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|June 5, 2009, 12:24 PM
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Not sure I agree with that Mr. Santoro. This is a legitimate option, you want to secure the guy so he doesn't 1) get away with B&E 2) so you're not forced to shoot and probably kill him.
Personally, I wouldn't do it. You don't know what the BG has on him or on his mind. It's definitely a lot more dangerous than just holding the gun on him and getting another family member to call the police.
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|June 5, 2009, 12:30 PM
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Handcuffs are a problem waiting to happen,
Ever watch COPS? Ever see how many in shape, trained LEO's it takes to get the cuffs on a recalcitrant suspect? You are going to do this, alone, untrained, in your house? BS, you try, you are going to get at worst a beat down, and more than likely, the cuffs on you and him with your gun.
Its really easy. If he is in your house without permission and committing a felony, if you did not invite him in, if you are afraid that he is going to hurt you, you can SHOOT HIM. if you prefer NOT to shoot him, then tell him in small words to get the hell out or you will shoot him. If you wish, you might be generous and tell him lay down and spread them or you will shoot him. If he refuses, you can feel that he is figuring out how to hurt you, and you can SHOOT him.
Find me ONE SINGLE CASE where an honest law abiding home owner was ever charged or convicted for shooting a burglar or strong arm robbery suspect in their own home. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. If the person is being charged, it is because of other circumstance. IE a drug deal gone bad, or someone invited them in, but after 25 beers, when the invitee had worn out there welcome by hitting on the inviters GF, inviter shoots invitee, no thats not going to fly.
BUT if you are joe homeowner, watching TV at midnight when someone kicks your door open and starts demanding your money and you put three center of mass, or if you come in from the deck and charlie crackhead is in your Living room boosting your TV, and you pop him, your NOT going to jail. More than likely, the kind of guy who breaks into your home is going to have a record that has its own hard drive down at the Local PD. Its a simple fact, most crimes are committed by a very small percentage of the population. When you find yourself confronted in your own home by a invader, that is the lifestyle this person has chosen. More often than not, you will get a very private "attaboy" from the cops who show up. They will know his name without looking for ID, When the Cops say, "bad day to be you, Joe Bob," or "Tyrone", Or "Hector" to the body on your floor, relax, you did a good thing.
I get sick and tired of people thinking that if you do not follow a prescribed set of steps in exactly the right order, you are going to spend your life behind bars if you shoot. NO you are not, IF you are a good law abiding Citizen and your worst "crime" to date has been a speeding ticket driving home from church to catch the rest of the first half of the football game. If you have some drug history, or a few D&D charges from your years of being a jack ass, you might have some trouble, but if like most americans, your worst thing was a traffic citation, or you got caught stealing the rival high schools mascot and you had to pick up trash for two weekends, NO you are not going to jail for shooting a hoodlum in your house.
Handcuffs are a problem for anyone except the Law, and maybe a few who have wives who like that sort of thing. other than that, All I see out of it is a lawsuit.
|June 5, 2009, 12:38 PM
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|June 5, 2009, 12:41 PM
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"So in areas where you have the right to use any level of force to stop a violent felony could you use hand cuffs on the felon... LEGALLY?"
this is a little confusing...
I assume you mean that a violent felony has begun or is well underway and some how you have stopped it (gunpoint, commands, physical control).
If you have stopped a violent felony and have not fired a shot, I assume you consider cuffs an option to hold them there to be picked up. Another poster summed this one up for me when they said, "I'm not in the business of detaining criminals."
If you have stopped a violent felony via shots fired, then you shouldn't be concerned with handcuffs. More concerned about safety and medical attention.
It does not appear you are talking about someone in your home just standing in the kitchen after b & e or someone outside taking your car cd player. Since the term violent felony is used.
|June 5, 2009, 12:50 PM
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For an instance, being held up in the walmart parking lot etc... And yes as a means to detain for LE to arrive. I am not fond of the idea of stopping the crime and not the crook. But would only shoot if forced to do so.
|June 5, 2009, 01:02 PM
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thanks Brent.
In a parking lot or elsewhere, if I stop a crime without firing I doubt circumstances would be favorable for me to handcuff someone.
I have seen cases though and you probably have too (cops / most wanted / etc) where someone has hurt someone or is trying to get away and a few guys grab him and basically hold him down until police take control.
In a couple of these, the arriving police push the citizens away and then take control. One was a guy that was scuffling with a police officer near his car and two bystanders jumped in and helped subdue the BG and then 3 other officers arrived and did a little more "subduing"
|June 5, 2009, 01:13 PM
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Here is juniors chipped tooth he got when we were each holding a set trying to cuff the other... mrs.hogdogs was not the happiest momma at my house that day!
|June 5, 2009, 01:13 PM
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Just do what's practical. If someone's in my house at 3am they're getting the surefire first then the AK immediately if I don't like what I see, he'll be lucky if he can get his hands up or say something before I shoot.
Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250
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|June 5, 2009, 03:16 PM
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If someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night, odds are not only will I not handcuff him, I probably won't even see him. I'll be barricaded behind a solid core door with my shotgun and dialing 911.
The best way to survive (physically, mentally, and legally) an encounter with a home intruder is to avoid it.
I know this is not an option for some folks due to floor plans, other family members, and whatnot, but in my house it is a great option.
|June 5, 2009, 03:47 PM
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same here Donn
the way we're set up via middle of the night break in is...
what he (they) do or take in the living room or laundry room is their business.
what happens if they proceed much deeper and down the hall toward where my girls are sleeping is my business.
|June 5, 2009, 04:10 PM
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Find an experienced criminal attorney in your state and discuss that question with him.
You've mentioned two scenarios: one involves a forcible (some laws say 'tumultuous") entry while you are in your house. Pretty straightforward, I'd say. In almost all states you may shoot, but in some you may need to try retreating first. In the OP's case and in mine, you do not.
The second scenario you describe involves the resident coming in to find someone in his home and shooting him for trying to take property. I only know of "one single case" where such an incident has occurred: in Washington State, which has a castle doctrine, a homeowner recently found a perp in his house and shot him. He has been charged with murder. Good enough for you?
You see, the homeowner was not in the house when the guy entered. By the way, most state castle laws are written in such a manner that most people will understand that they just can't get by with that. In some states, being on the deck may qualify as occupying the domicile, but in others it will not.
And there's only one state (potentially two, actually) in which shooting simply to stop the taking of the TV would be legal, but only under limited circumstances, and you would have to show that the shooting had been necessary to prevent the removal of the property.
It ain't a procedural question at all--forget the steps. It's simply a matter of whether you are legally justified under the circumstances and whether the evidence supports that defense.
In the event of a forcible unlawful entry while you are occupying your domicile, that defense is apt to prove a whole lot easier and less expensive than might the defense for a shooting in a parking lot with no witnesses.
And again, I strongly suggest that you check out the links and read the book recommended by Pax.
|June 5, 2009, 04:31 PM
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Geez, that permit dont make you a cop. Handcuff someone and you will be in court over it. Dont give the BG ammo for him to use against you in court.
|June 5, 2009, 05:19 PM
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"It's a nice opinion but?"....
Yep, it is my opinion!
This is the bottom line: When someone has broken in my home at 3:00am in the morning, (or any other time for that matter) they are history, toast, etc. etc. I heard someone say, "Just do what is practical"? I will do what is practical, PROTECT MY FAMILY....
You guys kill me with the B.S. What the heck has happened to this country, (when the bad guys get the benefit of the doubt)? Remind me to NEVER be in your home when someone breaks in your house.....
Glad I make my own decisions and don't depend on your support. Defend yourself and family first.
Forget about all the rest of this B.S.
Last edited by skydiver3346; June 6, 2009 at 08:18 AM.
|June 6, 2009, 10:28 AM
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|June 7, 2009, 01:42 AM
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Handcuffs, I use them at work.
If I'm not at work I will be distancing myself from the adversary and seeking cover. If the felon wants to run away from me, great. If he complies with my orders to "prone out" great. I'm still not touching him with a 10' pole. In short, I don't want to be anywhere close to my adversary. Handcuffs, to apply them, force you to come in to contact with your adversary.
If he or she is injured in the encounter, not good, great or bad, they are just injured. No, I'm not tending to an adversaries wounds at that time either. It could just be a trap to "lull" me in. Like I said, I want distance.
Unless you are a LEO that is required to carry them off duty I see no need for them in an off duty, or non LEO application. That's just my $0.02. If this has already been stated, I apologise. I didn't read four pages of post just to give my $0.02.
|June 7, 2009, 02:02 AM
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I would have no reservations handcuffing a felon after I have shot him in my home. After all how that I have shot him COM now I should do first aid and to do that I have to render him safe. Just remember its shoot then cuff not cuff then shoot.
Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.
|June 7, 2009, 02:55 AM
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Citizens arrests are generally legal, but it would be illegal to move him, you could only detain him until LE showed up. See if you could get former leo to train you to use them. Proper handcuffing is generally done very quickly, most of the trainees who were with me could get in and out of a persons bubble in less than 5 seconds. Once you get one cuff on a bg you can usually manipulate them easily if they start to resist, I was certified in handcuffing when I was 18 but there are alot of things to know before you actually go try to handcuff someone. Just to throw a few out there:
Handcuffing and uncuffing is one of the most dangerous situations an LEO ever gets himself into on a daily basis.
Handcuffs are a deadly weapon, once you have one cuff on, if you lose control of the suspect and have to disengage you should immiadiatley go for your sidearm.
Any time you step into a persons bubble (if I rememer correctly the kill zone is anywhere within a 6 foot radius of someone) you are putting yourself in danger so you want to get in and out as quick as possible.
You never know whats going to happen so keep them, but I think for a civilian it would make more sense and be easier to just make them lay on the ground and hold them at gun point until LE showed up
|June 7, 2009, 07:00 AM
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OTOH, if you are a physician (or maybe even an RN), I could see how this could be used in reverse. If you did nothing and the BG dies, his lawyers could say, "As a doctor, how come you did not administer CPR?"
Just my 2¢
|June 7, 2009, 09:25 AM
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Remember laws vary by state
For instance, in Florida or Georgia, I can shoot a BG who breaks into my home. I have no responsibility to retreat, and the burglary itself justifies the shoot. In both states, I cannot be sued over a legally justified defensive shooting. Note: in Florida's statute, burglary of a home is listed among violent felonies. This may be at least in part due to rising number of home invasions...
At the other end, in Massachusetts I remember a case where a woman heard somebody break into her home. She picked up the nearest heavy object, a kid's gumball machine, and when the intruder came around the corner, she hit him over the head with it. It killed him. DA charged her with manslaughter. I don't remember if she was convicted, but in MA you are required to retreat, even in your own home.
Remember, on this forum posters aren't necessarily even in the US, let alone your state, so it's possible they can offer opinions that are legally and technically correct for them, yet way off base for you or me.
|June 7, 2009, 09:29 AM
Join Date: June 8, 2008
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Nonetheless, not for me. Attorneys tell me that the legal risk involves a very slippery slope indeed, and most of the books and websites on personal defense seem to concur.
|June 7, 2009, 09:34 AM
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MLeake: Massachusetts laws
If that law about retreat is true, I'm sure glad I live here in Florida and not Mass. Retreat in your own home?? That is pure crap. Someone breaks into your home and you have to run and hide.. Right, like that is going to happen!
|June 7, 2009, 09:46 AM
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skydiver, The retreat law is in place in several states to varying degree.
YUP... Sux to live there!
|June 7, 2009, 09:52 AM
Join Date: June 8, 2008
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The court will issue a stay against a civil suit while you are under criminal prosecution, and in the event of a civil suit, proof of an unlawful entry can serve as a defense. That's a little different from "cannot be sued."
That's for Florida. You can check Georgia yourself.
|June 7, 2009, 09:58 AM
Join Date: June 8, 2008
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You do not have to retreat if you are in your domicile (that includes a tent, by the way) or car in Missouri, either. I'm told that the law was enacted to correct some bad case law.
The original "duty to retreat" concept existed for a reason, but its extension into the occupied home exceeds all standards of reasonableness by a long shot, in my opinion.
Last edited by OldMarksman; June 7, 2009 at 10:02 AM. Reason: typo
|June 7, 2009, 11:22 AM
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Pay very close attention to Section 3 part B. I've read this about 20 times now and what I got from it was if someone unrelated to me forces their way into my house or if I stumble upon them in my house I can shoot them as I am "presumed to have held a reasonable fear of threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury" in such a situation.
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Agile Project Management with GreenHopper 6 Blueprints
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Golson also is one of 11 former band members charged with felony hazing in the Nov. 19 death of drum major Robert Champion in Orlando.


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Brittany P.
Posted on June 27, 2015 | Visited this location June 20, 2015
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Don't waste your time!
I came in thinking my daughter had an ear infection or something else that could be treated with minimal antibiotics. I was told absolutely nothing about what was actually wrong with her. He made me try to give my 8 month old daughter water, which as any parent or human with common sense would know, she wouldn't drink being as she was sick and most kids hate water! As a result of her not drinking it, I was told she was severely dehydrated, warned that if I waited longer she would have to be brought back from "the jaws of death", which I am quoting from the physician, and forced to take her to the ER. I was also told that because her heart rate was high, which is normal when a child has a fever (I guess it doesn't matter to this physician), that she would need to have something done to get it down, and only the ER could do that. Upon arrival at the ER, I was informed she was not dehydrated at all and that she had the beginning stages of pneumonia. I was also told that her heart rate was well within the normal ranges for a child with a fever. (Well, duh).
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Posted on November 15, 2015 | Visited this location November 14, 2015
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Completely unimpressed
I took my daughter here around 6:45 pm. I felt like we were an inconvenience and they were ready to go home. The nurse that saw her was rude and showed no compassion for my daughter as she cried from being in pain. We weren't seen by a dr at all. They sent us to ER. Even a nurse there said she questioned their motives quite often. Pitiful.


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In the disturbing yet vital film Taxi to the Dark Side, Army Specialist Damien Corsetti, one of six interrogators who confessed to torturing and killing an innocent taxi driver at the Bagram Air Force Base in Afghanistan in 2002, stoically peers into the camera and tries to justify his actions.
"When you look at people as less than human, you find yourself doing unthinkable things," Mr. Corsetti says of his role in the death of Dilawar, the young Afghani wrongly accused of being the trigger man in a rocket attack.
This statement aptly sums up the themes of filmmaker Alex Gibney's meticulously crafted documentary. Winner of this year's Academy Award for best documentary feature, Taxi to the Dark Side will be screened Sunday as part of the Martha's Vineyard Film Festival.
This is not so much a film about the horrible things people are forced to do during war, as about the horrible things soldiers readily accepted as part of war. As one solider in the film puts it, the circumstances of the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, in the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorists attacks, led soldiers to "lose their moral bearings."
The film is loosely structured around the death of Dilawar, who was brought in December 2002 to Bagram, a former Soviet air base converted into an interrogation site for suspected Taliban operatives. Less than a week later, he was found dead in his cell; military officials listed the cause of death as natural causes.
However a pair of New York Times reporters, Tim Golden and Carlotta Gall, investigated further. They tracked down Dilawar's family as well as a U.S. death certificate which listed the cause of death as homicide.
The film uses Dilawar's death to put a human face on torture, explaining how he was chained to the ceiling of his cell and subjected to a practice called "knee strikes" to the point where his legs had become pulpified; they would have to have been amputated had he lived.
Dilawar's case becomes the springboard to a larger indictment of sanctioned and unsanctioned torture by U.S. forces in the war on terror.
The documentary goes on to chronicle abuse at Abu Ghraib, Bagram prison and Guantanamo Bay. Common practices include forced standing, sleep deprivation, sexual humiliation, forced nudity, the threat of dog attacks, and waterboarding, forcing a victim to inhale water to simulate drowning.
But perhaps the most disturbing aspect of these barbaric tactics is just how readily soliders embraced them as a matter of duty — raising few quibbles about the morals or ethics of their actions.
Mr. Gibney wrote and directed the equally compelling documentary Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room. In Taxi, he uses interviews with five soldiers who were eventually found guilty for Dilawar's torture and death, to show how U.S. soldiers were operating under poorly defined directives, with minimal input from their superiors, about the use of physical and psychological brutality on prisoners.
And while the soldiers interviewed for the film seem haunted by their actions after the fact, each concedes that at the time, they accepted their orders as a matter of course. Many of the soldiers even admit that they believed the taxi driver, who weighed no more than 120 pounds and offered no resistance, probably had done nothing wrong.
But as one soldier puts it, "I didn't want to be seen as going against my fellow soldiers" by questioning the use of torture.
After Sept. 11, 2001, U.S. leaders suddenly embraced aggressive interrogation as a means to gather information. The "dark side" in the film's title is taken from a quote by U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney in the days following those attacks.
"We will have to work the dark side, if you will," Mr. Cheney said on Meet the Press. "We're going to have to spend time in the shadows."
Taxi to the Dark Side lays out — through documents, television clips and interviews with military leaders — how this embrace of the dark side by U.S. leaders has led to a global campaign of kidnapping, torture, illegal detentions and shaky evidence gathered through torture. No one who views Taxi To the Dark Side can plead ignorance to disturbing erosions of basic human morality which have been committed in the name of protecting the American way of life. One of the most shocking revelations in the film is the introduction of a bill to Congress that would effectively pardon members of the Bush administration from future prosecution for the use of torture and abuse.
"Richard Nixon at least hired Gerald Ford to do the pardoning," Mr. Gibney, who narrates the film, says in a voice-over.
The film makes a compelling argument that the vast majority of the soldiers detained at places such as Guantanamo and Bagram are likely innocent of any acts of terrorism. As of September of 2006, the film states, none of the 83,000 people incarcerated in the name of stopping terrorism had appeared in court to defend themselves.
Only seven per cent of those detained at Guantanamo were even captured by U.S. soldiers; over 90 per cent were taken by Iraqi or Afghani personnel. Indeed the men who captured Dilawar and turned him over to U.S. forces seem to have done so, according to the film, simply to collect what amounts to a cash bounty, offering no evidence that he was guilty of any terrorist attacks or associations.
The movie comes full circle when Mr. Gibney shows scenes of his father, Frank Gibney, a Naval intelligence officer during World War II who was terminally ill in the hospital while he was making the film. The senior Gibney explains that he and his fellow soldiers never considered using torture on Japanese soldiers during the war — not so much because it was morally wrong, which they knew it was, but because they knew doing so would bring them to a dark side they believed they were fighting against.
"We thought our principles gave us a strength the enemy didn't have," Frank Gibney recalls in the closing minutes of the film. "It's what made us different."
Taxi to the Dark Side screens at 5 p.m. Sunday at the Chilmark Community Center. Tickets are available at the door.


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Lose up to 10 pounds in a month.
Articles about physical activity in obesity and healthy and urgently to lose weight in 2 days as well as proper nutrition
Physiological role of vitamin D in the body is mainly associated with the exchange of calcium and physical activity in obesity and phosphorus; vitamin D depends on the correct deposition of these substances in the bones of the child, which ensures the normal flow of the process of ossification.
For the first time vitamin D has been obtained in crystalline form in 1931 under the irradiation of the organic matter of ergosterol with ultraviolet rays and physical activity in obesity and was named vitamin D2 (before it was received vitamin D1 which, as hay for losing weight, it was found later, were composed of vitamin D2 and vitamin). Ergosterol was first obtained from physical activity in obesity and LPV, then it turned out that the heat calorie and it is found in many other plants.
After receiving vitamin D from ergosterol was a question about the allocation of this Continue reading
Lemon – Beneficial and harmful properties of lemon
A small evergreen fruit tree up to 8m, with spreading or pyramidal crown.
The leaves are leathery, green, length 10-15 cm, width 5-8 cm Flowers axillary, solitary or paired. Fruit length of 6-9 cm, diameter of 4-6 cm, ovate or oval, with the nipple at the apex, light yellow, parting with hard lumpy or foveate cortex containing many glands with essential oil. The inner part of the fetus with multiple nests. Seeds ovoid, yellow-green or white, in the context of greenish.
The birthplace of lemon are considered tropical and subtropical China, India and Burma. At present it is cultivated in Mediterranean Countries, USA, in the Caucasus.
From the get lemon essential oil, lemon juice, citric acid and p. R. So to produce Continue reading
What you need to eat after a workout
Often beginners to play sports focus only on the training and not paying proper attention to nutrition. In any sport involving physical activity healthy eating should become an integral part of the training process. If you do not pay due attention to diet, exercise can become inefficient. An important component of the diet of an athlete is eating immediately after training.
Why you need food after a workout?
After exercise, the body needs to be reinforced portions of proteins and carbohydrates. Protein is the building block for muscles, and carbohydrates are responsible for the replenishment of energy reserves of the body. In addition, carbohydrates trigger insulin production, which has an anabolic and anti-catabolic properties, and with his lack of is the destruction Continue reading


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The cast and crew of "Glee" will say goodbye to former cast member Cory Monteith in an episode titled "The Quarterback" on October 10.
Fox's musical dramedy will pay tribute to the actor, who played the initially reluctant glee club member Finn, in the third episode of its fifth season. Monteith, who was found dead in a Vancouver hotel room this summer, had been a member of the show's cast since it premiered in 2009.
In "The Quarterback, Finn's friends learn and react to news of of his death. One of the song's featured in the episode will be Lea Michelle's rendition of Bob Dylan's "Make You Feel My Love."
"I locked [the episode] today. It was incredibly difficult to work on. It was very difficult to shoot," series creator Ryan Murphy told reporters on Thursday.
Monteith died on July 13 at the age of 31 of an accidental overdose of alcohol and heroin.


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Indexed List of Departmental Files
Every six months, the Department is required to prepare a response to the Senate Continuing Order for Indexed List of Departmental or Agency Files (known more often as "the Harradine Report", as the order was instigated by then Senator Harradine in 1996).
This order requires that an indexed list of all files, created in the central offices of all Federal Government agencies, be published to the Internet, so it is accessible to the public and can assist with Freedom of Information requests.
The Continuing Order requires that only relevant file titles be published on the Department's website and allows for the following exclusions to be made from the list:
- Case related files (e.g. personal representations or dealings with the personal affairs of policy departments or tax payers);
- Files related to the internal administration of the Department or Agency;
- Containing commercially confidential or identifiably personal information;
- Files that on face value, disclose that a particular matter had been put out, or was to be put to the Cabinet.
Index file lists
- File titles created between 1 July to 31 December 2017 XLSX: 877 KB
- File titles created between 1 January to 30 June 2017 XLSX: 398 KB
- File titles created between 1 July to 31 December 2016 XLSX: 474 KB
- File titles created between 1 January to 30 June 2016 XLSX: 559 KB
For all general enquiries, please contact:
Records Management Unit
Email: email@example.com


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Privacy policies are not fun. They're written in legalese, and then that particularly nasty dialect of legalese written by corporate lawyers. The major internet services company that it is, Google had tons of privacy policies - over 70, in fact. They've now consolidated all these policies into one, simpler policy, which covers most Google services.
This also means that Google will start sharing data and information between its services. In other words, what YouTube videos you watch (only while logged into your Google account, of course) could potentially influence search results. It opens the door to a whole load of other cool features as well.
"We can make search better - figuring out what you really mean when you type in Apple, Jaguar or Pink. We can provide more relevant ads too. For example, it's January, but maybe you're not a gym person, so fitness ads aren't that useful to you," Alma Whitten, Google's director of privacy, product and engineering, explains, "We can provide reminders that you're going to be late for a meeting based on your location, your calendar and an understanding of what the traffic is like that day. Or ensure that our spelling suggestions, even for your friends' names, are accurate because you've typed them before."
In all honesty, I assumed Google already did this - heck, it makes sense. Personalised search and advertisements make the web better for a lot of people, so I'm okay with all this stuff, especially taking into account you can turn personalised search and ads off. Heck, few companies provide the kind of fine-grained control over collected data as Google does, including the ability to move your data out of Google products and switch to alternatives.
And, as we've covered on OSNews before, there's always DuckDuckGo for a completely vanilla search experience. In addition - and this goes for any website - the web only knows what you consciously put into it. If you don't want Google or Facebook to know something, don't tell it to them. You don't shout your secrets in a crowded mall either, do you?


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STROUDSBURG, Pa. (AP) — Jury selection has been completed in the case of a retired Pennsylvania pastor charged with killing both of his wives who is on trial in the death of his second wife.
Sixty-four-year-old Arthur "A.B." Schirmer is charged with killing Betty Jean Schirmer in 2008 and staging a car accident to cover it up. A panel of 12 jurors and four alternates was chosen Monday. Opening statements are expected Tuesday at the Monroe County Courthouse in Stroudsburg.
Schirmer also stands accused of killing his first wife, Jewel, in 1999. A trial date hasn't been set.
A grand jury has said Schirmer likely used blunt objects to kill the women.
The retired clergyman denies hurting either of his wives.


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The UK's Supreme Court has handed down its judgment in Asset Land Investment Plc -v- the FCA. The judgment, which upholds the decisions of the lower Courts, is consistent with the FCA's long-held position on the meaning and effect of the term "collective investment scheme", especially in the context of "land-banking".
In February 2013, the High Court made an order requiring AL and several others to make an aggregate interim payment of £21m to the investors in AL's schemes; but the obligation to pay was suspended pending the outcome of this appeal. Today's decision makes it possible for that order to be enforced. However, the FCA thinks it's unlikely that the relevant parties have the £21m required to make these payments. It has therefore restricted itself to welcoming the Supreme Court's decision, and emphasizing that consumers should recognize that "there are huge risks when investing with unauthorized businesses".
Key facts:
Asset Land Investment Plc (AL) acquired property, and sold it to investors in small plots.
Every investor was required to sign and return a form, which explained that AL "did not give investment advice or offer regulated investment products … and … having sold the land [AL] does not pursue re-zoning or planning permission…". In addition, every contract "confirmed that no representations were relied on outside the contract"; and "provided that [AL] would not apply for planning permission for the property or provide any other services".
Despite that, there was a clear understanding between AL and the investors that (a) AL would seek to have the whole property rezoned for housing development; (b) when that had been done, AL would arrange for a developer to buy the whole property; and (c) every investor would receive a share of the profit from the sale of the property that was worth more than the price he'd paid for his plot.
Section 235 of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000:
"(1) … 'collective investment scheme' means arrangements with respect to property … the purpose or effect of which is to enable persons taking part in the arrangements … to participate in or receive profits or income arising from the acquisition, holding, management or disposal of the property …
(2) The arrangements must be such that the persons who are to participate … do not have … control over the management of the property …
(3) The arrangements must also have either or both of the following characteristics: (a) … (b) the property is managed as a whole by or on behalf of the operator of the scheme…"
The decisions of the Supreme Court:
Lord Sumption, with whom Lords Mance, Clarke and Hodge agreed, found that:
- "Arrangements":
- Arrangements "is a broad and untechnical word. It comprises not only contractual or other legally binding arrangements, but any understanding shared between the parties to the transaction about how the scheme would operate, whether legally binding or not. It also includes consequences which necessarily follow from that understanding, or from the commercial context in which it was made";
- "In these respects, the definition is concerned with substance and not with form. It is, however, important to emphasize that it is concerned with what the arrangements were and not with what was done thereafter … it must be possible to determine whether arrangements amount to a collective investment scheme as soon as those arrangements have been made. Whether the scheme is a collective investment scheme depends on what was objectively intended at that time, and not on what later happened, if different";
- "Property":
- "… the property referred to in subsection (1) is the property from whose acquisition, holding, management or disposal the profits or income were to be derived … that was the whole site. It was the whole site that was to be rezoned, and it was the whole site which was to be sold to a developer. The profit which each investor would derive from these transactions would be derived from an aliquot share of the entire sale price for the site ";
- "Day-to-day control":
- "'Control' of property means the ability to decide what is to happen to it … that does not only mean the legal ability to decide. It extends to a case where the arrangements are such that the investor will in practice be able to do so. But the critical point is that the absence of day to day control … has to be a feature of the arrangements. This is necessarily prospective, viewed from the time when the arrangements are made. Either those arrangements confer or allow control on the part of the investors or they do not. The test cannot depend on what happens after the arrangements have been made. Nor would a test based on the actual exercise of control be realistic … The question must necessarily be in whom would control be vested were control to be required";
- "Management of the property as a whole":
- " … what has to be 'managed as a whole' is the property the subject of the scheme, not the scheme itself … [There is a] fundamental distinction … between (i) cases where the investor retains entire control of the property and simply employs the services of an investment professional … to enhance value; and (ii) cases where he and other investors surrender control over their property to the operator of a scheme so that it can be … pooled or managed in common, in return for a share of the profits generated by the collective fund …";
- In this case, "each investor remained the entire owner and sole controller of his plot and simply counted on [AL] to enhance its value and find him a buyer. But the transaction cannot be viewed only in legal terms … the arrangements … could not work if the investors exercised the rights they theoretically possessed … The dominion of the investors over their plots, although apparently complete, was … an illusion … On that ground … the schemes with which we are concerned are collective investment schemes".
Lord Carnwath, with whom Lords Mance, Clarke, Sumption and Hodge agreed, found that:
- "Arrangements":
- In section 235, "The word 'arrangements' has its ordinary meaning … the content of the arrangements was a matter of fact for the judge". He was "entitled to take the view that the understandings of the investors conformed to what was intended by the operator … [and he] was not required to give special weight to contractual or other documents … The judge concluded that arrangements … were made when plots were marketed and investors paid their deposits, the object of the arrangements being that the company should achieve a sale of the site after seeking to enhance its value by improving the prospects for housing development, the price to be shared between the owners. That conclusion was amply supported by the evidence, and discloses no error of law";
- "Property":
- In this case, "… the relevant 'property' … was [AL's] site … taken as a whole, not the individual plots. That was the property whose sale was to lead to the profits which were the object of the exercise, and which brought the scheme within the scope of the section … That definition remains the same throughout the section";
- "Management control" :
- "…management control of the property under subsections (2) and (3) may be achieved in different ways. It is necessary to consider the mechanisms by which the participants on the one hand or the operator on the other manage or have management control of the property. The mechanisms may not be the same in each case, and they need not be legal mechanisms. That follows from the acceptance that the term 'arrangements' is not limited to agreements binding in law. By the same token, the 'control' envisaged by those arrangements is not confined to legal control";
- "Have … control":
- This "… is not a technical term … it … refer[s] to 'the reality' of how the arrangements are to be operated, which may or may not involve rights or powers enforceable in law … [The investors'] ability as individual owners to determine … whether or not to participate in a sale cannot be equated with control of its management in the meantime …";
- "Managed as a whole by or on behalf of the operator":
- "…control of the management activities for the property as a whole lay with [AL]. It was acting as the operator of the scheme, not as mere managing agent for the individual owners … control was not underpinned by any legal rights over the units making up the property. That did not affect the substance of the arrangements, even if it might have been an obstacle to their effective implementation"
AL was therefore operating a collective investment scheme.
The Supreme Court's judgments in this case, and its endorsement of a number of lower court decisions in other cases (including the Court of Appeal's decision in FCA -v- Capital Alternatives Limited), should make it easier for practitioners to identify, and avoid inadvertently creating, "collective investment schemes" in the future. That might even be enough to facilitate the resolution of some or all of the outstanding "land banking" cases. But it's unlikely to bring "collective investment scheme" litigation to an end just yet. There are several reasons:
- There's a lot a stake: it's a criminal offence to establish and operate a "collective investment scheme", without being FCA-authorised, or exempt from the obligation to be FCA-authorised. If the offence is committed, the consequences can be severe. If there's a successful prosecution, fines and imprisonment might follow. Whether or not there's a prosecution, investors may be entitled to recover their investments, together with interest, damages and costs. So, a lot can turn on whether there's a "collective investment scheme", or not;
- Sections 235 isn't the whole story: sections 235 and 417 of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 tell us what a "collective investment scheme" is, whilst the Collective Investment Schemes Order tells us that some arrangements, that would otherwise be "collective investment schemes", are not … if certain tests are met. But, the Collective Investment Schemes Order can also be difficult to interpret and apply (see our blog, for a recent example). So it's still relatively easy to end up with a "collective investment scheme", when you thought you'd done enough to avoid that result;
- The Supreme Court has handed down two judgments that go well beyond what was required to settle the issues in this case. It is therefore easy to imagine circumstances where the judgments will be persuasive, but not necessarily binding; and other circumstances where, because there are two judgments covering some of the same ground, a coach and horses can sit between them.
There are ways of mitigating or negating the legal and regulatory risks associated with arrangements that may (or may not be) "collective investment schemes". There is still therefore value in seeking specialist legal advice on these issues … despite the Supreme Court's heroic efforts.


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Today With Sean O Rourke Tuesday 11 October 2016
The mid-morning current affairs magazine with the stories of the day, sharp analysis, sports coverage, in-depth features and consumer interest.
It's Budget Day and in just three hours, Ministers Michael Noonan and Paschal Donohoe will be standing up in Dail Eireann, for their respective departments of Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform, to announce the details.
But it's hardly the days of Budget bombshells...are there any surprises left at all, you might ask...
Here to bring us through the details that have leaked already, the remaining grey areas and the potential banana skins, were Tony Foley, Senior Economics Lecturer at Dublin City University, Katie Hannon, political correspondent with RTE Prime Time and Pat Mc Mahon, Tax Partner at PricewaterhouseCoopers.
Samsung has halted sales of its Galaxy Note 7 smartphones and told owners to stop using them while it investigates reports of fires.
Aviation authorities have banned passengers using the phones, after smoke from a replacement device forced the evacuation of a passenger plane in the US last week. So what would you do if you have one of these phones? Adrian Wreckler, Independent Group Technology Editor joined us.
Recent figures released by Minister for Children and Youth Affairs Katherine Zappone to the Social Democrats confirmed that in July 2016, over 5,000 cases in Ireland did not have a Tusla social worker assigned to them...
But unfortunately, this feels like all too familiar story...
As we know, social workers are an essential part of our child and adult welfare system but a combination of under resourcing and the pressure of work loads are commonly cited as reasons why there are gaps in the system...
So, who would be a social worker and why? Our reporter Evelyn O'Rourke has been spending time with two busy social workers to find out what the job is really like behind the headlines.
Opinionated, critical, gifted - Ewan MacColl – the man who wrote 'Dirty Old Town' - was revered in Britain as the father of the folk music revival of the 1950s, he was born just over 100 years ago and died in 1989. His two sons Neill & Calum joined us in studio this morning.
The fallout from Sunday night's US Presidential Debate continued yesterday when House Speaker Republican Paul Ryan that he would not be campaigning for Donald Trump and that he was focusing on defending the party's majority in Congress.
He stopped short of withdrawing his support however the impact was felt across the Republican Party.
Graham Finlay, Lecturer in the School of Politics to discuss the continuing fallout from the debate.
Fine Gael MEP Brian Hayes has said this morning that we in this country could pay Northern Ireland's EU budget contribution in exchange for the North getting associate EU membership.
Now, Deidre Purcell has certainly had a more varied career than most.
She acted on the Abbey stage before moving into journalism where she became the first female anchor of the RTE Nine O'Clock News, and won numerous awards for her print journalism as well.
And now she's a best-selling author....and has just released her new book ``The Husband''. She joined us in studio.
Budget speeches are coming shortly, but are there many surprises left for public or for politicians? Irish Times political correspondent Harry McGee joined us this morning.
My Old Man
Chaim Tennenbaum
Joy Of Living
Chaim Tennenbaum
Presenter: Miriam O'Callaghan


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Hello - I am looking at a company that has had some lumpy CapEx primarily due to acquiring other companies. I am currently trying to reconcile my caclulated growth rate (Investment Rate X ROC) = Growth, where investment rate is a function of CapEx. Since this company has historically made a number of acquisitions in the last 5 years my implied growth rate is fairly high. Much higher than I would expect and higher than what I think they are capable of doing organically.I don't really understand how acquisitions affect growth, but I can appreciate the fact that if you are acquiring a company with X% of the market, their revenue now becomes your revenue and I guess that added revenue is growth. Is this a good way to grow? Seems that this is what you do if you don't know how to grow your own business.I feel that it might be risky to assume large growth in EBIT due to acquisition. I suppose in the end, the cashflow in my model will take a hit due to the heavy spend on acquiring other companies. Maybe it works out in the end. My valuation shows that the stock should be trading twice what it currently is. I suspect this is due to this high growth rate assumption and this makes me nervous. I could manually put in a lower growth rate to see how sensitive the numbers are to the acquisition assumption.I would appreciate any thoughts on growth through acquisition.Thanks,Jared
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Worlds most good natured cat
Monday, February 2, 2009
Amelia Loves Gracie
Worlds most good natured cat
Monday, December 15, 2008
|From Baking
Thursday, December 4, 2008
Amelia Goes For a Swing
Thursday, November 13, 2008
Amelia Meets Grandma
|From Grandma Georgine Vists
Amelia got to meet her Grandma Georgine for the first time this week. It was a fun time. I think they both fell in love.
|From Grandma Georgine Vists
Monday, November 10, 2008
|From Gateway Park
I first got glasses, 15 years ago when I was in the 7th grade, since then I have worn glasses nearly every waking moment. Partially because my eye sight had deteriorated to the point where I would need mega coke-bottle bottom glasses, and partially cause I had never tried contacts before, time I decided to give contacts a try. Amelia's new found love grabbing my glasses also made switching to contacts seem like a good idea to try.
So far I love them. Why I waited so long to try them will forever remain a mystery too me. They far more comfortable and easy to put in then I feared they would be. Still after living about half my life glasses always on, not wearing them is a strange experience. I am a major fidgeter, a lot of my fidgeting used to involve my glasses, now when I reach absentmindedly reach for them they are not there, which feel weird in an almost indescribable way. Taking a shower also feels very odd, I took me a while to realize that the reason that showering seemed oddly different was that for the first time in years I could actually see things while showering. Bizarre.
So based on the early returns, not withstanding a few torn contacts, that my experiment with contacts is a smashing success.
|From SanDiego
Wednesday, November 5, 2008
We got Kyai'u in 1993 when I was in 7th grade, for a long time prior to that my brother and I had been begging my parents to get a dog. We finally won my mother over and my father while not explicitly supporting getting a dog dropped his opposition (despite this opposition he would soon become one of Kyai'u's biggest fans. So minutes after my father left town on business trip, we were in the car on the way to get a dog.
As 13 year old boy, a toy poodle was certainly not my first pick when it came to dog breeds. But I really didn't care, I was getting a dog and could not have been happier. Bringing Kyai'u home is without a doubt one of my favorite childhood memories.
Kyai'u was a great dog, he was smart, loyal, affection, and despite very small size believed has was the toughest dog on the planet (an attitude that almost got him killed more than once). He was everything that a dog should be, and was case in point why dogs are considered man's best friend. Throughout my junior high and high school years one of my favorite of my days was taking Kyai'u on a walk after dinner. He was my loyal friend what more could I have asked for.
While it makes me sad that my time Kyai'u has come to end, I feel better knowing that he lived a life will lived and that my life greatly enriched by his being a part of it. He truely fufilledhis purpose as a dog.
Good dog Kyai'u.


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Entrepreneur Contests Take Practical Turn
Some Schools Shake Up Academic Rite of Passage by Requiring Students to Confront Nuts-and-Bolts Demands of a Start-Up
Less planning, more legwork. That's the formula some business schools are using to overhaul the competitions they conduct each year to test their students' mettle as entrepreneurs.
The contests, which have been an academic rite of passage for decades, typically involve teams of students submitting written business plans, then following up with a short presentation to a panel of judges. The winner might receive a cash prize of tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars and even the chance to mingle with potential...


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Product Description
Your little princess won't ever want to take this playgown off! It is made from a light weight Pique and Jersey with just the right amount of fabric for twirling, lounging and cuddling! Made from our original Live sweet print.
This listing is for a preorder of our playgown and will ship in 3-4 weeks
Printed from Live Sweet's Original designs
Care Instructions: Wash cold inside out, dry on low. Runs true to size.
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Back to Garage Door Question List
Garage Door Opener Electric Eye Troubleshooting
My opener doesn't work. I noticed that the light on the electric eyes was off. I know this is a safety feature, so I disconnected them, but the opener still will not work. It also does not work when I press the wall switch. What's wrong? Could the problem be in the wiring of the switch, too?
You are correct that the electric eyes (graphic left) are a safety feature, mandated by Federal law. But they are also required to be connected to the opener and adjusted properly or the garage door opener will not function. So reconnect them to the opener, and check their alignment. They should be pointing directly at each other. Sometimes this is all the repair that is necessary! Some electric eyes are very sensitive, and even if the light is on, they may need a subtle adjustment.
Most likely, the light was off BECAUSE they were not pointed towards each other, not because they were defective. Or, with some openers, both have lights but both only light if they are properly oriented!
If they are pointing directly at each other, their lights are is on, and the opener still will not function, then the problem is elsewhere. Disconnect the wires from the wall switch to the opener at the opener. Now try the remote control. If the opener activates, the diagnosis is that there is a short and/or bad connection in either the wall switch or in the wire leading from the switch to the opener. Use a multimeter to test the function of the switch and the continuity of the wires. If the opener still refuses to operate, you most likely have an electronic "bug" within the unit or the electric eyes themselves have malfunctioned. In either event you should contact a service person to troubleshoot the opener's circuits.


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The fire that devastated the wing housing the Individualized Manpower Training Systems program at Ely High School almost two months ago has nearly sent the program up in smoke.
``That fire affected everybody around this table,`` said Dandrilla Tyson, 23, sharing a wobbly desk with three classmates. ``We have to start all over again -- with nothing to work with.``
IMTS evaluates and tests adult and secondary school students before directing them into vocational careers. The program also offers tutoring in basic academic skills.
Students include over-age middle schoolers, high school dropouts, and adults looking to upgrade academic and professional skills for better jobs.
The program, which has moved temporarily into the city-owned Westside Recreation Center on Ely`s campus, is suffering from more than the lack of adequate accommodations; participants` morale is at an all-time low.
For students and faculty, being without a building or equipment makes the program almost non-existent.
Where 32 students once worked on video equipment, sewing machines and other training equipment, now about 14 use what few instructional materials are available or play games.
Some students, disheartened by the slow progress in finding a new building or rebuilding, have dropped out. More than half of the adult students have left, faculty members said.
``They just never came back,`` said Douglas Marshall, an IMTS instructor.`` We work with what we have.``
Tyson is paid a small hourly wage to attend the vocational education class as part of the Migrant Workers program. She and the 10 remaining class members said they would like to see the program restored as soon as possible.
But IMTS Director Willie Johnson said she had received no information as to when that might be.
The fire caused $300,000 in damages to equipment and $70,000 to the building, which has been boarded up. Fire officials said it was arson.


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Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
22-04-2012, 10:27 AM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2012 12:50 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(22-04-2012 09:43 AM)Blood Wrote: I think there had been a growing interest and desire for monotheism for a long time, and Judaism was the main and oldest known religion that preached monotheism.
Can't argue with your development of Christianity part, but the Jews were NOT monotheistic, at least up to and probably after the Babylonian exile, and maybe well after. The "Covenant" was not that they "believed" in one god, but that they would "worship" one god, (Yahweh- the "Lord of Hosts", or "god of the armies"), because he brought (they thought), Israel victory in battle. He had a wife, (Ashura), and the history of Israel is relplete with their "falling away" and worshiping the gods of their neighbors. The original idea of monotheism was Egyptian, (the Aten, or "sun god" ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten ), WAY before Second Isaiah insisted they worship only one god in Israel, and had the "scriptures" re-written, yet again, to reflect that. Granted the Egyptian "attempt" ended in failure,
Insufferable know-it-all. It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(22-04-2012 10:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:We've already discussed this several pages ago.(22-04-2012 09:43 AM)Blood Wrote: I think there had been a growing interest and desire for monotheism for a long time, and Judaism was the main and oldest known religion that preached monotheism.
22-04-2012, 03:58 PM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2012 04:57 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
I agree with Blood about the emergence of Christianity.
Here is how Paul did it...
Paul was a salesman with an ambitious agenda. He had a vision to expand his particular interpretation of Judaism into the gentile world, and he was convinced he knew how to do it. He had a cunning plan to undermine all those dangerous Nazarene beliefs that incited rebellion against Roman rule and, what's more, required obedience to cumbersome dictates.
He wrote to various groups scattered throughout the Empire, and desperately insisted they all believe only his theology. In Romans 15:16, he wrote that he thought of Gentiles as an offering he would bring to God. He was so obsessed with snaring converts that little else in his life mattered. Most of the people he wrote to were Gentiles (pagans) who were associated with Jewish synagogues, ("God-fearing Gentiles"), although he did
write to Jews too. From Paul's perspective, his patrons were in desperate need of direction and an authoritative, charismatic leader to look up to. He considered himself just the man. He knew how to win the hearts, minds, and souls of pagans because he thought he was one of the few god fearers who
understood Gentile cultures.
Paul's theology had a long and carefully thought out gestation. He was a salesman who knew his customers. His market was mainly, but not exclusively, gentile. He knew he needed a good product, something very
different to traditional Judaism. The Jews believed one had to be circumcised, a painful and embarrassing procedure, not easy to sell to an adult man. One was required to believe in a xenophobic Yahweh, a rather thunderous and reputedly violent pro-Jewish anti-gentile God. One could only eat kosher food, marry
someone Jewish, and had to stop all work on the Sabbath. Jewish heritage and history were to be regarded as superior to all others, and one was required to take part in the fasts and feasts celebrating the ancient epic of Israel. One was expected to believe Jews were destined to one day be the masters of the world. Paul knew that gentiles found all this inconvenient, irksome and out of touch with reality, so he labeled these rules and beliefs as a type of slavery. He knew he had to jettison them, so he did.
All of a sudden, according to Paul, there was no need for circumcision and no need to stop work on the Sabbath or to obey the dietary kosher rules. He downplayed the importance of the Jewish Temple. He ignored the idea of a political messiah of Israel and replaced him with Christ, the savior of all humankind. The "kingdom of God" became a place in heaven, not one in Israel. He claimed Yahweh was such a decent chap he had sent his own precious son to earth. He affirmed gentiles should be considered descendants of Abraham too. He called the centuries-old Jewish Law a "curse." He said all that was now required was faith in his story about Christ. Voilà! The Christ myth and Christian theology were born.
Paul was one of history's first examples of a power-hungry cult leader who, when the rules of the established religion were no longer convenient, simply invented new ones to suit himself. The so-called "old covenant" of the Jews was replaced by Paul's imaginary "new covenant." He was trying to reinvent Judaism and dampen down Jewish messianic dreams.
The following 1 user Likes Mark Fulton's post:1 user Likes Mark Fulton's post
houseofcantor (24-04-2012)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(22-04-2012 03:07 PM)Blood Wrote: We have already discussed this several pages ago.
No we haven't. Did we talk about it on another thread ?
Actually neither cultures were "montheistic". Both practiced a "utilitarian monolaterism", based on which, among the many gods, was most useful, to themselves, if they worshiped them. The Egyptias thought the Aten was "chief among many", and the reason the Hebrews settled on Yahweh Sabaoth, was because he was the "god of the armies", (the Lord of Hosts), and he was, among the many gods, the one most likely to provide the most help in their battles, if they worshiped him.
Insufferable know-it-all. It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(21-04-2012 01:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:In my experience and opinion, human kind tends to be pretty keen on documenting everything. Now what you are saying is that for 70 years or so not one person thought to find some chap to write this down?(21-04-2012 12:40 PM)Antirepublican Wrote: My point is, Jesus, the guy whose story didn't show up until like 150AD
I mean this is the son of god we're talking about here, that would be a pretty important thing to document if you ask me.
But nothing was written, nothing. According to you it was just a giant 70year long game of Chinese whispers. Have you ever played Chinese whispers?
It would be like us just hearing about WW2 now. It doesn't make sense. I mean yes you are valid in saying that people around him couldn't write, but nobody could for 70years?
Do you see how far fetched this is? The son of god, on earth. That is kinda a big deal you don't keep hush hush about.
So what is more likely, that Jesus's tale was told in a giant game of Chinese whispers style and then some 70 or so years later someone thought it may be important to write it down.
That someone hears these stories about Horrus and the others etc.., hears the same story about born to a virgin, star in the east, crucified, resurrected 3 days later, saw that it was a pretty nifty story and so decided to write it down just make up some characters. Afterall, it happened 70 or so years ago, seems pretty convenient that nobody who would have been in these locations would have still been alive if you ask me.
And putting all that aside, if somehow you can prove he was a real person that goes in absolutely no way to proving that he was truly some son of a god.
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(23-04-2012 01:15 AM)earmuffs Wrote:Hi earmuff, I basically agree with you. It is bizarre that no contemporary historian writings about him have survived. It is obvious that the Jeebus story has borrowed ideas from other cults. And he wasn't the son of God. I still, however, think there may have been a figure the gospels were very loosely based on. Remember that Christians were damn good at destroying evidence that didn't fit their manufactured story. Note that James and John the baptist were recorded as genuine characters by non Christian historians. Note that there was a Jewish group called the Nazarenes whose numbers have been estimated at 8000 in the 60's who were led by James, probably Jesus' brother. They had their own gospel, which may have been incorporated into Matthew. They survived until about the 5th century, were not Christians, and their leaders were said to be related to Jeebus. Remember Paul wrote about Peter and James. Note too that no less a brain than Christopher Hitchens pointed out that if Jeebus was totally manufactured, the story would likely be that he grew up in Bethlehem, not Galilee.(21-04-2012 01:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Great.In my experience and opinion, human kind tends to be pretty keen on documenting everything. Now what you are saying is that for 70 years or so not one person thought to find some chap to write this down?
Having said this, the Jeebus we know from the gospels is obviously (?about 90%) manufactured. And yes, I am just guessing that figure. And yes, I may be wrong, he may be 100% fictional.
23-04-2012, 03:29 AM (This post was last modified: 23-04-2012 05:34 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
http://ia600309.us.archive.org/15/items/...e-life.mp3 (one of a series).
There were many sons of god. There is no "THE" son of god. It was a common title. There were many itinerant apocalypic preachers running around. He was one among many. Each of the elements of the mythological system which developed about him have specific, individual histories, and developmental contexts. It's not a simple matter. Why would anyone "write it down" ? If they did, where would they write it ? If someone did, where would that be available to be read ? Do you actually know "why" the gospels were written, and how they were used, when they actually were written ? BTW, you're wrong about the "70" number. It was 35 years between his exection, to the Q source, at the most, and oral tradtion was the common way they communicated. You need to look at other cultural contexts without your 2012 worldview, and 3rd Grade Sunday-school level of knowledge.
Insufferable know-it-all. It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(23-04-2012 02:21 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote: Note that James and John the baptist were recorded as genuine characters by non Christian historians.It's well documented that the author of Acts used Josephus as a source. Now I'm beginning to think that all of the NT writers used Jo. They lifted John the Baptist and James from him. Perhaps Jesus was lifted as well?
Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!"
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(23-04-2012 03:29 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: http://ia600309.us.archive.org/15/items/...e-life.mp3 (one of a series).It is a simple matter. The fact is that this story/myth/legend was told time and time again. Right down to the exact details about virgin mother, star in the east, three dudes, 12 disciples, crucified and resurrected 3 days after death.
Green apple, red apple at the end of the day they're all apples.
The main point being that these things about Jesus are what is rammed down everybody's throats. These are suppose to be the proof more or less. BUT, these details happened a thousand times before to a thousand different people. Just substitute Egyptian god for Christian one (more or less). It truly is that simple. The myth about Jesus is just a retold myth taken from other cultures and religions.
Why would anyone write it down? Its Jesus. Its sorta a big deal. If somebody could write it down 35 or however many years later, they could write it down at any point between him being alive and that 35 years. But they didn't. Of all the things they wrote down during Jesus being alive and that 35years, I can not fathom how Jesus is not one of them. All it would take is a small note craved into a school desk ya know, "Jesus was here 5AD" (simplified of course). But nothing, nadda, zero. Yes I understand word of mouth was the craze of the time, BUT ITS JESUS. You make an exception for the biggest thing in the biggest thing in your life.
The gospels were written by the apostles because they wanted to preserve the memory/story of Jesus.
So why wait 35years?? Remember what I said before, Chinese whispers. Even if he was real, what parts were really real? Myth has a tendency to creep into these things, make the story sound bigger and better then what it was. "he was 5" tall, no no!, 20" tall!!!!".
And some people believe the gospels to be written by the disciples of Jesus himself, which if true, why not do it when he's alive!!!??? or at least when he died, not some 35years later.
Religion was power back then so if you have this story like Jesus then you're gonna get a bit of attention. And the story had been proven to be well received by the public just looking at past cultures and religions with the exact same story.
You know what the gospels about Jesus are? Plagiarism.
23-04-2012, 08:52 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2012 04:24 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(23-04-2012 08:22 PM)earmuffs Wrote: It is a simple matter. The fact is that this story/myth/legend was told time and time again. Right down to the exact details about virgin mother, star in the east, three dudes, 12 disciples, crucified and resurrected 3 days after death.
It's not a simple matter, because you say so. If you insist on a simpleton's view, that's your choice. As Mark has said, (detailed) deconstruction leads to the destruction of the myth. Chosing to ignore the complexities of the development process because you are too lazy to spend the time and energy to learn about it, is your problem. There are no "exact" details. Only a mush of appropriated myths, different in every text, pulled in, each for it's own reason. If you NEED simplicity, fine. That's all you get. The FACT is, there was a complex development process which is enlightening. So stay in your simple world. Everything will be all nice, and simple for ya. If you were a Jew in 70 AD, what exactly would you write it with, and on what ? A legal pad ? On your iPod ? On your dirt floor ? During your free time after work ? After the sheep were fed ? If it was taken from other cultures and myths, (which parts of it were), tell us EXACTLY which ones, why and when ? They wouldn't write about Jesus, if he WEREN'T a "big deal" until later ? You really think they had "school desks" in 35 AD ? He wasn't "the biggest thing" in their lives, until the myth had become full blown, if even then. You actually think the everyday person "wrote stuff" then ? You really need a course in Ancient History. If they were "plagiarized", please enlighten us. Name the sources. Who told you the gosples were "written to preserve his memory". In fact most scholars do not buy that. They were written as liturgical texts, for the purpose of worship. "Proclaiming" the gospel. Ever hear that ? The Christian sub-culture of Judaism had NO power. No historian would agree with that. The fact is, you have constructed a simplistic picture for yourself, that just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. And the gospels, (the 4 in the present canon), were certainly NOT written by the "Apostles". Do you even know what the sources are ? The the gospels of Judas, Peter, James, Mary, The Letters of Paul and Tekla, .. they were all plagiarised too, Ok. So...they were plagiared...by the Apostles...to preserve his memory...alrighty then. The moon is made of green cheese, cuz I said so.
Insufferable know-it-all. It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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Chart stars Coldplay were honoured yesterday as songwriters of the year at top music event the Ivor Novello awards.
The band were praised for their chart-topping second album A Rush of Blood to the Head, and the prize comes in the wake of a double Brits win earlier in the year.
Solo star David Gray took the title for best song of the year with his hit The Other Side, beating Oasis's Stop Crying Your Heart Out and Aqualung's Strange and Beautiful.
Coldplay, who were unable to attend the event in London, were beaten to the prize for best contemporary song by The Streets - aka Mike Skinner - for his single Weak Become Heroes.
Skinner has won huge critical acclaim for his debut album Original Pirate Material, but until now has largely failed to translate that into awards.
He also triumphed over Ms Dynamite for the contemporary song prize.
The Ivors are an annual celebration of songwriting and this year honoured a number of luminaries for their achievements. Tyneside's Bryan Ferry was honoured for his outstanding contribution to British music.
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