepped up on short notice to help with filling the gap Uwe's death leaves in the KDE community.
Meanwhile, KDE's Release Team scheduled a number of bugfix and translation updates. KDE 4.1.1 will be made available on September 3rd, 4.1.2 will be out on October 1st, and 4.1.3 will be there on November 5th. KDE 4.2.0 will in 6 months, the release date is set to January 27th 2009.
better than others(vista/osx)
let's hack on it. I miss only panel hidding from kde3X, but it is planned for 4.2
Linux is VISUALY better than VISTA or OSX.
By zvonsully at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
That's the beauty of style, it's not limited, but it's quite clear that something must be beautiful in OS X as everyone copies the crap out of it.
I'd get rid of the menu bar, but that's my NeXT preferences showing through.
By Marc Driftmeyer at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
OS X looks nice, but I wouldn't say that everyone copies it.
By T. J. Brumfield at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
Copy may be to big a word, but I do agree OS X sets the pace right now - and has been doing so for a while. They simply have a huge influence because they're ahead of most others, both architecturally and artistically speaking. Having some excellent ppl with a lot of freedom and a flexible architecture does that to a product ;-)
That doesn't mean MS, Gnome and KDE don't have their own unique look & feel, but saying they aren't influenced isn't right. On the other hand OS X doesn't stand entirely on its own either, seen the way they switch users? (they use the cube from Compiz for that)
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
I'd completely disagree with you there with no offense to the software developers who have poured their heart and souls into KDE. (As a software developer myself I can appreciate the work that goes into a project this size)
The kicker/start bar/quick launch/clock widget area still needs work. The buttons on almost all the screenshots for all the apps are too big (I guess perhaps a 80px rounded button is really needed for KDE), the open/close/minimize/maximize stylings still look off perhaps due to the strange alignment. Worst of all, the fonts still don't look well chosen. They've come a long way but i'd suggest that the default font shown there still doesn't fit.
Now, with all that "bashing", i've got to say that KDE has come a long way and i've been trying it out almost all the way. I know my complaints are almost all changeable here or there or in this .conf file but to say that the default install looks better then OS X is just crazy talk. OS X has a major advantage; it has a large crew of people that just work on its art. It's not their contribution to an open source project in their free time, it's their job.
That said, thanks to all the developers and people that made this release.
By MikeTV at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
AFAIK some people did work only on KDE 4's art but (in my opinion, but not in that of many people) it did not turn out to be better than the previous defaults.
By Grósz Dániel at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
wow, I disagree. The artwork in KDE 3.5 wasn't that bad, but Oxygen is applied much more pervasively and consistently throughout KDE 4. Whether you like the style or not, I think you must agree on that. The artists have much more influence compared to Everaldo had during 3.x - which makes sense, as there's an official team now ;-)
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
Well to each its own, I suppose. But I too find KDE4 look depressing.
By Luciano at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
I upgraded my kubuntu to KDE 4.1 yesterday and when I looked at it it was amazing. Beautiful even. The wonderful bright blue swirling background was the perfect highlight for Plasma and Oxygen. I do have a slightly custom colour scheme in that the window decorations are blue instead of white, but I'm not taking credit - it simply looks absolutely incredible.
When I get home I'll post a screenshot.
By matt at Thu, 2008/07/31 - 5:00am
True,but Oxygen style is still behind competitors
Well, to me it seems that KDE is doing a good job to implement default styles that are - technically seen - competing with the current MS Windows release. Plastik was the first KDE theme that was polished in the sense that the design of buttons fitted to lines, borders, boxes, tabs etc. But it was behind of OSX in the way that animations were limited to animated progress bars and that antialiasing of widgets not existing. Lines and 3d-borders were still RGB-(No-A) bitmaps.
Oxygen improves that. The philosophy of the style is different from Vista, the colors are OSX alike. The style is well thought in the sense that the Windeco, buttons, lines, boxes and tabs (and evene icons) fit well together. But still the number of animations is very limited and there are many unpolished non-antialiased widgets.
To me, the theme Skulpture is really nice. Its artistic philosophy is simple (maybe a bit old-school), but it offers at least a few smooth animations and is polished even in the sense that widgets are antialiased.
Just take, for example a sunken ListView. The 3d frame is sunken and has a gray "shadow" on the white interior. An item of the listview is selected using blue color. In Skulpture the frame's "shadow" fades into blue around the selection. This is what I call "polished" and where I believe KDE reaches the quality of OSX/Vista. I hope the Oxygen guys can keep with Skulpture. The basic ideas of the style are awesome, though I am afraid the implementation is finished when KDE5 is already around the corner.
By Sebastian at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: True,but Oxygen style is still behind competitors
I am afraid of that too...
The problem is there aren't many developers to do so (I think there are 3 or so). Draw the widgets can be a hard task since you have to make it on C++. Nuno's mockups are incredible, and I think that is the way we all (including the developers) want KDE to look like, but "draw" everything in C++... :/
I would help if I know how to code, but...
There was a project named Cokoon that the main objective was to make it easier to artist draw their own theme... but I don't know what happened to that project.
By SVG Crazy at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: True,but Oxygen style is still behind competitors
Looking at some mockups at http://nuno-icons.com/images/estilo/ it seems to me that (as far as the widget style is concerned) it is nearly achieved and that's what I don't like, mainly because the lack of contrast. No problem, Plastik is fine for me (and even Plastique even though I like Plastik scrollbars better than Plastique).
By Grósz Dániel at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: True,but Oxygen style is still behind competitors
Erm, maybe you are mixing up things here, but there are no animations in Skulpture yet. Are you talking about Bespin?
Regarding shadows, Skulpture uses overlay widgets to get them, so performance suffers. I doubt KDE developers would implement them this way, but future KDE/Qt versions could offer "native" shadows. I think there were some ideas floating around on Trolltech Labs. The whole RGBA and shadow situation is a mess anyway. X11 and X window managers need a major redesign. Try ARGB/shaped windows with shadows... OSX and Vista are ahead in respect to that.
Anyway, I think KDE developers should not put much energy into Oxygen's widget style, but instead lay a solid foundation on which theme designers can build there own styles. Creating Plasma themes is already quite easy, that's why you see so many of them popping up at KDE-Look.org, and nearly all of them of very high quality. But creating a widget style is a very tedious task.
I remember someone saying the reason there are next to no third-party widget styles available for KDE 4 is that with Oxygen there is no need to find a better style. I doubt it. The real reason is that they are not easy to create. Imagine creating a widget style would be nearly as simple as creating a Plasma theme or an Emerald window decoration. KDE-Look.org would get flooded with new ideas, and encourage others to pick them up and improve upon.
Nuno's dream: Paint it in Inkscape and save it! He wouldn't stop drooling, if this suddenly came true...
By christoph at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: True,but Oxygen style is still behind competitors
"Nuno's dream: Paint it in Inkscape and save it! He wouldn't stop drooling, if this suddenly came true..."
That would be the perfect situation... We can dream, can't we?
I think that was the object of Cokoon... do not know what happened...
By SVG Crazy at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: True,but Oxygen style is still behind competitors
Qt 4.x supports SVG, so theoretically you could do things in inkscape, but the problem is; you need to derive all classes and implement your own paint engine, which will do SVG rendering, and it is Hell amount of work, and it is not a job for few afternoons.
By doc_ds at Thu, 2008/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: True,but Oxygen style is still behind competitors
:) yeah then the animations :P
By nuno Pinheiro at Thu, 2008/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
That depends. Oxygen not recognizing system colors, and presenting this overt white interface while Plasma displays an overt black interface, combined with a krunner that looked really out of place in 4.0 led me to believe there wasn't much in consistent design or application of Oxygen. The desktop had some polish and shine here and there, but it looked rather disjointed.
It is coming more together, but thick, dark Plasma themes still don't seem to mesh with Oxygen. Some of the thin, very transparent themes seem to compliment the white Oxygen look.
That being said, I really love Nuno Pinheiro's mockups, and the closer KDE 4 looks to his designs, the happier I will be. Many of his early mock-ups featured quite a bit of contrast and some rather innovative takes on tabs, scrollbars, etc. I'm not sure why the actual early Oxygen implementations were so different from the mock-ups.
I'm also still hoping that someday someone will combine some of the nice effects of the Oxygen widgets with some of the wonderful elements of the KDE 3 Domino widgets. I loved the Domino scrollbars and custom gradients especially. Domino wasn't overtly minimal, yet it didn't scream wasted space either. I'm glad to see Oxygen eliminate some of the excess white space, but it could still trim down a bit.
By T. J. Brumfield at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
Yep, OsX is real purdy.
By A.M. Benson at Fri, 2008/08/01 - 5:00am
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
Obvious Troll....
By Johann at Fri, 2008/08/01 - 5:00am
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
Compared to KDE, OSX is just not ready for the desktop... I mean, they are trying, but they sure have a long way to go.
By hmmm at Sat, 2008/08/02 - 5:00am
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
Hmm I thought by visually you meant it comes with sub pixel font rendering working and not stuck with everything at 96dpi, is that fixed to a usable degree? It drives me batty across my dual boot desktop and mac and pc laptops for work.
as far as the visual design is there usability/eye tracking testing and what not for kde? just curious I'd love to get involved
By quik77 at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: better than others(vista/osx)
Perhaps you mean that KDE is visually better than Windows Vista or the OS/X desktop (or does Apple have a better term for it?). IAC Linux is an OS like PC-DOS and OS/370 are OSes. Linux is not a desktop and it does not have a GUI. IAC, you need to compare KDE to Windows -- in both cases the underlying OS is not the issue.
By JRT at Tue, 2008/08/05 - 5:00am
Congrats and thanks to everyone who helped make this release!
Already looking forward to KDE 4.2. The improvements in 4.1 are impressive, but I think with 4.2, KDE4 will really start to shine :)
By Joergen Ramskov at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: Congrats!
Uwe has an excellent release dedicated to him!
By Jos at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
And Thank You so much. Been using the development versions for a while now and it's already amazing. Can't wait for 4.2!
By Jens Uhlenbrock at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Thank you!
A big thank you to all the people involved, especially the developers!
KDE rocks!
By Sepp at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Slick Announcement page
I'd like to thank the folks who put together these announcements pages too. This one is particulary well done I thought.
Congrats all guys and gals!
By air at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: Slick Announcement page
Thanks Jane, encouraging words are always welcomed :)
By Sebastian Kügler at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: Slick Announcement page
Sebas has outdone himself once again, that's for sure :D
Re: Slick Announcement page
I'll second that. I really appreciate that the announcement is more honest and up-front about the state of KDE and who it is suitable for.
Having explicit target release dates for the next minor and major releases is a great help too.
By Robert Knight at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Slick Announcement page
Couldn't agree more.
I really loved the screenshots with short summaries below them. It gave a nice "feel good" feeling. In fact, I'd suggest to mix the bullet items above more with the screenshots below.
And the added honest notes about NVidia performance and "is 4.1 for you" is also a plus IMHO!
By Diederik van de... at Thu, 2008/07/31 - 5:00am
Congratulations :)
Many thanks for the great work, I used KDE 4.1 RC and I liked it, I am sure I will love 4.1.x even more.
I have a request for KDE veterans, for new Linux/KDE in general we have little knowledge about KDE history and progress over the years. I would like to see a paper with screenshots showing the progress of KDE from version 1 beta to the amazing KDE4 platform. I think KDE project started around 10 years ago, at that time Win98 was out. So it will be great to see how things progressed.
By Kais Hassan at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: Congratulations :)
By Jonathan Thomas at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: Congratulations :)
Thanks, some of the earlier version screenshots look like they came out of an old SCI-FI movie :)
By Kais Hassan at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: Congratulations :) - history
I've also seen a "visual changelog" somewere.
Ps.: from me CONGRATZ too, great release :)
By kalle at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Thank you !
II just want to say I love you !!!
By BogDan at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Very nice
Been playing around with kde4.1 since beta and i must say it's one smooth experience now.
By adrian at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: Very nice
Games in KDE have come a long way, but they do rock. I would like to say thank you especially to our artists who have done a great job in tailoring new suits for the KDE games.
By Stefan Majewsky at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Way to Go KDE! No thanks for RedHat sellouts
The screenshots look wonderful. Just imagine how good KDE would be if it had the support of RedHat... It's sad that these supposedly FOSS-friendly corporation is choosing to develop an inferior product (GTK/GNOME) simply so that unscrupulous ISVs can use their LGPL'ed framework without sharing anything back. Any developer who cares about software freedom should work on KDE because it is protected from proprietary leeches, but alas few are aware of this subtle point. The KDE community should really raise awareness about this more in order to attract FOSS-conscious developers.
By Bill at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: Way to Go KDE! No thanks for RedHat sellouts
Now now, please be professional. That sort of talk makes us look bad
By John Tapsell at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: Way to Go KDE! No thanks for RedHat sellouts
Yeah. No need to create a flamewar. I thought Linux was all about choice.
Thanks for A GREAT RELEASE!
By KIm Timothy Engh at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: Way to Go KDE! No thanks for RedHat sellouts
Red Hat supporting GTK/Gnome is actually a good thing for KDE. Without Gnome, KDE wouldn't of had any immediate competition on the *nix platforms, as most other environments fill a different niche (more minimalist/lighter). Without the immediate competition there would have been less motivation to innovate, less opportunities to try different methods, less ability to try something big.
Gnome is good for KDE, just as KDE is for Gnome. Neither would be close to where they are today without the other, and theres no way to 'combine' them (the environments or the development teams) without destroying exactly what has got them this far.
KDE 4.1 is already an *extremely* nice desktop environment (I've been using SuSE's snapshots for a while), but at this point I have high hopes for Gnome/GTK 3 being nearly as innovative as KDE 3 -> KDE 4 is showing to be, not because I use Gnome (or like using it) but because I know it'll help drive KDE forward.
By Kit at Tue, 2008/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: Way to Go KDE! No thanks for RedHat sellouts
On principle I'd say competition is good, yet at the same time both projects seem to be hurting for developers. Both projects have a laundry list of features for a myriad of apps, and developers claiming that they don't have time to finish them.
Is it completely necessary for developers to duplicate gedit with kwrite (or kwrite with gedit)?
Neither koepete nor pidgin can finish voice and video support, yet that is one of the most highly requested features for either IM client, and has been for years and years.
Competition is great, when there is market enough for all these projects. I remember reading that Gnome started largely because people were upset that QT "wasn't free" back in the day, so Gnome was created as a "free" desktop. Yet today, QT is GPLed, and some might contend that Gnome is considerably less "free" today (integration with Mono, LGPL all over the place, etc.)
One could also contend that the moment QT became GPL, the driving need/force for Gnome vanished.
Others also insisted that Gnome is necessary because of KDE bloat and poor performance. KDE offers vastly more features, with superior performance these days. Gnome doesn't provide the same level of consistent design (or kpart-type usage) across it's platform.
If Gnome is largely a design philosophy of simple apps, and simple appearance, Gnome could exist today on top of QT. Oh, and Mark Shuttleworth is saying the same things these days.
A more unified underlying shared codebase of basic libs would really bring the freedesktop project together.
Gnome could provide a unique desktop experience that looks like Gnome (QT-Clearlooks engine) with streamlined features, and whatever design they want. It could still be a competing DE. Yet, it both used QT as opposed to the GTK/QT rift, we wouldn't necessarily need two of every project. One simple editor (like kwrite or gedit) would suffice. You wouldn't need to rush out and make a separate one for GTK or QT.
By T. J. Brumfield at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Way to Go KDE! No thanks for RedHat sellouts
I think you forget how this stuff works. Fundamentally, people do things in open source because it's fun for them. And for me, doing KDE stuff is fun, while doing Gnome stuff won't be. Doing KHTML stuff is fun, but doing Gecko stuff won't be.... And I am sure that there are many Gnome developers who have the opposite viewpoints. Different projects have different cultures and different technical philosophies, which make them better fit for different contributors.
And in light of this, it's also not a matter of whether it's necessary to have both gedit and kwrite (which is actually a rather mundane wrapper around katepart, or more accurately the text editor interfaces, which power quite a few things) --- it's a matter of whether there are people who want to make them and enjoy making them the best there is. And competition isn't really necessary for it, either, as if one is having fun making things, one wants to make them rock, though it can help set higher goals.
By SadEagle at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Way to Go KDE! No thanks for RedHat sellouts
Nothing to add. Thanks SadEagle :)
By Sebastian Sauer at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Way to Go KDE! No thanks for RedHat sellouts
I'm not saying people can't do different projects if they so desire. That would be pretty silly to suggest.
Again look at Pidgin and Kopete. Both are very similar apps, and neither can seem to keep up with crucial features, or finish voice and video. Even if they still existed as two apps, but shared more libraries, and both built upon QT, I think it would make life easier for both projects.
Even many Gnome/GTK devs claim they tire of how GTK themes are handled, and there seems to be discussion about making GTK themes more like QT/CSS themes. Coupled with the Gnome/GTK devs screaming they want to abandon current APIs and start anew, I think if there was ever a time to consider unifying around QT, now would be the time. I really do believe it would be largely beneficial to everyone.
By T. J. Brumfield at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Way to Go KDE! No thanks for RedHat sellouts
By Ernesto Manríquez at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Way to Go KDE! No thanks for RedHat sellouts
I did see that interview, but thanks for the link anyway.
I think his comments are pretty interesting.
By T. J. Brumfield at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Way to Go KDE! No thanks for RedHat sellouts
> Is it completely necessary for developers to duplicate gedit with kwrite (or kwrite with gedit)?
ask gedit devs and they'll say yes..
ask mcdonalds and burgerking to merge. or ask all countries to tear down their borders and speak one language.
By cies breijs at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am
Situation normal
> On principle I'd say competition is good, yet at the same time both
The more we develop, the greater our plans and ambitions become. It should not be surprising that the TODO list is alway greater than current capacity. I can't think of any piece of software except perhaps for some of the smallest utilities or libraries that don't have TODO lists which outstrip their developer capacity. This is the nature of software development.
As for KDE I don't think we are "hurting for developers". We have a stead and strong stream of new people joining and helping out. New SVN accounts are being made daily. I can't speak for Gnome, but I get the impression that they are in a more precarious position w.r.t. new developers.
And concerning competition between the two major FOSS DEs. I think the competition aspect and its influence on the progress of both DEs is overrated. Most FOSS people I have met don't appear to be motivated by some drive to "beat" the other guy. Most people just want to create the best software they can, taking inspiration and ideas, (and help!) from many sources. Cooperation not competition, is how progress is made.
By Simon Edwards at Wed, 2008/07/30 - 5:00am


text:
Wood County Election Results - Race Detail
Results for Presidential Preference & Spring Election, Tuesday, April 05, 2016.
Results are unofficial until the canvass is complete on Tuesday, April 12, 2016.
To get results for write-in candidates, contact your
local municipal clerk.
This page does not automatically update.
Turn auto-refresh on.
Return to Election Results Summary
Results Detail by Precinct
Outstanding Ballots
The following ballot counts are outstanding in Wood County precincts with this race on the ballot.
Provisional Ballots Outstanding:


text:
Please leave feedback for bpsimpson22 here.
Please leave feedback for bpsimpson22 here.
Very honest and trustworthy buyer. Sent marker and accessories C.O.D and buyer paid promptly upon receiving the items and invoice. Buyer was very professional and pleasant to deal with. I would highly recommend this buyer and would not hesitate to do business with this buyer again.
Last edited by retread; 09-03-2011 at 03:44 PM. Reason: Spelling Error
Bryan bought my PRG gas thru and some dye grips. Had great commuincation thru and thru and paid quickly.
Thanks again.
Bought a part from me, paid quickly, and was great working through a mess up on my end. Thank you!
Bought an RT Pro rail with sight rail and foregrip bracket from him. Shipped promptly and packed well. Thanks for a good deal!
Purchased a VD Helium Rail from me. Great communication and quick payment. Highly recommended.
Purchased a set of DYE stickies, came exactly as described with quick shipping A+++
Bought a few spare parts
Great communication and fast shipping!
payed for frame and received it within 3 days. Can't ask for anything better than that.
Sold me 15* ass. Lightning fast shipping. Thanks
great seller. everything was as described, fast shipping
Bought an RPG foregrip from him. Very easy to work with and mailed the item very quickly! I hope to work with him again in the future.
Same day shipping on Acid Trigger. Great communication. Yet another great deal with a great seller.
great seller here! very easy to deal with! fast shipping, packaged well, great communication, over all a great transaction! cant wait til tha next deal! thank you sir!!!
Bought a pair of CCM fittings and one detent from him. Good communications throughout, fast shipping, and great packaging. I would do business with him again with no second thoughts.
I bought a RPG Shadow rail with no hitch, smooth as butter! Thanks again
Just purchased a RPG frame from bpsimpson22. Great communication fast shipping. The frame was in perfect condition and was just what I was looking for.
Thanks, Paul
Bought a RTP ASA from him. Shipped quick and as described. A+
I bought a field strip screw from Bryan and He went so far as to put a tracking # on a cheap sale. Great dude to deal with. I'm very happy with with the transaction and WILL! buy from him again.
I took the road least traveled...now where the hell am I ?
sold him an RPG rail paid fast, great transaction, wish all deals went like this one. thanks again and hope you enjoy it
Great buyer -- sold him my Pneumag ( ). No issues whatsoever; would do business with him again.
Bryan purchased from me. Good communication and paid quickly A+
Good guy, good communicator, detailed, would do business with him again.
Obstacles are what you see when you take your eyes off of your Objective.
super fast shipping,
great guy to work with.
will buy from again.
Quick shipping and great communication - would definitely do business again.
Great seller,very good communication, fast shipping.
In my country we say : "vous pouvez y aller les yeux ferm�s !"
Thanks a lot !
Last edited by El Huron; 09-03-2012 at 06:24 AM.
Fast payment, Great communications!! Thank You!!
got some wood grips w/rubber inserts....fast shipping and easy to deal with... A+
replies fast, ships quickly, no issues here. thanks!