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Work on a 180,000-square-foot Starbucks Coffee Co. manufacturing facility in Augusta remains on schedule for an early 2014 completion date.
The plant's packaging operations, however, are expected to begin earlier in October, according to Starbucks spokesman Zack Hutson.
"So far, we have made significant progress on the roasting, packaging and office areas of the plant," Hutson said. "We are still working on the part of the plant that will house the soluble technology."
Construction began in July 2012 on the $172 million facility, which will produce Starbucks VIA Ready Brew, the coffee base for its Frappuccino beverages and many Starbucks ready-to-drink products.
More than 140 workers will be employed at the site in Augusta Corporate Park, off Mike Padgett Highway. Hiring is underway and many positions, including maintenance mechanics, automation specialists and operators, still need to be filled. The plant manager and human resources staff have already been hired, Hutson said.
The plant will take up about 100 acres, leaving about 1,100 usable acres at the corporate park, said Walter Sprouse, the executive director of the Augusta Economic Development Authority.
Sprouse said the Seattle-based company is the first to locate in the industrial park and looked at the site for about a year.
"It's not unusual for a company to look for a year-and-a-half," he said.
Since the Starbucks announcement in early 2012, Sprouse said the site has been shown nearly a dozen times to prospective tenants. Two companies are each interested in 200 acres, he said.
"It's always good to have some activity going on in an industrial park because it attracts attention," Sprouse said.
The Augusta location was chosen because of its workforce availability, transportation access, logistics and technology base, quality of life and support from local and state leaders, Hutson said.
The Augusta plant is Starbucks' first company-owned global manufacturing facility to make soluble products, which are currently produced abroad. The company has four other U.S. roasting plants that collectively employ more than 800 workers.
"We are proud to be bringing high-quality manufacturing jobs to Augusta, when many American companies are sourcing products from overseas," Hutson said.


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I am a little late to the party here, but hey! Glad to meet another fellow fan. I haven't been on here in a while since it seemed a lot of his stuff dried up. How big is your collection?
Hello! I am also a Garrett Wolfe collector, and I have to say I love your collection man! I hope mine can someday be like yours.

subset: commoncrawl


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WASHINGTON | It's more than President Barack Obama's lackluster debate performance that has some Democrats on edge a month from Election Day.
WASHINGTON | It's more than President Barack Obama's lackluster debate performance that has some Democrats on edge a month from Election Day.
Party loyalists, in Washington and in battleground states, are fretting that Obama's campaign has been slow to rebound after Republican Mitt Romney's commanding debate. They're worried that the Democratic ticket isn't aggressive enough in blocking Romney's post-debate pivot to the political center. And they fear Romney's new effort to show a softer side gives the Republican nominee an opening with female voters, who are crucial to the president's re-election prospects.
"I'm not feeling very positive," said Awilda Marquez, a prominent Democrat in Colorado. "I know that it's only the first debate, but he can't seem to change the relentless negative coverage. Romney has been able to take control."
Her nervousness was echoed by roughly a dozen Democrats in interviews across the country this week before Obama's next opportunity to get his campaign back on track — Vice President Joe Biden's debate Thursday against Republican Paul Ryan.
Obama's campaign says it's sticking to its homestretch plan and doesn't expect major strategy changes. But nevertheless, the president and his aides are seeking to reassure anxious Democrats that key factors are still in their favor.
"By next week, I think a lot of the hand-wringing will be complete because we're going to go ahead and win this thing," Obama said in an interview with radio host Tom Joyner.
The president appears to maintain a narrow lead in polling in many battleground states and has more pathways than Romney to reach the 270 Electoral College votes required to win the White House. More Democrats than Republicans are registered to vote in swing states like Florida and Nevada. And last Friday's dip in the nation's unemployment rate to 7.8 percent gave some credence to Obama's core argument that the economy is slowly but surely recovering.
But there's little doubt that the burst of momentum Obama enjoyed last month has ground to a halt following the first debate. That's given Romney ample opportunity to rebound from a dismal September with just four weeks until Election Day and millions of Americans already casting early votes. Polls taken after the debate show the race tightening nationally and in key states, though both parties say the president maintains an edge in places like Ohio and Virginia.
"I've never seen a candidate this late in the game, so far ahead, just throw in the towel in the way Obama did last week," wrote Andrew Sullivan, a blogger and ardent Obama supporter.
Most Democrats aren't quite that apoplectic.
But there are rumblings in their ranks about whether Obama's campaign has been aggressive enough coming out of the debate, particularly in accusing Romney of lying about his positions and abandoning the conservative policies he embraced during the GOP primary.
Several strategists said they were perplexed that the campaign, nearing $1 billion in fundraising, wasn't churning out television advertisements juxtaposing clips of Romney from earlier in the year with his comments during the debate. That's allowing Romney, they say, to get away with shifting to the center.
"I don't believe you ever let a charge go unanswered, so in that respect I wish they were more forceful," said Chuck Ardo, a former spokesman for ex-Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell.
Other Democrats fear the debate fallout is leading to softening support for the president among women, which has long been one of his strengths.
Romney is making a clear play for female voters coming out of the debate, sprinkling personal anecdotes into his speeches in an attempt to appear more empathetic. The Republican also said Tuesday said he would not pursue any abortion-related legislation if elected.
Obama's campaign, seeking to pacify some Democratic concerns, pounced on that comment. Officials cast Romney as a craven politician willing to hide positions that would be harmful to women in order to close the deal with voters.
"We're not saying he's changed his mind on these issues," said Stephanie Cutter, Obama's deputy campaign manager. "We're saying he's trying to cover up his beliefs."
While the campaign says its support among women is holding steady, Democratic pollster Stan Greenberg said his post-debate research found unmarried women in particular were not swayed by Obama's economic arguments. But they were open to Romney's approach.
"There was a positive response of these voters to Romney identifying with the middle class and their struggle and a very strong response to Romney's five-point economic plan," Greenberg said.
That marked a shift from last month, according to the pollster. Many unmarried women responded positively to Obama's message during the Democratic convention and were particularly offended by Romney's comments in a leaked fundraising video about 47 percent of voters who don't pay federal income tax and feel they are victims.
Obama never raised Romney's remarks during the debate, to the dismay of many Democrats.
Greenberg said the group he surveyed "needs the 47 percent attack. It needs the attack on who Romney identifies with and whom he doesn't get."
Obama's campaign on Tuesday ran its first ad since the debate incorporating Romney's comments on the 47 percent. The 30-second spot focused on seniors, arguing that some of the "victims" Romney referred to were seniors receiving Medicare.
Despite the Democratic worries, officials at Obama's Chicago campaign headquarters say there are no late strategy shifts in the works. And they insist their approach always accounted for the race tightening in the final weeks.
"We never anticipated winning battleground states by 10 points and can't imagine winning a ton of them by 5 points," said Ben LaBolt, Obama's campaign spokesman. "Our task is to lay out the economic choice every day for undecideds and to turn out our supporters."
For some Democrats, who sensed some in the party getting overconfident before the debate, a case of the nerves may not be such a bad thing.
"I'd rather get a jolt four weeks out than a week out when there's still time to do something about this," said Karen Finney, a Democratic strategist.


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" Manufacturer: Sunshine Kids / Type: Travel Bag "
* Prices may differ from that shown
We have a great practical bag called the Sunshine Kids Travel Bag. We paid around £12 for our bag and we bought it online. The bag is black and it's great for when traveling with children, be that a car, plane or train journey. It is very handy.
The bag is black and constructed from manmade materials that are very durable and robust. We've had our bag for ages now and it's still showing no signs of any wear or tear. The bag is very lightweight and easy to transport and comes with a handy carrying strap. The size of the bag is 24cm x 9cm x 21cm. I personally like the fact that packing or unpacking is made much easier by the fact that it has a zip at the bottom too. This is very handy.
We've used the bag for all sorts of stuff for our little lad and our own gear, from food to toys to changes of clothes and essential travel toiletries. The list is endless. It isn't a fancy bag by any means and contains no host of hidden pockets or pouches, it is simply a handy and essential bag for when traveling with kids as any parent knows they do take up a lot of space and it doesn't seem to get any better as they get older.
This has been an invaluable little bag for us as a family and I really recommend it.
NB, In order to appease some members and to make clear that we DO own this product, I will state here that although this bag is PRIMARILY meant to be used to transport the child's car seat, our son at 6 years old does NOT now sit in a car seat, he sits in his booster seat which we do not take out of the car. For this reason, I wish to make it clear in this review that my wife and I now use this bag for it's other function, i.e. transporting kids' belongings such as toys, toiletries, food, comics, colouring things, games, changes of clothes, etc etc. If we had thrown it out after it had outlived it's use as a car seat transporter it would not have been such good value for money. I would like to make it clear that this bag has OTHER functions and does not only get used as a car seat transporter, thus making it better value for money.
I ordered this from Amazon when I realised I'd need to transport David's car seat in my bro-in-law's dirty van when we moved house. David wasn't born yet (that was three days later!) but I'd unboxed the travel system in readiness for the new arrival - there was a tonne of snow on the ground on the day we moved house so there was no way I was driving otherwise it would have gone in my car! I was going to put it inside a couple of black bags as I didn't want the fabric marked before I'd even used the seat when I spotted the Car Seat Travel Bag on Amazon while browsing for last minute baby bits.
It's basically a large 'heavy duty' zip-up bag that you put your baby's car seat in on the (probably rare) occasions that the seat is travelling but baby isn't. It's made of a thin type of canvas, it's a good touch being made in black as it definitely doesn't show the muck up - and Adam's van really is filthy so I'm sure it picked some crud up in the journey from our old house to the new place!
The zip is smooth and opens out along three sides, this is perfect as car seats are bulky even with the handle folded down so it's a good design to have the bag open up so wide. Another good feature is the fact that this zip opens up along the bottom of the bag as that makes it so easy to slide the bag over the seat, flip the whole thing over and zip it up. Makes much more sense than struggling to physically put the seat inside the still-rigid bag. The zip pull is chunky and easy to grip, the one on mine actually broke after two uses but Mark popped another one on and since then it's been fine.
The bag is much bulkier than it looks in the piccie, especially when it has the car seat inside. In fact it's roomy enough for David's Mothercare travel system car seat (which itself is bulkier than average) and I can also pop his very basic Hauck stroller in there too. Admittedly the stroller is a very small one, but it's come in handy a couple of times to transport them both together. Now the bag is being used simply to store the car seat until I've finished with the base unit of the pram, David has been in a bigger car seat for a few weeks now so when I realised he'd completely outgrown the 'emergency' newborn seat I put it in here and that's where it'll stay until I pass the whole travel system on.
As for the quality, well, it's just about alright for it's current use of out-of-sight storage. It's been used on a couple of long distance trips and two short ones, one of these being to the hospital when Mark came to pick me and David up so it does have sentimental memories too! It's looking a bit battered despite it's functional blackness, the once white branding on the bag is now sludgy yellow and the corners definitely look like they're about to start fraying. I think it's pretty good that the bag's still going; considering the strange contours of my car seat and stroller I'm surprised a seam hasn't gone at least, actually the way I've forced extras into the bag sometimes I'm surprised a hole hasn't appeared! The fabric is waterproof so don't store damp items in it otherwise you might find they go mouldy, the bag isn't made of particularly thick material (it's a type of thin canvas) so is definitely sturdier than it looks.
The adjustable strap is useful, when the car seat is inside the bag it's too bulky for me to carry over my shoulder and I wish they'd also included a short handle as most travel style bags do. I had to physically carry it in my arms to get it to the car one day and it would have made life a lot easier to have been able to pick it up and carry it like a (stupidly bulky) bag.
When opened up to its full capacity the bag measures 24cm x 22cm x 9cm - I got these measurements off Amazon and it's gubbins as the bag stretches and contorts into the shape and dimensions of your car seat! As I said, my seat is quite bulky and padded with a rocking base and there is plenty of room left over - last time we went away I stuffed David's toys inside the curve of the seat and managed to fit them all in plus the stroller. I was quite impressed with myself!
When I bought the Sunshine Kids Travel Bag it was £15, which I think is a fab price for this very useful item, it has since dropped in price by £1 and is available from Amazon with free delivery.
The Sunshine Kids Car Seat Travel Bag is self-explanatory really. The bag is designed for things like car and plane journeys and is made from a tough and waterproof fabric and has plenty of space for all your travel essentials. The travel bag is available from Amazon.co.uk for £11.75 at the moment from an original RRP of £14.99. With such a spacious bag the possibilities are endless, and i like to use it for all kinds of travel. The lightweight construction is very tough and robust, with its fully adjustable shoulder strap. Although the shoulder strap is adjustable I still think Sunshine Kids could have gone a little further with the development of this part of the product. I feel that even some light padding would be better than the hard plastic adjusters and flimsy strap. If you are travelling light and not carrying the bag for long then this isn't an issue, but if you wish to carry it around a lot then it may become quite uncomfortable. A thicker and/or padded strap would overcome this issue.
There are very few features on this product, although the few it does have can come in quite handy. For starters you have the option to open the bottom of the bag to assist in apacking/unpacking, and the fastening on the zip means the bag wont come open on a journey. The dimensions are 24.4cm x 21.4cm x 8.8 cm, giving plenty of space. A downside to this is that if you don't wish to carry a great deal in it, it can look a bit stupid and awkward to carry.
Uses for this bag are mainly based around travel, whether it be for kids' toys during a long car journey, or liewise on a plane. Also, it would come in very handy for storing essentials in the car, such as a thick winter coat or car seat, keeping them clean and organised.
I have never had any rips or tears in the bag and the robust construction is living up to its billing. ith such a simple design and affordable price I don't think I would mind if it showed wear over time, but in just over a year it hasn't come to harm, so £11.75 is very much a worthwhile price. Bring Sunshine to your Kids with the Sunshine Kids Car Seat Travel Bag.


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I have a problem with internet going down after exactly one hour. After what I understand the pc is given a temporary IP address that is valid for one hour. When you should get a new one. But that don't work anymore.
The only way to get internet access is to restart the pc again.
I have tried install ZA again and I have changed my ADSL modem.
If I shuts down ZA it works fine.
It all started after my internet provider upgraded the software in my modem but now I have a new modem.
Any suggestions what it can be? Thanks.
I have Windows professionell XP, ADSL modem and ZA internet security suite.


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South African Pantry Staples
Build Your Own South African Pantry
Build Your Own South African Pantry
If you want to create your own "rainbow cuisine" from the comfort of your kitchen, start by incorporating a few of these South African staples into your pantry. The vast majority of these items are affordable and easy to come by online. Whereas meat and fresh vegetables make up the majority of dishes, these seven items will build the foundation of your South African pantry.
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Can I just get a plate at home depot? Is there anything I should watch out for like one has a coating of some type or something? Do you have a guess on price? Is it like 10 bucks or $100?I'll post pictures of my next pie soon, I'm going to bake it in about an hour. I think it will be better by using the broiler to heat the stone but turning it off for the first part of bake.*edit* Scott I've read tons of your post and seen the trips you've planned for people in NY, but I'm curious about your background. I haven't read that anywhere. Mind sharing?
Some pictures of your pies would be nice too, Scott! I'd just like to see the results of steel plate baking by the guy who recommends it.
So I went and got Better for Bread as discussed just to see the differences. I didn't keep all other things the same though, so it's not a perfect comparison. This time I didn't forget the oil and i upped the sugar by .5%. I also didn't overproof the dough, it was in much better shape. I like how this one turned out best so far in the experiments. Bottom browning was much better.
Hey thanks Scott for the feedback, you're really the only one who replies to my posts for some reason. I think the piece looked a little thicker than it was because I cut into a bubble. I did another bake today and I really liked it.
Scott's the guy you want replying to NY-style questions. Not much I can add to his expert advice. Your pie looks great!CL
Scott's the guy you want replying to NY-style questions. Not much I can add to his expert advice.
Ya you're right and thanks, I just know that about every person on here makes better pizza than me and I love good critique.


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2006 Subaru STI vs. 2006 Infiniti G35 coupe
fasterthanyou Posts: 131There are also people that are very satisfied with their Kia's and Suzuki's. They think they got the best bang for the buck and belong to a certain group( auto non-enthusiasts). Most likely there upgrade will be an Infinity not a BMW.
P.S. Could you tell me what impresses you in a G35?
mnrep2 Posts: 200upgrade will be an Infinity
It is spelled Infiniti. I already told you earlier why I like my G35x.
I really don't think that we have much more to talk about in this forum. See ya around.
nightvzn Posts: 232Actually, your main point ("Passion cannot be measured...not in numbers. There is no standard for it. You find it in a car or you don't. And you surely cannot find it in a G35.") is an opinion, but in this thread, I've stated mostly facts.
For example, I acknowledged that while the G35 is weaker on specific fronts when compared to other specific cars, for many people, it provides the right overall combination of strengths and "personal fit." This is a fact, not an opinion. If I simply said "the G35 is the best overall combination of strengths," period, that would be an opinion. But I didn't say that.
You're saying the G35 "fails" ("It tries to combine many of the characteristics presented and it completely fails in all." -- your words). That is an absolute statement -- an opinion masquerading as fact. I'm saying many buyers (many of whom have made a carefully considered decision) feel otherwise. That is a fact.
See the difference?
Opinions disguised as facts tend to get people angry and start unnecessarily prolonged arguments. Just look at the various responses you've seen in this thread.
The G has been a success because it put Infiniti back on the map. The G20 was a joke and the I35 was really no more than a nice Maxima, and FWD too.
It paved the way for the new models that look a lot better. It's beating BMW in some comparos, too, for $10 grand less.
cuty718 Posts: 11
rsholland Posts: 19,788Nope.
You've cross-posted that cartoon in about 20 threads.
We get it. You like that 'chop.
Now, get over it, because it was an early prediction as to what the Impreza might look like, and it turned out to be wrong. :P
And please, in the future, try to make your point in one or two threads.
pvdg35 Posts: 1you claimed you don't race your car; owned an RX-8 but afraid the G35 won't have enough power?...going from an RX-8 to a g35 you notice the power difference. Not to mention the AC is better too. I doubt the G35 "lacks power".
kdshapiro Posts: 5,751Wow, you revived a four year old thread.
This discussion has been closed.


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Peninsular Ranges > Cuyamaca Peak > Climber's Log
Cuyamaca Peak Climber's Log
[ Sign the Climber's Log ]
|Great view
|I can see my parents house (sort of) from the summit.
|Posted Apr 19, 2011 2:52 pm
Date Climbed: Feb 16, 2011
|Great sunset views to the West.
|Posted Mar 22, 2011 7:53 pm
|Dave Daly
|Ski Time
Date Climbed: Feb 20, 2011
|Great times with Deb skinning up to the top and then ski down....just before the masses destroyed the snow and rutted out the fire road. Nice snow though.
|Posted Mar 2, 2011 8:34 am
|Lookout Fire Road
Date Climbed: Feb 21, 2011
|Snow from bottom to top. Climbed after Stonewall & before Middle Peak. Nice boot packed path on the road just one day after a big, cold storm. Lots of people hiking.
|Posted Feb 22, 2011 10:47 am
|PowPow to da Summit
Date Climbed: Feb 20, 2011
|Took my honey on a XC ski trip in SD County. Skinned up and skied down on beautiful powder. Got snowed on a bit on the way up, a bit of wind, lost in a cloud but when the sun came out it was spectacular!
|Posted Feb 20, 2011 8:55 pm
|Via Fire Road
Date Climbed: Nov 26, 2010
|I hiked to the top with my brother-in-law and his son. There was ice on the trees and antenna which made for a surreal picture on top. You could hear the cracking of the ice as it melted and fell to the ground. I was only able to touch the top with my hand as the rock was covered with a thick veneer of ice.
|Posted Jan 14, 2011 11:02 am
|Snowy in 2008
Date Climbed: Feb 12, 2008
|Very few people along the fire road.
|Posted Jan 1, 2011 7:35 pm
|Sunset at Summit
Date Climbed: Feb 8, 2010
|Snow near the top, clouds covering nearby peaks, and sunset at the summit.
|Posted Oct 28, 2010 12:41 am
|Hiked with my baby
Date Climbed: May 16, 1992
|Literally hiked this with my 3 month old son on my chest. Beautiful views back in the day, but there is something wrong with a paved path to the top of any summit.
|Posted Sep 22, 2010 12:08 am
|Night climb
Date Climbed: Feb 8, 2010
|Started this hike in the afternoon from the campground. Took the fire road to the top. made it just in time for thet sunset of san diego county. Great views. nice night hike back down.
|Posted Mar 31, 2010 12:08 pm
|USE the Road!
Date Climbed: Jan 28, 2010
|First time skinning up Cuyamaca....had the place to myself. Was fairly icy and shot-out with deep bootprints, but I made it work. Beautiful sunny day, got myself a suntan and a great work-out! Feels kinda crazy to go XC skiing in San Diego County. :)
|Posted Jan 28, 2010 10:08 pm
|Avoid the road!
Date Climbed: Jan 4, 2010
|Took the paved road up. It was sad to look at all the burned trees. Being quite bored I fell asleep half the way up. Missed all the views from the top. On the way down we decided to take a trail that went to the saddle north of the peak. That was much more fun!
It became quite cold after the sun went down. Had to cry a bit so that my father would carry me in his arms. Much warmer this way!
|Posted Jan 21, 2010 6:59 pm
|Dennis Poulin
|Road Walk
Date Climbed: Mar 5, 2006
|Hiked up the road from the campground.
|Posted Dec 13, 2009 2:40 pm
|Pushing a stroller!
Date Climbed: Oct 19, 2009
|Brought my 4 and 2 year old up another P2K. Pics, map and report at http://www.willhiteweb.com/california_climbing/san_diego/cuyamaca_peak_road_422.htm
|Posted Oct 27, 2009 2:34 am
|Bob Bolton
|Nice hike
Date Climbed: Apr 9, 2007
|Hiked this one with my wife and her sister during a spring trip to visit family in SoCal.
|Posted Sep 20, 2009 12:17 am
|Had a good time
Date Climbed: May 23, 2009
|Really long but I enjoyed it a lot. (I am 6)
|Posted Aug 26, 2009 11:13 pm
|Hiked many times
|Great views from the top. Trip Report
|Posted Aug 26, 2009 12:09 pm
Date Climbed: May 23, 2009
|There was a rattlesnake on the road. There were lots of flowers and they smelled good. Climbed it with Papa, KK and Hope.
|Posted Aug 26, 2009 10:45 am
|Great Start to 2009 Climbing Year...
Date Climbed: Jan 31, 2009
|Took my girl Jeri on her first real hike...good for her that the asphalt trail is relatively easy for a beginner approach. Nice short day trip.
|Posted Feb 1, 2009 2:26 am
|Azalea Trail Loop
Date Climbed: Dec 21, 2008
|Perfect day for snowshoeing! Found at least 2' of snow to the top and totally warm temps shortly after sunrise. Had the place to myself for the trip up, but encountered the typically "trailer park trash" in jeans and sweatshirts on my descent and in the Paso Picacho Campground parking lot at end of trip. YUK! Give me some wine!!
|Posted Dec 21, 2008 9:01 pm


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I recognised acme and davorg in the crowd
I was sitting next to davorg, in the same row as acme, muttley space and a James from fotango (they have hot backups). bletch was in the row in front while zool, MBM and Tim Sweetman were elsewhere, IIRC. And I've probably missed a few.


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2008 Cadillac CTS
Sorry, I pay cash for my cars. I bow to your superior experience.
My only used car, the 74 Fleetwood I bought in college, had tilt/telescoping wheel, and you couldn't hear or feel the engine at idle. The 70's Eldorado had an extra door unlatcher for the rear seat passengers--an actually useful piece of one-up-manship.
Remember BMW thinks idrive is great engineering.
Wow.. where to begin...
The 2008 CTS *will be* 80-90% of a 5 series for 2/3 the price. That's going to be a cold, hard fact. And it's exactly the same strategy that Honda, Toyota, and now Hyundai used against GM for decades. Is it surprizing that GM might finally be learning how to play the game?
The CTS may be entry-level for Cadilllac in the U.S., but it's crystal clear that they have skipped the compact segment entirely. They sell the BTS in Europe, which *is* 3 series/C class sized. So your argument falls flat as a Swedish Pancake. Isn't the internet great? Takes seconds to pull up GM's European sites.
BMW and Mercedes are terrible in reliability because of one major thing. It costs 2-4 TIMES the money to fix the same repairs. Nothing you're going to say is going to change the fact that at the end of the year, you've not only repaired the car more times on average, but you paid blood to do so. 5-6 THOUSAND dollar transmissions. Brake jobs that cost over $1000. The list goes on and on...
Many of their current owners are less than enamoured and that's why Lexus, Accua, Infinity, and even Volvo are sucking sales away. Wealthier, conservative types which make up about 75%+ of their demographic prize being economical and reliable greatly. They all put being economical with their TIME even higher on the list. They want luxury and status but that's a good value as well. And having your 5 series in the shop every few months isn't anyone's idea of spending your time wisely - especially if you are missing work to do so.
A 0% Interest Cadillac CTS that was sold to you for $30,000 would be $500 per month for 60 months. The maintenance, were you a 15K mile per year person would be scary as would the repairs (although the 100K warranty obviates this for the most part.) BMW on the other hand is free maint for 50K miles and you only need to keep it 36 months, so you are always driving a new car.
I had to quote this because it's just such a badly constructed argument that it'd get you a D in any debate or logic class. We're comparing a CTS being *bought outright* via one of GMs great financing deals - with a 6 year/100K mile warranty versus a three year *lease* of a BMW with a 3 year/50K mile warranty that you yourself admit you want to toss as soon as the lease is over.
It's not apples to oranges. It's apples to a surfboard it's so far off.
Talk about penny-wise and pound foolish. The amount of money you're throwing away on the BMW is enough to buy you a whole new engine in the CTS and then some. Except - the engine is covered for the duration of *two* BMW leases so that's not going to happen.
When you are done with TWO BMW leases you own... nothing. The CTS, you paid the same and you have a 8-10K car you can resell. That buys a boatload of repairs or is a nice trade-in to drop $150-$200 a month off of your *next* car's payment.
Or, lease the CTS for $300 a month and pay half as much. And yes, I did see a $300 a month lease on a CTS - I'll even get you a picture if you don't believe me.
I saw a survey of German car owners last year. They rated German cars as most desirable, MB at the top of the heap. They also rated MB and VW as the worst ownership experience. (Of course, it didn't say how many actually owned foreign makes, so the statistics may be distorted, but there are other German car brands).
2 of the 3 MB's I've driven were the old unturboed diesels, which distorts my perception, but I really think snob appeal drives most of their sales.
I honestly enjoyed reading your posts but like plekto said the content of it isn't true. You slip in some smiles about how nice the CTS, is but at the same time you are reaching around with a knife stabbing it in the back.
The fact remains the Bimmer's, Audi's, Mercedes, you love and adore so much don't come close in reliability, warranty, cost of repairs. Gosh damn, the free maintence isn't free. I think you are smarter than that. It's built into the price. Nothing is free in the automobile industry. I agree the Germans and the Japanese, built superior quality cars in the 80's and 90's and had features you couldn't get on domestics. However we are living in 2007, and I don't see any must have features on the 08' Mercedes C class, BMW 335i/5 series, Audi A4/A6, Lexus IS 350, that Cadillac doesn't laready offer. The Mercedes C-class you love so much doesn't even have a better interior than the new Pontiac G8 that will be out this fall. If I did a comparo side by side
(readerreader, help me out with this one pal with a pic) you should say boy Rocky, you are right.
Mercedes new C-class lacks the luxury of a ELLPS if you ask me. What distinctive feature does the BMW 335i or 5 series has that the CTS, doesn't have ????? The i-drive ? I'll pass !!!!!!!! The 335i also has standard vinyl/pleather seats which is a joke.
The CTS, has enviromental friendly ventilated seats. Only the Lexus IS 350 to the best of my knowledge has that feature. The CTS, by far has the most upscale interior of the ELLPS. The only one that comes close in luxury is the IS350, but I can even find cost cutting inside that vehical. One example is the faux metal on the sport suspension model on the IS 350. I also find it amusing you have to either be a kid or a midget to fit in the rear passenger compartment Audi, might offer a great interior but the color of the wood and design don't go hand and hand IMHO. The Audi, also lacks the neccessary performance to be a ELLPS sedan. you have to drop over $50 large ones to get a S4 and even at that price level it lacks the features of the CTS. The Acura TL, was gadget filled back in 2004 but 3 years later it's gadgets are found on most other cars. The 2009' TL, could raise the bar once again. You also mentioned the other brands will have new cars out when the 08' CTS hits the market....WHAT ????? The 335i just came out this fall, the Mercedes C class will be out next fall and as we've seen it's not in the same league as the 08' CTS, the Lexus IS 350 came out in 2006 and I've seen no plans for it except for a IS-F 500 model that will get it's [non-permissible content removed] whipped by the 09' 550-600 hp. CTS-V, Audi A4 came out new for 06' and the G35 just came out this last fall. I don't see how you can justify how the 08' will be outdated when released this fall ???? :confuse:
If anything all the others will be outdated when the CTS, comes out this fall. I'd like to know what features your beloved Germans have over the CTS ????? Are you going to boast about how that plastic arm pushes the seat belt forward for the 335i driver ? :P Geeez.... :confuse:
So when you factor in warranty, reliability, quality, gadgetology, fuel economy w/(regular gasoline) you can't find a better ELLPS sedan on the market for the money IMHO. I think the projected 70+K annual sales will be the judge.
You are way off base by saying the '08 CTS just caaught up to 2004 European cars. That is a complete lie. If the CTS was available in 2004 it would've been head an shoulders above the competition. The current 3 series wasnt even out and the "uplevel" engine for the last generation 328 was a 225hp I-6. There are tons of features available on the 2006 3 series and '07 G35 that werent available on the old cars. The last gen G35's interior was a joke and the G35 offered great value, but little in the way of class exclusive features. You are giving the Europeans way too much credit and are confusing their current offerings with their offerings of 4 years back. The CTS is wholly competitive with every recently introduced entry luxury sedan, including the 2008 C class. It is way beyong playing catch up with 4 year old models.
I hope you are correct.
Again, I am planning on placing the CTS on my list -- but try as it might it is unlikely to show up over on the LPS board here on edmunds. It is unlikely to show up being tested against a BMW 5; yet, if it is, it will be one of those comparos that arise from time to time that tests two vehicles that are not generally considered in the same class. A test including the other entry level contestants is likely.
Even a test that includes a Toyota Avalon is certainly within the realm of possibility.
The entire point of discussing the new 2005 CTS badged as a 2008 is to simultaneously compliment and critique Cadillac. I applaud the evidence that suggests Cadillac is or has already gotten the message.
I am somewhat perplexed why additional differentiators weren't engineered into the car. It will differentiate itself on looks and price, I guess. Its announced features and content bring it to par -- but the other guys will either refresh or replace within one MY or concurrent with the CTS's coming to market.
Well equipped the CTS will climb to the mid to high forties? I say this based on the STS, which comes on with an attractive price but requires (apparently) the addition of 5 figures worth of options to be performance competitive with a 5 series.
The BMW 5 series is the car that Cadillac trots out in Car and Driver's editor for a day affairs. I have been lucky enough to participate and here is what happens. A base automatic equipped BMW 5 series is pitted against an STS optioned to the point that it has a sport suspension, magnaride, plus sized wheels and tires and UHP tires.
The BMW, again a base model, is equipped with all season tires and wheels that are 1" smaller and without sport package. Both cars have navigation systems and leather interiors, etc.
The Cadillac STS V6 is put through its paces then up next same thing with the BMW. After doing this routine 4 times, I concluded that the Cadillac performed better. The Cadillac and the BMW were comparable in price (MSRP.)
Next up, go on line and configure both cars then press the finance button. The BMW was less money per month, by far, and the maintenance was "included" in the price.
On the other side of the race track, the CTS, similarly equipped (up scale in the performance bits) is being put through its paces against a Lexus ES. Again price parity is reached and the CTS outperforms the Lexus.
The pricing here at MSRP is, again, close. The leasing equation favors the Lexus. Lexus sells some 400,000 cars annually, over 75% of them here. They are very good at figuring residual and hence they can charge less for their cars in the way most folks acquire them.
On another point somewhere above, why would you pay cash for a car that can be had for 0% financing for up to 72 months? And the argument that you have something at the end of the term is true, but it is the TCO that needs to be evaluated to determine if what you have at the end of the lease will have saved you money. And, you will have to determine the opportunity cost of NOT always having a car less than 4 MY old.
There are reasons to lease and I'd be the first to admit it isn't for everyone. But the fact that these entry level and LPS level cars are, in the majority, leased is just that a fact. The reasons may well be sub-venting by the mfgr -- but just like 0% financing, who cares if it can lower YOUR TCO?
The new CTS may or may not end up on someone's shopping list alongside a BMW 5 or Mercedes E or Audi A6 or Lexus GS or Infiniti M, etc. If that is true, I would suspect the shopper would simply wander across the showroom floor to see what the STS can offer.
I hope your final statement: "for the money," is accurate. And if Cadillac sub-vents the lease or discounts or whatever they need to do to improve the value proposition, you will probably be proven to be correct.
I think we are actually more in violent agreement than in disagreement.
The key area where we disagree is in thinking the CTS will be pitted agains the BMW 5, Mercedes E and the rest of the LPS usual suspects.
It's not Timex vs Rolex, but it isn't Rolex vs Rolex by a long shot. Perhaps in keeping the theme, it is Tissot vs Rolex. They both keep time, but one shopping for a Rolex is probably not likely to go for the Tissot instead even though it keeps time as well as the more expensive piece.
If the CTS is able to rival my A6 or the then current BMW 5, I will applaud it. I seriously doubt that either of these Germans are too concerned about the CTS eating into their middle child's sales.
Now, the CTS vs a 335 or an A4, that may give these guys some concern -- for in its class the CTS (on paper at least) appears to be "more." To me, it also appears that it might be a bit pricey when it comes down to the "normal" way these things are acquired.
I can't wait to test this new Cadillac -- I want to want one -- no really, I do. :surprise:
I said that the upcoming CTS will rise to be on par with the 2005 versions of the LPS cars. The thread here is that some folks think the CTS will compete against the LPS cars and at present I think it will be classed with the entry level lux perf cars like the 3, A4, etc.
If a 2008 CTS was available in 2004 it would have been head and shoulders above its direct competition, the Bimmer 3, the Audi A4, the Mercedes E, the Infiniti G, etc -- I agree.
The premise is that the 2008 CTS has adopted the features of the 2005 era LPS cars and that that somehow gives it the street creds to compete with the 2008 BMW 5, Audi A6, and so on.
My contention is the new CTS leapfrogged itself and is coming to market with 2005 era LPS content. I did not suggest, or if I did I retract it, that the 2008 CTS innovated features from 2004-2005 engineered entry level lux performance cars. It has taken features and content from the LPS cars of that vintage.
It has broken no new ground that would suggest it, with this transformation, can now compete with the LPS cars such as the 5. Other than roominess, it just doesn't have enough to differentiate it from the last generation of LPS cars.
It, hopefully for Cadillac, will have enough content to be seen on-par with the then new B8 A4 and the updated 335i and AWD version. The new G35 is already here and will, as usual, keep raising the bar too.
Cadillac leapfrogs itself, good. Cadillac may well be leapfrogged within one MY by the other guys (before it is ready or able to leap again) -- it keeps playing a game of catch up.
However, therefore, notwithstanding -- it IS catching up. :shades:
"Its announced features and content bring it to par -- but the other guys will either refresh or replace within one MY or concurrent with the CTS's coming to market. "
Wrong. The C class is not even out yet, the IS was new for 2006, the G35 was new for 2007 and the 3 series was JUST improved for 2007 with the 300hp engine. The CTS' competition is very new and dont look for major updates soon.
"I say this based on the STS, which comes on with an attractive price but requires (apparently) the addition of 5 figures worth of options to be performance competitive with a 5 series. "
Incorrect. Go to Caddy's website and compare a base STS V6 or V8 with a 5 series and e class. YOu will see that the STS has just as much standard equipment as both cars and costs less. An optioned up STS is far cheaper than a loaded 5 series or E class.
"A base automatic equipped BMW 5 series is pitted against an STS optioned to the point that it has a sport suspension, magnaride, plus sized wheels and tires and UHP tires. "
Wrong again. Either your test was different from the one I attended or you are mistaken. The STS at our event was a V6 with 17" wheels (meaning no sport package) and it was compared to a 530 with 17" wheels. The cars were comparably equipped. Cadillac isnt stupid enough to try and over equip their car. Next you'll be telling me the STS had a V8 while the BMW had a 6. The CTS at our event was a non sport model with 16" wheels and the 255hp engine. It was not unfairly equipped to battle the Es330 in any way.
The CTS is large enough to be compared to the 535 or E350. That is the bottom line. Pricewise the CTS is competition for the 3 and C but it's larger than both cars. The new CTS is nice enough to be compared with the 6 cylinder versions of the A6, E and 5 series.
R&T compared the old car to the 530, A6, S80, e320 and 300 a few years back and the CTS came in first. If you are doing things according to size and power the CTS can be compared to midsize European luxury cars.
"If the CTS is able to rival my A6 or the then current BMW 5, I will applaud it. I seriously doubt that either of these Germans are too concerned about the CTS eating into their middle child's sales. "
The A6 isnt a huge seller. Audi should be gunning for CTS sales, not vice versa. I dont think Cadillac even worries about Audi when designing cars except to benchmark their interiors. In terms of sales, Audi isnt even on Caddy's radar.
The Cadillac STS V6 RWD we had had 18" wheels and was optioned with a sport suspension.
Indeed, the test of the two cars I attended pitted a then LY 530 (225HP) with a then CY STS V6 (255HP.) This is the only way the Cadillac was able to beat the 530.
Not knowing the day was arguably rigged in Cadillac's favor, I asked my co-driver what we were driving: he answered every question I asked, but never would volunteer anything beyond what I asked.
We were driving a NEW 2005 BMW 530i with 17" wheels and All Season H rated tires. We were then driving a NEW 2006 STS V6 with 18" wheels and summer only ultra high performance tires and the Cadillac had a sports package and the BMW had its standard suspension.
There were BMW owners in the car with me that simply couldn't figure out why the Cadillac seemed so strong -- until, at least, our instructor answered our pointed questions.
At the event we attended, it wasn't until the very end when we were guided to a tent for our "parting gifts" that it hit us that this was a Cadillac event (the tent had three new Cadillacs in it and we were given a Cadillac ball cap and a tote that had the wreath and crest on it.)
The point in any case is that the test pitted the STS against the BMW 5, the CTS was pitted against a Lexus ES (the fancy Camry.)
Nothing I am saying takes away from my impression of the Cadillacs. I was impressed. The issue I am having is that the Cadillacs at that time seem to require a special advantage to win. Then the fact that they were quoted as being similarly priced (at MSRP) yet the BMW's are lower on a lease (per month), makes the Cadillacs, good as they are, a generation behind the competition.
The STS's here in river city are often discounted as much as $9,000 off MSRP -- which when you factor in the "value" proposition probably does make them more attractive to a BMW customer who is "on the bubble."
The C WILL be out within one MY of the new CTS. A new A4 will be out within one MY of the new CTS. A freshening and updating of the BMW will happen within one MY, too. Most likely the Bimmer's interior will be given a shot of vitamin B12 and BMW's interiors will (finally) graduate out of the stoic class. The materials in the new Cadillac may start out as superior to the competition, but -- within one MY -- either the new models or the "refreshening" of the recently brought to market competition will, if history is any guide, surpass the Cadillac.
I am happy to go back and forth and back and forth during this rather engaging discussion -- but what got me started down a path that you (all) must think is intentionally negative was the statement that the CTS competes with the BMW 5 and other LPS cars (LPS as defined here by edmunds.)
I believe the Audi A4, BMW 3 and Mercedes C ARE on Cadillac's radar -- big time.
So, if we want to "discuss, argue or advance a point or two" comparing the CTS to the other ELLPS cars that is ok by me. If we, conversely, want to discuss the merits of classifying this new (or current gen) CTS as an LPS car, that, too is ok with me.
The STS with the options that make it competitive PERFORMANCE wise with the other LPS cars IS over $60,000. It is not a high value prop (without the aforementioned $9,000 discount.)
The CTS, the NEW CTS, I assume, likewise will have to be optioned out to at least the mid forties or higher and then, once again, it will butt heads with the NEW B8 A4, the (within one MY) refreshed 335, the incoming and new C class and the [minor] upgrades the G35 will most certainly bring for MY 2008.
The issues are "generation" and "TCO."
The Cadillac seems as if it will come out one generation behind the other guys and have a similar TCO when one considers the residual (which affects both the lease payment and the cash value of the car if bought outright.)
One more time -- I am a bit disappointed that the car seems to be coming out a step behind; but, regardless it is a huge step forward and does indicate that Cadillac is closing the gap.
To command the price, however, I contend it will have to fully close the gap and perhaps pull just slightly ahead of the other guys.
The CTS in its 5 year history has not shown any proclivity to do that. There is reason for hope -- but, at this moment, there isn't much evidence it will, this time around, go the distance.
I'd get one for $9,000 off though (or whatever would translate, perhaps $5,000 or $6,000 off.) :surprise:
Now I do know we are talking HERE on this forum about the UPCOMING CTS. And, I don't intend (nor intended previously) to pile on the CTS. But Cadillac did begin marketing this car in 2003 as their answer to the Audi A4, BMW 3 series, etc. Perhaps there was HOPE back during the early years that the CTS would be compared to the BMW 5's and the Audi A6's and the Mercedes E's. By some accounts this HOPE didn't float.
As recently as 2006, comments pertaining to the CTS (not the CTS-V which is not being addressed here, by any of us) were often not complimentary.
"The company still may have quality control problems and none so blatant on the exterior as the rippled orange-peel texture of our test vehicle's "premium" red paint. Hyundais have better paint jobs. The shoddy finish on the model we tested might be an anomaly — if not, Cadillac is remiss in thinking it can compete with European luxury brands."
Forbes Magazine
Forbes (and others) went on to say: "Certain cars just feel right from the moment you slip into the driver's seat — pedals, steering wheel, shifter and outward visibility all exactly as you'd want them. The CTS is not one of these vehicles. . .[and] the fit and finish are shoddy in spots."
Of course at the same time Audi and Lexus interiors were claimed to be "jewel-like." And Audi in particular was said to be the standard by which automobile interiors should be judged.
Those who write this stuff for a living classify the CTS's competitors as follows (the current one, and you can bet initially even the new one will be compared thusly):
Acura TSX
Audi A4
BMW 3 Series
Chrysler 300C
Saab 9-3
Volvo S60
In a Car and Driver 8 car comparo, the CTS finished 6th -- again this is the current car, there are only teasers for the upcoming vehicle -- thus far not even any preview tests.
Highs: Distinctive machete-hewn styling, "GM" and "handling" are an oxymoron no longer, solid torque, lustrous paint.
Lows: Exhaust drone, blurry controls, dime-store dash; a generation behind the competition.
The Verdict: An extended teaser for the next CTS.
A key point made seems to echo what I have been bemoaning in my posts here -- the CTS NOW is a generation behind the competition and the upcoming CTS only gains parity if one assumes the competition will NOT advance, not move forward.
This suggests [to me] that Cadillac has produced a fine car that will still not make it into the top 5 without some serious discounting. Nothing even comes close to suggesting it will compete head on with a 2008 BMW 5 series (other than in the category called "roominess.")
None of these reviews and previews dissuade me from considering the CTS, I do like the looks of it, the interior has been (based on the pictures) transformed to "almost jewel like," and the 258 and 300 HP engines promise to be very entertaining coupled to their new 6 speed auto OR manual. The addition of AWD, seemingly the current "price of admission" too is welcome.
I just wonder if all this is just "almost" enough to qualify the CTS as simply moving closer to the competition but not YET able to remain even or pull ahead of the competition.
"GM vehicles aren't bashful about their budget engineering, and the CTS is no exception. The dash and door-trim plastics share an excessively deep industrial-pattern grain with disposable cameras. Only the center radio console with its rubbery matte finish feels fancy. Fuzzy-lint cloth lines the trunk, and a plain plastic acoustic cover hides the engine with no more verve than a Tupperware lid.
Although pricier than the Acura, Infiniti, and Saab, the CTS had the fewest number of features, lacking navigation (the Acura and the Saab have it), a sunroof, a power passenger seat, and a telescoping steering column — all of which are found in the other cars. Flat, formless seats gave rise to griping in both the back and front chambers as drivers and passengers slid about. A step-on emergency brake was deemed decidedly unsporty. We appreciated the steering-wheel radio controls but would have preferred a simple "seek" button to four individual preset buttons."
Car and Driver
Yikes! :confuse:
A tease for the 2008 CTS, indeed!
http://www.askaprice.com/torque-article.asp?article=New_Cadillac_BLS_-__the_key_- - to_Europe?&item=1369
But the key model to their survival in Europe is the new BLS 'premium mid-sized saloon, designed in Europe and built in Europe at Trollhattan, Sweden, GM's Saab factory. The BLS fits into the GM's European range above the Saab and its main competitors will be the BMW 3-Series, Mercedes C-Class, Audi A4 and Lexus IS 220/250.
This is at least how GM sees it. BTS-C/3/A4 class. They have decided(and wisely, IMO), to skip the small entry-level sport sedan market in the U.S. and go for what most buyers seem to want - a midsize version. The new CTS is aimed as a cheaper alternative to an E-Class, A6, or BMW 5.
But it keeps getting placed aginst smaller, more agile, and less expensive compact cars because all the editors generally see is "lowest cost model=smallest/entry level car". With predictable results. There's no way even a 5 series will beat a 3 series in a handling test, afterall.
the weakesst engine in the STS was the 3.6L 255hp engine. It makes no sense to say it was unfair to compare it to the weaker 530 because it's not Cadillac's problem that the 530 only had 225hp. Your argument makes no sense at all. What was Cadillac supposed to do? weaken the engine on the STS to make it fair? Just so you know, the STS doesnt have a true sport package like BMW does. YOu can get better tires and larger wheels but the suspension is unchanged. BMW sport packages give you larger wheels, lower profile rubber, stiffer suspensions and better seats. Even if the STS had the 18s it didnt have a sport suspension that would give it a notable advantage over the 530.
as for pricing, I do not understand how you expected Cadillac to give you lease prices for the cars in questions. It is normal practice to compare MSRPs at comparison events because that's what makes sense. To say the BMW is really "cheaper" because lower lease rates are available is crazy. The BMW is not cheaper and lease rates are highly variable. The STS is cheaper even without special incentives, just price it out for yourself if you dont believe me.
"The STS with the options that make it competitive PERFORMANCE wise with the other LPS cars IS over $60,000. It is not a high value prop (without the aforementioned $9,000 discount.) "
WHat are you talking about? The 5 series and E class do not come with sport packages standard. Why are you saying the STS needs to cost over $60k to be competitive? That is your opinion, not a fact and it makes no sense. The STS without the luxury performance package is wholly competitive with a standard 5 series or E class.
"The CTS, the NEW CTS, I assume, likewise will have to be optioned out to at least the mid forties or higher and then, once again, it will butt heads with the NEW B8 A4, the (within one MY) refreshed 335, the incoming and new C class and the [minor] upgrades the G35 will most certainly bring for MY 2008."
what in the world makes you think the G35 or any other brand new car would be upgraded the year after its introduction? we already know the CTS will be priced similarly to the cars you mentioned but I dont get your point. Are you saying it doesn deserve to be as expensive as those cars? I dont agree. The CTS isnt a generation behind anything based on styling, hp, features or interior design. Where are you coming from with this argument? Since it's a year behind the G35 and coming to the market the same year as the C class you feel it's a generation behind. I dont get that at all. The IS, 330, CTS, G35 and C class will all be in the same generation. The fact that the G and IS beat the CTS to market by 1-2 years doesnt mean they are in a completely different generation. The G35 came out as a 2003 model as did the CTS. The G35 lasted 4 years and the CTS lasted 5 years. The new G35 and the '08 CTS are the SAME generation. What is hard to understand about that?
the weakesst engine in the STS was the 3.6L 255hp engine. It makes no sense to say it was unfair to compare it to the weaker 530 because it's not Cadillac's problem that the 530 only had 225hp. Your argument makes no sense at all. What was Cadillac supposed to do? weaken the engine on the STS to make it fair? Just so you know, the STS doesnt have a true sport package like BMW does. YOu can get better tires and larger wheels but the suspension is unchanged. BMW sport packages give you larger wheels, lower profile rubber, stiffer suspensions and better seats. Even if the STS had the 18s it didnt have a sport suspension that would give it a notable advantage over the 530.
as for pricing, I do not understand how you expected Cadillac to give you lease prices for the cars in questions. It is normal practice to compare MSRPs at comparison events because that's what makes sense. To say the BMW is really "cheaper" because lower lease rates are available is crazy. The BMW is not cheaper and lease rates are highly variable. The STS is cheaper even without special incentives, just price it out for yourself if you dont believe me.
"The STS with the options that make it competitive PERFORMANCE wise with the other LPS cars IS over $60,000. It is not a high value prop (without the aforementioned $9,000 discount.) "
WHat are you talking about? The 5 series and E class do not come with sport packages standard. Why are you saying the STS needs to cost over $60k to be competitive? That is your opinion, not a fact and it makes no sense. The STS without the luxury performance package is wholly competitive with a standard 5 series or E class.
"The CTS, the NEW CTS, I assume, likewise will have to be optioned out to at least the mid forties or higher and then, once again, it will butt heads with the NEW B8 A4, the (within one MY) refreshed 335, the incoming and new C class and the [minor] upgrades the G35 will most certainly bring for MY 2008."
what in the world makes you think the G35 or any other brand new car would be upgraded the year after its introduction? we already know the CTS will be priced similarly to the cars you mentioned but I dont get your point. Are you saying it doesn deserve to be as expensive as those cars? I dont agree. The CTS isnt a generation behind anything based on styling, hp, features or interior design. Where are you coming from with this argument? Since it's a year behind the G35 and coming to the market the same year as the C class you feel it's a generation behind. I dont get that at all. The IS, 330, CTS, G35 and C class will all be in the same generation. The fact that the G and IS beat the CTS to market by 1-2 years doesnt mean they are in a completely different generation. The G35 came out as a 2003 model as did the CTS. The G35 lasted 4 years and the CTS lasted 5 years. The new G35 and the '08 CTS are the SAME generation. What is hard to understand about that?
Give him a break. I think it's that he's in denial that Cadillac could be making a better 5-series than BMW soon.
"the weakesst engine in the STS was the 3.6L 255hp engine. It makes no sense to say it was unfair to compare it to the weaker 530 because it's not Cadillac's problem that the 530 only had 225hp. Your argument makes no sense at all. What was Cadillac supposed to do? weaken the engine on the STS to make it fair?"
No, Cadillac pitted a 2005 530 against a 2006 STS. They should have pitted a 2006 530 (@ 255HP at the time) against the 2006 STS.
Yes I think they could and hopefully they will, soon. There is no evidence that the upcoming CTS will even be equal to a 2008 BMW 5 series. Now, of course, if we want to compare the 2008 CTS to the 2005 or 2006 5, that is a different animal.
Someone wrote here that they could buy a CTS for less than they could lease a 5.
I did post a "how is that possible" reply using 0% interest as a determining factor. The rebuttal seemed to suggest my logic was faulty for comparing the leasing of one to the buying of another.
The statement made suggested they could BUY a CTS for less money than one could LEASE a 5 for.
I assumed the person meant the monthly payment and/or the sum of the monthly payments over a similar time period.
A $36,000 CTS at 0% interest for 36 months is $1,000 per month. A $50,000+ 5 can be leased for ~ $599 - $699 (I've seen them as low as $579) for 36 months, 45K miles and no "additional" monies for maintenance.
My point was not to suggest folks (all folks) should lease.
My answer to the statement was intended to solicit an explanation as to how one could buy a "comparable" CTS for a comparable time period for less money than one could lease a 5. I didn't post the original assertion. I merely did some quick calculations based on number of months divided into the assumed selling price of the car.
A CTS as noted above would be $1000 per month for 36 months, if the 5 was $600 per month, the total out of pocket at the end of the term would be $21,600. $21,600 vs $36,000 out of pocket. In month 37 neither person would have any payments and only one of the people would have a car. But, the person with no car could continue to lease a $600 per month vehicle for another 24 months before reaching $36,000 out of pocket.
The CTS at 60 months is worth something, I agree.
The person who leased for 60 months @ $600 per month would in month 61 have "nothing to show for his payments." The person who paid $1,000 per month for the first 36 months (assuming 15K miles per year) will then have a car with 75,000 miles on it. I would assume the car would have needed at least one new set of tires and other wear and tear items replaced too.
I never intended to suggest someone who leases would buy a Cadillac or vice versa the BMW.
I would, normally, have put the lease of one against the lease of the other. And, if possible, I would have configured the cars similarly. The fact that a strippie CTS may be leased for $299 or $399 is nice to know. Configure the two more closely and then again run the numbers was my suggestion.
The German (and I am not here shilling for BMW, I do not own a BMW -- my wife does, though) has a very high residual that makes its lease payments belie its MSRP.
Moreover, my entire thesis has been that up to now (and for all I know even when the new 2008 CTS comes to market), the CTS has not been considered in the same product class as the LPS cars (Acura RL, Audi A6, BMW 5, Cadillac STS, Infiniti M, Lexus G and Mercedes E.)
Comparing the CTS to the cars above its class -- until we know more that would permit such a comparison -- is akin to the Hyundai claims that their flagship is "roomier" than a BMW 7 series. Most folks would not accept the notion that the Hyundai was a competitor to the BMW simply based on its interior volume, trunk space or other measurements of cubic feet.
Folks like me WILL give a long hard look at the new CTS -- I drag around an empty A6 95% of the time, I want to "down class and down size" somewhat. The new CTS seems like a good way to go to what might be a competitor for a BMW 4 series is such a thing existed.
BMW did refresh the 330i one year after bringing it to market -- there is no 330i in fact any more -- the 330i was replaced with the 335i, and it will soon be joined by the 335xi; and each MY will demonstrate BMW's recognition that the market expects the time between refreshes to be compressed from this point forward.
On another subject (to rebut) I'm not the originator of the idea that the CTS is a generation behind (although I did arrive at that conclusion before I knew Car and Driver -- to name one -- had said that two years ago.)
And, in fact, I said that I applaud the huge leap forward the new CTS appears to represent; yet, I also decried the fact that it, at best, arrives "on par" with a one generation old LPS car. It doesn't mean I wouldn't get one -- it means I suspect it will be within its first MY heavily subsidized when it is compared with the Audi, BMW, etc etc etc I mentioned in previous posts. It is not pulling ahead of the other guys it is simply temporarily pulling alongside the other ELLPS cars. The true LPS cars will, I assume, again pull forward, pull away from the ELLPS cars. They have to.
Performance is a different matter -- sure a shorter wheelbase "fill in the blank" from (pick one) BMW can out handle a longer wheelbase BMW, etc. I would assume the new CTS, therefore will not perform (in the handling dept) as well as its class stablemates, the A4, 3, C, G, IS, etc.
The CTS will be compared with a refreshed Chrysler 300 -- and [non-permissible content removed] for tat the Chrysler 300C will probably offer a less refined but nonetheless compelling alternative for similar bucks. The Avalon too may show up in comparos.
Where the CTS is pitted against the LPS crowd is typically when it is the CTS-V going head to head with a BMW M5 or an Audi S4. Often the CTS-V acquits itself nicely. Especially when the BMW is, what, $30,000 more?
I have, hopefully responded to several of the points made in reply to some of my statements.
If the CTS for 2008 is repeatedly compared to/with a BMW 5 series it will only help Cadillac. I hope you are correct. I want the home team to win one. I suspect it might win if price is weighted heavily, I suspect it will lose, however, on other counts of Luxury and Performance against almost any one of the LPS crowd, including its own sibling the STS.
The CTS will remain this time around in the ELLPS class -- I don't see anything at all wrong or demeaning about that.
Maybe some folks here do -- and that, too, is fine by me. :surprise:
What a load of bull.
If you notice, I was comparing buying ONE CTS versus leasing two BMWs. Now, that begs the question - how long for the term on the GM?
Obviosuly you'd buy the Cadillac for 60 months. Yes, you'd be paying for another two years, but my point was that you could buy the GM for less than the two leases on the BMWs would cost because of the GM waranty and financing.
Figure 30,000 after rebates(doable, actually) and typical financing. $600 a month for 60 months, with maybe $2000 down.(let's keep the math simple here for now). After 36 months, your residual would be the same as what it's worth, or pretty close, so you could very well trade it in if you wanted, at the same time as the BMW.
This is why I said it costs the same. At three years, it's a wash, or close to it. Well, the GM also doesn't have wear and tear or mileage deductions like the BMW will. Returning cars after a lease can be a real nightmare for a luxury car. The CTS you just trade in for 8-10K and that's it. No fine print - same monthly payment, or really close to it(less if you get the GM 2.9% financing or simmilar)
But obviously you pay the extra two years and come out way ahead. Why not? The warranty is still there and in the end you end up a year ahead time-wise and have a car worth a nice amount, since it *still* will have some of the original warranty after 5 years.
Now, a 2006 - total different story, but GM's new warranty and their silly rebates combine to make for a very attractive deal.
P.S. You'll never see a BMW going for even close to $300 a month on a lease. If you want to compare *leases*, GM wins by a five miles. So the GM has a few things you have to cover. It's not going to be more than a few hundred dollars - compared to the BMW's $3-4000 more in payments every year.
The CTS has been characterized as "last generation." I noted that the CTS has adopted current generation (i.e., 2005 vintage) LPS content. I lamented that the CTS as a 2008 will come to the market with 2005 content.
The entire thread of the recent posts jumps between LPS and ELLPS cars for the reason that some folks contend the CTS is or will be with the 2008 car ushered in to the LPS class. Most of what y'all write about the CTS I agree with -- I only do not agree that the CTS is an LPS car NOW and I do not think it will somehow magically become an LPS car when the new version comes out.
We can continue to disagree on this latter part, it is OK with me. I'd rather get down to either what will make this new CTS a great ELLPS car OR what it would take to make it a legitimate LPS car able to stand alongside the STS in the LPS club.
On the STS BMW 530 test drive
I think what made this a "rigged" or unfair comparison was that Cadillac sent an STS MY 2006 and pitted it against a BMW 530 MY 2005.
I never suggested Cadillac should dumb down their car, only that if they wanted to demonstrate their car on a level playing field, they should have put MY to MY and that both MY's should be the same.
At this point, there is no current MY BMW 330. If a company wanted to demonstrate their latest and greatest and provide the buyer with the most objective comparison, one would assume that a 2007 CTS with all the options would be pitted against a 2007 BMW 335 similarly equipped.
MSRP considerations
Of course the info provided by reviewers would have to include MSRP to MSRP not a leasing program to MSRP discussion that, in the case of the lease, can and does change frequently.
If GM wants to sub vent the lease on the CTS and I am in the market, you can bet I'll be checking out the mo pay NOT the MSRP.
The phrase "buy what appreciates, rent what depreciates" only rings true if the cost of money is NOT below market (such as a 0% deal for 60 months.) In other market conditions, residual and cost of money needs to be considered.
If GM will sell / lease a new CTS for $299 or $399 with all the content available or expected in an LPS vehicle, they will certainly lure customers.
The cars at these prices typically do not include navigation systems and all the premium content I had assumed would be expected by an LPS buyer -- even one looking for a 2/3rds priced LPS.
Last Gen?
The CTS according to some professional reviewers (and me, even though I am an amateur) IS a generation behind its direct competition. The 2008 CTS will catch up apparently. It does not move ahead of its competition (the ELLPS) and it almost certainly will remain a generation behind the current LPS incumbents' 2008 versions. Yet, so what? The CTS is not an LPS car, the A4 and G35, ditto -- these ELLPS cars, too, are likely to be a generation behind their LPS siblings. No harm no foul.
The CTS, I contend, needs to differentiate itself or move ahead of its rivals in order to regain the standard of the world designation it seems to be striving for.
And, if it comes to the market with "incentives" -- many will overlook its possible also-ran status. I probably would forgive it not leading the pack if it is priced attractively.
What makes anyone think the CTS is a direct rival to the LPS crowd? Thus far it seems its roominess is the attribute most often cited.
That Hyundai claiming to be the same size as the BMW 7 ought to be even more attractive if roominess determines car class in any substantial way.
But that IS silly. Remember the Ford that was advertised as being competitive with a Mercedes? Folks didn't really believe the Ford was a competitor to the Mercedes despite their similar appearance and size.
The new CTS, hopefully, will be the king of the ELLPS hill -- that would be a major step up from 6th place (out of 8); a triumph for Cadillac and GM and a great thing for the customer.
If I choose to shop the CTS against a legitimate LPS class member, there is certainly nothing wrong with that. If I believe the CTS is a better value than the LPS crowd, generally, again, no problem.
However, if I start discussing my CTS over on the LPS forum, I should not be surprised if I am told my CTS is not a member of the club.
At this point, the new B8 A4 will be my logical choice to compare the new CTS to. If I think the CTS is "almost" an A6 and it costs less, well, after all, perception is reality.
I will, however, get a dose of reality from time to time when I attempt to participate in LPS discussions as if I'm on equal footing.
Let's celebrate the new CTS for what it is, an American ELLPS car that has a good chance to move up the ladder.
Maybe it will be admitted into the LPS club next time.
For the time being, the CTS is the entry level Cadillac in the US, with a price range comparable to smaller foreign cars, to which many people want to compare it. The 2008 fixes all but two of my objections to the current model (smallish trunk and no cloth interior option), and it's even better looking but not as revolutionary as the original (it couldn't be, without divine intervention). The ugly headlights, busy black dash, and seat-mounted belts are gone. It has the only newish gizmo I really want, remote start.
The subtext of much of the recent discussion is "thang measurement" (cars as status symbols). I don't care if someone else's is bigger or smaller, I like this one better. The remaining two questions are: can I rationalize ~$35k for a mere car, and can I/should I wait for the wagon? Ok, that's 3.
Please stop with the hawg wash !!!!
You speak so much about generation behind and how the 08' CTS has 2005 content. Please start naming off important features found on the Acura TL, Infiniti G35, BMW 335i, Lexus IS 350, that aren't on the 08' CTS ???? PLEASE I'M ALL EARS.....Hell some of those models I mentioned like the Infiniti G35, 335i, came out in MY 2007. The IS 350 only came out in MY 06.
I think Plekto, is right and you have a personal problem with Cadillac whipping those Germans butts and you don't like it !!!!
jimbres Posts: 2,025Easy, Rocky. I've been reading Mark's posts for years. He has an unusual, think-out-loud style of writing that takes some getting used to, but he adds value to every discussion. Having him here will raise the level of conversation. I say that even though I don't buy into his views on leasing (he holds the Guiness record for number of Audis leased consecutively) or AWD (he seems to think that AWD is better even when the car is parked with the engine turned off). He wouldn't be here if the CTS didn't genuinely interest him. He's certainly not here to lob bombs.
One more thing. I've been a regular here at Edmunds for almost 9 years, & I've noticed that folks always get more worked up over not-yet-introduced cars than they do over cars that are actually in showrooms now. This seems to be a law of the universe. Maybe it's because when an argument gets started, it can't be settled in the usual ways: by taking a test drive or referring to a recent C&D or R&T road test. (Or maybe it's because these discussions attract an above-average number of 13-year-olds. Who knows?) So the discussion turns hot & silly & stays that way until a host steps in or the participants lose interest. Why fight over the interior trim quality (or lack of same) of a car that's months away from the showroom? It's absolutely pointless.
For the record: I'm a satisfied BMW (330i, sports package, stick) owner who's happy to see that the absurdly small number of RWD luxury sport sedans that can be had with manual transmissions is about to increase. I don't know if there's a CTS in my future -- I won't be in the market again until 2009 - but I like what I see & I hope it's a home run for GM.
I dont know anything about markcincinnati but I disagree that he has added anything to the discussion. He isnt impressed by the CTS relative to the competition and that is fine, but how many times do we have to read the same thing? We get it, the CTS is a generation behind the competition and is a lame attempt by Cadillac to lead the entry luxury sedan segment. He is getting repetative and annoying. If he feels the CTS isnt up to pay he doesnt not have to buy the car. Get a BMW 335 and call it a day.
I dont know who you are arguing with at this point. For pricing reasons alone the CTS is unlikely to be cross shopped with the 5 series and E class. It will be much cheaper and will most likely be competing with the compact luxury Europans and G35/TL. NO one here disputes this fact so I dont get your obsession with convincing us the CTS isnt a true midsize luxury sedan competitor. In terms of size, power and features it COULD be compared to a 535 or E350. It's that simple. Since it's in a different price class most buyers wont see the CTS as a 535 competitor but it's a realistic comparison based on the merits of both cars. You havent stated why this comparison wouldnt be valid. The CTS will have the space, features and power found in the 528/535 but will most often be cross shopped with the 3 series.
Also, you keep referring to this 6th place finish in C&D but the CTS was the 2nd oldest car in that test and thus finished 6th. As I already noted, it finished FIRST in a R&T comparison when it was newer vs the 530, 300, S80, A6, etc. YOu never responded to that. Any car that is near the end of it's lifecycle is bound to finish near the bottom of a comparion because it lacks power and features.
"Comparing the CTS to the cars above its class -- until we know more that would permit such a comparison -- is akin to the Hyundai claims that their flagship is "roomier" than a BMW 7 series. Most folks would not accept the notion that the Hyundai was a competitor to the BMW simply based on its interior volume, trunk space or other measurements of cubic feet. "
That statement is laughable. We are comparing the CTS to the 535, E350, etc. based on size, performance and luxury features. As someone stated, why dont you tell us what the car is lacking compared to those vehicles. We already know most people wont compare the CTS to those cars, but they wouldnt be crazy to do so. The Azera doesnt have half the features found on the 7 series and it's nowhere near the same class of vehicle. That analogy was poor.
The CTS according to some professional reviewers (and me, even though I am an amateur) IS a generation behind its direct competition. The 2008 CTS will catch up apparently. It does not move ahead of its competition (the ELLPS) and it almost certainly will remain a generation behind the current LPS incumbents' 2008 versions. Yet, so what? The CTS is not an LPS car, the A4 and G35, ditto -- these ELLPS cars, too, are likely to be a generation behind their LPS siblings. No harm no foul.
The CTS, I contend, needs to differentiate itself or move ahead of its rivals in order to regain the standard of the world designation it seems to be striving for.
The strategy of GM isn't to make a better car. They want to do what Toyota did to them 20 years ago. Build a comparable car that in no way stands out from the rest except in reliability and lower cost. It's a very smart plan, IMO. You get peolpe who are lokoing at the de-contented and plasticky E class now - they sure *will* cross-shop the new CTS, especially in the Midwest, where there is still a nagging voice in the back of their heads saying "buy American".
If the CTS consistently got 4th place out of 8 cars in every test for driving but was $10K less money - by far the least expensive - you can bet it would get a recommendation in most magazines. Entry-level gives a huge bias towards being, well, affordable to peolpe who are lookig to step up. And $40-50K for a Volvo or Audi or BMW because they want a luxury car that's not the size of a Civic or 3 series(the 3 isn't really useable for a family, for instance)... It's just a hard pill for many to swallow, even if they can do so. They'd much rather find somethng for $35K and save the money.
Btw, a base 2007 CTS is just at $28K. The new ones will be about $32-34K to start, according to the dealer I talked to today. Cloth seats, no nav, 6-speed gearbox... but with that nice 3.6VVT engine and the better interior. Looks very attractive to me.
CarsDirect Price: $28,327 - including delivery. No incentives, financing, or rebates currently. I don't se how the base 2008 is going to be that much more expensive. Certainly not 40k+ as some of the detractors are saying it will be.
Speaking as a 13 year old with 33 years experience, I don't believe Mark has reached the age where practicality trumps status. He may subscribe to Cleopatra's definition of luxury: dissolving pearls in wine and drinking them. One reason M-B and others have been able to sell small, uncomfortable, and sometimes unreliable cars successfully is that everyone knows they are very expensive to own. Cadillac hasn't been able to do that, and I hope they never do.
I've never been able to understand the allure of an imported product, and I suspect people who feel it cannot be cured. One of my former neighbors had such a bad time with his 300D, the dealer gave him a full price credit on a new one, and later the idiot bought a third one.
Some people are gizmo freaks and load their cars up with options just to say it's loaded.
Remember the 2007 base has the smaller engine and vinyl; the 3.6L starts about 33k.
Do you have any actual information they're offering cloth seats? Right now, they offer them only in Middle East 2.8L CTS's and not US ones. This is important to me because I much prefer cloth.
Well, that's what the dealer said - that the base model will have cloth seats since everyone hated the vinyl and kept requesting cloth.
I suspect that the price won't be much different, or maybe a slight bit less to keep that bottom-end as close to 30K as possible. Cloth is an easy way to save some money in a non-critical area that doesn't destroy the interior.
Personally I don't like the cheap leather anyways - it's not REAL full-thickness leather, either, so why pay the money, especially when you know it's just going to get stains on it from the kids and such?
That's very good news to me. I don't remember any mention of cloth in the press release, but they were careful to avoid saying the dash was leather (could be an option). Cadillac hasn't offered cloth in the US since 1999.
My beef with leather is ventilation, pun intended. I can't wear synthetics without puddling. I've never tried perforated leather or the new ventilated seats--I wonder if they're discussed in a thread here.
I suspect thicker leather wouldn't be very showroom-soft, but it would hold up better. Cracked leather is uglier and harder to fix than dirty cloth.
It's going to be hard to get one of these at MSRP for a while, much less a discount.
jkr2106 Posts: 231since everyone hated the vinyl
So, is that to say the 2007 CTS has two different seating materials, leather and vinyl, or that it only offers the vinyl?
The current 2.8L CTS has vinyl standard, leather optional. The 3.6L has leather standard. In fact, all other Cadillacs since 1999 have leather (the V's have seuded fabric inserts). The 2008 2.8 will be export-only, apparently in cloth or leather, as will the US 3.6.


text:
Insurance Commissioner Jay Bradford said the state will continue setting up a partnership with the federal government to set up an online marketplace for patients to shop for insurance policies, a key component of the law that justices upheld in a 5-4 ruling.
"It's a pretty clear cut decision, so we're going to keep going with our planning process as we have been," Bradford said. "We have been really proceeding as if it would be held intact."
A legislative panel earlier this year accepted a $7.7 million grant for the marketplace, and the partnership will allow the state to have some regulatory authority, including reviewing contracts, over the insurance exchange, Bradford said.
The state opted for the partnership model after Republican lawmakers opposed legislation that would allow Arkansas to set up its own exchange.
"Let's just join hands and go forward and try to take care of the people we care most about and that's Arkansans," he said.
By criticizing the health overhaul in the 2010 election, Arkansas Republicans made widespread gains, toppling two-term U.S. Sen. Blanche Lincoln and winning two traditionally Democrat-held congressional seats.
Republicans said the ruling does nothing to settle the debate. House Minority Leader Bruce Westerman of Hot Springs said he believes the November election is now even more important after the ruling, with the GOP aiming to win control of the state Legislature for the first time since Reconstruction.
"It's too early to say on that, but I think there would still be an effort to deny funding for health care exchanges until we're more squared on what the impact of the ruling is," Westerman said.
One of the biggest unanswered questions for legislators is the impact of the court's ruling that the federal government cannot threaten to withhold states' entire Medicaid allotment if they don't expand eligibility. A spokesman for Democratic Gov. Mike Beebe said the governor was still studying that part of the ruling, but state Medicaid officials said they're proceeding with the expansion.
Human Services Department Director John Selig said the Medicaid expansion will amount to more than $1 billion in additional costs, the first three years of which will be covered by the federal government.
Between the Medicaid expansion and the health care law that was upheld, Selig said about 500,000 Arkansans will be entering the health care system.
GOP legislators indicated that the Medicaid expansion will be the next fight over the overhaul.
"It was a disappointing day in many regards, but it is exciting, I think, for this debate to now move to the statehouses and local governments," said Sen. Jeremy Hutchinson, R-Little Rock.
Republicans in the state's congressional delegation also criticized the ruling and said they planned to continue pushing for a repeal of the law.
"Today's decision is a monumental error and paves the way for one of the largest tax increases in history," Republican U.S. Rep. Tim Griffin said.
Democrats in the delegation, however, said the ruling gives both parties a chance to work together.
"While it provides more certainty, it still allows us to work in a bipartisan way to improve our health care system," Democratic Sen. Mark Pryor said.
Republican Congressman Rick Crawford, who supported keeping some parts of the law last year, also called for a full repeal after the ruling. Prosecutor Scott Ellington, a Democrat who is challenging Crawford for the east Arkansas seat, called efforts to repeal the law "hyper-political."
Beebe was subdued in his response and said his office was still studying to see what the impact would be. He has said that he would not have voted for the health care overhaul. Beebe, who was in France on an economic development trip, said the state would focus on a separate initiative aimed at changing the way Medicaid pays for services in Arkansas.
"Our aim is to set an example other states can follow, regardless of what transpires next in Washington, D.C.," Beebe said in a statement released by his office.


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|Camille Bryant receiving her trophy for High Junior from Jack Arnold, match director.
Alex Egerton (black hat) and David Best (blue hat) compete in the
Twenty shooters of all ages (16-70) from
The state champion is determined by the aggregate of all eight matches over the two days. The competitors are classified according their ability as determined by scores from previous matches. The four classifications are master, expert, sharpshooter, and marksman. In order to be classified as a master shooter, the competitor must average 99.5 percent; an expert 98.5-99.49 percent, sharpshooter 96.5-98.49 percent, and marksman below 96.5 percent.
At the end of the first day, Bryant was third in the Marksman class, followed by Best and Sun. McLemore was second overall and the first master. The winds started blowing Sunday, but that did not trouble Bryant, Best or Sun who shot better scores than the first day.
For the two day aggregate, Bryant won the High Junior Trophy with a 2,990 out of 3,200 possible score — an impressive score for a shooter who has only been shooting since November 2010, and with this being her third official match. Best was not far behind with a 2,915 and was fourth Marksman. This was Brian Sun's very first match and was fifth Marksman.
McLemore was second overall and High Master with a total score of 3,189. She was out shot by Richard Layton, a student at
The New Mexico Tech Shooting Sports Club is now preparing for the New Mexico State Air Rifle Championship April 1 to 3. Contact McLemore for more information at firstname.lastname@example.com.
Four members of the club (Bryant, Best, Alex Egerton and Elizabeth Barteau) and McLemore will be traveling to NRA National Intercollegiate Championships at The Citadel in
New members of the New Mexico Tech Shooting Sports Club are welcome. The club has regular practice at the New Mexico Tech Gym Classroom every Monday at 5-7 PM during the fall and spring semesters. The club also has regular highpower rifle matches in addition to smallbore rifle and air rifle.


text:
I am using an open source library, there are quite a few interesting functions prototypes defined this way in a non-interface header file:
#define somefunction _somefunction
void somefunction(int a);
I write my routine which calls somefunction(). After include the non-interface header, my routine can compile, but failed to link to the library. So I linked to the *.o files directly. It works, but the solution is ugly.
So the questions is how to reuse the internal functions from a library. Any suggestion?


text:
I have a program where I tried the vector structure to store number. A small vector is declared filled and then push_back is used to store numbers as they pop up. However, this is quite slow. I java, which is my first language, I use lists or arrays to do this, but in c++ I'm not sure of how to choose, performance wise.
The program stores between 0 to 10000 integers. So should I go with a list or an array.
Just add a node when a number pops up.Code:
node | node
data | data
Redeclare if array is full and copy the old, then insert new numbers.Code:
Array[1000] = {data, data, etc...}
I usually lean against list as I think it's easier, no tinkering with arrays that's to small. But when I read papers on the subject it seems many c++ coders are using vectors and arrays to do this kind of stuff. Is there a reason for this, speed wise, or have I just stumbled upon gnarly papers..?


text:
Read the full story here Web Link posted Tuesday, September 3, 2013, 5:25 PM
Town Square
Ruling sparks fresh hope for high-speed-rail critics
Original post made on Sep 4, 2013
Read the full story here Web Link posted Tuesday, September 3, 2013, 5:25 PM
a resident of Danville
on Sep 4, 2013 at 11:29 am
The fact I am leaving the first comment, is the reason our elected officials get away with being criminals, by openly flouting laws, with no repercussions. The masses have been fed the opiate, though it is no longer religion that is the opiate, but the almighty dollar and the crazy lifestyles most live to stay solvent. Long live the uninformed masses, and on lives their fleecing by elected officials!!!
a resident of Danville
on Sep 6, 2013 at 8:58 am
There is a local parallel to the state government's flouting of the Rail Bond Ballot Measure: Danville's Town Council is hoping to get away with flouting the 2000 Danville Ballot Measure S, which requires voter approval for conversions of Agricultural-designated land to residential development.
The Council just approved SummerHill Homes' proposed conversion of Magee Ranch to a 70+ home residential development and failed to schedule the Measure S-required public vote despite the objections of literally thousands of local residents. Now SOS-Danville is suing the Town Council to get a judge to order the public vote. We are thankful for the American justice system, which is the only check on this kind of tyranny by governments.
a resident of Danville
on Sep 9, 2013 at 3:13 pm
Although I agree with you in general, that the lack of citizen response is a part of the problem, there is another problem that is directly caused by Danville Express itself in these forums (and is also present in other newsletter's forums) which makes it look like there are few responses, when, in fact, MANY responses were made earlier.
The forum does not consolidate the prior responses to the same issue into one forum heading/topic.
In other words, there have been a LOT of comments made by a LOT of people in previous DE articles on virtually the same subject as these heading.
The first article about the rail bond issue will have 30 responses.
Then DE issues a second article (or some new teaser update statement) and that article will have 20 responses.
By the third article (which looks like a fresh new article with no comments at first), a lot of people have submitted numerous comments about the issue, often with great additional information or logical arguments. But those prior responses are essentially "lost from the discussion" by DE's methodology of operating the forums.
This article is at least the fourth article on the same subject.
People don't want to keep writing or reading the same comments with no tie-in to the former comments.
The organization and structure of DE's forum system is the problem here. It is a really imperfect system.
Patch, etc. have similar bad systems.
a resident of Danville
on Sep 9, 2013 at 3:28 pm
PSMac... that was useful input. I think if these local email weekly's want to succeed, they need to do a far better job. And you point out a perfect example.


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Homeschool conversations I really have had part 1 (YouTube Video)
I found this funny & sadly true!
People/moms can be very critical of each other (no matter the issue). I have never had a negative experience concerning homeschooling really. Not outside the homeschooling circle anyways. It is typically other homeschoolers that I find criticism from. Some homeschoolers are great at supporting others - and other homeschoolers seem to strike out at anything and everything that doesn't align to their standards or ideals. The ability to have tolerance for our differences, will always be an issue of the human race.
Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air... Emerson *FIRE DRILL*
I've pretty much had all 3 of those conversations at least once.
Wow....I had to to to youtube and find more. The pt4 is hilarious. Aparently homeschoolers eat the same thing for lunch every day....ROFLMAO


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LeBron is sick and would score a lot against a team like the Spurs, there's no question about it. You'd probably get some combination of Kawhi Leonard and Stephen Jackson on LeBron.
But I think the Spurs could score a ton on Miami. They move the ball well and have tons of guys who can score from different places on the court -- it's not a team like the Knicks where LeBron can D up Carmelo or a team like the Celtics who don't have a consistent scorer anymore.
The biggest difference in this series is experience -- most of the games could go either way and have swayed at crunch time. Guys like Ginobili and Parker wouldn't fade and make dumb mental errors the way Harden and Westbrook have.