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Wolf Torture and Execution Continues in the Northern Rockies
Montana Anti-Trapping Group Gets Death Threat for Releasing Photos
On March 16, a Friday, a US Forest Service employee from Grangeville, Idaho, laid out his wolf traps. The following Monday, using the name "Pinching," he posted his story and pictures on www.Trapperman.com . "I got a call on Sunday morning from a FS [Forest Service] cop that I know. You got one up here as there was a crowd forming. Several guys had stopped and taken a shot at him already," wrote Pinching. The big, black male wolf stood in the trap, some 300-350 yards from the road, wounded—the shots left him surrounded by blood-stained snow. Pinching concluded his first post, "Male that went right at 100 pounds. No rub spots on the hide, and he will make me a good wall hanger."
All photographs were taken from Trapperman.com website are being reproduced here under Fair Use
The Trapperman website went wild with comments. "That's a dandy!! Keep at it," wrote Watarrat. Otterman asked, "All the gray on that muzzle make a guy wonder how old he is or if it is just part of his black coloring." Pinching's picture of the wolf's paw caught in the trap got special attention. "Is that the MB750 stamped 'wolf' on the pan?" asked one man. "Looks to be a perfect pad catch. Congratulations! Pinching confirmed the trap model and commented, "Oh an [sic] by the way, a wolf is a heck of a lot of work to put on a stretcher! Man those things hold on to their hide like no other!"
By late March some 117 Idaho wolves had been killed in traps and snares, and another 251 shot. Montana saw 166 killed, for a total of 534 wolves out of an estimated 1150 in the two states. Although Montana's season ended in February, Idaho is not quite done. Both states have announced plans for increased hunting in the 2012-2013, and discussions are underway among hunting groups and state officials to allow private donations to establish wolf bounties.
As recently as the spring of 2011, gray wolves in the Northern Rockies received protection from he Endangered Species Act. But in April, 2011 Congress passed a rider on a federal appropriations bill removing them. Montana Democratic Senator Jon Tester, facing a 2012 challenge from Republican Congressman Danny Rehberg, wanted to show Democrats hated wolves just as much as Republicans. Conservation groups filed suit in Montana's federal district court, claiming the delisting represented an unconstitutional infringement by Congress on the judicial branch while it deliberated an ongoing lawsuit over federal wolf protection.
Losing in district court, the Alliance for the Wild Rockies, Friends of the Clearwater, WildEarth Guardians, the Center for Biological Diversity, and Cascadia Wildlands appealed the decision to the Ninth Circuit. On March 14, the appeals court rejected their arguments, upholding the Congressional wolf delisting as a lawful amendment. This decision might well mark the endpoint for the conservation movement's decades-long fundamental strategy of litigating in federal courts to promote wolf recovery in the Northern Rocky Mountains.
Thus wolves, demonized by the far-right in the Rockies as disease-ridden monsters and icons of the federal government (see my Summer 2011 Journal story, "Cry Wolf"), now face a brutal campaign to radically reduce their numbers so far that extermination can not be ruled out. Idaho's Governor Butch Otter declared in a March 25 news conference that his state faced a "disaster emergency" from wolves. "We don't want them here."
Skirmishing on the web escalates. Footloose Montana, an anti-trapping group, posted the trapped wolf's pictures on its website, drawing over a 1,000 comments within days. Word spread. Nabeki, founder of Howling for Justice, opined that "This wolf will be the face of the cruelty and ugliness that is the Idaho hunt…Our forests are hiding acts of unspeakable horrors that are being perpetuated on innocent animals." Protesters called Idaho and Montana tourist bureaus, demanding the hunts end. By Monday, March 26, Trapperman learned that its photos now circulated offsite. The group's administrator demanded that Footloose Montana remove the photographs.
Footloose staff and board members also received an anonymous death threat in their email: "I would like to donate [sic] a gun to your childs [sic] head to make sure you can watch it die slowly so I can have my picture taken with it's [sic] bleeding dying screaming for mercy body. YOU WILL BE THE TARGET NEXT BITCHES!" FBI agents and Missoula, Montana police received copies of the threat.
Wolf advocates hope that these pictures will go viral, shaming a nation into facing the torture people inflict on animals and the moral and political failures that promote and legitimize it.
Read James William Gibson's writings at jameswilliamgibson.com
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click on the link to this piece of craps page and go on gallery he kills wolves, beavers, coyotes
foxes and more it makes me sick.
By Georgia on Thu, June 14, 2018 at 1:39 am
this is disgusting go to hell
By yanny on Thu, June 14, 2018 at 1:32 am
Well said. It is just sickening that these ignorant individuals can kill these beautiful animals. Says a lot about the stupid Yanks who can destroy the planet and allow everybody else to pick up the tab.
Wake up up America. We have one beautiful planet that we need to look after and not destroy in one life time.
By Greg Moeliker on Fri, August 26, 2016 at 9:34 pm
YOU ALL ARE IDIOTS do u not care that this is a living being? Look at that fat ass's smile. REALLY? YOU ARE HAPPY BECAUSE YOU TORTURED AN ANIMAL? GET A LIFE RETARD. I know its because of population control, but wtf just kill it then. don't freaking torture it then take FREAKING PICTURES OF IT!! YOU DIDN'T ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING BOZO.
By elsie on Wed, March 09, 2016 at 9:02 am
For all of you that think that wolves are such innocent animals, watch this short video.
If you enjoyed watching this you are as evil as wolves are.
I took a backpacking trip last fall to the Missoula Montana area because my son wanted to hike and see deer and hear elk bugle like I had done in New Mexico some 16 years earlier. We were told by the locals that the wolves were decimating the elk and deer and that we may not see or hear them like we were hoping to. They were correct!
After this trip to Montana, the only good wolf is a dead one!
Why should one species (wolves) be allowed to ruin the opportunity for people like me who want to enjoy all the rest of nature.
Wolves are just killing machines that do kill for sport when ever the opportunity presents is's self, like when an elk or deer are giving birth.
After watching the above linked video and others, like the one of the wolves killing a baby moose while the mother moose tries her best to protect the poor little calf. What was just as terrible, was how the animal lovers that posted this video seamed to enjoy the show. I did not!!
I agree with the governor of Idaho, I don't want them anywhere in the wild.
By Geo Rain on Sat, February 27, 2016 at 6:34 pm
Pray to god I never see you bastards in real life. Trust me, you wont like it.
By Lobo on Fri, February 26, 2016 at 1:24 am
You right wing sob's should be ashamed of yourself,I saw the Gov comments that he did not fwant the wolves there, well what if someone were to say they did not want you there because they considered you a threat to mankind for being ignorant,and set a trap for you then tortured you before shooting you between your idiot eyes. I wonder how you would like that,I am guessing not at all, so I suggest you stay out of their way,don't hunt them,don't bother them and they won't bother you,you sad excuses for human being.
By barbara lingo on Wed, February 03, 2016 at 7:51 pm
Such ground sloths, neanderthals, waste of life humans. Taking pride in another animals demise, its torture, pain, killing.
How we treat ourselves is how we treat animals around us so its no surprise.
A species of high intellect, lol, think again
By Joe Hackl on Fri, January 08, 2016 at 10:46 pm
I can't think of a more cowardly act than to trap and shoot an innocent animal for your own enjoyment. You say you do it for food reasons but we all know that is just a lie. All cowards lie and people that lie are cowards because they are afraid of the truth.
They say what goes around comes around and I believe that to be true. You don't have to worry about that, God will make that decision for you.
By Brant Gilmer on Tue, July 21, 2015 at 5:03 am
To Larry of Idaho, 8/2014: I know, there is no reason this should become a battlefront in any "culture war," and it is true that some commenters in the past two years have said tough and even rude things.
But you must understand, this is a life-and-death issue for those of us who love wildlife, and we see absolutely no respect for that on the part of many people in Idaho, esp. in its government.
You yourself wrote offensively, without realizing it, no doubt, when you used the expression "to harvest elk," as though elk were as sentient as potatoes or blueberries.
Also offensive is your assertion, "Wolves kill elk, lots of elk," which in this context would seem to be an argument in favor of reducing the numbers of wolves (by killing them, of course, either shooting them or trapping them). Of course wolves kill elk, but human hunters kill far more of them. So don't blame any decline in the elk population—which also is simply alleged, not scientifically proved—on wolves, when the predators you should be wanting to get rid of are human beings.
Your desire that we live in peace is commendable. But you must show first your sincere desire to live in peace with your neighbors the wolves, leaving them alone, doing what you can to help them prosper after decades of persecution and annihilation, before you can truly be believed to want peace.
By Mark Caponigro on Tue, August 19, 2014 at 1:54 pm
It breaks my heart to hear people say hurtfull things about idaho and its way of life. none of you know how hard it is for some familys if they don't harvest an elk. wolfs kill elk lots of elk. there needs to be a balance. please have an honest educated outlook before being so dang rude spend time with us and our culture before saying hurtfull words lets have love
and understanding not hate
By Larry on Wed, August 13, 2014 at 4:39 pm
Our extended families have vacationed several summers over the years at Red Horse Mountain Dude Ranch. NEVER again. I am disgusted by the blood lust and the SADISM exhibited by the people of Montana AND of Idaho as represented by these actions and words and attitudes. We need a Facebook Page reproducing this information and PICTURES advising TOURISTS like my family, who love the outdoors and Nature and wilderness, to BOYCOTT these two States that obviously REVERE AND REWARD SADISTS. Our Lord, when they go to meet their Maker - and MY prayer is that that is sooner rather than later with Ms. Karma finding ways to puke on these men's lives every day forward - will no doubt turn away ALL practicing SADISTS, including those that practice their vileness on God's Creatures, helpless in their grasp. Of WHAT place in Heaven would such revolting people be deserving?
By Nanci on Sat, November 02, 2013 at 1:05 pm
To Robin of the West: I understand exactly what you're saying, but would caution you against using the word "psychotic" to describe the wolf-foes in our Western American midst.
In fact, the situation is much worse. Violent hostility toward wolves is not a psychosis. It is normal male behavior, in a certain part of our civil population.
Small boys are taught very early on that in order to be approved, they must show themselves to be tough, potentially violent, potentially deadly; they must learn to expect strangers to be enemies needing to be beaten down; they must begin to believe all the stories about the "other," such as wolves, being a danger, requiring a lethal reaction; they must be unsatisfied with themselves, if they are not involved with killing innocent fellow creatures.
And larger boys are taught that they will not be desirable as sexual partners, if they are not perceived to be dangerous, looking for a fight, deadly.
This is not psychosis. This is normal American masculinity, in many parts of our country. God defend those poor wolves!
By Mark Stephen on Fri, November 01, 2013 at 1:39 pm
People who torture and kill for pleasure do so for 1)bloodlust 2)acceptance by peers 3)to achieve dominance.
They are clearly psychotic and should be removed from civilized society and certainly not in positions of authority.
How long is it going to take you to figure that out ?
By Robin Of The West on Fri, November 01, 2013 at 8:01 am
How anyone can defend the actions of these sociopathic serial wolf killers, who get an adrenalin rush from torturing and killing wild animals is completely sick! How can this be happening during our time with FaceBook, Twitter and social media? These people and those in this report that used a trapped wolf as target practice are nothing but deranged serial killers that would kill humans if they were given a license. Thousands of deranged killers have been allowed to roam the wilderness, trying out their new guns on wild animals, all at the blessing of certain Legislators, who turned their back on America's wildlife. Without appropriate laws, these backwoods killers will continue their destruction until the last one is taken for history books.
The killing of a social animal like the wolf is devastating. The social animal is entirely different then the herd animal. When one wolf is killed, the entire dynamics of the pack are altered causing them to disperse and leave pups and older wolves to die. In essence, the entire pack is decimated. The herd animal on the other hand is only missed by its calf,if one is left behind. The damage done to this predator is long lasting and its affects ripple through the ecosystem. Get the facts on the Wolf instead of the myths and lies that the ignorant find easy to believe.
Since there will always be the ignorant, inbred, backwoods sociopathic wildlife killers, we must find Legislators that will implement laws that will stop this unchecked massacre on our wolves and wildlife and put these wildlife criminals behind bars in prison. This article should make every person that enjoys a walk in the woods surrounded by nature and "living" wildlife angry! Write your Legislators and make your voice heard in an effective manner. We must stop this nightmare. Yes, I will write my Legislators and I will make sure to spread the word and make this Pinching Coward afraid to walk in the city.
By Debra G on Fri, October 18, 2013 at 8:07 pm
These man are nothing less than brutal **** murderers who need to get locked up for life or get tortured themselves. they make me mad. get a life. get a wife. go get some mistress punish you.
By WOLF on Tue, September 17, 2013 at 3:42 am
You are a very sick man,Your not right in the head man and need to be committed and get help.
By Lesley Branks on Mon, February 11, 2013 at 12:02 pm
Happy New Year to you too Lesley. Hope today finds you of good health and cheer.
Perhaps this year you will come outside and see a bit of the out of doors in person. The USA wildlands have much to offer visitors. It would be good for you to add some OJT to your resume so you might encounter a bit of reality instead of the fantasy world you seem to base your opinios on.
Your perceptions of the wildlife , predators , hunters,and the realitiies of nature seem without basis in fact but rather in the film Bambi as a wildlife management model.
Fortunatily for the wolves and other wildlife in their ecosystems-Great Lakes and Rocky Mountain- fact based magagement practices ie bag limits , seasons , hunting and trapping,continue to ensure their healthy and sustainable population levels now and into the future.
Lisa , I can't explain it any better ,perhaps if you would start at the beginning of this blog you would better comprehend how hunters love the animals we hunt. Perhaps visiting the websites of hunter based conservation groups like RMEF, NWTF, DU, Pheasants Forever, Mule Deer Foundation, Ruffed Grouse Foundation, Wild Sheep Federation, North Ameriacn Pronghorn Foundation and Whitetails Unlimited to name a few, would help you comprehend the connection, love and respect between hunters and their game. Investigate . You will learn that the best friends of wildlife and wild places are hunters, trappers, and anglers. Be well
You would also see that I was critical of the methods Bransford employed in the taking of this wolf.
By bob on Sun, February 10, 2013 at 6:50 am
Thanks to ESC for an interesting message. No doubt wildlife biologists are indeed very careful in determining their population estimates. But does ESC's figure, slightly higher than one in the article, mean that wolves in the Northern Rockies do not need protection? No, because wolves are still not as widely accepted, as valued members of their ecosystems, as they need to be for this latest chapter in their sad story to have a happy ending. They are still treated as competitors and threats, and as the pampered favorites of non-local environmentalists who are perceived to be willfully ignorant of local concerns, by too many of their dangerous human neighbors.
So as an environmental issue, wolves are still very much in danger from human foes, and in spite of their "resilience," and perhaps a slightly higher population estimate, they are certainly not secure and out of danger.
As an animal-protection issue, of course, which involves considerations rather different than those of environmental ethics, the extermination of wolves by hunting and trapping is simply unacceptable.
By Mark Stephen on Fri, February 01, 2013 at 6:22 pm
The official end of year count for Idaho was a minimum of 746 wolves. Biologists are still working on the 2012 count (i't's due to the USFWS at the end of March), so we don't yet know the number. Other numbers (500 in this article - quoted by Suzanne Stone) are not based on any sort of science or protocol. It's pretty easy to throw around numbers to get a count (subtracting the harvest from last years' count), but things don't work that way. Wolves are very resilient, litter size and reproductive rates are very variable, and there are all sorts of unknown factors at play in wolf populations. It is NOT easy to get a count on wolves that's based in reality, and the biologists work very hard for those numbers. You need radio collared wolves, you need to be able to get up in the air to visually count animals in each pack, and you need to have the pack together so that you get a full count. Winter is the best time to do this because packs are often travelling together (vs. summer when pups are at rendezvous sites), and the snow on the ground provides good contrast to see them.
So no matter what side of the issue you're on, please make sure numbers are based on official counts, or are proven scientifically. Anything else and you lose credibility.
By ESC on Fri, February 01, 2013 at 8:25 am
What happens to the pack when the alpha pair or just the alpha female is killed?
It is simply devastating to a family of wolves, as a wolf pack is a highly structured social unit.
More often than not, when the alpha female is murdered the pack will disperse. The very young nursing pups will not survive the death of their mother, who is the only lactating female in the pack; only the alpha pair mate.
The older adolescent pups may survive but have a whole other set of problems—-they are not fully schooled, not fully taught—-their teachers are dead or dispersed. These "teenage" wolves will run amok, never really sure of what their food source should be. They are apt to get in trouble by taking a pet—but remember this is a man-created problem—-breaking up a wolf family takes a well designed, natural pattern of life, which has endured for hundreds of thousands of years, and in the DNA of every wolf—-and causes it to shatter in misery and mayhem.
When a prey animal is killed, the herd goes on as it did the day before, and the year before that…...not so with highly social animals like wolves.
Wolves have been heard to mourn and howl through the night when a pack member is killed—this is very well documented.
And all of this misery for what? For hate-fueled ignorance, and a sadistic desire to conquer a top predator——but even that is so farcical—- compared to apex predators man is a helpless, soft, slow, and athletically challenged weakling without his arsenal of guns and arrows—- the predator hunter in actuality is a fear-filled, mean-spirited, insecure, pretty despicable sort.
The thrill is not in the kill, but in letting it live..
By Lesley Branks on Tue, January 22, 2013 at 5:37 pm
Yep rest my case lol, couldnt even be bothered reading your answer Ellen because its just the same thing over and over and over and over, same excuses!
By Lesley Branks on Mon, January 21, 2013 at 6:28 pm
LOL, yes Leslie, I will respond (and obviously you don't have much to do Either???) I assume you are a vegan? I respect your right to eat only fruits and vegetables. it is your choice. Why do vegans/vegetarians think they have the right to condemn meat eaters? I don't hunt or trap. I do fish occasionally. I do take part in eating hunted kills - deer,elk - and (obviously) enjoy beef, poultry, and fish. do I know where it comes from and what has to die so I may eat? you betcha! I have repeatedly stated that I do not agree with trapping/snaring. I truly think that all who do should learn another hobby. Killing for nothing more than fur is abhorrent to me. HOWEVER, using the whole animal is a way (in my personal belief) to be a part of the cycle of life. take a cow for instance (you can substitute most animals here) - the hide is used for clothing and/or accessories, the meat obviously is used to feed people, the hooves and some other parts are used for dog chew toys, the sinews were used for sewing purposes before the invention of thread (not sure what is done with it now), dairy animals provide milk (and eventually add to the leather trade) and many more uses. to a vegan that is horrible. to a meat eater it is (or should be) a sign of respect that we don't throw away a life for one thing and one thing only. Lesley, I've NEVER condoned any act of cruelty - whether it be trapping/snaring a wild animal (leaving a captured animal of any kind in a trap/snare leads to a cruel death no matter when it happens - strangling to death, lying with a foot in a trap so other animals can kill it, OR when the human comes by and shoots it) or when someone abuses livestock, pets, companion animals etc. I do understand that your view of what constitutes 'cruelty' and my view differ greatly. I seriously doubt there is any way those who are vegan/vegetarian would ever accept the view of meat eaters. Many AR activists believe that all animals should be freed and just 'viewed at a distance'. I wonder how many of them realize with that attitude they would be condemning hundreds (if not thousands) of species both animal and plants to extinction. Humans are a part of this world - we must learn how to utilize all resources so that all are available in the future.
Ellen (the one with 'nothing better to do')
By Ellen on Mon, January 21, 2013 at 1:33 pm
I dont know Bob and Ellen I get the feeling you guys dont really know what you are talking about. You say theres a difference between what you guys believe in and trappers that trap and torture animals but they are all the same you are still taking a life. You guys say you respect the animal you kill how ridiculous and delusional is that! You are taking that animals life away! That is not respect.
You come on here everytime someone makes a comment because you two always have to get the last word in havent you guys got anything better to do? No doubt you will be responding to this lol.
By Lesley Branks on Mon, January 21, 2013 at 12:04 pm
Tirac, I understand the frustration with humanity causing so much despondency and destruction. However, humans are here and I seriously doubt there will be a world wide suicide/genocide attempts. The way to solve problems is to put forth a possible solution. all these comments (here and other forums) that state 'humans must die off' do no good in any way, shape or fashion. Personally, I try to educate anyone who I come across about animal welfare (NOT animal rights - yes there is a difference!). this includes the belief that all animals deserve to be well cared for be they pets or food animals. purebred animals bred by responsible breeders are the preferred way of getting an animal. spay/neuter all pets! leave the breeding to professionals or those 'beginners' who are working with a mentor to better the chosen breed. yes, I believe in hunting/fishing for FOOD to be eaten by the hunter/fisher. I see no reason to trap/snare animals for their fur. nor do I agree with ANY kind of trophy hunting. All this being said - I sincerely wish that HSUS,PETA, ASPCA and their ilk would either A:disappear totally or B: get on board with giving animals better lives and stop lining their pockets with ill gotten gains. you know, those sad eyed puppies/kittens? the money bilked from the people do little/nothing to provide assistance to them. look up the salaries of the ceo's, presidents or whatever they call themselves. and, guess what - HSUS is under investigation for RICO problems and for paying a witness (at least one, not sure if there are more) to provide testimony against Feld entertainment (Feld won)
By Ellen on Mon, January 21, 2013 at 10:33 am
Ughh, this is disgusting. Just goes to show the monstrosities that humans are capable of. The sooner we doom our own fate and wipe ourselves from the face of the planet, the better. Such a shame we have to drag other species into extinction along with us though.
By Tirac on Sun, January 20, 2013 at 2:38 pm
I think it's terrible that you don't feel any pain and sorrow for killing these innocent animals! They've done nothing to you and you had better to respect them too! You think you're powerful by killing these wonderful creatures when in fact you are totally weak psychologically. It's comletely idiot the way that you believe that killing guiltless wolves is funny, exciting οr even more,right! Shame on the young people that continuouing doing this horrible hobby instead of being openminded and force their parents to stop hunting! The wolves are in the list of the endandered spieces, so you just must STOP killing them! I entirely agree with Ms Branks and Ms Ellen and I wish that more and more people will begin supporting the wolves -and the animals generally- and will be οpposed to all hunters!
By Augusta Wagner on Thu, January 17, 2013 at 8:58 am
well, LISA, I see you fallen completely for the 'animal rights' agenda! I have backed and believed in the ANIMAL WELFARE agenda for many years! breeding and showing purebred animals is NOT part of the problem. yes, there are those out there just to make a quick buck and they are the ones responsible for animals showing up abused,neglected and unwanted as they are NOT bred with health, temperament,and other breed attributes in mind.Plus, reputable breeders will take back animals they place. in all honesty, there are problems in SOME areas of the US with shelters filled to capacity but there are many areas that are IMPORTING dogs/cats for adoption. please remember that news of any kind is sensationalized to SELL THE NEWS. showing well loved, cared for, properly housed animals is not sensational even if it is the actual mainstream way our pets,companions and yes, food animals are treated.
I don't have any problem with hunting for food. I do not believe in trapping and killing for trophy reasons. predators should only be lethally controlled IF they are a clear danger and/or have proven themselves to be a danger to humans. Bob and I have had many discussions and while we do not agree on his belief of hunting - I respect his rights to hunt/trapping. I just hope that activity will be made illegal.
By Ellen on Wed, January 16, 2013 at 4:38 pm
Hear Hear Lisa
By Lesley Branks on Wed, January 16, 2013 at 1:14 pm
Just came across this posting serioulsy you all need to get a grip, Ellen are you for Hunting or not? you say you care for these Wolves then you used to breed dogs how many unwanted dogs are waiting for homes right now? how many of the dogs you used to breed end up unwaated abused neglected??? Bob i take it your hunter??? You state as quoted….
The animals I have pursued both those who I met and brought to bag and those who eluded me, have humbled me, excited me, and taught me to respect their awesome beauty, intelligence and wariness. They have enriched my life with their memories, flesh and fur.
So could you please explain to me how these animals have made you respet them after you have taught and killed them, did the hunter who trapped the wolf and left it for target practice feel enriched and overwhelmed with their beauty??? i think not.
By Lisa on Wed, January 16, 2013 at 7:34 am
we are the stupidest species in the world we say its development but its just plain massacre the people who do this schould suffer the same disterbing fate how would they like to have thiere leg snapped into a trap that gradualy tairs you apart and with people shooting at you with no chance of escape. HOW COWARDLY IS THAT??????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By chloe on Fri, January 11, 2013 at 1:07 pm
Lesley,the body was willing but the mind was weak- I am Guilty as Charged - All the best to you and yours, Happy Holidays , Bob
By bob on Mon, December 03, 2012 at 8:35 am
Haha just cant help yourselve can you Bob. lol Merry Christmas!!
By Lesley Branks on Fri, November 30, 2012 at 2:02 pm
12/25/2012,!!! Merry Christmas!!! PMA - positive mental attitude.
By bob on Fri, November 30, 2012 at 11:28 am
21st December 2012. Awakening
By Lesley Branks on Mon, November 26, 2012 at 1:18 pm
Ellen - all states are different- but some list of all dnr links exist, a simple search for - US states dnr- will take you there and as far as I know you can get hard copies from each state -it makes the dizzying amount of rules, laws, seasons, requirements, licenses, stamps and limitations a little easier to digest. Then call that states dnr for clarification of any questions .
By bob on Mon, November 19, 2012 at 4:42 am
Bob, this is directed 'mostly' at you but if any one else has information I'd appreaciate it. Is there anywhere else I can go for more information on trapping/snaring and the rules/regulations pertaining to the the legal 'take/harvest' of furbearers and/or predators? do I need to hit every state individually or is there a common ground website that i can go to? I am not interested in starting 'fires' but I do want more knowledge. sigh, I understand the privacy issue but I sure do wish I could talk to individuals without involving everyone else (especially those that resort to name calling and thinly veiled "bodily harm" threats).
Lesley, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I know you apparently think I've fallen into the 'bad people' category but I assure you - I have no desire to see animals killed JUST because a human desires to 'harvest' them for fur, a belief that "humans have the right to do what they wish", or just for the thrill of it. There must be controls put in place so that no animal (human included) can over run its habitat. If predators are NOT controlled, their prey (be it mice on up to elk, moose, etc) WILL suffer for it. I guess that statement does play into the trapper way of thinking but I don't know how to control predators without traps at this point.
just as a sort of 'aside' here. I love the wolf. I always have. I do think he has gotten a raw deal with the delisting at this time, but I also know that was an inevitable part of life. all wildlife is sacred and necessary. no indigenous population that I know of ever wiped out any species but they revered all life and gave thanks to the 'spirit' of the animals. Mankind now, in its billions, has done almost irreparable damage to this earth and the other life that is shared. mankind is greedy. but, mankind is also slowly learning how to protect ourselves from self destruction. Will we learn in time? only time will tell. meanwhile, passions and tempers will flare over how best to manage this beautiful world of ours
By Ellen on Sun, November 18, 2012 at 5:18 pm
This is disturbing and insane. Human is the worst animal on the Earth. Somebody got carried away with sending those threat email, but they definitely have a point. I am sharing this link on PETA.com webpage.
By Steve on Sat, November 17, 2012 at 8:47 pm
Aside from your insulting my character, intelligence, genetics, and activities, I don't have any reason to dislike you.
I disagree with you but I don't know you so have no personal like or dislike for you.
I do think that you assume or believe many things, unfavorable, all inclusive, negative generalities about hunters and trappers that can not be substanciated as they have no basis in fact.
To blame ethical, legal hunters, trappers and anglers for acts perpetrated by criminals and poachers is unjust and insulting.
Condemning crimainal acts is a point on which we find common ground.
There are many issues on which I disagree with you.
There are a few points on which we actually agree.
May everyones'table be filled with the fruits of their labor and surrounded by family and friends.
Best Wishes to All this Holiday Season.
By bob on Sat, November 17, 2012 at 6:51 pm
Yes Bob
The human population needs to control itself before it tries to control any other species, it is way out of control. I agree with you the more people that are born and the more greed that goes on in this world the more habitat is lost. Everything is struggling to do just one thing and that is to survive.
By Lesley Branks on Sat, November 17, 2012 at 6:18 pm
Ellen, on one point conserning trapping and snaring I whole heartedly agree with you. All capture devices, cage type, snares, legholds, bodygripping or killtraps for animal ( mouse to mammoth) should be checked daily , at least once in every 24 hour period.(The law in many states)
Anything longer than that brings thirst and hunger into the equation. My goal is and has been noon the next day. Most furbears and predtors are nocturnal so this cuts the possible time for most catches being held to 18 hours or less. I believe this should be a goal for all trappers.
I mention pets in this discussion because it shows what a problem uncontrolled population is. The worst examples are the pet hoarders who just let their pets keep feeding and breeding . Then they wind up being arrested for animal cruelity and neglect because they love them so much they just didn't have the heart to have them spayed or neutered .
Michael -well said.
Ms. Branks - agreed -Noble is the Wolf, but so is the Pronghorn Antelope (our one of a kind found only in North America specie - Hows than for Noble and Iconic) the Elk, Mule Deer, Moose, Grizzily, Black Bear , Blackfooted Ferret, Prairie Dog, Cougar , Whietailed Deer, Timber Rattler, Largemouth Bass , Rainbow Trout, Snapping Turtle, Alligator and on and on through the list of wildlife on this planet.
Many species have species has a fan club that love them above all others and this must be tempered by good judgement and management. We are stuck with the job . No other species can see the overall ecosystem and do the math .
And yes I AGREE WITH YOU> We as a species do need to practice what we preach- population control- before we breed ourselvses out of a planet.
Loss of habitat is a by far the greatest threat to all wildlife every where, excepting maybe rats.
By bob on Sat, November 17, 2012 at 6:45 am
And by the way Bob I do respect other peoples opinions what I dont respect is peoples huge egos!
You say I only like people who agree on what I say well bob I could say the same for you.
You should practice what you preach. lol
By Lesley Branks on Fri, November 16, 2012 at 7:05 pm
Yes dear people,
We could go on about this subject for years to come with everybody saying the same old comments over and over and putting their 2 pence in. Its getting pretty old and tiring.
But just one last comment the human population is getting way out of control too (nearing the 7 billion mark) should we start exterminating them too!! Us human beings have always been egotistic and have always put ourselves as the most superior race on this planet than anything else and that is not true its only human beings egos that put themselves there. One day they will find out because there is a big Universe out there.
Karma is a very powerful thing.
Wish you well
By Lesley Branks on Fri, November 16, 2012 at 4:19 pm
Noble is the wolf…....
Posted by Heidi Ulrich (cause leader)
Tell your friends about this
What is particularly frustrating for wolf advocates is that we see the wolf for the perfect animal that he is—-iconic, majestic, loyal, intelligent, and independent; all the traits human beings admire.
Yet this animal we so appreciate is continually maligned, hated, tortured, and killed by those who cannot, or will not, see the true nature of the wolf.
A top tier predator, he adds balance to nature, follow his instincts, and has every right to feed himself.
When what we know to be true about this magnificent animal is in conflict with the injustice of lies, fairy tales and political agendas that are all getting him killed—- it is like a stab in the tapestry of the universe—-like a slap in the face of decency and truth.
By Lesley Branks on Fri, November 16, 2012 at 4:06 pm
Bob, after you questioned me on how 'should' predator control be done - I'm researching!!! so far I've only read up on Idaho's furbearing and/or predator taking. to say it is confusing to a non hunter/trapper is an understatement. I DO see the need for control but I just can't justify the use of traps and/or snares. so, I guess my answer is "i don't have an answer". I will be doing more research/reading. such a frustrating topic even without emotions thrown in. it bothers me a lot that there are provisions for the take of non target animals as if to say 'oh well, you got something not on the approved list, so we will pay you for it'. how can we only 'take' the target species? unfortunately animals can't read or otherwise identify the trap/snare as 'oh that isn't meant for me'.
Michael, I agree whole heartedly with you on the topic that some people have idealized and anthropormized many species - most especially the wolf. Wolves are predators (killers!!!! oh my!), they are also very pack oriented and loyal to their packs (for the most part). to call them majestic, totally misunderstood, top tier predators is both right and wrong. They are 'all that' but so much more in the overall scheme of things. it has been mentioned that wolves were not 'wiped out'. the only reason that is true is because 'humans' saw the need and preserved the species in sanctuaries. granted, the wild populations of artic wolves and some other populations have not disappeared although they hunted yearly. wolves are gone from the UK (except in zoos/sanctaries) and on the mainland they are extremely hard to find, let alone kill. here again, the wolf has been released into its natural domain but due to the unmitigated hatred spouted by ranchers and, in some instances, hunters of prey animals, it is (in my opinion) still in danger of being wiped out in the wild. until or unless we understand the REAL science of the effects of predators on other animal populations - there will always be dissension. wolves are no more and no less 'majestic' than other predators.
some people seem to try to lump together all killing of animals whether it be 'wildlife' or 'pet life'. it can't be done that way! there are 2 entirely different sets of rules/regulations/needs involved. wildlife, by its very nature is WILD and to some extent beyond human control. Pets, on the other hand are totally dependent on humans and as such, we MUST have more education to balance out the extremes of AR 'breeder hatred' and the somewhat of an 'ideal' that the AW groups want with no euthanasia of any displaced pet.
we, as humans, do eat meat and in order to do that, animals MUST die. My wish would be that all meat animals be treated with respect throughout their life up to and including their death. It is a sad commentary on 'humans' that many do not realize that package of chicken,beef,pork etc at the super market comes from REAL animals. sigh, I wish I could find the post I read a couple of years ago where a young woman said that we don't need to kill animals because all you have to do is go the store and buy the packages. she was SERIOUS!
Bob, again, I do appreciate you pointing out some of the things that need more research. LOL, I seriously doubt I will change my stance on trapping/snaring since that just seems so overwhelmingly cruel to me. one of the 'things' that stuck in my mind with Idaho is that they say traps must be checked at least every 72 hours. if an animal gets 'caught' just after the human leaves it is a possibilty that animal will suffer for 3 days. maybe not in pain (as has been said before - the traps don't hurt - still not believing that) but they will be hungry, scared and possibly targeted by another animal as 'easy prey'. that contingency doesn't seem to be mentioned much.
Lesley, you seem to be on the AR side of animal issues. I can assure you that I (firmly on animal welfare side) care deeply for my animals. I show dogs. I used to breed a rare breed dog Circumstances didn't allow for me to continue that - nothing to do with animal control issues, or any other legal problems - I moved into an area where I couldn't have all the animals i wanted! I firmly believe the gov't needs to get out of my house and the houses of others who breed for the betterment of their chosen animals. Animal cruely of domestic animals CAN and SHOULD BE controlled by the laws already in place IF those laws were correctly enforced.
By Ellen on Fri, November 16, 2012 at 10:30 am
Hunters & trappers should be hunted & trapped.
By Wolf A on Fri, November 16, 2012 at 9:44 am
Lesley, perhaps you feel that you are a compassionate, feeling human being. I believe you are to some degree, at least in regards to animals and even to some humans who fit into your agenda. In many ways though, you are just the same as the ones you attack. Your feelings for animals are mixed with lots of emotion and passion which is not bad in itself, but in your posts here and other places many of your contributions are vile and contemptuous attacks on anyone who does not fully align themselves to your way of thinking. Apparently you feel verbal attacks alone, without persuasive reasoning, will win your war. Emotions and compassionate feelings are good qualities, but unless they are tempered with reasoning and understanding they can be blinding and lead one astray.
Based on your comments I understand that you don't see that some people here, that you obviously do not like, do in fact have good feelings for animals. Like most things, it is not black and white as you seem to believe. Many if not most radical animal rights people (which I believe you fit into) proclaim nature knows best. As someone who has spent a great deal of time in the animal's natural habitat away from most human activity I have seen just how cruel it can be. Some of the animals you vehemently try to protect from any human caused injuries and deaths ironically happen to make their living by killing, and on more occasions than you likely realize kill each other for various reasons, such as territorial and dominance disputes where the strongest wins. When animals do it then it is attributed to being "natural" and expected, when humans do it the we are sometimes said to be interfering with nature or going against it.
Do you find contempt for someone who kills to feed his family, and takes good care of his pets by feeding them well and tending to their needs? Do you find the same contempt for animals who kill to eat and manage their territory like you do for humans that dare do the same? If anyone has any illusions that humans are the only or even primary source of animal suffering and death, they are deluding themselves; nature is. Perhaps what you feel is the ideal scenario cannot exist, and is therefore unreasonable. If we as humans never killed another animal, they would still all face a death, and likely not one devoid of some form of suffering. Very few animals in the wild die of old age in their sleep, frequently they die from attack of other animals, and other causes such as diseases, accidental wounds, and starvation. Have you condemned Mother Nature for her cruelty to animals? Like it or not, humans are a part of nature, and sometimes that includes killing of animals for food and management.
I had written the above before your last post was made, and have added the following.
You have chosen to believe certain qualities are possessed by wolves, I personally think you are afflicted by some romantic "fairytales" too. When I was young I thought much the same thing from what I read. You may be in love with the "perfect" wolves, to me it is simpler now; wolves are in essence large and powerful wild dogs that spend most of their life hunting for food, eating when they get it, fighting among themselves, sleeping, and reproducing like there was no tomorrow. They have bad breath and their bodies and sh!t stinks. In other words, pretty much like many other animals, often including humans. Except a lot of other animals don't eat meat, their sh!t doesn't stink, they don't bite, and they don't have as much tendency to kill each other. Of course I might be biased since they are all over here and I watch and see their activities and the results, so the "fairytale" aspect is gone and I am trusting what I see instead of what I read and am told. I don't hate them or want to torture them, but I do want to see them managed to a reasonable population instead of letting them run out of control and am more than willing and able to help.
One last thing, even though I don't completely agree with what your last post says, you were respectful and gave reasons for the way you believe and I have more respect for you because of that.
By Michael on Thu, November 15, 2012 at 8:51 pm
What is particularly frustrating for wolf advocates is that we see the wolf for the perfect animal that he is—-iconic, majestic, loyal, intelligent, and independent; all the traits human beings admire.
Yet this animal we so appreciate is continually maligned, hated, tortured, and killed by those who cannot, or will not, see the true nature of the wolf.
A top tier predator, he adds balance to nature, follow his instincts, and has every right to feed himself.
When what we know to be true about this magnificent animal is in conflict with the injustice of lies, fairy tales and political agendas that are all getting him killed—- it is like a stab in the tapestry of the universe—-like a slap in the face of decency and truth.
By Lesley Branks on Thu, November 15, 2012 at 4:44 pm
Ellen, Given that you are opposed to trapping- How do you think we should manage
predatory mammal species populations?
They do reproduce rapidly and have few natural constraints on population growth.
The wolf was not hunted out of existance before- he is much too alert and evasive a specie for that. Even when treated as vermin, normal hunting and trapping methods did not eliminate him from the west. It was the wolfers poison that he had no defense against that wiped him out.
Such methods are illegal now and so with regulated hunting and trapping , with limited seasons and quotas, his numbers will be coordinated with his habitat. With these management policies in place to protect him (from overkill and overpopulation) the wolf is, can and will be a permanent and healthy part of his environment wherever he calls home.
By bob on Thu, November 15, 2012 at 4:10 pm
once again it has been proven that many people do not wish to open their eyes and think for themselves.No one group is all 'right' or all 'wrong'. I will be the first to admit that some good has been done by 'animal rights' groups but as a general rule - Everything I've read and discussed with others (in person, not just on forums) tells me that the ARistas want the total end of animal usage. no pets, no meat, no service animals, no companions, no show animals, no zoos, no breeding facilities (for domestic or wild animals) no hunting, no trapping/snaring and the list goes on. My word doesn't have to stand on my beliefs - these items can be found attributed to HSUS, PETA, ASPCA and many more. I do NOT want puppy/kitten mills to continue but LOCAL animal cruelty laws would be enough IF they were enforced. Animal WELFARE groups want the treatment of any animals to be the best it can be. they understand the need to educate the public on the best way to add a 'pet' to your household - not just say 'there should be no more pets'. They are aware that some of us wish to eat (dare I say it?) MEAT and resent those who would force their vegetarian/vegan lifestyle on the rest of us. AR groups show outdated, doctored, heart rending footage of animal cruelty to ply the heartstrings of the soft hearted and uneducated public to pull as much money for their STAFF (not the animals!). yes, I am aggravated beyond belief that most people believe we still are over run by unwanted animals. that IS true in some areas but in other areas shelters are IMPORTING dogs/cats to satisfy the demand. if there was a NATIONAL network to place shelter animals, those that could be adopted WOULD be! Reputable breeders (and their are many more of them than realized) do all the medical testing available, thoroughly check out potential homes, have contracts that at the least spell out what they will do FOR their animals and buyers. HSUS has practically killed off the Tennesse Walker industry based solely on issues that the TW clubs have cleared up years ago. Shelbyville TN is almost a ghost town. I'm sure Wynne (misspelling intentional) was clapping his hands in glee this year.
I could go on and on but will not since it is apparent that some people will only see/hear what they wish to.
My basic stance has not changed. I don't think trapping/snaring has a place anymore. I do agree with managed hunting of non predator species. I sadly agree that SOMETIMES lethal control methods must be used with some individual predators. I don't believe the mass extermination of wolves (again) should be allowed.
I am a proud advocate for ANIMAL WELFARE and as such, spread the word against 'ar' shenanigans with as much researched information as I can find.
By Ellen on Wed, November 14, 2012 at 11:51 am
As bad as one another, sorry guys you both are full of bullshit and just a waste of time commenting on here I think you guys do it to make yourselves better. And no Ellen us animal rights people do care and show concern for animals so do not agree with your comments.
Therefore that tells me that you do not care much for animals yourself.
Well good luck you guys with convincing and competing with each other on your conversations.
We have better things to do like signing petitions and lobbying against any kind of animal cruelty in this world like trapping, fur farms, puppy mills, kill shelters etc etc. And am sorry for being a compassionate, feeling human being. Blessings
By Lesley Branks on Tue, November 13, 2012 at 11:02 pm
We must agree to disagree on certain points, however; I have noticed and continue to see you as one of the, if not THE most civil and polite contributer to this blog. I don't remember anything in your comments that could be taken as insulting or demeaning by anyone. In this regard I can speak conclusively for myself . I don't believe any offense ever meant and none ever taken. Kudos
By bob on Tue, November 13, 2012 at 2:45 pm
I may have 'changed' on some minor issues like trophy hunting of prey species. I was totally against it until I read many stories of the necessity of management of species. One of the major aspects of this came home hard in Texas. there are ranches now that will no longer be able to manage their exotic herds through hunting. some species may now be doomed to extinction as they CAN NOT be put in their 'native' habitat since that habitat is gone or almost gone. the safest place for them was on MANAGED ranches. where I have not changed, is my stance on trapping/snaring. I still believe that is cruel, inhumane and unnecessary. I do NOT believe in the trophy hunting of predators (this also includes the trapping/snaring aspect). Fur, in my opinion, belongs on the live animal - not in a humans coat or hung up on a wall.
as far as my 'conversations' with Bob - I have never met him in person, but he has had some good posts. I do not, nor will I ever, agree with him saying that trapping/snaring is a 'good' thing. however, he posts as an educated person. has never (that I remember) called anyone names, given death threats to those with a different view than his, or any of the other totally uncalled for vitriol.
I have used this URL and others to keep track of what is happening and also for opening my mind to look at (I hope!) the real issues. I do a LOT of research on both sides of the coin.
point blank here - humans are OMNIVORES and as such eat both meat and vegetables. humans also seem to think that they are the main solutions to any problem regarding wildlife and/or land management. it is also an apparent thought of many that "I have the money, I will spend it anyway I want". canned hunts, predator hunts, arial 'hunting' is all, again my opinion, the actions of a few who still beat on their chests and say 'me big macho person' and 'I will kill just because I want a head/hide on my wall'. I am sorry if I offended you (Lesley) with my ideas. I honestly do not think I've changed much.
ps, make sure you (you in general - not specific to anyone on this or other forums) are not just parroting the 'animal rights' agendas. they are NOT for protecting animals. their bottom line is the total annhilation of any/all human interaction with animals. I (again) research and back most of the animal WELFARE ideals and for the life of me, I can not understand how otherwise 'intelligent' people think the ARistas have the right idea.
By Ellen on Tue, November 13, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Well Ellen I am truly dissapointed you certainly have changed your tune from a few months ago!
If you would like I will send you the picture of a hunter stomping to death a wolve why he has one foot on the wolves neck so he cant bite him.
I see you have fallen totally for Bobs bullshit and quite frankly I think your as bad as one another.
I will now leave these conversations between you and Bob as Iv pretty much see whats going on here and I think other people will too.
Good luck with your information!
By Lesley Branks on Tue, November 13, 2012 at 1:12 pm
Leslie, while I agree that trapping/snaring should not be legal, I seriously doubt that anyone would stomp on a trapped animal. the 'human' would be taking a mighty chance on that animal scratching and/or biting before they are killed. I've seen the pictures of dogs 'sicced' on trapped animals and that to me is absolutely unneeded and extremely cruel.
and I do think that there are many trappers out there who do their best to ensure their 'take' is humanely dispatched. if you look atit from their stance - the 'harvested' animal MUST be in good condition for the pelt to be sold at the highest amount. it can't be forgotten that the actions of a few, if caught on camera, do seem to protray the whole group (in any situation)as the proverbial 'bad apples'. I would imagine that those who truely feel they are doing the right thing (I believe Bob is one of 'them') don't go take pictures just to prove themselves. pictures now can be 'photo shopped' to show anything to further any cause.
seriously, I am NOT changing my stance on trapping/snaring but I CAN see the viewpoint of those who think it is OK. Management is extremely important in any hunting/fishing issue. without management, we would lose many species. the problem is the way that management is currently done in some instances. we need the revenue from all activities surrounding the hunters/fishers. the tags/licenses go towards management. the purchase of gear (from camping, fishing, hunting etc) go towards helping the economy. even though I detest trapping/snaring even the pelts from that go towards an economic use. there is no easy answer but without debate their can't be solutions put forth.
By Ellen on Tue, November 13, 2012 at 10:10 am
Ms.Branks, I have not seen these pictures but stomping a wolf seems a bit risky . Perhaps faked or manipulated. In any case this is not an ethical or reasonable or exceptable.
The dog incident as you discribe it is not something that any ethical hunter or trapper would do and I like you find it offensive and criminal.
To attibute this kind of behavior to all hunters and trappers is slanderous and inaccurate.
Every day millions of hunters and trappers stive to be proficient and humane in their pursuits and likewise find the horrific examples you point to, offensive.
It is like saying that all pet owners abuse mnd torture thrir pets because of the actions of a few
If non management is the answer why aren't all the dogs and cats (tame predators) that are "humanely" strapped down and executed just released so as to be able to fend for themselves and let Nature balance itself.
Why are pets spayed or neutered?
ANSWER- The population must be managed to fit the available ecosystem.
Same thing in the wild.
WE ,hunters and trappers get villified for doing the job that must be done.
Where are the pictues from the pounds euthanizing wriggling ,protesting kittens and puppies?
By bob on Tue, November 13, 2012 at 5:15 am
What you said Leslie! That is the fact of the matter. Trappers are NOT hunters, just as poachers are not hunters. Trapping is just wrong…
By Elizabeth on Mon, November 12, 2012 at 7:47 pm
Lesley, I imagaine like most people we will have to agree to disagree on some things. Hunters and fishermen are absolutely necessary to help manage wildlife. I do not now, nor have I ever agreed with the 'trophy' hunting of predator species. Yes, after researching I do understand that some lethal methods of control are required but, to me, only as a last resort. the delisting of the wolves and the subsequent slaughter perpetrated by biased, unscientific, hate/fear based killings was an atrocity to my way of thinking. Science has proven repeatedly that wolves do not, in general, go out and slaughter multiple animals. the livestock loss has also been blown way out of proportion - any research I've done on that shows wolf predation as one of the least causes of livestock loss - yet ranchers still scream "kill them before they wipe out the herds"! I've had many so called 'people who care' send me pictures of livestock and/or other prey animals partially eaten (some still alive). while graphic, THAT is NATURE! no predator goes out and asks their prey to stay still while they come and kill/eat them!
wolves are NOT gentle animals. no predator is. they do however, have their place. we might look at the coyote - the more they are hunted the more litters they produce and the more invasive they become. I honestly don't know if wolves will react the same way as they seem to have a more cohesive pack hierarchy.
By Ellen on Mon, November 12, 2012 at 5:13 pm
Thanks Ellen I respect that.
The only thing is I will never and never understand hunters and trappers especially now as there are alot of pictures coming out of wolves been tortured before they are put out of their misery by very sick hunters and trappers. Just yesterday a photo came out of a trapper stomping a wolve caught in a leg trap to death. Very very sick!!!
Other very horrible pictures were shown of hunters and trappers sicking their dogs onto one wolve also in a trap that couldnt defend itself. The dogs tore that wolve apart after about 30 minutes of torture.
So come on does that make you sick to the stomach, these evil hunters are not killing on the spot they are getting pleasure out of torturing these poor animals and getting away with it. And then they turn around and say how much respect they have for the wild animals. Sorry utter bullshit!
By Lesley Branks on Mon, November 12, 2012 at 3:02 pm
Lesley, I'm not sure where I called someone names and/or was demeaning to someone. I'm not one to intentionally do that. I don't agree with Bob in manu things but I 'think' we have had a good debate going. because of the discussions on here, I've done more reading/research than ever before. I feel I have a greater understanding of the 'whole picture'. While I will never agree that trophy hunting (predators) is a good thing. trophy hunting of food animals where the whole animal is used is, in my opinion, ok. Trapping/snaring to me will always appear cruel and inhumane. no matter who says 'getting an appendage grabbed by a trap' isn't painful, I still think it is frightening and totally uncalled for. there are many stories (both pro and con) that talk about humans and/or their pets being caught in a trap. many attest to the lose of limbs (I think it was a husky that lost a leg most recently?) wildlife management is a necessary 'evil' if you will pardon my use of the word. most if not all wildlife would suffer if hunters and fishermen and all the groups they belong to were no longer in existence. I love to fish and eat what I catch. I've never hunted (physically unable to ) but I have reaped the rewards of friends who have hunted. I will never knowingly wear the fur of an animal that was killed in the wild (or for that matter raised on farms for their fur). I will however wear leather from cows,goats,pigs as I know the whole animal was used. shearing a sheep,alpaca,llama or other wooly type is, again to me, acceptable. the animal isn't killed to get the fleece (usually). small caveat here, i've never had the chance to wear the leather from a wild killed ungulate, but again, if the whole animal is used I see no problem with that. does that make me hypocritical? I don't know the real answer to that.
again, I do apologize if I have called someone names. disagreement with another does NOT mean they are less than anyone else. I (hopefully) have used many disagreements both here and other lists, to further my knowledge and to do more research. I'm less likely now to make a 'blanket statement' because of my 'talks' with Bob and with others.
By Ellen on Mon, November 12, 2012 at 10:02 am
I dont believe the conditions exist on this continent that the Euroean settlers found when they arrived. However, man was part of the ecosystem then as well. Hunters, fishermen and trappers were an integral part of the the circle of life then as now. The Indians were hunters and etc.
Unmanaged, unregulated, commercal and subsistance use of wildlife did decimate the wildlife resources of this country and continues to do so worldwide.
Regulated sport hunting,fishing and trapping has been the savior of wildlife wherever it has been practiced.
It is conservationists- biologists, wildlife managers with the help of hunters,fishermen and trappers who have carried the majority of the load in restoring many species to healthy self sustaining levels in harmony with available habitat.
The Robertson Act- a tax on sporting goods- provides major funding that benefits all wildlife. License and permit fees add to the total and allow for the study and management methods that are insuring Americas wildlife (Including wolves) has a bright future.
Many conservation and hunting groups,SCI, B&C CLUB, P&Y CLUB, RMEF, NWTF, NRA, NAHC, DU, QDMA, WU,PF, RGF,NAFC, BASS,TU and many others work to improve and preserve HABITAT and thus provide a promising future for wildlife worldwide.
Hunters, Trappers, and Anglers - male and female alike [we wecome more Huntresses every day ] are the very best friends of all wildlife species.
No species has ever been endangered by regulated sport hunting. Being listed as a game animal helps ensure a species perpetual survival.
Habitat destruction and preservationist -no management- policies are the biggest threat to wildlifes long term well being.
By bob on Fri, November 09, 2012 at 6:03 pm
I have looked at your comments ever since this discussion started about 6 months ago! And I respect what you are saying but you say in your last comment calling names and demeaning someone is not going to get anywhere, ok I can understand that but when you first started commenting on this page with bob you were also getting quite upset with each other and on both sides alot of name calling was coming out so dont quite understand you. We are all in agreement that hunters are sick to be able to do that to a animal or any living thing. To see something suffer and die and then claim you care about it and have respect for it is not normal! Plain and simple. Yes we are suppose to be a compassionate race and alot of us are but when we see animals suffering and demonized for no reason whats so ever it is hard to feel any compassion for that individual that is commiting that act. Karma will prevail and no good or bad deed goes unpunished.
By Lesley Branks on Fri, November 09, 2012 at 11:17 am
Limited take regulations are meant to maintain population levels.
If I am wrong in my comments so are wildlife managers world wide.
Mark and MS BRanks , If I had no ammo save sentiment and insults I would refrain from commenting until I had educated myself.
You do not lessen me with your crude and demeaning remarks nor do you advance your crediblty. Get the facts. Work on your civility.
Julie -Do you think Theodore Roosevelt was an evil man who hated wildlife? He was an avid hunter . But as Preident he created much the National Park System. HMMM? Check it out . Get the facts.
By bob on Thu, November 08, 2012 at 7:01 pm
Wolves are definitely demonized, and unfairly…theres another animal that i would like to put in this category as well….the feral hog
By Steve on Thu, November 08, 2012 at 6:50 pm
I thought the purpose of discussion was to talk about differing view points and maybe learn something. First, I do not 'know' Bob nor do I agree with all he says, however, from reading his and others' posts - it has forced me to open my eyes and actually do some research. What was said about early European settlers was more than likely true. they found an abundance of wildlife in their natural habitats. Unfortunately, humans did what humans do and we eradicated much of the natural habitat thus causing an OVER abundance of wildlife that conflicted with human growth patterns. there is no going back to 'the way it was' so humans MUST manage the wildlife left with sometimes lethal methods.i will never agree that trapping/snaring is necessary (I still feel that only fuels the fur trade and I believe we should get rid of that). I don't remember where I read it but I did look up the allowable 'take' on furbearers in several states - one state listed THREE bobcats (maybe lynx?) were allowed. uhmmmm, that does nothing for the analogy that furbearers will over run the area if allowed to pursue their natural life! Wolves are paying dearly for their recent delisted status. it is a sad irony that taxpayers paid so much to reinstate them only to have them legally harvested so some people could mount their heads/hides on walls and say "see what I got!" Bison once covered the plains and we ostensibly wiped them to the brink of extinction to force the native Americans off their own lands. yes, the bison is a national icon yet ranchers are doing their best to keep bison from free roaming in fear that their cattle will get a disease (brucellosis). yet science has proven that won't happen (it is actually elk that pass it to cattle).
there will be no easy, well liked answer. I've even had to 'upgrade' my stance on some trophy hunting issues of exotic ungulates. here in Texas it was the exotic ranchers that were maintaining herds of exotics to be hunted, for a price, and thus managed. the ARistas got ahold of the legislature and exotics are no longer allowed to be hunted/managed. guess what, in a decade, these exotics will probably be extinct because there is NO natural habitat left for them in their home countries! they can't be reintroduced to their natural range and now, in our 'human' wisdom, we have condemned species to die out.
also, calling someone names and/or threatening them because he/she does not agree with you, only paints the picture of 'you' being someone who has no good things to say. debate your point definitely. call names? threaten? that does nothing productive
By Ellen on Thu, November 08, 2012 at 4:26 pm
Well done Mark.
No one could say it better than that! To the point and great statement and so true. Put that in your pipe psycho bob and smoke it!!
But still I dont know why you guys bother arguing with this moron Bob he is enjoying it and the more people that respond to his ridiculous lies the more hes going to open his big mouth.
Just a thought.
By Lesley Branks on Thu, November 08, 2012 at 2:22 pm
These hunters should receive the same treatment. Period.
By Julie on Thu, November 08, 2012 at 2:02 pm
Bob's suggestion (prejudice?) that predatory animals bear so many young that they will before long eat up their ecosystems, unless their numbers are reduced by wise, thoughtful, considerate hunters and trappers, is not to be believed. When Europeans first came to North America, they found plenty of ungulates, rodents, lagomorphs, birds and fishes—these animals had most certainly not been killed off by the predators. It was Europeans and Euro-Americans, with their guns and their crazy, self-centred, self-righteous ideas about nature and animals, who messed up American ecosystems, e.g. by locally killing off beavers, raptors and predatory mammals, and not the wolves, cougars, eagles etc.
And none has suffered more than the gray wolf. No animal has been subjected to such mad, ruthless persecution. The Bison has been nominated as our National Mammal, and bison are indeed swell critters who have been to the edge of extinction and are returning; but I firmly believe our best choice for that honor would be the Gray Wolf.
Hunters and trappers like Bob remind me of homophobic Christians, who are homophobes long before they ever became Christian (IF they ever truly became Christian!), and are delighted to discover in the Bible a very small number of minor texts of no clear meaning and no modern relevance, crazily concluding that it is God's will that LGBT people be suppressed or destroyed. Similarly, the hunters and trappers think they can justify their disgraceful addiction to killing, by claiming to be wise, thoughtful, good-hearted stewards of the balance of species. They are lying to themselves, and Bob is lying to us.
Injustice and cruelty are never part of God's will for human conduct. Or, leave God out of it: Injustice and cruelty are kinds of conduct that prevent human beings from being as good as they can be. So, please let us evolve away from all trapping. And let us put hunting and fishing behind us too, except when they are the only means we have of feeding ourselves.
By Mark Caponigro on Thu, November 08, 2012 at 12:46 pm
PSW- And how do the non hunters and trappers with the phychotic madman mentality effect the ranks and progress of wildlife from your side of the discussion??
By bob on Thu, November 08, 2012 at 6:33 am
It is not about the animals being wiyhout habitat . It is about furbearers and food or prey animals being so prolificate that they just outgrow the habitat or overwhelm the other species in the area or are so destructive that they cause so much damage as to be unexceptable or self destructive via starvation or disease.
Racoons - have 4-5 young each year. Opossim-7-12 young,coyotes 3-4, beaver 4-8 young each year,muskrats 4-6 young, fox ,red and grey- 4 pups avg. ,Skunks - 4-6 kits. These animals have few if any things to keep them from overpopulating to the point of habitat or companion species destruction. That is where we must intervine and through measured lethal management practices try to achieve a balance the benefits all species including we lowly hungry, fur loving humans.
Too many racoons, skunks, opossums and any bird species in the area is decimated -nest robbing. too many deer, turkeys -everything that eats acorns suffer in bad weather also having herds deer or more in your back yard eating every thing green or destroying the trees in your orchard.
The whole ecosystem no matter how big or small has a balance that nature is inefficient ,creul and slow to enact. It is a series of highs and lows that decimates both habitat and wildlife.
On the other hand ,careful,well thought out conservation measures provide a stabile ,continuous population that enteracts naturally but within the limits of each ecosystems carrying capacity and to the longtrm benefit of all species -including humans.
We are the only ones who can do the math and control wildlife populations so that we do not have to see Mother Natures horific solutions of over population- disease and starvation.
By bob on Wed, November 07, 2012 at 5:07 pm
I hate to burst your bubble, bob, but as long as there are those with the psychotic madman mentality among the ranks of the hunters and trappers, that way of life is doomed. As long as extremist groups like the NRA, Safari Club, Lobo Watch (which even encourages poaching) and Big Game Forever are calling the shots and having influence in issues like this, there are people gonna be turned off of those activities. I've heard of some people who've given up hunting and trapping because they don't want to be associated with those lunatics and their Cold War-esque propaganda. And some ethical ones who have stayed actually OPPOSE (where's a text italicize button when you need it?) wolf hunting and trapping. Some of whom were at the recent rallies in Minnesota.
Note that I didn't include fishing because I don't know of any of the aforementioned whack-jobs having much of an influence in that field. I've been fishing before, so I have no problem with it, although most of the fishing spots I've been to are those that encourage catch-and-release practices.
By Powerslave Wolf on Wed, November 07, 2012 at 3:15 pm
Ellen , population contol is the main reason for the taking of most
furbearers- not just money- That being the case does it not make sense to at
least utilize the fur.
Buying a fur coat is a good thing for furbearers. It gives them value so
they aren't just considered pestd/vermin.
I guess some would see me as somewhat a hypocrit as I see nothing wrong with utilizing the whole animal - food, leather, and the myriad other things that prey animals provide. but, Bob, your 'furbearing' animals (to my knowledge) only exist to provide us humans with trophies and/or fur lined cloaks,coats, hats etc. I suppose that is 'value' of a sort. In this 'modern' age though, their are many options that are warmer, prettier, longer lasting than the fur taken from animals. I do understand the need for population control in some areas since humans have practically wiped out the natural habitation of many animals leaving a conflict between animals and humans. unfortunately that means the animal loses. I know this a slightly different topic but, farm raised fur bearers are not wild. they must be well cared for due to the nature of humans wanting the BEST mink, chinchilla, ermine (yes I know about color phases). yet, in the end, it is all the same - humans want fur and animals suffer for it.
The more I read about the debate on furbearing and/or trophy killings, the more frustrated I get. there are good and bad points to each 'side' so I guess it just boils down to - what can 'your' conscious accept?
By Ellen on Wed, November 07, 2012 at 11:13 am
PSW- KUDOS for not supporting PETA. Now if you could find some facts to deal in and lay off the name calling and insults,a civil exchange of ideas might be possible.
You seem articulate but ill imformed about hunting and trapping. Your lack of civility does not make you points of view more valid.
If I were to find you in a trap I would release you unharmed as I have done to countless other nontarget species I have caught over the years.
Have you ever seen a wild animal that was captured in a "humane" cage type trap?( they try to chew out - breaks their teeth. Legholds do far less permanent damage.)
If your dog gets caught in a leghold all you have to do is release him or her. 99% of time they won't even limp for but a few moments. ( I have released dozens of dogs and even a few cats over the years -with no ill effects.)
Me, and my ilk will be fine for the next millieum or so, as long as we are good stewards of our wildlife resources and don't let sentiment guide us. We must use sound, proven, wildlife management practices, lethal and otherwise that allow ALL species to maintain healthy self sustaining populations. The billions of dollars sportsmen spend every year are the main reason our wildlife enjoys a promising future ad infinitum.
It seems that many hands on management personnel see and believe that the deer and elk herds are being negatively affected. The fawn crops are being decimated and the average age of the herd is increasing dramatically- this will lead to a disaster in the future. When the cows get too old to calf then what?
Wolves are no more or less important than any other species. They aren't your pets, they are magnificent wild beasts but no more so than any other animal. Lethal population control is necessary. Their fur is beautiful and should be worn proudly.
It would be better if they tasted like chicken.
Hunters,trappers and fishermen have been, are and will continue to be all wildlifes best friends.
Ellen , population contol is the main reason for the taking of most furbearers- not just money- That being the case does it not make sense to at least utilize the fur.
Buying a fur coat is a good thing for furbearers. It gives them value so they aren't just considered pestd/vermin.
By bob on Mon, November 05, 2012 at 12:45 pm
I'll have you know, bob, I'm NOT a PETA supporter. In fact, I find both PETAs (the ethical treatment of animals and the eating of tasty animals) irritating. You, on the other hand, are the short-sighted, narrow-minded, ignorant one. If you were ever caught in a trap and I came across you stuck in it, though, I'd likely point and laugh.
This is all gonna end very badly for you and your ilk. And when it does, I'm gonna have four sweet, sweet words for you: I Told You So.
By Powerslave Wolf on Fri, November 02, 2012 at 1:15 pm
Wyatt ,it is good to see comments from another who actually has walked the walk and knows the truth from hands on experience.
We hunters and trappers have the good of all wildlife in mind , not just the food species but predators as well. Some animals are best utilized for their fur but many people eat a number of non canine species. Regardless we must be good stewards and do our part to see that all species have a place and a piece of this world, including man. A wolf is no more or less important than any other beast. He must be managed the same. He ain't all that special. He is a large effiecent predator who can negatively effect his ecosystem unless his numbers are kept in check. His has fine fur and should be taken and used with pride.
Man is by nature an omnifarious hunter-gatherer.
We are all borne to hunt. Some have been trained to deny this but fear not- you can learn again. Rise up - get in the game-be part of the circle of life as nature intends.
If you aren't part of the circle what is your role here?
Armchair quarterbacks are for the fantasy leagues.
By bob on Fri, November 02, 2012 at 1:13 pm
Hi Bob, yes I'm still here and doing a lot of reading. I did research on the 'fur trade' and was surprised to see that it is still such a high fashion item. I'm not sure how much was hype and how much was true but in this day, I was really surprised how much fur clothing is pushed in the fashion world. I, personally, can see using cowhide, sheephide, rabbit and I suppose farm/ranch raised critters for fur. at least the cows,sheep(goats and swine too) and rabbits are used for food also. I still see no need for trapping/snaring (regardless whether the traps are 'humane' or not). that, to me, should have gone 'extinct' with the wild west days. granted, many people see it as an art, hobby, way of life but, as with the harp seal killings - I personally think another 'way of life' should be found. the Native people of whichever area should be allowed to continue with their historical lifestyle however I will never beleive that just because a person can afford the tag prices that they should be allowed to trap. I do understand that hunters do not want their 'take' damaged as this would lower the price at auction, hence the 'humane' traps. I still think the animal is in pain, certainly confused and then absolutely terrified in its last moments before the bullet ends its life. All for fashion and/or the almighty dollar!!??
By Ellen on Fri, November 02, 2012 at 12:49 pm
powerslave wolf (?)I hope u get in touch with reality someday. Best bet is to get out in the out of doors and meet Mother Nature face to face. Your comments suggest little or no experience past PETAS website.
You anti trapping folks need to keep in mind that that is the method used to capture the wolves that were reintroduced. They did not stock 3-legged wolves.
Ellen, hope you are well. Kudos for your persistance and civility I believe you still imagine far more misery than reality.
By bob on Fri, November 02, 2012 at 10:59 am
Wyatt, that's the exception, not the norm. Look at Bella, a husky who lost a hind leg to trap in a National Forest in Idaho. Countless more have actually been severely injured by traps, even chewed off their own limbs in an attempt to escape. Trapping is far from humane and it has to go.
By Powerslave Wolf on Thu, November 01, 2012 at 1:21 pm
people have no right to judge others for their beliefs and hobbies. take a close look at those pictures. the paw in the trap for example. do you see a cruel bloody mess and mangled foot on the wolf? no, because not only are traps humane, they cause no damage to the animal. research the topic. extensive research has been done, and it all points back to the fact that foothold traps do little harm to the animal. in no means is this torture. i am not bashing anyone. everyone has an opinion and i respect that. however it pains me to see people that have never trapped, hunted or fished, getting the wrong impression on these activity's. as a trapper i can tell you i have gotten my hand caught in a number of traps multiply times. its like closing a door on your hand. hurts for a minute and your fine after that. it doesn't do lasting damage. no one would trap if it maimed limbs because i assure 90% of trappers have gotten there hand caught in a trap one time or another. if traps really do that kind of damage, then no one would trap for fear of losing limbs. so not only is hunting, trapping, and fishing valued ways for many to pursue there happiness, it is also a major part of the economy. look how much money the fur industry puts into the economy. how about the hunting and fishing industry? all are vital parts of the economy that we cant live without.
By Wyatt on Thu, November 01, 2012 at 8:07 am
yeah the debate does rage on. another hunting season is upon us. beleive it or not, hunters and fishermen do have the best interest of FOOD animals at heart. hunting and fishing brings in not only food for the hunter/fisher but it does also bring in much needed monetary resources for the state. it IS management and it IS necessary. They are on the frontlines of letting 'us' know there is/isn't a problem somewhere. if 'trout' are dying out in a river - fishermen let 'us' know. likewise with ungulates, rabbits (hmmm are rabbits EVER in danger of extermination???), squirrels and whatever other animal people EAT! that being said, I will never agree with trapping/snaring of any animal. I don't believe in wearing 'fur' coats. to me they look much better on the live animal. and yes, I've heard the arguement that 'fur' is the best biodegradable clothing. still BS to me. we eat cattle, sheep, goats, swine, deer, elk, etc. ALL of those animals can be used in their entirety. What is done with the hapless wolf, bear, cougar (and yes again - I do understand the need to MANAGE them - not wipe out huge populations to satisfy trophy hunters) and other predators. their heads and hides are mounted on someones wall/floor. I don't honestly know what happens to the flesh but I've never heard of anyone eating anything other than bear.
unfortunately MAN has caused a huge imbalance in the prey/predator scenario. However, I can't see that changing. management of wildlife is a necessary fact of life. but it is something EVERYONE needs to take part in! there are proven non-lethal methods of wolf control. I know ranching is a hard way of life and it is necessary if we all want our steaks and hamburgers. However, the time of the wild west with its 'cattle baron' days is long gone. Ranchers MUST take responsibility for their herds' safety. And, to my mind, trappers/snarers need to find another way to 'respect' wildlife. if 'you' can spend hours/days studying the habits of your target species so that you lay a trap/snare in the right place - build a blind and put a much more 'civilized' bullet or arrow in the animal rather than make it sit there for up to 2-3 days in exhausted terror. yes, i know some trappers check their lines daily but that is still too long to suffer.
By Ellen on Wed, October 31, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Bob, pull your head out of your anus and get out of the Dark Ages. That mentality of hunters, fishermen and trappers being wildlife's best friends may have been true in past centuries. But that doesn't hold up anymore. Face it, their way of life is dying. And it's only a matter of time before their bloodlust becomes a distant memory. A dark, sadistic side of human history that's best forgotten.
By Powerslave Wolf on Wed, October 31, 2012 at 1:20 pm
Ahh the debate still rages. Another hunting season is passing by . Predators and prey will participate in and complete the circle of life . Hunters,man and beast will pursue and take their prey. Hunters and trappers will help nature balance its self against our presence. Some wolves will be killed , some wolves will survive.
Those of you who are watchers will never understand or comprehend the love and respect between predators and prey, hunters and hunted.
My family and I are again feeding on elk, mule deer, whitetail deer and antelope.
We regulate our portion of the wildlife herds with bag limits and seasons.
We must limit the large predators numbers as they know no seasons or limits. They hunt 24/7 365days a year and only by limiting their numbers can we keep them from destroying the resources they and us depend on for food.
Their relentless uncontrolled destruction of the calf and fawn crops will spell doom for the wolves,cougar,and bears of North America. Only through sound wildlife management practices -including treating them (large carnivores,wolves cougar, and bears) as game animals and hunting them,thus giving them $ value and controlling their numbers can their infinite future be assured.
Like it or not Hunters, Trappers and Fishermen are the very best friends that wildlife have. Our dollars are why we have the incredible wildlife resources, including wolves, we have.
How did they catch the wolves they reintroduced ? Leghold traps. Whose funds -hunters funds . Who did the work Fish and Game personnel?- paid by Hunters $$
Watchers just don't seem to be aquainted with reality.
Sorry Folks -The Wonderful World of Disney- where the animals all live happily ever after , singing together at sunset, is only a fairytail.
We have a moral responsibiliy to use sound wildlife management practices so future generations can enjoy the same awesome wildlife resources that we have. Watching does not achieve this goal.
By bob on Wed, October 31, 2012 at 11:55 am
Michael, these are NOT fantasy solutions. I hate to burst your bubble, but they are quite real. And they DON'T have to involve lethal deterrents. Ever hear of the Double Circle Ranch? They're based in the New Mexico/Arizona area, and are a prime example of ranching that's not stuck in the Dark Ages. Chief among them, they raise longhorns. They may not rake in the big $$$, but they're quite capable of protecting themselves. Since Double Circle started raising longhorns, they haven't lost a single head to predators. Other suggestions I've heard include buffalo or bison, both of which are quite capable of defending themselves. If more ranchers raised livestock that could protect themselves, maybe there wouldn't be so many worrying about losing heads to predators. It's not quantum physics. It's just common sense. Chew on that!
By Powerslave Wolf on Sat, October 27, 2012 at 1:31 pm
Powerslave Wolf, your suggestion might have been simple, but it is also one that is not realistic and will not work. People like you dream up these "simple" solutions and pat yourself on the back while deriding people who you think are too stupid to see it your way. If you did comprehend the entire situation you would realize these simple solutions simply won't work. So yes, you who first called someone else ignorant is ignorant.
By Michael on Fri, October 26, 2012 at 12:02 pm
You are so arrogant, Michael. Can't handle a simple suggestion? Too bad! And you call me ignorant? Looks who's talking! People like you, Noah, and the vast majority of the ranching and hunting block are the very definition of ignorant. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
By Powerslave Wolf on Thu, October 25, 2012 at 1:04 pm
Right on, Emily Jane! You don't need to have wolves at your door to understand what's happening. Ignorant people resort to name calling when they can't express themselves any intelligent way with valid points!
By Elizabeth on Thu, October 25, 2012 at 12:09 pm
Powerslave Wolf, you are calling someone an "ignorant moron" but I am sure many people think you are a prime example of one as well. Chances are great that wolves and other species of wildlife once lived where you and most other wolf advocates now encroach, which makes you, your pets, and cities invasive elements as well. Think about that for a while, and tell us how you plan to rectify that.
Just how do you propose ranchers make livestock "as alert an vigilant as deer or elk are with wolves around" [sic]? For your information, cattle do not possess the characteristics of deer and elk or have the ability to be taught that. That point is moot though because regardless of how alert deer and elk may be the wolves still kill them, lots of them. Clearly, you are ignorant of what you don't know.
As I said before, ones who are without firsthand experience of a situation might do some reading and with some imagination rationalize they know and comprehend as if they are there, but fail to realize there is much they will not comprehend because they are only figuratively seeing part of the picture. Imagination and reality do not often coincide, don't fool yourselves.
By Michael on Thu, October 25, 2012 at 2:15 am
Wow, Noah. Well-read, well-informed, intelligent people can understand situations from different parts of the country or the world. Usually people resort to name calling when they either A) know that their argument has no merit or B) don't have enough intelligence to continue with a civil debate. Which category fits you? I am in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. We live on 40 acres with horses, donkeys, peacocks, chickens, dogs and cats. We have had bears on our back deck (they climbed the stairs to get to the bird feeders), coyotes in our pasture, wolves in the state land bordering our property and even heard a cougar once. Management, maybe. Slaughter, absolutely not.
I would REALLY like to know how you can look into a crystal ball and know that a wolf killed for 'fun'. Why isn't it possible that they killed for food and then were scared off of the carcass? Did you personally witness the kill? If not, why couldn't it have been a different predator? Where is the actual evidence versus the hype and scare tactics?
By Emily Jane on Wed, October 24, 2012 at 9:34 pm
Noah, you are just showing what an ignorant moron you are. You ranchers are the ones encroaching on wolf territory, not the other way around. Your livestock are the invasive species. If I had a choice between shooting cattle or a wolf, I would shoot the cattle. And it would it kill a rancher to make their livestock alert to predators!? If livestock were as alert an vigilant as deer or elk are with wolves around, maybe the ranchers wouldn't be losing so many livestock. It's not NASA-grade rocket science.
By Powerslave Wolf on Wed, October 24, 2012 at 5:05 pm
ranchers do NOT lose money if it is a VERIFIABLE wolf kill. they are paid for the lost cow/sheep. if it isn't a verifiable WOLF kill they don't get money. simple as that. ranchers still need to take responsibility for their herds. as for the bison, if you go back far enough you find that cattle brought here by europeans brought brucellosis with them. whether they then gave it to the elk first or bison first is a moot point. The bison released do NOT have the disease so can not spread it. why is it that some people think that just because 'someone' doesn't live there that 'someone' can't understand what is going on? yep, you are right about studying neuroscience does not make you a doctor but I'm not trying to be a person of medicine - but I do hope I'm a person of common sense. Wolves do need to be managed, I understand that, but they do NOT need to be exterminated! and, I assume by the sound of the post that you would prefer to see all Bison round up and forced to live in Yellowstone then shot if they dare set one foot outside the perimeter they can't see? Also, you said that 'some wolves' kill for pleasure. so that means most if not all wolves should die?
If I lived in an area where predators were frequent visitors - I'd take care of my animals. and, yes, I have lived in cougar country, bear country and them darn little coyotes are everywhere! Raptorsg will take small animals (I used to raise small dogs in the desert area - never out without me!)
just as a small aside - there is no reason to cuss/call names. adults can have different opinions without vulgar language.
By Ellen on Wed, October 24, 2012 at 2:54 pm
This why we need management…. Some Wolves kill for pleasure. Thats a waste of $900-$1000 that the rancher is now out. Just something to think about. This cow was left like this… Your a bleepin idiot mam'. You dont live here, I can read about neuro science, that doesnt mean i can go perform brain surgery. You can read info about wolves but that doesnt mean you know how to manage them and how the effect the people. Your argument is bogus. You are an idiot. The buffalo cary the diseace then it passed to the elk, then to the cattle. Please look into that. I am studying fish, game, and wildlife management at Montana State. You have no idea what you are talking about. Your an idiot, I want to release wolves inside the area in which you live and hope they start killing other animals and tell you and your idiot friends, "Well take better care of your animals. You do not understand the situation. so shut your no good mouth.
By noah on Tue, October 23, 2012 at 6:51 pm
I, for one thing, would never say that ranchers are lazy. that is one HARD way to make a living! BUT, they do need to take some responsiblity for the wolf decimation that is going on in some areas. there are PROVEN ways to keep herds safer and some ranchers ARE embracing them. I have a major problem with the ranchers that graze their herds (our future dinners, remember!) on public lands then complain that the livestock are being killed. EVERYTHING I've found says that proven predation by wolves is extremely small and that death by other causes way out weighs the wolf problem. illness, birthing problems, weather are all more of an issue than predator deaths. I've had people send me pictures (including some misguided politicians!) of calves,cows, lambs, sheep, etc.. disemboweled/ripped up, and some still alive as a hope (I guess???) to prove to me how 'evil' wolves are. sorry. It didn't work. I've yet to see a predator walk up to its prey and say 'pretty please, lay down and die so I don't have to rip you up'.
there seems to now be a concerted effort of ranchers/hunters/trappers etc to tell the rest of the world that 'we' don't understand the situation because 'we' don't live there. that is such BS. I can read. I can think for myself. I can follow science. I still have found no major impacts of wolves killing or maiming humans. yet, one of the complaints is that children waiting for buses are in danger. hmmm, I think that can be said of children everywhere - dogs cause much more damage in that respect than wolves. pets are killed by wolves - hmmmm take better care of your pets?! working dogs, by definition, are in jeopardy regardless of whether they are livestock herders, livestock guardians, household guardians, etc. but I can pretty much guarantee that a pack of wolves will not attack several livestock guardians! the risk of death or injury to the wolf is too great.
unfortunately, there is never going to be a 'happy medium' on this topic. I do wish that the ranchers and hunters would just realize that some concessions DO need to be made. it seems like many ranchers have the mindset that supposedly went out with the idea of the 'wild west'. in other words, if they have the money and/or over inflated ego, they seem to think they can have it 'their way'. case in point here - the bison that are PROVEN to be biologically pure and healthy that have been released into their original homerange are under fire by ranchers insisting that they will give their cattle brucellosis. scientifically impossible. Elk, however DO pass the disease on. hmm, so lets kill ALL the elk! (I am kidding on 'kill the elk' - that won't happen!)
By Ellen on Mon, October 22, 2012 at 11:11 am
@ Powerslave wolf. You are an ignorant person. Please explain how ranchers are lazy. 75% of food in america comes from ranches, so shut it. If you really read my comments people I'm not calling out for the annihilation of wolves, i said they needed to be managed like any other game animal. Powerslave you are an ignorant moron, ranchers own land have all the rights in the world to graze their cattle on it, and if a wolf is harassing their cattle they have every right in the world to protect their property! Don't ever call a rancher/hunter lazy, they do more in a day then you will ever do. Ellen I agree with management, annihilation isn't the answer but no management isn't the answer either
By Noah on Sat, October 20, 2012 at 6:18 pm
Ellen, one reason you read various stances on the game population is the wolves are not evenly distributed. It is true in some areas the game population hasn't been affected to the degree it has in other areas. So, you will hear that the game population is either doing well or is not doing well, depending on where the information comes from which could be confusing. In my area, it is not doing well, but I am glad it is doing well in some other areas, which tend to be where the wolves are either absent from the scene or thinner in numbers. People tend to lump it all together, but it is not homogenous. The feeding of big game is rather limited to small areas.
My opinion is that unless you are from these areas and have a long firsthand knowledge and experience of how diverse these large areas are along with the distribution of game and wolves it may be quite difficult to comprehend the situation in entirety. That isn't meant as an insult, but many people here in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming resent that people who are not personally affected and really have rather limited facts have been quite vocal about the entire issue have had a disproportionate amount of influence considering that.
By Michael on Fri, October 19, 2012 at 1:50 pm
Ah, can it noah! Nobody here with a brain in their skull believes any of the boo-boo bullshit coming from the ranchers' and hunters' mouths. I certainly don't believe those lazy slobs who are hellbent on turning our wild lands into one big-ass grazing land/shooting gallery. Their actions will come back to bite them in the ass soon. And no mercy will be shown to them!
By Powerslave Wolf on Fri, October 19, 2012 at 1:45 pm
Noah (oct 18 post), I understand your statement about not understanding what living in the middle of wolf country can do to humans. however, your comment about ' have you done research on wolves killing….'. most of the scientific research I've done - not just the 'I hate wolves vs I love wolves' show that livestock losses are miniscule when wolf predation is added into the list of other death causes. yes, i'm sure there are wolves that do over kill. sadly, I agree that if they get into that habit they must be managed. however, to say ALL wolves must be hunted is, in my opinion, stupid! how can a layman decide which way to go in the wolf debate when so much erroneus information is put out there. depending on where you read - elk and deer are overpopulated and must be fed to survive the winter - yet in other write ups you see 'oh my god, the elk and deer are being ravaged by wolves!
as far as trapping/snaring goes, I will always vehemently say it is cruel! the person who mentioned that they allowed their hand/finger to be snapped in a trap and it didn't hurt - YOU had the choice to put your hand in it - a wild creature, be it a wolf, coyote, bobcat,,,etc never chose that. maybe it doesn't 'hurt' in the way we humans think of it - but it is a cessation of the freedom they are accustomed to having. this 'thing' now has a firm hold of their leg/paw and just pulling and thrashing around to try and free themselves is going to HURT! I've read accounts of human hunters going up to a trapped animal who was just 'laying in the sun and napping'. hmmm, wonder if they were just exhausted from fighting this 'non painful trap/snare'? and from the pictures posted with a snared animal that was suffocated with a wire around its neck - that is not humane in any way.
again, I have nothing against hunting for food and PROPER management of predators. there is a time/need for predator control but I do not believe that ranchers should have the final say nor do I believe that the big money legislators should be able to just wipe out years of work by turning a protected species into vermin that is allowed to be shot on site. We almost lost the wolf to that idea once and it looks like we are going to lose the wild wolf to prejudice and un-mitigated hatred once again.
By Ellen on Fri, October 19, 2012 at 10:11 am
Can you please right a follow up article about cattle torture and execution in the Rocky Mountains? With all do respect Dr. Gibson, you do not even live in the rocky mountains and see the effects wolves have on populations of cattle and elk. Its not like trappers purposely trapped a wolf just by the pad on the wolves foot… Whatever person made a deal about that is lacking some intelligence. Wolf populations are one of the fastest growing game populations in the rocky mountains, and thus they need to be harvested and managed just like any other game animal. It is ridiculous that a person not even surrounded by the situation in the rockies is fussing over this matter of wolf execution. And in your article you say people on the right wing demonize wolves. Shame on you. Until you live in the rockies and see how wolves effect people, do not try to act like you know what your talking about. People up here in Montana on both sides of the political spectrum have a fair share of people who are pro wolfs and those against. There are some left winged people here that can't stand what wolves to their livestock. Have you ever done any research into wolves and how they have been proven to kill animals for pleasure??? Let me know what you think. To all the people who commented on this who are from the east coast, calli, or wherever your from, pull your thik skulls out of your butts and look at the facts. HAVE SOME EMPATHY FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY ARE EFFECTED BY WOLVES AND WHAT THEY DO, AND WHO ARE EFFECTED WHEN THE GOVERNMENT CHANGES LAWS REGARDING TO WOLF HARVESTING… hunters enjoy the presence of bears elk deer lions and everything because we are allowed to hunt them and have gained a respect and a gratitude towards these animals. We gained that through hunting and we care for the well being of these animals. The same thing can happen with wolves if you allow it too.
By noah on Thu, October 18, 2012 at 11:43 pm
Stop the killing!!
By Martha on Tue, September 25, 2012 at 6:54 pm
If you feel the "need" to kill an innocent animal do it humanely not like some imbecilic. Lets hope one of your own young doesn't get their foot caught in that, or there might be a different story here.
People like you make me ashamed to be human.
Please become worm chow and make the world a better place
By Becky on Thu, August 30, 2012 at 3:31 pm
I follow most of the wildlife hunting/trapping threads I can find. plus, I check out science based sites about wildlife management. I have absolutely nothing against hunting for food. I physically can't hunt myself but do enjoy it when I can get deer or the very infrequent bit of elk I've had. and, as much as I hate to admit it - I do realize that SOME management of high profile predators may be necessary in SOME instances. however, I have always felt that trapping/snaring is highly inhumane no matter how stealthy the human is with regards to studying their victim. yes, I understand that hunters think there is a 'art' or something to be able to find where a wolf will lay its paw down. SNAP! there goes the sprung trap and the wolf (if no non target species happened along) is grabbed so nicely that the trap doesn't even break the skin. come on! this is a WILD creature that until 2 seconds ago had never been so frightened, so hurt, so frantic that some have even chewed off their own foot. I am sorry but there is no way anyone can tell me that a foot caught in a trap or a neck in a snare doesn't hurt. Management of a species does NOT mean wipe out 3/4 of the population in one season and then continue to do so year after year until they are extinct in the wild again. and, one thing so many 'hunters' seem to forget is that wolves are pack/family oriented groups. If some of the pack is killed the rest is thrown into confusion. then you get the problems with the youngsters not learning the proper prey animals (it IS easier to kill a calf/lamb than an elk after all). so the solution that seems easiest is to kill the entire pack. oh wow, I'm so glad I'm human and can think my way out of a box. geesh
so the wolves, bears, coyotes, cougars take elk, deer or whatever else us so wise humans want too. I don't want to see anything starve - that is too cruel for any creature. BUT, even with human hunters - feed has to be put out for the ungulates in many instances. and this happens even with wolves killing them. the big thing I strenuously object to is the hunters who put out feeding stations for the deer, elk etc year round. then wait in a convenient blind for the animal to come up to eat and end up being shot. so, yes, I believe the prey species are getting more wary because of wolves and thus harder to find. do I feel sorry for the hunter in that case? nope.
we do need some control, I know that, but until there is some legitimate and scientifically sound research done as to the 'sustainable' number of wolves there will always be hatred on both pro and anti wolf 'sides' livestock ranchers need to stop hollering about the few livestock that is actually taken by wolves. all the research points to loss by predators is at the bottom of the list of cause of death. numbers of elk and deer fluctuate. the person who said that one wolf needs 8-10 elk if that was the only thing it ate may be true. however, they don't eat just elk. they, like human hunters, don't always get their prey. plus, all the pictures showing a dead/dying calf should come with a disclaimer (sarcasm meant here) that says 'the wolf forgot to ask this baby to lie down and die nicely'. I have never seen a predator kill that was killed easily and carved up with a knife and fork!
By Ellen on Thu, August 30, 2012 at 2:04 pm