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I really don't want this to be about Jim Rice or the Hall of Fame, but you may not believe me if you keep reading. What I really want to do here is make a point, and Rice just happens to serve as the example. However, the Hall of Fame debates are near the forefront of the baseball scene right now, and one writer's argument about Rice has inspired me to write this piece.
Another disclaimer: this is not a good post. It just isn't. Don't say you weren't warned.
I also don't want to make this about the writer in question, Peter Abraham. I cannot claim to be familiar with his work, but my first impression is that he seems to be reasonably thoughtful and intelligent. However, he happened to raise a particular point, which I have seen broached elsewhere in different forms, explicitly and openly, and thus it is easy to respond to. It is a lot more difficult to respond to "Some people say…" as it seems as if you are setting up a strawman piñata to bash with a Louisville Slugger.
This is what Mr. Abraham wrote in his blog at LoHud.com:
But here's the problem, the Hall of full of players who were elected based on those standards. So should Jim Rice suffer or Bert Blyleven be elevated because smart people came up with better, more revealing statistics?
Nobody cared about on-base percentage in the 70s and 80s. Rice's job was to swing for the fences. But now we know OBP matters. But Jim Rice can't get in the DeLorean and take more pitches because it would make the Baseball Prospectus guys respect him more.
I have four points I would like to make in response, and I will take the lazy route and make a list:
1. Jim Rice had a low walk rate for a big slugger, even for a benighted era. I looked at the relative walk rates (W/(AB + W) relative to the league average of the same) for all of the 350 HR men in MLB history who started their careers in 1974 or earlier; Rice started his career in 1974, so these are all players who presumably would not have been affected by external pressure to take more pitches:
As you can see, most of these hitters drew a lot of walks relative to their peers, regardless of whether it was "their job" or not. Rice, walking at just 79% of the league average, is 38th of 41 on this list.
I could see this argument if Rice was not unique, and all of the big sluggers of the benighted era were not drawing walks. That's just not the case.
In fairness, you can pick apart this list in a couple of ways. For one, the 350 homer minimum puts Rice, with 382, near the bottom. He's being compared to a bunch of players who are better than him. A true group of his comparables would set the line lower, so that Rice was near the middle of the group. On the other hand, since the Hall of Fame is the overarching subject of this whole discussion, these are the guys he should be compared to. Also, eyeballing similarity, I would say the most similar players (in terms of career length, era, and production) on this list would be Dwight Evans, Dick Allen, Norm Cash, Rocky Colavito, Frank Howard, Graig Nettles, Billy Williams, Tony Perez, Dave Kingman, Orlando Cepada, and Lee May--all of whom walked more than he did except the last two. You don't need to compare him to Ruth, Foxx, and Mantle to see that he didn't draw a lot of walks for a slugger.
Another complaint is that by requiring the players to have embarked on their careers in 1974 and earlier, I am cutting out players who are essentially contemporaries of Rice while including many others who are clearly not his contemporaries (Ruth, Gehrig, Ott, etc.) Rice belongs in a group with Andre Dawson, who's excluded here, much more than he does with them.
Caveats aside, I think the claim that sluggers of Rice's era didn't walk (or weren't expected to walk) and thus it doesn't matter should have to establish that contention. It flies against common sense and it flies against a cursory look at the evidence, and I am trying to be generous.
2. I let it go in my first point, but I don't believe there was a benighted era (Abraham does not explicitly state that there was, but it is hinted at). Sure, baseball people (and writers, and fans, etc.) generally have a better or more complete understanding of the value of OBA and walks now than they did in 1980 or 1920. But I think it's just a little bit condescending to pretend as if it was a revelation to them. Perhaps to some; but there have always been Earl Weavers and Branch Rickeys out there who understand the importance of getting on base/avoiding outs as well as anybody in any time.
There are certainly people throughout baseball, past and present, who didn't properly appreciate the value of getting on base. And there are many more that, while recognizing the theoretical value of getting on base, have ignored or undervalued it when using statistics to judge a player. That's a far cry from believing that this belief was so overwhelming that it prevented Rice from displaying patience, and the walk rates of other big home run hitters doesn't support such a position.
3. Even if someone threatened to fine Rice for every pitch he took, I don't care. In the end, I am only interested in assessing value. If Rice's lack of selectivity was caused by the conditions of his time, and made him a less valuable player in his own time and place than he might have been had he played in 2005, I don't care.
Generally speaking, the same things that won baseball games in 2005 won baseball games in 1975. Evolving metrics just allow us to better quantify reality--they don't change it.
This is where the discussion crosses into opinion territory of course--"value rules all" does not have to be the underlying philosophy that you use when evaluating players. I happen to believe that the only truly fair way to evaluate a player is to estimate how many wins he contributed to his team in the unique context in which he actually performed. Anything else is judging him on what he might have been or could have been and ultimately, what the individual thinks he could have been, rather than what he was. From reading the arguments of other writers over the years, it is my observation that straying too far off the value reservation often results in a mess of countering what-ifs and contradictions. It is much easier to just judge the player's achievements as they relate to winning baseball games in the environment in which he actually performed.
Perhaps Rice would have taken more pitches if he had played today…but perhaps his aggressiveness enabled him to hit some of his home runs. Perhaps he would have gotten frustrated as a rookie when his hitting coach tried to impose this upon him, pressed, and gotten labeled as a AAAA player. Perhaps he would have been Manny Ramirez instead. The point is, you cannot possibly know what would have happened with any degree of certainty. Sabermetric estimates of Rice's value in his own time and place are certainly not without flaw, weakness, and oversight, but they also are grounded in the principle of assessing what Rice actually did, and estimating its value.
I would even go so far as to say that Abraham's argument, taken to its extreme, glorifies statistics above winning. One of the common complaints about sabermetricians is that all we care about is the numbers. Of course, the reason we look at certain statistics and interpret them as we do is because they correlate with wins. If you throw up your hands and say "In Rice's time, people valued BA, HR, and RBI" and look at these despite agreeing that they are less telling than other metrics, aren't you in fact saying that putting up statistics (specifically, statistics that are in vogue in a given time and place) is what matters?
4. Even if one accepts Abraham's premise, I can't imagine using it as an argument against a player. He cites Rice and Blyleven as two sides of the coin; one whose standing has been hurt by the proliferation of sabermetric ideas and one who has benefited from it.
Abraham suggests that perhaps Rice would have played the game differently if he played today. As I have spent the rest of this post explaining, I don't buy it and even if I did, it wouldn't change my mind on my opinion of him. But if you do, you may accept Abraham's argument and view Rice's relatively low OBAs (for a Hall of Fame corner outfielder) as a product of environment.
I have to ask, though, how would Blyleven's performance be affected? Blyleven looks better when you evaluate him by runs allowed instead of by win-loss record. Had the observers of the time thought more about his ERA instead of his W%, he would have been better regarded in his own time. But how would it have affected what he did on the field? Blyleven was trying to prevent runs and win games. Are we to believe that he would have been able to allow less runs (or that he would have allowed more) had his contemporaries not paid attention to the "W" and "L" columns? Since I have to assume that just about everyone would answer "no", then what good does it do to evaluate Blyleven in an outdated light? At least in the case of Rice, Abraham has offered a possible cause and effect relationship between contemporary views of statistics and performance. I don't see any offered for the case of ERA v. W-L.
I have tried to avoid mentioning the Hall of Fame, because I don't want to get into that debate ("that debate" being the one about which specific players should be in/out, not the election process itself or how a theoretical Hall might look). The same issues that come up in relation to the Hall are relevant for the general discussion of player value down through the years. My opinion of the Hall will be the same after Rice's induction as it was before Rice's induction, and while you can probably tell what I think of Jim Rice as a player, my intent really was just to use him as a vehicle to touch on the larger issues.
Tuesday, December 16, 2008
A Jim Rice Post (sorry)
I really don't want this to be about Jim Rice or the Hall of Fame, but you may not believe me if you keep reading. What I really want to do here is make a point, and Rice just happens to serve as the example. However, the Hall of Fame debates are near the forefront of the baseball scene right now, and one writer's argument about Rice has inspired me to write this piece.
52 comments:
- AnonymousDecember 16, 2008 at 3:14 PM
Rice finished in the top 5 in mvp voting 6 times the other 9 players that have done that are in the hof .RICE Should be in as well. Or arre you saying that the voters at that time were wrong also and Rice value was overblown. I will go with the voters of the time not one looking back 30 years later.ReplyDelete
Swing and a miss.ReplyDelete
Regarding Anonymous's comment about the voters "of that time" vs. "looking back 30 years later" ... What about the Hall of Fame voters 14 years ago? Where do they fit in your equation? Because 14 years ago the Hall of Fame voters soundly rejected Jim Rice as a Hall of Fame candidate.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousDecember 16, 2008 at 10:16 PM
Rice was a borderline case and has aways been one.(yes I think there is room for borerline cases) You know that it takes a borderline player time to build up his vote totals. (Not to mention that many of the voters were sticking it to him for being a jerk to them). Take a look at goose sutter carter for some recent examples. Rice had more votes than all of them if I recall more than gossage for 8 years and more than sutter for 7 carter for two or three.Not to mention that it is he luck of the draw for some players depends if the likes of ripken and gwynn are on the ballot. You can get bumped off without even getting 5% to stay on. Almost happened to baines. It did happen to Bobby Grich who deserved more consideration and if I recall d evans as well. IF rickey H would have retired 1 year earlier Rice would have walked in easy this year and blyleven and or Dawson would have also. It is the luck of the draw for the borderline guys.
I know that you dont like Rice. But I think that he belongs.I wont bore you with stats and other reasons this debate has been exhausted many times over. I just dont understand the attack on him through the years. IT is like the guardians of the hall will fight to their last breath to keep the man out. Who is next probably Dawson i guess? The 80's players have been overlooked for too long.I would think that you would be rooting for the man at least for giving you something to write about all these years. Give the man a break.He has been a stand up guy through the process and has actually gained more fame from the process. When is the last time anyone has talked about sandberg carter boggs sutter etc.
I don't think Mr. Neyer or anyone else has really attacked him. You know how it goes...an ad saying my candidate lied is an "attack", and ad saying your candidate lied is a courageous effort to get out the message that the voters are too stupid/ignorant/brainwashed to have grasped. And the same is true for Hall of Fame arguments.ReplyDelete
That being said, though, you make an excellent point when you say:
He has been a stand up guy through the process and has actually gained more fame from the process. When is the last time anyone has talked about sandberg carter boggs sutter etc.
This is the perverse system that the Hall of Fame has set up, where the marginal cases get all of the glory, and the greats are quickly ushered in and forget about. More ink has been spilled about Jim Rice and Phil Rizzuto over the years, with regards to the Hall of Fame, as on Jackie Robinson and Tom Seaver. I think there is something fundamentally flawed about such a system, which is why I believe the Hall should be constructed as a pyramid, with players being inducted, then voted up to the next rung.
Such a system would satisfy advocates of both a large and small Hall, as the small Hall crowd could focus on the higher levels. The large Hall crowd could be happy with getting their guys into the first level. And it would keep names from the distant past in the conversation. Alas, it will never happen.
- AnonymousDecember 17, 2008 at 10:36 AM
P & robReplyDelete
I agree that the system is a mess. However I disagree and do think that Neyer and Keith Law have been attacking rice. using him him oto bang thier drum for years. Even you had to add "im sorry" to the title of your post because you realize that the story has been beat to death. Let it go. Here is an Idea. How about writing a positive article on a player that you think is deserving and make your case. It might pick up momentem through the years and get the player in.
I guess that like negative campainging in an election it is easier.Just becaus it is the "way that it is" does not make it right.
Last year espn.com ran an article ALL through the month of DEC By Rob stating his beliefs that Rice did not belong. Fine his opinion but to have that article on the espn baseball homepage all through the month when voters on the fence are doing their research I believe did or could have caused Rice the vote totals he needed. He missed by a few. The self proclaimed world wide leader in sports I think would be a place some voters would turn to to get their take. What bothered me the most is that at the same time espn.com was writing debate articles on individual players throughout the month. They started with goose highest vote total from previous year not to get in and than skiped over rice for dawson then raines than blyleven then lee smith by the time that the article was written on Rice the deadline for the writers to get the ballotts in had passed. By the way both espn writers in the article believed that Rice should get in. Why would they wait to post their positive rice article untill after the fact. Espically when he was the only player other with goose to have a chance. While at the same time Neyers article was posted for all to see throughout the month?
I know it all sounds pretty grassy nollish but I so think that Rice has become the Sabermetrics target and that they get great satisfaction in trying to keep him out.
- AnonymousDecember 17, 2008 at 10:49 AM
When will people drop the "80s players being overlooked thing." There are lots of prominent 70s/80s players that were Rice's contemporaries that are in the hall/will be in: Boggs, Schmidt, Brett, Winfield, Henderson, Ozzie, Carter, Fisk, Ripken, Gwynn, Murray, Yount, Molitor, Eckersley, Sandberg, Ryan, Goose, Carlton, Neikro, Seaver, Sutton, and Sutter. Almost all of whom were far more deserving than Rice. Do you seriously think that Rice was more feared than Winfield or Schmidt?ReplyDelete
If you want to induct more 80s players how about Tim Raines or Alan Trammell both were among the better players of the 80s and get no love from the writers.
The point of this post was not to be pro- or anti- Rice; it was to discuss the specific argument that Mr. Abraham advanced. I think that argument is invalid, as I explained in the post. You can disagree with that conclusion of course, but please recognize that my only goal here was to respond to that specific argument, not Rice's candidacy in general. It's just that the issues of player valuation are rarely discussed so frankly and openly as during Hall of Fame season (with the exception of MVP season).ReplyDelete
I have no interest in writing positive pieces on HOF candidates because I don't really care who they elect. I think, for example, that Tim Raines was a great player, but I'll think that regardless of whether he's ever in Cooperstown. I'd rather argue about the system itself than the players chosen by the system.
Obviously I don't know about the inner workings at ESPN, but I think it's a little silly to blame Rob for their editorial decisions.
- AnonymousDecember 17, 2008 at 11:40 AM
sorry I did not mean to suggest that Rob was responsible for the placement of the article. I blame espn editor. I believe that it showed a major bias.ReplyDelete
as for your post. I understand your point but when you name a post "A JIM RICE" post you are fanning the negative flame. You are using him like so many others as your vehicle. It has been driven way too long. Choose a different car. IF the sabermetricians had a logo it would be Jim Rice sswinging a bat and probably missing.
Everyone is intitled to their opinion but in the Rice case it has been a witch hunt. I was actually on the fence with rice and the hall for years but the bombardment of negativity has made me start puling for the man. To recieve 72.3% of the vote and not to get in now would be something that he should not have to shoulder.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.ReplyDelete
These discussions are a give and take. Rice has a lot of advocates advancing a lot of different arguments on his behalf. If it wasn't Rice, it would be somebody else. After Rice is taken care of this year (one way or the other), it will be Jack Morris or Lee Smith or, from the sabermetric side (if we're going to characterize it as monolithic), Blyleven or Raines or Trammell.
If Abraham had made this argument about Player X, I would have responded about Player X. I sort of pre-apologized for the fact that Rice was a major topic here becuase I think there's a saturation of Rice articles, pro and con, and I can certainly see why people, whether they advocate for, against, or are netural on Rice, would be suffering from some fatigue. And how's that for a run-on sentence?
- AnonymousDecember 17, 2008 at 1:29 PM
Anonymous said: "I wont bore you with stats and other reasons this debate has been exhausted many times over. I just dont understand the attack on him through the years."ReplyDelete
Um, you're not going to "bore" us with statistics because, other than your heavy reliance on MVP voting, they don't favor Rice, right? They simply prove the argument you can't take, that he belongs in the "Hall of Very Good."
And if by "attack" you mean "defense of the standards the HOF supposedly upholds," then perhaps you should ask yourself why hundreds of writers, with access to MVP voting, statistics, videos, and the 20/20 of hindsight seem to continually disagree with your position...maybe because: you're wrong?
- AnonymousDecember 17, 2008 at 2:30 PM
I think you need to worry about intentional walks. I know they weren't always kept, but at least an estimate.ReplyDelete
It would be nice to have IW data, but I'm not taking them out for Rice and the other players we have the data for, so they are at no record-keeping disadvantage here.ReplyDelete
It would be next to impossible for IW to make Rice's walk rate anything more than below average within this group of players.
i think i am as sick as everyone is about the rice and blyleven debate, but i would just like to add that as a stat inclined yet player neutral fan of the game, i now hate jim rice and hope he never gets in the hall because of fans like anonymous. they ruin every discussion about the hall this time of year. honestly, i grew up in the late 80s and 90s and never gave a darn about rice one way or the other until the last few years, when i have grow to hate rice's guts with a passion.ReplyDelete
p.s. P, great blog, long time first time.
- AnonymousDecember 17, 2008 at 4:36 PM
Greg 3 thingsReplyDelete
Last time I looked 72 % of thoae voters agreed with me
Second.The Rice stats that I speak of have been published over and over and over again and I know that they fall on deaf ears to the sabermatrician so why bother
and finally. who made you a guardian of the hall and the " defense of the standards that the hall supposedly up holds" last time I checked the calls criteria was a 10 year career Rice led in almost every offensive catagory h,hr,rbi,r,slg total bases etc.over a ten year span Dont bother with your stat analysis they have been rehashed over and over.also in the bylaws of the hof I thought character was suppose to matter but yet eck,molitor( 2 illegal drug users at one time) got in and everyone who backs Raines gives him the pass on his coke habit.astually sliding headfirst not to break glass vials of coke in his pocket. I dont see any guardians of the hall trying to uphold the halls criteria there. (i know they reformed and good for them everyone deserves a second chance ) but tell that to the fans and owners that paid or paid to watch those players when they were not living up to their contracts. Eck was so deep in the botle and drug habit that instead of being the ace he should have been became a so so preformer untill tony larussa saved him.Keep I guess you can pick and choose your criteria to protect the hall and ops is more important.
- AnonymousDecember 17, 2008 at 4:40 PM
You are right we will have to agree to disagree and thats ok.At least we wont have to revisit rice in the coming years again. Somehow if he gets in I think still there will be more post attacking his elaction for years to come. Hopefully you will have moved on to another player by then.
- AnonymousDecember 17, 2008 at 5:15 PM
This is a specious argument. Comparing walk rates to different eras is about as unscientific as comparing OPS+ to different eras. Take Rice's 75-86 peak and rank all hitters with 200+ HR by OBP. Rice was 12th out of 32. Winfield's OBP was identical (and he hit in a weak lineup). Jackson was lower. Fisk was lower. Carter was lower. Dawson was lower. The higest OBP was Schmidt at .386. Now do it for 63-74 and you'll notice that the mean OBP of the same group is significantly higher. You can't value out of context and you're ignoring the fact that the Sox didn't run, didn't play small ball and relied heavily on the philosopy of the 3 run HR. Ignore the fact that if you walked Rice with runners on you had to face a very good lineup after him. Tell me why no one criticizes Murray and Stargell for a near identical career out rate as Rice. You can slice and dice this all you want, but the fact remains that for sluggers of his era, Rice was in the top 3rd for OBP while in top 5 for slugging (and 2nd in go ahead RBI's at his peak).ReplyDelete
You seem to be missing the point. I am not arguing that Rice should not be in the Hall of Fame because he had a below-average walk rate. What I am arguing is: any contention that Rice's below-average walk rate was an inevitable result of the environment in which he played is a specious and faulty argument.ReplyDelete
That being said, let's look at your argument: Rice is 12th in OBA among players with 200+ HRs in 1975-86. First of all, it should be noted that this is a very favorable comparison for Rice since it covers just about his entire productive career, whereas for a player like Jackson, it leaves out what one could argue are his second, third, fifth, and sixth most valuable seasons (71, 68, 69, and 73 respectivley).
Brushing that aside, here are the players in your group with lower OBAs than Rice, divided into some relevant categories:
Hall of Famers
Players who might be elected
Players who aren't HoF candidates, at least right now
Parrish (Lance and Larry)
Of the HoFers, Carter and Fisk are both catchers and thus have oodles more defensive value than Rice.
I don't find this a particularly compelling argument; in fact, I think one could very well look at your argument and conclude that it is a mark against Rice rather than the positive you want it to be.
- AnonymousDecember 17, 2008 at 5:33 PM
Mr. Neyer:ReplyDelete
Rice was not soundly rejected in 1995. He came in 8th in his first year right behind Ron Santo a guy you "wholheartedly" endorsed for the Hall of Fame. 4 Hall of Famers finished ahead of him plus Oliva and Garvey and he finished ahead of Bruce Sutter who made it in. Rice finished with 30% on his first ballot higher than B. Williams, Sutter and many others. During the 14 years Rice finished ahead of other players in voting who eventually made it in to the HOF. To say Rice was "soundly rejected" is misleading and intellectually dishonest. Your anti-Rice campaign is full of misleading arguments like this - please stop doing such damage to your journalistic credibility and reputation.
No personal attacks, please.ReplyDelete
This is directed at a comment that I rejected, not any of the ones posted, which are fine.
Obviously I don't speak for Rob, and while perhaps "soundly rejected" is a bit strong, I think the point he is trying to make is that at no point was Rice considered an obvious HoFer by the writers. He has always been a borderline case.ReplyDelete
Now you can argue that's wrong--he should be a no-brainer, he shouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell, whatever you want. But I don't see a lot of wiggle room to argue that the electors have ever viewed him as anything but a borderline candidate.
why would rob neyer have an anti rice bias? a writer who covers the entire league would purposely piss off one of the largest and most rabid fan bases in the entire sport? i think a more logical explanation is rob neyer has objectively looked at the evidence for and against rice and reached a conclusion. a conclusion that is shared by many other sabrely inclined writers who also cover every team and gave no professional or (apparent) personal incentive to include bias into their reasoning. believe me, espn is more than generous in their coverage of the red sox. to not include neyer's opinion of rice in the hall debate web pages would be far more ludicrously biased. just give it a rest already. sheesh.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousDecember 17, 2008 at 6:52 PM
maybe rob just hates rices guts as yur stated you do earler.
The espn point was that it ran the entire month whereas the pro rice article did not appear untill after the vote total was in.
and yes ticking off red sox nation would be a brilliant move by a writer trying to advance his or her career. just look at the reaction you get when you get red sox nation upset. Confilct sells my friend.
hey you know i think youre right. i think rob really does hate rice's guts. that makes total sense. in fact, it fits with rob's whole career, of writing for the last dozen plus years about baseball, always purposely ticking of members of red sox nation to help sell conflict for espn. i think we should all thank red sox nation for helping elevate the discussion of baseball to a higher level and for exposing the truth. well, glad we got that cleared up.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousDecember 17, 2008 at 9:40 PM
I was being sarcastic With the "hate rices guts comment"
But if you dont think articles by neyer and other writers are written to creat conflict and heated debate(and in turn bringing the writer attention) than I think that you are wrong.They are easy articles to write.It is always harder to build something up than tear it down.
My whole point of these post was to say that I believe that the sabs of the world have played the antirice drum too often and too loud. It has become their battle cry. Get off the man and move on.He was one hell of a player who now has become known almost solely as a topic of debate.
I am supposed to believe that Rob Neyer, former assistant to Bill James, author of five (?, I may be selling him short) books, columnist for one of the top sports sites on the web, has to go around ripping on Jim Rice in order to get attention?ReplyDelete
The Rice advocates can't have it both ways. He can't be the #1 returning vote getter on the ballot without drawing a lot of attention, pro and anti.
And don't pretend as if it's just Jim Rice that the Hall of Fame process has turned into a pinata. It's Blyleven, it's Raines, it was Rizzuto and Drysdale in the past. That's the way the system works. You don't have to like it, but don't pretend as if it's confined to Jim Rice and that he is somehow being singled out as no player ever has before or will be again.
- AnonymousDecember 18, 2008 at 8:56 AM
There has hardly anything thats been written about Blyleven he has quietly been gaining steam and he will probably get some attention by themedia next year as for Raines he was not considered a first ballot lock by most so he will have to wait out the process.Have funr with the campainging.ReplyDelete
As for Rice not continuning to be a topic of debate (in or out of the hall) I will believe it when I see it. He is your posterboy.
Darn, you figured us out. The entire existence of sabermetrics is all a big plot against Jim Rice.ReplyDelete
Rice is in the discussion because he is in the news. It's just that simple. You can't have it both ways; you can't try to seek the ultimate baseball honor for your guy and expect the rest of the world to just say "OK, whatever".
As for me, I can assure you that this is the first post I've ever made about Jim Rice (I may have had a sentence in one or two other posts, but certainly nothing like this). And it wasn't even supposed to be about Rice's HoF candidacy, it was supposed to be about Mr. Abraham's specific argument, with Rice serving as the example because that's who Abraham used.
Unfortunately the Rice supporters who have commented here have really not grasped the difference, and thus have changed the topic of the discussion.
- AnonymousDecember 18, 2008 at 9:46 AM
once the sabes idol Bill James stated that Roy White was as good a player as jim rice it has been a heated discussion. numbers can be massaged in different ways to generate any outcome. the rice 75-86 totals leading everything offensively can be misleading(he was not the best offensive player of that era but was in the discussion) and any formula that sabes use ca nalso be misleading (yes including the almighty ops+) bottom line is rice was a much better player that roy white and is a borderline candidate for the hall and if he gets in would not diminish the hall in the least.ReplyDelete
you cant write an article about the subject and expect the discussion to go any other way than it has unless you want to just preach to your believers and have them say good job with the article. and pat you on the back.
you cant write an article about the subject and expect the discussion to go any other way than it has unless you want to just preach to your believers and have them say good job with the article. and pat you on the back.ReplyDelete
I have no problem with critical responses; believe me, if I did, I would be rejecting many of these comments. However, I don't think it's too much to hope that the responses deal with the real point, which I reiterated in the last comment.
One could reject Mr. Abraham's particular argument in favor of Rice while still supporting Rice's candidacy. If someone tried to argue that Tim Raines should be in the HoF because he stole X bases over some period of time, I would consider that a very poor argument, despite the fact that I think Raines was a terrific player.
One of the comments from the Rice supporters, the one about him being 12th in OBA from 75-86, did touch on the main point of my post. And one (which did not specify whether they were pro, anti, or neutral towards Rice) raised the issue of intentional walks, which is certainly related to my post. The rest have been about the general topic of his HoF worthiness.
- AnonymousDecember 18, 2008 at 10:49 AM
i guess that discussing rice is like complaining to your mother in law about her daughter . It wont do any good no matter what you say.ReplyDelete
that goes both ways (pro and anti rice)
every point brought up by either side gets brushed aside for a counter stat. the bombardment has made for an impossiable discussion.
we will have to agree to disagree and it will be interesting to see if the rice discussion does end with his election (on non election).I will be pulling for him on dec 12th he has been at the center of the storm for too long.
- AnonymousDecember 18, 2008 at 1:48 PM
It seems like this is being made waay to complicated. If a pitch is a strike and the player knows its a strike he can hit then thats when a player swings. If its a ball then they do not or should not swing. Its not like balls and strikes are a new rule. Did players from Rice's era decide to swing a bad pitches? I don't think so. They just weren't that good.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousDecember 18, 2008 at 3:05 PM
no the middle approach the middle of the order guys had at that time were to swing the bat. They were the guys paid to deliver the offense. now a days the ss and 2b men are paid to hit and the lineups are more offensive. anyone in the lineup can drive in runs so a 3 or 4 hitter can wait for his pitch if he does not get it who cares the 678 hitters will drive him in. The game is played different today.There are no Mario mendozas mark belangers. if you cant hit there is little room for you.ReplyDelete
That's certainly what you and Mr. Abraham would have us believe, but I'm not buying it (nor do I buy "they just weren't that good", which is silly).ReplyDelete
In 2008, the 3-4-5 hitters in the AL had a walk rate W/(AB+W) of .111; the league average was .096, so they were 15% above it. In 1978, the 3-4-5 hitters in the AL had a walk rate of .104 versus a league average of .095, or 9% better.
So today's heart of the order hitters are walking, relative to the league average, 115/109 ~ 6% more than those of 1978. 6%, and to hear the arguments from the Rice crowd you might think it was 60%.
Jim Rice simply did not a lot of walks relative to his peers, whether you consider his peers to be the whole player population, the heart of the order hitters, or big sluggers throughout history.
- AnonymousDecember 18, 2008 at 4:26 PM
I meant they weren't that good compared to Hall of Famers. The Hall of Fame players from that era were plenty good. I mean the people with bad pitch recognition.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousDecember 18, 2008 at 4:53 PM
there you go with your abbacus again.ReplyDelete
Do you honestly believe that a 6 time top 5 finisher for mvp whould not have been able to walk more ao adjusted to todays game if he wanted to. My god he had seasons with over 670 ab and did not strike out 200 times like todays sluggers do. He would have adjusted. Giambi and his like walk all the time because with todays small ballparks and watered down pitching and small strikezone it is easier to and there is a more of a benefit to than there was in the past. get off the walks. the strike zone was at the letters in his rices day. jim palmer probably never threw a ball below a hitters waist in his career.
To the 4:26 poster: Gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood which group you were referring to.ReplyDelete
To the 4:53 poster:
1) The idea that looking at walks/PA compared to the league average causes you to bust out the old "abacus" line (what, are slide rules chopped liver?) is hilarious.
2) Get off the walks? That's the whole point of the original post, which was not meant to take a stand on Rice's candidacy but instead to respond to Mr. Abraham's argument about walks. If you're not interested in that topic, why did you read this in the first place? There are plenty of other blogs out there where people have explicitly gone after Rice's candidacy as a whole, and if you feel that they are overstating the importance of walks, than that would be a good place to focus your energy.
I don't accept the premise that Rice would have to adjust his plate discipline if he played in 2008. There are still middle of the order hitters with a liberal approach (Carlos Lee, Vlad Guerrero, Jose Guillen to name a few). There is not a monolithic approach to hitting in any era.
For all I know, Rice may have maximized his talent using the approach that he did. The real question is how much value did his actual performance have when he played.
i love it when admitted red sox fanatics accuse someone else of bias. absolutely hysterical. uh, would this conversation be going on if rice played for the texas rangers? the sabes (a new one to me) try to remain calm and use objective analysis while the red sox spazes scream foul and spew wholly subjective nonsense. kind of goes with the whole you-cant-prove-anything-with-numbers-and-to-prove-that-i-will-use-numbers, argument.ReplyDelete
and so another quality discussion about baseball is ruined by jim rice super fans. hence my hatred for jim rice.
- AnonymousDecember 18, 2008 at 7:21 PM
something that you do not take into account is teams approach. some teams want their player to walk others do not. another thing about the strikezone rice murdered the ball that was up at the letters and was usually called a strike if he took it in his day. with the srtike zone being much larger in his day he would swing more often. to say that he lacked pitch recogniton is crazy he was a .298 career hitter. ( dont bother I know ba means nothing too you) some players of his time were actually praised for their swing at all cost approach such as sanguillen and a little before his time clemente. anyone who ever saw Rice play knows he did not hack at anything like Vlad G.ReplyDelete
I dont buy that he would be a hofer only if he walked 25 more times a year
- AnonymousDecember 18, 2008 at 7:31 PM
See the pitch, determine whether strike or ball. Strike in players comfort zone=swing, put ball in play. Ball or pitch player can't handle=don't swing, walk or force pitcher to make perfect pitches.ReplyDelete
FACT: Jim Rice has a lower OPS than Neifi Perez and Tony Womack over the last 10 years.ReplyDelete
(Of course, this has nothing to do with Jim Rice being worse than these guys, just the fact that he hasn't played)
Picking specific years is a problem, no matter how you do it, this is why I hate the "during the 12 years I've selected, Jim Rice was X Y Z" type arguments. He was a tremendous player, but he's borderline. I remember how much of a pleasure it was to watch him hit, but I also remember watching Keith Hernandez hit (I still have his 1988 "Starting Lineup" figure).
It doesn't take anything away from Jim Rice's career...no one can argue that he was a BAD player. However, there simply has to be a line somewhere, and maybe he's destined to be the one of the best guys on the outside.
something that you do not take into account is teams approach. some teams want their player to walk others do not.ReplyDelete
If the Red Sox didn't want players to walk, they did a poor job of passing this on to Dewey, Yaz, and Lynn, all teammates of Rice.
Even if they did, so what? What if a team didn't want it's players to hit for power? Would we just ignore that a player only averaged say, 10 homers a year when evaluating his career?
to say that he lacked pitch recogniton is crazy he was a .298 career hitter.
I never said he lacked "pitch recognition"; I just said he didn't walk a lot, and that's a fact.
I dont buy that he would be a hofer only if he walked 25 more times a year
If he would have traded 25 outs for walks a year, he would have gone from a career line of 298/351/502 to a career line of 311/390/523, which is a big difference.
That's not to say that he COULD have, but in a world where you could waive a magic wand and turn outs into walks, it would be extremely valuable.
- AnonymousDecember 19, 2008 at 3:02 AM
I think you have a troll on your hands with Ananymous. Although his refusal to listen to any of your well-thought out arguments does make for some comical reading.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousDecember 19, 2008 at 10:18 AM
just like with your stats that you throw out there. you seem to be just as one sided with what personal attacks you allow to post.but thats ok it is your post.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousDecember 19, 2008 at 10:27 AM
for the first 7 years(rices prime) of his career rice hit way more hr and extra base hits than yaz dewey and lynn and fisk. he was the sox big bat his job bas to swing the bat.yes lynn was hurt alot but RICE played hurt and was almost always in the lineup. almost no sox had a 100 bb season. I think dewey miight of had ane or two . I dont recall off hand. wone boggs got there things changed of course. but the other sox hardly walked burleson hobson g.scott later hr leader tony armas don baylor. maybe it was as a result of the old school managers the sox had during rices career d. johnson d zimmer ralph houk j mac. joe morgan. But they wanted him to hit.ReplyDelete
Again, even if I grant that it's true (I don't), why should I care? The only goal of the team should be to maximize its wins. If they take some counter-productive approach, I see no reason to make allowances when evaluating the value of their players. And the 100 walk season standard is arbitrary. As the data above shows, Dewey and Yaz had excellent walk rates. Lynn's is not in the class, but it was above average.ReplyDelete
Ultimately, a batter's plate approach is up to him. People whined that Ted Williams took too many pitches, passed the buck too much, etc. Guess what? He ignored it and played the game the way he felt was best.
The underlying assumption of your post seems to be that anybody could walk if they wanted to. I don't accept that as fact. There are differences among players in eyesight, hand/eye coordination, and other factors that affect "plate discipline" just as there are differences in strength and speed. I am not claiming that Rice was a fool or a failure because he didn't draw a lot of walks; but HAD he been able to, he would have been a better player. So would have Mario Mendoza if he could hit.
- AnonymousDecember 20, 2008 at 3:04 PM
How in the hell would you know if a hitters approach is "ultimately up to him". Different teams have different approaches. If you dont know that you have never watched the game.ReplyDelete
Saying that the greatest hitter of all time did it his own way and did not listen to the critics so rice and others should as well is foolish.
I have watched a lot of baseball games, and I have never seen a batting coach, manager, GM, or owner at the plate swinging the bat for a hitter.ReplyDelete
Teams may have different approaches, but you've failed to provide any evidence that the Red Sox forced Jim Rice to swing the bat. And again, his teammates like Yaz, Dewey, and Lynn were certainly not averse to drawing walks.
If the Red Sox had ordered Rice to try to be a slap hitter, would you be here trying to wipe away his resulting lack of home runs as relevant to his value as a player? Ultimately, the results the player produces on the field are what he is judged on. Anything else and you end up twisted around like a pretzel, flailing away. Which is where you are now.
- AnonymousDecember 21, 2008 at 1:39 AM
"And the 100 walk season standard is arbitrary."ReplyDelete
Yep, we can even look a little closer and see this more clearly... Dewey had 3 100+ walk seasons, but had 6 95+ walk seasons. He also led the AL in walks in strike shortened 1981 with 85.
- AnonymousDecember 21, 2008 at 6:39 PM
fact: jm rice was in the top 5 for mvp 6 timesReplyDelete
fact: the other 9 players who have done this and are eligible for the hall are in the hall
soon to be fact : walks or no walks rice will be in the hall. rice basher will have to deal with it and move on to your next player to target.
- AnonymousJanuary 6, 2009 at 3:00 PM
Although I can appreciate the fact that you were responding to another's assertion about walks, you chose to ignore those sluggers who played most of their careers at the same time as Rice - at least 2 of whom are in the HOF. This is an interesting omission. Winfield w'd once every 9 ab and finished with a 353 OBP. Rice walked once every 12 AB and finished with a .352 AB. But yet we want to reward the mighty walk over the hit. This is significant when one considers Rice hit .308 with men on compared to Winfield's .287. This becomes all the more significant b/c what's the relative value of a walk vs. a hit when you are in a lineup with other guys with good OBP's who get on base? Conversely, if you're in a good lineup, then it would seem to make sense that you would be walked less. Murray walked once every 8 AB to Rice's 12.2. But despite this large % difference, Murray only got on base .7% more than Rice. So when OBP's are comparable, explain again how a walk is as good as a hit or better than a hit as OPS+ will state. Sorry, but this all smacks of holding players to post 1993 OBP philosophies (and obviously OBP's have gone up significantly) and smacks of revisionism and historical study absolutely demands that one make allowance for the way players were taught in their time.ReplyDelete
Although I can appreciate the fact that you were responding to another's assertion about walks, you chose to ignore those sluggers who played most of their careers at the same time as Rice - at least 2 of whom are in the HOF.ReplyDelete
True, and acknowledged.
So when OBP's are comparable, explain again how a walk is as good as a hit or better than a hit as OPS+ will state.
OPS+ states no such thing. OBA weights walks and hits equally; SLG ignores walks entirely. Singles are valued more highly, relative to walks, by OPS+ than by more advanced sabermetric measures. I don't like or use OPS or OPS+.
and smacks of revisionism and historical study absolutely demands that one make allowance for the way players were taught in their time.
Does historical study also demand that one pretends as if walks are worthless just because people at the time thought they were (which, again, is a premise that I reject and consider to be historical revisionism at its finest)?


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A film about Northwest hip-hop from 2010
R.C. The Trackaholiq
Cidewayz: Full Circle
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Cidewayz: Full Circle was created in 2010 and features appearances from:


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I am 36 years old, I live in Lima and I am a mature woman alone. I much prefer meeting people online for the good reason that it allows me to approach them more freely. I'm far too shy to go out clubbing or bar-hopping in search of potential suitors. I am available on Saturday and rather after my work. We can see each other in a public place. I am a mature woman and I get excited by young guys who are 41 or younger. I love being in charge during a one night stand because I know how to make you hard. I have no taboos because I am a frivolous lady. I prefer a man who is younger than me. But I don't have very many physical criteria. What turns me on is a man who's great in bed, so he can fulfill me during our future sexual encounter. Therefore, I invite you to contact me immediately if you want to give me an orgasm. I want a guy who's more dominant. Big kisses.
We're a couple looking for another couple to swing with in Lima. Let's meet up in a public place and see if we hit it off!
Adriana Lima Butt
First name: Margueritte, Age: 40 yo, City: Lima (NY)
We can have a date on Saturday, but we prefer that it take place at our house. We have a lot of toys. I'm a very hot girl with the guys. What I like is being with 2 guys who are pretty perverse because it turns me on to have two members for myself and my guy loves seeing me cum. If we post a sex ad, it's in the hope of enjoying ourselves with a man during an amazing encounter without limits. I'm a slutty chick who's good at getting dicks hard. You have the right to leave us a message if you want to get to know us for some sexy time. See you soon.
I'm an 18-year-old blonde who's craving sex from a virile man in Lima
Adriana Lima Butt
First name: Lore, Age: 18 yo, City: Lima (NY)
Hello guys, I am a 18 year old libertine woman named Lore. I work in a lingerie store. Other than that, I'm single because I want to have sex with hot rabbits. To find each other, we can go to my house or the restaurant. I'm available in the early evening, I'm not disagreeable. I have no experience with erotic games like swinging or anything else. I therefore wish to try these things with someone who has experience. To be honest, I don't really have a preference when it comes to my one night stands. It is important, however, that this lover be open-minded. I love long foreplay because I get so excited before we see each other. If you feel like it, you can leave a comment. I hope to meet you in Lima for this sex plan. Kisses. Bye.
Looking for a casual encounter in Lima
Adriana Lima Butt
First name: Encarnita, Age: 48 yo, City: Lima (NY)
Hello couples, my name is Encarnita and I am 48 years old. I am in a relationship with an H who is 43 years old. We're quite amateurish when it comes to sex. We do several things in libertinism. We are amateurs of threesome and even more voyeurism. There's no denying that forest sex is one of our favorite pastimes. We prefer to meet you in the city center. We're finally available on Friday. I'm looking for a fun and naughty guy who will make me feel good in the company of my man because I am a playful lady who likes to have two naughty guys all to herself. Now that you know what I'm looking for, feel free to leave me a comment. I'm sure I'll have a good time with you. I'm leaving. See you soon.
A young girl with no experience on Lima for her first one night stand
Adriana Lima Butt
First name: Ludwika, Age: 35 yo, City: Lima (NY)
I would like a man who is rather passionate and most importantly has a very beautiful tool to give me a lot of pleasure as I am a very greedy girl. I know how to play with my fuck buddies to turn them on. We can see each other on Lima and its surroundings. I'm generally free for a date during the week. I want an unfaithful one-night stand with a man who enjoys erotic games. I need someone who is available and without taboo in order to have fun. It's better not to be a novice if you want to be content in bed. If you meet my needs, you will remember it.
This couple from Lima would love to play in an exhibitionist club
Adriana Lima Butt
First name: Djelyssa, Age: 38 yo, City: Lima (NY)
Welcome couples, my name is Djelyssa and I am 38 years old. I am in a relationship and we are quite hot. We would like to arrange a meeting with you at our office, preferably during the week if that is convenient for you. If we write a sex ad, it is in order to have a good time with a man during an unlimited sex encounter. I'm a slutty girl who's good at getting cocks hard. We like a lot of things about libertinism and all that, obviously with respect and cleanliness. However, we mainly enjoy swinging with an experienced young man. Don't hesitate to leave a comment, we'll be happy to look at it. We hope to see you for a nice meeting between naughty people. Kisses. Bye bye.
A relatively inexperienced couple wants to discover swingers in Lima
Adriana Lima Butt
First name: Melise, Age: 21 yo, City: Lima (NY)
I'm only on this libertine site to have some fun with other like-minded people. My man is totally in agreement with this ad. I'm looking for a well-endowed man to have sex with so that my husband can see and get turned on. We're available at the end of the week if you want to get together and spend some time. We can give you an appointment at the libertine club if it suits you. We are a really open couple who loves to discover new things. We mainly enjoy exhibitionism and watching couples fuck in libertine clubs in the company of other libertines. So we just want to have some fun with another man. We are quite open-minded. We hope to read your comments soon. Kisses.
A mature woman in Lima is looking for a casual sex encounter
Adriana Lima Butt
First name: Anaell, Age: 49 yo, City: Lima (NY)
Welcome to my profile, I'm a rather greedy girl who is with someone but I cheat on my man. I work as a waitress and it's not very exciting. Since I'm the slutty type, I felt like looking for a guy. We can meet at my house or at a bar. I am available on weekends, I'm not a bother. I just want to have an orgasm. I'm attracted to guys who are pretty sexy. I also demand a man with a big dick because otherwise I don't cum. Role-playing games are part of my dreams. I naturally desire a guy who can be creative on this point to guide me in my stories and take me into his universe and fantasies. I hope for a date without taboos in Lima. I'm sure I'll have fun with you. I'm already very excited to discover you. Kisses.
Looking for a one night stand with an unfaithful woman in Lima
Adriana Lima Butt
First name: Elyna, Age: 50 yo, City: Lima (NY)
I want a man who is good in bed. Someone to do exhibition without anything forbidden. I just want to find someone for sex because I love doing dirty things without a hassle with a new guy. I'm trying lots of new things lately, so I want a good experienced partner. For this sex date, I'm okay with meeting up at your place. If you wish, I can agree to meet in a forest. So I'm looking to fuck with a guy who's not boring. If you please, let me know. It will be a pleasure to communicate my mail or phone so we can chat. Kisses.
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Lithuanian Honorary Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Weather : Temp: ° C, , Wind m/s, hpa
You will find information such as contact info, email, website address, opening hours and direction to the Lithuanian Honorary Consulate in Jeddah. The Embassy helps the government of Lithuania to maintain cordial economic, political, cultural, social and other transnational ties with the government of Saudi Arabia.
Head of Mission :
Mahfouz Marei Mubarak bin Mahfouz, Honorary Consul
Consular Services
Consulate services including visa, passport, document legalization, emergency travel document and assistance, and so on are provided by the embassy and/or consulate. Be sure to contact them ahead on how to book an appointment or be properly directed.
Appointment booking can be done via phone call during the official opening hours. The consulate may have dedicated support for Lithuania in Saudi Arabia, or prioritize their appointments
Visa and Passport
If you want to know more about the types of Visas for your travel to Lithuania or more information, you can get more information Lithuania Visa.
Visa types granted by Lithuania are;
- Lithuania Schengen Visa
- Lithuania Airport Transit Visa
- Lithuania Short Stay Visa
- Lithuania National Visa
- Lithuania Single Entry (D)
- Lithuania Multiple Entry (D)
- Lithuania Long stay national (D) visa
- Lithuania National visa D (work purpose)
- Lithuania National visa D (full-time study purpose)
Travel Insurance
Due to travel-related expenses like emergency evacuation, medical bills, and costs related to trip cancellation and interruption, a valid travel insurance is crucial when traveling to Afghanistan. Get a Travel insurance quote.
Lithuania Representation in Saudi Arabia
Lithuania is well represented in Saudi Arabia by Lithuanian Honorary Consulate in Jeddah . The Lithuanian Embassy is located in the capital city of Saudi Arabia and may (may not) provide the same services of the Lithuanian consulate located in another city. It is crucial to call for direction.
Lithuania and Saudi Arabia Representation in the World
Both countries have good bilateral relationships and they are well represented in different countries around the world. Lithuania has 207 Embassies and Consulates worldwide while Saudi Arabia has 107 Embassies and Consulates worldwide.
Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Due to the Coronavirus (COVID-19) disease the Lithuanian Honorary Consulate in Jeddah could have adjusted its office hours or services. Please do confirm personally.
Extensive research was done to put correct information on this page, also note that we frequently check and make sure this page is always up-to-date. However, we will not accept responsibility or liability for any mistake or omission on any of the information contained on this page.
* It might case this information is no longer correct, please help us to Update Embassy Information.
The purpose of your intended travel (Tourist, Business, Studies or etc) and other facts will determine what type of visa is required under Lithuania immigration law. As a visa applicant, you will need to establish that you meet all requirements to receive the category of visa for which you are applying.
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Shape: Hexagon
Size: Ultra Fine
Type: Holographic, Opaque
Material: Polyester - Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET)
We package ounces/grams by weight and teaspoons by volume.
*Pictures are enlarged to show the detail of products. Colors may vary due to lighting, camera, and variations of monitors and settings. All pictures are taken in a photo booth with LED lighting unless noted otherwise.
Product sizes are approximate.
Please wear the proper safety protection when handling and working with these products.
Neither Glitzy City LLC nor the manufactures make any warranties, expressed or implied, about the purpose and use of these products. The use, conditions, storage, and materials used with these products are out of our control. Results will vary based on materials used with, or in, these products. We will not be responsible for the loss of money or materials as a result of combining our glitters with incompatible products. Please test with a small amount to make sure these products fit your usage needs.


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Kingman, Arizona business licenses
Identify the licenses, permits, and how many you need to start or grow your business in Kingman.
Make finding and applying for business licenses less complicated
Getting the right business license is crucial to starting your company on the right foot. But identifying and applying for licenses can be confusing and complicated. Business Licenses by Avalara helps make it easier.
what we do:
- Help find licenses you may need when opening or expanding a business or meeting new license requirements
- Simplify and streamline the application process
- Prepare signature-ready applications (with Avalara License Preparation product)
Avalara License Guidance $99
Learn license requirements, find applications, and get help submitting them.
Avalara License Filing, starting at $499 per location
Let our business license experts prepare your applications for you.
Know why you need licenses and permits in Kingman
Some industries are highly regulated and can require many licenses. These regulations are often in place to help protect both your business and the community. Discover why licenses and permits are so important for these industries in Kingman.
Considerations when acquiring licenses/permits for construction in Kingman.
Considerations when acquiring licenses/permits for construction in Kingman.
Many construction jobs require some kind of building permit to get started in Kingman. You may be surprised by the construction jobs that require permits in Kingman. A minor remodeling job without the right permit in Kingman could land your business in major trouble. Always check with your local authorities before you begin construction to see if you need a building permit.
There are often environmental considerations when operating a construction business in Kingman. Waste and debris from construction sites can sometimes impact local ecosystems and waterways. Be sure to check for your local licenses in Kingman as well as any federal licenses or permits you may need.
Construction sites can be potentially dangerous places. Due to the inherent hazards that come with some jobs, there may be safety permits required to operate your construction business in Kingman. Safe work permits are frequently required by OSHA in addition to any local construction permits in Kingman.
Considerations when acquiring licenses/permits for restaurants in Kingman.
Considerations when acquiring licenses/permits for restaurants in Kingman.
You'll likely need a business license to open a cafe or restaurant in Kingman. This is in addition to any other local or state licenses that may be required in Kingman.
On top of your business license, you may need a food service license for your restaurant in Kingman. These licenses are often issued by the health department in your area. After you've gotten your food service license in Kingman, the health department will start making inspections of your business.
If your cafe or restaurant in Kingman serves any kind of beer, wine, cider, or spirits, you're likely going to need some type of beverage alcohol license. Your Kingman cafe or restaurant may require a general license for all types of alcoholic beverages, or a license just for beer and wine. Decide what drinks your business plans to sell, and learn the licenses you need to maintain compliance.
There are many regulations a freight and cargo transportation
business might need to comply with in Kingman.
Considerations when acquiring business licenses/permits for freight and cargo transportation in Kingman.
Depending on what you do, you may need a freight forwarder license to operate a freight transportation business in Kingman. This license allows businesses to manage transportation for third-party cargo. This license is often handled by the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, but you should see if additional licenses or permits are required in Kingman.
While a freight forwarding license may be required for managing shipments in Kingman, you might need a motor carrier permit if your business handles the actual shipping. There may be other permits and licenses necessary for freight carriers in Kingman.
One big license you'll likely need for your freight transportation business in Kingman is a commercial driver's license, or CDL. A CDL is required not only for drivers in Kingman, but for all commercial drivers across the U.S.
See where you might owe sales tax
Need to know where and when you owe sales tax? Get a free Economic Nexus Risk Assessment and learn your sales tax obligations.
Learn more about business licenses
Looking for answers to your business license questions? Connect with a tax solution specialist at Avalara today.
Learn more about business licenses
Connect with Avalara to learn more about the licenses your business may require.


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Price: $577.00
(as of Sep 07,2022 21:35:29 UTC – Details)
To calculate the overall star rating and percentage breakdown by star, we don't use a simple average. Instead, our system considers things like how recent a review is and if the reviewer bought the item on Amazon. It also analyzed reviews to verify trustworthiness.


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Consult with highly skilled and experienced Car Accident Lawyers in Anderson, SC to defend your car crash case.
If the car accident is produced on any basis that diverts from the safety standards for roads set for cars, you can file a road accident lawsuit. With the aid of the lawyers at Accident Lawyer Team Anderson, you can have a Fast Car Accident Lawsuit. You will get the right compensation for the harm that occurred by the car accident in Anderson. The talented attorneys at Accident Lawyer Team Anderson will help you through the car accident procedure thoroughly and will stay by your side throughout the legal process. For the Ideal Car Accident Lawyers in Anderson, we are the most prime law firm.
Accident Lawyer Team Anderson is a well-reputed law firm in Anderson. We handle road and traffic accident cases and make sure accident victims are given worthy justice. Choosing our attorneys, who are skilled and professional, will be worth the cost you spend. Our accident attorneys are attainable twenty-four hours a day in Accident Legal Consultation. We give the top accident consultation in Anderson.
Our lawyers at Accident Lawyer Team Anderson are well versed in the traffic laws and standards provided by Anderson, and will readily accept your auto accident cases. We get the highest Compensation For The Accident Victims at Accident Lawyer Team Anderson. If you face some sort of damage during an accident, the lawyers at Accident Lawyer Team Anderson can assist you. We will provide you with Quick Legal Help and relief. By Hiring our attorneys for accident compensation, you can get prime assistance in Anderson.
In cases of vehicle accidents, the injury must be compensated by law. The knowledgeable and experienced lawyers at Accident Lawyer Team Anderson will get you through the Vehicle Accident Claim made after you have been in a vehicle accident. You must hire our lawyers swiftly, in case any uncalled issue arises. We will get you through the legal process at the optimal money in Anderson. You will receive the right Legal Assistance from our lawyers, and have the correct firm present your case.
In cases of car crash accidents, you can file a lawsuit to compensate for the injury. The skilled and experienced lawyers at Accident Lawyer Team Anderson will get you through the Car Crash Claim, making sure you receive your correct compensation.
DUI is a capital crime. It can be dangerous to drive under influence. DUI cases are generally complicated and the Dui Car Accident Laws are difficult to grasp. Without a lawyer on your side, you cannot understand your case efficiently.
Recruiting the attorneys at Accident Lawyer Team Anderson will help you have a speedy legal procedure in automobile accident cases. You will receive the right Automobile Accident Legal Guidance From Our Lawyers, at the top rates in Anderson.
A good attorney from Accident Lawyer Team Anderson at your side will simply lead to better outcomes in your favor. Our Accident Lawyer will aid you to obtain worthy legal compensation through law during a car park accident claim anywhere in Anderson.
Accident Lawyer Team Anderson is the optimum law firm in Anderson for vehicle accidents. We Get Maximum Compensation With Vehicle Damage Lawyer for the damage created to your vehicle at Accident Lawyer Team Anderson, making sure you get the right justice.
Accident Lawyer Team Anderson offers the top legal guidance in cases of Fatal DamagEs During Car Accidents. At Accident Lawyer Team Anderson you can receive the optimal legal guidance for such frightening accident cases, anywhere in Anderson.
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I never expected such a positive outcome in my recent car accident case but Accident Lawyer Team Anderson's professional lawyer was fighting my case with great efforts and it was sure that he was on my side in the court and the compensation I recveived was incredible so I feel pleasure to recommend Accident Lawyer Team Anderson.


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HUNTSVILLE, Jan. 28, 2020 – State tax obligations for business owners – licenses, sales tax, property tax, withholding, etc. – are a lot to be responsible for. To help Alabama business owners better understand and master these requirements, the Alabama Department of Revenue (ADOR) invites business owners to ADOR's free Business Essentials for State Taxpayers (B.E.S.T.) Seminar on Tuesday, Feb. 11, at 9 a.m. or 1 p.m. in Huntsville.
The seminar will be held at the Huntsville Taxpayer Service Center, 4920 Corporate Drive, Suite H.
B.E.S.T. Seminars help new business owners navigate through unfamiliar tax complexities while updating current business owners on tax law changes. Conducted by ADOR specialists, B.E.S.T. Seminars offer a brief but comprehensive overview of Alabama's business taxes, the business owner's tax obligations, the necessary forms, and other requirements. Seminar attendees also receive information on electronic filing and Alabama's ONE SPOT (https://revenue.alabama.gov/sales-use/one-spot/), a free Internet portal that allows business taxpayers to file and pay state, county, and city sales, use, and rental taxes all in one place!
While there is no charge to attend the B.E.S.T. Seminars, reservations are required to ensure adequate space is available. Reserve your spot online for either the 9 a.m. session or the 1 p.m. session. Each attendee must register individually, even if they are from the same company. Once you've registered online, you will receive an email confirmation. If you have any questions, please call Dicillia Holman or
Melinda Richardson at 256-837-2319, ext. 0.
For more information on B.E.S.T. Seminars and other B.E.S.T. resources, visit our website at https://revenue.alabama.gov/taxpayer-advocacy/b-e-s-t-seminars/. B.E.S.T. Seminars are 2 ½ hours long plus additional time for questions and answers. Please plan to arrive at least 15 minutes prior to the scheduled seminar.


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This product is currently sold out.
I've always been drawn to the eclectic, colorful personality of cottage gardens, and have really loved working on each mark and shape that fills these outdoor spaces.
This floral work is an acrylic painting on a birch wood panel that is 2 inches deep. The sides of the painting are white and it is ready to hang. To see an update on what new work is entering the shop you can check out my Instagram! This painting includes shipping within the US.
If you are outside of the US, you can contact email@example.com with the size piece you are interested in, as well as your shipping address and we'll get back to you with a shipping quote!
All paintings ship out of my studio in Charleston, South Carolina.


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Product description
Often when restoring earlier VESPA models, the main body of the rear light unit is usually still serviceable, but the lens and the gasket of the light unit has its better days behind it. We have rear light lenses available for a large variety of VESPA rear light unit manufacturers. The main body of the light assembly and its complementary lens should always be from the same manufacturer. If you try to mix different producers of rear light unit parts, there is never a guarantee of an exact, watertight fit. If, for example, you wish to mount an original SIEM lens onto the body of a SIEM "repro" rear light you will have to modify one or the other for a proper fit.
SIEM: These lenses fit straight onto the main bodies of the originally produced SIEM rear light units. They all carry the original SIEM logo and the reflector part of the light lens has an aluminium surround frame.
SIEM "repro": Favourably priced reproduction version of the original SIEM rear light unit lens.
BOSATTA: These lenses only fit onto BOSATTA rear light units and are not interchangeable with units from other manufacturers.
SIP-TIP: Always order a new rear light lens gasket and suitable fixing screws when ordering a new lens for your light unit.


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Jam Monster
Grape 100mL by Jam Monster
E-Juice Disclaimer
NOT FOR SALE TO MINORS | E-Liquid ordered from the Southern Cloud Cartel is for Adult Use Only and may contain some or all of the following ingredients (Propylene Glycol and/or Vegetable Glycerin, Nicotine, Distilled Water, Alcohol, and Flavorings). If you are allergic to any of the E-Liquid ingredients listed above, are pregnant or breast feeding, have high blood pressure or a heart condition, diabetes or asthma please consult your Physician first before using any E-Liquid products. (CALIFORNIA PROPOSITION 65) Warning: Nicotine is a highly addictive substance and is known by the state of California to cause birth defects or other reproductive harm. E-Liquid is not intended for oral ingestion or prolonged contact with skin, eyes, or mucus membranes. Please keep all E-Liquids out of reach of children or pets for their safety. Southern Cloud Cartel will not be held liable for injuries resulting from the use or misuse of any E-Liquid product sold on this website. USE ALL PRODUCTS ON THIS SITE AT YOUR OWN RISK!


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Emtricitabine; tenofovir (brand name Truvada) is a nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitor (NRTI). It is one of the Top 250 Drugs (similar to the Top 200 Drugs or Top 300 Drugs) in ClinCalc.com's RxHero mobile app, FlashRX mobile app and The Top 250 Drugs online educational video course.
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Show AMA citation


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Womens Purple Pink Mermaid Capri Leggings
These premium women's capri leggings offers the perfect combination of performance and comfort.
✅ PRECISION CUT, SEWN, and PRINTED in USA/Mexico. We strive for quality and comfort.
✅ SUPER DETAILED GRAPHIC DESIGNING - All our adult leggings and capris are colorful, unique and top rated print designs. No one else will ever have the same outfit as you.
✅ NO SEE THROUGH - ALL our woman's leggings and capris are deep squat proof. They are Squats Approved!
✅ FOUR-WAY STRETCH - Fabric stretches, flex and recovers both on the cross and lengthwise grains.
✅ MICROFIBER YARN - Super smooth, light and comfortable. Quickly pull sweat away from your body to help you stay cool and dry when hot, yet warm when you're cold. Breathable material to help ease the unpleasant smell of a hard workout.
✅ EXCELLENT FIT - Designed to fit tightly to your body, our fabric blend allows you a wide range of motion. Nothing but the right level of compression, no restriction on movement. True to size.
✅ 82% Polyester + 18% Spandex
Crafted from a high performance fabric blend ( 82% Polyester + 18% Spandex ) that has a medium hold waistband for ultra comfort and feels flattering against the skin. Super durable soft fabric has a enhancing four way stretch to allow the legging to hug and move with the body.
It is moisture wicking, fully breathable and quick drying.
These active leggings are perfect for the following athletic sports / exercise:
▶ Surfing and Body Boarding
▶ Wakeboarding and Kite Surf
▶ Stand Up Paddle Boarding
▶ BJJ ( Brazilian JuiJitsu )
▶ Judo
▶ Crossfit
▶ Running / Jogging
▶ Rockclimbing
▶ Gym / Workouts / Yoga / Pilates / Dance
▶ Everyday Casual Wear - Athleisure
The leggings are bound to become your favorite stylish workout pants! They make a great trendy addition to your work out wardrobe.
Turn heads at the gym or wherever you go.
Get yours Today!
✅ All our women's printed leggings are made in USA/Mexico. We strive for high quality and comfort.
➡ If you're between sizes we recommend a size up. (Please refer to the last image for the sizing guide).
Female Model is wearing size XS. 5'7", 24" waist, 34" hip, 31.5" bust.
⚠ Keep in mind that we print on demand, everything is handmade ( designer color printing, cutting and sewing ) just for you in America/Mexico. Therefore, we can take about 2-5 business days (depending on workload) to create your new leggings.