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[Samui hotels]
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Chaweng Buri Resort
14/6 Moo 2, T. Bophut
Koh Samui, Suratthani 84320
Chaweng Beach
Hotel category:
Traveler ratings
Summary of 30 reviews :
Room :
Facilities :
Service :
Location :
Chaweng Buri Resort offers 118 spacious rooms directly on Chaweng Beach. Most rooms are decorated with natural materials like bamboo or wood in southern Thai style architecture and are nestled in a huge tropical garden. No high rise building is disturbing the beautiful views and from the free form swimming pool you can overlook the white powdery sand of Samui's most famous beach. The poolside restaurant serves fresh seafood and Harry's Bar peach and poolside bar is the place for any kind of drinks and snacks. Due the perfect location of Chaweng Buri, on can just step out of the hotel and be in the center of all shopping and nightlife activities.
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Travel reviews for Chaweng Buri Resort
Date of stay:
Feb 26, 2016
Accommodation and facilities:
Book Now there were two types of rooms:Standard Garden Villa and Superior Villa. The rooms are exactly the same, but different cost. Staff explains this remoteness from the beach. And between the rooms (212 and 119), just a few meters.
Reservation service:
Mar 01, 2016
written by:
Grigoriy P
Date of stay:
Oct 26, 2015
Accommodation and facilities:
Have been over 10 times at chaweng beach but never such a bad Resort. First. They give bungalow near streat.. I choosed not cheapest.. This is what they allways do. To get upgrade for more money. I did pay and upgraded to a delux pool villa. Well first time in 15 years no hot water.. 10 days there and only 3 times hot water. All night until 3 am loud.. Can get slep.. There a rooms directly cheaper at arkbar better.. Normally 170 euro each Night cor a poolvilla.. Poor.. Small room.. No door to toilett.. No doors somewhere.. Means going with 2 persons there... You can go together to toilett.. Breakfast very bad. Only toast, some eggs, musli and thai.. No chees.. Nothing.. For that money.. Take other resorts... Better more far away and take taxi..or rent motorbike.. Would be be better.. Beschcomber, green resort or all other cheaper and better.. This.. Sure never again
Reservation service:
Oct 29, 2015
written by:
Date of stay:
Aug 12, 2015
Accommodation and facilities:
I ve been to Samui many times, but this was my first stay at the Chaweng Buri Resort. The resort is lovely, the rooms are beautiful and comfortable, and the help is polite, friendly and helpful. The location is perfect--right on the best part of the beach. It s also a very short walk to the main beach road with all the shopping, bars, cafes, and restaurants. Beach road is busy and noisy there, but you can t hear it from the interior parts of the resort or the beach. The included buffet breakfast was quite good--not stellar--but better than many; however their coffee was terrible. I recommend going just across the beach road to Coffee Club (or Starbucks if you must) for your morning jolt, then coming back to the resort for the breakfast. The hotel restaurant is sub standard with mediocre food and clueless help, but that is not a probelem as there are lots of good restaurants all over Chaweng beach. All in all, my family and I had a wonderful time there and will definitely stay there next time we go to Samui.
Reservation service:
Perfect every time!
Aug 15, 2015
written by:
Christopher George Dabolt
Date of stay:
Apr 10, 2015
Accommodation and facilities:
Great hotel and great location. Staff were so helpful. The only fault which to most people isn t a problem was the wifi in the rooms we were didn t work for 3 days,but when you run a business and need to pay 45 work force while you away it becomes very important
Reservation service:
Apr 13, 2015
written by:
peter richardson
Date of stay:
Apr 08, 2015
Accommodation and facilities:
Great hotel pool and beach. RECOMMENDED!
Reservation service:
Apr 12, 2015
written by:
Oren Sela
Date of stay:
Dec 22, 2014
Accommodation and facilities:
Very good experience at Chaweng Buri Resort! There are two very comfortable beds (one queen size, one single)in our garden view room.The climate was very mild and not many mosquitos as we thought! The hotel staff are very helpful and kind. The hotel is located perfectly, one minute walk to the Central Festival, the big mall and supermarket. We will come back again:)
Reservation service:
Sawadee is very efficient and responsive. A reliable agent. Will use Sawadee again!
Jan 02, 2015
written by:
Jiangqun AN
Date of stay:
May 26, 2014
Accommodation and facilities:
Reservation service:
Very good.
Jun 01, 2014
written by:
Chuanjiu Wang
Date of stay:
May 24, 2014
Accommodation and facilities:
Dommage que l Ark Bar innonde la plage de Chaweng de sa musique (de bruit) beaucoup trop forte. Tout le monde n est pas forcé de supporter cette nuisance.
Reservation service:
Jun 15, 2014
written by:
valageas jean
Date of stay:
May 14, 2014
Accommodation and facilities:
Лучшее расположение. Отличный отель, были уже во второй раз.
Reservation service:
May 17, 2014
written by:
Alexey Volkov
Date of stay:
May 11, 2014
Accommodation and facilities:
Right on the beach whilst still being very close to resturants, bars and shops while the resort remains quite and peaceful. Very friendly and helpful staff.
Reservation service:
Great as usual.
May 18, 2014
written by:
Edward John Gleeson
Date of stay:
Feb 07, 2014
Accommodation and facilities:
Very pleasant hotel resort. Love the place and very convenient for shopping and eating. Will definitely come back again.
Reservation service:
Feb 13, 2014
written by:
Thee Siew Kim
Date of stay:
Sep 21, 2013
Accommodation and facilities:
everything is all right! thanks)
Reservation service:
Sep 24, 2013
written by:
Yulia Vasilyeva
THB ฿ Thailand
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Feel a lush environment as you enter the lobby of
Chaweng Buri Resort
and get enchanted with the preserved nature surrounding the Villas. Chaweng Buri Resort intends to leave an unforgettable experience to everyone planning for a dream holiday or a rejuvenating retreat. Enjoy the vast white sandy beach, which gives a relaxing feeling as the water touches the shore with an inviting sound of the waves and the gentle wind to calm you down.
All these and bunched up with quality family type services, sophisticated gourmet meals, cool laze beach bar and comfortable Thai style accommodations with upscale amenities. Chaweng Buri Resort is delighted to welcome you and help you make the most of your time in Koh Samui, the true beauty of the Land of Smiles!
Chaweng Buri Resort encompasses 117 guest rooms:
:: Standard Garden Villa ::
Standard villa is a bit smaller than Superior villa, nestled in the garden further away from the beach and pool area. Rooms come with one queen-sized bed and one single sofa bed. Bathrooms are appointed with a bathtub and shower, and refreshing herbal bath amenities-plus a wardrobe, a dressing table and a large vanity counter. Other amenities include a satellite T.V., mini bar, international direct dial telephone, private combination safe, complimentary coffee and tea-making facilities.
:: Superior Villa - 56 Units ::
Villas are in the garden area with total size of 38 square meters; these villas are the 2 minutes' walk from the beach and pool areas. Each villa has its own terrace with twin or double bed, bathtub, hot & cold shower with complete toiletries, satellite TV, mini bar (Upon request), International Direct Dial telephone (IDD), private safe, complimentary coffee / tea making facilities and Wi-Fi internet.
:: Deluxe Garden Villa - 41 Units ::
Villas are in the garden area with total size of 38 square meters; these villas are situated near the beach and swimming pool. Each villa has its own terrace, twin or double bed with mosquito net, bathtub, hot & cold shower with complete toiletries, LCD TV, DVD player, mini bar (Upon request), International Direct Dial telephone (IDD), private safe, complimentary coffee / tea making facilities and Wi-Fi internet.
:: Deluxe Sea View Villa ::
38 sq.m. / Close to the beach. Rooms come with one Queen-sized bed and one single sofa bed. Bathrooms are appointed with a bathtub and shower, and refreshing herbal bath amenities plus a wardrobe, a dressing table and a large vanity counter. Other amenities include a satellite T.V., mini bar, International Direct Dial telephone (IDD), private safe and complimentary coffee / tea making facilities.
:: Deluxe Pool Villa ::
All rooms are equipped with
Individual air-conditioning unit
Satellite TV.
IDD telephone
Wi-Fi internet
Daily cleaning
Personal safe
Mini bar (Upon request)
Complimentary coffee / tea making facilities
Hair dryer
Bathroom with bathtub
Hot and cold water
King Prawn Restaurant:
On special day, dine ON THE BEACH and experience a Romantic Set Up with a luxury service, savored delectable cuisines prepared in Asian style, as well as innovative seafood dishes at this poolside restaurant. King Prawn, Restaurant serves fresh seafood, continental, authentic modern Thai cuisine and also a remarkable Beach BBQ. Enjoy a home - style meal or delight yourself with high quality Thai cuisine at King Prawn restaurant. Taste wide array of your favorite food and drinks, from hamburgers and French fries to Pad Thai and Paneang Kai with a glass of fine wine or a local beer.
Open 07.00 am. - 04.00 pm.
T-Bone Restaurant:
Suffice your hunger with American style meal, which recommends wild steak with wide array of meat such as Australian meat and local farm meat. All are carefully selected from a different cut, part of cow tenderloin, rib eye, sirloin, T-bone cut. Fresh seafood is also available from a daily catch, matched with wine from the nest makers around the world.
Open 03.00 pm. - 11.00 pm.
Sabai Dee Massage:
Indulge in a day spa at Sa Bai Dee Massage and discover serene hideaways. The soothing and holistic massage treatments at Sa Bai Dee Massage will enable you to rediscover your strength, and unlock your inner calm.
Be ready and begin experiencing our distinctively soothing day spa treatments that await you for a perfect Samui Thai massage. We warmly invite you to a guided tour of our Thai Traditional massages and oil massage. Clients are given a five-star treatment in an exotic and serene environment where we combine old-age Thai methods with the latest technological advances.
Swimming pool with Jacuzzi and children's step pool.
Traditional Thai massage is available on the beach.
A tour counter is located in the lobby for cars / jeeps / motorcycle rentals, and tours for adventure safaris, elephant treks, waterfalls, great Buddha, etc.
Library, fitness and internet café.
Sabai Dee massage & spa.
Other Services:
Fax services in the lobby, laundry & dry cleaning service, and baby - sitting upon request.
Chaweng Buri
is located in the central of Chaweng beach, only 20 minutes drives from the airport. The resort is built in the most sought and most developed Chaweng Beach area, where young travelers and families alike are attracted with the easy access of day and night life activities through a long streamline of boutique and souvenir shops, bars, food line such as McDonalds, Pizza Company, Starbucks, including nearby medical facilities, and many more, which remain good value for the money.
The beach is approximately 7 Km long, with powdery white sand. It is bordered by dreamy, emerald - blue waters and a coral reef where waves break, leaving the bay quite peaceful. Two small islands are close to the reef - the nearest one can easily be accessed by walking through the shallow waters. The second island, farther out and larger, provides the perfect opportunity to enjoy snorkeling and kayaking.
"Bring shoes if you plan to walk around the islands, as they are made of sharp coral sands."
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In Blowout, which features 2D-style play mechanics and 3D graphics, players assume the role of John "Dutch" Cane, a TransFed Marshall assigned to suppress a clone uprising before it gains momentum. Unbeknownst to Cane, though, the clones have been infected by a Xeno genome virus, turning them into grotesque and highly dangerous aliens. It's up to gamers to eliminate the threat using whatever means necessary. Cane's arsenal includes 20mm Pump-Action Shotgun, 8-meter Flamethrower, Plasma Rifle, Machine Gun, 8'' NailGun as well as a variety of gadgets, like Jetpacks, bounce-shields, and sonic-impulse cannons.
Side-scrollers are an endangered species. Just like rainforests, toucans, and the horned rhino bugus sarcasmumis, the world doesn't seem to find them of much use any more. No matter how many petitions you sign or game publisher CEO BMWs you handcuff yourself to -- that will never change. Side-scrollers will keep dying, and 3D will keep on truckin'. Read More »
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BlowOut at IGN
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OAKLAND – The crowd at Roaracle Arena was the best kind of insane, refusing to sit for long stretches throughout much of the building, turning the building into a cauldron that sent people into the night with their ears buzzing, reaching a level of frenzy that reached the days of the 2007 playoffs here with the "We Believe" team.
This was a release. Obviously within the locker room because the Warriors were underdogs as the No. 6 team in the Western Conference that had just advanced at the expense of No. 3 Denver, but almost everyone had arrived in the last few years. Obviously for management and ownership that had taken public abuse for – oh, heavens! – trading Monta Ellis among other decisions that obviously had zero chance of working out, but the bosses were also new. Their bad memories were measured in months.
Thursday night and the 92-88 win over the Nuggets and the 4-2 series victory was about the years. It obviously would have been a special moment under any circumstances, beating a quality opponent and advancing to the semifinals to face the Spurs beginning Monday. But there is an added celebration for those who had truly endured.
The Warriors are in the West semifinals for the first time since 2007, the electric season of Baron Davis, Stephen Jackson, Don Nelson, the late charge just to make the playoffs and then the stunning upset of the Mavericks in a 1-8 matchup and the kenetic energy inside Oracle. Even when Golden State got eliminated by the Jazz in the semis, it was with one of the NBA's all-time defiance moves, Davis barreling to the rim, taking on the bigger Andrei Kirilenko, putting one arm in Kirilenko's face and hammering down a concussive dunk with the other. It's still amazing the roof stayed on.
That series was six years ago.
"It seems like at least 10," said reserve center Andris Biedrins, the only remaining Warrior from when it seemed so far-fetched to have confidence in making the playoffs and then advancing that "We Believe" became the popular catchphrase. "I swear. It seems so long ago."
The losses.
The ownership change.
The guarantees the Warriors would make the playoffs that turned out to be a bad campaign promise.
The roster changes.
This was just one night, and a reminder of how being Golden State means never being in the clear, the way the Warriors went from being up 18 with 9:11 remaining to needing to desperately hang on while trying to give the game away with 10 fourth-quarter turnovers. Except that it was so much more than just one night.
"It means a lot," Biedrins said. "The team has come a long way. All the changes. The ownership came. We were on the right track. I think now, finally, we realize that we are finally getting the feedback. Fans deserve it, the organization, the city, the Bay Area — at the end of the day, we finally got there."


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ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Greece's parliament has approved measures allowing the government to close or merge roughly one of every five faculties at universities and higher education colleges. The landmark reform triggered student protests and dissent within the coalition government.
Police used tear gas during brief clashes with student protesters outside parliament Thursday, as about 3,500 people joined rallies against the proposed legislation.
Lawmakers voted 148-125 in favor of the reforms that will see the number of higher education faculties cut from 534 to 405, with members of the small, left-wing coalition party voting against the measures.
The government argues the cuts will allow more effective education spending in the crisis-hit country, while the main opposition Syriza party says the changes were "dictated by accountants" without proper academic consultation.


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Rick has spent the last few years developing a music production studio for the purpose of licensing his music through various online sources.
For over 40 years he toured the world with Bill Chase, Marvin Gaye, Bootsy Collins, and George Clinton. Fred Wesley, Maceo Parker, Kush Griffith and Rick were the world famous "Horny Horns". He played electric trumpet with Ray "Doors" Manzarek at the Whiskey A Go Go with guest artist Iggy Pop. In July of 2002 he performed at the ESPY Awards show with Snoop Dogg and Bootsy Collins hosted by Samuel L Jackson. He is on the Brian Culbertson CD "Bringing Back the Funk". One of his co-written works, Lickety Split aired on Saturday Night Live. He has received several RIAA awards.
"Who would have thought that somebody coming out of Wichita would have done things with these kind of people." THE WICHITA EAGLE by Kevin Sheedy
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MSNBC is reporting that all of the New York housewives including Kelly Bensimon will be returning for the 3rd season.
The housewives are said to have signed a new deal that will be paying each of them close to $30,000 per episode. Guess it really does pay to be an ass on national television uh? The same article goes on to say the husbands who get paid nothing, are also trying to negotiate a salary for themselves.
In other news, someone posted this genius spoof of the Reunion show. You have to see this!


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From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galle_fort
Galle is located at the extreme southwest corner of the island, where the shoreline turns east towards Matara and Tangalle. The Fort, like most of the forts in Sri Lanka, is built on a small peninsula, belonging to the sea as much as to the land. There are treacherous rocks in the water near the fort, and a treacherous current, so a pilot was needed to approach it. The seafloor here is littered with shipwrecks. The only way to attempt a conquest was to attack it from the landside, where the Zon, Maan and Ster bastions are impenetrable.


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And there are such enormous passions on both sides.
On the one side, we have farmers all over the US that are told "10% of your land is a riparian area and you are no longer allowed to use it." and then a few years later "30% of your land is now considered a riparian area and you are now longer allowed to use it."
On the other side, with the massive reductions in riparian areas, the water water has been significantly warmed and salmon habitat reduced.
I suspect that there is a great deal I do not yet understand here. Because with what little I know at this point .... I think the gub'mint is going about this all wrong.
First, my understanding is that most of the trouble with riparian habitat is tied to the army corps of engineers removing swamp lands and straightening rivers. Our tax dollars at work. Granted, this was done decades ago.
Second, here in the PNW, my impression is that 95% of the salmon have been wiped out by dams. So it would seem that the first step would be to fix this problem. Unless, of course, that industry has lots of lawyers and somebody with 5 acres cannot afford a lawyer - so the gub'mint fixes their problems by beating up on millions of little guys.
Next up, it would seem that the problem with the salmon has to do with keeping the water cool. Especially during the summer. So if one were to have a quarter mile of a creek and it were surround with a thick deciduous forest canopy - I would think that would fix it right up. That doesn't seem to be quite the same as keeping the animals off of it. I suppose that some animals could come in and eat some of the stuff that makes for shade. But, at the same time, wouldn't those animals leave stuff behind (manure) that would make for thicker canopy shade?
I suppose one could be concerned with animal poop in the water. First, my impression is that the danger of pathogens with animal manure is greatly less than with people poop. Is that accurate? Next, are there not paths where this can be mitigated? Plus, if we keep our animals from eating that feed, and thus, they don't poop in the water, doesn't that just leave more for wildlife that eats the same feed and then poops in the same water?
And one could be concerned with waters edge being destroyed by excessive animal traffic. I would think there are ways to mitigate that too.
I was recently studying under sepp holzer - the famous austrian permaculture farmer. He has about 100 acres. I would guess that it had zero creeks when he started: zero riparian area. By carefully working the land, it now has 70 ponds and loads of tiny creeks. One massive riparian area. It is my opinion that he is the leading agricultural genius of our day.
At his first presentation, there was a Q&A at the end. I asked if he would run pigs in a riparian area. "Absolutely!" and then somebody sitting behind me made some sort of snide remark about how that is not salmon safe.
In Sepp's 70 ponds and heaps of creeks, he raises all sorts of fish including the cold loving trout. On land that before was bone dry and nothing but conifer forest.
I suspect that Sepp knows a thousand times more about this stuff than the guy sitting behind me. My gut reaction is to put more faith in what Sepp says.
There must be a great deal that I currently do not yet understand. What am I not seeing?
paul wheaton wrote:
I suppose one could be concerned with animal poop in the water. First, my impression is that the danger of pathogens with animal manure is greatly less than with people poop. Is that accurate? Next, are there not paths where this can be mitigated? Plus, if we keep our animals from eating that feed, and thus, they don't poop in the water, doesn't that just leave more for wildlife that eats the same feed and then poops in the same water?
And one could be concerned with waters edge being destroyed by excessive animal traffic. I would think there are ways to mitigate that too.
There must be a great deal that I currently do not yet understand. What am I not seeing?
super complicated issue. one major thing that needs to be recognized pertaining to the quote I saved is that when domestic animals are removed they are not replaced in nearly the numbers by wild animals. you can run 50 head of cattle on 100 acres. if you remove them I can gaurantee they won't be replaced with 50 head of pronghorn. does that make sense?
domestic animals are able to survive in larger numbers due to the protection (in many ways) of humans. protection from disease, parasites, 'bad' years, predation etc....
so the domestic manure is not just replaced with wild manure and poses a much more serious threat to waterways as does their traffic on the banks.
there are serious issues being addressed near here concerning our rivers and chicken waste. (we seem to be the broiler capital of the freakin world). great big chicken farm right across the street from me. sorry off topic sort of. but this stuff is a pretty big concern for me.
"One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent
The important part, to me, is that removing livestock does not reduce water based poop by 100%. More like 40%. And you can probably get a 30% reduction by rigging up some water troughs away from the water.
wanted to point out that a major problem with the animal poop isn't the pathogens neccessarily but the nitrogen that runs off into the water feeding the algae and smothering the fish. pathogens must be addressed too of course. fairly recently in oklahoma there was the largest ecoli outbreak of its kind (so said the news) although the source was never officially identified (of that particular strain) supposedly they did find e. coli in the well that might have made it there from runnoff of poultry manure being spread as fertilizer. tin foil hat time.
"One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent
Ted Turner's bison ranch in New Mexico with cattle and fences removed showed that the bison only entered the riparian areas once a day for water. Whereas the cattle hung out in the riparian areas.
"Cattle tend to stick to streamsides or prairie potholes, trampling whatever riparian vegetation they don't kill with their nibbling style of grazing, which brings them back to the same plants they like time after time, until those species disappear. During hot weather, they often seek shelter in woody draws, where their overgrazing causes erosion and facilitates the invasion of more woody plants and noxious weeds."
"Bison are natural roamers. They range up to three miles from water, returning only once a day to drink and then moving off again. When it gets hot, they move to high ground and just keep on roaming as they feed - aggressively biting off a plant at the surface, rather than nibbling. If bison have enough room to roam, they don't return to a grazed area until it has rejuvenated, and they don't concentrate on a few plants - they're omnivores."
Cattle or goats can be introduced to the riparian areas for short periods to mimic this behavior. Cattle have actually been used to flatten out the sharp edges of eroded streambeds in preparation for re-planting.
I would think that timing and duration of the livestock is more important in the salmon streambeds than keeping them out completely. Perhaps it is thought to be an administrative nightmare.
The loggers have logged off everything they can touch along the waterways, as it was very easy to move the logs that way, and the silt and forest duff from far uphill washed into the waterways. The ranchers let their cattle trample and foul the area alongside the waterways, contributing not only waste, but silt to the waterways.
Several of the rivers here in western WA and OR used to be navigable. Then the loggers and the ranchers did their damage and the rivers filled with silt.
How about we set some of our greed aside and use some common sense? Or is that too much to ask?
You want to buy land with a river running through it, then you have to take care of it. You can't rip out every tree or have your cattle eat or trample every plant, and expect to have the same numbers salmon you had 50 years ago. People need to pull their heads out of that warm dark place and face reality.
gary - excellent. people often fail to recognize just how disimilar wild and animals are from domestic and try to manage them the same way and expect same results. there is much to be gained by studying wild animals behaviour but if we are to use that information to our advantage we must realize that our lazy domesticated animals must be forced to adopt that behaviour. they will not simply adopt it if provided some magical set of circumstances. they will eat the plants they like wether it is what is best for the land or not. they won't willingly travel great distances (with the unnatural amount of flesh they carry it seems understandable) etc...
"One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent
How about we set some of our greed aside and use some common sense?
I want to combine [size=16pt]good[/size] sense ("common" sense, IMOO, is a myth) and an economically viable farm.
Yes, I want to minimize any damage. But just because a bunch of other people are screwing stuff up doesn't mean that I am.
I can see the problems with clear cutting. I practice sustainable forestry. On my land on mount spokane, I planted far more trees than I cut.
If I have land with a river running through it, I want to use that river!
So, my thinking with this thread is: what are the issues of concern? With salmon, it seems keeping the water cool is a big concern. So, lots of trees and shrubs. But it seems I could run pigs in there ... I think it would be fair to say that I shouldn't run the same species of animal in more than 20% of my riparian area at one time - thus encouraging a paddock system.
Am I missing something here?
And when you say "If I have land with a river running through it, I want to use that river!", what, specifically, did you have in mind? Canoeing? Clearing the entire shoreline of natural growth and planting zoysia grass?
Please elaborate.
"One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent
Further, they do not utterly destroy a landscape.
While having them too intensively on land is a problem - as with any animal. Rotational systems have proven to benefit the land.
Rather than a treeless space with so many animals on the space year round that the water way is destroyed, I advocate a planting trees and bushes so thick so that few animals make use of the space. And then run animals in that space in a rotational system: the animals are in there long enough to consume about half of what they can consume and then they are moved to the next paddock.
As for rains washing pig manure into the river: from where?
And .... now that we have all of these trees over the water .... please note the pretty birds that are pooping into the water. And don't forget all of the other wildlife.
The key is that animals pooping into the water is going to happen with or without the pigs. Removing the pigs is not a fix - it's a knee jerk reaction. Things can be done so that animal poop getting into the water is reduced. And, further, things can be done to clean the water as it passes.
I think the big improvement is adding the trees and bushes. I think education about good paddock shift systems is of great value to people that use the land - and to the water, especially downstream.
Unless .... of course .... there is something that I do not yet understand.
As for pigs not utterly destroying a landscape...
I used to drive to work every day past a five-acre place that new owners had bought. They fenced off an area that was about 80x150' and brought in two small white piglets and a shelter, apparently to clean up the area, as a garden appeared afterward. It took very little time for those two little pigs to rototill that entire area. There was nothing left except two large trees at opposite corners of the enclosure. They wiped out everything else, EVERYTHING. And these were just little pigs, they disappeared before they got very big. Can you imagine how much damage a half-ton, always-hungry hog will do?
Pigs are destructive. That's why they placed a bounty on them in Texas. Here in WA, it is open season on them all year.
Putting them (or other domestic livestock) in a riparian area would appear to be the height of irresponsibility. Keep them rotating through pastures away from riparian areas where they belong. Birds and transient wildlife have always pooped into and near the rivers, and the rivers survived. The rivers and the salmon didn't start dying until the loggers and farmers came. It is always Mankind's excesses that cause the problem.
"If I have land with a river running through it, I want to use that river!"
I think that comment gets you a D on your permie scorecard. If you have land with a river running through it, you have a responsibility to that land and to that river.
"And, further, things can be done to clean the water as it passes."
I can't believe you even said that.
I know you like pigs adn I dont' want to pick on the idea but they are extremly destructive. they are non-native invasive species. if stocking rates were extremely low (lower than feral pigs ) then maybe its a possibility. once again the difference in the poop factor is the quantity. go sit in a tree stand in the woods some day and count how many animals you see pass through and shit. or just take a walk and look for scat. you will probably see nothing but a few bunnies and birds and squirrels even if you wait for days. is that how low of stocking rates your talking about? will you be able to walk through your pig area and not find any poop? seems too low to make it worth it. IMO it should be low enough that you can't find your pigs when its time to move them. and then what?
"One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent
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"If I have land with a river running through it, I want to use that river!"
I think that comment gets you a D on your permie scorecard. If you have land with a river running through it, you have a responsibility to that land and to that river.
"And, further, things can be done to clean the water as it passes."
I can't believe you even said that.
I asked sepp holzer about running pigs on riparian areas. His answer was "of course!"
Getting an "A" from Sepp trumps your "".
As so the devestation that you witnessed: Suppose you ran 10 goats in the same space for the same amount of time. I suspect the devestation would be about the same.
Now do the same thing with ten deer. Or two elk. Or two moose. Or five mountain lions.
Same level of devestation.
And in all of these cases, I would call that poor animal husbandry and poor land stewardship.
Now if you have much larger paddocks, say, two acres and you move the pigs every time about 30% of the green material has been consumed ... that would be much better.
Susan, if you are uncomfortable with what I have to say about cleaning water as it passes, i suggest that you take a look at Mollison's big, black book. Lots of stuff in there about cleaning running water. You might also try the book Water Storage.
I think well managed pigs would contribute almost no problems to the passing water. In fact, I would guess that my management of pigs in the area would change the total fecal matter in an area by an amount that is too small to measure. Without pigs in the area, that same area would be populated by wild animals - animals that have no concern over pooping in the water. Pigs, which, when given plenty of room, do not poop where they sleep .... I suspect that they would generally not poop in water. I've kept a lot of pigs and I've never seen them poop in the water. Of course, that isn't proof, but I suspect that pigs poop in the water less than, say, deer.
On my land at mount spokane, I had a pond and a waterfall as the last things that left my property. I felt that the pond did a good job of intercepting particulate and the plant/bacterial life in the pond would consume nearly everything that came there. And the waterfall would seriously aerate the water just before leaving my land. I felt that this last cleaning step probably made the water that left my land cleaner than when it arrived.
A good thing.
It is true that when I have kept pigs in the past that I have had them in a lot of different areas.
In the winter I tend to keep them in a smaller area where it is easier to see them. But, no running water. In the summer, I keep them in a much larger, wooded area, often with some patch of water. And in that much larger area, it is true, I usually don't even see them. Or their poop. But i would try to put a little food out for them each day so that they would come out and I could make sure all is well.
"One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent
As far as I'm concerned, sepp holzer is not God.
Also, the attitude that if you own land alongside a river you should be able to use it for your special purposes is simply rationalizing your particular form of destruction.
Riparian areas are intensely fragile ecosystems. If you could find any that aren't damaged (HA!), you would probably find that they have been left alone (probably totally inaccessible, about the only way to avoid Man's rampant destruction). No camping, no boat ramps, no reconstruction, no renovating an area to encourage sport fish, no tilling, no plant harvesting, no logging, no livestock.
Just leave it alone!
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Wild animals passing through don't usually do an incredible amount of damage. Penned animals do.
Exactly! I wish to manage animals in riparian areas to be very similar to wild animal impact.
As far as I'm concerned, Sepp Holzer is not God.
It's funny that you feel the need to say that. Are you struggling with this issue?
Are you trying to be dismissive of Sepp's techniques? Is this something where you are not sure what you don't like about Sepp's stuff so this is some way to be dismissive in general?
Also, the attitude that if you own land alongside a river you should be able to use it for your special purposes is simply rationalizing your particular form of destruction.
Either you can name my form of destruction, or you owe me an apology.
Since at this time I am not doing this, then I think you owe me an apology. There is no destruction here. there is only an attempt to understand. Suggesting that I am destroying something when I am not shows that your argument is so weak that you have make stuff up in a feeble attempt to weaken my argument.
You definitely have some crow to eat.
Riparian areas are intensely fragile ecosystems. If you could find any that aren't damaged (HA!), you would probably find that they have been left alone (probably totally inaccessible, about the only way to avoid Man's rampant destruction). No camping, no boat ramps, no reconstruction, no renovating an area to encourage sport fish, no tilling, no plant harvesting, no logging, no livestock.
Sepp's land was almost all conifer trees on steep slopes with almost zero flowing water most of the year. Therefore, less than 1% riparian area. Through his eforts he now has something like 20% riparian areas. A wide variety of riaparian wildlife found his property and are flourishing there. Life that was not there before. And there are lots of livestock.
So I think you have to admit that there is at least one case where humans can nurture nature.
Just leave it alone!
By your own demonstration, do you not live in a house? Doing so does not appear to be a subscription to your "leave it alone" policy. And a garden - do you plant seeds? That doesn't seem to be the same as "leave it alone." In fact, almost anything you do seems contrary to "leave it alone."
Rather than "leave it alone" I would like to learn how to be a good land steward. Perhaps improve the land. Add and improve riparian areas - and benefit from that. Hence this thread.
I know of lots of ways to destroy a creek. A CAFO comes to mind.
I guess my mission here is to understand what it is that folks are seeking. Cooler water? Fewer water pathogens? Is there a number somewhere?
It seems to me that if I have a tiny, seasonal creek exposed to the sun (like I used to have) that I could add lots and lots of trees and run too many animals and the creek would still run off my land cooler and cleaner than before all of the trees. So: net improvement, right?
But it seems that the thing to do is to start with getting one's head wrapped around the concerns ... the issues ... the metrics and then move forward.
"Nature is perfect. There is nothing to improve. If you do attempt it nevertheless, you're are fooling and defrauding yourself. Nature is also complete in itself; errors are made by us humans." -Holzer
a naturally silty and nitrogen rich creek hosts its own life and ecosystem. a cool clear river does also. I think reference to 'improvement' always needs to be made with the understanding of whether that is in the context of improving the natural enviroment (restoring it from previous insult) or improving it for human habitation. for instance, simply increasing riparian areas, although popular because of the positive connotations and eco popularity of the word 'riparian' is not an 'improvement' of an area that was previously hosting an enviroment without it, in my opinion. it is displacing the natural enviroment and all the plants, fungi, bacteria and animals that thrived in that particular delicate ecosystem. you can't add anything without taking something away. if the enviroment is intact in its natural form then i beleive care should be taken to prevent any change that is not absolutley neccesary for human quality of life. then the debate comes to what is "natural form" because nature is changing constantely. flora and fauna are constantly adapting. what is natural and what is not? I think the best way to define that, is what have humans done that have (or have not) done to change it? the only applicable definition of something that is unnatural is 'something that humans have created or altered significantly' as sentient beings we have put ourselves outside of nature to at least some extent. our unique ability to rapidly change an enviroment has such potential to do everlasting harm that we must, as sentient beings, take responsibility for changing the enviroment as little as possible.
"One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent
It seemed he took his pigs where he wanted them, that he was a swine herd to them or the boss on a digging trip. He has a really complicated system, a few pigs to dig for him and a lot of vegetable gardening and a bit fish farming. I think copying him is a bit daunting for a simply man, it is so hard to calculate wheather you are going to get by on lots of bits and pieces and he probably built up this complexity slowly, he had those black potatoes that i have seen in the most expensive vegetable shop in Madrid. what do they cost something like ten euros a kilo i hhink I know i decided to only buy 100 or 200 grams of them. What market does he have for them? How much do special potatoes cost in Austria? I bet he does not let hi pigs loose on their own to eat them.
I read a long time ago about the English organic self sufficiency man. John Seymour and it was not just about being healthy it was about growing more.
He talked of what he said was the Chinese or French old fashioned method, that existed in France when they had lots of manure in towns because transport was horse drawn. The Chinese use human manure, Sepp gets his from his digging pigs, but where do they stay when he does not have a job for them on the hill?
John Seymours method is for growing enormous quantities of veggies on very little land. I think it is part of Sepp Holsters system, sepps has parts that aren't included in john seymours books. It went like this.
I tried to buy his book to cheque everything out and write it correctly but i made a mistake and brought one that did not include a description of raised beds, so from memory.
You dig a bed the right size to work on without standing on the bed, narrow so that you can work from either side and reach into the centre of the bed easily. In the Sepp Holster version it would include a ditch with logs in it and on top you pile up manure and soil and you plant it up, so that your vegetables make a microclimate, all the plants together working as little vapourisers and shading each other in the Mediterranean you might want some trees to reduce the sun light a bit and you make sure that if you harvest some veggies you replace them with others so that the soil is never bare and left to dry out and there is a continual supply of new roots to better your soil. Keep some weeds to transplant to your veggie beds if you can't organise for a continual supply of horticultural plants. Do a bit of crop rotation from one year to the next so that whichever critters eat, whichever vegetables, have to find out where you've put it before they can attack them.
The soils in his system are so full of nutrients and as you never step on them, so light that you get enormous quantities of vegetables and earn more than anyone else with your small plot.
Less watering because the plants shade each other, less leaching of nutrients, more humates and less leaching of nutrients and water as well.
What about a bit of leonardite the mineral that is a mined ancient build up of humus, to improve the PH of the soil and make it easier for the plants to assimilate the nutrients and some mycorrhizae fungi to help them to absorb even more nutrients because fungi roots are finer and abvsorb more and this type of fungi pass on minerals and food to the palnsa and take sugars and elaborated food of them and how about inoculating the trees in your garden with truffles and teaching your pigs to find them they would really earn you some money.
Soils with more organic matter in them have more enzymes, mainly made up of amino acids in them something that they are beging to put in fertilisers for house plants, which also help plants to absorb nutrients.
Asorbing nutrients is like digesting food you need acids and enzymes to do it and soil in which chemical nutrients have been used lack so many things taht are handy for the absorption of nutrients, that once were not understood to be necessary, that plants grow smaller than they otherwise would in these so modern times.
People stopped putting organic matter in the soil because with the use of chemical nitrogen ntrogen no longers came from organic matter it came from chemicals the farmer applied to the soil so they thought they did not need organic matter anymore. The farmers stopped thinking of making sure the earth had it, so the soils have been starved of organic materials from the moment chemicals were used. Now we know how many other things in organic matter are important to the soil not putting organic matter into the soil is crazy.
More crazy is the slowness of the spread of new scientific knowledge that matters to farmers so that they can make an informed choice about what they do.
Soils with organic materials in them have chelating agents in them, I think soap is a chelating agent it mixes oil and water. Chelating agents increase the solubility of metals like iron, copper, zinc and manganese, making them easy for the plant to absorb.
Lots of types of fungi produce substances that act like chelating agents and chemicals including fertilisers in the soil kill things like fungi, ruining the chances of the soil for building up chelating agents.
For better information on all this look up- TNN - Achieving Excellence in Sustainable and Biological agriculture - genera .... WWW.tnn.com. au/_General0/020information.asp. in google. This article talks of humus on the third page and talks more about it on the 5 page and on every following page page till the twelfth i think. I have to read it more thoroughly.
Other books and this site tell you which plants to plant to frighten off plagues and to encourage beneficial insects, like the small bee like one, that likes a good big munch at pollen before it tucks in to aphids and Sepp would tell you which ones to plant as medicine.
The thing is that these people grow more, they are creative, informed and efficient and their stuff gets a premium in the market for being healthy. They get paid more for quality goods and gourmet ones. For not having pesticides and herbicides and for having more vitamins and more secondary metabolites in the food they sell and tastier food, garden grown peppers are much tastier than market ones and as there are people around who earn more than they need and can afford to look after their health buying expensive organic products. Producing permiculture food is a way of earning money, not of becoming a, less than million, millionaire as you might with a factory farm, but of earning more than you expected to with your quantity of land.
Permaculture is a way of growing a greater quantity of hay, rather than just richer hay and so earning more, if soils are enriched, if you have been busting yourself to grow two crops a year so as to increase the organic material, the straw or what ever, you can put into your soil , while others have just not bothered to think of their soils, if you have collected your own seed to serve as a cover crop and so you don't lose soil, because with cover crops you don't have bare earth ever, if you have been creative and found a way of producing organic matter you will grow more but of course you have to be good at it, adn you might not grow much more at first though you can grow something a t first it take a while to get really good soils. An inefficient farmer might not succeed and a business is always a risk especially at first.
A great sight for outdoor pig farming is, hog heaven by Brian DeVore- alternative hog production www.yesmagazine.org/article.ap?ID=339. you should be able to get it with -hog heaven Brian DeVore- in google. Rose macaskie
If the waste exceeds the capacity of your farm to absorb it, then you give it to those farmers Sue Monroe talks of who are growing crops of poor quality hay, which means they sell or their organic matter and have none for their land and their soil gets poorer and poorer.
It sounds as if the problem is division of tasks. If the farmer feeds his own animals with hay, he will have the manure of his live stock to increase the organic material on his land, if he produces hay and others breed animals, he does not have any manure and has to grow the feed on land that is impoverished for lack of manure, organic material treated by an animal and the people who have the animals have too much manure that poisons their districts, the soil, drinking water and the air, by producing poisonous gases. Again hog heaven by DeVOre - alternative hog productions treats this theme. as does- polish factory farms cause a stink BBC -you get the article about a Smithfield's factory farm in Poland. in google with these words.
paul stamets has a fungi that eats E. coli the Brazil mushroom, it send out a secretion that detects e coli and then another that attracts it and stuns it and then eats up this bacteria. So it seems that there is a reason to grow fungi on your land and to learn to grow fungal mats and sell them to other people, an art that you can learn in Paul Stamets book advertised on this blog. Fungi grown for micoremediation aren't as hard to grow as fungi you grow to eat, from the sound of it, they seem to work better if they have not been grown in a sterile environment.
I had a boar moving around in my garden two years ago. It did not do for the trees and i hoped it would make some paths on my precipice, it made a few beds for itself and ate a patch of wild orchids, my son said yum yum.
The pigs in the wild here range around on very big farms or big bits of commun land, eating grass reduces their need for water and so necessity to stay by the river.
Small holders keep them in a shed and bring them beets as i said before or if they have more pigs in pig stye with a yard, this is without talking of modern pig farming .
read micoremediation or fitoremediation or bioremediation in google.
Leah, good Sepp quote. I've heard him say that sort of thing many times. Fukuoka says very similar stuff. And we can examine their farms to see how they choose to interpret their words.
"if the enviroment is intact in its natural form then i beleive care should be taken to prevent any change that is not absolutley neccesary for human quality of life."
I think it is wise to have a lot of land like that. I think we should call it "wilderness".
It seems to me that the issue at stake is that folks buy land in an effort to be self sustainable. So they work long and hard and are then told that they are not allowed to use their land for farming. I think it is fair to say "no pesticides" or "no chemical fertilizers" or "you have too much NPK coming out downstream" or "you are doing something that is making the water funky and you need to stop" but instead, they are saying that they don't get to use portions of their land at all.
That doesn't seem right.
On a similar note, I think paddock shift systems may do more to meet the goals of riparian areas. And a collection of ponds will help riparian areas survive a particularly harsh summer brought on by regional deforestation and chemical monocropping.
I saw Stamets speak recently and he mentioned something where there was some sort of ag toxin problem - i think it was an overgrazing issue - and stamets came up with a fungus that helped fix things up. In that case, they were measuring downstream gick.
paul wheaton wrote:
there are folks that are making laws saying that land owners are not allowed to use land classified as "riparian". Why?
the answer to that question is pretty simple. people in general have not proven to use it responsibly and are screwing up the waterways for everyone. one of those times when someones right to use their land is infringing on others or the world in general. if I wanted to use my land as a toxic waste dump there would probably be a few protesters . although it is my land, that does not give me the right to do something with it that will threaten someone elses (runoff). hence there are laws against it. if you want to do something with your land that will be detrimental to the waterway that also passes through mine I would be pretty ticked off.
the line between our property rights and the need to protect the enviroment and others can get pretty difficult to manage. they can't realistically police everyone. its not like they can say hey billy joe over there is silting the river with his farming practices lets go ask him not to. there are huge legal fees, fights over how much is too much silt, where that silt is really coming from, and on top of that its not just billy joe, its a multitude of other people. our water ways are being terribly polluted with nitrogen. and it is a huge fight over who has to clean it up, whose fault it is and who is going to pay for it, and how it is going to be stopped. additionally by the time a problem is recocknized it is too late. the damage is done.
"One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent
You are getting cross with a fervent admirer of permaculture, that is of sustainable farming and one of the tenets of this type of farming is not having more rubbish than you can deal with, the right amount of manure, it is all about responsable treatment of the land ain't you wasting your energy attacking someone who was unlikely to have more pigs than the place could sustain cleanly, you did not even ask Paul Wheaton how many pigs he meant to put by his river or at any rate didn ot get a reply before getting on a moral high horse about animals by rivers.
It is really factory farms that produce more waste in one place than the ground or rivers can deal with.
It is a government body that comes out and cheques Paul wheatons land for ecoli. You don't have to do it there are people whose job it is to do it , at any rate they checked Paul Stamets land for e coli.
When i was a child i always heard women talked of in scorn because they took the least indication that their might be soem wrong doing and with no reall evidence went to work destroying whoever they had thought might have done wrong. I now know that ithis is equally a trait of men. I determined i was not going to be like women, i would wait till i had all the facts before i attacked. The result is, I never attacked anyone, in the old days, still, though it can turn you into a bystander, it is as well not to accuse Paul Wheaton of wanting to have a factory farm on the edge of his river before you have found out his plans.
Fish farms really poison rivers they have many more fish than are allowed by any decent permiculturist for the rivers they are close to to be able to manage the amount of manure pesticides or fish flees that come from fish farms. Attack those who really have plans to have a big scale meat production near rivers. It is not the animal it is the quantity of that animal that you have to consider.
Would you allow hippopotamuses in the river? rose macaskie.
Paul Wheaton I did not read your bit about a ag toxin to do with overgrazing,
Paul Stamets special contamination cleaning fungi would help with one of the problems of having pigs on you landt hat created manure though I thought that problem was dealt with by having the right amount of pigs on your land.
I also suppose the deep straw bedding of the pigs in the article, - pig heaven, by Brian DeVore would resolve the problem, as the bacteria that break down straw are nitrogen guzzlers.
When i was going through Paul Stamets book, I have just started reading Paul Stamets a short while ago and since then i have been writting here. So I haven't read all of him I can make big mistakes about him. When I was listening to him an dreading him, I read about him having a e coli problem that inspectors wanted him to clean up on, it seems he brought a piece of land and there, had his own drains and the muck if some live stock draining down his land.
He did not get round to resolving the e coli problem, this was when he started out and was not controlling everything I suppose but he did get round to planting a outdoor big bed of Brazil mushrooms that he planned to sell. The following year the inspectors came round and found that the e coli problem that affected his neighbors oyster farm had disappeared.
Paul Stamets being a scientist he took the Brazil mushrooms back to his lab and studied them. He found that they, for one, put out a liquid in front of their growing hypha that disappears if e coli come near, so letting the fungi know there are e coli around, and in second place the brazil mushroom produces another liquid that attracts and stuns e coli, making them easy for the mushroom to gobble up. Of course this helps get rid of the e coli, it is not as if they have to hunt it out which would be really hard work it is that they attract it to them. Rose Macaskie
You make them keeping hay or wood chips in water till they are well soaked, wood chips for five weeks and then introducing the foot of the mushroom in to the bag of wood chips and waiting until the fungi roots hypha mycelium shot through the whole. If it works this is the base for fungal mats, you take out the part full of fungi and put it in more wood chips or whatever till you have a lot of fungus growing off lots of bags of wood chips. Paul Stamets calls this mycelium running.
If you want to sow land with them you lay down a good depth of wood chips, then your fungal mats, then corn cobs and then cardboard to stop the microbes getting in and eating up the fungus before it got a hold.
Paul Stamets gives a longer and better explanation.
I shall make some sooner or later.
It seems that it is normal to make super sterile food, wood chips, straw or coffee grounds, for mushrooms that you are going to eat, and that those you grow to clean up the landscape are stronger and better for having a less sterile childhood, so it is not so hard to grow fungal mats for this end than it is to grow fungi to eat.
He also grows fungi that clear up different problems that clean up such things as pesticides. rose macaskie
And the problematic toxin was found.
This makes sense.
Some types of herbicides, the ones that aren't biodegradable fall on your field and get taken up by your plant, your plant gets eaten by your cattle and excreted by them and the pesticides molecular nature stays the same waiting to become part of the next blade of grass, the next cow till the cow dies and returns the pesticide to the earth or to us if buried and to us if eaten, etc.
It seems that pesticides are complex molecules. I knew no chemistry till I read about things like Paul Stamets book mycelium running and that I know no chemistry still goes on being the truth excepting a tiny thing or two. But here goes about mushrooms and the breakup of supposedly no biodegradable chemicals,
According to Paul Stamets, mushrooms break down a lot of the sort of molecules that are hard to break down and if they don't he can train them to do so.
If whatever toxin you want to destroy have in their molecular structure some of the atoms mushrooms need, like carbons and hydrogen's, or phosphorus that the fungi can, maybe, with a bit of work, separate out the atoms of the molecule and use the atoms he needs to make fungal sugars. Separating the atoms out means making substances that break the bonds that hold one atom to another in a molecule. These bonds are electro-magnetic forces so you need to fabricate a substances that has a stronger pull on the atoms than the one that binds them. then fungi can be trained to break down the molecules and zamp the atoms they want, when the pesticide e has lost its molecular structure it ceases existing.
Paul Stamets looks for species that already break down molecules that are contained in the poison such as a species that already eats things with phosphorus in them will break down a poison that has phosphorus as one of its components. this is not an fully detailed description of what Paul Stamets says it is a sort of bad introduction but I think it is good enough for everyone to understand the basics of the discoveries of Stamets, to give everyone who has not read his books an idea of what is in them. Or a breath of hope about some of our greatest problems as concerns our world. I am worried that this about phosphorus, is the sort of mushroom he looks for to undo nerve gas molecules, not pesticides but I think it is the same for both. When he has found a fungi that he thinks has characteristics likely to make them suitable for destroying one or other poisonous molecule, Paul Stamets teaches them to break down the new substance.
First he puts a bit of the toxin in the mixture he has prepared to feed his baby fungi with, so they will get used to the horrible presence from the first days of their lives and then after about two weeks he will start reducing their normal food, week by week, until or they digest toxin or they die of hunger.
Paul Stamets says that the growing tips of hypha produce lots of chemicals which they try out to see if they will work, to find out what will digest the particular object that is in front of them. That is how they manage to digested chemicals that aren't their normal food.
He has lots of romantic ideas like about the intelligence of fungi that have made him really push them and their capacities, his romanticism has served science, it made him more adventurous, it made him try to train fungi to break down things they don't normally break down.
I have intelligent plants. One seedling of mine of a ginkgo, after growing straight up a little bit ever year, in the sixth year grew a longish side branch in the direction of the light and a counterweight shorter branch in the other direction. This was a balcony breed tree, without full sunlight. It was obviously an intelligent response. It made me wonder.
If you wanted to reduce the pesticides on your land with Paul Stamets fungi you might have to buy his specially trained strains. You could not just find an ordinary example of the fungi he has used, but he sells the material to grow his mushrooms.
Any old oyster mushroom does to eat up e coli according to Paul Stamets, he found this out because he was growing oyster mushrooms in a field that had too much e—coli according to authorities and the growth of the oyster mushroom beds did for the e coli so he studied their behavior with e coli and found that it is not just that they eat e coli it is that they even produce a substance that attracts e coli so as to make it easier to get a good meal of them.
On some thread you said that Paul Stamets had found six ways to save the world, i think that is right. His enthusiasm for fungi and creativity has got him finding out lots of ways to save the world. People say all news is bad, he is a good bit of news. rose macaskie
rose macaskie wrote:
Leah Sattler the world is full of factory farms backed up by enormous multinationals that really and truly overburden the system with rubbish. Are you one of their followers discrediting a person who tries for cleaner methods?
You are getting cross with a fervent admirer of permaculture, that is of sustainable farming and one of the tenets of this type of farming is not having more rubbish than you can deal with, the right amount of manure, it is all about responsable treatment of the land ain't you wasting your energy attacking someone who was unlikely to have more pigs than the place could sustain cleanly, you did not even ask Paul Wheaton how many pigs he meant to put by his river or at any rate didn ot get a reply before getting on a moral high horse about animals by rivers.
I'm not cross at all. the question was 'why all the laws'. the laws are there for the reason I stated. I'm not implying the laws are there for the responsible people jsut to make them mad. they are there for the irresponsible people. and the line between the two can be difficult to establish in court. so rightly so I think they are trying to protect the waterways. sure big farms are the problem. but who gets to decide what a big farm is? how many pigs are acceptable? if we say that 5 pigs are acceptable the person with 6 is going to be mad and the guy who is keeping 2 poorly is still going to be a problem.
I'm not sure where you get that I am for big farms I am saying that they are the problem......
its one of those issues that doesn't have a real good legislative answer. and so the answer is evolving into simply restricting the use of the riparian areas.
its not that they can't be used responsibly. but that many people dont'. and have messed it up for everyone. although I am not big government I do believe in legislation that will protect the enviroment even though some of the little guys are going to get caught up in it.
"One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent
One possible route: Suppose there is a program where a farmer could become a "certified riparian area steward" which involves class time and an exam. These folks can then use riparian areas as much as they want because they now know "the good way".
Sue Munroe says wild animals don't hurt the land, wild animals can do an incredible amount of damage. In Scotland they cull the deer and elephants get culled too or they would cause desertification. It is a bit complicated isn't it, I suppose that if elephants, in a setting without humans, killed every plant, hunger would then reduce their population and the vegetation would get reestablished.
The truth is, Africa has a good soil or did in many places in spite of having a dry season and supporting large herds of wildebeest and such.
That dry parts of Africa have good soils is a good argument for saying, "how the devil did your soil get so poor," to the countries from Spain to China who have dry seasons, where soils lack all top soil is the rule and desertification is rife.
On the other hand there must be places where wild animals do for the vegetation.
My observation with humans is not so much overgrazing because they have too many animals. It is that humans lead their flocks over the same terrain again and again till they have killed the plants and then move on to the next to reduce fire risk. It is also that they use herbicides to reduce the vegetation.
I will post a photo of the enormous amount of terrain a shepherd or two wander over in the mountains here. You can see two villages in the photograph and they are very empty villages, so you can see why the destruction of the vegetation seems to them to be the only way to keep the vegetation down in time for the summer dry season. rose macaskie.
I managed to get four of them in a group and asked about running pigs in riparian areas as part of a paddock shift system. This sparked a lot of discussion between these folks. In the end it seems that the consensus was that what I propose would be a good idea. One of them brought me to another guy and I ran it by him. That guy recognized me from one of the sepp holzer workshops and showed interest in doing a study - although a volunteer farmer would be needed.
Anybody in washington state have some land they would like to have Sepp-ified?
Concerns are mostly about NPK in the water. There are also some concerns about pathogens and turbidity.
Turbidity is an interesting one. If mud and dirt get in the water, little fish might not be able to breathe. Since most creeks get pretty muddy at high water, it does seem that this is something the fish should be able to deal with. Interesting.
Something that is not a concern is having the water be very brown, yet very clear. Milky brown (like mud) is bad. Clearish brown (like lots of peat-ish stuff in the water) is fine!
Another interesting point is that a cedar, loaded to the gills with allelopathic gick, in the water, does not hurt fish! (as a side note, I gathered some excellent info on the different allelopathic agents in conifers and in cedars in particular)
I visited with some of these folks at great length about the goals (reduce NPK, pathogens and turbidity) and some sentiment against farmers may be ill placed. There are problems and the knee jerk reaction has been that since the problems are caused by farmers to simply try to force farming away from riparian areas. But since the farmers that were doing a good job did not cause the problems, then they were not noticed. And the good farmers would end up getting punished along with the bad farmers.
My impression is that there are techniques that offer big improvements for the fish and for the farmer.
Stocking densities weren't defined, but at least that branch of government has some idea.
Permaculture Education, Blog and Resources https://www.milkwood.net
"One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent
Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Zappa. Tiny ad:
five days of natural building (wofati and cob) and rocket cooktop oct 8-12, 2018https://permies.com/t/92034/permaculture-projects/days-natural-building-wofati-cob


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MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) — Federal officials say a Delta Air Lines flight has made an unplanned stop in Montgomery, Ala., because the crew said they smelled smoke in the cockpit area.
Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen says a Boeing 757 was flying from Cancun, Mexico, when the crew reported the odor Sunday afternoon.
Delta Air Lines spokesman Russell Cason says a fluorescent bulb ballast burned out and caused the smell. It wasn't immediately clear if the piece of equipment was inside the cockpit area.
Cason says 184 passengers and six crew members got off the plane at the Montgomery Regional Airport. A replacement aircraft is scheduled to get passengers and crew members to Atlanta about four hours later than originally scheduled.


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in this section
Presidential Fellowship awarded to a Ph.D. student in You group
Daniel Garcia, a Ph.D. student advised by Prof. Fengqi You (Roxanne E. and Michael J. Zak Professor at the Smith School), was recently awarded a Presidential Fellowship. This is the most prestigious fellowship awarded to graduate students by Northwestern University.
Each doctoral program may nominate one or two applicants, and less than 15% of nominated students are appointed to the Fellowship. This highly competitive award is funded by the President of the Northwestern University. Daniel joined You group in December 2013 at Northwestern University.


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Author Lecture Series, Featuring Benjamin Friedman. Thurs., May 18. 6pm registration, 6:30pm lecture, 7:30pm reception & book signing. NYU Stern School of Business, Schimmel Auditorium, Tisch Hall, 40 W. 4th St. Call to reserve a space. 212-998-4040.
bALTIMORE pOETS, Enjoy three entertaining and diverse Baltimore poets, Chris Toll, Barbara DeCesare and Reginald Harris. Book signing to be held after the reading. Sat., May 13 from 2-4pm. Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery at Bleecker St. 212-614-0505. $6.
CARTOONS: No Laughing Matter? A feature-length program of 8 new animated films that mine the darker recesses of the soul. Despite the subject matter, or maybe because of it, animators manage to tackle the issues and keep their funny bone intact. May 10-23, screenings at 1:15, 3:15, 6, 8 and 10pm. FILM FORUM, W. Houston St., west of 6th Ave. Program not appropriate for children.
Chelsea Piers Golf Fest, Spend the day hitting golf balls, taking a group class or planning a golf outing. Kids can enjoy the Kids Corner with Mini-Golf, Sticky Golf and golf instruction. Food and beverages will be served. The Golf Club at Chelsea Piers, Pier 59, 18th St and the Hudson River. Sat., May 6 from 12-6pm and Sun., May 7 from 12-5pm. $15 adults per day; Children (ages 6-14) $10 per day, Children (ages 3-5) $5 per day.
Children's Festival of Flowers, This joyful celebration of spring, flowers, children and community kicks off the garden season. Kids will learn about composting and how to plant seeds in pots they can take home. Enjoy face painting, spring garden crafts and special giveaways. Entertainer Laine Barton will enchant with magical surprises beginning at noon. The Jefferson Market Garden, Greenwich and Sixth Aves. Sat., May 6 from 11am to 2pm. Rain date is Sun., May 7.
Chornobyl Tragedy Commemoration, View the film Chernobyl Heart, a shocking and moving film that depicts the continuing effects of radiation on the children of Belarus. Sun., May 7 at 2:30pm. Free, donations will be accepted for the reception to follow. The Ukrainian Museum, 222 E. 6th St., 212-228-0110.
Comedy Workshops for Kids, ON-CAMERA AUDITION WORKSHOPS, Increase your chances of getting work in TV or film by learning how to audition for the camera. For participants ages 10-17. 4-week workshop, 2-hour classes. Classes begin the first Saturday of each month at 2:30pm. $250. Gotham Comedy Club, 208 W. 23rd St., 212-877-6115, www.kidsncomedy.com.
Cornelia Street Café Events, Enjoy live entertainment nightly including musical performances and poetry readings. Check www.corneliastreetcafe.com for detailed information. 29 Cornelia St., bet W. 4th and Bleecker Sts. 212-989-9319.
Flashers, A reading of short friction by New York writers. Sat., May 6 from 7-8:30pm. KGB Bar, 85 E. 4th St., bet 2nd & 3rd Aves. www.kgbbar.com. Free.
Meet the Artists Night, Franklin 54 Gallery recently relocated from Tribeca to the West Village and area residents are invited to come by the new gallery space, meet the artists and speak with them about their creations. Franklin 54 Gallery, 181 Christopher St. Thurs., May 4 from 6:30-8:30pm. 212-627-8690.
MONTHLY STANDUP WORKSHOPS, Available for children who wish to perform in the Kids 'n Comedy show. Participants must arrive with 2-3 minutes of original material. Each child will receive a taped copy of the workshop to use as a teaching tool. May 7 at 1:30pm. $50. Pre-registration and payment required.
Spring Art Auction, An opportunity to purchase original art from living artists at great savings. Works in oil, acrylic, pastel, watercolor and sculpture will be available. Bids begin at $200. Photography and graphics also available, bids begin at $150. Auction on Fri., May 5, 12 & 19 at 8pm. View the exhibition of works thru May 19 from 1-5pm. SALMAGUNDI CLUB, 47 5th Ave. 212-255-7740. www.salmagundi.org.
Teen Spring Photo Program, Review the basics of photography with 35 mm SLR cameras, learn new techniques of photography, challenge and stretch your creative mind and showcase your work in a public exhibition. Thru June 10, Saturdays from 10am - 1pm. Pier 40 Picnic House in Hudson River Park, W. Houston St. $50 registration fee, cameras and all other costs will be covered. Ages 13 - 19 years. Register now by calling Matthew Washington at 212-757-0981 x204.
Where Art and Life Collide, A series of premiere performances, lectures and events demonstrating how artists Ron Athey, Franko B and Vaginal Davis juxtapose life with art while using themselves as canvases. Thru May 5. For more information, visit www.artofnightlife.net.
Wearing Vintage, Confused as to whether that 80's jean jacket goes with your favorite 50's skirt? Learn all there is to know about Vintage Fashion. May 17 from 7-10pm. University Settlement, 184 Eldridge St., corner of Rivington. $20 in advance, $25 at the door. 212-453-0257.
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Sunday, October 21, 2007
Back from vacation/ cool bedspread
Anyway, the house my folks rented had a fun addition to the room I stayed in. It was clearly designed as a kids' room by the owners, and had a bedspread featuring a certain gang of cartoon characters...
The bedspread was, apparently, from 1996, and used old drawings and model sheets rather than the standard publicity poses of the era...one of the only Looney Tunes items I've ever seen that did that.
To see more of the bedspread, check this out:
More bedspread picts
Another interesting LT-related fact...Avalon, NJ is home to a wonderful fish market called "Sylvester's", (the founders' last name was "Sylvester") which, sadly, was not open at this time of year. But there's an infamous story about a Warner Bros. executive who vacationed there in the late 1980s, who threatened to sue if they didn't remove their wonderful sign featuring the iconic Looney Tunes "puddy tat". the Sylvester family obliged, and by the early 90's, the sign (and great drawings on the take-out menu I remember coloring as a kid) were gone. I last visited Sylvester's about 3 years ago, and they still had a stuffed Sylvester doll perched on the rafter inside...in "quiet defiance", as an employee pointed out.
Here's a photo, from the Sylvester's website, of the old sign, circa 1986:
7 comments:
- jbwarner86 said...
Nice bed - I think I can identify all the model sheets and animation drawings that those poses came from (just about all of them were reprinted in "That's All, Folks!" by Steve Schneider). Although I note that in the Daffy "Rabbit Fire" walk cycle ("No more buwwets? Here, lemme see that thing..."), Elmer's gun seems to have been replaced with a baseball bat.
- October 21, 2007 at 9:08 PM
Hi Matt: it seems that you had a wonderful time with your parents...and it had been much more funny with all these Looney Tunes Stuff, which a good fanatic ( like us!) would sure photograph!
- October 22, 2007 at 1:24 AM
cool pics! I love that bedspread!
- October 22, 2007 at 1:25 AM
- Jon Cooke said...
This looks like something that probably came from the WB Studio Store originally.
- October 22, 2007 at 6:55 AM
I had those when I was kid! I loved them! It was a sad day when my mom said I was too "old" for those bedsheets...but it was and still is awesome in my eyes.
- October 22, 2007 at 10:17 AM
- Thad K said...
I had actually had those until I was 17 (more out of laziness than anything). I had to get rid of them when I realized I couldn't get laid with Bugs Bunny bedsheets.
- October 23, 2007 at 5:00 PM
Ups...I forgot! I fell sorry for that poor Sylvester and his family...That sing was a original piece!
- October 24, 2007 at 8:59 AM


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Apr 08, 2014
BRISTOL, Tenn. – The King University men's and women's tennis teams were slated to host Lincoln Memorial University on Wednesday afternoon. However, the matches have been canceled and will not be rescheduled.
The Tornado men have posted a record of 8-7 while going 5-2 in Conference Carolinas play, and the women are 7-10 overall this season with a 2-5 mark in league play. The teams will have a busy weekend as they host Barton College on Friday at 1:00 p.m., before taking to the road on Saturday and Sunday. King travels to Lenoir-Rhyne University at 2:00 p.m., on Saturday and Newberry College on Sunday at 1:00 p.m.


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Anna is beautiful
Anna Kendrick arrived back in Vancouver this weekend to resume work on the Joseph Gordon-Levitt/Seth Rogen project. She seemed to be in great spirits. Looks really, really gorgeous. Perhaps the most gorgeous I've ever seen her. And certainly more gorgeous than she's been on the awards carpets. Mainly because I wasn't feeling her hair.
Paper Mag has just named her to their list of Most Beautiful People. Click here for the article. Amazing skin.
Exclusive photos from PUNKD Images


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Quentin SaulsberryFree Agent
Ht: 6.2 | Wt: 300
News | Stats | Stat vs. Team | Targets | Injury | Depth Chart | Roster
|Broncos | Quentin Saulsberry arrested in May
Mon, 15 Jul 2013 11:05:00 -0700
Denver Broncos OL Quentin Saulsberry was arrested in May and charged with suspicion of driving under the influence. The team was aware of the arrest and spoke with Saulsberry.
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|| Source: The Denver Post - Mike Klis
|Broncos | Expected to add Quintin Saulsberry to PS
Sun, 02 Sep 2012 19:42:58 -0700
The Denver Broncos are expected to fill out their practice squad by signing free-agent C Quentin Saulsberry (Vikings) Monday, Sept. 3.
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|| Source: The Denver Post - Mike Klis
|Vikings | 15 players cut
Fri, 31 Aug 2012 19:36:10 -0700
The Minnesota Vikings waived WR Emmanuel Arceneaux, DT Chase Baker, OG Chris Degeare, FB Ryan D'Imperio, CB Bobby Felder, RB Lex Hilliard, OG Tyler Holmes, CB Reggie Jones, OT Kevin Murphy, LB Corey Paredes, OG Austin Pasztor, DE Nick Reed, C Quentin Saulsberry, TE Mickey Shuler and RB Jordan Todman Friday, Aug. 31.
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|| Source: KFFL.com
|Vikings | Agree to terms with 15 UDFAs
Sun, 29 Apr 2012 14:00:24 -0700
The Minnesota Vikings have agreed to terms with undrafted free-agent DT Chase Baker (Boise State), RB Derrick Coleman (UCLA), DE Kevin Cyrille (Florida Atlantic), CB Bobby Felder (Nicholls State), WR Kamar Jorden (Bowling Green), DE Eric Latimore (Penn State), LB Tyler Nielsen (Iowa), DE Ernest Owusu (California), LB Corey Paredes (Hawaii), OG Austin Pasztor (Virginia), DT Tydreke Powell (North Carolina), DT Terrell Resonno (Missouri), C Quentin Saulsberry (Mississippi State), OT Darrion Weems (Oregon) and C.C. Whitlock (South Carolina). Terms of the contracts were not disclosed.
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|| Source: Minneapolis Star Tribune - Dan Wiederer


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Welcome to the CRG Discussion Forum!Forum registration problems: Make sure you enter your email correctly and you check your spam box first. *Then* email KurtS2@gmail for help.Classified ads are not allowed on the forum.
Is this car in the DB??
So, no PTB stamp on Van Nuys cars? I learn something new on here every day!


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Volume 19, Number 6
September 2002
By Edward Poll
When to raise fees. Although there is no perfect time to raise fees, use these tests to assess whether it's time you did.
- In big-ticket or break-the-company cases, price doesn't seem to matter. The client's options are limited and the perception of need, and therefore value, is high.
- You have more business than you can handle without expanding but do not want to expand. You may lose a few clients, but you generally won't care because you are already at your desired maximum.
- Clients say your rate or total fee is more than fair. At this point, you can conclude that your fee structure is at the lower end of the fee spectrum in comparison to your competitors. It seems there is room to raise your fees with minimal client resistance.
- Other lawyers send you business because the client won't pay their rates. These lawyers are unwilling to accept the lower fee that the client expects to pay them. Why do you?
Each of these scenarios involves a selection process by the client. Those clients who do not want to pay the higher fee will seek other counsel. Those who value your service regardless of higher fees will remain with you. Accept the fact that some clients will leave if you raise fees, which can create new opportunities:
- With a reduction in your client base, you can work less at the same average revenue.
- You can take on new clients at the higher rate, which raises your average revenue per client.
- You generally will receive or can agree to take only interesting work at the higher rates.
- You will have extra time to upgrade your marketing efforts.
Clearly, a temporary loss in the total number of clients often restabilizes within a short time-and at a higher income level. However, you may want to consider another set of indicators that forecast when raising rates is not the best idea:
- If a client resists a fee increase and the client or the matter being handled is important to you, you may want to obtain an agreement to a fee increase at a certain date in the future.
- If time is of the essence for resolving a particular matter. Your client will see it as attempted extortion.
- You already agreed to a retainer. Most retainers are intended to cover the entire cost of the matter or to cover services on a monthly basis without reference to actual hours. Clients will be annoyed if you say you cannot work any more this month because you have exceeded your original estimate. A retainer is a fixed sum-you keep the difference when you work less than the estimate, and the client benefits when you work more. If the work continues to be out of balance with the retainer for an extended time, raise the issue with your client before increasing the retainer.
How much should you raise fees? Many jurisdictions have specific rules concerning fees. Rule 4-2000 of the California Rules of Professional Conduct, for example, provides that "A member shall not enter into an agreement for, charge or collect an…unconscionable fee." The rule defines unconscionability by saying that all the facts and circumstances existing at the time are to be considered, including the following: amount of the fee in proportion to the value of the services performed; relative sophistication of the member and the client; novelty and difficulty of the questions involved and the skill requisite to perform the legal service properly; likelihood, if apparent to the client, that the acceptance of the particular employment will preclude other employment by the member; amount involved and the results obtained; time limitations imposed by the client or by the circumstances; nature and length of the professional relationship with the client; experience, reputation, and ability of the member or members performing the services; whether the fee is fixed or contingent; time and labor required; and informed consent of the client to the fee.
Assuming your current fee structure passes the conscionability test, modest fee increases will not cause a disciplinary problem. The only remaining issue is whether your fee increase will pass the market test. Other things being equal, the smaller the fee increase, the easier it is for clients to accept. Therefore, a general plan is to increase your fees frequently in modest amounts. Additionally, consider the following factors:
- Growth pattern. As you continue to grow, you can afford to be more selective about clients. Raising fees is a way to let your clients self-select and determine who will get your services.
- Success. Success tends to build on itself, and the results of an ill-advised or unacceptable fee increase can be more easily overcome.
- Strategic plan. Do you want to be known as a low-priced volume leader or a top-of-the-line exclusive legal services provider?
- Nature of your practice and clientele. An economically sound client will be less burdened by increases and accept them more readily.
- Competition. What are the going rates in your geographic and practice areas?
Implementing the hike. The next step is to determine the best way to inform clients of the new fees.
- New clients. This is the safest client base for introducing new fee scales, because of course they have no comparison. It is also a good place to test the waters without being afraid of losing current clients. Do not tell them this is an increased rate-no explanation is required here.
- New matters for existing clients. Start by increasing rates on new matters for existing clients who are not your bread and butter. Be sure to adhere to your jurisdiction's rules covering fee increases for existing clients, which usually involve amending the engagement agreement.
- Major existing clients. After you feel confident with these preliminary forays, roll out your new fee structure to all remaining clients. Always talk personally with clients in advance of a fee increase. One strategy to consider with significant clients is to confirm that your fee increase will fit within their budget. If they say no, consider compromising by maintaining the current fee for a specified time and implementing the increase after that.
- Corporate clients. You may find that, in general, it is best to treat corporate clients differently than individual clients. You must be more sensitive to legal services budgets and more attuned to the politics of the organization and how you operate within it.
Edward Poll is a lawyer and certified management consultant in Los Angeles.
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This article is an abridged and edited version of one that originally appeared on page 36 of Law Practice Management, April 2002 (28:3).