text:
Talk:Western Rite
- 1 New Changes
- 2 Splitting up article
- 3 Lack of liturgical continuity
- 4 Miscategorization of links
- 5 Blogs??
- 6 Some Corrections re France
- 7 Reworking
- 8 Language about the Church of France
- 9 Article protection
- 10 Reverts to inaccuracies about ROCOR, Czechs, Poles
- 11 Sarum Usages
- 12 Liturgy
- 13 Congregations
- 14 Images under "Congregations"
- 15 Images under "Congregations" 2
New Changes
Folks, with the new receptions in ROCOR please understand that the party line vs. facts thing has to stop. Some new FACTS.
1) St Hilarion press is not named after Archbishop Hilarion so there is no "different Archbishop Hilarion". 2) Metropolitan Hilarion (formerly Archbishop of both Sydney and New York) are all the same guy. 3) He blessed Fr Aidan to use the same text as Milan's Western Archdiocese, largely Fr Aidan's own work. 4) He blessed Fr David (Pierce, formerly Father Cuthbert) to continue as he was, and he was using Milan's Eastern Archdiocese texts. 5) That makes the "majority" ROCOR texts, in fact, Milan Synod usages. If you can get over jurisdictional bickering and focus on what is liturgically accurate, folks, a lot of pain will be avoided in this transition.
Thank you.--JosephSuaiden 06:10, October 1, 2008 (UTC)
- Do you happen to have citations for the ROCOR receptions? — by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 06:31, October 1, 2008 (UTC)
Physically? No, I just have public confirmations of them online.
Hieromonk Aidan was received as a hieromonk last week. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxWest/message/18669 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13045
Hieromonk David (formerly Fr Cuthbert, which makes no sense, given David was his birthname) was confirmed by Fr Steven Ritter. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/13121
I was not pleased with either of these confimations from my perspective, of course, but they did happen. Both were received in by chierothesia. --JosephSuaiden 06:40, October 1, 2008 (UTC)
- The Archbishop Hilarion of Texas mentioned on the title page of the Sarum Missal published by St Hilarion Press is NOT the same person as Metropolitan Hilarion of New York (formerly Archbishop Hilarion of Sydney and Australia). This is a factual point. The Missal was not published with the authority of ROCOR. Authority for use in ROCOR, if granted, was very much later than original publication of the missal. Chrisg 09:41, October 1, 2008 (UTC)
- Methinks the issue here is of some ambiguous wording: "In 2008, a former hieromonk of the Milan Synod, Father Aidan (Keller), was blessed to use his own translations of the pre-schism Sarum rite, found in the Old Sarum Rite Missal, by Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral) of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia."
- This could be read in (at least) two ways: 1. +Hilarion did the blessing. 2. +Hilarion wrote the missal. I think Joseph is reading it as #1, while Chris is reading it as #2. Maybe y'all will want to work out some wording that's less ambiguous. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 19:29, October 1, 2008 (UTC)
Splitting up article
The article is getting huge, and y'all's good suggestions and plans would seem to make it even bigger. Perhaps it should be transitioned into a general article with multiple sections, then each section having a "Main article: Foo" included at the top where Foo becomes the more detailed article on that subject. --Rdr. Andrew 12:55, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT)
Lack of liturgical continuity
Another thing this brings to mind is the note in the article on Daniel (Alexandrow) of Erie : "Also, simply doing his own extensive research on ancient rites came in useful during the elevation of Metropolitan Philaret in 1964. This was the first time the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia had elected a successor who was not a Metropolitan in episcopal rank, and inasmuch as the remainder bishops were of lesser rank themselves, many were unsure of the elevation in such a situation. However, thanks to the research of Bishop Daniel, who was yet a reader, the Synod of Bishops was able to essentially replicate the office of elevation of a Metropolitan as performed in 15th century Russia." - Aristibule
- I'm also reminded of the restoration of the rite of enthroning a patriarch of Moscow that was enacted when St. Tikhon of Moscow was elected. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 08:04, November 7, 2005 (CST)
Miscategorization of links
The letter of Patriarch Sergius I to Vladimir Lossky is not a 'criticism' of the Western Rite, but rather pro-Western Rite. - Aristibule
Do we really want to include links to blogs as part of this encyclopedia? Blogs have nothing to do with NPOV, and they often stray far afield from the purported topic. One I glanced at was recommending the writings of William F. Buckley, Jr. -- nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy! --Fr Lev 08:31, March 2, 2006 (CST)
- If they're exclusively (or near-exclusively) topical, then linking them is fine. If not, then no. If the only thing that distinguishes the weblogs in question is that they're owned by WR people, then that doesn't seem enough to warrant a link. Individual articles posted there could certainly be linked if they're substantial and contribute significantly to the topic. There's no reason that the links couldn't be added to Online Orthodox Communities, though. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 08:38, March 2, 2006 (CST)
- The blogs I linked were three:
- **The Western Rite section of Fr. Matthew Thurman's blog (the section I linked) consists primarily of historical documents written by such as Fr. Alexander Turner, first Vicar-General of the Antiochian WRV -- precisely the sort of thing that should be linked to this page as a resource.
- **Western Orthodoxy is the blog to which our critic refers. Somehow he scrolled two screens down, skipped a photo and news story about the first Continuing Anglican bishop ever to convert to the WRV, and "glanced" at a sentence in the middle of a post about Western spiritual books, located above several stories concerning objections to the Western Rite and an article written by Fr. Hieromonk (Dom) James Deschene of Christminster Monastery (ROCOR, WR). Further down, he would have found patristic quotations on feast days, Byzantine practices that correlate with the Western Rite, and news about new Western Rite communities entering Oriental Orthodoxy. Our critic "glanced" only a one-sentence aside well down the blog, then hastened here to present it as the only content in the entire blog, which allegedly has "nothing whatsoever to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy!" How odd.
- **Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's Occidentalis is a source for this OrthodoxWiki webpage and is acknowledged as such. Certainly his valuable blog is on-topic.
- As you can see, all are exclusively or near-exclusively topical. As such, I've added them all back to the page under "News and Views." If the editorial team disagrees, feel free to remove them.
- All three blogs are more on-topic for this OrthodoxWiki page than the listservs. This is particularly true of "Occidentalis," which primarily discusses liturgies not currently practiced anywhere in Orthodoxy (I'm not referencing the "Old Sarum Rite" here but others besides that not authorized anywhere), acts as a clearinghouse for inaccurate anti-WRV rumors, and allows vagante Old Catholics to promote their own churches and titles.
- Too bad my blog http://orthodox-okie.blogspot.com wasn't restore as well - it also is mostly a Western Rite Orthodox blog, though more towards the ROCOR usage (which might be why it was snubbed?) - Ari 15:41, March 7, 2006 (CST)
- Ari, don't imagine slights where there are none (especially during Lent, mon frere). I didn't restore your blog, because occasionally you go 2-3 posts on something unrelated -- and I thought if a detractor was going to go crazy over one stray sentence, perhaps I'd better err on the side of caution. I added your blog to the Online Orthodox Communities. Feel free to add your blog to the Western Rite page, too. No offense meant to an outstanding blog. -- Willibrord
- That was tongue in cheek. ;) No problem, I've actually thought about separating all the Western Rite Orthodox (and other Orthodox posts) to a separate blog, separate the wheat out from the tares. That might be a more appropriate link. Ari 08:21, March 9, 2006 (CST)
My remarks have been misunderstood and mischaracterized. I didn't say that the blog in question had nothing to do with Western rite Orthodoxy -- I said that the comments about William F. Buckley have nothing to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy. (BTW, I happen to like Mr. Buckley.) And although I didn't see anything outrageous on the website, I have seen other "Orthodox" blogs that do mix in a fair amount of partisan politics, and it's a road I would rather us not go down. --Fr Lev 09:52, March 9, 2006 (CST)
- With all due respect, I believe my comments were a fair reading of your words above, and your words above were not a fair reading of my blog nor even the post in question, for the reasons I pointed out. But it seems this discussion has run its course. -- Willibrord.
- As a related issue, it is perhaps best not to be involved in the promotion or lack thereof of one's own material. Putting up a link is one thing, but if it becomes a contentious issue, it would seem best for the sake of neutrality to let others decide whether one's material is worthy of inclusion. It's an inherent conflict of interest to do otherwise. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 17:05, March 9, 2006 (CST)
Some Corrections re France
I deleted some inaccuarate information. (1) The Gallican liturgy was not a usage of the Roman rite. (2) The Gallican rite as restored by Bishop Jean Kovalevsky was almost entirely Western, drawing on various Western missals, sacramentaries, etc. Most of the borrowings from the Byzantine that form part of the ordinary today (which is a small part of the liturgy) were added c. 1960 at the direction of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. (3) Alexis van der Mensbrugghe was not a member of the French Church -- he worked with the French Church and taught at its St Denys Institute while the French Church was still a part of the Moscow Patriarchate. (4) I replaced the decription of the French Church as "in canonical limbo" with "isolation." The use of the term "canonical" here is inappropriate. A good source for understanding this common misuse of the word is Fr Alexander Schmemann's article on the situation of the Church in America. --Fr Lev 16:41, March 2, 2006 (CST)
I have substantially re-worked sections of this article in order to redress perceived (my perception) inadequacies/imbalances and to perhaps bring some sections more up to date
I deleted the section headed "criticisms" simply because I see no reason why we should be required to give space to the critics of Western Rite within Orthodoxy. No one is going to take kindly to my adding a paragraph of criticism to a section of Orthodoxwiki which details the use of Chrysostoma in the diaspora, so I see no reason why we should have a criticism section here.
I filled out some of the details of ROCOR's Western Rite activities and made other more minor adjustments.
I will be only sporadically available over the next few weeks to defend my changes - so please don't take silence for anything other than the fact that I may not have seen a comment.
Suggestion: Do we need to include the picture of the "circus". This is ammunition for the critics of Western Rite - it even causes severe criticism within the ranks of Western Riters. I see no reason for including this weapon which our detractors can and do use to disparage us.
First of all, I am not sure why the page is closed off. There are certain numbers of facts that are incorrect. The second largest grouping of Sarum-use parishes in the US is the Milan Synod, an Old Calendarist group. The growth of the Synod has been a direct result of Orthodox people who have been fed up with the Vicariate's policy. The Milan Synod's Western rite numbers are larger than that of ROCOR's. Secondly, the Sarum use in Milan is not significantly different from that of ROCOR. Even Fr Aidan Keller's work on the Sarum rite is not all that different; and that never was the official use of the New York Archdiocese anyway. -- Suaiden
- See the rest of this talk page for why this article was protected - edit-warring, basically, mainly over the l'ECOF. Of course, this is - as far as I can tell - quite unrelated to your points, so you may want to suggest the change on this page, where it can be incorporated into the article. That said, I'm going to leave it to others (currently, tiredness is probably not helping my critical judgement) as to where Milan Synod fits into OW:MCB. — by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 12:15, April 27, 2008 (UTC)
And why is the eccleasistical status of the Synod of Milan somewhat down in the artile, while the Orthodox Church of France's was allowed to be placed in the lead section?--Fr Lev 18:15, April 28, 2008 (UTC)
- Not sure exactly what is being referred to...?
- In any event, I don't see why either should be placed in the lead section - the point of OW is for those classed under MCB (i.e. the 14/15 autocephalous churches), which neither belong to. — by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 23:00, April 28, 2008 (UTC)
Language about the Church of France
The language I used is taken from the article on the Orthodox Church of France and was the result of one of the moderators, Fr John, resolving a dispute. --Fr Lev 17:31, February 13, 2008 (PST)
- Not exactly. Fr. John's exact wording said nothing about "the ancient patriarchates" but mentioned "the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches." That is broader than merely "the ancient patriachates." L'ECOF is not in communion with any local Orthodox Church, either; hence, more precise language is needed. (This is, of course, a sanitized way of noting L'ECOF is not in communion with anyone and hence not canonical.) -- User:Willibrord
Yes, EXACTLY. I pasted and clipped the sentence from the opening section of the article on the Church of France as Fr John approved it (and froze it). Your use of "canonical" is not accurate language, nor is "recognized Orthodox Churches" particularly illuminating -- recognized by whom? --Fr Lev 06:11, February 14, 2008 (PST)
- In some universally recognised Orthodox Churches, episcopacies are sold. By doing this, these churches are "uncanonical", but are still universally "recognised" churches. The term "uncanonical" is not congruent with either "generally recognised" or "universally recognised". In this context, "uncanonical" really is quite unhelpful. chrisg 2008 Feb 15 o2:51 EAST
- Fr. John's exact wording is vastly superior to yours -- which again is inexact and misleading. By mentioning only "the ancient patriarchates," you may lead the reader to believe L'ECOF is in communion with some other autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church. You are not. Surely you don't wish to mislead anyone. Hence, clarification is needed -- probably on the L'ECOF page, as well.
- "chrisg," such character assassinations, inaccuracies, and malicious generalizations will not be useful on this site. -- User:Willibrord
The exat wording approved and frozen by Fr John in the article is "The Orthodox Church of France currently functions as an independent body, and is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates." You misrepresent what this says, since is refers not only to the ancient patriarchates, but to "any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates." --Fr Lev 08:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)
Willibrord's continued attempts to edit the language adds NOTHING to the description except redundancy -- patriachates are autocephalous. --Fr Lev 09:03, February 14, 2008 (PST)
- Yet Fr. John's exact wording was more precise than your continual edits.
- If you intention is to communicate that L'ECOF is not in communion with any autocepahlous or autonomous Orthodox Church, surely you don't object to this being spelled out explicitly. There are those, like myself, who may not understand the nuance of your wording, which implies a different reality. After all, an The Orthodox Church of France is not currently recognized by nor in communion with any autonomous or autocephalous church is not necessarily a "patriachal" church, and some (the OCA) are not recognized by all "the ancient patriarchates." Yet the OCA does not recognize L'ECOF, either. Is L'ECOF in communion with some Orthodox Church, any Orthodox Church at all? If not, this wording better describes that and should not be changed to something more ambiguous.
- Looks like it's time for someone to freeze this section again. -- User:Willibrord
First, it isn't my language that I'm repeating. Second, how does your edit add ANY information? Is there an Orthodox Church you have in mind that is NOT included in the phrase "any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates"? Your language is less precise and less accurate. There are disputes as to what Orthodox Churches are autocephalous, for example. --Fr Lev 09:13, February 14, 2008 (PST)
- For the last time, not all "autocephalous and autonomous churches" are patriarchal, nor are all those listed on OrthodoxWiki recognized by "the ancient patriarchates." (I'm thinking specifically of the OCA.)
- As noted, Fr. John's exact wording mentioned "the ECOF not being in communion with any of the recognized Orthodox Churches." As you note, "recognized Orthodox churches" is not a widely used term; "autocephalous and autonomous churches" is a more understandable substitute. Thus, my edit more closely reflects his wording and intentions than yours. It should replace yours, both here and in the L'ECOF article, and be frozen.-- User:Willibrord
There is no ambiguity or imprecision in the original wording. The OCA is "in communion with the ancient patriarchates." --Fr Lev 09:24, February 14, 2008 (PST)
- There is greater precision on this language (not to mention an additional link to OrthodoxWiki). It seems your language is antiseptic and intended to introduce ambiguity about L'ECOF's actual canonical situation (namely, that it is in communion with no one). L'ECOF is not, in fact, in communion with anyone, is it? Why the roiling displeasure when this is so noted?
- At any rate, this is a matter the administrators will have to settle. --User:Willibrord
It's not my language, and it's certainly not intended to introduce ambiguity. The language of "in communion" is imprecise, in that other Churches have certainly communed both lay and clerical members of the Church of France -- with the blessing of hierarchs of those Churches. --Fr Lev 09:36, February 14, 2008 (PST)
- I'm not sure how many times this article (and the Orthodox Church of France article) has basically been changed between one edit to the other, but I'm fairly sure it's in the double digits.
- Irrespective, perhaps someone would be able to enlighten on why, in an overtly Mainstream Chalcedonian Biased Orthodox encyclopaedia, it is not possible to say 'presently outside the Orthodox Church'? It's not as if there is any ambiguity about the status, like there was until recently with ROCOR - this revert war has been between one set of words and the other set, when the point to communicate is that it is currently outside the Church, which can be done without needing to resort to any word above three syllables. — edited by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 09:42, February 14, 2008 (PST)
First, we have had many months of peace and stability on these articles. Second, I have yet to see how changing the statement is in any way an improvement. Third, I think Pistevo's comments are unhelpful. What is the point of mentioning "Chalcedonian" when the French Church is clearly Chalcedonian. And I don't I think saying "outside the Orthodox Church" is at all accurate. When "the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates" includes Churches and hierarchs who certainly view the Church of France as Orthodox (though irregular due to its current lack of an autocephalous sponsor) and have accepted its ordinations and communed its laity and clerics, then it is simply wrong to suggest it is outside the Orthodox Church. --Fr Lev 10:08, February 14, 2008 (PST)
Article protection
Gentlemen, this article has been protected to stop the revert-war that has been ongoing today. Mainstream Orthodox Church is the usual, non-controversial term here on the wiki. This explicitly refers to the list of autocephalous and autonomous churches. It is not controversial to say that a particular group is "not recognized by" or "out of communion with" the churches on that list.
I've adjusted the language to what I regard as more precise and less inflammatory. Though the "is not recognized by any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates" language is true, it could at least be seen to imply a semi-papal ecclesiology (i.e., that the ancient patriarchates define what it means to be Orthodox).
Uncanonical is not generally a useful term here, since its definition in common usage is all over the map. What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of not recognized by or out of communion with).
If y'all move your edit war (i.e., repeated reversions to the same edit) to another article, then you'll both be banned temporarily to allow a cooling-off period. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 11:09, February 14, 2008 (PST)
- I'm apologize that I've let this go on so long.
- I agree with Fr. Andrew about the term "uncanonical" but I'm also concerned about the phrase "Mainstream" (I know we use it in the style manual for our famous NPOV, but I think it fits better there)... If "uncanonical" is too vague, "mainstream" seems too relativist... On a previous revision of the article I had suggested "not recognized any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates." I think Fr. Andrew is right in his caution -- it is not simply the antiquity or prestige of these churches that makes them reference points. At the same time, "not currently recognized by nor in communion with any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church" is certainly written from a "Mainstream Chalcedonian Bias" which is actually fine here. I like Fr. Andrew's sentence: "What can be verified, however, is which churches make it onto which diptychs (which is the technical meaning of not recognized by or out of communion with" -- with this, there is no need for additional accusations invective, or high emotions. This is simply a question of fact. With this in mind, I'm going to change "mainstream" back to "any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church."
- If anyone has a better idea of how to work this balance out, let's talk here first. I'll watch the page to keep in the loop. Thanks, — FrJohn (talk)
- "Any autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church" has problems, too (e.g., the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, the Macedonian Orthodox Church, the Montenegrin Orthodox Church, etc.). There has to be some way to refer to what makes it onto this list which is both descriptive and exclusive. I prefer mainstream (linked to the list), since even the OCists often use the term. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 11:33, February 15, 2008 (PST)
- ...why not just say that the group isn't in communion with the Orthodox Church? Between MCB and the fact that they're not in communion with, well, anyone, this is both accurate and brief. And, I'm fairly certain that 'autonomous' is superfluous - an autonomous church, in external relations, still under its autocephalous mother church. — edited by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 13:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)
Which brings me back to the original language -- how was referring to "any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates" inadequate? That covers all of the autocephalous and autonomous Churches. It also avoid the less than correct language about "not in communion." A more descriptive statement would be that it exists in a state of "impaired communion" in that at least some of the other Churches recognize the ordinations of the French Church and have (officially) communed their clerics at the altar. --Fr Lev 15:20, February 15, 2008 (PST)
- Because Rome is an ancient patriarchate?
- Who officially communes them? Recognising the orders is no guarantee - we recognise(d) Catholic orders, but that doesn't mean that we're in communion. — edited by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 16:08, February 15, 2008 (PST)
Rome is not "one of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates." I've personally received communion from the head of one autocephalous Church and concelebrated with and received from the head of an autonomous Church, and been allowed to receive at the altar by the senior bishop of one of the ancient Orthodox patriarchates. --Fr Lev 16:22, February 15, 2008 (PST)
- No. It's an ancient patriarchate which is outside the Orthodox Church, demonstrating that age and prestige do not denote within-the-Church-or-not.
- One person's experience would constitute either 'original research' or 'improper sourcing' - and even so, it can be seen as a sequence of isolated cases, rather than acceptance by the Church in question. — edited by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 16:47, February 15, 2008 (PST)
You seem to miss the point of the original wording -- "any of the Orthodox Churches in communion with the ancient patriarchates" excludes Rome and non-"mainstream" Orthodox Churches but includes the OCA, etc. I wasn't trying to "source" the article by my own experience; I merely answered your question on this talk page. However, since I have been directly involved with the hierarchs in question, I do think I am in a better position to address the question than someone who has not been. But it is also more than just my experience; when I was given permission to receive at the altar by the primate's chancellor in one jurisdiction, I was told that this was his Church's policy regarding our clergy -- policy, and not an isolated or idiosyncratic event. That same chancellor later offered to receive me into his Church and give me a parish. When the chancellor of another Church here telephoned a patriarchal bishop in Europe to ask about the status of our clergy, he was told "Of course they are Orthodox." I have not tried to put any of this into the article; I am simply responding to the questions asked. --Fr Lev 17:10, February 15, 2008 (PST)
- The point of the original wording (or any wording) is to communicate an idea, but what that wording communicates is that being an ancient patriarchate is the primary measure, when it's clearly not. Even if it was, it would simply be a case of double-repetition - the aforementioned Orthodox Churches, in this MCB'd encyclopaedia, constitute the Orthodox Church.
- The point of asking that wasn't to give a bait-and-switch - I was actually asking about any official policies, edicts, proclamations, etc. regarding l'ECOF. Are there any issued, who from, and what are they? — by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 17:32, February 15, 2008 (PST)
- Just trying to make explicit the fact that the question was not asked for disingeneous reasons... — by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 03:37, February 16, 2008 (PST)
Reverts to inaccuracies about ROCOR, Czechs, Poles
Saying Christminster is the same of Mount Royal is incorrect. I have personal emails from Dom James (directing edits to the Christminster website) that explain clearly: Mount Royal still exists, and since its reception in 1962, and the election of the Prior as Abbot Augustine in 1963 - remains as Mount Royal (in Florida since 1993, where the Abbot retired in that year.) Christminster is a daughter house, founded in 1993 with Dom James as the Abbot (he was previously the Prior of Mount Royal.) I think some ROCOR clergy have also made other edits: about the Czech, and Polish Western rite - that were deleted (for which we have evidence from diocesan archives, as well as from our clergy who were there.) The Czech diocese was founded in 1898. Twenty-three years later the Serbians along with Met. Anthony (Khrapovitsky) of ROCOR consecrated St. Gorazd (Pavlik) as bishop for that diocese - which remained Western rite for a few more years. More than 'half a dozen parishes', the whole Diocese of Grodno was established with Bp Alexis consecrated as Bishop of Grodno for the received 'Polish Catholic National Church (not the same as the PNCC.) 'Dwindling' doesn't describe what happened to that body: they, like St. Gorazd, were largely arrested by the Nazis and placed in death camps. According to Fr. Michael Keiser (DME-AOCNA), there still exists one Western Rite community in the Polish Church in Poland. Aristibule
Sarum Usages
I am not an expert on this topic and do not claim to be, although I have some older and also recent sources dealing with Sarum usage, and am interested in western rites generally, (as well as Eastern and Oriental rites). I also want to avoid generating any heat on the topic. I also understand there is no definitive Sarum Usage, but a number of usages belonging to that family. So with that in mind, I have made a few changes in the body of the article just now and pray no-one is offended by them. It appears to me the reports of 2008 that Met Hilarion of ROCOR permitted the use of Fr Adrian Keller's selections and translations of the Sarum usage, alters the general picture somewhat and the article needed minor corrections to reflect that. If any contributor can improve on what I have altered, please do so. Chrisg 02:42, January 26, 2009 (UTC)
I added a few more changes on top of your changes. Most of the Sarum usages are essentially the same, generally qualifying only as individual local customs. On paper there is virtually no difference between them, though there are minor points of dispute between users of the rites. In actual fact, between Holy Name Abbey's and Fr Aidan's usages (both of which ROCOR approved), the differences are primarily stylistic in terms of rendering the English. I'm not an expert, but seeing this use often and using both the Abbey's and Father Aidan's texts, there is nothing in them that is essentially disparate (and I am certain the Cascades Sarum used in Australia is also very similar), save for their translators' views on how to render individual texts. The whole question of "authentic" versus "inauthentic" Sarum was nothing more than politics, when the texts themselves really weren't that different to begin with. --JosephSuaiden 02:52, January 26, 2009 (UTC)
The article on Liturgy, as it is now, says "The majority celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow, which is an adaptation of the Communion service from the 1928 Anglican Book of Common Prayer[4]". I earlier questioned the date of 1928. St Tikhon did his preparatory work in the early 1900s. Earlier in the main article it says his work was based on the 1898 (USA) Book of Common Prayer which derived from the Scottish Book of Common Prayer, not the English BCP. The citation given does not seem to support the 1928 date. In addition, one of the professors at the nearby national Episcopalian seminary (Rev Dr Joseph Frary) tells me the Saint Tikhon liturgy is almost completely the same as the 1898 (USA) BCP. Perhaps another citation could be found justifying the 1928 date, or the date changed to 1898. Thanks. Chrisg 02:56, January 26, 2009 (UTC)
I'm not against changing the date to 1898; I am not an expert on the date. But almost every source I read, including the footnote given in that essay, says "1928 Book of common prayer". I am not against putting it at 1898. I am against taking out a date altogether until we revert to the intellectually dishonest "ancient Orthodox use of the English Church", which has happened before, resurrecting the whole blasted fight. I have an idea for a fix.--JosephSuaiden 03:02, January 26, 2009 (UTC)
The Liturgy of St Tikhon was compiled by Fr Jospeh Angwin and was based on the 1928 BCP, which was the use in his parish, the Church of the Incarnation, Detroit. St Tikhon did not produce a liturgy. --Fr Lev 03:04, January 26, 2009 (UTC)
Was that the English 1928 BCP (which parliament rejected)? Chrisg 03:06, January 26, 2009 (UTC)
No, the American BCP. --Fr Lev 03:10, January 26, 2009 (UTC)
So, strictly speaking, it would be wrong to say the Liturgy of St Tikhon was approved by the Holy Synod of Moscow, but more correct to say the Holy Synod of Moscow approved the concept in principal but the rite now in use is based on the (Protestant Episcopal Church of USA) Book of Common Prayer of 1928? Chrisg 03:13, January 26, 2009 (UTC)
That's right. Moscow gave permission to St Tikhon to produce an Orthodox version of the American BCP, but that never happened. --Fr Lev 03:16, January 26, 2009 (UTC)
Could you or Joseph perhaps rewrite the article to clarify those details please? There has been widespread confusion over this for many years now. Thanks Chrisg 03:21, January 26, 2009 (UTC)
Hello, just an fyi... I found this article on the Wikipedia: Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA); I do not think I saw a reference to this non-canonical group in this article's section on congregations. Anyways, I was wondering if someone with knowledge of this would be able to clarify who this group is in a succint way and add it to the section on Congregations? Or if it even applies here...(i.e Old Catholic versus Western Rite??) ?
Cheers Angellight 888 01:54, February 6, 2009 (UTC)
- This is one of the Independent Orthodox churches and as such isn't included in our standard articles. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 12:16, February 6, 2009 (UTC)
Images under "Congregations"
All images should be related to the article's main points. Thus, I deleted the image of the "Old Sarum Rite Missal," which is not being celebrated anywhere within mainline Orthodoxy. (Except, perhaps, in one man's home prayers?) Fr. Alexander Turner was consequential in establishing many, many WRO congregations and seems a more representative image of Western Rite Orthodoxy (in both theory and practice). However, I kept a link to the image of the non-canonical Milan Synod's authorization of the "Old Sarum Rite Missal" as a footnote, as there had been none.--Willibrord 12:19, February 15, 2009 (UTC)
- Once again we see aggressive promoters of the "Old Sarum Rite Missal" invade the board. I see in retrospect the picture labeled "Synod of Milan Authorisation of Sarum Missal, ed Fr Aidan Keller" does not actually mention the authorization of the OSRM; it's just a picture of the MS Metropolitan Evloghios stuck in the missal. (Of course, the monastery that produced the "Old Sarum Rite Missal" once had a picture of the Patriarch of Antioch in its vestibule with the words "Our Patriarch" on it, as though they were Antiochian, so this picture doesn't carry much weight for me.) It would be an odd authorization, because Abp. John LoBue did NOT authorize its use in his Eastern USA archdiocese, preferring his own (superior) translation. To my knowledge, the OSRM was not used MS-wide (or widely even within the Western USA archdiocese).
- I should add, I'm not sure a missal that is not celebrated anywhere in Orthodoxy (with the possible exception of a spare room in one person's sister's apartment) is even appropriate to an article on the Western Rite and its "Congregations." Since I was falsely accused of "vandalism" for editing this page, I could see the uproar if I removed it on my own. But frankly, Orthodox priests use all sorts of things for their private prayers; the moderators may want to consider whether one person's private prayers are material to the page at all. --Willibrord 21:40, February 15, 2009 (UTC)
Fr Aidan's contribution to Western Rite Orthodoxy has been substantial, and while it is controversial to some, it shouldn't be ignored. His work is far from simply "celebrated in a room in his sister's house", and as I can't even see the link you have put up, I see no real reason to believe this bizzare claim about the picture. It should be noted that Fr Aidan's work is occasionally consulted in the Eastern Archdiocese, and the widely popular "Orthodox Prayers of Old England" is considered an invaluable resource by many. As one who has access to both translations, I see value in both of them.
It is an awful shame that you have this amazing disdain for a priest of a sister church of yours that you have gone on this tangent. I find the politicizing of this article on your part totally despicable, and will continue making corrections and now adding information you deleted.
For the record there is no such thing as a "Holyrood/St Petroc liturgy". Holyrood has always-- and continues to use the Milan Synod texts. I also found a better picture for "congregations" to use.--JosephSuaiden 01:46, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
Images under "Congregations" 2
- Joseph, it seems your comments meet the OrthodoxWiki definition of Uncivil Behavior in full: ad hominem name-calling, imputing motives, and attributing an emotional state/ulterior motive to others. It certainly does not promote communication.
- We have debated this before on other WR Talk pages, but I will reiterate: OrthodoxWiki is not a forum for subjective opinions but an encyclopedia containing objective facts.
- The facts remain clear:
- a) OrthodoxWiki is an encyclopedia of objective fact, not the place to express your opinion of the "value" of various books;
- b) This article has a subhead about WRO "Congregations";
- c) The "Old Sarum Rite Missal" is not celebrated by any congregation;
- d) If one person is praying it privately while celebrating the Byzantine liturgy, it is not particularly relevant to the Western Rite, period. Priests pray a variety of things privately with bishops' approval.
- For some reason, supporters of the "Old Sarum Rite Missal" seem intent on using the internet to equate "true" WRO with the OSRM, but OrthodoxWiki is not a forum for such advocacy.
- Other edits seem incorrect, as well:
- "There is no no such thing as a 'Holyrood/St Petroc liturgy'." Interesting; I'll have to let the hieromonks and faithful associated with Holyrood and St. Petroc know that. They all seem to think otherwise. Fr. Michael would be the first to say the St. Petroc recension of Sarum bears little resemblance to the OSRM.
- "Holyrood has always-- and continues to use the Milan Synod texts." According to Hieromonk David, he celebrates the Mt. Royal Order of Mass, which is available online and is clearly not the Milan Synod text. That would be impossible, since it predates the Milan Synod texts; Mt. Royal was received into Orthodoxy in 1962, 35 years before the MS had any Western Rite parishes.
- You state Hieromonk David uses "propers" from the Milan Synod; if true, that would be different than the Ordinary. If even that fact were true, the fact would remain that no quotation from Hieromonk David substantiates this. Can you provide one?
- Whatever your opinion of Benjamin Andersen's Occidentalis blog, it does not does not give you the right to remove it as a source for this article. It was/is clearly an invaluable contribution that informed much of this entry.
- You added a nice bit about Villate; I see no reason to take that out. --Willibrord 05:37, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
I would ascribe nothing but malice to spreading an unsubstantiated claim of theft even after repeated attempts at correction. (http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/07/orthodox-prayers-of-old-england-buyers.html)
You seem to assume that I myself am a partisan of the OSRM in question. I am not. Thus I did not get involved until your behavior seemed motivated by spite.
You are being dishonest about Holyrood. The text is only the text of the invariable parts of the service, which are almost the same as English translations of the Tridentine anyway. ALL the moveable parts come from the Milan Synod usages. Any quote of his usage would be anecdotal. Same on your part. However, I am not against removing mention of him altogether.
RE: the blog-- to whom was it invaluable? Not me; I am not part of the 'club'. I am simply restating a previous complaint.
Unless you can show that what I added was NOT factually correct, please, just stop.--JosephSuaiden 06:01, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
A couple of other points--
1) A major difference between the Milan texts and others is the inclusion of sequences and other parts of the texts that make a major difference in the size of the liturgy. Because of this, a simple Gregorian Mass and Sarum are very different. The ordinary is almost the same across the board. Thus, the liturgy itself would appear as that of a Milan Synod liturgy.
2) I wasn't calling you Torquemada; I meant that again the "Inquisition" mindset was returning, and that this was an argument against using post-schism services.--JosephSuaiden 06:23, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
Gentlemen: Take a deep breath. Enhance your calm. Cease inspiring the administration to just delete every WR article and put a permanent ban on their re-creation.
Thanks! :)
BTW, Mr. Andersen's weblog was indeed used as a source for the original formation of this article (I wrote it). Whether it remains a source or not depends on the current content. OW articles are never set in stone, so their sources can't be, either. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 15:16, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps as a moderator and original author you could peruse the article as it stands and verify that Subdn. Benjamin Andersen's blog remains a source? (I think it obviously does, but one read would verify it.) Joseph's argument, as far as I can tell, is that the blog should not be listed as a source because he (Joseph) has not been invited to participate in it.
- Otherwise, the matter is simply one of verifiable facts vs. speculation. Generally articles are ill served by replacing sourced statements with unsourced statements and matters that are off-topic.
- I'm not sure anything I've done has shown anything other than calm, good form, and attention to fact/source. There is, however, a personal slander of me on this page (concerning my blog); as such, I should either answer it or ask that it be deleted. I think the latter would be most appropriate. Please advise.
--Willibrord 18:13, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
I was not the first to make the complaint, though I noted this, this time around, for the same reason: Information which can only be gained through personal access should not be allowed. If we cannot gain access through a library nor even an archeological dig I question its value. Anything could be cited. Can you follow that logic?
As for just following 'good sound form', you realize your contributions can be tracked, right?
And as for the "Torquemada" issue, as anyone can see on recentchanges, I've been given a second warning.--JosephSuaiden 18:28, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
- I was referring to this slander: "I would ascribe nothing but malice to spreading an unsubstantiated claim of theft even after repeated attempts at correction. (http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/07/orthodox-prayers-of-old-england-buyers.html)." This is off-topic, personal, and wrong. As such, it should be deleted.
- The fact that a blog is "closed" does not mean it did not serve as a source for this article. And Subdn. Benjamin Andersen has always been good about adding people who wish to see his blog, provided he doesn't feel they are acting in bad faith. As for your comparison: we cannot lay our hands on, for instance, private correspondence by historical figures, but historians can -- and they can write about what they see. That does not change the fact that the correspondence serves as a source of their biographies.
- I had not seen the second warning. Section deleted. --Willibrord 18:38, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
You are correct. It *is* personal. Which is why I put it up. I believe your behavior is not based on doing right by the wiki but exacting a continued attack on Father Aidan Keller. (More proof can be found by searching "Keller" on the blog.) In that particular case, I note that you ignored attempts at factual correction (the customer received his book) because at least two attempts were my own. I thought what was done was unethical, and I stand by that. I also have the verbal testimony of Bp Jerome (Shaw) concerning your actions towards his reception in ROCOR.--JosephSuaiden 18:47, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
As for why that is relevant, see here: [1]
This is simply not the place to continue an argument with Fr Aidan Keller (or about him) on these subjects. If you want to try to have me banned at this point go ahead. But now I am not ascribing a motive. I put up a link. That it *appears* that you have *personal issues* with Fr Aidan is obvious to any objective reader, thus making the motivations behind your deletions suspect.
I put up all sorts of things "I don't like" on this Wiki-- because they are verifiable facts. Where I don't cite, I delete. Simple. --JosephSuaiden 19:09, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
- From the point of view of an (occasional) academic writer, sources that are not publicly accessible are indeed not to be relied on overmuch. A historian might get access to archival material, but one might presume that any historian could probably (given the right credentials) also get such access.
- I'm not really sure why it is Mr. Andersen chose to make his weblog private, but it does put anything based on his writing in the position of needing to be revised, since readers and editors won't have the option of checking the research.
- Anyway, I'm not sure that there's anything of exclusive value on his weblog that can't be sourced elsewhere. And really, why should anyone care where material is cited from, so long as the content itself is present? There seems to be a bit of a sectarian approach in your edits, Willibrord. I encourage you to set aside whatever prejudices for or against certain sources you might have and simply help to make sure that factual content is being presented and cited from reputable, third-party sources. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 22:11, February 16, 2009 (UTC)


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WASHINGTON (AP) -- Food companies and restaurants could soon face government pressure to make their foods less salty — a long-awaited federal effort to try to prevent thousands of deaths each year from heart disease and stroke.
The Food and Drug Administration is preparing to issue voluntary guidelines asking the food industry to lower sodium levels, FDA Commissioner Margaret Hamburg told The Associated Press. Hamburg said in a recent interview that the sodium is "of huge interest and concern" and she hopes the guidelines will be issued "relatively soon."
"We believe we can make a big impact working with the industry to bring sodium levels down, because the current level of consumption really is higher than it should be for health," Hamburg said.
The food industry has already made some reductions, and has prepared for government action since a 2010 Institute of Medicine report said companies had not made enough progress on making foods less salty. The IOM advised the government to establish maximum sodium levels for different foods, though the FDA said then — and maintains now — that it favors a voluntary route.
Americans eat about 1½ teaspoons of salt daily, about a third more than the government recommends for good health and enough to increase the risk of high blood pressure, strokes and other problems. Most of that sodium is hidden inside common processed foods and restaurant meals.
In addition to flavor, companies use sodium to increase shelf life, prevent the growth of bacteria, or improve texture and appearance. That makes it more difficult to remove from some products, Hamburg noted.
Once the guidelines are issued, Americans won't notice an immediate taste difference in higher-sodium foods like pizza, pasta, bread and soups. The idea would be to encourage gradual change so consumers' taste buds can adjust, and to give the companies time to develop lower-sodium foods.
"I think one of the things we are very mindful of is that we need to have a realistic timeline," Hamburg said.
Health groups would prefer mandatory standards, but say voluntary guidelines are a good first step.
Still, Michael Jacobson of the Center for Science in the Public Interest says he is concerned companies may hesitate, worried that their competitors won't lower sodium in their products.
If that happens, "then FDA should start a process of mandatory limits," Jacobson says.
That's what companies are worried about. Though the limits would be voluntary, the FDA is at heart a regulatory agency, and the guidelines would be interpreted as a stern warning.
Brian Kennedy of the Grocery Manufacturers Association, which represents the country's biggest food companies, says the group is concerned about the FDA setting targets and any guidelines should be based on a "rigorous assessment of all available scientific evidence."
The food industry has pointed to a separate 2013 IOM report that said there is no good evidence that eating sodium at very low levels — below the 2,300 milligrams a day that the government recommends — offers benefits. The government recommends that those older than 50, African-Americans and people with high blood pressure, diabetes or chronic kidney disease eat 1,500 milligrams a day. The American Heart Association recommends that everyone eat no more than 1,500 milligrams a day.
Those pushing for sodium limits say it's pointless to debate how low the recommendations should go — Americans are still eating around 3,400 milligrams a day.
Many food companies and retailers already have pushed to reduce salt. Wal-Mart pledged to reduce sodium in many items by 25 percent by next year, and food giant ConAgra Foods says it made a 20 percent reduction. Subway restaurants said it has made a 30 percent reduction restaurant-wide.
The companies say that in some cases, just removing added salt or switching ingredients does the trick. Potassium chloride can also substitute for common salt (sodium chloride), though too much can cause a metallic taste.
Levels can vary widely. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, sodium in a slice of white bread ranges from 80 milligrams to 230 milligrams. Three ounces of turkey deli meat can have 450 milligrams to 1,050 milligrams.
Those ranges give health advocates hope.
"Those differences say to me that the companies that make the highest-sodium products could certainly reduce levels to the same as the companies that make the lower-sodium products," Jacobson says.
Still, the guidelines could be a hard sell. In recent years, congressional Republicans have fought the Obama administration over efforts to require calorie labels on menus and make school lunches healthier. When the administration attempted to create voluntary guidelines for advertising junk food for children, the industry balked and Republicans in Congress fought the idea, prompting the administration to put them aside.
Other members of Congress are pushing the agency to act.
"As the clock ticks, America's blood pressure, along with health costs due to chronic disease, continues to rise," says Sen. Tom Harkin, chairman of the Senate committee that oversees the FDA.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Good morning.
Our early headlines:
-- 200 Feared Dead In Syria's Bloodiest Day So Far.
-- JPMorgan Earned $5B In Second Quarter Even After $4.4B Trading Loss.
-- Penn State Scandal: Freeh Uncovered More About Paterno Than State Did.
-- Destruction Of Timbuktu's Treasures Continues; Humanitarian Crisis Looms.
-- Nervous On This Friday The 13th? Once Again, We Can Help.
Other top stories:
-- "U.S. Concerned As Syria Moves Chemical Stockpile." ( The Wall Street Journal)
-- "Geithner Identified Libor Problems In '08." ( CNNMoney)
-- "In Latest Data On Economy, Experts See Signs Of Pickup." ( The New York Times)
-- In Los Angeles, "LAPD Officers, Occupy L.A. Protesters Clash During ArtWalk Downtown." ( Los Angeles Times)
Copyright 2020 NPR. To see more, visit https://www.npr.org.


text:
MILWAUKEE, WI (TOPS)-- It's the beginning of the New Year, and resolutions abound for many. Losing weight, exercising more frequently, and eating more healthfully are common goals. What if you could do all of the above and save a few dollars at the same time? This January, consider the following strategies from TOPS Club Inc. the nonprofit weight-loss support organization, to create flavorful, nutritious meals that won't hurt your wallet.
Eat In More and Out Less
While they require more planning, home-cooked meals are an excellent way to minimize your grocery bill, and they are typically healthier than the options you may find when dining out.
• Double or triple your recipes and freeze leftovers in individual containers to eat throughout the week.
• Make at least one meal a week meatless. Choose recipes that utilize beans (canned or dried) and grains, which add a boost of nutrition.
Plan Ahead
A meal planning chart or simple shopping list for the week are great tools for the budget-minded, health-conscious consumer. Knowing what you already have in the pantry and what you intend to make ahead of time reduces impulse spending, saves time, and improves the nutritional value of your meal.
• Take part of one day a week to plan the upcoming week's menu. Search "meal planning charts" online for a variety of templates and convenient shopping tools.
• Include meals that will "stretch" more expensive food items, like stews, casseroles, and stir-fries.
• In addition to reviewing weekly store circulars in advance for sales, check the back of your grocery receipt for additional coupons. Also check online for coupons, simply by searching for the products that you use and visiting the manufacturers' websites.
Shop Smart
In addition to shopping at grocery stores, consider local markets, dollar stores, and shopping online, if available in your neighborhood. For the best deals at the market, look for reduced produce or end-of-the-day specials. Many online grocery services offer discounted or free shipping if you spend a minimum amount, and you'll be more inclined to stick to your list and avoid splurging on unnecessary purchases.
Some other suggestions include:
• Only shop once a week. This makes it easier to avoid unnecessary purchases and encourages you buy only what you need for the weekly menu.
• Have a snack before you visit the grocery store. Shopping on an empty stomach can lead to impulse buying.
• Shop alone, to prevent family members' impulse selections from ending up in the shopping cart.
• "Shop the perimeter" of the store, remembering that the least healthy and most overpriced packaged foods are concentrated in the middle aisles.
• Look high and low (literally) on store shelves to find generic items from store brands, which are often less expensive than, but identical to, name-brand items, which are placed at eye level on shelves.
• Buying "economy" or "family size" containers is sometimes a better buy – if you truly eat all of the food in the package. If it spoils and has to be thrown away, it may just be a waste of money. Select large packages of meat, poultry, and fish, and place them in separate freezer bags at home for each meal. Non-perishable items like canned food, cereal, soup, and nuts are a good choice.
• Avoid purchasing "convenience" foods, like single-serving snacks, pre-cut fruits and vegetables, and instant rice. Buy a larger-sized container and portion out your own snacks, cut your own produce, and spend a few minutes cooking the rice. These efforts may take a bit of extra time up front but will ultimately save you dollars.
• If fresh fruits and vegetables are cost-prohibitive, try the frozen or canned versions made with "100% juice" and "low sodium," respectively. Frozen produce is often flash-frozen at the source, locking in nutrients. Rinse canned vegetables before cooking to further reduce the sodium content.
Visitors are welcome to attend their first TOPS meeting free of charge. Membership is affordable at just $28 per year in the U.S. plus nominal chapter fees. To find a local chapter, view www.tops.org or call (800) 932-8677.


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Updated: 4:30 p.m. CST
AUSTIN, Texas — A federal judge declared a same-sex marriage ban in deeply conservative Texas unconstitutional on Wednesday, but will allow the nation's second-most populous state to enforce the law pending an appeal that will likely go to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Judge Orlando Garcia issued the preliminary injunction after two gay couples challenged a state constitutional amendment and a longstanding law. His ruling is the latest in a tangled web of lawsuits across the country expected to end up in the Supreme Court next year.
"Without a rational relation to a legitimate governmental purpose, state-imposed inequality can find no refuge in our United States Constitution," Garcia wrote. "These Texas laws deny plaintiffs access to the institution of marriage and its numerous rights, privileges, and responsibilities for the sole reason that Plaintiffs wish to be married to a person of the same sex."
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Garcia said the couples are likely to win their case and the ban should be lifted, but said he would not enforce his ruling pending one by the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals, which already is hearing two other states' cases. He also will give Texas time to appeal to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans.
Garcia, appointed by President Bill Clinton, is the first judge in the conservative 5th Circuit to reach such a decision. Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott, who also is the leading Republican candidate to succeed Gov. Rick Perry, promised to appeal the decision to the New Orleans court.
"This is an issue on which there are good, well-meaning people on both sides," Abbott said in a statement. "The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled over and over again that States have the authority to define and regulate marriage."
The ruling is the latest in a series of victories for gay rights activists following similar decisions in Utah, Oklahoma and Virginia. The U.S. Supreme Court put the Utah ruling on hold until the 10th Circuit can consider an appeal, and Garcia said he would respect that order as well.
Mark Phariss and Victor Holmes filed their federal civil rights lawsuit saying Texas' ban unconstitutionally denied them the fundamental right to marry because of their sexual orientation. Cleopatra De Leon and Nicole Dimetman filed a lawsuit saying Texas officials violated their rights by not recognizing their marriage conducted in a state where gay marriage is legal.
"Having been together almost 17 years, we look forward to the day when we can get married and when all gay Texans enjoy equal rights to marry as well," Phariss and Holmes said in a statement.
Dimetman and De Leon said they hope to retake their vows in Texas.
Todd Staples, a candidate for lieutenant governor who drafted the constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, denounced the court's decision.
"I am disappointed that judicial activism is once again trying to trump the will of the people. This ruling is the poster child of the culture war occurring in America today," he said.
Another gay couple has filed a separate lawsuit in federal court in Austin. In that case, two men argue that the ban discriminates against them based on their gender. That case is scheduled for a hearing later this year.
Follow the case: De Leon v. Perry.
Developing story, check back for updates.
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A brief and abstract chronicle of some of Tuesday's more interesting political stories, the kinds of stories that might get people who like politics talking around a water cooler, if people still did that sort of thing.
Conventional wisdom in Washington is that the Republican brand stands to take a politically painful hit with voters if there's a government shutdown since that's what happened in the 1990s. Some conservative Republicans beg to differ, writes Alexandra Jaffe in The Hill. Are these people whistling past the graveyard? Maybe.
Three House Republican leaders of the past told National Journal's Jill Lawrence that the House's current leaders have it far tougher than they did, though they gave varying reasons why. Former Speaker Dennis Hastert isn't as sanguine as the aforementioned conservatives interviewed by The Hill. If House Republicans achieve little that resembles governing, "we're going to lose our majority," he says. He should know; it happened to him in 2006.
In a New York magazine profile of Hillary Clinton by writer Joe Hagan, the former secretary of state comes off as working hard to portray herself as temporarily above the partisan fray as the jockeying for 2016 roils around her. The image the piece brings to mind is of a political swan, all grace above the water's surface but paddling furiously beneath it.
If Democrat Terry McAuliffe goes on to win the Virginia race for governor, it will be largely on the votes of women who according to a new poll now prefer him by 24 percentage points over Republican Ken Cuccinelli, the state's current lieutenant governor. (A poll in May found them tied for women.) Cuccinelli's conservative abortion views and the McAuliffe campaign's efforts to paint Cuccinelli as a three-star general in the so-called Republican war on women have apparently taken a heavy toll on the Republican.
With Obamacare set to start enrolling individuals next week, Politico's Jennifer Haberkorn and Carrie Budoff Brown remind us that the program falls significantly short of its creators' hopes when President Obama signed it into law in 2010. Large employers were given a year's delay before they must provide insurance, and dozens of states have refused to set up exchanges, for instance.
Former President George W. Bush defends President Obama from critics who accuse the present Oval Office occupant of spending too much time golfing. "I know the pressures of the job. To be able to get outside and play golf with some of your pals is important for the president. It does give you an outlet," the former president told a Golf Channel interviewer. Now, watch this drive.
Copyright 2021 NPR. To see more, visit https://www.npr.org.


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In her most emotionally wrenching, lyrically written book since the multiple-award-winning Speak, Laurie Halse Anderson explores Lia's descent into the powerful vortex of anorexia, and her painful path toward recovery.
Debut author Jennifer Jabaley has written a wonderful, feel-good romantic comedy with real emotional depth. Full of lovably wacky characters, Lipstick Apology is a heartwarming story about the true meaning of forgiveness.
Enter yourself and tell your friends! If response is good, I'll be able to host even more of these in the future.


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Survivor: New House Island
Have finally - four days behind schedule - received the contents of our household, which are now sitting nicely in our new driveway in a big storage pod that we must painstakingly empty ourselves, having blown our moving budget and stock of personal favors on getting people to drag our shit out of the snow over the past week (including, but not limited to, making private arrangements to have our street - our old street - plowed so that the storage pod could finally be removed from its snowbank and transported, four days late, to our new house). Have also, finally, after three missed service calls - missed because of move hellishness and winter storm fuckage - got wireless internet service and cable connected and can now sit on one of our brand new (purchased in desperation) mattresses on our pretty new hardwood floor and catch up on everything that we have missed lo these interminable four days of camping out sans furniture and appliances and toothbrushes and everything else that we had packed in expectation of unpacking almost immediately.
(No, we couldn't go stay at a hotel, because we had to be at the new house at all variety of odd hours to accommodate move-related service calls, most of which we missed because we had to spend so much time at the old house - an hour away - dealing with the endless loose ends that became badly unravelled when our original moving plans got messed up.)
It's been hell, I'm exhausted, I'm crabby, and I need to sleep for, like, two weeks. Could somebody please tell Santa to bring me peace and quiet and somebody who could put my house in order? Thanks.
(I sound much pissier than I actually am. I am, as it goes, very happy to be in my new house, even though it's mostly empty; my exhaustion and crabbiness don't preclude moments of bliss as I look out our pretty picture windows at an expanse of snowy trees and pretty old Georgian houses covered in fairy lights and listen to the sweet, sweet sound of quiet. But now would not be the time to send me bad news. I'm just sayin'. Listening, gods?)
(PS: even though we finally have wireless service, our provider is messing with us and our old e-mail accounts aren't working. I can only, for the time being, be reached at herbadmother at gmail dot com right now - so if you've sent me messages at my other account, I haven't received them.)


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Monday, January 5, 2009
Bonus Side Tangent Contest Results
Monday, January 5, 2009
Mary B was the first to submit it, and I must say being sick never looked so cute. Of course, I would assume this is a "get well soon" cake, not a "Yay! You have the flu/chicken pox!" cake. Still, not bad.
Jan G. took a more causal* approach to the challenge:
As near as we can make out, the cake board says "I love microbes!" leaving us to assume the purple and yellow mass is supposed to be...a microbe. (It's a gift - what can I say?) Since bacteria and viruses are microbes, and this cake is *clearly* quite enamored with those, I'd say we have as close to a winner as we're going to get. Excellent work, Jan!
* Yes, "causal", not "casual" - though I can see how you'd get those mixed up.
60 comments | Post a Comment
- Thistledew Farm said...
A salute to microbes - yum
- January 5, 2009 at 1:31 PM
- packy said...
Well, I could easily see how a biotech student/researcher would love microbes. In fact, I think this looks very much like your average Eukaryote (Wikipedia).
It's cute! - January 5, 2009 at 1:42 PM
The microbe might be an amoeba; you might have seen them in high school biology. They're like giant bags of goo that change shape to move. Or it might be a paramecium; those purple spikes coming of the purple edge could be cilia, which are little hair-like appendages the paramecium uses as paddles to move around. The purple blob of icing in the center-right is supposed to be a nucleus, so this can't be a virus or a bacterium; viruses don't look like cells, and bacteria don't have nuclei (that's where we eukaryotes - animals, plants, fungi, and protists like amoebas - store our DNA).
And that, my friends, is your science factoid of the day! - January 5, 2009 at 1:42 PM
- Kelly said...
Illness never looked so tasty.
- January 5, 2009 at 1:43 PM
- SarahDances said...
Hah! *Finally* a cake whose shape actually lends itself to being a CCC!
- January 5, 2009 at 1:45 PM
Thanks Jen. I love bonus day. The first one would not be wrecky save for the subject. It appears to be quite well done.
Thyli....for those who have trouble saying tylenol. - January 5, 2009 at 1:49 PM
just awesome
I'm a total sience geek, so the microbial ccc is fantastic - January 5, 2009 at 1:54 PM
Now THERE'S a shape that a CCC can effectively create.
(Did you know that it is possible to buy stuffed-toy microbes? Yes it is. Some of my friends in medical fields adore them. http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/plush/6708/) - January 5, 2009 at 1:54 PM
- HorribleLicensePlates said...
Looks more like an amoeba than a bacterium. But that's just me.
- January 5, 2009 at 1:55 PM
- Boozy Tooth said...
Just one question... do you have to take an Airborne before you have a slice?
- January 5, 2009 at 1:55 PM
- Shelli said...
Did you notice the flu cake is actually chicken pox? Does it still count? It is cute, though!
- January 5, 2009 at 2:08 PM
As a medical student, I love microbes too (well, at least in theory)!
- January 5, 2009 at 2:10 PM
- ROYALTY said...
I actually have a friend who is sick and I am going to make her the first cake, she would get such a kick out of it!!
- January 5, 2009 at 2:17 PM
- Mari said...
Disgustingly cute!
- January 5, 2009 at 2:26 PM
Okay, I actually love both these cakes, although I might have a hard time eating a diseased face (or a healthy face, for that matter). If nothing else, as has already been noted, congratualtions to the decorator who actually managed to find a shape at CCC can properly acheive!
Word Verification: worthpo--
Most of the cakes on this site are worthpo. - January 5, 2009 at 2:28 PM
- Jellybean said...
That scarf around a Southpark-character-face cake is sooooooo adorable! I'd love to make that in varying expressions for many occasions!
- January 5, 2009 at 2:32 PM
- Jenni said...
Probably the only cake that will look good as a ccc.
- January 5, 2009 at 2:40 PM
A piece for me? Oh thanks, but I think I'll wait til after the candles are blown out - I like my germ cake with a little DNA sample sprayed on top!
- January 5, 2009 at 3:03 PM
- WM said...
This proves that like Hallmark cards, there is apparently a cake for everything...
- January 5, 2009 at 3:04 PM
- @wendydesigns said...
I know what event that first cake represents... it's the perfect cake for a Chicken Pox Party!
(Do they still have those? Or are people now favoring the vaccine?) - January 5, 2009 at 3:19 PM
- the un-bride said...
That is just so wonderful in so many wrong ways!
- January 5, 2009 at 3:42 PM
- Das Mutter said...
OMG, I love them! They are so posted on my FB account. Cute!
- January 5, 2009 at 3:51 PM
- purplewowies said...
That first cake looks like it COULD be for a pox party.
And yes, voxwoman, they are still having those. - January 5, 2009 at 3:59 PM
- An Apron Straitjacket said...
I want to get sick just so I can have that get well soon cake. Seriously cute.
- January 5, 2009 at 4:01 PM
Let's just hope the receiver of these cakes isn't too sick to eat them.
:has a brilliant idea:
:cough hack wheeze:
Aw man! I'm getting sick! Anybody wanna make me a cake? No? Well, it was worth a shot. - January 5, 2009 at 4:42 PM
- Morgan said...
Jen, for someone who keeps such a clean comments section, you should be careful with your placement of "flu/chicken". For a second I thought you were talking about some kind of Tourette's Pox.
- January 5, 2009 at 5:30 PM
- Mama H said...
I have been looking everywhere for a microbe cake! Thanks for the idea! :-)
- January 5, 2009 at 5:44 PM
- Crafty Coffin said...
My mom worked in a hospital lab and growing up, I remember many home-made cakes designed to look like a petri plate with colonies of bacteria growing on it. This may be why I ended up in the same career field.
- January 5, 2009 at 6:00 PM
- Athryn said...
I love Amoeba cake!
- January 5, 2009 at 6:23 PM
- Wicked said...
Gah! you just reminded me of the fact that when i was in the 6th grade... I made a Cell cake for biology class. It was great, until i tried to transport it on the bus. Then it got smooshed. Still tasted good though.
- January 5, 2009 at 7:10 PM
I found that CCC purely by accident and when I saw the challenge two days later I freaked! It was from a science club for some college in Virginia, I think. It's kinda cute in a sickly way! ~Jan
- January 5, 2009 at 7:30 PM
Now that is the proper use for a CCC as it's really the only shape it actually makes. Well done.
- January 5, 2009 at 7:51 PM
wow. I think the microbes cake is the only "good' application for a lumpy-sided CCC.
- January 5, 2009 at 8:01 PM
I am searching around desperately for a photo because my friend had a severe eye infection last year around exam time and another friend of ours got him an ear infection cake, it was genius, a huge ear with blood coming out of it.
- January 5, 2009 at 9:07 PM
If you're sick, though, would you feel like eating? :)
- January 5, 2009 at 9:23 PM
- Hayley said...
I can't believe someone actually made a microbe CCC. This makes my day :)
- January 5, 2009 at 10:08 PM
A microbe is about the only thing a CCC can do that a real cake can't.
- January 5, 2009 at 10:15 PM
- Deanna said...
My sister told me she wanted me to visit a very funny website and I have been laughing for the past hour! I love this blog. I would like to add it to my favorites list on my Timeless Things blog. Let me know if that is okay with you.
Such a delightful site. Thanks for the laughs. I needed it today.
Deanna :) - January 5, 2009 at 11:38 PM
- cadylee said...
I think the microbe is an appropriate use for a CCC.
- January 6, 2009 at 3:28 AM
- Keemster said...
The microbe cake reminded me of putting notes on our food in the shared kitchen refrigerator in my college dorm that said "science project." That would be a great thing to put on the microbe ccc. I'm sure the football players would still eat it anyway, just like they ate the food in college. We got them back with a delicious batch of exlax brownies...
- January 6, 2009 at 5:44 AM
- Cottagecheap said...
Alright...the bacterium can't WIN...because both the regular flu (rhinovirus) and stomach flu (rotovirus) are VIRAL, bacteria can't win this contest! LOL
however, if it were say e. coli, we might have "food poisoning" winner? :P
Sorry, couldn't resist being overly analytical.
I love that first cake and honestly for once a CCC makes sense to me! - January 6, 2009 at 8:20 AM
- Sihaya said...
Hmmm. I'm afraid that both cakes are "sweets", though the second one is a very specialized kind of sweet. As an amateur, I'd make it for a biology nerd, for sure. One thing's for sure; without Cake Wrecks, I'd probably never get to see anything like them. Thanks, Wreck Mistress!
- January 6, 2009 at 9:17 AM
- sarah k. said...
I have to admit that upon first sight, the microbe cake looked more like a vomit cake to me, but hey, that's within the parameters of the challenge. Yum.
- January 6, 2009 at 9:19 AM
- Unknown said...
A microbe cake! Perfect for your favourite Lab Rat or Doctor! Yesssssss!
~Amy B. - January 6, 2009 at 11:16 AM
nicely done, I didn't think it was possible to find a cake for that "occasion" but you proved me wrong! The first one is cute too, I agree.
- January 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM
- Miranda said...
Yeah? I want a paramecium cake.
- January 6, 2009 at 12:08 PM
- Ari said...
Okay, seriously, who wants to eat cake when they're sick? Too much frosting makes me feel a little urpy when I'm perfectly healthy. Can't imagine receiving a cake while ill and actually enjoying it.
The microbe cake is ADORABLE, though, and since it's an amorphous blob to start with, it seems like a perfect subject for a CCC. - January 6, 2009 at 12:50 PM
- Rima said...
I think maybe it says "I HAVE microbes". You know, what better way to inform a lover about his/her new condition than by sending a cake?
- January 6, 2009 at 1:40 PM
I saw the cutest cupcake cake the other day--no, wait, come back! It was handmade by a man for his wife's anniversary. It looked like a curly-haired teddy bear, but here's the thing: Those little points of frosting--rosettes?--that were used as accents on the microbe cake were the bear's fur and eyes and all. As in, you could take the thing apart without having a pound of frosting glop off on your hand. A pointillist cupcake cake! I'm going to try to convince the happy wife to send a picture here.
Jenny Islander - January 6, 2009 at 2:22 PM
- JaniceM said...
The chicken pox one would be cute for a pox party. :)
- January 6, 2009 at 5:16 PM
- Charly said...
I am SHOCKED that you did not mention that the microbe was a CCC!!!
- January 6, 2009 at 9:10 PM
- Anne said...
I stumbled across this blog while voting....and I have to say it's hilarious!! I'll be back
- January 7, 2009 at 11:03 AM
- Yukko said...
very very nice cake!!
- January 8, 2009 at 12:48 AM
- Teagan Blackthorne said...
Great, now my son(age 5) wants a germ cake for his birthday. He wants to be an infectious disease doctor when he grows up. The bakery is going to look at me like I am nuts.
- January 8, 2009 at 1:55 PM
I will say, cup-cake cakes do well as amoebas.
- January 11, 2009 at 1:34 AM
- Sheila said...
I would have sworn it said 'Microbia!' :-P
- January 11, 2009 at 2:03 AM
i love the microbe cake!
and what, pray tell, is a "chicken pox party"? - January 12, 2009 at 5:31 PM
A "chicken pox party" is where parents bring their kids who haven't had the pox yet over to visit another kid who's got them so their kids will catch it and get it over with at a particularly opportune time (since, after all, the best way to guard against potentially fatal adult chicken pox is getting them as a child).
- January 12, 2009 at 8:12 PM
- J. said...
it looks like a culture so all the dots are actually little colonies that grew on the culture.
- January 27, 2009 at 11:49 AM
The only things people can achieve with CCCs are bacteria... And Dittos. Don't ask.
Verification word is rebans, creepy. - August 19, 2009 at 8:42 PM
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text:
I don't know if this type of visual representation is even possible: there are peoples like native Americans, or Bantu farmers where a single haplogroup dominates decisively, but most human groups show a mix of a variety of lineages at different frequencies. The wide distribution of haplogroup G for example -which occurs throughout west Eurasia, but is only dominant in the Caucasus and some populations of the Near East- could not be guessed from this map. The labeling of R1 as "NE Amerindian" is peculiar, given the likely introduction of this lineage with European colonists.
In any case, this pushes to the limit what is possible for map-making at this scale, and underscores the complexities of the present-day distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroups.


text:
NEW YORK (AP) — The makers of Thomas' English muffins and Tastykake snacks are emerging as two of the bidders for Wonder Bread and other Hostess bread brands as the company tries to sell off its assets under bankruptcy-court oversight, a newspaper reported Saturday.
The Wall Street Journal said Hostess Brands Inc. could reveal as early as next week that Flowers Foods Inc. and Grupo Bimbo SAB are in discussions to acquire its bread brands, which also include Nature's Pride. The report said the brands could command $350 million.
Grupo Bimbo's brands include Arnold breads, Thomas' English muffins and Entenmann's cakes. Flowers Foods Inc.'s brands include Nature's Own breads and Tastykake snacks.
Hostess sells Twinkies, Ding Dongs and Ho Hos, along with Dolly Madison cakes, which includes Coffee Cakes and Zingers. Hostess also sells Devil Dogs, Funny Bones, and Yodels under the Drake's brand.
Hostess, which is based in Irving, Texas, announced in November that it was shutting down its business and selling its bread, snacks and cakes brands along with its 33 bakeries and other operations.
The company's demise came after years of management turmoil and turnover. Workers said the company failed to invest in updating its snack cakes and breads. Hostess filed for its second bankruptcy protection in less than a decade last year, citing steep costs associated with its unionized workforce.
The company was able to reach a new contract agreement with its largest union, the Teamsters, but the bakers union rejected the terms and went on strike Nov. 9. A week later, Hostess announced its plans to liquidate, saying the strike crippled its ability to maintain normal production. In 2011, the company's revenue was $2.5 billion.
Hostess declined to comment, as did Grupo Bimbo's U.S. division, Bimbo Bakeries USA. Bimbo's parent company is headquartered in Mexico. A message left with Flowers Foods, which is based in Thomasville, Georgia, was not immediately returned.
Hostess said in bankruptcy court proceedings in December that it was narrowing down the bids it had received and that it expects to sell off its snack cakes and bread brands to different buyers.
Hostess said in December that it expects to file binding bids for many of its brands this month, followed by a four-week auction process to allow competing bids. Closings for many brands could come as soon as mid-March, according to Joshua Scherer of Perella Weinberg Partners, which is advising Hostess.
An attorney for Hostess said in court in December that 1,100 employees had been retained to shut down plants and perform other tasks as it winds down its operations. The liquidation of the company will ultimately mean the loss of 18,000 jobs, not including those shed in the years leading to the company's failure.