text:
A technology blog from
Monday, November 19, 2007
Don't flame me, bro'
Recently there has been a sharp increase in the amount of abusive language on the
New Scientist
. No, it's not because our writers have become degenerates, it's because we rolled out a new commenting facility on all articles, giving people the chance to share their thoughts and opinions across the site.
I am particularly conscious of this trend because, as the moderator, I keep an eye on all comments and have to remove any that break our
House Rules
. This means I read a lot of comments (826 last week) and while most of them are perfectly polite, there's a stubborn minority that are rude, intentionally provocative, or just plain abusive. It seems people will say things online that they would never say face-to-face.
My pet theory about why people behave so rudely is that online commenting is treated, by most people, like a
pub conversation
– they don't necessarily expect to be taken seriously and the social rules are fairly relaxed. And yet, because comments appear in cold text without important cues like friendly body language, they can easily seem more offensive than if they would otherwise. As a result some people get annoyed, and the
After being described a few weeks ago as "a self-lobotomised liberal who can't face the facts", I decided to look into the psychology of online behaviour a bit further. Much of the research on online communication has looked at email, but it seems that many of the results can be generalised to apply to chat rooms and forums too.
Social psychologists have known for decades that, if we reduce our sense of our own identity – a process called
– we are less likely to stick to social norms. For example, in the 1960s
Leon Mann
studied a nasty phenomenon called "suicide baiting" – when someone threatening to jump from a high building is
encouraged to do so by bystanders
. Mann found that people were more likely to do this if they were part of a large crowd, if the jumper was above the 7th floor, and if it was dark. These are all factors that allowed the observers to lose their own individuality.
Social psychologist
Nicholas Epley
argues that much the same thing happens with online communication such as email. Psychologically, we are "distant" from the person we're talking to and less focused on our own identity. As a result we're more prone to aggressive behaviour, he says.
Another factor influencing online communication, according to Epley, is simply the risk of miscommunication involved with text-based messages, which are inherently more ambiguous. At the same time, he notes, email "has the feel of informality – we just fire something off", even though we probably ought to treat it with the same care as a written letter. And, as most people probably know, this can cause problems for both the sender and the receiver.
Epley explains further: "If I send a joke in an email, it'll be ambiguous when it gets to you. That's hard for me to detect: the joke is funny, and I use that knowledge to judge how you'll interpret it." But the receiver may not realise that the email is meant as a joke – particularly if they are in a bad mood to start with – and that can lead to horrified responses like "I can't believe you just said that" and to an unnecessary argument.
In 2005, Epley showed that people can vastly overestimate their
ability to communicate unambiguously by email
. He suggests that we find it hard to take another person's perspective when communicating electronically. Similarly, a forthcoming study by
Kristin Byron
found that people tend to interpret emails more negatively than other forms of communication (
Academy of Management Review
, volume 33, issue 2), making them even more likely to respond aggressively.
Another obvious factor is that, if you insult someone online, it's unlikely you'll face any physical retaliation for it. Epley compares the resulting psychological distance to being isolated inside a car – another situation that seems to make people more prone to abusiveness.
I'm not sure what we can do to minimise miscommunication and abuse online. But being aware that we're not as good at communication online as we'd like to think seems like a good start. I know I often have to restrain myself from joining in.
Michael Marshall, online editorial assistant
Posted by Michael Marshall at 4:24 PM
digg this
All comments should respect the
New Scientist House Rules
. If you think a particular comment breaks these rules then please
let us know,
quoting the comment in question.
Michael Marshall needs to take his neo-nazi propaganda elsewhere. He wreaks of ignorance on this topic. Hatred and violence toward sub-humans such as Michael Marshall are the only solution to spreading this false doctrine!
just kidding.
The topic on suicide baiting was more interesting.. newscientist should expand on this.
November 19, 2007 6:25 PM
I'm guilty of posting a few flames here, I think.
I've posted one or two harsh comments in situations where the headline and discussion in the article was so dominated by sensationalist speculation, and so lacking a picture of the on-the-ground scientific reality, that I felt that the article just needed to be denounced.
Actually, this problem affects many NewsSientist writings, some more some less, and in the end it leaves the public with an unscientific understanding of the scientific situation. I think this is a disservice.
Is there any possibility of turning this around?
November 19, 2007 6:31 PM
The fact that a website with objectively reported scientific articles is getting rude comments or being "flamed" with greater frequency may be part of a wider trend. At least in the U.S. I see a gradual but inexorable cultural movement towards a fundamentalist religious preoccupation. The fundamentalist Christian perspectrive on science is often not favorable. Such a movement is not without prescedent in the U.S. throughout its history. I think it is a shame since the movement to a predominantly more secular religious stance favorable to scientific development is part of what made the U.S. a dominant superpower over the past century or more. I can't say for sure if this applies to other nations.
November 19, 2007 6:58 PM
So we just met a flamer, and a troll in the first 3 comments! I love an article that lets other people post the proof :-)
November 19, 2007 7:16 PM
It's not just religious; many people are "not religious" but lacking the scientific training necessary in particular to realise that a scientific study and personal opinion are very different things, leading to dogmatic assertions without substantiation being thrown at scientists. Please don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that science is immune to this itself. But the amount of times I've heard someone say "that's just some scientist's opinion, I've just as much right to mine"... I think a lot of it is to do with a failure to realise that one can have ones own opinions but not ones own facts (I forget who said that). Also I think any move towards fundamentalism has a lot to do with a need for security and so that's going to lead to trolling and flames when someone has the temerity to say something that others see as being in conflict with their world view.
Also see Penny Arcade's strip on the "Greater Internet F***wad Theory" (apologies for the name). That seems to sum it up pretty well!
November 19, 2007 7:18 PM
Anonymity is what makes the web both wonderful and dangerous at the same time.
Anonymity allows freedom of speech to those who's human rights are normally controlled.
On another level we are also control by the rules of socially acceptable behaviour which unfortunately is also escaped by anonymity. Social systems have evolved to allow us to 'all get along' by damping emotional or irrational behaviour, there are unwritten rules that when acting anonymously one is left to adhere to at one's own discretion.
Social acceptance should not be treated as oppression to escaped, but instead as courtesy.
It is interesting how hatred breeds hatred. It seems to create a feedback loop that takes a long time to die off.
November 19, 2007 7:35 PM
i mod a p2p site and we've always had trolls. perhaps 5 percent of the members are regularly vicious in thier comments. this has been occuring since 1999.
i'm not sure of the cause but i'm fairly certain these posters have serious personal issues offline as well.
i'm not much of a beliver in a voodoo internet that turns mild mannered, well reasoned individuals into monsters.
November 19, 2007 7:44 PM
I've been a professional troll and hater for like 10 years. My favorite is on halo microphone, victims can hear the tone of my hate too. I never knew why I was like this, but now I do. Thanks!
November 19, 2007 7:53 PM
So we just met a flamer, and a troll in the first 3 comments! I love an article that lets other people post the proof :-)
Not to mention we got Goodwin's Law out of the way on the first...
Guess this article is built in flamebait
November 19, 2007 8:03 PM
One thing that can help - a lot - is use of contextual clues such as emoticons etc to help fill in the tone that's missing in textual conversation. Consider "hey :)" versus "hey >:(" and the immediate difference in meaning one can generally take away from the two examples. More context = less misunderstanding.
November 19, 2007 8:09 PM
One other piece of the puzzle: "Last word syndrome".
In a FTF conversation, there is a lot of rapid give-and-take. Even if I am disagreeing with someone, there is a sense that we have to agree to communicate in some sort of alternation. No one really gets the last word.
Online, it's too easy to think "Aha, I can shoot *that* idiot's argument down with a comprehensive proof of his fallacies. And thus I will have the last word".
Except I don't, because the presumed idiot can and will often respond in exactly the same mind set.
The more this goes on, the more it inflames (pun intended) the subject's behaviour elsewhere. Even in a different context, they may be carrying the same "chip" and immediately inject that energy into a new conversation.
Charles Roth
November 19, 2007 8:16 PM
Often times what happens is that the site eBaumsworld finds out about a random site and they'll start trolling and starting unnecessary flame wars just to annoy the site admins. They really are just total jerks over there.
November 19, 2007 8:24 PM
I used to be taught that people have two ears and only one mouth, so that we should all listen more often that we talk.
The problem with email and chat rooms is that those writing have ten fingers, but only one brain.
Barry Haworth
November 19, 2007 8:26 PM
I think the increased abusiveness, in the nature of the comments, you are receiving, is just a result of the internet becoming less elitist. Access to the internet is becoming much more affordable so that ordinary people, like me, can surf the internet for the first time. You leave your comments section open to all comers, so what are you expecting!
Perhaps, the pub is one of the few places where you actually get to meet people of different social backgrounds. Surely you must realise that many, many people, maybe the majority, do swear and act aggressively to each other on a regular basis, at work and at home, this isn't even anything new. Obviously, in your world, hierarchies are justly defined and strictly enforced but this is not the case for everyone. Unfortunately, few people are given that security and respect in their everyday lives. And, I would say you actually receive less abusiveness from people because of the lack of feedback, in the form of social cues, you get from posting a comment in writing. Where is the reward in acting aggressively when the recipient of the aggression does not flinch or cower straight after you raise your voice and start criticising them aggressively? Where is the reward in intimidating someone when you are almost completely anonymous, accept for an IP address?
November 19, 2007 8:34 PM
It's not the fact that we (the people) are flaming you, it's the fact that you need to write better blogs. There is no doubt that the reason we flame you is that either we
don't like the fact you are posting these random ass blogs or it could be that we don't like you.
Pools closed bitches
November 19, 2007 8:40 PM
on comment #3, "I think it is a shame since the movement to a predominantly more secular religious stance favorable to scientific development is part of what made the U.S. a dominant superpower over the past century or more."
Actually, I think it was more our ability to exploit other nations and push them further into the third world as we became more first world. But scientists are always known for knowing nothing about the greater political and sociological issues in the world around them.
November 19, 2007 8:48 PM
Remove the comment feature
and the flamers will go away and others who are interested in what you have to say will continue to read.
November 19, 2007 8:57 PM
Maybe, I am being very naive here. But, is this Michael Marshall dropping a subtle hint to his employers to end the open door policy on comments because reading comments is taking up too much of his valuable time?
November 19, 2007 9:19 PM
People are just getting used to the ever increasing informality of posting and emailing and commenting. Smileys are very important but I think it's more important that people take a more laid back attitude towards posts. As said, there is no fear of a physical response to hold the flamers back. But the same goes for the people offended. Why would you let a complete stranger offend you, when you could also read the message as a joke or sarcasm. It's just a switch you should pull when reading anything on the internet really.
November 19, 2007 9:53 PM
I suggest anonymity cuts both ways. People, realizing they are anonymous and distant will let their true feelings and opinions flow. And, unfortunately, some of those comments are moronic.
Which is to say... the anonymous internet allows some people to let their inner anger flow... for others it simply frees their inner moron.
November 19, 2007 9:59 PM
Internet toughguys show off their "skills" in the arena known as "4chan".
The horrors....
November 19, 2007 10:59 PM
Some of us are far too polite to flame. Excuse me, I'm Canadian.
November 19, 2007 11:40 PM
It's a simple answer, really. It's about accountability. Anonymity removes accountability. Anonymous comments are always lower-brow than email, which is always lower-brow than face-to-face.
Road rage is another example of loss of accountability leading to doing and saying things you would otherwise not, if you knew you would be held accountable to those actions.
I really doubt it's rocket science.
But, there's a new technology about to be released that will solve this problem. Watch for it in January.
November 19, 2007 11:53 PM
I think you miss the point. Flaming and trolling and etc. are rhetorical tools, just as sarcasm, condescencion, irony, humor and smiley faces are tools to be used in a forum.
Whining about the other guy's choice of tools is yet another open forum tool: pity and self-pity. It is an attempt to build consensus and rally the troops to battle. Increase the noise and the signal is lost, which is the point.
What we really need is for schools to teach rhetoric so that we can elevate the quality of the tool selection.
November 20, 2007 12:31 AM
Two observations.
(1) 'Also see Penny Arcade's strip on the "Greater Internet F***wad Theory" (apologies for the name). That seems to sum it up pretty well!'
-- The name of the theory alone constitutes a huge leap in our understanding of the roughly half of all people who disagree with me politically. Now THAT is a great theory!
(2) "in the end it leaves the public with an unscientific understanding of the scientific situation. I think this is a disservice. Is there any possibility of turning this around?"
-- Based on the quality of thought I see demonstrated (including humorous comments) I'd say the readers here are not your average Fox News believers. New Scientist readers seem able to think critically. What are you worried about? If they're reporting on people who disagree with you, that's easy. (See my item #1.)
November 20, 2007 12:33 AM
It is fun to say something outrageous that is bound to make people flip their wigs, and have a laugh. That is why we troll. If someone gets mad and goes off, you have been trolled, you have lost. Have a nice day!
November 20, 2007 1:30 AM
I think this is a fascinating social phenomenon, akin to crowd/mob mentality and a variant of mass hysteria.
It's interesting to note the difference in behaviour between purely anonymous commenting systems, and feedback-oriented systems as on eBay or Slashdot. Both the existence and the nature of the feedback is seemingly significant.
A related (I think) phenomenon is griefers on internet forums. This seems less to do with strict anonymity, and more to do with a form of internet elitism. In fact, in my experience the emergence of griefers tends to happen more in quasi-anonymous forums and not in completely anonymous forums, which seem to be the domain of trolls and flamers.
November 20, 2007 1:57 AM
I'm surprised the author of this post was unfamiliar with the extensive academic literature on flaming.
Turnage (2007) for instance attempts to construct a testing scale on which to analyse what a "flame" might be.
Beyond the limited scope of the reference material the narrow field of view is also unfortunate. Literature on communication meaning and the impact of non-verbal behaviour is not just the province of psychology, linguistics anthropology and even sociology have fruitful programs of study that have implications for this form of study. How people react to flaming is something that people in the field of pragmatics, and discourse analysis have effectively probe, without any of the positivism normally associated with approaches such as Mann's.
I do certainly appreciate the interesting phenomenon under study here, I just hope to highlight how many areas of study are in fact compatible to this form of analysis.
Turnage, A. K. (2007). Email flaming behaviors and organizational conflict. Journal of Computer-Mediated Communication, 13(1), article 3. http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol13/issue1/turnage.html
November 20, 2007 2:12 AM
Actually, the reason so many people are so mean to each other on the internet, is because the other person can't reach through the screen and punch them in the nose for being a jerk.
Fix that problem, and people will be a lot nicer to each other.
Alexsandyr Troutnoodler
November 20, 2007 4:15 AM
Age. Thats the problem.
The majority of 'troll/hate/flame' posts that come through on many forums are because of the age of the posters.
Solution: Keep anyone under the age of 25 from posting on your forums. (Flame wars can still occur but they are usually subject related not personal). :)
November 20, 2007 5:52 AM
just add LOBBYING in the list of reasons
for the growth of insults on forums and
blogs, that's my personal experience (as
writer of, often "disliked", arguments on
my blog ghostNASA.com and my website
gaetanomarano.it) talking about Space
on several Space forums and blogs... :(
just TRY to write articles or posts with
CRITICS about Space companies and/or
space agencies' choices... then, you will
(IMMEDIATELY) receive LOTS of insults
from users that (hidden by their strange
nicknames) run that kind of forums and
blogs ONLY to support the business and
the policies of the companies they work
for, and write against ALL the blog/forum
users that have different opinions (after
all, the money involved in that business,
is in the range of SEVERAL Billion$$$...)
if the insults are not enough to stop you
other serious censorships could happen
like was last september with ghostNASA
after posting "too much" protests about
the "bad events" explained in this article:
November 20, 2007 7:22 AM
It's kinda funny that people like George Carlin make a fortune bitching about how f'ing stupid people are, yet you cry about people writing angry emails or posts. I for one greatly appreciate peoples expression of anger and rage in emails and blogs. American society is becoming WAY WAY WAYYYYYY too polite and pussified. America is the land of the politically correct and sissified. Ohhh, don't say anything that offends women, gays, minorities, etc or you'll have the likes of media hounds and mega hypocrits Jesse Jackson and that other moron. This society f'ing sucks, and it's politeness that is ruining it.
Get some f'ing balls and express your anger you sissys.
November 20, 2007 7:47 AM
This is why people should use more emoticons. Sure its only a little icon, but you can show your personal state to other people so they will recognize your feelings at the moment you write something.
I use it even in business emails...
November 20, 2007 8:47 AM
"Based on the quality of thought I see demonstrated (including humorous comments) I'd say the readers here are not your average Fox News believers. New Scientist readers seem able to think critically."
The trolling of smug people who have still potential for mental developement seems to be a bigger problem than flaming.
November 20, 2007 8:54 AM
Might I suggest an experiment? Presumably your system logs the poster's IP address.
As well as automating abuse flags (several posts in a row is a good one) manual flagging should be applied to the messages.
Now, do
remove abusive messages. Make them visible if they are ok
they come from the current IP address. The result - abusers can see their comments but others cannot.
Now watch what happens when, however hard they try, they are ignored.
I had a lot of fun with this one!
November 20, 2007 9:05 AM
RE: Comment #3. A clarification. It is amusing in retrospect that in a way my comment was somewhat inflammatory. Perhaps I was in a bad mood or under influenced tacitly by the title of the article. The was simply offering sympathy to the blogger while tying in a lament about what I see as an eroding of respect from the lay public and funding from the U.S. gov't with regard to the sciences and those who practice them over the last 40 years or so. While at the same time the fundamentalist Christain movements are gaining in popularity in the mainstream along with doctrines such as Intelligent Design and Creationism. Fundamentalist Christian views are at root of the fundation of the U.S., an example beign the Puritans. Fortunately the founders of the constitution wisely sought to separate religious from secular matters with regards to state affairs and education. Now it is not only a matter of opinions versus facts but religious beliefs versus facts. These trends to not bode well for the future of the U.S. as a continuing technological leader when nations such as the E.U., India, and China are rapidly progressing in the basic sciennces and arguably ahead of the U.S. now in some areas. With regards to how the U.S. became a superpower I was referring to how it established military supremacy ie WW2.
I agree that anonymity is a double edged sword. You will get more honest opinions and varied opinions, but a breakdown in organization from the intended subject, which can result in chaos and disorganization. To maintain sanity, the blogger may have to impose and enforce rules.
November 20, 2007 10:28 AM
Mike has the solution right there - three different forums I've done this too, and three times it was a resounding success. It's nothing more than attention-seeking behaviour.
November 20, 2007 11:10 AM
Just eliminate the ability for people to be anonymous in thier leaving of comments, make sure they register and obtain an identity.
November 20, 2007 1:32 PM
I've always enjoyed a good spot of trollery now and again. Conversely, I also enjoy the occasional bit of counter-trollery as well. If I happen upon some sanctimonious piffle dishing out the old rubbish, I give'em what-for with a cherry on top. But if a fella's being hysterical, I turn all super-reasonable to make sure he appreciates that he's an incoherent, overemotional effeminatus who needs a straitjacket. Tehehe
November 20, 2007 1:36 PM
as a troll can i first point out you sir are a noob. The great thing about the internet is it's all lies and propaganda, even new scientist prints nonsense pseudoscience to propagate it's liberal doctrine. The reason people troll and flame is because freed from the social constraints of normalized life we can express our true feeling, which means we can cut through the bland 'don't mention the war' socialcontrol imposed on us and reach the truth quicker.
Ok well not quite the truth but a fuller 'grocking' of the situation. I take it you know how to use wikipedia properly? first you read the article then head over to the talk page to find what the wikinazis have deemed not worthy of the finished article - this quickly fills you in on the conventional wisdom of the event and gives you some idea of the issues surrounding it.
The Guardians talk pages are especially good example of this -see the comments of any story about the middle east and you'll find the bare bones of the issues laid bare as everyone with an vague knowledge or interest in the events battles to the death. Mrs so and so from Israel argues with Mr whoever from New York and a few dozen random view points skirmish round the edges, in this we can learn what people think of each other, how the see the issues, what angle do they come from, etc, etc.
To you Trolling might be the decline of civilization but boring stuck in the past establishment types think that about everything good which has ever happened. Either get with the program and reevaluate your understanding of communication or GTFO my internets kthx lol.
November 20, 2007 1:39 PM
this is copypasta from ebaums world - this is their INTERNET TERRORIST TRAINING MANUAL- this isn't a real news board at all but a trolling station, its where we practice trolling -sharpen our claws before in mock battles before heading out the the epic battlefields of youtube comments!
most of the exstream views you hear are infact someone (often me) trolling, the game is say the most absurd and insane thing then defend your point using logical fallacy, retarded argumentation and made up statistics. For major points you can make up an entire news article (or edit an existing one) and post it, lulz ensure! (oh and don't worry no one ever checks the validity of sources it's sort of a gentleman's agreement we have)
so welcome to EBAUMS WORLD, strap on those dueling pistols and get ready to fight.
[the conclusion of this comment has been edited to remove some obscene language. Yes, we realise it was meant as a joke, but rules are rules]
November 20, 2007 2:09 PM
I would be happy simply if your posters could spell properly. These juvenile or ill-informed attacks are readily recognised for what they are.
November 20, 2007 2:38 PM
This is the internet. The last bastion of democracy. Like all things, you take the good with the bad and it's worth it. If you haven't already, I suggest you deal with it.
Because only on the internet can skinny nerds, hellbound athiests, and Anti-Chinese Communist Party citizens can voice their opinions without retaliation. If it contains a lot of profanity, then so be it. The profanity is justified.
To finish this comment, allow me to offer you a protip that may enlighten you on why some people choose to abuse and troll others online: Because it's funny.
Internet: You're an idiot if you take everything seriously.
You're a New Scientist staff for god- I mean, science's sake. You should know better.
†Invisible Sky Magician†
November 20, 2007 2:38 PM
No one's ever heard of the Monkeysphere? Since none of you are in mine, you're all a bunch of sh**tcamels to me!
November 20, 2007 3:10 PM
listen paul put your dictionary forcibly up your anus and GTFO - if you can understand a post thats good enough, this aint no high minded bookclub or national news paper its the interwebs and i dont have time to check my spelling or any of that nonsence its really not that important if it hurts your brain to communicate in a more freeform way then screw you mister because grammer is dead baby - VIVA LA INTERNETS lol
November 20, 2007 3:13 PM
I think you are completely correct. After playing games online for about 10 years any comment can be preceived as offensive. Even in cases where the comment is to just be funny the audience is so broad in an open forum that it is nearly impossible to not offend.
The single offender then sees a chance to retalliatle whereas in a public face to face setting they typically would not. Mood is also another problem where one person having a bad day can cause drama for all.
November 20, 2007 3:32 PM
Go once dead,m MoFo.
Greets Wim Heitinga
November 20, 2007 3:34 PM
Thanks for all your comments! A few responses:
Thanks to Twilight who pointed out the Turnage reference discussing flaming - I'll be delving into that and will hopefully write some more on it in the future.
To Anonymous who wonders if this article was me pitching to remove the "open door policy" on comments - no it wasn't. :) I just got interested.
To some recent users who've posted comments that verge on abusive - please stick to the
House Rules
. I realise there's a sort of performance art in posting flames on an article discussing flames, and it's kind of ironic, but seriously. :)
Oh and lastly, Tom (our online tech reporter) pointed out
this video about another problem of the modern age
: namely, people who always post first on everything just to say "first".
Michael Marshall, online editorial assistant
November 20, 2007 3:42 PM
Removing the ability to leave anonymous comments would probably reduce the intentional and excessive abuse, trolling and flaming as most people can't be bothered to re-register if they are banned for breaking the rules.
A note on trolling though, a successful troll is not quickly identified as such.
November 20, 2007 4:07 PM
Trolls are just people like the "Unabomber" that have access to the Internet.
Think about it, if the Unabomber had been able to spread his anger and hatred "bombs" all over the Internet he would not have had to assemble and mail real bombs.
November 20, 2007 4:20 PM
Ha, i feel kinda stupid now Having 'flamed' on other sites.
Can you explain why my immediate desire was to call you all sorts of names ("a self-lobotomised liberal who can't face the facts" was a good one)
and then say "Just kidding, great article"?
You should expand on the 'Suicide Baiting' in a future article. Never heard of it till today and sounds very interesting..
November 20, 2007 5:22 PM
Any information on gender differences in abusive or aggressive postings?
November 20, 2007 5:25 PM
ahhh the...
"Don't _____ me, bro" line
November 20, 2007 5:33 PM
The example linked to in the article of the suicide attempt by the Seattle "woman" is a poor one because she was causing literally hundreds of thousands of people to be delayed that morning. It's obvious why the people were rooting for "her" to get it over with.
November 20, 2007 5:34 PM
Although most of the arguments are valid. I feel that bringing up de-individuation isnt entirely appropriate. This phenomena occurs when you are with large crowds, or can occur when you are given a specific role to follow. Milgrim's famous shock experiment shows a similar phenomena to de-invdiduation that closely resembles diffusion of responsibility becuase we follow blindly when there are either A) large crowds or B) someone with unquestioned authority. I feel that people's patterns of speech on the internet can't really be attributed to social psychology, but falls more towards your comments about being protected from consequences for your actions. Thus, this would lead me to believe that operant conditioning is more at play here, with the internet acting as a discriminitve stimuli that signals that no punishment will occur for unwanted behavior.
November 20, 2007 5:40 PM
also see Internet Disinhibtion Syndrome
Trolling--it's like flying a plane full of screaming innocents into a skyscraper, but not dying in the process. Wheee!
November 20, 2007 5:48 PM
Is this battletoads?
November 20, 2007 6:16 PM
Internets - serious business.
November 20, 2007 6:17 PM
What you write is true, but by no means comprehensive. The need for nonverbal cues is tremendously important. This has lead to the use of emoticons and breakout comments that instruct the reader how to interpret the rest of the text (e.g. :-) , *grin*, and j/k).
However, there are other important cues, such as social status and class that are lost via anonymous text. There has been a backlash to the use of emoticons by some people who look down upon their use and the people who use them. This is the internet equivalent of banning certain vulgar words, such as "sh*t", because they are used by the lower classes. This leads not to the accidental misunderstanding of internet communications but to
misunderstandings, useful to the receiver to cause trouble for the sender.
As often as language is used to bring people together, it is also used to tear people apart. However, the anonymity of the internet doesn't hide or diminish our humanity. On the contrary, it encourages us to shed our affected veneer of civility, revealing us for who and what we really are: insecure children desperately seeking a truth that puts us at the center of the universe.
November 20, 2007 6:30 PM
What, this is supposed to be new?
November 20, 2007 6:43 PM
Humans are all jerks. Everyone is evil. Case closed.
November 20, 2007 7:23 PM
No my friend this isn't new or science - it's an aside. The real world of science marches on, the internet diversifies and new forms of communication are created and disposed off -letters give way to emails and no we they aren't the same nor should they; we're starting to grow up as a people and communicate in much more complex ways. I like what anon said about how in real life you might get in a fight, your mom got scared and said you're moving in with your aunt and uncle in bellair.
November 20, 2007 7:34 PM
I'm reading through the comments, thinking how bizarre it all is. There is no doubt that people like to criticize in the online realm (when face-to-face they do the same thing, but they internalize it!). The fact that they are leaving comments at all, however, is interesting and I think speaks to good writing. But being a writer and having the first few comments left slamming the crap out of you...these are not easy comments to read. Moreover, many comment slams are completely baseless. As a writer who has done his homework, do you want others to read the baseless comments that may influence how a user considers your work?
I moderate the comments on my site. It's sad -- I would really like to not do this. Much audience interactivity is lost because of it. But darn it, it is my site! I've worked very hard on it. And in my instance 95% of the crap is flat out lies. They never have solid facts to back up their condemnations. In fact, the only people who do leave comments at my site are 100% opposed to my position. Did I really create the site with a commenting system to have this? So, people that do agree with me don't leave comments. People that disagree ALWAYS leave comments...!
November 20, 2007 7:35 PM
Perhaps commenting is overrated. Maybe we should give thought to shutting down comments on websites. If you think your comments are so important blog on your own site.
November 20, 2007 7:36 PM
The BBC actually use this as an excuse to keep things locked down on their Have Your Say system.
It's just an excuse though. They don't really like people criticising their journalism.
I think all articles published should have a facility for the public to comment. Sure, people can be rude, but that is no excuse to avoid discussion. Communities can police themselves and people can easily click on a "Report this Message" button.
November 20, 2007 7:37 PM
I think that some people want to be other
Dan Rastor
November 20, 2007 7:54 PM
I'm with JackSpratts, I think it's just a small percentage of users, say 5 or 10 percent, who generate almost all of the flames and hate speech.
November 20, 2007 8:14 PM
It's completely the anonymity factor.
My version goes like this: Flamers and trollers confuse the word 'internet' with 'safety net'. Anonymous/pseudonym posting gives people the freedom to say things in a social setting, that would get their teeth pushed down their throat when face-to-face.
Which is why I don't agree with the 'pub setting' portion of the analogy. Drunk folks aren't shy about letting you know when they think you're out of line, and will often demonstrate that fact physically. (Note: Not that one is actually out of line - drunk folks, like trolls, aren't that bright either.)
November 20, 2007 8:47 PM
I can't believe that you are writing a blog for new scientist and have no clue about how to use a
on messages left by trolls!
November 20, 2007 10:10 PM
Michael Marshall does a great job - much appreciated by those of us who read New Scientist for the science.
Anne W
November 20, 2007 10:11 PM
It's about politics and religion. Science and technology are questioning certain areas of life which are traditionally dealt by blind tradition. More interconnected human race can not escape the inevitable mergin of values and cultures and the questioning of every aspect of their beliefs and traditions. Is it not this the very cause for the existence of Al-Qaida and such movements?
November 21, 2007 3:06 AM
Remove the comments feature. Problem Solved
November 21, 2007 9:00 AM
Either think for yourself or basically screwed like everyone else. Those that cannot think for themselves can never be helped !
November 21, 2007 10:28 AM
I've come to dislike the 'blogosphere' for the reasons you mention (among others), and find that the climate has become increasingly polarized, mostly brutes on one end and lofty academics on the other, with both camps carrying an air of elitism.
The need to type (as opposed to think) on one's feet often yields text of little importance in the long run.
Another horrifying development is the blog reader's belief that someone's comment(s) represent their entire thought(s) on any given subject, a weird dynamic that's probably responsible for a great deal of sniping and nasty attitudes.
I believe the core of the problem is everything being free of charge. If a person had to pay to start a blog (like we who have websites have to pay our hosts) or, better yet, pay to comment, an advance in quality would be likely. As it stands, it's anarchy and it's stirring a lot of bad blood for no good reason.
November 21, 2007 3:30 PM
You suck!
Heh, but seriously, it helps if you don't allow purely anonymous comment posting.
November 21, 2007 3:31 PM
Just like any other form of discussion, there is going to be a range of responses to any posting. If people want to be rude, they're going to be rude, in-person and online.
It seems NS house rules (aka editorial guidelines for those with any formal training) are a little "pussified" as one poster already pointed out. That doesn't mean a moderator isn't suspect of their own interpretation of those rules.
I believe more offensive than posting hater comments is people's inability to read objectively. As with Fox News or an obviously skewed article/report/blog, why can't a person understand where their filters and bias comes from?
-Tired of Wasteful input
November 21, 2007 3:57 PM
Only a fool takes fools serious.
Only a troll takes trolls serious.
Paul Groot
November 21, 2007 6:21 PM
It's meaningful, that only one person (before me) dares to use his full name in this discussion. Bravo Barry!
By the way, we have the same problem here in the Netherlands.
paul groot
November 21, 2007 6:41 PM
Very similar to genovese syndrome...
November 22, 2007 2:32 AM
I should elaborate on that point to explain why I feel it is similar to genovese syndrome...
I was thinking of the process of de-individualization leading to anti-social behavior. Odd.
In the context when someone needs help, people tend to do nothing. When someone is constructively working to build something, we throw stones.
I suppose it is easier to tear things down than build them up.
Also of note, many right wing think tanks and lobby groups are paying staff to flame progressive blogs. Here's a local example from my neighborhood:
November 22, 2007 3:25 AM
I think people do it for their own jollies, and if done right trolling can be funny but great article, sorry you have to moderate
done for now
November 22, 2007 4:54 AM
One aspect of anonymity that has not been touched on is that there is no easy way to see that a flood of anonymous posts came from a dozen different people or just one person with too much time on their hands.
Likewise this stops the blogs having a killfile because each anonymous poster is a new person. Just post a hash of their ip address as their id and then add a "hide all posts by this user" button and away we go.
Personally I like anonymous, I really do not want to have to create an id for each and every blog I comment on.
November 22, 2007 1:15 PM
anonymity + audience = asshole
November 22, 2007 7:26 PM
" Similarly, a forthcoming study by Kristin Byron found that people tend to interpret emails more negatively than other forms of communication"
Definately the case. There is hardly, in a lot of circumstances, an accurate tone of voice conveyed via text. For me, being on the phone limits visual contact and sensing the person's emotions. I can only hear the tone of their voice. Going online limits even that.
It's definately a topic that interests me. I've learnt to attempt the benefit of the doubt, but it's still difficult. Abusive people are common. It goes to show how aggressive people expect others to be online, that it's the norm to be that way yourself.
Ill also note that almost anything said online is at least partly ambiguous and it's extremely difficult even to conciously make every effort to abolish that. Believe me, I've tried with several alternate explanations and other methods, especially as I despise confrontation and would prefer decent conversation.
November 24, 2007 5:00 AM
Somewhat OT but related are comments by trolls that aren't flames but can be just as disruptive. Some trolls are more trollier than others, of course. Often, invective or other noted characteristics are not present as the markers which would allow one to assign trollhood to a comment.
For example, take the well-known case of the "concern troll," one who frames a critical or disruptive comment in expressions of "concern" for some supposed disastrous outcome that would result from embracing the thing or idea to which the troll is opposed. Normally, these don't contain invective, rather just a false premise or three plus a couple of straw men.
The employment of disparaging comments framed as satire or humor, or the use of sophistry in advocacy or rebuttal, provide further examples of trolls not necessarily incorporating invective, but which can be more effectively disruptive than an invective-laced flame.
Sam Thornton
November 25, 2007 1:37 AM
The internet has shown me a different way of being rude and ignorant. I stop this by asking the person if they would talk to me like that if I was standing there, it works. Maybe what we need in this new age of technology is a Ms. Manners class on how to act while on-line
Sandy Stone
November 29, 2007 7:15 AM
So if I Troll you, are you going to delete my Comment?
Igor The Troll
May 19, 2008 4:28 AM
It's a function of the perceived lack of consequences for rudeness, and that perception is aided by the sense of anonymity.
Case in point: the most polite crowds you'll ever see are at a Gun Show. I have never in my life been in such a crowded place where everyone watches where they walk, says "excuse me" if they bump into you, and actually mind their kids.
Bill aka NO DooDahs!
May 19, 2008 12:47 PM
reality sucks, having tried to respond to someone else's post with a list of sugegstions to get the too long to read comment and then the usual verbals about loving D & D and goth ladies
I can sympathise entirely with people who have to moderate, but the biggest cause is seemingly ignorant people typing into forums, comments etc. with no thought whatsoever and having no better argument then I am right cause I said so
May 19, 2008 12:47 PM
This is an issue which I find extremely interesting.
There is no doubt in my mind that a system which allows for complete anonymity encourages behavior which would not be tolerated in most "real world" communities. However I have recently begun to think that this phenomenon could be merely the bleeding edge of a wider social trend.
Over the past 150 years or so we have increasingly become independent of community in relation to our survival. While now we still remain dependent on others we need only interact with others at our whim. When community was needed to live social skills had to be developed. People had to be respected even if you disagreed with them. Your life could depend on it.
Now there seems to be a sort of tribalism that has developed. Different people adhering to specific ideologies (or lack thereof) band together and have little to no respect for those with differing opinions. "Why should we have respect? We don't need
May 19, 2008 12:56 PM
How do you only read 826 comments in a week?
A single troll can read and post triple that amount.
How can you ever keep up?
May 19, 2008 1:21 PM
John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory:
Normal Person + Audience + Anonymity = Fuckwad.
As made famous in a Penny Arcade strip.
For better or for worse, the anonymous nature of the internet allows free speech to truly be heard.
May 19, 2008 2:38 PM
I think
of the frequency of misinterpreted messages arises from lack of practice on the part of senders. Initially one doesn't realize that sarcasm, ribbing, mocking and similar speech games do not work when there is no "tone of voice" helping to convey the intent of a comment intended to be funny.
May 19, 2008 3:12 PM
There is a great story and visual haiku on this very topic over at
Haiku for You
May 19, 2008 4:35 PM
I like you.
May 19, 2008 8:28 PM
The House Rules said you may 'edit' comments. Edit? Really? I agree that anonymity gives way to vulgerness, but you should let people have their say. Comments are the echo-chamber for you're articles; you're going to hear exactly how you sound in the minds of everyone else. What about a thumbs up/down system like most websites? That way the negative comments will become invisible automatically... just an idea. Free speech!
May 19, 2008 8:37 PM
If i or anyone online says something about " im going to kill your mom " over the internet... noone is going to take that serious because u dont know who i am. i dont know who u are. Anonymous communication makes it so i dont care if i hurt someones feelings.
May 20, 2008 12:37 AM
Shit, negro, you done jawed off and now you'll have to face my sawed off.
You jacked-up wannabe thugs ain't seen no wrath yet.
-Ibod Catooga
May 20, 2008 7:11 AM
Did most everyone forget that a great deal of the internet goons that are out there tend to have been the geeks and throwbacks in high school that had their own lunch table set aside for Magic tournaments? Don't get me wrong, I agree with this article, but sometimes the simplest, most obvious answer is the correct one.
An overwhelming percentage of the goons I've met in person, be they male or female, tends to have moderate to severe social problems, extreme self-worth/self-image issues. The ones I've become friends with eventually open up to say that they're lonely, confused, directionless people that could really use a shoulder once in a while. There are, of course, always exceptions to the rule (i'm sure about ten people are reading this now hoping they're not kidding themselves when they put themselves in the 'exception' category), but those exceptions are especially glaring.
I'm guilty of trolling/flaming in several instances, but those are in social arenas like fandoms and other random subcultures. In the case of things like scientific or political debate, I would HOPE that the schoolyard jeerings of one geek screaming 'FAG!' at another would stop, but it doesn't.
Honestly, this article can be looked at through typical pack behaviour inherent in humans. The louder you are, the more you thrash around, the more you make incoherent ape-noises at an opponent, the more attention (and sometimes admiration) you get. To people who grew up being outcasts that were shoved in lockers and trashcans on a regular basis, that kind of admiration, however false, is like being on a 24/7 heroin drip that never runs dry.
Olo Hooro
June 12, 2008 2:08 PM
I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say everyone is right!
. . . but what 'everyone' really wants to know is - what happened to the missing comments between Nov '07 and May of '08?
August 11, 2008 7:53 PM
I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say everyone is right!
Well done:)
gazduire web
Gazduire Web
September 04, 2008 2:44 PM
I came here thinking it was an article on professional Trollers/flames. But it was still interesting.
The internet has long since been a problem to the global elite. Due to it's ability to facilitate freedom of speech hence mass appeal to rational thinking.
Any influential group can just study the psycology behind the trolling and flaming and train professionals to turn the signal into noise on topics they need to play down. Or turn noise to signal on topics that are in it's interest.
Since the internet creates a natrural abundance of trollers/flamers, it would be pretty damn easy to hide. PR from the shadows.
September 07, 2008 12:11 PM
There is an additional phenomenon going on here which you may not know about. I have observed this in online games and chat rooms visited by young people, mostly American but I'm sure British also.
The phenomenon is this:
I have noticed on multiple occasions that certain young people in these situations act in a most obnoxious, offensive, churlish manner. This is done far out of proportion to what is going on, and with total disregard to others' feelings. And the common denominator? Since I study online communications, I engage these persons in conversation and ask them about their behavior. In many cases, these young people, both males and females, turn out to be fundamentalist Christians -- born-agains, evangelicals, whatever term you choose. And they say two things. Firstly, they see no harm in what they do, because anything that happens online "isn't real". Secondly, when I press them about their language and crudeness, they tell me it's ok because they "are saved", i.e., they're forgiven, washed in the blood, etc.
I had assumed these obnoxious youths would be goth, atheist, disillusioned, outcasts, etc. Shows my prejudices. Although there are some goth types that do this sort of thing, overwhelmingly they are mundane Christian types who have no conscience about their behavior... because it's online, it isn't real and so it doesn't count.
Perhaps this is just another facet of your explanation. Or perhaps the Internet has become a release valve for young people like this who live in very uptight, controlled, and repressed environments.
Also many times these kids live in rural America. Perhaps an element of dislike of "outsiders" is also at play, allowing outrageous behavior: intolerance, disdain, casual hatred, torture, lynching. A reflection of reality? These reactions to "other" are present and often tolerated or encouraged in their parent culture.
This all reminds me of studies that online game companies have done of the Player-killers who wreak havoc on the fun of others in their games. (A player-killer, or PK, is a human player in the game who ambushes weaker players, kills them, then takes all their treasure -- a very rude thing to do, especially to obviously weak newbies). Overwhelmingly these anonymous online sociopaths turn out, in real life, to be lawyers.
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text:
Honest and Decent Humans Should Oppose This Pope
September 30, 2010
For the past couple of months, a number of prominent secularists – including Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Sam Harris – have lead public protests of Pope Benedict XVI, even exploring the possibility of his arrest, for his involvement in the cover-up of sexual abuse. I have, for the most part, considered their campaign a distraction from more important issues, and more divisive than not.
No longer. I have changed my mind. That the public sees these protests as unimportant or divisive is not necessarily a problem with the protesters. Rather, it is a problem of lack of general appreciation of just how damning the evidence is for the claim that the Pope has acted immorally and illegally.
There are three main reasons for this change of mind on my part. The first is a deeper and fuller consideration of what the Pope has said and done. There is ever-mounting, yet already crystal clear, evidence that the Pope played a role in covering up sexual abuse of young boys within the Catholic Church. Initially I thought, "well, sexual abuse happens elsewhere." Well, maybe. But rarely is its cover-up so systematic and calculated. Johann Hari has written one of the better recent commentaries on this situation. In his essay, he outlines a few cases where we know the Pope was directly involved. Here is an extensive quote:
"In Germany in the early 1980s, Father Peter Hullermann was moved to a diocese run by Ratzinger. He had already been accused of raping three boys. Ratzinger didn't go to the police, instead Hullermann was referred for 'counseling.' The psychiatrist who saw him, Werner Huth, told the Church unequivocally that he was 'untreatable [and] must never be allowed to work with children again.' Yet he kept being moved from parish to parish, even after a sex crime conviction in 1986. He was last accused of sexual abuse in 1998.
In the U.S. in 1985, a group of American bishops wrote to Ratzinger begging him to defrock a priest called Father Stephen Kiesle, who had tied up and molested two young boys in a rectory. Ratzinger refused for years, explaining that he was thinking of the 'good of the universal Church' and of the 'detriment that granting the dispensation can provoke among the community of Christ's faithful, particularly considering the young age of the priest involved. He was 38. He went on to rape many more children. Think about what Ratzinger's statement reveals. Ratzinger thinks the 'good of the universal Church' – your church – lies not in protecting your children from being raped, but in protecting the rapists from punishment.
In 1996, the Archbishop of Milwaukee appealed to Ratzinger to defrock Father Lawrence C. Murphy, who had raped and tortured up to 200 deaf and mute children at a Catholic boarding school. His rapes often began in the confessional. Ratzinger never replied. Eight months later, there was a secret canonical 'trial' – but Murphy wrote to Ratzinger saying he was ill, so it was cancelled. Ratzinger advised him to take a 'spiritual retreat.' He died years later, unpunished."
These episodes should disgust you. It should further disgust you that these are but a few examples. It should absolutely enrage you that the Pope and his "administration," who knowingly covered up sexual abuse, have blamed everyone but themselves (to name a few supposed culprits: secularism , homosexuality , and The New York Times ). And it should confound you that the Vatican does not respect the law and justice , as evidenced by their keeping the entire process in-house, evading investigators at all turns.
But the outrage does not end with the actions taken in the sexual abuse cover-up. Consider the Pope's public statements and positions on an array of topics.
There's his position not just that condom use is immoral, but that it actually make AIDS worse . Or, take his statements that gay marriage is an "insidious and dangerous" threat, or the Vatican's position that homosexuality ought not be decriminalized . Or, recall the case of the nine-year-old girl who was pregnant with twins after being raped by her stepfather. Doctors predicted that she would die during childbirth, so they performed an abortion. Brazil's Catholic Church excommunicated the girl's mother and the doctors – but not the stepfather. The Vatican supported the decision.
The Pope has also stated that atheism has led to "the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice" and has blamed atheists for the destruction of the environment . During his recent tour of Britain, he continued this line of thought, both warning against secularism, calling it a "dictatorship of relativism" (that's obviously false, but one must wonder if a dictatorship of the Pope's sort of morality would be better); and claiming Nazism was a result of atheism (full transcript here ). Richard Dawkins has handled this well, and P.Z. Myers has done us all a service by posting a list of Hitler quotes that show the Nazi leader was anything but an atheist. Again, these are just a few bits of information. If you can stomach it, I urge you to use Google to search for more.
Now consider, as the second reason for changing my mind, that the Pope is not just any ordinary man. He is the religious and spiritual leader, and more importantly public representative, of one billion people on this Earth. He is the face and voice of Catholicism. The combination of his powerful role and the aforementioned evidence makes the entire situation even more disturbing. Thus, it is extremely important to have critical public discussion about his actions and views, more than any other Catholic we can think of. This is similar to the reasoning I have used in an article about Glenn Beck and his arguments.
The third reason for my change of mind is that many people still have not come around to the above facts – especially Catholics, who in America still support the Pope at relatively high levels. I know many Catholics, and when pushed, they do not support any of the above – from sexual abuse cover-up, to backwards policy on condoms and gays, to the painting of non-Catholics as immoral and evil. It would seem, then, that the challenge for those who already agree with the arguments above is to help the one billion Catholics in the world realize that the Pope, currently a revered public figure, is in fact an appalling excuse for their public leader. The combination of the evidence mentioned and the Pope's powerful role is enough to to cause concern among secularists. But it should be even more reason for Catholics to care. Of course, the Pope is not the only person responsible for immorality or corruption within the Catholic Church. But he was directly involved in much of the recent immorality and corruption. Catholics should care because, at bottom, the man and those he is protecting should face both social and legal scrutiny for their actions.
Perhaps this is why it is so confusing and maddening to find people, including Catholics, who are apathetic to the situation. It is not just that they have sidestepped the facts; they seem not to understand what the facts say about Catholicism and its public image. Say what you will about Dawkins and Hitchens, and the approach they've taken, but the fact that many atheists criticize their method as unnecessarily aggressive – even if wrong – means they care about the public face of atheism. One ought to expect the same care from Catholics about their religious tradition.
Some Catholics have told me that protesting the Pope is but a waste of time, for the Pope will not step down. Probably not. Yet he is 83, and is likely to die soon. Catholic voices can influence the next pick. More importantly, opposition sends a general message that you do not stand with corruption and lies, but with decency, honesty, and humanity. Consider, for example, the following statement by Barbara Blaine (transcribed here by Ophelia Benson) at recent protests during the Pope's visit to Britain. Blaine is a survivor of priestly sexual abuse:
"When we were children, and the priests were raping us, and sodomizing us, and sexually abusing us, we thought we were all alone – and we felt very alone, guilty, and ashamed. And over these past years, and even more recently over these past months, many of us as victims have found each other, and we have learned that we're not alone. And I must tell each and every one of you: thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for all the victims, because today we recognize that you too care about the victims."
Opposing the protests of the Pope is not about defending Catholicism from anti-Catholic attacks, as the Vatican and other Catholics have framed the debate. It is about defending Catholicism from ruin from within its own ranks. More importantly, it is about standing up for basic human goodness regardless of one's ideological allegiance. There is no dogma requiring Catholics to follow their Pope to all ends. Theologians often state in debates with philosophers that God would not demand people to do immoral acts. Why does this rule not apply now?
This is not a situation where the facts are unclear and one can shrug his or her shoulders and say "I don't know where I stand." The mountain of evidence does not look different from different angles. It looks enormous and hideous from all angles. You need only look to admit that. Caring – and opposition – should follow naturally.
Note: this essay was originally published on the blog Rationally Speaking .
#1 Tea (Guest) on Thursday September 30, 2010 at 3:02pm
Good for you, Michael!
#2 uzza on Thursday September 30, 2010 at 9:41pm
Wow, great roundup. I thought I was pretty well up on all this, but there's stuff here I didn't even know about.
#3 liberalartist on Friday October 01, 2010 at 11:59am
My mother, a dedicated Catholic, believes that the church will change of its own accord, so she remains silent in the face of all these atrocities. I think she is typical. I don't believe it will change. She grew up during Vatican II and thinks that will happen again. I am skeptical, many of those changes have already been scaled back. The Vatican is an authoritarian organization which is entrenched in holding on to its own power. It is also losing moderates and what remains is ever-increasing conservatism. And it will cling to that conservative ideology as a life-preserver in a sea of secularization.
#4 Jim, Religion is Bullshit on Friday October 01, 2010 at 12:45pm
Great article. The pope and all connected with all of these crimes should stand trial.
#5 Ben Finney (Guest) on Saturday October 02, 2010 at 1:01am
Yes! This is how it's done.
Change your mind for specific, well-supported reasons.
If you choose to tell others, be prepared to show what the specific, well-supported reasons for your new position are, to ensure that the support is independently verifiable; and especially to show how your new position is *better* supported by the evidence.
Congratulations, Michael, and thank you very much for showing us your work.
#6 Deen (Guest) on Saturday October 02, 2010 at 3:19am
Powerful article. You'll make a great angry atheist yet . Nice too see someone publicly change their mind. It also shows that speaking up is not futile.
Now it's up to the Catholics. Will they continue to fund their church and their pope? Or will they demand the guilty church leaders be brought to justice? Or at the very very least demand a radical change of policy? So far I've not been too impressed with the Catholic response.
#7 drollere on Saturday October 02, 2010 at 9:34am
the key issue here is that legal action provides legal authority to obtain internal church communications and to depose church leaders under oath to god.
the canard that the vatican represents a "state" and therefore enjoys "state" privileges and immunities is worth negating legally as well.
finally—society proceeds primarily by imitation of behavior. protests create the precedent for protests, the example of protests, and the justification of protests. atheists need to stand up and be heard, forcefully and clearly.
it's the only way to turn back the rising tide of religious propaganda, deception and cynicism, and put this superstition down like a rapid dog.
#8 Ophelia Benson on Saturday October 02, 2010 at 10:42am
I take it you removed my comment, Michael? All I said was that I see you've been reading Butterflies and Wheels. That's because most of your links are there, and I know you read it sometimes, so I think you probably did get some of your current views on this issue from B&W.
I'm pretty sure you got that quotation from Barbara Blaine from there, because your link is to YouTube, not something written. I transcribed that quotation and posted it at B&W. It would have been polite at least to credit me.
(I say this because you're irritated by things I've written lately about John Shook's Huffington Post article among others. I think you shouldn't let that irritation prompt you to help yourself to a huge amount of links and even a transcription without a hat tip or any other acknowledgement.)
#9 Michael De Dora (Guest) on Saturday October 02, 2010 at 11:45am
No, I did not remove your comment. Bloggers here don't have that sort of power. Are you thinking about the comment you left over on Rationally Speaking?
Yes, I got the Blaine link and comment from your site. That is the only thing I pulled from B&W. Apologies for for not crediting your efforts to transcribe her remark, and thank you for doing so.
#10 Ophelia Benson on Saturday October 02, 2010 at 4:54pm
Michael - oh, sorry, that must be what I was thinking of. I'd forgotten that this first appeared there *and* that it was there that I'd commented. I do apologize. Thanks for the ack.
If you haven't actually watched and listened to Barbara Blaine, I recommend it - it's very powerful.
#11 steve oberski (Guest) on Sunday October 03, 2010 at 6:35am
I've been critical of you in earlier columns so let me say good for you, not for agreeing with my viewpoint, but for being willing to publicly change your stance in the face of new evidence.
#12 HappyHeretic (Guest) on Tuesday October 05, 2010 at 11:10am
A beautiful article, especially with all the relevant links pointing at the foibles of this man and his institution.
#13 Xenia (Guest) on Thursday October 07, 2010 at 1:36am
Yes, a very powerful article indeed.
What is even more horrible is that he did not become pope in spite of his views and actions and all his blatant absence of action ... he became pope BECAUSE of it. Putting the Church first, regardless how many innocent kids may suffer and die proves them that you are obviously made of the right stuff to become a pope.


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All Basketball - Girls StoriesIn the second to last game of the season the Allen Park girls' basketball team dominated from start to finish en route to a 54-37 victory over host Annapolis. An 8-0 run to start the game set the tone for the rest of the contest and despite a few pushes from the Cougars, the Jags had an easy time on the road. Scoring from four different players helped Allen Park to a 13-3 lead after the first quarter. Annapolis did not score until over halfway into the quarter and a 3-point field goal was the only points of the quarter. Allen Park's Arielle Gamble helped to keep the Cougars at bay early on. She entered the game with two minutes left in the first quarter and got right to work doing what she does best, grabbing five rebounds in two minutes. The Jags continued to pull away in the second and got help at the charity stripe when the team combined for a 4-for-6 quarter. They edged the hosts 9-8 in the quarter for a 22-11 halftime lead. At the halftime break, Annapolis Coach Lynn Ward talked to his team about getting their shots off and putting more pressure on the visitors. The talked worked and the Cougar offense started to show up in the second half, keeping right on the heels of the Jaguars. "We talked about pressuring the ball; that we were gonna go man on them and we did," Ward said. "We also talked about when you're open, you've gotta shoot the ball. "In the first half, we're passing those shots because we lost our confidence. That was my point at halftime." The Cougars' shots started making their marks more in the fourth quarter, when they matched the Jags point for point with 13 each. Dawnelle Dixon hit an early three to make it a 10-point game (37-27). With 4:52 left to play the Cougars were only down by seven but Allen Park got right back to work, pushing ahead for the win. Allen Park Coach Chuck Perez was pleased with the win but said his team did have some mishaps on the defensive side of things. "I wasn't too happy as far as some of the defensive play that we had," he said. "I think we let too many points up in this game. "But we made some adjustments; they responded to that so the coaches were pretty happy." Perez said his team was just looking to tighten things up offensively and work on being more patient as they prepare for districts next week and Perez saw positive moments on the floor. "Just them playing together on the court," Perez said about his team's strengths on Wednesday. "Being more in control of what they need to do more or less (and) coaching themselves. "By this time of the year they should know what they're gonna do." Casey Bowdell shined for the Jags all night and led all scorers with a double-double of 18 points and 10 rebounds. Aly Kubik and Hailey Lazarek had eight points each and Erin Fish finished with six. Gamble finished the night with seven rebounds. Dixon dominated for the Cougars, finishing with 13 points including three triples and also brought down seven boards. Kirstyn Jacobs had eight points and five boards and Brianna Coffman and Fleenary had four points each. Ward was pleased with the play from Jacobs off the bench as well as Coffman. Despite the loss, he was not disappointed in the effort. "We didn't get outworked, we got outplayed," he said. "I know they're a tough team and I wanted to play them as hard as we could and get ready for what we have on Saturday. "I was happy with the way we played. Could some of them have played better? Yeah. But I can't knock the effort. The effort was there all night; we just couldn't get over the edge." Each team will wrap up its season this week before districts start on Monday. Annapolis will take on non-league Riverview before facing a big Crestwood team on Saturday. Allen Park will wrap up its season tomorrow with a league makeup game against Kennedy.
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> > I didn't start this thread with polishing datasets in mind. > Exactly. You started the thread to brag about quantity. I suggest that if you're claiming to talk about real data, quantity and quality are inextricable.Received on Thursday, 7 April 2011 01:30:40 UTC
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Wednesday, 7 January 2015 15:16:13 UTC


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Brethertons Solicitors' photo competition has got off to a flying start with keen photographers sending in snaps of their favourite spots in the town.
The entry pictured above was taken by David Judd and shows cars on the M1 near Rugby at dusk. Competition prizes include an iPad, £100 Love2Shop vouchers and a bottle of vintage champagne. The winners will have their work displayed on the walls of Brethertons' new office when it moves to Clifton Road later this year.
The competition is open to everyone regardless of their background in photography. Categories include Buildings, Agriculture, People and Sport. Submitted entries will feature on Brethertons' Facebook and Instagram pages. Richard Pell, Brethertons senior partner, said: "I just know there will be lots of great shots that represent the vibrant town we're based in and the people who live in it."
To enter the competition, email email@example.com


text:
Concrete Blonde - I Dont Need a Hero LyricsAlbum: Bloodletting
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Printer-friendy version of these lyrics
You always said I was a liar
But we burn like a house on fire...
No matter what, you know that to be true.
And everything you gave to me
Changed everything I used to be
Much more than anyone I ever knew
And I don't need a hero
I don't need a soldier
I did when I was younger -
But now that I'm older
I don't need a father,
I don't wanna be your mother
It's just that anyone of us is half
Without another one is you
The colors of that piece of time
Are still so fresh inside my mind
And it makes the movie
Of my life seem pale -
And all the games I have to play
I got to give a lot of me away
But the part with us
Will never be for sale
The words of love have been confused
The ways of love have been abused -
Is this a lottery you win or lose?
I don't know -
It's an endless circle over time
The place inside where I hold and find
Your sweet and happy music in my soul
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text:
On 29/09/2011 14:22, J.Fine wrote: > Hi > > I'm looking for a fairly comprehensive collection of MathML examples, so that visually disabled students can test the ouputs of MathML to speech translation. > > Does anyone know of such a collection, or should I create my own? > > Best regards > > > Jonathan > http://www.w3.org/Math/testsuite/build/main/overview.html is perhaps the obvious place to start. Of if you want more realistic examples in context, any pages out of http://dlmf.nist.gov/ David -- google plus: https:/profiles.google.com/d.p.carlisle ________________________________________________________________________ The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 1249803. The registered office is: Wilkinson House, Jordan Hill Road, Oxford OX2 8DR, United Kingdom. This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The service is powered by MessageLabs. ________________________________________________________________________Received on Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:44:54 UTC
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 6 January 2015 21:27:44 UTC


text:
tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.comments2010-06-14T14:02:12.807-04:00Raw for ChangeBeahttp://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-68670315796125341772010-06-14T14:02:12.801-04:002010-06-14T14:02:12.801-04:00if you want more energizing and hydrating drink y...if you want more energizing and hydrating drink you may add chia seeds on your smoothie.

Hidalgo foods. have a list of different menus of smoothieaHziEhttps://email@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-61725456683897844142009-02-16T15:32:00.000-05:002009-02-16T15:32:00.000-05:00I'm a real lover of Thai food too, so I perked up ...I'm a real lover of Thai food too, so I perked up right away when I saw the combination of spices you used in your sauce! Yum.earthmotherhttps://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-48972811043716156272009-02-15T10:19:00.000-05:002009-02-15T10:19:00.000-05:00Another fantastic post! I love you!The raw/living...Another fantastic post! I love you!

The raw/living food Tex-Mex is outstanding. I would choose a raw taco over Taco Bell any day, especially dressed with raw salsa.Brenthttps://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-86623508490679681372009-02-14T22:03:00.000-05:002009-02-14T22:03:00.000-05:00Wow, Eva (that's my mom's name too)! I'm so happy ...Wow, Eva (that's my mom's name too)! I'm so happy you feel the same way. It's so hard to bite our tongues isn't it?! As the word keeps spreading, the easier it will become because people will realize we're not crazy! We'll just be one step ahead until then ;) Thanks for reading and keep in touch.Beahttps://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-20318822021486599152009-02-14T20:07:00.000-05:002009-02-14T20:07:00.000-05:00Bea,great blog! I saw you changed to raw foods rec...Bea,
great blog! I saw you changed to raw foods recently, just like me. Isn't it an amazing journey of awakening? And don't you just feel like grabbing all your loved ones and shaking them, preaching about raw food? (while biting your tongue and just saying nothing)
It's so great to see people getting into it and being so successful and happy with it. Fantastic!
Looking forward to reading more about you :-)

Best wishes from New Zealand
Evahearmerawhttp://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-9135047852591881842009-02-12T23:30:00.000-05:002009-02-12T23:30:00.000-05:00Just found out about another similar movie I can't...Just found out about another similar movie I can't wait to watch, check it out here: EarthlingsBeahttps://email@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-16698417545833475562009-02-12T22:33:00.000-05:002009-02-12T22:33:00.000-05:00Wow agusa99! That makes my day! You're welcome. I'...Wow agusa99! That makes my day! You're welcome. I'm super happy that you liked it so much. Let me know what combos you enjoy as you experiment.Beahttps://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-21627301912511674192009-02-12T22:31:00.000-05:002009-02-12T22:31:00.000-05:00That's awesome agusa99! Making that declaration is...That's awesome agusa99! Making that declaration is liberating isn't it? Looks like you've got a great plan too! Best of luck. Keep me posted and let me know if I can help with anything :) I know how determined you are once you set your mind to something, so I can't wait to see how you'll accomplish these goals.Beahttps://email@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-60783595147408814862009-02-12T15:16:00.000-05:002009-02-12T15:16:00.000-05:00My goal is to look and feel great! I want my nutri...My goal is to look and feel great! I want my nutrition goals to catch up with my fitness achievements and goals. I'm going to do the 7 Day Detox to start. After wards my goal is to change my diet to become 50% raw. My first goal towards this goal is to change my breakfast and lunch to be 100% raw. Then who knows...agusa99https://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-78076460794725951552009-02-12T15:02:00.000-05:002009-02-12T15:02:00.000-05:00I just made the smoothie from your video (sans the...I just made the smoothie from your video (sans the dandelion b/c I haven't found a place in J-Ville to buy some yet so I added extra Kale) and it was delicious!! I was surprised that I liked it so much. I tried a green smoothie once before and it wasn't very good so I was hesitant to try again but now I'm so glad I did. I can't wait to try another! Thank you Bea!agusa99https://email@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-24333292714146178172009-02-10T20:24:00.000-05:002009-02-10T20:24:00.000-05:00Thanks Loulou! We all live in a beautiful place, i...Thanks Loulou! We all live in a beautiful place, it's just seeing it that everyone doesn't always take the time to do :)Beahttps://email@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-51068038393038869682009-02-10T11:02:00.000-05:002009-02-10T11:02:00.000-05:00Beautifu photos Bea, you live in a wonderful area!...Beautifu photos Bea, you live in a wonderful area!! Enjoy!!
:0)Loulouhttps://email@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-10848619019834635732009-02-10T07:44:00.000-05:002009-02-10T07:44:00.000-05:00I'm glad you enjoyed these tips lksistersveg. Cong...I'm glad you enjoyed these tips lksistersveg. Congrats on incorporating more raw foods into your diet. My recommendation would be to spread out a few raw meals throughout the week instead of just one all raw day. It could be throwing your body off balance and making you hungrier. A raw diet is actually rich in healthy carbs. You could track your meals on fitday.com or nutridiary for a week to see how much carbs your getting and try to incorporate higher carb foods. Here's some info on why fruits are best for this: rawfoodexplained.comBeahttps://email@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-64715347111122134172009-02-10T07:35:00.000-05:002009-02-10T07:35:00.000-05:00Thanks Lenette. I guess the universe was calling u...Thanks Lenette. I guess the universe was calling us to share our love of raw :) Your blog is great by the way!Beahttps://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-25443947793405127382009-02-10T07:32:00.000-05:002009-02-10T07:32:00.000-05:00I love persimmons Amber! They are a great substitu...I love persimmons Amber! They are a great substitute for my banana mash, and they're terrific in green smoothies. I love how you experiment when you are shopping. That's a great tip for readers. Thanks!Beahttps://email@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-86830881746771855602009-02-09T22:49:00.000-05:002009-02-09T22:49:00.000-05:00Great tips, this is really helpful. My sister and ...Great tips, this is really helpful.
My sister and I are trying to do one day a week all raw - but this is challenging without any carb-items. What do you suggest? Also, it feels sometimes like I'm starving myself, even if it is rejuvenating at the same time to eat raw. Any tips/suggestions? Thanks for the inspiration!lksistersveghttp://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-28874665723293216222009-02-09T18:12:00.000-05:002009-02-09T18:12:00.000-05:00Awesome Bea! How funny--I just posted about how t...Awesome Bea! How funny--I just posted about how to go raw on my blog (gorawhavefun.com) a few days ago too! We must have felt the same pull towards helping others ;)
~LenetteLenettehttps://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-13703220528893605152009-02-09T16:56:00.000-05:002009-02-09T16:56:00.000-05:00I love trying things I've never had before even mo...I love trying things I've never had before even more so if I have no idea what it is. Once in college I went through an exotic fruit phase. The Walmart near my house had an impressive exotic fruit section especially for a small town like St. Augustine. The fruit there always peaked my interest until one day I decided I would tried something new every time I went. I often had to look the fruit up when I got home to figure out how to eat it, what to expect, etc. One fruit that stuck in my mind was the Persimmon. It's from Japan and looks like an orange tomato but tastes completely different. It was sweet and slightly tangy with a soft texture. It was good! I used to look forward to the experiment every time I shopped. I never new what I was getting myself into and I discovered some really great (and not so great) fruits that I otherwise would never have had an opportunity to try.agusa99https://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-70770460073545963582009-02-08T10:32:00.000-05:002009-02-08T10:32:00.000-05:00Thanks Darice. I'll be posting recipes like that, ...Thanks Darice. I'll be posting recipes like that, don't worry. And thanks for mentioning the benefits, they are important. Before I get to those, I'm working on cutting the lecture video and posting those segments--so watch out. I've been reading Dr. Sommers's book and it's terrific. The videos will touch on the key points of his book.Beahttps://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-71747244345862474502009-02-08T09:39:00.000-05:002009-02-08T09:39:00.000-05:00I love your blog girl! You are so inspiring! Can...I love your blog girl! You are so inspiring! Can you post some simple and quick recipes? Do you have recipes that don't require a lot of "unique" ingredients for those of us that can't make it to the speciality store as frequently as we'd like to? Also, another fun idea would be if you can post the benefits of the different foods used in the recipes. THANK YOU for this blog! I love it!Darice Michellehttps://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-53531860302898690742009-02-08T09:17:00.000-05:002009-02-08T09:17:00.000-05:00Thanks Tami! I'm so glad I am able to share my exp...Thanks Tami! I'm so glad I am able to share my experiences in such a positive way.Beahttps://email@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-66518925585724001822009-02-07T22:08:00.000-05:002009-02-07T22:08:00.000-05:00Thanks Michele! Comments like that truly make my d...Thanks Michele! Comments like that truly make my day :) Congrats on your accomplishments! That's terrific! No, I don't miss oatmeal at all, this "substitute" tastes great and feels even better. Plus, it's room temperature if you let it sit so the goji berries plump up so it's not cold like some raw foods that may leave you wanting something warm.Beahttps://firstname.lastname@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-10544803102519021132009-02-07T21:32:00.000-05:002009-02-07T21:32:00.000-05:00Wow, that sounds--and looks--so delicious! I'm not...Wow, that sounds--and looks--so delicious! I'm not 100% raw food but I have gone periods of time on raw foods only. I'm a vegetarian now and I've lost over 100 pounds, though.

Do you miss real oatmeal at all? I love steel cut oats--not the processed packages most people eat.

It's my first time here and I love your blog!

*smiles*
MicheleMichelehttps://email@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-55647022146968316422009-02-07T10:44:00.000-05:002009-02-07T10:44:00.000-05:00Keep up the great work on this blog -- I LOVE your...Keep up the great work on this blog -- I LOVE your posts, and will be sending so many friends here that are just starting out on a raw food diet or even thinking about it as you can put things into perspective really well.Tami of BrooksGrothhttps://email@example.com:blogger.com,1999:blog-2684840626058602319.post-83835360747193282472009-02-05T19:55:00.000-05:002009-02-05T19:55:00.000-05:00Thank you! It's certainly easy to lose weight eati...Thank you! It's certainly easy to lose weight eating raw, but you don't have too. You can even gain weight with raw foods. There are plenty of foods high in healthy fats, just be careful not to overdo it. Nuts, seeds, avocado, coconut, oils are a few to make sure to have in your diet.Beahttps://email@example.com


text:
Verapamil and left atrial appendage ligation prevent atrial fibrillation induced by acetylcholine injection to subadventitia layer of pulmonary veins in dogs
Search Medline for
|February 8, 2007
Firstly, the purpose of this study was to determine whether the injection of acetylcholine (Ach) to subadventitia layer of pulmonary veins (PVs) could initiate atrial fibrillation (AF). When the first purpose could be successful, the second purpose was to compare effects of Ca++ blocker verapamil, beta-blocker landiolol and the ligation of the left atrium (LA) appendage in preventing AF. Twelve beagle dogs were anesthetized by thyamilal and alpha-chloralose and were ventilated with room air. The heart was in a pericardial cradle. Surface ECG and electrograms on PVs and LA appendage were recorded. In addition, activation time mapping with 64 electrodes on the LA appnedage was performed and effective refractory periods (ERP) on PVs were measured. Ach injection (100-500 micrograms/kg) or subsequent electrical stimulation (4 mA, 2 msec in width) to PVs could reproducibly induce AF. In a preliminary study, pre-injection of M2 blocker atropine, which was injected to the same site as Ach injection, prevented AF after the subsequent Ach injection in all dogs tested. In this study, pre-injection of verapamil prevented AF initiation after the subsequent Ach in 3 of the 4 dogs. In contrast, pre-injection of landiolol had no effects on AF prevention in all 4 dogs. The ligation of LA appendage root ceased AF during AF initiated by Ach, and prevented AF initiation after the subsequent Ach injection in all 4dogs. After Ach injection, activation mapping on the LA appendage showed more homogeneous conduction after the ligation than that before the ligation. ERPs on the PVs after the ligation were markedly prolonged as compared to those before the ligation (p<0.01). Consequently, AF initiated by acetylcholine injection to the subadventitia layer of pulmonary veins, in part, may depend on Ca++ current. LA appendage is suggested to be related to the maintenance of AF, not the initiation.