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After The Spill: The Environment And Economy Of The Gulf
In July 2010, the oil spill caused by the Deepwater Horizon rig explosion fouled beaches and wetlands, killed wildlife, and ruined seafood businesses. Nearly three years later, as the civil trial against BP begins, those who live and work in the area continue to feel the disaster's effects.
Debbie Elliott, national correspondent, NPR
Edward Overton, Professor Emeritus of environmental sciences, Louisiana State University
Sonny Schindler, owner, Shore Thing Charters
Melanie Driscol, director of bird conservation for the Gulf of Mexico and Mississippi Flyway, National Audubon Society
This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. This week the federal government and Gulf Coast states took BP and its contractors to court seeking billions in civil damages for the disaster that began almost three years ago now, with the explosion of the Deepwater Horizon oil rig. Some call it the trial of the century.
The disaster at the heart of the case killed 11 oil workers and dumped at least 170 million gallons of crude into the water, oil that fouled beaches and wetlands, killed birds and fish, ruined the tourism and seafood businesses and shut down offshore oil, at least for a while.
As a federal judge hears arguments over who's responsible for what, we want to hear from those of you who live in and work in the Gulf. What's happened to your lives and businesses, to your beaches and wetlands. What effects do you still see from the oil spill? 800-989-8255. Email us, firstname.lastname@example.com. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.
Later in the program, we want to hear about your favorite short poem, and we mean short. Email us now. The address again is firstname.lastname@example.com. But first the Gulf Coast, and we begin with national correspondent Debbie Elliott, who's been reporting on this story from the very beginning, and good to have you back on the program.
DEBBIE ELLIOTT, BYLINE: Hi, thanks Neal.
CONAN: And I guess people have been having a bit of a flashback this week.
ELLIOTT: Yeah, it's been an opportunity, especially for those who are following the court proceedings, to hear all of the decisions that were just so wrong, that made it very clear this was a preventable disaster.
CONAN: Now you live and work along the Gulf Coast. Is the spill still one of the first things that comes up when you talk to people?
ELLIOTT: You know, not really. People have moved on and are trying to recover and go on with their lives. And in the region where I live, on the coast of Alabama, you know, tourism has come back. And if you don't pay really close attention, you don't know that the spill is still with you.
But if you talk to the environmental manager for the city of Orange Beach, you get a much different picture. We talked a little bit earlier, today, about what he calls the ongoing issue of traveling tar. Basically there are these submerged mats of tar that are out between the beach and the sand bars in the Gulf of Mexico. And when weather happens, say you get a hurricane, a tropical storm or even just a series of serious thunderstorms like we did around Christmastime, it churns up that oil, and it washes ashore. And you get another big section of beach that has tar balls that has to be cleaned up.
So it's sort of an ongoing staying-ahead-of-the-tar-balls process. Right now BP is doing that, but he's concerned that when BP is gone, the city is going to have to assume that monitoring, from now and into the future, and he's hoping that BP will have to pay for that for years, and years and years to come.
CONAN: We want to hear from those of you who live along the Gulf Coast, who work there. What's happened to your lives and your businesses or the beaches you go to or - well anyway, let's start with a caller. This is Lewis(ph), Lewis with us from Columbia in South Carolina.
LEWIS: Hello.
CONAN: Hi.
LEWIS: Yes, I used to work in - I'm from Mexico, and I've been here about 15 years. And I used to work in Louisiana for five years, fishing, and I worked for someone. And I was - when everything happened, there was no work, and I couldn't stay there. So I moved to South Carolina. And I wasn't paid - you could say I was paid under the table, always have.
But it was good work, everything was great, but that happened, and me and a bunch of other people I know, who were either Latinos or from other countries, who were in my same situation, we had to leave. We just - we couldn't stay. There was no work.
CONAN: Especially if you were living from paycheck to paycheck, or envelope to envelope in any case. Any plans to go back, Lewis?
LEWIS: It's not very secure. It's not - I mean, nothing is secure, sure. Right now I'm just working, believe it or not, construction. It's better than fishing right now, for me, anyway.
CONAN: Well good luck, thanks very much for the phone call.
LEWIS: Thank you.
CONAN: Joining us now is Edward Overton, a professor emeritus at the environmental society - of environmental sciences at Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge. He's there with us from his office on the LSU campus. Nice to have you back on the program.
EDWARD OVERTON: Thank you, Neal.
CONAN: And we spoke last, in fall of 2011. You'd just returned from collecting oil samples along the Gulf shoreline, which you said looked remarkably normal. Has recovery continued, or have there been effects of the spill that have taken time to show up?
OVERTON: Well, recovery is - I mean, the environment is dramatically better than it was in the summer of 2010. Now that doesn't mean there's not still oil. We heard about the buried tar mats that every so often get washed up, and there's tar-balling. But these events, again, are nothing like what happened in the summer of 2010. There was oil everywhere.
And there's a big difference between an abnormal level of tar balls washing up, than oil all over the beach. Now we also have, over in Louisiana, some of that oil has been buried in the marshes. And with events like Hurricane Isaac, it washed some of this oil up. So we had a re-oiling. But again, this is a slight re-oiling, nothing like we had in the summer of 2010. Our environment is strongly, strongly coming back to its normal situations.
CONAN: What happened to all that oil?
OVERTON: Well, most of the oil gets degraded. You know, oil is a natural product. It is a natural product in the Gulf of Mexico, believe it or not. Depending on who you talk to, between 20 and 50 million gallons of oil seep into the Gulf of Mexico every year. So there's a lot of oil seeping into the Gulf.
That means that the natural environment is acclimated to using that oil to convert it to bacteria. The bacteria then serve as food sources for animals that eat bacteria and, so on, up the food chain. When you have a gusher of oil like we had in the summer of 2010, Mother Nature's mechanisms kick in. The bacterial population expands and degrades most of that oil.
Unfortunately when the oil gets buried, down where there's not much oxygen, then the bacteria can't degrade it. So basically buried oil stays around. And that's what we're seeing now, that oil that got buried in the inner tidal zone and in the marshes doesn't degrade very fast, if at all. And when a storm event comes along, it resurfaces it, and there's a slight re-oiling along the beaches and marshes.
But again, comparing it to the summer of 2010 and now is just not the right thing to do. We - it's a slight re-oiling now. It was a horrible mess - and that's the nicest way I can put it is a horrible mess - in the summer of 2010.
CONAN: Are you surprised by the extent to which things have rebounded?
OVERTON: It actually rebounded a little quicker than I expected it, and I was pretty optimistic from the start. This was a very light crude oil, South Louisiana crude crude oil. A lot of its components volatilized, a lot of them were dissolved in the water because it was released at such a deep depth of 5,000 feet.
So you had a lot of it dissolved in the water that didn't come ashore. But still it is - what didn't get buried has been substantially degraded. So it's just a perfect example of the resilience of Mother Nature if you give her a chance.
CONAN: Ed Overton, thanks very much for being with us again, we appreciate your time.
OVERTON: Sure.
CONAN: Ed Overton is professor emeritus of environmental sciences at Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge, and joined us from his office there. Debbie Elliott, this is one of the big issues in the trial that is going on right now, because a lot of people say we don't know what's going to happen with some of this - the effects of this spill five, 10 years from now.
ELLIOTT: Exactly, and state officials are particularly concerned in Louisiana because they already have such a fragile coastline. You know, they lose something like a football field a day of wetlands. And early science has indicated that the oiling of their marshes and wetlands has accelerated the pace of that in some places.
If you talk to Garret Graves, who's the governor, Bobby Jindal's coastal advisor, the top coastal person in Louisiana, he says today in Louisiana they still have what is considered to be 200 miles of oiled shoreline. Granted it's not those pictures that we all remember from three years ago of big globs of brown covering everything, but you can go step in a marsh and push down, and oil seeps up.
And scientists are just now starting to sort of figure out what the baseline was in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010 and what damage has been done and what damage might be expected in the future. And that's going to be a big question mark in terms of deciding what BP has to pay for the natural resources damage that it caused in the spill.
CONAN: Let's get another caller in. This is Angie(ph), Angie on the line with us from Biloxi, Mississippi.
ANGIE: Hello, how are you doing?
CONAN: I'm well, thank you.
ANGIE: Good.
CONAN: And what's your situation?
ANGIE: Well, I actually - we are more on the economical side, as opposed to environmental. We own and operate limited-service hotel properties along the Mississippi Gulf Coast, specifically Biloxi, Ocean Springs, Bay St. Louis areas. And from our point of view, what we saw was that initially, right after the oil spill, we did experience a small bump, and that was mostly due to contract labor for oil company cleanup coming through.
And then went on for a couple of months. So I think that actually subsidize the tourism that started declining directly after the oil spill. Of course what happens is after that contract leaves, then you're stuck with nothing to really fill the space, and that's what happened in 2011. We saw a substantial decrease in our sales for our properties.
And only in 2012, and hopefully this year we're starting to see the turnaround. And I think an earlier caller mentioned that they were surprised at how soon it was. And we also feel that yeah, we are seeing the turnaround now.
CONAN: And people are happy to come and visit and hit the beach?
ANGIE: Well, I surely hope so. You know, we have a good casino industry there, also, and I don't know how the casinos have done, my guess is that they probably did better than the smaller properties along the coast. But, you know, for the most part it's really great. Tourism is back on track, and we encourage people to come to the area.
CONAN: Well Angie, good luck.
ANGIE: Thank you very much.
CONAN: Appreciate the phone call.
ELLIOTT: And Neal, you know, BP has paid a lot of money to run a national advertising campaign encouraging people to come back to the Gulf Coast. And some people think that's had a bit of an impact.
CONAN: If you live and work in the Gulf region, what's happened to your life, to your environment since the BP oil spill? 800-989-8255. Email us, email@example.com. Debbie Elliott is with us, who's been covering this story from the beginning, the spill and now the trial. I'm Neal Conan. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. Scientists and public officials are still trying to determine the long-term effects of 2010's oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. More than 1,000 met in New Orleans last month to share their research on everything from the best way to clean oil mousse from the marshes, to what's happening to shrimp that swim through oily areas, to the mental and physical health problems Gulf region residents are still dealing with.
We'll hear from one of the researchers from the National Audubon Society a little later in the program. If you live and work in the Gulf, we want you to weigh in, too. What happened to your life, to your business, to your marshes and your beaches? 800-989-8255. Email firstname.lastname@example.com. You can also join the conversation on our website. Go to npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.
NPR correspondent Debbie Elliott is with us. And joining us now is Captain Sonny Schindler, owner of Shore Thing Fishing Charters in Bay St. Louis, Mississippi. Good to have you on the program.
SONNY SCHINDLER: Good to be here.
CONAN: How's business?
SCHINDLER: Business is good, man. We've expanded every year with the exception of the year of the spill, but we're doing good, just having to work for everything.
CONAN: What happened initially afterwards? I assume you had to shut down?
SCHINDLER: We did, unfortunately. We tried to go as long as we could. We wanted to keep fishing. But for precautionary measures, they closed the waters that we fish. So we couldn't work if we wanted to. So we had to - all of our guides took jobs assisting in the cleanup.
CONAN: So kept bread on the table that way.
SCHINDLER: Yes, sir. You know, we had to make money somehow, and a couple of the guys worked out at the barrier islands cleaning oil, and a few of them used their charter boats to physically go out there and get it. Myself and another guide, we worked in logistics, and we traveled to every port from Florida to West Louisiana. It was a long couple of months.
But we're back, you know, and fishing's good, and business is great.
CONAN: I was just about to ask: The fishing is good?
SCHINDLER: The fishing is very good. Our fishery basically got a year off between the closures and the worries of the areas that we were in, that might be contaminated. Nobody was out there, the shrimpers, the fishermen, all the commercial guys. So when we came back in 2011, it was just a free-for-all. There was just fish everywhere.
And I'm sure you're going to go with the is it safe to eat...
CONAN: I was going to mention that.
SCHINDLER: But, you know, we keep in close contact with the local research lab. They're on a first-name friend list with us. We fish with them. We know them well. And they've assured us that everything's good to go, safe to eat. And we've done well catching and eating it. So life is good.
CONAN: Are the same fish in the same areas where they've always been? Have things changed?
SCHINDLER: From a population standpoint, honestly I think there's more. You know, and hopefully it's just going to stay good. I hope we don't get an echo or a tremor down the road from a break in the food chain, but our fishing's as good, if not better, than it's ever been.
ELLIOTT: May I ask what you fish? Is it red snapper primarily, tuna, what?
SCHINDLER: No, ma'am, we're an inshore, it's speckled trout, redfish, flounder, triple tail, sharks, and then there's a host of other stuff but primarily marsh species, speckled trout.
ELLIOTT: So you're inside the barrier islands there in the Mississippi Sound, mostly, and inland?
SCHINDLER: And the Louisiana marsh. We're licensed to fish both states. We're right on the border of Mississippi and Louisiana.
CONAN: And when you said break in the food chain, what are you worried about?
SCHINDLER: Well, the - you know, if something were to happen from the oil, the dispersant, it might be at a microbial level. We might not see a fish floating belly-up. It may have wiped out a generation of eggs. You know, the spill hit during the spring, which for us is spawning season, and we might not see the effects of that for another year or two, seeing that the spill was, you know, years ago.
But everything we've had from 2011 to now, it's great. Our fishing is incredible. Everything's where it should be in healthy numbers, size and appearance. You know, there's no scars or lesions on our fish that you hear about - just in our area. You know, I can't speak for areas, you know, in Alabama and Florida and different parts of Louisiana. But our area is good to go.
CONAN: Well, Sonny...
ELLIOTT: Do you fish as far as the Barataria Basin?
SCHINDLER: As far as Barataria Bay? No ma'am, that's on the other side of the Mississippi River. We're on the east side of the river.
CONAN: Well, Sonny Schindler, thanks very much for your time, and continued good luck.
SCHINDLER: Thank you very much.
CONAN: Captain Schindler, the owner of Shore Thing Charters, he joined us from his home in Bay St. Louis. And is - are those the kind of reports you're getting from most of the fisheries?
ELLIOTT: We are getting similar reports. The reason I interrupted to ask a question, Neal, is because from the Mississippi River back east, fisherman are reporting just record catch, no problems, numbers. But then if you go to the other side of the Mississippi River, there have been a couple of spots, and some fisherman that I've spoken with particularly in Barataria Bay, who saw some problems the year after the spill in terms of they weren't - in speckled trout, redfish. They weren't catching the numbers that they normally would.
And that was one of the areas that was right at ground zero in terms of when the oil came inshore in Louisiana. It really got hit hard there. And they wondered if the fish had moved. I mean, they had a lot of questions about what was going on. So it depends - it's very specific to different spots along the Gulf Coast as to what fishermen are reporting.
CONAN: Let's go next to Joe(ph), and Joe's on the line with us from Louisville, Kentucky.
JOE: Hi Neal, thanks for taking my call.
CONAN: Sure.
JOE: Yeah, my family and I have been going down to that Gulf area, down to the Pensacola area, the Redneck Riviera we like to call it, for about 25 years. And we camp down there, so we're really close to the water, and we get to see the damage. And as your - as the guest right there, as your correspondent says, we've been getting a lot of those BP feel-good commercials up here about the Gulf Coast is coming back, and, you know, come on down and visit.
And we have been down there. We were down there actually when the oil rode ashore in 2010. We were camping and just about had to leave because of the stench. It was almost like standing inside a refinery. It was awful. But my comment, every time that we've been down there and there's been a slight storm, some kind of rough waters, anything like that, the guys are out there immediately picking up all the oil balls and the debris from there.
I mean, they've got a crew of BP that they're out there immediately. But what we've noticed, and it's been our little piece of heaven down there for years, is the crabs, snakes, birds, you know, the dolphin and the fish. We just don't see them on the shoreline. We don't go out and fish or - you know, we go out in the water, but we just don't see the fish that we used to see in the water before the spill.
They're just gone, especially on the beach, with the crabs and, like I said, the snakes and the birds. We just don't see that down there. So I think a lot of people are kind of more or less saying come on down, we're doing good, but in actuality I think it's kind of just trying to get the people back down there.
CONAN: You expect the Chamber of Commerce to be talking up how good it is, yeah.
JOE: Absolutely. I think that every time I've ever been down there, especially in Pensacola, that's exactly what they're saying: Come on down, the beaches are beautiful, and the fish is safe to eat. But, you know, I see a lot of oil every time we've ever been down there coming up on the beach.
CONAN: All right, Joe, thanks very much for the call.
JOE: Sure, bye.
CONAN: Here's an email, this is from - I'm not quite sure who it's from: How many oil rigs are operated by companies that don't have deep pockets like BP? If one of them had a blowout, who would pay?
ELLIOTT: Well, that's a very good question. But it is the deep-pocket oil companies are the ones that can afford to drill in deep water, which is very complicated and the riskiest kind of drilling and more likely to create this kind of a massive accident. You know, there's an oil spill underway right now in the Gulf of Mexico. It's in shallow water. It's off of Port Sulphur. A crew boat ran into a well that had been abandoned for about the past five years.
Damaged the well, so an oily water mix started spewing out of it. The Coast Guard responded. The company responded. They're cleaning it up. They're trying to shut the well in. It's not going to be as near as complicated as it was to try to shut in the Macondo Well when it blew because it was so deep, and it was so complicated.
CONAN: Melanie Driscol, the National Audubon Society's director of bird conservation for the Gulf of Mexico and Mississippi Flyway. And it's good of you to be with us today.
MELANIE DRISCOLL: Thank you, Neal, I'm honored to be here to be able to speak for Gulf wildlife following the Macondo spill.
CONAN: It's interesting, one of the things you told NPR shortly after the spill was the bird you'd most be looking at is the brown pelican, kind of the canary in the coal mine. How's the brown pelican doing?
DRISCOLL: It's difficult to say because all of the studies - most of the studies of the birds that are being done following the spill are tied up in the natural resources damage assessment legal process. So the results are not available. We do see a lot of brown pelicans out on, you know, the breeding seasons, out on the islands. It can be difficult to tell if they are birds that were affected by the spill or if they may be birds that have moved in from other areas.
We know there were immediate mortalities of a lot of brown pelicans and other birds that are even more rare like Wilson's plover. But what we don't know is how the long-term chronic effects will play out. We do see in some other parts of the system - in marshes and in the deep-sea corals - that some of the changes that are being seen have taken a little while to manifest.
CONAN: Such as?
DRISCOLL: Well, for marshes there were declines in large spiders. Researcher Linda Hooper-Bui found almost no large spiders in oiled marsh in 2010, but then began to notice declines of other insects in the summer of 2012.
CONAN: And that might not seem like a big deal, but it is.
DRISCOLL: But they're bird food, from my perspective. So you know, there have been similar - what they call trophic level effects, cascading effects where a part of the ecosystem is affected, and then it may later have an effect on a different, you know, animal or species down the road.
And so similar to what we saw with the herring crash in - after the Exxon Valdez, but many years after we are still looking out for what might be population problems that go up the food chain over time. This is a living disaster, and we are hoping with the BP trial starting that BP will finally start to pay for the damage that it's done in the Gulf of Mexico.
CONAN: And as you assess it, it's interesting that because of the trial, some of this information is being locked up. It's proprietary?
DRISCOLL: Yes, it is. The natural resources damage assessment is a legal process by which the government does various research and studies to try to assess the damage to our natural resources and to hold the responsible parties accountable. Because that is a legal process, the information is held from the public for anywhere from years to decades. So until either there is a settlement or the lawsuit is finalized, those data will not be available to scientists.
CONAN: And that could be a while. How long do you think it's going to be before you're going to have a realistic estimate of what the damage was?
DRISCOLL: Actually, I think it will be decades because some of the answers about the acute effects may be released - the Fish and Wildlife Service has done studies, and those studies may be released once the settlements are done or the trial is finished. However, what we know from other spills and other ecosystems is that there will be oil in this environment for decades to come, and there could be effects for decades to come.
Regardless of what the settlements or penalties are now, we need as a nation and as a government and a legal system to be prepared to come back to the responsible parties, including BP, to ask them to pay for damages if further damages are discovered in the future.
CONAN: We're talking about the effects of the oil spill as the BP trial continues. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
And Debbie Elliott, our correspondent in NPR, who's been covering this, is still with us. We're talking with Melanie Driscoll of the National Audubon Society. What would you be most worried about?
DRISCOLL: We're frankly the most worried about species that are the most at risk because they spend most of their time in the heavily oiled zone and that already are under a tremendous amount of stress, either from other threats or because they have very small populations.
One prime example is the Wilson's plover. It's a small shorebird that nests and lives - even some of them winter - along the Gulf Coast. A large proportion of their population is on the Gulf of Mexico. They were really breeding at the center of the spill. And of the birds that one small - one scientific team captured during the oil spill, 44 percent of the birds captured had some oil on them.
So we know that their exposure was potentially great. They feed in the oiled zone where we still, to this day, have oil coming up and - in the intertidal zone and affecting their food supply. And there are only about 6,000 of these birds worldwide. So they're already at low populations. They're already stressed and threatened, and they're spending all of their time where the oil is still coming up. And we still see BP cruise cleaning that oil up to this day.
CONAN: Well, thanks very much for being with us.
DRISCOLL: Thank you very much, Neal.
CONAN: Again, Melanie Driscoll is the National Audubon Society's director of bird conservation for the Gulf of Mexico and the Mississippi Flyway. Let's see if we can get another caller in, and this is Bill, Bill with us from Panama City in Florida.
BILL: Yeah. I used to fish, and I know a fair amount of commercial fishermen that did a lot of snapper fishing. That's the largest red snapper spawning ground in the world. And a lot of them tell me that fishing there is poor, and you can see the effects of it here in Florida because the number of red snapper that are here now is incredible, and I think that's just because they don't have a place to go there.
Now, I know most people look at the, you know, the effects of the oil, but we - the effects of people that here now can fish for red snapper is going to have a huge impact because most of the people had no access to those fish that now they can fish them till they're gone, and they'll do it. You know, listen to people around here, they really don't take into account the fact that those fish, you know, were out there. (Unintelligible) catch a 30 pound red snapper here. That's almost unheard of.
CONAN: It's interesting, Bill. You'll catch them until their gone. Debbie Elliott, one thing this does remind us of, again, is the fragility of systems that seemed so robust.
ELLIOTT: Right. And you know what has occurred to me listening to people call in and describe their personal experiences is we are all at such - you know, our awareness has changed now. Every time we're out on the water, on the beach or out fishing, anything we see now, we think in the back of our minds, are this normal or is this something that's different because of the oil spill? There's this heightened awareness and it's interesting to watch. You know, people are paying a lot closer attention to what is going on in the environment around them, I think.
CONAN: Debbie Elliott, thanks as always for your time.
ELLIOTT: Thank you, Neal.
CONAN: Debbie Elliott, NPR national correspondent, with us from her home base in Orange Beach, Alabama.
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DETROIT (AP) -- Only two of nine midsize SUVs got the highest rating in crash tests done by an insurance industry group.
The Chevrolet Equinox and GMC Terrain, both made by General Motors, received the highest "good" rating from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. The Toyota Highlander got the second-best "acceptable" rating in tests of 2014 models.
But the Jeep Grand Cherokee, Toyota 4Runner and Ford Explorer got "marginal" ratings, while the Kia Sorento, Mazda CX-9 and Honda Pilot all were rated "poor."
The ratings are based on six crash test measurements done by the institute. Only the Equinox and Terrain got "good" ratings in a front overlap crash that mimics what happens when a car's front corner collides with another vehicle or an object like a utility pole. In the test, 25 percent of a vehicle's front end on the driver's side strikes a rigid barrier at 40 mph.
The test, instituted in 2012, is more difficult than the U.S. government's frontal crash test, in which a car strikes a rigid barrier head-on at 35 mph. IIHS says hitting only part of the front end makes it harder for cars to manage the energy from a crash. The test "continues to challenge manufacturers more than a year and a half after its introduction," the institute said in a statement.
The institute uses its crash test scores to prod automakers into adding safety devices or making their cars more crash-resistant.
The institute said the Equinox and Terrain, which are almost identical, were modified by GM in the new model year to strengthen their front structure and door-hinge pillars. In tests, the Equinox driver's space was well-maintained, and the crash dummy's movement was well-controlled, the institute said.
The institute changed its requirements for vehicles to get the "Top Safety Pick-Plus" designation this year. To earn that, vehicles must get "good" ratings in four crash tests, "good" or "acceptable" in the overlap test, and they must have available a front crash prevention system that either warns the driver of a crash or stops the vehicle with automatic braking.
Of the nine midsize SUVs, only the Equinox and Terrain and the Highlander qualified for "Top Safety Pick-Plus."
The Honda Pilot was the worst performer of the group, largely because the driver's space was seriously compromised in the overlap test, the institute said.
Honda said in a statement that with each redesign, the Pilot has been a leader in light-truck safety and driver-assist technologies "and we are committed that it will continue to do so in the future."

subset: commoncrawl


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I apologise for the loss of service over the last 24 hours. The website was hacked by an Iranian hacking team named CL3AN3RS (CLEANERS). This group spend their time hacking and wiping websites just because they can
I've restored everything from backup and all seems to be working again. The backup was dated August 2nd 03:41 so unfortunately all posts made after that time will be gone. Sorry about that, but you will need to repost any messages you wrote after that date and time.
I've also blocked IP addresses that originate in Iran so hopefully that will stop this happening again - no guarantees though
If any users or groups spot any problems please let me know.


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Note: SkyDrive is now OneDrive, and SkyDrive Pro is now OneDrive for Business. Read more about this change at From SkyDrive to OneDrive.
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Monday, May 12, 2008
Two Possibilities
The first is very straightforward -- a pulp fantasy "adventure locale" that's a "module" in the classic sense. It'd be a plug and play area that the referee could easily pick up and drop into an ongoing campaign without any trouble and that would suggest -- rather than outright provide -- lots of adventure ideas through descriptions of locations, NPCs, monsters, spells, magic items, etc. In short, it'd be both a sandbox and a toolbox in one.
At the moment, I'm calling this idea The Forbidden Isle, because I see it as the creative descendant of both The Isle of Dread and Dwellers of the Forbidden City. What I'd create would be a small tropical island chain, with a single central island, on which an outpost of civilization has been established by traders, explorers, missionaries, and the like. The eponymous Forbidden Isle was once, in the distant past, the center of an ancient and advanced culture that fell into decadence, evil, and barbarism and its ruins can be found across the archipelago. Naturally, survivors of the advanced culture still exist, using their powerful magic and technology to toil away in the service of the evil to whom they have sold their souls.
Ideally, The Forbidden Isle would allow me to illustrate many aspects of old school gaming that I think have been lost in contemporary RPGs. Likewise, I'd be able to use it as a springboard for some of the pulp fantasy rules mods I've been tinkering with. I don't think you can get more pulp fantasy than a remote tropical island filled with the ruins of a decadent evil civilization.
The second idea I have is for what I'm calling Endgame. Basically, it'd fill in the blanks on the lost endgame for OD&D and its descendants. One of the things that's clear if you read any of the old timers reminiscing about, for example, Gary's Greyhawk campaign is that, after a certain point, the game changed. High-level characters settled down, built strongholds, engaged in politics, and the players took up the roles of henchmen, hirelings, and others because their original characters were too bogged down in the demands of leadership to be able to keep adventuring in the traditional sense. Somewhere along the line, this endgame for D&D was lost, replaced instead with the cartoonishness that is "epic level play," a kind of fantasy superheroics that is alien both to the origins of the hobby and its literary antecedents. I can think of few things that'd nicely help to differentiate old school play from its bastard children than a proper treatment of what "high-level" really means.
Endgame is a fair bit more ambitious a project than The Forbidden Isle and I think its audience might also be smaller. Of course, the audience for both of these projects may be small in any case. I have no expectation that I'll get rich off either idea, but my whole purpose here is to try and produce a modern take on old school gaming and that means I'll need to make at least enough money to recoup any investment I put into this. And, sadly, my experience is that grognards are, quite frankly, a tight-fisted and miserly lot. On some level, I can't blame them; they have all the products they'll ever need and old school gaming doesn't encourage the supplement treadmill we see among new school products.
At the same time, the old school community needs new products to attract new blood. We cannot afford to remain insular and sterile or the values and styles we hold dear will one day disappear entirely. Consequently, my hope is that I might be able to do the impossible: convince grognards to buy something genuinely new with contemporary production values and artwork. I'm not interested in producing nostalgia pieces. What I want is to make new products that exemplify old school game play and philosophies -- a bridge from the past to the present. To do it right, though, I somehow need to appeal to the old schoolers out there without frightening off gamers who might in fact like old school products but are (justifiably, in my opinion) somewhat turned off by the stodginess and/or bile that sometimes surrounds us grognards. I'm not sure it's possible but I do want to try.
And this is where things stand now.
40 comments:
- AnonymousMay 12, 2008 at 4:52 PM
For what it's worth, I'd be interested in purchasing either/both, but I'm particularly intrigued by the concept of the Endgame product. This from a "grognard" who owns only three RPG books published since 1987 (Gygax's Living Fantasy and Kuntz's Bottle City and Living Room.
ReplyDelete - AnonymousMay 12, 2008 at 4:53 PM
Great ideas on both counts James. One question: I'm a little fuzzy on the whole Endgame idea. It sounds like this would be a guide/supplement to help players use their high level PCs to do things like set up a fortress, gather henchmen, engage in politics and the like...but from what I've heard (here and elsewhere) it sounds like for the most part the old guard ended up dropping their high level characters at this point and, as you say, started playing henchmen and new low level characters, never actually engaging in this high level play. Is this the case?
Are you then seeing this as filling in an old school hole that was implied, but never actually implemented by the earlier generation? Or am I misreading you? - AnonymousMay 12, 2008 at 6:59 PM
I have to suggest that Endgame might be a somewhat unfortunate title choice. Just as there are no winners or losers in A/D&D, there is no "end" to the game. It's catchy, and I understand what is meant by it, but the terminology is rather infelicitous and sounds a bit like the last station along an "Adventure Path" railroad.
ReplyDelete Oh, yeah, tough choice.
Honestly, they both look extremely cool, and either would find use in my games.
The real question, however, is which better furthers your aims? (Yes, which would sell better is an important issue, but unless you can afford scientific market research I doubt you'll actually be able to acquire any decent, actionable data. And if you could afford that sort of research, you'd just make both of them while lounging on the beach of your own private island, where bikini-clad beauties poured you fresh mojitos and rolled up characters for your latest five-nights-a-week game.)
Endgame is intriguing because it offers a glimpse at a key component of Old School gaming that often gets short shrift even from Old School gamers. It will likely include techniques and ideas that could even be bolted onto 4e. Unfortunately, it's not something that most groups could pick up and use right away, meaning that it's likely to get picked up by the curious, but maybe not actively played with by most who buy it.
The Forbidden Isle on the other hand, sounds like one of those products that DMs would snatch up and throw at their players right away. With a lot of hand-holding and coaching, you could introduce those DMs and players to Old School themes and techniques, both in playing and crafting adventures and settings. Unfortunately, there's no guarantee that folks won't just toss out the Old School components and try to run it as a hack-fest or modern-style game. I expect it would also be a lot more stat-dependent, making its appeal limited to those who are already interested enough in LL or C&C to hunt for adventures keyed to those systems. Finally, lots of adventures are published every year. Where Endgame's unusual theme would draw attention from those outside the grognard community, The Forbidden Isle will require a larger degree of marketing to stand out from the crowd. Granted, if you get a really dynamite cover artist, that alone might be enough.
Anyway, those are the pros and cons I can come up with right now off the top of my head. I hope there's something useful for you in all of that.
- BrianAre you then seeing this as filling in an old school hole that was implied, but never actually implemented by the earlier generation? Or am I misreading you?
It's not exactly a "hole" in old school gaming, so much as an area that was never as fully developed as other areas and, more importantly, that fell out of favor as D&D developed. OD&D includes rules -- very basic ones -- for domain rulership, as well as rules for the construction of strongholds. AD&D has the latter but not the former. Mentzer era D&D did have some nice rules in the Companion Set, but (aside from Birthright in the 2e era), this is the extent of the idea's development, which is entirely absent in 3e and, so far as I know, 4e.
My point is that OD&D had a different conception of what "high-level play" consisted in and I'd like to resurrect it and give it a nice spit and polish. My goal isn't anything exhaustive or systematic so much as inspiring and evocative. I think many of the problems with modern fantasy RPGs come from the outlandish expectations about character power that resulted from the elimination of the old endgame. I see this product as a way to correct things.- AnonymousMay 12, 2008 at 8:46 PM
Both proposals are compelling and I would jump at the chance to purchase the finished products.
ReplyDelete - AnonymousMay 12, 2008 at 9:01 PM
Hi James -
I was actually working on a product very like 'endgame' at one point. One of the hard things - TSR never got it quite right with Swords & Spells or the Battlesystem - is you do in fact need some kind of tack-on mass battle rules. I think probably either a generic hex-and-counter system or something like Reign's companion rules are the two roads for reasonable inspiration here.
Also - are you playing for the endgame up front? That is, do choices made earlier effect outcomes later somehow? That would be the seductive line relative to current design wisdom, but anti-D&D in certain respects IMO.
Third issue - how do the old characters effect the game as it goes on. Do old players continue to gain some value from them even when they've moved on to a new character? Does being a band of 3rd levelers working for X instead of Y make a difference to some kind of metagame resource, or something like that? A lot of this stuff is ad hoc in the old games.
Anyway, lots to chew on for a project like this. The most useful things I've found for my thinking are Mentzer's old five-stage boxed sets on the one side and then stuff like Trollbabe and Reign on the other. But it hasn't really been done exactly right yet IMO.
In general, if you wrote either of these projects and wanted some synergy, I could get them into Ig's store on lulu (if you decided to go that way) and send you 100% of the author's cut, no vig for the Ig.
- Calithena I will readily concede my tastes put me in a minority. However that minority is one that old school products already appeal to, whereas old school products with new school production values start to vinegar in my taste.
I certainly don't mean to denigrate old school presentation and art. I happen to be very fond of them and, in a couple of cases, I prefer the older ways to the newer ones. But I'm also aware that, even among grognards, this is the minority viewpoint, so, if my goal is to bring some old school goodness to as many gamers as possible, I need to present the products in a way that's more broadly appealing than simply aping TSR circa 1980.Hey Calithena,
Thanks for your copious comments and questions. I don't have the space to answer them all here, but I will clarify one point about Endgame. The goal of this product, should I do it, would be to provide stronger explicit support for playing old school D&D at the higher levels of experience (9th and above). I don't intend to introduce lots of rules nor do I want to systematize or codify anything, since I think these run counter the old school play styles I wish to promote.
Instead, Endgame would be a toolbox of ideas, suggestions, advice, examples, and, yes, some rules to aid the referee in keeping his campaign going once the PCs have reached "name level" and decide to become respectable and settle down. I personally find this a much more satisfying endgame for D&D than the idiocies of epic level 3e, let alone what we'll likely see in 4e, both of which strike me as very much contrary to the spirit of the game as originally envisioned.
So, never fear: this will be a thoroughly old school D&D production, barely touched by newer design sensibilities. In part, the idea for the project percolated because I explicitly wanted to reject newer design sensibilities, which I feel have gone off in the wrong direction, particularly where D&D is concerned.Endgame sounds much more interesting to me (not that Forbidden Island doesn't sound good either, EG just sounds better to me); I suspect, though, as trollsmyth says, that the adventure would sell better and generally be more noticed. (It would also, likely, be plug-n-play with anyone playing the 3.x "Savage Tide" AP from Paizo, which may offer some expanded-market appeal/cross-over sales).
If you're curious, RJK and I noodled around on the campaign play aspects of higher-level PCs in his OJ14 interview @ http://www.oerthjournal.com/oj14.html It may spark a few ideas, perhaps.
grodogThe thing which makes me think Forbidden Isle isn't so hot of an idea is a simple one: there's plenty of people writing old-school style adventures out there already. (Heck, the Dungeon Crawl Classics line is in every averagely well-stocked game store out there). While I'm sure an adventure written by James will be great, I don't see any reason to believe that it will be so great that it will light a fire of grognardery that will consume the world, or convince a bunch of gamers of the merits of old school play.
This is not a slam on James's design abilities, it's just a fact of gaming life: I've never heard of anyone changing their approach to gaming simply because of an adventure model.
For me, the bottom line is simple. Endgame not only provides something that old school D&D lacks, it's also an example of the type of product that people simply don't seem to be making for old school games any more. If the commercial presence of "Old School" is to amount to anything more than a particular flavour people apply to adventure modules, people need to be designing more than just adventures, no?- AnonymousMay 13, 2008 at 9:01 AM
Let me preface this comment by saying I would buy either product as soon as it was offered. I like both ideas.
If forced to choose, however, I would choose your Forbidden Isle concept. I would argue that there really is a dearth of adventure support for A/D&D; bear in mind that only a couple of the Dungeon Crawl Classics are actually converted to AD&D rules, the vast majority being written for 3.5.
I like the fact that the Isle lends itself to modularity; if successful you can always produce additional modules in the series. (One caveat; it does sound a tad similar to the Lendore Isle series, but I might be wrong.)
While I like the concept behind Endgame, I'm wondering just what sort of form it would take. If a supplement, I wonder what "crunch" (to use the modern term) it would include that wasn't included in the DMG, which covers costs of construction, hirelings and soldiery, etc. If an adventure, I'm wondering how you could construct it so that it would be applicable to a contemporary party; construction of strongholds is something of an individual PC effort. I don't think you need to appeal to both the grognards and "old school curious". As you say, the grogs have everything they need, so why target them at all? If you want to grow the "old school movement", target the curious.
(Although, I think there are a lot of us who fall somewhere in the middle, too.)
I think both ideas sound fantastic. While there may be modules targeting the grogs, are there a lot that are targeting the curious?
The Endgame is something that I also think could use more exploration. I have nothing wrong with the "I don't want the nature of the game to change at higher levels" point-of-view. That's fine for them who like it.
But I think more consideration needs to be given to the alternative. The idea that the single-digit levels are the "colored belts". They're training. Name level is black-belt. You've completed your training. You've mastered the basic skills of your class, and so it is no longer about improving your basic skills. It's about becoming an "adult" PC. About taking your place in the world. That needs to be explored in a manner that isn't about mass-combat rules or war machines or domain management systems.
And there is some room for some random tables there. What's the Endgame equivalent of the random dungeon generator?- AnonymousMay 13, 2008 at 11:06 AM
I'm still curious about what exactly you envisage Endgame to be James. It's sounding to me like for the most part it will be twofold: 1) rules for building and maintaining a domain in terms of cost as well as resources that can be developed and 2) something along the lines of wargame rules where you would take your armies out into the game world to expand your holdings/powers.
Is number 2 the case? If not what actual 'role-play' elements do you see in the endgame level of play? How does a character who is now in effect a warlord of some kind continue on an adventure path without either getting into the high-level superheroics you mentioned or becoming merely the figurehead (in game-play terms) leader of an army fighting a wargame? Re: Adventures
It's true, I think, the old school market isn't exactly suffering from a lack of adventure modules. Indeed, I'd argue that there are in fact too many of them out there (the reasons for which I really should write about soon). However, I think far too many of the putatively old school modules out there these days -- those by Necromancer and Goodman, particularly -- aren't really old school at all. They are much more plot-drive and modern to be called old school unironically and many of them contain concepts that are thoroughly modern. So, I think there's room for more truly old school adventures.
That said, Endgame (or whatever I call it) does seem to be something a lot of people would enjoy and that hasn't been done to death in an old school context. It'd also take a lot more work to do properly, which is why I might need to do something else beforehand to set the stage.Let me say, at this point, that Endgame is just an idea and a pretty inchoate one at that. I do not have any of the details worked out or indeed a strong sense of what it would include or not include. So, unfortunately, until I do, I have no answers to the very many excellent questions people have posed here and elsewhere. All
I can say at this point is this: I think there's a need for a book that details the ins and outs of high-level old school play. That's never really been done before except in a vague way. My own interest isn't so much in making lots of new rules -- though there'd have to be some -- so much as providing lots of advice and examples to inspire others in their own games. Beyond that, I have no specifics yet and won't for some time. This is still very early, so I hope everyone will bear with me as I sort out what I want to do and how I will proceed.
Thanks.Re: Necromancer and Goodman's output not being genuinely "old school"...
The thing is, I'm not convinced that the best response to that situation is to put out Yet Another Module which will be lost in the tide (seriously, everyone and his mother is putting out modules these days). At best, you'll be a lonely voice wailing in the storm; unlikely to be heard, since you'll quite likely be drowned out by the likes of Goodman and Necromancer.
It's difficult. On one hand, I can see why it would be a bad thing to let Goodman et al. define "old school" as "linear adventures". On the other hand, I'm increasingly of the opinion that the true definition of "old school" is "the style of play you started out with, provided that you've been roleplaying for at least a decade".
For someone who started out playing through the Dragonlance modules and their successors, linear adventures are "old school". Heck, I've seen people on World of Darkness forums talking about the older WoD games as being "old school".- AnonymousMay 13, 2008 at 11:40 AM
Actually, I would like to rephrase your question to 'Which of these should I do first?'
In which case, I would think starting with simpler and then move on to the more complex.
[Switching to elf mode]OTOH, if you aren't really going to do both, I would tend to agree with Arthur's comments and go with Endgame. "It'd also take a lot more work to do properly, which is why I might need to do something else beforehand to set the stage."
Yeah. I think both The Forbidden Isle and Endgame would be ambitious projects. If I were you, I would want to do the module first, but I'd also want to come up with something even smaller to start with.
A short "side trek" sort of adventure? A short work expounding on lesser-known aspects of the low-to-mid-level game? Something concerning the endgame but focusing on a particular part of it?Re: Old School
While I think there are many legitimate usages of the term, when I use the term I mean it to refer only to the content and style of play that existed in the hobby between 1974 and 1983 or thereabouts. It's fuzzy, yes, because there are many things within those nine years that aren't old school and some after 1983 that are, but that's what I generally mean.Re: Book of Ruins and Book of Treasure Maps
That's actually a really brilliant idea and one that might achieve what I want with less trouble and immediate expense. I just commented earlier today to a friend that Judges Guild is the model of what I want to do. Guess I should have taken my own advice. :)I'd also take a look at Dr. Rotwang's recent review of Darthanon Queen, also by Judges Guild.
By suggesting multiple spins on the same location, you can demonstrate why Keep on the Borderlands isn't a broken module. :p
- Brian- AnonymousMay 13, 2008 at 2:39 PM
I think one of the vast ironies of "old school" A/D&D is that we were never given an example of how the game was actually played in its earliest formative years.
That is, all of the modules that TSR came out with early on were, by necessity, tournament modules. They were linear, with a defined goal, and the proverbial Boss guarding the Treasure Room. This, I think, is where Goodman Games gets their inspiration from; modules like the G or A series.
However, as is clear from reading not only accounts of the Greyhawk, Maure Castle, etc. campaigns, as well as the PH and DMG (as well as the LBB's) is that the original original campaigns were centered on a single, vast dungeon complex with no particular singular goal (at least, none that was immediately known to the PCs; to wit, the "slide to China" on level 13 of Castle Greyhawk). PCs were left to formulate their own goals and pretty much wander about the place killing things and taking their stuff. Smaller self-contained modules (such as S3) were side-treks, rather than the central focus. Yet we never got any model for the mega-dungeon concept back in the day; it was all tournament modules. I think this lack has colored a lot of folks' idea of what "old school" campaigns were like.
I've been thinking that there might be a market for modular mega-dungeon levels (or groups of levels) that could either be inserted into a DM's own mega-dungeon complex or pieced together to form a singular whole. Seems to me that would be a lot more genuinely old-school than most of us realize...
PS - I also like the "Treasure Maps" idea; lots of good ideas here for an enterprising budding game publisher. - AnonymousMay 13, 2008 at 4:51 PM
I like both ideas, of course, but I agree with the comment that there are lots of adventures out there, while Endgame is something new that also fills an obvious gap. If I had to choose, I'd choose Endgame.
In terms of appealing to a wide audience, would you consider publishing it for Castles and Crusades? I like all Old School systems, but C&C seems to be the most commercially thriving, as well being the most compatible with 3e. I can't imagine Osric, LL or BFRPG ever becoming a major part of the RPG scene, but I can imagine C&C doing so. There are people who think Keep on the Borderlands is "broken?" The mind boggles. It's about as close to perfect as old school D&D gets.
Yeah, well, you might have the best power drill in the world, but if you try to use it as a hammer you just end up with a bent nail, a broken drill, bruised knuckles, and a lot of anger and frustration.
- Brian- AnonymousMay 13, 2008 at 10:18 PM
ry, very insightful comment here. I may have to expand on it at some point, because I think it bears repeating.
Thanks. I've been working on it 30 years or so. ;-) C&C is a great system and I agree that, of the various "neo-retro" games out there it's the one with the biggest following and has had the most commercial success. It's not quite what I want, though, and key elements of the system aren't open, so I'd require a license from Troll Lords, so I'm looking at other options, at least for the moment.
ReplyDelete- AnonymousMay 14, 2008 at 12:32 PM
I concur about the C&C rules. Maybe it's the D20 elements they've inserted, but it just feels ever-so-off-kilter to me. That doesn't stop me from buying it all, of course, if for no other reason than to support a company whose heart is in the right place.
The modules (CZ!) are especially interesting to me, as I can use them in my AD&D campaign with next to no conversion.
Joe I fell in love w/ C&C after the announcement of 4e. In fact, it's so well done that, I'm teaching both of my daughters.
That said, I'm a total hard-core swords and sorcery nut job. I love the "feel" of oder modules... Lost City and Night's Dark Terror are two of my faves... Now, although Goodman Games produces the Dungeon Crawl Classics, I don't feel that they're a decent representative of that ever elusive "feel" that I had mentioned previously. I'm not knocking DCCs, I like them, they're just not exactly what I'm looking for.
So, in lieu of my rather verbose and nonsensical rant, I'd purchase your Lost Isle at the drop of a hat.
End Game sounds pretty cool too. But I'm partial to adventures. I read through them and cherry pick all day long.Re: DCC
The Dungeon Crawl Classics line are pretty much a paradigmatic example of nostalgia products rather than old school ones. With a few exceptions, they concentrate on the externals of the old school modules rather than their actual content.
Which is fine. I think many of the DCC modules were among the best produced in the 3e era, but they're mostly very modern in their design and sensibilities, despite the blue and white cartography and amateurish interior art.The forbidden island idea is something I'd like to see developed. I worked on an island setting for my homebrew a couple years back but the native islanders weren't remnants from an ancient advanced culture, the natives instead were young and blessed with a homeland that was rich in natural and magical resources. This made them powerful, but not evil. Adventurers arrive on an island as citizens of an empire who is intent on colonizing the island so it's sort of a frontier type of scenario.


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FOXBOROUGH, Mass. (AP) - Joe Flacco outdueled Tom Brady, throwing three touchdown passes in the second half and leading the Baltimore Ravens to their first Super Bowl in 12 years with a 28-13 victory over the New England Patriots on Sunday for the AFC championship.
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The Ravens (13-6) gained just 130 yards in the first half before Flacco guided them on scoring drives of 87 and 63 yards.
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New England outgained Baltimore 214 yards to 130 in the half. Brady completed 14 of 24 passes for 139 yards, while Flacco went 6 for 12 for 81 yards. Neither team committed a turnover.
The scoring pass to Bolden ended a drive on which Flacco completed five of six passes, the longest a 23-yarder to Torrey Smith.
The touchdown by Pitta capped the Ravens' best drive of the game, covering 87 yards in 10 plays. It started with a 15-yard defensive pass interference penalty. Then, Flacco completed six of his other nine passes on the series. Three of them went for first downs - 22 yards to Pitta, 15 to Rice and 12 to Bolden that gave the Ravens a first-and-goal at the Patriots 10-yard line.
Flacco then connected with Pitta for a 5-yard pass and finished the drive with another 5-yarder to Pitta, who easily beat single coverage by safety Steve Gregory.
The Patriots began the scoring on Gostkowski's kick, ending a 13-play, 67-yard drive during which Brady completed five of seven passes for 55 yards.
Rice's touchdown ended a 13-play, 90-yard drive that lasted 5:51. Flacco threw completions for first downs of 17 yards to Pitta, 11 yards to Rice, 8 yards to Bernard Pierce and 25 yards to Smith. With a first down at the Patriots 15-yard line, Rice ran for 8 and 5 yards, giving the Ravens a first down at the 2.
After Flacco threw an incompletion out of bounds, Rice took a handoff, ran to the left and scored easily.
Welker's touchdown came 4:18 before intermission and capped an 11-play, 79-yard drive. He scored on a pass to the right as cornerbacks Corey Graham and Chykie Brown appeared to get crossed up on their assignments.
On the first play of the series, Baltimore's Dannell Ellerbe was penalized 15 yards for a blow to the head. Then a 24-yard completion from Brady to Welker gave the Patriots a first down at the Ravens 16-yard line.
Both teams punted on their first possession before the Patriots began their scoring drive at their 21-yard line after a 50-yard punt by Sam Koch.
The Patriots began the series with Brady's 8-yard completion to Brandon Lloyd. The pair teamed up for three completions, gaining 37 yards, on the drive.
The Ravens punted on their first three possessions in the first quarter. The Patriots punted on three of their four series, forcing Baltimore to start deep in its territory.
Online: http://pro32.ap.org/poll and http://twitter.com/AP-NFL


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Getting Help
Q. I don't know how to do something!
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and the forums! You can also ask your fellow regional residents for help by posting on your message board.
Q. Something's not working!
To the Technical Forum! This is where people report bugs and help solve technical problems.
Q. Someone is breaking site rules!
Use the form below!Request for Moderator Intervention
Please be nice to our moderators! They are volunteers.
[+] Guide to Making an Effective Help Request
1. Please tell us exactly what the problem is. "_______ is bothering me" is too vague to be useful. "Testlandia has sent me three abusive telegrams in the past twelve hours" is better.
2. Tell us who is involved. "Some guy is spamming our region with puppets!" is less useful than: "Testlandia is spamming our RMB and we suspect that Puppet1, Puppet2, and HaHaYouCan'tProveIt'sME are also their puppets."
3. To report a specific telegram, dispatch, or post on a Regional Message Board, click its timestamp (e.g. "12 minutes ago") and use the "Report" link on the next page.
4. You can report misbehavior in the forums by posting in the Moderation forum.
5. We don't police other sites and can't do anything about misbehavior that takes place somewhere else.
6. To request an API key for sending telegrams, ensure your nation is resident in the right region, mention this region in your request, and describe the purpose of the key (e.g. recruiting, WA campaigning). Note that you will be responsible for all usage of the key.


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Jingle All The Way Svg, Christmas Digital File, SVG, DXF, EPS, Png, Jpg, Cricut, Silhouette, Print File
Regular price
"Jingle All The Way" Digital File. Use this file with your Cricut Explore or Silhouette Cameo to create a wood sign stencil or vinyl decal. PNG & JPG files are great for making framed clip art.
Files Compatible With ~
SVG for Cricut Design Space
SVG for Silhouette Studio Designer
DXF for Silhouette Studio
EPS for Adobe Illistrator & CorelDraw
JPEG & PNG - Clip Art for Printing
The PNG has a blank background. Open it in the program of your choice on a white or light colored background for best results.
*******You will not receive a physical copy of this design.******
You will receive a digital format (watermark free) to include ~
SVG ~ DXF ~ JPG ~PNG ~ EPS (in zip folder)
This file is for personal use or small business, not for mass production.
This file is not to be sold as a digital file, sold as clip art, traded, shared, or given away.
Posting this file anywhere on the internet should include the watermark shown in this listing.
Be sure the files listed above will work with your machine before purchase. No refunds will be given on digital files.
If you have any questions I will do my best to assist. I am not familiar with all cutting systems. After you files have been received if you have any problems don't hesitate to contact me and we will work together to figure it out :)


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Can You Burn Off Food Calorie for Calorie By Exercising?
If you indulge in a high-calorie snack, can the calories be burned off calorie for calorie? In other words, if you eat a chocolate cake worth 350 calories, can you counteract it by burning the same 350 calories doing specific exercise?
– Jamie*
When it comes to balancing food eaten with activity, there's a simple equation: energy in = energy out (in other words, calories eaten = calories burned). So, yes, it is possible to burn off food calorie for calorie with exercise. But it's not very practical.
We all need a certain number of calories just to keep our bodies functioning — we're burning calories even while we sleep. In addition, we need calories to fuel our bodies for daily activities like walking, doing school work, and exercising. Everyone has different needs, but the bottom line is that if we eat more than our bodies use, we gain weight — unless we work off the extra calories.
How quickly a person burns off calories depends on things like age, size, and puberty stage. It also depends on how vigorous the physical activity is: Running at 5 mph burns more calories than walking at 2 mph.
So why isn't it realistic to think in terms of exercising away every additional calorie? Most of us don't have the time. It may take 2 minutes to eat a 350-calorie piece of cake, but someone who weighs 100 pounds (about 45 kg) would need to walk for more than 2 hours to burn it off. If you grab a burger, fries, and milkshake after school, and your body doesn't need those calories, you'd have to spend the rest of the day on the treadmill walking it off.
That's why the best approach to eating is to aim for balance: Eat healthy meals and snacks, be aware of portion sizes, and aim for at least 60 minutes a day of moderate to vigorous physical activity.
*Names have been changed to protect user privacy.
Note: All information is for educational purposes only. For specific medical advice, diagnoses, and treatment, consult your doctor.
© 1995-2024 KidsHealth ® All rights reserved. Images provided by iStock, Getty Images, Corbis, Veer, Science Photo Library, Science Source Images, Shutterstock, and Clipart.com


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Privacy Policy
Landmark Funeral Home respects the privacy of our website visitors. Our Mission to being the most professional, ethical, and highest quality funeral and cemetery service organization in the death care industry extends to this Privacy Policy ("Policy"), and we want to ensure that our website visitors know how we collect, use, and protect personal, and other, information.
This Policy applies to personally-identifying information provided by website users, including personally-identifying information collected from any mobile applications. This Policy does not apply to personally-identifying information that website visitors provide to a business partner or third party, even if such business partner or third party is linked to our website.
When you use this site, you agree to the Policy that follows. If you do not agree with this Policy or our Terms of Service, you should immediately cease use of this website.
Information We Collect
We do not collect personally-identifying information from users unless they provide it to us voluntarily and knowingly. We do not share any information with anyone outside our company, except: (1) to allow third parties to process payment for purchases of Tributes, like flowers, (2) when publishing obituaries, guest books, condolences page postings, or other messages intended for online publication, and (3) for Google Analytics (explained in more detail below).
The types of information we may collect are, among other things:
- your name;
- email address;
- address or postal code;
- telephone number; and
- if you purchase flowers or other Tributes, we may collect credit card and other necessary financial data for those purchases.
In addition, when you visit our site, your browser automatically sends us an IP (Internet Protocol) address and certain other information, including the type of browser you use and browser and standard web server log information. We may use this IP address and other information to give you access to the site and otherwise administer the site. However, at this time, we do not send this information to third parties, except as it pertains to Google Analytics.
Cookies: We use cookies – small data files stored on the computer or device you use – that record your preferences. Cookies help us make sure that our websites work, and work efficiently, and help us understand website traffic. Cookies may also help us enforce our Terms of Service and maintain website security. In addition, you may get cookies from other companies that have a link on our websites, but we have no control over these companies' cookies. These third party cookies do not fall under our Policy. Most likely, your web browser has a setting that allows you to modify your preferences so that you can decline cookies. However, if you select this setting you may be unable to access certain parts of the websites. Please see http://www.allaboutcookies.org/ for more information on cookies. Our websites do not currently respond to web browser "do not track" signals.
Web Beacons: Pages of websites may contain web beacons, which are small electronic files that permit us to count visitors who have viewed our pages. We collect certain usage information about our site, such as the number and frequency of visitors to certain parts of the site. This data is used only in the aggregate and does not include any personally identifying information. Web beacons also help us collect other website statistics that help us better understand the functionality and popularity of our website and its content.
Google Analytics: We also use Google Analytics on our sites. Google Analytics is a service that anonymously collects website traffic data through cookies. The data, which includes geolocation data, helps us analyze and review how our website visitors use our websites. The anonymous data is send to, and stored by, Google on servers that are housed in the United States, but the data is not sent to any other third parties. If Google is required to by law, it may transmit the anonymous data to a third party.
Visitor Provided Information: In certain parts of the site, we may ask you to provide us with your name or other information so that we can provide you with information you request or take other action indicated in the part of the site where the information is requested. You are under no obligation to provide us with this information, but without it, we may not be able to take the action requested. The site also includes features that allow you and us to communicate by electronic mail, text message, or otherwise.
If you choose to use these features, you will be required to provide us your e-mail address and other personally-identifying information (such as your name, phone number, or street address) we may deem necessary to communicate with you electronically, by text message, or otherwise, or review your request. When you provide any personally identifying information to us, you acknowledge that you are knowingly and voluntarily providing us the information. We will not use such information for marketing purposes, but we may respond to the electronic mail messages you send us, take other action indicated in the part of the site where the information is requested, and use such information for any other business purpose, including sending you subsequent communications concerning this site, or our Company.
You may also give us information about other people, including a spouse, parent, child, other family member, or friend. We only use this information for the specific reason for which you provide it to us. Note: personally-identifying information included in any portion of an online Tribute, guest book, and condolence, for example, is publicly available, and this Policy does not apply to that information. When buying flowers, users may be given the options to choose to publish the name and card message, publish the name only, or publish neither the name nor the card message
Your Privacy: The information collected is never revealed, sold, or made public for any reason, except for the reasons otherwise stated in this Policy. Personally identifiable information (name, email, phone number, or home address, etc.) is never disclosed to any third party individual or business, except for the reasons otherwise stated in this Policy.
How We Use the Information Collected
We use the information provided to us to:
- Present our websites and their contents to you;
- Provide you with information, products, or services;
- Allow you to participate in the interactive features on our websites;
- Fulfill any other purpose for which you provide the information;
- In any other way as described to you when you provide information;
- Determine your geographic location;
- Work with a potential buyer or seller in the event of a divestiture or acquisition in which personally identifying information held by us through our website is among the assets transferred, provided that, however, such buyer or seller agrees to protect and respect your personally identifying information in a manner consistent with our Policy; and
- For any other purpose with your consent.
What Information We Share
We try to make sure that the personally identifying information you provide us remains private. We will not sell, rent, trade, or otherwise disclose the personally-identifying information you provide to anyone outside of our company, and its respective affiliates, successors, and service providers, except, and subject to the other provisions in this Policy: (1) in response to a Court Order or other legal or government process in which we believe in good faith that disclosure is legally required by us; (2) to defend us or our property, including our websites and users, including to enforce our website's Terms of Service; and (3) if necessary in the unlikely event of an emergency, to protect us, our agents, our website visitors, or the public as required by law, or in a situation in which public authorities are required to deal with an emergency situation.
Please be aware, however, that it may be possible for others to read messages that you send over the Internet, so do not send by e-mail, or post online, any information that you would like to keep confidential.
Other Information You Submit
If you use the communication features of this site to provide us with information other than personally-identifying information, including suggestions about the site, product and advertising ideas, and any other such information, that information will belong to us and may be used, reproduced, modified, distributed and disclosed by us in any manner we choose, without paying compensation to you, to the extent allowed by law.
Children Under 13
We neither market our website to children under the age of 13 nor knowingly collect personally identifying information from children under 13. Website visitors who are under the age of 13 should not use our websites and should not send us personally identifying information. If we learn that personally identifying information regarding a child under the age of 13 has been collected on our websites, we will delete such information.
This web site may contain links to other sites and banner ads that take a visitor to another website. In no case is subscriber information or cookies provided to the third party sites. However, please be aware that we are not responsible for the content or privacy practices of such other sites. We encourage our users to be aware when they leave our site and to read the privacy statements of any other site that collects personally identifiable information. On the Internet, many sites do attempt to capture visitor information when you browse those sites.
Changes to Privacy Policy
We reserve the right, at our complete discretion, to change this Policy at any time by posting revised terms on the site. It is your responsibility to check periodically for any changes we may make to this Policy. Your continued use of this site following the posting of changes to these terms or other policies indicates that you accept the changes. If material changes are made to how we treat our visitors' personally identifying information, we will put a notice on the website with "[UPDATED]" in brackets next to the Policy link. The date that the Policy was last revised will also be identified at the top of the Policy.
How to Contact Us
If you have any questions about this Privacy Policy, please contact us by e-mail by visiting the Contact Us section of our website.
This Privacy Policy as stated herein constitutes the entire agreement between you and the Company with respect to the Company's Policy. No changes to the Policy shall be made except by a revised posting on this page, and you are responsible to be aware of all such changes.
This Policy shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of Texas applicable therein, without regard to conflict of laws. You irrevocably consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts located in the State of Texas in connection with any action arising out of or related to these terms of use or their subject matter. You waive any objection based on lack of personal jurisdiction, place of residence, improper venue or forum non-convenience in any such action.
If any court having competent jurisdiction holds any provision of this Policy invalid or unenforceable in any respect, such provision shall be enforced to the maximum extent permitted by law, and the remaining provisions of this Policy shall continue in full force and effect. No waiver of any provision of this Policy shall be deemed a further or continuing waiver of such provision or any other provision of this Policy.
To California Residents
California Civil Code Section 1798.83 allows our California resident website users to request certain information regarding our disclosure of personally identifying information to third parties for their direct marketing purposes, if any. To make such a request, please contact us by e-mail by visiting the Contact Us section of our website.
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Charter · Patterns · Examples · Documents · Issues · Records · Schedule · Discussion · Participation · Tags
The Working Group was closed on the 10th July 2009.
"There was significant support for the idea of a written 'profile' of XML Schema which would document the sweet spot for purposes of data binding, or for other specific domains. The word profile is problematic; what was meant was not a language subset, but only a definition of the sweet spot in existing processors, which would allow schema authors to get better results and better user experience when data binding tools are used, and which would tell implementors in the relevant domain which parts of schema users are most likely to expect them to support well."
-- Chairs' Report, W3C Workshop on XML Schema 1.0 User Experiences
A pattern is a single XPath expression returning one or more XML Schema nodes. Each pattern has been allocated a stable URI and classified as being either:
The Working Group developed a processor which may be used to detect patterns exhibited by an XML Schema or WSDL document.
There should be at least one example exhibiting each pattern, Each example has been allocated a stable URI, presented inside XML Schema and WSDL descriptions and accompanied by one or more valid instance XML and SOAP documents. The test suite uses the examples to assess support for patterns in databinding implementations.
We used an Issues List to record decisions on how we work, collect known interoperability issues with XML Schema and concrete patterns and examples to be included in our specifications. New issue proposals were made against a specific document by sending mail the public mailing list. When discussing an issue in mail or on IRC, we used identifiers in the form "ISSUE-9" - see Tracker.
Basic Patterns | Advanced Patterns | |||
Chartered | Actual | Chartered | Actual | |
Jan 2006 | First Public Working Draft | |||
Feb 2006 | ||||
Mar 2006 | Last Call Working Draft | |||
Apr 2006 | ||||
May 2006 | First Working Draft | |||
Jun 2006 | Candidate Recommendation | First Public Working Draft | ||
Jul 2006 | ||||
Aug 2006 | Proposed Recommendation | |||
Sep 2006 | ||||
Oct 2006 | Last Call Working Draft | |||
Nov 2006 | Last Call Working Draft | Candidate Recommendation | First Public Working Draft | |
Dec 2006 | ||||
Jan 2007 | ||||
Feb 2007 | ||||
Mar 2007 | Interoperability Workshop | Interoperability Workshop | ||
Apr 2007 | ||||
May 2007 | ||||
June 2007 | ||||
July 2007 | ||||
August 2007 | ||||
September 2007 | Second Last Call Working Draft | Working Draft |
Technical discussion takes place on the Working Group discussion list, firstname.lastname@example.com (archive). This is a public mailing list (subscribe) see the W3C Mailing List Administrivia for guidence.
Formal comments on specifications published by the Working Group should be sent to firstname.lastname@example.com (archive). This is a public mailing list (subscribe) see the W3C Mailing List Administrivia for guidence.
Procedural issues and logistics are discussed on a member-only mailing list (archive) see the administrative page for more details.
W3C Members wishing to join the Working Group filled in the participation form. A list of participants is available. Patent disclosures relevant to this Working Group may be found on the Working Group's patent disclosure page.
Please use the tags w3c and databinding when blogging, bookmarking or snapping this effort.
Copyright © 2005-2008 W3C® (MIT, ERCIM, Keio), All Rights Reserved. W3C liability, trademark, document use and software licensing rules apply. Your interactions with this site are in accordance with our public and Member privacy statements.


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Honda Accord/Acura TSX/TL Air Lift Air Suspension
With the 8th Generation Honda Accord, the Air Lift Performance engineers set out to design a no-compromise lowering solution. What they came up with is a suspension that offers amazing ride quality, premium handling and that sexy, lowered look you are after…and with the push of a button, you can go from fully slammed to speed-bump-clearing heights, taking the worry out of daily driving. Feeling up for a bit of spirited driving on your way home? This kit was designed with the track in mind. With an air pressure adjustment and a choice of 30 different levels of damping, you are ready to carve your favorite curvy piece of asphalt.
Up front, we mated our progressive sleeve-style spring with a monotube threaded body shock, allowing you to drop 4.5″ from factory height. Attaching the shock to the car is an upper mount made from T6061 red anodized aluminum, utilizing a high-quality spherical bearing. Since this is a threaded body shock, you can adjust the lower mount to help dial in the correct height you are looking for–depending on your wheel and tire combination.
For the rear, we use a smooth-riding double-bellows bag over a 30-way adjustable monotube shock, giving you up to 5.2″ of drop without compromising handling and ride comfort.
Detailed instructions will help you get your 8th Gen Accord slammed within a few short hours. If you have the ability to wire a stereo or swap out suspension parts, you should have no problem installing this air suspension kit. If you do run into a snag with installation, the Air Lift Performance tech support team is top-notch, and can walk you through any questions you may have.
In order to bring to market the most durable air suspension possible, Air Lift Performance tortured the components of this kit to one million cycles (equivalent to approximately 100,000 miles) on their hydraulic test rig at temperatures from -30 degrees F to 150 degrees F. Couple this test lab work with thousands of miles of on-road testing—not to mention the one-year manufacturer's warranty—and this is a kit you can count on to handle whatever the road throws down!
Isn't it time you had the option of getting a killer lowered look without giving up ride quality or worrying about scraping your ride? Ditch the springs and get to an entirely new level of low.
- 2008-2012 Honda Accord (Coupe & Sedan)
- 2009-2014 Acura TSX
- 2009-2014 Acura TL (including AWD)