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God Exists: An Open Debate
God Exists: An Open Debate
I believe it is more rational to believe in the existence of God than to deny God exists.
1. There is a consciousness underlying the physical attributes of the universe. This consciousness must have always existed (eternally) and must still exist. This fundamental monistic consciousness I call "God."
2. I make no religious statement about God whatsoever. The only positive statement I make about God is what I stated in #1 above. For the record, I am personally nonreligious.
3. Atheism is the belief that there is no God (as god is described in #1 above) based on a lack of evidence for said God.
Do you agree with me? If not, why not?
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fstratzero (17-10-2012)
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
Hmm... I can't lay down my agreement or disagreement yet. Can you elaborate further on your first statement?
Welcome to science. You're gonna like it here - Phil Plait
Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote: 1. There is a consciousness underlying the physical attributes of the universe. This consciousness must have always existed (eternally) and must still exist. This fundamental monistic consciousness I call "God."
Can you elaborate on this? I think some clarification on your observations used to draw this conclusion will give us a good starting point for debate. For starters, a description of consciousness would be helpful. Is that a deliberate force or action influencing the universe?
I know you have some personal experiences that some may or may not accept as evidence, but it's your statement, so I think it's fair you include them if they're relevant to your point.
If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote: 3. Atheism isFixed.
Other than that, as others have said before, you need to elaborate on #1.
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RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
^ What he said...
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
Statement 1 is a nonsensical statement and is not falsifiable or verifiable (I feel like this road has been traversed before).
Statement 2 is fine I suppose. I can't make any assessment of your religiousness or lack thereof. It stands to reason one could consider themselves a believer in god but not ascribe to a particular religion or set of dogmatic beliefs. The only viable question here is how do you approach the bible? Literally true? Partially true? Collection of myths intended to be parables for morality?
Statement 3 has already been fixed, but to reiterate the point that atheism is a lack of a belief in a god, not the absolute belief in the nonexistence of god. For instance, theist means belief in god, atheist means lacking a belief in god. This works the same way for other things like:
oxic = with oxygen
anoxic = lacking oxygen
aerobic = biological processes that occur in the presence of oxygen
anaerobic = biological processes that occur in the absence of oxygen
biotic = life
abiotic = without life
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17-10-2012, 12:04 PM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2012 12:09 PM by Aseptic Skeptic.)
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote: I believe it is more rational to believe in the existence of God than to deny God exists.
More rational to believe in something that cannot be seen, touched, smelled, tasted, or felt, cannot be measured, demonstrated or proven, and cannot even be agreed upon by the 6+ billion believers who, collectively, believe in thousands of different "god" ideas?
That's more rational than withholding belief until even one of the above conditions can be decided in favor of some god concept?
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote: 1. There is a consciousness underlying the physical attributes of the universe. This consciousness must have always existed (eternally) and must still exist. This fundamental monistic consciousness I call "God."
There is a consciousness? I can't even realistically prove that there is a consciousness in my daughter, my dog, or my neighbor. I'm curious how you know there is a consciousness in the physical attributes of the universe. Have you detected consciousness in gravity? In weak force? In string theory? Which physical attribute has consciousness? Can you demonstrate that? I'd like to have a chat with this consciousness (and it better chat back, at least a little, just so I know it's there) - can you set up a time and place for me to chat with the consciousness that you have detected?
I doubt you have actually found any consciousness other than the one you have made up (or chosen to believe in one that other people have made up).
But if you have, how do you know that this consciousness "must have always existed (eternally)"? Even if there is such a consciousness, which I doubt you have found, but even if you have found it and can set up a conference call for me, how would we know that this consciousness must be eternal?
Call it 'God', call it Buddha, call it Brama, Zeus, Thor, Osirus, Qetzalcouatl, call it the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but until you can demonstrate it, somehow, somewhere, then all you're doing it talking to yourself and making stuff up.
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote: 2. I make no religious statement about God whatsoever. The only positive statement I make about God is what I stated in #1 above. For the record, I am personally nonreligious.
Nonreligious in the sense that you don't go to church? Sure, whatever. But you're not "nonreligious" if you believe an eternal consciousness that underlies the physical attributes of the universe, must always have existed and must still exist.
That's not "nonreligious".
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote: 3. Atheism is the belief that there is no God (as god is described in #1 above) based on a lack of evidence for said God.
Atheism is the lack of belief in any god. I suppose you don't see the difference. To "believe that there is no god" is a belief that cannot be supported. Nobody can prove that there is no god, just like nobody can prove that there is no bigfoot or Loch Ness monster. Choosing to believe in something without proof is silly. Sure, some atheists do that - they've convinced themselves that there is enough counter-evidence against all god claims to take the next step and deny the existence of gods. Fine. They're just as entitled to do that as you are entitled to have your own beliefs - but just because some atheists take this extra step doesn't mean that this is the correct viewpoint of all atheism.
Atheism is simply not believing in any god mythology. That's different than believing no god exists. One way to look at it is that I could tell you that my car is a Rolls Royce. You might not believe me. After all, Rolls Royces are rare and expensive and it's not very probable that I have one. But your lack of belief in my claim of having a Rolls Royce doesn't mean that you deny the existence of Rolls Royces or that you believe there are no Rolls Royces in existence.
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote: Do you agree with me?
Nope. Not a bit.
You could be right (see, that's me NOT believing there is no god), but I doubt it. I have no evidence for it. It seems extremely improbable to me. And before I go jumping on the bandwagon and start believing silly ancient improbable mythology, I'd like to find some reason, some little bit of real evidence, something beyond "hey, here's an ancient, flawed, mistranslated, self-contradicting, morally bankrupt book of fairy tales that tells us to believe in fairy tales."
So hook me up with a face-to-face (or consciousness-to-consciousness) meet and greet with this eternal consciousness that you have found, I'd love to have that chat.
Until then, no, I don't agree with you.
"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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NUMAtrekkie (01-11-2012)
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
1. I would need a clearer definition of "consciousness" and "god", but from what I understand about what you wrote in #1, I would disagree. I have a few problems with the statement.
First, I've never seen any evidence that consciousness is eternal. In fact, I've only seen evidence to the contrary. From what we can observe, it appears that consciousness is most definitely NOT eternal. We can observe this by looking at death. When things die, their consciousness ceases. I have yet to see anything that would indicate otherwise.
Second, proving "god" exists is easy if you're going to randomly redefine it as you see fit. I can prove god exists too, so long as you accept my definition of god as being a synonym for "housefly".
Third, consciousness as I understand it, exists only within living things. This may be incorrect, but it's what we understand about consciousness in the present day. If we accept that (and we don't have to, but it would at least make the topic possible to discuss) then we also have to accept that consciousness MAY not be universal, since we still have not observed life or consciousness outside of earth. This to me indicates that consciousness is pre leant on earth, and may possibly exist universally, but without actual evidence, it's a conclusion I am unwilling to draw at this time.
2. Agree 100%. #2 is a statement about what you believe. I agree that you believe that.
3. Sort of agree. I understand what you are getting at, but as an atheist, I tend to nitpick at the wording. I'd say Vosur edited the statement fairly well to reflect what an atheist is, although I would also omit the part in parenthesis entirely. I would replace it with, "as god is commonly defined" since there is some questions about the definition of god in #1.
So many cats, so few good recipes.
17-10-2012, 12:08 PM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2012 08:05 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote: There is a consciousness underlying the physical attributes of the universe.
Please define "consciousness".
What do you mean by "underlying" ?
re #3. No. Dismissal of claims, is not a positive assertion of anything.
If that were true then you actively, positively, believe there is no 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto.
It's just so ridiculous any further consideration after the dismissal, is meaningless.
The dictionary defines a broad and narrow definition. You are denying the common usage.
You can define words for yourself, you cannot change the meanings for yourself, and then impose that definition on others.
BTW folks. Ed, (Egor), I have come to see, values our input, greatly. He comes off "snarky" sometimes, but these are "clarification dialogues" for himself. He's not here to convert us. He may say something, but he WANTS us to rationally, carefully, shoot things down, (or not), in order to think about things for himself. He's a good guy, and I presume good-faith here. He's been badly behaved in the past, sometimes, but so have I.
Insufferable know-it-all. It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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lightninlives (17-10-2012)
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
1. Evidence for the consciousness, please? How do you know this? What is this? Why is this necessary?
2. I am not religious either.
3. I don't 'believe' there is no God. Atheism is simply a lack of belief. (Seriously, someone should tally up how many times this has been said here- Shannow?)
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How I Met Your Mother Revealed the Mother
Spoilers ahead, duh.
Now you know, HIMYM fans. After eight seasons and 184 episodes, you finally know. You don't know much yet — like how Ted Mosby actually met his children's mother, or anything about her, but you know who she is. If you were hoping for someone big and famous, you might be nursing a sting of disappointment. ("The whole idea is that Ted's never seen this woman before, so it better feel that way to the audience," series co-creator Craig Thomas tells EW.) But if you were hoping for someone lovely, you've got reason to be thrilled. Watch the spoilery reveal after the jump.
That's her, Cristin Milioti, as introduced by the Shins's "Simple Song." She was nominated for a Tony for Broadway's Once. Milioti appeared on an episode of 30 Rock, when she told Liz Lemon she's a very sexy baby. You may have also seen her on Nurse Jackie, in Mike Birbiglia's Sleepwalk with Me, and on The Sopranos as Johnny Sack's daughter, Catherine Sacrimoni. We can now assume that when Craig Thomas promised the final season would feature a new device and said "you're never going to mistake a season nine episode from one of the previous eight," he meant the mother will be a major character.

subset: commoncrawl


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Geldin was recently recognized for excellence in Arts Administration from the Governor's Awards for the Arts in Ohio. The award will be given on May 21, 2014.
Notes Leslie H. Wexner, "On the occasion of Sherri's 20th year at the center and of the center's upcoming 25th anniversary, this fund amplifies and reaffirms Sherri's exemplary work at the Wexner Center and ensures the center's vision and mission will not only be strengthened, but fulfilled for years to come."
Says Alutto, "Sherri has helped establish one of the world's leading multidisciplinary arts institutions right at the center of The Ohio State University. This has occurred through her relentless pursuit of important programming and collaborations that often begin here in Columbus, yet reach around the globe. These funds ensure that Sherri's creative originality will continue to establish Ohio State as a focal point in the arts and aid the Wexner Center in realizing its visionary mission through her tenure and beyond."
Geldin has been director of the Wexner Center since September 1993, and prior to that served for many years as associate director of The Museum of Contemporary Art, Los Angeles.


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But when New Scooters 4 Less submitted the required zoning compliance application to the Gainesville Planning Department, it was denied. A provision within the 340-page land-use code equates scooters to motorcycles, an auto-oriented business that at the time was only allowed in the business automotive zoning along North Main Street and a few other specific locations.
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By way of example, he said his business with a clean showroom and a maintenance area in the back would not be allowed in the same 34th Street Sweetbay Supermarket shopping center that includes an auto parts store.
Unbeknownst to Austin at the time, a competitor had already applied for a zoning change to allow scooter sales in high-density business areas such as those in and around downtown and some commercial corridors. The City Commission approved the zoning change at its meeting later that week.
Erik Bredfeldt, economic development and innovation director, said the code change process started several months ago after he met with the competitor and told him "the only way we could deal with the issue is to go to the powers that be and say, 'Are you comfortable with us, with the staff moving forward on a change to the code?' "
Bredfeldt said he also told New Scooter's Realtor Dave Ferro that changes in the works to the Butler Plaza Planned Development might allow scooter sales if the business could "hold out a little while."
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Apparently I'm a satan worshipper (Omegle)
You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You and the stranger both like Religion.
Stranger: Hello
You: Hi there
Stranger: Whats up?
You: Are you religious?
Stranger: I am
Stranger: You?
You: Not at all. Would you like to discuss about religion?
Stranger: What about?
You: Well, for example, why do you believe?
Stranger: Well, being Catholic, I read about Miracles and such.... And I felt compelled to believe
You: Where have you read about miracles?
Stranger: What about you?
You: I don't believe in any god because there is no rational reason to do so
Stranger: I have read stuff on the Lady of Fatima and the incorruptable saints.
You: There are scientific explanations for that
Stranger: Where?
You: Give me a second so that I can provide you with a source
Stranger: Only God can make such things.
Stranger: Through the power of the Holy Spirit
You: http://bigthink.com/ideas/phenomenon-inc...d?page=all
Stranger: Plus, The Church investigates the miracles, so they can certify it being real.
You: The church is majorly biased
Stranger: Says you.
You: Of course they will certify that their own claims are true, but it takes other people to verify it as well
Stranger: Based on what method?
You: Investigation, research, etc.
For example: parts of the bodies of these saints are made out of wax
Stranger: God only reveals things in the Church, so its expected to have science, or the Satan Worshippers not find a Holy explination.
Stranger: So, you can't trust science for miracles.
You: That's the point. "Holy" explanations are neither rational nor logical if they can't be verified by science.
Stranger: Its sad to see you worship Science as your God, turn to Jesus
You: Science is not a god, science is method of researching and learning about our universe
Stranger: .... That's right..... My bad.
Stranger: Satan is your God.
You: I don't believe that Satan exists, just like I don't believe that God exists
Stranger: Are you an atheist?
You: An agnostic atheist
Stranger: HEATHEN!
Stranger: Tell me, how do you know there isn't a God.
Stranger: You arrogant child.
You: I think you don't know what agnostic atheism is
You: We don't know whether or not there is a god, that is the point
Stranger: Atheism is the Denial of God, the willingness to worship Satan.
You: The dictionary definition:
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
You: Satan is a surpreme being as well
Stranger: Aha! So you admit Satan is your Supreme Being, which reveals you do believe in God, since you can't believe in Satan without God.
You: What are you talking about? Satan is a surpreme being, not my surpreme being. Atheists do not believe that any being like satan and god exist.
Your conversational partner has disconnected.
Logical fallacies:
Argument from ignorance
Argumentum ad hominem
Appeal to authority
Appeal to emotion
Confirmation bias
Texas Sharpshooter
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RE: Apparently I'm a satan worshipper (Omegle)
Awh, I imagine this stranger to be a girl... don't know why... but I also imagine her to be a sweet little Christee retard who thinks she's won an argument with an atheist because she hung up first.
So... I now bestow angel farts upon her. *********************** ************************
****************** ------------------ ************ ---------------
A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-07-2012, 12:08 AM (This post was last modified: 29-07-2012 12:12 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Apparently I'm a satan worshipper (Omegle)
Trolling Christians just don't seem that much fun to me since you're just casting for mullet.
There is but one truly serious philosophical problem. - Camus
29-07-2012, 12:11 AM (This post was last modified: 29-07-2012 12:15 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Apparently I'm a satan worshipper (Omegle)
What a coincidence. I searched for a new conversation partner after that and I had the opportunity to talk to her again. It's much longer than the first one, which is why I put it in spoilers.
Logical fallacies:
You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You and the stranger both like Religion.
You: Hi
Stranger: Hello
You: Are you religious?
Stranger: Yeah, Catholic.
Stranger: You?
Stranger: Please tell me not a atheist..... I was having a discussion with a nasty Satan Worshipper before, and he disconnected.
You: I think you're the one I talked to a few minutes ago - it's a shame you disconnected
Stranger: ......
Stranger: ......
You: Quite a coincidence, huh?
Stranger: God must want me to preach to you.
You: Exactly
Stranger: So you turn from your sinning ways
Stranger: So, Demon. Have you come to test my faith?
You: Yes, indeed
You: Although I'm not a demon
Stranger: Jesus is the Word, and his flesh became the Word
Stranger: Therefore the Word is reliable.
Stranger: Since the Word is the Bible, the Bible is reliable
You: That's circular reasoning
You: And every other religion can use it
You: The Qu'ran is true because the Qu'ran says so
You: The Thora is true because the Thora says so
Stranger: The Koran is false
Stranger: The Torah is incomplete
You: How do you know that the Qu'ran is false?
Stranger: Because Jesus is the Word
Stranger: And the Word is the Bible
You: The Bible never mentions the Qu'ran being false
You: Because it didn't exist until about 600 years later
Stranger: The Bible says Jesus was the Messiah, the Koran does not.
Stranger: Since the Koran denies that obvious fact, it is false
You: The Bible also says that our earth is about 6.000-10.000 years old
Stranger: It is.
You: It's not. It has been proven to be about 4 billion years old with the help of radiometric dating
Stranger: With your "Method" science.
Stranger: With the head preist being SATAN
You: People who do not believe in god are not organized, religious people are
Stranger: So you admit your not Organized and Civil- Proof you have no morals without religion.
You: Are you serious?
Stranger: Did Jesus die on the Cross?.... Yes I am serious.
Stranger: I want to save you from the fires of hell.
You: Have you ever heard about Poe's Law?
Stranger: .
Stranger: ?
You: "Poe's Law is an axiom suggesting that it's difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish between parodies of religious or other fundamentalism and its genuine proponents, since they both seem equally insane."
Stranger: ....
Stranger: Satanic reasoning...
Stranger: No wonder u are rude!
Stranger: Please turn to Jesus!
You: I am rude? You're the one calling me a heathen
Stranger: I have a question: Why would you gamble your sole on their being no God.
You: Pascal's Wager?
Stranger: Believe and if its true, Heaven. If it isn't nothing.
Stranger: Why deny Jesus?
Stranger: Its a winning bet.
You: Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. What if Islam is the right religion?
Stranger: Its not, because Jesus is the Word, and The Word was flesh.
Stranger: And the Word is the Bible.
You: Muslim people say the exact same things about their book of faith
Stranger: Since the Koran is conflicting with the Bible, it isn't true.
You: The Bible is conflicting with the Koran, therefore it isn't true
You: See how that works out?
Stranger: But the Bible is true!
You: You have no way of knowing that
Stranger: I do know it! The miracles!
You: ... are disproven by science
Stranger: The healings, the Lady of Fatima, the Lady of Lourdes!
Stranger: The millions of people who believe!
You: Has there ever been an amputee who was miraculously heal?
Stranger: They can't be wrong!
You: A few hundred years ago, the overwhelming majority thought that the earth was flat
Stranger: But God revealed to them the truth!
Stranger: By allowing the persons to sail!
You: It's the Bible who claims that the earth is flat
Stranger: Its metaphor
You: How do you know?
Stranger: Because it isn't true
Stranger: Therefore it must be a metaphor
You: Do you think that the story of Adam and Eve is true?
Stranger: Because the people of back then were retards?
Stranger: Yes,
Stranger: I believe in Adam and Eve.
You: Even though it has been disproven to the same amount that the hypothesis that the earth is flat has been disproven?
Stranger: God reveals the Truth only through the Church, so Science is wrong.
You: It was the church that denied the claim that the earth is round
You: They admitted it about 60 years ago
You: Even though the theory had been established hundreds of years before that
Stranger: Science is wrongl
Stranger: The church is right.
Stranger: Its the only thing that keeps me from becoming a Satan Worshipper and an immoral person, like you.
You: Non-religious people are not immoral
You: Do you know how many non-religious organizations that help people are there?
Stranger: Where do their Morality come from, if not from Jesus
You: Evolution
Stranger: Evolution is false
Stranger: God controls everything
Stranger: Except for people
Stranger: They were granted free will.
You: And how do you know that?
Stranger: The Bible
You: The Bible doesn't say that you have free will
Stranger: ....
Stranger: The Pope
You: The Pope doesn't say so either
Stranger: ....
Stranger: ...
Stranger: We have free will!
You: The Bible tells you to believe the opposite, you're being a heretic
Stranger: Why are you argueing for non free will?
You: Science.
Stranger: Have you accepted Jesus, or have you still embraced Satan?
You: Neither of them
You: Because there is no evidence for the existence of both of them
You: But back to my question, why do you believe something that contradicts what is written in the Bible?
Stranger: Prove they don't exist!
Stranger: Then I will believe you!
You: First you'll have to answer my question
Stranger: Because God Graced me with Free will!
Stranger: Therefore Free will exists!
You: The Bible says you have no free will, therefore you have no free will
Stranger: Free will exists.
You: Also, how am I supposed to prove the non-existence of a non-physical being with the tools that are available in our physical realm?
Stranger: I hope you burn in Hell.
Your conversational partner has disconnected.
Argument from ignorance
Argumentum ad hominem
Appeal to emotion
Appeal to popularity
Begging the question
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RE: Apparently I'm a satan worshipper (Omegle)
(29-07-2012 12:11 AM)Vosur Wrote: What a coincidence. I searched for a new conversation partner after that and I had the opportunity to talk to her again. It's much longer than the first one, which is why I put it in spoilers.
And now you've gone from trolling the mullet to taunting it. You kill it you eat it.
There is but one truly serious philosophical problem. - Camus
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RE: Apparently I'm a satan worshipper (Omegle)
(28-07-2012 11:11 PM)Vosur Wrote: Stranger: Satan is your God.
Son, you done and got yoself pwnd!
It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness
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RE: Apparently I'm a satan worshipper (Omegle)
Wow! A third time. It's getting more and more hilarious. She's really unlucky because I'm supposedly the only one using the same interests in my search.
You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You and the stranger both like Religion.
Stranger: Hello
You: Hi there
Stranger: Are you religious?
Stranger: I need some faith strengthining
Stranger: I just encountered a demon twice
You: Three times, actually.
Stranger: He tried to debate.
Stranger: :O
You: God wants me to test you
Stranger: Shit....
Stranger: It must be God's will.
You: Then why are you resisting?
Stranger: Because I have free will
You: Didn't we establish that you actually don't?
Stranger: Its faith
Stranger: I choose to believe in free will.
Stranger: Since I side with God, I can't be wring
Stranger: Wrong*
You: Faith is believing in something without evidence
Stranger: Science is faith as well
You: Science is based on evidene, research and rational thinking
You: *evidence
Stranger: Evidence can be wrong.
Stranger: Evidence is influenced by Satan, lord of lies.
Stranger: Turn your heart to God, and believe in the only information you need, Catholicism
You: Sure, evidence can be wrong
You: But the evidence for, for example, Evolution, is not
Stranger: Hahahahaha!
Stranger: You admited science is wrong!
You: For example, the evidence for God is wrong
Stranger: Therefore religion is correctz,
You: I didn't say that science is wrong, I said that evidence can be false
Stranger: Religion has been around longer than science.
Stranger: Why would you keep it around if it was false.
You: That's a logical fallacy
You: "It's true because it's older"
You: Jewism is older than Christianity
Stranger: God is not logical
Stranger: Jews are evil.
You: Jesus was a jew
Stranger: Lies!
Stranger: He was born the messiah.
Stranger: Not a jew.
You: >Jews are evil
>Jesus was a Jew
>Jesus was evil
You: He can be both the Messiah and a jew
You: In fact, he was supposedly the Messiah of the jewish religion
Stranger: ... Were u an ex-catholic?
Stranger: Were you religious*
You: I used to be a baptist
Stranger: Ahhh...
Stranger: Then you weren't a REAL christian, no wonder you worship Satan now.
You: That's a logical fallacy, the "no true scotsman fallacy", to be exact
Stranger: ....fuck your fallacies.
Stranger: Doesn't mean its not true,
You: Actually, it does
Stranger: .....
Stranger: ....
Stranger: ....
You: "In this form of faulty reasoning one's belief is rendered unfalsifiable because no matter how compelling the evidence is, one simply shifts the goalposts so that it wouldn't apply to a supposedly 'true' example. This kind of post-rationalization is a way of avoiding valid criticisms of one's argument."
Stranger: I'll pray for you
Your conversational partner has disconnected.
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DeepThought (29-07-2012), aurora (02-08-2012)
RE: Apparently I'm a satan worshipper (Omegle)
Oh wow this shit is hilarious Rofl.
RE: Apparently I'm a satan worshipper (Omegle)
Quote:Stranger: They were granted free will.
RE: Apparently I'm a satan worshipper (Omegle)
Fuck it, Ima gonna give it a go.
There is but one truly serious philosophical problem. - Camus
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Filox (30-07-2012)
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RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
I don't know how well travelled you are and whether you have had friendships and friendly interactions with people on all levels of society in different cultures - I have. I also have taken courses and read a lot of sociology, psychology, and the very interesting cultural anthropology. At one point I was thinking of finding a career in one of these, but in trying to finance this I ended up on a different track.
So it's been a very long time since I studied these things and I haven't kept up with advances at all. Probably what I can recall is outdated. But what isn't outdated is my vast experience with people from all kinds of cultures and walks of life.
Most of the world's population's experience with other people is on a very limited scope. Family, colleagues, local vendors etc. In cities it really isn't that much better - you see a ton of people on the streets - but you rarely exchange a word with them except for basic polite interactions. You know nothing about them. Some go to bars and clubs etc, a little interaction there but all confined to an assigned level.
Most people don't know shit about others and what makes them tick. Everyone has theories about it. In less evolved societies these theories and opinions are often completely baseless, made up, superstitious reflections of themselves and their relatives and anecdotal history. More advanced societies do a little better, but not all that much.
Apart from the physical impossibility of creating a world society of affluence overnight, you are going to have a heck of a time bringing all of these people, their ideologies and prejudices on board with any one idea.
I am not categorically opposed to communism (which this is) or anarchy or a libertarian society - but they don't seem to work because they ignore the human nature that has evolved for eons and can't wiped out and replaced just because it's rational to do so. They are intellectual theories that sound good but fail in application. Maybe eventually humanity will advance enough to be able to adopt one of these, but it isn't now, not by a long shot.
We are all animals after all. We are hardwired with fight or flight impulses, with some people these are exxagerated or faulty. We have hormones like adrenaline exacerbating these hard wired reactions. Religions exist for a reason - people's need for a simple explanation and framework. You can't wipe out culturally ingrained behaviors and thought processes all at once, nor in the course of a couple of generations.
There would be countless bastions of resistance. Possibly, but not necessarily, hostile opposition.
In short: Humans would have to evolve a lot more for this to work. You can't take short cuts in evolution.
And that is not even starting to take into account that it would be physically very daunting to bring such a freebie society into existance.
It's good and fine to think about alternate cultural models, if everyone did we would be better for it all around. But these ideologies and ideas fail in applicability at the time.
With the new world wide communication available online cultural advances may be speeding up now. In a generation or so, most everyone will be online and able to interact with people from all corners of the world and learn to understand them. Maybe then a decent foundation for world peace ( a prerequisite for your model) and societal evolution will be easier to form.
But we ain't there yet.
Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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28-12-2012, 09:05 AM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2012 09:12 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(28-12-2012 06:01 AM)Dom Wrote: I don't know how well travelled you are and whether you have had friendships and friendly interactions with people on all levels of society in different cultures - I have. I also have taken courses and read a lot of sociology, psychology, and the very interesting cultural anthropology. At one point I was thinking of finding a career in one of these, but in trying to finance this I ended up on a different track.I am blind and ignorant to the mainstream social world. I can only understand people in very close up psychologic analysis or from afar, in terms of global sociologic interactions. This is why I bring a very new fresh look into society, I have to, that's all I have. I am a perceiver of patterns, a thinker in patterns. The social world obeys similar laws as the rest of nature, there are equivalents and correspondences to a life cycle or flow of water and electricity, for example. By observing and using these principles we hope to bring the science of society nearer the standard and benefits that we have from other sciences. This process of course requires to translate these principles as closely as possible into real world solutions. (this is perhaps why I am a student of public administration at the moment)
(28-12-2012 06:01 AM)Dom Wrote: Most of the world's population's experience with other people is on a very limited scope. Family, colleagues, local vendors etc. In cities it really isn't that much better - you see a ton of people on the streets - but you rarely exchange a word with them except for basic polite interactions. You know nothing about them. Some go to bars and clubs etc, a little interaction there but all confined to an assigned level.As you can guess, I have a theory too. Better said, I construct a theory using other theories (and science) as building blocks or raw resources. It requires a very broad mind and pattern-seeking abilities, but I happen to have that, if not much else.
(28-12-2012 06:01 AM)Dom Wrote: Apart from the physical impossibility of creating a world society of affluence overnight, you are going to have a heck of a time bringing all of these people, their ideologies and prejudices on board with any one idea.Not overnight, ten years at least. It's purely a technical and scientific problem and we already have the solution, it's only a question of political will to apply it. Fresco is an engineer and he wouldn't say it if it wasn't possible. Today there is actually about 10% surplus of food on the planet, only it is unevenly distributed and mostly wasted. For example, in America 50 % of all food is thrown away. In the rest of the world the percentage is lower, but not by much. Furthermore, USA uses 5 times as much of energy per capita than any other nation. The resources are not rare. They're abundant, but they are being stolen and wasted. If you realize that, RBE makes perfect sense.
As for the people, it is not necessary nor possible to convince everyone. 1 billion of people should be enough and there is about 1.8 billion of people ready for a change, perhaps more. They are the people so disillusioned and dissatisfied with the current system, that they are ready to renounce their ideologies and prejudices for the sake of a new system. We can not see that directly, because the media do not represent the world objectively. There never is a natural order, but two orders, old and new. The old order is not getting any newer, it has its own problems. The new order is comparatively almost as strong in hearts and minds of people. Our today's situation resembles a stalemate, not hopelessness. There never was as much good and as much evil in the world as it is today. The world is polarized, what was before inchoate and indeterminate, today is clearer and more definite, grain is separated from the chaff. Good people are better and bad people are worse. In such a situation, great changes are possible and very likely. It puts the "Arab Spring" into perspective, together with less known recent political revolutions in states of Europe and perhaps even the fall of the Berlin wall or revolt against the Vietnam war.
(28-12-2012 06:01 AM)Dom Wrote: I am not categorically opposed to communism (which this is) or anarchy or a libertarian society - but they don't seem to work because they ignore the human nature that has evolved for eons and can't wiped out and replaced just because it's rational to do so. They are intellectual theories that sound good but fail in application. Maybe eventually humanity will advance enough to be able to adopt one of these, but it isn't now, not by a long shot.
What opposition? Who could possibly be opposed to receiving the things promised in Universal declaration of human rights, the food, water, housing, healthcare, education and peace? Everyone wants these things and everyone deserves them. This is something that a whole planet can agree on, except a few crazies or Taliban extremists. Is that correct?
Hey, wait a moment. Nothing is hard-wired in the brain, nothing conscious. If we can get conscious of something, we can change it. Fight or flight response is controlled among the first, making civilization possible. Some yogis of the East even control muscles, organs and brain in ways unimaginable to medicine of the West.
I see a greater pattern and general principles of human affairs. What you see as failures, for example an acceptance of Communism or gullibility to religion, I see as a receptivity, responsiveness, the great read-write-copy-perform ability of human brain. If people are capable of following a faulty ideology, they will just as well be able to follow objective principles of society.
- Of course we have some solid knowledge as to how to build a society. The words of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Gandhi and others are no less valid or no less needed than they ever were. Society is basically a huge machine of changing the people. A bad society corrupts people and forces them existentially down to the base instincts. A good society brings people up and refines their virtues. Most of societies don't do all that much of either, but rather vegetate or give people just one kind of a lesson. The lesson of the current society is, that it's old and dying, eaten through by money and greed and we need a new, better one and we need it fast.
- Of course you can't expect all people to program themselves, not with anything meaningful. The programming that is philosophy, politics, art and others are serious disciplines that must be performed by competent experts. The reception, understanding, translation and presentation of ideas is entirely a man-made process, an artificial one. It is usually done by extraordinary people with significant charisma and influence, they are the creators of the culture of the nation and may become the programmers of people's minds. (the greatest of which is the American president, just after Oprah )
- Of course I can wipe culturally ingrained behaviors! It's called a generational revolt! People can sharply change a direction opposite to their parents. Specially the young ones. The old ones often can't.
(28-12-2012 06:01 AM)Dom Wrote: In short: Humans would have to evolve a lot more for this to work. You can't take short cuts in evolution.Evolve how? There are two evolutions, the evolution of genes and the evolution of consciousness. The first one is really slow and we're on about the same level with all people. Yet there are vast differences in people's behavior.
(28-12-2012 06:01 AM)Dom Wrote: And that is not even starting to take into account that it would be physically very daunting to bring such a freebie society into existance.Not more daunting than to go into a world war. And we never had any problem with that, not material, logistical, political... The present crisis is just as great justification for such an undertaking, it demands a war of its own, a war against the extreme poverty and inequality that kills more people yearly than any war ever did.
(28-12-2012 06:01 AM)Dom Wrote: It's good and fine to think about alternate cultural models, if everyone did we would be better for it all around. But these ideologies and ideas fail in applicability at the time.Doesn't matter, who was ever ready? When anyone ever got any guarantees beforehand? We were ready after WW2, only people thought they have time. 10 years ago we were ready to meet Millenium Development Goals. It is not a question of readiness, but of political will. As long as there is a time, there is a time for politicians to do nothing, get richer and waste resources. It is perhaps better not to have time. Maybe it sounds crazy, but I thought you like crazy
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
Well, we could debate this for years, which I am not about to do. I was just curious.
IMO you still fail to understand human nature.
You bring a billion people on board, then ask me to join and I'll have another look at how it's panning out.
My bet is that you can't get a billion. And that is simply because the world is not ready for world peace.
Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(28-12-2012 09:42 AM)Dom Wrote: Well, we could debate this for years, which I am not about to do. I was just curious.Yeah, we could debate, but I always prefer we move somewhere with each post.
I see such a variety of types of people that what you describe as a human nature isn't a majority at all. It just doesn't fit, what you say. I think you'd benefit from some falsification of your worldview.
You seem to me focused on one particular class of people, which is much unlike most of people I know. I come from a broad loose group of spiritual folks. They're not intellectuals, but they're not crude people either. And they don't suppress any natural wild instincts, we naturally sit and sing Kum Ba Yah (proverbially, in fact, we sing mantras). They're not exceptions, local halls of spiritual lecturers hold hundreds of them at a time. I don't know where you got the extensive life experience you have, but as my people would say, we attract people that we resonate with.
Let me ask you, if you got to know such people personally (call it evidence), would you change your opinion on human nature? Not that spiritual stuff, but that human nature is to adopt any nature we grow into.
(28-12-2012 09:42 AM)Dom Wrote: You bring a billion people on board, then ask me to join and I'll have another look at how it's panning out.Do you realize how absurd that sounds? It means nothing, changes nothing. What are we supposed to do, if not peace? Are we supposed to stop and wait till we're evolved and to print more money to have something to play with until then? What does it mean that a world is not ready for world peace? What are we ready for and who decides that, how do we know? Were we ready for women's voting rights, for the end of apartheid, for legalization of gay marriage? We certainly weren't ready to end the slavery, there was a freakin' dozen or so American states in which it worked quite nicely. It took a freakin' bloody civil war to make them stop. Would you tell Grant, Lincoln and Darwin (anti-slavery activist himself), wait, we're not evolved enough to stop slavery? Would you tell George Washington and Thomas Jefferson that we're not evolved enough to live without the supervision of the British Empire? What about the nuclear bomb, should we consult our evolution experts before developing this technology? As I said, it's absurd, we got to do what we have to do.
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(28-12-2012 05:13 PM)Luminon Wrote:(28-12-2012 09:42 AM)Dom Wrote: Well, we could debate this for years, which I am not about to do. I was just curious.Yeah, we could debate, but I always prefer we move somewhere with each post.
The people you know sound like the hippies I used to hang with long ago. Peaceful, friendly folk who sit around and sing and talk. If only everyone was like that!
It took gays from the seventies to now to gain recognition. Women fought for women's rights to vote for decades. Ditto for Apartheid. These things don't happen overnight, they take decades of risky and devoted work, being ridiculed by the public and fighting on anyway.
As long as there are wars all over the globe, we're not having world peace. What are you going to do, go to the various countries and plead with them to make peace? How do you practically propose to get this baby off the ground?
Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
29-12-2012, 06:06 PM (This post was last modified: 30-12-2012 04:01 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(28-12-2012 06:21 PM)Dom Wrote: The people you know sound like the hippies I used to hang with long ago. Peaceful, friendly folk who sit around and sing and talk. If only everyone was like that!Everyone can make peace, anywhere in the world. Interventions may be necessary in places like Congo or even Serbia/Albania, but they are militarily speaking a common kind of mission. The real problem, the focus of perpetual conflict in the world is, as you can guess, Palestine and its conquest by Israel. As long as there is the conflict of Israel, there can not be peace on Earth.
This is not just a dispute of who was there first. It's like the worst of our civilization threw in their lot with Israel. Specially the weapon traders, oil industry, Evangelical apocalyptics, East coast Sionist lobby and all the think tanks and politicians they can buy. They all get a lot of profit from that conflict, plus of course many Arab dictators around who sell weapons and oil too.
This indirectly points at a greater global need. When it comes to trade and business, it is a good thing but never at the detriment of the mentioned five basic human needs. To achieve a truly efficient and balanced distribution of world's resources and materials, they must be internationally shared through a method of transparent, sophisticated barter. The current method is based on speculation for the sole purpose of personal wealth and power, which causes
- extreme surplus of food in economically powerful states
- extreme poverty and hunger in economically weak states
- extreme influence of few speculating gamblers on stock markets on food and commodity prices (plus greater instability due to climate changes)
- monetary profits of speculation that do not contribute anything to the global public, as money are purely a social/political construct.
It is clear that the market fails here. However, we can't just take the resources and dump them somewhere. For example, EU has a heavily subsidized farming industry (almost a half of the budget, used to be up to 80 %!) which necessarily produces a large surplus. (due to heavy lobbying, despite of the fact that most farmers are actually paid NOT to produce food!) There were cases of large-scale destroying the food back in 96 or so, but due to the public pressure I think now they're shipping it to Africa. The problem is, the farmers there can't resist the inflow of european food with their farming, so they can't earn money, so they can't buy the shipped food anyway, nor build the local economy. They usually end up on Spanish farms growing lettuce for McDonald's and KFC.
Here you see another example of how money stop being the useful instrument they always were and become and impediment in access to the vital resources.
There are people who advocate a lesser, greater or gradual sharing of world resources, of course in a transparent and sophisticated way. For a beginning, we know there is the industrial surplus. The idea is to take that surplus and register it. Every nation should make a list of surplus resources. Then every nation should make a list of resources that it lacks. Then some special organization under the U.N. should keep track of it all and coordinate the information on what to send where in what amount.
Gradually this amount of shared resources should increase from mere surplus (that is often let to rot anyway in warehouses, so it doesn't decrease a market price) to all produced resources. This is how the resources will be declared a common heritage of all humanity and not a personal property. Because our whole glorious science of economy with all the wise heads and economy books is based on freebie resources from the nature. Labor adds to the price, but if human labor costs too much, replace it with machines who work relatively cheaply. They say, sell it as you bought it. (0,-)
Of course, the main, large-scale forms of financial speculation must be forbidden. Money is a socially-political construct and has no value on its own. It must be entirely regulated in an interest-free way by national central banks. For the time that they will exist at all, they must exist only in the amount used to exchange goods and services, which is about 5% of the monetary reserves of today. So even if the national banks print money according to the need, there'd be far less money in existence. I'm in favor of the interest-free currency, that does not grow in volume, similarly to how the body uses blood, a constant amount of it. However, the choice of local currencies that lose value over time is an interesting one and proven in practice, it prevents accumulation of wealth, speeds up economy and gives more control to the national bank over the overall money supply.
Of course, third world debts must be forgiven. They are anyway mostly a result of international usury practices, getting the nations into debt. The economically-financial institutions of today are self-appointed instruments of power and inherent inequality, causing injustice and provoking much violence. Remember, the Islamic terrorists on the September 11 did not target a church building, not even a megachurch. They targeted a center of world trade. They could kill more people, they could send a religious message. But they chose the symbol of economic supremacy as their target. Why should the world have a trade center at all, except to dominate it?
If you are concerned about how the common resources should and shouldn't be managed, I'd readily admit ignorance and point our attention to study of a book like this - Governing of Commons by Elinor Ostrom. It is not my plan to re-invent the wheel or to slap my copyright on everything or to fail. The world is full of know-how and instruments, only people are narrow-minded and they see every single instrument as a world solution in itself and so apply it far beyond its area of usefulness.
31-12-2012, 05:53 PM (This post was last modified: 31-12-2012 05:57 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(27-12-2012 09:58 PM)Ghost Wrote: I'm with you. The idea that humanity is flawed and irredeemably greedy and blah blah blah, is a salvationist notion that was unfortunately taken up by Les Philosophes of the Enlightenment. It's crap.Yes, this is what I see as a space that RBE leaves for the freedom and creativity of people. It creates a better environment for beneficial conditioning of people, which is basically what a good upbringing and culture means. It's not just technology, the resources and bibliography that Fresco draws from are heavily based on genetic research and social sciences. It correctly points at all the ways to do things if you really want them done.
But as for the creativity itself, I think we really need to sum up some basic socially-humanistic commandments
Two commandments are
1) Thou shalt maintain harmony with other people and the environment.
Harmony means a dynamic equilibrium that balances out the inequalities, not dividing everything equally 50/50, that would be a dead stalemate. Don't be a dick, be sincere, fair and faithful, use only what you need, share the rest... But if you want to be truly free, you have to use that freedom for service. There's no better use for a freedom but a service, a contribution to the world. By using freedom for gratification of personality we need some kind of borders so we don't descend into decadent and stagnant hedonism, but if you lose yourself in service, you can be free in whatever you do, you don't need the limitations for ego, the laws, because you are the law and the ego is completely devoted to it. Very few people today reach that way of living.
2) Thou shalt develop your potential to the fullest.
Developing our potential is basically building our personality, our ego. A big, strong ego is how we get things done in this world. Ego should not be broken or diminished except to bring it closer to the commandment 1. As the ego grows, it should gradually undergo development that bring it more to the general contribution to society using its talent and perhaps according to what the society needs, that is service. (which believe it or not, can be actually a great fun, once you get the hang of it)
This system needs to get going, so we reach a so-called golden age, a sustainable society, in which basic needs are met and there's a plenty of freedom for creativity. Because, the human kingdom has a special function that it needs to start doing. We humans are receivers of inspiration and ideas from... let's say higher philosophic worlds - like Plato's "world of forms" for example - and we are supposed to put these ideas into practice in a most authentic way. We are here to enrich the material world according to our best ideas into art for example, but not limited to art, any personal expression, from genetically modified plants or pets to a useful institution or a club. Living aware of this higher world of meaning, discovering it, expressing it, that's a great joy and yet they are essentially immaterial values, that we bring into material manifestation. It is like we would speed up and direct the animal and plant evolution alongside ours. Our evolution of consciousness, mainly. Society is a machine of transforming people, let's build ours to do the job well, to transform them to go upwards on Maslow's pyramid of values and not downwards.
(27-12-2012 09:58 PM)Ghost Wrote: Scarcity is a reality of existence that Our culture's system obfuscates and shelters us from. Scarcity is normal. Unlimited supply is a total aberration, and not one that can be sustained.Technically, scarcity isn't normal. Our ancestors rather lived at the areas and numbers that their environment allowed. They lived with the cycles of nature and moved where the food was. Everyone else died off. Or they lived all the time among their fields. There wasn't scarcity, the people lived as well as they could and did not need more, strictly speaking. Like Indians, they didn't need firewater or metal knives and fire sticks. There was no scarcity of these, because there wasn't any demand. It was marketing of the white man that created this demand.
Unlike it is now, when half of people live in cities and the cities don't produce almost anything, no food certainly, so there's a demand for food. And many other demands are artificially created, it's artificial scarcity. Today's system creates scarcity inherently, it's based on it. It's the basis of all economic textbooks. It's interesting point actually, my teachers translate scarcity more like a "rareness". They think it's a good thing! I translate it rather as "lack" of something.
RBE is a system that eliminates scarcity through abundance. Abundance isn't overwhelming, it's three meals a day, no more, not less, but forever, something you can count on, so you can stop worrying and go doing something that's fun and good for you and the society.
(27-12-2012 09:58 PM)Ghost Wrote: As for totalitarianism, I don't know that much about RBE, but bitch be trippin.I think you've nailed it. A loss of what we have is still great even if there's potentially more ahead. So that's why people get scared and invoke totalitarianism, they see only their loss (that is in fact only a change) and not everyone's gain.
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
Hey, Luminon.
Harmony is good, m'kay.
I really don't understand the whole service thing though.
Developing potential is good too. Reminds me of Star Trek, in that the profit motive was replaced by the developing potential motive.
On scarcity: it's absolutely normal (although I am not speaking about the effects of economic scarcity on pricing if that's what you're thinking). Scarcity is a natural part of being a predator. When your population grows, the prey species shrinks, meaning your population has to shrink, which gives them room to rebound, meaning your population can grow. That's the way it works for all organisms.
Nomadic hunter gatherers did keep moving around, but they were always depleting the prey species in whichever area they spent time in. They just had the sense (and the room) to move on to another area. But they had to give a depleted area time to rebound before they came back. And if they let their population grow too large, no amount of moving around would help them.
Every area has a carrying capacity. If you outstrip it, you go into overshoot. Population reduction or population collapse is the inevitable result of overshoot.
What we have done for the last few thousand years is use our ability to arbitrarily increase an area's carrying capacity in order to stave off overshoot. It began the day we first became sedentary. The problem is that in order to increase an area's carrying capacity, we need to convert the available biomass into humans, human food and food for human food. This is why we're decimating ecosystems the world over. We're quite literally devouring them. Our ability to stave off overshoot is, as it turns out, unsustainable. When it comes to our converting of biomass, we are currently in deficit spending. In the very near future, we will go into overshoot and we will either experience a reduction in population or a population collapse. And a population collapse is no kind of fun. Just ask the people on Easter Island.
If we set limits to how much we take, then we necessarily set limits on our population. Deliberately maintaining a population around the ability for the carrying capacity to support it is a great idea (accepting that the actual value we tinker with is the product of population x footprint). Unfortunately, populations always grow to their food supply. Meaning without draconian laws in place to maintain birthrates, people will have children when there's food available. So we will outstrip our carrying capacity. The question then becomes, do we allow scarcity to have its effect on us, or do we increase carrying capacity?
Daniel Quinn points out that our reaction for the last 5 000 years has been to increase carrying capacity, either by planting more crops, killing more competing species, increasing output technologically, or annexing more land. This has created a positive feedback loop much like the arms race; a phenomenon Quinn dubbed the food race. Have a food supply, grow into it, make more food, grow into it. It is the reason that there has been a 70 000% increase in the human population in the last 5 000 years. Again, it's not gonna last forever.
Ultimately, not only is scarcity normal, but no matter how fast or how far you run, it's gonna catch up to you.
Abundance is great (for what it is). Having a surplus is the cornerstone of our economy. It's also the fuel of the food race. Our exploitative hierarchical system is the only thing that allows us to produce a constant surplus (because if you don't produce a surplus, you don't make the money required to buy food, because all of the food is locked up). So abundance is only possible through exploitation. If we exploit robots instead of people, great, so long as we're smart enough to not make them sentient. But abundance will always lead to population growth.
But if abundance means an essentially fixed level (because carrying capacity always fluctuates a little, so there needs to be wiggle room), then I suppose that's not bad. But setting and maintaining that level poses a difficult challenge.
Anyhoo, don't feel like this is me shitting on RBE. I'm just pointing out some mechanics here.
Peace and Love and Empathy,
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(27-12-2012 06:19 AM)Luminon Wrote: ...
Sorry for the delayed response... been out of internet range
The tiny little social experiment concerns how I live:
It's difficult to describe without sounding pretentious but essentially I provide shelter for a small number of people for who possessions were important (cos they had none) and while living here they have the opportunity to move up the Maslow ladder a little.
I don't charge rent and there is an atmosphere of security/safety i.e. no need to worry about where the next meal is coming from.
Sometimes a hierarchy starts to form (if there is an alpha female) but usually there is a self-enforcing balance of who ends up doing what around the place.
Leading by example, it is my policy never to own more than can fit into two suitcases. Sometimes this rubs off onto those who live here and sometimes it doesn't but it's interesting to observe how people change when they get here and how much appreciation they show when it's time for them to move on.
The courses I referred to are concerning 'best practices' i.e. the processes by which services / businesses / communities etc. can be managed most efficiently and effectively. These processes include managing of: Incidents, Problems, Changes, Requests (perhaps this forum might benefit from some of these ), Finances, Assets, Knowledge, Service Levels etc. and possible more relevant to the subject at hand, managing of: Demand, Availability, Capacity, Security and Continuity.
26 service-related processes in all + 37 governance/management-related processes.
I won't bore you with the details (cos that's chargeable )
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
Venus project. I dislike it very much. A perfect world to one of us will never be a perfect world to all of us. I someday dream of my isolated cabin in the hills where I can live off the land and see or speak to no one for days or months even. I've got nothing against others signing up for a Venus project if that's their desire but my fear would be that it would end up being some type of Venus 'flytrap' instead. A system that can only be maintained by never letting anyone out of it. A Utopian intention that ends up being a 1984 scenario. Too much like actual history there.
Progress is never linear and will always have it's peaks and pitfalls. The growth of a society is a homeostatic pool of give and take, thriving on competition and experimentation. We'll never know what's best for anything if everything is not being explored and tested constantly. Besides, what about the human nature of rebellion? Of hacking? Or what about my ability or need to do things differently just because I can?
I do however, think technology is leading the evolution of human citizenry to a more open source method and that's where I agree with you. Though it's more likely to happen gradually and on it's own instead of by some master plan. A guy name Clay Shirky a good feel on the pulse of this stuff in his books and TED talks.
See also his presentation of Institutions vs. collaboration.
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DC 4-H'ers advance to state competition
The Dawson County 4H Council announced at the recent 4H Ach-ievement Barbecue their 4H nominees to represent Dawson County in the State competition of the 4H Awards/Incentives program.
The main basis for selection is the growth of the 4-H'er, how they have shared their knowledge with others, and how they have been involved in their community.
The state selection process has moved from individual projects, to general curriculum areas. In this way, projects not previously included may be involved. Eight curriculum areas have been identified for the State Level in 2013.
The Dawson County 4H nominees are as follows:
Alex Boryca, Cozad—Animal Science, Leadership & Citizenship and National 4-H Conference
Shae Brown, Gothenburg—Healthy Lifestyles and Plant Science
Maricela Dones, Lexington—National 4-H Conference
Jason Finnegan, Cozad—Plant Science and Science & Technology
Blaire Gibbens, Gothenburg—Animal Science and Science & Technology
Bailey Gibbens, Gothenburg—Animal Science, Healthy Lifestyles and National 4-H Conference
Neil Henderson, Cozad—Environmental Education & Earth Science and Leadership & Citizenship
Mallorie Hernandez, Lexington—Consumer & Family Science and National 4-H Conference
Dani Jewett, Overton—Healthy Lifestyles
Emily Keiser, Gothenburg—Animal Science and Leadership & Citizenship
Aaron Kreuscher, Gothenburg—Communication & Expressive Arts and Consumer & Family Science
Ana Lopez, Lexington—Communication & Expressive Arts, Consumer & Family Science and National 4-H Conference
Cristian Lopez, Lexington—Communication & Expressive Arts and Consumer & Family Science
Mackenzie McKeone, Lexington—National 4-H Conference
Patrick Peterson, Gothenburg—Animal Science and Environmental Education & Earth Science
Tigh Renken, Bertrand—Animal Science
Haley Rogers, Lexington—Consumer & Family Science, Leadership & Citizenship and National 4-H Conference
Ross Rogers, Lexington—Healthy Lifestyles, Science & Technology and National 4-H Conference
Jessica Schmidt, Gothenburg—Communication & Expressive Arts, Science & Technology and National 4-H Conference
Alyssa Schneider, Cozad—Animal Science and Leadership & Citizenship
Peyton Zimmerman, Overton—Healthy Lifestyles
Latest Headlines
- Gothenburg native releases first novel
- We all need help from a friend
- Monsanto hosts 6th annual Safety Day program
- Brady places champ and runner-up at State FCCLA
- Swedes continue conference domination
- Dancing With The Stars changes venues
- Middle-of-the-Pack Finishes For Swede Boys and Girls
- Girls Show Support for Teacher's Cancer Fight


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One has to wonder these days just exactly what it's going to take to get more water storage in California — empty faucets?
This state of 38 million thirsty Californians continues to teeter on disaster as the likelihood of global warming and actual drought conditions promise to make water a more precious commodity than oil.
While Sen. Dianne Feinstein and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger continue talks on a state water bond to be placed on this November's ballot, legislative water solutions remain beyond arm's reach as the problem mounts. Feinstein has long pushed for state money for dams, parting ways with other leading Democrats who have strongly opposed using public money to pay for surface water storage. To the senator's credit, she has called for a "comprehensive solution" that would include money for dams and groundwater storage, as well as repairs to the deteriorating Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta.
Meanwhile, while Feinstein and Schwarzenegger are busy crafting some kind of water bill for the fall, a proposal sponsored by the California Chamber of Commerce and other business and farm groups is gathering names to place an $11.7 billion water bond initiative on the ballot. Among the water projects is $3.5 billion set aside for dams. The group has until July 14 to collect 433,971 valid signatures from voters.
I realize that it is hard to get worked up about water shortage concerns when the ground is saturated from the several recent storms we've had in California, but when I speak with my association members the subject of water storage remains a hot topic that members consider a top priority. And, of course, they too are scratching their heads over the stalled negotiations. Consider the following.
•As pointed out elsewhere in this publication a few issues back, farmers on the West Side of the San Joaquin Valley may be facing water rates as high as $500 per acre foot later this year for surface irrigation water deliveries. That was the bid for water on the auction block last summer after state and federal officials slowed down the Delta pumps because smelt were swimming too near the pumps. Farmers have no reason to believe the price will be lower this year.
•Late last year, the California Department of Water Resources told the water agencies that serve two-thirds of Californians that they can expect just 25 percent of their normal allocations this year, down from 60 percent in 2007.
Several cities in Southern California have declared water emergencies. Residents of Long Beach, for example, can't run fountains, and it's now illegal for restaurants to serve customers a glass of water unless they request it.
The high premium for water has been especially painful for those served by Los Angeles' giant Metropolitan Water District, whose other main source of water, the Colorado River, is in its eighth year of drought.
•In Bakersfield, water shortages are expected to force some almond and pistachio growers to triage which of their nut trees should survive. And cities across California are drawing down underground water supplies meant to carry them through dry years just to avoid any new purchases.
•California farmers probably will take 82,000 acres out of cultivation this year if the state gets an average amount of rain and snow this winter, according to a recent study commissioned by Western Growers, which represents the California and Arizona produce industries. The economic loss would reach at least $69 million in farm production, according to the study.
•Adding another bleak component to the problem is global warming. Whether you believe in global warming or not, a recent study by climate researchers at the University of California, Santa Cruz, should get your attention. Their computer simulations of shrinking sea ice show that, outside of the Arctic itself, the most striking impact is the formation of a large, stubborn atmospheric feature off the West Coast that, like a boulder in a stream, deflects winter storms northward. While their climate simulations were interesting when events in the Arctic seemed to be keeping pace with gradually warming temperatures, what happened last summer to the sea ice has given researchers a much more profound sense of urgency.
In September, at the end of the 2007 "melt season," the area covered by Artic sea ice had shrunk 23 percent below the previous record set in 2005 and was 43 percent less than in 1979, when satellite measurements began. Several scientists called the event "shocking."
When they ran the computer model with sea ice conditions as they are anticipated to exist in 2050, along the West Coast, from southern British Columbia to Baja California, winter precipitation dropped as much as 30 percent, and even as far inland as the Rocky Mountains it fell by 17 percent. The study, published in the journal Science, noted: "Almost all models have a drying trend in the American Southwest, and they consistently become drier throughout the century."
All the red flags are waving and have been for years. But the pending water crisis is upon us and presents a very real threat, but a political vacuum and internecine warfare continue to stall sensible action. Environmental activists appear to be in a philosophical quandary over the matter: on the one hand they see water supply as the key element in land use and other development issues and believe that restricting supply will somehow slow growth; on the other hand they oppose restrictions on immigration (that add to population growth) while also believing in global warming scenarios that imply the state needs more storage to capture winter rains and offset the loss of snowpack.
Let's hope our state's political leaders soon will come to their senses over this important issue and resolve it, whether it is by building new reservoirs, conservation and other forms of non-storage water management, replenishing underground aquifers, or a combination thereof. Our survival, and that of generations to come, depends on it.


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California is leading a national craft beer explosion. It's home to 12 of the nation's 50 largest craft beer companies, according to the Brewers Assn. trade group.
So it's not surprising that some of the country's finest beer is brewed locally. Here are 10 of the best local beers to sample Easter weekend, as selected by Brandon Hernandez, a beer and food journalist, Zagat editor and Stone Brewing Co. communications specialist.
The beers are brewed in Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside and San Diego counties and would nicely compliment a traditional Easter dinner, Hernandez said. (He was asked to recommend bottled beers available in Southern California.)
The Bruery Saison de Lente (Farmhouse Ale; 6.5% ABV; Placentia; www.thebruery.com): Bubbly up front with grassy, floral, peppery flavors and a dry finish.


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NSCA's Guide to Sport and Exercise Nutrition CE Course
offers research from respected scientists and practitioners to help
professionals improve client and athlete performance by applying sound
nutrition concepts.
A course for any fitness or nutrition professional, including strength
and conditioning professionals, personal trainers, athletic trainers,
and sport dietitians interested in the topic.
About the NSCA
The National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA)
is the world's leading organization in the field of sport conditioning.
Drawing on the resources and expertise of the most recognized
professionals in strength training and conditioning, sport science,
performance research, education, and sports medicine, the NSCA is the
world's trusted source of knowledge and training guidelines for coaches,
athletes, and tactical operators. The NSCA provides the crucial link
between the lab and the field.
About the Editors
Bill I. Campbell, PhD, CSCS, FISSN, is an assistant professor at
the University of South Florida and the director of the Exercise and
Performance Nutrition Laboratory, a research laboratory dedicated to
innovation in sport nutrition research. As a researcher and author,
Campbell has published more than 100 scientific abstracts and papers
related to sport nutrition and enhancement of sport performance. In
addition, Campbell has published more than 50 articles for health and
fitness magazines (print and electronic media). He is a paid consultant
to professional sport team organizations and sport entertainment
corporations and has lectured on various topics related to sport
nutrition and exercise performance to audiences spanning five nations
and four continents. He was the lead author on the International Society
of Sports Nutrition's Position Stand: Protein and Exercise,
which addresses some of the common questions and myths regarding protein
intake and supplementation for athletes and physically active people.
Campbell is a member of the National Strength and Conditioning
Association (NSCA), the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM), and
the International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN). Campbell is also a
fellow of ISSN and serves on the organization's advisory board.
He received his PhD in exercise, nutrition, and preventive health from
Baylor University in 2007. During that same year, he also received the
Outstanding Doctoral Student Award for research and teaching. In 2009,
Campbell received the Outstanding Undergraduate Teaching Award from the
University of South Florida.
Marie A. Spano, MS, RD/LD, FISSN, CSCS, CSSD, is one of the
country's leading sport nutritionists. She combines science with
practical experience to help Olympic, professional, and recreational
athletes implement customized nutrition plans to maximize athletic
performance. Also a nutrition communications expert, Spano consults with
leading food, beverage, and supplement companies regarding public
relations and communications strategies.
Spano enjoys the challenge of communicating scientific information in an
approachable, understandable format to a variety of audiences. She has
appeared on NBC, ABC, Fox, and CBS affiliates. She has also authored
hundreds of magazine articles, trade publication articles, book
chapters, e-zines, and marketing materials.
A three-sport collegiate athlete, Spano earned her master's degree in
nutrition from the University of Georgia and her bachelor's degree in
exercise and sport science from the University of North Carolina at
Greensboro (UNCG), where she also ran Division I cross country. Her
experience as a college athlete gives her perspective on working with
athletes of all levels, especially student-athletes. She has a firsthand
understanding of how the demands of athletics, psychological aspects of
injury, and sleep, recovery, and sound nutrition can affect an athlete's
overall well-being and performance.
Spano is a member of the National Strength and Conditioning Association
(NSCA), the American Dietetic Association (ADA), the International
Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN), and Sports, Cardiovascular, and
Wellness Nutrition (SCAN). She currently serves as vice president for
the ISSN and is a member of the NSCA's Nutrition Special Interest Group.
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David Booth unsure he'll be healthy for Canucks' season opener
With his summer stuck recovering from ankle surgery, David Booth spent more time strengthening his upper body than ever before. He had no choice.
Left to train while being cautious with his left leg — which for some time was also in a cast — the Vancouver Canucks forward at one point shot up to 237 pounds.
It was only about two weeks ago the 28-year-old was finally able to push himself hard with his conditioning, and has now gone back down to about 205 pounds — a weight he wants to be at in order to feel lighter, faster and have higher endurance.
With training camp starting next week and the regular season about a month away, Booth hopes to be ready.
But first, he needs to be medically cleared — which he's not — and he can't really put a percentage on how close he is to being fully healthy or just to be back in game shape.
"Even mid-late August, I was still frustrated with how long this injury takes," Booth said Tuesday, after skating with about 20 other players at the University of B.C. "I was sticking to upper body to stay in shape and it was tough. I pride myself on my skating … so just being able to do that again in the past couple weeks, it's finally feeling good but it is a long time to get to where you need to be.
"It is the most frustrated I've been, even more so than my concussion. You want to be able to do something but you can't."
Last season, Booth played only 12 games for the Canucks, scoring once and adding two assists. He was set back right from the start when he suffered a groin injury on the first day of training camp, and went on to miss the first 14 games of the shortened campaign. Then, after his return, he broke his ankle on March 16 against the Detroit Red Wings, resulting in surgery and the end to his season.
While the injury held him back in the summer and remains a challenge for him moving forward, it also gave the winger time to focus on another part of his off-season growth — strengthening the mental aspect of being a professional athlete. Or in Booth's case, a public figure who has been rather vocal about his Christian faith.
Taking the initiative to learn more, the Detroit native travelled to England with his sister in July for a seven-day course on theology at Oxford.
"It's something I'm interested in," he said. "Just trying to get a better understanding for my faith and why do I believe what I believe? There's a lot of questions that are brought up in societies and in cultures. I just don't want to say, 'Well, that's just what I believe because I believe.' I want to have truth behind it and reasoning behind it so that's why I went over there."
The idea to take the full-day classes was all thanks to the questioning nature of fans he interacts with online, admits Booth.
"It was through my Twitter actually," he said. "I've always been a Christian and just didn't really know anything of the cultural background of Vancouver and people just raised some good questions through some of my tweets, and I guess I didn't have the best answers for them.
"The class is more just to help me communicate with people and have good conversations."
How all that translates into his on-ice performance remains to be seen but Booth stresses his off-ice activities — whether it be hunting or taking classes — is vital to a healthy balance.
"I like learning and challenging the brain," he said. "(Hockey is) so demanding on the stress levels, the mental ability, the capacity to think the game, and as long as you're always training your mind, that actually indirectly helps your hockey game."


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The price of oil eased to below $89 a barrel on Tuesday as expectations of rising crude supplies pulled attention away from the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.
By early afternoon in Europe, benchmark crude for December delivery was down 50 cents to $88.78 a barrel in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange.
On Monday, the contract added $2.36 to finish at $89.28 a barrel in New York, its highest point in nearly a month on rising concerns about the Middle East as well as optimism that U.S. political leaders will reach a budget deal before the end of the year, avoiding a hit to the economy.
But the price run-up may have been overdone, analysts said, pointing to more-than-adequate supplies.
Carl Larry of Oil Outlooks and Opinions said in an email commentary that U.S. oil production rose by 1 million barrels a day over the past year. In addition, U.S. lawmakers are pressing President Barack Obama to support TransCanada's proposed Keystone XL pipeline to transport crude oil from Canada to Gulf Coast refineries.
"We think that the production pace is only going to increase into 2013," Larry said. "So we're looking at two important steps to American oil independence."
While the escalating conflict between Israel and Hamas has raised concerns about Middle East crude supplies, analysts say the risk of immediate supply disruption isn't great because neither side is an oil producer.
"The oil producing countries in the surrounding area could be dragged into the conflict were it to further escalate, which justifies a risk premium on the oil price," said a report from Commerzbank in Frankfurt.
Investors will also be monitoring fresh information on U.S. stockpiles of crude and refined products.
Data for the week ending Nov. 16 is expected to show builds of 1 million barrels in crude oil stocks and 1.25 million barrels in gasoline stocks, according to a survey of analysts by Platts, the energy information arm of McGraw-Hill Cos.
The American Petroleum Institute will release its report on oil stocks later Tuesday, while the report from the Energy Department's Energy Information Administration — the market benchmark — will be out on Wednesday.
Brent crude, which is used to price international varieties of oil, was down 21 cents to $111.49 a barrel on the ICE Futures exchange in London.
In other energy futures trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange:
— Wholesale gasoline was down 1.65 cents to $2.7380 a gallon.
— Heating oil added 0.34 cent to $3.0785 a gallon.
— Natural gas gained 4.3 cents to $3.762 per 1,000 cubic feet.
Pamela Sampson in Bangkok contributed to this report.