text:
Microsoft has criticised parts of the gaming community for spreading "misinformation" about the performance of Xbox One, and claimed that the alleged power difference between the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One has been "greatly overstated".
In a post on NeoGAF, Xbox exec Albert Penello commented that, though he was "not disparaging Sony... the way people are calculating the differences between the two machines isn't completely accurate. I think I've been upfront I have nothing but respect for those guys, but I'm not a fan of the mis-information about our performance."
Penello then goes on to clarify key elements of the two consoles that he believes are often misunderstood, including beliefs that the lower amount of Compute Units available in the Xbox One lead to a 50 per cent power disadvantage, and that Xbox One's memory is slower.
Say what you want about the specs, but you have to give to give respect to Albert Penello for his down to earth and frank nature when discussing this.
Obviously, he works for MS so he has to defend the product, but he does so with far more objectivity than the likes of Harrison and others.
Also, I think we can all agree that taking these hardware figures at face value and equating them to a 50% advantage is silly and not taking into account the way things actually work.
"Given this continued belief of a significant gap, we're working with our most senior graphics and silicon engineers to get into more depth on this topic. They will be more credible then I am, and can talk in detail about some of the benchmarking we've done and how we balanced our system."
More disclosure and transparency is the way forward.
I wouldnt praise the frank nature of anyone working for PR at Microsoft , nor Sony nor Nintendo nor any other ....
It's their job description to lie when its needed . And obviously , they dont even always know that much when it comes to hardcore tech and geek stuff
They're skilled in evasion. They're supposed to be.
What I keep getting stuck on is that these console power debates are really just stuck with the people on places like n4g and NeoGAF. To me, it just feels like fanboys of either camp just trying to convert each other.
Remember when Sony said that they have over a million preorders? One million is a small fraction of the people who will own the console over its lifespan. The arguments on here are pointless if the mass of buyers don't see them. I was at friend's house the other night, and I was one of the three there to have a next gen console preordered. I'm getting a ps4 and the other two are getting Xbox One. These guys have no idea about any differences in console power, they wouldn't have a sweet clue who Penello is, they are only vaguely familiar with TV features, new Kinect features, Gaikai, remote play, etc., they don't even mind paying the extra $100. The only thing that seemed to matter was that they have to wait a week longer than me.
All that I am trying to say is too many people are getting caught up arguing this foolishness.
I'll be happy with my PS4, and I'm sure others will be happy with their own console purchase(s)
Too many people are trying to convince others that their future purchase is wrong. So what if it is? Let the buyer find out on their own.
"• We have more memory bandwidth. 176gb/sec is peak on paper for GDDR5. Our peak on paper is 272gb/sec. (68gb/sec DDR3 + 204gb/sec on ESRAM). ESRAM can do read/write cycles simultaneously so I see this number mis-quoted."
Here is an exceptional piece of BS.
Our peak ON PAPER is 272gb/sec. YOU DON'T CALCULATE THE PEAK LIKE THAT BY ADDING IN THE ESRAM WITH THE DDR3, THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS, IN THE LINE ABOVE HE SAYS PEOPLE ARE TAKING THE GPU COMMENT OUT OF CONTEXT, THEN WHAT BS IS THIS?!
Well Albert has a tough job. You have to admire the way that he's spinning this. I realize that just because the GPU has 50% more compute units than the bone's doesn't equate into 50% better performance. However, I also realize that the eDRAM is only 32mb and it's high bandwidth doesn't equate 1:1 with the DDR3 for the big boost that he's trying to spin in there LOL. Overall I'd estimate that if you pushed both systems to the max you'd probably see about 30% performance difference in the PS4's favor, not 50%. However, this is all null if you don't get both systems running at their max. The only time that we're going to see that is with exclusive software.
Of course he's lying!! Why wouldn't he be!
Pathetic.. Saw it coming a mile away... Spin fanboys spin!
"I realize that just because the GPU has 50% more compute units than the bone's doesn't equate into 50% better performance."
lol! This is unfreaking real. The level of denial by xbox users is off the freaking charts. xD
And read the rest of the thread to understand why Penello is being a deceitful little *****.
PS4 vs XBOX One: Developer Comments Compiled
Sony is not the one that has been saying it!! This guy is blaming sony for what random Devs have been saying.
well im sure this MS employee is completely unbiased in his writing...right?
Is Albert Penello the system architect? Because he really needs to STFU.
Sony isn't saying the PS4 is 50% more powerful, the DEVELOPERS are. So no matter what you try and explain your way out of, you can't, because the games makers are noticing the difference.
Also that bandwidth comment is complete BS. He's comparing peak bandwidth, of ESRAM and DDR3 as the peak possible performance. Bandwidth doesn't work like that. The ESRAM is on 32MB, so data will have to be cut up into 32MB, passed through that bottleneck, which will slow it down LOADS, and then to the 8GB DDR3 RAM, which runs at 68Gb/s. The PS4's entire RAM pool can run at 176Gb/s in peak performance. PS4 wins, easily.
@gaffy & others:
I didn't see Penello refer to what Sony said, and use that as a basis. If anything, he is just talking about mis-information that is thrown around by some (not necessarily Sony) and giving examples of how numbers can be misconstrued.
Our peak ON PAPER is 272gb/sec. YOU DON'T CALCULATE THE PEAK LIKE THAT BY ADDING IN THE ESRAM WITH THE DDR3, THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS,"
That is exactly how you compute bandwidth as long as you have simultaneous access. Think of water pipes, if you have multiple smaller pipes that combined gives you more water than one big pipe, you indeed have higher bandwidth of water coming through. It doesn't matter that it comes through multiple pipes. This is exactly how your memory works.
What is often not discussed though is the equivalent of the length of your water pipe. You might be able to get a lot of water at once, but if your pipe is very long it will take you a long time to get that initial water (or data), causing a delay.
This equivalent to latency, something DDR3 has a big advantage over GDDR5.
Think of an online match, even if you have gazillion Mbps, a small Mbps can have superior experience with minimal lag, whereas a large Mbps can have massive lag. The simple answer is online gaming is dependent on latency i.e how long it takes to get the data, and almost zero bandwidth need. The amount of data being sent and receive is minimal, but the time is the killer factor.
That is why a lot of these numbers on their own is at best a very very very rough measurement and often times skewed towards marketing as opposed to real world benefits.
The sony Fanboys commenting on the system power here are complete embecile, and know absolutely nothing. But here are exact figures.
40.67% gpu difference in favor of sony (since x1 upclock, prior to thats it was 50%) (853x12)vs (800x18)
9.375% cpu advantage in favour of x1 (thanks to upclock- prior it was even) (1.75 vs 1.6)
Ram in terms of bandwidth sony have the advantage but in terms of latency x1 have the advantage. Sony takes steps to minimalize latency disadvantages and x1 introduce es ram to achieve 140-150gb/ps (realistically) vs sony's 176 gb/ps. I know Panello says differently but numerous tech sites describe it in this way.
I also understand that x1 have larger buses- 30gb vs sony's 20gb. I beleive panello mentions this when he talks about the cpu communicating with the gpu at 30gb/ps. Sony is 33% slower in this regard.
X1 has 8 gb of flash to help os run and load apps very fast compared to sony's standard hdd from which apps would load from.
MSOFT confirms that x1 have numerous sub systems and customizations that are unknown to us and supposed to reduce the power gap. They announced they have 15 processors in the system (at hot chips) and is rumored that some of these processors can be used for graphics which would further reduce sony's power advantage.
Honestly i believe msoft- A lot of ppl on forums are implying the ps4 will make xbox one look like a wii u- or ps4 is a generation ahead of xbox when that is not the case.
Take the wii-u for example- its 2-3x more powerful than ps3/360 but do game3s look 2-3x better than the multiplat counterpart on ps3 or 360? No but there are small differences. Look at the wii- its also a few times more powerful than ps2/xbox and gamecube and you get the same results lol.
is it more powerful...is it not more powerful....?
I dont give a damn. just give me the games and i will decide for myself.
@nuke - by that logic the Xbox 360 has a higher bandwidth than the Xbone because the eDram runs at 256Gb/s. So the Xbone is actually a downgrade. We all know that isn't true, so please cut the BS.
@strife - CPU speed isn't confirmed. Original rumours stated 1.6Ghz, since Feb it has been rumoured to be 2 Ghz.
I believe the ESRAM bandwidth will be used primarily for textures, obviously. Since textures use up most of the memory and takes up most of the space.
It's crazy in how the likes of Hammadthebeast talk so much about the architectures of these consoles yet still don't have a clue of what they're talking about, even just the basics. But makes more sense when emotions easily take over.
My question to all of you nay sayers.
Has Sony been confident enough to post anything of relevancy compared to what Microsoft has been doing these past months with Xbox One?
That goes to show they have nothing to show but specs.
The only thing that Sony has and why their games look great is because they have better first party developers. NOT SPECS!
If you can't consider that fact, goes to show how much you know. Microsoft this gen are going to focus more on first party studios fairly early with Black Tusk Studios.
Yes, but in Xbox One's archetectural panel video they stated clear time and time again that the ESRAM will take full advantage of that very purpose and why i't s an "upgrade" from the EDRAM.
Again, you make yourself look foolish.
"@nuke - by that logic the Xbox 360 has a higher bandwidth than the Xbone because the eDram runs at 256Gb/s. So the Xbone is actually a downgrade. We all know that isn't true, so please cut the BS."
Which also means the Xbox 360 is more powerful than the next generation PS4! /s
Totally proving my point, that these carefully crafted specs completely disregard other factors including that the Xbox One has more than 3x times the amount of RAM in ESRAM than eDRAM than the Xbox 360.
As Penello said, there are more to just pure numbers measuring very specific things ignoring other facts.
MS heavily engineered their system to handle bottlenecks and they have been far more open about what their system is compared to the competition (Sony) hiding behind a few carefully crafted specced numbers.
Your info is outdated the only reason that 2ghz cpu rumour is there because the cpu ships standard as a 2ghz cpu- both sony's and microsoft use the same cpu. Since then we learned newer rumors pointed to a downclock to 1.6ghz for less heat, run quieter and as a result runs on lower power.
Sony's system does not allow for an upclock to 2 ghz or their gpu to be clocked above 800mhz. why?
1st the system is small compared to x1,as a result parts are closer thus retaining more heat
2nd the cooling system is smaller and as a result would run louder if chips are upclocked.
3rd the power brick is inside the system opposed to outside and as a result adds more heat.
These 3 key characteristics will not allow ps4 to be clocked higher without seriously jeopordizing the components of the ps4. Due to the x1 efficient component layout- it allowed them to clock their chips higher.
You are correct. The ~50% more CU power in the PS4 is FAR from the whole story.
But the mindless fanboys are going to keep screaming "50% more powerful" because that's what they want to believe. They're just as delusional as the Xbox fanboys who believed that misterX guy about the second GPU thing.
I believe that the PS4 is more powerful, I simply reject the simplistic thinking of these fanboys that says "50% more compute units equals a 50% more powerful console". Herp derp.
If that were true, it would mean my PC with an HD 7950 was over 55% more powerful than the PS4, simply because my HD 7950 has 28 compute units vs 18 in the PS4. This clearly is not the case, as differences in APIs, OS overhead, architecture and other hardware and software differences can all dramatically affect the final performance of the machine in question.
We don't have all the details and even if we did I wouldn't be able to accurately say exactly how the performance of each console relates to each other. What I do know is that the fanboys saying "the PS4 is 50% more powerful" don't have a clue what they are talking about.
For now, I'll listen to people like John Carmack, a man who I respect and who has always shown himself to be knowledgeable, rational and fair.
In his words:
"I haven't done really rigorous benchmarking [but] they're very close and they're both very good," he said.
"It's almost amazing how close they are in capabilities, how common they are."
"And that the capabilities that they give are essentially the same."
I don't see what he said wrong, the info is all right here http://www.eurogamer.net/ar... I mean reading it and what he said seems legit for the most part. Ps4 on paper is more powerful but alot of the 50%, 40% stuff is BS according to all sources and most say X1 has some strengths that were previously unknown and nobody's completely sure how it all works. Which is again why putting a hard % on performance difference is foolish at this point but of course fanboy engineers/n4g experts will tell you they know everything.
@ Starchild why dont you also listen to the GOW Judgment dev that also claimed the PS4 is indeed that much more powerful
Wow, the level of stupidity and ignorance shown by half the people above me is astounding.
First of all, to all the MS fanboys claiming better latency on the X1. Its not gonna matter, because when it comes to graphics, bandwidth is king, PERIOD! not latency, FACT! Why do you think all high end cards have GDDR5 and not lower latency modules. When it come to the highly parallelized architecture of a GPU, bandwidth is what matters most (keeping all the pipes feed) not latency. Get that through your thick dumb heads. Latency is not going to matter in graphics processing. And GPUs are design to better handle the higher latency. Than a serial CPU.
And to strifeblade, dont call people "embeciles" if you cant even spell the word "imbecile" right, cuz it makes you look like an imbecile. Also the Wii U is 2-3 times more powerful than the PS3/360!? What the f*ck have you been smoking? Tell Nintendo to send me some of that sh*t. There goes all your credibility. Its obvious you know less of what you speak of than even NukeitAll
And PowerVR, you obviously know even less than Nuke or Strife, geesh! its getting dumber in here
And p.s. to Nuke, the 360s eDRAm had 256, wait for it, gigaBITS, you catch the word "BITS", not bytes, as in 1/8 the size of BYTES. Translated into bytes equated to 32GBytes, not 256GBytes. You get it? Or do i have to further spell it out for you?
And these are games machine first, and multimedia devices second. And in a games machine graphics is very important/king, and for graphics, bandwidth matters way more than latency. So the higher bandwidth of the PS4 will better benefit developers then the lower latency of the DDR3 in the X1. Also, answer me this. If latency is so important to a games system, then why didnt MS go with 1866MHz DDR3 RAM? it has even lower latency than the 2133Mhz RAM they went with, since latency is obviously so myuch more important according to MS fanboys. Also people, we are talking nanosecond differences here. What's that going to translate into on a app on screen? half a sec? less? We are talking billionths of a second. Now stop spewing sh*t y'all know nothing about just because you's wanna defend your beloved MS.
And btw, anything that is that latency dependent can just be put into the CPU's cache (which btw is way faster still) anyway, as long as its not to big. And what are they going to put in the 32MB eSRAM? AA? how you gonna fit gigabytes worth of textures into a 32MB buffer.
But with all that said, I do believe that games will be developed for the lowest common denominator and therefore, we will barely notice a difference on multiplats. Unless Im wrong and devs give the PS4 version higher res or higher framerates, or more effects. But i doubt it, for the sake of parity, cuz you know the pople with the inferior version will whine about
These debates are fun sometimes, but they do get old too. All this arguing when most games will look very close probably isn't worth it. The truth is, if the Xbox One is a little more powerful than the PS4 (doubt it), it's not going to make me want it more. I am choosing PS4 over the XB1 due to the games that appeal to me, the Instant Game Collection and all of the other little things that make up the whole experience. Will we see differences in some games, sure, but most will be close.
Yep, that post is frankly quite embarrassing, seeing how most of it is bullshit, anyone that has any clue about how computers function can spot this immediately - I would recommend everyone to actually read the replies in the thread after his post, they explain why Albert are spewing poop!
Way too much anger from someone talking about video games. Latency is not an issue with GPU's. That is true. GPU'sare not linear in the way they compute. This is why all the top cards use a gig or two of GDDR5. In a traditional PC setup GDDR5 is not good for the CPU since latency is an issue. CPU's run much more efficiently using DDR3. Neither console is setup like a traditional PC, they have a combo CPU/GPU that share memory pools. Sony choose GDDR5 and Microsoft went with DDR3. If they both accessed that memory the same way, the GDDR5 in the PS4 would be much faster due to the increased bandwidth as far as graphics go. We really have no idea how latency on the CPU side is going to be addressed. Microsoft choose to go with DDR3 with their pool. Great for CPU's but slower than GDDR5 for GPU's. They addressed this with the inclusion of eSram. They also included 8 gigs of flash memory and access the memory pool a little different than the PS4. It's a much more complex solution, but it addresses both sides of the CPU/GPU to maximize efficiency. We have yet to see how this translates to games. That is the job of the developers. They will exploit the strengths of each system.
As for your games are all about graphics rant, that couldn't be further from the truth. The Last of Us is the latest example of a triple a game we have on consoles. Graphically it is a very nice, but the story and execution are what make it great. A game that is pretty, but has no substance is a very hollow experience and not one remembered well.
Sorry dante, i guess if i do not spell imbecile correctly therefore i am one, not the hundreds of baseless comments i see from the fanboys next time i will spellcheck. Thankyou for contributing, truly enlightening.
The wii u is more powerful than current gen- 2 gb of ram more powerful gpu, and the cpu is held back by the tablet processing but its solid when compared to ps3/360. Some sources are conflicting. Most sources point it being on par or more powerful- it just has not translated to games (some multiplats look slightly better on wii u) since game engines are difficult to port to the wii u. Again u like to throw around baseless comments without support in an attempt to discredit me. Its pathetic that you cannot contest my points (they are facts) yet choose to get me on a spelling error and point out a wii u comment? Sorry i am not intersted in the wii u or if my info of is dated on the subject as ps4/x1 are my true interests and researched heavily into the matter.
Your not a hardware engineer so you are not fit to comment of the efficiecy of latency or lack there of. I stated the FACTS, you put the SPIN. If latency did not matter then why did sony take measures to reduce it? lol. at the end ddr3 is still faster and we have yet to see how that will translate into multiplats. Get it through your thick skull. We don't know anything for certain until they are out.
yeah, I'll believe carmack since he's made oh about 5 games his whole career that ended up on a foreign system. The guy's been a microsoft tool for years. Jesus, he even looks kinda like Bill Gates.
"And PowerVR, you obviously know even less than Nuke or Strife, geesh! its getting dumber in here."
Yeah buddy, nice one. So can you at least elaborate on that?!
Sorry for being too concise, don't want to make a mess with lil' fuzzy heads blowing up.
You calling the eSRAM a buffer or how lower latency is not a HUGE contribution of keeping the pipelines fed, is a huge indicator in how much you know (vewy little).
The eSRAM is more like a "scratchpad memory" built on chip making it very fast. Big advantage is you don't have to deal with latency issues with GPU/CPU RAM and bottleneck software implementations...BIG DEAL, since lower latency provides MORE "SUSTAINABLE" BANDWIDTH! Therefore keeping "pipelines fed".
So eSRAM is SUPERIOR to GDDR5 and GDDR3 for vital applications (textures) and why it points DIRECTLY at the GPU. Can you tell me otherwise?! I doubt it!
"And what are they going to put in the 32MB eSRAM? AA? how you gonna fit gigabytes worth of textures into a 32MB buffer."
See what I'm talking about?
That is why they have DMEs to compress and scale those "render to textures" and leave the main memory for whatever the hell developers can think of to add to. For those of you that don't know what that means...GENIUS DESIGN over BRUTE FORCE!
Don't you think they would have known better that GBs of data wouldn't fit into 32mbs of space. My goodness some of you are just a bunch of mooks on this site.
So yes, it is indeed about bandwidth. And since bandwidth has more so to do a lot with textures it is then textures that are important to solve and why Microsoft makes a huge deal about the eSRAM.
But again, it's also all about first party developers taking advantage of the hardware which are a few in many third party developers.
Features, features, features...features. Microsoft dominates features because they target casuals, not the easy consumers who are easily swayed by BS specs.
Also, how everyone miss the point of the silicon dies is either because they don't understand or they don't even want to consider it. The former more likely.
@stevehyphen FINALLY!!! Someone with some sense on this site. Everything you said...absolutely true. There's hope for N4G yet!
Oh come on, what a useless debate.
Who really cares what numbers and what engine tool a system is going to have.
Both consoles' games look great and are very realistic.
I don't really see much of a difference between the 2 of them.
The real deciding factor is the games they will have and how good they are.
If you look on NeoGAF, you'd see people are tearing Penello apart for trying to straight-up lie and deceive people, because the numbers and figures he's been quoting do not add up at all, and anybody with even the most simple and basic understanding of hardware knows that he's on a campaign of deceit.
Really, the guy is trying to spread as much misinformation about the Xbox One as possible to make it look good, and more and more people are calling him out on his nonsense now. Penello is in no way deserving of any respect whatsoever, it's actually rather disgusting that he's going to such great lengths to try and trick people.
Thankfully, the crowd he's trying it on with are ripping his lies apart.
Exactly. The esram might well be read-write at the same time, but the best case scenario throughput figures they offer are not realistic in use, they are a theoretical maximum in utterly unrealistic real world conditions.
At a very basic level he says their CPU is faster- does he know PS4's clockspeeds? He said he doesn't, only a couple weeks back.
This leads onto the claim Xbox one has a better sound chip, and takes more load off the CPU. He knows this because he knows much more about Sony's custom chipset with its secondary processor like he apparently knows their finalised clocks? HMMM!!!
He said that having 50 percent more CUs doesn't equate to 50 percent performance. Actually it generally does, because graphics tasks are incredibly parallel. For example a Radeon 7870 is twice the card as the 7770 on paper, and in gaming performance, unsurprisingly it is almost exactly twice as fast.... http://www.guru3d.com/artic...
He quoted the wrong peak bandwidth figured based on the old clocks of Xbox one (800mhz figure, not 853mhz figure)
He can't say if the eSRAM can ALWAYS read/write simultaneously. It probably can't.
But....yea. It goes on like this. We don't have good answers from them yet.
Even if their CPU is 10% faster he is ignoring the fact that their OSes plus hypervisor are going to eat up any CPU performance advantage the xb1 might have.
Your right. As I said earlier the PR for M$ have no idea how the xbone works. They make up numbers, and out right lie about the product they are trying to sell.
This is nothing new. M$ PR team have been tying to clean up this mess that they created since the announcement of the xbone.
They should be puking their guts out from all this spinning that their doing.
@ vulcanproject
I see what you're saying and I agree with you, what I don't understand is how this guy gets called out because he doesn't know all the details of the machines, but you have the full picture and all the details? Almost every PS zealot is in here stating he is dead wrong because he doesn't even know everything about the PS4, so I ask how the hell do all of you KNOW everything about both machines? If I understand your point it's, someone in the industry can't possible know or comment about the gap in power between the 2 consoles, but all these armchair warriors on N4G can, and have such a superior knowledge on these consoles, right?
How can you write a comment bashing him for not knowing all the facts when there is no way possible that you could either? It's like contradicting yourself in the same sentence. I know better than to expect anything else from the sad souls on this site, but it's still hard for me to understand how anyone could miss this flaw in their arguments. I'm not saying this guy is right, but if he can have his facts this wrong while being an industry insider, and you get so mad about it you have to go on this PR bash mission, what make ya'll so sure you're right? It's like a parent yelling at their child for being too loud. "STOP SCREAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Where in the article did he blame sony. In fact penello said he is not disparaging sony in any way. He is trying to clear up misinformation about the two consoles.
Yes he is p.r, but every company has p.r, you guys should just relax, will only time will time, and that is about two and a half months time.
Maybe the guy is thinking it's the 1990's, but sound cards don't offload much of anything anymore.
There USED to be a time where having a sound card would make a difference, those days have long since past. 1/20th of a percent, of a single core in a multi-core setup...woo hoo.
Most people would realize that the more hoops you make developers go through, the less likely devs will jump through them. It's going to be more difficult and time consuming to code games for the Xbox One. Unless the dev takes the time, and the time to do it well, they are severely crippled with bandwidth on the xbox one. They're asking all the devs to put significantly more time coding a game just to be able to access the lionshare of it's bandwidth.
Some won't bother with it and just code for the DDR3 bandwidth, some won't be able to, some won't do it well. The Xbox One eSRAM is like PS3's cell. Not quite the complexity, but extra work that will negatively impact games when it doesn't go as planned on most games whereas the PS4 game bypasses the entire problem and all of this focus can go to other areas.
What most people should expect is the GDDR5 bandwidth will easily and always be available whereas it's a real chore and a bunch of extra legwork to maybe achieve a similar level or so bandwidth.
So imagine if the 360 had the PS3's cell coding problem, and the PS3 had the ease of coding of the 360. The answer would be Uncharted 3 and TLOU, etc type games would be the norm for the PS3, and the 360's games would look like CoD 24/7.
Because that's the setup you basically have now. Easier and stronger, versus harder and weaker (and more expensive).
"I see what you're saying and I agree with you, what I don't understand is how this guy gets called out because he doesn't know all the details of the machines, but you have the full picture and all the details?"
I was about to say this. Penello is the guy to know more than anyone on this forum. Yet people on this forum knows more and is convinced the PS4 is sooo much more powerful taking it as truth when the news swing in that direction!
Once the opposite is said from a well known source that the Xbox One holds it's own, it is disproven by simply saying nobody, but Sony knows what is in their console.
Oh, the irony!!!
Sounds more like you read the Vulcan's argument however you want .
Not getting in the middle on who's right or not , i have of course my opinion but it's getting silly and pointless .
However Vulcan was telling you "At a very basic level he says their CPU is faster- does he know PS4's clockspeeds? He said he doesn't, only a couple weeks back."
Vulcan says that when convenient he doesnt know the specs , and yet claim some advantage over an hardware , he just said he doesnt know about .
That's not convincing at all .
"Penello is the guy to know more than anyone on this forum."
Pure B.S there . He himself backed into a corner had to admits he'll need to check some infos and come back at some folks later on , with or without support from tech staff .
He's a PR staff , and a beotian when it comes to those subjects , compared to a select few posters that are massively into such tech ... because of their passion or work .
While its still a fanboy haven for all factions . Stop trying to pass gaf as a comedy central like n4g . It's a community with its issues , but also professionnals from various fields . Plenty are easily pro xbox , or vastly prefer a PC as well , there just isnt no easy way to pull some wool and PR BS over their eyes .
It nonone knows these specs from sony then where are the fanbiys getting there specs?
Unfortunately JamieL you fell into the trap of not reading what I wrote correctly. Why try and spin my comment to say that I don't know everything about the machine and use that as an argument against me when all I did was clearly outline the points where his post was flawed, and we KNOW it to be flawed.
I don't know PS4's clocks for sure, do you? Neither does Penello as HE said as much.
Yet here he is claiming more CPU performance. You think that ISN'T something he should be criticised for???? You think we should just nod and agree and not point out a rather horrible flaw in his reasoning????
If he can't get his own stats right about memory bandwidth? Thats not a mystery, or secret voodoo spec, thats just simple maths he failed to cite correctly.
This is just one example of his 'work' on Neogaf.
I can't help it if you can't see the wood from the trees, Penello claimed a bunch of stuff he either admitted he knows nothing about or is KNOWN to be inaccurate (See the difference much??) and thus opens himself up to major criticism from me (and a host of people on Neogaf.)
I have no clue why you think what I wrote was hypocritical. If you can point out what I specifically said that claims something about the machine in this post or something that is factually incorrect then go nuts and point it out.
Unfortunately for you, there was nothing there. At least read replies properly instead of inventing something in your mind.
There is damn good reason to rubbish what he has claimed, between the FACT that he admitted to not knowing about Sony's hardware and the FACT that he writes incorrect bandwidth figures you'll still lap up what he says?
More fool you.
Ok vulcanproject I guess I "misread" this,
"because he knows much more about Sony's custom chipset with its secondary processor like he apparently knows their finalized clocks"
You know what it is? Sure he doesn't know that, but you don't know it either, and you don't "know" what exactly the XB1's parts are capable of. None of us do.
Then this "He can't say if the eSRAM can ALWAYS read/write simultaneously. It probably can't." Biggest part and I do agree you kind of covered your ass with "It probably can't". You don't KNOW it can't, but the rest of your tone sure seems to be so positive about itself.
This is my point; I don't care if everything out of his mouth is wrong. He doesn't have all the facts period. I get that, but none of us know everything about both systems, and we won't until they both come out and SHOW us what they can do. I just don't see how anyone can bash him for coming with talk when he doesn't have all/the right facts, when they come with the same PR bull$hit from the other side like they have all the facts. Like I said it's HYPOCRITICAL, no matter how much lipstick you put on that pig.
"You know what it is? Sure he doesn't know that, but you don't know it either, and you don't "know" what exactly the XB1's parts are capable of. None of us do. "
Errr wasn't that the POINT OF MY POST? Glad you finally read it.
Penello can be an engineering genius who knows every transistor on Xbox one, but when he admits to not knowing PS4's CPU or sound capabilities but then claims Xbone is better and faster there we should sit there and lap that up???
Its not hypocritical if I 'cover myself.' Thats called understanding I can't know all the facts and edging on the side of caution, something he didn't do. I wasn't the one claiming a bunch of nonsense like Penello so easily dismantled.
I admitted I don't know PS4's CPU clockspeeds much as Penello doesn't, but I wasn't the one claiming Xbox one's CPU is faster than PS4's.
No, it was him claiming things he admits to not knowing. He was the one opening himself up to criticism if he was wrong, not me.
Thats because he is clearly a mouthpiece and not a technical guy and they weren't his notes.
How on earth you think thats hypocritical of me? Please, go get yourself a dictionary and look it up. Read carefully the finer points of the English language. Then come and explain again.
You are saying we can't bash him even if he doesn't know the facts and makes spurious claims because nobody knows everything about the systems.
I doubt anyone can ever know everything about these systems. At what point are we allowed to criticise someone?
So you're saying he should be protected because of his ignorance even when he puts out horribly flawed claims? Again. More fool you.
God forbid you claiming all earth's oceans are red with purple stripes and me saying hang on, they aren't.
No doubt I'll be accused of 'hypocrisy' because I can't possibly know everything about the oceans. Kinda besides the point huh?
@Septic Fair enough to a point, but he should never have gone there in the first place as he has about as much technical understanding of those figures as all the armchair techsperts out there - ie very little.
I believe there's a 30%-50% raw graphics processing power disparity between the machines and that there are ways and means for the xbox one to compete and also that 3rd parties will set the bar suitably low to ensure parity. but I base that on the full extent of my technical understanding of both architectures which is likely equivalent to Panello's - ie none whatsoever.
He doesn't know exactly what is inside the Sony box, he has his own engineers giving him numbers and putting that in the context of the specs they have regarding the ps4 - specs that Sony themselves have not publicly divulged for an architecture only Sony engineers have the equivalent understanding of his own experts.
November will come and the truth might come out but before then, whatever further details his experts provide him with, I hope they present it themselves and put in into real-world context with real-time demonstrations not "on-paper" statistics that prove nothing.
I agree. He needs to back up what he's saying or more importantly, the engineers need to step in instead of him.
Well said septic!
Alas it will mostly fall on deaf ears on N4G. We will see the real outcome of what both these consoles equate to on screen when they launch and we have some good exclusive games to look at and compare.
It's already ingrained into the Sony masses that they are the superior race, not even factual information could change the stubborn minds to look at things with an open mind.
I'm glad penello has taken the time to clarify these points.
He hasn't clarified anything, he made some claims that were questioned with regards to their accuracy, to which he effectively replied "wait there whilst I go and ask someone who knows what they're talking about". Please, follow links in future before calling something a "fact".
You criticize people for doing exactly what you yourself do!
@2cents That's unfair. It's not about being a "superior race" it's about getting to the truth through a set of figures that don't look realistic - which makes the Microsoft PR guy Panello look like he's attempting to pull the wool over people's eyes.
You can't blame Sony and ps4 fans for believing their chosen format is more powerful when the numbers we've had over the past 6 months point to exactly that, when developers give little hints to the same conclusion and then they see Panello offering "iffy" unrealistic bandwidth figures in an attempt to prove otherwise.
In his own words on GAF, he asked if a single-figure frame rate disadvantage for Xbox One would be enough to justify his claims. He states that 50% is not the way it is, that's it's much closer, but he's also asking to be let off the hook if DF find there's up to a 9fps shortfall between One and ps4... now if a game is targeting 30fps, that's potentially a huge difference of one third.
He can't really clarify anything because he's using the leaked specs which quite accurate for both consoles but from what we have seen MS has done improves in terms of upclocks to GPU/CPU and their API. He doesn't know what changes could have been made on Sony's side since the leak so he can't be truly sure that Sony don't have some *secret sauce* that could make the upclocks made to XB1 recently irrelevant. Just like we don't know all the details on XB1.
So the only people that can clarify anything are thrid-party devs that work on both hardware because there is no bias.
It's not just N4G but other tech sites are stating that what Albert is saying is not true. To be honest the techies are ripping his bullet points apart.
This guy is just a talking head like Larry. If anything the deaf ears are xbone fans.
All the facts are laid out in front of you all, yet you still believe otherwise.
M$ have been caught lying about the xbone over and over, but you all still say otherwise.
It's fine that xbone is your console of choice, but don't sit here and say that the Sony masses are not looking at the factual information.
The factual information states that PS4 is more powerful. That's a fact.
Xbone fans are the stubborn ones.
The one thing about GAF is that many people on the site are tech experts, engineers, etc.
So, you may want to do yourself a favor before taking what Penello has to say at face value, because they are shredding him on the GAF thread and totally deconstructing the post that he put on there. I am not a techie, and I defer to those who have knowledge that I don't. The VAST MAJORITY on GAF are ripping this apart and explaining why Penello is wrong, misleading and being completely disingenuous (or flat out lying).
I don't know how this all turns out in regard to the games, but unless you (and some of the other MS apologists on this site) are engineers and can explain how Penello is right, I suggest you check out the GAF thread...
Seriously it is a good read.
Just calm it down man, I commented on penello's first statement, not the 26 pages of too and fro that came after, as the article posted here is about that particular comment. Its not the end all and be all to this console war, no, its a statement to highlight that the xbox is not as weak as many people like to make out, and that some respect should be given to the talented people who have worked to develop the xbox one. Ive never once said that the xbox is more powerful, or that it is a better console so I dont know what your accusing me of.
There is nothing fair about what has happened since feb. I seem to have to say this all the time, I am a sony supporter just as I am an xbox supporter. Bottom line, Sony is sitting pretty and doesnt require any type of defence as they are clearly superior in their specifications. The issue here is that the majority of Sony supporters go to great lenghts to rubbish anything to do with xbox. Which is why we are in a situation where even MS has taken to comment on places like neogaf and reddit to just try to reduce the amount of crap that is being touted as solid fact. I dont for one second claim I know the ins and outs of the consoles, I can only go on what I read, and most of it is utter shite. So I have commented that its nice to hear from penello trying to clarify some information, but its by no means the whole story.
That is very true, and I agree with what you say. which is why in my original comment I also stated "We will see the real outcome of what both these consoles equate to on screen when they launch and we have some good exclusive games to look at and compare." Im only interested in knowing the truth, and either way I know the PS4 will be more powerful, the question is by how much and is the difference noticeable enough to declare a clear and unchallengeable winner. I dont mind the results as im getting both, but its still nice to know.
Consoles are my console of choice. BOTH! not one. I own PSX, PS2, PS3, Vita, Xbox, Xbox 360, N64, Wii, DS, 3DS, Crazy Powerful PC built by myself, I am a gamer by the very definition of the word. I dont like the attitude of the hardcore fanboys on both sides, they make it hard to be happy about this new generation.
Its plain and simple that the xbox is not as powerful as the PS4. But when we are playing these consoles at home in a few months, the last thing we are going to be thinking about is memory bandwidth and compute units, sheesh. We are going to be game-gasming! Thats what its all about isnt it?
I can only make comments on my own personal experience of the last few months and for me, I have seen a vicious attack on all things Xbox, and I have had some unbelievably nast PM's from Sony Twats, just for expressing some excitement for the xbox. Yet I have also made many positive comments about the PS4 and not a single attack has come my way from any Xbots. So my personal experience has shown that the Sony fanboys (not fans)are far more aggressive and vile in nature, and unfortunately give many of you guys a bad name, which isnt right. Whats worse is though, if you choose to defend those idiots, because then its very hard to separate the fans from the fanboys.
Again, just to clarify, I have no hate or malice towards Sony, or fans that have personal preference towards only them. same with the xbox side of things.
Is that how you look at it. We are a race of people now?? Really?? Sony has a race of people now?
What are they called? The Sonians??
Bravo!!! If I could give you ten bubbles, I would. Nearly everything you said was very similar to my own feelings and what I have experienced.
I'm a PC guy mostly, but I own a PS3 and an Xbox 360 (and my girlfriend owns a Wii). Even though I mostly game on the PC and the PS3 is my most played console, I still find myself often defending the 360 and Wii simply due to the overwhelming pro-Sony bias (and bashing of everything else) that plagues this site and others.
If I say something positive about a Sony console or game I have almost never been attacked by a Nintendo or Xbox fanboy. On the other hand if I say something positive about the PC, Xbox, or Wii I am almost always attacked by Sony fanboys and told how much better the Sony console and games are.
The bias and irrationality is astounding. And frankly I'm getting tired of all the Microsoft and Xbox One bashing, even though I currently don't plan to get an Xbox One. It's completely out of proportion and is largely fueled by rampant fanboyism.
The arrogance Sony fanboys exude with regard to the PS4 specs is unjustified. Past Sony consoles have never been the most powerful consoles of their respective generations. PS1 and PS2 were weaker than competing consoles, and PS3 was more or less tied with Xbox 360. And compared to high end PCs the PS4 is always going to be way behind. I don't know why they think the PS4 specs suddenly make everything else suck.
Anyway, I really like the PS3 and the PS4 looks even better. I just wish Sony fanboys weren't such overzealous jerks (not all, but many). They are poisoning the gaming landscape. I almost can't stand to go to gaming sites any more.
It sometimes makes me wish someone like Apple would make a console and smash the Playstation brand into oblivion just to see these fanboys get their comeuppance, but that fantasy passes as I think about how much I have enjoyed my PS1, PS2 and PS3. Sony does a lot of good in the gaming industry and the PS4 is going to be fantastic. Too bad I can't say the same thing for much of the fanbase.
I agree Septic and well put. The raw numbers favor Sony but there is more to both machines than we yet know so to make a pre judgement based on the limited facts available is illogical. I'm keeping an open mind on both machines capabilities.
And the thing is he's not being a cock about it or dissing Sony, he's just trying to explain in a professional way that we shouldn't jump to conclusions. I actually like the fact that he has been so approachable especially in the face of some of the morons who probably grief him based on ignorance and an incomplete set of facts.
None of us KNOW for sure yet so lets not be bell ends about it (allformats). Guys like Cerny and Penello are doing us a service in talking so much. Yes they are both representing competing products but they do it with respect. I don't think hes trying to make X1 look better just educate the mob that you should wait and see.
If he is a liar then that will come out when the consoles launch and they are examined. To call him or Cerny or anyone a liar at this stage is irrational and leaves yourself open to ridicule should they be proven right.
GAF, N4G and many other sites are full of people who are too ready to judge, insult and condemn anyone who considers an alternative viewpoint or that might want to have an open mind until the evidence is fully presented. I sometimes wonder why any of these execs bother for all the good it does them.
I myself will take everything that comes out of both companies on advisement until their claims are proven, but I won't chastise them for it.
As an older gamer I have seen many examples of bluff, over promising and down right fabrication about products. Sony and MS are both guilty of this historically. Perhaps some of the die hard Sony and MS fans on here should step back and remember that..
totally agree with you and septic...let the consoles come out so we can see the games and judge.i believe the games will speak for themselves..... but im curious to see what the top graphics engineers have to say about this....that aside i actually like the guy...mehdi and larry dont care anymore about all this bias and ignorant comments...people need to learn patience.........i just wanna play games.
sorry double post...
A reasonable response that sadly most can't or won't embrace due to a certain mindset that persists on sites of like N4G.
Yeah, but Id wish microsoft would just shut up, putting out all these interviews and tweets just confirms peoples rumors and that microsoft is worried about it, if they would just keep quiet then people could just speculate all day until the consoles come out because as it stands xbox has the best looking game with rise
I dont like people trying to confuse people with all this mumbo jumbo
consumers bad mouth a product before launch to the point where it's getting out of hand and could affect sales. Because the "casual" user 'hears' "50% more powerful" while 'seeing' a $100 cheaper product and you want that company to stay quiet about it 'until' it comes out?
Dat logic
casual users dont browse n4g for articles or the internet in general for articles on consoles, The only users who do that are the ones who already know which console they are getting or want to get
Dat Blaze logic
Sorry Septic but it's just a repeat of what Nelson tried to do in the beginning of last gen:
Sounding "frank" and "down to earth" is all well and good but the hardware differences are obvious.
Penello is toeing the line for his company, doing what he's supposed to do, but we have the ability to think for ourselves.
Do you know why he's adding the two together in this case? This came not from Albert but from one of the top engineers involved in making the Xbox One.
Here's an amazing thought for you brainiacs. What if both memory pools can send data to the GPU at the same time? The diagrams from Hotchipz would appear to support this.
I think a lot of people seem to forget this is a highly CUSTOMized piece of hardware and is not your PC at home. The same rules don't apply. Despite what people think, no you do not know more about how this hardware works than the people that made it.
No it isn't... You choose to believe fanboy logic as if they are engineers..
The guy says something people don't like... So people try to spin it as lies.. Hes naturally in less of a position to know wtf he's talking about then some kids on n4g or gaf
Hes not saying anything abouy ps4.. Hes explaing how people are confused about how these systems operate.. Thanks to the smear campaign some have taken upon themselves to pursue
"What if both memory pools can send data to the GPU at the same time?"
Seriously dude...just STOP! You're saying that the small amount of fast eSRAM alongside the DDR3 will enable the DDR3 to achieved 200+ Gbps speed due to optimization? There's no optimization in the world that can increase the speed of DDR3 to that level, not even overclocking.
It's like setting up SLi or crossfire or pc RAM. You don't pair the weaker card with a strong card as it's a waste of the power available on the stronger card. Simply said... in terms of hardware performance, 1+2 =/= 3!


text:
WASHINGTON (AP) — Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton says the FBI is "following some very promising leads and putting together cases" as they investigate the Sept. 11 attack on the diplomatic mission in Benghazi that killed the U.S. ambassador to Libya and three other Americans.
Clinton told lawmakers on Wednesday that she had gotten an update on the probe in recent days from FBI Director Robert Mueller, who returned from a trip to Libya last week. She said the FBI is now trying to determine "how best to respond" to the leads they have.
But Clinton vowed that those responsible for the attack would be brought to justice even if it takes some time.
"We will respond," she said.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
…back in the world at large, extremists claiming to represent al Qaeda have declared "a bloody war" on Europe, saying that their first objective will be to topple Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi. So now I guess we'll find out whether the Italian voters are more courageous and steadfast than their Spanish counterparts.
Both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan appear to be moving in the direction of creating an all-Muslim military force to fight the terrorists in Iraq. A very good thing, if it happens.
And Germany has expressed "great concern" over Iran's ongoing efforts to develop nuclear weapons:
[A]n intelligence report circulated by diplomats this week alleges Iranian officials were caught negotiating with a Russian company over the procurement of a substance that can boost nuclear explosions in atomic weapons.
It would be nice if there were any possibility that German concern could lead to German action, especially in view of the fact that, as noted above, war has just been declared on Europe by terrorists supported by the Iranian mullahs. But there is no such prospect. Which brings us back, I guess, to the speeches last night and the excruciatingly close race for the American presidency. Because there is no way that a Kerry administration is going to do anything effective about Iran.


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The Republican presidential primary in South Carolina captures the news, but too little attention has been paid to the state itself. South Carolina reflects the triumph of Dr. Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement: Its schools are desegregated; its public facilities open to all, its economy benefits from foreign investment; its governor is a female Asian-American.
But South Carolina also reflects the limits of that victory and the continuing reaction against it. South Carolina shows how far we have to go.
Last month, the Justice Department, enforcing the Voting Rights Act, rejected as discriminatory South Carolina's efforts to suppress the vote by requiring voters to show a driver's license or other limited official forms of photo ID. Republicans are pushing these laws in states across the country. They claim they are needed to deter voting fraud, but offer no evidence of its existence. In fact, the laws will disproportionately impact African Americans, Latinos and poor people -- who are less likely to have a driver's license. In South Carolina, the DOJ concluded minority voters would be 20 percent more likely to be disenfranchised than white voters. Now, South Carolina plans to appeal the decision, seeking a Supreme Court decision overturning parts of the Voting Rights Act, Dr. King's proudest triumph.
An anti-union state, South Carolina adds to the "race to the bottom" by offering employers cheap captive prison labor. The largest dairy farm in the state will be in a prison. The state aggressively markets its Prison Industries program to private employers, offering to "lease" prisoners or allow businesses to open branches within prison gates.
According to the state Department of Corrections, in one program, prisoners making desks and other office equipment for public agencies can make "a wage of up to 35 cents an hour." In another program, the state negotiates with private customers, and prisoners earn from 35 cents to $1.80 an hour. And in the Prison Industry Enterprise Program, inmates produce goods for private employers ranging from apparel to cable wires. They are supposed to be paid the "prevailing wage," and to not compete with private workers. They are allegedly paid from $5.15 to $10 per hour, but must pay for their "room and board," and have up to 20 percent of their wages confiscated to repay their victims.
The next time you attend a graduation, remember that the gowns worn by the graduates are likely to have been made by South Carolina prison labor. The main gown plant of Jostens, a Fortune 400 company that is the largest manufacturer of graduation gowns in the country, is in Laurens, about 25 miles from the Leath Correctional Facility, a 350-bed prison for women.
According to Josh Levine in a 1999 Perspective magazine article, electronic-cable supplier Escod Industries abandoned plans for a facility in Mexico and moved to South Carolina. The wages of South Carolina prisoners undercut those of Mexican sweatshop workers, and the state offered to subsidize equipment and industrial space.
South Carolina is a leader in this area, but not alone. The U.S. locks up more than 2 million people, more than any nation in the world. One in 48 working-age men is behind bars. A disproportionate number -- 40 percent -- are African Americans. As Michelle Alexander reported in her book, The New Jim Crow, more black men are in prison or jail, on probation or parole than were in slavery in the 1850s.
The arc of history, Dr. King argued, is long but it bends towards justice. But as South Carolina illustrates, that bending requires constant struggle. We've come so far, but we've a long way to go.


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It's two months shy of the two-year anniversary of the trade-deadline-day deal Boston Bruins general manager Peter Chiarelli made to acquire defenseman Dennis Wideman from St. Louis for forward Brad Boyes.
Tonight, for the first since that trade, Wideman will get the chance to skate against his former team in his old home arena, the Scottrade Center, when the Bruins square off with the Blues.
"I think it'll be fun. It'll be a little bit exciting there," Wideman told thebruinsblog.net before the Bruins left for St. Louis. "I still have some people there I keep in contact with. It'll be good to get back there. But it'll be nice going in there."
The deal was much-maligned by the media, including this reporter, when it was made. But it truly has turned into a win-win situation for both clubs, as the Bruins picked up a defenseman who has turned into the kind of No. 2 a club built around a left defenseman like Zdeno Chara needs. And Boyes has flourished since Day One with St. Louis after struggling to get going with Boston prior to the deal.
In 113 regular-season games with the Bruins, Wideman has posted 21-37-58 offensive totals (including 7-12-19 stats this season) with a plus-minus of plus-24. In a Blues uniform, Boyes (the club's leading scorer this season with 16-15-31 totals) has accumulated 63-45-108 totals in 133 games.
One could argue the Bruins have gotten the better of the deal because they've also reached the playoffs while St. Louis has been left out. And a puck-moving defenseman that can put up numbers like Wideman has is generally the most valuable asset. But Wideman doesn't look at it that way, nor does he plan on gloating about his advanced development when he returns to St. Louis.
"They made a trade at the time that worked out pretty good for both sides. Boysie's playing really well for them and scoring a whack load of goals and that's what they needed," he said. "They had an abundance of defensemen, so I came here and he went there."


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David Vitter to hold town hall meeting in Madisonville March 26
David Vitter to hold town hall meeting in Madisonville March 26
MADISONVILLE, La. —
U.S. Sen. David Vitter will hold a town hall meeting March 26.
The event at the Madisonville Community Center (403 St. Francis Street) from 1:30 p.m. to 2:30 p.m. is intended for Louisiana's junior senator to hear from his constitutions in St. Tammany Parish.
"Meeting with Louisianians and visiting communities across the state is one of the most important parts of my job," said Vitter in a news release. "It allows me to hear about the issues most important to people in Louisiana. I'm looking forward to visiting with folks and discussing my efforts to bring Louisiana common sense to Washington, reform the culture of runaway federal spending, and develop positive solutions to get our economy going again."


text:
Climate Variability and Change
Fact Sheet 2007-3108
- By:
- U.S. Geological Survey
- More information: USGS Index Page (html)
- Download citation as: RIS | Dublin Core
AbstractIn 2007, the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) developed a science strategy outlining the major natural science issues facing the Nation in the next decade. The science strategy consists of six science directions of critical importance, focusing on areas where natural science can make a substantial contribution to the well-being of the Nation and the world. This fact sheet focuses on climate variability and change and how USGS research can strengthen the Nation with information needed to meet the challenges of the 21st century.
Additional publication details
- Publication type:
- Report
- Publication Subtype:
- USGS Numbered Series
- Title:
- Climate Variability and Change
- Series title:
- Fact Sheet
- Series number:
- 2007-3108
- 10.3133/fs20073108
- Edition:
- -
- Year Published:
- 2007
- Language:
- Publisher:
- Geological Survey (U.S.)
- Contributing office(s):
- U.S. Geological Survey
- Description:
- 2 p.
- Larger Work Type:
- Report
- Larger Work Subtype:
- USGS Numbered Series
- Larger Work Title:
- Facing Tomorrow's Challenges: USGS Science in the Decade 2007-2017


text:
Category archives for zorse
The accidental product of a study abroad program in Italy, Eclyse is a visually fascinating example of mixed genetic material. Eclyse's mother was a zebra living at a German safari park. When she was sent on loan to Italy, she was allowed to roam free in an enclosure with both horses and zebras. Upon her…


text:
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text:
Freehold-based Monmouth Real Estate Investment Corp. announced Thursday its acquisition of two properties totaling more than $10 million and 100,000 square feet.
According to the announcement, the first is a 12.2-acre, 99,102-square-foot industrial building located in Green Bay, Wis., at a purchase price of $6.57 million.
The company also announced the acquisition of a 7.5-acre, 60,398-square-foot industrial building located in Rochester, Minn., at a purchase price of $5.27 million. Both properties are net leased for 10 years to FedEx Ground Package System Inc.


text:
Courtesy photo
Tuesday, Nov. 20, 2012 | 2:29 p.m.
During a quickie visit to New York last week, I had the opportunity to meet Nicole "Coco" Austin, of "Ice Loves Coco" notoriety and the soon-to-be Bo Peep character in "Peepshow" at Planet Hollywood.
The initial vibe, or, if you will, first impression from Coco is that she is a remarkably sweet and unassuming person. I didn't know what to expect, honestly, but she was very warm and forthcoming during a rehearsal at Ripley-Grier Studios in Manhattan, not too far a walk from the Broadway theaters showcasing such musicals as "Phantom of the Opera," "Golden Boy" and "Rock of Ages," the latter at Helen Hayes Theater with a version bound for Palazzo next month.
Coco was working with choreographer and director Jerry Mitchell, choreographer Nick Kenkel and former "Peepshow" dance captain and swing performer Paula Caselton. If you want to be trained to perform something onstage, there is no more qualified group from whom to learn.
Impressively curvaceous, Coco also moves really well, having attended dance school from when she was a little girl through age 15. This is a handy skill, as a new scene is being added to "Peepshow" to showcase Coco's dance training. Being dropped is the spider-web scene, added to the show for outgoing Bo Peep Holly Madison as the first scene in which she appeared topless (in the show).
The new number that Coco, Mitchell, Kenkel and Caselton have been rehearsing is the same broad-ranging scene that was fronted by current Bo Peep (temporarily, as Coco preps for the show) Angel Porrino in April's "Broadway Bares" benefit show at Planet Hollywood.
"I was wondering if I would be able to do everything I used to do because, as a little girl, you are doing the flips and the turns and the leaps, and you are very flexible, right?" Coco said during a break in rehearsals Friday morning. "But it is like riding a bike. You always remember. I bounced right back in -- the first steps that they gave me, I went back into dance mode."
Mitchell was happily surprised that Coco dropped into the splits during her first rehearsal (something that is far more astonishing to, say, a columnist than a professional dancer, but still …) and was interested in making a change to the show beyond just a shakeup to the cast. Coco was fine with that.
"(The producers) told me right away they wanted to add a scene because they knew my dance experience," she said. "They had said, 'If you accept this, we want to build it around you." … They want Bo Peep to dance and do new numbers and make it fresh. As soon as they told me that, I was like, 'Yes! I love that!'
An "Ice Loves Coco" crew has been filming Coco and the dance masters during rehearsals in New York and is focusing on her work in Las Vegas beginning next week. The run-up to her opening night in "Peepshow" will cap the current season of the E! Network series in December. She debuts Dec. 3, and more from this bubbly interview with the onetime Henderson resident (true) will be posted over the next few days.
Be on alert for such terms as "booty," "boobs" and "pierced nipples."
Follow John Katsilometes on Twitter at Twitter.com/JohnnyKats. Also, follow "Kats With the Dish" at Twitter.com/KatsWiththeDish.


text:
OLPC Pakistan, Report 2
From OLPC
How OLPC impacted a slum area kid: case of Khayal Mohammad
By: Salman Minhas and Usman/Sohaib/Dhok Sarang
May 10, 2008
"My name is Khayal Mohammad, I am 14 yrs old and I belong to Afghanistan. Due to the poor economic conditions in Afghanistan, we had to migrate to our neighbor country Pakistan, five months ago. As we are not financially strong, we chose Rawalpindi's slum area for our living and rented house there.
To battle the financial crisis of my family, I began to work. I got up at 4 am and went to a near-by fruits and vegetable market and sell fruits there. I continued this for sometime, till I found a local tailor who needed an assistant, so I also joined him as an assistant and began learning how to tailor clothes. I work in both the market and the tailor shop to earn money for the family and usually return from work at 10 pm. This is my daily routine.
In this slum area, I got some information about an evening school for poor Afghan Refugees, so I went there in order to get full information. In Afghanistan I had studied till the 5th grade and after having a discussion with the principal of the school, I was given admission in 6th grade here in this school. I got admission in the school, and attend classes from s2:00 pm to 5:00 pm daily.
My first day of school was very interesting. There were many similarities to my school in Baghlan, Afghanistan, but also many things were different. It was new environment with new teachers, new methods of teaching. I had heard that teachers discipline kids using big sticks just like the schools in my home country. And some teacher's did beat the naughty students, but not so cruelly than those in my homeland!!! It was much better than my previous school.
In Afghanistan, I had a hobby: Painting. I used to draw and paint. I started drawing with pencils and after some time I began using paint to add colors. Soon my brushes became my best friend. I used my free time involved with brushes, papers and colors. In Afghanistan, it was hard to arrange brushes and paper for painting, but I used to save some money from my earning.
Since I have come to Pakistan, I have been really very busy in helping my family financially. Joining the school has made me busier, because I need to do my homework and revise the lessons studied in school, even though I have had no time to paint, my passion and longing for painting is very much still alive.
One month ago, we were studying in our class, and a young afghan man came to our school with another young Pakistani man and went to the principal's room. After about an hour they left and the Principal came out excitedly, gathered all the teachers and students and told us that these two guys had come here and wanted to start some kind of laptop project here in our school and promised to give one laptop to every student of this school. We were really surprised and eagerly began waiting the day when these gentlemen may come again and bring us our laptops. We talked to each other about these laptops and wondered if this news was really real. Everyone was very happy.
As the moment came and the laptops were distributed among us. I was really surprised to see these magical machines. After school I took it to my home and started exploring it. Everyone at home also wanted to know what it was. I found really interesting activities inside it and for the first time in my life I used a computer and was able discover digital writing, painting and music, all in one machine. It was really surprising at first. But then I discovered how to write in it, draw or paint, and listen to music.
I was quickly able to learn how to write a document in the Write Activity, how to draw a table and insert it from the table contents. But mostly, I was really happy to see that this XO had given me a perfect substitute for my brushes and all other painting stuffs in the shape of Paint Activity. It was really interesting. I started on it. At firsts it was very difficult as I was not familiar with it, but I learnt how to draw some basic shapes and then explored it and reached to the point that now I can draw everything in this activity, which I was drawing by hand with my brushes and colors. Sometimes I think it is much better than the brushes and paints because if I make a mistake I can always correct it. Now my illustrations are more colorful than the previous ones. I will still keep using my paints and brushes, but I'm trying to use this paint Activity to express myself. My XO has allowed me to be creative and I can draw anything that my heart desires with it."


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Picture of the Day: Jaycelle in a purple bikini
This rear view of Jaycelle is pretty damn impressive. Let's just say that bikini fits her perfectly.
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Louisville, Ky.– Volunteers will be out in force next week to spring clean Trimble County's highways. The Transportation Cabinet announces that Adopt-a-Highway Spring Clean Week is March 17-23.
"The Kentucky Transportation Cabinet appreciates the efforts of our Adopt-a-Highway volunteers who help keep our highways and communities beautiful and litter free," Transportation Secretary Mike Hancock said.
A Trimble County man was arrested Sunday night, March 9, after Troopers found a meth lab in his home, said Trooper Brad Arterburn spokesman for the Kentucky State Police.
A tip led Troopers with Kentucky State Police Post 5 to the home of 27-year-old Nicholas Hanson, who lives at 9 Cassell Lane in Bedford. Troopers were able to locate an active lab as well as ingredients used to manufacture methamphetamine. Troopers also found approximately two grams of finished product.
The members of Trimble County Fiscal Court voted Monday to approve a maintenance contract with Kone Incorporated for the courthouse elevator. The county had been paying $301.17 each quarter for maintenance. The county agreed to a maintenance upgrade at a cost of $355.92 per quarter with additional coverage provided by the maintenance contractor.
"With the years that it's been there it would probably be wise to move up to that," Trimble County Judge-Executive Jerry Powell said, "because it's not cheap when they come."
By TODD POLLOCK
Special to The Trimble Banner
There is an open seat on the Milton City Commission following the resignation of former Commissioner Tom Mahoney.
The Bedford City Commission voted Monday, Feb. 17, to start sending a sewer bill to the Bedford Fire Department.
Commissioner Darrell Harmon had reported during the government body's January meeting that the department does not pay for sewer or garbage. Harmon said the Kentucky Public Service Commission advised the city several years ago that everyone, including the Morgan Community Center, should be charged for sewer service.
The University of Kentucky has released its Dean›s List for the Fall 2013 semester. A total of 5,887 students were recognized for their outstanding academic performance.
To make a Dean's List in one of the UK colleges, a student must earn a grade point average of 3.6 or higher and must have earned 12 credits or more in that semester, excluding credits earned in pass-fail classes. Some UK colleges require a 3.5 GPA to make the Dean's List.
Trimble County Clerk Tina Browning's office will close for one-half day on Tuesday, Feb. 25, enabling the staff to attend training with the State Board of Elections in Frankfort. The clerk's office will open at 1:30 p.m. on that day.
State Senator Paul Hornback will be at the Trimble County Fiscal Court meeting room Saturday, Feb. 8, from 9 - 10:30 a.m. to brief constituents on the 2014 legislative session. This forum is free and open to all.
Copyright © 2018
The Trimble Banner is your source for local news, sports, events, and information in Trimble County, KY and the surrounding area.


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Get small. Think big.
The evolution of portable technology will empower all of us in exciting new ways. To do more, in more places. To bring our home, or our work, with us wherever we go. Or leave it all behind and escape. The elements of technology are getting smaller, thinner, and lighter than ever before.
Which gives our imaginations the power to think bigger.
We want to explore your vision of the future of moving innovation. Make it artistic and awe-inspiring, but make it something we can all aspire to in the decade to come. Not sci-fi, just amazingly creative.
Show us how your device integrates with the daily human experience in a revolutionary—yet realistic, attainable—way, delivering groundbreaking new thinking on performing everyday tasks. In addition to prizes for best artistic imagery, there will be a special prize for the best product visualization.
The NVART 06 artwork courtesy of Franz Steiner.


text: Baby & Toddler Coupons – Huggies, Johnson & Johnson, PullUps, Little Swimmers and More July 23, 2013 by Erin, The $5 Dinner Mom Leave a Comment Sign up to receive FREE weekly emails with recipes, coupons and other money saving tips right into your inbox. Become a friend on Facebook too AND/OR join the $5 Meal Plan Family and get meal plans delivered to you each week!Share this with all your friends with babies and toddlers! I know I'll be printing the diapers and wipes coupons…and the little Swimmers…we've been at the pool A.LOT. this summer and we need another pack for Austin! Happy Saving!!! A ShareTweetPin0shares


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Oct 18, 2008 at 8:09 am
Jan 19, 2008 at 8:03 am
Great lookin cars and trucks, nice job. 5*
Oct 23, 2007 at 12:45 pm
Great looking stable of Bowties. Good job!
JayMack75 has not posted to his car garage blog.
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from ARGENTINA : +54 115 252 1423
from ITALY : +39 024 032 6417
from MEXICO : +52 554 628 2555
from USA : +1 866 376 7831
from UK : +44 203 318 6993
from SPAIN : +34 911878153
The Urso Hotel & Spa is our wonderful boutique hotel in the magical city of Madrid. This beauty of a hotel contains amazing rooms with numerous modern amenities that will make a stay a delight. The rooms are decorated in a unique way that it will make guests feel like if they were in the comfort of their own home. Many of the rooms provide air conditioning, a private bar, a flat screen TV, an electronic safe, wi-fi access, bathrobe and slippers and a Nespresso machine. Our Urso Hotel & Spa also offers complimentary parking, a fitness center and spa treatments featuring Natura Bissé products. Guests are encouraged to try the area's regional cuisine in a restaurant and afterwards to take a drink at a bar. Moreover, with many shops, boutiques and markets nearby the hotel, the Urso Hotel & Spa is a perfect choice while visiting Madrid.
Catégorie: Epoque Luxury - en savoir plus
The Urso Hotel & Spa is located in Madrid in between the Chamberi neighborhood, the Tribunal area and the Chueca district. The Serrano, the finest shopping district is located 5 minutes from the hotel. The Barceló food market, opening in September 2014, is right on the hotel's doorstep - showcasing the capital's gourmet scene and local delicacies.
Adresse: Mejía Lequerica 8 - Madrid, 28004, Spain - URSO Hotel & Spa Madrid Map
Description: Elegant and comfortable cultivating Urso's idea of beauty and with a separate bath and shower
Occupation: 2 Adultes
Description: Bright and spacious with a separate bath and shower and little must-have tailored to the every need of the discerning guest.
Occupation: 2 Adultes
Description: All with a dedicated lounge area for entertaining or business and a calm masculine décor for sleeping
Occupation: 2 Adultes


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Magna Science Adventure Centre
150 foot high and a third of a mile long, the £46m Lottery funded Millennium Commission project, Magna is the UK's first Science Adventure Centre.
Inside the building, the Magna experience is divided into six parts - Four architecturally stunning and gadget-packed pavilions and two multimedia shows. The pavilions are themed around the four elements.
Earth is an enormous underground cave, reached by low winding tunnels and alleys, the Air pavilion is a 50 foot long 'zeppelin' ominously suspended 100 foot overhead, the Water attractions are housed within a gigantic, elegant steel wave and the Fire pavilion is a charred, darkened area surrounded by lightning storms and walls of fire.
Linked by suspended walkways, scissor lifts, stairs and tunnels, each of the pavilions are jam-packed with challenges and games relating to the elemental themes. Race to move rocks with a JCB or explode a rock face in Earth and target giant water canons in Water.
In Air you can spin on the gyroscopic chair and in Fire you can watch an awe-inspiring 5-metre high fire tornado – these are to name but a few.
The two Multimedia shows are a testament to the spiritual roots of the building. Formerly the famous Templeborough Steelworks, the cavernous shed was once the
workplace of 10,000 steelworkers and the recipient of a telegram from PM Jim Callaghan for its services to the industry. These shows bring to life the sounds, sights and intense atmosphere that earned Templeborough the nickname – 'The Anvil of South Yorkshire'.
The first show is 'The Face Of Steel' a 100 foot high floor-to-ceiling 3-D collection of projected film and imagery, this is the largest multi-media display in the UK. Climb amongst the screens and sounds to reach the main walkway and access to the pavilions within heart of the building.
The second show – 'The Big Melt' is undoubtedly one of Magna's most breathtaking features. Heard and seen from almost every part of the building, the show is set around the original Arc furnace, unused since the days of Sheffield's booming steel industry. In a pyrotechnic and audio display powerful enough to shake everything underfoot and overhead, the steel making process is perfectly re-created (except for the absence of thousands of tons of molten steel of course and the melting temperatures!).
Venue Type:
Science centre
10am-5pm Daily (Check website for seasonal closure dates)
Closed: Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Years Day
Please see our website for admission charges: www.visitmagna.co.uk
Additional info
Please visit our website at www.visitmagna.co.uk for up to date lists of special events and temporary exibitions. Corporate hire is also avalable, information on request.
Collection details
Architecture, Aviation, Design, Industry, Natural Sciences, Performing Arts, Science and Technology, Social History
Magna Science Adventure Centre
Sheffield Road
South Yorkshire
01709 720002
01709 820092
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Good article and will be interesting to see if Stannard gets some more opportunities. It looked to me as if his chance at Milan-San Remo only came about because Thomas crashed. As you say, riders with power but without tactical nous are quickly found out: e.g. Cancellara in Milan-San Remo a couple of years ago basically towed Gerrans to the finish; he was also marked out of the race in Paris-Roubaix when Van Summeren took his chance to win but put in some phenomenal digs to try to get away.
Ian Stannard showed that he's a classics winner in the making with an impressive show of force and power in the Dwars door Vlaanderen this week. But his futile attacks exposed a tactical naivety, leaving him to finish a disappointing 9th place.
I watched the race with fascination. Team Sky had the numbers on their side, two riders in the break. But they couldn't convert that advantage into a victory. But it was Stannard's display of power that I was taken by. I was reminded by Stannard's efforts of Fabian Cancellara's favoured method of winning bike races: effortlessly riding away from his rivals and soloing to the finish. Whether it's 5km or 40km out from the finish.
Cancellara first demonstrated his signature move on stage 3 of the 2007 Tour de France into Compiègne. He then repeated it, but from further out from the finish, in the Tour of Flanders and Paris-Roubaix in 2010. Since those victories however, the peloton have given him little rope, and his success rate has dropped off significantly and his frustration has risen. Spartacus hasn't given up though, even tried trademark move in this weekeend' Milan-San Remo, to little avail. He finished third.
In the same way, Stannard is at risk of making himself a marked man. He has shown he's dangerously powerful but in showing his form so eagerly, the peloton are going to keep an eye on him. It worked so successfully for Cancellara because of the suprise of his attack and power. Stannard hasn't successfully deployed his power as effectively. The ouctome of Dwars door Vlaanderen could have been so different, and we would now be toasting a British classics winner.
He's a classics winner in the making though. In that race, and 6th at Milan-San Remo, he showed he's not afraid to get serious when the conditions deteriorate. He first showed this in 2010 where he finished 3rd in a wet edition of Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne. He excels in really filthy weather. In fact it's fair to say he probably looks forward to pulling back the curtains on race morning to reveal torrential rain and cold winds. This year's Milan-San Remo was run in horrific conditions, but Stannard looked to be right at home. Such weather is a variable that seems to favour him more than others.
In recent years, we've come to expect nothing but victorious riding from Team Sky. Their ability to control a race is commendable, but while it works brilliantly in a stage race, the same approach just doesn't work in a one day classic. A stage race can be controlled by the numbers, there's a rythm to the race. But so much can happen in a one day race, too many variables to account for and too little time to put wrong errors of judgement or mistakes. Or a puncture. Team Sky's desire to follow a carefully prescribed plan and ride by the numbers, simply doesn't work here.
One day racing is fast and the changes faster still. In a one day race like Flanders or Paris-Roubaix the riders can't rely on instructions relayed from the comfort of the team car. A rider needs to be able to read the road, the cobbles, the rapidly changing dynamics of the race and the composition of the group around him. The racing is fast and hectic, crazy and dangerous, and that calls for an ability to make quick decisions.
It must be said that Sky have enjoyed limited success in the classics. Hayman and Flecha finishing top ten at Roubaix last year, and Geraint Thomas and Flecha finishing top ten in Flanders in 2011. On the back of those races, Sir Dave Brailsford has declared an interest in winning one of the big classics. At early season training camps the squad has been split into grand tour and classics teams, and the classics riders have been working towards these races as their explicit goal. Team Sky are serious about winning a classic and given their past record few would argue against them ticking that box.
Crucially, Stannard isn't a designated team leader, not yet anyway. He's still a working rider for protected riders in the team, like Geraint Thomas at Milan-San Remo. In classics terms, Stannard could be considered to be in the same position Chris Froome when he finished second at the Vuelta a España in 2011. That's when the Sky management sat up and took notice of Froome, and turned him into a team leader. He's on a learning curve.
Stannard is young at 25-years-old. But then Cancellara was just 25 when he won Tour of Flanders in 2006. A win in one of the big races is asking a lot of Stannard, but his current form shows he clearly has the power. In demonstrating his prowess in these races, Stannard is sending a clear message to the management of his team. He no longer wants to pull his team along, he wants to raise his arms in the air and put his name in the record books.
In an interview with road.cc last year, Stannard commented: "I believe I can achieve it and I really want to achieve it but I've got a long way to go before I get anywhere near that. You've really got to learn the races and study them and almost become one with them, so yes, I've got a long way to go."
He's displayed his physical strength. He now just needs to display a tactical strength, and a classics win will surely be his. If not this year, but in the years to come.
David has worked on the road.cc tech team since July 2012. Previously he was editor of Bikemagic.com and before that staff writer at RCUK. He's a seasoned cyclist of all disciplines, from road to mountain biking, touring to cyclo-cross, he only wishes he had time to ride them all. He's mildly competitive, though he'll never admit it, and is a frequent road racer but is too lazy to do really well. He currently resides in the Cotswolds.
13 comments
If he does win a classic it'll probably be Paris-Roubaix where power can still win eg Boonen last year. He'll need a bit of luck though with a disorganised chasing group. Hoping Thomas doesn't
crash again, but presumably Boasson Hagen will be the main one for Gent-Wevelgem or possibly both.
Dave - this is a good piece but when Cancellera rides away from some of the best bike riders in the world, he doesn't do it "effortlessly". It takes a great deal of effort. It might seem effortless, but it is physically impossible for it to be efffortless. It must hack pro riders off massively to see this word used. It's used all the time and it's almost always used wrongly.
I think its a bit unfair to say Stannard is lacking tactically. I'm not sure what else he can do? he doesnt look to have a sprint, so how is he supposed to get rid of other riders? i'd guess Fabian is(or was?) probably capable of accelerating quicker up to warp speed so others couldnt go with him, but Stannard looks like more of a diesel - massive power but not much acceleration? I'd love to be proved wrong though!
Whilst he's not explosive, he's very powerful and he can rip a bunch up with an acceleration up to top speed as shown at the vuelta stage 7 last year where the tactics completely destroyed Ben Swifts chances in the sprint, when Stannard took the front at 2Kms ramped the speed up to 65Kph and ripped the bunch to bits, then when froome took over 1km out he couldn't hold that pace and it bunched leaving swifty too much to do on the run in.
With a turn like this there aren't many who could hold his wheel at the end of a long classic, if he's got the form, which he seems to have, so it does seem to be lack of tactics (as with sagans string of 2nds) coupled with a lack of confidence (which sagan obv doesn't suffer!!!)
It'll come with a combination of luck and maturity, def haven't seen the best of him
see video form 07:00 onwards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYpXgAcsHHs
Whilst he's not explosive, he's very powerful and he can rip a bunch up with an acceleration up to top speed as shown at the vuelta stage 7 last year where the tactics completely destroyed Ben Swifts chances in the sprint, when Stannard took the front at 2Kms ramped the speed up to 65Kph and ripped the bunch to bits, then when froome took over 1km out he couldn't hold that pace and it bunched leaving swifty too much to do on the run in.
With a turn like this there aren't many who could hold his wheel at the end of a long classic, if he's got the form, which he seems to have, so it does seem to be lack of tactics (as with sagans string of 2nds) coupled with a lack of confidence (which sagan obv doesn't suffer!!!)
It'll come with a combination of luck and maturity, def haven't seen the best of him
see video form 07:00 onwards youtube.com/watch?v=UYpXgAcsHHs
He'll certainly be in the mix for the next few years. He's got the power and the motivation, and his own tactical nous will come with experience in the right races.
What he needs to win, rather than just to compete, is a dose of luck and some better tactical riding by his team - he's not going to be a Boonen, Cancellara or a Sagan, who can win by pure superiority, so he needs to right combination of Sky tactics (get a man in the break!) and circumstances to allow him to top the podium.
I agree that he does not appear to have the tactical nowse . Some of that is to do with giving your kick at the right time and some of it a physical capability, and knowing the strengths around you (and also the parcours). His pulls in the San Remo seemed to be ill-judged to my mind. Though he did well to get himself in contention.
Stannard strikes me as a bit of diesel engine. He can pull long and hard, which is the hallmark of classics rider. But for my mind he lacks the top end power for the sort of kick that really pulls a rider off your wheel (if they are marking you, or sucking your wheel).
That said, if everyone is looking the other way (at Sagan, Boonen and Cancellara). He can certainly use that diesel power to pull away. But at the moment he would need the right circumstances to occur.
I must admit that I haven't really seen enough from Geraint Thomas to really appreciate why Sky think he will compete at the top end of cycling in the Classics. His junior title wouldn't seem like enough to prove that ambition. But happy to be proven wrong.


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HENRICO, Va. (AP) — The lone Virgil Goode campaign sign on a stretch of Virginia road was far outnumbered by placards promoting Mitt Romney.
That Goode's sign was there at all in this pivotal state served as a reminder that plucky third-party candidates like the Constitution Party's nominee could muck up the works on Election Day. Libertarian Party candidate Gary Johnson is daring unsatisfied voters to "waste" their vote on him in the 48 states where he's on the ballot.
"I hope to rain on the party. And by that I mean the two parties," Johnson, a former New Mexico governor, told The Associated Press on Saturday as he wrapped up his late swing through battleground Ohio after a college-town push in Colorado. "I hope to rain on it big time."
Some polls have shown Johnson and former Virginia Rep. Goode, two not-long-ago Republicans, as primed to pull down more votes than the difference between President Barack Obama and Romney in critical states such as Colorado, New Mexico, Ohio and Virginia. Experts caution, however, that the overall tightness of the race tends to work against third-party candidates in the end as voters migrate back to the main nominees.
In every presidential campaign, there is talk about a credible alternative emerging to seriously test the Democratic and Republican nominees. Aside from Texas billionaire Ross Perot's 1992 campaign, the phenomenon has seldom panned out in recent times. A much-hyped bid this year to field a bipartisan ticket this time fizzled when Americans Elect, a group that had secured ballot space around the country, retreated in May.
The aim among the 2012 hopefuls seems more about roiling the two-party system.
Johnson is running a late batch of TV ads and airing them during the cheaper off-hours in only a half-dozen states. They urge people to "Be the 5 percent" by getting him to that vote threshold.
"In 2012, do something revolutionary. Cast a protest vote that counts," Johnson says, flashing a peace sign and emphasizing his "Live Free" slogan at the ad's end. He's casting himself as more fiscally conservative than Romney but more socially liberal than Obama.
Goode can't afford TV. His low-budget campaign has meant driving from state to state and staying in discount hotels. He's concentrated mainly on Virginia, where he held state or federal office until his congressional defeat in 2008.
First he was a Democrat, then an independent, and then came over to the GOP for his final House three terms. Goode's presidential run is under the Constitution Party banner. His name is on the ballot in a couple dozen states and he's qualified as a write-in candidate in several more. His overriding issue is a call for a freeze on legal immigration until the U.S. unemployment rate dips below 5 percent.
Republicans in Goode's home state tried unsuccessfully to keep him off the ballot. Some say he could throw the race to Obama if the outcome depends on Virginia's 13 electoral votes and Romney narrowly loses.
Goode displayed a so-what attitude as he prepared this weekend to distribute cards promoting his candidacy. It's an essential but unglamorous task for a candidate who has only four people on his payroll.
"It doesn't matter to me if it's Obama or Romney," said Goode. "Obama has done a bad job and Romney will do a bad job."
Goode and Johnson planned to attend a debate Sunday night in Washington, along with the Green Party's Jill Stein and the Justice Party's Rocky Anderson.
Fittingly, the moderator is consumer watchdog Ralph Nader, the last third-party presidential candidate to send a jolt through a presidential race. Democrats still blame Nader for costing their party the presidency in 2000 because his Green Party candidacy drew nearly 100,000 votes in Florida, which Republican George W. Bush ended up winning by 537 votes over Al Gore. Nader and his supporters dismiss it as whining.