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Tuesday, June 8, 2010
Celestial Focus, Haste, and ICC Gearing
The question of the week seems to be centered on Celestial Focus and Haste. I've seen several questions asking what is the value of Haste? Should I drop Celestial Focus for another talent since I am way over the Haste Cap? Should I Gem Haste or Crit?
In this post I hope to answer some of these questions or show you where to find the answer and also explain why we "experts" seem to be contradicting ourselves.
The Value of Haste:
I can't give you a precise value for Haste Rating. That depends on a lot of things that are different for everyone. How I value Haste will be slightly different then how you value haste. If you do want a precise value of Haste Rating I suggest you read this post I wrote a few months ago.
That said, I can try and give you the big picture. As a general rule Haste Rating is better the Crit rating for ICC geared moonkin. Moonkin that are geared with ToC and Ulduar level epics will value Crit Rating more then Haste because it is unlikely that they have reached the Lunar Crit Cap. Prior to that it doesn't really matter because you should be running as many instances as possible to get badges and 5man epics.
Why is Haste > Crit Now?
I know what some of you are thinking. Last year everyone was telling you that Crit is better then Haste. What changed? What did we "experts" screw up? Well, we didn't mess anything up. The truth is that two things changed.
The Lunar Crit Cap is the first thing that changed. Having some of your Crit Rating rendered useless for 30% of the fight does diminish the marginal value of Crit Rating. That said, the Lunar crit cap is probably over credited for the late rise of Haste Rating. The fact is that the marginal value of Crit Rating was already pretty low if you have a 99% crit rating during Lunar Eclipse. Taking it over 100% doesn't change a lot.
The less obvious reason is Spell Power. Many people forget just how well Haste scaled with Spell Power for Starfire in TBC. Haste Rating was and still is more valuable on a point for point basis then Spell Power for well geared moonkin if you only consider Starfire. So, with the massive amounts of Spell power we are receiving by upgrading to ICC level gear, haste is improving dramatically even with the soft cap.
I won't detail the math but take a look at this graph.
What I did here was find the marginal gain in DPS by adding 1 point of Haste Rating and Crit Rating to various levels of Spell Power for the spell Starfire. The base levels of Crit and Haste were held constant at 55% and 31% respectively.
Notice that the gap between the lines at the start of the graph is much smaller then the gap at the end of the graph. This shows that the slope of the +1 Haste line is bigger then that of +1 Crit, and therefore Haste scales better with Spell Power then Crit Rating does when not held back by a soft cap. When you combine this with the fact that we've been holding our Haste levels relatively low and the dramatic increase in Spell Power we have received from ICC, it is easy to see why Haste Rating is surging in value relative to Crit Rating.
Yes, You Do Want Celestial Focus.
I can understand why some new moonkin would consider dropping Celestial Focus from their talent build. We "experts" tell everyone that Haste drops significantly in value after you reach 400 Haste Rating, and any moonkin who makes the right gear choices will be well over 400 haste rating by the time they are raiding ICC. Logically, if the soft cap diminishes the value of Haste Rating it also diminishes the value of Celestial Focus. If you don't have a lot of experience with the balance tree you may question if there is a better talent option past 400 haste. The answer is no, there is not.
First, as I showed above Haste Rating is very good for Starfire well past the Soft Cap of 400 haste rating. While that extra 1%-3% of haste that CF provides may be useless to Wrath and the instants, it is still very good for a good portion of your rotation with Starfire.
Second, if you drop Celestial Focus you are ignoring the value of pushback protection. In today's raiding environment it isn't a huge need, but it does help your DPS. Therefore, it is important to remember that if you drop CF from your talent build you are loosing more then just the Haste.
Finally, where else are you going to put the points. Genesis sucks. If haste is unimportant to you then Mana Regen should be as well. Brambles and Owlkin Frenzy are only minimally useful. Typhoon and Gale Winds are only situationally use full. Fact of the matter is, even though Celestial Focus is diminishing in value with our increasing level of Haste Rating, there is no better place to put the talent points.
If you want to find a precise valuation of Haste Rating you will need to use a tool like WrathCalcs or SimulationCraft, but I am confident in saying that Haste Rating is better then Crit Rating for ICC geared moonkin. I realize this may confuse some people given the number of times we "experts" have flip flopped on the value of Haste over the course of this expansion, but it is true.
When you combine the huge amounts of Spell Power we receive ICC with the Lunar Crit cap, haste surges in value as we close out this expansion, though it is still lower then it would be with out the Soft Cap.
This also shows that the Haste provided by Celestial Focus has value even past the soft cap. Given that there are no better options on how to spend those 3 talent points and Haste is still very valuable for Starfire, Celestial Focus should remain a part of the core moonkin talent build.
43 comments:
- Maestro said...
I don't think that it's going to make much of a difference here, but increasing haste by 1 point and increasing crit by 1 point gives different percent increased in the values of haste and crit. Given that each point of haste is worth more of a percent than each point of crit, i can see where it would seem to scale better on a per point basis. I suppose then the question becomes whether one point of haste is equivalent to one point of crit in terms of item budget. I honestly don't recall the answer to that. I was just wondering.
- June 8, 2010 at 1:39 PM
Indeed, for Starfire, Haste is the way to go, but keep in mind that by stacking crit, you increase the value of Wrath in your rotation. Since Wrath and Starfire are at about the same percent damage-wise during a fight, and also the fact that more crit=more Nature's Grace uptime, i'd say don't value Haste so much over Crit. In my opinion, until we get to levels of 90-100% Nature's Grace uptime, crit is very close or even slighty higher than Haste. But of course i didn't test this using some simulation, it's just my logical answer to Haste vs Crit :)
- June 9, 2010 at 3:22 AM
A lot of people also don't understand that the "haste soft cap" is binary. It doesn't really matter if you are a little bit over or a lot over it.
- June 9, 2010 at 3:51 AM
I think you are overconsidering haste.
Im running at 40%+ crit unbuffed in night elf form, and 544 haste.
during a whole boss fight starfire crits 90% of the times and wrath 70%
If you add starfall , natures grace is up probably 80% of the time.
That means that wrath benefits of more haste only when i dont land a crit (30% of the times or less)
Stacking haste and losing crit means NG is up much less.
Im still convinced crit>haste besides what wrathcalcs says.
That said, it seems that some dudus with high haste skip solar eclipse and spam starfire all the time. I am definetely not one of them!
- June 9, 2010 at 6:09 AM
- Graylo said...
Yes, Haste and crit have the same itemization value. People have worked it out with green items, but you can also tell with gems.
Sorry but math trumps guesses. I don't know how you are geared but Most ICC25geared moonkin I know are already close to 90% NG uptime. You also missed the main point of the post.
Haste scales better than Crit.
Crit does increase your NG uptime but not much. That is a much overstated benefit. Crit also is does not scale as well with spell power. So at the high levels of ICC SP Crit is inferior.
Ignoring the math is dumb. Your only hurting your DPS. You may be getting 90% SF crits but your gettting them slower.
If you guys want to argue with what I've said, then bring math, otherwise your arguement means nothing.
- June 9, 2010 at 7:26 AM
- Dentex - Dragonblight said...
The only dumb thing i see is having a main cast spell (wrath) constantly below the gcd just to spam starfire faster.
I dont do spreadsheets but take a look at this:
This is your latest DBS kill graylo (the kind of fight where you can measure spell dmg without "disturbing" things like malleable goo, impaling or sindragosa debuff)
This is my most recent kill:
Look at numbers (my wrath vs your starfire) here's my math.
You should write in the title of the post "for those who love to spam starfire, haste is better than crit"
- June 9, 2010 at 8:33 AM
With 1000+ for both, I am still socketing potent rather than reckless.
Where there is target swapping, I'm often missing 3% crit since we don't run with an ellie shaman, and there's rarely a muti/ret on my target.
I'm also often missing a further 5% unless the warlock happens to be on my target.
Haste wins on a boss, yes. If we're target swapping it generally means that something needs burned down fast, hence why I've been working out my gemming assuming I'm lacking crit buffs.
- June 9, 2010 at 9:48 AM
Graylo, is it worth it to consider the value of crit vs. haste wrt to eclipse procs?
In a very movement intensive fight, there are a lot of times when you are dpsing without an eclipse currently up. During this time, your dps is fairly low; I would imagine (but don't have math to back this up) that crit, point for point, improves the average time it takes to proc eclipse, but haste also improves the starfire dps when you're specifically trying to proc solar eclipse.
Of course, theoretically,if you're casting wrath and NOT proccing Lunar eclipse, then most likely you're aren't critting, hence NG isn't up, hence haste cap is different.
OK, let me back up... this is too complicated. Are there models that take in account random segments of your rotation that are interrupted by 3-7 seconds of movement?
IMO maxing dps around movement is essential for anyone concerned with maxing out their characters potential. However, there's a lot more simulations and theory crafting around the idea of standing in place and nuking.
- June 9, 2010 at 10:03 AM
- Dentex - Dragonblight said...
I want to add something:
What is the purpose on getting shitloads of haste to lower starfire to a 1.5 sec cast, adding another cast in a 12 sec buff duration (when probably your next starfire is gonna crit anyway) and not considering stacking crit for chain critting 20k/25k wrath during solar eclipse?
Refreshing your mind:
Lunar eclipse = 40 % crit to starfire (60% chance to proc from wrath critical strikes. benefits marginally from haste, and fully from spell power procs)
Solar eclipse = 40 % dmg to wrath (100% ONEHUNDREDPERCENT chance to proc from starfire critical strikes. it doesnt benefit from haste, but it does from IIS, critical stike rating and spell power procs)
Guess who wins
Boomkins are made to crit. Leave haste to mages
- June 9, 2010 at 11:11 AM
- Maragon said...
Starfire is our primary nuke for a reason. Starfire has a 1.0 +spelldamage coefficient whereas wrath only has a coefficient of .57.
I don't know what you're hoping to prove by posting your logs and Graylo's - I have parses of me ruining your DPS while severely favoring haste over critical strike rating.
Here's my world 60-something Saurfang kill:
I'm running with 981 haste and less than 32% critical strike out of form. And if you peruse the higher DPSing moonkins, you'll see similar haste values.
Unless you can provide us with mathematical data explaining why crit should be valued over haste, then we'll have to dismiss this as merely your opinion.
- June 9, 2010 at 1:44 PM
- Maragon said...
You state - "Refreshing your mind:
Lunar eclipse = 40 % crit to starfire (60% chance to proc from wrath critical strikes. benefits marginally from haste, and fully from spell power procs)"
Please explain how you've come to the conclusion that lunar eclipse(aka starfire) benefits "marginally" from haste.
In reality, starfire benefits FULLY from haste. Hence why haste is such a powerful stat.
- June 9, 2010 at 1:55 PM
I'm perfectly fine with the math saying haste wins. I prefer to have a balance of my stats - so I don't completely factor out haste. I believe I'm at 880 or something in my gear.
However, I do favor crit. Experience has told me time and time again that crit has always helped me with Eclipse fluidity. I don't ignore the math - however, I don't follow it completely.
It's always going to come down to a matter of personal preference - for now - until a MAJOR gap between the two is made apparent. I do not believe the gap between Haste and Crit for Balance druids is that major (think Shadow Priest, Affliction Warlock, Elemental Shaman gaps, etc).
@Maragon: The highest DPS moonkin - me - favors crit: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/wr7fk090zbdidk3k/sum/damageDone/?s=1974&e=2160#Silveria
It's just personal preference, for now. I prefer a balance of the two with a slight lean towards crit.
- June 9, 2010 at 2:48 PM
Everyone that posted a log:
Your log is ONE possible thing to happen with your favor for crit or hast. Run the fight like 9999999999 times and maybe you get some better facts to share... statistics is a bitch!
(I'm really sorry for my probalby crappy english)
- June 9, 2010 at 3:08 PM
- Maragon said...
@ Silvera:
It's hard to say that you "favour crit" when you have 883 haste and only 36.51% crit. You may GEM crit, but you could certainly pick out pieces that would afford you more crit than haste - which you're not doing. Your pants are a good example of you choosing better stats - haste, spellpower and hit - over more critical strike.
And I should hope you're out-dpsing me in your gear which is practically BiS - and nice PI, brah.
- June 9, 2010 at 3:54 PM
It's not a hard decision to choose a piece that is itemized better over the tier 277. One more socket, more overall spellpower - I would be an idiot not to choose them considering how close I value them. If they had crit on them I would like them more, but they don't.
Your hostility is cute. I have some fantastic gear, yeah, I'm lucky. I got one PI, great. I wasn't trying to make this a DPS competition, all I was doing was stating MY opinion, which is an OPINION - I prefer crit. It has done me well (evidenced by my logs). I consistently perform well with it, PI's or not, and although the math states that haste has a higher value, which I do not doubt, I feel that the values are close enough to where you could prefer one or the other - or simply a balance, which is mostly what I go for. Like I said, I lean SLIGHTLY towards crit - which is why I made the better decision regarding those pants. I gem crit because that's what I prefer.
- June 9, 2010 at 5:00 PM
@ Maragon:
60k more dmg over almost 3 million is not "ruining" my log. I could do better on a lucky RNG try and your 277 trinket with half your haste.
Anyway i didnt post the link to the dps section to showoff, but i did post the link to the specific spell dmg just to show that you can do better and/or similar results with different stats.
I still believe haste is overconsidered, because spreadsheets are one thing. the real fight is another thing.
Spell dmg coefficient is directly proportional to the cast time. with a base slight bonus to wrath. solar eclipse is the only one adding a damage bonus, which doubles every crit. thats why is win in my opinion
Im sure in the next future i will need to raise haste because of the gear itemization, i will not cry about it.But for now i keep my crit, and encourage people to stack it before starting to stack haste.
- June 9, 2010 at 5:02 PM
- Maragon said...
"I could do better on a lucky RNG try and your 277 trinket with half your haste."
Prove it - or it's heresay, which is as worthless as your other opinions on haste and critical strike values.
Just because you SAY you could match my numbers doesn't mean you can anymore than my saying I could match Silvera's numbers if I had his gear and a PI means that I could.
@ Silvera
"Your hostility is cute. I have some fantastic gear, yeah, I'm lucky. I got one PI, great. I wasn't trying to make this a DPS competition, all I was doing was stating MY opinion, which is an OPINION - I prefer crit. "
I hardly think I'm being hostile - I'm merely reacting to your direct challenge to my log by posting your log. You could have stated your opinion without posting a log.
If you really want to dispute the current theories, bring some math to do so.
- June 9, 2010 at 5:42 PM
There simply isn't that much theorycrafting regarding how crit can affect fluidity of Eclipse transitions, especially where you are cycling through different targets that are not fully raid debuffed (i.e. 70% of ICC fights, the most important of which being LK) Those sort of factors can close the 'gap' between crit vs haste, and even end up favoring crit substantially.
I choose to gem sp/crit rather than sp/haste just for that edge. The rest of my pieces are essentially chosen because they're better pieces (like the tier pants vs plaguebringer's discussion that happened earlier).
WTB Balance dots scaling w/ crit. :( I think that would end the 'debate'.
- Dignam, Crushridge US
- June 9, 2010 at 7:01 PM
Also, forgot to mention this regarding the crit vs haste debate.
When it comes to Lunar Eclipse 'clairvoyance', there is a level of haste where watching your natures grace and predicting (I normally predict at 1-2 simultaneous refreshes) where you end up finishing your Starfire before you actually gain the Eclipse buff, screwing you over pretty hard. Generally, being excellent at predicting the transition has always been one thing that separated good Moonkin from horrible ones, and now its suddenly become incredibly hard to do.
- Dignam, Crushridge US
- June 9, 2010 at 7:12 PM
The case being argued here is flawed from both perspectives. The only time when you should ever be considering whether to stack crit or haste over one another is when gemming. How many yellow sockets do you have on your gear where the socket bonus is worth taking? (im assuming all yellow sockets are worth gemming reckless/potent except in situations where you need 2 yellow gems to get the bonus...) 4? 6? possibly 8 at a pinch? So you're talking about a difference of upto 80 haste or crit here. 2.6% haste or 1.9% crit. In the grand scheme of things, a trivial amount.
When gearing, you should never be considering "do I want that piece cos it has more haste or do I want that piece cos it has more crit?" Instead, all you should be thinking is "where can I put my hit so that I can maximise the amount of crit AND haste on my gear. Spirit is never really an option unless there is no drop with haste+crit, both are worth about 1.3 times the value of spirit. (you can argue wrist slot all you like, hit wrists are still currently the best except when only capping hit to heroic presence, and come 3.3.5 there will be a haste/crit alternative that drops from the Ruby Sanctum.)
So how many alternatives with haste+crit are there in each slot and at each ilvl? Most of the time only one, occasionally 2 - one leather one cloth with identical stats - and very rarely 2, one 10 man heroic mode item and one normal 25 man item, one with more crit, and one with more haste, so at heroic level, generally there is only ever one choice in every slot anyway. When you are faced with a choice? Never go for 'the one that has more crit' or 'the one that has more haste', but always the one that has the greatest accumulation of the two and the most spellpower. (although they should have the same sp at the same ilvl)
The only real dilemma should be (as I said above) where to put your hit in order to maximise both crit and haste.
If you read Graylos post properly, you should have noticed that he specifically states that haste scales better with spellpower, not 'haste is better than crit'. If you took the graph he presented and changed it to Wrath casts instead of Starfire, you would see the lines reversed (with haste levelling off much earlier) but with the top value of crit being lower than that of haste on the SF graph due to Wraths lower coefficient. This would show overall that haste scales marginally better with SF than crit does with Wrath and as such is the reason why you're better off gemming reckless ametrines than potent ones.
Overall tho its such a minor gain that you would probably see it swallowed up by RNG most of the time.
There is barely ever a choice to make when gearing. Haste+crit in every slot, except where you want to put hit. Spirit is acceptable whilst waiting for a haste+crit upgrade, but won't be BiS. Gem reckless over potent, although the difference could be considered preferential.
- June 9, 2010 at 9:28 PM
Yes, this 'debate' all ends entirely with whatever you find preferential. The more interesting debate is how to actually interpret data you read from theorycrafters and applying it to actual fights where you don't just stand there and nuke away the entire time with a fully debuffed target.
To me, that is more important than the solid math since Boomkins and 98% of fights are not as two dimensional as the math makes them out to be.
- Dignam, Crushridge US
- June 10, 2010 at 12:32 AM
I respect Graylo and his math and I'd just like to say thank you for taking the time to do all that and for making it available to us.
We have been blessed with options here and everyone fails to see this. You can be a haste Moonkin, a Crit Moonkin or a Balanced Moonkin past the soft caps and do good DPS either way you go. This is what cataclysm will be about. Choosing your path. So you have the option to do that now with little difference in your DPS.
- June 10, 2010 at 1:35 AM
Did Rawr, Wrathcalc and all the theory-crafter think of starfall-buff in patch 3.3.3.? I hope you consider, that starfall scales with crit-rating but not with haste-rating. And for me, starfall does 15%+ of my overall dmg.
Graylo, your graph would be right for pre 3.3.3. situation, but now crit- and haste-rating should be almost equal.
mfg Olli, EU/Zuluhed
- June 10, 2010 at 3:37 AM
"Prove it - or it's heresay, which is as worthless as your other opinions on haste and critical strike values."
Your damage:
Deathbringer Saurfang 2664188 93.6 %
Blood Beast 1
82524 6.4 %
My damage:
Deathbringer Saurfang 2148626 77.2 %
Blood Beast 634216 22.8 %
You have been full time on boss, With the obvious benefits.
And my opinion is not so worthless if this thread is becoming someway interesting.
- June 10, 2010 at 7:56 AM
- Graylo said...
Wow, I go away for one day and the comments on my blog explode.
Lets all take a step back and realize what I say in my blog and not what you guys think I was saying.
There seems to be a common belief around the interwebz that "haste sucks for moonkin." That is not completely true. Prior to 400 points Haste rating is god. After 400 is clearly inferior to Crit until about 950-1050 crit rating, but it still isn't horrible. After the Lunar Crit Cap haste is better then Crit again on a point for point bases but the reasoning is complicated.
Part of the reason is that the Lunar Crit cap pulls the Value of Crit down, but that is only part of the reason. The other par is that haste scales with Spell Power much better then Crit does, and that is what my graph shows. This is how Haste as caught up to Crit in ICC. The LCC deminishes the value of Crit, but the extra 500 SP we pick up by going from ToC to ICC boosts Haste a lot More then it does Crit.
You can argue against that all you want with your feelings, but the math proves it. Until you can provide math to say otherwise, your arguement doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.
All that said, I have NEVER said "Crit sucks." In truth we are arguing about less then 1% DPS here. I wouldn't be surprised if it was less then 0.5% DPS. The marginal values of Haste and Crit are very similar, but haste is better. Are you going to do horrible DPS if you go with crit instead? No! Are you going to top the DPS charts if you use Haste? Not necessarily! Crit's not optimal but it is effective.
That said, it's absolutly laughable that you guys are throwing around WoL parces to prove your points.
Crit vs Haste is the only thing that matters am I right?
The fact of the matter is that there are hundreds of variables that go into determining how well any individual player does on one specific fight. So to pull out a parse and say I think X and I did better then you there for X is correct is ludacrous. Those results could be different because of Gear, RNG, fight strat, technical issues, or just overall skill of the player to name a few reasons.
The simulators and spreadsheets are the only things we have to come close to accurately testing these theorys. A one off parse says almost nothing.
- June 10, 2010 at 10:06 AM
- Graylo said...
SimulationCraft and WrathCalcs takes Eclipse into account, and you can set up Simulation Craft to consider movement like activity as well. When I was using the movement function I wasn't seeing a huge shift in results.
I wouldn't say SF is our primary nuke. I think Wrath and SF are fairly equal now. That said, Wrath does scale with Spell Power better then Wrath does. You can thank Starlight Wrath for that.
Since Eclipse procs off of Crits, people tend to over estimate the value of that relationship. Gaining or loosing a few percent of Crit doesn't dramatically shift your chance to proc Eclipse on average. At the same time people forget that haste has an impact on how fast you proc eclipse as well. So, doing theory on "how crit can affect fluidity of Eclipse transitions" isn't as important as you may think.
- June 10, 2010 at 10:18 AM
I have linked the parse with detailed dmg done(not dps or whatever), and i asked you to compare wrath vs starfire.
Since i dont do calculations, the only thing i can link is my spell dmg list on an average fight like DBS.
Then someone else started the showoff, being also aggressive in some way.
Btw /agree with Silveria
- June 10, 2010 at 10:29 AM
k, i see, i will be ignored without a prove, so here are my spreadsheets based on WrathCalcs 100402.xls. I put in my stats (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zuluhed&cn=Ollidrood):
After that i increased the amount of stars from starfall (formula in cooldowns->D10 ...*10). In a single-target situation that number would be correct.
Now i increased number of stars to 20 and as you can see in character sheet tab in cell D5 and D7, that critrating overhauls hasterating in scaling.
I test a little bit and with 17 stars i see crit-rating = haste-rating.
Now the question is, how often u can use all 20 stars of starfall in a boss-fight. And if u think a little bit of that situation, u will only find 3 bosses (rotface, festergut, blood-prince council), where u couldn't benefit from all stars (although u can push your dps at rotface and council, when your stars falls at 'ineffective' targets).
regards Olli, EU/Zuluhed
- June 10, 2010 at 11:08 AM
Ah, i forgot to mention, that wrathcalc doesn't calculate with starfall splash dmg (that also scales with crit-rating). So in some special 'bombing' situations crit-rating should be even better.
regards Olli, EU/Zuluhed
- June 10, 2010 at 11:17 AM
- Graylo said...
"I have linked the parse with detailed dmg done(not dps or whatever), and i asked you to compare wrath vs starfire."
So what was the point and what do you think you proved. Yes, for you you did more damage with Wrath then Starfire. Does that mean Crit > Haste? Does that prove you right?What you linked told us almost nothing.
- June 10, 2010 at 11:55 AM
I am still wondering if your graph incorporates Starfall in any manner. Looking back over it, Starfall is never mentioned.
Once again, I am not trying to be disrespectful in any manner and I truly appreciate the work you put in to explaining these numbers.
- Dignam, Crushridge US
- June 10, 2010 at 12:21 PM
- Graylo said...
I don't think you understand what the graph is saying. The graph shows how Haste and Crit scale with spell power. I used Starfire as the bases for the comparison because it gives the clearest picture since it is not limited by the GCD and is not an instant cast.
This post is purely an explination on how haste has improved so much since patch 3.3.
Yes, Starfall does improve the marginal value of Crit more then it does Haste because haste has little impact on the DPS of Starfall. Same can be said for Wrath, or Moonfire. However, if you run a reasonable rotation through a spreadsheet or a Sim you are likely to find that Haste > Crit for your gear level. This is because the Lunar Crit cap limits the value of Crit, and Haste scales with Spell Power for one of our primary spells so much better then it does with Crit rating.
- June 10, 2010 at 12:54 PM
@ Olli
Are you including glyph of focus in your WrathCalcs sheet? If so, this is probably not as valid a comparison as the general consensus on Glyphs doesn't include it.
I feel I need to reiterate some of what I said above as the discussion still seems to be heading in the direction of haste v crit.
There should never be a point, (nor should there really ever have been), where you start deciding to 'stack' either crit OR haste. You should be trying to increase both simultaneously. The only time where you should even be contemplating whether one is greater than the other is when gemming, and that difference is going to be minute! Haste AND crit in every slot, except where you have to have hit. And you do have to have hit.
Linking parses proves nothing except how big your ego is.
- June 10, 2010 at 10:56 PM
"So what was the point and what do you think you proved. Yes, for you you did more damage with Wrath then Starfire. Does that mean Crit > Haste? Does that prove you right?What you linked told us almost nothing."
I have proven nothing, you are right. But i have seen that i can do much more damage with wrath with a high critical strike rating.
"Having some of your Crit Rating rendered useless for 30% of the fight does diminish the marginal value of Crit Rating."
That is true, but you did not add that the extra crit applies during solar, when you have a +40% bonus damage (which doubles each time you crit). And the extra haste that benefits starfire is useless on wrath in the same %
"What I did here was find the marginal gain in DPS by adding 1 point of Haste Rating and Crit Rating to various levels of Spell Power for the spell Starfire"
This is the main reason why i am posting here. You made a statement "Haste>Crit", you made a graph that applies only to starfire spell. That is obvious
Can you pls explain how critical strike rating scales with wrath and starfall?
- June 11, 2010 at 2:15 AM
Thats why i posted a direct link to my spreadsheets (download them and try yourself) - no, i didn't use focus glyph.
I only wanted to mention, that Graylo's haste>crit thesis is based on single-target view done with his own analyis or simcraft/wrathcalc-tools etc. But ICC isn't only to be single-targeting, quite the opposite, it's more multi-targeting, sometimes nearly bombing situations (lichking). And the missing splash-dmg in the spreadsheet-tools will do an additional pro-scaling for haste.
Yes, haste scales better with sp, than crit does, but you have to be realistically. An ICC-25hm euipped moonkin couldn't reach that high sp levels, if you take 20 falling stars in account.
regards Olli, EU/Zuluhed
- June 11, 2010 at 3:56 AM
- Graylo said...
"I have proven nothing, you are right. But i have seen that i can do much more damage with wrath with a high critical strike rating."
That's like saying I can go faster if I put a V6 in my Jetta. True, but you can go even faster if you just get a Ferrari.
"That is true, but you did not add that the extra crit applies during solar, when you have a +40% bonus damage (which doubles each time you crit). And the extra haste that benefits starfire is useless on wrath in the same %"
True, but that was not the point f the post. I wrote this post to show why Haste is still good, and why it has caught up with Crit rating when you've past both caps. I only made this comment because in every one of your comments you seem to ignore the negative aspects of crit, while focusing on them for Haste. Both stats scale in the 55%-65% range, and that is bad for druids in general, but one still better then the other.
"This is the main reason why i am posting here. You made a statement "Haste>Crit", you made a graph that applies only to starfire spell. That is obvious"
I ran a SimulationCraft on you. It had Haste valued at 63% and crit valued at 55% per point for you. Haste is greater then Crit, especially for you given your encredibly large Crit Rating levels and very low Haste Rating levels. That is a fact.
"Can you pls explain how critical strike rating scales with wrath and starfall?"
Crit scales with Wrath and Starfall in very similar ways. Wrath gets a slight edge because it's higher spell coeffiecent and lower average crit rating because of ImpIS, but that difference is very small. So the like in the Starfire graph is applicable to Wrath as well and likely very similar to a line that you would finde for Starfall. However, that is the wrong way to look at it.
It's not that Crit scales better for Wrath and Starfall but Haste scales worse for those individual spells. Everyone knows it, but some people take that info and use it in an incorrect manner. they assuming that since Haste is not good for 50-60% of my rotation then Haste is not good. Wrong!
If you're over the Crit cap, then Crit rating is going to be useless for about 40-50% of your rotation. Some would take this as a sign that crit is still better since Haste does not impact more of your rotation, but that ignores how the two stats scale with spell power.
My post above shows that Haste Rating Scales with spell Power much more then Crit rating does. This is how Haste has closed the gap between the two stats. Haste scales so much better for STarfire then Crit does for Wrath and Starfall.
- June 11, 2010 at 8:01 AM
Post is not including 4 piece tier 10. IMO with 4pt10 Crit > Haste
- June 12, 2010 at 12:20 PM
"However, if you run a reasonable rotation through a spreadsheet or a Sim you are likely to find that Haste > Crit for your gear level."
Did that with wrathcalc and with 20 falling stars from starfall (and missing splash-dmg, which can hit critically too) it shows crit>haste with an ICC-hm euipped moonkin.
regards, Olli EU/Zuluhed
- June 12, 2010 at 2:00 PM
- Graylo said...
While I did not include 4T10 in the graph I did run the numbers with it. It does improve the marginal value of Crit a little, but not as much as you obviously think. Not to mention that all the sims and spreadsheets would include the set bonus. Sorry, Haste > Crit even with 4T10.
Tried looking you up on the armory but couldn't find you so I can't verify what you said. However, I do know that not every fight has adds, and even on the fights that do not all of them are significant. Don't overestimate the value of what you are seeing.
- June 13, 2010 at 8:31 AM
Here's my initial post with armory- and spreadsheet-links: http://graymatterwow.blogspot.com/2010/06/celestial-focus-haste-and-icc-gearing.html?showComment=1276186134046#c6850394069605064783
However, I do know that not every fight has adds, and even on the fights that do not all of them are significant.
Can't agree at all, see post above.
Don't overestimate the value of what you are seeing.
With my initial post i only wanted to note, that it doesn't matter, if you prefer crit or haste as an ICC25hm raiding moonkin, because
1. the difference is quite small
2. it depends on encounter, whether haste or crit would be a little bit more usefull.
3. you can't reach that high sp-levels with ICC25hm gear, where you can definitely say: haste>crit.
regards Olli, EU/Zuluhed
WoL: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/25472/
- June 13, 2010 at 9:37 AM
I like your ferrari/jetta comparison. Made me sincerely smile :)
Lets say ferrari has low torque, but great top speed. Jetta has lower top speed but higher acceleration (torque). What would you pick up for a uphill road and what would you pick up for a straight highway?
Besides those jokes, i respect your calculations and probably some more haste will benefit me when my +crit choices are over..
But i wanted to ask you something else:
Do you know how the +40% solar bonus damage scales with the various spell power procs we have?
So far, every respectful moonkin in the world has the Ashen Verdict ring. Almost everyone has at least one BiS trinket (Phylacery or Dislodged or maybe both)
On an average fight (lets' say 4 minutes) we have at least 3(or 6 for the lucky guys having both BiS) trinket procs, and let's say 3 Ring procs.
Those procs are all pure Spellpower, and there is no haste or crit proc as far as i know.
How do they interact during solar and lunar eclipse?
Could this be a variable to be taken into consideration in the various spreadsheets?
Thanks in advance
- June 13, 2010 at 10:20 AM
Three things.
The marginal value of crit increases slower then haste as spellpower only increases (graylos chart)
The marginal value of crit decreases as Int increases since int gives crit also.
The marginal value of haste increases as int increases.
Thus as higher levels of gear with all their int and spellpower are gotten... at some point haste overtakes crit, end of story. You can argue we're not at that point yet but simulations and logs can settle that.
- June 14, 2010 at 6:22 PM
I know this post is old, but I feel the need to speak up in Graylo's defense.
He is correct, at the soft crit cap, haste beats out crit by about .2-.3 dps per point in full raid buffs and 30% ICC buff.
This is not enough of an increase to regem all your 264 gear with haste, but as I start replacing my gear with 277 gear, I gem spell/haste in yellow sockets while maintaining around 960 crit. I keep it over the crit cap, because you can't always be sure to get every buff.
Again, like all SOFT caps, they are break points to keep in mind, not to stress over. If you go over it, don't change your gear and gems to get back down to it.
The reality is, in heroic 25 man gear, you are going to be way over both soft caps, and keeping them balanced is a better solution.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/72i58np7rpte996y/details/7/?s=2434&e=2650 is the link to my moonkin, if you want a comparison
- August 4, 2010 at 4:49 AM


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Monday, March 09, 2009
Dual Spec Predictions
Big Winners: Healers and Tanks
Dual specs are pure and absolute win for healers and tanks. They get their main spec for raids, and then can do a variety of things with the second spec. They could go with DPS for farming and soloing, making that aspect of the game much less frustrating. Or run a PvP spec to participate in PvP. Or even run a second type of healer/tank spec, if absolutely crazy.
There's pretty much no downside for the healers and tanks. They get first choice of the healing or tanking gear, and can actually use their offsets.
Small Winners: "Pure" DPS Classes
For the "pure" DPS classes (rogues, mages, warlocks, hunters) dual specs are useful, but not game-changing. These classes will most probably end up using their second spec for PvP. You might see some of them using the second spec for Replenishment, depending on how popular those specs are. If Survival, Destruction, or Frost are popular in and of themselves, people may not bother.
I don't really see dual-specs changing the game significantly for pure DPS classes. Some of them might not even bother to purchase the option.
Big Losers: DPS Hybrids
DPS hybrids are going to take this hard. First, it's going to be expected that the second spec will be healing if you can heal, or tanking otherwise. No PvP specs for you!
Second, there still won't be enough healers/tanks, and lots of dps, so guilds will will pressure you into healing "just for now, until we recruit more healers." But they won't be able to recruit, or recruiting will suddenly become less urgent, so you'll see a lot of DPS hybrids get stuck healing.
Because the cost of switching will become so low, the norm will change such that switching to healing is the expected behavior, even if the player doesn't want to heal. After all, why spend all that time and effort trying to recruit scarce healers when one of your DPS hybrids can switch for zero cost?
Finally, because the hybrid still considers themselves as DPS, they'll won't get primary consideration on healing loot, as the healer mains will have that. However, adding insult to injury, I predict that many guilds will start giving the pure DPS classes priority on DPS gear. This will be justified on the grounds that the pure classes will use the gear 100% of the time, while the DPS hybrid spends a lot of their time healing. So obviously the pures will receive priority "for the good of the guild as they will get the most use out of the gear."
I think the healers and tanks will be very happy. The pure DPS classes won't really see much change. But I think there will be lots of drama surrounding the DPS hybrids.
45 comments:
Indeed and agreed.ReplyDelete
You also got to the point much more quickly than I have in my draft on this topic...
*presses 'Delete' button*
- Anonymous10:57 AM, March 09, 2009
I agree somewhat, however guilds that are short on tanks/healers already make DPS hybrids go non-dps "for now." I don't really see it changing anything much that they can have 2 specs, other than it will save them money since they are pretty much already in the first category of "tanks/healers" if they are in that kind of guild.ReplyDelete
What I'm worried about are guilds forcing healers or tanks to take 2 separate healing or tanking specs so they can switch for certain encounters. I figure that will only be the most hardcore guilds doing that type of thing, but it's something to watch out for if you happen to have a nazi for a GM.
- Anonymous11:02 AM, March 09, 2009
Every Healer in game is also a DPS hybrid, so this categorizing is redundant.ReplyDelete
Spec doesn't matter if you don't have the ample amount of gear to support dual roles.
I think most guilds will make you declare a main, if only to simplify loot distribution.ReplyDelete
If "every Healer in game is also a DPS hybrid" does that mean that these hybrids are allowed to roll Need on both healing and dps gear? (Or get priority on both, depending on what your loot system is?)
I think the answer to that is "Hell, no". So people will end up having to declare a main spec.
- Anonymous11:12 AM, March 09, 2009
I think people are smart enough to recognize that people have a primary and off spec, doubt this will change things too much, though I suspect that an 'offspec' that could be required by the raid may end up with a higher priority than it had before.ReplyDelete
The issue I see with hybrids is that dual spec may not be enough. Paladins can dps, tank, heal and PVP. I know I have 4 sets of gear. In an ideal world, we would have quad specs. I'd certainly pay 3k gold for it. Dual specs may be enough for a 'pure' class that just wants to dps and pvp.
This is pretty much what I have been saying since the crying has spread throughout the blog world.ReplyDelete
And I DON'T think it will effect people who are raiding with their guild.
But beware those of you who are trying to PUG as Ret, Elemental, Enhancement, Feral (Cat), Balance, Shadow... you WILL be asked if you have the gear and alternate spec to fulfill another roll.
Me? I roll as a Holy Paladin in raids. I am planning on building a Protection set for my alternative spec. I won't need to DPS (I'm 40 quests away from finishing Loremaster... what am I going to solo after that?), so I'll just make myself available in BOTH of the rare roles.
Points that make forcing a DPS hybrid to dual-spec tank/healer against their wishes a bad idea are:ReplyDelete
- They'll resent you, and the guild
- They won't have done the research into knowing how to tank/heal, and will most likely do a crap job at it
- They probably won't have the gear, nor will it be gemmed/enchanted properly
- It's 50g to respec max, but 1k for dual-spec. If you're going to expect to choose someone's second spec you better be paying that 1k for them.
I don't think your role has anything to do with whether you're w "winner" or "loser" with the feature. I think that the only losers will be people who are already losing in a bad guild. The situation will just be exacerbated by this feature. Everyone in a half-decent guild will be a big winner.
- Anonymous11:43 AM, March 09, 2009
I think the winners here are the people who respec a lot already. (That certainly includes a lot of tanks and healers.)ReplyDelete
As a raid leader, I don't plan to pressure anyone to do anything. I am pretty sure I already know who the guys are who might find it fun to dual role and we've been running 10 mans to help gear offspecs for a few weeks anyway. And the guys who want to be pure dps can go ahead and do that too.
I am very curious to see how it all works out though.
Rohan wrote:ReplyDelete
Big Winners: Healers and Tanks
Small Winners: "Pure" DPS Classes
Big Losers: DPS Hybrids
I think this is a pretty insightful breakdown. I know my tank is looking forward to it, but yes it will indeed put more pressure hybrids to switch out of dps.
you make an excellent point from a raiding guild POV I think.ReplyDelete
However, I'm in a PvP Guild so I mostly run PUGS. When I'm healing I roll on healing gear, when I'm DPS I roll on DPS gear....Seems fair enough
I would expect that the more casual guilds would follow this logic as well. You roll for the spec you're playing at the time.
I think the player can easily solve it by saying "I'm not going to heal for you guys unless I get fair considering on healing hear"... Don't like it then leave me as the DPS I signed up for and recruit a full time healer.
I don't need no stinkin' dual spec ability to be a "Loot Hoover". I'm quite successful in that capacity as it is by way of "loot defaults". Having ability in three roles has its advantages.ReplyDelete
But seriously, our "loot system" dictates that players filling an alternate role BY REQUEST of the raid leader rolls as if that is their main spec. And often, the guild pays for the respec(s) to boot. End of loot drama.
I know I'll steer clear of PuGs, though. More headaches than I want to deal with...
- Willowbear12:47 PM, March 09, 2009
Hybrids already have the loot issues vs pure classes. I've mainly seen it in 5mans as opposed to raids. It's the curse of being able to provide the utility of filling multiple roles.ReplyDelete
"The rogue would use that shard of contempt 100% of the time. You wouldn't so you shouldn't be allowed to roll on it." (druid tanking)
"Only tanks should be allowed to roll on that item." (druid dps)
So nothing new there.
The players will only be losers if they remain in guilds that would force them to do something they don't want to do. And even worse not give them extra support for doing so.
I think any guild that pressures a DPS hybrid into a role they don't enjoy will only make them resent the guild and they'll end up losing those hybrids, either to other guilds or to real life when they realize raiding is more frustrating than fun.ReplyDelete
If my guild told me that my ret pally or elemental shaman was only going to raid if I came as my healing offspec, I'd either find a new guild or give up on that character entirely. I put so much effort into improving my favored spec, just so I can do my best in raids... what's the point if I never get to actually do it?
Hybrids should use their second spec for what THEY want to use it for. It's their thousand gold, after all. I don't believe in staying in a guild if they don't agree with me on things like this.
- Anonymous1:23 PM, March 09, 2009
Nice post but I think it is demo not destructionReplyDelete
If my guild told me that my ret pally or elemental shaman was only going to raid if I came as my healing offspec, I'd either find a new guild or give up on that character entirely.ReplyDelete
They won't say that. They'll say, "Kiryn, X can't make it tonight. We're looking to recruit more healers, but could you heal just for tonight?"
And then you'll find that you're going to more raids as Holy than you are as Ret.
I really hope that hybrid classes don't get screwed over in this way but I have to say, your reasoning does make sense... I think it may have to do more with how guilds work though. The thing is, just because some classes can spec into healing or tanking doesn't mean they can play the class well, so it probably will depend on the player and guild.ReplyDelete
While I think you have a point in general, I don't think it'll be quite as much of a problem as you theorize.ReplyDelete
I just think that you put too much into the assumption that the guild leader has complete control over what the players will do. While it may be true in some guilds, I doubt that the majority will be so heavy handed. People are going to learn fast that if the player isn't allowed to use their 1k on a spec they want, then they're not going to have that player for very long.
The only people I see that might be pressured to heal "just this once" are the kind of folks who already do that every now and then, shelling out the 50g.
I'd actually argue that this gives DPS Hybrids a boost, since it lets them much more easily play around with their offsets. Myself, I actually do plan on giving my Shaman a healing offspec, since I'd like to segue into doing that with him vice DPS. I wouldn't have bothered at all with the way respecs currently are, since I still have DPS commitments with him.
Anon -
It's Destruction that's getting Replenishment. It's the new Improved Soul Leech talent. I'm actually going to make that my Warlock's offspec, in case I need to fill in a 10-man that doesn't have Replenishment already.
My main is a moonkin and I've been waffling left and right over what my second spec will be, or if I'll even *have* a second spec. I don't PvP on my main, and while I've been happy to pinch tank or pinch heal, I've never done either to the point of respeccing.ReplyDelete
I'm pretty sure my guild will continue to let me roll on caster gear without an issue (except for the usual cloth goes to clothies first). We're pretty good in letting people play whatever role they want, especially since we're good for tanks and healers (maybe even a little heavy on them), so I'm sure our ret paladin will continue to primarily be ret and no one will ask him to respec if he doesn't want to, and it'll be the same with me.
I realize not all guilds will be like this though, especially those that are more progression minded than mine, but I think it's also arguable that someone who is in that kind of guild knew what they were signing up for when they joined, and they've respecced a number of times already.
- Jordrah6:59 PM, March 09, 2009
haha, guilds can bite my @$$... my pally will be rolling ret/prot.ReplyDelete
ill prolly do a elemental/resto on my shamie... but publically i'll be elemental/enh just so everyone feels that extra guild for making me redo one of my specs ;P
dont get me wrong, i dont mind healing at all, but its not fun when the guild starts assuming that you'll be healing every raid. i like to leave myself as a last resort only to be used if the raid is about to break up for lack of a healer
I disagreeReplyDelete
One factor you are missing is that many dedicated tanks/healers are just as stuck in their role as you think DPS hybrids will be. All healers and all tanks have at least DPS spec possibility. As a dedicated healer I don't get to DPS when I feel itchy one night. I don't see any difference between your DPS and your tank/healer category as both have the same innate capabilities.
In the end, any raid is a cooperative effort. Some people will heal, some tank and some DPS. The main consideration should be how to get the next boss down, not who gets to DPS, and who has to heal.
As a dedicated healer (who will be having 2 healing specs) I find it kind of disturbing that this article refers to healing as a forced obligation instead of as a way to contribute. If I would go with your line of thought, my position would be to find hybrid DPS players terribly selfish for not being willing to switch. In my guild we have several switch players as it is. None are complaining. Most of them are tanks that switch to DPS on bosses that don't need 4 tanks.
When looking from the perspective of group balance we get another picture again:
5 man instances typically need 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS. (20/20/60)
10 man instances typically need 2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 DPS. (20/30/50)
25 man instances typically need 3tanks, 6 healers, 16 DPS (12/24/64)
The proportions are not the same. The impact is that the smaller instances are mostly short on tanks, and raids are mostly short on healers.
My final position is, that I welcome dual spec, and its biggest result is to allow for flexible switch roles between smaller and larger instances.
> For the "pure" DPS classes (rogues, mages, warlocks, hunters)ReplyDelete
> dual specs are useful, but not game-changing. These classes
> will most probably end up using their second spec for PvP.
Actually, mages, warlocks, hunters are hybrids too with 3.1.
Ghostcrawler mentioned many times that there are now 4 rules:
o Tank
o Heal
o Dps
o Replenishment
Mages, warlocks, hunters are all capable to supply replenishment.
That might not be an issue for 25 mans but in a 10 man I would expect
that you might have to supply if from time to time. And I doubt it's
the preferred spec for these classes. I don't know about rogues.
From long, long experience: a lot of hybrid dps has had to fight a long hard battle to be allowed to do dps. DPS is fun. It's competitive. It's simple. It's less stressful.
Returning (or being 'forced' for the first time) to healing will be painful for a lot of people who have just burnt out.
Spot on. I simply can't understand where all the 'pure' dps anxst is coming from.ReplyDelete
Kring, from what I have read the roles that provide replenishment are the lowest of the DPS specs for each class.ReplyDelete
Demo warlock
Frost mage
Shadow priest
Ret pally
Survival hunter
What DPSer is going to lower their DPS to provide replenishment for their healers, unless forced to or they like that spec?
I honestly wouldn't want a healer who has been forced into healing. They aren't going to be good at it. Forcing people to do something they don't want is always a bad idea.
Whoops, that should have been destruction warlock.ReplyDelete
- Anonymous6:55 AM, March 10, 2009
No-one can argue there's a healer shortage. There was a tank shortage then dk's came along and fixed that, but in my eyes, someone that can heal especially at lower levels is a healer. Paladin, shaman, druid - I don't care who heals me. If they want the quests, rep and gear, they can heal. I don't think hybrids will get stiffed on gear. They'll most probably need to go healing with a healing set and whichever one they like, so if they need to heal, they need to heal properly, and enough mana to rez without needing a drink first would be good. As you can probably tell, my main's have usually all been tanks. To make up I've made a priest, and got her to 12 :). In aid of getting a run together I would love to be a healer.ReplyDelete
To Andrew:ReplyDelete
Yes, healing and tanking can be stressful and healers and tanks tend to burn out sooner. Also you don't get to see your name in the DPS list. Having played all three roles extensively I realize that very well.
It is hard to tell if someone chooses to heal or tank because that is the role they like best, or if they do it because there is no other raid spot available, or if they do it because they feel forced. There are many grey areas and mostly it will be a mix of things.
Back to the context of the original post:
The post categorizes the impact of dual spec between tank/healers and DPS and then states that DPS will be forced to heal. By doing so it is implied that DPS that heals as a second spec and a Healer that DPSes as a second spec should be treated differently.
My point is, that in basic abilities, the two are the same thing.
You then add, that some ex-healers don't want to heal because it is so stressful. How do you think a healer feels about that. Don't you think I would like a day off healing stress, or to roll on a DPS item without Mages, Warlocks and Shadow Priest complaining. Well, I do.
But you won't hear me complaining, because I view the games as a team effort, and I have specilized to be a healer, partly because that is what is needed in my guild.
What I won't accept is a DPS that can heal perfectly, to complain about switching role for the team.
In the end the story is about taking the perspective from individual considerations or from team considerations. The categories in the blog post come from the former.
I guess the question I have is:ReplyDelete
Are we now back to vanilla WoW, where all hybrids are healers?
- Anonymous7:38 AM, March 10, 2009
I think I will be causing drama when If I get asked to become a healer temporarily.. or inbetween trash pulls,when I polietly advise, that I will need a port to a city to respec - I won't get the use of a healing duel spec to justifying paying for it, when I could be using a pvp spec on a daily basis.ReplyDelete
In Vanilla WoW, only Warriors could effectively tank raid content. That is no longer the case.ReplyDelete
In vanilla WoW, DPS of hybrids couldn't stand in the shade of pure DPS classes DPS. That is no longer the case.
In TBC, shadow priests were the only mana battery class. That is no longer the case.
In vanilla WoW, this blog would probably have tried to convice the reader that Paladins could do more than spam FoL. The options of pally DPS wouldn't even have come up.
In between we had a period of priests complaining that they were no longer the healer par excellence and of warriors complaining that they were no longer be the tank par excellence.
I agree with the analyses above that apparently we will have 4 roles now; Tank, Healer, DPS and replenished. Blizz is doing their best to make all classes equal to their available roles, and compared to other mmorpgs they are not doing a bad job.
We are not back to vanilla WoW, we are going into 3.1.
Cingy, this blog existed in vanilla WoW. See the history, or the Paladin in Raids series on the sidebar for my views on paladins at that time.ReplyDelete
Second, someone who wants to primarily DPS is different than someone who wants to primarily heal. Look, no loot system is going to give them priority on loot for both roles. They'll have to pick one. If Torch of Holy Fire drops, a full-time paladin healer is going to get it, not some part-time Ret.
I'm not saying that Ret paladins are incapable of healing. I'm just saying that a lot of DPS hybrids will end up healing more because there is a healer shortage and the cost of switching is so low.
Healing is a forced obligation if you don't want to heal. And there are a fair amount of hybrids who don't want to heal, who are attracted to the other aspects of the class.
- Anonymous10:36 AM, March 10, 2009
I think I got extremely lucky in the guild I found - nobody is/will be asked, expected, or forced to respec, DPS "mains" will be given just as much priority as pure DPS, and so on. But sadly, I'm in the minority I think, and for most of WoW, I must sadly concur that you are correct, BoK.ReplyDelete
You make a good point, Rohan, but I believe what you are predicting is just an intensifying of the pressure that already exists for hybrid classes to heal that has always been there. Now it will be more acceptable to ask someone to switch because switching is cheaper and faster, so obviously it will get more severe.ReplyDelete
You are spot-on that guild leaders will promise they are recruiting healers, but not actually recruit them when the raids are going fine because you are stuck healing "for now". But I believe from experience(having played a raiding feral druid throughout vanilla wow and an enhancement shaman in tbc)that many dps hybrids will stand up for themselves and demand to be treated like any other dps for the most part.
My hope is that a social norm will develop in response to this attitude (as tends to happen in cases like this) where a faction who understands what it's like to be a dps who happens to be a hybrid class emerges and speaks up in opposition to this attitude. Eventually, this counter-norm will relieve a lot of the pressure.
Another social phenomenon we'll see: in PuGs, hybrids will simply say they haven't purchased dual spec (even if they have). In guilds, you'll have to work it out amongst yourselves. But the difference between dual specs and now will be smaller within the guild compared to the pugs. I know my guild bank pays for hybrids to respec to healing temporarily when needed.
- Anonymous12:38 PM, March 10, 2009
Well lets see, as a "pure" dps class, I'll say I will benefit from this the most. Cool, a healer can now be a tank, tanks are great for questing. Awesome, that DPS can now be a healer, he's never done it, but I sure want him on my Arena team! Yet myself, what can I do with my duel-spec? I can bring replenishment, IF that spec is still popular? Well, its the most popular spec right now, still is on the ptr. That little thing GC mentioned, replenishment being mandatory in future content, I guess you just didn't see that one. So with my duel-spec, I guess all that is left to do is PvP spec? Nope. I can solo old world raids no problem, I can run alts and guildies through almost any dungeon. Seems pretty useless for me. Oh yeah, and that same spec will keep my tier armor nice and shiny with my pet tanking and me not being able to pull a lick of agro.ReplyDelete
BASICALLY....You do not know what your talking about, or your opinion is very biased in the least. Good luck playing your toons in the future, I know I will, but I don't set boundaries for what they will/should be able to do.
- Anonymous1:08 PM, March 10, 2009
I guess it depends if you are in a progression guild or not. DPS for the most part (with some exceptions) don't make very good healers. It's not just the gear and spec, it's really a whole different skill set and way of playing the game.ReplyDelete
It's fine if someone is willing to put in the time to learn, but any DPS being forced to respec won't. Guilds that are really looking to progress through the content are going to still need to recruit true healers.
I see the dual spec as being used more to tailor groups to particular bosses. The biggest change is now having a high level Inscriber will be mandatory for every raid so people can respec before boss fights. Any character that can bring Replenish and Inscription is probably going to be insured a spot in any raid regardless of the DPS they can put out.
- Anonymous1:12 PM, March 10, 2009
I can't see "Hybrid DPS" being a loser on dual specs. I plan on having a PVE DPS and a PVP DPS spec.ReplyDelete
If someone tries presuring you into another role, just say "Oh, sorry man! I only have DPS gear!"
A lot of the time it doesn't matter if DPS make "good" healers or not. If you only have 5 healers online, and you need 7-8, the choice is between asking a couple DPS to shift specs or calling the raid.ReplyDelete
To be honest, I actually think this will affect the high end *less* than the low end. The high end is usually able to recruit more healers than lower guilds, and are more likely to have players capable and willing to switch styles. More likely to have players willing to do whatever is necessary to be successful.
As a druid tank who had a dk dps, who doesn't PVP (I looked him up on armory), need and win on the Essence of Gossamer (+111 stamina trinket), making me run H AN 17 times for the trinket, I feel I have the experience to say that when running anything, you get to roll on items your current spec is. Do NOT roll on tank items if you're DPS, just as I won't roll on healing items if I am tank atm.ReplyDelete
It's a matter of not being a wuss and clearly stating what you're willing to do in game and not.ReplyDelete
"I am willing to heal *FOR THIS WEEK ONLY*" etc. It's all about your limits.
For instance, my ret pally who was holy his entire existence until Wrath, will not be buying the duel spec, and will remain ret.
My DK will be buying it, so he can put out measurable dps while still tanking well (currently he's so mitigation focused, he never breaks 2k dps even when not the tank for the encounter).
My shaman will be buying it, as I like having a person I CAN heal on, I also like punching people to death.
Similarly on loot, we're probably going to make it so your main spec is whatever you are when the item drops. (Our system currently allows you to spend your "tokens" on whatever you want, spec only matters if no one is willing to spend tokens).
- Treason of Farstriders1:26 PM, March 10, 2009
As far a 5 man goes tanks get dibs on tank items, dps on dps items and heals on heal items.ReplyDelete
I think many casters are incorrectly calling heal items dps and vice versa now.
Also, many people don't seem to get that 2H melee weapons ARE DK tanking weapons as well as dps weapons.
devoted healers and tanks will get a pvp and pve specReplyDelete
Hunters, Mages, Rogues, and Warlocks will as well.
Warriors and DKs will feel obligated to spec tank and dps
Shamans and Priests will feel obligated to spec heals and dps
I predict amazing lameness for Druids and Paladins though and am willing to go on record predicting that most groups will be looking for the role that neither of your specs are. Upon seeing the discrepency [sp?] Pallys and Druids will go to the forums, where mostly Warlocks and Rogues will say "we got dual spec, what more do you want QQ?"
so let it be written, so let it be done.
Agree also, i think the pure dps classes need a buff to there dps as hybrid classes are topping a lot of the charts just now.ReplyDelete
Very much so, I'm still deciding which way my tankadin is going (ret or holy) for his offspec. The boomkin will be getting a resto offspec and the priest will become holy / shadow. Roll on 3.1!ReplyDelete
- Anonymous2:40 PM, March 12, 2009
I respectfully disagree.ReplyDelete
I don't think this will put any more pressure on dps hybrids at all. Any competent guild/raid leader would never force someone to do something they don't like. This is a game, not the military. For the good of the guild? One should not have to use that reasoning in a video game. Any leader flirting with this idea heightens the risk of fracturing the guild.
- Anonymous5:55 PM, March 12, 2009
That fully depends on the type of guild you are in. There are those who enjoy getting server first achievements etc where maybe some people will be "forced" into taking a specific type of dual spec, with the attitude being, "You knew what we were about when you first signed up, it hasn't changed, you will do what is best for the guild if you want to raid with us or you will be replaced". Is that guild leader going to fracture the guild? Doubtful, if that is what the guild is/has een about I would suspect that most of the members would agree if be a little more discrete in the telling (Unfortunately guild leaders can not always be soft and cuddly).ReplyDelete
It is a different, more hardcore approach to the game and this approach is viable and does appeal to many who are looking for others who are as dedicated as they are.
All that being stated, my guild expects us to have our own enchant, consumables etc so my second spec is going to be ret (yes I am holy for pve, have been for a long time). Doubt they will be asking me to tank any time soon anyways as they need my heals.


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Apple has previously enjoyed kicking Microsoft down with the famous Mac versus PC advertisement campaign. It was a giggle to see Apple attempting to be trendy against Microsoft's "boring" OS and PCs in general. Now it's Microsoft's turn to hit back and the company is continuing its Apple-bashing run with the above advert, putting the Surface RT against the popular iPad.
Comparing weight and thickness, as well as overall dimensions, Microsoft highlights all the added benefits that come with a Surface Windows RT tablet. Two examples being the integrated kickstand, enabling you to prop up the device without an overpriced accessory and the Office suite pre-installed that helps you get off the mark with opening and editing documents while on the move.
You've then got a full-sized USB port and $150 off the price of the 16GB iPad ($499), which is a considerable step up from the Surface RT at only $349. That said, Microsoft and OEM partners are struggling to move units and Windows RT has been an absolute pain for consumers (it's not full Windows 8 and caused confuson), not to mention some issues that need addressing. So while it's pleasing to see such advertising come out of Redmond, we can't help but wonder if it will make a difference.
Source: YouTube; thanks, Nishy, for the heads up!


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Cricket - session 2! Practising batting and fielding.
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text: CLEARWATER, FLORIDA CELEBRATING 2013: THE YEAR OF EPIC ACCOMPLISHMENT JANUARY 1, 2014 The Scientology New Year's Celebration, held in Clearwater, Florida, capped what can only be described as the most monumental year in Scientology. Over the course of the New Year's event, Mr. David Miscavige, Chairman of the Board Religious Technology Center, presented the historic accomplishments of 2013. Among them: The launch of the Golden Age of Tech Phase II, including the processing and training sides of the Scientology Bridge to Clear, 100 percent Standard Tech Guaranteed—DONE! SEE: Golden Age of Tech Phase II: The Scientology Bridge to Total Freedom The release of the revolutionary and transcendent Hubbard Professional Mark Ultra VIII E-Meter; The debut of 10 brand-new Scientology Enlightenment Films; The entirety of Golden Age of Tech Phase II materials available in 17 languages; All of which made possible the opening of the first Ideal Org in Asia, the Church of Scientology of Kaohsiung, Taiwan—with all auditor training materials now available, for the first time ever, in Chinese. SEE: An Ideal Org at the Gateway of the Chinese-Speaking World 2013 also celebrated the monumental completion of Founder L. Ron Hubbard's projects for the release of the never-before-available Super Power and Cause Resurgence Rundowns; Beyond which, 2013 will forever be remembered as the year we opened the doors of our 21st century cathedral, the magnificent Flag Building. SEE: The Majesty of Scientology: Our 21st Century Cathedral As is traditional for every Scientology New Year's celebration, the event further included presentations of outstanding accomplishments by stellar Scientologists bringing LRH technology into application, and thereby helping to create a literate, moral and drug-free world. For the final exclamation point on a year of epic accomplishment and victory, Mr. Miscavige announced the unanimous Supreme Court decision in the United Kingdom—a landmark triumph for Scientology and Religious Freedom. The 2014 Scientology New Year's Celebration, translated into 16 languages, was seen by Scientologists across more than 50 nations. So it was, the message reached the farthest corners of the Scientology world that this is, indeed, our time.


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Now that ROCOR is in communion with the MP can anybody speak about ROCOR's status with the EP?
It has long been the position of the Oecumenical Throne that the dispute between ROCOR and Moscow was an internal issue and that communion would be restored when and only when their was reconciliation between the two parties.
I'm not sure there was ever any official break in Communion between ROCOR and Constantinople. Constantinople has always been in Communion with Jerusalem and Serbia, and both these were always in Communion with ROCOR. Wouldn't Constantinople have just viewed ROCOR as part of Moscow (the way it does with the OCA?). I doubt that the name of the First Heirarch of ROCOR will be now entered into Constantinople's Diptych. I think it will remain as it is with the name of the Patriarch of Moscow.
So then ROCOR's attitude about the RCC - that they are heritics and "outside of the Church" - must now be dropped? If there is only One Catholic and Apostolic Church - and that Church has endorsed such positions as the Balamand Agreement - does it not follow that ROCOR has also now joined itself to such positions? In a word, it seems ROCOR has done a 180 on many of its hard line positions across the board.
Welcome to the mainstream.
How can you welcome him to the mainstream when you are far from "the mainstream" yourself? Anastasios
While I am opposed to the ROCOR-MP union, it does not follow that they had to lose these hardline (and in my opinion true) opinions, because there are traditional Orthodox in the Church of Greece and elsewhere.
I disagree with the propriety of "resisting from within" but people do this sort of thing all the time.
Here is what I don't quite understand about there being One Church. As per the RCC, the Balamand Agreement states that Rome is our sister Church, anathemas abolished, etc. The EP and other 'parts of the body' - through that agreement - also connects us to this doctrine, no? If I have this right then ROCOR contradicts itself by claiming the RCC are heretics, etc. If we still carry these positions after the unia then we had no business joining in communion in the first place. Am I over simplifying this or is it that cut and dry? Indeed. I had a long conversation with a Hieromonk from one of Elder Epraim's monasteries and this was his exact position "resisting from within". He said that the Greek Old Calandar people would have been a great help for the Traditional voice within the jurisdiction. Now - without their voice - more modern ideas prevail. His take on the RCC and EP situation is until we see an RCC step behind the alter or take Orthodox communion then the line has not been officially crossed. Unless of course RCC repents, then no problem. In my mind though - and I admit that I am no authority - is that if we are in communion with those who view the RCC as our sister Church then we share in this position as well. Do I have this right?
Don't believe everything you think.
The more I know, the less I know.
I may be a bit on the liberal side, but only slightly. I'm pretty much in line with what one can typically expect in a Greek Orthodox parish. At least I've never accused a priest of discrimination for not giving the Eucharist to non-Orthodox, but I can think of more than one parish council member from more than one parish who's made such an accusation. The norm in the Church, at least in America, may be a bit more liberal than the impression you are under.
Personally, I don't know why you are so concerned with Balamand. There was quite an outcry after this agreement came to light. It's a matter of quite some debate; many have rejected it outright. I don't know offhand which signatories retracted their opinions, but many prominent hierarchs have never accepted it; it really doesn't carry any weight as far as I can see. It's a little bit like the situation where all the Greek bishops went to the (false) council of Florence, and only Mark of Ephesus opposed the agreement with the Latin Church. When the bishops came home, all of the faithful rejected their acqueisence to the Latin conditions for reunion, and it all came to nought. I grant you that the reacton to Balamand does not appear to be as cut and dry as that to Florence, it has not been received with great aplomb; far from it. IMHO someone has been trying to alarm you. Of course, there are "traditionalists" who would disagree with me. Having said all this, the actions of the EP with regard to Rome make me quite nervous too. I would side with your hieromonk friend with regards to lines being crossed.
In my mind though - and I admit that I am no authority - is that if we are in communion with those who view the RCC as our sister Church then we share in this position as well. Do I have this right?
So then ROCOR's attitude about the RCC - that they are heritics and "outside of the Church" - must now be dropped?
It is out of the question to be dropped! It's the official stance of the Orthodox Church that we are the Church while Latins are heretics!How could you even have such a thought!It's the ROCOR's anathema of ecumenism that is in force in MP now! Just look what will be happening in future.
Of course there was no shared communion either time, but my guess, judging from his words and actions, is that Patriarch Bartholomew sees the Catholic Church much as the Catholic Church sees the EO and OO Churches---as true particular Churches of apostolic pedigree with (through the mercy of God) true sacraments, though not with the complete fullness of faith that would allow intercommunion. I'm sure he sees one of his chief roles as working for reconcilation between East and West, and I bet he considers our long separation to be 90% for political/cultural reasons rather than theological.
It's the official stance of the Orthodox Church that we are the Church while Latins are heretics!
It was a question that came to mind seeing as the EP does not consider the Latins to be heretics or outside the Church.
How could the EP consider the Latins heretics when we see the EP Patriarch and the Pope side by side, hand in hand, giving a joint blessing to the people?
The EP Patriarch addresses the Pople as "Your Holiness, beloved Brother in the Lord".
I could be completely wrong but if we are now in communion with the EP and the rest of the canonical Orthdox - and because there is only One Church - how can the actions of the EP not effect us?
In fact, in the act of canonical communion with the MP it clearly states that all past anathemas that would hinder us from uniting with the MPare now null and void.
Why than do EP baptize Catholic converts to Orthodoxy? Would they do that if they considered baptism of RCC valid? Wouldn't they consider baptisms of RCC valid if they had considered them the Church?
Hasn't this previous practice been long since repudiated?
This is just politeness and nothing else. I don't think he should address the Pope with "you bloody heretic". It is sufficient we know that, we don't have to say that face to face.
There is no official stance, because there is no official mouthpiece of the church as people usually like to point out.
4. Of these heresies diffused, with what sufferings the LORD hath known, over a great part of the world, was formerly Arianism, and at present is the Papacy. This, too, as the former has become extinct, although now flourishing, shall not endure, but pass away and be cast down, and a great voice from heaven shall cry: It is cast down (Rev. xii. 10). 5. The new doctrine, that "the Holy Ghost proceedeth from the Father and the Son," is contrary to the memorable declaration of our LORD, emphatically made respecting it: which proceedeth from the Father (John xv. 26), and contrary to the universal Confession of the Catholic Church as witnessed by the seven Ecumenical Councils, uttering "which proceedeth from the Father." (Symbol of Faith). ...6. This heresy, ......8. Yet the Papacy has not on this account ceased to annoy the peaceful Church of God, but sending out everywhere so-called missionaries, men of reprobate minds, it compasses land and sea to make one proselyte, to deceive one of the Orthodox, to corrupt the doctrine of our LORD, to adulterate, by addition, the divine Creed of our holy Faith, to prove the Baptism which God gave us superfluous, the communion of the Cup void of sacred efficacy, and a thousand other things which the demon of novelty dictated to the all-daring Schoolmen of the Middle Ages and to the Bishops of the elder Rome, venturing all things through lust of power. ...9. In a measure the aggressions of the later Popes in their own persons had ceased, and were carried on only by means of missionaries. But lately, Pius IX., becoming Bishop of Rome and proclaimed Pope in 1847, published on the sixth of January, in this present year, an Encyclical Letter addressed to the Easterns, consisting of twelve pages in the Greek version, which his emissary has disseminated, like a plague coming from without, within our Orthodox Fold. ...May, 1848, Indiction 6.+ ANTHIMOS, by the Mercy of God, Archbishop of Constantinople, new Rome, and Ecumenical Patriarch, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.+ HIEROTHEUS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Alexandria and of all Egypt, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.+ METHODIOS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of the great City of God, Antioch, and of all Anatolia, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.+ CYRIL, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Jerusalem and of all Palestine, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant. The Holy Synod in Constantinople:+ PAISIUS OF CAESAREA+ ANTHIMUS OF EPHESUS+ DIONYSIUS OF HERACLEA+ JOACHIM OF CYZICUS+ DIONYSIUS OF NICODEMIA+ HIEROTHEUS OF CHALCEDON+ NEOPHYTUS OF DERCI+ GERASIMUS OF ADRIANOPLE+ CYRIL OF NEOCAESAREA+ THEOCLETUS OF BEREA+ MELETIUS OF PISIDIA+ ATHANASIUS OF SMYRNA+ DIONYSIUS OF MELENICUS+ PAISIUS OF SOPHIA+ DANIEL OF LEMNOS+ PANTELEIMON OF DEYINOPOLIS+ JOSEPH OF ERSECIUM+ ANTHIMUS OF BODENI The Holy Synod in Antioch:+ ZACHARIAS OF ARCADIA+ METHODIOS OF EMESA+ JOANNICIUS OF TRIPOLIS+ ARTEMIUS OF LAODICEA The Holy Synod in Jerusalem:+ MELETIUS OF PETRA+ DIONYSIUS OF BETHLEHEM+ PHILEMON OF GAZA+ SAMUEL OF NEAPOLIS+ THADDEUS OF SEBASTE+ JOANNICIUS OF PHILADELPHIA+ HIEROTHEUS OF TABOR
The most official and recent action one could point to is the lifting of mutual excommunications between Rome and Constintanople.
There's the Internet world of hyper-Orthodoxy, and there's reality.
In fairness in Catholicism there have historically been irregularities as well.
...In the case of the 19th century encyclicals, they certainly have an authority behind them, but what kind? They certainly can't be considered dogmatically binding. Whatever their authority, it is certainly no greater than the Balamand Statement.
They always rebaptize.
Actually, this isn't correct.My Archdiocese is directly under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and receives Roman Catholics by Chrisimation (see under "Baptisms" in the Archdiocese Handbook).Nor is it the case in other parts of Europe: http://www.goarch.org/en/news/NewsDetail.asp?id=1213I know that in some parts of the New Territories, the Churches under the Ecumenical Patriarchate receive Roman Catholics by baptism, but it is not correct to say the EP "always" receives Roman Catholics by Baptism.
Well, I am flattered that anyone here could possibly see me as an authority on the Ecumenical Patriarchate and on the private opinions of HAH Bartholomew! Yes, it is only my guess.
It was a question that came to mind seeing as the EP does not consider the Latins to be heretics or outside the Church. How could the EP consider the Latins heretics when we see the EP Patriarch and the Pope side by side, hand in hand, giving a joint blessing to the people? On the EP website they don't call the Latins heretics but rather brothers moving towards "FULL" communion. The EP Patriarch addresses the Pople as "Your Holiness, beloved Brother in the Lord". I could be completely wrong but if we are now in communion with the EP and the rest of the canonical Orthdox- and because there is only One Church - how can the actions of the EP not effect us? We made no stipulations that the MP disconnect from the EP over their actions with the Latins. In fact, in the act of canonical communion with the MP it clearly states that all past anathemas that would hinder us from uniting with the MPare now null and void. Again, I could have an improper understanding of the above so please forgive me if that is the case. GiC, could you weigh in on this a bit more?
You and I are obviously living different realties.
If some of the Churches in the New Territories are receiving Latins by Baptism then they are acting contrary to the wishes of both the Synod of Constantinople and the Synod of Greece, both of which have affirmed that the Latins and Anglicans are to be received by Chrismation. The only place that is an exception to this is Athos, and their practice of rebaptizing Christians is not looked upon favourably by either the Synod of Greece or Constantinople but is tolerated out of economia.
Actually, this isn't correct either.There are also some Churches under Constantinople such as on the Island of Kalymnos which are permitted to use the Old Calendar and baptise converts from Roman Catholicism and Protestant Churches.
Could you provide the link and quotation of that particular paragraph, annulling anathemas, since I couldn't have found it?
I believe this to be a good assessment of the situation; however, my 'guess' is that the Bishops of ROCOR, regardless of their personal opinions, simply found this issue to not be of sufficient significance as to justify continued schism within the Church. It really isn't that big of a deal since, while Anathemas were lifted, communion has not been restored. The situation, from a canonical perspective, has not really changed all that's really occuring is rhetoric and I really dont se why anyone, regardless of their personal opinions, would be too worried about being indirectly associated with the rhetoric coming out of Constantinople which carries no significant canonical implications. To the ROCOR Bishops, this is probably a non-issue.
So then the lifting of Anathemas against Rome - while certainly not eucharistic communion - makes the statement that the EP no longer considers the RCC to be heretics, correct?
...but it is not correct to say the EP "always" receives Roman Catholics by Baptism.
...I specifically said anathemas against the MP.
I had a long discussion on the EP and Rome with a priestmonk at one of Elder Ephriam's monastery and he said that we are in the 11th and a half hour before full on eucharistic communion with RCC. His position is that if that happens without all of the established issues being settled, then that is a clear sign that the EP has "jumped off of the boat".
It may indeed be a statement that they are not to be regarded as heretics; but communion has not been restored, Rome is not commemorated in the dyptics of the Great Church of Christ. From a technical perspective it could be said that they went from being classified as mere heretics to schismatics. Regardless of the pragmatic implications, canonically speaking this is a step backwards for our relations with Rome as schism is worse than heresy.
Which ones? Could you name them? Their dates? Where they've been published?
I can't see any error in the chieromonk's attitude. That's what all Orthodox Christians believe. But Bartholomites are silent after having been publicly castigated by Mount Athos, Church of Greece, Russians, Bulgarians, etc. Silent as mice.
It is better to remain loyal to the Church and enter knowingly into Heresy than to break off and risk Schism.
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Bachelor Fridge is the game that is being made on the FunOrb site. It involves as fridge, as you may have guessed, and little is known about it as Jagex have said that it is one of thier more secret games. It has been mentioned in many threads but the most famous quote is "and an interesting game involving a fridge..." said by Mod Korpz on the end of a paragraph about the future of FunOrb. Jagex copyrighted Bachelor Fridge on 30th June 2009 (the same day they copyrighted Kickabout League). A development diary was later released on the 21st September! It read:
It's a great feeling to read through a brief, meet the game's developer, and see their enthusiasm bubbling over. As the audio developer for Bachelor Fridge, I discussed what the developer had in mind for their game and what style of music would be suitable. I really enjoy initial planning meetings, as they are great for generating ideas from a content and graphics perspective, as well as audio. It became apparent early on that this game was going to be a challenge and I was going to need some willing volunteers (I'll get to that part later). Writing pieces of concept music for the FunOrb games is interesting, as there is always a constant state of development, causing ideas to change frequently. The developer was looking for an underlying feeling of cute, yet gruesome; this was an intriguing direction and proved to be one that pushed my compositional techniques to a new level.
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I wanted an atmospheric, yet unobtrusive, theme for the fridge view, to make it work well with background sound effects such as the fridge humming (and I'm not just talking about a piece of cheese at the back of the top shelf!). We had already decided that the combat music would need a higher pace compared to the fridge-view music. As a result I ended up with a piece (or three) that showed the darker side of these cute little creations. There are some fast-paced drums, some heavy riffs and little incidental breaks to keep you occupied while planning your next moves. After the concepts were completed, I had another meeting with the developer about how the music was going to be used in the game. Ideally, the music should add to the quality of the game itself without taking anything away, and I'm constantly aware of this while working on any game.
After the initial music work had been completed, I began working on the sound effects for the game. Three main areas of sounds effects for FunOrb games include background, interface, and action sounds for specific interactions. For example, these included background sounds for the fridge and sounds for when you move your creatures. We also needed sounds for the creatures themselves and that was one of the best parts. My volunteers gave me funny looks when I told them "I need you to pretend to be creatures grown from mouldy food in a fridge" - I admit that I would have reacted the same way if someone had said that to me!
To get a better idea of what was needed, I identified that there should be positive and negative reaction sounds, as well as shy and aggressive versions. These would be used both in the fridge view and in combat. I allocated different food types to my sound effect volunteers and created the recordings. The sounds that were being made were great, although it did take slightly longer to record than usual because of all the laughter. When the recordings were complete I cut them down to size and processed them with EQ, compression and other effects to create a suitable sound set for each food type.
With the creature sound effects in development, I received a list of the combat attack and defence moves. The developer and I decided that we would combine the individual creature sound effects with combat sounds, meaning that a set of combat sounds needed to be made for the specific moves. By combining the combat sound effects with the creature sounds, we were able to make sure that even if two creatures had the same move, they would still sound individual, depending on the food type.
Well, that's about it from me, as I've got more gruesome sounds to make. It has been great to work on this project and I hope that you will really enjoy it too.
Mod Grace Audio Developer (Trying to create a flying poo sound)