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Thursday, February 4, 2010
"Red Box" Thoughts
First, let me get an irrational rant out of the way: I hate the term "red box" as a synonym for "introductory-level D&D" with a passion equal to that many have for the term "old school." I'm not quite sure why it bugs me so, but it does. Perhaps it's because "red box" is generally meant to refer not to the 1981 Moldvay-edited Basic Rulebook with the rockin' Otus cover but to the 1983 Mentzer-edited one with the anatomically-challenged Elmore cover, which I dislike. As I say, it's irrational and I recognize it as such.
Without having seen the game, I'd say that, on the face of it, WotC is taking a step in the right direction. There is a definite need for a simple, straightforward introduction to Dungeons & Dragons. That such an introduction could be bought in toy and "big box" retail stores is essential if one's goal is attracting a new generation of gamers unconnected with the existing hobby. So, bravo to WotC for the high concept behind this boxed "starter set."
Of course, the actual contents and execution of the product will ultimately prove more important than the high concept and it's here that I'd like to know more. For instance, is this a complete game? That is, is it something one could conceivably play for many months without exhausting its possibilities? The web page linked above notes that it includes "rules for character creation," which makes me happy, since past WotC starter sets haven't included them, thereby limiting their utility. How many levels does this new starter set cover? I've seen conflicting reports on this score and I hope that the levels 1-5 range I'd seen earlier is more accurate than the levels 1-2 I'm seeing now. Just as important is the leveling curve -- how long would it take, if used as written, for a character to reach the "level cap" of the starter kit? These are important considerations.
I noticed that the starter kit includes only the "classic" races (dwarf, elf, halfling, human) and classes (cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard). For a variety of reasons, I like these choices, but it does make the notion that D&D IV expanded beyond "traditional fantasy" in order to appeal to gamers whose experience of the genre is different somewhat questionable. If, as is often claimed, "there's more to fantasy than Appendix N," then why does the starter kit for the current iteration of the game go back to those OD&D staples? It's an interesting question and it makes me wonder who the intended target audience for the starter kit really is.
Ultimately, though, what really matters is what the rules of the starter kit are like and how they're presented. I can't imagine that they're anything other than slightly simplified versions of D&D IV's rules, which, if so, hold no appeal for me. I've read D&D IV and it just doesn't speak to me; a starter kit with a different presentation won't change that. That said, I do think WotC's game could use with a better introduction than the three massive hardcover tomes they're selling now. If this starter set fills that role successfully, then it'll have served its purpose well.
Mind you, my feeling remains, as it has since the D&D III era, that WotC made a big mistake by casting aside the "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons" brand name. Had I been in charge, I'd have created a couple of stripped down but complete Dungeons & Dragons boxed sets that one could play profitably without the need for anything else. Then, I'd have created a parallel line of Advanced D&D hardcover books, adventures, and supplements that expanded on the concepts of the boxed sets and were geared toward the hardcore audience of the game. The boxed sets would hew very closely to the classical outlines of D&D as it was in 1974 in terms of classes, races, monsters, and general inspiration.
The advanced line could deviate more, incorporating greater complexity and a wider range of inspirations. Speaking for myself, I never had a problem with tieflings or dragonborn or whatever as PC races; what bugged me is that they were elevated to the same foundational status as dwarves and elves. The same goes for new classes, spells, etc. D&D has always taken inspiration from anything and everything, in the process broadening its appeal. But the foundation needs to be largely unchanging and recognizably Gygaxo-Arnesonian. If it's not, then (for me anyway), we're talking about a different game than the one that first introduced me to this hobby. I already have plenty of those and they're not what I turn to when I want to play D&D.
That's one of the biggest reasons D&D IV holds no appeal for me and likely won't, even after the release of this new "red box." I hope it does well for WotC and achieves its goals, whatever they may be. However, if one of those goals is getting me to give the game a second look, I'd be amazed if it succeeded, but, hey, if someone wants to send me a copy, I'd be willing to give a fair shake.
71 comments:
If the aim is to bring in new people to the hobby, then I really hope that WoTC succeeds. The hobby needs new blood to keep it going.ReplyDelete
It'd be nice if it were levels 1-5, although it looks like they are releasing a Dungeon Master's Kit box set that goes levels 1-30.
The way 4th is from a look over, I'd say it's not my cup of tea, but I haven't played it so I can't pass any judgement on it.
I thought it was pretty neat that they are also coming out with a new Rules Cyclopedia as well.
Oh, did anyone see Gamma World Legion of Gold?
It's worth noting that this is the second starter kit for 4E. The first included a brief 16 page manual, dice, counters, and just one short adventure. (No, I don't own it.) It doesn't appear to have any rules for character creation from what I can tell. Looking at the cover of this older version up against the new one, I'd have to say it's pretty clear that Wizards is trying to reclaim not just the term "Red Box" but the so-called meaning behind it.ReplyDelete
Sorry, I meant to say that there's a 16 page starter guide AND a 64 page DM manual in the first 4E starter set.ReplyDelete
From a business standpoint, it's pretty straightforward. Without the box sets of the early 80s I don't think D&D would have gathered the following it did, so it stands to reason that they need a boxed set today.ReplyDelete
Regardless of how I feel about the ruleset, I'm glad to see Hasbro take an interest in securing a future for PnP D&D.
And Gamma World? A resounding, fist pumping, YES!!! I'm stoked like I haven't been in years.
I guess back in the end 90ies when 3rd edition was being developed,WoC were not eager to experiment with 2 different brands.ReplyDelete
I know have a lot more affection for Elmore, Parkinson, and the rest of the 80s artists than you, but I was tickled by your mention of liking Erol Otus, immediately followed by a dismissal of Elmore's red box cover as "anatomically-challenged". I mean, Otus is cool and all, but anatomical accuracy isn't exactly his forte, either. :)ReplyDelete
I have to disagree about splitting D&D/AD&D. I definitely remember a sense among players in the old days that D&D was "kids' stuff" and only AD&D was "real D&D" -- a perception TSR reinforced in a variety of ways.ReplyDelete
I agree with your idea of "core" and "expanded" (my words, not yours, though I hope I've caught your point correctly) rules. That also avoids the compatability problem of having two parallel products, such as D&D/AD&D.
This is the first I've heard of it, and as a 4e adherent and a student of the old ways I am enthusiastic both coming and going. I know what some people are gettin' for Christmas this year.ReplyDelete
I've long said that the biggest mistake TSR/WOTC has made in the last 25 years, an ongoing one, is to not have a product of this ilk available. I have to respect someone for trying ti fix that at this time.ReplyDelete
I'll call it a shame that it's based on 4E.
Will the new 'red box' include random/collectible 'power cards'? Sorry. I couldn't resist...ReplyDelete
Hey, take a look at the WoC page for upcoming products. The Essential D&D boxed set is followed by quite a few paperback books:ReplyDelete
-Dungeon Masters Kit box with 256page book + 2 x32 page adventures + goodies
-Heroes of the Fallen Lands 352 pages
- Monster Vault box with 256 book + 32 page adventure + goodies
-Heroes of the forgotten Kindom 352 pages
they call it the "essential D&D Supplement" line.
This either means a steep learning curve for beginning players with all these supplements
This is 4.5 through the backdoor...
You certainly make some very good points and I am pleased to see you weighing in on this.
I also had some thoughts on my site (with pictures!)
Yes. I dislike the 83 Basic set and feel the superior 81 Basic (Erol Otis cover) gets slighted. I don't even own the later basic set and I have everything else.
That all being said this is a step in the right direction for WotC.
My wife and kids want to play D&D and they love all the trappings of 4th Ed. This Basic set is perfect for them.
I know 4e is not everyones bag and that is cool. But this at least is some evidence that WotC does see what is going on in OSR as a viable marketing option.
And really. As long as more people are playing and having fun then everyone wins.
It does beg the question of what you think of Dragon Age (the RPG, not the computer game), which has much the same philosophy in creating an introduction to the hobby, and is being marketed in four boxes (each with an expanse of five levels of character).ReplyDelete
"There is a definite need for a simple, straightforward introduction to Dungeons & Dragons."ReplyDelete
I agree. When ordinary people (non-role-players) buy a new game, they tacitly expect the rules of the game to fit on the back cover of the box. I can't imagine what it must be like for a complete newbie to flip through one of the 4E core rulebooks and try to make heads or tails out of it. Many outsiders have the impression that D&D is this ridiculously complex game that requires a baroque encyclopedia of rules. D&D has suffered from this image problem probably since the 1E hardcovers came out.
As far as what the introductory boxed set will cover, everything I heard from people at the presentation at the D&D Experience convention last week is that the char gen rules cover levels 1-5 (and just the four core races and classes you mentioned). The "red box" moniker is not the only call back to the 1983 boxed set - the cover art is STRONGLY reminiscent of that box, both in terms of presentation and content.ReplyDelete
To the poster above who mentions the follow up books and asks if this is "D&D 4.5" the answer is no. The follow up books basically present the remaining races and classes and DM options that have been published over 4e's lifespan, covering levels all the way up to 30. Still definitely the same game.
According to this thread on ENWorld:ReplyDelete
...the box will only cover levels 1 and 2.
Given the differing advancement rates between editions, you're talking about 4 or 5 sessions of gaming with this box versus 12 to 15 sessions of gaming with the three old Basic box sets.
From the WOTC web siteReplyDelete
"The box takes players from 1st level through 2nd level with a limited selection of options and choices."
a crying shame it is only 2 levels not exactly a way to get someone hooked, 1-5 would have got me to purchase this.
but the Gamma World box set sounds like a must have, the 4e rules lend them selves to crazy powers and gonzo action.
- AnonymousFebruary 4, 2010 at 12:55 PM
More accessibility is good. Just a shame its gotta be 4e that new players are introduced to. If my first experience with RPGs was bland, over powered, perfectly balanced, and 1" grid based like 4e I doubt I would still be playing today.ReplyDelete
I would likely pick it up, just out of curiosity (and to give it a whirl), if it was levels 1-3 or 1-5, and was relatively complete.ReplyDelete
It seems to me, WOTC still has time to do the right thing here...
As the box set will only cover progression up to level 2 (what is that, 10 'encounters'?), it looks like yet another piece of 'crippleware' from WotC. Pity.ReplyDelete
The boxed set includes a solo adventure, presumably similar to the CYOA style adventure in the Mentzer Basic set. That's fantastic!ReplyDelete
That it only covers levels 1 and 2? That's terrible.
I wonder the motivation here was more (a) attract new players, or (b) lure back old-schoolers? The business case would seem to argue (a), but the trade dress seems to argue (b). Of course, there's also maybe (c) get old-schoolers to buy it for new players.ReplyDelete
A while back when I made a case for a small intro box set on ENWorld (incl. character generation, etc., etc., which should go without saying), I was confronted with an argument that it was "physically impossible to do that with the current ruleset". Possibly we're seeing that limitation with 4E, that the material necessary for just levels 1-2 fills the whole box.
Jay: "It's worth noting that this is the second starter kit for 4E"ReplyDelete
Actually, this is the THIRD starter product for 4E, if you count the module "Keep on the Shadowfell" (H1). H1 was released before any of the 4E rulebooks. Designed for characters level 1-3, it included 16 pages of "Quick Start Rules." Personally, I would love to see *all* RPG publications follow this model -- no rulebooks, just meaty adventures and/or settings with the "rules" confined to appendices.
If the boxed set covers levels 1-5 I'm likely to pick it up from Amazon at the $13.xx price. If it's only levels 1-2 I definitely won't. Currently you've got Dragon Age and Hackmaster Basic giving you levels 1-5. It would make sense for WoTC to do levels 1-5 at $10 lower than Dragon Age and even priced with Hackmaster but a boxed set instead of stand alone book.ReplyDelete
@Iaowai, true, but I think we're talking box sets here, are we not? IIRC, Shadowfell was a shrink-wrapped folder of materials.ReplyDelete
Tim, you said most people malign Moldvay/Cook Basic D&D?ReplyDelete
Could you mention where?
According to most RPG sites Moldvay/Cook is the most holy of holy Basic D&D sets and anything with OMG ELLLLLMMOOOORE artwork is some soulless corporate pile of butt.
(And the usual WOOOAH OTUS RULEZ DUDE! deal. Yeah his monsters are wonderfully goopy, but he should never EVER be allowed to draw anything human as at best his people pictures look like what one might have seen at the original Woodstock after taking the brown Acid.)
The whole bashing of Mentzer D&D by the OSR crowd is one reason its hard to actually want much to do with that crowd.
I just don't get it, and don't want to.
WOTC web site describes The players book is 32 pages the DM's book is 64 pages.ReplyDelete
3 extra levels in 4E if you are limiting the power selection should only take up 1 page at most, thats 4 extra pages, add in an extra page of feats to give more choices and you are at 5 pages.
you would need to add some tougher monsters to the DM guide (or a seperate 32 page monster book) more magic items, ect, but still cut some fluff, use smaller pictures, reduce white space, smaller font, if they wanted to they could.
"not to the 1981 Moldvay-edited Basic Rulebook with the rockin' Otus cover"ReplyDelete
You can call me a "purple box" gamer...
I somehow managed to buy my B/X books without any boxes. I liked that they were pre-punched for putting in a 3-ring binder, so you'd combine them into a single book. :)ReplyDelete
- AnonymousFebruary 4, 2010 at 7:26 PM
A step in the right direction for WotC. I have long said that their business model over the past 10 years of ignoring a sizable minority of hobbyists by refusing to release a "Rules-Light" version of their flavor of the month was going to hurt them in the rear. Apparently, my assumption was correct.ReplyDelete
When I was pretty-much forced (by default) to play/run 3.5 several years back (an experience which lasted a year at most), that little endeavor set me back $100.00+. I said "never again" to purchasing WotC products. And promptly sold the books & picked up some 1E goodies I was missing with the credit I received.
With that being said, I have had the (questionable) curiosity to give 4E a try. The only thing stopping me was the astronomical price of $30.00+ per book. No way. But with this boxed set, especially one containing character creation, I can finally give it a whirl & see what I think. I already have plans in place to NOT purchase any of the add-on rules, preferring to play with the mechanics presented & see what I can do make it my own.
I can say with certainty that the new "Red-Box" won't be derailing my love affair with OD&D, Basic D&D (yes, I am apparently one of the heretical few who LOVES the Mentzer set), or AD&D1E, but I'm willing to give it a chance.
Who knows? With a few house-rules to extrapolate the levels & play presented in this boxed set, my players & I might just enjoy it.
I have to give WotC an "E" for effort. But I won't be holding my breath for an "Old-School" release anytime soon...
"I mean, Otus is cool and all, but anatomical accuracy isn't exactly his forte, either. :)"ReplyDelete
No, it's not, but I don't know anyone who lauds Otus for his "realism," whereas Elmore frequently is praised for that. Plus, that particular Elmore piece is terrible, certainly not the man's best.
@Captain Rufus:ReplyDelete
The Golden Age is before Elmore. Everything after the end of the Golden Age is a debased era where men have lost all virtue.
Its really as simple as that, and a big reason why this whole talk of a Golden Age (or really any Golden Age) has always struck me as bullshit.
Some of that Golden Age stuff isn't that good, and some of the stuff that came after has been great.
I have to disagree about splitting D&D/AD&D. I definitely remember a sense among players in the old days that D&D was "kids' stuff" and only AD&D was "real D&D" -- a perception TSR reinforced in a variety of ways.ReplyDelete
This is, I think, another case of where we shouldn't let ourselves be straitjacketed by the hamfisted execution of an idea by TSR. Properly handled, I don't think the non-advanced version of D&D would have to be viewed as a "kiddie" game.
It does beg the question of what you think of Dragon Age (the RPG, not the computer game), which has much the same philosophy in creating an introduction to the hobby, and is being marketed in four boxes (each with an expanse of five levels of character).ReplyDelete
I haven't seen Dragon Age, so I can't really comment. I like what I've heard about it, but whether it'll be to my liking is hard to say without reading it.
Given the differing advancement rates between editions, you're talking about 4 or 5 sessions of gaming with this box versus 12 to 15 sessions of gaming with the three old Basic box sets.ReplyDelete
Yeah, that's the rub of it for me.
I somehow managed to buy my B/X books without any boxes. I liked that they were pre-punched for putting in a 3-ring binder, so you'd combine them into a single book. :)ReplyDelete
Yes, I got my B/X books without a box too -- and I kept them in my "DM's binder" for years, even though I was playing AD&D almost exclusively.
So even if this Red Box has levels 1-5, that's still not good enough?ReplyDelete
I have thought for a long time that "introductory boxed sets" were some kind of no-win scenario for awhile now, and the reactions in this thread, and to the Dragon Age boxed set elsewhere, just confirm that.
Gamers always yell that no one releases boxed sets, that some company (Wizards, Green Ronin, whomever) need to "build the hobby".
Leaving aside for a moment that "building the hobby" sounds like secret code for "you're going to lose money on this complete introductory boxed set", whenever someone actually DOES invest that money, all they get is condescending comments about how their boxed set isn't "complete enough".
Some of that Golden Age stuff isn't that good, and some of the stuff that came after has been great.ReplyDelete
Seriously: who says otherwise? Certainly not I, nor pretty much anyone in the old school community. There's lots of differing opinions over various products from the Golden Age, with no one I have ever encountered claiming that good products simply ceased to be after 1983 or that everything produced before that point was undiluted goodness. Nor does anyone claim that every piece Otus or Tramp did was a work of art or that everything Elmore and Parkinson touched was garbage.
Is there lots of criticism for the very real shift in the content and style of D&D products after 1983 or so? Definitely. But that's a far cry from the notion that old schoolers are a hive mind whose opinions are completely without basis. You may disagree with those opinions and for good reasons of your own, but let's not suggest that anyone who believes that, by and large, D&D products went downhill after a certain point is some kind of fun-hating Grinch.
all they get is condescending comments about how their boxed set isn't "complete enough".ReplyDelete
You have to remember that, for many advocates of boxed intro RPGs, they're using the games from the 70s and 80s as models. Those games were often complete in a single box, without the need for expansions or supplements of any kind. By that standard, most of today's boxed sets feel very halfhearted.
James: Yes, the original Red Box was amazingly complete. The company that made it, and most of the companies that tried to imitate that company wound up declaring bankruptcy.ReplyDelete
For gamers interested in "growing the hobby", I think that's worth remembering.
The reason why introductory boxed sets are a hard sell, I suspect, is that they lose money.
And I'm sure it doesn't make it easier for companies to spend that money when it doesn't even engender any good will among the fans.
Make a product that loses money so someone can say you didn't do it well enough?
No thanks.
The company that made it, and most of the companies that tried to imitate that company wound up declaring bankruptcy.ReplyDelete
TSR didn't go bankrupt because of losing money on boxed intro games, though. Their business mistakes were legion, but this wasn't one of them. Indeed, it could be reasonably argued that dropping the boxed intro games contributed significantly to TSR's ultimate demise.
James: Red Box was a huge success for TSR.ReplyDelete
But, as we all know, and as we all regret (to varying degrees) it couldn't stay 1979 forever.
Every boxed set a company (ANY company) makes is a big financial investment and thus a big risk.
Again- if introductory boxed sets made money today, one wouldn't need to cajole companies into making them, would they?
It can't stay 2009 forever either. :)ReplyDelete
"I have thought for a long time that "introductory boxed sets" were some kind of no-win scenario for awhile now, and the reactions in this thread, and to the Dragon Age boxed set elsewhere, just confirm that."ReplyDelete
No, the reactions on this thread confirm nothing, except the largely-ignored ruminations of a tiny subset-of-a-subset of D&D enthusiasts: a tempest in a teaspoon.
If you're looking for the alternative view, that the new red-box will be a huge popular and financial success, and is the RPG equivalent of the second coming of our lord, you will find that in spades over at the WOTC website.
Have no fear: the managers at WOTC will make money on this release, or get the traditional WOTC pre-Christmas pink-slips.
Frankly, i'm not sure why it matters whether we like the new WOTC red-box or not.
Word verification: crazatio
"Frankly, i'm not sure why it matters whether we like the new WOTC red-box or not."ReplyDelete
Your wondering is incomplete: to whom does it matter? Why, to us of course. This is the blogosphere; if there needed to be another reason to write about something the bloggertubes wouldn't exist.
@Chuck: There are only two complaints about this boxed set that I've seen. The first is a legitimate critique of execution: including only levels 1 and 2 is crazy. The second is a matter of taste: it is bittersweet that the revival of the boxed set that the OSR has been advocating happens to contain a system not to most of their taste.
Those are legitimate complaints at the same time that commentors are lauding the mere existence of the boxed set. So really, I think you protest too much.
I counted the pages in my 4e PHB as writen: cleric thru 5th level 6pages, fighter thru 5th level 5pages, thief thru 5th level 5pages, wizard thru 5th level 6 pages.ReplyDelete
all of the 1-10th level feats only take up 10 pages. (you could cut a lot of the racial and class based feats for races and classes not included in the box set)
by uping the players guide by 32 pages you easily could have included everything for 1-5th level.
i think a 24.95 price point for 5 levels would get a lot more people to buy this, but I run hotels not gaming companies.
Regarding Dragon Age:ReplyDelete
Bias: I love this game and was playtester for it.
I have read a lot of the comments and complaints that were raised because the first box "only" encompasses 5 levels.
These complaints were all from experienced gamers!
The Players Guide is 64pages and includes a lot of background information on the Dragon Age World.
The Gamemasters Guide also has 64pages and includes an adventure.
@ James: I am pretty sure that you would like the mechanics of DA. They are so "open" that you basically can create new races and classes on the fly or tweak existing ones. You really should give this game a whirl (even if you don't care for the Setting).
When I was 11-16 the boxed sets were always a visceral purchase. What got me hooked was high-impact cover art and the fact that it was self-contained. The biggest factor in bonding me to the game was always a well-written adventure. I never would have considered the number of sessions, levels, or anything else.ReplyDelete
Hold it. Didn't Moldvay only go up to third level?ReplyDelete
I love that Wizards are releasing an introductory boxed set to D&D again, and that it has a red box, harking back to their old TSR days.ReplyDelete
A step in the right direction.
I'm not sure where people are getting this 1-2 level thing from though, sounds like typical anti-WOTC stuff to me which I just can't join in on. I enjoy a lot of what WOTC have done, from the Baldurs Gate games to D&D games even on the Nintendo DS. Some great adventures have been published under them.
Anyhow, lets not become a bunch of fanatics who hate for hates sake. When WOTC do something good, we should applaud it, imho.
Ok rant over lol
The box set covering only levels 1-2 is documented fact, straight out of Bill Slavicsek's mouth in the latest Ampersand column of Dragon. It's not a rumor or people trying to stir the pot.ReplyDelete
I like 4E and AD&D & basic D&D for very different reasons. While I really like the idea of the new box set and have contemplated about buying it for my 8-year-old for Christmas 2010. I think he would love it and since I already own the core books anyways so the down side of the product isn't an issue.
Which of course does bring up the down side - the level 1-2 is ridiculous IMO because you're talking about 2-3 sessions (assuming you use the standard 8 encounters = 1 level, and you get through 3 encounters per session) before the box is no longer usable. That to me is ridiculous and borders on being a "bait & switch."
I've seen a number of people bring up that the original "red" box only covered levels 1-3, but they are either ignoring or ignorant of the fact that the pace of advancement was much slower and the structure of the game is such that you simply can't stretch out the game in any meaningful way to get more out of it - it's ridiculous that you can't even use the box set to play Keep on the Shadowfell, the free introductory 4E module, all the way through.
- AnonymousFebruary 5, 2010 at 8:16 AM
Hold it. Didn't Moldvay only go up to third level?ReplyDelete
Yes, but mine included Keep on the Borderlanmds (I know earlier versions had B1 don't know how that compares)and that module has loads of gameplay packed into it, it takes many a session. to exhaust all the possibilities in B2
Going from 1st to 2nd in 4e takes 10 encounters. That will last about 2-3 sessions.
Recursion King said: "I enjoy a lot of what WOTC have done, from the Baldurs Gate games..."ReplyDelete
Bioware designed the Baldur's Gate games, not WotC (WotC simply was the license holder). Give credit where it's due! :)
Anyone curious about the previous presentation of 'Basic 4e' can read the 4e Quick Start rules (lvls 1-3 with minimal treatment of some mechanics and no chargen) for free right here. Keep on the Shadowfell, the 4e riff on Keep on the Borderlands, is similarly available for free here. And the Character Builder, the handy-dandy digital chargen tool, is available for free in lvl1-3 form right here.ReplyDelete
"Bioware designed the Baldur's Gate games, not WotC (WotC simply was the license holder). Give credit where it's due! :"ReplyDelete
Good distinction there Akrasia and one definitely worth remembering, but the distinction is not as deeply dividing as you think... for Wizards of the Coast must approve the content for the games or the games will not be published, bearing their logo and the publishers will lose the right to the Dungeons and Dragons license.
"Going from 1st to 2nd in 4e takes 10 encounters. That will last about 2-3 sessions."
Not to defend them here, but knowing that, if I picked it up, I would slow the rate of experience down to get more value from the product and maybe even invent my own content to scale past level 2, as I'm a pretty creative DM. A couple of options there that no one has yet (to my knowledge) even considered.
Leveling up in 4e takes aroun 10 encounters. Therefore, this boxset is good for about 20 encounters worth of gameplay, and unless you're going from fight to fight without more than the shortest of pauses, I could see that filling a good ten sessions easily. That's plenty of time for just about anyone I can think of to raise 20 bucks and buy the book bringing them through the rest of the levels, and frankly that's two weeks longer than it's EVER taken me to run Keep on the Borderlands.ReplyDelete
I'm a little bummed that the boxset only offers such a small taste, but I realize that it's not for me primarily, it's for new players. With that in mind, I intend to buy a copy for just about everyone I know come this Christmas.
@ Narmer,ReplyDelete
Yes, Moldvay went to only 3rd-level, but the Basic set was closely followed up with the Cook's Expert box, which went to level 14 (IIRC).
While the Basic box was an intro set, it was less of a risk, IMO, because A) it paralleled AD&D so TSR could mitigate overall loss, and B) it fed seamlessly into the equally accessible Expert rules.
This is where Moldvay really took a different direction from Holmes. The latter was not only an attempt to organise the content of the previous D&D books, but also serve as an intro to AD&D. Moldvay's Basic was really more of a rewrite of the Holmes edit, probably as another intro. But my theory is that it became more compelling as its own game.
I'm not bashing WOTC, I pay for the D&D insider even though I have played 4e once (more money than sense i guess), and i will be picking up Gammma World, but 5th level in 4e is a great goal. even if the casual player won't get that far using only the basic set the idea that it is there is a motivation in itself.ReplyDelete
I remember looking at the 2nd level spells in my "Purple Box" and dreaming of the day i could cast them, even if my brother had already bought the expert set well before I made 3rd level the idea that i could grow kept my 7 year old brain interested in playing.
when i first read about this new redbox i invisioned breaking this out over christmas break with my bother and brother in law, or on a long ski weekend with friends. sure we wouldn't probably make it past 2nd level but the idea that we could reach mighty 5th level would help fuel the game.
Don't forget, if kids are suppose to play this, they have more time than adults do for gaming. I bet they can finish the whole thing in one weekend.ReplyDelete
"Not to defend [WotC] here, but knowing that, if I picked it up, I would slow the rate of experience down to get more value from the product..."ReplyDelete
In my group's experience, ten encounters can take as long as six or even seven sessions, depending on how roleplay-heavy we get (and how much drinking happens before the session). It's a bit silly to assume that 4e encounters, with their greatly increased *complexity* over earlier models, should be as numerous as e.g. Basic D&D encounters, which lack 4e's (unpalatable to some) tactical complexity due to their quite different abstraction model.
- AnonymousFebruary 5, 2010 at 7:23 PM
Leveling up in 4e takes aroun 10 encounters. Therefore, this boxset is good for about 20 encounters worth of gameplay, and unless you're going from fight to fight without more than the shortest of pauses, I could see that filling a good ten sessions easily.ReplyDelete
The box covers level 1-2 that's 10 encounters.
I can only go on my own experience I ran 4e when it first came out (so just the three core books) roleplay medium (we like the game part) and 1 Skill Challenge to every 2 combats (The skill challanges are my favourite part of teh game). The ten encounters took two 4 hour(ish) sessions.
It would be possible to slow things down and string it out, also possible to come up with your own content to expand it but that's the same for any game so not really an issue.
Not to defend them here, but knowing that, if I picked it up, I would slow the rate of experience down to get more value from the product and maybe even invent my own content to scale past level 2, as I'm a pretty creative DM. A couple of options there that no one has yet (to my knowledge) even considered.ReplyDelete
I think you've missed the point - the box set is designed for beginners, new to the game. How many beginners are going to say "you know, these rules will have us advancing too fast so I'll just disregard them and hand out fewer XP."? None. In fact, it' antithetical to the whole concept to consider a "creative DM" will be involved. Aside from that point, why should you have to hack/house rule a game you just bought so you can play it for more than a few hours?
Regarding the "original D&D only went to level 3" point some have raised, many are ignoring the fact that TSR released at least 10 modules (B1 through B10) that supported that level of play. WotC has practically none (as I mentioned earlier, the box set won't even get your through KotS).
I'm a fan of 4E (though not a fanboy because I play a lot of other games), but I'm mystified by the weird way they're trying to package the game in a way that it's virtually useless to the target audience they're going for. If you go through all the "this will be AWESOME" posts about the new red box, virtually all of them are coming from people who already own and play the game. That's amazing that they've hit a nerve with those players but I don't see how this is going to bring any new players, especially kids, into the hobby.
Leveling up in 4e takes aroun 10 encounters. Therefore, this boxset is good for about 20 encounters worth of gameplayReplyDelete
The box covers level 1-2 that's 10 encounters
I don't play 4e, so forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but if it's 10 encounters per level, you'd have 10 encounters to get from level 1 to level 2, then 10 encounters at level 2 before you'd be ready to level up again. That would be 20 encounters. It's not like you'd level up your character to 2 and then not ever try out his new abilities or anything.
Several comments here seem to be made under the impression that once you hit level 2, you have to stop playing. Some of them even imply that there's no more reason to play the game ever again. I just don't understand this thinking. If there's content and guidance in there for a new DM to create their own adventures, you can play forever. Sure, your character will never level up again, but that's not the only reason to play.
Furthermore, it specifically says there are rules for character generation, so if your character hits the level plateau and you get tired of playing him/her, you could always make a new character and play someone else. If your dwarf fighter's fun factor is exhausted, make an elf wizard or something. It's fun for new players to try out a variety of classes, and that way they'll see how different types play.
I started with the big black box (well, technically Heroquest was my gateway game), and we never played one character long enough to level even once. We would always just make new characters each time. Granted, the rate of advancement per encounter is much more rapid now, but by design encounters also now take much longer.
I do think it's a little disappointing that they couldn't squeeze at least one more level per class in there, but I just don't think it's as crippling as people seem to believe. 4 races x 4 classes x 2 levels x 10 combats per level = 320 encounters before you've played everything available in the box. This still ignores the fact that you can always just keep playing or even play it over again.
Our experience was that it took 7 4-5 hour sessions of 4e for a couple of PCs (in a group of 6) to make level 3, levelling at 4th and 7th, but I think we were slower than average due to running converted Vault of Larin Karr, a sandbox mini-campaign. One factor that slowed advancement was the meagre XP fo higher level foes.ReplyDelete
With non-stop action you can level up in 2 sessions in 4e.
I'm in the "Will Buy if 1-5, will not if 1-2" camp.
Wonder if anyone will even care if the box cover wasn't following Mentzer's at all.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousFebruary 7, 2010 at 8:49 AM
but if it's 10 encounters per level, you'd have 10 encounters to get from level 1 to level 2, then 10 encounters at level 2 before you'd be ready to level up again. That would be 20 encounters. It's not like you'd level up your character to 2 and then not ever try out his new abilities or anything.ReplyDelete
You are of course, right not sure what I was thinking, or not thinking as the case may be.
That's funny. I always associated red box with the Moldvay edition. That was the first D&D boxed set I got. Then when Elmore and Mentzner re-did D&D that's when I got Expert, Companion, Master, and the much-maligned Immortals set.ReplyDelete
"How many beginners are going to say "you know, these rules will have us advancing too fast so I'll just disregard them and hand out fewer XP."? None."ReplyDelete
I just love it when intellectuals post their opinions up as fact. Lets deal with the facts here... you do not know all of the people that will play this game, how many of them will turn out to be beginners and how creative they will be to emphatically say 'none' will ever expand the game their own. To summarise: you have no idea what you are talking about!
To take on the point itself, the rate of advancement will of course be noticeable because anyone can see how quickly one number moves towards another one, just because there may be beginners involved it's wrong to assume they are blind and / or stupid. You were a beginner yourself once. Oh hang on... ;-)
In short, beware of anything said by one who makes statements of facts about unknowable quantities.
Well, the main audience will be 10 year old kids who are hooked with XBox and WoW. Or is it for old grognards who feel nostalgic over the box cover?ReplyDelete
A point that noone's mentioned is that with a subscription to D&D Insider you can pretty much play forever. The character builder goes up to 30, includes every skill, feat, power and piece of magic from every book or magazin WOTC publish. The Encounter builder has every monster and trap, ditto.ReplyDelete
So a 1-2 level starter pack, followed by (as a plausible minimum) a single months subscription to DDI would give you the whole of 4e, if you are interested.
And if not, then no problem!
D&D and Advanced D&D were very separate products. I recall an article in one of the early 80's Dragon Magazine answering a question from a reader about that very point.ReplyDelete
BECM was its own game, and so was Advanced D&D. I much preferred BECM, as the stat tables were uniform and streamlined, and Advanced (to me) was a big mess. We even imported Classes over from Advanced to Basic, even stuff out of the Unearthed Arcana.
I just thought the boxed sets had more flavor. Certainly more flavor than 3E or 4E do now.


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"Supplier" means HTC Fastenings LTD (Trading as Herts Tool Company) of Lyon Way, Hatfield Road, St. Albans AL4 0LR and will include its employees, servants, agents and/or duly authorised representatives;
"Services" means the services and/or work (if any) to be performed by the Supplier for the Customer in conjunction with the hire or sale of Goods including any delivery and/or collection service in respect of the Goods.
- Goods are hired or sold subject to them being available for hire or sale to the Customer at the time required by the Customer. The Supplier will not be liable for any loss suffered by the Customer as a result of the Goods being unavailable for hire or sale where the Goods are unavailable due to circumstances beyond the Supplier's control.
- Where hire of the Hire Goods is to a Customer who is an individual, unincorporated entity or a two (2) or three (3) partner business, and the hire would be covered by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, the duration of the Hire Period shall not exceed 3 months, after which time the Contract shall be deemed to have automatically terminated. Accordingly the hire of any Hire Goods is not covered by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. In such circumstances, the Customer shall return the Hire Goods to the Supplier on the final day of the 3 month Hire Period. If the Customer fails to do this then it shall be liable for any financial loss which this causes the Supplier.
- Nothing in this Contract shall exclude or limit any statutory rights of the Customer which may not be excluded or limited due to the Customer acting as a Consumer. Where the Customer is acting as a Consumer any provision which is marked with an asterisk (*) may, subject to determination by the Courts or any applicable legislation, have no force or effect and if any provision is under the applicable law of the Contract unenforceable in whole or in part or shall have no force or effect the Contract shall be deemed not to include such provisions but this shall not effect the enforceability of the remainder of the Contract. For further information about your statutory rights contact your local authority Trading Standards Department or Citizens Advice Bureau or if based in the Republic of Ireland your local office of the Director of Consumer Affairs or Citizens Information Centre.
- Where the Customer deals as a Consumer, the Supplier is under a legal duty to supply Goods, Digital Content and Services that are in conformity with the contract between the parties. In such circumstances, the Customer has legal rights in relation to Goods and Digital Content that are, for example, faulty or not as described and in relation to Services that are, for example, not carried out with reasonable skill and care, or if the materials used to carry out the Services are faulty or not as described.
- Advice about Customers' legal rights where they deal as a Consumer is available from their local Citizens' Advice Bureau or Trading Standards office. Nothing in these conditions will affect these legal rights.
- The amount of any Deposit, Rental, monies for Sale Goods and/or charges for any Services shall be as quoted to the Customer or otherwise as shown in the Supplier's current price list from time to time. Where a Deposit is required for the Hire Goods it must be paid in advance of the Customer hiring the Hire Goods. The Supplier may also require an initial payment on account of the Rental in advance of the Customer hiring the Hire Goods.
- The Customer shall pay the Deposit, Rental, charges for any Services, monies for any Sale Goods and/or any other sums payable under the Contract to the Supplier at the time and in the manner agreed. The Supplier's prices are, unless otherwise stated, exclusive of any applicable VAT for which the Customer shall additionally be liable.
- Payment by the Customer on time under the Contract is an essential condition of the Contract. Payment shall not be deemed to be made until the Supplier has received either cash or cleared funds in respect of the full amount outstanding.
- *If the Customer fails to make any payment in full on the due date the Supplier may charge the Customer interest (both before and after judgment/decree) on the amount unpaid at the rate implied by law under the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998 (where applicable) or at the rate of 4% above the base rate from time to time of the Supplier's bank whichever is higher.
- *The Customer shall pay all sums due to the Supplier under this Contract without any set-off, deduction, counterclaim and/or any other withholding of monies.
- The Supplier may set a reasonable credit limit for the Customer. The Supplier reserves the right to terminate or suspend the Contract for hire of the Hire Goods and/or the provision of Services if allowing it to continue would result in the Customer exceeding its credit limit or the credit limit is already exceeded.
- The Supplier reserves the right to store the Customer's credit card details on its password protected customer account system and further reserves the right to use such details against future Rentals made by the Customer.
- Risk in the Goods will pass immediately to the Customer when they leave the physical possession or control of the Supplier.
- Risk in the Hire Goods will not pass back to the Supplier from the Customer until the Hire Goods are back in the physical possession of the Supplier. This shall apply even if the Supplier has agreed to cease charging the Rental.
- Ownership of the Hire Goods remains at all times with the Supplier. The Customer has no right, title or interest in the Hire Goods except that they are hired to the Customer. Ownership of any Sale Goods remains with the Supplier until all monies payable to the Supplier by the Customer for the Sale Goods have been paid in full.
- Until ownership in the Sale Goods passes to the Customer, the Customer shall:-
- hold the Sale Goods on a fiduciary basis as the Supplier's bailee;
- maintain the Sale Goods in satisfactory condition; and
- keep the Sale Goods insured against all risks for their full price from the time they leave the physical possession or control of the Supplier.
- The Customer must not deal with the ownership or any interest in the Hire Goods. This includes but is not limited to selling, assigning, mortgaging, pledging, charging, securing, hiring, withholding, exerting any right to withhold, disposing of and/or lending. However the Customer may re-hire the Hire Goods to a third party with the prior written consent of the Supplier.
- The Supplier may provide reasonably priced insurance in respect of the Hire Goods at an additional cost to the Rental. Alternatively the Supplier may require the Customer to insure the Hire Goods for such reasonable risks as the Supplier may specify and any proceeds of any such insurance shall be paid to the Supplier on demand. The Customer must not compromise any claim in respect of the Hire Goods and/or any associated insurance without the Supplier's written consent.
- It is the responsibility of the Customer to collect the Goods from the Supplier, and, in the case of Hire Goods, return them to the Supplier at the end of the Hire Period. If the Supplier agrees to deliver Goods to and/or collect the Hire Goods from the Customer it will do so at its standard delivery cost and such delivery and/or collection will form part of the Services.
- If the Supplier agrees to collect the Hire Goods from the Customer at the end of the Hire Period the Customer must give the Supplier reasonable notice which shall include at least three (3) working days' notice from the end of the Hire Period. The Customer shall remain responsible and liable for any loss, damage or theft to the Hire Goods until the Hire Goods are collected by the Supplier unless the Supplier fails to collect the Hire Goods within 5 working days of the Customer notifying the Supplier that the Hire Goods are ready for collection whereupon the Supplier shall be liable for any loss, damage or theft thereafter.
- Where the Supplier provides Services the persons performing the Services are servants of the Customer and once the Customer instructs such person they are under the direction and control of the Customer. The Customer shall be solely responsible for any instruction, guidance and/or advice given by the Customer to any such person and for any damage which occurs as a result of such persons following the Customer's instructions, guidance and/or advice except to the extent that the persons performing the Services are found to be negligent by a court with jurisdiction to make such finding pursuant to clause 14.8.
- The Customer will allow and/or procure sufficient access to and from the relevant site and procure sufficient unloading space, facilities, equipment and access to utilities for the Supplier's employees, sub- contractors and/or agents to allow them to carry out the Services. The Customer will ensure that the site where the Services are to be performed is, where necessary, cleared and prepared before the Services are due to commence.
- If any Services are delayed, postponed and/or are cancelled due to the Customer failing to comply with its obligations the Customer will be liable to pay the Supplier's additional standard charges from time to time for such delay, postponement and/or cancellation except where the Customer is acting as a Consumer and the delay is due to a Force Majeure event.
- The Customer shall:
- not remove any labels from and/or interfere with the Hire Goods, their working mechanisms or any other parts of them and shall take reasonable care of the Hire Goods and only use them for their proper purpose in a safe and correct manner in accordance with any operating and/or safety instructions provided or supplied to the Customer;
- notify the Supplier immediately after any breakdown, loss and/or damage to the Hire Goods;
- take adequate and proper measures to protect the Hire Goods from theft, damage and/or other risks;
- notify the Supplier of any change of its address and upon the Supplier's request provide details of the location of the Hire Goods;
- permit the Supplier at all reasonable times and upon reasonable notice to inspect the Hire Goods including procuring access to any property where the Hire Goods are situated;
- keep the Hire Goods at all times in its possession and control and not to remove the Hire Goods from the country where the Customer is located and/or the country where the Supplier is located without the prior written consent of the Supplier;
- be responsible for the conduct and cost of any testing, examinations and/or checks in relation to the Hire Goods required by any legislation, best practice and/or operating instructions except to the extent that the Supplier has agreed to provide them as part of any Services;
- not do or omit to do anything which the Customer has been notified will or may be deemed to invalidate any policy of insurance related to the Hire Goods;
- not continue to use Hire Goods where they have been damaged and will notify the Supplier immediately if the Hire Goods are involved in an accident resulting in damage to the Hire Goods, other property and/or injury to any person; and
- where the Hire Goods require fuel, oil and/or electricity ensure that the proper type and/or voltage is used and that, where appropriate, the Hire Goods are properly installed by a qualified and competent person.
- ensure that any employees, agents or contractors that operate the Hire Goods are, if applicable, adequately and sufficiently qualified and trained to operate the Hire Goods in accordance with all current and applicable legislation.
- The Hire Goods must be returned by the Customer in good working order and condition (fair wear and tear excepted) and in a clean condition together with all insurance policies, licences, registration and other documents relating to the Hire Goods.
- The Customer shall:
- Allowance may be made in relation to the Rental to the Customer for any non-use of the Hire Goods due to breakdown caused by the development of an inherent fault and/or fair wear and tear on condition that the Customer informs the Supplier as soon as practicable of the breakdown and the Supplier is unable to repair or replace the Hire Goods within a reasonable time.
- The Customer shall be responsible for all expenses, loss (including loss of Rental) and/or damage suffered by the Supplier arising from any breakdown of the Hire Goods due to the Customer's negligence, misdirection and/or misuse of the Hire Goods.
- The Supplier will at its own cost carry out all routine maintenance and repairs to the Hire Goods during the Hire Period and all repairs which are required due to fair wear and tear and/or an inherent fault in the Hire Goods. The Customer will be responsible for the cost of all repairs necessary to Hire Goods during the Hire Period which arise otherwise than as a result of fair wear and tear, an inherent fault and/or the negligence of the Supplier while carrying out routine maintenance and/or repairs.
- The Customer must not repair or attempt to repair the Hire Goods unless authorised to do so in writing by the Supplier.
- If the Hire Goods are returned in damaged, unclean and/or defective state except where due to fair wear and tear and/or an inherent fault in the Hire Goods, the Customer shall be liable to pay the Supplier for the cost of any repair and/or cleaning required to return the Hire Goods to a condition fit for re-hire and to pay the Rental, in accordance with the provisions of clause 8.3, until such repairs and/or cleaning have been completed.
- In respect of any Hire Goods which are lost, stolen or damaged beyond economic repair during the Hire Period the Customer will:-
- pay to the Supplier the new replacement cost for any Hire Goods less than twelve (12) months old from first registration; and/or
- reimburse the Supplier for any loss or costs suffered or incurred by the Supplier for any Hire Goods more than twelve (12) months old from first registration, less the amount paid to the Supplier under any policy of insurance and/or Deposit in respect of the Hire Goods.
- The Customer shall remain liable to pay the Rental for the Hire Goods up to and including the date it notifies the Supplier that the Hire Goods have been lost, stolen and/or damaged beyond economic repair.
- In addition to the obligation in clause 9.3 to pay the Rental, from the date the Customer notifies the Supplier that the Hire Goods have been lost, stolen and/or damaged beyond economic repair until the date the Customer makes a payment to the Supplier for the replacement of the Hire Goods in accordance with clause 9.2 ("Lost Rental Period"), the Customer shall pay, as a genuine pre-estimate of lost rental profit, a sum as liquidated damages being equal to two thirds of the Rental that would have applied for such Hire Goods during the Lost Rental Period. The Supplier shall use its reasonable commercial endeavours to purchase replacements for such Hire Goods as quickly as possible once it has received payment from the Customer under clause 9.2 above.
- The provisions of this clause 10 only apply to Customers who are a Consumer for the purpose of any hire or purchase from the Supplier.
- Subject to clauses 10.4 and 10.5, in the case of all Contracts for Sale Goods and those Contracts for Hire Goods where the Hire Period does not have a fixed duration, the Customer shall, in accordance with its rights under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, have the right to cancel the Contract by writing to the Supplier at the address stated at the end of these terms, without incurring any charge or Liability within 14 days of the day following the date on which the Goods come into the physical possession of the Customer.
- Where a Customer exercises its right to cancel under clause 10.1 and has made payments in advance for Goods and/or Services that have not been provided to it, then the Supplier will refund these amounts to the Customer:
- within 14 days of receipt of the Goods which have been returned by the Customer; or
- (if earlier) within 14 days after the day the Customer provides evidence that they have returned the Goods; or
- if no Goods have been provided by the Supplier, 14 days after the day on which the Supplier is informed of the Customer's decision to cancel the Contract.
- Where the Customer deals as a Consumer and requests in writing that the Supplier begins provision of the Services within the cancellation period set out in clause 10.1, then the Customer's right to cancel the Contract without incurring any charge or Liability will expire once the Supplier has completed the provision of the Services. If the Customer cancels the Contract once the Supplier has begun to provide the Services it shall be liable for all costs reasonably incurred by the Supplier in providing the Services up to the point the Supplier is informed of the Customer's decision to cancel the Contract.
- Where the Contract is with a Consumer and:
- is for the supply of accommodation, transport of goods, vehicle rental services, catering or services related to leisure activities; and
- provides for a specific date or period of performance,
the Consumer will not have a right to cancel the Contract without incurring any charge or Liability to the Supplier.
- Where a Customer cancels the Contract under this clause 10, it shall return any Goods which the Supplier has provided to it at its own cost, unless otherwise expressly agreed in writing.
- If the Hire Period has a fixed duration, then subject to the provisions of clause 12 neither the Customer nor the Supplier shall be entitled to terminate the Contract before the expiry of that fixed period unless agreed with the other party.
- If the Hire Period does not have a fixed duration either of the Customer or the Supplier is entitled to terminate the Contract upon giving to the other party any agreed period of notice.
- If no period of notice has been agreed or specified the Customer may terminate the Hire Period by the physical return of the Hire Goods to the Supplier.
- If no period of notice has been agreed or specified either party shall be entitled to terminate the hire of the Hire Goods by giving not less than 14 days' notice to the other.
- The rights set out in this clause 11 are in addition to any rights the Customer may have under clause 10 (and any other legal rights).
- If the Customer:-
- fails to make any payment to the Supplier when due without just cause;
- breaches the terms of the Contract and, where the breach is capable of remedy, has not remedied the breach within 14 days of receiving notice requiring the breach to be remedied;
- persistently breaches the terms of the Contract;
- provides incomplete, materially inaccurate or misleading facts and/or information in connection with the Contract;
- pledges, charges or creates any form of security over any Hire Goods or proposes to compound with its creditors, creates a trust deed for its creditors, applies for an interim moratorium in respect of claims and/or proceedings, any distress/diligence, execution or other legal process is levied on any property of the Customer, has a bankruptcy petition/petition for sequestration presented against it or the Customer takes or suffers any similar action in any jurisdiction;
- being a company, ceases or threatens to cease to carry on business, enters into voluntary or compulsory liquidation, has a receiver, administrator or administrative receiver or in the Republic of Ireland an examiner appointed over all or any of its assets, any attachment order/arrestment is made against the Customer, any distress/diligence, execution or other legal process is levied on any property of the Customer or the Customer takes or suffers any similar action in any jurisdiction;
- appears to the Supplier (acting reasonably) due to the Customer's credit rating to be financially incapable of meeting its obligations under the Contract; and/or
- appears to the Supplier (acting reasonably) to be about to suffer any of the above events; then the Supplier shall have the right, without prejudice to any other remedies, to exercise any or all of the rights set out in clause 12.2below.
- If the Customer:-
- If any of the events set out in clause 12.1 above occurs in relation to the Customer then:-
- except where the Customer is acting as a Consumer the Supplier may enter, without prior notice, any premises of the Customer (or premises of third parties with their consent) where Goods owned by the Supplier may be and repossess any Goods;
- the Supplier may withhold the performance of any Services and cease any Services in progress under this and/or any other Contract with the Customer;
- the Supplier may immediately cancel, terminate and/or suspend without Liability to the Customer the Contract and/or any other contract with the Customer; and/or
- *all monies owed by the Customer to the Supplier shall immediately become due and payable.
- Any repossession of the Goods shall not affect the Supplier's right to recover from the Customer any monies due under the Contract and/or any damages in respect of any breach which occurred prior to repossession of the Goods.
- Upon termination of the Contract the Customer shall immediately:-
- return the Goods to the Supplier or, as requested by the Supplier, make the Goods available for collection by the Supplier or its authorised representatives (the Customer granting or procuring for the Supplier or its authorised representative the right to enter the site without trespass) ; and
- pay to the Supplier all arrears for Rentals, Charges for any Services, monies for any Sale Goods and/or any other sums payable under the Contract including, but not limited to, the cost of returning the Goods.
- If any of the events set out in clause 12.1 above occurs in relation to the Customer then:-
- *All warranties, representations, terms, conditions and duties implied by law relating to fitness, quality and/or adequacy are excluded to the fullest extent permitted by law.
- *If the Supplier is found to be liable in respect of any loss or damage to the Customer's property the extent of the Supplier's Liability will be limited to the retail cost of replacement of the damaged property.
- Any defective Goods must be returned to the Supplier for inspection if requested by the Supplier before the Supplier will have any Liability for defective Goods.
- *The Supplier shall have no Liability to the Customer if, without just cause, any monies due in respect of the Goods and/or the Services have not been paid in full by the due date for payment.
- The Supplier shall have no Liability for additional damage, loss, liability, claims, costs or expenses caused or contributed to by the Customer's continued use of defective Goods and/or Services after a defect has become apparent or suspected or should reasonably have become apparent to the Customer.
- The Customer shall give the Supplier a reasonable opportunity to remedy any matter for which the Supplier is liable before the Customer incurs any costs and/or expenses in remedying the matter itself. If the Customer does not do so the Supplier shall have no Liability to the Customer.
- *The Supplier shall have no Liability to the Customer to the extent that the Customer is covered by any policy of insurance arranged as a result of the Contract and the Customer shall ensure that the Customer's insurers waive any and all rights of subrogation they may have against the Supplier.
- The Supplier shall have no Liability to the Customer for any of the following losses (whether direct or indirect):-
- *consequential losses;
- economic and/or other similar losses;
- business interruption, loss of business, contracts and/or opportunity including loss of profits and/or damage to goodwill; and/or
- special damages and indirect losses however so arising.
- *The Supplier's total Liability to the Customer under and/or arising in relation to any Contract shall not exceed 5 times the amount of the Rental or monies payable for Sale Goods, in addition to charges for Services (if any) under that Contract or the sum of £1,000 (or Euro equivalent) whichever is the higher. To the extent that any Liability of the Supplier to the Customer would be met by any insurance of the Supplier then the Liability of the Supplier shall be extended to the extent that such Liability is met by such insurance.
- Each of the limitations and/or exclusions in this Contract shall be deemed to be repeated and apply as a separate provision for each of:-
- Liability for breach of contract;
- *Liability in tort/delict (including negligence); and
- *Liability for breach of statutory and/or common law duty;
except clause 13.9 above which shall apply once only in respect of all the said types of Liability.
- Nothing in this Contract shall exclude or limit the Liability of the Supplier for fraud, death or personal injury due to the Supplier's negligence, nor exclude or limit any other type of Liability which it is not permitted to exclude or limit as a matter of law.
- Upon termination of the Contract the provisions of clauses 4.2, 4.4, 4.5, 7, 8, 9.1, 9.3 and shall continue in full force and effect.
- Each hire of an item of Hire Goods shall form a distinct Contract which shall be separate to any other Contract relating to other Hire Goods.
- The Customer shall be liable for the acts and/or omissions of its employees, agents, servants and/or subcontractors as though they were its own acts and/or omissions under this Contract.
- When dealing as a Consumer, if the Customer has any questions or complaints it may contact the Supplier by telephoning its customer service team on 01727 832131 or by e-mail it at firstname.lastname@example.com.
- *The Customer agrees to indemnify and keep indemnified the Supplier against any and all losses, lost profits, damages, claims, costs (including legal costs on a full indemnity basis), actions and any other losses and/or liabilities suffered by the Supplier and arising from or due to any breach of contract, any tortious/delictual act and/or omission and/or any breach of statutory duty by the Customer.
- *No waiver by the Supplier of any breach of this Contract shall be considered as a waiver of any subsequent breach of the same provision or any other provision. If any provision is held by any competent authority to be unenforceable in whole or in part the validity of the other provisions of this Contract and the remainder of the affected provision shall be unaffected and shall remain in full force and effect.
- The Supplier shall have no Liability to the Customer for any delay and/or non-performance of a Contract to the extent that such delay is due to any Force Majeure events. If the Supplier is affected by any such event then time for performance shall be extended for a period equal to the period that such event or events delayed such performance.
- All third party rights are excluded and no third parties shall have any rights to enforce the Contract by virtue of the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999. This shall not apply to any finance company with whom the Supplier has an outstanding finance agreement relating to the Hire Goods. Such finance company shall, subject to the Supplier's consent, have the right to enforce this Contract as if they were the Supplier.
- This Contract is governed by and interpreted in accordance with the law of the country where the Supplier is located and that country will have exclusive jurisdiction in relation to this Contract.


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