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8(1)Her Majesty may by Order in Council make provision for—
(a)a man and a woman to marry each other in any country or territory outside the United Kingdom, and
(b)for a same sex couple to marry in prescribed countries or territories outside the United Kingdom,
in the presence of an authorised person, in cases where the authorised person is satisfied that the conditions in sub-paragraph (2) are met.
(2)The conditions are that—
(a)at least one of the people proposing to marry is—
(i)a member of Her Majesty's forces serving in the country or territory in which it is proposed that they marry,
(ii)a relevant civilian who is employed in that country or territory, or
(iii)a child of a person falling within sub-paragraph (i) or (ii) whose home is with that person in that country or territory, and
(b)the people proposing to marry would have been eligible to marry each other in such part of the United Kingdom as is determined in accordance with the Order.
(3)In a case where one person ("P") treats, or has treated, another person ("C"), as a child of the family in relation to—
(a)a marriage to which P is or was a party, or
(b)a civil partnership to which P is or was a party,
C is to be regarded for the purposes of sub-paragraph (2)(a)(iii) as the child of P.
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|Credited cast:
|Venkatesh Daggubati
|Veera Venkata Raghavaiah (as Venkatesh)
|K. Viswanath
|Veera Venkata Raghavaiah
|Rest of cast listed alphabetically:
|Gundu Hanumantha Rao
|Taraka Rama Rao Nandamuri
|(archive footage)
|M.S. Narayana
|Venniradai Nirmala
|Aahuthi Prasad
|Kalpana Rai
Raghaviah (K. Vishwanath) and Ram Mohan Rao (Ranganath) are brothers-in-law. But Ram Mohan Rao is at loggerhead with Raghavaiah because of a family feud. Raghavaiah is nearing his 60's and it's time for his Shastipoorti ceremony. Upon the request from his wife, Raghavaiah decides to invite (for the first time) his daughter-in-law and grandsons who are staying in Bombay. Raghu (Venkatesh) is the alienated handsome grandson of Raghavaiah. After arriving at Ramapuram from Bombay, he faces embarrassment from the members of Raghavaiah's family. There he meets Manga(Simran). Manga and Raghu play few pranks on each other and slowly they fall deep in love. But they never admit their love to each other. With his unconditional love towards the family members, Raghu wins the confidence and hearts of them. Later on Raghu comes to know the real flashback behind the feud between the families of Raghavaiah and Ram Mohan Rao. Erra Babu (Srihari), the fiery son of Ram Mohan Rao, is another victim in ... Written by Suchindra Palem
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Thanks very much everyone - sorry I haven't managed to answer all of these. Anything I didn't answer, please email to us via the Contact function on our website and we'll try to get back to you.
I am Wendy Jarrett, Chief Executive of Understanding Animal Research, a British not-for-profit organisation which aims to provide factual information about the important role of animals in research. I have been in the role almost two years, going on TV, radio and giving quotes to newspapers in an effort to dispel some of the myths about animal experiments.
Today we launched the Concordat on Openness on Animal Research in the UK in which with 72 research institutions signed a commitment to be more open about the animal research they carry out or fund.
Proof: http://imgur.com/V2R2D1N - Business card
Yes, I have a 14 year-old ginger cat and when I was growing up I had two pet rats and a mongrel dog from Battersea Dogs' Home (a rescue centre in London). They all benefitted from veterinary treatments...
What is your opinion on China requiring animal testing of any cosmetics sold in that country, whereas the UK has banned animal testing for cosmetic products?
If the UK and EU can accept that cosmetics are safe to sell without being tested on animals, then I personally think that China could take the same line. I would support a global ban on cosmetic testing on animals.
There has been some pretty impressive non-animal techniques aimed at helping countries like China remove their need for cosmetic testing http://www.ibtimes.com/first-human-skin-sample-grown-lab-could-artificial-epidermis-end-animal-testing-1576882
I visited the a animal research facility in Cambridgeshire a few years ago, and they said that when an animal could no longer be used for testing (after it had been a subject)they would put it down instead of allowing adoption or something of the sort.
My question is twofold: Is this really true, that some animals are put down after testing? If so, are there any movements to change this, or make it more humane?
Im all for animal research, but it just doesnt sit well with me knowing this may be happening.
I can't speak for the specific facility that you mentioned, but I can say from experience: it depends. There are some places that allow adoptions of animals (I have seen this at times when cats and dogs were used as test subjects, depending on the nature of the research). Most of the time, however, that is not allowed.
There are several reasons for this. For one, if the animal has had any sort of genetic manipulation, they don't want that animal accidentally being released into the wild and potentially interfere with the genome of the local animal population (via breeding). Some of animal research involves giving the animal certain drugs to test the effects, and if you adopted the animal out it would no longer be given these drugs (which it might be dependent on at that time). That means the animal would be in pain, and as much as some people don't believe it, animal researchers try very hard to limit the amount of pain and stress an animal experiences. Some animals are just not adoptable, because they are not allowed to be kept as pets and may carry infectious diseases that humans can catch (I'm thinking specifically of rhesus macaques here). I'm sure there are many regulatory reasons why some animals may not be adopted out, as well. Most decisions about animal welfare are not up to the discretion of the animal researchers themselves, but the governing bodies that hand down the rules on how these animals need to be treated, which includes how they may have to be put down at the end of an experiment.
Well not so much crickets as the people running the AMA ended it many hours ago.
I emailed them though on their contact page, hoping for an answer.
Have you had any dealings with the Animal Liberation Front? If not - have you ever felt in danger by your career by any animal extremist groups?
I've been doing this work, on and off, for seven years and in that time I have had one nasty email. (It was along the lines of mudclub's comment below, so not that extreme, and I guess I'll have to say I've had two now...)
We are fortunate in the UK that animal rights extremism has been dealt with very effectively by legislation, the police and the courts. Extremists have been sentenced to jail terms of 10 years or more. We have also had several researchers who have been brave enough to speak out about how important their research is for many years. More and more individual scientists and organisations are taking the trouble to explain why and how they use animals in their research and this has undoubtedly contributed to the high levels of public acceptance for animal research that we have in the UK. Today's Concordat can only help to increase public understanding of the importance of animal research, which will undermine support for animal rights extremists even further. I realise that this isn't the case in other countries.
Hey Wendy, thank you for taking the time to do this. I'm wondering, how far away are we from not needing to use animals for medical research? Do you think the technology will be available in our life time?
Why are rats used in medical testing? What are the similarities between a rat and human where this would be beneficial?
Rats, like humans and all other mammals, have a brain, two lungs, a liver, a heart, two kidneys, a bladder, a digestive system..... In other words, we have very similar physiology. Rats are the third most frequently used animal in research in the UK, after mice and fish. They are used for toxicology testing, as well as for basic research into how the body works in health and in disease. UK law requires that any new medicine is safety-tested in two species of mammal before it goes into clinical trials in humans: a rodent and a larger non-rodent. The rodent is usually a rat. If a potential new medicine is toxic to rats, the likelihood is that it will be toxic to humans and it will not go forward into human studies.
Why is animal research important? (I already know. Sorry, the title was begging me to ask.)
Someone apparently did it before me.
In that case I'll ask something else...
What are the greatest triumphs of animal research?
Really difficult to pick one out of so many. I guess antibiotics were huge. Insulin for diabetes turned that condition from a guaranteed death sentence into something that could be managed. Cancer survival rates keep improving. Vaccines have eradicated smallpox and more or less dealt with horrors like diphtheria. I could go on and on but this video might give you more info:http://www.understandinganimalresearch.org.uk/resources/video-library/53/ten-medical-breakthroughs-thanks-to-animal-testing/
Shows 10 medical breakthroughs of the last century and the animals that were used in the research.
Indeed. The nice lady in the AMA says society has decided it's ok to experiment on animals; society wouldn't let bad things happen. And the nice scientists wouldn't hurt anyone. Afterall, society is good, & right, & it will always be. Happy animals!
What is your reaction to this recent study that found lab mice react differently to male and female researchers, becoming much more stressed around men? What are the implications of this, considering how much testing is done by men on mice?
This was a really interesting study. It implies that mice handled by men as opposed to women would be likely to have more of the stress hormone in their systems, so would have a higher pain threshold. There would be obvious potential consequences in a study of new analgesics, for example. But researchers working with mice are actually already very aware of what stresses them and they take precautions to make sure that the stress is either prevented in the first place or allowed for in their results. You might enjoy this piece from the BBC Radio 4 programme Inside Science on this paper, entitled 'Mice and Men' (shame they lost the 'Of'): http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b041yjy9
Hi, I support animal research, but I struggle with this issue: How much pain are animal subjects subjected to in the name of science? Is there a limit? What about suffering and stress?
There's a lot online. Stress you don't want because it affects the outcome of your experiment and pain is minimal.
From the Home Office https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/212610/spanimals12.pdf
"When making an application for a project licence the applicant nominates, and the Home Office assigns, an overall severity banding to the project. There are three main severity bandings: mild, moderate and substantial. A fourth band, unclassified, is used for procedures where the animals are decerebrate or used under terminal anaesthesia i.e. the animal is anaesthetised before the procedure starts, is kept anaesthetised throughout the course of the procedure and is killed without recovering consciousness."
It then records 2% severe, 2% unclassified, 1/3 mild (like taking a blood sample), and 2/3 moderate (temporary discomfort followed by recovery).
Sometimes it can take the better part of a day to find out if/how the person in charge of research wants to treat an animal in a large facility.
Sometimes it's impossible to know with certain species. I used to manage anesthesia with rabbits. Every clinical sign (respiratory rate, heart rate, blood pressure, reflexes) would tell me that the rabbit was under full anesthesia and the surgeons would go to cut and the rabbit would start howling.
In fairness.... I've heard that the same thing can happen in human ORs.
While every effort is made to make the animals comfortable -- how much stress would you feel if you lived in one room your entire life, ate the same thing every day, and had a few nice things to keep you company - regardless of medical tests done?
One could easily argue that most prisoners in a civilized society fare better.
That things like the Mouse Grimace Scale exist is an unfortunate insight into how some animal research is done.
There isn't some kind of pain limit so long as the boss okays the research.
That's not true--all animal protocols have to be approved by a higher governing committee, not just the "boss" of the research. In the US, that committee is the IACUC (and also AAALAC, but not directly).
Thanks for the correction; I agree the word boss is pretty vague. So, if you want to burn a rabbit's skin with acid, the IACUC has to give the ok.
But... if you're testing a pain reaction, anesthesia would defeat the purpose.
As far as I know you do not burn skin with acid to test a pain reaction. There are much more humane ways to do it (e.g. a plate that becomes warmer and warmer until uncomfortable, at which point the animal jumps off it), and in most Western legislations you are required to use such ways.
I see; I especially appreciate the groups who get regulatory agencies to become increasingly humane. As you presumably know, 50 years ago, that concern for ethics wasn't so prevalent... it takes a bunch of people making noise to get stuff changed, to put it simply. And I dare say, things could be made even more humane, but it's an uphill battle.
Yep. But the director of the research might have something to gain from burning the rabbit's skin with acid--maybe there could be another way to do this research, but actually burning the rabbit's skin with acid makes for a really cool sounding paper, and could give him a career bump. Maybe he doesn't really care if the animal is in pain. The IACUC does not get this career bump though, and they have no stake in the individual's research. The IACUC people are not monsters and they don't get a kick out of seeing animals tortured. The director of the research would need to state why he wanted to burn the rabbit's skin with acid and how the pain would be managed after that. The researcher needs to justify what they want to do, and if the IACUC doesn't see it as necessary or the methods are inhumane, they will not approve the researcher's proposal.
I'm just saying it's not up to the whim of a single person.
Yes, but still, it would be rather strange if things couldn't be made more ethical. 50 years ago it was less ethical, but people made a noise... activists stirred trouble, & the public opinion changed over time... these agencies have been practically forced to improve methods, & I see no reason not to keep pushing for improved practices. There is untold suffering going on without good science to show for it in the end, & so, it's worth pushing against cruelty where it exists.
It's also worth noting; an animal may be given anesthetic, but being torn from your family & keep in a cold cage is a miserable life... so long as there are enough bleeding hearts out there whining about stuff like that, there is going to be pressure to stop as much suffering as is reasonably possible. I'm all about seeing that side of it; I feel the job of the person doing the AMA was to brush that side of it under the rug & focus on the benefits only.
I see. Well I was just trying to help, since you didn't seem satisfied with the OP's replies, and I have some of the information you are asking about. Unfortunately it seems that OP doesn't actually work in animal research, is just part of promoting its benefits, so maybe that is why she was unable to answer some of the questions that were posed in this thread.
I'll address the other concerns that you mentioned, but you can just tell me to go away if you don't want to hear it.
Being torn away from your family: The rodent pups in my facility are kept with the mother until they are 3 weeks old, at which time they are weened. The pups are separated by gender, boys in one cage and girls in another, but they are kept together with their litter-mates whenever possible. Keeping all of those animals (pups and mom) in one cage indefinitely would be difficult because a) it would be very cramped as the pups grew, b) it would get dirty very quickly, and c) the mom probably needs to be bred again, and the mom might attack the older pups if she got pregnant. Plus, there would be some inbreeding going on, which can be bad if it goes on for long enough.
Sometimes the animals are housed individually, which I agree is not ideal. But when that happens, it is for the benefit of the animal in line with our research. For example, an animal that undergoes surgery and has stitches may be housed separately until the stitches come out, because its litter-mates might chew on the sutures and cause infection or damage to the original animal. When possible, the animals are put back into their original cage with their litter-mates after the sutures are removed, in order to make the animal more comfortable.
I agree that we need to continue making sure that animal welfare is the top priority in animal research. If I ever saw mistreatment happening, I would not let it slide. And every person in our lab knows that there is a confidential, totally anonymous number that they can call to report animal abuse. We really do our best to keep them comfortable and stress-free (since it benefits the animal and it benefits our research as well!).
Of course, monkeys are a different story... we're talking about conscious beings with the minds of mentally disabled people, on par with, what, 6 year old humans? -~10 year olds in the case of apes like chimps? And then there are dogs & cats being used, rabbits... I know mice & rats are used a lot. It's funny how much species bias plays into it though; if adult humans with the minds of two year olds were used instead of dogs, who also have minds on par with two year old children, there would be such outcry, despite the mentally disabled people being better test subjects for testing human medicines. That bias speaks to how much speciesism is influencing research, i.e. most people are saying, "sure, make them suffer a bit so long as they don't look like me", or, "...so long as they don't have a soul" as per religious ideology.
Thank you for speaking out for research! I believe that much of the public is misinformed and animals in research are cared for better than most think. Are there organizations in the US that are as vocal as Understanding Animal Research is in the UK? What advice do you have for those of us wanting to be more proactive in speaking up for the work we do?
Thank you! There are several organisations that do this sort of thing in the US:
Americans for Medical Progress – http://www.amprogress.org
Speaking of Research – http://www.speakingofresearch.com/
Foundation for Biomedical Research - http://www.fbresearch.org/
My advice would be that most people can actually accept the need for animals in research and are interested in finding out more about the subject. Try telling people at a party what you do and see their reaction. Talk to your friends and family first. Then maybe contact one of the organisations above and see if they have any projects that you could help out with. If you are ever in the UK, look us up and come for a coffee and we can talk more.
In my area of the US check out www.PSBR.org (Pennsylvania Society for BioMedical Research.) Or @pabiomed.
I'm certainly no expert like OP is but seeing as you've asked and it hasn't been answered yet, I recently read a really interesting paper on using Prarie Voles in neuropsychological tests as they have similar affiliative (bonding) behaviour to humans.
It discusses how the hormones Vasopressin and Oxytocin seem to be key in affiliative 'emotional' behaviour in humans and Prarie Voles, although human brains also seem to have specialised neural systems and brain regions that are key to providing us with our emotional experiences as well (a lot of research into mirror neurons uses monkeys as well, also some very interesting stuff to look at it if you're interested.) Here is the Prarie Vole paper if you'd like to read more
Hope that helps.
Wow... thanks for the link. Looks like they would be more suitable candidates than mice.
No worries :) Yeah lots of animals just spread their genes with as many partners as possible, but Prarie Voles are really quite sweet in the way they pair up and raise young. I think mice are just far more easily bread for science and are similar anatomically. There are other animals like certain types of birds and bats that raise their young at the expense of further reproduction like we do as well. It's fascinating the sort of 'human' behaviours that we attribute as unique to us that can also be seen in the animal kingdom, which have come about dependent on whether their particular evolutionary process found it favourable to continue the species. Yay for science!
Do you believe that a vegan diet is healthier?
Edit: My question was inspired by recently watching the documentary on netflix "forks over knives".
Well, we have some vegan scientists that explain their animal research to teenagers in our schools programme who certainly claim a vegan diet is superior, and I have friends who are vegan. I'm not a nutritionist but my basic understanding is that we need some essential nutrients in our diet that are hard to find in vegan sources, so I think it can be harder to enjoy a healthy, balanced diet but it's certainly not impossible. It just takes effort to make sure all those nutrients are being consumed, especially for babies and children. After all, a child's first food is (human) milk. Could we improve our diets by eating fewer processed animal-based foods and more fresh fruit and veg? Absolutely. Can the diet in that documentary have such a profound effect on disease? I don't know. It seems too simple and poorly evidenced.
Every essential nutrient can easily be found in a cheap vegan diet though.
Actually, 92% of vegans are deficient in vitamin B12. Here's a paper on it. http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/176565 so I don't know it's that easy. Also, just because a diet contains meat doesn't mean it's unhealthy or less healthy than a vegan diet...
As a vegan for over 20 years, I make sure to get my blood work done every year. Mind you, I am in Canada so I can do this free of charge. My vitamin b12 count has always been excellent. However when I was a younger vegan, I lived off of french fries. I blame adolescence for that one. I believe that vegan and non vegan diets can be healthy and non healthy.
Ok, I did not know that. I am just a meat eating slob! But I know that a regular vegan diet wouid include all essential vitamins. If you were a hardcore vegan then you would...
Yeah but that just makes it as healthy as the same diet with a piece of chicken or fish every day, not more healthy. It's true that having more than 2 pieces of processed meat like bacon a day increases your risk of bowel cancer, but if you're not (like me) and generally eat healthy (like me) the vegan diet wouldn't affect your risk factors.
Whether or not they're deficient, it doesn't change the fact that they can still "easily be found in a cheap vegan diet." Meat eaters can be deficient in B12 as well. Does this mean meat eaters can't find their essential nutrients on their diet? http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/2/693S.full
" Contrary to popular belief, not only strict vegetarians (vegans) are at high risk of vitamin B-12 deficiency, and there is strong evidence that status reflects usual intake across a wide range."
So, why the 92% in the paper? Are you claiming that anything like that in the general population are B12 deficient, and what is your explanation for vegans shunning cheap and easily found sources of B12? Is it religious? Ideological?
I guess they just wanted to say that you can't prove a nutrient is impossible to get enough of for vegans by showing that a large portion of vegans are deficient in it. B12 supplements are part of any normal store-bought multi-vitamin pill, usually with 2.5µg a fizzy tablet because that's about the recommended daily intake. But it's fairly easy to find supplements with up to 10µg in case you ever get deficient. They're usually bacteria-based, so they're vegan and convenient.
If everyone went vegan B12 could be supplemented in basic foods like iodine in salt, niacin in bread, fluoride in water, and many more food fortifications that are normal today.
Absolutely. Never said it couldn't be done and have nothing against a vegan diet, but the claim was that a complete diet could be easily achieved, but if that's the case why isn't it happening? Are 92% of vegans under educated?
I have seen no research on the reasons, so I can only do guesswork. My guess would be that some may think they get enough B12 from fortified foods such as breakfast cereal, nutritional yeast, or from unwashed vegetables. And in principle it's probably possible to actually get enough B12 if you eat an amount of those things sometimes referred to as a "fuckton". But people may think that they are getting enough when really they aren't. It's hard to tell because symptoms will only start after about 3-5 years of deficient intake, as the body stores about 3-5 years worth of B12.
I think the quantity thing is possibly an issue. Also we don't eat enough delicious seaweed as a culture!
That is where I get my b12 from. Fortified cereals, nutritional yeast, dirt from my garden accidentally and vitamins
Holy shit, what is wrong with you? Someone already explained to you that this is not about 92% of vegans, but 92% of vegans not taking a supplement. 100% of you is uneducated or flat out in denial.
Um, this proves my point. People on the unsupplemented diet were deficient. We're not interested in the ones who did take supplements.
Are you playing dumb? Someone else already pointed out that this is a matter of those not supplementing their diet. It's not about vegans in general, but those who aren't taking a supplement. And again, what does this have to do with your argument against a cheap vegan diet with all essential nutrients?
I'm only talking about an unsupplemented vegan diet, I'm not arguing against a cheap vegan diet. I presented a scientific paper which showed that the was high prevalence of deficiency in those with unsupplemented vegan diets. It is not impossible for them to supplement their diet, but the food contained in 92% of unsupplmented diets was not sufficient to meet their nutritional needs.
Among subjects who did not supplement their diets with vitamin B12 or multiple vitamin tablets, 92% of the vegans (total vegetarians), 64% of the lactovegetarians, 47% of the lacto-ovovegetarians and 20% of the semivegetarians had serum vitamin B12 levels < 200pg/ml (normal = 200–900 pg/ml)
Given the specific mention of the fact that these were vegans who didn't take B12 supplements, I don't think it's fair to say that "92% of vegans are deficient"- they're simply managing their diet poorly.
If you have to supplement your diet, your diet isn't giving you everything you need.
You're appealing to nature here.
The point of a vegan diet isn't to be composed entirely of whole foods- it's to be as cruelty-free as possible. Consuming a multivitamin every morning doesn't affect that.
That's a bit of a slippery getout - I don't think when someone says their diet gives them all the nutrition they need people assume the caveat "except those nutrients it doesn't for which I take supplements". They're thinking you're talking about foodstuffs and, whilst supplements are technically 'food', their name suggests that they are supplemental to your diet rather than a regular part of it. You could equally say "I get all the nutrients I need on my cardboard diet" if you accept supplements to fill in the nutritional blanks.
You could equally say "I get all the nutrients I need on my cardboard diet" if you accept supplements to fill in the nutritional blanks.
I don't even know how to respond to this absurd comment.
Obviously, you could. And so what? Would you class something like Soylent, entirely made up of supplements, as "not food", as you seem to be so arbitrarily doing with small quantities of B12 supplements alone?
That's because your pedantry is making it harder to grasp what I'm trying to say, which is:
You're right, technically.
There is sometimes a different popular understanding of words such as "theory" or "cruel" which vary from their technical definition.
I posit that by "food" people are thinking of things such as apples and oranges, not dietary supplements.
I posit that were something "easy", 92% of practitioners wouldn't get it wrong.
Uh, most food is fortified with vitamins because most people don't get what they need. How does that support your argument against a cheap vegan diet? It doesn't.
I'm not making an argument against a cheap vegan diet. I'm questioning whether it's easy to get all the nutrients you need without supplements.
Then, you shouldn't have replied to that person that said nothing about that idea.
It was only you who got confused by it. I'm having a perfectly civil conversation with someone else about it.
Just like human medicines, practically all of our veterinary medicines have been tested on animals. And animal research also benefits wild-living animals. For instance, research on animals in the lab can help to identify and develop treatments for viruses that affect colonies of animals in the wild. Recent research discovered that vultures in South-East Asia were being killed off by eating the carcasses of animals that had been given diclofenac. Banning the drug should allow the vulture population to recover: http://www.understandinganimalresearch.org.uk/news/2014/02/animal-research-and-asian-vulture-conservation/
Another example of animal research helping animals is the advent of the Pet Passport scheme in the UK. Before this, people could take their pets out of the country but couldn't bring them back without a six-month quarantine period to ensure that they had not contracted rabies. Veterinary medicines developed using animals now mean that Brits can take their pets across the Channel with them on holiday. if you go to this page on our website and scroll down, you will find a leaflet about the Pet Passport: http://www.understandinganimalresearch.org.uk/resources/document-library
What justifies testing venom on animals rather than on humans? I mean the ethical background.
I think the question here is around justifying research on animals that has a potential for severe levels of suffering? If we just look at the utilitarian angle, this sort of research has already greatly benefited humans. Giving Brazilian Pit Viper venom to animals resulted in ACE inhibitors for high blood pressure: http://www.understandinganimalresearch.org.uk/why/human-health/high-blood-pressure/
And sea snail venom may lead to new treatments for neuropathic pain: http://www.understandinganimalresearch.org.uk/news/2010/06/painkiller-from-sea-snail-venom/
I think the ethical issue is the same as for any research using animals. Is it certain that there is no non-animal way of doing the research? (In the UK it would be illegal to do the experiment if this were the case) Then there needs to be careful consideration of the potential benefits of the research - are they likely to outweigh the harm to the animals? Has everything been done to minimise the number of animals used and the suffering that the animals will experience?
But at the end of the day, we as a society have decided that it is not acceptable to test substances on humans before we have done some initial testing on animals. In the end, more humans will take part in the clinical trials for a new medicine than the animals used to test the hypothesis and then to safety test the drug. It's more a question of the order that the research is done in. And as in so many other areas such as eating animals for food, or using their skins for clothes, or using them for recreation, we as a society have decided that human health and benefit are more important.
How can i explain the importance of animal tests to someone with a very poor understanding of biosciences?
I'm not a scientist (helping my daughter revise for a Biology exam recently brought that home to me very clearly) so I understand the need to be able to explain the importance of animal research to people who don't know a synapse from a sarcomere. I think it boils down to the fact that if we want to be able to develop medicines and new treatments then we need to be able to test our hypotheses in a living being, as well as in computer models, cell cultures and other in vitro and in silico methods. As a society, we have decided that testing such hypotheses in human beings is unacceptable, so we do so in mice, rats, fish and birds and occasionally larger animals. The physiology of these animals, particularly the mammals, is very similar to our own and can give us valid results. For instance, 8 mice were used to demonstrate the efficacy of penicillin - all were given a bacterial infection, four were given penicillin and four were not. The four treated mice survived. This gave potential investors the confidence to go ahead to produce enough penicillin for trials in humans. Animals are also required by law for safety testing before new drugs are given to humans for the first time. All these concepts are quite straightforward, I would argue, and don't require a deep understanding of bioscience.
Practically every medicine - human and veterinary - that we have available to us today has been developed and/or tested in animals. This is a great question, but I could write reams on it and don't have time at the moment - I'll come back and add more once I've answered a few more questions.
What are the biggest differences in the regulations between the major governments? Are any better or worse than the others?
In the UK all vertebrates, plus octopuses and cuttlefish, are covered by the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act, 1986. The Home Office (government department) inspects the labs across the UK and approves the licences that must be granted before anyone can do research. Every institution must be licensed, every researcher must be licensed and every experiment must be individually licensed. There is also an ethics panel at each institution which must weigh up the harm to animals compared with potential medical, veterinary or scientific benefit. The EU system is very similar since Directive 2010/63/EU harmonised the regulations across the EU countries – so, for example, you cannot conduct animal research if there is a non-animal alternative which would produce comparable results. More details on our website here: http://www.understandinganimalresearch.org.uk/how/regulation
I'm not an expert on the US system, but my colleague who is tells me that it is slightly different as the Animal Welfare Act does not cover mice, rats, birds or fish (which are around 97% of animals involved in the UK). However, any publicly funded research (which is a lot of it) must be done in accordance with the Public Health Service Policy on Humane Care and Use of Animals. Many privately funded institutions are also accredited by the Association for Assessment and Accreditation of Laboratory Animal Care (AAALAC) which monitors institutions. Finally each organisation must have an Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee which performs a similar function to the UK/EU Ethical Review Panel. More US information can be found here: http://speakingofresearch.com/facts/research-regulation/
I'm afraid I'm not so sure about countries like China.
Is there anything you find hard to do to animals that you might not be able to sleep at night not trying to be funny
I understand that research has to be done, I had a friend that was involved in a project testing on monkeys. After the research was over, they put down over ten thousand monkeys that were in involved in the project. Why is this the norm?
That really seems like an amazingly big number to be true.
I am not saying that animals aren't euthanized after research. I am simply saying that I don't know of a facility that has 10,000 primates.
To try to answer the question, it's generally seen as inhumane (as well as cost prohibitive) to keep housing animals after a project is over.
It's also seen as inhumane to keep doing certain kinds of experiments over and over on the same animal. Sometimes, though, after a project that is more medical in nature, a subject can be used for something like a behavior study.
And, sometimes the animals will get adopted out, or go to a sanctuary.
But all of this depends on the species. There's not exactly a lab rat sanctuary. There are primate sanctuaries.
In theory, you might be able to adopt out a sheep that's missing part of an organ, if the destination were deemed suitable. But you couldn't use it for food.
Edit: At least, that's the case in the US where my experience was. It's probably similar in a lot of European countries. I used to remember more about practices worldwide, but it's hard enough to remember all the rules of your own research facility, rules of whatever board holds your license, rules of your state, country, etc. -- as well as differing rules for each species.
TL;DR - It depends on the species. Depends on regulations of the research facility. It depends on local laws. Euthanasia is sometimes seen as more humane than other options, and other options are sometimes not practical or possible. But it's not something anyone takes lightly.
The concordat on openness is very welcome, but I wonder if it's still a bit too passive. Will it encourage more research institutions, scientists and research funders to take a more proactive approach to bring animal research - which is still widely misunderstood - to the public?
Good question to start with - thanks. The idea is that the commitments within the Concordat build on each other. They start with a basic acknowledgement that an organisation does carry out animal research, move on to the importance of providing information when it is asked for and then commitment 3 is specifically about being proactive about helping the public to understand animal research. (We give examples on our websites of activities that UK organisations have already carried out to be proactive with the public.) So proactivity is a requirement of the Concordat. Personally, I think we have pushed it about as far as we can while still getting widespread support.
Thanks. Proactive engagement with journalists and the public is really critical for effective communication on scientific issues (and certainly not not just animal research - my own field is human genetic epidemiology), as I've said to colleagues more than once, you don't want your first encounter with a journalist to be when you're trying to defend your work after it's just been traduced by a tabloid. Even discussions with journalists that don't lead to anything at the time can turn out to be very valuable in the long run.
The Science Media Centre http://www.sciencemediacentre.org/ is a useful resource for this in the UK, and provide training for scientists new to dealing with the media.
I am pro animal research. It's my job and my personal conviction.
What is your general position on ethics? Are you a kantian, utilitarian etc?
If we didn't test on animals what would we do then, test on humans? But wait... That's morally wrong! People against animal testing for science can't have it both ways.
Do you find that most people against animal research are vegetarians who abstain from medication derived from animal research or that they are, for the most part, hypocrites?
Wanting to use different research methods while still benefiting from medicine created via animal testing doesn't really make one a hypocrite anymore than wanting alternative fuel while still using fossil fuel.
I'm saying that if you're against animal research you should also be a vegetarian.
Many of us are. That said, I do not think that I could completely abstain from products tested on animals. The medicine I take, the surgeries my cats have had, have been tested on animals. Myself, I would like to see us move away from animal testing. With our increased technology, I do believe this will one day be possible.
One day it will be possible, and it is desirable, but today is not that day.
How can you justify experimenting on animals in light of the fact we can now grow human cells in labs to test on instead, as well as computer simulations of reactions to drugs?
I know a little bit about both of these! Computers first. The point of an experiment is to find out something you don't know. It would be like making a computer model of your house to find out where your lost car keys are. You still don't know. With cells, they're not the whole picture - lots of different processes are present in a living body - hormones, temperature all interacting. Take bits out of the body and they don't behave the same. Most work with cells and computers is done before the animals stage. Hopefully it will be good enough one day.
Computer simulations? This is a joke; computers cannot currently simulate reality to any useful degree. It takes a distributed supercomputer (f@h) to try and simulate a protein folding; let alone and entire enzyme, cell and their interactions.
How can you represent any transcendental number, such as Pi, which is by definition infinite, in a classical computer?
i read on a TIL post a while back about a functioning dolphin-man, man-dolphin translator maybe coming this summer. also (i think) there was a kickstarter for a dog-man translator. how realistic is that? when do you recon we'll see something like that?
edit: dolphin stuff http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-working-on-humantodolphin-translator-report-first-successful-interaction-9228552.html
there is even a TED talk linked on the page
This one always comes up. All new medicines are tested on humans - there are three phases of clinical trials in humans before a drug gets licensed. The law states that those humans cannot be given a potential new medicine before it has been safety tested on animals. I wouldn't want to trial a totally novel compound without at least some guarantee that it wasn't going to kill or disable me.
They'd actually make very bad test subjects because they're riddled with diseases which distort the experimental data. Research animals are kept disease-free.
It could be a benefit actually to see what happens when the test drugs or whatever interact with certain diseases, could help with future studies. You never know.
Testing on Humans and animals is not mutually exclusive; both are done and necessary.
What do you tell people who insist that animal research is a violation of animal rights?
Should we do experiments on brain dead humans instead of animals? They feel less pain.
And I hope you and yours are never afflicted by diseases such as cancer, heart disease, rheumatoid arthritis, respiratory disease or any other condition requiring medication, or you might find yourself having to make the decision between accepting treatment developed and /or tested using animals (all the effective treatments) or succumbing to a potentially treatable condition.
The thing I find interesting about people who object to any form of animal research is that they often use the products of the research. Looking at this persons post history you can see they post frequently to a forum about e-cigarettes. So they will vilify people who do the work to test products they use for pleasure. Not even necessity. I think what people don't connect in their mind is that they need animal testing. And a bettter redirection of their empathy for animals is to to support organizations that call for transparency in research to make sure that research is done ethically and humanely.
Is there any truth at all to his assertion that "hundreds of millions" of animals die each year in testing? It seems just a bit unrealistic
The correct word is estimated.
Look- Everybody gets it that you're all passionate about this stuff, but so are other people, too. Maybe it does suck that we use animals to test products, but you cannot discount the usefulness that comes to humans from the testing
How else would you suggest that medicines and whatnot be developed and assessed for effectiveness? Shall there be no testing, or testing only on volunteers or paid subjects, or those actually suffering from whatever malady a medicine might be made to treat?
How would any progress ever be made?
Also, there are some crickets over there where I questioned your justification regarding exterminators doing what they do...
You asked if there was any truth to my assertion. I provided that which was trivially available via not being lazy and spending about 8 seconds googling.
I could give two shits about exterminators. They are not the face of advocacy of the animal testing industry which is what this AMA is about.
Hey, it was your assertion to prove. Fuck me for asking, huh? Also, as I pointed out, the best you could come up with was estimates from an obviously agenda driven source.
I could give two shits about exterminators. They are not the face of advocacy of the animal testing industry which is what this AMA is about.
Hold on there chief. You damned the woman doing the AMA and wished death upon her family because animals used in testing are killed, mistreated, whatever, but you gave the exterminators who also kill and torture animals a free pass.
What you are saying is that you don't give a fuck about ALL animals killed by humans- only those animals made different from the rest by the mere fact they are killed in a lab and not in your infested attic.
It reeks of hypocrisy.
I'm gonna start by pointing out that your champion OP pointedly didn't answer a single question about numbers of animals used in testing or about suffering caused by animals in testing. I provided sources, and if you're going to discount the HSUS as an irrationally biased source, then there's not much I can do for you. As I said before, they claim 25M animals in the US alone, and if you'd bother to do any research at all for yourself, you'd be able to find numbers from respected organizations in many other countries.
You really, really suck at paying attention, champ. She is the head of an organization that exists to advocate for the unnecessary torture and destruction of animals (see my citations from the fucking FDA elsewhere in this thread).
I have never once called for an exterminator, nor have I used any pest control products in or around my home/office/etc. How is that hypocritical of me?
LOL gonna try the asshole routine on me, too? Maybe my family should all die as well, since we benefit from products tested on animals, or at the very least because I can justify testing on animals and it grinds your whiny gears?
Here's the thing. I asked OP a single question as a minor aside, asking for clarification of what I felt to be an exaggeration on your part. No, OP didn't respond, but you did, and what you linked shows quite plainly that estimates do NOT equate to "hundredS of millionS" of animals every year, which is exactly what you said. Now, instead of dealing with any questions raised in the other thread, you want to expend great amounts of energy insulting and attacking me over studies of this or that or statistics about some other that I don't give one fuck about. Numbers don't interest me here, because I'm pretty sure that if they were reduced to 1000 / year, you would still be whining. I'm looking at the grand scheme of things.
Again, I'll ask you directly: What alternatives do you offer to animal testing? What do we do if you get your way? Grind medical research to a halt? Only test on as many animals as YOU feel comfortable with? Maybe those of us who do have cancer should just STFU and rely on prayer or die already?
I have never once called for an exterminator, nor have I used any pest control products in or around my home/office/etc. How is that hypocritical of me?
You really, really suck at paying attention, champ. I said pretty clearly that millions (maybe even hundredS of millionS) of animals die cruel horrible deaths at the hands of all the exterminators every year, and You Don't Give A Fuck.
I absolutely question your motives because your message of concern for the animals involved is inconsistent. Maybe deep down you just hate people (see: hateful death wishes above; lack of empathy because your family hasn't faced cancer; lack of empathy because you are rodent free). Maybe your concern is not for the animals themselves, but stopping testing because it will ultimately lead to the death of more people... like some new kind of ultra pussy serial killer. Sounds entirely plausible. Are you an anti-vaxer, too? Vegetarian?
How about your pets? 12 dogs were used to find insulin, and the Humane Society estimate there are 166, 000 type-1 diabetic dogs in the US atm. It's very brave of you to tell people with cancer, diabetes, deafness that they're not allowed treatments because of what you perceive happens in labs.
Nonsense - the work with gm mice breeding that now makes up half of research is the future. Scientists don't go around chopping up dogs to see how knees work anymore - they know that. What they're looking at it is what genetic instructions tell the knee to form, cancers to form etc. In one experiment last year, they bred mice to be deaf from birth, injected them with stem cells and restored their hearing. It's just gone to human trials. What you're standing in front of is cures for all those humans and animals with uncured diseases. Some dude has to wave goodbye to a normal relationship, decent job, birdsong all because you're squeamish about injecting a mouse! But you don't give a shit do you? You're not deaf, not your problem - big of you!
You understand that Wendy Jarrett is from the UK where all three of those are illegal, right? Right? You can't even import cosmetics tested on animals into anywhere in Europe. Maybe read more of her answers before hurling verbal invective and embark on your long, long road to education.
Weak dude, weak. She's clearly not advocating for anything anywhere. That's like saying if she advocated for hospitals she's advocating for incidences of malpractice.
What do you think they chop the mouse's head off to implant the stem cells by hand? Do you know how many animals are used to test household products in the UK? None. It's not whitewashing, it's a proportional representative example, unlike yours which happened god knows where and when.
So it's ok to use treatments developed using animal testing, after the fact...but not to develop new treatments. So insulin is fine, now that it's found, but not the cure for juvenile diabetes, because it's undiscovered? But after it is found, you'd be ok with it being used... I get that right?
I'll give you these, though:
Don't want them. I'm speaking on medical testing.
You said I wasn't even close on my hypothesis of your view on medical treatments as they pertain to animal testing. Then there was some glitter thrown in the air, but you didn't clarify how I was wrong about your position. I was wondering if you would.
Billions upon billions of animals die anyway, at least these are dying for a purpose. Do you use antibiotics? Any cosmetics? Do you eat food grown on a farm? Then you're directly benefiting from the deaths of animals.
I'm assuming you have a DNR/DNI filed with all the local hospitals in the event you're involved in a major car crash to prevent them from administering antibiotics, right?
Do you watch any sports? Listen to orchestras? Live in a house that used plywood in its construction? All of those things involve animal byproducts. You're a murderer!
Check out Steven Davis' paper on the matter.
"The least harm principle may require that humans consume a diet containing large herbivores, not a vegan diet"
The Journal of Agricultural and Environmental Ethics 16(4): 387-394 (2003).
It's impossible to live on this planet and not benefit from the deaths of other organisms.
I'm not an idiot, you just disagree with me. Animal testing has saved millions of lives and continues to save more. You have directly benefited from it.
Sorry to hear about your best friend and her father. I hope they get the appropriate treatment.
Thank goodness for all the animals that gave your friend and her father the ability to survive, else you'd be in the market for a new best friend.
So I presume you're a vegetarian and abstain from all medication derived from animal research?
Actually, yeah. I've been veg for ~16 or 18 years, and I can't honestly remember the last time I used or was prescribed medicine of any sort; I reckon it was probably quite a bit farther back than when I went veg.
I don't entirely disagree with your position, but, ach. There are more effective ways to go about discussing it than you're showing here.
Which is more effective- screaming at the top of your voice and breaking open someone's skull with a hardback copy of Animal Liberation, or giving them the book to read?
It's a monstrously infuriating topic to deal with people on. But being aggressive doesn't tend to have the consequences any pro-rights advocate would prefer.
Nature does far worse to animals, constantly. You don't see this because human civilization is in fact kinder to animals than the otherwise apathetic world.
==A genital parasite that renders you impotent while making your grossly enlarged penis throb in excruciating pain.
==Scraping by in life with half a torso for years, your sufficiently intact entrails and exposed nerves dragging against the ground, because you just barely escaped a predator.
==Eaten alive by your father just days after birth
==Your entire genetic line is wiped out by a chance flood.
==Bacteria consume your flesh after being wounded by an infected predator. Your body is slowly reduced to a deformed mass of grey slime, with you dying only when the infection reaches your heart.
Captivity and slaughter is a dream compared to the horrors of nature. Check your scope of perspective. At least with humans their suffering is useful and without irony.
Nature does far worse to animals, constantly.
You might be somewhat surprised to read about some of the things that have been done in the past. Better welfare legislation comes in very small steps- the treatment of rodents in research laboratories is enough to turn the average person's stomach when they think about it.
That bad things happen in nature is tragic, but it's really not a morally relevant consideration when discussing animal testing. Whether or not one supports the practice, it's only coming about because of human action- we're directly responsible for bringing about the state of suffering, so we bear moral culpability for it.
If you're going to defend or argue against it, there are more constructive lines of argument to take than that.
That bad things happen in nature is tragic, but it's really not a morally relevant consideration when discussing animal testing.
It is. Actually smart antispeciesists tackle the predation/parasitism problem. They know it is relevant, since we are only one of the many species that exploit others.
In terms of actual capacity to change matters, and magnitude of harm being continually inflicted, though? Focusing on human-facilitated suffering is a more pressing, and more achievable goal.
Fair play if you want to go full-on David Pearce and pontificate on full-scale reengineering of the wider ecosystem to reduce suffering- but it's not the most important concern right now, outside philosophical curiosity. And it's certainly not relevant when cited as a reason to dismiss human-facilitated cruelty.
magnitude of harm being continually inflicted, though?
As magnitude of harm goes, I think we are doing a minority of it. I might be wrong however, I know there is a lot of cattle around.
In terms of actual capacity to intervene, I agree. But for example, a rational antispeciesist should fight to neuter all predatory animals. At the very least, fight also to end having cats as pets, given that they are obligate carnivores and they kill animals for play as well.
it's not the most important concern right now, outside philosophical curiosity
I wouldn't call it philosophical curiosity, it is being consistent with your philosophy.
And it's certainly not relevant when cited as a reason to dismiss human-facilitated cruelty.
That depends. Human animal research is at least of potential indirect benefit for both humans and other animals; predation and parasitism only benefit predator and parasite. The latter are harder to justify than the former.
As magnitude of harm goes, I think we are doing a minority of it. I might be wrong however, I know there is a lot of cattle around.
A billion higher-functioning sentient animals killed in factory farms per year, in the UK (pop. 62 million). The world population's more than a hundred times that.
And the number grows significantly every year, on both counts.
And that's not counting the incalculable habitat loss from forest/cerrado clearing to make way for soybean monocultures to feed livestock and poultry.
Humanity's directly responsible for more suffering than any other factor on the planet.
More to the point, this is ridiculously short-sighted:
But for example, a rational antispeciesist should fight to neuter all predatory animals.
Neutering the world's predators would lead to prey populations spiralling out of control- leaving us to either intervene directly and cull populations when they got out of hand, or neuter every single surplus prey animal in the world.
The only workable measure would be a cull. And that, more or less, defeats the point of reducing overall suffering.
We don't have the technology or expertise required to reengineer an ecosystem yet. Actively fighting for immediate action on that note is likely to do more damage to the animal rights movement than any possible gain could balance out.
At the very least, fight also to end having cats as pets, given that they are obligate carnivores and they kill animals for play as well.
Agreed on the obligate carnivore note, if not the play note. But it's really a minor concern, relative to the scale of damage being inflicted by animal rearing for human consumption.
I wouldn't call it philosophical curiosity, it is being consistent with your philosophy.
If you're focused on reducing suffering, targeting your efforts towards things we can directly change, on a large scale, is vastly more important. Focusing on ridding the world of intestinal parasites that affect gazelles is, at best, of very, very subordinate importance to dealing with the meat industry.
It's preposterous navel-gazing like this that gives the animal rights movement a bad public image. Focus on what can be done, before howling about how we should exterminate every animal showing the slightest hint of cruelty in its relations with others.
People like you and David Pearce take utilitarianism to such religious extremes that it cripples the ability to deal with the world we currently have to manage.
Humanity's directly responsible for more suffering than any other factor on the planet.
I am still very, very unsure of that, but okay.
The only workable measure would be a cull. And that, more or less, defeats the point of reducing overall suffering.
Uh, why? Culling animals does not mean to make them suffer.
We don't have the technology or expertise required to reengineer an ecosystem yet.
I agree. I never said it was easy -only that it is not very rational to completely ignore the issue.
Agreed on the obligate carnivore note, if not the play note. But it's really a minor concern, relative to the scale of damage being inflicted by animal rearing for human consumption.
Yeah, it is a minor concern. But still I hear a lot of outrage about animal research (which is a very minor animal usage by humans, most probably inferior to overall cat ownership), and not about owning cats. Why is it so?
Focus on what can be done, before howling about how we should exterminate every animal showing the slightest hint of cruelty in its relations with others.
But we actually can exterminate every animal showing cruelty, if we only wanted to do that.
People like you and David Pearce take utilitarianism to such religious extremes that it cripples the ability to deal with the world we currently have to manage.
It is a logical extreme, not a religious extreme. I actually am not an animal activist -I am your run of the mill meat eater. Yet if I wanted to join the antispeciesist cause, I couldn't do it in the biased manner that many seem to do. At least people like Pearce are consistent.
That was a pretty fucked thing to say. Do you wish the same for the millions of exterminators across the planet who kill far more animals that even the most dedicated researchers?
Aren't championing a cause? Seriously? Their 'cause' is two-fold. First, to eradicate vermin, and second, personal profit.
They also don't force their prey to live out their lives in cages, to endure vivisection and torture, etc before killing them
No? Do you even have a clue how exterminators kill their prey? They often use poisons that slowly dehydrate the animal to death, or spread to the entire nest before it starts killing. Or glue traps that capture the animal and hold it there for however long it takes to die of 'natural' causes.
It may not be exactly the same as what a researcher does, but it's not so fucking different that a person devoted to their own 'cause' should give it a free pass entirely.
What good does it do to free the noble rat from the clutches of evil researchers only to stand mutely aside as the exterminator grows fat without giving any benefit to society at large?
I don't know why you were down voted but I suspect one can never go against anyone else's opinion on reddit. I personally believe that certain convicts, such as murders and pedophiles, should be used as nothing more than lab equipment so that their horrible existence can be somehow put to good use. I know that there are laws in the US, however, we do have the death penalty so why would we not introduce a discussion of perhaps resting on those who have taken away from society? Many people here don't seem to understand. A human cannot consent to a rape or murder (as by definition) and yet those who are guilty are given rights, even on death row. However, animals cannot consent to any sort of drug or product testing, and we realize that animals cannot consent because sexual contact with them is illegal and of course so is animal murder and torture (at least by a normal Civilian)So in that case, animals will not be raped or killed, but somehow we feel that they can consent to torture by way of drugs, torture, genetic manipulation, etc? How does this make sense ? Why does one group have rights while the other (who clearly are recognized at the very least as beings, as it illegal to have sex with or kill them) does not? Doesn't make sense to me. I am also a psychology graduate so I am familiar with many of the invasive tests that are done, and that is merely for psychology sake, imagine all of the other people who are testing. It's wrong and animal testing should be illegal point blank. I know this will be down voted but I had to reply and just agree with you
Animals are not ours to sacrifice in the name of science. Period
Hi, there are plenty of prisoners and generally shitty humans. Test on them. Animal life is worth tons more than human, as all humans do is destroy everything we can see.
I personally dont know how you can sleep at night. I hope someday someone inflicts all the pain and suffering that you have caused in all these animals to you.
I would imagine very well considering her work has factored into saving countless lives.
I think you need an education about medical, veterinary and environmental research. More are saved than sacrificed.
Bill Loundy & Jeff Camera
Mauricio Seguel
Connor Karen
David Hu
Andrew Bustamante
Jenna Birch
Giovanna Taormina, Kiku Johnson, Uli Amaral


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Rafik Schami is one of the most important authors writing in the German language. Though he first came to Germany when he was 25 years old, his Syrian homeland is never far from his thoughts. It is also the setting for many of his stories. Markus Clauer introduces the best-selling authorMore
With fighting around Damascus having ceased, everyday life is slowly returning to the Syrian capital. While the people there enjoy a touch of normality, life in the immediate surroundings could hardly be more different. By Rahel Klein and Marko Djurica


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Tag: Big Ole Boss
Dej Loaf Hints Her New Album "Liberated" Is Ready
In December we got a new single from Dej Loaf titled "Big Ole Boss" and now she is hinting that her long-awaited album, Liberated, is ready.
The last solo body of work we received from Dej Loaf was her 2016 mixtape All Jokes Aside. Last year, she released a joint mixtape with Jacquees, F**k A Friend Zone. Though she has released at least four mixtapes and an EP since 2012, we've yet to get her long-awaited debut album. Last year she announced that she is working on a new project called Liberated but so far there have been no further details.
On Monday, Dej Loaf posted a preview of a new song on Instagram where she drops some hints about her upcoming album. "Express yourself it's been building up gradually who ready for the album?" she wrote. In a recent interview with Paper magazine, she opened up about the pressure she has been feeling to deliver her best work yet.
"I think it's been a year and a half since people have seen me," she said. "I took that time off and I was working. You don't know how they're going to react. It's definitely pressure, though. I just want to be who they saw me as, but also have them understand my growth in the music. That's what I focused on this go-round."
Listen to a preview of her new music below.
express yourself it's been building up gradually ???? who ready for the album?
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