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Trying to find out crust category
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Posts: 47
Trying to find out crust category
June 05, 2011, 02:33:38 PM »
Anyone from the SF Bay Area? I'm trying to see if Zachary's Pizza (deep dish) crust is considered a cracker type crust?? I posted a topic to recreate their crust in the chicago pizza forum, but maybe that is the wrong place? Their dough uses flour / water (50/50 approx) and very little oil, so is that what makes a crust cracker style?
Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #1 on:
June 05, 2011, 05:46:38 PM »
It may be a lower hydration dough, but I wouldn't think to call it cracker style. It's a stuffed pizza.
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #2 on:
June 05, 2011, 09:36:28 PM »
Yes it's definitely a stuffed pizza, and the crust is 50% flour and 50% water with very little oil (2t) according to this link. So what would you call that type crust? I'm trying to recreate the recipe and looking for people that may have already tried since I'm new to this forum. I've already posted in the chicago style forum but haven't gotten any replies, so I thought I'd post here in case the crust fell under the cracker style.
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #3 on:
June 05, 2011, 10:27:43 PM »
In order to analyze the dough recipe that is given in the article you referenced, I converted it to baker's percent format using the expanded dough calculating tool at
. For this purpose, I assumed that the 8 ounces of water is a volume measurement, not a weight measurement. I converted that volume of water to a weight of 8.15 ounces (technically, 8 fluid ounces of water weighs 8.345 ounces but most people weigh out less than that amount). Here is my estimation of the baker's percent version of the recipe:
Flour (100%):
Water (50.9375%):
Salt (2.4609%):
Olive Oil (1.98413%):
Sugar (1.7578%):
Total (158.13876%):
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs
231.05 g | 8.15 oz | 0.51 lbs
4.53 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
11.16 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
7.97 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
717.32 g | 25.3 oz | 1.58 lbs | TF = N/A
Based on the above, I would say that the style is a general style but where the dough is formed and used in a deep-dish style (actually a stuffed deep-dish style). The closest dough recipe that I can recall to the Zachary's recipe as given in the article you referenced is a recipe (which I dubbed "New Faithful") as described in Reply 33 at
. As you will see, the hydration for that recipe is 60%. However, an earlier version of that recipe (called "Old Faithful"), which is given at
, has a hydration of 51%. In a general sense, a basic pizza dough to make a flat pizza can have a hydration of between 50-65%. The Zachary's dough as described in the article falls on the low end of that range. The Zachary dough could be used to make a flat pizza but they choose instead to use the dough in a deep-dish stuffed style. From a categorization standpoint, I think the Zachary's pizza most closely mimics the Chicago deep-dish (stuffed) pizza. However, the crust of a Zachary's pizza is unlikely to have the biscuit-like quality of a typical Chicago deep-dish style because the Zachary dough contains only about 2% oil. So, there is little "shortening" effect on the gluten structure that large amounts of oil produce in a typical Chicago deep-dish style.
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #4 on:
June 06, 2011, 11:48:17 AM »
OK, thanks Pete-zza. I have a thread (link below) over in the chicago style forum but haven't gotten replies. In that thread I also tried to use the dough calculator and got the results below which are slightly different than yours. I also posted in the chicago forum about my first attempt last week of a DD pizza (used BTB's recipe for the Malnati pizza) and it came out great but as you say the dough is way more biscuity than Zachary's. I like both but guess I've gotten use to Zachary's and that's why I'm trying to recreate it (plus with less oil it's healthier - if you can call a pizza healthy
). I plan to buy a Zachary's (possibly this weekend) and post some close up pics of their crust, and then I guess I just have to try out a recipe and see how it goes. One last thing is the top crust on Zachary's stuffed pizza is very thin and it's not that crisp (like the bottom crust). Do some stuffed pizzas not prebake the top crust? It seems like Zachary's may put the cheese/tomatoes over the unbaked top crust and cook everything together?
Also with a crust like this will a small amount of oil, do you knead it more or still the gentle 60-90 seconds the Malnati recipe does? And then it rests overnight in the fridge?
So using the dough calculator and trying to get the same numbers as above the best I can do is below. I had stuffed pizza clicked and set to 33%, bowl residue 0%, and hydration 50%. I had to set the pan size to 12" (vs the article saying it was a 10" pizza) to get the flour/water anywhere near 16oz/8oz.
Flour (100%): 480.99 g | 16.97 oz | 1.06 lbs
Water (50%): 240.49 g | 8.48 oz | 0.53 lbs
IDY (1.25%): 6.01 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Salt (2%): 9.62 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%): 9.62 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.14 tsp | 0.71 tbsp
Sugar (1.75%): 8.42 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.11 tsp | 0.7 tbsp
Total (157%): 755.15 g | 26.64 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.125
Single Inner Ball: 567.78 g | 20.03 oz | 1.25 lbs
Single Outer Ball: 187.37 g | 6.61 oz | 0.41 lbs
Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 01:07:24 PM by jcg
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #5 on:
June 06, 2011, 01:45:28 PM »
I saw your post over at the Chicago board after I posted. However, before extrapolating from a 10" pan (which I assume is 2" in depth and straight-sided) to a like pan but 12" in diameter, I'd like to first determine the thickness factors for the inside and outside skins for the 10" size. For example, the article you referenced says to use about 2/3 of the total dough weight for the inside skin and the remaining approximately 1/3 of the total dough weight for the outside skin (the very thin one). The article also says that one should roll out the inside skin to at least 14" for the 10" pan. If we use 14" as the number, that means that the inside skin covers the bottom of the pan (10") and the sides of the pans (2"). So, 10" + 2" +2" = 14". My recollection is that when Boy Hits Car (Mike) and I designed the deep-dish dough calculating tool at
, we intended that the inside skin fit the pan in the desired manner without overlapping the pan at the top.
So, the Zachary's numbers for the inside skin seem to fit the deep-dish dough calculating tool as we intended. With this in mind, I used the deep-dish dough calculating tool to calculate the thickness factor for the inside skin. I used the baker's percents I earlier came up with together with the pan size and shape (10" straight sided). I assumed that the inside dough skin went up the full 2" depth of the pan. I entered values for the thickness factor until I got a total dough weight for the inside skin of 16.87 ounces (2/3 x 25.3 ounces). That value turned out to be 0.12637 and the dough formulation for the inside skin was as follows:
Flour (100%):
Water (50.9375%):
Salt (2.4609%):
Olive Oil (1.98413%):
Sugar (1.7578%):
Total (158.13876%):
302.48 g | 10.67 oz | 0.67 lbs
154.08 g | 5.43 oz | 0.34 lbs
3.02 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
7.44 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
6 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
5.32 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
478.34 g | 16.87 oz | 1.05 lbs | TF = 0.12637
Note: Assumes a 10" straight-sided pan with a depth of 2" and that the inside dough skin is pressed up to the top of the pan without overlapping; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.12637; no bowl residue compensation
A thickness factor of 0.12637 strikes me as a reasonable number although I can't say whether that is what Zachary's uses for the inside dough skin since I have never tried a Zachary's pizza.
For the outside skin, using the remaining 8.43 ounces of dough (25.3-16.87 = 8.43), and assuming a diameter for the skin of 10", I calculated a thickness factor of 8.43/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.107. In my opinion, that is far too high. If I had to guess, if the outside skin is to be almost diaphanous, you would perhaps want to use a thickness factor for the outside skin of something around 0.05-0.06. You might also make the skin larger so that it can be more easily secured to the inside skin. So, for example, for a 12" outside skin with a thickness factor of say, 0.055, the weight of that skin would be 3.14159 x 6 x 6 x 0.055 = 6.22 ounces. This is something that will require some experimentation to get right.
Now, if we fast forward to the 12" size pan you plan to use, and assuming that it is straight-sided and 2" deep, then the dough formulation for the inside skin might look something like this:
Flour (100%):
Water (50.9375%):
Salt (2.4609%):
Olive Oil (1.98413%):
Sugar (1.7578%):
Total (158.13876%):
405.68 g | 14.31 oz | 0.89 lbs
206.64 g | 7.29 oz | 0.46 lbs
4.05 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
9.98 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
8.05 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
7.13 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
641.54 g | 22.63 oz | 1.41 lbs | TF = 0.12637
Note: Assumes a 12" straight-sided pan with a depth of 2" and that the inside dough skin is pressed up to the top of the pan without overlapping; the thickness factor = 0.12637; no bowl residue compensation
For the outer skin, I would use a calculation such as described above. For example, you might use a 14" outside skin. Using 0.055 as a thickness factor, the weight for the outside skin would be 3.14159 x 7 x 7 x 0.055 = 8.47 ounces. For the ingredient quantities for the outside skin, I would use the expanded dough calculating tool at
. The Dough Weight option would be used with the 8.47 ounces (and the same baker's percents as before). That would give us the following:
Flour (100%):
Water (50.9375%):
Salt (2.4609%):
Olive Oil (1.98413%):
Sugar (1.7578%):
Total (158.13876%):
151.84 g | 5.36 oz | 0.33 lbs
77.35 g | 2.73 oz | 0.17 lbs
1.52 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
3.74 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
3.01 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
240.12 g | 8.47 oz | 0.53 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Assumes a 14" outside skin with a thickness factor of 0.055; no bowl residue compensation.
To get the total dough ball weight (including the dough for the outside and inside skins), you would add together the ingredient quantities for both skins when you make the dough. You would end up with a total dough batch weight of 31.10 ounces (22.63 + 8.47 = 31.10). If you are ever able to get the proportions for the inside and outside skins right, then you might be able to use the deep-dish dough calculating tool with the stuffed crust feature.
With respect to the stuffed crust feature of the deep-dish dough calculating tool, I'd like to mention that there is an error in that tool. I discussed same a while back at Reply 2 at
. In your case, I think you should try to get the thicknesses of the two skins where they should be and then reconstruct everything so as to allow you to use the deep-dish dough calculating tool with the stuffed feature for the entire dough. Of course, you should feel free to play around with your own sets of numbers in the tools to get to a better set of output values.
You raised a question about what goes above and below the outside skin. From the instructions given in the article you referenced, it seems that everything goes below the outside skin except for the sauce and grated Parmesan cheese. They go on top of the outside skin.
If you proceed, I will be interested in seeing how a hydration of around 51% works. That is a fairly dry dough. I mention this only because I tend to be suspicious of most recipes that I see in articles that are attributed to particular pizza places. I have seen so many errors and misstatements in the past, whether intentional or unintentional, that I am suspicious of just about all such recipes. In the case of Zachary's, I also wonder whether a V.P. and COO of the company is the best one to discuss their recipes.
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #6 on:
June 06, 2011, 04:19:55 PM »
Ok, first let me make a few clarifications. I have a 14" pan, and when I referenced the 12" pan it was in regards to getting what the dough making tool spit out to agree with the amounts listed in the article's recipe. If I used a 10" pan the amount of flour wasn't even close to what the article said, so I though maybe it was an error in the article, but again you last reply looks like you can get the amounts to work by varying the inner / outer thickness.
I also agree that the article may not be the right recipe, but it's the only starting point I had. If you google "Zachary's pizza recipe" its the only thing that comes up. Zachary's has a cult following in the Bay Area as it's the best chicago pizza we have around here (most places are thin crust style). They are very secretive and won't give out the recipe, so that one article is all I got.
Also I don't think the top crust is really very important. They make it very thin and when I originally dissected one of their pizzas to come up with the layering / ingredients you can barely discern that there even is a top crust. I surely don't taste it when I eat the pizza. So to make things simple lets assume the article is correct and the ingredients are for a 10" pizza, so a 14" bottom crust and a 10" top crust like you said. The article also says that 2/3 of the dough is for the bottom crust, and 1/3 is for the top crust. I'm going to leave the top crust out, and just multiple all the ingredients by 2/3 to get what I need for the bottom crust. So with a 50% hydration, 0 residue and .125 thickness I get:
Flour (100%): 305.26 g | 10.77 oz | 0.67 lbs
Water (50%): 152.63 g | 5.38 oz | 0.34 lbs
IDY (1%): 3.05 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
Salt (2%): 6.11 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.27 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%): 6.11 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
Total (155%): 473.15 g | 16.69 oz | 1.04 lbs | TF = 0.125
All the ingredients are a close match to the article's amounts x 2/3, so seems like a reasonable starting point. Do you agree. As I said I will try to buy a Zachary's this weekend and post close up shots of the crust.
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #7 on:
June 06, 2011, 04:31:42 PM »
Give it a try and see what you get. However, the results without the outside skin may be different because you won't have that skin serving as a barrier between the sauce and the fillings in the pizza so that the sauce doesn't permeate the rest of the pizza and alter the way that the fillings impact the palate (e.g., the fillings will not be mixed in with the tomatoes and, as a result, will retain their individual attributes). Maybe that is one of the reasons for using the outside skin even though you can't detect its presence. But, either way, the pizza should still taste good.
I believe that you forgot the sugar in your formulation.
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #8 on:
June 06, 2011, 05:02:11 PM »
Good point above the outside crust being a barrier and maybe that's why they do it. My first pizza I made last week didn't have the top layer and since I drained the tomato sauce (and it was pretty thick) I didn't have any issue with it leaking into the inner layers. Another thing I could try is to swap the inner layer of sliced provolone with the layer of grated mozzarella under the tomatoes. There would be a few gaps but the slices should act as a barrier. Also you are right I did forget the sugar, so the final recipe for a 10" crust would be pretty much matching the articles ingredients x 2/3. I'll change the pan to 14" for my version, and will report results back.
Flour (100%): 301.85 g | 10.65 oz | 0.67 lbs
Water (50%): 150.93 g | 5.32 oz | 0.33 lbs
IDY (1%): 3.02 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Salt (2%): 6.04 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.26 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%): 6.04 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
Sugar (1.75%): 5.28 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Total (156.75%): 473.15 g | 16.69 oz | 1.04 lbs | TF = 0.125
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #9 on:
June 10, 2011, 03:39:34 PM »
OK, I'm going to Zachary's tonight to pick up a pizza to dissect (for the 2nd time, first time I just figured out their layering and didn't really look at the crust). I will post a bunch of pictures and maybe someone with more pizza making experience than me can figure out if the articles recipe looks right. I am also going to try my first attempt and duplicating it so we will have a side to side comparison.
This is only my 2nd pizza attempt, so the 14" pan dough recipe is below (based on percentages we figured out on earlier posts). I made it late last night, and it seems like it came out OK so far. Measured the flour/salt, then let the ADY/sugar/part of water sit ~10 min till it was frothy on top, then added it to the flour, added the extra water and olive oil. Still it gently with a wooden spoon till it was basically mixed and then kneaded it for about 2 min. I know the recipe says they used a mixer for 3-5 minutes, but on the Malnati thread (where I made my first pizza) everyone said not to over knead and recommended only 60-90 seconds. Of course the Malnati dough clone has way more oil in it, so with a dough like this one should it be kneaded more than the 60-90 seconds? Lastly I put the dough in an oven that I got to 100 degrees and turned off, then let it double in size and then put it in the fridge. It didn't get into the fridge till about 11PM so it won't have 24 hours, so hopefully that won't be an issue??? Below is a pic of the dough after ~12 hours in the fridge. The article also has a comment about the flour being high protein, and I just used AP - is there a major difference?
Last question is should I continue this thread over in the Chicago style under my Zachary's clone post? Not sure if it should stay under cracker style or not? I can post a link on either thread saying to continue following it at the other thread.
Flour (100%): 522.03 g | 18.41 oz | 1.15 lbs
Water (50%): 261.01 g | 9.21 oz | 0.58 lbs
ADY (1%): 5.22 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Salt (2%): 10.44 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.18 tsp | 0.73 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%): 10.44 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.32 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
Sugar (1.75%): 9.14 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.29 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Total (156.75%): 818.28 g | 28.86 oz | 1.8 lbs | TF = 0.125
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Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 03:43:17 PM by jcg
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #10 on:
June 10, 2011, 07:27:53 PM »
I'll keep posting here until someone says to move to Chicago style.
OK, here are the pics of the Zachary's pizza I just picked up (stop drooling
). I ordered it half baked which they cook for about 25 minutes (this is a 12" medium) vs 30 minutes for the fully cooked one. I'm guessing the crust on the fully cooked would look a bit darker, and so will this one once it goes in the oven @ 450 for ~15 min. I measured the the height of the pizza and it's about 1.25" with the crust max being 1.5" (at the edge). With the dough calculator we assumed the crust went up the sides 2", but maybe it should only be 1.5", or does it shrink as it cooks?
Total pizza weight is 1700 grams. I asked what kind of cheese they use and they said it's a blend of mozzarella, parmesan and romano, so it doesn't have a layer of provolone which I thought it did. I also asked for the nutritional info and for a small 10" pizza with 6 servings it is: 175 grams/serving, 360 calories, 12g fat, 24mg cholesterol, 48g carbs and 16g protein. Their signature pizza is the stuffed spinach/mushroom which is pictured. The layers look to be bottom crust, mozzarella cheese, fresh spinach, thinly sliced fresh mushrooms, mozzarella cheese, fresh spinach, mushrooms, very thin top crust, tomato sauce.
I'll post pics of mine later after it's cooked. Any other photo requests or things you want measured/tested/etc before it's all gone? You can also see pics at their website below. After seeing pics of the crust any insights as to how it would be described? Also for anyone reading this thread that decides to go to Zachary's I recommend only getting their stuffed pizzas, as I think their thin crust pizzas aren't very good at all.
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Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 07:38:04 PM by jcg
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #11 on:
June 11, 2011, 09:22:01 AM »
I am out of town until about the middle of next week, so I won't be able to dwell on matters as much as usual. However, when I am trying to reverse engineer someone else's pizza, I try to follow their methods as closely as possible, at least until I see where changes may be needed to adapt the recipe from a commercial setting to a home setting. I also try as much as possible to make the same size pizza as produced by the recipe I am trying to replicate. Otherwise, I am likely to introduce too many new variables into the exercise. For example, I wouldn't use instructions for another type of pizza, even a similar one, as you did with the Malnati's instructions.
With respect to the type of flour to use, many Chicago deep-dish pizzas (maybe even most of them) use bread flour. That flour has a higher protein content than all-purpose flour but less than for a high-gluten flour. High-gluten flour is not common for a Chicago deep-dish style. Whether that holds true for a Zachary's pizza, which is unlikely to have a biscuit-like crust with minimal gluten development, I cannot say since I have never had a Zachary's pizza.
As far as the height of the pizza is concerned, I think it is normal to experience some shrinkage during baking. Maybe using something like 1 3/4" as the height of the dough in the pan might result in a baked crust with a maximum height of about 1 1/2". A few simple experiments should yield the best value to use. Remember, also, that there are normal variations in pizzas. Different workers can produce different pizzas, and order flow can also affect the results achieved.
For now, I would keep posting in this thread. In due course, I can move the thread to another board.
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #12 on:
June 11, 2011, 01:27:21 PM »
Thanks for the reply Pete-zza, and I guess will wait till you get back as not many others are replying (plus I won't be making another pizza for awhile as I've got lots of leftovers
). I'll keep the thread going here and make a link to it in my other thread on the Chicago style board. Attached are some pics of my first attempt at recreating Zachary's mushroom spinach. It came out good, but there are definitely some changes I need to make (mostly with the dough). First off for the sauce I used 1 can of 6:1 augmented with 1T honey, 1t Italian spices, and 2 large garlic cloves minced (~1T) and nuked with 1T olive oil for 30 seconds. The sauce was good but definitely much more garlicy than Zachary's. I like garlic but next time I will just use 1 small/med clove. Also Zachary's had much more sauce, so 1 28 oz can needs to be augmented with more tomatoes.
OK, so on to the all important crust. I've already given the recipe, and as you can see from the pics the bottom of the crust got much browner than the sides. Unfortunately I bought my pizza pan before finding this forum, and got a shiny aluminum pan vs the black ones that everyone prefers. I took the dough out of the fridge about 3 hours before making the pizza (it was in the fridge about 18 hours as I said I made the dough late the night before), and it was about 80 degrees here so the dough did rise again by about 1.5 times. When I rolled it out the dough had quite a bit of elasticity, and would pull back each time I rolled it. Took about 2 minutes before I got it to ~16" round and it stayed (see pic of dough in pan). I cooked the 14" pizza with the pan sitting on a pizza stone on the lowest rack in a 450 degree oven for 36 min (rotated 180 at 18 min).
You can also see that my dough became more bready and thicker than Zachary's (compare the side views). My bottom crust was a bit tough and you needed a knife to cut through it vs Zachary's could be cut with a fork (they were both about the same darkness). Zachary's crust was flakier and sweeter also. I added the sugar to a small amount of water with the ADY as I thought that helped it proof. The sugar still gets into the crust but does it make a big difference (ie. make the dough sweeter) if you add the sugar as a dry ingredient to the flour?
So I have absolutely no idea how to fix the dough. I'm guessing I need to use bread flour since the article said they use a high protein flour and you state that most Chicago pizzas use bread flour. Any brand people like? Then I'm guessing the sugar should be added to the dry ingredients to get that sweeter flavor. Does the elasticity of the dough tell you about it being flaky or tough? Do I need to knead it more or less? Should I leave it in the fridge for 2 days? Should I take it out right before using it so it doesn't rise a 2nd time? Your help is greatly appreciated!
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Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 01:29:13 PM by jcg
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #13 on:
June 12, 2011, 01:25:11 AM »
Aside from the thickness I'd say the qualities of the crumb LOOK pretty similar to the Zachary's pics you posted earlier. The air bubbles are of roughly the same size, shape, and frequency.
I've been deceived many times in regards to how thin I actually need to press the crust of my deep dish pizzas. It doesn't take much before there's TOO MUCH DOUGH!
Since I am no dough-chemist, I will defer comments on flakiness and sweetness to the other, more-experienced members on the forum, but I'll keep watching, as I've been looking to make my deep dishes a little flakier as well!
For sauce, I like to augment a 28oz can with a can of petite diced. If I'm going for a less chunky sauce, I'll even pulse it in a processor a few times to break it down a little bit.
Overall, looks pretty dang good! How'd it taste? Did you have any moisture issues with the spinach?
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #14 on:
June 12, 2011, 09:12:32 AM »
With respect to the sugar, dissolving it in the water, as instructed in the recipe you referenced, will help distribute the sugar more uniformly throughout the dough, but I don't think the difference will be material. That is, I don't think that adding the sugar to the flour will make the crust materially sweeter, if at all. One would have to conduct multiple side-by-side experiments to see if a difference is detected. I have made many pizza doughs with the same percent sugar and in some cases the crusts tasted sweeter than others. I would not trust my palate on these matters. Your palate is not a reliable technical instrument.
On the matter of the crust and its toughness, I would want to know how Zachary's prepares its doughs. If Zachary's is using 50% hydration, then it is highly doubtful, at least in my opinion, that they are rolling the doughs out by hand. That would be tedious and not conducive to volume production (or else they would have to make a lot of skins in advance and possibly use a proofer with temperature and humidity control to hold the skins in pans pending orders). For commercial volumes, it is quite possible that Zachary's is using a commercial roller or sheeter, with only a single or double pass through the machine. Giordano's, which also makes stuffed pizzas, uses commercial rolling equipment. It is also possible that Zachary's is using some kind of folding technique to get a layered effect that helps produce a flakier crust. They might even use a bit of flour between the layers to keep them separate. But it might also be that they do no layering at all if they are using commercial rollers because such rollers are not as hard on dough skins as a rolling pin in a home environment.
In your case where you used a rolling pin, I suspect that you overworked the dough skin and that that was responsible for the toughness. What I might suggest is that you allow the dough to warm up before rolling. The method that I have used is to employ a proofing box to do that warm-up. The method is described in Reply 16 at
. I would go directly from rolling to the pan so that the dough does not have a chance to rise again.
With respect to the type of flour used for the Chicago deep-dish style, one of the most popular flours for the Chicago deep-dish style is a flour known as Hecker's or Ceresota bread flour. The two flours are identical, just sold under different names. If the folks who started Zachary's came from the Chicago area, they would certainly be familiar with the Hecker's/Ceresota flours. Whether they would use either flour in their CA stores is not known. With only three store locations, Zachary's has many options in terms of sources for their flours. Using Hecker's or Ceresota flours would be one of them, although they operate in parts of the county east of Chicago. However, Hecker's/Ceresota does have a foodservice division and may ship out west also.
Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 07:56:51 PM by Pete-zza
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #15 on:
June 12, 2011, 11:09:35 AM »
Clive, the pizza tasted very good but as I said the crust is the main issue to try and change to get it to be more like Zachary's. This is my 2nd mushroom/spinach pizza (the other one is described in the Malnati thread) and there is no issue with using fresh spinach and fresh mushrooms (sliced very thinly with a mandoline). You can see from the pics of the Zachary pizza that they use fresh spinach and mushrooms too. Zachary's uses a top crust which I did not do, but once I master the bottom layer crust I may attempt. I think the key is the spinach doesn't really cook all the way through like it would in a pan, and is cooked just to the wilting stage.
As for the dough. I guess we won't worry about the sugar, and how it gets incorporated. The sweetness thing could just be because there was more of my dough as it was thicker, so the breadiness of it took away from the sweetness (who knows). I don't know how Zachary's makes their dough, but I can ask next time I'm there to see if they will tell me. As I mentioned I did warm up the dough for 3 hours before rolling it, and it was about 80 degrees here so the dough actually got a small 2nd rise. I was thinking this might be one of the issues?? As for rolling it for too long being the reason the bottom was tough that is entirely possible, but the reason I had to roll it so much was because the dough was so elastic. Is a dough supposed to be real elastic like that? What makes it elastic, more kneading or less kneading, hydration %? As I said I didn't put my dough in a mixer like the original article said, but just hand needed it for 2 minutes? Does using a bread flour make the dough rise more or less, does it make it more or less elastic? Do you usually need to knead a bread dough more or less than AP? I guess I'm looking for things I can do that will make the dough not puff up as much when it's cooked. So next attempt I try:
1. Use bread flour
2. Knead more or less at first step?
3. Should I change the hydration from 50%, and if so more or less?
4. Should I let the dough stay in the fridge 2 days vs 1 day?
5. When I take it out of the fridge should I take it out maybe only 1.5 hours prior so it doesn't get a 2nd rise?
6. Other?
PS: I know appreciate how much easier it is to make a Malnati type dough. That dough has so much oil in it you just dropped it into the pan and pressed it out with your fingers.
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #16 on:
June 14, 2011, 10:28:11 AM »
My best advice is to try to follow the recipe and instructions as closely as possible, including the fermentation period. That will be the only way to know if the recipe and procedures are authentic or at least adapted to a home environment. I have a natural distrust of all recipes that are held out by famous pizza operators to be authentic but the only way to assess this issue is to make the pizzas exactly as described or as closely as possible. If you are making a larger pizza than the recipe calls for, you may need a somewhat longer knead time but not so much as to toughen the dough. Other possible changes may suggest themselves once you see what practicing the recipe as given produces in the way of results. I can't tell you how many recipes that I have seen that turn out to be duds. I think that is because they dumb down or otherwise modify the recipes so that just about anyone can follow the recipes using easy to get ingredients, home ovens, etc.
Elasticity is a function of several possible factors. A high protein flour will have a tendency to increased elasticity than a weaker flour. A low hydration value can also yield a more elastic dough. Overkneading can also make a dough tough and harder to roll out. Any combination of these factors will aggravate the situation. If Zachary's is using a dough roller or sheeter of some sort, they may avoid all of these issues. I suggested warming up the dough before rolling as a way of emulating a commercial roller or sheeter. In your case, a room temperature of around 80 degrees F may not be high enough. I personally would shoot for something of around 100-110 degrees F. Doing this may completely negate the need to let the dough warm up (temper) before using. If that approach doesn't work, then we will have to consider other alternatives.
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Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #17 on:
June 14, 2011, 12:10:08 PM »
OK, I'll try all those steps for my next attempt (probably not for a couple weeks), and report the results back with more pics. If I decide to buy a Zachary's again to compare, I'll also see if I can find out if they use a sheeter.
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Posts: 47
Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #18 on:
June 28, 2011, 05:31:14 PM »
OK, well I'm back for another attempt. In an attempt to compare more dough recipes I've made 2 doughs for one 9" pizza (each set to .5 dough balls). I followed the same recipe for dough #1 as my last recipe posted above, but I won't be taking it out of the refrig as early as last time, plus I plan to warm it up in a 100% oven (as suggested) vs just letting it sit out. For dough #2 I've changed the water to 55%, ADY 1%, salt 2%, olive oil 5% and sugar 3%. This dough has a higher total hydration (water + oil) of 60% (quite similar to "New Faithful" mentioned earlier in this thread, and I should note it was easier to work than dough #1) vs 52% for the original (plus more sugar so should be a bit sweeter as last time I though Zachary's dough had a sweeter taste). The dough balls were too small to use a mixer, so both were mixed / kneaded by hand for similar amounts of time. I'll try to roll / shape them into half circles and pinch a seam at the center. Both doughs are currently rising (then off to the fridge), and I'll post results tomorrow night with a picture of the pizza and a comparison of the two doughs (plus I'll probably buy another Zachary's for a taste comparison again).
Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 08:30:37 PM by jcg
Registered User
Posts: 47
Re: Trying to find out crust category
Reply #19 on:
June 29, 2011, 08:52:50 PM »
OK, getting ready to make tonight's pizza to see how the crusts in the last post come out, and I'll post pics later. I did end up going to Zachary's and got 2 of their small pizzas and they are in the attached pictures. The top one is a spinach/mushroom with a whole wheat crust (hope to make one of those in the future), and the bottom one is a Mediterranean with regular crust (the one I'm currently trying to emulate).
I also emailed Zachary's about the sheeter / roller and they were kind enough to reply and say they use a roller. Also when I picked up the pizzas I saw them making other ones in the kitchen and I saw them take a dough ball (just sitting out at room temp) and put in through the roller. They make 2 passes with the first one coming out a bit elongated, and then they rotate it 90 degrees and after the 2nd pass they have a perfect circular crust. When they put it into the pan it over hung the edges by quite a bit. Not only did it go up the inside 2", but it overhung and went down the outside edge of the pan another 2". So they trimmed off about a 3" piece, so maybe that is why the original recipe from the article seemed to make way too much dough according to the dough calculator?? Lastly the 10" pizza cooks for ~25 minutes if that helps.
Lastly the 2nd picture is of the dough after I cut off an outside edge piece and then crunched it in my hands. You can see there are lots of fine crumbs and then a few bready? pieces. I've had a hard time with adjectives to describe the dough since I'm not a baker, so maybe this will be of some help??? Anyways Pete does this extra bit of info help in figuring things out?
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LA JOLLA — It turns out that even those ripe, red, fragrant local strawberries that help make May farmers' markets so seductive can have, as beauty sometimes does, sad tales to tell. A new opera's undercover job is to taste the flavor of that sadness.
And after seeing the world premiere Wednesday night at UC San Diego of "Cuatro Corridos," an intensely disturbing operatic investigation into sex trafficking around the strawberry farms of San Diego, I was more tempted by bananas than strawberries for breakfast the next morning, even though they may have their own hidden tragedies.
In "Cuatro Corridos" ("Four Corridos"), four composers (two Mexican, one Chinese, one American) imagine the inner lives of four women intertwined in a case here several years ago, when those farms became known as the "Fields of Love." For years, three brothers kidnapped Mexican women and forced them to serve as prostitutes for the illegal migrant workers.
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The libretto's style is written in the verse structure of the narrative Mexican corrido song form. Coincidentally, Long Beach Opera recently presented the Mexican composer Gabriela Ortiz's "Camelia la Tejana," which takes its subject matter from kidnapping and drug trafficking across the border and is inspired by a popular corrido. But Volpi's verse is more experimentally poetic and as alarmingly ripe in its imagery as, well, May strawberries.
The first woman, Azucena, learns of men's cruelty when she is dragged to California, tied up, pricked, punctured and left reeking "of spittle, of semen, of disenchantment." Herbert Vázquez's score fractures Mexican folk styles of their enchantment.
Dalia, whose skin was once "soft as satin" but has grown wrinkled and ugly, begins by declaring: "I will go to hell." Arlene Sierra's multilayered music sends her there with violent percussion attacks and anguished vocal lines. A collaborator with the Salazar Juárez brothers, Dalia is as tragically disenchanted a figure as her victims. She serves her husband, survives, and understands damnation.
Rose is a cop. She announces in unadorned language the San Diego police arrest of the brothers. "Do you ask yourselves, gentlemen," she asks the press, "what will happen to these señoritas, illegal, without their papers, who were freed today?"
Lei Liang underscores this with unexpectedly subtle and colorful instrumental textures and focused drumbeats that use powerful eloquence to reveal, astonishingly and brilliantly, an unrelenting tragedy with no resolution.
Finally, Violetta, another prostitute, tells of her friend Iris, slender and not yet 20, sent by her father to "a land of milk and honey … where dollars grow on trees." Iris' first rape was in the car even before she reached the border. The opera's last line: "I wither from sadness / a flower without dew."
Hilda Paredes provides sorrowful music here that is almost too much. She, like the other composers, is a substantial Modernist; her style is complex and difficult. But she knows how to drain substance away too, leaving meaningful emptiness. Narucki, commandingly theatrical throughout, succumbed in the end to the full weight of tragedy.
The production had a lot of parts, including a "border wall" with projections and graphics, but mostly stayed out of the way of the terrible tales told. But the instrumentalists (guitarist Pablo Gómez, pianist Aleck Karis and percussionist Steven Schick) were alive to every nuance.
UCSD has taken "Cuatro Corridos" seriously with panel discussions on sex trafficking the day after the premiere and repeat performances Friday and Saturday nights.

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DENVER (AP) Peyton Manning threw for three touchdowns and Von Miller had three sacks, as the Denver Broncos defeated the San Diego Chargers 30-23 on Sunday to take a three-game lead in the AFC West.
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The Balti House restaurant serves authentic Indian cuisine prepared by a team of talented and experienced chefs. The menu is filled with a wide range...
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Liberty News
Jennings, former LU running back, fairs well at NFL Combine
Rashad Jennings began his quest to play professional football at the highest level last week, as the former Flames running back showcased his abilities at the annual NFL Combine at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis, Ind.
The scouting combine serves as a "job fair" for prospective NFL players. Over a six-day period, players are put through a series of drills, tests and interviews before more than 600 NFL personnel, which includes head coaches, general managers and player talent scouts.
Competing against 32 of the nation's best collegiate rushers, Jennings stood out as a top performer in various combine drills, such as the bench press, broad jump, 3-cone drill, 20-yard shuttle and the 60-yard shuttle. In the bench press, Liberty's leading rusher ranked second among all participating running backs, putting up 29 repetitions. Jennings also posted an impressive time in the 60-yard shuttle, clocking in at 11.46 seconds. The showing ranked him second among running backs, finishing behind University of Connecticut's Donald Brown.
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Vehicle Trim
Vehicle Body
4x4 Tradesman 2dr Regular Cab 8 ft. LB Pickup
Exterior Color Description
Bright Silver Clearcoat Metallic
Transmission Type
6-Speed Automatic
Rear Wheels
Fuel Type
Vehicle Options
- Rear View Camera
- Multi-Function Display
- Stability Control
- Rear View Monitor In Mirror
- Roll Stability Control
- Crumple Zones Front
- Towing And Hauling Trailer Hitch: Class V
- Airbags - Front - Side
- Airbags - Front - Side Curtain
- Cruise Control
- Audio System 6 Speakers
- Towing And Hauling Trailer Wiring: 4-Pin
- Towing And Hauling Trailer Wiring: 7-Pin
- ABS Brakes (4-Wheel)
- Drivetrain 4WD Type: Part Time
- Audio Auxiliary Input: USB
- Air Conditioning - Front
- Drivetrain Transfer Case: Manual Hi-Lo Gear Selection
- Traction Control With Trailer Stability Assist
- Seats Front Seat Type: 40-20-40 Split Bench
- Rear Brakes Ventilated Disc
- Windows Front Wipers: Variable Intermittent
- Windows Privacy Glass
- Braking Assist
- Braking assist hill start assist
- Airbags - Front - Dual
- Front Brakes Ventilated Disc
- Power Brakes
- Security Engine Immobilizer
- Audio Auxiliary Input: Jack
- Front 12V Power Outlet(s)
- Windows Solar-Tinted Glass
- Child Seat Anchors LATCH System
- Front Suspension Type: Multi-Link
- Headlights Auto On/Off
- Spare Tire Fullsize
- Airbags - Passenger - Deactivation Switch
- Audio - Radio: AM/FM
- Electronic Brakeforce Distribution
- Auxilliary Transmission Fluid Cooler
- Power Steering
- Engine Alternator: 160 Amps
- Headlights Auto Delay Off
- External Temperature Display
- Fuel Economy Display MPG
- Fuel Economy Display Range
- Traction Control
- Cargo Bed Light
- Front Suspension Classification: Solid Live Axle
- Inside Rearview Mirror Manual Day/Night
- Seatbelts Emergency Locking Retractors: Front
- Seatbelts Seatbelt Force Limiters: Front
- Seatbelts Seatbelt Pretensioners: Front
- Steering Wheel Tilt-Adjustable
- Tachometer
- Warnings And Reminders Maintenance Reminder
- Suspension Stabilizer Bar(s): Front
- Floor Material Rubber
- Steering Wheel Mounted Controls Cruise Controls
- Steering Wheel Mounted Controls Multi-Function Screen Controls
- Air Conditioning - Front - Single Zone
- Armrests - Front Center
- Audio - Speed Sensitive Volume Control
- Exterior Mirrors Manual Folding
- Seatbelts Seatbelt Warning Sensor: Driver And Passenger
- Assist Handle Front
- Audio - Antenna: Mast
- Body Side Reinforcements Side Impact Door Beams
- Clock
- Digital Odometer
- Driver Seat Manual Adjustments: 4
- Driver Seat Manual Adjustments: Recline
- Energy Absorbing Steering Column
- Exterior Mirrors Manual
- Front Headrests Adjustable
- Front Seatbelts: 3-Point
- Headlights Halogen
- Headlights Quad Headlights
- Number Of Front Headrests 2
- Passenger Seat Manual Adjustments: 4
- Passenger Seat Manual Adjustments: Recline
- Rolling Code Security Key
- Seats Vinyl Upholstery
- Storage Organizer
- Storage Door Pockets
- Sun Visors
- Suspension Front Shock Type: Gas Shock Absorbers
- Suspension Front Spring Type: Coil Springs
- Suspension Rear Coil Springs
- Suspension Rear Gas Shock Absorbers
- Tailgate Removable
- Warnings And Reminders Low Fuel Level
- Warnings And Reminders Low Oil Level
- View All
|Call For Pricing
Pricing Details
|Dealer Discount
|- $2,542
|Total Savings
|Additional Upfit Cost
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text:
Thane (district) : Thane : Kalyan
== [[Media:'''Kalyan''' (Marathi: कल्याण) is a city in the [[Thane]] district of [[Maharashtra]], effectively a suburb of [[Mumbai]]. Kalyan is historical story with foot-touch of shivaji Maharaj and many more leaders. You will find peoples are in hurry but still they help those who are in needed. Tourism wise there are very few places are in Kalyan. the places which are best for tourism are not getting attention by municipality of kalyan. Kalyan has many tourist places but most are them are un-known or dirty/not maintained because of Kalyans municipality. If kalyans leaders pay attention to those places defiantly Kalyan will be best tourist spot in thane district.''' </nowiki>]] ==
Get in
By plane
The nearest airport is the Chhatrapati Shivaji International Airport in Mumbai. Once you get off, you will need to take a taxi or hire a car. The distance to Thane is around 56 kilometers , the drive can take between 60 to 90 minutes depending on the traffic.
By train
The best way to get to Kalyan from Mumbai using public transport is to take the local train service. If you are coming from the airport, take an auto-rickshaw to Kurla station which is served by the Central Railway and buy a ticket to Kalyan. You need to take a downside train towards Karjat or Kasara which would reach Kalyan in around 45 - 55 minutes.This method is recommended only if you are adventurous at heart and are not carrying any luggage.
Kalyan is also well served by long distance trains, almost all of which stop at Kalyan station en route Mumbai.
By car
Toll gate while entering Kalyan via Eastern express highway(Bhiwandi Bypass).
A main roads enter the city from Bhiwandi Bypass (A Bypass on National highway 3 connecting Mumbai and Nashik).There is a Toll gate near Kon village which is the entrance to Kalyan city.
Get around
By Bus - Travelling in city by bus in not a good idea because buses in Kalyan are usually crowded and does not connect whole part of Kalyan. Kalyan has it's own bus depot. Most important bus depot is Kalyans bus depot. The buses for long routes as well as short routes are available here.
By Train - Local tains are the best medium to travel around Kalyan as they are reliant, time consuming and well connected. To travel places like titwala, ambernath, Karjat, Thane, etc catch train from Kalyan. On central line of railway Kalyan assumes to be most important station because all the trains stops here. Kalyan is a hub for railways.
By Rickshaw - If you are willing to travel to many places of Kalyan then choose rickshaw as are very easily available. Nearby places to roam around are - Titwala (Ganapati temple) Ambernath (Shiv mandir) Shahad (Birla mandir/temple) Bhivpuri (Waterfall) etc.
All these places need more attention of municipalty. Cleanness & promotion to these places is required.
Around Kalyan...
Relax garden is one of the best hotel in town for dinner. 4 km away from station gives you best evening with fine dinner. Relax garden is now granded 3 star hotel. http://relaxgardennx.com/contact.htm for booking or further info
but if you are searching for something standerd & classy then must visit hotel `Prasad'. 3 & half star rated with high brand infrastructure and hospitality, service. Prasad hotel is situated near to Katemanivli. to reach here catch the auto from kolsewadi or station (Kolsewadi will be better). Kolhapuri bhaji is most tasty food here. If you are fast foody then go to Metro Junction mall anytime. 3r level of mall is reserve for food court. Hang out with friends and enjoy your food.
There are many lodges near the railway station, but there is a lack of decent hotels. Kalyan has 2-3 nice hotels like the 3 star Raja hotel in the Ahilyabai Chowk near municipal corporation office and Hotel Sagar International which is close to Kalyan railway station, with a lounge and bar with.
Stay Safe
Kalyan is usually safe city for womens too. Lovers or couples must be careful while exposing your love. Public places are not for you in Kalyan. Travelling in night is little dangerous as most of the part is covered with thieves and drunker. Kalyan police is quite helper but there is no security for womens at night. Many bars goes on till mid night so please be careful by traveling at night. Kalyan peoples are helpful and very friendly. don't worry during travelling. common sense during traveling is must.
Get out


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Hi everyone, welcome to "Gracious Giftings". Effective 1/1/2016 I am proud to represent Frantic Stamper as their first ever Design Team Emeritus member. I won't be posting as often, but want to thank you all for your support and friendships..... I have been crafting all my life! It is amazing to see the transition over the years. I would describe my style as Vintage Bling! My motto is "more is better". Thanks for stopping by......
Monday, December 2, 2013
2 comments:
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|Thread Tools
|2013-07-07, 09:55
|Link #41
Season 3
Join Date: May 2013
Location: California
But yes, the first part of what you said is very true. I think he does appear to be conflicted about what is happening here. I understand now what you meant by that. I thought you were saying he was just being mean, not trying to evoke an emotional response. I agree with what you say in that case. That made it much more clear
|2013-09-08, 15:24
|Link #42
Season 3
Join Date: May 2013
Location: California
This is moved from the railgun s episode 20 discussion thread. Let me clarify/expand on what Ilidsor/AdmirerofSatenRuiko are saying (even though I may be wrong).
The Sisters Arc was so popular that Mikoto became a well-liked character. So as a result they wanted to spin-off of Kuroko, but last minute changed it to one of Misaka. This became the railgun franchise. After some time, the show became very different from how it was originally envisioned as seen in the first season, but then it actually turned out that the author Kamachi considered the side-story to be of equal importance as the main story. At this point in time, the second season of Railgun talked about the sisters, the original reason "railgun" was conceived as a manga in the first place.
I will argue however that since I'm not positive the sisters arc existed when Railgun was originally adapted for its first season, it might not be the reason the anime exists for railgun, just the manga. So it can be argued that it isn't absolutely essential to the anime, but that if the anime wants to be a consistent adaptation to the manga then it should also include the sisters arc.
The problem arises from anime-only-viewers who want a continuation of themes from the first season and manga readers who want to have an anime of the series that they are reading. When creating the anime, J.C. staff has to cater to both of these groups because in the end, the anime is supposed to adapt the manga. However, all anime clearly have the interpretation of the directors inputted into them in at least some minor way so that the anime has its own original flavor. That's what is happening here.
With season one of the anime, the anime attracted a lot of fans that enjoyed the Director's way of interpreting the material in order to make the series more popular.
However, now the series has 2 completely different aspects and therefore relies on 2 different cours per season to compromise this problem.
In this case, it becomes unclear which way the series should be adapted, if it should actually rather be adapted one way over the other.
IMO, many will prefer one way over the other, but I think that this problem is clearly unresolveable so people are just going to keep on fighting about it which is why this argument isn't really productive at this point at all.
If railgun changes, its popularity will drop. If railgun does not change, it does not adapt the original material like it was supposed to. This makes the entire scenario very confusing.
And both groups in their opinions are technically in the right so this becomes a confusing problem.
|2013-09-08, 15:30
|Link #43
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Look, I'm not trying to have an argument about which part of the series is the best or whatever I'm just pointed out that the Sisters arc cannot be skipped no matter which side you prefer because the events of it are so integral to future events, and Misaka's character.
|2013-09-08, 22:02
|Link #44
Season 3
Join Date: May 2013
Location: California
As to the first thing you said, Kamachi never really said that (don't worry I'm not trying to argue with you ) however the fact that the accelerator manga, railgun manga, index-nichijou manga, and index manga all seem to be existent and kamachi is focusing on different things in each of these mangas, I just kind of assumed that Kamachi is using the normal index manga to adapt the LNs and everything else to add onto the story and to enhance the world. This is why I feel like he considers the other parts of the story just as important in terms of world-building, considering the magnitude of some of arcs we have seen in railgun already... like this silent party arc which seems to have some implications on later things in the franchise. (it doesn't have to bad though...)
Anyway, it's an opinion, but I think Kamachi doesn't think railgun is that silly anymore considering that he is using it to introduce characters very early on like ITEM and Shokuhou Misaki. But I digress and might be totally wrong as to how he feels about it (just putting that out there).
I'm not trying to argue, I was just trying to say what I had written above.
|2013-09-08, 22:09
|Link #45
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Recife
ITEM was introduced way earlier than Railgun.
|2013-09-08, 22:10
|Link #46
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Also as a side note ITEM was introduced in the Index LNs way before they appeared in the Railgun manga
EDIT: Last part was ninja'd
|2013-09-08, 22:19
|Link #47
Season 3
Join Date: May 2013
Location: California
I meant that ITEM was introduced pretty early on in the railgun manga. ITEM will probably appear much later in the Index manga (does that make sense?) What I'm saying is that ITEM was drawn in a manga for the first time in Railgun rather than Index. ITEM was also first animated in Railgun before Index. I see it as a way to provide more development for the characters and to get them animated earlier for him/fanbase/ everyone involved.
I meant Kamachi controls pretty well what goes in the manga, but as for the anime he can only provide a general outline of what to cover and then the interpretation of the people directing/producing it also goes into developing the work. It's annoying to me and you because Kamachi's representation of the world is being changed to match the interpretation of the animation staff, but Kamachi's interpretation is annoying to fans of railgun who watched it just because of the different interpretation of J.C. staff. That's kind of what I mean.
So I was agreeing with fallenhero, both of you have reasons to be right, but since I'm an LN reader I was leaning more strongly to how you feel about what you would hope/expect from an adaptation of railgun into anime. *sigh* I suck at explanations
I originally thought that Railgun was founded as a way to give good backstory to other less-well developed Index characters. But have since changed my mind slightly.
|2013-09-28, 07:54
|Link #48
Staring into your soul
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 27
It's confirmed in later volumes that the Sisters plan was just a ruse but that wasn't intended to explain anything. It was just a twist added in. We were still meant to believe that stopping the experiment relied on an ambiguous plot device for two whole volumes.
Besides, there's nothing to suggest Crowley actually stopped the experiments then. He planned to make it fail all along but he only actually terminated it after the Three Stories arc, not in the Sisters arc. Touma was still the one who stopped it then (thanks to an ambiguous plot device).
And in any case it still doesn't matter. If you can wait two volumes for an answer then people have no right to bitch about plot holes they think have occurred before the story even ends.
Last edited by Haak; 2013-09-28 at 12:02.
|2013-09-28, 18:16
|Link #51
Season 3
Join Date: May 2013
Location: California
Notice that is two sentences, not one sentence.
I felt like the Sisters arc was well-done but it had no extra scenes apart from the manga or LNs... I mean it literally had no longer battle scenes because the arc had to be condensed sadly. This made me at least somewhat disappointed. Though since I didn't consider STUDY as part of AC's darkness it wasn't actually a problem. STUDY-> AC Darkness as Amai-> Battle Royale (if you don't know what this is, ignore the comparison).
Anyway, this arc didn't ruin my impression of AC's darkness because there was only one actual character from the darkness other than Accelerator in this entire arc: Gensei
|Thread Tools


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May 1, 2007
WORCESTER, Mass. - The New England Women's and Men's Athletic Conference announced its postseason awards for baseball on Tuesday with MIT centerfielder Jason Witzberger earning First Team All-Conference honors. The Engineers also secured the inaugural NEWMAC sportsmanship award as voted on by the players of each team. It is awared to the team that most closely demonstrates the ideals of the NEWMAC and its Code of Conduct.
Witzberger batted an astounding .478 in league play en route to All-Conference accolades. MIT's senior captain was named to the 2006 ESPN The Magazine Academic All-America team and has served as one of the greatest players in MIT lore.
Although the Cardinal and Gray still have a few weeks left on the season slate, Witzberger has already shattered the Institute record for career stolen bases and he is on pace to set new school marks for career batting average and career on-base percentage. A converted lead-off hitter, Witz admirably moved to the three-hole this year and helped lead the Engineers to a third-place finish in the NEWMAC standings.
For the second straight season, Wheaton senior catcher Adam Laplante was named the NEWMAC Baseball Player of the Year and Wheaton head coach Eric Podbelski was named NEWMAC Coach of the Year as the conference champion Lyons took three of the four major awards. Wheaton junior pitcher Chris McDonough was named Pitcher of the Year while Babson freshman outfielder Peter O'Toole earned Rookie of the Year honors.


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Shepherd Survival Supply is a family-owned Survival Kit and Supply company. Our main offerings include: Survival Packages, Every Day Carry Kits, Emergency Water Filters, Long Term Food Storage, First Aid Kits, Survival Tools, and Radiation Survival Supplies, including the popular Nukalert and RADsticker, for emergency and disaster preparedness.
Common Tags: Nuclear Survival Kits, Gear, Personal Radiation Detectors, Equipment, Thyrosafe, Potassium Iodide, RADSticker, Readi Mask, Monitoring Devices, Emergency Kit, Apocalypse, Meter, Gear, Where to Buy, Handheld


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Maria's Smart $6100 Kitchen Facelift
We love seeing our readers' freshened-up kitchens! Today's kitchen renovation story comes from Maria in Vancouver, BC. Her kitchen renovation is really inspiring, as it falls in that challenging in-between category — she wanted to do more than just paint her cabinets and hang some artwork (a $200 job), but she didn't have the budget for a full gut renovation of her old and challenging kitchen. So she worked a modest, realistic budget, and this plus some elbow grease got her a serious amount of upgrade!
Read on to see her kitchen before the upgrade, and for all the details of what she did, including a budget breakdown.
Maria's Kitchen Story
We had been in our house for 2 years and our inefficient kitchen was becoming more and more of a thorn in my side. I love to cook and entertain and my kitchen was not a useable space — and it was just very blah and dingy looking.
My biggest pain point was that the oven had about a 4-inch space on each side between the oven and the counter space — this drove me NUTS!!!
We couldn't afford my dream kitchen renovations, so I did what I called a facelift. We modified the existing upper cabinets to fit in a working range hood, modified the lower cabinets to get rid of the 4-inch gap on either side of the oven, replaced the floor with a vinyl tile, built new cabinets around the fridge, installed a bi-fold door for the pantry, installed a dishwasher, new oven and hood range, new kitchen faucet, new counters, painted the walls and cabinets and my favourite aesthetic piece — the kitchen backsplash. We also purchased an IKEA butcher block island that is perfect for my kids to have meals at and do crafts — it also has shelves to house all my cookbooks.
Cost of "Facelift" Renovation
Maria and her dad did all the grunt work. "It's very handy," she says, "to have jack of all trades for a father!" (Do note that these costs are in Canadian dollars.)
• Appliances: oven, range hood, dishwasher – $2,200
• Countertops: $1,000
• Floors: $200
• Backsplash: $175
• Paint: $150
• Cabinet hardware: $100
• IKEA cabinets & bifold door: $1,000
• IKEA island: $575
• Electrical: $500
• Faucet: $200
• Total: $6,100
Maria's Renovation Favorites
What was your favorite improvement?
My favourite aesthetic improvement is the backsplash. I installed it all by myself and was swearing as I grouted itty-bitty tiles at 2am in the morning, but I love how they turned out. I chose the hexagon tile because it reminded me of the tile in the first apartment I shared with my husband.
My favourite functional improvement was the electrical upgrade — being able to make toast and coffee at the same time is a very good thing!
Which one gave you the most "bang for your buck?"
Hard to choose, since we did everything so economically. I would have to say splurging on the IKEA butcher block island. I hemmed and hawed over it for a long time as $575 was a lot to spend at the time (especially since I had a perfectly fine kitchen table to use) and it wasn't a necessary piece to make the kitchen function.
But the island provides storage, seating for my kids to eat and do crafts at while I'm preparing a meal, more counter space (especially for baking!) and provides a place to gather while entertaining. I didn't expect to get as much use from it as I have.
We're always looking for real kitchens from real cooks.
Show us your kitchen here!
(Image: Maria via The Kitchn's submission form)


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Have you ever wondered what the smallest creatures roaming our planet are? Let's meet some very cute, extrordinary miniature creatures with ARKive's favourite smallest species.
What is this on my finger?
This charming minute leaf chameleon is one of the smallest reptiles in the world. As expected for its tiny size, it consumes minute prey, including small fruit flies, white flies and springtails. If threatened by a predator, this clever little creature will drop to the ground like a piece of dead wood and feign death until the danger has passed. How does a predator even spot such a tiny thing!
This is the perfect little hideout for me!
Awww now this one is a real cutie! Described as a new species in 2000, the tiny Madame Berthe's mouse lemur is believed to be the world's smallest living primate! This nocturnal forager has extremely large, forward-facing eyes dramatically improving its night-vision. Weirdly, during the dry winter months, it undergoes a daily period of torpor, lowering its metabolic rate for a few hours. This causes its body temperature to drop, thereby conserving water and energy. Not just a pretty face that mouse lemur!
Where are you little mites, I'm coming to get you…!
Edmond's ground beetle is just 2mm in length – can you imagine? I challenge anyone to find this beetle, which lives within wet moss on the edge of bogs! It is one of the smallest ground beetles in the UK and believe it or not, it is actually a predator, feeding on mites and springtails. You certainly won't feel the need to run away from this mini-beast.
I'm not sure if this whole hiding thing is working out for me.
This delicate little critter known as Denise's pygmy seahorse is one of the smallest of all seahorse species, typically measuring less than 2cm in height! It is a master of camouflage, with its yellow colouration exactly matching the stems of its gorgonian sea fan 'home'. What a dinky sea creature!
Oh no, I'm too high up…my legs are starting to feel like jelly.
The adorable Savi's pygmy shrew is the smallest land mammal in the world, growing to a maximum size of just 8cm! It has an exceptional metabolism, with a heartbeat of over a thousand beats per minute which means it cannot survive for more than a few hours without food. To satisfy its high energy requirements, this velvety, miniature shrew can consume as much as 1.3 times its body weight in a single day. If only we could eat that much and stay that small!
Put me down…
One of the smallest snakes in the world, the hooked thread snake is rarely seen due to the fact that it lives underground and grows to a maximum of 24cm. Owing to its miniature size, extremely slender body, and pink skin; it is often mistaken for an earthworm. I'd rather come across this tiny snake than a king cobra, that's for sure!
Up a bit, down a bit, left a bit….
The diminutive bee hummingbird has the incredible accolade of being the smallest living bird in the world, measuring just 6cm in height. Despite its tiny size, it is capable of beating its wings around 80 times a second in a figure-of-eight pattern, giving it the ability to hover and move with amazing agility. Even more astonishingly, the female lays a clutch of 2 tiny eggs, no bigger than 6mm in length. It's a miracle they don't get squished beneath her!
Ok this wing stretch exercise is really starting to ache now…
Kitti's hog-nosed bat is not only the smallest bat in the world, but also the smallest mammal in existence! Its extinction would not only be the loss of an incredibly unique species, but an entire branch of the evolutionary tree would vanish from our planet. The body of this miniscule bat reaches just 33mm in length. How this researcher managed to catch this little thing is a mystery!
I'm definitely worth more than a pound, even if it doesn't look like it!
This little critter is joint smallest of our top ten smallest species with Edmond's ground beetle! The 2mm long Partula faba is one of the most endangered of all the tree snails and is currently on the edge of survival. It is Extinct in the Wild due to the introduction of invasive snails in the French Polynesian islands in the 1970s. The last remaining population of these snails can only be found at Bristol Zoo Gardens. Let's hope they manage to reintroduce these adorable tiny snails into the wild!
Any minute now, I am going to jump right outta here!
Check out this tiny frog, it's smaller than a fingernail! The Gardiner's tree frog is one of the smallest frogs in the world, growing to only 11mm in length! Unlike most frogs, the young do not hatch as tadpoles, but as fully formed small adult frogs. So the babies are even smaller versions of this little guy – how is that even possible?
Can you find any other tiny species on ARKive? Let us know.
Rebecca Sennett, ARKive Researcher


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A winter storm warning remains in effect for Hartford County until 7 p.m. today. Residential students are asked to postpone their return to campus to Monday afternoon or, for those whose class schedules allow, Tuesday. Students, please do not travel to and arrive on campus today.
Hartt Community Division activities today and this evening are canceled.
Joe Torre is Major League Baseball's Executive Vice President for Baseball Operations. In this capacity, Torre is the primary liaison to all of MLB's general managers and field managers and oversees all on-field operations and umpiring on behalf of Commissioner Allan H. (Bud) Selig.
Marian Wright Edelman is the leader of the Children's Defense Fund, a child advocacy organization that champions policies and programs that lift children out of poverty; protect them from abuse and neglect; and ensure their access to health care, quality education, and a moral and spiritual foundation.
A graduate of Spelman College and Yale Law School, Edelman was the first black woman admitted to the Mississippi Bar Association. She began her career directing the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, Inc., office in Jackson, Miss. In l968 she moved to Washington, D.C., as counsel for the Poor People's Campaign that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. began organizing before his death that year. She then founded the Washington Research Project, a public-interest law firm and the parent body of the Children's Defense Fund. Before founding CDF in 1973, she served as director of the Center for Law and Education at Harvard University.
She has received more than 100 honorary degrees and many awards, including the Albert Schweitzer Humanitarian Prize; the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the nation's highest civilian award; and the Robert F. Kennedy Lifetime Achievement Award for her writings, which include Families in Peril: An Agenda for Social Change; The Measure of Our Success: A Letter to My Children and Yours; Lanterns: A Memoir of Mentors; I'm Your Child, God: Prayers for Our Children; I Can Make a Difference: A Treasury to Inspire Our Children; and The Sea Is So Wide and My Boat Is So Small: Charting a Course for the Next Generation.
Chef Jacques Pépin has hosted 12 popular cooking series on public television, written dozens of cookbooks, and is a gifted artist. Known as Connecticut's most celebrated chef, Pépin, who lives in Madison, is planning to film his 13th cooking series, Jacques Pépin, Heart and Soul, this fall in San Francisco. The series is scheduled to air in the fall of 2015, in time for Pépin's 80th birthday.
Pépin was born in Bourg-en-Bresse, France, near Lyon. His first taste of cooking came as a child in his parents' restaurant, Le Pélican. At 13, he began an apprenticeship at the Grand Hôtel de L'Europe and subsequently worked in Paris, serving as personal chef to three French heads of state.
After moving to the United States in 1959, Pépin first worked at Le Pavillon restaurant in New York City. He later became director of research and new development for Howard Johnson's. At the same time, he earned his bachelor's degree, then a master's in 18th-century French literature at Columbia University.
Pépin starred in a PBS series with culinary icon Julia Child called Julia and Jacques Cooking at Home, which won an Emmy Award and a James Beard Foundation Award in 2001. A former columnist for The New York Times, Pépin was awarded France's highest civilian honor, the Legion of Honor medal, in 2004. A gifted painter, Pépin has expanded his focus on landscape and floral subject matter to explore abstract expressionism.
Ellen R. Marram has spent nearly 40 years anticipating market trends and emerging consumer needs to build profitable brands and companies that address them. She is president of her own business advisory firm, Barnegat Group LLC, and serves as a senior advisor to Mill Road Capital, a private equity investment firm.
Previously, she was managing director and, later, operating advisor at North Castle Partners, where she served as chairman of several portfolio companies from 2000 to 2010.
From 1993 to 1998, Marram was president and chief executive officer of Tropicana and the Tropicana Beverage Group. During her tenure, Tropicana nearly tripled its shareholder value and was sold to PepsiCo for $3.3 billion. Marram was named one of the Top 25 Managers of the Year by BusinessWeek magazine.
Prior to Tropicana, Marram served as president and chief executive officer of the Nabisco Biscuit Company, where she consistently produced strong revenue and profit growth in a highly leveraged environment. Her vision and direction led to the 1992 launch of the highly successful SnackWell's line, which pioneered low-fat snacking.
Marram is the presiding director at Ford Motor Company and the lead director at the global pharmaceutical company Eli Lilly, where she also chairs the corporate governance committee. She is chair of the nominating and governance committee and former presiding director at The New York Times Company. Previously, she served on the boards of Cadbury Schweppes and Kmart. Marram has been named an Outstanding Director by the Financial Times' Outstanding Directors Exchange.
Marram is a director of several private companies, primarily in the food and consumer healthcare sectors. She is a trustee of Wellesley College and serves on a number of nonprofit boards, including Newman's Own, Inc., Institute for the Future, New York–Presbyterian Hospital, and Lincoln Center Theater.
Marram earned a BA from Wellesley College and an MBA from Harvard Business School.
Rabbi Stanley M. Kessler, the founding rabbi of Beth El Temple in West Hartford, Conn., has devoted much of his life to championing civil rights and standing up for causes he supports.
Kessler was among the Freedom Riders who fought for civil rights in the segregated South in the early 1960s. In 1963 he was one of 19 rabbis to march with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in Birmingham, Ala., and in August of that year he attended the historic March on Washington, D.C. Two years later he joined King in Selma, Ala., in a prelude to the five-day Selma-to-Montgomery march for voting rights.
An anti–Vietnam War activist, Kessler was involved with a number of national and regional organizations that opposed the war.
Kessler also was extremely dedicated to the cause of Soviet Jews who were persecuted and denied permission to emigrate. In 1967 Kessler traveled to the former Soviet Union and met with some of these "Refuseniks"—so named because they were refused permission to leave the country. Kessler participated in the World Conference on Soviet Jewry in Brussels, Belgium, in 1971, and throughout the 1970s he lobbied, demonstrated, and spoke out on behalf of Soviet Jews.
Throughout his long and distinguished career, Kessler has continued to speak his mind on a wide range of issues, from Middle East peace to human rights.
A native of Philadelphia, Pa., Kessler served in the U.S. Air Force during World War II, flying 18 missions over Europe. He was ordained in 1951 at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America, where he also earned a Master of Hebrew Literature and received an honorary Doctor of Divinity. In 1954 Kessler was chosen as the spiritual leader of the then year-old Beth El Temple in West Hartford. Named rabbi emeritus upon his retirement in 1992, he remains active in the life of Beth El Temple to this day.
Kessler has traveled to Israel 60 times, beginning in 1949, and he has written about Israel and Jewish communities he has visited in many parts of the world.
Kessler has held high-level positions in several national organizations, including the Rabbinical Assembly and the Synagogue Council of America, and he served as chairman of the National Rabbinic Cabinet of the United Jewish Appeal. He also has served on the boards of numerous state and local organizations.


text:
March 17, 2006
CAMBRIDGE, MASS. - Reigning New England Women's and Men's Athletic Conference (NEWMAC) Rookie of the Year Leah Bogsted posted nine strikeouts and scored the only run in MIT's 1-0 victory over Regis College on Friday. For the second year in a row, the Engineers opened the season with a win while the Pride fell to 2-9 on the year. In the circle, Bogsted notched her fifth career shutout while Veronica Coles received the loss for Regis.
The Pride threatened to get on the scoreboard in its first at-bats as Melissa Gonzalez led off with a single to third base. Cortney Coles followed with a hit to leftfield before getting out at second on a fielder's choice by Megan O'Donnell. A walk issued to Melissa O'Donnell loaded the bases. Bogsted retired the side with back-to-back strikeouts.
Adrianne Hee got things going for MIT with a walk in the bottom half of the inning. A sacrifice bunt by Amanda Poteet and a ground out by Amanda Jason pushed her to third. The Pride got out of the inning on a ground out to second base.
The second inning for Regis saw all four of its hits go to the left side of the field. Veronica Coles led off with a double and then moved to third on a sacrifice bunt by Amanda Reyes that was picked up by third baseman Stephanie Brenman. Leftfielder Helen O'Keefe kept the runner in check as she made a diving grab on a fly ball by Colleen Hill. O'Keefe caught another fly for the third out.
Bogsted led off with a walk and a well-placed bunt by Corinne Vannatta moved her to second. Holly Jeffrey blasted a single to right field that sent Bogsted toward home plate. However, Amanda Heroux's throw home stopped Bogsted and set up a potential run-down. In the midst of the pursuit, Jeffrey advanced to second while Bogsted safely returned to third. Strong defensive play by Reyes at second base helped record the next two outs.
Melissa O'Donnell picked up her first hit of the game with a two-out ground-rule double down the leftfield line. Blair Benander reached on a walk, but the rally ended there as Erin Campbell popped up to Bogsted.
As MIT's first batter in the bottom of the fourth, Bogsted was successful with a single up the middle. Vannatta once again advanced her to second with a sacrifice bunt. A ground out by Jeffrey moved Bogsted to third and she then scored as the throw to third base sailed into foul territory. The Engineers' momentum continued with a walk by Kaitlyn McCartney but the inning ended on a ground out to short stop.
The next inning saw both sides go down in order. When Regis returned to the field in the top of the sixth, Campbell posted a one-out single to right centerfield and Veronica Coles reached on an error. Alexandra Kluchnick came in to pinch run for Coles, but Bogsted struck out the next two batters.
Tech was unable to extend its lead in the bottom of the sixth. Cheryl Texin earned a walk but Bogsted grounded out into a double play. MIT rebounded with a single to leftfield by Vannatta and a walk to Jeffrey. However, a lineout stranded both base runners.
Bogsted notched two more strikeouts before Megan O'Donnell sent a single up the middle. A ground out to third base by Melissa O'Donnell ended the game.
The next game for MIT will be on Thursday, March 23 at 3:30 p.m. when it hosts Brandeis University.