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Thursday, February 21, 2008
Doesn't atheism inevitably lead to nihilism?
A: No. Atheism doesn't lead inevitably to anyplace, any more than starting in St. Louis inevitably means you have to end up in New York. It's a starting place, not an entire route; the final destinations at the end of the trip are as many and varied as there are atheists.
Regarding nihilism specifically -- the general philosophical position that our existence (action, suffering, willing, feeling) has no meaning -- it's certainly possible that someone starting out with "I don't believe in god" might end up there.
But that's just one possibility among uncountably many other ones.
For instance, an atheist might believe that while there is no God, there are other planes of existence to which we might be able to aspire, and thus continue our lives as trans-humans. Or they might believe that we humans are capable of creating our own meaning, which gives our lives purpose and direction. Or that there certain actions are more aligned with the natural order of the universe, and that acting in accordance with those rules is healthier. Or that they live on in their children, and this is the meaning for which they live.
You get the idea -- there are lots of different ending positions you might arrive at after beginning with a lack of god-belief. To argue otherwise would be like someone telling a theist "Ah, since you believe in a god, then your fondest wish must inevitably be to die so you can go join Him, and therefore this life has no real meaning for you."
In general, whenever you hear someone say "Atheism means ...", swap out "atheism" for "theism" and see how much sense it makes. Atheism and theism are both very, very broad terms; trying to tie either of them down to very specific positions generally leads to errors.
(Update: I rarely update this site any longer. For more discussion on this topic, please see Jason Rosenhouse's excellent post "Must Atheists Be Nihilists".)
44 comments:
There is no grand purpose as everything that is, was, and will be is an accident. We are nothing more than cosmic residue. As Professor Richard Dawkins said: "The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference."
We are merely delaying the inevitable.
- April 8, 2008 at 12:20 AM
- Jeff Hebert said...
That's one way you can look at life, but certainly not the only one. All the wildflowers in our yard are there by accident, but they're still beautiful. I met my wife accidentally, but I still love her. I was an accidental birth, but my life is still meaningful to me.
Even if the universe has no intrinsic "meaning" or "purpose", I can still provide it with my own. Indeed, one way of looking at it is to say that it becomes even more important and vital for us to provide meaning if we aren't just handed one.
This is what I mean when I say that a given starting point is no guarantee of a destination.
- April 8, 2008 at 7:53 AM
"we humans are capable of creating our own meaning, which gives our lives purpose and direction."
I found this a good explanation of why some atheists choose to live their live according to values.
I still don't understand why atheists, as people who don't believe in any afterlife and consequences for leading a bad life don't live lives stealing and acting as they wish because lets face it the vast majority of people DO NOT have an purpose or direction and 'immoral' acts which nihilists would not have an issue with can really improve ones standing.
Interesting post and blog mate, you should resurrect it.
- August 26, 2009 at 6:03 AM
- Jeff Hebert said...
Thanks Michael. I ran out of frequently asked questions!
It's been my experience that people are pretty much going to live according to their inner moral sense regardless of what system is put on top of that. You can get Catholics who think "Well I might as well be as bad as possible here, because I can just confess before I die and it's all good." I am sure there are atheists who do exactly as you describe, and get away with whatever then can, however they can, simply because they want to.
Just like there are lots of theists who are the same way.
In other words, I haven't found in general that someone's professed belief system (whether one of belief or non-belief) is a very good guide as to how they're going to live their lives or treat other people. It wasn't atheists who flew their planes into the World Trade Center, after all :-)
- August 26, 2009 at 11:08 AM
But basically aren't you just asserting that "meaning" is purely subjective and relative to an individual's feelings? There is no real meaning but only what you want it to be...can't this be a dangerous path for someone who has violent, narcissistic tendencies? It seems that the only way for this to really work (sustain a cohesive, civilized society) is if humans are naturally good, obedient, and compassionate. I think humans have done a fairly good job proving that this just is not so.
- October 22, 2009 at 12:56 PM
- Jeff Hebert said...
Dhimmi, you said:
... can't this be a dangerous path for someone who has violent, narcissistic tendencies? I
Well, yes, but you could stop at "someone who has violent, narcissistic tendencies" and you're already in a lot of trouble. Take that person and put them in a hardcore Christian sect that believes it is our duty to bring about the End Days as soon as possible and you've got just as big a disaster. The problem with such a person is not their philosophy, it's that they're violent and narcissistic.
- October 22, 2009 at 3:44 PM
I struggled a long time with the notion of meaning and purpose and ultimately it was the scientific reality of the finitude of time and space that has pushed me over the edge out of atheism. If cosmology has compelling evidence, which seems to be the case, that universe will die out, ultimately humans will cease to exist at some finite point in the future. With that truth in mind, I just can't to find a legitimate basis for assigning meaning to my life. Assuming that there is no physically transcendent eternity, then no action, achievement, or mindset could possibly change that final reality. I suppose even if the energy of the universe reformed into another universe (which seems probabilistically near impossible) it would not change the situation, as potentially "new humans" would not have any knowledge or relation to us. What is particularly peculiar to me is that there is this drive in me to live on past this truth. Looking back, I think it could have only been some sort of intrinsic knowledge that eternity exists that allowed this drive to live on. So, all in all, I was just wondering if others have thought of this. I guess this goes back to what Jeff said about other realms of existence outside of the physical world. Anyone with thoughts?
- November 19, 2009 at 1:48 AM
- Jeff Hebert said...
I guess to me, the ultimate demise of the universe isn't much different from knowing that you yourself are inevitably going to die, as well. Either way, existence as you know it, personally, is over. If religious faith makes you think there's "something" after your own death, then why is it any different after the universe's death?
In other words, I don't think knowledge about the universe -- from a scientific understanding of the behavior of gases to quarks to everything in between -- can either confirm or deny the existence of a god (or gods), or what happens outside the bounds of what we can experience. It can invalidate certain conceptions of god, of course, but not of the vaguer "is there something after nothing" questions.
I don't think the idea that humans have wanted there to be something after nothing is evidence that there is in fact something, though. We've also long wanted something FOR nothing, and yet there are no free lunches, either. The desire for a thing to be true does not mean that thing is so.
If you're looking for a reality-based reason for hoping the universe doesn't necessarily end, there are theories out there that might give you comfort. We're in an eternal cycle of expansion and contraction to a singularity and back out again ... there are multiple universes and this is but one of an infinity ... etc.
That again doesn't say anything one way or another about a god. But, if what you're thinking is that because billions and billions of years from now things might ultimately end for everything, that's not necessarily true. And even if it is, it's irrelevant to my way of thinking because your personal universe comes to an end some time in the next hundred years anyway, so what's the difference?
- November 19, 2009 at 7:23 AM
I suppose the definition of atheism may bear on the question of whether or not it leads to nihilism. The "atheist" who believes in consciousness outside the human brain would not seem to me to be very ardent in their "atheism". So those who believe in ghosts for example, but not a supreme being could be atheists under this broader definition, but I should expect they would not be as nihilistic as atheists who deny any bodiless sentience.
- March 16, 2010 at 4:30 PM
- Jeff Hebert said...
Even an atheist who does not believe in a consciousness outside of the physical mind (like me) is not necessarily a nihilist. You're concluding a destination based on the starting point, which is unwarranted. Just because you start with no belief in any god, and further that everything that is, is all there is, even that doesn't inevitably lead to nihilism any more than a specific kind of theism leads necessarily to predisposition.
The key part of the question, and the underlying assumption of your comment, is that "inevitably" word. Conflating atheism with nihilism is simply incorrect. One MAY lead to the other, but it might not, either. Just like with theism -- you can start in one place with one assumption and end up in an infinity of destinations.
- March 17, 2010 at 3:05 PM
- Dylan said...
I think nihilism is indeed a natural consequence of atheism.
If there is no god or indeed no higher power/creator that defines what is right and wrong, just and unjust, then we can assume that the morality we feel comes simply from the wiring of our own minds.
It is evident that humans (and other species) must have developed a sense of morality (via evolution) in order to allow cooperative communities to form easily. (i.e. those individuals who where able to cooperate survived and passed their morality to their offspring whose successive generation added to in the same manner).
This explains why we feel the moral urges we do and where they come from. We can see that a bad thing is only considered bad because we are "programmed" to avoid it because it is (or was) disadvantageous to our survival.
In reality a bad thing is not judged as bad by anything but ourselves and can be disregarded.
On the topic of existence itself, it can also be disregarded because it simply exists and nothing more, there is no divine creator who can ascribe reason and purpose to anything.
So I think all atheists are also nihilists. If they don't know it then they just haven't been introduced fairly to what nihilism is and/or haven't thought about it.
- February 4, 2011 at 10:10 AM
- Jeff Hebert said...
In other words, Dylan, any atheist who isn't a nihilist is either ignorant or wrong. Nice.
Frankly I wasn't able to make any sense out of your comment, it was like a word salad.
- February 4, 2011 at 11:04 AM
When I was a child I learned right from wrong through a combination of methods: from receiving praise when I behaved well, from receiving discipline and incurring my parents' disappointment when I behaved poorly, and via explanations that went something like "you wouldn't like it if someone did that to you, so you shouldn't do it to them." I grew up in the northeast which is relatively secular and I tend to think that most of my peers learned their morality through a similar method. I don't think I was ever told "because god will punish you" or "because it is what Jesus would want you to do". As I got older, I learned that, although there are plenty of exceptions, generally if you are nice to people, they'll be nice back. If you are generous (without being a sucker or a pushover) people will be kinder, more generous toward you. If you lie, cheat, or steal, you might get away with it occasionally, but usually it comes back to bite you in the a**.
There are many who believe that atheism inherently means a lack of a moral code, which I think goes sort of hand in hand with the nihlistic view of "no meaning". But I tend to think that in the secular parts of our country, regardless of what people state to be their religious beliefs, most people's moral code and moral (or amoral) behavior doesn't really derive from religion.
I'm not entirely sure I've made a point here, I've just been sort of thinking out loud... :)
- June 18, 2011 at 2:20 PM
- Jeff Hebert said...
You not only made your point, you made it well :-)
You can look at countries that are largely secular and see that they are hardly hell-holes of immorality and rapine. In fact, they score rather better on most quality of life issues than more religious nations.
A Christian would usually respond that even if, as this sort of thing seems to indicate, we have an innate moral code, that code derives from God even though we don't admit it or know it. Which always makes me wonder, if He could build such a thing right into us, why not install a Divine Radio or something as well so we could chat? And why make this moral sense so inchoate and vague, so variable and general? It would make more sense, it seems to me, to have a super-duper moral code that would shout at us rather than whisper, if He really wanted us to have a guide as to what He wants even when we live in a society that is not centered around Him.
Regardless, yes, I agree, it doesn't seem to be disputable any more that our moral sense derives from pre-existing biological imperatives, both in light of the kinds of secular societies you mention and from continuing research into the world of animal behavior.
- June 19, 2011 at 12:49 AM
Nihilism posits that our existence holds no intrinsic value or meaning.
Therefore, nihilists may still adopt their own values throughout their lives. For instance, one may accidentally stumble upon wildflowers, a beautiful woman, or realize the improbability of their own existence. They then assign meaning to these things.
The question is: Are wildflowers, spouses, life, etc. intrinsically meaningful OR do we assign meaning to them?
Now, for my opinion. I'd like to hear what you think.
The answer to the question should be straightforward to both theists and atheists. The theist would say that meaning is intrinsically assigned to our lives by some type of deity. And the atheist would agree with the nihilist viewpoint; Life could not possible hold intrinsic meaning. Rather we create that meaning for ourselves.
- July 7, 2011 at 11:31 AM
- Jeff Hebert said...
I think most of the time when an atheist is asked this question, "nihilism" has a much harsher connotation than the simple definition would give it. In general, what's really being asked (usually by a theist) is, "Doesn't atheism mean that without God there is no meaning in life and so you might as well shoot yourself or someone else in the face?"
In other words, I think what's being got at is that for a theist, a universe without God is fundamentally meaningless, scary, and leads inevitably to chaos, death, horror, and suffering.
Setting that aside, as I mentioned in the original article, you can't really start from atheism and end up with there being no intrinsic meaning. Buddhists are atheists, essentially, yet believe the universe does have intrinsic value and meaning, granted not by a conscious god but simply through the structure of reality. Helium has certain properties due to its atomic structure, and so do actions -- whether or not to kill a wildflower has meaning because it affects your own spirit's evolution as it travels through the Ninefold Path.
If you're talking about metaphysical naturalists, though, then yes, all meaning is assigned by us, without having any particular "meaning" in the sense that a theist would usually mean.
Theists might say everything has meaning because God tells us it has meaning, in which case meaning is subject to change as God tells us different things. Or the theist might say that God created the world such that everything has meaning, so it's intrinsic in the same way the properties of atoms are intrinsic.
In other words, as I've argued elsewhere, it's very, very difficult to start with such incredibly broad terms as "theist" and "atheist" and know where you're going to end up along any particular philosophical spectrum. Because humans can rationalize pretty much anything, you can start with one or the other and end up in exactly the same place.
If you're asking about me, personally, I think to a large extent the entire exercise of whether existing has meaning or not is fairly pointless. It's like the free will debate -- it's not knowable, so spending time arguing about it fairly masturbatory -- it feels good but doesn't really get you anywhere.
- July 7, 2011 at 11:47 AM
But atheism is intrinsically nihilistic isn't it? I made the connection on my own about atheism and nihilism because I just finished the Woody Allen film, "Match Point", and I thought what a nihilistic view of the world. Then I thought of other famous atheist film makers with a voice...Robert Altman, Roman Polanski, and Stanley Kubrick...and their films are extremely nihilistic. So, there's four of the world's most highly regarded atheist storytellers basically showing us how atheists view the world...the nihilism is evident.
There's also the fact that no matter how much atheists would like to place an emphasis on the meaning in life, it really sums up to nothingness in the grand schemes of the universe. Love is just a man made fallacy, as phony as any religion or God. And if atheist cling to "love" and morality then they are living in a delusion as much as anybody who believes in spirituality because love and morality are not quantifiable things. Morality only exists because humans made it up. It's not any more real than the Santa Claus. That atheists would cling to morals and love is silly just as people of religion cling to God. In reality humans are just a BLIP in the evolution timeline of the universe. In the atheist world, it doesn't matter what humans do because when humans are gone, that's it. What difference does it make what anyone does? That's the truth if there is no afterlife and there is no God. Atheists just want to float through life pretending that things matter, when they don't. It's sad really, because atheists are pretty hard on people of faith. But the truth is, because atheists cling to "love", they are living a delusion too...they just won't admit it. "Love" isn't really any more REAL than God. I can see why nihilism is rampant in atheism.
- August 6, 2011 at 6:45 PM
- Jeff Hebert said...
So both Christians and atheists have finite mortal lives that are blips in the face of a universe lasting billions of years, but love only exists for Christians because the magic sky man says it exists, whereas atheists make crappy movies and therefore can't really love.
The evidence that humans experience love is pretty overwhelming. The evidence that a God exists is virtually nonexistent. If you can't wrap your head around how an atheist see that, then there's not much point in talking to you.
I can see why incredibly naive and insulting "thought" like this is rampant in Christian apologetics.
- August 6, 2011 at 7:05 PM
I tend to believe that nihilism is the only rational conclusion if one accepts atheism. The atheist is forced to concede that morality is subjective at best... being relative to the individual, society and numerous other personal experiences.
Not just morality, but all aspects of life such as beauty, love and many abstract human concepts are simply artificial fabrications of our mind. If we atheists truly wish to be rational, we must not delude ourselves and believe these things are real when there is no physical or objective evidence to posit such an argument. We are committing the same error we accuse theists doing when we hold on to unprovable fallacies.
I believe that to be a true atheist, one must embrace nihilism.
I am not suggesting we do away with love, morality, art and culture. Evolution has made us the way are to survive. I am simply suggesting that we have evolved to the point where we should be able to distinguish between what is real and what is not. What I mean is that love and morality may not be real, but it feels as though it is and we should go on acting as though it is because evolution brought us thus far, however we should know better.
- October 23, 2011 at 9:03 PM
- November 16, 2011 at 8:32 AM
No matter what way "you" look at life it's still a contrived extrinsic meaning with out a higher divine belief.
Once humanities gone no one is going to remember any of the pain or happiness. The transience of our existence by definition means that our lives our truly pointless because in the end the outcome is the same, humankind will die out eventually.
- March 6, 2012 at 7:54 AM
You can choose to live with values but honestly it doesn't make a difference in the ultimate outcome of humanity. That's why it really serves no purpose to live your life in any way as an Atheist. Once you realize this you have become a Nihilist.
- March 6, 2012 at 7:56 AM
"That atheists would cling to morals and love is silly just as people of religion cling to God."
No. This isn't silly. The lack of intrinsic meaning *does not* justify chaotic behavior or abandoning moral codes. Morals are arguably 'necessary' for humans to co-exist.
The fact that anyone would argue this tells me one thing about those who do: that the only thing preventing them from acting like a bunch of crazed murdering lunatics and bringing about Armageddon is their belief that God would disapprove of it.
These kind of people worry me, frankly; and this is why I don't spend time proselytizing atheism.
Nihilism and destructive tendencies are not, and should not be, related to one another inclusively, used as justification for each other. Nihilism is the view that life does not have intrinsic purpose or value, not an excuse to destroy it.
- April 2, 2012 at 9:58 PM
- Paul said...
Without God or some other creator, then everything material is just here by accident. An atheist trying to find meaning in an accident is just fooling herself. (Of course that doesn't prove that God exists.)
- June 5, 2012 at 11:49 PM
I find it amusing that the non-nihilits in the comments here keep repaying the refrain of "morals are necessary" as if constantly repeating it makes it true.
Nihilism recognise that morals exist as a collection of behaviors necessary to group survival. But so what? Love, loyalty, compassion etc are just biochemical brain states without any objective relevance outside neurology. In addition, so long as you aren't caught of course, having no reason to play by the rules give you a huge.advantage in life.
Tldr; Atheists that still believe abstractions like morality, community, success or altruism possess any existance or meaning beyond brain chemistry (that is, arbitrary and changeable via drugs) are as deluded as Christians.
- December 10, 2012 at 2:56 PM
- Jeff Hebert said...
Nihilism recognise that morals exist as a collection of behaviors necessary to group survival. But so what? Love, loyalty, compassion etc are just biochemical brain states without any objective relevance outside neurology. In addition, so long as you aren't caught of course, having no reason to play by the rules give you a huge.advantage in life.
I guess I would question why you are so dismissive of emotions or morals or love as being "only" brain chemicals. Yes, they are, and so what? Is the love I feel for my wife less valid because it doesn't have a metaphysical component?
If this world is all there is and we only get one shot at it, I want it to be as awesome as possible. I am capable of understanding that although I will not live longer than another fifty years at the outside, others will still be alive and I want the same for them. Me running around shooting people in the face because "CHEMICALS" is nonsensical to me.
We are capable of abstract reasoning. We are capable of empathy. We are capable of altruism. Those things aren't somehow mooted because they are physical process with a physical basis. I know how movies are made, but "Star Wars" is still a hoot to watch. When I die I'll be dead, but people I care about will still be here. I want to do my best to leave the world in as good a shape as I can so they can be happy, too. We all win that way.
TL;DR: "If I didn't believe in Jesus I'd just murder everyone" is a bad argument.
- December 10, 2012 at 4:52 PM
- Kanzeon said...
I think you need to do a bit more objective analysis.
We all know YOU aren't going to shoot someone in the face, or shoot yourself, or shoot your wife. We all know YOU have decided to live your life a certain way, and that is by fairly conventional morality. We all know that you have observed that religion doesn't stop SOME people from shooting people in the face.
That doesn't mean you aren't a nihilist.
The question, for example, of moral nihilism is whether you can argue that it is OBJECTIVELY WRONG to shoot someone in the face. You don't have to be a believer in a personal God in order to argue that that it is objectively wrong. However, you do need to believe there is something more than evolution and physical processes - a basic underlying order to the universe that in some way provides objective guidance. If your only guideposts are observational, then you need to deal with the is/ought problem. Now, some people think they have a very vague answer to the is/ought problem, like Sam Harris, but you should take a long look at why is he ridiculed, and I'd be glad to provide links. Peter Singer is much better on this question.
You have decided that you want to love your wife and make the world a better place. I might decide that I want to shoot a theatre full of people, or start a political movement to exterminate people who disagree with me. You have no objective way to argue that my choice is less valid than yours. And, as such, you have no argument for intrinsic human dignity.
That's what nihilism is. Now, it may be that nihilism is no more harmful (whatever you decide that means) than the religious alternative. You can argue that it is GOOD to be a nihilist, in that you aren't living inauthentically, if you value that. Nihilists aren't bad people. Conscious nihilist are probably, as a rule, nice folkd. Many compassionate, brilliant people were nihilists, like Camus and Heidegger:
It seems to me you are just running from a word because it has bad connotations. I think you just don't understand what nihilism is. Others - like Harris - should know better, and you just being intellectually dishonest.
- December 14, 2012 at 4:37 AM
- Jeff Hebert said...
Thanks for the comments, Kanzeon.
Look, I'm not a philosopher. The purpose of this FAQ is to answer the most common questions common people have about atheists. And one of the MOST common is "Why don't you just give up and die", which is the point of this entry. No, that's not what nihilism really means, but it's the way most people use it. And that's what I am concerning myself with here.
I realize this makes me intellectually unserious on this point. But that's ok with me. This FAQ isn't meant for philosophy majors, it's meant for the everyday sort of person.
And no, "Why don't you just give up and die or become a murderous sociopath" is not really what nihilism is, but I do think that's what most people THINK nihilism is, and thus they ascribe it to atheists not as an abstract intellectual position but as a rubber-meets-the-road pejorative. It's that sense of the word that I am addressing.
I'm sorry that's not up to the standards of a university discourse but that's not what am setting out to do.
- December 14, 2012 at 8:06 AM
- Kanzeon said...
Thanks for your clarification, and I apologize for my comment somewhat wandering and confrontational. My thought on your comment:
When people ask "why don't you give up and die?" they are, I think, asking about hope. Why go to a meaningless job everyday, why suffer through pain in old age, why watch others suffer? Part of the religious impulse is illustrated by Buddhism - the Buddha declared "life is suffering," and then determined that our experience is illusion and that we needed to take refuge from life itself.
Atheism narrows the ways in we can emotionally respond to suffering. For almost anyone, there are some days when it isn't worth living, and some of us have more of those days than others. This isn't a small question. Atheists can talk about dreaming big, making your own values, enjoying and enhancing rich experiences - but the theist responds, correctly, that these things are fleeting and unstable. Psychologists tell us that we are terrible at predicting our own happiness, which sheds doubt on our ability to individually craft personal values that can give us satisfaction. And if our dreams fall apart, our values are not shared or respected, our spouses leave us, the question of "why bother" can be overwhelming.
It is in those times that people turn to prayer, and they often do find comfort. An atheist can't offer anything similar (and wouldn't want to). But your words will, I think, sound selfish and shallow to believers. Almost none of us, believer or non-believer, really worries about whether life is worth living when are marriages are good, we are living our dreams, and our daily life satisfies us. So the answer of the atheist that you build it yourself really isn't answering the theist's question. I think the answer is: atheism forcloses or at least constricts hope in bad times. And the response of the theist that they would prefer not to surrender that hope under any circumstances is not at all irrational.
Just my view.
- December 14, 2012 at 11:00 AM
- Jeff Hebert said...
I actually thought your comment was very lucid, friendly, and thought-provoking, no need to apologize at all. On the way to work I was actually thinking I should post a follow-up thank you for being so civil, but alas, by the time I got here I forgot.
I think we just disagree about atheism limiting hope in times of despair. I find it more limiting to adhere to something that is (in my belief) entirely made up. If you have to make up something that doesn't exist to keep you from committing suicide, that's kind of sad (to me).
The universe existed for billions of years before I was born (or created if you believe in that). During that entire time time, it didn't bother me that I didn't exist, because I didn't exist. The same is true when I am gone. Death thus doesn't bother me particularly. What gives me hope and keeps me going is that just as the universe existed before me, it will exist after me, too. The people I love will exist until they, too, die, but what we do lives on in the effects it has on them, and their actions on the people they touch, etc. The Sun will explode one day, but those atoms will persist, and the stuff that makes me will maybe one day make other thinking beings.
I find comfort in that. Not all do. Such is life. I think it's a good thing that my answers don't satisfy you, just as your answers don't satisfy me. We don't have to all have the exact same set of responses to life for me to be happy. That's part of what makes the world interesting! This isn't a logic problem with one "right" answer.
Despair is not a theistic issue. It's a human issue. All cultures, all beliefs, all societies have to confront it (even all people at some point). Because we're people and despair is part of the human condition. From YOUR perspective, atheism doesn't offer a satisfying response to despair. From mine, at least so far, it has. It would be just as easy (and just as false) for me to say "But Christianity teaches that the world is temporary and only heaven matters so that would make me give up if I were in the grips of despair because this world doesn't matter, anyway. It's why the Catholic Church had to institute suicide as such a grave sin, because otherwise all Christians would act logically and off themselves as soon as possible to get to the REAL world of eternal salvation to be with God."
You can take any belief system that you personally find unconvincing (whether philosophical or theological or other) and explain why if you were in despair it wouldn't satisfy. Well, of COURSE it wouldn't, you don't BELIEVE it!
Anyway, the point of this site isn't to convince other people that atheism is the One True Way, because I don't think it is. The point is to say "This is MY way, and here is how the people who call themselves atheists might approach these given issues." It's not meant to be an evangelical site, but rather an explanatory one.
If your religious beliefs satisfy you, if they help make this very confusing and painful existence meaningful, if they help you treat others well so they too can reach their full potential, then I am happy for you and wish you well in pursuing them.
- December 14, 2012 at 11:14 AM
- Kanzeon said...
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with much of what you say. I will mention an area I wonder about, which is hope without my consciousness.
People will say they don't fear death, just as they don't fear the year 1918. I don't buy that. Pain and death is the source of all fear. So, I think it has to be true that we fear the experience of death. The question is how to respond to the concept of our death, after the experience is over.
In the end, there is only my consciousness. 1918 doesn't exist for me, except as pictures in a book that came into my consciousness. The book that was in my consciousness exists for me now only as well as my mind can remember it. In order to think about the demise of my own consciousness, I must hold the idea of nonconsciousness in my consciousness, which is just impossible. The sun dies with me, and for you it will die with you. Nonconsciousness isn't conceivable.
Death is like a six-sided triangle: by it's nature we just can't believe in it, regardless of what we tell ourselves because it is a contradiction. In a sense, I would venture you don't believe you will die any more than the Pope does.
- December 14, 2012 at 11:51 AM
- Jeff Hebert said...
I disagree with your basic premise of "Pain and death is the source of all fear" unless you extend pain to cover all sorts of things to the point where it sort of loses a discreet meaning.
In general I tend to live by a Buddhist parable that I think I've shared before. The world as it IS is plenty hard enough, without spending much time worrying about the world AFTER this one. Metaphysics sort of seems like pointless masturbation to me, I have enough on my plate dealing with the universe I've got.
- December 14, 2012 at 12:23 PM
- Kanzeon said...
Wow, it's hard to see how you would disagree with that.
An organism's first order of business is to stay alive, and avoid painful experiences, as pain is generally a sign of ill health or death. Fear comes from flight or fight, a response to physical threats. Where else could fear come from?
If you don't care to worry about such things, that is your choice. Most Buddhist sects have pretty detailed ideas about what happens when you die, most particularly Tibetan Buddhists, who wrote the Book of the Dead to guide people between lives. Every major culture has spend a great deal of energy thinking about what happens after you die. And most people who think about it haven't made their lives harder in the slightest. Quite the contrary, most of them think they have improved their lives and culture.
So, I don't see what your zero-sum parable can even mean. If you think that thinking about fundamental questions regarding consciousness is a waste of time, then so be it. But I will say that I do find a certain shallowness to the viewpoint. I can deal with my life, and consider its meaning or non-meaning. Life isn't that short. Even if I don't reach an answer, I find the questions stimulating, and they help me understand other points of view. To me, dealing with metaphysical questions is a mark of skepticism and intellectual curiousity, which I tend to think are atheist values.
- December 14, 2012 at 2:46 PM
- Jeff Hebert said...
Now we're rapidly going into "If you don't value the same things I do, you're stupid" territory. So I think this discussion is nearing the end of its useful life. One more comment and then I think we're done here.
The afterlife is unknowable, so I don't spend a lot of time wondering about it. The world as it exists IS knowable, so I spend my time worrying about that. Your mileage obviously differs. The fact that you find my indifference to making up answers to things that are fundamentally knowable is neither here nor there.
Your answers are yours. Enjoy them! But spending your time pitying me because I don't find them valuable is sort of a waste of time. Nice of you, in a weird way, but wasteful.
I'll make you a deal. I won't pity you for spending your time on unknowable things and you don't pity me for not bothering. I'm pretty sure I spend my time on lots of things you would find ridiculous, too. Again, not everyone has to put the same value on everything. It's a big Universe!
- December 14, 2012 at 2:56 PM
- Kanzeon said...
It's reached it's useful life, sure.
The death of God has given rise to a tremendous amount of agnst, anomie, listlessness. Serious post-modern art, literature, philosophy and film has an existential bleakness, instead of the heroism and tragedy of earlier generations. This bleakness, this anxiety isn't a symptom of the depression of a few people, but an undercurrent of modern thought. We can't resurrect the gods of old, but what has been left in their wake isn't entirely pleasant.
So, forgive me if I think that questions surrounding meaning and death are important, and ignoring them is nothing more than fooling yourself. And the blithe response of many atheists that meaning and nihilism isn't a significant problem seems, to many thinking, non-religious people, to be inadequate and insincere. Thank you for including me in the conversation.
- December 14, 2012 at 4:52 PM
Kanzeon- What are you saying? ..."In order to think about the demise of my own consciousness, I must hold the idea of nonconsciousness in my consciousness, which is just impossible."
Impossible? I can "think about" what things will be like when I no longer exist. I am quite sure (the possibility is extreme) the sun will still exist when I cease to exist. I understand and accept this. And when I sleep at night, am I not unaware of my consciousness.. not an equal concept but similar. Now, when I'm awake/conscious/alert, I can't simultaneously experience non consciousness, but I CAN think about it. And I believe I ought to.
Or are you saying the only reality is YOUR consciousness. The rest of us and everything are merely an extension of your consciousness.
Or are you saying something similar to the statement that it is impossible to picture in your mind a color that doesn't exist?
This was a point the christian apologist C. S. Lewis used to support the idea of the existence of God. He argued humans don't have the capacity to come up with even the notion of a god. It's impossible. Thus our capacity to speculate the supernatural is evidence that something exists within human beings that is predisposed to the supernatural. Observation, Reason and Imagination are incapable of even speculating the supernatural. Imagine a color that doesn't exist.. impossible. Invent the concept of god(s).. impossible.
Until completely aware of Ultimate Reality, we ALL live by faith. I'm a theist because I am persuaded that I am a spiritual creature.. this makes the most sense of my deep longings for meaning.. to be known and loved, for justice and joy and peace.. my admiration of honesty and bravery and self sacrifice. DNA and biochemical reaction just doesn't cut it for me.. And when I look at the world around me.. the complexity and beauty.. and consider Origins.. it just appears too grand and too impossible for Chance.. And the speculations of what might be scientifically possible within Deep Time just doesn't do it for me.. the layers of improbable chance upon improbable chance upon improbable chance. What follows is that the theistic worldview just makes the most sense to me.. I am unwilling to make what seems to me a blind leap of faith toward Atheism.. the unsupported assertion of "non belief" in God.
I wish you well and may we all move closer to Truth.
- December 15, 2012 at 6:07 AM
- Jeff Hebert said...
I don't want to get too far afield of the main question here, but this:
He argued humans don't have the capacity to come up with even the notion of a god.
This is a terrible supposition, and an example of the kind of thing that made me stop reading C.S. Lewis. Honestly, the man lived with J.R.R. Tolkien and he didn't think humans could think of things that didn't actually exist? The idea of "Like us only much, much more powerful", of "I can't see something but it still exists" is so outre that it's utterly impossible to have been invented?
Argument by blind assertion is a terrible, empty, pointless exercise. Just dreadful.
- December 15, 2012 at 7:04 AM
So you CAN picture in your mind a color that doesn't exist? ..You completely missed Lewis' point. It's not that we can't imagine things that don't exist. What he's saying is that when we do, they are ALWAYS a composite of things that do exist. It is a logically sound point, not a blind assertion. The blind assertion is that we are capable of imagining in our minds something truly original. We are creative (like God), but we never truly create (as God). When you accomplish the feat of picturing a color that doesn't exist, that would be logical grounds on which to refute Lewis' point. Until then, in my opinion, his point trumps your "terrible, empty..dreadful" or as I would put it, mistaken, assertion that it's invalid.
- December 16, 2012 at 11:44 AM
- Jeff Hebert said...
Even if you take at face value the idea that human beings are incapable of inventing something truly new, so what? That we can't do something doesn't mean it can't be done, nor (more importantly) does it mean that it needed doing. You only need a Creator capable of creating something new (which we can't do) if there was a Creator in the first place. He's assuming what he's positing, it's a circular argument. Unless you're trying to say that the very idea of a God who could create something new is so new itself that we wouldn't be capable of imagining it so therefore God gave us the idea of God? I really hope that's not the case, because that's an even worse argument than the first.
Remember, Lewis wasn't trying to prove the case for God, he was trying to give people who already believed good reasons for doing so. This argument is a good example of that -- it makes sense and is convincing if you already believe in God, but otherwise, not so much.
- December 16, 2012 at 3:51 PM
Listen, I'm no philosopher.. truth be told, I didn't graduate college.. but I don't think you get Lewis' point and I can't represent him better than he did.. I believe this argument is in the first chapter of Mere Christianity, and I believe he was in fact attempting to posit evidence for the existence of God as opposed to bolstering believers.
Again, If you grant Lewis his premise, that humans are incapable of imagining something New, and it is true that humans have imagined something beyond empirical knowledge.. or something supernatural..( I don't know how to say it,) then it follows that something beyond empirical knowledge exists. He's not assuming what he's positing. It's not a circular argument.
On the other hand, if one CAN imagine a color that doesn't exist, or if there is some other reason for not accepting Lewis' premise(s) [again, look at his argument, for more precise language] then he can reject Lewis' conclusion as not plausible. But, if the premise stands, then the conclusion is logically plausible.
I didn't join the conversation to convert anyone to my view. But, to liken, as I saw in these discussions, a theist worldview to the stuff of fairy tales, is simply intellectually unfair and needs to be resisted. Throughout history there have been countless sincere intellectuals whom, through rigorous scholarship, have come to the logically plausible conclusion that there is a God. If you too have honestly and rigorously applied yourself to pursuing Truth and believe you have come to a different logically plausible conclusion, peace be with you and may you savor with satisfaction the fruits of your labors. Best regards.
- December 17, 2012 at 1:30 AM
- Kanzeon said...
Here's an article on the possibility of imagining death:
It's not like imagining an unknown color or a fantastical creature. It is imagining the removal of the basis of imagining.
- December 19, 2012 at 12:17 PM
- Kanzeon said...
Here's an article on the possibility of imagining death:
It's not like imagining an unknown color or a fantastical creature. It is imagining the removal of the basis of imagining.
- December 19, 2012 at 12:17 PM
- Kanzeon said...
I read Lewis in this as just a clever twist on St. Anselm.
- December 19, 2012 at 12:20 PM
I heard it said "that nothing is what a rock sits and thinks about all day".
- March 5, 2013 at 8:20 PM


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April 2008
TOP Virus Prevalenceby Samker
The Virus Bulletin prevalence table is compiled monthly from virus reports received by Virus Bulletin; both directly, and from other companies who pass on their statistics. Reports are included only if they are confirmed, and hence, in conjunction with the WildList, the prevalence table provides a useful indication of the relative prevalence of various virus found in the wild at the time.
January 2008
Online AntiMalware Scannersby Samker
Online AntiMalware Scanners are a great way to find out if you have any MalWare (viruses, trojans, worms, spyware ...) on your machine without having to uninstall your current antivirus software or install a new one. You just need to be online ...
1 (2 marks)

subset: commoncrawl


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Wister, Cameron post wins in CASC Classic, but Howe falls to Red Oak Eagles on Day 1
Two of the three LeFlore County teams in the 16th annual Carl Albert Fall Baseball Classic opened the day with wins Thursday.At Carl Albert State College's Ival Goodman Field, the Wister Wildcats run ruled the Okay Mustangs 14-1 in six innings, while the Cameron Yellowjackets did likewise to the McCurtain Bulldogs by a score of 11-1.At Howe's Lions Field, the co-host Howe Lions lost 8-0 to the Red Oak Eagles, while Crowder Demons run ruled the Smithville Braves 12-4 in five innings.Wister and Crowder played in one championship semifinal Friday at Ival Goodman Field, while the other semifinal pitted Cameron against Red Oak at Lions Field Friday night. The winners will play for the championship at 3:30 p.m. this afternoon at Ival Goodman Field, while the losers will play for third place at 1:15 p.m.On the consolation side, Howe and McCurtain played Friday afternoon at Lions Field in one consolation semifinal, while Okay and Smithville played in the other consolation semifinal Friday afternoon at Ival Goodman Field. The winners will play for the consolation championship at 11 a.m. this morning at Ival Goodman Field, while the losers will be eliminated from the tournament.


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Recess Skate and Snow's wRECklESS Rail Jam, App Ski Mountain, Blowing Rock, NC
WORDS: John Paul Pardy
PHOTOS: Kyle Beckmann
VIDEO: Charlie Jonas
Blowing Rock, NC March 13, 2011 –Recess Skate and Snow along with ATP hosted the 2nd annual wRECklESS Rail Jam, March 13 at Appalachian Ski Mtn. This is one of the only cash purse events in the Southeast for snowboarding. Riders paid a $15.00 entry fee, and all that money went to the Advanced 1st - 3rd place winners. On top of that cash, DC threw in an extra $500 in to the pot.
The rail jam set up that App Terrain Park put together was amazing! Especially if you take into consideration what time of year this is and being in North Carolina. Most people don't realize how legit shredding in NC is.
Recess Skate and Snow came up with this event concept last year to help push progression in the area, and this year was no different. The setup consisted of a variety of handrail style features, along with some fun polejams, bonks, tranny finders and more just waiting for the riders to get creative and progress on. There were two category levels in this rail jam: beginnerish/intermediate and advanced. Guest judges for the event were Windells head digger Keaton Pearson and assistant head digger Chase Weaver.
Beginnerish/Intermediate dropped first in a 40 min jam session that was sick. Local shredder Julien Passajou ended up taking home 1st place, with Reilly Tardiff in 2nd, and Luke Winkelmann in 3rd. Molly Clay won standout ladies award and Zeb Powell took home standout grom. The catch with this category is 1st place automatically goes to Advanced finals! This gives the chance to win some cash and ride with the big boys.
The advanced session went off - plain and simple. Riders got plenty of laps during 40 min jam session leading into finals. Finals went down a little different... The Recess crew selected 3 key features out of the course. Each rider got 3 hits on each of these 3 features. Every hit was counted and added to a cumulative score to show ultimate shredding skill! Andrew Sanchez came out on top winning $500.00 and a dope AG Jacket, Austin Leonard took 2nd winning $200.00 and a dope pair of Oakley shades, and Kris Jones rounded out the podium in 3rd with $100.00 and some Skull Candy Headphones
With sunny skies, spring temps, and tons of stoked riders, the day was a huge success. Thanks to Analog for cooking up some dogs for competitors, along with Oakley and DC crew. Ridiculous amounts of product were given out along with a nice wad of cash. Huge props to all the riders for coming out and shredding, Recess Skate and Snow, Analog, DC, Oakley, App Terrain Park crew, Rome, Windells, Skullcandy, Appalachian Ski Mtn, and Neff.


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Paintings & Prints of Skye – Balmacara, Loch Alsh, Scottish Highlands.
An original painting & prints of The Isle of Skye From Balmacara, Loch Alsh, Scottish Highlands.
An original abstract, atmospheric seascape / landscape painting of The Isle Of Skye from Balmacara, Loch Alsh, Scottish Highlands.
A mix of mediums are blended, layered, sprayed, scraped and splattered over the canvas to produce a very unique & atmospheric painting, depicting the ever changing wild weather that constantly sweeps across Scotland's Hebridean islands & Highlands from The Atlantic.
I love to combine & layer different types of paint & application of mediums including spray paint, oil paint, acrylic paint & others, creating a unique style of atmospheric painting full of vibrant colour & drama.
The painting continues around the deep edges of the canvas giving a very contemporary style although it can be framed if you wish.
More about the Isle of Skye here.
Original mixed media painting in acrylic paint, spray paint, oil paint and acrylic ink on box canvas.
More Scottish landscape paintings & prints by location here -
Scottish Highlands - Glencoe - Isle of Skye - Loch Lomond & The Trossachs - Isle of Arran - Glasgow - Edinburgh - Stirling - Isle of Barra - Isle of Tiree - Isle of Lewis - Isle of Harris - Isle of Islay - Isle of Iona - Isle of Mull - Isles of Uist - Isle of Eriskay - Isle of Eigg - Isle of Rum - Isle of Bute - Isle of Raasay - All Scottish landscape Paintings & Prints - Commission An Original painting
Titled & signed prints are available to buy including the original painting if listed. Sizes, prices & formats below, alternative sizes available on request just get in touch. -
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PURDUE IN OUR BACKYARD: Ag center a strong resource for county
COESSE — Citizens of Whitley County have a somewhat unique resource in their backyard that is largely unknown.The Northeast-Purdue Agriculture Center (NEPAC) has been located in Whitley County, south of Coesse, for more than 20 years. Phil Walker has been the superintendent of the center since its opening, and said the center is a big help in the agriculture arena.The farm primarily functions for research. Professors and graduate students make the trek to Whitley County from Purdue's campus in West Lafayette.There students conduct research on the soils of the area. Having the center in this part of the state is crucial for this sort of research. Purdue University has eight such farms throughout Indiana, and it provides a unique slice of agriculture for those regions of the state.The main section of land at NEPAC is 170 acres and is named the Schrader Farm in memory of Denzil Schrader, the man who donated it. The Kyler farm, located two miles west of NEPAC, consists of 85 acres and was donated by Merle Kyler. This farm aids NEPAC and is a second research location. The third parcel of land is located one mile to the north of the Kyler farm and is 185 acres.Winter is a quieter period at NEPAC. Walker said his time is spent primarily planning for the summer months and working on small projects. One of his main areas of concentration is working with the tiling system at the Schrader Farm.Walker has been working with an intern during the winter months on a system that would offer more consistency.Walker moved to Columbia City in 1991 with his wife, Lynn, and son, Aaron, who was 13 at the time. Now his son lives in Fort Wayne and other things have changed, but Walker is content.Through it all, NEPAC has become part of the community. For the first 10 years of its existence, Walker would put signs along the side of roads to help farmers and others coming to NEPAC's field days. Now, most of the people who come know how to find the location. "Anyone can find us. More people know us now," Walker said. For a more in-depth look at this story, see the Jan. 10 issue of The Post and Mail. Don't have a subscription? Call (260) 244-5153 or subscribe to our e-edition. For breaking news, sports updates and additional coverage, bookmark the homepage and find us on facebook.


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There are several reasons to look for a decline in the Australian dollar versus the U.S. dollar in the coming months, and the relative cheapness of options on the AUD means investors can take advantage of this scenario in a cost-effective way.
In the attached video, I explain two reasons why I'm looking for a decline in AUD/USD. The first is that the ongoing Chinese transition from export-oriented to consumption-based growth is a problem for the export-reliant Australian economy. As Asian economies rely less and less on industrial commodities, Australian miners and exporters will be under increasing pressure. Second, the interest rate picture has diverged significantly from currency values, and given the likelihood that rates will stay flat or be cut further, a closing of the rates/currency gap would suggest more downside for dollars.
Another indicator of downside risk for the dollar is the worsening sentiment among business directors. In a survey published this week, the leaders of major Australian companies expressed serious pessimism about business conditions.
"Overall, the director sentiment index now sits at just 56.3 points, compared to 93.6 points at the start of 2011. A score of 100 is "neutral", while 200 would be "optimistic".
The directors' outlook for the Australian economy is dire, with 56 expecting growth over the next year to be weak or very weak. They expect the value of the Australian dollar, the official cash rate and wages growth to decline while unemployment rises."
The recent strength we've seen in the Australian dollar does no favors for exporters, so we can expect the central bank there to lower rates in future, and the weak rates picture and worsening fundamentals should give more downside to the currency.
Option implied volatility is at multi-year lows at the moment, so we are buyers of put options on the expectation of increasing volatility.
Trades: Buy to open 1 FXA March 102 put for $1.90 and sell to open 1 FXA March 98 put at $0.75.
We are buying some time to allow this thesis to play out, and as mentioned in the video, the favorable implied volatility skew means we can reduce our cost basis using a vertical spread without giving up too much downside potential. Our risk is limited to the premium paid for the spread, and we will expect to hold this position for some time.
OptionsProfits can be followed on Twitter at twitter.com/OptionsProfits.
Jared can be followed on Twitter at twitter.com/CondorOptions.


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Back in 2003, photographer and astronomer Fred Bruenjes traveled to the depths of Antarctica in search of a total eclipse. For his troubles, he got this absolutely astonishing image of the eclipse ripping a hole in space above Antarctica.
That image, to be fair, has been processed and doctored slightly to create a more dramatic image. Bruenjes says it's a composite of four different photographs that capture what the eclipse felt like to him. But the basics of the photo that make it so dramatic - the stark Antartic wilderness, the Sun and Moon hovering just above the horizon, and a fellow photographer and his equipment caught in the frame - are all part of the original image, which you can see here.
For a more detailed explanation of how Bruenjes found this image and created this amazing photo, check out his website.
[via NASA]


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I bought the Hand Lotion, Body Wash, and Cologne. I don't usually like rose scented items, but this is very lovely.It is light and airy and the scent lingers all day. It is a most Feminine Fragrance. Even my husband likes it.
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Not your Grandmother's rose scent
I have NEVER cared for rose scented beauty products UNTIL I sampled this on vacation in a little boutique in the Smoky Mountains. I fell in love and have used it over and over again!!! This has to be hands down the most feminine scent ever created. Not sickeningly sweet, but lovely. Perfectly lovely.
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This is the most amazing scent. My entire childhood my dad and I would visit this little boutique that carried this scent, every time I smell it now it brings back memories. I have a lot of perfumes, but I always go back to this scent, so captivating. I just love it and always will.
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Delicate fragrance
I "sampled" the hand cream in a boutique and was sold at the first whiff of the fragrance. Not only is this a wonderful hand cream, but it also has a very light, rose scent that is perfect - not too strong, but lasting. I have purchased several other hand creams in the past only to leave them in a drawer because of the sticky feeling they left on my hands. This cream does not do that and really does make my hands feel soft and smooth.
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COLLEGE STATION – Texas A&M fans barely had time to digest the news that the Aggies' opener with Louisiana Tech has been postponed when A&M hit them with more big news Wednesday morning: The Aggies and Arkansas will renew their series in Cowboys Stadium in Arlington starting in 2014 and running through 2024.
A&M and Arkansas have played the last three seasons in Arlington, all Razorbacks victories as nonconference opponents. Now, the old Southwest Conference foes are new Southeastern Conference rivals. The teams meet on Sept. 29 at Kyle Field and will play next season at Arkansas, before shifting back to Arlington starting '14.
"We appreciate Jerry Jones and everyone in the Cowboys' organization working with us over the past year concerning the future of the Arkansas series at Cowboys Stadium," A&M president R. Bowen Loftin said. "This was a significant, unresolved issue as part of our transition to the SEC, and it was imperative for Texas A&M to play Arkansas at Kyle Field this season – our first as a member of the conference.
"Having a game annually in the MetroPlex is very advantageous for Texas A&M from a visibility and recruiting standpoint, and we have an annual opportunity for our student-athletes to experience one of the country's finest football stadiums."
Wednesday morning's news comes on the heels of Tuesday's announcement that A&M and Louisiana Tech will now play on Oct. 13 in Shreveport, due to the threat of Hurricane Isaac now making landfall along Louisiana.


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There are pros and cons to learning how to be a driving instructor on your own, should you choose to do that. However, when you choose the right driving instructor training schools to train you onto becoming a professional driving trainer, it would mean the heaven and earth's difference. To begin with, once you complete your course and you prove your mettle as a reliable trainer, getting a paid job soon wouldn't be a challenge. This means you have paid well for the course and now it's paying you back, by getting you the right employment too.
Why a driving school?
When you check with at least four to five driving schools around where you live or work, you would notice that only qualified and approved instructors are behind the wheel, training aspiring driving trainers.
Driving lessons are tough, and tougher are the exams to pass. With complete guidance and training from experts around, chances on making it through the toughest driving exams are high. Apart from that, with the support that comes in from experienced and qualified mentors, the knowledge received would be up to date and the course doled out would be a tried and tested one.
The training materials given would be those that follow the latest norms in driver training instructions. And should you face difficulty in understanding any aspect of the training, there would always be support groups to help you overcome that as well.
Some driver training schools around also absorb their graduates, once the trainees have proved their mettle behind the wheels. This means direct employment for the deserving, and a good way to begin your career as a driving instructor.
How to select the right school?
One needs to check the driving schools credibility, goodwill in the market, conduct background checks talking to clients who have studied from the school in the past and weight the advantages and disadvantages of learning from a particular driving school.
Just because a certain school claims to offer cheap courses, one shouldn't jump the gun and enroll. Take time and speak with at least three to four schools around, understand their schedules, curriculum and weigh the pros and cons accordingly. Check if the school would give you a free trial lesson, one on one or not.
The fees too should be easy on your pocket, and apart from that, the location of the driving instructor training school too should be easily accessible.


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Photo courtesy Special Collections, University of Memphis Libraries
I've written before about the remarkable life of William R. Moore, the dry goods merchant who used his wealth to open the technical school that still bears his name.
William and his wife, Charlotte, occupied a fine home close to downtown, at 109 Union Avenue. William died in 1909 and is buried beneath a stunning monument in Forest Hill Cemetery. Shortly after his death, his grand home was torn down. The only photo I've seen of the home is the one shown here, and I guess you'll just have to use your imagination about how grand it actually was, since, as you can see, the photo shows the home in its final stages of demolition.
I just wanted to share the image with you. Just one of hundreds, if not thousands, of wonderful photos archived in the Special Collections Department at the University of Memphis Libraries.


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GERMAN TECH SUPPORT AGENTS (Barcelona)
About us
Sitel is a global Business Process Outsourcing (BPO) leader.
We have 5 sites based in strategic and accessible locations across Spain alone… Globally we have over 52,000 employees based in Protected content , spanning 26 countries. So as you can imagine the opportunities are endless for development, learning and ultimately promotion.
Sitel as a company is a fantastic place to work. - We know this as we have listened to our employees via different varieties of forums and employee engagement surveys.
Do you want to be part of one of the friendliest, most exciting and satisfying working environments? Then think Sitel - 'a great place to work'.
Do you want to be part of a globally recognised operation? Then think Sitel – 'a great place to work'.
We are looking for German native speakers with advance level of English to join our international team of technical support agents, based in Barcelona.
The role of the Customer Service Representatives involves providing excellent customer service, supporting consumers via email and/or phones.
Through problem identification, troubleshooting, education and resolution, these experienced agents will be required to provide innovative and exceptional customer experience.
You will be part of a team providing premium customer service via e-mail, and phone for the printing sector. Cross sales task involve (converting inbound calls into sales call): selling accesories, consumables and extended warranties. You will need to be able to respond in German and in second language (English).
Excellent fluency in spoken/written German. Native Level
- English advance level.
• Fast and accurate typing skills as well as a good knowledge of Word, Excel and Outlook.
• Be a pro-active individual who demonstrates commitment and resilience.
• Possess excellent interpersonal skills
• Ability to work under pressure, remain professional, confident and patient at all times.
• You should be a team player who leads by example and has a strong development focus.
• Ability and willingness to learn and solve problems.
• Strong customer service background and strong written communication skills
- Immediate availaibility.
We offer:
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-Time table: Full time position Monday to Friday
-Salary: 20.000/gross per year for 39h week + bonus
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If you are interested please send your CV to Protected content with reference "German CSA"


text:
Ray Ban RBzx300 Sunglasses Black/Pattern Frame AQV
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Had exactly what I wanted at a great price. Email answered promptly. Delivery was extremely speedy. Overall a very satisfactory online purchase.
Always stock the sunnies your after at the best prices ever!
above say's it all really, other than the fact i have now brought the exact same pair 3 time's after dropping one pair off a very high balcony in Spa��
Perfectly executed transaction
Good quality and timely delivery. What else is there?


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Woodland Navy SEAL missing in Hawaii
Leathers, 33, missing off West Oahu since Feb. 19
Woodland Navy SEAL missing in Hawaii
Leathers, 33, missing off West Oahu since Feb. 19
The Navy has identified the SEAL member missing off Kaena Point as 33-year-old Matthew John Leathers of Woodland, Calif.
On Monday, authorities suspended the search for Leathers. The sailor became separated from other members of his command on Feb. 19 during an open ocean swim training evolution off Oahu's Kaena Point.
More than 24,000 square miles were searched by Navy, Marine, Coast Guard, fire and lifeguard rescue crews.
Leathers enlisted in the Navy on Aug. 11, 1998.
He reported to SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team One at Pearl Harbor on Aug. 4, 2004.
Leathers was awarded the Navy/Marine Corps Commendation Medal, the Good Conduct Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal and the Sea Service Deployment Ribbon.


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143 Post Road East
Westport, CT 06880
Phone: 203-226-4094
Home | Menu | New Location | Order Online | Map & Directions
Serving Westport for Over 45 Years
We've moved to a new location. Be sure to check it out, here!
Westport Pizzeria began in 1968 when the Mioli Brothers, Joe and Mel, decided to open an authentic, local family restaurant in downtown Westport. They had been visiting Westport for some time, and it was a small town on the sea shore that reminded them of Sicily, where they are from.
Armed with their mother's recipes, they opened their doors on Saturday, October 12th—Columbus Day.
As the years have gone by there have been many changes in the pizza business, but we stick to the traditional ways of doing things. We do so because we believe that it produces the best food, food that people can understand and enjoy. We do not use any artificial colorings, dyes or chemical preservatives. Nothing goes into our food that your grandmother would not recognize from the kitchen of her childhood. We do this because connecting with people and fostering relationships within the community has always been a driving force behind our business because we live here, too.
We don't just have customers, we have friends. Some we have known for a long time and some we have yet to meet. Either way, we welcome you to enjoy everything our authentic experience has to offer.
Ordering online is available from Myfoodmood.com
Please click to view and order from our online interactive menus
Menu: https://myfoodmood.com/order_form/106/Westport-Pizzeria--Restaurant-143-Post-Road-East-Westport--CT
Catering Menu: https://myfoodmood.com/order_form/105/Westport-Pizzeria-Catering-143-Post-Road-East-Westport-CT


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Joe Lhota has defeated John Catsimatidis to become the Republican Party nominee for New York City mayor.
Lhota, the former head of the Metropolitan Transit Authority, has 52 percent of the vote with 81 percent of precincts reporting Tuesday night. Catsimatidis, a billionaire grocery store magnate, has 41 percent. George McDonald, head of a nonprofit to help the homeless, has 7 percent.
Lhota was a deputy mayor under Rudolph Giuliani and was praised for steering the MTA through Superstorm Sandy. He resigned to run for mayor and led the polls throughout the campaign.
He will face the Democratic nominee on Nov. 5.
The candidates are vying to replace Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who is leaving office after 12 years.


text: In the hands of one Frenchman, what began life as a mild-mannered Ducati 1098S Superbike, has turned into a water-cooled Hypermotard that would do the engineers in Bologna proud. Known to us only as "Krisfox", this builder was looking for more than the standard streetbike experience. Wishing to see the more powerful water-cooled 1098 motor in a motard format, he set out to make one of his own, dubbed the Hypermotard 1098S. Pictures and more after the jump.


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Matthew Norton Sherman was born on March 28th, 1966 to Joseph and Ann (Norton) Sherman. He was the youngest of six children. Matt, as he was known to his family and friends, was raised in the small community of Minster Ohio. His childhood was blessed with plenty of neighbor kids to enjoy time with and play. While growing up, he worked in the family-owned drug store that was initially started by his grandfather.
Through his high school days, Matt had grown to become friendly with everyone and ultimately was voted "Most Popular" upon graduation in 1984. Some of his popularity was due to his athleticism, enjoying football and track. He was Co-Captain of these sports his senior year. He also was busy working with the school yearbook staff as one of the photographers. When he wasn't competing in sports, he was supporting his schoolmates and friends in their endeavors. Matt was always surrounded by people. He was a great friend, someone who loved people and loved life.
Following his graduation from high school, Matt attended Miami University (OH). He became a member of the Greek community by joining Phi Kappa Tau Fraternity and held a leadership position. Matt quickly added to his circle of friends and took on new sports in hockey and cycling. On his graduation day in May 1988, with a business degree in hand, he threw his graduation cap with the peace sign taped to the top, ready to venture off to the next step in his life's journey.
After a short summer of celebration events and going-away parties, Matt departed for his Peace Corps location in Honduras in June of 1988. For three months he was stationed in Tegucigalpa, where he learned the Spanish language and culture and prepared for his eventual two year assignment. It was a tenuous time in Honduras, nearing the end of the Nicaraguan Civil War, in which the United States set up base in Honduras to assist the right-wing Contra effort against the Sandinista Government of Nicaragua.
In early August, Matt spent a week at his pending assignment in Cuyamel, an area of 2000 people off of the north coast, with no phone service and mail delivery only twice a week. Given the mountainous terrain, Matt was two hours by bus to the nearest larger city and five hours to San Pedro Sula, the industrial capital. As a "Business and Production" Peace Corp Volunteer, Matt would work with the Cocoa Cooperative. His job was to set up cocoa markets and work on exporting. He had his sights on The Hershey Company, Inc.
On September 8th, upon hearing of the death of his grandmother, Matt had been making arrangements to head back to the U.S. for the funeral services. In the evening, on the last day of training in Tegucigalpa, a tragic accident occurred. A Honduran security guard at the El Rincon Peace Corps Training Center unmistakably had taken Matt for an intruder in an area of heavy guerrilla activity. He was shot several times. Matthew Norton Sherman was the 201st Peace Corps Volunteer to die in service.
Matt's reasons for joining the Peace Corps reflected the way he was raised by his parents and the community of Minster. They were not complicated reasons, just a reflection of Matt. His intent to join a worldwide force of peaceful intervention was not surprising, as putting others before himself was a habit. Matt made the most of the time God had given him, inspiring others to do the same. He believed in his ability to make a difference in the lives of other people.
"I believe that it's important for neighbors
to help each other, no matter the distance.
If we spent more time trying to help
each other instead of ourselves,
this world might be a better place."
Matthew Norton Sherman
Peace Corps Volunteer
Honduras, 1988
Matt did, indeed, make this world a better place.
If you are a friend or family member of this volunteer and would like to contribute a picture, a story, or something different, please send an email to email@example.com.
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8 Responses to Matthew Norton Sherman
29 Years Matt! Missed but never forgotten!
Today I heard the tragic news today of a bus crash in Honduras that killed 3 U.S. volunteers. It reminded me of Matt of his great humanity and service. Many thanks to Matt and all others who have sacrificed so much to make this world a better place.
Matt was one of my third grade students. He possessed caring and great leadership even at a young age. I knew him even before that, and followed him in sports throughout high school. His death was a shock to me and everyone in our community. We lost a fine young man with so much potential that day.
Tonight, in an evening spent with Meskers and Norton's, Matt's name was spoken often. I was too young to appreciate his life, but old enough to remember. The overwhelming sadness can be overtaken by sheer pride. Matt's impact on others stands strong today, tomorrow, and for the future. A tremdous role model- that never dies.
May the good lord be with you
Down every road you roam
And may sunshine and happiness
Surround you when you're far from home
And may you grow to be proud
Dignified and true
And do unto others
As you'd have done to you
Be courageous and be brave
And in my heart you'll always stay
Forever young, forever young
Forever young, forever young
Rest in peace, Matt
Matthew, still sadly missed by our, Norton, families. Watch over us Matt!
Matt was my youngest cousin. We are all so proud of him and his dedication to serving others. We love him and miss him to this day.
I am a fellow classmate of Matt's and I must say that I am so proud and honored to have called him not only my classmate, but my friend….He was everthing nice with sugar and spice; as my grandmother would say. He always treated everyone the same no matter where they came from…
I did not know Matthew Sherman well; however, I would see him in his father's drug store (I rented an apartment from his father next to the store in 1979). Matthew was always pleasant and happy. I know he has been missed in the Minster community. My daughter, Krystal, a 2006 graduate of Minster High School left today for Uganda, Africa, to be a Peace Corp. volunteer. My hope is that she will be safe (maybe Matthew and other PVC who left this world too soon will watch over her and other PVC now serving). When I expressed my concern for her safety, Krystal told me that she will probably be safer in Africa than she was when she was getting her bachelor's degree at OSU and her master's at Tulane in New Orleans. Let's hope so.


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SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA -- This is a long and winding tale of a purchase and delivery done awry. Please bear with me and read through the entire series of events. I pray that this does not happen to anyone else. I recently purchased a Tempur-Pedic Mattress and Foundation from one of Brookstone's retail stores. When making the purchase, I stressed to both the store manager and the salesman that the time frame of the delivery was extremely important due to fact that the my family was relocating from a rental home to a condo at the end of the month and we did not have a mattress in the new condo.
I made the purchase on Monday, March 22, 2010. I was assured by the manager that the delivery would occur between 5 to 7 business days. I was agreeable to the time frame because the seventh business day (figuring the day I placed the order would not count) would be on March 31, the final day my family would be permitted to remain in our rental home prior to the move. I paid the approximately $1800 and placed the order. The store manager mentioned to me that he would follow-up on the progress of the order with the delivery company because sometimes that helps expedite the delivery process.
I placed a call to the store manager four days later, Friday, March 26, 2010, to ask about the status of the order. He checked on the order and then told he would need to call me back. Never a good sign. I received a call from the salesman, informing me that there had been a mix-up with the order and they had accidentally shipped only the foundation without the mattress. I was told the best thing to do at this point would be to cancel the original order and process and entirely new order. This was Friday afternoon and the order would not officially be processed until Monday, March 29, 2010.
Obviously, I was not going to get the mattress in time for my move. I was very frustrated and annoyed. The salesman was very apologetic and offered me a gift card for $200. I accepted the gift card, but knew in the back of my mind, that if necessary a hotel is going to end up costing me a lot more than that. As I previously mentioned, my family did not have any alternate mattress to sleep on in the new condo. The mattress we were using in the rental home belonged to the landlord. At this point, after March 31, I was left with no choice but to place my wife and four year old son in a hotel until the new mattress arrived.
The next day, I received a phone call from a delivery company wanting to schedule a delivery date for the mattress. We scheduled the date of Tuesday, April 6, 2010. The catch was, they did not actually have the mattress at that point and they could not guarantee they would definitely be able to make the scheduled date. To say the least, I was not filled with confidence.
On Friday, April 2, I called the store manager to once again check the status of the bed. Once again they needed to call me back. Never good. I received a call from the salesman stating that according to the delivery company, the mattress was delivered on March 26 and signed for by some named **. My name is not **, nor do I know anyone named **. Plus, my new order was not even reprocessed until after that date. The delivery was an impossibility.
I then decided to make a return trip to the retail store to speak directly to the store manager to find out what was going on. My frustration was mounting. I was incurring costs associated with the hotel, I was in the process of moving and I was sleeping on the couch in the condo while my wife and son were in a hotel.
By the time I retrieved my order number, the customer service phone number as well as the phone number for the delivery company, it was too late in the day to place any calls. On Monday, April 5, I started to call all of the numbers. The delivery company number was a dead end. No one ever picked up the phone, always to voicemail.
When I contacted customer service, I was told they were not authorized to call the delivery company, they could only provide me with a Way Bill number. It was turning into a vicious circle of phone calls and dead ends, still with no concrete answers. At this point, I was unsure when and if I would be receiving the mattress. I had the tentative date of April 6, but no one at Brookstone could confirm the delivery.
The next day, Tuesday, April 6, I began my round of calls to the delivery company and customer service. It turns out the retail store provided me with the wrong delivery company and phone number. After countless calls to the delivery company, since Brookstone was not "authorized" to make the calls on my behalf, I was finally able to speak with someone who confirmed the delivery and the mattress and foundation were in fact delivered.
After everything that happened, I was left angry at the amount of effort I needed to put forth in order to get the mattress. It should not have been that way and that was the sentiment of every customers service person as well as the store manager and salesman. A kind customer service representative offered to escalate the complaint to someone who would try to compensate me for the issues that took place. The fact of the matter was, as a direct result of the delivery error, my family was now out-of-pocket just over $1100 for the required hotel stay.
After the complaint was escalated, I received a phone call from **, the assistant to the Vice President at Brookstone. She wanted to know what had happened and assured me she would look into the matter. Over the next week and a half, I exchanged emails with ** providing details when required. I let her know I was only looking for compensation for the hotel stay. I would accept half in store credit and a check for the other half. I provided both a credit card statement and a copy of the receipt from the hotel.
After about ten days, I received a formal email from ** that "Upon further review we are not able to offer any other compensation for the time frame of the bed delivery nor are we able to reimburse for any other expenses while waiting for the delivery of your bed." She mentioned that the bed was delivered only for business after originally promised. Basically she was saying, what is the big deal, take the $200 gift card and go away. She completely ignored the fact that I had to make countless phone calls and received either incomplete or inaccurate information from the Brookstone employees.
It is my opinion that you just do not treat customers this way. Customers should be able to make a purchase and then enjoy the purchase. They should not have to put forth any effort once the payment has been made. I feel I should at least be compensated for the money my family needed to spend as a direct result of the delivery error. I will no longer shop at Brookstone. This latest purchase was not my first, but it will definitely be my last.
Buyer beware. I will be telling anyone who will listen to not shop at Brookstone. They do not respect or value their customers. I promise, as a result of this incident, it is going to cost Brookstone a lot more in lost sales than if they would have simply done the right thing and reimbursed me for the cost of the hotel.
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA -- I bought a "Smart Set" clock from them. The advert said that you would never need to adjust it for daylight savings time! Wow! Great idea! I bought it! Then the gummit changed the law re when DST goes in and out of effect, and the clock, instead of needing to be adjusted never, now needs to be adjusted not TWO, but FOUR TIMES PER YEAR: Once when it automatically changes at the wrong time, then again when it needs to change but doesn't, then again at the next DST date. So FOUR TIMES PER YEAR instead of twice, the exact opposite of what the product promised!
I tried to return it and they said, "No, it's been out of warranty for over a year." I said, "But this is not a warranty issue, it's an issue of a faulty design and the product is obsolete after just 2 years!" They said they "couldn't do anything about it". We all know that "can't" means "won't" and this is the disease of most modern companies. They are short sighted. Rather than say "Yeah, you know, you have a point. I'll give you $15 towards a new clock." Then I'd go in there, no doubt find something else to buy as well and instead of LOSING A CUSTOMER AS THEY HAVE DONE, they would be gaining a loyal customer for life!
But when a company does not stand behind its FAULTY and now WORTHLESS product, they are basically saying, "We don't care." And it is clear Brookstone no longer cares about selling good quality products, nor about keeping its customers. Guess what, Brookstone? *YOU* LOSE!
I'm writing this all over the net, and am telling all my friends about how you don't stand behind your products. You must be Republicans! SHORT SIGHTEDNESS is the disease of our modern corporate world. I remember when at Brookstone, "the customer was always right" and they'd go out of their way to a) sell QUALITY products; and b) KEEP THEIR CUSTOMERS COMING BACK by promising to back up their products with liberal and sensible return policies.
Too bad. Another corporation gone the way of so many others: short sighted thinking, forgetting that return customers are their life blood. See ya later, Brookstone. Gee, I hope you don't go out of business!
MEXICO, MISSISSIPPI -- I purchased a Vector Air Pro Air Inflator from Brookstone. The item was received and appears to work fine. Enclosed was a 2-year Vector warranty card which I completed and mailed in to the provided address. That's when the fun began. The card was returned indicating the address was not active and no forwarding address was available. When I tried to get a 411 operator to give me the telephone number for the company I discovered it was disconnected.
I called the Brookstone customer "service", assuming since they sold the product to me they would help in obtaining a warranty. I was informed that Vector was out of business (for the past six months) and warranty matters were now handled by Black and Decker. The Brookstone customer "service" operator had called Black and Decker and then gave me the number. She indicated she did not have the time to stay on the line and punch in all of the numbers and then wait for a response. That was my job.
After a long wait on the Black and Decker line I was informed by a customer service person that they had sold this company (Vector) to a company called EACCUS six months ago and I had to contact them directly. When I asked both the Brookstone and Black and Decker operators why they were still shipping products with warranty cards that were six months out of date I received no response and was told that was my problem to deal with. Now get ready for the kicker. When I called EACCUS I could not get through to an agent but the recording indicated if I was calling about air inflator warranties I should contact, guess who: Black and Decker.
So Brookstone won't follow up on the warranty for a product they sold to me from a company they knew no longer existed. I expected they would at least obtain the proper warranty address. Black and Decker tells me to get my warranty information from EACCUS. And now EACCUS sends me back to Black and Decker. Shame on you Brookstone. You sold it to me with an outdated warranty card from a company no longer in business and put in absolutely no effort to resolve this when the problem was raised. I put this information into the communication box you provide on your Website and have had no response. So much for customer service.
SIMI VALLEY, CALIFORNIA -- On Oct 3, 2010, I purchased 2 helicopters for $50 from the San Diego, CA store, plus $3.99 for each extended warranty replacement plan. The San Diego store was very friendly and helpful and told me that after 30 days of the initial standard warranty, I can the exchange a damaged/defective helicopter anytime, as often as needed, for one year.
The helicopters were a lot of fun to play with, but after only 2 weeks, they weren't getting much lift. We returned them to our local store in Simi Valley, CA. The sales clerk at the time hassled me and questioned how these helicopters could already be damaged so quickly. There were no visible signs on them of abuse or damage. Regardless, we asked her to exchange them for new ones.
Those new helicopters, after approx. 5 hours of intermittent play, eventually had the same problems. Frustrated, I returned to the Simi Valley store to ask for a complete refund because I didn't want to have to keep returning every 2 weeks. The bottom line is that the products are poor quality.
Here's what I got from the store: Even though I was within the 30-day standard warranty and return policy, they will NOT refund my money but will do an exchange. Here's the kicker: the Store's policy is that ADDITIONALLY I will be charged $5 per helicopter every time I exchange them throughout the one-year Replacement Plan! (That might be okay if I only had to exchange them once, maybe twice in one year -- but every 2 weeks at this rate! Ridiculous.)
Despite my repeated pleas to refund my money - because I don't want the helicopters and the hassles anymore, incl. warranty, replacement or otherwise - the store REFUSED. I called the original San Diego store to let them know what happened and they were very supportive and said they would call the Simi Valley Store to try to convince them to refund my money.
As of now, the store manager of either location is supposed to call me to let me know the resolution. Answer me this, if you buy something like an MP3 player from, say, Target, and within 30 days, the player goes out twice and you decide you don't want to bother with it anymore -- should you be able to get your money back??
MERRIMACK, NEW HAMPSHIRE -- I walked into the Brookstone store in Strongsville, Ohio today to return a Christmas gift. I was armed with my receipt which clearly states on the back that returns can be made for a full refund within 30 days. When I approached the counter a very rude and disinterested store manager told me that she could only exchange it for an item in the store. I told her that was not what the receipt indicated and she said that was company policy. I was appalled at such a restrictive policy. Every store is offering gift receipts now to assist with return of merchandise.
This is unbelievable that they will not honor a legitimate receipt issued by them. I will be contacting the corporate office on Monday to file a complaint.
LAS VEGAS, NEVADA -- Bought two three-packs of comfort socks at the store at the Galleria in Las Vegas. When we washed them the first time, they bled all over our laundry. Took them back to the store and were told they would not accept them back because they were personal care items and we did not have the original packages. Compare our treatment, which bordered on rude, with Bed, Bath and Beyond which accepts anything back any time without packaging and, as long as they have one on their shelves, without a receipt. We will never shop at Brookstone again. Most of their stock is personal care so they basically have a no return policy.
Our recent experience in Brookstone has been really sad. We have to return the our son's Christmas gift -- an Ipad controlled Rover, since he got another similar one. First we can only get store credit, not full refund. With the credit, we first bought TimeSmart Clock and two ZAPI Sanitizers. TimeSmart clock was initially working fine, but is dead two weeks later after it fell over the night stand.
We cannot imagine that such a fall over on a soft carpet from a night stand will totally damage the clock. For ZAPI sanitizers, we can never reliably get the ultraviolet and button light on and we have to push the button randomly multiple times to get it on. Even when ultraviolet light is on, the button light may or may not be on. When trying to return the product, the store sales said that it is a personal item and we cannot return them!
Finally we get iConvert photo scanner with the leftover credit, we only find the same poor quality: the scanner sensor for feeding paper is tricky and unreliable; a normal photo always gets stuck during the scan; my XP windows machine cannot reliably recognize the scanner through USB cable. After this series of poor quality experience on Brookstone electronics, we will definitely stay away from Brookstone and inform all our friends to do the same!
TAMPA, FLORIDA -- This was poorly manufactured. One of the motors does not work right out of the box. Inspection of the circuit board for the motor revealed really bad assembly, missing parts versus other motors. This was a Christmas gift for the kids and great disappointment for us on Christmas day. The next day Brookstone refused to replace or refund stating their policy requires the manufacturer handle this. I had asked about the return policy and it was not explained in the manner they are now saying.
So, Parrot wants me to return the entire unit rather than send a motor for replacement. This further delays the gift for the kids. I am disappointed in both Parrot and Brookstone, they are not taking care of the customer very well actually not at all.
On 12/3 ordered an 80 piece Big Art Set to be sent to my grandson who lives in another city (couple hundred miles away). On 12/20 he, or rather his Mom, received two 41 piece art sets instead of the one 80 piece set ordered. Do not like the meager assortment of items in the 41 piece set. However, it's now too late now to send my grandson another Xmas gift. Can't ask my daughter-in-law to take time out of her busy holiday schedule to get him a replacement gift, so she'll be giving him a 41 piece set as his present from Grandpa and Nana.
Brookstone has no 80 piece sets available. The current online asking price elsewhere for the 80 piece set is $49.99 and the 41 piece set is $11.99. I can't return the items to Brookstone since I've never had possession of them. Only concession Brookstone will make its refund of shipping charges. Do not feel Brookstone should be making a profit by sending out items that were not ordered nor wanted.
OAK ISLAND, NORTH CAROLINA -- Never purchase a replacement Brookstone replacement plan. Never purchase a Vincci Hands Free Citrus Juicer. In my case, the "Replacement Plan - 1 yr" only kicks in AFTER the mfg limited warranty. I called Brookstone and they would not stand behind selling me this product. It was dead on arrival and customer service told me I had to contact the manufacturer because Brookstone would not step in until the mfg warranty expires because it was a "drop ship" item. My transaction was with Brookstone. In my opinion it is their responsibility to handle issues with this product.
To top it all off they are not authorized to release the mfg contact info!! I had to find it myself and the mfg won't call me back. All voice prompt options lead me to the same mailbox for "Andrew". It's not worth the hassle with Brookstone to purchase anything from their store. Their customer service policy is ridiculous. The poor people that answer the phone have to defend a company that does not care about customer satisfaction.
I will never purchase ANY product from Brookstone again. I have been a loyal customer over the years but they must stick to their absurd "policy" even though I purchased their "replacement" plan. Brookstone is worthless. Buyer Beware. I've started a chargeback claim with AMEX. At least they are on my side.