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Stray Shots
The original Stray Shots was first published on June 15, 1890, by Post Chaplain Charles Pierce as editor. Annual subscription rate for 52 issues was a modest 50 cents. In the masthead, Pierce noted that Sunday services consisted of Sunday school at 9:30 a.m. and prayer, praise, & sermon were at 8 p.m., and all were invited and "every seat free."
The first issue asked, "…the cooperation of all, regardless of the question of rank." The columns of personals were as free to privates as to officers. The second and third pages were for local news items. The editor wrote that, "Short items and many of them will be our motto."
Many times the post chaplain was called upon to be the school teacher. Pierce was given approval by the Secretary of War, Redfield Proctor, to teach "…illustrated lectures in U.S. History…" It is intended that the present version of Stray Shots will provide an opportunity to post materials that promote the learning of history.
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The Letters of Andrew T. Fitch
Post Cemetery
Company B, Cheyenne Indian Scouts
The Letters of Andrew T. Fitch
After prior service with the Army during the Civil War, Andrew T. Fitch joined the Third U.S. Infantry in 1866 as an Acting Assistant Surgeon. He served on the frontier at military posts such as Forts Riley, Harker, Fletcher/Hays in Kansas; Stanton in New Mexico; and Camp Supply, Fort Sill, and the Cheyenne and Arapaho Agency in Indian Territory. The letters in the collection to members of his family reflect his observations concerning life at the frontier posts in the post Civil War era of the Indian Wars. He returned to civilian life in New York in 1880. 1.
Fitch was recognized officially as a citizen physician employed on a contract basis to supplement the medical officer needs of the Army. He was posted to Camp Supply by Special Order #73, Headquarters Department of the Missouri, May 11, 1869, after several years at Kansas posts. The outpost had been in existence only about seven months and the hospital consisted only of several large tents and a log hut. He remained at Supply on duty either in the post hospital or in the field with the troops until a transfer to Fort Dodge in April 1873. 2.
The following letters pertain only to Fort Sill, Cheyenne and Arapaho, and Camp Supply, Indian Territory, in what is now western Oklahoma. Personal family conversations have been left out with only those lines pertaining to military history and Indian affairs referenced. Editorial notes have been included to clarify events mentioned.
1. The original repository for the letters is the Western Americana Collection (WA Mss S-1638 F551), Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale University. Copies of the letters are on file at the Fort Supply Historic Site, Fort Supply, Oklahoma.
2. Post Returns, Fort Supply, National Archives and Records Administration, Microfilm 617, roll 1243.
Camp Supply, Ind. Territory
June 4th 1870
Dear Sister,
You will have read in the newspapers long before you get this that the Indians have been committing depredations in various places, but it is only within the last two or three weeks that they have shown any signs of hostility in this vicinity. The Cheyennes & Arapahoes have been encamped near us for a year past and have been fed with as much regularity as the soldiers. They have also been supplied with clothing and blankets. During the last fall and winter they have brought in ten thousand buffalo robes which they have sold to the traders for whatever they wanted. Some time in April the Indians were ordered to leave here and go to a place which had been selected for them about 100 miles east of this. The latter place was selected on account of its being a better farming country than this. Very few have gone there either because they don't like farming or because they have decided to go to war. Within two weeks five men have been killed. A few days ago they drove off all the mules belonging to a train of wagons loaded with provisions and blankets sent out here to be issued to them. The wagons were on the road from here to the new reservation and had gone about 40 miles. Two companies of Cavalry were sent out to save the wagons and goods and I went with them. We reached them in a ten hours march and found that all the mules had been driven off by the Indians as they were being driven to water. There was only one man with them and he was killed. We took down mules enough to bring the wagons back.
On Sunday last a man rode out after a stray mule. He did not return at night and the next day some men were sent out to look after him. He was found four miles out; dead and scalped terribly mutilated and an arrow through his chest.
At the half way station between this and Fort Dodge where the mail couriers stop over night, two soldiers were killed and another badly wounded a few days ago.
A party of Indians called at the log hut during the day, went in a friendly manner and asked for something to eat. The soldiers gave them what they wanted and the Indians in return commenced firing on them killing two and wounding another. A party of soldiers on their way from here to Fort Dodge then made their appearance and the Indians fled.
I have learned that Frank (illegible) has distinguished himself in several encounters with the savages. There is a classmate of his here. Lieut. Maxon who speaks of him as having stood high in his class. 3.
Your affectionate brother
3. The agency for the Cheyenne and Araphoe had been at Camp Supply from early 1869 to April 1870, when it was moved over 100 miles down the North Canadian River. The agency was named for the first agent, Brinton Darlington.
Hostilities had begun early in 1870 and would culminate in the Battle of Camp Supply, June 11, 1870, just a few days after the letter was written. Much of the trouble was actually caused by the Kiowa and Comanche. On May 29, warriors attacked a civilian contractor supply train of thirteen wagons filled with subsistence stores for the Cheyenne agency. One teamster was killed and fifty-eight mules were lost. Capt. Louis H. Carpenter, Tenth Cavalry, led the relief force that Fitch accompanied.
The station attacked was the Bear Creek Mail Station northwest of present Ashland, Kansas. Two soldiers were killed and the sergeant wounded. Only the timely arrival of a cavalry patrol saved the other men.
Carriker, Robert. Fort Supply, Indian Territory: Frontier Outpost on the Plains. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1990, pp. 42-52.
Camp Supply
November 30th 1871
Dear Brother,
I returned here on the 26th from Fort Sill where I went with a troop of Cavalry which was relieved from duty here and ordered to that post. Fort Sill is 200 miles S.E. of this post. We were 12 days making the trip there. I rode the whole distance on horseback. The distance made each day looks small but the Cavalry always walk their horses and it consequently takes about 6 hours to make 20 miles.
Fortunately the weather was pleasant most of the time though rather too cool for comfort. We had only one rainy day.
We made the 20 miles which it was necessary to make that day in order to get a good camp for the night, without halting. It rained from the time we left camp in the morning until we reached the camping place in the afternoon. We then had to wait an hour for the wagons to come up before we could pitch our tents. But we had plenty of wood and soon were drying our clothes before a large fire.
I remained 9 days at Fort Sill and made the trip back in 11 days in an ambulance walking the mules all the way to keep with the train of wagons. I am boarding with the Quartermaster who is married and like Quartermasters generally knows how to live. We had a Thanksgiving dinner today consisting of wild turkey, venison, mince pie, etc., etc.
Camp Supply, I.T.
April 4th 1873
Dear Sister,
I promised to write as soon as I could conveniently after getting back to this post. I arrived here on the 31st March and mail left – The following morning. Being to tired to write by that mail I (illegible) it until the next one which will leave tomorrow morning. I left New York on the evening of the 17th March by the Erie R.R. and traveling night & day with a delay of only a few hours in Cincinnati arrived at St. Louis on the morning of the 20th where I was obliged to remain until 10 o'clock p.m. The day passed off very pleasantly as I found a lady there who lived at Fort Dodge while I was stationed there. She took me in her carriage and drove me all about St. Louis showing me many parks of the city which I had never been before. One of the most interesting places that we visited was a splendid hot house built by a wealthy citizen and kept open to the public. It is filled with a great variety of beautiful plants, many of them imported from tropical climates. The hot house is situated within a fine park which has been laid out by the same gentleman and will be given to the city at his death.
After taking supper with the lady I returned to the hotel in time to take the train for Leavenworth which leaves at 10 p.m. arrived in the latter city next day at 2 p.m. and remained there until the 24th. Reached Fort Dodge in the 25th remained there until the 29th when I started in a four mule wagon with four soldiers for this camp. Had fine weather out with no Indians and no accidents and arrived here on the 31st the last day of my leave of absence.
It has been so hot here for the past two days that I have wished myself back at your house where I have no doubt the snow is still at least two feet deep.
Yr affec brother
Cheyenne & Arapahoe Agency
Ind. Territory
July 13th 1875
Dear Sister,
I wish I could start at once for home but it is out of the question. I should like to leave my present occupation and settle down somewhere where it would seem like home, but I see no prospect of doing so at present.
There are so many changes going on in the Army that one never feels settled.
Troops are stationed here for the purpose of protecting the people employed at the Indian Agency and holding in check the Cheyenne and Arapahoe Indians all of whom are encamped within a few miles of us.
We are all living in tents but orders have been given to provide some more comfortable shelter for the coming winter. A log house is the best quarters that those of us who are destined to spend the next winter here can look forward to. 4.
Your affec. Brother
4. The Darlington Agency occupied the north bank of the North Canadian River. The military camp may have been at the agency or on the location where Fort Reno (mentioned in the following letter) was later built in 1875 across the river to the southwest.
Cheyenne & Arapahoe Agency, I.T.
December 16th 1875
Dear Sister,
I should like to make you a visit – very much, but I don't think there is much chance of getting away again until I leave for good, which may be before long.
A military post has been established here (it has heretofore been only a camp) and buildings are now being put up for the accommodation of troops and the storage of the necessary
supplies. The storehouses are so nearly completed that the supplies have been moved into them.
One building large enough to accommodate about half the soldiers was occupied yesterday. The Cavalry horses were all got under shelter. The balance of the soldiers have put up log houses in which they can keep very comfortable during the cold weather.
The Officer's quarters are the last to be built. They are all now living in tents and will probably spend the winter in them. My quarters consist of two tents put together end to end, making one room 18 by 9 feet. The wall of the tents is 4 feet high and it is 4 feet high and it is 8 feet from the floor to the ridge pole. The tents are drawn over a frame on which they fit closely and are thereby kept from flapping as much as they do when secured by guy ropes. They are floored and warmed by a stove and have a door but no windows. We have a rough log house covered with canvas which we use as a kitchen and dining room.
I returned on the 4th inst. from Fort Smith, Arkansas where I had been as a witness in a case before the U.S. Dist. Court. The distance for the round trip is over 900 miles. More than half of which is by stage coach. The roads are very rough and the journey was by no means a pleasant one. I came back by way of Emporia, Kas. And being delayed there 24 hours had some photographs taken one of which I enclose.
Your affec. Brother
Fort Sill, Ind. Ty.
March 21, 1878
Dear Sister
I found your letter of Dec. 30th here on my return from Texas. A good many changes had taken place during my absence. The four companies of the 4th Cavalry which I accompanied to Fort Clark, had been replaced by three companies of the 10th Cavalry (Colored). General Mackenzie (General by Brevet); Colonel of the 4th Cavalry, formerly Commanding Officer of this post went to Texas with the companies of his Reg't and Genl. Davidson, Lieut. Colonel of the 10th has taken his place.
You may have heard me speak of Gen'l Davidson and his family when I was at home last or I may have mentioned them in some letter. They were at Camp Supply when I was there seven or eight years ago and as we were on the best of terms then it is very pleasant to meet them again. Gen'l Mackenzie is a bachelor but a very good fellow not withstanding. Gen'l Davidson has two grown up daughters who are fond of dancing and several hops have already been given principally for their benefit.
We have also been favored by a visit from an Episcopal Bishop who spent several days here and held service several times. He came on the invitation of Gen'l Davidson and we sent him off richer than when he came.
Not long after the Bishop left, there came along two Sisters of Charity. They came in company with the Paymaster, a very good time to come, as everybody then has money, and that is what the Sisters are after. They are collecting funds to build a hospital at Kansas City. They have got here and at Fort Reno 75 miles north, nearly $1000.
The weather is very mild. Our peach trees were in blossom three weeks ago and our gardens are nearly all planted.
Your aff. Brother
Fort Sill, Ind. Ty.
April 5, 1879
Dear Sister,
Your letter of Dec. 22nd was forwarded to me while I was in that section of Texas, lying west of the Indian Territory called the "Pan Handle." I was with some troops which had been sent out to look after Indians who had been allowed to go from their reservation, near this post for the purpose of hunting buffalo, and who were reported to be committing depredations on the settlers.
We had no difficulty in finding the Indians and soon learned that the depredations that they had committed were the killing a small number of cattle out of the vast herds now grazing in that section. They were unable to find buffalo in any considerable numbers and were driven by hunger to take the cattle which have succeeded them in that fine grazing country. The settlers however cannot be expected to feed the Indians but are afraid to refuse them anything they ask for. The officers in command gave the ranchmen receipts for all the cattle killed and bought enough more to feed the Indians on their way back to their reservation where they reluctantly consented to go. We were out fifty days and during that time occurred the coldest snap of the winter. It lasted however only about twenty days. It was cold enough here at the post to make ice nine inches thick and about three hundred tones were gathered before our return.
After remaining here a few days I went on another trip in the same direction stopping a few days at a Military Post in the Pan Handle. The first trip I made on horseback distance upwards of 300 miles. The second was made in a comfortable spring wagon and the weather being much milder, was more pleasant in every respect. On our return from the last trip, March 16th , we found our peach trees in full blossom. Our gardens have been made some time and some of the earlier vegetable such as radishes, onions, etc. are already up. 5.
Yr. Affec. Brother
5. The referenced post was Fort Elliott in the east central part of the Texas Panhandle. It was built in 1875 to complete the four posts that controlled the Indian Territory region.
Post Cemetery
The present Post Cemetery at Fort Supply was established in September 1871 because the 1869 post cemetery near the Beaver River had washed away in a flood. The new cemetery, on higher ground, was used by the Army for soldiers and civilians until the post closed in 1894.
In January 1895, soldier's remains were removed to the Fort Leavenworth National Cemetery, an official practice upon the closing of posts. One row of headstones, non-military personnel, marks the only identifiable graves from the military period.
During the period 1895-1913, area residents were buried in the old fort's cemetery. The Western State Hospital interred patients there until 1964. There are about 970 patients in the main plot and in an additional section to the west.
On November 27, 2000, the Cheyenne tribe re-buried the remains of a man known to archaeologists as "Sandman." His remains were discovered in 1972. He is believed to have died between 1835 and 1845.
Historic Headstone Information
Wife of Ben Clarke
Died Oct. 5, 1875
Age 22 years
Alex Mitchell
Died June 17, 1877
Aged 22 years
James Quinlan
Died June 12, 1877
Aged 32 yrs. Q.M.
Pat McLoughlin
Born County Roscommon
Ireland, March 17, 1878
Aged 36 years
Bad Face
Co. B Indian Scouts
Original Burial
Estimated 1830-1840
Reburial Nov. 27, 2000
Company B, Cheyenne Indian Scouts
Sheridan's Scouts
In the early 1880s, cattlemen from Kansas and Texas had leased large areas of the Indian reservation lands in Indian Territory for grazing. The agent for the Cheyenne and Arapaho and some tribal members believed that the money from the leases would benefit their people economically. However, by mid 1885, agitation by an anti-leasing faction, an agent's incompetence, and the desperation of reservation life threatened to spark a general uprising. General Philip Sheridan and Army troops were sent by President Grover Cleveland to assess and gain control of the situation. Sheridan determined that both the cattlemen and the agent should go. It was apparent that there were never enough regular soldiers to adequately patrol the region to keep the peace. Because there were never enough regular soldiers to patrol the large western Indian Territory reservations effectively, he devised a plan to organized three companies of scouts composed of native men. They would help keep the peace while earning an income. American Indians had long been engaged by the military to act as scouts and guides, most often during periods when the Army actively campaigned against other hostile tribes. During the relatively peaceful1880s, Cheyenne men enlisted for a variety of reasons. Perhaps most important was that the old ways, although suppressed, were still a potent influence. Many of these men were veteran warriors that had fought both red and white enemies. The new units provided a way to demonstrate the virtues held in traditional esteem and required for status in a warrior culture.
On July 20, 1885, Indians, former warriors, gathered at the Cheyenne and Arapaho Agency at Darlington across the North Canadian River from Fort Reno. Approximately 120 men were enlisted as scouts for a six month duration of service. Three units were formed of forty men each with Company B stationed at Fort Supply. Companies A and C were at Fort Reno and Fort Elliott in the Texas Panhandle, respectively. The units were to see service as cavalry attached to a particular post but not affiliated with a certain regiment at that post.
Peace Keepers
The primary function of the Company B scouts was to patrol the Cheyenne and Arapaho Reservation and the Cherokee Outlet to the north in which Fort Supply was located. They reported intrusions by non-Indian trespassers intent on cutting timber, selling whiskey, or the theft of Indian livestock. Along the Western or Texas Trail, the scouts were detailed to keep the great cattle herds up from Texas on the trail moving north toward the Kansas border. As part of their duties, the native horsemen carried dispatches, hunted game, chased deserters, and if they spoke English, served as interpreters. Around the posts, the men of Company B, as well as the other two scout units, helped the regular soldiers in the garrison with the more mundane tasks in the daily post routines. They stood guard duty, drilled as soldiers did, cut firewood, and even assisted in training horses.
Captain Jesse Lee, an Army officer as well as a Cheyenne and Arapaho agent, stated in his 1886 report to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs that, "The enlistment of Indian scouts,…by the military authorities was a wise step. They render good service because disciplined, and instead of being termed "dog soldiers" for the tribes, they are soldiers of the government." Dog Soldiers were an honored and powerful Cheyenne warrior society responsible for policing the tribe in the old days.
A Glimpse of the Past
Company B and its kindred units are little known except for passing references in a few publications, archival materials, and a handful of images. However, a composite story from these sources reveals a unique cultural and historical experience from Oklahoma's past. The scouts of Company B come alive through the images produced by both white and Indian contemporaries.
Photographs collected by the first Company B commanding officer, John Brereton, provide a view of Indians as soldiers. As depicted in the accompanying photographs and a scout's drawings, the men are shown uniformed, equipped, and armed the same as regular U.S. soldiers. The image of First Sergeant Stone shows him replete in dark blue wool, five brass buttoned fatigue coat with the chevrons of his rank as the top non commissioned officer in the company. The brim on his black fatigue or campaign hat has been cut down but retains the hat cord around the crown. He wears a web ammunition belt with an "H" shaped brass buckle. The weapon in his grasp is the 45.55 Springfield carbine issued to cavalry troops.
The image of the three young Cheyenne warriors as soldiers illustrates several variations of the standard issue Army clothing. All three men have the regulation fatigue or campaign hat that appears to have the brim cut down. Big Wolf's coat is the brown canvas duck stable coat. Corporal Darlington wears the dark blue fatigue coat with five brass buttons and the chevrons of his rank. As a concession to their cultural heritage, the three men have not been required to cut their hair in the fashion of white soldiers.
The scouts were allowed to provide their own mounts for which they were paid a monthly stipend. The photograph of the company mounted in front of the post and canvas stable shows the majority of mounts to be the smaller, painted Indian pony. The McClellan saddle and the other Army standard issue horse tack gave a military appearance to the Cheyenne war ponies. Mounted on the dark horse in front of the ranks is Lieutenant Brereton.
Enlisting as a scout had a definite economic advantage. Opportunities to earn an income for the support of a family and other dependents were scarce on the reservation. Army pay and rations were much better than the hand to mouth existence that many experienced after confinement to the reservation. The men were paid according to their rank – for example, $13 a month for a private - when the Paymaster rolled into the post. They were rationed an equal amount of food from the post's Commissary Department. Unlike most regular soldiers, the men were allowed to have their immediate families accompany them to their post. The families put up their lodges outside the bounds of the fort. Rations were drawn for their families from the Commissary or from the Cheyenne and Arapaho Agency at Darlington near Fort Reno. Occasionally the men had their extended families in camp, which placed a burden on the military. The image of the scout camp shows the canvas lodges pitched on the open prairie east of the post. Two uniformed scouts and a traditionally dressed woman can be seen in camp.
Warrior Artist
One of the scouts, Squint Eyes, was an artist whose work portrayed significant periods in Plains Indian life. His traditional-style ledger art drawings show a unique perspective on Plains Indian life and an unexpected view of Indian and Army interaction. Made between 1886 and 1887 at Fort Supply, his drawings show the Cheyenne scouts hunting wild game along side Army officers and civilians. Hunting was a favorite pastime of officers and enlisted men, whether white or Indian. The scouts acted as guides but also participated in the events depicted. The art is rendered in typical Plains Indian style with the emphasis placed on culturally important details that in this instance show a quite untypical appearance. The warrior artist depicts himself and comrades dressed in their Army uniforms with the arms and accoutrements of service while performing an activity that was also basic to traditional Cheyenne life.
Similarly, the photographic image of Squint Eyes and his two female cousins shows the juxtaposition of two very different cultures. The warrior who had once fought against the Army now wears the blue uniform while the young women are dressed in traditional finery.
Scout Commanders
Indian auxiliary units were often commanded by junior grade line officers, as was the case with Company B. First Lieutenant John J. Brereton, 24th Infantry, commanded during the first years of the unit's existence. He graduated from the U.S. Military Academy in 1877 and was assigned to field duty with Company H, 24th Infantry, one of the four African-American regiments in the Army. His brother-in-law, Lieutenant John Bullis, achieved fame as the leader of the famed Seminole-Negro Indian scouts along the Texas and Mexico border.
The photographs of the scouts of Company B were located in the Brereton collection at the United States Military Academy Library at West Point, New York. A private collection contained a notebook in which he entered comments relating to the activities of the scouts. Given were their names, family members, food rations, and clothing allowances. He also kept a listing of Cheyenne words indicating an attempt to learn their language. Brereton was one of those rare officers who went beyond the call of 19th Century duty. He attempted to bridge racial gaps and assimilate African Americans and American Indians into the white military. Brereton's collection sheds much light on a heretofore little known aspect of Cheyenne history.
White Man's Road
The scout units enlisted from the Southern Plains tribes in Indian Territory were the precursors to a larger assimilation experiment undertaken by the Army. In early 1891, the Army ordered that Troop L from each of eight cavalry regiments and Company I of those Infantry regiments in the West were to be reorganized as all Indian units. The intent was to mold Indian warriors into disciplined American soldiers and speed integration into the dominant society. Recruiting was attempted all over the west among many tribes with varying success. The experiment met with resistance not only from many Army officers, Indian Bureau bureaucrats, and other whites but also from the new Indian soldiers. Unlike the scouts of Company B, the men of the new units were required to live in barracks. As with regular soldiers, family life was discouraged. The Indian soldiers resented being moved away from their home regions when regiments were transferred. These new outfits came into existence in the waning days of the Cheyenne and Arapaho scouts. By the mid 1890s, both the scouts and the regular Army Indian units were all but gone.
Company B and the other two companies initially raised in late July 1885 demonstrated their worth in the field augmenting regular Army troops in Indian Territory into the early 1890s. Theirs was a unique story in American history, a success when measured against other attempts to include Indians into Anglo-American life at the close of the frontier.
Primary Sources
- National Archives and Records Administration, Microfilm Publications
- Post Returns
- Fort Supply, microfilm 617, roll 1244
- Regimental Returns
- Twenty-fourth Infantry, M 665, roll 247
- Fifth Cavalry, M744, roll 53
- Post Returns
- Oklahoma Historical Society, Research Division
- Cheyenne and Arapaho File
- Cheyenne and Arapaho Papers
- Cheyenne and Arapaho Letter Books
- Indian and Pioneer Papers
- Oklahoma State University, Government Collections
- Report to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, 1886. Report of Captain Lee, 114-124
- United States Military Academy, Special Collections & Archives, USMA Library.
- John J. Brereton Collection
Secondary Sources
Carriker, Robert. Fort Supply, Indian Territory: Frontier Outpost. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1990.
Heitman, Francis B. Heitman's Historical Register & Dictionary of the United States Army From Its Organization, September 27, 1789 to March 2, 1903.
James, Louise. "Company B". Woodward Daily News, May 7, 1989.
Internet Links
National Anthropological Archives, Smithsonian Institution
Squint Eyes: Artist and Indian Scout,
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/scout Tichkematse: A Cheyenne at the Smithsonian, http://nmnh.si.edu/squinteyes/squinteyes.htm


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text: Need some help. Want to know which dog blind I should buy for upcoming trip to North Dakota. Dog is only 55 lbs and I've looked at a few field blinds for dogs just not sure which direction I should go. Gotten mixed reviews on everyone I've looked at. What do y'all think? Let me know your opinions wanna order soon so I can train her within week or so.


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I think the only limit China faces is in natural resources. In order to grow at say 8%, every year, it need to produce an average of 8% more stuff every year. This means that for true development, its industrial output must grow at an average of 8%, manufacturing output at 8%, real estate development grow at 8%, etc.
All this ultimately means is that China needs to import stuff, i.e. iron, oil, soy beans, etc at an average of 8% per year.
Now how exactly does it keep getting natural resources and keep importing more every year from then on? It needs access to markets where it can sell stuff to earn money so that it can use that money to keep buying more stuff from other markets.
Thus it is about keeping markets open, either existing markets or new markets. A lot of those resources are located in unstable regions of the world. Oil in the Gulf states and minerals from Africa. It needs to focus on safely getting resources from these places so its output can keep increasing. As long as it can do that it will be able to grow smoothly.
"Now how exactly does it keep getting natural resources and keep importing more every year from then on?"
It can't, no country can. The environment in China is already in terrible state - witness protests in Ningbo over the weekend.
China has 1.3 billion people, all of whome understandably want washing machines, air-conditioning and cars, but the resources don't exist in China, they must be imported from other countries.
But the people of those other countries need the resources for their own use. So China must decide whether to force other countries to give them what they need (as seems to be happening with the fish, energy and minerals under the South China Sea), or China must adopt another model of development - as other countries must.
I think China is at an inflexion point. It needs to decide if it is going to 'play by the international rules' (insofar as they exist!), or start to use it's muscle to get what it wants.
None of this absolves the West for its past sins: Britain spent 200 years taking resources from others without so much as a 'Thankyou', and the US screwed up in Iraq, so the West is not blameless, but China's recent behaviour is starting to look scary to it's South East and East Asian neighbors.
"Thus it is about keeping markets open"
That may not be easy in the future.
The British failed to prevent protectionism in the US after 1861, and had to tolerate protectionism in Germany in 1878 (think France and other continental powers followed too). That was at the height of Britain's economic and naval power, and a still expanding imperium.
The US never completely opened up foreign markets to its interests, see the European Union and the rise of Airbus and Ariane rocket launch services, or the rise of Japan, S. Korea in the post war ear and now China over the past 2 decades.
There is always the possibility of protectionism rearing its head, formally or informally (non-tariff barriers based on health or security), or circumstances where voluntary quotas or other arrangements are forced.
Conversely there is the real issue of asset bubbles blooming and then popping, and then exerting a big drag on economic development. That has happened in all kinds of economies, and can be serious.
However, China still has quite a bit of manpower to draw upon. Not sure it is like the West in the 1960s, when the rural populations were pretty much tapped out for feeding labor needs of urban/industrial economies.
Not sure this is completely true:
"Britain spent 200 years taking resources from others without so much as a 'Thankyou'"
The British hadn't been in much of a position to just take things from manny people since the end of the 1950s (so that is 50 years discounted).
Otherwise, Britain stands out in world history for being the first country to industrialize. That was largely a domestic development between the 1770s and 1840s (agricultural revolution, large coal deposits, a culture of mechanization with lots of tinkerers, self-financed with a relatively mature financial institutions, relatively better political stability).
Welcome to China,I know you has disguised as a Burmese for a long time in the TE.but why not continue? if you want to make mischief between China and Myanmar,you need learn more.right? or else,the real Burmese will hate you,because Burmese actually don't like Muslim and don't care about anything about Zang Nang(South Tibet).
Come on,real Burmese are waiting for you.
I agree,
Tocharians are a different breed!
Most "Mianmarese" are pretty naive (or perhaps they are just too easily bribed) and "clueless" about China's "Lebensraum problems". China needs an enormous amount of natural resources Tibet, Sinkiang, Zhang Nan, South China Seas, etc. (or shall I say core interests) are still not big enough to satisfy China's greed. Besides, China need "Raum"(room) for immigration (only the rich and powerful upper-class Chinese can emigrate to Western countries!)
By the way, speaking of Mian-dian, I heard that Premier Jiaboa Wen's wife, Beili Zhang (not Nan Zhang lol), who trades in precious gems is quite involved in "smuggling" jade and rubies out of "Mianma". She deals with diamonds too. See here
Kailai, Beili, ... Powerful women in China, no?
as a chinese ,I hope it`s new start .
What does the US or the west hope or want China to be, a partner or a rival?
After disintegration of the USSR, China has been targeted by the US as a rival. A rival, rather than a partner would drive American forward. The very existence of the former USSR made tremendous contributions to America in terms of its high-tech and munitions industry with the Star War as an example. Without a potential rival, how could the US keep its military power? Without a potential rival, whom could American president candidates make their blames on? That's why America is in hope of returning to Asia or rebalancing Asia.
Can demonizing China unravel all puzzles resulting from gloomy economy in the US? Should Chinese people choose their own government on the will of the western democracy? Should the one party rule in China be modeled after the bipartisan or multiparty rule in the US or the west? I don't think that would be in compliance with the determination of American politicians who are conscious of the importance of opponent rather than a partner as the blood in their vessels is aggressive and antagonistic. It's hard to imagine how the US would come off without China as its objective to contain.
Change of leadership within CCP is as regular as that in the US administration as terms of service runs out. Peaceful transition of leadership within CCP will be secured based on its own party constitution. Those leaders have learned from their past how to avoid making any drastic turn from its basic principles, to rule the country by law. And Chinese people are equally convinced that they can never follow western consensus when it comes to the way of development. They would have to remain a rival rather than a partner as they are from a culture quite contrary to that of the west. It would be lucky for us Chinese to be a competitor in this diversified world on equal footing.
The first generation leadership in China is represented by Mao, who is both great and romantic. He is great in that he won the civil war, drove Chiang Kai-shek to Taiwan and then founded the New Republic, and that is attributed to his devotion to revolutionary course to make changes to China. He is romantic in that he launched the Cultural Revolution on his persistence that there should be a group of revisionists within CCP to land China to a capitalist society, and that mass campaigns would stifle all factors possible to strengthen adherence to old orders overnight, and that is ascribed to his stubbornness as he was born into a peasant's family without any law to follow in the then China. And of course, his contributions to the country surpass what he did wrongly to his people.
The second generation leadership is represented by Deng Xaoping, who is described as architect of reforms in China after he resumed office. The fundamental changes he brought about in China, among other things are emancipation of mind and criterion to judge the truth. They are preconditions for success of reform and open-up policy. There have been disputes on Deng before the Cultural Revolution and in reform right now.
The third generation leadership is represented by Jiang Zeming, whose 'three representatives' are practiced during his rule to reiterate the role the party plays and the goal of the CCP is aimed at. considering cropping-up crisis internally and externally, Hu Jingtao, who put forward 'scientific concept of development', is going all out to keep sustainable development on the basis of shifting situations both at home and abroad.
Where and how could Mr. Xi direct China to? Break away with or stick to the past? No can could imagine how difficult it is to issue a new reform policy in China as it surely is to involve in various interests groups. Take pension system for example. Company employees and public servants enjoy quite different pension when retired, which was on the reform list a few years ago but remain unsolved until now. Government official properties declaration system is another example to provide evidence that it is a hard nut to crack when it comes to CCP high officials and those concerned. Could Mr. Xi launch another revolution to eradicate all evils as Mao did years back? Mr. Xi is expected to, first of all, carry on reform forward both in economic and politic fields the same time maintain social stability. Then he is hoped to quicken reform in development model with its focus changed from state investment to private investment to avoid overlapped investment. Mr. Xi is also expected to change the mode of distribution of social wealth with its focal point from monopoly industry to service sectors to realize social justice. Mr. Xi is expected to…
The last thing he is expected to is make a turn to the west.
"The first generation leadership in China is represented by Mao, who is both great and romantic."
He was brutal and savage and egotist and womanizer as well, just another modern Chinese emperor.
He achieved his desire at the cost of 70 million Chinese.
He was a Stalin in China.
That is all.
Well Mao was womanizer and so is the American soldiers in Okinawa.
According to your comment, they are Stalin in Okinawa too.
That is all.
So, I read through the all of the comments, they are more subdued these days, for a China post. Westerners have found a voice in their creative destruction, Chinese yet to figure that out on a macro economic basis. It says to me that there is real realization that many see China being hurt somewhat by dysfunctional politics in its two largest, most important customers. There's no need to fret too much, NEO, like everyone else, fell on his first jump.
All of the world's great nations/blocks are intimately linked to a degree never before achieved. There will be better days. It really is a great moment of opportunity (fear + hope) that China will have a smooth leadership transition that has great ideas in store for transitioning the economy away from fixed capital investment and export-led growth.
@ tocharian
Stop your filthy mis-information and anti-China propaganda
(1) contrary to your lies--- Since 1978, no Chinese leader has called for revenge against the "Evil West" (your words) --- as you had alleged -- You made it up
(2) You like to accuse Chinese leaders of sending their children to Harvard Oxford. And why shouldnt anybody send their children to good American Universities
HELLOOOOO ... This is the 21st Century...this is Gobalization
At least-- the Chinese leaders who are sending their children to the best Western Universities are broad-minded and open-minded people
It is you ,who is a narrow -minded bigot -- infact --you are also a small-minded bigot
My advice to you -- open up your mind and open up your heart
MAYBE then --- you Burmese will modernize faster instead of going out to kill the black-skin ROHINGYAS Burmese
You guys (Burmese) are racists killers ---
My point=-- why dont you Burmese put a little love in your hearts instead of just hatred for Rohingyas and hatred for Harvard, Oxford
@ Tocharian
You had already posted a million times --- repeating your criticisms of Chinese leaders sending their children to Harvard , Yale, and Oxford
You are so obsessed with this
Your bitterness reflect envy and jealousy
You must be a miserable small-minded little Burmese bigot
Sounds like you are running scared.
If you weren't insecure about your "facts" you would not be concerned that someone is expressing their right (in the west, not China) to free speech.
May be you can't even identify lies and facts! :D
You should be less harsh with Burma. While it is true that Burma has had it's problems, recent indications are that they will eventually, through ongoing and rigorous reforms, join the roster of SE Asian civilized nations.
It is even a foreseeable event that one day Burma will join the soon to be formed Cooperation Alliance.
When you dont know what you dont know, dont educate others about freedom of speech.
In China, if government tries to hide something, people will know or know government is hiding something.
In "free" world, people are clueless. Like now in US, neither Obama nor Romney talks about budget cliff when they talk about economy, and no poster even mention it like the issue doesn't even exist. Why? Because their minds are completely controlled by "free" media.
Mingze and Guagua still at Harvard? (not to mention Bo's elder son, who works on Wall Street and Xi's sister who lives in Canada)
I actually don't understand why China thinks that they have to "beat the West" and hope that other "non-Western" countries will all be natural allies in what Chinese believe to be an "epic struggle and historical revenge against the evil West". That's just too much hypocrisy for me. Most of the "elite" in the world definitely prefer the freedom of the "West". Even the "rich and powerful Chinese" are sending their kids to Western Universities and "moving" their cash to the West (just in case!). Is it all just a game? It is indeed very telling the way the "rich and the elite" operates in the world: the "top-ranked" Universities in the West, such as Harvard and Stanford have admitted a lot of "princeling-kids" from the top-ranked Politburo members of the Chinese Communist Party! Such blatant unashamed Sino-Orwellian double-tongued, double-faced hypocrisy (from both sides) is hard to swallow for the 99%.
Deng's famous quote about the colour of the cat can be interpreted in the following way: In order for China to become a "superpower" it has to go through an economic and technological "Great Leap Forward" (actually wading across a shallow river by feeling the slippery stones is not such a great revolutionary leap like the cultural revolution lol). Deng wanted technology transfer from the West. Russian communism wasn't really helping the Chinese economy too much (except for giving Chinese ballet lessons!) Well, in the 90's, many people in the West (especially CEO's and Wall Street guys in the US) are so naive (or perhaps they were just out-smarting themselves?) that they thought they can make a "quick buck" out of the huge Chinese market and labour force, but look, who's got all the cash and the manufacturing jobs now? China, not Ohio! That's actually not even the main thing for China. What they really wanted was technology transfer and they got it big time (through offering cheap labour). Perhaps they would have gotten that (by hook or by crook) someday anyway, but the faulty economic and political decisions made in the West expedited those Chinese goals. China has always been a rather selfish and ethnocentric country and we will have to wait and see what the economic, political and environmental effects will be, of this immense amount of cash and technology transfer for the rest of the world. After giving away valuable and fundamental know-how and technology for short term gains (little nano-blips in the stock market), it is hard for the capitalists in the West to complain that the Chinese are now capable of cloning (or reverse-engineering as the Chinese would call it) any high-tech product, including weapons and space technology, from the West. On top of that they got a lot of cash. Jobs, Cash and Technology transfer. A triple whammy (or triply "shellacked" as Obama would say lol).
I actually don't understand why China thinks that they have to "beat the West" and hope that other "non-Western" countries will all be natural allies
huh? what on earth are you talking about?
who want to beat the West? who said that?
beat Japan, yes.
Who cares about Japan or Korea or wherever they use chopsticks to eat and characters to write, LOL. I'm talking about ballet (that some young Chinese now think is "classic Chinese Peking Opera"), stealth fighters (the one that went down in Bosnia?), about Dong-Feng 21D's, about Huawei, about CNOOC, ...
China should have higher ambitions than bullying around in the local neighbourhood. "Beating" people living on some small island (including some inhabited islands lol) off Asia is "peanuts" compared to undermining the influences of Hollywood (Richard Gere, Avatar, ...), the entertainment industry (the "Lady Gaga's" of this world), the Internet (remember the scent of jasmine from Tunisia?), etc. Forget about Russian Ballet, Marxism and Leninism, Mao Zedong Thought, Deng Xiaoping Theory, Three Represents (Jiang Zemin), Scientific Method, Opening-Up, Reform Outlook, Emancipating the Mind, blah blah blah, ... and all that Sino-Orwellian double-speak. That's old hat. Mingze Xi (taught at the reactionary Harvard Kennedy School of Government) would agree with me!
You must know what great wall was built for.
You try to picture Chinese people as predators, don't you?
As long as the anti-China Burmese terrorists/sleepers still hiding in Canada, China need to beat them all.
Do you really believe the path you are on was chosen by the CCP or the Chinese people alone?
Pew Global Attitudes Project
are you satisfied or dissatisfied with the way
things are going in our country today? (China)
2012, 82%
2011, 85%
2010, 87%
2009, 87%
2008, 86%
2007, 83%
2006, 81%,
2005, 72%
2002, 48%
One question to you : do you respect the opinions of 1,000,000,000,000 Chinese people?
I don't think you do, all you care is what you want. So stop talking about democracy and freedom of speech, it is really disgusting.
With regards to freedom of speech, saw this in the PRC Constitution:
"Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration."
So some of those 1 billion plus Chinese folks thought freedom of speech was important enough to write down.
I never said that China is a free country. What i said is that there is no freedom of speech in "free" world either, because rich-own media completely controls what people will say.
For example, no Americans talk abou budget cliff, because media keeps silence on it. Even president candidates dont talk about such urgent issue.
Every Chinese citizen have the right to say or do whatever he/she wants, -- as long as:
(1) it does not threaten the sovereignty of the Govt
(2) it does not advocate the overthrow of the Govt through an armed uprising/rebellian
(3) it does not threaten public order or public security
(4) it does not break the LAWs of the Land
etc etc
Michael Dunne
Assange would like tohave free speech too. :D
American can't stand ONE Assange!
Except article 35 of the constitution doesn't itemize those points.
There is Article 54 though:
Article 54. It is the duty of citizens of the People's Republic of China to safeguard the security, honour and interests of the motherland; they must not commit acts detrimental to the security, honour and interests of the motherland.
Not sure what your response is supposed to mean. I just pointed out that technical aspects of liberal democratic culture are enshrined in China's own constitution, like article 35 concerning freedom of speech.
Seems they go on further, with article 41:
Article 41. Citizens of the People's Republic of China have the right to criticize and make suggestions to any state organ or functionary
Then there are a number of other rights written in the document that look quite western on the surface:
Freedom of person
Home being inviolable from unlawful search or intrusion
Freedom of religion
Now in places there are some hedges, like saying religion can't be used to cause political trouble or be under foreign domination
What does Assange have to do with the Chinese constitution?
Or as they used to say, what does that have to do with the price of tea in china?
And is Assange in the US? Seem to recall he is in Britain (ok, technically on Ecuadorian sovereign soil/flat maybe) and wanted by the Swedes for an investigation into a sexual matter.
Nice try at a canard though.
Michael, Assange has no business with China, but please, if you read the economist, then you thing beyond the box. You know that the Sweden request for Assange came as a political favor to the USA. The crime he is being accused for, came too late to think that it was a coincidence.
The reason I post on TE is not to defend what is wrong in China.
I post on TE because I want to expose what media and journalists try to hide from people.
If Chinese had known what would happen in 50s and 60s, would they have overwhelmingly supported CPC in the civil wars between 1945 and 1949?
Political change is very very costly, most of time the damage can't be reversed. So people must must must have clear understanding what they are after, especially not used by others.
Old Chinese wisdom tells us that to understand something, you must know the both side of it. "Free" media and journalists never mention or try to hide the negative side of western democracy because western democracy is their favorite system under which they are the judged and will never be punished for any wrong doing.
In my opinions, "free" media and journalists have done incurable damages to west society, they destroyed two key ingredients of a society : collective efforts and scientific management.
I am not saying that censorship in China is good, but currently I believe such censorship is good for China. As those pro-democratic people in China and in "free" media have no respect to the opinions of majority in China, what these people are doing now is messing up China so to get rid of CCP. it tells me that the freedom of speech they are after is for themselves, not for Chinese people. So I don't see any reason to be with them.
These so-called freedom fighters are happy about anything bad in China, sad about anything good in China. For example, one of "freedom" fighter insulted the first female Chinese astronaut, one even claimed that to kill 200 million Chinese so to realize democracy.
If CPC is bad, these people are 10 times worse.
What does Assange have to do with the Chinese constitution?
Or as they used to say, what does that have to do with the price of tea in china?
And is Assange in the US? Seem to recall he is in Britain (ok, technically on Ecuadorian sovereign soil/flat maybe) and wanted by the Swedes for an investigation into a sexual matter.
Nice try at a canard though.
You talked about Free speech.
You really believe Assange has a real sexual case, and CIA is not behind the whole thing !?
I do believe Iran has NO nuclear weapon so as USA/Israel too!
Considering it is Sweden pressing the case, no.
Otherwise, it is all speculation. So a non sequitur based on speculation and hearsay is interjected in the conversation here, which concerns the Chinese Communist Party.
Otherwise, seems folks could brush up on their politics 101 for the US at least. The drafters of the Constitution and their opponents knew things didn't work perfectly. So there wasn't a pretence to perfection (despite what Glenn Beck says), and you get all sorts of odd incidents that crop up.
However, the system is structurally biased towards protecting free speech over those who may wish to stifle it, whether it was the gag rule in the 19t century, or the Espionage At of 1917, for the 20th century.
Otherwise, it is all speculation. So a non sequitur based on speculation and hearsay is interjected in the conversation here, which concerns the Chinese Communist Party.
It is all speculation.. WMD anyone?
US Military exercises with SEA countries, including Japan and Korea, shifting 60% military power back to Pacific region! Anyone!
No, American has just too much money to burn and too much old weapons/bombs to destroy (must destroy anyway). So may as well put it all in Pacific ocean (in China) :D
So going from the Assange case that was brought up as a non-sequitur, to move on to WMD and the US posture in SEA?
Nevermind Japan and Korea may not be considered South East Asian countries, and that they have been having exercises with the US military for decades?
So I take it you admit to having know idea what went on in a room between Assange and his partner?
The most impotant matter for China is its economy. If its economy is healthy and is growing, then everything is and will be fine. If its economy stalls, then everything else will be bad also.
95% of the population in China are happy with whatever system of government that can ensure a rapid and sustained increase in the GDP and sustained improvement in their welfare.
So, the worst fear of the Chinese government is and must be that its economy fails to meet the expectation of the population.
Keep the economy on the right track must be the main objective of the government.
Let the western people squabble among themselves about political systems like they used to squabble on the sex of the angels while their economies go to shambles and their countries disintegrate as their economies slide down.
Look at Scotland, look at Catalonia. Democracy will not save the disintegration of the UK and of Spain.
So, the worst fear of the Chinese government is and must be that its economy fails to meet the expectation of the population.
Keep the economy on the right track must be the main objective of the government.
Look at Scotland, look at Catalonia. Democracy will not save the disintegration of the UK and of Spain.
Western democracy will 100% sure disintegrate China.
If the economy is in trouble but at the same time, the economy in US is even in bigger trouble ...
That is why I said that the future of western democracy in China is in the hand of US.
Thank you Jean Michel; you have the impartial honesty to state things as they are. There are so many baseless comments based on hostility and racism. No government in the history of the world has ever achieved what Chinese government has; lifting 350 million people out of poverty over two decades. From a backward agricultural economy, it has been transformed in to industrial power house.
China first phase was to industrialize the eastern coastal regions; export orientated economy with manufacture located near the ports. Now that the export market is shrinking because of economic stagnation of the west, China is stimulating the home consumption based on approximately 300 million middle class. Figure show that the economy is expanding at about 7%. China has the best buildings, the best railways, the best airports, and the best state of the art infrastructure in the world. Its future demand for air transport is bigger than the entire world put together.
China is investing in the land locked western regions to improve the infrastructure prior to industrialization; the country has no lack of funds for the purpose. The object is to industrial this region to serve the oil rich central Asian markets and improve the income of the western region to bring it in line with the rest of China.
Last thirty years have shown that China has achieved all most all its planned objectives while pundits in the west year after year predicted its economic crash.
god and boodle bless the world
yes, god bless the world.
to to sandaman:
'(laugh) clap x 10 times'
you are japanese and a right winger in your posts in my view.
this is not an article about japan, why are you keep bugging this article with non-constructive posts?
china has problems, tons of them, but they are no laughing matters. and at least they are not 'wang guo lu/ 亡国奴' that you japanese are unfortunately.
being still unrepentant, today japan is still an occupied ww2 loser and a vassal of the us. japan surrendered to the us and also surrendered to china in nanjing. japanese can only blame their militarism and sky-king who got japan into such a dire state.
I can sympathize you that japan is not yet and independent or free nation, but do keep your hope high and someday japan will be free, uncle sam allowing.
China is the best run Country and its Citizen can be proud of. I wish the New Leadership all the Best Fortune in the World.
Of course I like to see Bo Xilai back a.s.a.p.
"I wish the New Leadership all the Best Fortune in the World. Of course I like to see Bo Xilai back a.s.a.p."
Mutually exclusive, no?
It would seem the Chinese commentators are under the false impression that America wishes them harm or failure.
Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is that America has always had a great desire for a partner. A strong partner who could help it in the myriad tasks that lay before the dominate nations.
There are only a few nations in the world who are up to those tasks, China being one of those nations.
And now America's greatest fear will be that China cannot find the strength and courage to rise above smallness and relinquish it's grasp on old and tired ideals.
The world and America awaits a strong secure China, but only if that strength is based on freedom and democracy.
The fact is that the goals and the philosophy of China and of the US are totally different.
China believes that cooperation with other countries is the key to economic development and the welfare of the people; it also believes that that it must not interfere in the internal affairs of another country; it believes that each country has the right to decide its own way of governing itself; and it does not believe that a country should invade or bomb or impose sanctions on other countries for reasons other than another country is threatening or attacking it.
The US, on the other hand, wants to dominate the world, wants to impose its will on other countries and is prepared to use force, deceit and hypocrisy to achieve its aims. The US does not hesitate to invade, kill, torture and bomb other countries for any flimsy reason whatsoever. It also believe that it has the best political system which all other countries must adopt. It does not even hesitate to use assassinations as a tool. Finally, the US believes in having and in using vassal countries, which it calls allied countries, in order to dominate the World.
It would seem the Chinese commentators are under the false impression that America wishes them harm or failure.
Ask Jon Huntsman.
I think Chinese people like freedom and democracy too, but they are clearly understand what is double standard of freedom and democracy. That is the point of misunderstanding between Chinese people and western people.
"double standard of freedom and democracy"
Explanation please.
Perhaps you should read the May 7 2012 Wall Street Journal article by 洪博培 .
In that article you will find what amounts to the common American attitude toward China.
Do not let your paranoia over the desire of a man to stretch his legs with a walk lead you to false conclusions.
Pls, to convince Chinese that west politicians and media want to see china getting better is as hard as to convince westerners that there is free press in china.
It is crime when state media misleads or lie to people.
It is human right when rich own media misleads or lies to people.
That is one of them.
Compare what happens in Tibet to that in kashmir.
Any problem in China is linked to political system, while the same problem in countries like india is not because of system.
Do you know Newsweek was sold for one dollar while Chinese buyers were willing to pay millions?
The U.S. does not want an "equal", it wants to be the "top dog".
The U.S. does not want someone else to take the top position because it will undermine it current position. (e.g. currency reserve status, etc) This made the U.S. uncomfortable because it means that its values and systems are being challenged.
The post-WWII system was solely designed by the U.S.. The rebuilding of Europe via Marshall Plan, rebuilding post-war Japan, the former Bretton Woods System of currency exchange, the current use of the U.S. Dollar as the reserve currency, etc. This all were made unilaterally, to the benefit of the U.S.
A U.S. without top dog status means it can no longer impose these things on the world. It will lose its privileges and thus its relevance.
"A U.S. without top dog status means it can no longer impose these things on the world"
I think Germany was quite happy to have billions of US dollars 'imposed on it' after WW2.
In my opinion that was the act that most exemplified all that is (was?) best about America.
OK George W. Bush can be compared to a smelly fart from a supermodel, but hey, nobody's perfect.
"It would seem the Chinese commentators are under the false impression that America wishes them harm or failure.
Nothing could be further from the truth."
Chinese commentators interprets correctly that "America wishes them harm or failure". Since Obama implements its "Pivot back to Asia" policy, America has been stirring up trouble by instigating South Eastern Asian countries, Australia, India etc to oppose China. All the recent tensions in the South and East China Sea, Korea and Diuyu Islands etc can be traced back to the US.
The truth is that there will be peace and stability in Asia if the US "pivots back to America"
"there will be peace and stability in Asia if the US "pivots back to America"
The above comment and post overall claiming plots on the part of the US comes off as an exercise in finger pointing, deflection and wishful thinking.
I think S. Korea was unhappy with China for support for N. Korea, especially with several incidents, like the sinking of a ship.
I believe Vietnam and the Philippines had longstanding issues with China over claims to islands in the South China Sea. Not sure those can be traced backed to the United States.
The issue with the Senkaku Islands flamed up in 2010, over an incident between a Chinese fishing boat and a Japanese Coast Guard boat. The resulting tensions and actions of the Chinese had little to do with the US. Seems like overreaction took place.
Not sure the US is involved in any way with Tawang in India. That is a pretty esoteric issue for China and India to settle.
The problems may not lie with the stars and stripes, they may more likely lie with you.
May be best that China reflect on its own behavior, and not repeat errors of Wilhelminian era German diplomacy (which managed to alienate just about everyone, friends and foes alike).
I found these comments interesting. His lineage gives him a strong base of support among China's ruling families, rubber stamp and social media.
Communism is not democracy. It only works when opposition is stifled.
George Orwell best described communism in Animal Farm. Seems he is increasingly correct in modern china as well.
As more and more people within China connect and freely express themselves the weaker the state propaganda macine becomes. As economic growht continues the ambition of the individual over the majority will continue.
As China's workforce continues to age, without massive immigration (which serves the \US well) chin'a economic miracle will start to fade.
A continued move away from global production and na return to local production will also impact China.
My wish is that China does as it has always done in the west. In ever city in the West there is a China town. Isolated, not integrated, you know its there but have no idea what goes on there. Visit it when desired, otherwise forget about it. Communism and human rights in China made it morally bankrupt, social media, aging workforce and capitilam will ensure its demise.
Take it easy, Chinese posters
This TE article shows no difference from what have been published on this site reporting China, and that's the approach western newspersons take toward China, dubious, envious and resentful.
China will go on its own track as it has done during the past three or so decades to carry out reforms both in economy and politics, albeit the progress of the latter was slower, considering the priority in China is to keep social stability.
Chinese people are becoming more and more aware of the importance social stability and governing the country by law. Chinese people are expecting a clean and transparent administration that secures sustainable development. What TE or correspondences of the magazine are eager to do is to stir up discontents among readers both in China and the rest of the world toward China and its government based on their biased assumption that the rising China implies China threat. The better way to offset China Threat is demonize China in hope of regime change within China, which is a mission impossible of course.
Take it easy, my countrymen. Don't you think it an opportunity to practice your English?
"China will go on its own track as it has done during the past three or so decades"???
Do you really believe the path you are on was chosen by the CCP or the Chinese people alone?
Perhaps you should remember that it wasn't until America gave permission and it's blessings that China was able to join the greater world economy.
There was an agreement made, though I doubt the CCP realized how serious that agreement was. An agreement between America and China.
Now is the time to pay the piper, as they say. Only through thorough liberalization of Chinese society will the dream be allowed to continue.
An agreement between America and China.
Can you be more exact what agreement was that?
May be this is just your wishful thinking of Washington or MNC?
You mean the American Liberation Army that have freed Iraq?
' American permission and it's blessings"...
Do you think the world affairs are decided by the US alone. Do you remember which president of the US of A paid his official visit to China to normalise relations between the two countries? Do you know how much the US borrow from China to keep the country going?
Not the sort of agreement that a lawyer could put his finger on and point to.
More of an unsaid agreement that both parties were aware of. The Chinese would slowly move their country away from being a communistic threat, while in exchange America would allow China to become less of a pariah nation and more of a partner nation.
The man who began the rapprochement with China was no less than Richard M. Nixon. A more bitter enemy of communism you couldn't find. Do you think he went into China without eyes wide open?
It would seem the size and complexity of the world is beyond your comprehension.
Your arrogance will land you nowhere.
The teacher is not the one who is arrogant. His property is knowledge.
It is the impertinent student who is the owner of arrogance. And ignorance as well.
Are you a teacher who knows nothing but Yankee alone?
That means nothing was agreed. Thanks...
A teacher who doesn't know what he doesn't know is not a good teacher.
The US is not "borrowing from China". China has a mercantilist policy, and it accumulates massive amounts of dollars as a result of all the stuff it exports to the US. All the Treasury bond purchases by China are simply the other side of the trade. It is called a mathematical identity. If China dumped its Treasuries for say, gold, silver, oil, whatever, the value of the Renminbi would soar out of its band, and China's exporters would go BK.
Hu Jintao regime has been a big failure! Sure the economic was good, but the growth momentum would have happened anyway with or without him! To judge him, we must look at his slogans when he came onto the stage initially! Domestically it was "harmonious society", and internationally it was "Peaceful Rise"! 10 years on, China's society is anything but harmonious, a more representative slogan would be "corrupt and lawless society". Looking outward, Hu Jintao bought into the success of its economy and take on a very aggressive stance to reflect its new economic power, and a more representative slogan would be "Aggressive Rise" and he wants everyone to know about it!
I remember 10 years ago, Hu asked his scholars to made a study of what was known as "The Rise of Great Civilisation", a study of a collection of 10 countries which made it great! He asked all his top officials to study it, and the study was even made into DVD for public consumption. Well, I have often wonder over the course of last 10 year did he made the wrong conclusion from that study? One of the 2 nations that was part of the study was Germany and Japan before the world wars!
most conflict happpened due to land acqiuisition, a necessay step to build infrastructure, a key for economic development.
I guess you are saying why not let hundreds of millioms of people staying in poverty.
Ya, this is exactly what I am saying, well done!
Don't they pay you by the quality of your posting rather than just by per posting? They should grade all comments by China cyber troopers and pay bonuses for good quality argument instead of just posting counter posting for the sake of it!
CHINA IS AS STABLE and Solid as the "Rock of Gilbratar"
CHINA overcame the
(1)"Great Cultural Revolution,", 1965-1976
(2)the Chinese Civil War,1945-49
(3) the China Japan War, 1935-1945
(4)the 1911 Revolution, 1911
(5)the WarLord Era 1913-1925
(6) the 8-European Powers War 1870-1900
(7) the Opium war 1860-70
China not only overcame each of these crisis -- but emerged stronger each time
Compared to these crisis --- today's China is as stable, peaceful and calm and confident and UNITED as ever
The 1.35 billion patriotic Chinese people love their Motherland with all their Hearts
CHINA --- jiayu,,.. be strong ...be confident
A song of the PLA--- "THERE are no hardships we cannot overcome"
BATTLE CRY of the PLA..= " Love the People...SERVE the People"
clap x 10 times
You seem to skip over the Great Leap Forward in the late 1950s; and the Taiping Rebellion in the mid 19th century.
Interestingly, you also seem to overlook the Chinese Civil War in the late 1920s and first half of the 1930s between the KMT and Communists?
As well as the Japanese incursions into China in the 1890s and early 1900s (they did seize an entire province of Taiwan, eventually snagged a sphere of influence in Manchuria, helped put down the Boxer Rebellion, etc.).
Resilience is not always the same as stability.
But one thing China has shown over the past two thousands years is amazing resilience in the face of internal disorders, massive natural disasters, and foreign invasion and occupation.
As a Westerner living in Beijing, I can tell you that your dear China is anything but stable. In fact, I think your own shoddy internet connection could tell you that. Outside of the ancient Forbidden City, this city has poor infrastructure and little, if any, cohesion.
The "stability" you boast of is simply the subsistence of a population... of course an entire civilization won't evaporate so long as the majority can acquire sufficient food and water. (Unfortunately, this isn't the case for all Chinese, is it? But of course, you failed to mention the hundreds of thousands living in dire poverty.)
Sure, this time around you're content with the fact that your paper-ballot "vote" elected so venerable a patriot, but even he cannot please everyone. And what happens, you ask, when people cannot agree on leadership? Political unrest. No, such feelings are not permitted by your government, are they? What could that lead to? More political unrest. And that? Revolution, in one way or another. For your sake and mine, I hope it's a peaceful one. Until then, rest up little commie--you'll need all the sleep you can get.
Is there really any doubt that the current and ongoing state of affairs, political and economic, will lead to collapse and chaos in China?
The CCP can't micromanage this sort of environment. The latest news bears this out and it can only get worse.
Oh well, as long as the Lapsang Souchong keeps flowing I will be just fine. I do pity the average Chinese on the street though.
you would have been creative if you say that 30 years ago
You claim to pity the...
No need for your insincere "Crocodile tears"
Save your pity for yourself
Nobody else wants or need your pity
China wasn't important to America 30 years ago, so why would it hold interest for me?
Still, ignoring your crude attempt at insult, you haven't refuted my assertion. Looking at what is happening these days can you not see what is likely to be ahead?
Now is a time for deep reflection for the Chinese people. The tide can go either way, though considering human history it is not likely to go as planned.
Or if you like, you can follow wudang wushu's example and sing foolish songs.
First Xi, now Wen, who (Hu) next? Western media must be having busy days.
The whole world is deeply immersed in the vast ocean of greed, corruption, nepotism and cronyism. It is a matter of degree, not of kind. This ugly tenacious human nature. (btt1943, vzc1943)
TE says: 'Vaunting the best, fearing the worst'
isn't that a good advice to heed for any leadership?
whether you run a country the size of China or USA, or a country club, you need to vaunting the best and fearing for the worst always.
just look at their brochures, be it from a country or from a country club, they always tell you their best. what they don't say is what they are fearing of.
how all of a sudden TE is in the know of what Mr. xi is fearing of is beyond comprehension, and logic.
I cannot see the logic in that statement. Why will liberal democracy lead to collapsed economies
It paralyzes government. last 25 years was saved by scientific breakthrough.
Democracy, simply speaking, is majority rule, minority must respect the decisions of majority. Human right means that minority don't have to be submissive to majority. They contradict to each other. So for them to coexist, there must be compromises, that is almost impossible unless the people are worry-free and government is rich. If there is no compromise, government will fail to "deliver".
So this paradox explain to phenomena : one, democracy usually carry out much better in developed countries than in developing country; two, democracy (and human right) doesn't deliver.
Democracy and human right are anti-science.
In a country with limited resources, scientific management is crucial. But, science is in the hands of very few people, otherwise most people would becomes scientists. So democracy almost surely will prevent government making plan scientifically; even government does make plans scientifically, the principle of human right will prevent the plans carried out as planed.
The most significant example is that almost all the democratic countries are in debt, and this is after 2 decades of development. Were the policy-makers in democratic countries more stupid than those in China ? obviously not
In India, people complain that government has no long term plans, Are Indian more stupid than Chinese ? I don't think so. Nearly 10% of NASA engineers are Indians, and their success in US is obvious. But when every "activist" has a say on planning, scientifically planning is impossible.
"democracy almost surely will prevent government making plan scientifically"
Nuclear fission?
Steam engine?
Internal combustion?
First to land on the moon?
The Telephone?
All invented in 'non-scientific' democracies. I don't know what they pay you, but I'm sure it isn't enough. Turning out nonsense all day long must really suck.
That was Industrial Revolution and Capitalism's result along with free market!
Your nonsense is paralyzing the government in US, the best way to enforce the power of CCP in China.
What is the most important thing in US now? Budget Cliff.
and no media talks about it, therefore no people care about it. Whose freedom of speech?
India also has Five Year plans. The country is now approaching its 12th Five Year plan 2012/13 onwards. They are probably less visible because India is still growing from a very low base, relatively. And corruption may be stymieing some of the plans.
Read here:
And here:
Haha, anti-science! That's a good one. Scientific development with China characteristics!


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Moderator: General Mods
Floodseeker wrote:What is going on Spud?spudthedestroyer wrote:dunno, guess someone f*cked it...
http://forum.dead-donkey.com/viewtopic. ... &start=600
Vae Victis wrote:Couldn't find this thread yesterday:Vae Victis wrote:On FH.
For some reason, the server won't come up again. Even after a remote powerreset.
And cause of work I can't take a look at it sooner than this weekend.
Will update with more news when I have it.
dinky wrote:uh...according to the post count under your name, it's your first post.
I used my new admin powers and tried to install a patch for the email notifier plug-in, and shit went haywire. making matters worse, the whole db needs to be rebuilt or restored, and the backend was cross-hatched with segal's comics site, so now they're both fuct. needless to say, I'm avoiding IRC for a few days until this all boils over.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


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I am writting here since my ticket has been left open for days - no reply.
it is:
Support Ticket #12763608
Subject: could not boot the server
05/05/2014 10:35 AM EDT Ticket Created
And today is 14 May and the access to my VPS is still not restored.
It is 10th day as the ticket open and all the support team did is just switched the ticket status to "Updated Ticket: Work in Progress"
For my last question: "Hello, please let me know if it is any possible to get it back. Thank you." - I didn't even get reply, now is third day.
Any comments, thank you!
P.S. I am client of VPSlink for about 4 or maybe 5 years (or maybe more).


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Courtesy of GoGriffs.com
Canisius senior guard Billy Baron has been named to the 2013-14 All-MAAC First-Team, the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference announced today. Baron is an unanimous selection to the first team, as voted on by the league's 11 head coaches. This marks the second-straight year he's been named to the All-MAAC First Team, making him just the third player in program history to earn first-team all-conference honors in back-to-back seasons.
Baron finished the regular season by averaging 24.4 points, 5.2 assists and 5.0 rebounds per game for the Golden Griffins, which earned the No. 4 seed in next weekend's MAAC Championship with a 20-11 overall record and a 14-6 mark in conference action. Baron, who ranks third nationally in scoring average, is just the second player in school history to score more than 700 total points in a season, and he is the program's single-season record holder for 3-point field goals, as he has knocked down 98 shots from behind the arc this season. His 161 total assists makes him the third player in school history to have 150-plus assists in back-to-back seasons, and his 5.2 assists per game average ranks second in the conference.
Joining Baron on the All-MAAC First Team is Sean Armand and A.J. English from Iona, Manhattan guard George Beamon and Quinnipiac forward Ike Azotam. These five players are now eligible to be named the 2013-14 Pepsi MAAC Player of the Year, which is also voted on by the league's head coaches. The Pepsi MAAC Player of the Year will be announced at the MAAC Postseason Awards Show on Friday, March 7 at the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame.
The men's basketball team will play No. 5 seed Siena on Saturday, March 8 in the MAAC Championship quarterfinal round at MassMutual Center in Springfield, Mass., with tipoff is set for 2:30 p.m. The game will be broadcast live on ESPN3 and the audio call can be heard on AM-1400 in Buffalo and through the Golden Griffin Broadcast Network at GoGriffs.com.


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Friday was a lovely low-key evening. I am apparently 90 years old and decided to purchase a Happenings book. You know, those books full of coupons to random places?! So we picked a restaurant from there and went out to dinner. We went to Millcreek Bar and Grill. Kind of a random, empty place but the food was decent. After wards we worked on catching up on Scandal!! Does anyone watch that show?!? We're hooked!
Saturday morning I worked a volunteer shift at the Junior League Women Helping Women closet. It's a great service provided to women entering the workforce. It's essentially a store full of wear-to-work type clothes where women can come pick out outfits for interviewing or jobs, free of charge. I'm always reluctant to go on a Saturday morning, but in the end I'm always glad that I went. It makes me appreciate things that I generally take for granted.
Saturday afternoon I hung out with Jeremy and then we went to a wedding reception Saturday early evening. The reception was at these really cool gardens! It was fun to walk around and see all of the plants and trees. And of course it was fun to see the new bride and groom! After the reception we went to dinner. I finally won one week of our workout bet!! Hooray!! So my dinner pick was the Bohemian. It's a great Czech/German/brewery type place and their food is AWESOME. I've discovered that the breweries around here generally have really fab food!
Afterwards we went home and watched Aladdin! After seeing the play on Broadway, we decided we need to have an Aladdin marathon and watch all 3 original movies! One down, two to go!
Sunday morning I made a not-so-delicious breakfast. I was really craving lemon ricotta pancakes but the recipe I used was just not great. I will have to continue my quest for a good recipe!! Church was good. Sunday night we had family dinner and played Phase 10. Sadly I came in second place to Jeremy, who pretty much dominated the entire game. It was a great Sunday!
Up Ahead
The week should be a fun one! My cousin Chris from NYC is coming to visit, Allison and her fam will be in town, and Jeremy is moving!


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Graeme Rocker is a professor at Dalhousie University in Halifax
Editor's note: Part I of this series appeared as a Humanities article in CMAJ; parts II , III and IV appeared on CMAJ Blogs.
At six months and counting, life has mostly returned to normal, although persistent heaviness in dependent parts still creates intermittent discomfort. A long bicycle ride with insufficient padding had me worrying about Fournier's gangrene for days. Wearing old lycra with my new contours, I did a brutal number on one upper thigh and side of scrotum. ...continue reading


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Sportswriter Shea Serrano and friends convene to take your questions on basketball (and other things) to celebrate the release of Serrano's new book.
Panelists, from left to right: Shea Serrano, Jason Concepcion, Zach Lowe and Rembert Browne
In "Basketball (and Other Things)" Serrano takes you on a basketball-lover's journey through the highest highs of the game, to the lowest lows, and everything in between. He examines the most critical points in the game's history, such as the peak of MJ's career as the greatest player of all time, and breaks down some of the most beloved and heated debates in the fandom. Which NBA championship was most critical to the association's history? How do you rate shots from best to worst?
Regardless of whether you are a seasoned veteran, or a greenhorn just discovering the game, this authoritative anthology of legends, what-if's and stories is sure to earn it's place on your bookshelf from the first chapter.


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Patriots Gs Mankins, Connolly inactive, Colts LB Mathis returns after missing 5th game of year
FOXBOROUGH, Mass. – The New England Patriots are without starting guards Logan Mankins and Dan Connolly against the Indianapolis Colts.
Mankins missed Sunday's game with calf and ankle injuries, while Connolly has a back problem.
Tight end Aaron Hernandez is missing his sixth game, and third straight, with an injured right ankle and safety Patrick Chung is inactive for the fourth straight game with hamstring and shoulder problems. Tight end Daniel Fells and defensive linemen Jake Bequette and Justin Francis also are inactive.
For the Colts, linebacker Robert Mathis returns after missing his last game with a back injury. Inactive for Indianapolis are tight end Coby Fleener, cornerback Vontae Davis, linebacker Mario Harvey, offensive tackles Bradley Sowell and Tony Hills and nose tackles Josh Chapman and Martin Tevaseu.
Online: http://pro32.ap.org/poll and http://twitter.com/AP_NFL