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Philip L. Shutt Memoir
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University of Illinois at Springfield Norris L Brookens Library Archives/Special Collections Philip L. Shutt Memoir SH94. Shutt, Philip L. b. 1908 Interview and memoir 2 tapes, 180 mins., 44 pp. CHRIST EPISCOPAL CHURCH Shutt, historian for the Episcopal Diocese of Springfield, discusses the Diocese, St. Paul's Cathedral, church titles and roles, clergy, Christ Church, the prayer book and the diocesan structure. Interview by Sandra Britz Armbruster, 1981 OPEN See collateral file: interviewer's notes and an historical booklet on the Diocese of Springfield. Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407 © 1981, University of Illinois Board of Trustees Preface '!his manuscript is the pra:lu.ct of a series of tape-recorded. interviews con:luct:ai by sandra Britz Annbn1ster for the oral History Office, ~statetlniversity on J'uly 7, 1981. Margaret Reeder transcribed the tapes ani Kay Johansen edited the transcripts. Fhllip Shutt is the historian for the Diocese of Sprin;;Jfield ard a member of st. Paul's cathedral. He is undoubtedly ems of the best infor.med members of the diocese ard gives a very factual account of its history. He has written a book whic:h contains a brief sketch of each chu:t:t:t1 in the diocese of Springfield as well as an accounti.n;;J of each bishop. Mr. Shutt has lived a fascinati.n;;J life, bei.n;;J a teacher, salesman, J(Olitician and ~iest. His father was a priest and his family had an important part m the history of Springfield. He explains the st.ructures, titles ard rituals of the church as well as telling events that have shaped Olrist Church. Readers of the oral history me!l¥)ir should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator end editor sought to preserve the infonnal, conversatiooal style that is inherent in such historical sources. Sangamon state University is not responsible for the factual ac:x::ura.cy of the me!l¥)ir, nor for views expressa:i therein; these are for the reader to judge. '!he manuscript may :be read, quoted ard cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by aey means, electronic or mecilanical, without permission in writi.n;;J fran the oral History Office, Sangamonstate university, Springfield, Illinois 62794-9243. Table of contents Famlly and the Episcopalian Church • 1 0 Rev. Jerey Wallace • 2 Dissension at st. Pauls' 6 'Ihe origin of Cllrist Qrurch. 8 letter From Jerry Wallace to John Hauser • 9 SUccession of Clergy at Cllrist's Qrurch arr:i Membership Contributions. .10 Churchmanship. .14 Prayer Book Controversy0 .15 '!he Province 5 .17 Diocese of Illinois. .20 Church Members am Communicants. .21 Church Titles arr:i Roles. .23 Heal:in;J. .27 Episcopal Church ani Fblitics. .27 Rev0 Clanpett controversy0 .29 Climate of the Episcopal <llurch. .31 Ccmparison of Churches • .33 Church saints and Rites. .37 .39 0 Philip L. Shutt, July 7, 1981, Springfield, Illinois. sarma Armbruster, Intel::viewer. Q: HoW lon;r have you been an Episcopalian? A: All my life. I've been an Episcopalian all my life. Q: You were bam into the church and your parents were • • • A: My father was a clergyman. Q: And how lon;J have you been in this diocese? A: well actually about forty years. Q: I believe you told me before, when we talked on the phone, that your family had been a very active fmni.ly here in Sprin]field? A: Yes, my great-granipare.nts cane to Sprin;Jfield in 1842 ard raised a family ard some of them became prominent in political ard social circles in Springfield. Q: 5o you have a very long ard interestin;J history with the whole city? A: '!hat is correct. Q: HoW long have you been the historian for the church? A: Fifteen years. Q: When you retired fran work, did you start? A: No, I've only been retired since 1973. Q: So you've been working with a lot of the political ani structural charqes in the church ani you've seen a lot of thin:3s happen? A: wen yes I have, of course, seen many things hatpmed. ani having written a history of the diocese in brief fonn, I know saneth.i.ng about the grc::Mt:h of the diocese am minor cont:rove:rsies that occurred. Q: You were t:al.kin:J about same of the interest~ people that you have known, especially those associate:i with <llrist Clrurch. A: One of my vert dear frierrls was a former rector at <llrist Olurch, I'lCM retired. called him Jerry Wallace and was known by everybody in :Ehllip L. Shutt 2 Sprin:Jfield as Jerry. Reverend Jeremiah wallace was rector for na:e than twenty years, twenty-five years? Q: I think it was twenty years, I think he said he believed that I'10l:xxiy should be a minister for DDre than twenty years at one place. A: I remember once tal.kin;J to hiln about the r:eacii.rq. '!here -were no candles in the church on the altar and he said that When somebody in the oongregation asked a question of why aren•t the candles on the altar, he'd p.lt candles on the altar and not until then. Arrl I don't know just when it was that two candles first appeared on the altar in Christ Church blt it's rather recent historically. 'lhey just had a l::x:Ml of flowers on the altar, had the cross but they had a lx:Ml of flowers, that was it. I sugxse that probably, I don't recall just when the two candles, the eucharistic candles at least as we call them, were put on the altar, but it• s historically rather recent. IJ:hat was his reason for not havil'q them. Q: 'lhat's i.nteresti.n;J, he was a very i.nteresti.n:.J man. A: He was a terrihl¥ fascinatirq man. I came to know hiln very well because I was a candidate in this diocese and he was one of the clergy who tested me so I got to 1alow hiln very well. As a matter of fact, I was ordained as a priest in the diocese an:i I was ordaine:i as a deacon in Christ Church. Again, Jerry wallace said I could have any kind of a service I wanted. so we had a full catholic service in Cllrist Church with a Bishop and cope ard miter. I suspect that may be one of the few times that Bishop White allowed cope an:i miter in CllristChurch. Q: And what is that? A: Miter is the hat. Q: Oh the big pointed hat? A: 'Ihe big pointed hat and the cope is the heavy vestment. Q: Okay, I 1alow what it is now. I am so new to the Episcopal Church that sane of the tenns I may have to ask you about. A: I 111 show you one. (Pause in tape) NOW' this belonged to Bishop Hale. It's all of nearly a hurdred years old. Bishop Olarles Reul:!len Hale was the Bishop at Cairo, the Assistant Bishop to Bishop SeyiDOtn'. He served for about five years in that capacity. 'Ibis is his mitelf. Q: 'Ihat•s quite a beautiful pieoe arid what is that? ! A: Well a cope, I haven1t got one here, but it1s a very pretty outer ecclesiastical gannet. Very elaborately embroidered. Q: Like a brocade? A: well yes an:i it has symbolism on it an:i it's thrown aver the it's clasped. there, it's great big. Q: Why did you elect to have that kini of a mass? A: Well partly because that was what I was used to, hatl I had been raised. Q: What church did you go to as you were growirq up? A: My father was a clergyman you remember, so we m:::wed. Q: Where was he a clergyman? A: He started off here in the diocese. He was ordained deacon and priest by Bishop Seym:lur, the first Bishop of Sprirqfield. He started off as minister in 1891 an:i he left the diocese in 1900 to go to Iowa. While he was here in Spri.rgfield he was chaplain to Bishop Seymour in city Missionm:y in Springfield and had charge of old st. John's Omrch while he was here. Q: Now where was st. John•s? A: '!hat was on the comer of North Gran:i and sixth. It had been originally St. John's in the town of Ridgely which was a ooaJ. Il1ini.rq • . . Q: Okay, but out by the old Ridgely SChool area? A: '!here was a mission started ani then it became a parish. Q: A mission out of the diocese of Springfield? A: In the 1940's it was tom down to :r;:ut a fi1lin;J station an:i now there is sanet:hil'g else on the comer. Q: Is it where the donut shop is? A: No, this is 6th. Q: Well the donut shop is at 6th, there's the donut shop ani the old . .. A: 'Ihere's that Chinese restaurant. Q: Well that's 5th. A: well it was 5th ani Grard then. Q: Memorial Hospital, the Old Springfield Hospital was where the fish place is l'lOW. I was bam there. A: rut anyhow Jetty Wallace to cc:me back to him, I never saw him wear a clerical collar. He always wore a collar ani tie. He may have wom a clerical oollar at times but I don•t ever rememiber seei:ng him. I can't remember seeinq him but maybe he did, pe:rhaps, because he was at Irr:l ordination as a Deacon in Christ Olurc:'.h. He may have at that time wom a clerical oollar but he didn't, he wore a soft shirt and tie, black tie nart of the time. Q: He was quite a leader against What he considered political graftin the city? A: He was greatly beloved and many, many people knew' him. I think he probably was, 'Well I suspect he was, about as out.st.an::iirg as any I was tryirq to gather toqether sane rem.iniscenoes of Bishop rector that has been theJ;e. He is still alive. I had a letter from him a year or two aqo. Q: D:les he live in Iowa? A: No, Arizona, sanewhere in Arizona. Q: I guess he's alive. I had a letter :fran him a couple of years aqo. White and. he was here of COlll:.'Se, when Bishop White was here, ani I thought he could qive me sane information. He wrote me a nice letter recallirq me and it was fran sanewhere in Arizona, I think in Arizona. Q: I think he's still alive because I've tal.kecl to several people and they mentioned him. A: Well he's very old but he's prcbably still alive. Q: I think people would have heal:d if he were dead. A: Well he must be, 'Well I can fin:i out hew old he is. WOUld you be interested in knowi.1:g heM old he is? Q: Yes, I might even write to him. (pause in tape went to getinformation) Q: What date? A: 1894, that would make him eighty-seven, eighty-eight years old wouldn't it? Q: Everybody talks of him in such youthful times. I would have never thought he was that old. A: He was a spiritually very d.evcut person and very lovely person,plus talented. Q: Do you remember when he was fightirq the gam.in;r machines? A: No, I don1t, I wasn1t here. I k:naw' that happened. I kn.ow that theJ;e was a period when theJ;e was quite a drive on to get rid of bett.inq and. poker playirg and stamp machines and. one th.ing ani anot:her because Sprirg'field was a wide open ccmmamity at one time during' tbe time he was here. Q: Was that in the 1940's? A: SCinewhere around. thel:e. Q: Because CUllan DaVis, out at ~'gave me an article to mad that was in a group of :many histories a:bclit this city ani it was about his speech against the graft ani oor.ruption. A: well this I don't know" because I WOJ.l..dn't have researched it. suspected, it llilCUldn't surprise me, because he was that type of person, very much aware of the oamnunity. He was a very dear frien.i of Bish.ap White ani he got alOl'YJ beautifully, but I think it was duri.ng this time with Reve:rend Mr. Riley, 1917 to 1920, I think it was; Bishop Sherwood. refused to visit Cllrist Church. Q: Why did he refUse? A: I wish I CCIUld fird it. It was a matter of a theological stan:i taken by Mro Riley1 ReVerend. rester IJ.:ik'e Riley1 who disbelieved in the apostolic succession. He :believed in the epic:ccpate ani was veryliberal in his attitude. He also openecl oam'l1.lllion, anybody could take CCIDJilD.U'lion whether they were Episcopalians or not. Q: Hasn't that cane arourrl all the way 'llC:M? A: well, this gets into theological cantroversy. '!he House of Bishops at the last General convention adopted a resolution that gives a toe hold to the idea of open cx::mmmion. It is possible without being' canonically wrong now, to invite any person who believes that Cbrist is :really present in the oamnunion ani who is free fran sin,but that's not the phrase to take communion whether they•ve been conf:i.nEd or not. '!his is not the practice in the Dioa:se of Spri.nqfield. 'lhe cathedral does it, but it•s not the general practiceani pn::bably will not be the general practice. HoWever it's one of those permissive thing's. I'm opposed to it la:t'\]ely because of JCr:l backgroun::l I see no use then for having' confirmation if this is qoi.ng"to be allowed. You take certain vows in confirmation which an ordinary person without sane backgrourd couldn't take honestly. Bllt that's a purely personal opinion. Q: I think at Cbrist Olurc:h they allCM it if you are a baptized person. A: well I renember that two or ·three weeks ago there was this dialogue between sane Roman Catholics and Arglicans out at Shennan, there was a stoey in the paper a1:x:'ut this. 'lbere is a ccmm.ission, Arglican-Rcman Catholic Cc::lmm.ision, in the National Olurd:1 an:l the idea is to bring' priests of both churches to a clearer 1ll11erstandirg of each other on what they stand for. SUch a meeti.r:g was held out at Sherman. Father I<:ruEqer of st. Luke's is one of the nr::wers of this cmmision, one of the praninent persons participating' in it, organizirg it an:i when saneone in Olrist Church called him up the next day, after readi.t:girg it • . • there was a picture of BishopMcNicholas an:i a Ranan catholic biship an:i Bishop wells, of West Missouri an:i there was a very fair story about the dialogue between Ranan catholics ard .An;Jlicans, or Episcopalian clergy. well anyhalthis lady called Father Krueger an:i says, ''What is the idea of this? we are Protestants, we're not catholics. " He didn't argue arx:1 S01'l'I901'le else in Christ Church read the same story ani called him up ani said it shatled a very stron:J bias against Reman Catholicism. I didn't think that existed anynw::>re. Q: so you think Christ Church is a conservative, ultra-conseJ:Vative church? A: I think it's an ultra-conservative. ori'1inally of course, it was organized because of disagreement aver the r1tual at st. Paul's. Q: "What were they addirq that caused such a dissension? A: Do you know' sc::anethin:J about it? Q: I knc::M scmet:hin:J about it fran doing the research. All I reallyhave an idea about is that there was apparently an additional ritual added to the mass. A: Yes, it was originally (Pause while looking for papers) Q: So that would have been like 1887? A: Yes, I haven't got this whole. It's fran a manuscript of some kin:i that was given to me. It's a history of the Olrist Church. Now I can't fi.rrl the rest of it, but what I have here now pertains to What we were talking about. It's authentic, sc:aneone wrote this ard gave it to me but I'm missin;J sixteen pages that's somewhere. Arlyhow, "'!he majority of the Episcopal reconls might be called Prayer Book churchmen or liberal evaJ'X}el.icals." I think this is where Christ Church fits. It is a Prayer Book church and liberal Evan;Jelical. It sanetiJnes has been calle:llCM church. I don't like that term because it really doesn't mean very l1UlCh as a contrast to high church. It did originally. High church was a ctrurcb. that had a great deal of ce:reiOOny ani ritual ani the lCM churches were churches that had ccmm.mion very infrequently an:i JOOStl.y momirg prayer. Q: '!hat was the prilnal:y difference? A: 'Ihat was the prilnal:y difference and in 1887 Bishop 5eyitDur was faced with a house divided. 'Ihe Revereni Frederick W. Taylor, Rector of st. Paul's, later Bishop of QUincy, it was d.urin;J his rectorhipthat a lorg brewirq nmrement of same people in the parish to start another church came to a head. He had very definite catholic convictions, he was very clearout, he was unc::arpranisin:J and so if there was to be a break it would care abcut because of his .•. Q: Rigidity? A: Rigidity. SO whoever wrote, the writer of this manuscript says, must have been very st:rorg feelin;J on the quote "separatists" from st. Paul's. But the accounts I have read have been meager, nuted and exceedin:Jly kin:lly. Which of course they should be. 'Ihese two senators fran the Illinois state ~ister in 1887 C]ive a brief explanation for a new church quote~1ifhe orginazat1on contains within it's membership a large rnnnber of our praninent church people,fo:nnerly members of st. Paul's church, who object to the high church fonns, preferrin:] a sinpler sezv'ice. '!here is no reason why both churches should not flourish and un:ioubtedly their efficiency will be increased by the division." '!bat's a quote fran the Ret;Iister. SO despite the fact the consent was given by the vestJ:y of st. Paul's for the organization of a new parish, at the latter part of 1887, the Bishop Seymour gave his consent to the organization. Q: I'll have to give you a copy of his letter. I have it for you. A: well I have it in part here. Q: 'Ihis is in his own han:iwritin:]. A: I have sane, maybe I have, I don't know. '!hen it goes on to say,''We heal:by solemnly promise that said parish shall be forever held and incorporated under the ecclesiastic authority of the Bishop of sprin;Jfield and it1s successors." '!his is what is meant byCOJ:pOration sole, church property in the Diocese of Springfield is in the title of the~of sprin;Jfield and his successors in office. '!here are twenty-six s1gnatures to that pledge. Q: To start the new church? A: 'Well the rest of this you know about. Here is a quotation fran Mrs. James Fasley. Did you have that? Q: No. A: Okay. She was twelve years old at the time and this gives her version of the first service which was held in the Chapel of the YMCA. No date is given but you can discover that. Now this is Mrs. Jam¥ Fasley. I don't know" Whether she•s still livin;J or not. In 1888 she was twelve years old. Q: She was bom in 1876. A: I don't think she's livin;J l'lOW. Okay aeyway, 'Ibis is a quotation,''We sat on plain chairs. Near the door as "W entered the roan was a small table with a white marble top and on the table was a Bible. remember I was very disaRX>inted With the entire outlook, could not see a very hc:p!ful future." '!hen this goes ahead to talk about Cllarles Ridgely and George H. webster which you know about, don't you? Q: Right, but you can tell me because it was not on tape. 8 A: "Al.n¥:st bnediately Olarles Ridgely and George H. Webster offered the new parish a gift of $14, ooo for a MelTI:>ria.l ctrurch provided the lot was purchased by the cor:gregatia1. 'Ihe llElDOrial was to be honor of their mthers who -were sistel:s. It was also stip.ll.a.tei that the looaticn be in the central part of the city, that "free sitt.i.IYJ'' be offered. ar:d that services be cc:n:1ucted •tume:r civil am ll¥Xiera.te forms in accordance cnl¥ with the book of camr10n Prayer am wherein ritualistic dcctrmes am practices shall be avoided." After considerable time has been spent investigat.irr;J looations the present site was chosen. I think Miss Dickenson wrote this. Q: Marjorie? A: I'm don't knc7.ri, I'm assum:i.n;J. "A great day for the new parish came Ma.:rc'h 25, 1889. Lots -were purchased at the price of $11,000 and paid for and everyth.:in;J in the c:hu:rctl was a llElDOrial, a1tar, lectern, organ, :baptismal font and wi.n::loi.1s." Q: Mostly from the webster's ar:d Ridgely's ar:d assorted relation? A: ''Records say church at:terxlance grew during the Revererd Frederick Clampett rectorship am the fair ladies vied for his attention but to no avail. He 'Wel"J.t far a field for matr.i:ltarl.al conquest am. chose his fair lady in Bloom.ington, Illinois." Q: He was a bachelor When he came? A: Yes and he had been accused at a former rectorship of openCC'Ill11l'llmion am. there was corresporxience with Bishop Beymour on this between the vestey ani Bishop Sey.DXJU.r. It had settled itself. It says, '"!he vestry had no animosity towan:1s his marriage. ~ increased. his salary f:J:an $1500 to $2000 which was very munif1cent in 1890," ard he had a three ItDnt:hs vacation allowed too. Q: I think they cnly have a lD'Ith na.P. A: He was in Sprin:jfield cnly three years ani it was durir:q one of his three month vacations he got married. It says, "Whether his popularity dwin::lled after this defection or he was looking for new horizons, he at least left." And of course Bishop White was a member of Olrist ctrurch ani was a can::lidate for holy o:t'ders fran Olrist OlUrch a:rd held lay se:tVices in Cllrist Olurch When he was a layman, lay reader. After he was ordained priest he was an assistant to Clampett for awhile. NOA this here, sare of the memorials, "A:nv:D:".g them the lovely reredos given by Mrs. Palmer in memory of Dr. George 'lbanas Pal.mer, the recently installed organ given by Mrs. Hatch in memory of Mr. Pascal Hatch, beautiful gold ums fran Dr. ani Mrs. Milton OWens in memory of Mrs. owen's sister am entrance doors and tilrpin in honor of Mrs. S. T. Burnett. In 194 7 when there was to be an election for the Bishop of Springfield, Bishop White having retired, Revereni Jeny Wallace was one of the priests nani.nated. He was then livi.rg in Tuscon, Arizona. He wrote a letter to the :Reverend Jdm H. Hauser who was rector t:hEtl 9 at Cllrist Churc:h.. I •m tenpted to read the whole letter because it expresses scanet.hin;J of the churdnnanship that he fOlll'D in Christ Church ani in the diocese. Q: Okay1 go ahead ani read it. A: ''My dear Mr. Hauser, I have your splerxtid letter of April 3oth in which you state in affect that my churchnenship is the obstacle of mybeing elected Bishop of Spri~l;1fleld. NO!rl while all the clergy who know me speak m::st entlmsiastically of your Christian character and pastoral abilities, nevertheless churchnenship is the obstacle. Your letter for which I thank you gives me the qporbmity to say that I did not start or create the situation. If this contest has denigratedinto a high ani low struggle, I think it unforb.mate it beganelsewhere than here and should be lifted back to it1s original high plain by intelligent ani godly persons ani kept there. I •m not a partisan, I •m a person ani not a symbol. For twenty-five years I •ve lived ani labored in the diocese of Springfield ani fought it's battles, sanetimes at the cost of making personal enemies. I was not considered a partisan of anyt:hi.ng except the old diocese. Time ani again I was elected ~to General convention, generally being Dean of the Deputation ani retired only at last because I felt others of the clergy should have qportunity to be deputies. But even so, after my declaration to retire I received several votes. Time after tilne ani again I was elected to the staniin;J camnittee nearly always on the first ballot ani served as member an1 then as secretary of the last several years in the diocese as president. As a parting oamplimentthis st:arninq ccmnittee of the last meeting at which I presided elected unani.m:lusly, at my request, to suooeed me, the present president of the standing canmittee. Father Haughton (who was the rector at st. Paul's) ani I examined for years as chaplains most of the caniidates for holy orders. 'lhere was no question then about my cb.urdnnanship nor was there through a quarter of a century largelybecause of the loyalty to the Bishops of Springfield. My parish paid year in an:i rear out every dollar that was asked for for the diocese an:i the miss~onary work of the church. I love the diocese of Springfield. I am boun:1 for there have been many ten1er ties an:i ntenkll:'Y in service. I went there in Bishop Sherwood1s tine. He trusted me :inplicitly ani one of the treasured letters I keep is one which he wrote another Bishop who had had me called to a parish in his diocese. •So if you get this priest, 1 wrote Bishop Sherwood, 1it will be over my dead body. 1 If I am elected Bishop I 111 have no enemies, only frierr::ls. '!here will be no one to pmish. We should fol.'qettenporaJ:y differences in the great cause which will mrlte us in makingit a dicx:a;e of Springfield into the great diocese it has the potentiality of becc:anin:r· I will nat meddle or interfer with the custans of aey parish but I do not care a great deal about cerem::my except as it contributes to reverent worship. My mind, my heart and my ministry have never faltered in loyalty ani devotion to the sacramental principle of the ch.u:rch or to its rich catholic parishes. I have but one doctrine arxi that is the incamation. I believe that all stems from this an:i to me is sacramental and social applications are one. I think it very unfair to judge men by their jab lots ard write them all off it they do not acme fran certain seminaries or have not been rectors of certain parishes or do not do t.hin;;Js in certain ways. Jud.ged by this star:dard, my classmate, the very :Rsvereni William H. Ness, 'WtJUJ.d never had been electe:l dean of Na.shota House. I am too catholic to be exclusive with O'll'lSeCrated ocmoon sense, haJ:d "WOrk and love. We can win all central am southern Illinois to Christ am his church. I would spend a great deal of my time in the mraUI st:rugglinq and d.iscaura.ged places. I would be the first missionary of my diocese. It would cost me my life but I am willi.nq to give it for the ya..D'¥1 Prince of Glm.y. But you see my Br:othe:r, I SUltlllDI1 you am all who will follow to the joyf\ll oc:.:mradeship." Q: And. that was by Jeny wallace. End of Side One, Tape One Q: He was quite a man with wc:n:ds wasn•t he? It gives you sane insight in to why he was so p:p.llar. A: Yes, l::ut it also pr:Obably, as fairly as can be expressed, is the basic philosophy of Qlrist Churcb. I think it's a very fair assessment of what Cllrist <lmrch st.arxm for. Q: He WCll.lld have been the minister aver a quarter of the time the church has been in existence because -we haven't made a hu.n::lred years yet. A: It makes it hard sanet.i.mes for men to follow SCIDeOJ'le like that. I don't lmc::N who suc:ceeded him offhan:i as rector. I have it sanewhere. was it Hauser? Q: I'm not sure, now let me see if one of the other :people mentioned it. But Shaffer, who did he follow? · A: Well he was late. Q: Yes, it was John Hauser and then Bill Jacobs and then Frank Shaffer? A: Now, Fat:het:' Shaffer was very greatly beloved and. it was a very sadt.h.in3" that he had to die because the cle:tgy were very ford of him am eve:rytne was very fond of him. Qlrist ChurC'h was l::lecani.r¥;J very healthy urx:ier him and slightly more c::e:t"ell.'al than it had been. Q: Now did Hoby follow him? A: I think so, I've got it SCI1lEi!Whe:ra here. Q: When you get a chance would you make me a copy of Jeny Wallace's letter? A: Yes. '!his is the paper I'm looki.rg for. Q: HCiby seems to have quite a devout fo11C7tllin:J? A: Yes, he1s a very fine person. Q: His simplicity attracts me. A: Hurldl.ey B. Baker wrote a historical sketch. 'Ibis was written on its 6oth anniversary. Q: Of au:ist Ch1rch in 1948? A: umer the first rector, the Reverend Frederick Clanptt, the Ki.rq's Daughter's Hane was established at 541 mack Avenue. Now I don't know what the K:ing''s Daughter's Hane was, do you? Q: '!he K:ing''s Daughter's Home is a group of wa:oen who sponsor a widOW' or an older lady. She takes enough fumiture with her to make a room of her own in the K.irg's Daughter's arrl then she turns a~.~er all of her assets to the society b.tt they support her. A: well this was 1890 that it was established by Cla:mpett. Q: He estal:>lished the Ki.nq•s Daughter's Hane. '!hat's inte:restirq. I didn't have any idea there was a oon:nection. What was the address on it? A: 541 Black Avenue. Q: It's still there. A: '!he next lon;;rer pastorate was that of Alexanier Allen which was 11 years. Q: Now when was he pastor? Alexan::Jer Allen? A: 1894 to 1906, that was Reverend Alexanier Allen. Q: SO Olrist Church is note:i for keepirq their rectors a lorq time? A: Yes, however this tells us sanet:l1irq about Bluford Wilson. Q: He was the force lJeh.i.rx1 the • • • A: He was the force ani he was probably the very best frien:i Bishop White had Cl'lDOl'lg' the lay people in the diocese. Q: Didn•t he contribute the :ttDneY for the entire parish house arrljthe garden? : A: It might be. "In 1914, Bluford Wilson, senior warden, gave $12,000 ~the CX'I.'lStru.ction of the parish house in :mercmy of his wife ani son. 'lhe c:::b.u:rctl assumed an additional cost of $7, 600 for fixbJres ani $3,ooo 1'CDX'e for i:mprovements. Frcm 1908 to 1917 he was rec:tor,II '!hatIS nine yea.I'S there, Q: Who was the rector? A: '!he rector then was :Reve:reni George Dln.lap. Q: So he was fran 1908 til 1917? A: until 1917 when Reverend !.ester I.eake Riley about whcm we justdisliked.. !.ester I.eake Riley was only a rector three years. But he started Troop 7, Boy scouts of America in the parish. '!hen followinghim in 1921 came Reverend Jeremiah Wallace. Q: Ani then who was it that followed him? A: Hauser. It's interesting here, "In 1921 the communicants l'lU1'llbered 256." Now if you considered that• s forty years since the beginnin;J, they only had 256 oammmicants in forty years. So the growth wasn•t very rapid. In 1928, seven years later, there were 474, al.n1cst doubled urder Wallace. It had it's biggest growth l.1l'der him ard when he resigned in 1946, the ca:mmmicant membel:ship was 620. SO again forty years you see. Q: Al..n'cst three times. He was truly a pastor. A: Yes, he was. so just before he ended his pastorate he dedicated two hport:ant lDil!l11'r.'.'.ial gifts, the :rlS'iiT re:reclos ard eight han:isane bronze lights to replace the old lig1:rtjn;J system. '!hose 'WOUld be the lights that light the church. Q: '!he han:Jing ones? A: Mrs. J. H. Holbrook. '!hen Mrs. Harry Dickenuan gave a c:reQenoe table. 'lhat•s the little table in the sanctuary where the wine and cruets are kept. Q: I knc:.w which one that is ard who was that given by? A: Mrs. Harry Dickerman in~of her son, James. Here's another int.eresti.ng t:l:lirg when Wallace was director he started the rotatin; system for the vestry. Q: Okay, I knc:.w what that is, where they have so many members elE!iCted each year to serve. A: Yes, he was the one who started this. Q; OkayI my husban:l is in the vestry llOW'. A: An:i then they tell about the bell installed in the tower given by Mr. ard Mrs. Harry Bl1nChman and the new illuminated bllletin board at the f:tant of the church. Q: Now that's gone. A: Fran Mr. and. Mrs. A. R. Booth. Jane Gillen gave two attractive offerinq basins. She was secz:etaJ:.y to Bishop Clough, Ola.rles A. Clough. He was the sixth Bishop of Sprinqfield. oonfirma.tion class in the history of Cbrist C:ru:rch was presented to Q: Who gave that l:.IUlletin board? A: Mr. am Mrs. A. R. Booth. Q: Ani this was all by people under Wallace. A: No, this was under Hauser. In November of 1947 the largest Bishop Richard T. Iorinq. He was Bishq), you know', for only six nalths. Q: Why? A: He died. He's buried under the high altar over hel:e at st. Paul's. Q: I didn't realize there was anybody under there. A: Yes, Bishop Clough. He 'WOUld be the fifth Bishq). 'lhirty-11i:r'¥a adults an::i ycunq people were the oonfirma.tion class. 'lba.t•s the 1~oonfir:ma.tion class in the history of Olrist Class at least upuntil 1947. Q: Ani M1at year was that? A: November of 1947. Q: 'lbat's a lot of people. Has Cbrist Qmrch had a much DD:re interesti:nq history than st. Paul's? A: No, they've J:::xJth gone even ways really. 'lhey've J:::xJth grownsinultatiously, Cbrist Qmrch is larger in CC11.11DlD'licant st.J::en;Jth. Q: I don•t renenher hc:lw many there are there now do you? Just an estimate, that's fine. A: Cil I can't estimate it offharxl. I think sanewhere a:rourrl nine hun.:b:ed. Q: Cil really? A: Ani st. Paul's is around seven llurdred, sanet:hi.n:J like that. Q: IS it true that Cbrist awrd:l gives DDre Ita".ley than any other parish? A: Well probably, I don't know'. It probably has the most wealth, I guess. I don't 'knew the OOl'.lg.t'egation well enough to knaw' but I would guess. we never d.iscovered why, but the Ridgely's were st. Paul's people. 'Ihey gave lllli.!llDrials to the cb.urch at st. Paul•s. vredenl::urgh was a member, the vred.enbul:ghs were members of st. Paul's. '!be Troxells were members of st. Paul1s. But I don•t know'. I talked to Bill ray abart this once and he seemed to think that Christ Church has really had to struggle financially all the tiJne 1'1C7il. Q: Now? A: Yes. Q: Yes, definitely. 'lbey're teyi.n] to buy the aparbnent behind us and the m:mey is goin:j to be veey difficult. A: I wcul.d think so. Of oourse the diocese did very well when theysold the Bishop's palace out here. '!be diocese really profitted by that sale. Q: Ard then there's still the prd:)lem with our current Bishop who's just left. Too bad isn't it? A: Yes, I have sane feeliLgs about it but there not that personal.think he got a raw deal. Q: Was he force:i to retire? A: I think so. Q: By wham? A: well I don't want to . Q: Want to reveal your sources? A: I don't want to oa:nment about it. was that on there? Q: You didn•t say anythiJq. A: You were askin;J me earlier about the story of the diocese so far as it's churcbmansh.ip was concerned how it developed etc. 'lhis is an i.nterest.irg item about Bishop Beymour, the first Bishop of Sprir¥;Jf'ield. He had been, in 1874, he had been elected Bishop of Chicago, but because of his churchmanship the House of Bishops in General canvent.ion refused to awrove his election. 'lhis upset the Diocese of a:dcago and it tumed aroun:l and it naninated Reve1:'en:i James DeCcven who was even mre to the left of Bishop Beymourritualistically. 'lhe diocese did it out of spite. When DeCoven refused the election, he was even a stauncher catholio-m.in:led priestthan 5eynnlr who was the Dean of General 'Iheological seminaJ:y. well anyhc::M, my father was Revererd Charles J. Shutt who was briefly in 1899-1900 chaplain to Bishops~ am Ci'tf missiam:y in Sprin1field. I have scanewhere m my p:ssess1.an a letter fran Bishop Beymour to my father in Wi.ch the Bishop sa¥8 he had to carry a gunarourd with him in the diocese to protect him because of his churchmanship. Q: Because he had the catholic? A: I saw the letter years ago and. I •ve never been able to firxl it. Q: 'ttlat would be an .int:.erestir.g story. I think there are sane pecplethat are that strarg yet. one day I haf.pened to 1Je there when an older person was left in the chu:rch ani awarentl-Y they hadn't been there for awhile ard the new Prayer Book had just carte out. '!hey said, ''Well if they w:r:e goir.g to follow that, they weren't oc:anin]back," and. that's pretty hal:tl for saneone like m to un::Ie:rst:a.n:. A: well there was a very strarg anti-Prayer Book movement in the National Q'l\.u::ch I.sague before the adoption of the present Prayer Book. 'lb.ousands of pec:.ple. Q: What is the azgument about? A: I don't knc:M because I like it. Q: What did they say? A: <h it was sanetllifg they are used to. '!hey had this same arguD.'lell'tin 1898 when the Prayer Book was adopted. '!here was a great manysquabbles over what was included in that prayer book. Q: Well I knc:M one of the people asked • • • A: .JUst what you get in habit, you knc:M habit is awfully st:ronq. Q: BUt sanebody asked Bishop Hillestad if they'd p.1t the devil back in or left him out? He said, ''No, they'd put him back in." So youknc:M I don•t l..1Diersta.nd the ba.ckgl:cund on the Prayer Book argument. A: Well the rest of this is an article I wrote called "'!he Biretta Belt." I gave it at a conferet'li.'Je. Q: What kind. of belt? A: '!he Biretta, 1"11W that's the local three conte:t'ed hat that has been worn by clergyman. '!hey don't wear it anymore in the diocese, theyused to. It has three corners, it's black ard it sits on top of the head. Q: <h, k:ind. of like the revolutionazy hat? A: yes, except it has three corners. Q: And it goes to a point? A: No, it doesn't go to a point but it was wom by the so-called ''high ctmrob." clergy. I wrote an article about this to these seven or eight dioceses in the Province 5 whic:h make up what I call the Biretta Belt in the catholic dioceses. 'Dlat has not.h.ir¥.J to do with what yw. are interested in. 16 Q: Blt where are they? A: well in Chicago, ani Eau Claire, and Forrlulac, Milwaukee, Northern Irxti.ana, Quincy1 and SprinJf'ield. Q: NOW' why are they particlularly that? A: well they have the ''high church" diocese. I don't like the tenn but churdles that follOW' catholic ritual and philosophy ani are verystrict, they would all be opposed to o:rdination of wcanen, ani ••• Q: 'lhat still is the fonnat here isn•t it? A: Oh yes, I don't think that will dlarge in this diocese no matter who is elected Bishop. Q: we have a yol1I'q wanan in church l10W' who would like to beoc:me a priest and Hoby said to her1 11Well don1t worry1 if they WOl1It allOW' you to go in here, I '11 send you to Arizona to my brother ani he'11 sponsor you. 11 (laughter) A: Yes, he's an assistant bishop. Q: A what kind? A: He's the assistant bishop of Arizona, Bishop Heistan:l. Q: Oh I thought he was the Bishop? A: No, he's not, there are two Bishops. 'lhey divide up the work in the diocese. In regani to ritualism in the church, in the national church, the last great struggle was in 1874. In 1874, General convention, which is the govemin;J :body of the Episcopal Church, left it up to each Bishop and Diocese as to what innovations would be allc:Med. In 1904, the last remaining canon taw, l10W' canon taw is the church law, on ritualism was mopped fran the laws of the church. Q: What was it? A: Eucharistic adoration. Adoration of the Blessed sacrament, am it's no larger. Q: What did it mean? A: well it was a specjal service where the host is put in a 1lK>l'lS'trance up in the altar and wortrlpped, with Olrist being present in that foxm. Q: Did they believe that the body and the blocxi are acutually the same thin;(? 17 A: Aix:l this adoration was against c:hurdl law until 1904 ani then it was drqped. so after 1904 there hasn't been any. 'lhe nv::st recent controversy in the chul:dl is over the ordination of wanen as priestsani the defection of certain Episcopal Qrurches, because of that and because of the Prayer Book to fonn another c:::hul:ch. the last one until about two or three years ago. Q: What seems to be the main abjection to the Prayer Book? A: Well I think it's just because it's new. Q: Have they fought over every charqe in the Prayer Book. 1928 was A: Yes, and there was a big fight aver that. Q: Yes, I was in the church enough to find that out. A: Because in 1894 had been the other Prayer Book exchan;;Je ani in 1928 there was a great to-do over all that and the i.rmovations. OUr new Prayer Book is terrific. It has everyt.hin; in it that you could poss:ibly want in the way of the service. Q: It does ani it's so easy to follow. A: Well I don't know, it's just a matter of old people set in their ways. I'm an old person but I'm not set in my ways, that's for sure. I don't know how else to explain it except that it's the same thing aspeople in a church want to sit in the same pew they've set in for a lon:J time0 Why'? Q: Habit is canfortable. A: It's habit, it's canfortable. I play a great deal of bingo and weall sit in the same place, the same people, why I don't know. Q: Your lucky spot? I was just wonieri.ng if there was sanethingreally specific that they could find to object to. A: Now what is going to ha:ppen, the Province 5 is made up of thirteen dioceses, I think it's thirteen. I.et me see I can name them: Northern Michigan, Fornulac, Eau Claire, Milwaukee, arlcago, North.enlIniiana, Spr~ield, southem Ohio, Ohio, Michigan, Western Michiganan:l Missouri. I don't know heM many that is. Is that thirteen? Q: Twelve. Is there DDre than one in Michigan or DDre than one in Indiana? A: Well yes but not • • • Q: let's see we had North Michigan • A: Northam Michigan, western Michigan an:i Michigan. 18 Q: Yes, I've got all three of those, two in Ohio. Oh, Quincy isn't in here. A: Quincy, okay, that makes thirteen. NCM then Missouri just came into the Province. It was part of the 6th Province which oonsistedl of Texas and sane western states and Missouri just felt this was off. 'Ihey were closer to the middle 'WeSt. Q: In philosqily? A: well no it•s East Missouri and it's st. IDuis and see there's Western Missouri in another diocese in Missouri. Q: Ani this is East Missouri? A: well just Missouri, and it felt itself was closer to the eoanomy. It has with the cc:anin;J of the diocese of Missouri, the division, the partisan division is even l"lCW'. '!here are just as many, thirteen you can•t divide equally, but we111 say there are six that are rather catholic and siX that are rather l:il:eral. catholics be conservative largely and maybe one lea.nin;. Northam Michigan might lean so there could be a tie vote in the Province by the delegates. Q: How many delegates does each • • • A: I don 't k:nolr.r what the proportion is, each diocese is allCME!d a certain l1lliDber of delegates. Q: According to their population? A: 'Ihey are elected by the senate of the Diocese. Q: NCM what is the senate canprised of? A: '1be senate is canprised of the clergy and lay people of the A: I don't know 'Who, I know who the delegates would be to the regular senate but I don't know 'Who the elective senate. It's separate it's not the same. No, I think the regular delegates elected to the regular senate are also going to be delegates to this senate who will elect a Bishop. Diocese. Q: Elected people to represent them? A: '1be clergy are not elected they are autanatic. Q: axt the lay people are? A: '!he lay people are elected by each Parish. Q: Jim and MaJ:y Wi.nn.in;;r have been very active in curs. you knc7.ot? I mean fran Clrist Church? Who else, jdo ' Q: Arxi that's a very special an::l selected purpose for that, they'll only elect the Bishop an::l that's all? A: 'Ihat's all. Q: Who do you think is go~ to be the new Bishop? A: 'lbere are already eleven or twelve naninees. Q: AnybcXly you see as a forerunner? ~the history. A: Well there will be a number of diocesan clergy nanina.ted just out of honor. Q: And Hoby has asked that he not be nani.nated. A: Yes, well he probably won't be arrl so has the Dean over here, DeKay. Q: I saw him sun::lay at Churdl. canp. A: But I think Father Malottke fran Jacksonville will be nominated probably an::l I wouldn't be surprised but what Father, the rector of Bloomi.rqton, his name escapes me right l'lOW. Q: You are IlUlCh. better at names than I would have been. A: I'11 think of his name in a minute. Q: Do you think there will be art:/ great conflict? A: Well there is a priest art:side of the Diocese in Northern Michigan \\he Mary Winnir:g is interested in b.rt I don't know Who it is. Q: She's the person who is willin;r to do battle for what she t:hi.nks. A: She told ~who it was, but I don't remember. 'lhe only other outside camidate that I know of is the present suffragan assistant bishop of IBllas, Texas, Bishop Terwilliger. He's goin;J to be He's already a Bishop. naninated and if he's elected he will accept. Q: But is he Catholic or lil::eral.? A: He follC1NS the tradition of the Vatican. Q: Why would he accept here if he's already a Bishop? A: Well he's just an assistil:g Bish.c:p. He has no Diocese, he's just put to work by the Bishop of Dallas, whatever the Bishop of Dallas wants him to do. Q: But he's just an assistant an::l this would give him a full BisJ:l.ct>. A: Ani this 'WOUld give him, he'd be a diocesan. He just is translated. Because he's already a Bishop, there's no consecration. Q: He is the only one. A: He is enthroned, given his seat in the catl:lredal as a Bishop of the Dioc::sse. Q: Ard as he stands l'lCM' he doesn•t have that. A: No. He's nationally known in the d:mrch, very widely known Which is of sane benefit to a small diocese. Q: Are w a small diocese? A: We are a small diocese. Not ~lycertainly, there is sixty-one counties. Well about nine tha.lsa:rr:l CCII1llJimicants, so we are small. Q: Did w keep a missiOI'Ial:y status very lorg? A: we never was a missiOI'Ial:y diocese, should have been. wt what happened was that Bishop 5eym::IUr, the first Bishop of Springfield, came from a very pra.ninent New York family who had a good deal of lll:ll'leY· He was in:'3.epemently wealthy when he became Bishop of Springfield ani he gave his salary to the diocese instead of accepting it. But they didn't actually ••• way back in the 1870's they -weren't as particular about diocese. A diocese was a diocese if it could~a Bishop and it just barely could support a Bishop,raise enough ma.ney to support a Bishop. It should have been a missiorm.y diocese to begin with. see the whole state of Illinois was cut up into three dioceses in 1877 ani the JOOSt heavlly populated and wealthiest portion of the state is in the arl.caqo area. Q: 'Ihe same as the rest of the state in other ways. A: Ard ~isall the counties west of the Illinois River in the Diocese of Quincy. All the rest of the 0Cilll1ties in nlinois below the 2nd tier of counties in nlinois belcn;J to the Diocese of Spring:field. Q: Which 'WCUld include like what, Joliet? A: 'lhe. northernmost part of the diocese of Springfield begins in Morton 'Which is just outside of Peoria. Peoria is in the Diocese of Quincy. Q: Mortan is north of it? A: Morton is east of Peoria, a subu:tb practically. It goes all the way c1cwn to cairo, the tip of the state. Q: But that is covering an awful lot. 21 A: '!hat•s ooverin; an awful lot of territmy ani the S'trorl3'eSt parishes in the Diocese are Olrist Chu:l::ch., Sprirgfield, st. Johns,Decatur, st. Matth.ews, BlOCIII.ir'gton, Trinity Chu:l::ch., Ja.cksorwille, the Cathedral Olul::t:h, Sprin;field, st. PaUl's, Alton. We call those the CaJ:dina1 parishes. '!hey support t:.cgether more than eighty percent of the Dioceses. Erd of Side 'l'Wo, Tape one Q: And so you wrote this in 1977 for a h'I.Irl:!red years of the diocese. A: Yes. We printed about 20,000 copies ani I've got about two hurx:b:ed left. Q: Ch that's great. A: we sold them for a dollar. (looking at the book) Here are the pictu:t.1l!s of the Bishaps and. a brief ske1:c:tl of each Bishop ani then this is a history under each of the Bishops, what happened under each Bish.cp. Q: Ch, that is int:erestil'q. A: 'lhen I wrote a history of every churc:h in the diocese and a list of the rectors, the dates that they served ani pictures of everychurch. Q: A lot of research. A: So this is everyt:hir:q you want to knclw about the Diocese of Sprin;field. Q: Is in there yes. well that•s great because then I can ask nuch more intelliqent questions. A: I.cok at for e:xanple, films are int.e:restinq because they are all different, they're all different types. 'Ibis is the best picture I could get of Christ Church. 'Ihese are the :rest of the rectors to date and this is just a brief sketch I had for each one of these. Q: How lOl"q did it take you to get the material for this? A: we:u I had done this over a period of years and. what I had to do was corx1ense it. So it wasn't so difficult because it was justcu:tti.:rg out. Q: 'lhe:re is no assigned ardrltectur::e then in this diocese whatever? A: No, there was U1."der Bishop 8eyJln.tr and Bishop OSbol:ne, diocesan architect by the name of Seathcliff l1bo lived in Chicago. He was the consultant down then but not:hing very much ever came of it. 22 Q: so sane of them were even in houses? A: Well just that one, they ha:ve a churc:h now. Q: D:l you think the Episcopal Olu:rd:l is still a g:rcwirq churcib.? A: Well it's growir.g, it grows sla,rly. You can tell by the, I think I have a list here the number of <Xmlllmicants aver a period of years. Q: SO it's up to 7,ooo, 7,300 in 1975? A: Yes it's more than that now. see that was 1976 and the present COili'I'IUrli.c st.:re:D;rth, well it's not D.1Ch more than that, 7,097. This would be 1979. Q: '!hat was a drq>, there was 7309. A: Well the trouble with statistics is . .. Q: '!hey are not very accurate. A: A're not very accurate arrl clergyman keeps the record and the next clergyman comes alonJ decides to clean the list up and drops a lot of names. People don't oc:ane to church and don•t pay and they are disconnected naninal.ly. '!hat winnows out a lot of people and another clergyman c:ames alCI.IYJ and adds. so these figures are approximate. 1b.e:re are 9,300 baptized members but that does not mean that they are confirmed. It just means that they are members of the church. 'lhere are 9,303 Episcopalians. Q: In this Diocese? A: In this Diocese. Q: For all of the churches that doesn't seem like very many does it? A: 'D1ere are 42 churches. Q: .Approximately 500 people per church. A: COuld divide it up easily enough. Q: No that's okay. A: Acoord.irJ1 to ·this, there are 947 ccmmuni.cants in Christ Cl"J.urch, am that means confir.med. You see statistically we divide pecple q> into two qrc:~U~S, baptized persons and oonum.micants. You are a OOil1l'lll1lica when you have been confirmed. You are not a canununicant When you are baptized, you are just a member. Q: Okay, I am a COlllll.l.micant then. A: A:rd there are not too many mre baptized mmbe:rs in Christ Churdl, 961. st. Paul's is 609, so there are, that's a little less than 300 communicants in Olrist Churdl than st. Paul's. Q: I didn•t realize that Christ Churdl • • • A: Well Olrist Church has the largest cc:mmmicants. Q: In the diocese? A: In the diocese. Next is st. Paul's of course, and then Alton. NC7i1 there are 225 ha.:lseholds in Christ Church who make a pledge to the diocese, or make a pledge to the Parish. Q: 'lhat's what I was t:hi:nkirg of awhile ago when you said 900o I thought it was high 1::ut it's the households. A: '!here are 225 households and accordinq to this figure the pledge, and this wculd be for 1979, $127,655o Alton again wculd be secon:i in the size of giv.irg. Q: Even though they are thil:d in size with members they're secon:i in giving? A: Yes. Acoordi.ng to this, in those 225 households in Olrist Qrurch, the average pledge per week is $7.37 which is pretty 1C7il per household. Q: 'lb.e:re are a lot of people who are not wealthy now at Olrist Chu.rch. I think that the core of substantial give:rs have kind of gone. 'lhey lNere the older people of the wealthier families and I think there's really been a c::hargeo A: NOW' Olrist Qrurch gives $38,000 plus 1:ol'rla:t.'Cs the general cburch, to the diocese and the general c:hu:rd1. I don't know how that's divided. between the diocese and the general c:hu:rd1. 'Itle parish expenses are $99,200. Q: '!bat's just for Olrist Qrurch? A: Yes. 'lhen the rector's salary is $22,000. Q: I was t:hi:nkirg it was mre like $16,oo? A: Well aocordinq to this it isn't. Q: It's been awhile since I even looked at it. A: '!he pxesent land value is $122,500. 'lhat's the land value, the property value. Q: Of Christ Church? 24 A: Yes, the lani value, the 1ani itself, but the property value is • Q: over a million? A: Is over a million, it's a million two hundred thousand and theJ:e is over a million dollars worth of insurance. Q: Right I was at the vestry when they updated the insurance ani that was in 1980. A: see these journals are printed a year after they are sent to me so the information is for the precedirg year. Q: Here is another question I'd like m:>re or less for mt own information but it will be interestirv;J for the paper too. Would you explain the rank of the different titles, like chaplain, reverend ani very reverend ani those? A: Bishops in the Episcopal Olurch, in the American Olurch, are known as the Right Revererrl. Q: And that is just a title? A: '!hat's a title. Bishop is the onli.nary title for Bishops. 'n1e rector is elected by the congregation. The vicar is aPI;Ointed by the Bishop ani is in charge of a mission. Q: He's in cbarge of what? A: Of missions, any mission in the diocese is in the ~of the vicar. The bishop is the rector of wery mission in the diocese but he has priests in charge of the congregation as a vicar. Q: Are there very many, well there are vicars here? A: Well yes, there would be, aside fran those large parishes. Very Revererrl is a title used usually for deans of the deanery in areas. Q: What is the deanery? A: A deaneJ:y is made up of several c:x>ngl:egations in the Diocese, geographically divided, I think there are. Q: DeKay is a deanery? A: No, he is a dean of the Cathedral. Q: Ch, what's the difference? A: Well deanery is made up of, is a title for an organization of congregations, a geographical organization. Q: How is that as OQ;XJSed to the diocese? 25 A: 'Well it's part of the diocese but it is a decentralization, supposed to be. in the diocese. In other words there are five geographical areas. Q: It's sort of like OCJI.ll'lties in a state? A: well yes. Q: What wa.tld be the criteria to have a deanery? A: I'd have to look at the constitution l:ut there are five deanerys Q: I see. A: '!his is the Ecclesiastical Organization of the Diocese. You have the deanerys ani then you have the bishop and council which is made upof elected members, clery an:i lay people, elected by the synod. It1s the general governin:;J body of the Diocese. 'lhen there1 s the st.am:irgccmmittee of the Diocese which is the adv~oamnittee to the bishopand if there is no it becc:anes the ecclestiastical authority as it is now. Q: Are those lay people and priests? A: '!he standirr;J committee is made up evenly of two laymen ard two clm:gy an:i there are six people there or maybe eight. '!heir terms of office rotate. Two clergy an:i two lay people electe:i by the senate. Q: So four people make the standirr;J committee? A: Well I can tell you exactly. Wait a minute. Q: '!his is so interestin:J to me because that1s not sanet.h.irq you getdurirg confirmation classes. A: well let's see, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. '!here are eight members of the standirr;J committee and their terms are staggered. When you're the pennanent committee of the diocese, it advises the bishcp and in the absence of the bishop they beoc:ane the bishop. In other words, they are ecclesiastical authority.Everytl1in;J is oorxiucted urx:ier the standing oamnittee. '!he present setup of ~'everythin;J is done by the starnin; committee. Q: Who are the standing o:mnittee right now do you Jcnot.t? A: Yes. '!he terms up in this year, 1981, is Reveren:i Eckford DeKayand Rebert Harlow of Alton, so there will be two vacan:::ies there to be elected in this syncd caning up. Q: can they Se:tVe mre than one tenn? A: No. Q: step down and new people. 26 A: 1982 class is Heistan:i and Dr. RdJert R1lme.ty of Blcxani:rJ;Jt:at. R-u-M-E-R-Y. He is a professor at Northern. Q: Cb it would be Illinois state University at Nonnal.. A: Yes, Dr. Robert Rumery, he lives in Bloc:::mrl.n;ton. In 1983, Revererd Richard Bennett of Bloani.rqton, he's the rector of st. Matthews, he's the one who's named. I think he'll be naninate:l too as Bishop and 'lhanser B. Shafer of Danville. 1984 is the last class and that is Reverend Canon O'Ib:Uey Reed. Q: What is a RevererXl Canon? A: well a canon is an honoraey title qiven to a priest by a bishop.'!he Canon of the cathedral is an honoraxy title. He's President of the s1:an:iing camnittee -a:M and then the layman is 'IhaDas BurroUghs of Collinsville. '!hat makes eight members. 'lben the invesbnents of the diocese and all of that m:nies are handled by the trustees of the diocese who are elected and then there is the Diocesan Council whichis made up of elected clergy and elected lay people. '!hey are a general body that meets between synods, they meet two or three times a year. Q: What is their function? A: Oh, they have their camnisions of the Diocese. 'lhe deans are members, the camnittees, <llristian education, mission strategy,lit.uzgy and life, special ministries, all of those are specialcommittees of the diocese. Q: And they are administered by the Diocesan COUncil? A: '!hey are made up of these clergy and lay people. '!he bishop is the president ex-officio always. '!hen there are different commissions. well there is onl¥ canmission on the ministry. 'Ibis is a ccmnission that examines cantidates for the ministry and they joinwith camnissions of other diocese in the province to examine. It's calle:i PACAM. 'lhat's the Bishops Advisoey o:mnittee on the Ministry, BACAM, and they meet several tinEs a year and interview-lay people,both lay and clergy interview caniidates for the ministry. Q: Now what would sa.nebody like Harey Newman be? A: Well he is a perpetual deacon, he will not be a priest. Q: What is that? . A: Well he'11 always be a deacon, that's the first onier of the jministey. '!here are deacons, priests and bishops, the three o~ and each have specific functions. ! I i Q: Okay, now we have that Eloise and Grimes is . • • 27 A: Now Grilnes is a priest ani he is the Diocesan hospital chaplain. He visits nursing banes ani hospitals, he is a diocesan ani appointed by the bishop. Q: Ani he does take over for priests who are on vacation? A: sanetiiDes, but he m::stl.y visits hospitals ani the sick ani the nursi.nq banes, healing ani things like that. Q: '!hat's another thin:J I wanted to ask you about. How much of the healing services ani t:hi.rgs have occurred. A: Not very manyI not very much. Q: What is it called the order of st. I..uke? A: Yes, he's a member of it. I think they had a healing mission at Cllrist Cl1Urch once. Q: '!hey keep teyi.nq to get it going. A: But it doesn't take a hold at all in the diocese. Q: How does it differ fran the regular services? A: I've never attended one. Q: That makes two of us. A: '!he priests places his hands I think on the person an::1 prays over them. I don't know much about it to be perfectly honest. Q: I know Hoby seems to be quite interested in it. A: well there are many clergy who are. NCM the delegates to the synod, our provincial synod so called, there are three of them ani they serve three different years and they are elected by the synod.'Ihe province meets about once a year, maybe twice a year, these thirteen dioces. Q: so they are not nearly as influentual as they could be. A: well they could be because if they1d, there•s always a bureaucracyin New York City in the church, a lot of feeling that oaul.d be decentralized an::1 :rrore of the powers spread out. Q: Do you think that the Episcopal dmrch is ncre political than others? A: Ci1 I don't think so. It depends on what you mean, political. well I don't think so, I don't think you can say that generallybecause it depends on the individual bishop. 'Ihe bishop in New York is very political, Bishop Moore, he takes stands on ltK:lSt any liberal. 28 Q: Now is he in favor of or:dina.tion of WCII.Iell? A: Yes, am. he's ordained lesbians. Q: Married them? A: No that hasn't OCI.!le about yet, he probably would. Q: '!bat's very li:beral. A: SO he's unique. SO it depen:1s on the personality of the Bishop if the Bishop wants to be active politically, he can be active politically as influenc~e after all. A bishop has influenc~e, but I wouldn't say, he can only make a general statement about it am. it's on pretty -weak grounds. Bishops generally are not specificallyinterested in politics. Q: Do you think even chm:t:b politics? A: Now chm:t:b politics is something' else again? Q: Do you think there is a q.reat deal of it in the l!.pisc::xJpa1 QlUrch? A: Well there is in General convention and there is in the election of the Bishop sanet.i:mes be!cause you are electing a Bishop just like you elect the qoven10r or el.E.ICt a president. You are electing sanebody to be the authority. so there is maneuvering unfortunately. Q: But that's human nature right? A: But that's human nature and ordinarily it wcmc:s out for the best and if it WOJ:Xs out for the best we have a tend.en.cy to say that was the work of the Holy Spirit. (laughter) Q: Do you think that the Midwest is as in many other th..in;;Js the conservative force? A: Well it's supposed to be. I think it's an exaggeration. We are part of What is called the Bible Belt, Central Illinois an:i East Central Illinois. 'lhe Bible Belt is the fun:1amentalist Olristian churttles, Baptists, Cbritians, Assembly of God am. all those sects. Q: 'lhat1s interesting that this area would stay so conservative. A: Well it is though. Midwesterners are conservative, not :rednecks but they are conservatives. You'd be interested in this picture of Qlrist an.trcb. I don't know 'When it was taken but it shairls a house on one side ard a house on the other side. Q: Oh that's the 1888 version of the chm:t:b. A: With the t'\'.«) houses there? 29 Q: Yes, that's hc:w it was originally built. Did you know' all the praise that was heaped upon the church because of the rcurDed chancel. '!he articles fran the state Joun1al. ~isterls really interesting. I mean it cp:ves greaten the construction, the woods, everyt:hi.n:J abc:nt 1t. But that was the way it looked originally. Mrs. SChoening said there was an iron fence but it doesn•t show it in this picture. It had to be right after it was built. A: well I~so, there is no date on the back of it ani saneone gave it to me. as it originally looked. Q: What does it say on the back of it? A: It just says Christ Church Springfield, Illinois. Q: I would say that picture is before the 1914 addition because it's A: 'lhere's no date. I don't know' when it was. Before they added the mission at scme time or other. Q: Fairly recent, you can see the big building next door. What is that buildirg called, the one to the north of Christ Church? A: '!hat's the Masonic Tenple. Q: '!he Masonic Tenple, the other one d.own the street is the Shrine,down at COOk street. A: Yes, I have several letters fran Bishop 8eym:JUr, and Mr. webster and others, original letters. 'Ibis was the Clampett oont.roversy. am it was over ••• Q: 'Ibis was Revererrl Alexamer Allen, :nc:w does he stay lent? I can't remember Wuit you told me about hi:m? A: Yes, he was here far 11 years. Q: Have most of the ministers been as conservative in their style of preachin;J as Hoby, who is the only one who I have really witnessed? A: well yes, the Episcopal Church doesn't enphasize preaching in their seminaries. We don1t have veey many great preadlers in the church. Q: It's k1rxi of hard to get a great sennon going in ten minutes. A: well the unusual thi.n:J about this is you are suwosed to write a sennon and the general intelligence of your oorq.regation is ~ to be sort of uneducated so you have to talk down to them, but I dcl'l.' tthink that1s right. 30 '!here was a question about the first rector of Christ Church. '!here was a good deal of oorrespnEnce ard I copied these letters. 'Ibis letter is to Bishop Potter of New York fran Bishop 5eynDJr who rec:x:amnenled him very highly to Bishop 5eynDJr. Bishop SeynDur quotesthe nnoor, '"'he Reveren:i Mr. Cl~disclaims having done what was attributed to him invitirg, that 1S Christians of other religiousbodies, to oct'l1e forward ard partake of Holy o::mto.mion. He assures me that he did not do this. still further, that he desires in all things to be a loyal law-abic:lirg clergyman obeyin;J as far as possible the reverence of the Prayer Book ani the cannons of the Church. I believe him ard will gratefUlly accept him fran you as a good gift to the Diocese of Spr~ield." He had been aooused of inviting people to open camnunion ard he said that he disclamed that. "Arxi if you follow the rubrics of the Prayer Books," those are the little tiny print of the prayer, of the 1928 Prayer Book aeyway. Q: What is it called? A: Rubrics, the regulations, how to conduct the sm:vioes etc. Rubrics provides specifically the 1928 Prayer Book did anywaythat you had to be confinned to take OCili'IIJI'lion. If you invited anybody to take ocmmmion it would be against you. Q: It was a..1Joost like he'd camnitted adultery? A: so then Blu£0!d Wilson writes, If Reverend Clanpett had had a ~with the Bishop of Chicago aver this open camm.mion, this was the t:hin;J that was in the backgrouzxl before Clanpett but he is now elected. Blu£ord Wilson writes, "Feeling ard knc::Mi.n;J as we do that neither the rector nor aey member of his parish was justly chargeable with aey misoorX!uct on the occasion of the visit of the Right Reverend Bishop and the matter of the newspaper plblication which constituted a particular ~leoffense to him, we kind of oonsent to rest quietly given his pennanent disclosure." Bishop 8eymoUr writes to Clmrpet.t in rega:td to this. 'lhe Churchman, I suppose it's a Spr~ield churchman had sane reflections on Clmrpet.t and the Bishop,well it was all a ten'pest in the teapot as a matter of fact, but certain allocations were made about Clampett. Q: He had a tinge of liberalism I suppose? A: Yes, there was also a controversy over Dr. Taylor, the dean or the rector of st. Pauls. 'lhe whole t.hirq involved over this controversy.It worked itself rut all right and Bishop 8eymoUr acoepted him. But it created a ruckus to begin with. '!his may have reflected in part this division of the kind of people that left st. Paul to fonu Christ Church. '!his thing may have been an afterglow. One ten:Js to think so. It didn1t annmt to much. Q: I firrl it very difficult to even feel any conflict at that but I suppose at that time it was a big thirg? A: Oh yes. Ern of Side One, Tape 'IWo Q: What is the major changes, maybe even with the corr:Jregatia'l opposed to just ministers in your years with the chur:dl? A: You mean the relationship? Q: Do you see a different Jdn::l of people beoaning Episcopalians? Or do you find it stayin:.J in families? A: 'Well the Episoopal Church has attractecl the middle and upperclass people. Q: Is that historically true too? A: '!hat is historically true. '!he ''best families" in the cx:mnunity usually belen; to the Episcopal Church. Q: '!he most wealthy too? A: '!his is true. Q: W'ashington was an Episoopalian. A: 'Ibis is a qeneralization but it does. Q: Why do you think that happens? A: I think it's a social thing. It may have oame from the east where the chur:dl is very old of course and established. Q: A canyover frau England? A: I suppose so and people just like to belen; to a church that has praninent people in it. I guess that's human nature. '!he largest ~ionof blacks in the Episcopal Church is in Chicago on the southside. I can't tell you the name of the congregation but it has close to 2,ooo members am of oou:rse we have a black bishop in Chicago. Q: Oh, we do? A: 'lhe assistant bishop is black, Bishop Primo. 'lhe Bishop assistirg, he is called a Suffragan or Assistant Bishop. '!he Bishop of wasb.i.n]ton D. c. is black. Q: Is he assistant? A: No, he is the Bishop of W'ashington. Connecticut has just electecl a black as an assistant bishop. Q: 'Dlen there's a gooci portion of the membership in the Episcopal Church that has becx'lte black, or are black? 32 A: Very small. '!here was established durirq the E;piscx:.lpate of Bishop ~a black congregaticm in cairo called st. Michael's which existed for 25 or 30 years a:rryway, anCl had black priests, but it died out. st. I.uke's originally was a black parish. Q: Here in Sprir:gfield? J: won::iered. Where is that located? A: It's on south Grand, on the corner of south Grand ani 16th str:eet,it's East. During the time that Bishop OSborne, the secon::l Bishop of Spri.rgfield, was Bishop, Booker T. Washington came to Spri.rgfield and was a guest of the Bishop ani int:e1:ested. a number of local people in establish.ir.g a manual training institute for black men in Spri.rgfield. J:t existed for alx:.ut four years up on the northeast side of Spri.rgfield. IJ:hat neighbom.ood then was J:1l.'.)t black canpletely ani eventually the people arourd there we:r:e racists ani d.idn•t like the idea of having a black school there so it probably was sold. '!here's been no black work in the diocese. Q: Do you knc::M' where it was located? Even qenerally? A: I think the building is still standi.nq. It1s up near the John Hays Homes, in that area. If you really want to know I'll go look it up. Q: No, don't do that. A: Because I've written ani got a lat of material in negro work,black work in the diocese. But those we:r:e the only two, st. I.uke's nc::M is mixed. Q: But they are sort of socially active in this city, aren't they? A: Yes, Father Ktueger is. Q: Now, he's a White priest right? A: We had a black priest in the diocese in 1908. Q: ttlat was very ycurg wasn't it? A: st. I.uke's. ~!bat was the year of the famous race riots in Springfield ani he got scared ani he packed his ba.qs one night and left withrut telling anybody, J:1l.'.)t even the Bishop. Q: Do you :re.mem1 er his name? A: I'd have to look it up but there was a story in the paper 't:hol.qlani it was part of these riots here lo\bich we:r:e racist. It's quite an interest:1rq stoty which sh.cW.dn•t have haJ;.pened. at all. Q: Sprin;Jfield is a very int:e.t'estirg city. A: But anyhow he was in cha:J:ge of st. I.uke's. st. I.uke's was originally st. Augustine's. st. Allgustine's was a missicm established 33 on the northeast side of the city for negroes ani then the Hickox family gave the comer property where st. I.1lke' s is :now to the diocese. Q: '!he people who amed the aparboents? A: well that family. 'lhey were members of st. Paul's. Q: one of the descen:1ants is still at Christ <lnm:h. A: And gave this property where st. I.llke's :now is ani so the mission became st. I.llke's. Because of that the blacks lived over on the southeast side. Q: If you do have time I would like to have a copy of your work on the blacks. '!hat's quite interesti.rq0 A: well it's not one solid manuscript. Q: well when you have time if you could make me copies. A: But that's the only work I knc::M. Also durirg the Episcopate of Bishop Clough, who would be the sixth Bishop of Sprirgfield, he refused to have a Diocesan dinner at the st. Nicholas Hotel because they would not serve negroes. NOW' that's within recent time. Q: '!hat would probably be still in my lifetime? A: well it would be sc:mewhere about the 1950's, said that st. Nick's refused to save blacks. Q: I remember when they couldn't go in. A: '!he Bishop refused to have a Diocesan dinner the.re because of that. Q: I didn't realize that the blacks had been accepted that much within the church. A: st. Paul's now has one black family. I think he's a professor at s~state, I'm not real certain about that but he's a professional. Q: we had a very ~black family. He was on the state Board of Higher Education but he's gone, they just moved away. 'lhere were one or two others that came fairly regularly ani I haven't seen a:ey of them lately. A: well this family CXIlleS rather regularly to st. Paul's. Q: Petersons did at Christ Onlrch. A: But it goes back to what we were tal.kirg about about the climate of the Episcopal Church that attracts. It doesn•t attract lower class people ani the ghet.to-type people, it doesn't make religion easy.'lhese Assembly of God. clnJ.:r:ches ani all of those sects, all you have to do is say, "I accept Jesus as :m,y Cilrist," and. that's it, I mean there is no discipline. '!hose type of people do mt like the conservative ritualistic kin:i of churches. I mean all of the IJlthe:rans, ani the Roman catholics and. the EPiscopalians ani the P:cesbyterians in part,well Roman catholics not so nuch as the Presbyterians and the EPiscopalians, are close socially on an econamic scale. 'lbe same ld.rn of families bel01'11 to both. Q: '!be catholic church has a nuch wider spectrum. A: Wider yes, there are twelve Reman catholic c:hurches in Springfield. Q: Are there really that many? '!hat's a lot. A: So you111 notice I said Roman catholic? Q: we have ane Greek orthodox. A: Yes, I think there's a Greek orthodox:. I say Ranan catholic because if you say catholic, catholic means universal. Q: Right. A: And the Roman catholic church is not the universal church so we are all catholics because we are all members of the Christian Church. So I use the tenn Roman catholics to designate that specific point.'!he tenn catholic ani Protestant are so CCIIllJX)!l rx:M that the meaninq is anything, Churches other than the orthodox ani Roman catholics are all P.rotestant Churc:hes1 all lunped together• Q: I:o you think the ecumenical JIDVeiDel'lt is having a lot to do with that? A: I think soI I think itIs very st.J:anq. 'lhe l'I.10Ve.l.l\el between the Episcopal Church and. the Roman catholic Church, the lutheran Cburd1 and. the orthodox are very strong' ani is a very st.ronq JOOVeltle!1t t.owan1s tllat kind of ph.Uosophy. Q: I:o you think people's attitude has chanqed a lot in your yearswith the church? A: well I have not met ll1a.J1Y EPiscopalians ani I may probably inclu:ie myself as ane. let me put it this way, I •m an EPiscopalian not because of conviction but probably because of :m,y ba.c'kg:t'oun:i. Myfather was an Episcapa.l cl~~I was raisEid in the EpiscopalChurch ani I aooepted the E;p1scopal Church but nat out of any persa:'l8.l convictions. It was the church to vmich I have always qone and. I think this is rather, I think that the new people who are c:x:m.tin;J into our church are oa:ning in because they see sanet:tti.n;J lacld.rq in the Baptist Olurch, the Methcx:Iist Olurch, the Cilristian Cburdl, Presbyterian Church, sanething, M"latever it is that the Episcopal has Fhil.ip L. Shutt that those cht..u:c:hes dan't have. I think this is the treni. I thirlk this is the reason. Q: Ib you think people are wantin;r what1s consistent in a time of turnoil? A: Oh, I think so. I don't think they want to take the whole leap over to the RaDan catholic ChUl:ch you see. Q: Because most Protest:a:nts have been brought up to never becane a Ranan. catholic. A: Yes, and the leap is too great. It's easier to become an Episcopalian and then if you want to go on a:rd then becane a Roman catholic because there are many similarities in the Ranan. catholic Church ard the Episcopal Chul:ch. I think that most of the ~ people who are cc:.tUin1 into the Episcopal Chu.rc:h are caninq in as a matter of conviction rather than because it is the Qmrch in the aamunity or saaet:birg. Q: or bec:ause their parents belo.ng? A: Yes, I think there is a real conviction, I think the O:mrch is providing a need of sane k.in:i. I don't know' what it is because I'Jll out of that. Q: well my personal case is because of the minister and his way of meetin;J and helping with prt'lblems. A: well there's a da.z:ger there of course. Q: Of loyalty to a person rather than • • • A: You really are an Episcopalian and it doesn•t make any difference Who is the minister. 'Ihi.s is the way it should be. Q: It should be, but that1s not true. A: No matter what kind of service, no matter what happens you're a member of the church. You go to church because you feel that need am it provides sauethi.n;J that you need ard everyt:hinq else is. Now' this is philoa::phical but this is true. I think that well, let1s consider the De'Kay's. '!hey are a CX'.IIIparatively :yDill'g c::ouple at:en't they a.rd they attract ya:Jl'g C'Ollples. 'Ihi.s ~tionat st. Paul's is grown immensely, it's made UJ? of families, :yDill'g couples ar.d children and a:rd the SUnday SChcol J.S just over • • • 'Blare are so many ya:Jl'g married couples in the oc:n;J.t'S9'atian. Q: We were very stron; with ycJI.1n!J active people ard they've all moveci away during this depl:essian. '!hey all lost jObs and they've had to move for financial reason. AJ.mcst everyone of them wre doing ••• A: we don't seem to lost any that way. Q: 'lhat's fortunate because we are really sufferin;J at this point. A: But I think that professional people ten:i to belorq to the Episcopal OUlrch or the Presbyterian dnu:ch., the better educated people. '!he Episcopal church is not an evargelical church it doesn't go out an:i evargilize. I think it should perhaps, but I dan't kna.f how it can because of it's history an:i background. Q: It's such a conservative plaoe. A: It's isn't the kin:i that go out. NCM there are spots. In a big city like arlcago, the church in Chicago does sane great work in the unieJ:privileged. areas of Chicago, but that's a big city an:i New York is the same way. But in Springfield you krlow • • • Q: we have this food. • • • A: But that's a group activity. Q: AM it's an interdenaninational thing too. A: '!hat's about the only interdenaninational thing they have in this city. Q: How about the street mission? A: Yes, well he's a remarkable person. Q: And he's supported ecumenically? A: Yes, an:i sane would be amazed at what goes on in Sprin;Jfield at night. Q: Nope, I worked with emotionally distul:tJed teenagers for three an:i a half years, had them in my bane ard I knc7tt quite a bit that goes on in Sprin;Jfield at night. It's still a fairly safe city. A: '!be Episcopal Qrurch in Sprin;Jfield, as a church, has never done a great deal with the blacks or, I guess the blacks are about the only poor people in Sprin;Jfield acbJally aren't they? '!here are not many poor white people are there? Q: Yes, they are very sectionalized, on the east side of tam you ten:i to think of it as totally black an:i it's al.nClSt half an:i half. Not particularly the Hay Hcmes, but you get in the lower prioe housing on the east side an:i there are a lot of poor. I went to Enos school fran 1946 tmtil. 1954 an::l it included a lot of~poor people the old ''Hollywood area". Not maybe destitute-wise, not lil the tenns we think of in the ghettos. A: But those people are not touched by the Episcopal Qrurch an:i never have been. '!his is not true in Chicago ani New York, cities like that. But oammmities the size of Springfield .•• I i I l 37 Q: Tend to be 100re professional people. A: More professional, conservative ani 100re disciplined. Q: Is that part of it, the discipline of their lives? A: I think so, I think that maybe one reason people want to belorg to the Episcopal Churches is because it has a discipline. It's not as strong as the Ranan catholic Church, for ~le, but it has a discipline ani people teni to want to be disc1plined. Q: A structure? A: Structure yes, I foun:i this very true. I was teaching' in high school. I taught American Histol:y. Q: '!hat's your profession? A: well Erglish is my major, I've been a teacher yes. I retired from a college job. Q: Where? A: OVer at I.akelani Junior COllege in Mattoon. But when I was teac.hi.ng in high school I discovered that by the errl of the year, we never got through to the present day history for some reason or rather. We kind of ended at W'orld War II, or before that, so I decided one year to experiment by going back chronologically ani I hit structure right away because we are chronologically structured, we start down here and we go up ani up ani up. (pause in tape to take a telephone call) Q: '!here was one other t:hirg I wanted to ask you about. In the catholic Church they idolize Mary. A: well not as much as they used too. Q: Ani I notice that is CXIlpletely a.rt of our service. Is it used in art:f of the services ntJil? A: Ch, yes. well, no, I guess not, nat officially, the ernmciatian of the Blessed Virgin is a Church • • • Q: Rite? A: 'Ihe Feast of the Emmciation. Q: But that's just a onetime sort of thfn1? A: Yes, every year. Q: But it's not like ••.• A: No. '!he virgin birth is a miracle ard the chul:d1 doesn't go much beyond that in definiu;J it. Q: :How are they on saints and th.in:Js, do they accept all of them from the catholic Qn.u:ch? saints. We have a few saints l:ut ltDSt of our saints ·'Walld also be A: Oh yes, they have a lag, lang list of Mints. Q: Are they the same as the catholic O:lurch? A: Well sare are ard sare are not, but they have their own groups of saints from • • • -we have specific Saint's days of course in the Prayer book but those would be Apostles, for example. we have sene Honor days where -we honor other rel.iqious people whO are not saints but just because of their religious cor:gril:utioos. But we believe in the cammmi.ty of saints. I guess all of us are saints. Q: 'lllat's What the H:::»r.nal1s teach anyway. A: In the RaDan catholic Crurch. of course they have to go through a process. Q: To be elevated to a sa.int:hood? A: It's a lonq, la:g process. Q: Do you feel that the Episcx:lpal Crurch. has had a true inpact on your life and the direction that it has taken? A: Well, no, I guess not, to be perfectly honest. I have no particular convictions about the Episcopal Qmrch. Q: 'Ihat's one of the things I like alxut. it that it doesn't e111,1;hasize a certain set of 'tyou 'lllllSt believe this or this and this." A: I am an Episcopalian because I was bom into the churCh an:i raisa:i in the dm:r:t:h ard have accepted the churCh wit:b.out any questions about it. I have no manta.1 p:r:cblems, or emXional. problems about the chul:dl. saae people do have. saae people become E!ll'Dtionallyinvolved., they become emotionally involved. with the minister of the c:truroh or they beoare wrappe::l up in the set.Vices of the c:truroh to a degree that that is a priority, that is their values. Q: Do you have the same feelirq I do that it's a sustain.in;;r force? A: Of oou:r:se it is. Q: '!hat's haw it works for me. If I don't :make my SUl'XJay church the week is just a little off. Not that I have, not that saneti:mes that I can follC1ii the ser:vice, it's just qo there am the :r:evival part of it, the rest. A: 'Well that's more than happens to me. Q: But you were raised in it also. A: Yes, there is a difference, it makes a difference. Q: I have been to a lot of churcbes. A: I think that we've covered pretty much the groun:i can you think of anythin:J else. Q: I think we've covered a lat. A: Is there anything that you'd like to ask me. I have a degree in theology you lmow'1 I'm a seminary graduate. Q: You said you were a seminarian and then you said you were a high school teacher and a oollege professor. Where did you do to school? A: My urdergraduate was done at what is now calloo Northern Iowa University. It was a teacner•s college but there are no more teacher's colleges you kna.tl. 'Ihey are all universities. Q: I knew Nonnal. had sort of • • • A: Yes1 but there's Eastern, Western, Southem and Northern ani they're all teacher's colleges but they don't call them that anymore. Q: 'lhey've exparxie:i their curricull.UU. A: So then I did my undergraduate work and then I did graduate work and got my master's degree at the University of Illinois. I have taught, not only as a teacher but as a principal, in the elementary ani sec.omary schools1 a teacher in high school and then in oollege. Q: Where did you teach high school? A: English and history. Q: Where? A: well I started out to teach in Ic:Ma because I graduatOO fran IatJa. 'Ihen I left the eiucational field for many years. For at least twenty-five years I did other t.hin;Js and then came back into it. I started Jir:f teachiig career again at Athens1 up here north of Springfield. '!hen I went to Johnsblu:qI which is in McHem:y County. I was principal of the elenentary school there and then fran there I went to a high school in McHem:y COUnty1 can't think the name of it l'10W'. '!hen I went as a principal of a junior high school in South Cbok county, South Trail and fran there I went to a small high school over here in the county that is a fin;Jer dcMn on the Illinois river, on the left side of the state. Q: Ch there is Calhoun. A: caJ.hcun COunty. I taught there, the Ki.ngdan of calhoun, and. then from there I went to south Village in COok county. Fran there I -went to Mattoon to teach in the JUnior COllege. In between times I managed a men•s clothing stoJ:e in Paris, Illinois. rnmt's IJrf legal residence incidentally because of nw papa's family. I'm the ally :remaining member of the family :tut that•s whel:e they cane, fran Springfield. I was active in DEm:x:J::at politics. In 1948, I was a.l..ni:Jst elected 5ecretal:y of state in Iowa on the Demxx::rat ticket. I got. over a million votes. Q: Wow, that would be excitinq. A: I was a clerk in three sessions of the Iowa House of Representatives. '!hen I was also in the mi.nistt:y for eight years. Q: Where did you do your theolcqical work? A: In Neshota House. Q: Where is that? A: Wisconsin, outside of Milwaukee. Q: When did you go there, after you went to college? A: at yes after, you have to have a college degree. It's a three year course beyon:i college. Q: And when did you practice as a minister? A: Fran 1940 to 1948 approximately. Q: Where were you a minister, in Icwa? A: No, I did saue but I was in the Diocese of Northern Irr:llana and. then I was in the Diocese of Chicago. 'lhen I lett Illinois to go to New YOJ:k City to be news editor of '"!he Witness" Which was a na.tional paper, a publication of the church. Q: You have had a lot of .int:eresti.rg careers. A: And I fCln'li that I was g'l:OWing farther away fran the vocational mi.nistt:y aspect plus I didn•t have a vocation in the beginninq beoause I entered the ministr:y rather late, I was about thirty. I asked to be deposed. Q: 'Ihat means qive up the • • • A: I •m, t.lell once a priest always a priest, once you are omained as a priest, it is i.rdelible, but I can•t function as a priest. Q: rnmt•s .int:eresti.rg, but you haven't left the church. A: No, then I went back to tea.chin:.J. I've had a very colorful career, I •ve had done ll'm'e 1:.hin;;Js actually than DJSt people and I •ve never been married. Q: Cil you've never married. Didn't have time for wanen? A: Well I den't kn.c:.'lw. I like 'WC.II.'B'1 and I dated in college l::ut just never seemed to, many of my frierxis tried to • • . Q: To match you up? A: Especially Daftl, they fin::i older wanen you know. Q: 'Ihere gets to be an abunc1ance of thai. A: 'Ihere are ll'm'e older wanen than there are older men. But I don't thi.nk at th.is junction Daftl, I'm 73 years old. Q: You1re just a year older than my father. A: Ani I just don't think that I 'WOUld be able to cha:rge. Q: Ib you firxi a :roanmate hard to live with? A: Well he's 36, so he's not a youth. No, we get alcn:J very well, he's an orderly fran one of the nursin;J haDes. He's not worki.rg n.t:N/1 :but he's gettirq back into it. But it gives me C01'l'Q;)al'lionship, it's corgenial. Q: I really do appreciate all your help. A: well I can't thi.nk of anythi.n;J else. Q: we've covered a wide range. A: About the church especially because I can't give you much detail about Olrist Cliurc:h beyoni what I have. Q: You have helped me so much :because like I said after only beirq in the church four years there is much I don't kn.c:.'lw and don't understani and ba.dkJ;;J.t'ound that I really needed to get to do a gocx1 job int:ezviewi.n;J people who have been in the c:h.u:rcb. and I really appreciate that. End of Side 'IWo, Tape 'IWo
Object Description
|Shutt, Philip L. - Interview and Memoir
Christ Episcopal Church, Springfield (Ill.)
Religious Life
Saint Paul's Cathedral (Episcopal), Springfield (Ill.)
|Shutt, historian for the Episcopal Diocese of Springfield, discusses the Diocese, St. Paul's Cathedral, church titles and roles, clergy, Christ Church, the prayer book and the diocesan structure.
|Shutt, Philip L. b. 1908
|Contributing Institution
|Oral History Collection, Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
|Armbruster, Sandra Britz [interviewer]
|text; sound
|Digital Format
|© Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois. For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this material, please contact: Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield, One University Plaza, MS BRK 140, Springfield IL 62703-5407. Phone: (217) 206-6520. http://library.uis.edu/archives/index.html
|Collection Name
|Oral History Collection of the University of Illinois at Springfield
|Philip L. Shutt Memoir
|Philip L. Shutt Memoir.pdf
|© Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois. For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this material, please contact: Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield, One University Plaza, MS BRK 140, Springfield IL 62703-5407. Phone: (217) 206-6520. http://library.uis.edu/archives/index.html
University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Archives/Special Collections
Philip L. Shutt Memoir
SH94. Shutt, Philip L. b. 1908 Interview and memoir 2 tapes, 180 mins., 44 pp.
Shutt, historian for the Episcopal Diocese of Springfield, discusses the Diocese, St. Paul's Cathedral, church titles and roles, clergy, Christ Church, the prayer book and the diocesan structure.
Interview by Sandra Britz Armbruster, 1981 OPEN See collateral file: interviewer's notes and an historical booklet on the Diocese of Springfield.
Archives/Special Collections LIB 144
University of Illinois at Springfield
One University Plaza, MS BRK 140
Springfield IL 62703-5407
© 1981, University of Illinois Board of Trustees
'!his manuscript is the pra:lu.ct of a series of tape-recorded. interviews con:luct:ai by sandra Britz Annbn1ster for the oral History Office, ~statetlniversity on J'uly 7, 1981. Margaret Reeder transcribed the tapes ani Kay Johansen edited the transcripts.
Fhllip Shutt is the historian for the Diocese of Sprin;;Jfield ard a member of st. Paul's cathedral. He is undoubtedly ems of the best infor.med members of the diocese ard gives a very factual account of
its history. He has written a book whic:h contains a brief sketch of
each chu:t:t:t1 in the diocese of Springfield as well as an accounti.n;;J of each bishop.
Mr. Shutt has lived a fascinati.n;;J life, bei.n;;J a teacher, salesman, J(Olitician and ~iest. His father was a priest and his family had an important part m the history of Springfield. He explains the st.ructures, titles ard rituals of the church as well as telling events that have shaped Olrist Church.
Readers of the oral history me!l¥)ir should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator end editor sought to preserve the infonnal, conversatiooal style that is inherent in such historical sources. Sangamon state University is not responsible for the factual ac:x::ura.cy of the me!l¥)ir, nor for views expressa:i therein; these are for the reader to judge.
'!he manuscript may :be read, quoted ard cited freely. It may not be
reproduced in whole or in part by aey means, electronic or mecilanical, without permission in writi.n;;J fran the oral History Office, Sangamonstate university, Springfield, Illinois 62794-9243.
Table of contents
Famlly and the Episcopalian Church • 1
Rev. Jerey Wallace • 2 Dissension at st. Pauls' 6 'Ihe origin of Cllrist Qrurch. 8 letter From Jerry Wallace to John Hauser • 9 SUccession of Clergy at Cllrist's Qrurch arr:i Membership Contributions. .10 Churchmanship. .14 Prayer Book Controversy0 .15 '!he Province 5 .17 Diocese of Illinois. .20 Church Members am Communicants. .21 Church Titles arr:i Roles. .23 Heal:in;J. .27 Episcopal Church ani Fblitics. .27 Rev0 Clanpett controversy0 .29 Climate of the Episcopal
|Collection Name
|Oral History Collection of the University of Illinois at Springfield


text:
DJs for Bailey at Alban Arena
29 Jun 2012
OLD skool classics with a full DJ line-up in aid of the Bailey Sarwa Appeal are being performed in Going Back To My Roots II at the Alban Arena next Saturday, July 7.
29 Jun 2012
OLD skool classics with a full DJ line-up in aid of the Bailey Sarwa Appeal are being performed in Going Back To My Roots II at the Alban Arena next Saturday, July 7.
27 Jun 2012
Funny man Dave Gorman may have been expecting a depleted crowd when his Powerpoint Presentation tour came to the Alban Arena.
27 Jun 2012
Follow/Like us now and be the first to know the inside information!
26 Jun 2012
CRITICALLY acclaimed Canadian comedian Tom Stade brings his current stand-up tour to St Albans this week.
25 Jun 2012
Spangled gowns, big hair and sparkly earrings, The Supremes were the ultimate female '60s supergroup, clocking up 12 number one hits with the likes of Where Did Our Love Go, Stop! In the Name of Love and You Keep Me Hangin' On.
23 Jun 2012
TALENTED Canadian emigre Tom Slade performs at the Alban Arena next week on an extended leg of his nationwide tour.
18 Jun 2012
Application form available here to download!
17 Jun 2012
WORLD-renowned Polar explorer, Sir Ranulph Fiennes, comes to the Alban Arena to talk about his expeditions to the Eiger and Everest on Monday evening.
14 Jun 2012
THEY may have been a bit nervous, but pupils from a secondary school in St Albans were pitch-perfect performing for the Queen at Hatfield House today, Thursday.
13 Jun 2012
THINK PowerPoint presentations are boring? Think again!
Comedian Dave Gorman's PowerPoint Presentation arrives in St Albans on Sunday, June 24.
12 Jun 2012
The Alban Arena's brand new sparkling website is now up and running!
8 Jun 2012
FILM dominates the programme at the Alban Arena for the next couple of weeks with movies for adults and children.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Conflict between generations is a common them to many novels. In the novel"Bread Givers", by Anzia Yezierksa, the clashing of wills of two generations is one major theme. We see clashes through culture, generations, community, religion,generations, and many others. The most prominent clash of wills is that of the protagonist Sara with her father Moisha or Reb Smolinsky. Some may say that these two characters clash because of their differences. Others might say that it their similarities that cause the clash between them both. It seems that it is a combination of their similarities and their differences that cause their clash and, in fact, binds them closer than
any of the other characters.
At the beginning of the novel we learn that Sara's father has nick named her blood and iron recognizing the fact that she has a strong will. It is Sara's strong will that causes the most of the conflict with her and her father. Sara gets her strong will and drive from her father. She is not like her sisters who follow the cultural expectations of early marriage, but she, instead, has greater ambition for her life. Sara plans to get an education which is not in her fathers plan for her life. Reb wants Sara to marry like her
other sisters, and live a "holy" life according to the Torah. Sara's will to educate herself, and Reb's will to have Sara married is what causes the conflict in their relationship. Like Sara's blood and iron will, Reb also is driven for his daughters to live their life according to the Torah.
It is the strong will of these two characters that cause their connection. While Reb is bound to the laws and traditions of the Torah, Sara is bound to the drive to be educated or make herself a better, more successful person. One incident that exemplifies the strong will of both these characters is found at the beginning of the novel. The rent collector for the landlord comes to the apartment to collect rent, but Reb does not have the money. The two argue and Reb finally hits the collector, who is Jewish, and
shouts, "I'll teach you respect for the Holy Torah" (p. 18). Reb is then taken off to jail for assault. Then Sara decides since none of her sisters are bringing in enough money, that she would go out and make some. She buys a some fish for twenty five cents and then hit the street to sell them for double what she paid. We see by this that Reb has an iron will when in comes to his religion and the Torah, while Sara has a will to make herself a better and successful person. He strives for religious perfection while Sara strives
for personal perfection.
Sara follows the orders of her father until she reaches her breaking point in the unsuccessful business he buys. Sara walks out on her mother and father, leaving behind all connections to her old life. This is her chance to start out in the world to attain her goal. This is a difficult thing for a girl to do in that time and place. She would face many bumps on her road, the greatest being resisting the old world that her family is bound to. While her sisters question her actions, they praise her for getting away from their father. Her sister Bessies says, "Thank God you had the courage to break away" (p 142). Bessie is praising her for not letting her father marry her off as he did her and his other two daughters.
A long time after leaving the home Reb goes to visit Sara in her small apartment. The sight of her father is something she had longed for so she was happy to see him. She thought he would understand her because, as she says, "He had given up worldly success to drink the wisdom of the Torah" (p. 202). When in fact he came to chastise her for not
accepting a marriage proposal. He feels this is her only chance to live a holy life and get into heaven. After her continued refusal and argument with her father Reb...
Cited: 1. Yezierska, Anzia. Bread Givers. Doubleday: New York, 1975.
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