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Extra Swim Class At City Heights YMCA Becomes Gender, Immigrant Issue
Monday, July 9, 2012
Aired 7/9/12 on KPBS Midday Edition.
Megan Burks, Editor, Speak City Heights
Dr. Adina Batnitzky Assistant Professor Sociology at the University of San Diego
California Western Assistant Visiting Professor Andrea Freeman
Statement from the Copley Family YMCA
"At the Y, we recognize that for communities to succeed, everyone must be given the opportunity to be healthy, confident, connected and secure. This swim program at our Y does just that. It fulfills all three areas of our focus, Healthy Living, Youth Development and Social Responsibility.
The swim program is designed to allow women in our City Heights community to have the opportunity to get in the water with their children, learn to swim and stay active in an environment they find comfortable in. At the Y, we believe it is our social responsibility to give back and support our neighbors.
The program takes place outside of the normal Copley Family YMCA business hours and therefore does not exclude the public because nobody else would be using the facility at the time it takes place.
The Copley Family YMCA has been teaching children and adults to swim for over 50 years. Our lessons are taught by experienced, certified instructors and focus on improving swim strokes, building character values, and having fun in the water. We welcome all and have a wide-range of aquatic programs to suit everyone's needs."
Leticia Leos
Executive Director
Copley Family YMCA
Commenters responded swiftly and often viciously to a story by KPBS media partner Speak City Heights on a women-only swim class for Muslims at the Copley YMCA in City Heights.
Many decried the YMCA for discrimination because men weren't allowed in the class. But Megan Burks, the author of the story, told KPBS Midday Edition the classes were held after hours, when the YMCA wouldn't normally have been open.
"So they're not kicking out members who would have been there already," she said.
Burks said the YMCA does get public money, but that the funds "typically go to youth services and childcare services, so it's not really for the operation of the recreation."
California Western assistant visiting professor Andrea Freeman explained that not allowing someone to attend a class is not discrimination in a legal sense.
When asked under what circumstances a class like this would violate antidiscrimination laws, Freeman replied, "there aren't any."
Adina Batnitzky, an assistant professor of sociology at the University of San Diego, said the debate over discrimination "gets away from the important issue."
"Yes this is an issue of inclusion and diversity, but it's also an issue of public health," she said. "We want to get these women moving."
Batnitzky said Islam has doctrines about modesty that apply to both men and women, which is what keeps the women from participating in a co-ed swim class. She added that because many of the women are East African, they are at higher risk for hypertension and diabetes.
But, she said, a community effort to exercise can counteract that risk.
"We know that communities that come together, particularly ethnic minority communities, it can either have a negative effect, reinforcing bad behavior, or in this context, I applaud these women for taking their health into their own hands and working out," she said.
Batnitzky said she thinks the response to the story was so harsh "because they're Muslim women."
"We talk the talk in terms of embracing diversity, but when it comes to actually practicing diversity, we don't actually do a very good job," she said. "If this had been a Christian women's all-swim hour, we wouldn't have issues."
Commenters also argued the women-only class slowed assimilation for the Muslim women. But Batnitzky disagreed.
"America prides itself in being a country where everybody can feel comfortable," she said. "People don't need to change their religion and culture in order to be an American."
"If anything, it's a wonderful story of these immigrants going to the Young Men Christian Association—is there anything more American than that—and taking their health into their own hands and going to a community center," she added. "They're being wonderful role models for their children, taking care of their own bodies, it's something we should be promoting."
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terrifdint | July 9, 2012 at 12:43 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Is one hour of exercise once a week enough to combat obesity? Are there plans to add more hours in the future?
Also, private parties after hours at the YMCA are expensive. Do some people in the Copley community view this as a free private party?
MissEthel | July 9, 2012 at 8:27 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
I am ecstatic that in my community there is FINALLY an avenue for Muslim women to swim and workout. This is a great start! I recently worked for a large community center that refused to offers these gender specific classes. I can only assume that the backlash played a major part in lack of effort at the request of the community. I am not Muslim, however, have a good relationship with many of the families in my community. The kids' moms were always asking me to start a petition so they could take a Yoga class. Good for you YMCA! Good for us as a community!
LisaB | July 9, 2012 at 8:57 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Thank you for sharing this story. I am not a Muslim woman, but I work with the Somali (Muslim) community in the field of public health. We are busy promoting healthy eating and physical activity as some of the best ways to prevent and manage the chronic diseases, like diabetes and hypertension, that are at epidemic levels for all populations across the nation. It is no good for us to recommend these healthy behaviors if there are not opportunities to do them. I applaud the YMCA for their efforts to help the community and create a wonderful opportunity for women who really need it.
GeneL | July 9, 2012 at 10:47 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
I am amazed that there are people in this community that would deprive a group of women and their children from doing something as simple as swimming for such absurd reasons. Discrimination? Really? Because men won't be allowed in? After hours once a week? And what does it have to do with assimilation? Anyone want to guess how many Italians, Irish, Jewish, or Asian immigrants never assimilated? It's sad that people can't find enough empathy to make some accommodations because of a community's culture and religion. I can't imagine it being disruptive to anyone else's way of life, their ability to earn a living or put food on the table, or their self-esteem. It's just a group of women swimming at the Y for an hour. And the fact that Batnitzky needs to explain the obvious and the Y has to put out a statement that dances around the issue is just as bad. The Y was kind in making these accommodations and should just tell the morons who complain to find something else to whine about. Small-minded people.
Missionaccomplished | July 10, 2012 at 9:29 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
@TERRIFIDENT, excellent point. They also need to change their diet, whether traditional, Americanzied or mixed.
But why should the "community" be involved in this? Your personal health is a personal issue. If putting on gymn clothes is seen as "inmodest" in today's day and age, then that is dark obscurantism.
Missionaccomplished | July 10, 2012 at 9:34 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
"Batnitzky said she thinks the response to the story was so harsh "because they're Muslim women."
"We talk the talk in terms of embracing diversity, but when it comes to actually practicing diversity, we don't actually do a very good job," she said. "If this had been a Christian women's all-swim hour, we wouldn't have issues."
Mmmaybe because after all, it is the YMCA or YWCA? But actually, Professor Batinsky, the people most opposed to this are those who reject the all-encompassing label of "diversity" in theh first place. The rants on the original story bear this out.
Really123 | July 10, 2012 at 10:03 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Although the radio story explained in legal terms what discrimination actually is, and how it does not apply here, (good enough for me), it seemed a bit of a love fest with everyone agreeing with each other and gasping in indignation together at the comments made online.
I expected in the least, that someone with a intelligent mind present an opposing point of view. Someone who represented the posts arguing discrimination. Maureen asking a question here and there was really not fair treatment. Please inform fairly, even if the legal end result is the same, as would have been in this case.
JeanMarc | July 11, 2012 at 9:46 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
I don't think any civilized society should take part in gender oppression in the name of embracing diversity.
CaliforniaDefender | July 11, 2012 at 12:19 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Batnitzky said she thinks the response to the story was so harsh "because they're Muslim women... If this had been a Christian women's all-swim hour, we wouldn't have issues."
I wholeheartedly disagree with Adina Batnitzky and find her comments in this article surprising considering she is a professor at USD.
The reaction was not because they were Muslim women. The reaction was based on the YMCA's segregationist policy. If this had been a Christian women's swim hour, there certainly would have been issues and to state otherwise is very disingenuous.
The opinion that Batnitzky asserts is a myopic and obsolete view of our society, one that contends only minorities can be discriminated against. However, I do agree with her that African Muslim women should be allowed to self-segregate provided that every other religion, race, and gender are given equal opportunity to self-segregate as well.
benz72 | July 11, 2012 at 12:28 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
MA said "But why should the "community" be involved in this? Your personal health is a personal issue. If putting on gymn clothes is seen as "inmodest" in today's day and age, then that is dark obscurantism."
I had understood you to hold quite a different view on the responsibility for health. Have I been mistaken or is there more to your statement that I am missing?
CaliforniaDefender | July 11, 2012 at 12:41 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
I also feel that KPBS skipped over Prof. Andrea Freeman's legal opinion and should have invited her to the interview for a more in-depth exploration of the root of this issue.
Why does the YMCA's policy not violate anti-discrimination laws?
Is the discrimination acceptable simply because it is outside normal business hours as the YMCA stated?
Missionaccomplished | July 11, 2012 at 12:54 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
ILK, right on. I hope unReality123 read it.
BENZ72, by personal health I mean making the right choices about whether you decide to lead a sedentary lifestyle or not; smoking, drinking, omnivore vs. vegetarian, etc. Do I believe our healthcare system is expensive, inadequate, bogged down in bureacracy . . . absolutely.
benz72 | July 11, 2012 at 1:08 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Ah, that is clearer and I agree with almost all of it.
CaliforniaDefender | July 11, 2012 at 3:06 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
My apologies to KPBS, I only watched the TV interview and did not notice the radio interview with Prof. Andrea Freeman.
Prof. Freeman's discussion with Cavanaugh was very interesting:
CAVANAUGH: Well, what I'm saying is that we have had some comments on the website that say that holding this swim class for women, and it was motivated by Muslim women's concerns, and allowing only them to participate is akin to whites only discrimination.
FREEMAN: Right. Well, you have hit the nail on the head by using the word motivation, because discrimination in a legal sense has to be motivated by hostility or annimus toward a certain group. Whereas a whites only pool is clearly discriminatory because it is hostile to nonwhite, this women's only class is not hostile to men.
CAVANAUGH: But it doesn't allow men.
FREEMAN: Yes, but when you speak about discrimination in a legal sense, are it's important that there is intent. So the intent to discriminate is part of discrimination.
CAVANAUGH: I see. So just not allowing someone to attend is not discrimination?
FREEMAN: Not in a legal sense.
CAVANAUGH: Ah, ha. So under what circumstances would a class like this violate antidiscrimination laws?
FREEMAN: There aren't any.
According to Prof. Freeman, discrimination against whites and males is perfectly legal based on a loose definition of "intent". However, when you apply the exact same "intent" when whites or men wish to exclude others it is illegal.
I also find the laughter after Freeman's last comment to be very telling.
benz72 | July 11, 2012 at 3:43 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
"Whereas a whites only pool is clearly discriminatory because it is hostile to nonwhite, this women's only class is not hostile to men."
This is what really confuses me. In what way is that distinction clear? Is there some other pattern besides A vs A' that could be applied? If so, what are the standards for that application?
llk | July 11, 2012 at 3:49 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
That's so weird that it becomes illegal when whites or men want to exclude others. Why do you suppose that is? What reason could there possibly be?
I find your willful ignorance to be quite telling, but this story's not about me, it's about some muslim women who want to swim in a pool while being good muslims. No one is allowed to have a problem with that.
benz72 | July 11, 2012 at 4:17 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Ilk, which parts, if any, of your post are intended to be sarcastic?
llk | July 11, 2012 at 4:20 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
It's not important. The important thing is that people stop objecting to this manufactured controversy. Thanks and have a great day.
CaliforniaDefender | July 11, 2012 at 5:40 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Commissar Ilk, we won't speak out again, please don't send us to the gulag!
The aggressive and unabashed arrogance of some people is just...astounding.
Ilk, how about you start over and bring us a reasoned argument as to why minorities are permitted to discriminate but not whites or men. If you have one...
JohnL | July 11, 2012 at 6:27 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
More of the Fake FoxNews style manufactured controversy by what seems promulgated by white-separatists?or religious bigots?and nativists that constantly spam KPBS website,(see above), and others that either don't read before typing or might benefit from a remedial reading comprehension class.I'm sure many can attest to the fact that for maybe 50-60 yrs ,in many public/private pools across America and many other parts of the world there have been women's,children's and many other types of segregated swim times
Again, freedom of speech is important, but the constant nativist spamming should be moderated and those that violate banned.
llk | July 11, 2012 at 9:51 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
CaliforniaDefender, I'd be happy to lay that argument out for you. However, because my time is valuable and I'd hate for my efforts to be in vain, please first provide me with an example of some actual discrimination being perpetrated by minorities, because I certainly don't see any of that in this story.
Really123 | July 12, 2012 at 7:57 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Ilk- your idea of debate is one hand clapping.
Missionaccomplished | July 12, 2012 at 10:42 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
I also find the prof's laughter strange, to say the least.
What makes this issue more complex than what it otherwise might be, is the fact that in Islam, the doctrine is all encompassing and infleunces even secular society. I certainly do not wish to see laws in this country like those they tried to enact in France banning scarves.
Last week I was standing in a huge line in Tijuana to get back across the port of entry and I spotted two traditionally dressed Muslim African women and I thought to myself how the world really is getting smaller, not just through techonology but also through demographics and yet our tribalist mentality keeps resisting this reality.
CaliforniaDefender | July 12, 2012 at 12:30 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Try defending your own points rather than attempting to silence contrary views as this is a debate forum, not an echo chamber. I also suggest you stop calling people names like "bigot" and "white separatist" as it is quite offensive.
CaliforniaDefender | July 12, 2012 at 12:33 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
It's quite time-consuming to come up with a reasoned argument to defend your beliefs after they have been challenged, isn't it?
I'll make it quick and easy for you:
East African Muslim women have been afforded exclusive access to the YMCA while prohibiting access by those deemed undesirable. They also prohibit the employment of those same undesirables.
That is clear cut discrimination, not that I disagree with the YMCA doing it.
CaliforniaDefender | July 12, 2012 at 12:50 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
I agree that the laughter was odd. Perhaps if they included someone with a contrary view, they wouldn't have felt so comfortable laughing about this serious topic.
Anyway, what is so wrong with tribalism? This instance of segregation in a pool helps protect and reinforce the culture and religion of those African women. It would be a shame if their culture was lost simply because they were granted refugee status in America.
llk | July 12, 2012 at 1:14 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Oh, so it's discrimination, and all discrimination is equally bad regardless of intent, yet you agree with the YMCA doing it. Makes sense!
CaliforniaDefender | July 12, 2012 at 2:34 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
I never said all discrimination was bad.
We live in a society built on equality. If one group is allowed to discriminate, all groups should be permitted. This means "separate but equal" with equal being the focus and intent.
What argument, if any, do you have against that?
llk | July 12, 2012 at 2:45 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Try and focus more on the intent behind different kinds of discrimination, instead of what groups have or don't have the right to discriminate. Therein lies your key to finally understanding this issue.
CaliforniaDefender | July 12, 2012 at 5:06 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
The intent in this case is that the African Muslim women feel uncomfortable swimming with men due to their cultural and religious values.
But what if a group of men felt uncomfortable swimming with women? Or whites with blacks? Or Jews with Muslims? Or overweight with skinny? Or nudists with clothed? There is no difference in the intent as each group feels uncomfortable or wishes to honor their cultural, religious, or personal values.
Ilk, there's no substance behind your argument. So stop offering keys when your pockets are empty.
JohnL | July 12, 2012 at 5:41 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
CD, I have defended my own points, your "debate"has no meaning as it is based upon falsehoods, you are smearing and mischaracterizing the Y and story, seemingly to get attention,many of your previous statments might be found on a neo-nazi type site and would generally be considered racist/bigoted and are not cute or funny
llk | July 13, 2012 at 7:34 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
But what if a group of men felt uncomfortable swimming with women? Or whites with blacks? Or Jews with Muslims? Or overweight with skinny? Or nudists with clothed?
Go ahead and present evidence of one of those things actually happening, and we'll go from there. Until then, CaliforniaDefender, you're busy imagining hypothetical scenarios while I'm here trying to defend the rights of some living, breathing Californians.
benz72 | July 13, 2012 at 10:50 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Ilk, unless I misunderstand CD's point, the issue is that should one of those groups present that argument as a reasonable cause for exclusion we would/should all say 'no, play nice with everybody else'.
It really gets into the issue of private vs. public and the control of access. Do you believe there should be uniform rules for controlling access or should they be dependent on which group is doing the excluding?
CaliforniaDefender | July 13, 2012 at 11:03 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Your personal attacks are incredibly offensive.
Stop labeling people neo-nazis, bigots, or racist simply because you disagree with them. Either address my viewpoint or go home. You have no business attacking me personally, especially using such horrible labels which are entirely false.
llk | July 13, 2012 at 11:15 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
No, the issue is that some women are trying to learn how to swim, and some people are opposed to that. Why resist this? Who is actually being harmed by the alleged discrimination? You and the Defender know full well the answer is nobody, yet you push back and spin this entirely innocuous "story" as an "issue" because some people's ideas about cultural assimilation are of paramount importance, and they will be as petulant as they need to be about it.
It only gets into the issue of private vs. public and the control of access if you want it to. And if you want it to, it makes me question your intent.
llk | July 13, 2012 at 11:20 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
If personal attacks are incredibly offensive, then the aggressive and unabashed hypocrisy of some people is just...astounding.
benz72 | July 13, 2012 at 11:33 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Ilk, is it possible that you missed the point that the women who want to learn to swim are welcome to do so with the rest of the people who want to learn to swim, in an inclusive vice exclusive setting? I don't think anyone is opposed to their learning, only the requirement they be given special consideration.
As far as I can tell, the only things preventing them from participating with the rest of the group are their own neuroses about inclusion with other people who happen not to be women. I can understand holding a separate session for someone who is physically or mentally disabled and will need extra help. Dividing teaching resources this way helps each set of students get the most out of the experience. I would like to avoid thinking of this group as mentally disabled by their religion. Please help me understand what legitimate need this is addressing.
JohnL | July 13, 2012 at 11:45 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
CD Personal attacks?the hypocritical deflection and smearing continues,your words-"I never opposed the culturally based Latino Film Festival, but black yes.","Just be fair and equal by allowing all groups to segregate."," I see no issue with a private business or organization excluding anyone they don't want to serve. ","My point is that "separate but equal" is now happily encouraged so long as the group isn't white or male. And that needs to change!"," It is now the left that is discriminatory, prejudiced, and bigoted."
Natalie Walsh, KPBS Staff | July 13, 2012 at 12:14 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
While KPBS supports the dialogue, it appears that some of it is turning into name calling and is going off topic. And many of you are are simply repeating yourselves without advancing the conversation. Please keep your comments civil and on point.
JohnL | July 13, 2012 at 12:15 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
One can only conclude there are some that are jealous that others have something to do or getting something they don't have
CaliforniaDefender | July 13, 2012 at 12:22 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Hypothetical or not, my suggestion has reasonable potential. What argument do you have for prohibiting segregation for some and allowing it for others? You still have not provided one.
But if you really want a few examples here you go:
llk | July 13, 2012 at 12:25 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
"Ilk, is it possible that you missed the point that the women who want to learn to swim are welcome to do so with the rest of the people who want to learn to swim, in an inclusive vice exclusive setting?"
No. I'm aware of that, as are you and as are the women. You're just pretending to not understand why they'd want their own class.
If islam is just a series of codified neuroses as far as you can tell, then maybe you should excuse yourself from this conversation since you're not a rational human being.
I'm gonna go ahead and do the same out of boredom.
CaliforniaDefender | July 13, 2012 at 12:35 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Thank you. I'm going to ignore JohnL and I recommend everyone else does the same as he has no interest in advancing the debate.
You don't understand my argument. I fully support the YMCA and their segregation policy. The African Muslim women need that class to feel comfortable and I'm happy they have it. However, this ability to segregate must be applied to any group that feels uncomfortable around others, whether it be race, gender, religion, culture, diet, clothing, health...anything.
benz72 | July 13, 2012 at 1:09 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
If that is all there is to it, then I do understand why they want their own class, and find the rationale hardly worth considering. I would be no more inclined accommodate someone butchering a goat in the middle of Morley Field because of some bronze age stories than I would endorse gender segregation in a public place based on the same flawed premise. Religious scripture is not a legitimate foundation for law or public policy. If you think that makes me irrational, we probably cannot reach consensus. Have a good day.
Nyeemah | July 14, 2012 at 7:56 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
"We talk the talk in terms of embracing diversity, but when it comes to actually practicing diversity, we don't actually do a very good job..."
So much irony, so little time. Have you considered, KPBS and others, that it is Muslims who are not embracing diversity by not participating in regularly scheduled classes and programs.
Missionaccomplished | July 14, 2012 at 3:27 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
CA O says "what is wrong with triablism"?
Hmm. Try Rwanda or Bosnia-Herzegovina and Albania?
PS: JOHN L doesn't name-call. Calling someone a racist, a bigot, a nativist, or rightwing is not "name-calling." Calling someone a "redneck," or "toothless wonder" or a "wetback" would be. Of course, then the Far Right has their "code' words.
Missionaccomplished | July 14, 2012 at 3:30 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
CA O, I think moderator Natalie meant those words for EVERYONE--not someone in particular.
JohnL | July 15, 2012 at 11 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Thank you Missionaccomplished, There was no personal attack,as I did not specify/single-out.That someone assumed I was talking about them might prove my case.That a nice, human interest story was hijacked by some ,that post anonymously, to promote immigrant bashing based on race,gender,religion is nothing new,what is surprising is that KPBS has let it stand,Why this is important;
The increase in violence against Hispanics correlates closely with the increasingly heated debate over Comprehensive Immigration Reform and an escalation in the level of anti-immigrant vitriol on radio, television, and the Internet. While reasonable people can and will disagree about the parameters of Comprehensive Immigration Reform, in some instances, the commentary about immigration reform has not been reasonable; it has been inflammatory. Warned an April 2009 assessment from the Office of Intelligence and Analysis at the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS), "in some cases, anti-Immigration or strident pro-enforcement fervor has been directed against specific groups and has the potential to turn violent."
This toxic environment, in which hateful rhetoric targets immigrants while the number of hate crimes against Hispanics and others perceived to be immigrants steadily increases, has caused a heightened sense of fear in communities around the country.http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/escalating-violence.html
JohnL | July 15, 2012 at 11:01 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
FAIR, CIS and NumbersUSA are all part of a network of restrictionist organizations conceived and created by John Tanton, the "puppeteer" of the nativist movement and a man with deep racist roots. As the first article in this report shows, Tanton has for decades been at the heart of the white nationalist scene. He has met with leading white supremacists, promoted anti-Semitic ideas, and associated closely with the leaders of a eugenicist foundation once described by a leading newspa- per as a "neo-Nazi organization."http://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/pdf/static/splc_nativistlobby_022009.pdf
jrpeng | July 15, 2012 at 4:13 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Brand-spanking new to the KPBS website, although I've been listing to KPBS for quite some time. I must say, I was startlingly taken aback by the tenor of the conversation here. Clearly, this is an issue that has touched several nerves. I've waded through much of the comments (although I tend to dismiss those that say things such as "It's people like you that..." or "You're obviously not well-educated..." or "I find your willful ignorance to be quite telling..." once attacks start, the speaker loses all credibility with me), and I have to agree that there is quite a predominantly negative atmosphere in here.
That being said, I do recognize that many folks have reacted strongly to Copley YMCA's decision to offer the all-women's swim class, and that a lot of the perceived hostility is actually meant more as the expression (or venting) of legitimate feelings on the matter.
I wanted to offer my 2 cents on this topic. I'll apologize in advance if I'm anyone replies to my commentary and I don't respond to them. I'm not necessarily actively following this discussion thread, I just wanted to offer another perspective.
jrpeng | July 15, 2012 at 4:19 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
(And I ask you to bear with me if I seem to be taking a long time to present my argument - I'm multitasking between several tasks on my computer, in addition to house chores.)
jrpeng | July 15, 2012 at 4:38 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
I worked at La Jolla Y for 9 years in the Aquatics Department as a lifeguard, swim teacher, and lifeguard/professional rescuer instructor. There are subtle differences between how each AQ department is run from one facility to another (La Jolla vs. Copley, for example), but as the YMCA is a national (and fairly standardized) organization, I can speak with a fair amount of authority on some of the things going on here. (I will offer the disclaimer that I've been away from the YMCA for about 2 years now, and I'm sure there are a few things that have changed and/or developed since I left.)
I can remember a specific instance while on duty at the pool, probably within my last year of working there, where I was approached by a young woman in what looked to me like some sort of Middle-Eastern garb (my memory is a little fuzzy on just what she was wearing, but it was certainly intended to cover her up). She asked me if there was any set time when the pool was perhaps set aside to allow women to swim without men present. I apologetically told her, "No, I'm afraid there's not." She commented (very politely) that some women would like the opportunity to swim or learn to swim, but cannot do so in the presence of men, because of their customs and beliefs. I smiled and said that I understood, but that we simply didn't have the means to facilitate something like that. She seemed disappointed, but was gracious when she thanked me and left.
My initial thought in response to her inquiry was, "Gosh, how can someone expect us to seclude the pool for just one group of people?" I understood where she was coming from, and I felt bad, but it just didn't seem logistically practical.
My second thought - the one that has remained with me since that encounter - was along the lines of, "Man, that's actually really quite a shame. We could really reach out to a whole population that isn't being served right now." And I don't mean that from a business standpoint - I'm not talking about raking in revenues. I mean a population that isn't benefiting from access to the types of services we provide for the community.
jrpeng | July 15, 2012 at 5:18 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Given this, I was very excited to see that Copley has created just such an opportunity for these women. Now they will have the chance to learn to swim, which is absolutely among the most important skills a person can develop. I also greatly appreciate Copley's attempt to reach out and embrace those who are culturally different from what we're accustomed to. One key tenent in our training to become swim instructors is to look for ways to try and include everyone. This includes accommodations for those with disabilities of all natures, and those with cultural differences. (I couldn't even begin to describe just how many different cultures I've seen represented in my swim classes.)
This brings me to a point of clarification that I wanted to offer you, that you may or may not be aware of. In the last few years, there has been a campaign within the YMCA to revamp how the organization presents and sells itself to the public. Yes, the Y started off as the Young Men's Christian Association; but it has grown and developed and blossomed into so much more than the name would suggest. The Y, in changing its appearance, wanted to appeal to a larger, more inclusive population, to let the public know that it's not just for certain groups of people, but for everyone. (Indeed, that's one of the Y's slogans: "It's for everyone!") As part of this makeover, the YMCA logo was changed from black/white/red to more multi-colored; and the name of the organization, was changed from the YMCA to just the "Y" (although the letters "YMCA" do appear alongside that big "Y"). The Y still operates on the same founding principles it always has, "To put Christian principles into practice through programs that build healthy spirit, mind and body for all." The mission statement of the YMCA of San Diego County reads "The YMCA of San Diego County is dedicated to improving the quality of human life and to helping all people realize their fullest potential as children of God through development of the spirit, mind and body." You can see here very explicit language that seems to indicate that it is a Christian organization; but it's not intended to be. Part of it's listed philosophy is that "All people are welcome to participate regardless of race, age, gender, sexual orientation, ability, ethnicity, religion, or ability to pay."
I bring this up to emphasize the Y's interest in seeking to include, rather than exclude, individuals or groups of people.
jrpeng | July 15, 2012 at 5:27 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
So, my position is that Copley Y is doing a wonderful thing by offering the all-women's swim class. It is reaching out to a population that otherwise seems to be excluded from active participation; and it is helping these women learn to swim. As a swim instructor, I don't care what background you come from. You need to learn to swim. You never know when you'll need that skill, even if it's only to keep yourself afloat. And as a person who embraces the philosophy of loving, honoring and respecting all people, I am more than happy to honor the customs and practices that are so extremely important to these women.
jrpeng | July 15, 2012 at 6:03 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Many of you are concerned about the discriminatory impact on employees of the Y, the impingement on members' access to the facility; and the issue of public money funding some of the Y's programs (and thereby potentially funding this class). Let me address those issues; hopefully, it can help allay some fears and frustrations.
It's already been recognized and discussed that the class is being offered once a week, after hours. This was stated in the article. So the seclusion of the pool for this class isn't denying other members access. This, I would think, is a non-issue, or a false issue.
It's also been acknowledged that the women participating in the class are paying not only for the class (which includes the cost of the instructor/s), but for the lifeguard(s) as well.
It is not uncommon for individuals or groups to rent use of the pool for events such as birthday parties, graduation parties, organized activities, etc. Providing facility management approves it, these rentals can take place after hours. If they so desired, the Boy Scouts of America could rent the pool for an hour as a den or troop activity; the BSA doesn't allow girls (although they could allow girls to swim with them, IF they wanted to). Parents could rent the pool for an hour for their little girl's birthday party; it's entirely possible that the little girl has invited only girl friends. A group of college graduates could rent the pool for an hour to celebrate graduation; they might be all male, or all female, or co-ed. In each of these scenarios, the persons in question are paying with their own money for use of the pool, for the presence of the lifeguard, and for any additional staff they might request. This is what the women of the all-women's swim class are doing. They're paying with their own money for use of the pool, presence of the lifeguard, and the time of the instructor(s).
Additionally, many children are gender-sensitive - meaning that they respond better to one gender over the other. Many, many parents request instructors of a specific gender for this very reason. As well, adult swimmers who are gender-sensitive also request instructors of a specific gender. The motivation isn't intended as discrimination, it's meant to make the swimmer more comfortable, and thereby better facilitate their learning experience. I see no difference between this and the request for only female lifeguards and instructors for the all-women's swim class.
This point also addresses the issue of denying potential hours to male employees. For swim lessons where a male instructor is requested, a female instructor cannot fill that position, even if a male instructor is unavailable at the requested time slot - unless the swimmer decides that they're willing to compromise. Likewise, for lessons where a female instructor is requested, a male instructor cannot fill that positon, for the same reasons.
jrpeng | July 15, 2012 at 6:04 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Regarding potential overtime hours - this can be a trick point, but it's not impossible to mitigate. Yes, if a lifeguard or swim instructor has been on the clock for a certain amount of time, and accepting the after-hours class would put them over 8 hours for the day, they have to log the extra hours as overtime. That's the law. However, department directors and coordinators are responsible for managing their staff's hours, and are highly encouraged by their superiors to not allow anyone to work more than 8 hours in a day. It is the responsibility of the department director or coordinator to make sure that none of their staff works overtime, unless it is absolutely necessary. Thus, he/she should not and would not be assigning the hours for the all-women's swim class to anyone who would end up with overtime as a result. Since Copley is running the class, I would assume that the staff hours are sufficiently managed to avoid overtime. If, at some point, it becomes impossible to avoid overtime, and either the aquatics department or senior management is unwilling to grant overtime, then it is the responsibility of the aquatics director or coordinator to close the class (make it unavailable) until it can be assigned without accruing overtime.
jrpeng | July 15, 2012 at 6:07 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
I hope this helps to clarify some of the issues that many of you are concerned about. As I said, I'm not actively following this discussion; but if I do find time to come back, and anyone has posted any responses to my comments, I'll try to respond.
Peace be upon you.
llk | July 16, 2012 at 8:07 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Great post! Thanks for your thoughtful contribution to this conversation.
JeanMarc | July 16, 2012 at 10:50 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Why do people still try to look past the fact that the root of this issue is the barbaric view of women within Islam and the progressives accepting it out of fear of not being politically correct or tolerant?
Suzanne Marmion, KPBS Staff | July 16, 2012 at 1:52 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Thank you all for the kinder tone you are taking--this helps grow the conversation instead of shutting it down.
plak | July 16, 2012 at 3:15 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
I don't see anything constructive or informative in using slurs against one's religion, race, or gender. This has been a fake controversy. I am surprised that KPBS has tolerated the obvious slams against these women and their needs under the guise of cultural debate. Religious bias vs. religious tolerance is not an equivalent debate.
SDMom22 | July 16, 2012 at 4:07 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Isn't the Y a private organization? As such, they have the right/responsibility to serve their members. So if their members want or need a private swim time, they should offer it. Especially if doing so doesn't take away from any other members. If you don't agree with the policy, don't join the Y, or give up your membership. Just as the Boy Scouts went all the way to the supreme court to affirm themselves a private organization with the right to discriminate. Don't like what they stand for? Don't be a member. Don't like the Muslim restrictions on women? Don't become a Muslim. But don't denigrate others for doing so. Part of the whole American ethos is to allow for these differences and to allow private organizations to accommodate them.
Nyeemah | July 16, 2012 at 5:09 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
"Thank you all for the kinder tone you are taking--this helps grow the conversation instead of shutting it down."
Interesting. Is this a subtle warning? JeanMarc's observation just prior to this comment opens the door to lead the conversation in the direction it went in the previous column: addressing the question of whether gender-segregated classes enable ideological misogyny, and the role of the classes in the broader picture of assimilation vs. colonization.
The last conversation on this public forum was censored and then aborted by the KPBS staff, more because of what was said, not how it was said. The staff disagreed that there is a bigger picture to be considered. It will be interesting to see from this point if the conversation is allowed to continue, or if provincial attitudes prevail.
JeanMarc | July 17, 2012 at 9:15 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Nyeemah - me and you see eye to eye on this issue. Don't worry, we are not alone, even though we are becoming rarer in California, the US, and the whole world. For fear of being banned from commenting, I have learned to temper myself somewhat so that I am still able to continue voicing my opinion and standing up for truth in the face of abject leftism.
It is shocking how many people don't realize that the path this country has gone down over the last fifty years follows the exact blueprint towards socialism as architected by the worlds most prolific socialists and communists of the past. The same that influenced the Harvard professors, who in turn influenced the current elite on the left. One of the building blocks to a socialist future is... get ready... tolerance!
llk | July 17, 2012 at 9:37 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Ah, so it's the HARVARD ELITE who are behind the YMCA teaching muslim women how to swim! I knew something was up - something huge, something DANGEROUS - but it took the clever mind of our own JeanMarc to see the bigger picture.
It's all part of THEIR plan. First, segregated swim classes. Next, boots trampling over our faces forever. Might as well throw in the towel, America...
benz72 | July 17, 2012 at 10:43 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Ilk, since you bring it up, albeit sarcastically, do you see some bright line in this gradual erosion of freedoms that it would be perilous to cross or do you foresee this trend toward socialism reversing itself at some point? If so, please explain. Or are you advocating for socialism?
llk | July 17, 2012 at 11:12 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
You see an "erosion of freedoms" whereas I see a group of women who'd like to learn how to swim while remaining compliant with the customs of their religion. You are insistent on perceiving a slippery slope argument. In reality, none exists. The class is being offered after hours. This is no more discriminatory than separate men's and women's public restrooms - an arrangement which offends no one because it enforces a long-existing cultural norm for decency. You either respect others' cultural norms, or you don't.
There are many -isms I might be inclined to advocate for, but this issue isn't about me, it's about a group of women's right to learn how to swim the way they feel comfortable doing so. I don't feel that's too much to ask. It's really that simple. Don't make this issue more complicated than it has to be.
JohnL | July 17, 2012 at 11:17 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Dr.Batnitzki was right,also, this is a coordinated nationwide effort against these women and the Y and others .I urge people to take 5min.to google "segregated swim time"or similar and see the groups behind this.Will KPBS report on this?
Missionaccomplished | July 17, 2012 at 11:26 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
@JOHN L, and those Nativist neo-Malthusian websites, masquerading as "independent" or "non-partisan," have been discredited by both conservatives and liberals: ADL, SPLC and the WSJ -- and also by Common Sense and Reason.
DeLaRick | July 17, 2012 at 11:33 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Intolerance of others' cultures and ideologies equals fascism. There are too many subcultures and ethnicities in our country for it to ever work. Join the human race and stop wasting time supporting xenophobic arguments. Take the time to actually befriend a few Muslims and enrich yourself.
Missionaccomplished | July 17, 2012 at 11:42 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
NYEEMAH, PLEASE DO explain how gender/sex segregated classes in themselves promote "misogyny."
You would have me, as a male become a "pole dancer" because otherwise it is "gender-based segration"??? (I'm thininf of the exercise class on Unviersity Ave.)
Or is it sexism and gender-based segregation when Mexico City has "women only" mini buses for public transportation so they will not get "brushed up against" in one of the most crowded cities in the world?
Missionaccomplished | July 17, 2012 at 11:47 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
JEANMARC, the last fifty years? Let me see, you long for the discriminatory pre-1965 immigration Quota System, Christian prayers in public schools, and pre-1954 "separate but equal" segreation.
So in your mind the landmark Supreme Court rulings and the civil rights acts of 1964 , 1965 and 1968 are all leading to . . . oh my God! . . . socialism!!!
Nyeemah | July 18, 2012 at 6:26 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
If we're going to disregard the principle of separation of church and state by applying Islamic doctrine (Sharia law) to management decisions at public facilities, then to understand the important global context of this backyard issue, it's probably best if we first look at the sources of that doctrine for greater understanding of the big picture. Ramadan begins Friday (7/20) and Muslims worldwide will be reading the Koran from cover to cover as a devotion during their holy month. Non-Muslims (unbelievers) could read it for educational purposes. In addition, it's probably a good idea to look around the world (many European cities are struggling with this) at the existence of parallel societies where colonization v. assimilation leads to populations of people who reject their host country's legal system, social system and norms, etc. because they believe that their religious laws supercede the laws of their new land. Taking it a step further in understanding Islamic doctrine, one could study the recent history of a microcosm like the Maldives. If people truly want answers to the questions they're asking, the information is out there. Best wishes to all.
Missionaccomplished | July 19, 2012 at 10:25 a.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
That doesn't explain your original mistatement. Try again.
Nyeemah | July 20, 2012 at 1:56 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
Sorry. I can't do you homework for you. But here's an easy way for you to get started:
It's the Koran with a simple search feature. Type in various words like: unbeliever (anyone who is not Muslim), friend, fight, strike, witness, punishment.
Do that and you're on your way to greater understanding.
CaliforniaDefender | July 23, 2012 at 12:18 p.m. ― 4 years, 8 months ago
"In addition, it's probably a good idea to look around the world (many European cities are struggling with this) at the existence of parallel societies..."
Nyeemah, well written post.
Most European nations are sitting back and allowing their legal/illegal immigrant populations to voluntarily segregate themselves, which they happily do.
Thus their new land becomes indistinguishable from their old land. That is the definition of colonization.
Good, bad, or ugly? One thing is for certain, America is slowly following suit.


text:
Dante Gabriel Rossetti
Dante Gabriel Rossetti
(12 May 1828 – 9 April 1882 / London / England)
Sonnet Xc: "retro Me, Sathana!"
Get thee behind me. Even as, heavy-curled,
Stooping against the wind, a charioteer
Is snatched from out his chariot by the hair,
read more >>
- Hits: Number of visitors who read the poem on the given date.
- Posts: Number of visitors who posted the poem to a friend (via e-mail) on the given date.
- Dates that have "0" hits may not be shown on the list.
- Dates, poems and poets that have "0" hits may not be shown on the list. Statistics are generated daily.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
April 20, 2010
NFL Draft: Toby Gerhart update
38 comments:
- kritisk_borger said...
Who cares about football? Hockey is my game :-)
Utterly OT, but I thought that this might interest you personally, Steve.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/7607690/Sir-Paul-Nurse-Geneticist-inherits-a-mystery.html - 4/20/10, 3:58 AM
- Shouting Thomas said...
You haven't shown much interest in the saga of John Scheyer, point guard of the Duke basketball team that just won the national championship.
Scheyer's stats are better than most of the black point guards who are projected to be drafted ahead of him into the NBA. Why so little interest from the NBA? Because Scheyer is white. As usual, he's been labeled "slow" and "unathletic."
I thought that the "athletic" guy was the one who wins.
I watched Scheyer play about a dozen times this year. (Plenty of time due to underemployment.) He consistently drove past and posted up the black guards who were supposedly faster and more athletic than him. I saw this with my own lying eyes.
Point guard is a position that demands intelligence. Scheyer is Jewish, of all things! His high school team won the Illinois state championship... with an all-Jewish roster!
I've got a theory about black athletic dominance, too. Black athletes aren't expected to do much in school. This is true from elementary school forward. This is quite a competitive advantage versus white kids, who actually do take school seriously.
Another aspect of black dominance that you do not address is the culture of machismo. Black men are encouraged by their own community and by the black community to be threatening and macho. White men have been beaten down for decades by their own community. Any display of machismo is ruthlessly suppressed, lest white men decide to go out and form a chapter of the Klan.
If Scheyer has a weakness, it's that he's a nice guy. If he was playing with the raw, angry machismo that Jordan played with, Scheyer would be an absolute terror.
I don't think I buy your "blacks have better genes" explanation for their athletic dominance. The answer is that they benefit from an affirmative action system (they aren't expected to really be students), and they play with the murderous machismo that white guys are not allowed.
European white guys in the NBA don't seem to have the problems competing that American born white guys have. I don't think you are onto the right explanation here, Steve.
In fact, I think that the NBA and NFL have distorted their games to favor blacks. In the NBA, fundamental basketball has gone to hell as kids have gone directly from high school to the pros. In the NFL, tactics that favored white players have virtually disappeared, although those tactics still work. For instance, the Fred Belitnikoff type of possession receiver no longer exists. Yet, when the Patriots resurrected the tactic with Wesley Welker, they experienced great success.
The NBA and NFL have restructured their games to favor black athletes. They have done so because the black approach has more entertainment value. The individualistic, me-first black approach is more entertaining.
If you watched Duke all year, you would have seen a smart, 80% white team consistently beating all black, supposedly more athletic teams. The NBA game is rigged for black players. The 24 second clock discourages team play. There isn't enough time to develop the passing game. This places a premium on one-on-one moves, effectively penalizing white players like Scheyer who are masters of passing and setting up other players.
The real difference between the college and pro game is the shot clock. In college ball, the 35 second shot clock gives a player like Scheyer a platform for executing his game. - 4/20/10, 5:09 AM
Why doesn't he just play golf, Steve? Being a good athelete doesn't exactly mean he'll be a good baseball player.
He should try playing Rugby in Europe. His skill would be a lot more likely to transfer and they even let white people carry the ball. - 4/20/10, 5:23 AM
His career stats are hitting .264 and 9 HR in 235 AB against college pitching, with an aluminum bat, and you want him rolling the dice on baseball. Ooookay.
Baseball,thats the way to go. "Plastics!" But theres more glory in playing football and being a RB.Having just come across(yes) your buddy Malcolm Gladwell's article about football head injuries,I'd advise him to steer clear of the gsme-tho linemen are obv the guys who suffer the most from brain trauma. As for Matt Kemp dating Rhianna--that lucky son of a bitch!!!! --its interesting how race factors into things. Apparently Justin Timberlake hit on her and was rebuffed,or maybe not. But lets say he was. Rh doesnt like him sexually,partly because he be,OK sorry,because he IS white. Now JT can score any number of white women who are far better looking and sexier than Rhianna.You'd think sex is a straight-up marketplace where you get whoever is equal or lesser than yourself. But if JT liked black women, might he have to settle for a much lesser specimen of woman comp. to the awesome white,latina,and Asians he would otherwise have throwing themselves at him? And why DO women seem to like him so much? I dont see it.
I am surprised that one only needs to have an IQ of 118 to be valedictorian, even of a working class school.
Have you been following "Sports Science" ["Sport Science"?], with John Brenkus?
Pierre-Paul To Star in Sports Science NFL Draft Analysis
The Sport Science of Ndamukong Suh
espn.go.com - 4/20/10, 8:10 AM
- Justin Martyr said...
Actually, by speed score he is the 4th best running back in the draft. Speed score combines size with 40 yard dash time, and according to the sabermetric types, is one of the best predictors of NFL success.
- Toadal said...
The Wonderlic Personnel Test is a twelve-minute, fifty-question test used to assess the aptitude of prospective employees for learning and problem-solving in a wide range of occupations.[1] The test was developed by industrial psychologist Eldon F. Wonderlic.[2] The score is calculated as the number of correct answers given in the allotted time. A score of 20 is intended to indicate average intelligence (corresponding to an intelligence quotient of 100; a rough conversion is accomplished via the following formula: IQ = (2WPT + 60) .
(From Yahoo Sports) 'Gerhart posts top RB Wonderlic score'
Notable running back's Wonderlic scores and their NFP rankings.
Jahvid Best (California): 24 (108 IQ) Ranked #1
C.J. Spiller (Clemson): 10 (70 IQ) Ranked #2
Jon Dwyer (Georgia Tech): 17 (94 IQ) Ranked #3
Toby Gerhart (Stanford): 30 (118 IQ) Ranked #6
Ryan Matthews (Fresno State): 16 (92 IQ) Ranked #7
LeGarrette Blount (Oregon): 16 (92 IQ) Ranked #9
For such a celebrated Caucasian running back to be ranked only at #6, shows an inequality of talent distributed among races.
Discover magazine's Spring 2010 'The Brain' and 'The Science of Smart' issue also discusses the distribution and of talent in our world, mental talent. Along with articles on smart octopuses, brilliant children, and brain dissection is an interview with evolutionary psychologist Steven Pinker on language. In it he argues against the MSM depiction of the mind as an empty vessel, or blank slate. He says people fear the possibility each person has genetically determined predisposition for three reasons:
1) People fear inequality. If people are genetically endowed, then some people have more abilities than others, or have different attributes.
2) Men cannot be perfected through education. If traits such as violence and selfishness are innate, then that might make them unchangeable, and attempts at social reform may become a waste of time.
3) People fear that personal responsibility will disappear if free will is shown to be an illusion, i.e. Biological Determinism - 4/20/10, 9:08 AM
- Svigor said...
Hell, even moving to TE would be an improvement over RB. RB doesn't sound like a life for a guy with a 118 IQ unless it's the only thing open.
Off-topic, but the Mexifornization of America continues apace.
Of course Espada is technically Puerto Rican... - 4/20/10, 12:11 PM
He'll make a great fullback.
I think I remember qn IQ of 122 mentioned for Brian Westbrook
"I don't think I buy your "blacks have better genes" explanation for their athletic dominance."
I think blacks do have "better genes" for the most physically demanding sports, but I agree with some of your other points. It doesn't just have to be one or the other. - 4/20/10, 12:32 PM
- Justin Martyr said...
Shouting Thomas, you should check out Taboo by John Entine. Black children can run faster and jump higher than whites as young as age 6 and the gap grows with age. Blacks of West African descent are more muscular than whites and have broader shoulders and less bodyfat.
Jahvid Best (California): 24 (108 IQ) Ranked #1
C.J. Spiller (Clemson): 10 (70 IQ) Ranked #2
Jon Dwyer (Georgia Tech): 17 (94 IQ) Ranked #3
Toby Gerhart (Stanford): 30 (118 IQ) Ranked #6
Ryan Matthews (Fresno State): 16 (92 IQ) Ranked #7
LeGarrette Blount (Oregon): 16 (92 IQ) Ranked #9
Interesting about Spiller. I knew he was no rocket surgeon (due to being being infested with Clemson fnas- even they admit it).
But as I ate lunch in a local joint, ESPN had a "touching" (predictable?) segment on Spiller studying hard, gamely watching film and trying to memorize defenses.
Despite the softball questions and slick editing, the prevailing thought was Running Back, Talented, Complete Rock with Lips, 1 each. - 4/20/10, 12:36 PM
I should say African-Americans rather than just blacks, because it seems clear (and logical) that the descendants of slaves are more athletic than regular Africans.
"Hell, even moving to TE would be an improvement over RB."
Tell that to Kevin Boss, who repeatedly gets annihilated by safeties when he catches the ball over the middle. Better to be a slick RB like Barry Sanders and retire at your peak. - 4/20/10, 1:44 PM
So according to some of the posters, no white athlete in the United States can play running back successfully in the NFL? How was he able to play in the Pac 10 which is considered the next thing to the NFL?
- Whiskey said...
Gerhart was at Stanford, which has problems recruiting enough Black players.
The NFL is about 70% Black, the NBA about 90%. Sooner or later, that is going to hurt both as White fans look elsewhere. Particularly as America gets more racially polarized, not less in the Obama Era.
White goodwill, guilt, and shame are not limitless qualities. Certainly not in a lasting recession with brutal spoils politics for jobs and promotions and wage gains such as it is, or social spending. Along with mass immigration.
Even McCain, of all people, has had to backtrack (he'll dump it as soon as he wins his primary, if he does) because J.D. Hayworth is within five points by pushing a border fence. [No one trusts McCain on this, or much of anything else.]
NASCAR, Golf, Hockey, all have the advantage of being "White" and more friendly to White viewers than ghetto idiocy seen in a nearly all Black league. Nor after constant lectures to Whites by Obama and pals, is there much cultural restraint any more. - 4/20/10, 4:54 PM
- ironrailsironweights said...
During last Saturday's boxing match featuring Kelly Pavlik, the top white American boxer, I think I heard one of the HBO announcers refer to his low level of athleticism. Background noise in the room made it hard to tell for sure. Still, it wouldn't surprise me at all.
Pavlik lost the fight to Sergio Martinez, an Argentine who looks to be of full Caucasian descent.
Peter - 4/20/10, 7:15 PM
Regarding Rihanna. She was pretty notorious early in her career for dating only white guys and took some flak for it. Then she actually gave an interview where she said she found white guys more physically attractive and it really hit the fan. Black radio really lambasted her. Since that blew up in her face, she has only dated black guys
- Truth said...
"The NFL is about 70% Black, the NBA about 90%. Sooner or later, that is going to hurt both as White fans look elsewhere."
It's 66% and 80%, but heck, we've been waiting for that upheaval for oh, 35 years now. - 4/20/10, 8:20 PM
"I think I remember qn IQ of 122 mentioned for Brian Westbrook"
That's right Gene, he got a 31 on the Wonderlic. Generally, 20 is considered average (IQ 100), but Steve generally takes 21 to equal 100 because of the Flynn effect.
I actually suspect that a lot of NFL Wonderlic results are somewhat inflated because some agents probably have their clients practice, whereas I assume that the standardization sample on which the test was normed didn't practice, which would produce some hollow (no g) gains in the trained group.
While the amount of gain attainable on psychometric tests is often exaggerated (especially by test prep companies like Kaplan or Princeton Review), improvements are possible through training, but they don't reflect an improvement in actual abstract reasoning ability. Generally, if all or no test takers receive training, while the raw scores will be higher in the former scenario, the rank order of test takers remains virtually the same (i.e., correlation near 1.0), but if some test takers receive training and some don't, the predictive validity of the results will be diminished as some of the sample has inflated scores.) - 4/20/10, 8:46 PM
Surprised that a 118 IQ guy is not swayed by his agent's advice which is obviously to avoid playing RB position. He must have a huge ego and obsessive need for the spotlight.
RB position is dominated by low IQ players. That's why it skews heavily black. This is a cohort of individuals who do not make good decisions when planning for the future.
Agents and coaches warn young prospects for years before they reach NFL eligibility that RB position is shortest avg career in the league.
For every Walter Payton or Barry Sanders there are hundreds of two year RB careers. And most are very talented two year guys who get bounced out of the league because of injury.
The Bronco RB who did the military salute after each touchdown and won a Super Bowl ring with Elway had a short career. Also around the same time period was the Atlanta Falcon star RB who got the team very close to the Super Bowl - but then instead of leading them to a dynasty period he wrecked his knee the next season and dropped into obscurity. - 4/20/10, 9:46 PM
There was a Black/mulatto Vikings RB (Robert Smith) who played till he was 29 or so and retired early. Pretty intelligent guy who was clearly talented (lead his conference in rushing at least once). You don't have to play until you drop for a sports career to pay off. You can play a couple of years and get a better ESPN or sales job that you would have without the NFL career.
The next big thing is Jason Heyward, the 20 yr old rookie rightfielder for the Atlanta Braves.
He has the look of a kid from the streets but he's the product of a two parent family and his father is an Ivy League (Dartmouth) alum.
He's tall enough to play basketball, and big enough to play football, but he's a baseball player instead. That's a big deal.
Baseball revenue growth is strong thanks to its extremely profitable internet operations (mlb.com, March Madness on Demand, Espn360, ESPN3), and I think you'll see more black players as the money grows.
If baseball salaries grow across the board, the Royals will still struggle to compete with the Yankees, but baseball will take more athletes from other sports. - 4/21/10, 5:10 AM
- Toadal said...
Correction: C.J. Spiller's score of 10 should give him an IQ of 80 and not 70.
My apologies to Mr Spiller for my mistake.
Jahvid Best (California): 24 (108 IQ) Ranked #1
C.J. Spiller (Clemson): 10 (80 IQ) Ranked #2
Jon Dwyer (Georgia Tech): 17 (94 IQ) Ranked #3
Toby Gerhart (Stanford): 30 (118 IQ) Ranked #6
Ryan Matthews (Fresno State): 16 (92 IQ) Ranked #7
LeGarrette Blount (Oregon): 16 (92 IQ) Ranked #9
Shouting Thomas said
I don't think I buy your "blacks have better genes" explanation for their athletic dominance. The answer is that they benefit from an affirmative action system (they aren't expected to really be students), and they play with the murderous machismo that white guys are not allowed.
Ever compete athletically against black guys, Thomas?
My brother and I were high school sprinters who competed against blacks kids in regional relays and I can vouch for their sprinting dominance. A sprinter is a fairly lazy athlete since his time consists of 2/5 stretching, 2/5 moderate distance running, and 1/5 sprinting and start, hand off, and block techniques. - 4/21/10, 9:00 AM
- Black Sea said...
The next Mike Alstott?
Shouting Thomas made a good point about the game being distorted to favor blacks. If palming and carrying the ball were called on all the black guards every time they did it the games would be unwatchable. They would have 30 turnovers per side. it goes with the street ball style (dribble drive motion) that is so popular.
BTW, Matt Drudge is fronting this story right now, with two links to the following article:
Race factors into evaluation of Gerhart
By Michael Silver
Apr 20, 8:00 am EDT
sports.yahoo.com - 4/21/10, 12:00 PM
- Shouting Thomas said...
Ever compete athletically against black guys, Thomas?
Yes, and a lot more recently than high school.
I played corporate league basketball for years.
Several teams brought in ringers... 6'6" black guys who'd played college ball.
Every year, the winner of the corporate league tournament was a Japanese squad that had played together for years.
They ran and passed and employed set plays. They made the black ringers look like fools with their disciplined, intelligent tactics.
The black ringers would style and show us their Michael Jordan moves... then, more often than not, blow the shot.
It was hilarious watching those little Japanese guys running rings around the ringers. - 4/21/10, 1:16 PM
"One team I interviewed with asked me about being a white running back," Gerhart says. "They asked if it made me feel entitled, or like I felt I was a poster child for white running backs. I said, 'No, I'm just out there playing ball. I don't think about that.' I didn't really know what to say."
Imagine the outcry if an NFL team asked a black quarterback the equivalent of that question.
Loved this as well: "There's no reason I shouldn't really like him, but I just don't," added another AFC personnel executive. "He's not really shifty, but he gets yards. He's fast, but it's a long speed, and not really a quick speed. - 4/21/10, 3:02 PM
This article about Toby and his family
in case having a strong family means anything. - 4/21/10, 8:40 PM
"In fact, I think that the NBA and NFL have distorted their games to favor blacks. In the NBA, fundamental basketball has gone to hell as kids have gone directly from high school to the pro."
Hi, my name is Shouting Thomas and I don't watch the NBA. 1st, the NBA banned high-school to the pros several years ago. 2nd look up stats from when the NBA was a white (heavily jewish) league. Teams shot lower percentages against crappier defense (in today's league players intentionally take charges because they're turnovers, and players are aware of shooting zones and try to deny corner threes etc.)...And no, I'm not doing the research for you.
Whiskey, I love you but ESPN's Outside the Lines crunched the numbers and came up with a 70-75% "Black" NBA (It was a show about the decline of White-American players). I put Black in quotes because they practiced the one-drop rule so mixed race guys like Jason Kidd, Tony Parker and Joakim Noah were counted as Black. So the league is probably no more than 60-65% Black. With the rise of the foreign player the League may be less than 60% African-American! - 4/21/10, 10:39 PM
- Marc B said...
"But if JT liked black women, might he have to settle for a much lesser specimen of woman" "And why DO women seem to like him so much? I dont see it."
The women are fine with JT, even the black ones. A former girlfriend couldn't figure out why the men in her West Hollywood office that work in an entertainment industry related field, even the metroseuxals, disliked Justin Timberlake so vehemently. I told her it was because he's a prisspot and wannabe negro, but none of the good liber-al males would admit it. - 4/21/10, 11:01 PM
- Black Sea said...
Gerhart to the Vikings in the second round. Now Minnesota can claim that they have the best black running back and the best white running back in the league.


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Franchise opts to "go in different direction," says GM
More speed, but will Formula One be more of the same?
Actress Cara Santana has revealed she won't sleep with Jesse Metcalfe until...
Pond hockey-style game sure to bring excitement
Kate's Garden, the Readers' Choice Award winner for Best Floral Shop in...
Sweat streaming down my back and legs, the sun beating down on me mercilessly and chafing.
Oh ya, this is why I'm not a fan of summer running. Give me a -20 winter day any day over a 30 degree day in the summer.
It's not just the sweat or the shirtless old men on the trail as my eye candy, there's something mentally tougher about training in summer when everyone else is drinking and enjoying barbeques and you're sipping on water and going to bed early.
I headed out for my 16k training run along the trails in Thornhill yesterday a little worried about the fact that it was 21 degrees at 8:30 in the morning.
We started our run and I admit, my Saturday hydration routine wasn't up to snuff. It consisted of some water, G2 and coffee.
We started running and there was no mistaking it—it was hot.
I continued to run but then the nausea set in. It took me another couple of kilometres to figure it out but then I realized—I was dehydrated.
Marathoners almost always take short distance runs for granted. I'm no different. When you have a 16k run scheduled you don't have to be religious about your Saturday night meal or other little things you plan before long runs.
Sixteen kilometres is an easy long run when you are logging 32k by the end of your training, but as I learned yesterday it should be taken just as seriously.
The early signs of dehydration are nausea, extreme thirst and a dry mouth. Moderate symptoms are lightheadedness combined with all of the above.
I had pretty much everything within 8k.
Serious signs of dehydration are cramps, chills and disorientation.
Lucky for me, I didn't get to the disorientation part.
The best way to avoid this is to get all your liquids in, before and after a workout and also to start incorporating sport drinks to replace electroyltes.
In short, lesson learned—I am hydrating as I write this.
Until next time happy running.


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All in favor.


text:
Dean Wade tabbed Mr. Basketball in Kansas
Three-time state champion Dean Wade of St. John-Hudson is named Mr. Basketball in Kansas.
Three-time state champion Dean Wade of St. John-Hudson is named Mr. Basketball in Kansas.
Jody Lockhart of Jefferson West Elementary School in Meriden.
Every year, slightly more boy babies than girl babies are born worldwide. But back when sperm meets egg, the two sexes are conceived in equa…
The small southern Utah town of Hurricane might become a little quieter after a statue of a copper bull lost its most prominent private feat…
A Wichita man was sentenced to prison for stealing a wedding ring from a woman who was dying in her car at a drive-through restaurant.
The lawsuit filed Monday in St. Louis also names 20 unidentified St. Louis County officers.
Police say a driver apparently was following GPS navigation when he drove off the ramp to a demolished bridge that had been closed since 200…
Fatal church van crashes happen several times a year in the U.S. Here are some that have happened since 2010.
Behind the scenes, officials are seeking to expand fundraising through the National Park Foundation and bolster congressional support to imp…
The driver and seven passengers died. The 10 other passengers were taken to four hospitals.
Spokesman for the Missouri auditor's office left a note before he was found dead of an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound late Sunday, ab…
Republican Gov. Sam Brownback has proposed issuing $1.5 billion in bonds.
Comedy Central has named Trevor Noah, a 31-year-old comedian from South Africa, as Jon Stewart's replacement on "The Daily Show."
A McMuffin for dinner? It might happen, as McDonald's plans to test an all-day breakfast at some locations in the San Diego area starting ne…
Reports say Marshall is a top candidate for the vacant Crimson Tide basketball coaching job.
An FBI spokeswoman said the incident was not believed to be linked to terrorism.
Against a bill designed to protect religious groups on public college campuses.
For two brothers over the fatal shootings of four people in a snow-covered soccer field and for another man convicted of killing a couple.


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Related Publications
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Jewish Youth Philanthropy
By Sarah Gelman, Stefanie Zelkind
Jewish Communal Service Association of North America (JCSA), Spring 2009
Jewish youth philanthropy successfully engages Jewish teens in values-driven Jewish activities, develops and trains young people as strategic philanthropists, and provides much-needed support to nonprofit organizations. One author recounts her participation in the Jewish Youth Philanthropy Institute, noting that her experience introduced her to the world of philanthropy, provided her with significant leadership opportunities, and engaged her in Jewish life outside the synagogue. The second author advocates for the strengthening of such Jewish youth philanthropy programs, which ideally should teach participants basic philanthropic principles, Jewish values related to philanthropy, and how to address various needs in the United States and the world at large. By developing such youth philanthropy programs, the leaders of tomorrow can begin to exercise leadership today.
Topic: Youth Engagement, Philanthropy and Fundraising, Development, Youth, Communal Responsibility, Fundraising and Philanthropy, Jewish Organizations
Name of Publication: Journal of Jewish Communal Service
Editor: Gail Naron
Volume/Issue: Vol.84/no.1/2
Page Number(s): 121-125
Genre: Article
Coverage: United States
Language: English
Copyright Holder: Publisher
Copyright Information: Download for personal use, freely distribute link
Bibliographic Information:
Gelman, Sarah. Zelkind, Stefanie. Jewish Youth Philanthropy. Journal of Jewish Communal Service. Jewish Communal Service Association of North America (JCSA). Spring 2009:


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Follow SpendThrift Farm:
A yearling colt by Paddy O'Prado with "Kentucky Derby" stamped all over his pedigree, sold for $135,000 at the Saratoga New York Bred Preferred Sale on August 9th.
Catalogued as Hip 268 during the opening session of the two-day venue, the gray/roan yearling was purchased by Denlea Park from the consignment of Bluewater Sales.
The colt is from the first crop by millionaire Grade 1 winner and Kentucky Derby-third Paddy O'Prado. He is a half brother to Graded stakes winner Spice Island, dam of Kentucky Derby runner-up Ice Box. And his dam is both a daughter of a Kentucky Derby winner (Alysheba), and half-sister to a Kentucky Derby winner (Spend a Buck).
A five-time stakes winner of $1.7 million, Paddy O'Prado covered 143 mares his first year at stud. He stood the 2014 season at Spendthrift for $15,000 live foal.


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Thursday, October 16, 2008
North Berwick in the travel section of the New York Times. This seaside town is about half-an-hour's train ride outside of Edinburgh, and it's mentioned several times in The Explosionist. My Scottish grandparents lived in North Berwick, and it is strange to me to see a picture of the Bass Rock in the newspaper, it is such a familiar sight to me!
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Well, James Harden isn't going to end up on Michele Obama's hip-hop album.
But he's willing to poke a little fun at himself so this Foot Locker ad with Stephen Curry is pretty funny. And since it's August "pretty funny" qualifies as its own post.
Well, James Harden isn't going to end up on Michele Obama's hip-hop album.
But he's willing to poke a little fun at himself so this Foot Locker ad with Stephen Curry is pretty funny. And since it's August "pretty funny" qualifies as its own post.
Edmond Sumner has grown about five inches since high school.
That has helped turn the 6-foot-5 Xavier point guard into an intriguing NBA prospect — but also seemingly contributed to physical complications. Sumner missed nearly all of his freshman year with knee tendinitis. Then, after a promising second season and start to his third, he tore his ACL in January.
Still, he's entering the NBA draft.
Rick Broering of Musketeer Report:
Like with Duke's Harry Giles, medical testing will be huge with Sumner. But at least Giles ended the season on the court. Sumner might not be healthy at all during the pre-draft process.
Sumner looked like a borderline first-round pick before the injury. This probably pushes him into the second round.
His long strides provide impressive speed and quickness, and he's still shifty. Add quality court vision, and his ability to drive by defenders is even more valuable.
A 6-foot-8 wingspan and good lateral mobility also help make him a quality defender.
But it's also concerning that so much of his positives could be undermined by his knee issues, especially considering his unreliable jumper. If Sumner can't move like he did before getting hurt, I don't see how he sticks in the NBA.
If Sumner's knees check out, it's worth rolling the dice on him and hoping his jumper develops. He might even be OK without shooting range, though that'd lower his ceiling considerably.
Again, though, the first thing is examining his knees.
In an unexpected twist as the season winds down, the Cavaliers have stumbled — 8-11 since the All-Star break — while the Celtics have just kept on winning. Suddenly the Boston Celtics are on top of the East with the best record.
Can they stay on top through the rest of the season?
Does it matter to the Cavaliers?
I cover all this ground in the latest PBT Extra.
The Raiders are moving from Oakland to Las Vegas, and Draymond Green — whose Warriors also play in Oakland is not pleased.
Green, via Monte Poole of CSN Bay Area:
I wouldn't attend a game. I won't attend a game.
"And I'm not a diehard Raiders fan, but I support the city of Oakland. It ain't for me and I feel like all fans should feel that way. You just don't do that. Come on man, that's ridiculous."
"If I were the fans, I wouldn't attend a game for the next two years. But that's just me. That's ridiculous. No way I'd pay my money to attend a game."
Um, does Green realize the Warriors are also moving from Oakland (to a new arena in San Francisco)?
"It's one thing if you're moving them from Oakland to Fremont or something," Green said of the Raiders. "To Las Vegas?
OK, that's Fair. I am just being pedantic. I don't actually see moving across the bay as similar to the Raiders moving hundreds of miles away.
"That's like moving the Dallas Cowboys or moving the Packers," he said. "Moving the Raiders? You can move a lot of teams. Ain't many fan bases like the Raiders fan base. That's like moving the Boston Celtics from Boston or the Lakers from LA.
"You just don't move certain franchises with the fan base they have."
But seriously this time: Someone tell Green that the Raiders have already moved from Oakland to Los Angeles and back to Oakland — hundreds of miles each way and a ridiculous drive in traffic.
I get that Green — who grew up in Detroit Lions territory, roots for the Pittsburgh Steelers and is pictured above in a San Francisco 49ers jersey — just wants to connect with Oakland fans, but this argument is just intellectually dishonest.
Who should go No. 1 in the 2017 NBA draft?
A pair of Pac-12 freshmen point guards, Washington's Markelle Fultz and UCLA's Lonzo Ball, lead the discussion.
Fultz looks like the leading contender, but Ball doesn't buy into the conventional wisdom.
Ball, via ESPN:
"Markelle's a great player, but I feel I'm better than him," said Ball, who led the Bruins to a pair of blowout victories over Fultz's Huskies this season.
"I think I can lead a team better than him," Ball added. "Obviously he's a great scorer — he's a great player, so I'm not taking that away from him."
This will get spun into a discussion of Lonzo's father, LaVar Ball. But, without digging deeply, D'Angelo Russell, Shabazz Muhammad and Enes Kanter each claimed to be the best player in their respective drafts. Look further, and there are many more examples.
Reaching Lonzo Ball's level usually comes with supreme confidence. This is normal — not a cause for concern about the influence of his boastful dad.
And for what's it's worth, I'd favor Ball over Fultz right now, though there's still more information to gather in the draft process.


text:
As Edwards knows, Martinsville doesn't give up secrets easily
October 29, 2011, David Caraviello, NASCAR.com
MARTINSVILLE, Va. -- As the oldest active track on NASCAR's premier circuit, Martinsville Speedway is a place where change comes slowly, if at all. The configuration of the short track has essentially remained the same since founder H. Clay Earles carved it out of the soil in 1947. Trains still chug by on the railroad track behind the backstretch grandstand. The 4-inch high curbs guarding the inside of the turns have drawn the ire of drivers for generations. It's a place that demands slower speeds and higher degrees of patience, and allows for improvement at an incremental pace. Getting better at Martinsville takes years of race after race and lap after lap, small details building upon small details. There are no aha moments, no instances of sudden enlightenment, no overnight turnarounds. Some drivers get this quirky half-mile layout, others don't, and there isn't much in between. "Technology doesn't change a lot here, so I think those patterns stay consistent," said six-time track winner Jimmie Johnson. "Guys that run well continue to show strength, and the guys that struggle seem to typically do [so]." Series leader Carl Edwards falls squarely into that latter category. When he first came to Martinsville, as a driver in the Truck Series, everything seemed easy. He scored a pole in his second start, and recorded top-10 finishes with regularity. Then he moved to the Cup level, and Martinsville began to bare its teeth a little, and progress at this track began to reveal itself at a rate that can only be described as glacial. Martinsville is among Edwards' worst tracks in terms of performance, a place where his average finish is 16.9 and where his mettle as the championship favorite will be most tested. Edwards comes to Martinsville with a 14-point lead over Roush Fenway teammate Matt Kenseth in the standings, and with good tracks like Texas and Homestead-Miami looming in the distance. But first he has to get through Martinsville, and to the driver of the No. 99 car this quaint, historic place looms like a bear trap ready to spring shut. "It's been one of those tracks to me where, for the last few races I've come to it dreading it a little bit. But now I come to it just realizing, hey, I've got my work cut out for me. I have to perform well. I have to go out here and give everything I've got. And to me, to come out of here with a top-10 would be a success. So I don't dread it as much anymore. Now I just look at it like, hey, this is going to be a challenge," Edwards said. "The great thing is having those 14 points. If I would have come in here tied with [Johnson or Kevin Harvick], I'd be really nervous, because I'd say they'd have an advantage. I'd say they could do more damage to us in that situation. But having a little bit more of a cushion and based on our good fortune last week, I just look at it as a challenge. But we need to have a good run. We need to run well so that I can come back here with a little confidence instead of coming here and knowing I've got to battle." Last week at Talladega, Edwards played it safe and emerged with an 11th-place finish that kept his points lead intact. At Martinsville, though, strategy won't be enough. Edwards is leaning on Kenseth for information, given that his teammate recorded a sixth-place result here in the spring. Two of Edwards' past three races here have resulted in top-10 runs. But even those were a struggle, or the result of a little good luck. In NASCAR as in the stock market, past results are no guarantee of future success. But at Martinsville, local knowledge and a strong track record can go a long way. Consider that seven-time winner Jeff Gordon still relies on little tricks he picked up here almost two decades ago. "This is one of those tracks where there are very few light-bulb moments that go on here," Gordon said. "It's just all kinds of little tiny details that come together as a driver to help you get around this track. ... Back in the day I was able to test here, make a lot of laps, and start working on those details. And once I figured out a few fairly major things that I would call a bit of a light-bulb moment, it allowed me to give really good information to the team to figure out how to go faster. And that's why I say so few things have changed here over the years, because what I learned then and what we do as a team, from all the way back to 15, 18 years ago, can still sort of apply. This is that one place where having a good baseline or track record can continue to pay off for you." Edwards doesn't necessarily have that baseline. Despite his strong finish in the spring, neither does Kenseth, whose average finish here is 15.8. Given all that goes into winning at Martinsville, stark reversals of fortune are about as rare as an uneaten hot dog. "It takes such little increments of getting better that you can't go out there and change it all at once," said Harvick, who won here in April. "It's like you learn a little piece here, and a little piece there. Luckily for me, I've had teammates that have run well here, so we've adapted some of the setup stuff. You go back and you look at tape and you're trying to figure out what exactly they're doing with the same stuff to get better. I think that was just a progression over time. When you first come here, it's one of those places where you can really charge, but that's really probably not the right way to do it. It's so close here, and it's so competitive, and there are so many little things that it takes to make a good lap. You have to just kind of piece all that together." Harvick is proof of that, someone who grinded out one finish after another, picking up one little hint after another, until he broke through. No wonder so many of the usual suspects -- Gordon, Johnson, Denny Hamlin -- contend here again and again. Martinsville is a place that produces regular winning streaks, because so much about what it takes to win here is constant. "When aero and horsepower don't mean as much at a race track, and it's more about the way you technically drive around it ... those same techniques work," Hamlin said. "That's why you see continually the same guys running up front, I feel like, at this race track. It's their technique, and it's the way it works." For Martinsville's have-nots, though, every race can be a struggle. No one knows that more than Edwards, who will be happy to head for Texas with a top-10 finish, and with one of the biggest hurdles in his path to the championship cleared. "I don't mind driving here," Edwards said. "I think part of my problem here maybe is the way that I've practiced, and the way I want my car to feel in practice, because it just seems we start the race and it's just, I always struggle in the race. But a lot of times we finish practice and we go, OK, we're not that bad, everything's going to work. And then it turns into 500 laps of really, really tough work. We did have, I think in 2008 we came to this race and finished third or fourth. That was a spectacular run for us. Last year in the spring we had a great run going and had a flat tire. So we've had some flashes where I thought, OK, it's all working out. But most of the time I feel like it's a pretty big job to run well."Carl Edwards
Martinsville results
Year Spring Fall 2005 38 26 2006 16 12 2007 17 11 2008 9 3 2009 26 20 2010 8 8 2011 18 ?