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Tuesday, August 30, 2011
UTMB DNF - What Went Wrong
111 comments:
- Olga said...
Mono? Any other latent viral stuff you may want to get checked for? Just in case. Seems that you've had "tired and not myself with longer recovery time" this year, and it's better to figure it out.
Bummer, of course, on how it went, and you will get crapload of flack, but I think most of us, vivid followers and hopefuls for great runs on Euro turf, settled in and are ready to begin thinking and dissecting:) I am sure you'll be dissecting it a thousand times more than all of us together. May be not, may be you'll just recover and go run when it feels right. At the end, you'll know what YOU need best than we all preach. - August 30, 2011 at 10:55 AM
- Speedgoat Karl said...
Just get injured for a little while, the fire comes back. I'm experiencing that now. I'm not back by any means, but I crave the trail and getting out feels good, even though it's painfully slow right now. Before Hardrock, I was just running because it was there. You'll be back, better than ever most likely.
- August 30, 2011 at 11:02 AM
- Eric B said...
Tough race Geof, you will bounce back. Relax and enjoy the Alaska and Colorado outdoors, that will rejuvenate you.
- August 30, 2011 at 11:07 AM
- Jason said...
Sounds like a rough day at the office. You seem to have the right attitude about it though. I lost my little sister this summer and it has severely impacted my training for my first ultra next month in Lakewood, CO. I hope I can keep a positive mental attitude throughout the race just like you seem to do. You inspire me, and for that I thank you. Best of luck during your rest/recovery Geoff.
- August 30, 2011 at 11:21 AM
- eric said...
i wonder if you carried the feelings associated with the DNF at WS on your back running into france. maybe the burden of expectation and the desire to fulfill other's expectation of you and more importantly your own expectation of yourself could have added some weight.
what you've accomplished already is nothing short of amazing, incredible, a career full of achievement. if you reset and realize you aren't going to run another race, nothing could change what you've already done, nothing could diminish it.
those were 2 pretty big races, but still only 2 races. a mere blip.
so i hope you enjoy your reset... and i hope you come back and show us all what you can do once again, always as long and as much as you enjoy it. - August 30, 2011 at 11:26 AM
- A Salinger said...
Geof, it sounds like you know what to do...take some time off, slowly get back into it for the love of running trails, and see where it takes you. Enjoy your journey.
- August 30, 2011 at 11:28 AM
- Alfonso Lopez said...
Hello Geoff, i follow your blog since 2008 and i am sure that emerge even more energy than ever, I hope to follow from Spain in the UROC race, proper rest and enjoy your lasagna,sorry for my bad english
Alfonso , Barcelona (Spain) - August 30, 2011 at 11:31 AM
That is a major bummer. I did not get much sleep following the race over the Internet and was sorry to hear about your DNF.
Must be a lesson in patience and humility but I am sure you are the right person with the right attitude to bounce back and show them all. - August 30, 2011 at 11:44 AM
- pasi.koskinen said...
Do the recovery - you only knows what works for you. BUT DON`T QUIT!
Your attitude for ultra running is so right that some dnf runs are not meaningfull for continuation.
My mom past her days on february, two months after that i run 100 miles. My mind was full of pain but only for continue my life as ultrarunner i have to do it - and i did! You can always recover - but you must sometimes rest a while. - August 30, 2011 at 12:04 PM
- AJW said...
Great post. I'm with you brother. While I am certainly nowhere near the runner you are I hit a wall of sorts after WS100 and just felt crappy all summer. Finally, I gave into a bad case of PF that has forced me to push the reset button for the first time in 5 years. It's a bummer to not be out there every day but in the end, and in the long run, it'll be the best thing to do. See you in Squaw:)
AJW - August 30, 2011 at 12:40 PM
- Matt Hart said...
sorry to read this geoff. look up adrenal fatigue and see if that fits the bill. good sleep, good nutrition and a real break from running should fix you up. probably also worth getting a good cortisol test... meaning not just one since it should spike in the morning and dwindle at night so you can sleep. get it tested multiple times during the same day. if it's backwards, there is a problem. this leads to tired and wired - cortisol is low in the morning making you lethargic, then high at night so you can't easily fall asleep.
- August 30, 2011 at 1:50 PM
- Cloud said...
Geoff: I may across as a dickhead and I probably am a total dickhead. I've worked with enough great athletes (mostly tri guys) over the years to have come up with some conclusions about training that are pretty solid. Firdt among these is the critical need for rest and peaking for 1-2 races a year. There have been lots of great ultrarunners who make a big splash and then disapppear because they burned themselves out. Anton is in jeopardy of this and honestly his leg injury was a God send and the best thing that ever happened to him. Kyle Skaggs did a disappearing act after Hardrock. Jurek is irrelevant now save that 165+M performance last year. Mackey should have finished nd or 3rd at States but was too tired from all that racing. And now you face the same prospect. You raced way too much in 2011 and it's caught up with you. You are not Kilian, who is, what, 10+ years younger than you are. You need to protect your body and allow recovery. Target 1-2big races a year and that's it. Show up at those races well-rested and in peak shape and you'll once again dominate.
- August 30, 2011 at 1:53 PM
- Cloud said...
People can call me every word in the book but I aint' gonna kiss Roes ass and tell him everythings OK. The difference between elites and also-rans is that elites need people who are gonna level with them. A big reason we see elite disappearing acts is that no one was there to help them maintain and expand on their natural talents. They squandered the Gift by over-racing. Case in point Salazar.
- August 30, 2011 at 1:56 PM
- runningfarmer said...
Thanks for taking the time to reach our and share your thoughts about UTMB. It can't be an easy thing to have such high expectations and then publicly express coming up short. That takes confidence and cohones. Perhaps one lesson for the masses in the aftermath of this year's UTMB is that a multitude of factors have to come together and stay that way to perform well. And we all know that isn't always how it comes out.
Thanks for being who you are and for doing what you do. Like many others, I look forward to the next chapter.
Cheers! - August 30, 2011 at 2:08 PM
- Heath said...
There's no shame in listening to your body. You are still an incredible inspiration to me, whether it be your running results or your humility, as I train for my first ultra in December. I signed up for the UROC 1/2 marathon as a training run...just to be in the shadows of your running greatness.
Thanks for doing what you do, and making your thoughts available to the rest of us. - August 30, 2011 at 2:17 PM
- Dave Mackey said...
Nice efforts Geoff You are on right track with recovery. You're only human (well, mostly). Most ultrarunners completely underestimate what it takes to recover. Maybe time to enjoy the finest of fall mountain biking and camping (and beer) that the Colorado high country has to offer.
- August 30, 2011 at 3:02 PM
- Unknown said...
Thanks for sharing your (bad) experience at UTMB. I was wondering if you did not under-estimate the effect of jet-lag, especially on a body that as you are yourself saying, was slow to recover...
Also, the cold rain is certainly part of the reasons for the cramping (even though you may have experience colder stuff without any effect before).
I think you need a long rest, and then a strong win in a 100 Mile to recover for both the body and the mind.
With WS then UTMB, you are having a bad season. But a season is just a season... You will come back, stronger than before. I hope to see you again next year at UTMB. In the lead pack for most of the race of course... And if possible, with other resting runners, like Tony...
Enjoy your rest, do the stuff you usually don't have the time to.
And next time you take the plane, don't forget to put an extra pair of shoes in your hand-luggage.
Erwan - August 30, 2011 at 3:08 PM
- Ultra168 said...
Great words Geoff and a massive insight into what you elites have to go through just to make it to the start line. Anton summed it up brilliantly in that only 2% of athletes turn up to race an ultra and you are definitely one of those guys. Rest and rediscovering that spark to put a solid level of training together will come round quickly enough. I am pleased you are so honest with your feedback, it gives us a tiny glimpse into your world. Best of luck and look forward to seeing you toe the line at WS100 2012
- August 30, 2011 at 3:22 PM
- Jason said...
Aside from Mr Mackey, I'm surprised how many of you seem to have all the answers for Geoff. How many of you have won ultrarunner of the year? How about Western States? Yeah that's what I thought. Geoff seems to be one hell of a guy, besides being a champion ultrarunner. His camp in Alaska is a great idea and shows just what kind of guy he is. The fact that some are talking sh1t and thinking they have all the answers is laughable. How did YOU do at UTMB this year? Yeah, thought so. Give the guy some respect and keep your self serving negativity to yourself.
- August 30, 2011 at 4:41 PM
- Scott said...
know that whether you rest, or run, or race, so many of us are behind you, and rooting for you. Go, do, be.
- August 30, 2011 at 5:56 PM
- Unknown said...
Wow, tough break, Geof. I don't have any whizz-bang cool words of advice, but just want to wish you a good recovery. Mojo always comes back.
- August 30, 2011 at 7:52 PM
- Burt said...
@ Cloud,
Your conviction is all too easy to come by when you are sitting on the sidelines. Whatever credibility might be lurking in your comments is completely eliminated by the fact that you refuse to give your name or background. Pretty gutless.
Burt Hoovis - August 30, 2011 at 8:10 PM
- Brick said...
A good honest report not blaming anybody else.
Win, loose or DNF you have great style.
And I am sure you will be back stronger than ever.
Good luck. - August 30, 2011 at 8:16 PM
- Alaska Classic said...
Always on your side, Geoff! I like to believe the hard times make the good times shine even brighter. Best of luck to you as you figure it out. God help 'em when you bounce back.
- August 30, 2011 at 8:31 PM
- Matt Dallas said...
Geoff, thank you for your effort, and your humility in publicly sharing what must be a challenging time for you. It is an honor to learn how someone of such an elite level handles success and disappointment. I think all your readers are inspired by how you have raised the bar in running and quietly challenge us to be better in our own lives.
- August 30, 2011 at 8:43 PM
- Eric Strabel said...
I have a feeling, Geoff, that you'll figure out what you need and how best to go about doing it. It is only a matter of some time before you come back stronger than ever, again.
- August 30, 2011 at 8:56 PM
- JR said...
Good post! It happens to us all. Time just get out and enjoy yourself. Break out the bike and or backcountry ski's and give the body a well earned rest.
- August 31, 2011 at 3:58 AM
- Brett said...
I confess I dont know what Cloud has previous said on the blogging message boards. I don't track and read these things that religiously.
But you shouldn't poo-poo what he's saying in response to this post here. Everyone of us should be open to constructive criticisms. It doesn't mean we have to agree with it. But who among us is a perfect person?
If you want someone who will tell you your poop doesn't smell, everything is rosy, and that you are God's gift to the world...well thats what your mother is for. ;) - August 31, 2011 at 5:01 AM
- DustyOldBook said...
I love the honesty and understanding in Ultras. It's a very honourable sport.
I am recovering from injury and with the goal of ccompleting a 100 miler, I am currently doing 3 2 milers a week. But hey, I'm 2% of the way there and the rest is hopefully in the post. I'll go for consistency and make it a long term goal...only 20 now so no rush ;) - August 31, 2011 at 5:41 AM
- dvroes said...
Constructive criticism is one thing, but that is not what Cloud brings to the table. Also, he claims to be something that he obviously is not and he refuses to identify who and what he really is. I'm sure that it bothers most of us far more than it bothers Geoff, but his way of criticizing is hard to understand or accept. - August 31, 2011 at 7:04 AM
- Emma Nicole said...
Hi Geoff,
I just wanted to say that I have a lot of respect for you. You are a great runner and you are honest enough with yourself to DNF if you need to. You listen to your body and do whats best for you. That's what a good runner should do, work with your body and pick your battles with your body. I just wanted to say that I'm impressed and the best of luck with healing and your future runs.
Emma - August 31, 2011 at 8:52 AM
- Jason said...
To anyone who may be confusing my support for ass-kissing, etc - GROW UP. I get the distinct feeling that Geoff runs because he loves it. I doubt he runs to see how many buckles/medals/trophies he can accumulate. He comes off as a family man who loves life and loves running, and he definitely gives back. When I read posts from Cloud, I can't help but wonder "who asked ya?". This is not the NBA. There is no money involved. Just love. And Cloud, you are severely lacking in that dept, brother.
- August 31, 2011 at 9:49 AM
- Marcus said...
Geoff, very candid. Thanks for sharing with us. My advice based on nothing but ten years in the Army and two combat tours (shitty ones) is to take a vacation and drink a beer.
That's the extent of my intricate psychological counselling ability. - August 31, 2011 at 9:50 AM
- Brett said...
Jason, what do you disagree with about Cloud's feedback and why? It would be more constructive to start there then just throw out arbitrary rules on a blog about who can and who cannot reply with advice.
- August 31, 2011 at 12:04 PM
- Brian said...
Despite what people may or may not say the advise is sound that Cloud is giving, I mean how many 100 milers at elevation, do people really feel the human body can take and be run at such at competitve level. Geoff will get it done, I am sure
- August 31, 2011 at 12:09 PM
- Paul Mastin said...
Geoff, Tough race. But I hope you were still able to enjoy some of the most gorgeous scenery in the world, great food, and fellowship with some great folks! And presumably most or at least some of it was on someone else's Euro! Enjoy it while you can. We'll all be looking for the big comeback. I feel certain your racing (and winning) days are far from over.
- August 31, 2011 at 12:17 PM
- David Hill said...
In the history of Western States, who has run it faster than you? That's right, nobody. You've racked up more wins at major races than most could even dream about. You've made your mark, anything else is gravy. Relax and run for your own enjoyment.
David - August 31, 2011 at 12:43 PM
- s_friberg said...
Geoff, even if the UTMB went to hell for you...comfort your self with that you are the one person who made me start running and running long distance, changing my life and starting to feel good and just enjoy running ! So even if the UTMB dident turn out well for you...comfort your self with that you this year have changed a persons life. My life. Take care !
- August 31, 2011 at 1:00 PM
- Jason said...
@Brett/Brian - first of all this is not the forum for a lengthy back and forth debate, so I'll try to make this my last comment. My problem with Cloud's post is that he writes as if Geoff called him up personally and told him all of his goals and dreams regarding running, and asked for help. The author (Cloud) comes off as an arrogant knowitall. And no it doens't make it okay that he started his post by saying "I may across as a dickhead and I probably am a total dickhead". Maybe Geoff doesn't give a shit about longevity (in a "top of the ultrarunning world" kind of way). He may just want to run for enjoyment. Ever think of that? In other words, what's so wrong with a "disappearing act" anyhow? And, has Cloud ever set a WS100 course record? Been called called ultrarunner of the year? What are his credentials? Why does he choose to remain anonymus? Geoff didn't ask for advice here. He TOLD us what went wrong. And so we, his fans, dropped by to support and comfort him, and people like Cloud (and others) basically said we were kissing his ass because of it. I disagree. And I think those naysayers are out of line. Way too many assumptions.
- August 31, 2011 at 1:01 PM
- Jill Homer said...
Well said, Jason.
- August 31, 2011 at 1:09 PM
@Cloud: Why don't you start a blog so that we can comment on it?
:) - August 31, 2011 at 1:14 PM
- Brett said...
Jason, with all due respect, your last comment makes no sense. Do you really think Geoff doesn't care and intends to quit running?
Many others offered suggestions about taking time off, getting cortisol tests, etc. but you didn't seem to care about those people or those ideas.
Like I said (and he admitted too), he may come off as abrasive, but you don't seem to be able to articulate what specifically he may be wrong about. - August 31, 2011 at 3:14 PM
- Jill Homer said...
Brett, I'm not really one who should get involved in this debate, but I think what Jason was pointing out is that amid all this chatter about what certain runners "need," no one is asking what they want, which is the more important question.
Personally I don't have a lick of talent and for that I'm actually kind of grateful. It can wonderful to do something beautiful and challenging for the love of it, without expectations. No one has really asked Geoff if he actually cares about those expectations, or if he's just a talented guy, doing something he loves, who ended up near the front.
Not to mention he obviously already understands what it takes for him to succeed in 100-mile events. Which is why, as Jason mentioned, he's explaining what went wrong, rather than rattling off excuses or asking for advice. I'd take his word over some anonymous know-it-all who works with triathlon athletes. The fact is, ultrarunning is still too new and too small to draw conclusive scientific evidence on what works. It's really an experiment of individuals, which is one of the intriguing aspects of this sport. - August 31, 2011 at 3:35 PM
- Brett said...
Hi Jill, yes Geoff knew how to race 100 miles (and to win and to get CRs every time too). But look at the DNFs this season. Could it be that Geoff raced too much and it eventually caught up to him? Maybe yes, maybe no. That's Cloud's point (if I am reading it right) and nobody that I can see is discussing that idea directly. Rather they are saying they don't know who this Cloud guy is or what his credentials are or he didn't say it nicely enough.
- August 31, 2011 at 4:00 PM
- Charlie said...
Hi Brett,
It would be worth looking back over Cloud's past comments on Geoff's and Anton's blogs however he tends to delete them.
The main tone of the posts is: I am a super coach who trains elite athletes; I wish to remain anonymous but you all know me; I have Geoff's/Anton's best interests at heart; and I am right, you are wrong and you are an (insert expletive)for doing what you are doing.
My issue with his posts is they are 1) abusive and highly disrespectful and 2) Cloud makes a number of claims about his credibility without offering any evidence while, at the same time, ripping to shreds two athletes that have done incredible things in the sport of ultra running.
I agree that everyone has the right to his/her opinion however that opinion can and should be expressed with respect and without resorting to personal abuse.
If Cloud is a coach and he treats his athletes like that I doubt he has too many who stick with him. Tough love sure, but ridicule and abuse are hardly a winning formula. - August 31, 2011 at 4:29 PM
- Jeff said...
Finkel is Einhorn!...Einhorn is Finkel! Cloud, I mean Brett, i think we know who you are now.
- August 31, 2011 at 4:33 PM
- Local Mind Media said...
This whole over racing conversation is not making sense. Geoff's had a pretty light year compared to past seasons. He's completed one 100 miler that he ran at his own comfortable pace non-contended.
in 09 he raced/finished three 100s, all course records. in 10 he raced 300 miles by this time of the year.
He's likely not over-raced this season and he points out that he simply didn't have the fitness to race hard at utmb. Not having the fitness is different than over-raced, so drop that line of argument; it's tiresome reading it.
Unlike everyone else here, I'm in no position to give the guy advice, other than bring warm clothes when he takes the bus back to Nederland after a Boulder run.
Jill's correct, in that he knows how to run these things. Simply, just needs a break and figure out what's going to make him happy and feel like competing.
Man, and people called ME an armchair ultrarunner before.... - August 31, 2011 at 4:37 PM
- Brett said...
Jeff - really? lol
- August 31, 2011 at 4:55 PM
- Ben Nephew said...
Hopefully some time off does the trick, but as others have said, it might be a good idea to get checked out for chronic fatigue and other associated ailments (anemia, Cushing's, Addison's). Training and racing at a high level is obviously stressful, and it is hard to figure out what too hard is. A teammate of mine, Peter Maksimow had a very long battle with chronic fatigue, but is now running faster than ever. He is in Manitou Springs, and he's a pretty friendly guy. Good luck with the recovery.
- August 31, 2011 at 5:26 PM
- MannImSchatten said...
I side with Brett. Cloud has been annoying, rude and arrogant, but essentially he's been right. That's his credential from my perspective. Pretty much anybody offers here unsolicited advises, support, good mojo and other stuff. What is different about Cloud ? ... pretty much nothing and everything. I personally respect anybody's right for anonymity on the internet and judge people solely by their (online) actions and whether they turn to be right or not. Cloud's been right, and hundreds of those who despised him and said that Geoff knows better and will rock both WS as well as UTMB were not. Please don't take me wrong, I am a huge, HUGE fan of Geoff, and it hurts me to read about his DNF's, but I also believe that patting his back and telling him that "everything will be fine, and you know the best" does not lead anywhere. Geoff won all nine 100 milers he ran and most of them with CR, but suddenly he DNF'ed in two races which were the most important for him ... so obviously Geoff does NOT know everything the best. I personally have nothing for an advice - I am a mid packer myself - but I also do not want to trash a person who was right at the end (even though I hated his language). From my perspective, I think I can learn something from Geoff as well as from the (dickhead) Cloud.
Vlad - Los Alamos, NM - August 31, 2011 at 9:03 PM
- GMack said...
I was part of the generally poor performance by U.S. male runners at UTMB this year. Congrats to the U.S. runners who finished and thanks for salvaging some of our national dignity. I DNF'd at Champex (76 miles) because my quads were shot and I couldn't walk. I'm experienced at the art of the death-march to finish a 100, but wasn't even capable of that. I've had two other UTMB finishes and performed a little better than my abilities, so the DNF this year was especially disappointing.
Given a lot of thought, I can't figure out why myself and so many other experienced 100 mile mountain runners couldn't physically or wouldn't continue. For me, I was a little under-trained. And running the first 10 hours in near freezing temps and wet, when I'd been training in 100+ degree temps at home in Dallas, didn't help. Every time I stopped at an aid station, I'd get hypothermic and would start shaking. This took away a lot of strength.
IMO, the lesson for the U.S. from UTMB, HR and WS this year is that we need to take a new look at how we approach the sport at the elite level. It's always been a grass-roots activity in the U.S., but in Europe, it's become professional. Team Salomon is out to win and shows all of the preparation and focus of a Tour de France team. Sure, they've got Killian, but anyone can be beaten on any day. It's team training and the organization which produces consistent results. Salomon's reward has been dominance in major ultra events and apparently great sales for their products. In Chamonix, for instance, they couldn't keep Salomon's $235 running packs and $190 shoes on store shelves.
U.S. sponsored male athletes don't seem to have the same focus required at this level, despite the talent. We're capable of exceptional individual performances, but the structure isn't there for sustained/reliable excellence. All of the European runners I spoke to realize this about the U.S. What's surprising is that president of Montrail, Topher Gaylord, is one of the most experienced UTMB runners there is and he's seen year after year of top U.S. male runners crater at UTMB. You'd think team Montrail would have been a big threat to Salomon. I'd suspect he's planning an answer (Geoff should be a big part), and so should other trail running sponsors with their teams. - September 1, 2011 at 6:57 AM
- Geoff said...
I agree with your points to some degree, but I think there is more to it than this. I'll probably write a whole post about this sometime soon.
Do you really feel like it's such a black and white issue that it can be quantified as either right or wrong? If Cloud is "right" and I had tough races at WS and UTMB because I raced too much early in the year then (as footfeathers pointed out), how do you explain that in 2010 when I raced just as much early in the year I ran WS faster than anyone in the history of the race? I've been physically burnt out for the better part of the past few months but to say that this is definitively because of the racing I did in the early part of this year is pretty ridiculous when you consider that this is the 4th year in a row in which i've done this much racing and in 3 out of 4 of those years I have had a performance peak in mid to late summer. Running 100 miles is much more of an art than a science. what works for one doesn't automatically work for another. it's just not as black and white as you're wanting it to be.
as to the comment: "suddenly DNFed in the two races that were the most important for him", Sorry buddy, but you don't get to decide which races are the most important for me. just as i don't get to decide which are the most important for you. Cloud has been trying to do this all year. his constant insistence that i was wasting my time doing two-bit races in the spring when i should be focusing on the biggest race of my life (WS) was quite pathetic and comical really. For me all races are important and satisfying, sometimes in very different ways. rarely though do i think of certain races as more important than others... just different. I understand that for a lot of people WS is the most important race, but that doesn't mean that it has to be for everyone. I would have loved to do well at WS and UTMB, but despite these tough races i'm very proud of the year of running i've had in 2011. I've won 4 of the 7 races i've run (not even sure if anyone else has won more ultras than this in 2011); Chuckanut was one of the best races i've ever had; santa barbara was probably the best i've ever felt all the way through a 100 miler; and the training i did in alaska this summer (including my running camps) was probably the most satisfying stretch of running i've ever had. In all 2011 has been a great year of running for me. and now i'm a bit burnt out and i need a break. not the end of the world by any means. and my plan is to come back stronger than ever, as i've done the two other times i've been burnt out like this. - September 1, 2011 at 11:40 AM
- Cloud said...
Geoff=million dollar legs, golden heart (yes I believe Geoff has a very good heart and is a good person), but a five cent head.
everyone, I don't wanna go into my credentials to much. As I stated on here before my background is in tris at the ironman level but I got into ultras a little too and have finished a few decent races like ws100, hardrock, Wasatch and a few others. Today i coach anywhere from 10-15 athletes; they want my services because I design training plans WITH THEM that get them in peak shape for the 1 or 2 raaces each year that matter. i always customize a plan to the athlete. they like my honest feedback and i like the same from Them.
Anyway, back to Geoff. Geoff doesn't fucking get it in his denial that races like ws100 and UTMB are not plainly the biggest races he has on the calendar. The very fact that he would weigh them all the same--as in chuckanut being just as important as the fucking western States 100 or UTMB, says point blank what his fucking problem is. Some races mean more than others! Sorry but it's a fact! And its a fact a goddamn elite running should know!
Geoff I would think you'd realize that theres such a thing as cumulative stress. Sure you raced like a wild man last year (2010) and had a hell of a year but this year you've been kind of a nonfactor, bro. The stupid April 100 miler you did set back your already stressed body from 2010. it all adds up.
Sorry but it is a damn FACT that in competitive running you have peak cycles. you can't race yeer-round of else your gonna burn out, like what your facing now. You get up for a few race a year and design a whole training program around those. - September 1, 2011 at 12:04 PM
- Eric Strabel said...
Cloud, you've stated your points. And they are legitimate. No one here has a problem considering your input, but it is your tone. It is an arrogant tone that does not mesh well with Geoff's and readers' here. It is a difficult art and one that I have had to work on myself. Perhaps you forgot to change tones from coach to fellow participant.
Example, why do you feel it so important to argue with Geoff about which races are important to him? That is his right. His approach may be different than yours and mine, but that does not have to mean that one is wrong. And to grandstand that yours is the correct one is further divergence from the level of humility in this sport.
Your points are good to consider, but they lose effectiveness without presenting them appropriately to your readers.
I hope this long train of comments on this subject is coming to a close. We all have better things to do and enjoy. Good luck Geoff and we look forward to reading more of your posts! - September 1, 2011 at 1:05 PM
- Alaska Classic said...
Cloud - I hate paying attention to someone like you, but I have to ask: Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? Ewwww.
- September 1, 2011 at 1:16 PM
- Geoff said...
your inability to understand the simple concept that you don't determine which races are the most important for me is arrogant, ignorant, and really quite comical. You're free to feel that WS is some kind of sacred and holy thing, above and beyond other 100 mile races. I acknowledge that this is the case for a lot of people, but that certainly doesn't mean that it is for everyone. If you really have 10-15 clients your insistence on keeping yourself anonymous makes a lot more sense. if they all knew that "cloud" was their coach you'd likely struggle to retain any of them.
i actually agree with you about the accumulated stress of racing a lot and that this has been a huge factor in why i'm feeling burnt out right now. the difference is that you seem to think that being burnt out is some horrible thing that one needs to avoid like the plague. it's not that big of a deal. i've felt this before and i'll feel it again. i've also rebounded really strong from this before and i will this time. you seem to think that having success as a runner only means having one or two really high performance races a year. for many people that is primarily what they want out of their running. but sorry man, that aint what i'm going for. never has been and never will be, and the sooner you accept that the sooner you'll stop looking like such a dogmatic idiot in the comments you make here and other places.
probably the most ironically funny thing about all of it though is that you are insisting that the way i train/race is so wrong and that I should just be focusing on one or two peak races a year at a time when I have had one of the best 3 or 4 year stretches in the history of the sport in terms of one or two top performances each year. you can spout off your dogmatic training advice all you want, but at some point it makes a lot more sense to believe in what has happened than in what one believes "should" happen. - September 1, 2011 at 1:31 PM
- MannImSchatten said...
of course the issue is not SO black and white, and I hope you can understand that many of the ideas expressed here (mine or of the others) are simplified for clarity and to limit the word-count. I do not believe that you went to WS nor UTMB to quit somewhere in the middle of the race. I am convinced (same as 95% of your readers/fans) that you wanted to perform well, which in your terms, after 9-0 record, pretty much means fighting for the podium at least. There were very few dissent voices warning that you will not do very well (for the sake of argument - let's forget about the rudeness factor for now). It is fair to say they were more right than me, you and most of all your fans. Did Cloud identify 100% correctly what did you do wrong ? Probably not, I can't say with certainty, but I think he had made several good points and as he does I also believe in cumulative stress, and fatigue factors as well. This may explain why you could keep going like last year for a while but suddenly it went quickly south. I do not believe that one particular race (st.barbara) broke your back, but rather that it is a complex issue of which running may only be a part. Burn-out syndrome is a serious thing in all walks of life, and I have been through that in my field myself. Yet again, few saw it coming, most of the others (including me, and perhaps you as well) not. Maybe that is the reason why pretty much all best athletes in all sort of sports have coaches who can tell them unbiased opinion from a different perspective. That is the difference between "subjective" and "objective", that is why some people may sometimes know more about you than you know yourself, even though they have never been as successful as you were nor have that much experience as you.
Concerning the most important races for you - of course, it is all your call, and I apologize for extrapolating too much based on my interpretation of your blog. I, as your fan, would like you to have WS and UTMB as the most important and the most successful races ... but it is just my wishful thinking. Perhaps I should change the wording to "most high-profile races". Anyway, I really wish you bounce back and achieve level of personal satisfaction and performance as you have in the past, I really do.
Vlad - September 1, 2011 at 1:48 PM
- Jeff said...
Cloud, your dad should've pulled out
- September 1, 2011 at 2:15 PM
- UltraJegi said...
I can't believe that some of you guys fall into the trap of a simple internet troll. There's only one way to deal with that - ignore. Seriously. Replying gives him - and more importantly the tone and method - credit. As amusing as it is to see the flame war from the sidelines, I think it takes a lot away from communicating with people who care and have something real to say.
Geoff, you do seem to be going back on your own posts claiming you didn't care much about UTMB though - 2 posts back you said it was your "focus race" for a whole year. But that doesn't bother me at all, I just think it makes you look bitter. Then again I probably would be, too.
One thing I would mention though is that all the top runners who get a lot of flak right now sort of asked for this. Let me explain.
Geoff, you call yourself elite, endorse products, take money, coach, and even baasically suggested Hardrock should let the "elite" runners in - knowing well that there is a VERY limited number of spots (I admit as a 6-time applicant who only got to run it once that's gave me pause. Hardrock is the very hard work of dedicated volunteers, and absolutely it's their race.). You're sort of telling us you're better than us. And in pure speed, there is not the faintest doubt.
The running "elite" is re-defining the sport of sorts - I remember a while back when people like Monica Scholz, Hans-Dieter Weisshaar, John DeWalt or Lucinda Fisher, who finished her first 100 miler after 17!! failed attempts in 12 years, had as much credit as the winners (and to be honest are a lot more inspiring, too). You guys don't care as much about toughing it out because, I wouldn't know but I guess - it's not really something you need or even want to train for if you aim for the fastest time. There's no reason why you should be good at it, and that's totally ok - everyone has their own goals. (It IS, however, possible to do it - without killing your body, I might add - but it's definitely tricky.) But the focus on commercial competition and the elite seems to de-emphasizes the value in other traits such as doing extraordinary feats relative to your own challenges. I don't think this comes from any of you on purpose, and maybe I'm wrong. But to me it looks a little like it.
I think it's awesome you get some support, and I hope you can make a living off it. I actually don't myself care what it does to existing ultra races, because there are other events, and always will be, where winning is secondary to the finish, and it's no problem to seek or create such events, and the more choices one has the better.
You shouldn't be surprised though that people care, criticise, encourage, etc ... as I said, you sort of asked for this.
On a different note I think it's refreshing to see that all the top level runners - American and European alike - come across as really awesome, down to earth, cool people (IRunFar's interviews are worth watching). The only reason I wouldn't want to go for a run with you guys is because I'd probably kill myself afterwards.
Btw, for a little inspiration, you should watch this. It's John DeWalt finishing his 14th Hardrock at the age of 73 ... he fell late in the race and had to tough the last few hours out: http://youtu.be/C15pOfuhZrg .
Anyways, in the end you got to where you are by doing what you like doing - not by giving a f*ck about what other people say. I'm sure if you continue on that path, you'll be successful in whichever way you define success.
Beat - September 1, 2011 at 3:05 PM
- Blade said...
I agree with you that the runner has the right to choose which races are important. Granted, though, -- and I'm speculating -- when sponsored, the sponsors put an emphasis on certain races; and they dictate them as more important than other races. Is this true?
Nonetheless, your effort at UTMB is commendable and I'm disappointed that so many people are perturbed by the result. Keep your head up and the running will return to you. - September 1, 2011 at 4:17 PM
- Geoff said...
I'm sure this is true in some cases. This has not however been true in my case. to this point i have never had any sponsor request that I do a certain race or that I approach any race as a high focus race. - September 1, 2011 at 5:07 PM
- Ben Nephew said...
I really don't think that Salomon team training and organization is the key. North Face and Salomon both do UTMB training camps, and I don't think taking US men and putting them on Salomon team would be the difference between a 20 hour finish and a DNF.
US mountain runners are not professional athletes, but they earn team medals at World Championships and compete well at major European events all the time. Individual medals are rare, but it is more competitive sport than ultra mountain running. Many of these athletes are self coached, as are many of the top track athletes. Does anyone think that a coach approved of Kilian (and a few other UTMB runners, I think?) running up Mont Blanc 6 days before the race??
I'm not sure how US runners have less focus than European runners. We all know that if Kilian had DNF'd everyone would have said he raced too much. What exactly is meant by more focus?
In terms of talent, if we are talking about the runners at the very front, there is not much to support the claim that Americans have as much talent. In general, we only have a few races to look at, and the Europeans have done very well.
This is where the Salomon team comes in. They are well funded, and ultra trail running is much more popular in Europe than in the US. This combination may lead to faster runners going into ultra trail running in Europe than in the US. Try to find a US runner that will say he has more talent than Kilian. If Kilian has more talent, then maybe some of the guys running with him have similar talent levels. At races like UTMB specifically, you can't get expect to run up front without an extraordinary climbing ability. Sure, you can go 40-50 miles with guys that can climb better than you, but if they are at 75% or their max, and you are at 85%, you won't be with them the entire race.
The top US mountain runners don't often go into ultra running, but it seems that many of the Europeans are quite good at shorter mountain races. It will be interesting to see how Ricky Gates does if he continues running ultras.
Are the descents much worse at UTMB than in most of the western US ultras? As far as I could tell from the profile, the downhills at Hardrock are 10-13%. I've done some running out west and in the French Alps, and the descents in the Alps were much steeper on average. - September 1, 2011 at 6:07 PM
- Geoff said...
I think there are some assumptions being made here. when did i say I didn't care much about UTMB? UTMB was my main focus ever since last year's race got cancelled. not sure what i said that you interpreted as me saying I didn't care much about it. sorry if i wasn't clear in something i said.
and the hardrock thing is an old conversation, but if you go back and read what I wrote i think you might be surprised. i never meant to suggest that hardrock should let elites in, i even gave them credit for being firm and not caving to requests to do so. my point of that post was that i think it's unfortunate that we don't currently have a mountain 100 miler that is super bad ass like hardrock and has the space to allow all top level runners to run (i.e. i think it's a bummer that we don't have a UTMB like race and the Hardrock lottery highlights this bummer each year). I wasn't very clear in the original post what I was meaning to say, but if you read my comments in the bottom of that post I think I made it quite clear that i wasn't saying that hardrock should change.
in terms of your first paragraph you're dead on. can't believe i actually get wrapped up in this sh!t sometimes.
see you in AK! - September 1, 2011 at 6:17 PM
- UltraJegi said...
thanks for the clarification. I totally misread some of your statements ... another reason why you always gotta take blog comments (and posts) with a rock of salt ;) Sorry. But you know, if one can maintain a sense of humor it's actually entertaining!
As for UTMB next year ... I put my vote in and suggest you run Tor Des Geants instead!! :) Much much harder (well its also 200 m, 24km vertical up), very beautiful, brilliant organization and more intimate (despite 500 runners). I'd like to see you win that one (if that distance is your thing). Current CR is 80 hours ... you can do better.
Definitely see you in AK. I have no idea how I'm gonna effectively train for that ... getting to the beach will be arduous and almost impossible during the week, plus boring as hell around here ... My achilles hurt just thinking about that race! Scary! Fun :) Btw, I finally got one of those: http://bit.ly/qtcvWh pretty small, ITI legal and reasonably priced (there's no subscription fee either).
Lastly are you ever gonna set up that crazy race in AK? That sounds like a really great idea :)
Beat - September 1, 2011 at 6:49 PM
- Chris said...
One thing I think we in the ultra community forget about sometimes is ultras (especially U.S. runners) are not a high stakes big $$$ or nation pride on the line activity. It's not the world cup, it's not Franz Klammer at Innsbruck, its not the Australian aborigine female 400m in Sydney who had to win gold otherwise her nation and her people would have been devastated. Those athletes had to peak for those events because so much was at stake. U.S. ultrarunning is currently a very low stakes sport (heck triathletes have a lot more riding on the outcome of their races) and 99.95% of the American population could care less whether U.S. runners DNF at UTMB or not. Our biggest race is WS and the Auburn stands are not exactly packed when the winners come through. Aside from personal pride, U.S. ultrarunners had very little riding on how they performed at UTMB. It wasn't like Geoff was going to get showered with hundreds of thousands of dollars if he won. So if Geoff wants to run 15 mom and pop 100s a year and risk burn out he should go for it. As I said right now this is a low stakes sport and we need to keep that in mind before we start criticizing people for not properly peaking for one or two races per year.
- September 1, 2011 at 7:24 PM
- Bam said...
we French people want you back next year in the Chamonix Valley; American runners deserve a lot more than what they got this year, I swear there won't be anymore rerouting crap, perfect weather and all.
Now to Cloud, "every cloud has its silver lining", come on dude, stop showing us the dark side of your moon.
A l'année prochaine à Cham'!
Bam - September 1, 2011 at 10:16 PM
- Michael Cipriano said...
Geoff, I enjoy reading about your racing and training, positive and negative, the information/inspiration is much appreciated.
Any changes to your training for the Iditasport run? Not many guys are blogging about looooong distance winter running. - September 2, 2011 at 8:39 AM
- Tatiana said...
Sorry to hear you did not finish, Geoff. I had a nice run (even considering the storm) although I did not push it and had a shorter route... Just enjoyed the beautifull scenary and the experience.
Hope to hear that you rest well
and get back to the adventures.
Tatiana (I met you at Vallee Blanche breakfast) - September 2, 2011 at 9:31 AM
- James Hunter said...
|Lastly are you ever gonna set up |that crazy race in AK? That sounds |like a really great idea :)
The Tongass 100!
That would be sweet! - September 2, 2011 at 10:15 AM
- jimmy said...
If I was an amazing ultrarunner and could do even half of what you can do, I would probably try to run every race I could. Id be burned out all the time. Setting aside all the competition and everything, I just think its really fun to race and be part of that atmosphere. People get to wrapped up in thinking they know whats best for you. Your race reports have always been awesome to read when Im killing time at work! Sorry about the bad luck at UTMB, but it'll just be that much better once you finally crush it next year!
- September 2, 2011 at 10:32 AM
- Speedgoat Karl said...
I would be embarassed if Cloud wer my coach......
- September 2, 2011 at 11:42 AM
- Barry Bliss said...
Anybody that lives/runs fully gets burned out on a regular basis.
It's not outside of the whole--it's part of it--as Goeff obviously understands. - September 2, 2011 at 5:06 PM
- brendaontheRun said...
Come race day, we all have a tiny window to perform in. Sometimes our bodies work well, and other times they don't. You're an amazing athlete regardless of the result of this year's UTMB or WS ... you'll get your mojo back, don't worry! I think all ultra runners go through this at some point, regardless of where we are in the race pack. Isn't that all part of the journey?!!! What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger!
- September 2, 2011 at 7:55 PM
- Hone said...
I think everyone should seriously spend a lot more time running instead of wasting time dissecting your approach to racing. Just keep having fun.
Also I think it is dope you are heading back to ITI. It is not a glamorous race but I know you will feel pretty good after finishing that one. - September 2, 2011 at 8:09 PM
- Kiwirose said...
Geoff, I've been following your blog for over a year now but this is the first time I've commented.
I was on the course at Refuge de la Croix du Bonhomme 44km into the race. I was walking the Mont Blanc trail at the time and organised my walk to co-inside with the Utmb in the hope that I would get to see you guys run past. So when I got up at 4am to see the leaders come through and when calling out your name and giving you a cheer as you come past it really meant a lot to me that you waved out in response. As you say in your report you were already struggling at this stage so to still take the time and energy to recognise your supporters tells me alot about you and your attitude to running.
Ultrarunning I believe is about challenging your mind and body against the mountains and enjoying the scenery, friendships and adventures along the way. To me you still show this ultrarunning spirit and I hope that it continues. When you start having coaches, fixed training plans and training to peak for only a couple of races a year you are losing what it means to be a ultrarunner and being in the mountains.
Thanks for the inspiration. - September 3, 2011 at 2:08 AM
- Unknown said...
Well, first of all kudos to everyone who made the attempt. Sometimes the runner wins, sometimes the distance comes out on top. Simple, really.
Regarding those who post (positive or otherwise) today's technology gives everyone the ability register an opinion. The key point I'd like to offer is that if you post something that you would never say to the blogger's face, don't post it at all.
Geoff, thanks for inspiring us all and also with your willingness to share both the good and the bad in an open and honest manner. - September 3, 2011 at 5:37 AM
- Wyatt Hornsby said...
Geoff: Wishing you all the best!
Regarding your thoughts that it's too bad we don't have a super bad-ass race that lets in all the elites (versus Hardrock, which is super bad-ass but is very limited in its numbers), Leadville may not be super hardcore but it's not restrictive like Hardrock, WS100, etc. Leadville can accommodate updards of 800 runners and has two nice climbs (Hope both ways) along with some sweet elevation the whole way. Again, it's not Hardrock, but it's the one race I can think of that anyone can get into so long as they register before the event closes out.
Regarding Cloud, I think he/she makes some decent points but they undermine any logic they may have with their obnoxious tone. I really think the best policy with this individual is to ignore them...or delete their comments.
Wyatt - September 3, 2011 at 12:16 PM
- Speedgoat Karl said...
Wyatt, the problem with Leadvillie is with all the money they take in, there is no prize money. The real goal with a "high profile" race is prize money,not just getting in. Bighorn would also be good. It really depends on the RD,not necessariyly permits. Most races have permits that exceed the actual number who start. It wouldn't be hard to let in say 10 runners the last week. Anyway, off subject, sorry.
- September 4, 2011 at 4:27 AM
- Nemo Camino said...
I'd just like to say how much it's interesting you share you're ultrarunner experience with us, when you are number one and even when it's hard, when you dnf.
Everybody who runs and try to reach a goal knows instant of great pleasure and moment of terrible disappointment : when you're tired, when your body hurts and says no, when you're injured.
We all try to find our own way (and it's a long and hard way) to have great run and great race.
For me you are like a guide and I take some inspiration and motivation for my train. Great respect for you and for what you do.
I hope you will be back to Chamonix, shave or not :-), next year.
Take care - September 4, 2011 at 6:13 AM
- Lars said...
First of all: from an external perspective I've to say it is so ridiculous what is going on here. Geoff is one of the most amazing and greatest ultra-runner in the world. Some of the guys here attack him in the rudest tone. Unbelievable. And what for? Because he does not act the way, some of you want him to? He has to justify himself for doing what he likes most? For racing when and where he likes??? Are you crazy? If you like to have one or two peaks a year, I think, that is okay to all of us. But, if there are guys that go out to compete 4, 5 or 6 major races a year, than let them do! Support them. That's the spirit of ultra-running. That gives inspiration to me and many other people.
Geoff, I hope you'll be back soon. I wish you a speedy recovery, especially for your mind. - September 5, 2011 at 3:15 AM
- Michelle said...
Hey! I have a suggestion for what you can do for the next several weeks/months...... I will pay you to come be our chef! This way, you can cook, which you love, Haley and I can eat well, which we love. And Mom would be super happy, which we will all love. ;)
- September 5, 2011 at 3:32 AM
- phil said...
To me you are an inspiration...end of story.
- September 5, 2011 at 4:35 AM
- momroes said...
Michelle - that sounds like a super plan to me - i was planning on seeing him in Virginia in Sept. and now that won't be happening.
Geoff - I don't care what others say you are #1 with us and you always will be - you are a fantastic person and that is all that really matters. We love you!!! - September 5, 2011 at 5:57 AM
- Cloud said...
"my point of that post was that i think it's unfortunate that we don't currently have a mountain 100 miler that is super bad ass like hardrock and has the space to allow all top level runners to run (i.e. i think it's a bummer that we don't have a UTMB like race and the Hardrock lottery highlights this bummer each year."
Geoff, excuse me but youve had two big races this year, full of elites, and you DNFd in both of them. Yes, you DNFd at Western States and UTMB. So don't be bitching 'bout the lack of a championship race when you failed to finish in the two races on your calendar that had you pitted against some of the top talent in the entire sport!
Sorry dude but you are dead fucking wrong about peaking. You can have more than a few really good races year-round but you can only truly peak about 2 times a year. If you disagree with me, you're also disagreeing with leading minds in the sport like Dr. Jack Daniels. Sorry but its a fucking fact that you can peak only 2 times a year and in rare cases three times.
One of the big problems in elite ultrarunning in the US is that our best race WAY to fucking much. Yes, Kilian races a lot but he's also only in his early 20s and he doesn't run much at all in the winter. You and others, such as Nick Clark race year-round and then wonder where the gas is late in the summer when you've exchausted yourself.
When the history of Geoff Roes is written, will it be that you had a great 3-year run and then flamed out or will it be that you were great for a long time? Oh, and sorry but you haven't had one of the all time best 3 year runs unless the list goes about 20 deep. You need to study up on the sport and read baout some of the greats. If you think yor even in the same league as Yiannis Kouros then yer dreaming. - September 6, 2011 at 11:40 AM
- Jeff said...
Cloud, go back to the zoo and stop bothering people.
- September 6, 2011 at 12:49 PM
- Geoff said...
you know, if you ever are feeling bold you outta consider responding to what i've actually said rather than to what you want me to be saying so as to give yourself tangential points in which to make it known how right you are about everything. It would certainly give you a bit more credibility than your usual method of making things up to argue against... then again it probably wouldn't give so many folks so many good laughs. - September 6, 2011 at 1:13 PM
- Brett said...
To The Board:
I had the unfortunate luck of stumbling upon one of Cloud's more mild comments recently with regards to over-racing. I didn't necessarily agree with him, but defended his idea as something worth at least debating.
After reading several more comments from him, each one more vile and disrespectful than the next, I'd like to apologize for my earlier defense. An oral diarrhea spewing ogre need not be given any credence, even if he postulates something undeniable, like 2 + 2 = 4. - September 6, 2011 at 4:23 PM
- momroes said...
The language that some people use on here is really rotten. I wish that there was a way to not publish comments with such filthy language. It is not really impressive.
- September 6, 2011 at 4:56 PM
- Unknown said...
I have a pretty good idea what my dad would say re: Cloud.
"Never argue with an idiot. They only drag you down to their level then beat you to death with experience."
My father is a wise man. - September 6, 2011 at 5:13 PM
- Eric B said...
lol, Cloud your now a leading mind in sports. What an idiot. Please list your races you have run and those athletes you say you coach. My hunch you sit in basement munching on potato chips, sipping tab cola looking at the internet.
- September 6, 2011 at 5:30 PM
- pasi.koskinen said...
Geoff, I´m very sorry for You when I´m reading some of these comments.
Target-oriented running is not everything. Racing is just a small part of running if you are real ultrarunner. And You are!
Just keep going. The God of trails is Quiet but demanding. - September 7, 2011 at 4:27 AM
- Wyatt Hornsby said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- September 7, 2011 at 8:40 AM
- tramontana said...
Cloud is right in everything he is saying about training and racing. He is very arrogant but he is right. BTW his name is Tim.
- September 7, 2011 at 9:44 AM
- nikolailash said...
Perhaps it's time we left Clown alone with his toys and mischief. He hasn't made especially constructive comments. I think pasi.koskinen has it right that racing is only a small part of ultra running. We should all follow our own lights. Geoff, you are following yours wisely and enjoyably. I'm inspired by your thoughts and example.
- September 7, 2011 at 10:06 AM
- Unknown said...
I know more than everyone else. I've trained hundreds of great athletes. Technically they didn't know it was me training them, but that's just how good I am. When they win, it's because they are following my advice exactly, although they might not consciously realize it. Again, that's how good I am. When they lose, it's because they didn't listen to me, so they deserved to lose. That proves they were stupid. Even though I am right about everything, know everything, and train every great athlete, I'm going to stay anonymous because my whole system only works if you don't know it's me training you. So, next time any of you do well, just know it's because of me and how crazy awesome I am. Your success is actually my success, so don't let it go to your head. Nobody can win anything without me. If you don't do well, and I find out about it, I'm going to call you out for how stupid you are and let everyone know it's because you were not training the way I told you to. Even if you got sick, or in a car accident, that would just prove you were training wrong. Also, unlike any success, your failure is totally your fault.
- September 7, 2011 at 11:14 AM
- Unknown said...
Hold on, I was reading clouds posts and thought this was where anonymous people could talk openly about there delusions of superiority, but maybe I should be posting on his blog? Cloud, I've googled megalomania, narcissistic personality order, etc., and I can't find you? Where is your blog?
- September 7, 2011 at 11:26 AM
- Brian said...
Cloud is right in many ways, it's just that he is painting with a very broad brush and his delivery sucks. Whether it pertains to Geoff and his plan who the f knows. Not speaking at all for Geoff or trying to put words in anyone's mouth. Obviously, Geoff is an exception athlete. Everyone is different but Americans whether it be cycling, running, triathlon, whatever, tend to make their easy days to hard and they hard days to easy. We tend to train in a gray area, which leads to burn out. Again, not judging Geoff at all as he has and will have plenty more great races, I am also from North Syracuse originally and would never disrepect a Hastings/ Central Square native!!
Best of luck! - September 7, 2011 at 12:56 PM
- LK said...
People will criticize as part of human nature, but unless they've walked a mile in your shoes, who cares. Sure, we all wanted the U.S. runners to go Chamonix and dominate, especially you, but, maybe, some of that desire was an underlying zest in national pride and believing that we are the best. We want our best to beat "their" best. And, when that didn't happen, people were disappointed. Regardless, those are expectations for which you're not responsible in making come to fruition for others. This isn't life or death. It's running.
All the best this Fall. Can't imagine getting enjoy time outdoors in the golden Aspens and snow-dusted mountains whenever you want. Enjoy! - September 7, 2011 at 2:29 PM
- Alfonso Lopez said...
Geoff, a long time you're won and beat the records of racing..and have demonstrated exemplary humility..you have very good karma that will returns only good things..you'll find a way to return to winnings ways , you still very young..just look at the great year of David MCAKEY also a great champion..
Geoff you are an example for everyone, good luck¡¡
I hope to see you in the UROC - September 7, 2011 at 11:26 PM
- Brian said...
One thing I don't understand here, is why many or most seem to think that you need to be an elite ultra runner or have been to coach ultra runners. I don't get that.
- September 8, 2011 at 3:41 AM
- Michelle said...
Blogs need "like"/"dislike" buttons. I keep reaching for it.
- September 8, 2011 at 4:17 AM
- joerunner said...
Sorry about your dnf. I wish you well and good luck. Beyond that I have my own running to think about.
- September 8, 2011 at 6:59 AM
- Rod Bien said...
Truly, Cloud, I get great pleasure at your fire starting, idiotic comments. There is no way you are a coach and I doubt that you run let alone have finished WS or Hardrock. I'm guessing your exercise is running downstairs to your mom's basement and microwaving a few "Hot Pockets" in between comments. Keep it up.
- September 8, 2011 at 8:47 PM
- Cloud said...
The people on here who are calling me stupid, such as Rod Bien are themselves quite dumb. Tell me one thing I've said that's not correct? You won't find many coaches who will say an athlete can peak all year. You won't find many coaches who'll say you race hard in every race. Theer is such a thing and practe racing, tune up racing and peak performance racing (the latter being something you do really 2 times a year). You won't find any coach who will say rest isn't a good thing and it's OK to run hard all fuckingt year like Roes and other "elites" do. The people on here who are saying I'm an idiot--to you I say your all just a bunch of pack mob jackasses who are to busy kissing Roes ass to see that he's all wrong in what he's done in the past year and that's why he's on his ass now. Yah he had a nice run for a few years there but its all caught up to him now, ain't it?
- September 9, 2011 at 10:57 AM
- tim white said...
YAWN..... Not sure why the internet troll is riling so many people up...??? Just a simple moron who likes to keeeeep repeating the same things. Quite boring!
- September 9, 2011 at 11:11 AM
- nikolailash said...
Tweety Bird sings yet another sweet song!
- September 9, 2011 at 5:32 PM
- Burt said...
@ cloud:
Still anonymous. Still gutless.
At least you are consistent.
Burt Hoovis - September 9, 2011 at 7:42 PM
- Rod Bien said...
Cloud, I can tell you three things that you have said that aren't correct or true.
1. That you've run Western States.
2. That you've run Hardrock.
3. That you're a running coach.
I'll go back to being "dumb" and running myself into the ground. - September 11, 2011 at 9:44 PM
- irun4pain said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- September 12, 2011 at 9:19 AM
- Unknown said...
'Cloud' may be obnoxious, callous, and comic-relief, but don't start throwing names around: "A quick google search brings up Carmichael Training Systems and Jason Koop." Whether Jason Koop is 'Cloud' or not, mis-identification can ruin a persons career. I've never met Jason Koop, or paid for any type of coaching, but for @irun4pain to not trust in Cloud's claims regarding Geoff, but to trust Cloud's claims regarding his experience is how mistakes are made with grave consequences. And fair weather to fit 'irun4pain's search. You can find anything you want if you search and skew evidence. Cloud is the only person that should be revealing his identity, not some else playing detective. www.uphillrunning.com
Great race, man. Good luck with the recovery and keep up the great blog posts. - September 12, 2011 at 10:36 AM
- eric said...
i like this quote from Geoff (last year, running times):
"When Mont-Blanc was called off, somebody commented that at least I didn't have my record blemished," he says. "I'd rather run and lose than not run at all."
just running itself is winning. - September 13, 2011 at 10:11 AM


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subset: commoncrawl


text:
August 22, 2013
Y-chromosome haplogroup Q and Native Americans
The First Peopling of South America: New Evidence from Y-Chromosome Haplogroup Q
Vincenza Battaglia et al.
Recent progress in the phylogenetic resolution of the Y-chromosome phylogeny permits the male demographic dynamics and migratory events that occurred in Central and Southern America after the initial human spread into the Americas to be investigated at the regional level. To delve further into this issue, we examined more than 400 Native American Y chromosomes (collected in the region ranging from Mexico to South America) belonging to haplogroup Q – virtually the only branch of the Y phylogeny observed in modern-day Amerindians of Central and South America – together with 27 from Mongolia and Kamchatka. Two main founding lineages, Q1a3a1a-M3 and Q1a3a1-L54(xM3), were detected along with novel sub-clades of younger age and more restricted geographic distributions. The first was also observed in Far East Asia while no Q1a3a1-L54(xM3) Y chromosome was found in Asia except the southern Siberian-specific sub-clade Q1a3a1c-L330. Our data not only confirm a southern Siberian origin of ancestral populations that gave rise to Paleo-Indians and the differentiation of both Native American Q founding lineages in Beringia, but support their concomitant arrival in Mesoamerica, where Mexico acted as recipient for the first wave of migration, followed by a rapid southward migration, along the Pacific coast, into the Andean region. Although Q1a3a1a-M3 and Q1a3a1-L54(xM3) display overlapping general distributions, they show different patterns of evolution in the Mexican plateau and the Andean area, which can be explained by local differentiations due to demographic events triggered by the introduction of agriculture and associated with the flourishing of the Great Empires.
19 comments:
- Unknown said...
Whereas I have no problem with Siberia as a source, it is what I assumed ultimately. This conclusion is seriously NOT supported by the data. IMO.
Q1b is the closest to the root in this data set, and it is found deep down in Panama/Andes but not in the Mongolian/Siberian samples. This is a widespread group. Assuming no recent contamination this suggests that Q1b folk could have arrived in the Americas any time after the Q1a/Q1b split, with the location so far south suggesting earlier rather than later. This is the stickiest point.
Q1a3a is exclusively Northern Altai populations(figure 3). This seems to mean the Koriak somehow.
Q1a3a1 is exclusively American. The core is Mexico/Andes. Looks like a migration from the "Northern Altai" Koriak.
I can buy the Koriak as proxies for Beringia (location in far, far eastern Russia) or the Gravettian (reindeer folk). Yes it is Siberia, barely, but Northern Altai?
Q1a3a1c is exclusively Mongolian/Southern Altai. Looks a back migration from the Americas.
Q1a3a1a looks fairly evenly distributed across the Americas (figure 3). You have to go deeper into the phylogeny to get regional information. Q1a31a1a4 and a5 are exclusively Andean for example.
- Friday, August 23, 2013 4:38:00 am
- Fanty said...
"Yes it is Siberia, barely, but Northern Altai?"
Northern Altai is technically in "Sibiria", as "Sibiria" is the whole Asian part of Russia. In other words: Almost all of Russia, except for that small European part west of the Urals is "Sibiria". - Saturday, August 24, 2013 8:14:00 am
- Aaron said...
@Annie Mouse
I agree with you that no where in this paper do they provide evidence that Haplogroup Q originated in Siberia. I wonder why they try to make this claim if the data is not there to support it. - Monday, August 26, 2013 8:10:00 pm
- mregdna said...
The Q1b have a unusual DYS392=16.
But this is also found among some jewish Q1B-L245.
So I suggest rather a jewish origin for the rare amerindian Q1B maybe related with the inquisition that reached South America after Portugal.
- Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:05:00 pm
- Clay said...
This seems like a very important paper to me. I am surprised at the few comments here. Annie, what do you think about the idea of Mexico as a staging area for the ultimate expansion of the Amerind population over the Americas? Has that hypothesis ever been advanced before?
- Wednesday, August 28, 2013 6:47:00 am
- Unknown said...
Not seen the idea of a central staging area before. I was expecting expansion from North American staging areas down to the south.
But I suppose over a prolonged period of near isolation expansion out of the main civilizations (Inca/Maya) makes sense. - Thursday, August 29, 2013 12:58:00 am
- Unknown said...
Hmm looked at this site:
And there was only 1 DYS392 16
Where do you get the Jewish reference?
The q1b in this study represents 2 different lineages, both with DYS392 16, but multiple other differences. - Thursday, August 29, 2013 1:50:00 am
- terryt said...
"Q1b is the closest to the root in this data set, and it is found deep down in Panama/Andes but not in the Mongolian/Siberian samples"
I notice the paper doesn't use the current ISOGG nomenclature. Q1b-M378 is now Q1b1, basically a European, South Asian and West Asian group. So mregdna is probably correct with 'So I suggest rather a jewish origin for the rare amerindian Q1B maybe related with the inquisition that reached South America after Portugal'.
"Two main founding lineages, Q1a3a1a-M3 and Q1a3a1-L54(xM3), were detected"
Current nomenclature has these as Q1a2a1a1 and Q1a2a1 respectively.
"I agree with you that no where in this paper do they provide evidence that Haplogroup Q originated in Siberia."
Even the extract Dienekes published says, 'The first was also observed in Far East Asia while no Q1a3a1-L54(xM3) Y chromosome was found in Asia except the southern Siberian-specific sub-clade Q1a3a1c-L330'. Q-L330 is now called Q1a2a1c and is basically a Ket/Selkup haplogroup. That fits the comment regarding a South Siberian origin. But even that doesn't actually cover Q's 'origin'. Q-M242(xQ1a2a) is more notably a West Eurasian haplogroup, so probably originated somewhere on the steppe west of the Hindu Kush/Altai line. Just the derived Q1a1a1-M120and Q1a2a-L53 are found east of that line and even within the last haplogroup Q1a2b-L940 is primarily Scandinavian and Q1a2c-M323 seems primarily Jewish. - Thursday, August 29, 2013 5:39:00 am
- Unknown said...
The paper quotes 33 STRs with 10 being different for the two Q1b lineages (both are DYS492=16).
I got curious so I (painfully) checked out the Q1b STRs in YHRD. I entered 9 core STRs from these two lineages and got only one match (Columbia, similar to lineage 1 in the paper).
There are 5 additional lineages that differ at DYS439 (8 of the core STRs). 4 South Americans, 1 Lianing,China and 1 Lenkoran, Azerbaijan.
There are 12 additional lineages that differ at DYS492 (8 of the core STRs). 10 South Americans, 1 Hispanic North American, 1 Punjabi and 1 Cukurova, Turkey.
IMO this Q1b is not Western European, unlikely to be Jewish and looks very old in South America (tonnes of closely related lineages).
- Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:57:00 am
- mregdna said...
Maybe I am wrong but I never heard of so many Q1b in south America.
In the database like FTDNA or Genebase etc, the only south America Q1bs I found are close to sephardic jews. And some match with morocco jews.
Some Q1a haplotypes are not so far from Q1bs, are you sure that those Q you found are not particular Q1a3?
If not, it will be an intriguing case because Q1b has not yet been found in Siberia.
- Thursday, August 29, 2013 10:04:00 pm
- Kristiina said...
I went to see the FamilyTree page Annie mentioned and found several people with DYS392 16:
1. Asmatullah Khan, b. 1810, Afghanistan
2. Tal Abitbol, Morocco
3. Suzman, Lithuania
4. Saadia, Iraq
5. Helman Michelson, Suvianiskis, Lithuania
6. Moshe Elfasi. b. 1860, Morocco
Q1b in Native Americans may not be prehistoric, but it does not look native Spanish or Portugese either. Am I right that you suggest that the ancestor of this lineage was a jew living in Iberia taking refuge in America when in 1492 and 1501 Jews and Muslims were forced to convert or leave.
Is someone able to tell us if the STR results of these Native American males match the Moroccan STR results or are at least closer to them compared to other STR results?
- Thursday, August 29, 2013 10:25:00 pm
- Unknown said...
Yep you are right. I had a closer look later. But I did not dare send in another back to back correcting post. Dienekes would have had coniptions.
I did spend time looking at the exact sequence and the Tal Abitbol Morocco sequence is the most similar to the South American lineage but still differed by a couple of STRs.
Turns out a bunch of Moroccan Sephardi migrated out to the Amazon to farm rubber.
But the diversity in South America still looks deeper than anything that appears to exist anywhere else. So it is not clear to me which way the genetics travelled.
Perhaps this is a database imbalance. But Jewish folk are the most heavily tested ethnic group. I would expect South Americans to be less tested.
Did a very large number of Morrocans travel to South America giving all this diversity?
Or did a few travel back to Morocco carrying SA haplotypes giving rise the close Moroccan sequence?
Could all of this diversity (lineage 1 and 2 differ by 10 out of 33 STRs) have really arisen since Pizarro arrived in the 1400s? And there was even more SA variation in the database. - Friday, August 30, 2013 1:20:00 am
- Unknown said...
"Some Q1a haplotypes are not so far from Q1bs, are you sure that those Q you found are not particular Q1a3?"
www.yhrd.com is an STR haplotype database. But it seems unlikely that such long strings of such similar STRs would be a different haplogroup.
Its free but now has a limit of 20 searchs a day. 2 without registering. I don't think it works well with explorer, I used Firefox. - Friday, August 30, 2013 1:59:00 am
- Kristiina said...
The recent study from Jilin University confirmed the existence of Q1a, Q1b and Q in Xinjiang 2000 ybp. Instead, c. 500 years earlier in Pengyang only East-Asian M120 was found.
Heigouliang, Xinjiang, 2000 YBP, 6 Q1a*, 4 Q1b, 2 Q
Pengyang, Ningxia, 2500 YBP, all Q1a1-M120
It would be interesting to know which subtypes the Heigouliang haplotypes are and how they are related to Native American and Siberian subtypes. I think that it is also interesting that Q1a and Q1b are found together as if they belonged to the same tribe. This is something unexpected if we postulate that Q1a arrived earlier from Central Asia through Altai and Q1b later on from Afghanistan/Pakistan.
The study is commented at least on Eurogenes Blog at http://eurogenes.blogspot.fi/2013/01/lots-of-ancient-y-dna-from-china.html
- Friday, August 30, 2013 11:46:00 am
- DocG said...
Not precisely on topic, but I'd like to call attention to a remarkable early paper dealing with classical blood type evidence pertaining to the population genetics of S. America, specifically the "Diego gene," as analyzed by Layrisse and Wilbert back in 1961: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/134/3485/1077
The authors "suggest that Diego-negative populations were the first to arrive and to extend throughout South America, while the Diego-positive tribes came later."
Dienekes, I'm wondering whether you are aware of this very early research and if you know of any followup. The paper isn't cited at all in Cavalli-Sforza's History and Geography, and I wonder whether anyone has ever looked more closely at this evidence. - Sunday, September 01, 2013 11:23:00 pm
- Donald Albury said...
Wikipedia has an article on the Diego antigen system.
- Monday, September 02, 2013 4:28:00 am
- Cuah123 said...
Amazing that "they must be Jewish" is the default ethnic mapping that occurs even amongst Native Meso American studies.
In Latin speaking countries being "indigenous" was seen as a lower caste. Being anything other than Native would be a blessing. I truly believe that alot of those Q "Sephardics" are actually Native Americans whose families have tried to erase their indigenous heritage or have forgotten their heritage so they go with what they know- Bible Education.
Has it not occurred to anyone that the hegemonic nature of the "they must be Jewish" across ethnicities that might seem to be arcana to popular knowledge doesn't serve either community properly.
It is so incredibly unlikely that a roaming religious group fill in good with any Meso American indigenous group, it goes against all that is known about both groups. What did these roaming groups also take up human sacrafice, cannibilism a - Monday, September 02, 2013 7:11:00 am
- terryt said...
I see that ISOGG has recently updated their Q phylogeny. THey have not added the newly discovered Q-M557, Q-PV2, Q-PV3 and Q-PV4 to their chart though. But interestingly I notice they place Q-NWT01 as basal to Q-M120 (Q1a1a and Q1a1a1 respectively)rather than being on separate lines. And ISOGG still has Q-M120 and Q-M25 as a single branch within Q1a2-M346 rather than separating them as this paper does.
"Amazing that 'they must be Jewish' is the default ethnic mapping that occurs even amongst Native Meso American studies".
Yes. Even the first Q1a2c-M323 (called Q1a3b in this paper) was found in 'Yemenite Jews'. Of course this doesn't mean the haplogroup was 'jewish' or even originally from anywhere outside Yemen.
"Maybe I am wrong but I never heard of so many Q1b in south America"
That is the real suprise of the paper. If correct it may show that Q had spread from the Iranian Plateau to Beringia very soon after it first coalesced. - Thursday, September 05, 2013 6:14:00 am
- AKO said...
Great discussion guys. I really appreciate as my direct paternal line is probable Q1b. My brother tested at the 12 marker level so far and his close matches are the Q1b haplotype. In YHRD database he has four exact matches and they are from Slovakia, Kuwait, and the last two are from Brazil. I do become concerned that this branch of haplogroup Q is sometimes being pushed for an agenda. I wish those two Q1bs were not dismissed so easily in the study. The databases are top heavy with people of Jewish heritage testing. There is so much to learn out there.
The marker of 392 showing 16 instead of the usual 15 is rare, and should be investigated more thoroughly. I have also been told that the Jewish cluster is on marker 395S1. So it would be interesting to see what these samples had shown there. My other issue is that not enough have tested the SNP 245 to show positive or negative for sure. I am guilty here too, but as soon as funds permit will be testing the SNP and more STRs. - Saturday, September 28, 2013 6:33:00 pm


text:
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