text:
Our New Logo
141 comments:
- AnonymousAugust 20, 2008 at 11:03 PM
I prefer the old logo with the tree, not a logo that emphasizes the mogen dovid.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 20, 2008 at 11:06 PM
The old logo is better. Its not about the Holocaust but about families.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 20, 2008 at 11:30 PM
sorry, it looks more like a propeller than a jewish star.ReplyDelete
This comment has been removed by the author.ReplyDelete
- Erika HerzogAugust 21, 2008 at 12:08 AM
i don't mind the logo. i love the tree but it has had its life and i think it's okay to move forward. i am shocked that people are more focused on something cosmetic like the logo than on the new licensing agreement and the details and impact it will have on the future of jewishgen.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 21, 2008 at 1:53 AM
I think the new logo is too abstract. It says nothing about genealogy and is barely recognizable as a Magen David. The tree logo conveyed warmth and genealogy, plus it was colorful and attractive to the eye. Just my two kopecks...ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 21, 2008 at 2:50 PM
The logo looks like a bogus Jewish star. Was the designer's intent to "bury" the fact that this is a Jewish site? It certaining looks that way! If Museum's wants JewishGen to disappear, this is the way to go. I vote against.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 21, 2008 at 2:51 PM
It is simply not recognizable as a Star of David. Conveys nothing about family history or genealogy! Simply dreadful!!ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 21, 2008 at 3:03 PM
Where is the place on this site that allows me to vote? I see voters can change their votes or provide a comment but no place to add a new vote.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 21, 2008 at 6:41 PM
A camel is a horse designed by a committee.ReplyDelete
I think the new logo was designed in the same spirit. Instead of trying to design something memorable, it appears that the effort was to get as much symbolism incorporated as possible.
This design is a failure.
- AnonymousAugust 22, 2008 at 2:48 AM
I do not think that the money used for this new logo design was well spent. I have been donating religiously to JewishGen now for 16 years. It's not a lot in the grand scheme of things, but $500/yr + is a lot more than most people. I will have to reevaluate my committment to JewishGen based on the responses I have heard from management regarding this new logo. I heard: Here's the new logo. We discussed it with "stakeholders" . If you want to voice your opinion, go to the blog and vote. But we are not going to change it. Sorry, I'm voting with my money.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 22, 2008 at 10:40 AM
Folks should note the similarity to Ancestry's logo, and also Rootsweb's logo (Rootsweb was "amalgamated" with Ancestry a while ago). Same leaf shape, same mid-line in the leaf, same color. This begs questions about the full intent of the announced JewishGen-Ancestry.com partnership. I much prefer the original colorful tree design.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 22, 2008 at 2:20 PM
I never thought the Magen David had been designed to memorialize the 6 million killed during the Holocaust.ReplyDelete
Frankly, I think whoever wrote this interpretation is exploiting the Holocaust, which I find truly reprehensible.
A child of the Holocaust
- AnonymousAugust 22, 2008 at 7:46 PM
JewishGen new leadership is now taking pains to reassure its members that notwithstanding the agreement with Ancestry.com, JewishGen will retain its identity.ReplyDelete
At the same time they are changing the logo?
- AnonymousAugust 22, 2008 at 8:11 PM
I tried to vote and the web site did not let me. I think the new logo is a step backward--stay with the old.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 22, 2008 at 9:23 PM
If that is supposed to be a Magen David, then it was designed by someone who does not want to be identified as Jewish. The logo should more clearly be Jewish.ReplyDelete
As a very active Jewishgen volunteer, I too, am suspicious of Jewishgen's agreement with Ancestry. Why align with a commercial site only available to those who pay large fees? It makes me suspect that, eventually, Jewishgen will exploit the work of all of its volunteers and go commercial.
- AnonymousAugust 22, 2008 at 10:12 PM
Like many other conference attendees, I feel that the new logo resembles a ceiling fan more than it does a magen david and that its reference to Jewish genealogy is at best highly abstract.ReplyDelete
We were told at Wednesday evening's JewishGen session that WE -- JewishGen's volunteers, donors, and participants -- "are JewishGen." Not long after, comments from the audience about OUR symbol were rudely dismissed by the head of the Museum of Jewish Heritage. Not a great fund-raising strategy, Dr. Marwell.
I hate to think how much JewishGen (or Ancestry?) paid a commercial artist or public relations firm for this design. I find it cold, unattractive, and meaningless. Please reconsider.
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 1:25 AM
I am VERY unhappy about the new logo. It's like so many logos that get "updated" for the sake of being new. They lose character, history, and integrity. What on earth was wrong with the old one?ReplyDelete
I don't see a Magen David - I see a lotus flower. It looks very like the logo of a yoga site I frequent. Yoga?? Frankly, this logo is an embarrassment.
This is a Jewish GENEALOGY site. That tree said it all.
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 1:26 AM
JewishGen is about genealogy - families - and our origins. The logo does not emit any of those sentiments. It would be nice to find out who were on the committee that designed this that no longer represents this family of Jewish Genealogy. I hope this is not cast in stone because if it is count me out of any support.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 3:23 AM
Changing the logo while taking pains to convince the JewishGen membership that the organization retains its identity after the agreement with Ancestry.com? Nuts!ReplyDelete
- Lancy SpalterAugust 23, 2008 at 4:26 AM
A logo is a facade. What's important is what stands behind it. And yet...ReplyDelete
For many of us, the old logo "feels" like home. JG is the place we visit late at night after work, the place that has housed and aroused deep emotions. In comparison, the new logo looks cold and commercial. Sort of like finding a store where your childhood home used to stand...
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 7:49 AM
It's a move backwards (or an attempt to blend in with Ancestry.com). Either way, it is too obtuse in its symbolism. The old one was better.ReplyDelete
Is it another example of Jewishgen's arbitrary management style that essentially all the comments I read here are negative, the voting on it is negative, - but JewishGen reports "I am happy to report that the reviews have been mostly positive, exciting and upbeat". JewishGen is again listening to itself instead of its membership.
Not happy about the Ancestry deal either or the way it was negotiated.
- member since 1998August 23, 2008 at 7:50 AM
I was fond of the old logo, and I find it hard to see any of the symbolism (WHERE, exactly, is the Mogen David) in the new.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 8:22 AM
The new logo looks like it was chosen and designed by the folks at Ancestry. It strongly supports their color and design schemes with some small attempt at adding the thoughts and spirit of Jewishgen.ReplyDelete
I think Jewishgen is being pressured by its new "Big Brother", and that bodes very poorly for any future collaberation efforts.
I vote a very strong NO! We must demonstrate that Jewishgen will keep its independence!
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 8:33 AM
What was wrong with the original logo? The image clearly represented families, genealogy. The new one doesn't have any meaning in its representation.ReplyDelete
- maury kitcesAugust 23, 2008 at 9:09 AM
I have been a member and supporter of Jewishgen since the first days of dial-up to Susan's BBS. I think the thinly veiled symbolism of the logo does not represent the goals and mission of Jewishgen. Most of the ancestors that Jewishgen subscribers are searching for lived many generations before the Holocaust. Having the logo focus on the holocaust and the six-million is appropriate for Yad-Vashem, but not for Jewishgen. It is a misrepresentation of who we are and what we do.ReplyDelete
I suspect that since Jewishgen is always short of funds, the efforts for the design of this logo was initiated by Ancestry, and represents their understanding of our mission.
They got it wrong.
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 10:29 AM
I don't like the new logo, as many of others have said I believe the star is barely noticable and it does look more like a propeller than the mogin dovid. This was a very poor use of donated money rather than what we all want is access to more new documents and data to further the research of our JEWISH families. BRING BACK THE OLD LOGO!!!!ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 11:16 AM
I prefer the original logo.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 12:25 PM
I looked at this logo and it reminded me of my brother's boy scout badge - from pre-1945.ReplyDelete
I googled "scout logo" and hey presto - up comes a very similar logo - perhaps we are planning a secret merger with the "Boy Scouts Association" next? Remember you read it *here* first!
BTW - as we have so many active, caring and concerned members, it would have been nice/courteous/democratic to give us advance warning of these possible changes - which are now de-facto. Or perhaps - we, the plebs and backbone of Jewishgen do not count?
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 2:54 PM
In spite of the six points on it, the the logo does not look Jewish. Neither does it have anything resembling a tree, roots or family. A logo should not require an explanation.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 3:00 PM
I have always liked the tree logo. As others have said, the new logo is too abstract, doesn't convey anything about family (trees) or Jewish genealogy. The leaves don't look like leaves and the Magen David is sideways. If you want to update away from the purple background, that's okay. Perhaps make it a nice, rich blue background. Just don't uproot our tree!!!ReplyDelete
While I'm at it, please give the web pages a printer friendly option.
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 3:05 PM
I am afraid that the new attempt to change the JewishGen "branding" has ignored the original genealogy intent. The result is a non-distinctive magen david which while Jewish does not truly offer the viewer a positive brand recognition for JewishGen. The symbolism intended is not really apparent and that means that the brand will not be remembered.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 3:21 PM
The suggested logo is so esoteric that it will be meaningless to most people without an accompanying interpretation. The leaves are barely recognizable as leaves and the association to a family tree is far-fetched. The Magen David is recognizable world wide, even by our detractors but the six "leaves" of the logo are not a Magen David. I also agree that the coincidence of the number six in the number of "leaves" in the logo and the number of points in a Magen David and the number of millions of Jews killed in the Holocaust is pushing a point too far.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 3:58 PM
I think you need a pretty good imagination to "see" the description in the new logo. I do not see its connection to genealogy. I feel the present logo (tree) was fine - why fix it if it ain't broke?ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 4:27 PM
The new design is interesting. The colors are nice- maybe a bit more Blue and sharper lines.ReplyDelete
Its a brave new world and we must move with the times. People who put price tags on things are wrong.
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 4:28 PM
New logo is lousy. LOOKS like a design by a 1940's "Artistic director's" interpretation of 'something a customer WANTS to be able to recognize." THE logo of the TREE, could be used. AMALGAMATED it looks like I am 'trying but can't quite make it. WHere is the 'leaf?' The star" I see a circle in the center of the supposedly 6 leaves/ IF the is is the determined logo, why not USE LEAVES of trees that are around the world...ReplyDelete
Some from each Continent? Have the
stems form the roots and spread them out in a fan shape. Ie- Maple leaves and Oak Trees to represent uSA and Canada, U.K. Palm/fronds, date trees, from the Middle East
Eucalyptus from Australia? USE ideas this looks 'expensive' logo
DOES NOT DO THE TRICK to brting greater recognition of Jewish Gen.
E.G. Feitler in Central NY State
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 6:07 PM
Start again from square one....this entry is...I'm trying to be polite here.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 6:47 PM
The new design is too abstract, the previous tree design got at the heart of genealogy, which should be the purpose. Neither the Holocaust nor the wealth of volunteers address themes that get at the heart of genealogy, which is to learn about your family, and its family branches. Since a good many of our ancestors went from country to country in steamships--- should a steamship be displayed in a logo design?ReplyDelete
- Ann HarrisAugust 23, 2008 at 9:12 PM
A logo is by its own nature an "icon"; if you have to explain it, it hasn't been effective. And if you explain it and it still doesn't make sense, it is NOT a successful design. Change is hard and the previous logo was evocative for the many, many users of Jewish-gen. This logo does not resonate in the same emotional way as did its predecessor. To me, it does not even "look Jewish." The impression I got from the new look was that it was a pleasant design that was specifically designed to eliminate the ethnic content. But I must say it is NOT the logo that really matters as much as the profound impact that the organization has wrought on the Jewish community looking for its roots. I applaud the new agreement and the enhancements that it what it will bring to working Jewish genealogists.ReplyDelete
Ann Harris, JGSLA (Ancestry subscriber)
- AnonymousAugust 23, 2008 at 11:36 PM
I'm with the majority of comments, bring back back the tree!ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 12:06 AM
Is this the first step to allowing Ancestry.com to charge for the records that hundreds of thousands of volunteers donated their time for? Not to mention the millions of dollars that were donated to produce these records. Shame on you, JewishGen. Forget the horrible logo.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 2:30 AM
This logo is a disaster. It could be on a cereal box.It says nothing and represents nothing. The explanation of the logo at the begining of this blog reminds me of a Rorschach test; one can see in it whatever one likes.That is not the purpose of of a logo.A logo should send a distinct message which this one does not. Bring back the tree.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 3:08 AM
Bring back the old tree logo or use a clearer Magen David. The new logo is not really immediately recognizable as Jewish. It also does not convey the idea of genealogy. It seems like a lame attempt to use the Ancestry leaf motif.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 4:37 AM
Is it a coincidence that the announcement of JewishGen's new logo and its collaboration with Ancestry.com follows so closely on the heels of Susan King's retirement?ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 6:10 AM
If you take a star and let it weather/erode - the points will wear down. Luckily this has not happened to *the* Star of David after aeons.ReplyDelete
Wear and tear will also happens if you pop it into water too much, ie after multiple baptisms.
Surely this is what has happened to this logo "Star of David" after a very short sojourn in Salt Lake City?
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 9:03 AM
Why did Ancestry do this to us? Why did we let them?ReplyDelete
Our existing logo could have easily been accommodated into the Ancestry framework. Check out Ancestry of Japan for an example. http://www.jiapu.cn/. Their logo is a tree. Jewishgen could do the same thing with a different tree -- like the one we have now.
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 12:46 PM
This is horrible. I tried to vote, but the system wouldn't let me. Anything that requires such contorted explanations to say what the thing is, and even after all that is unclear, really should be junked.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 1:06 PM
I was never a fan of the old logo or "sea of purple" idea. Looked like Halloween to me rather than something Jewish and professional!ReplyDelete
And I like the new JewishGen lettering/coloring a lot, but I don't think the star icon matchs the professionalism of the lettering. I'm sorry JewishGen paid money for something that doesn't hold a candle to the Museum or Ancestry's very elegant logos. JewishGen deserves a sleek logo!
My first impresion was that it looks like an alien flower on Star Trek that spit sleeping gas at Captain Kirk's friends. Then someone mentioned virtually the same thing at the conference! ... so it I like the idea of a new logo, but think this one is awkward. I'm glad that it will be shrunken down to pinpoint size when I have to use it as a button to click for town information... then maybe it won't be so bad, because we won't be able to see it so clearly!
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 2:12 PM
It looks like a logo for a Washington, DC cherry blossom festival but with really ugly colors. The tree was bright and perky and attractive to the eye. I was proud of it representing who we are. This logo is an embarassment! Too bad no one will take the voting and comments serious enough to recognize that the majority don't want the new logo and will it change back (sigh...).ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 2:31 PM
I just realized that what we have here is the propeller on the Titanic. As I recall, it was the last thing those who survived saw. Actually, if you attach the Ancestry logo below it, you have a potted plant.ReplyDelete
I was very disturbed at Dr. Marwell's defensive comments at the conference. It appears to me that this was an attempt to disconnect JewishGen from its original roots and put the stamp of the Museum on it, dismissing those who had the original vision. There is nothing in the new logo or the new look that connects us to the previous 20 years of JewishGen. I hope this decision will be reconsidered in light of the overwhelming vote and comments in this moderated blog against it.
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 5:05 PM
The new logo sucks! Very bad choice.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 6:09 PM
I note one comment "I do not think that the money used for this new logo design was well spent."ReplyDelete
Did somebody actually pay for this? It says nothing, it does nothing, and it leaves me longing for the tree that made sense.
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 8:48 PM
Ancestry seems to think Jewish history ENTIRELY consists of the Holocuast. The written statement about the "new" symbolism to the logo sounds very much like Ancestry.com-speak.ReplyDelete
I DO NOT believe JG had a say in this matter. No matter how much PR chazeri JG talks/writes, this is coming from Ancestry.
Once again, Ancestry has found another bit of the genealogy world to gobble up, like Pac-Man. It can NOT be good for Jewish genealogy.
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 8:49 PM
Could you publicize the voting opportunity so more people could see the logo and react to it? Many conference goers aren't home yet and still others don't have computers but might find one to access this site. Several from our JGS had no idea about the change. If you really want a widespread and honest poll then publicize it and leave it up longer.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 8:52 PM
JewishGen Administrator says in the first paragraph:ReplyDelete
"...I am happy to report that the reviews have been mostly positive, exciting and upbeat."
Can I have some of the drugs you are on? I KNOW I won't be able to find your family because you are coming from a different planet than the rest of us!
NO-ONE LIKES IT except for JewishGen staff AND Ancestry mormons, errrr... staff.
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 8:54 PM
So far the vote is 60-40% AGAINST the new logo. If that's not clear enough for you regarding the reaction to the logo, I don't know what is.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 9:39 PM
The new logo design is very unattractive, lacking gracefulness and dignity. In addition,it does not convey any meaningful Jewish and/or genealogical symbol or message that can be readily understood.The original one was fine.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 10:06 PM
The new logo with its muted colors is soul-less and static, not signifying renewal. The tremendous loss of the holocaust may have sparked some people's interest in genealogy but it does not define us all. Genealogy is for the living and the tree is a far better and more meaningful logo than the new @#$%^ design.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 11:08 PM
I have never been able to find my great grandmother on any ship records and my theory for years has been that she came by space ship from Russia to the US. I am happy that others like me have seen the Star Trek connection. I would like to see the logo on a pin and then I can use it as a communicator badge. (I can easily see Captain Pickard wearing it). Perhaps with the badge, I will finally be able to find out what space ship she arrived on...ReplyDelete
Beam me up...
- AnonymousAugust 24, 2008 at 11:15 PM
I agree with the negative comments, & really wonder if anyone in charge is reading them - if any commercial project got similar reviews there would be people looking for new jobs. The design element that really bothers me is the empty space in the middle, symbolizing?ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 1:26 AM
I was not a great fan of the tree, and having a new logo to recognize new directions we are going in is really a fine idea.ReplyDelete
But I have to agree with most of the comments here. The logo itself is not clearly symbolic of any of the things it is supposed to symbolize; Holocaust issues are one of our interests, but are not the driving force behind Jewish genealogy; the type font is weak; and the colours are insipid.
(with apologies to whoever designed it)
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 2:52 AM
Is the responsible for this disastrous decision reading all these comments above? Not a single message of approval.ReplyDelete
Nothing like "I am happy to report that the reviews have been mostly positive, exciting and upbeat".
Jewishgen management should reconsider its decision.
I am not happy with the logo:ReplyDelete
- that shape isn't associated with Magen David in my mind.
- the link of this image to genealogy is very weak.
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 9:35 AM
Its an Insult to the Jewish Star.ReplyDelete
It looks like a toy I had as a child.
Is this logo forced on you by Ancestory
Evelyn Filippi
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 9:58 AM
I don't understand why this has become such a major controversy. JewishGen has been providing a tremendous service to the Jewish community for years. If they feel that a new logo will help with their fundraising efforts, why is that a problem? We should be much more concerned about the new Ancestry deal than the new logo.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 10:16 AM
As an Israeli, the new logo looks to me like a military button. Nothing reminds me of genealogy. I have nothing against the colors, and understand the need for renewal, but this logo just doesn't do it.ReplyDelete
Thanks for the opportunity to comment.
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 10:35 AM
The new logo is chusseri. The tree is a living symbol and emotes strong feelings. The new logo is bland and devoid of life, please don't accept it. The Jewish family tree is more than 5000 years old, let's not change it now!ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 10:43 AM
Alice was sitting by the rabbit hole - above shone a strange-looking star - she hummed "Twinkle twinkle little star, how I wonder what you are?"ReplyDelete
Out of the corner of her eye she could just see the Red Queen holding a placard saying "Data Acquisition". Suddenly the Queen bent forward and grasped the small white rabbit - but he managed to escape. In his right hand he held a scroll labelled "Family Tree and Burrow News" - 30 years of dedicated Bunnikinski family work". He panted "Oh my ears and whiskers, Oh my ears and whiskers - she nearly got me, she nearly got me."
Alice saw him rush down the rabbit hole - was this a bad dream or was it really happening?
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 10:48 AM
This logo does NOT look anything like a Jewish star. It reminds me of hamentashen, or of a propeller as other people have said. Furthermore, I find the green a disgusting shade which does not complement the blue. As a child of Holocaust survivors, I agree that the Holocaust is a large part of my life. However, when I am doing genealogy, I am trying to go beyond the Holocaust to find my family roots and the branches of my family tree. This is the essence of Jewish genealogy and should be represented by some form of tree integrated with a magen david. The previous logo is a much more meaningful representation of what Jewish genealogy stands for.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 11:13 AM
I read this in the introduction:ReplyDelete
"Specifically, I have also been able to hear people's reactions to the new JewishGen logo, and I am happy to report that the reviews have been mostly positive, exciting and upbeat."
People often say things to be polite and to avoid unpleasant controversy in a public situation. Has this not occurred to the writer? And now we asked to vote *after* the event - how odd and cynical. Are you trying to fool us?
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Dump the new logo; it's a failure. Others have said it better, but it fails to reflect when first seen—which should be the criterion—or even after careful review after having been told what it is supposed to represent, any of the underlying attributes of JewishGen. A logo isn't supposed to be a puzzle, but that's what's been achieved. Go back to the tree until you can come up with something that blatantly says Jewish Genealogy at the grade-school level.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 12:10 PM
The tree was a beautiful logo which seemed to represent the interest in family history going back over many generations. I wonder if the new logo is a sign that the orientation of the organization is changing with its new alliances, both the museum in New York and Ancestry. I loved the old logo and am very disappointed in the new one.ReplyDelete
- E. KlapholtzAugust 25, 2008 at 12:31 PM
When I first saw the new logo, I couldn't understand what it meant. I still don't.ReplyDelete
The original logo, the tree, is self explanatory. It says it all. Bring it back.
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 12:40 PM
This is a terrible, dull design and as many have noted - jewishgen is not just Holocaust. The new logo is completely meaningless when one glances at it and the story behind it... more like a flower design that someone liked and then created a story around. We are about tradition and serious study, not glitz.ReplyDelete
And why did I have to find out about this from Gary Mokotoff's newsletter, not from JGen? As a long time donor and supporter, I find that offensive.
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Here is the scorecard. As of 8/25 Noon, there have been 67 comments; 3- For,64- Against the new logo. That's 95.5% negative and 4.5% positive opinion regarding the new logo.ReplyDelete
The Jewish Gen Blog has a different count. They tell us that out of 368 votes,46(11%) say the new logo is "Great", 76(20%) say "OK", and 264(68%) say it is "Horrible". Question - Who were the 368 voter?. Does that count include the people who came up with this design?. I think the count based on "Comments" is more accurate and reflects the opinion of our members.
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 12:58 PM
If JewishGen is not changing as an organization, in response to its affiliation with Ancestry.com, then why change the logo? JG needs to maintain its identity and a logo IS it's identity. That is the primary purpose of a logo. If JewishGen, as an organization IS changing due to this affiliation, then we have more to worry about than the logo.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 1:04 PM
I prefer the old one, the new one needs a lot of explanations besides, it's not the purposeReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Great Logo. Brings JewGen into the 21st Century. What's wrong with that? JewGen changing and progressing for the better.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 2:04 PM
It's awful, pure and simple!ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 2:07 PM
To me it looks like a propeller!. The old logo might have needed some updating, but this one is off-the-wall.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 2:33 PM
The logo is fantastic. While we research the past, we move into the future. The logo represents progress and the great new future of JewishGen!ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 4:28 PM
I agree with all the negative comments, and so did the people I spoke with at the Conference. I don't know where JewishGen received so many positive comments. I don't believe it. This logo is too abstract and doesn't represent anything Jewish. I tried to see a Jewish star, but I couldn't. If you have to try to figure out what the logo says, it's not working. At least the tree was immediately recognizable as relating to genealogy. Isn't that what we're about? CHANGE THE LOGO!ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 4:31 PM
Why can't my vote be processed? Is that because the majority think the logo is horrible, as I do? If you want us to vote, you have to accept the opinions.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 4:35 PM
I had to choose, Ancestry reply or logo reply. I got my answer from Gary M in the email newsletter today...don't ask, don't ask...Who should be asking if they are mormons before jumping into partnership with them? How ignorant after all the bluster about the baptisms. The Logo is just the tip of the iceberg. I appreciate JG's volunteers and my heart bleeds for what the JG bosses have done to descecrate this organization.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 4:36 PM
The two postings at 1:39PM and 2:33PM on 8/25 appear to be a blatant attempt by JewGen to stuff the ballot box to improve the positive count after reading the statistics. Won't work.The logo is still no good.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 5:26 PM
It looks like a military badge -- cold and abstract. Why not update the tree logo with six-pointed stars?ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 5:28 PM
Poor image - it is flat, not dynamic, no growth, no relationship to genealogy - looks commercial - three petals and leaves of a trillium plant or poison ivy? You erred...Coke knew when they made a mistake and went back to Coke Classic - it's not too late to admit a mistake!ReplyDelete
I am very concerned about what this symbolism means - what else are we losing if we are losing our identity? our name? Will we soon have to pay to log on to Jewish Gen? What about JOWBR with the data our volunteers collected? It belongs to us! What other changes are coming down that we are unaware of as of yet?
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 6:25 PM
An orthodox friend, and very active Jewish genner, had trouble immediately he logged onto the blog. His computer went haywire and he could not vote. However he feels so strongly about this - he wished to write this:ReplyDelete
My vote is no to Xmas ornaments or to any gaudy thing that looks like a pinwheel without the stick. The shape of a Mogan David is holy and that way for a reason. Calling this a Mogan David violates the third commandment regarding swearing or taking oaths vainly, or falsely.
This is interpreted by the sages as useless oaths. The most common examples are that wood is wood, which is a vain oath, or wood is gold, which is a false oath. For a Jewish Organization to claim that object is a Mogan David, which it is not, would be a false oath.
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 6:35 PM
I am open to a new logo, but this one clearly doesn't work. It says nothing meaningful about a really amazing organization. I am puzzled by the process of voting after this has been announced. Wouldn't it have made more sense to arrive at several designs and then ask for a vote? Given the fact that 68% of those responding to the blog are clearly unimpressed, I think you need to reassess. Asking for reactions if you are unwilling to respond to an pretty uniform response seems highly disingenuous.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 7:05 PM
i think it is amazing!! i love it wonderful good jobReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 7:11 PM
its amazing i really really really like it alot i dont now why people dont like it....ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 7:14 PM
nice work you can totally see the jewish star right away i disagree with all the other people who said negative thingsReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 7:15 PM
i like how it reperesents the 6 million jews who died very heart warmingReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 7:23 PM
I'm voting with the only thing I can do. Specifically...ReplyDelete
1) I am removing my names from the Family Tree. I haven't gotten any "hits" in the last 7 years, so it's not a big deal. This way, Ancestry can not, under any circumstances, get my personal info into their clutches.
2) No more money or volunteer efforts for JG. If they can NOT listen to the majority of their users (ie logo), then I don't feel like I am getting any "value" for my money.
The new "management" needs to take an effective listening or Dale Carnegie course to learn how to listen and how to get people to like them. I certainly don't get the same feeling now like I've had in the past. They certainly weren't listening to us during the conference.
I hate the new logo! From a distance at the IAJGS meeting, it looks more like a military insignia than anything relating to Jewish genealogy. It looks like a generic, corporate logo, not something that reflects the heart of what dedicated Jewishgen volunteers, like me, have done to create genealogy databases to benefit the Jewishgen family. The attitude expressed at the meeting, that the logo stays no matter who dislikes it, reflects a dictatorship mentality. I had thought better of Jewishgen...ReplyDelete
Jane Rollins, La Crescenta, CA
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 8:30 PM
Is anyone reading these messages or are you all hiding somewhere with your heads in the sand?
That's the only reason I can figure out why there's no comments on an overwhelming 70% negative response.
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 8:53 PM
If JG is SO insistent on NOT listening to its "stakeholders" -- THE USERS -- then my money will no longer going towards JG.ReplyDelete
If they can't see the mistakes they have made recently AND also by not listening to us, then (sorry to say) they deserve what will happen to the organization.
#1 mistake with non-profit organizations is to ignore their volunteers and members.
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 9:03 PM
I think the logo is terrible.ReplyDelete
I also think that it is terrible that we have to waste our energy and time in discussing a new logo when the old one was fine.
Please bring back the old logo and stop this foolishness.
Anonymous (only because I don't want to waste my time arguing with someone who (incredibly!) might like the new logo)
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 9:06 PM
As many others, I also associate the new logo with Startrek, the military, and the boy scouts. Nothing about it renders a Jewish theme.I do not see the leaves or the Jewish star. It also reminds me of those pinwheels we used to blow in the wind.ReplyDelete
At the conference meeting where this new logo was introduced, the feeling was that it doesn't really matter what we, the JewishGen members, think about it. It was presented as being a done deal, like it or not.
The administrators have an opportunity now to show us that we are being listened to. I hope that, after hearing our reactions at the conference and reading our responses here, you will reconsider and decide to continue working on a logo until one is created that appeals to the majority. This would go a long way in building a positive relationship of trust and respect.
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 9:08 PM
I think the new logo is terrible. Why did the old one have to be replaced? Bring back the old one.ReplyDelete
Anonymous (only because I do not want to waste my time arguing with some one who (incredibly!) likes the new one.
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 9:10 PM
I think the new logo is terrible. Why did the old one have to be replaced? Bring back the old one.ReplyDelete
Anonymous (only because I do not want to waste my time arguing with some one who (incredibly!) likes the new one
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 9:15 PM
The old logo needed no explanation. The new one looks like a propeller and it would take a PH.D to figure out all the meanings. Don't mess with a good thing.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 9:21 PM
The new logo doesn't seem to resonate with people, and I have to agree. One can stretch the explanation of the symbolism one might be able to see in the new logo, but without the narration it is a stretch. What was the purpose of designing a new logo? What were the objectives? Maybe I missed it but I don't see that explanation anywhere. I can understand a progression of the tree design but not a break to something completely different and therefore without meaning to the community that JewishGen is comprised of.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 9:28 PM
The design is terrible -- only thing I could figure by looking at it was that it was supposed to be some contemporary rendering of a Mogen Dovid because of the 6 points. Unfortunately, it misses by a million miles. The color scheme is, frankly, ugly. Over-all, it is a bland and unexciting visual. While the original JewishGen logo wasn't that great, either, it was head and shoulders above this one. Ugh!ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 10:00 PM
The tree symbolized the purpose of the site. The propellers are pretty but tell one nothing of the site.ReplyDelete
It's too late to change; I know lots of money, time and market research went into the new logo. But why not just have the Ancestry Green Leaf and be done with it?
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 10:06 PM
I also agree with the negative comments about the new logo. I vote to go back to the old logo ASAP. What a waste of precious resources to develop the new awful new log!ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 25, 2008 at 11:02 PM
Until I read the description of the new logo, I could not notice the Magen David or other symbolism at all. I agree with previous postings that our hobby is not just about the Holocaust but about family trees and roots. I do not see a problem with a new logo, but this is a very poor design. Why not somehow update the old one? Modernize the old one instead of throwing it out for this new and obscure one. At this posting, the vote is 69% "It's Horrible". Please recognize your mistake!ReplyDelete
- Diane BergAugust 26, 2008 at 12:35 AM
This whole exercize of voting and commenting appears to be a cruel hoax. It gives the illusion that what the majority of commentors say matters when clearly no one cares. Has anything been said by Ancestry leadership? Where is David Marwell's reaction? Ben Zoma said, "Who is wise? One who learns from everyone." 'Nuff said!ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 1:17 AM
Even though most of us are Jewish and it is a Jewish site, this logo does not represent the purpose of JewishGen, which is GENEALOGY and building our family TREES. I am a transcriber, a donor of Holocaust material and contribute to JewishGen-erosity every year. I can undestand if JewishGen wants to "modernize" the logo, but keep the tree, branches and leaves!ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 1:43 AM
The reason that JewishGen's databases and websites have grown steadily and continuously over the past years is because we volunteers and contributors feel strongly that this is "our community."ReplyDelete
This is the point that was made at the JewishGen presentation at the conference when it was ssid that "you are JewishGen".
Comments and concerns about the logo are indeed about the logo, but they also reflect a far deeper concern that because of its arrangements with Ancestry.com, JewishGen will no longer be "our community."
JewishGen management has a unique opportunity to listen to these concerns about the logo and show all of JewishGen's volunteers and contributors that JewishGen is still our community and that we are valued.
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 4:43 AM
Folks, don't be fooled,there's a numbers gain underway. JewGen claims that out of 530 votes,68% say it's horrible. Out of 107 comments listed here, the negative percentage is above 90%. The sad part is - NO ONE IS LISTENING.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 5:46 AM
Isn't it strange how genuine, caring and constructive all the negative comments were but the very, very few positive comments could say nothing more than "its great" or "i like it"ReplyDelete
Has this site been hacked into by a few teenagers perhaps, who know nothing about us, bent on causing mischief or just having fun?
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 6:18 AM
The old logo didn't need explanation. That was it's strength.ReplyDelete
The weakness of the new one is that nobody can understand it without explanation.
I have 40 years experience in Graphic Design.
- Shelley StillmanAugust 26, 2008 at 10:11 AM
We have been given the logo to discuss as a red herring. The real issue is the process that was followed before the merger. There was no discussion among the membership, no opportunity for input among the societies and No vote at the conference.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 10:56 AM
It looks like an environmentally enhanced version of the Yellow Star my grandfather was forced to wear.ReplyDelete
What an incredible insult!!
Each time I look at the new logo I first see a blue propeller superimposed on top of a green triangular-shaped object. It's only when I tell myself it's supposed to be a magen david that my mind actually sees the star. I don't think it's particularly well designed. This being said, I don't think the old tree logo was anything special, so it would be nice to have something new and improved -- only this new stylized star isn't it. Please go back to the drawing board.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 11:28 AM
Stop insulting the logo! It changed. Finished, end of discussion! and who cares lets see any of you make a different logo that is good.....uh hu thought so! so stop saying mean things calm down breath in breath out. By the way I like it!ReplyDelete
Get a new graphic designer. The logo has no unity.ReplyDelete
Jewish Gen is about families. 5,000 years of Jewish history is not defined by the Holocaust, regardless of its magnitude.
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 11:49 AM
the logo means nothing and conveys nothing. It is not recognizable as a Jewish star at all. go back to the old logo and don't waste doantion money on al the changes a new logo needs.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 12:15 PM
First reactions are crucial and, unfortunately, despite the PR, the initial reaction by the majority of IAJGS attendees to the logo was negative, hands down. One could try to parse the positive aspects..cool colors, pleasant flower design, but if you need to explain the symbolism the graphic designer has not done his or her job well at all. A modernization or re-colorization of the original design would have been wiser. It wasn't broke, so why fix it? This logo is more suitable for a clean-tech start up or macrobiotic cafe than a genealogical research organization. And what's with the "hidden" Mogen David you can only see with a magnifying glass? (Well...I guess that part fits with genealogists...) On the other hand...I don't side with the conspiracy theorists that this is a plot for a new world order of the genealogical websites to unify as one behind similar, inscrutable symbols. Just a misguided attempt by a graphic design firm who didn't "get" their audience, and wasn't especially inventive. The colors are somber, the logo boring, unimaginitive, and rudimentary. Next time propose several, hold a contest, and let your consitutents express their opinions before the decision, not after. We are all spritual "stockholders" in JewishGen, after all, and our voices should be heard.ReplyDelete
From a marketing point of view, If JewishGen wants to maintain branding, it would do well to stick to its old image (the one everyone prefers) and just disseminate it more frequently. Creating a new image will be disruptive and not in the best interests of the organization.ReplyDelete
Spend your resources raising money instead.
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 12:41 PM
you write: "I am happy to report that the reviews have been mostly positive, exciting and upbeat."ReplyDelete
are you kidding? my three year old can count better than that.
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Coke learned its lesson and reintroduced Classic Coke.......ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 3:20 PM
The August 26 11;28 posting is the hight of Chutzpa, obviously by someone in management directly involved in the new logo. Unfortunately it says it all. It's a done deal. They are not interested in our views, and why they asked for comments is beyond me. The posting says it all - suck up to it and shut up.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 4:20 PM
Thanks for the above comment - I heartily agree but I took another look at the 11.28 entry "Stop insulting the logo! It changed. Finished, end of discussion! and who cares lets see any of you make a different logo that is good.....uh hu thought so! so stop saying mean things calm down breath in breath out. By the way I like it!"ReplyDelete
But could this really be from the "management" hiding under a cloak of anonymity and illiteracy? I had assumed they were better educated than that. This sounds like another illiterate hacker brought in to swell the "YES" ranks.
This is so, so sad - were it not for all my close friends in my SIG, I would resign from Jewishgen forthwith. Do others feel the same? No data will ever be submitted to the organisation till all is in the open and totally transparent. As for cash donations - that area is very murky too. Into whose pockets will that cash go? Will more ridiculous, expensive innovations be foist upon us?
The Logo is symbolic - I never thought much about it before, but now I realise how very important it was. We all belonged to a family - now it is one big mess - like a stranded whale pod.
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 5:26 PM
VERY BAD CHOICE......DOESN'T LOOK LIKE STAR OF DAVID, BUT A PROPELLER.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 5:30 PM
How much did this ugly logo cost? It's worth about $1.00ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 5:49 PM
You wrote:ReplyDelete
"This is so, so sad - were it not for all my close friends in my SIG, I would resign from Jewishgen forthwith. Do others feel the same?"
JewishGen has turned away from a being a heimish community and instead, is a commodity - to be used as seen fit by the deepest pockets.
I will NOT be submitting any new data, any new names or volunteering for projects for that reason alone. Oh, and don't bother sending me out any donation requests... the current JG is not getting another penny from me.
It's a big mishegoss, the way this has occurred. And it could have been prevented.
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 5:52 PM
I am very disappointed with Jewishgen. The release of Jewish records to Ancestry and the new logo is ridiculous! Jewishgen needs to keep its independence. The new Jewishgen logo appears Christian. Jewishgen has always been my favorite site for research for 10+ years, but this has left a so called bad taste. Please rethink your decisions. I will be reconsidering any future donations to Jewishgen.ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 5:52 PM
The more I read the opening paragraph, the more it makes my blood boil:ReplyDelete
"I am happy to report that the reviews have been mostly positive, exciting and upbeat".
In the light of the comments above, I find this comment plain insulting.
I am challenging the "Jewishgen Administrator" or anyone in JewishGen management who wrote this piece of patronizing nonsense to post a follow up to this thread.
Apologies for the rant. This is not the Jewishgen I cherished for the last decade
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 5:57 PM
I have the feeling this was forced upon them by Ancestry. It looks way too much like Ancestry's hand, plus the explanation sounds as though a non-Jew wrote it. Ancestry seems to feel that Jewish History is ONLY about the Holocaust and that the other 5750 years of Jewish History don't count.ReplyDelete
What other "tricks" does Ancestry have up its sleeve?
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 5:58 PM
How do I remove my personal data from AncestryGen... I mean JewishGen?ReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 6:02 PM
the new logo looks a military badge from NAZI GermanyReplyDelete
- AnonymousAugust 26, 2008 at 6:50 PM
On another thread, JG Admin writes:ReplyDelete
"2) We are open to all feedback, both positive and negative. We appreciate the volunteers who help us provide this important service to the Jewish genealogical community and we will do everything possible to be as transparent and open as possible."
Obviously, he hasn't gotten to THIS thread yet!
If the boychick continues to talk PR dreck (such as the above paragraph) ... he won't be taken seriously pretty soon.
I posted my objection to the new logo and my concerns about the direction in which JG is headed here here and on another blog earlier; but I feel I must add the following.ReplyDelete
I am one of those who was raised without knowledge of her Jewish ancestry. 13 years ago, I decided enough was enough: I decided to look for the Jewish family I never got to know as a child. Thanks to JewishGen, and volunteer 'Genners, I learned, I grew, I discovered the person I am comfortable being and the heritage that is rightfully mine ... and I found a huge wonderful extended family. During that process, I also discovered that in spite of a lack of prior knowledge, I too had contributions to make to the JewishGen research community.
The current lack of disclosure we are witnessing from the JewishGen administration concerning the future directions of JewishGen is very troubling. I feel, as do others, that there has been a betrayal of a trust ... perhaps unwritten, but a trust nonetheless ... that bound us together with common purpose. It is unsettling, and disturbing. I can understand the reasons of those who are pulling back their support; but I do NOT understand why there has been neither swift nor substantive commentary from either JewishGen or Ancestry to address the disquiet in the community.
The longer the administrative silence continues, the more likely it is that the JewishGen community we knew and loved is seeing its final days. What a waste.
Because people are not familiar with this blog they may not yet have read UPDATE: CLICK HERE to read a letter from Dr. David Marwell about the new logo. And to confuse matters even more there is now a correspondence column under Dr Marwell's reply as well as this ongoing one!ReplyDelete
This "Update" link is to be found at the top of this page on the right.
I have alerted many active genners to this blog - most had no idea about it. The trouble is that we all have a lot to do and to spread important news like this in a blog guarantees that most genners will not read it.
We have a special SIG for Annual Conference News - so why not one for important administrative announcements so everyone can subscribe? We should not have to root around like truffle hounds. Why this blog for such important matters?
Also I would like to comment on Dr Marwell's statement on the poll held on this site which showed an overwhelming *NO* to the new logo. This is what we can read if we click on the update: 12 people were used to select the new logo - but two were against it - however Dr Marwell tells us:
"Although the poll on the Blog might suggest that we were wrong, I want to caution that it was most unscientific, and we regret the manner in which it was introduced."
I am a scientist but not a statistician and even I can tell you that 10 who liked it, is of less significance scientifically than 300 plus who did not.
The sample chosen by Dr Marwell is too small to be representative and they may all have tried to fall in-line to show consensus.
I try to avoid "politics" at all costs and wish to get on with genealogy but when I feel people are being treated unfairly I resent it.
In my posting above, I mentioned Dr Marwell's letter - and this where three new comments/postings have now appeared. As I said, this is utterly confusing.ReplyDelete
If the postings dry up it is not because of lack of fervour but because of lack of information, lack of time and last but not least, a feeling of hopelessness.
Short regular postings should be sent to each SIG and the Discussion Group, in the interests of democracy, to alert *everyone* to these off-topic discussions. The topic subjects could be listed.
I am sure hardly any of the thousands of genners know. Furthermore, we are all very busy genealogists, *not* bloggers.
When the signature choice altered, I was utterly baffled. I plumped for Google and up came my name in truncated form, as I had a google account. I have no idea what the others are: 1. LiveJournal 2. Wordpress 3. TypePad 4. AIM and finally 5. OpenID which I presume means "full name".
Could the administrator please put out a clear explanation asap so that everyone knows [from gt-grandmothers and gt-grandfathers down to rocket scientists, all over the world] what all this is about? Are we identifiable when we write in? Some genners who work as moderators etc, may be frightened to express their opinions freely.
I [grandmother - biotechnologist consultant] am good at writing clearly so if he/she needs any help, I am here to help. Then at least I will know if my google mail address has showed up with this posting!
This is getting ridiculous.ReplyDelete
No longer being able to post anonymously, a very hostile (bordering on contempt) attitude on administration's part and utter betrayal of JewishGen's membership.
I am certainly not feeling inclined to give JewishGen any more data and/or money.
This is getting ridiculous!ReplyDelete
No longer being able to post anonymously, JewishGen administration treating the membership with contempt and disdain, certainly not listening to anyone except the "inner circle"...
I am seriously rethinking my volunteer and financial commitments to JewishGen.
There are now three separate places on this Blog that have comments on the LOGO and related matters - as I said a few day ago we are now all expected to be truffle hounds.ReplyDelete
Also, I have not yet had any answer to the *signature identity issue* I brought up above.
I see "first" - who wrote two comments above is anxious about the "identity" problem too.
We must have an answer to this asap to allay feelings of unease.
If Ancestry's intent is as noble as it's made out to be, then leave the old logo the way it is: recognized, trusted and liked by all who see it every time they log on to JewishGen.ReplyDelete
The NEW logo might fit in well with an automotive/aeronautic outfit — but in Jewish genealogy where we're talking sentiment, research, fulfilment, a *dressed-up propellor* has no place.
Please reverse this abomination at once! There was nothing *dated* in the original logo, ergo: no need for an *update* to the 21st century!
And another thing: kindly refrain from trivializing the Holocaust by *fitting in* the victims.


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What is the hold up?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.
Good question! Here are two more:1.) Does the government have any rebuttal?2.) Why does the world tolerate this situation?
2.) Why does the world tolerate this situation?
The main reason is because it's politically expedient to do so.
Rilian:Sadat was assassinated by officers influenced by the underground Islamic Jihad, and succeeded by the current president Mubarak.
Your assessment is correct, allow me to add: Saddat was one of the members of the islamic brotherhood in the 40's, was imprisoned because he assassinated a political figure and after the revolution in 1952, he was a near the top member in the government. He mastered a plan to chase the Copts out of the top positions and he made his intentions clear in the islamic council in 1956. When he became president, he got the full support of the US to carry out his plans in supporting the islamic groups. After he got rid of the Israeli occupation, he turned full power to persecute the Copts. He got to taste his own medicine when the beast he raised killed him.
They always cry about the fact that European colonialism destroyed their culture but that happened first with the Arabs and Mohummad.
I'm not seeing how the Arabs could destroy their own culture by expanding it, but what you are getting at is quite offensive to me as an Arab (as if there was never anything positive about us).
It is not me saying this,it is history. Do find the truth about history offensive? Why?
How can you be an arab ? There is nothing wrong with being arab, but I understand you are a christian and your family has been a christian, so how can you be ethnically arab ?By arab I refer to the invaders from Saudi Pennisula from the 7th century. They were muslims. Any chance of converting would mean to flee to other places outside their rule, which was not an option in these days, or being killed as an apostate. In both cases, you would have ceased to be in Syria. Muslims nowadays are either completely arabs or a mix between the ethnic groups in the conquered lands (Copts, Caldenians, Assyrians, Greek, Syrian,Jews, ....) with arab. Likewise, christians in the Middle East cannot be arab, for they would have been converted to Islam long ago.
Dear Ibrahim,I am not sure we disagree. I was talking about ethnicity, but you are talking to culture as in speaking arabic, reading arabic books and being influenced by arabic culture. I personally have benefitted a lot from the arabic philosophers like Taufik El-Hakim, Zakki Naguib Mahmoud and have came to admire Ibn Rushd, being the first anti-terrorist voice to emerge from this world. I also speak arabic fluently, but I do not think that I have adopted the arabic culture.
My source of information is from an apostate muslim named Ibn Warraq who is a very enlightening author.You should read his book"Why I am not a Muslim"Chapter 8" Arab imperialism and islamic colonialism.
I came onto this thread for enlightenment and to stretch my mind, I dont come here to pick a fight and make accusations!That might be in your nature but it is not in mine.
As it says in the New Testament scriptures: a servant of the Lord does not need to fight.I think I will log off and go to the evangelical forum instead!
Hi everyoneEver since the 911 incident,I have been doing research into Islam and I really cant beleive their legacy of terrorism in the world.They always cry about the fact that European colonialism destroyed their culture but that happened first with the Arabs and Mohummad.I happened to come across a section in Ibn Warraqs book 'Why I am not a muslim'. There is a section about the Coptic Church and I became intrigued with the history of the Coptic Church. I have been on the internet trying to find out about this ancient heritage of Egypt.It has given me a new perspective on the middle east and that this land had a rich heritage before Islam.As an American we sometimes equate the word middle east with Islam which is an erroneous mistake. Keep up the great threads,I enjoy reading everything about the Orthodox Church!
I think I will log off and go to the evangelical forum instead!
Since when were Syrians considered Arabs? True Syrians come from an ancient organized civilization, whereas Arabs from the deserts of Saudi Arabia and far east.
I spoke with a Syrian Orthodox friend of mine, and he says that Syrians are indeed not ethnic Arab, but are Aramaic in descent. He says to be Syriac is not Arab, but derived from the ancient Syrians mentioned in the Old Testament, and not the desert tribal Arabs. Two different things, as I understand it.
I think you all should read "The Multiple Identities of the Middle East" by Bernard Lewis. He addresses how these terms like nationality, ethnicity, religion, and culture, are used by different people in different ways, having been sort of forced onto the Middle East from the West (culturally speaking) and creating sometimes confusion when different people using the same word mean different things. It's available at amazon.com and is pretty reasonably priced.Anastasios
I must differ with you on the point that Aramaic Syrians are to be considered ethnic Arabs. That is like saying Coptic Egyptians are ethnic Arabs, which is of course false. Ethnicity should describe heritage, and not just the speaking language of the people. One cannot say that the Aramaic Syrians have any connection to the Arabs, who in fact invaded Syria in 639 A.D. (prelude to the Arab invasion of Egypt).
Just because the Arabs invaded a region does not make the original people there Arab. It is more than speculation to believe that intermarriages between invading Arabs and native Syrians were extremely rare. Therefore, since I'm talking about heritage, the Aramaic Orthodox Syrians of the region were not ethnic Arabs, but merely assimilated into the Arab world via language, much like us, the Copts. Can we call the ancient Egyptians Arab? Or how about the ancient Syrians? If not, then ethnically speaking, neither Syrians or Copts are Arab.
In a way, the situation in the Middle East could be compared and contrasted with Western colonialism in other parts of the world, although this is really a vast over-simplification and there are some MAJOR differences. Just because Cherokees, Lakotas, and Australian Aborigines now speak English, and for the most part wear Western clothing, etc., this does not make them Europeans. In the same way, Copts, Syrians, Berbers, etc., are not Arabs, even though they now adhere to the dominant culture.
Again, this is a very glib assessment, but I guess the major differences are that Western discriminatory practices were based on notions of so-called "race", while Muslim discrimination was rooted mostly in religion. Also, Islam seemed content, for the most part, to absorb the conquered, while the Westerners, by-and-large, sought to supplant them.
I wish to thank all of the posters in this thread. I actually learned some things and needed the paradigm shift, so to speak, in order to dispel some stereotypes I never questioned. Anyway, just because I use English (now) as my main language does not make me a "Brit" <grin>
It is not history that I find offensive. It is the confusion over ethnicity that some make, in ignorance, that mislabels Copts as ethnic (bloodline) Arabs, that I take as offensive- because it incorrectly describes my people's glorious history. It is the treatment of Copts as second-class citizens in our own land that I find offensive. It is the labeling of Egypt as an "Arab Republic" that I find offensive. It is happenings such as that of the Armanious family (of blessed memory) that I find offensive. I'm not complaining, but rather listing injustices. The exact phrasing escapes me, but I believe it was St. John Chrysostom who said, 'It is sinful to keep silent in the face in injustice.' Persecute us, fine, but by God do not deny us the dignity and equality of citizenship that any native should have.
Islam is very much tangled with Arabic heritage and culture, one cannot deny this. Except for converts, there are no arabs who are anything else but muslims. Maybe there are some JEWISH arabs in Yemen, but I cannot think of any other pure arabic line that is not muslim.
first, Copts are ethnically not arabs, nor are they influenced by arab characteristics and culture for the big part of identity or culture. As much should be clear.
I am not sure how much time you spent in arabic countries, but you will find in Saudi , for example, Islam is the dominant force, if not the only one. So in Egypt, with exception of the Copts and some enlightened muslims that cannot justify a general statement. The street in arabic nations is domintated by islam, everyday life is controlled by Fatwas, the very specical relation between a couple is controlled by religion as well. Eating, drinking, driving, how to enter the bathroom ( right foot or left), prayers (of course), treating your neighbours, whether to say "Merry Christmas" to christians or not, whether to say hello to them or not, is all in need for a FATWA. I am not kidding , I lived their for 20 years and I know exactly how these places are
I am sorry, I know that some christian Baaths party members want to separate both, but that is exactly why Baath is a big failure. It missed the mark on many issues, and I do not know what Micheal 3afla2 was thinking when he embraced arabic nationalism. Arabic identity and Islam are one and the same to millions. If you can separate , that is fine, but it is only you. The 280 millions from the ocean to the Gulf believe firmly in Sayed Kutb's famous phrase: " I am egyptian, but Islam has wiped off my ethnicity and made me a proud arab".
I might even argue that the lack of patriot spirit for one own's country and being replaced by an imaginary arabic nationalism is what brought the arabic states, at least Egypt, to this sad state. For how can a country in which 85% of its citizens,the muslims, contibute to its advancement if they believe , by their religion, that they should help their neighbours , the other muslims, who are also arabs, more than their country ? Loving Egypt is never said anymore, replaced by a love for the desert inhabitants that do not share anything with Egypt, except a religion.
Is it a coincidence that once Egyptian Patriotism, the pharaonic pride that is not taught anymore in schools, or taught as a side topic, once replaced by arabic nationalism, Egypt has went from a country that had a stronger economy than Great Britian (no joke here) and had an excellent education system and an all around rising nation, to a nation that is dependent on outside help ?I will not talk about Syria, or Algeria, or Iraq, or Yemen, but you know where they are.
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A few forum threads appeared on the forums (nice work on Datamining the legendary staff!), people asked me tons of questions, it's time to try to do a preview of the legendary staff!
This is not an official preview, the whole post could just be speculation going wrong. There is definitely a lot of data available and it's definitely enough to assume that this is indeed the legendary staff but unless you hear it from a blue poster, anything I post could be a giant lie.
In any case, nothing is official, nothing is final, this is just data from a test server.
Weapon Model
The staff has 3 models and we can assume that it will be upgraded through multiple quests/events like Shadowmourne. The upgraded is much more visible than with Shadowmourne and it looks like you will even add parts to your staff at some point.
The staff seems to have a lot of icon, hints of various stages of construction/quest.
A couple of quests added in the patch seems to be related to the staff. Most importantly, it seems that the questline is heavily tied to the Keepers of Time.
- Anachronos will apparently show you the future of Azeroth
- You will have to collect Living Ember and spend 9000 Gold on 3 x Sands of Time to rebuild the "Eye". We assume that Living Ember is the new Primordial Saronite and the "Eye" is Timeless Eye datamined in this patch.
- The track of information ends with the quest started after you rebuild the Timeless Eye.
A Legendary Engagement / A Legendary Engagement
Objective - Speak to Anachronos in the Caverns of Time.
Description - I expected that I would find you here,
*Coridormi smiles.*
For reasons unknown to me, my master seeks audience with you. I would counsel you not to take this invitation lightly,
Speak to me when you are ready and I shall personally deliver you.
A Wrinkle in Time
Objective - Speak to Anachronos in the Caverns of Time to witness the future of Azeroth.
Description - Listen carefully,
If action is not taken to change the course of this timeline's future, the outcome is clear. Brace yourself, mortal, and behold the future of Azeroth.
All-Seeing Eye
Objective - Collect 25 Living Embers from Firelands and 3 Sands of Time.
Description - I perceive the questions that burn within your mind and I must confess that I share in your uncertainty... a rare position for one such as I, and a most unsettling one. As I scour time to find traces of this obscured event, you must aid me in the creation of an Eye, both to test your worthiness, and to provide an essential tool in the unraveling of this mystery.
Venture into the Plane of Fire,
On a Wing and a Prayer
Objective - Bring the Timeless Eye to Coldarra.
Description - Time well spent, mortal.
While you were struggling in the Plane of Fire, my watchers and I were able to determine where and, most importantly, when our vision was obscured. We have discovered that the shroud was placed over the Nexus, far to the north in the realm of the blue dragonflight.
I have attuned the Timeless Eye to show you the occurrences that remain hidden to us here. Go at once to Coldarra and search out a place suitable for the Eye's activation.
Travel well, friend.


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Prescriber Checkup
The Doctors and Drugs in Medicare Part D
Search for a Prescriber, City or Zip Code
Madison heights | Michigan | 48071
Incorrect Info?
Search this name in Dollars for Docs »
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At A Glance: This Prescriber in 2016
Self-Reported Primary Specialty
This Prescriber's Drugs
The table below list this provider's drugs, the number of prescriptions and how many went to seniors. Drugs are ranked by volume and compared with the rank for all providers in the same specialty and state. The list below includes only those drugs for which this provider wrote 50 or more prescriptions.
Search for a Drug
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An opioid drug. More » Prescription opioids (painkillers) can help alleviate certain kinds of pain in the short term but carry serious health risks.
An antibiotic drug. More » Used to treat bacterial infections but are often prescribed incorrectly to treat viral infections, such as chest colds or the flu.
An antipsychotic drug. More » Antipsychotics are frequently given to dementia patients, though it increases their risk of death.
This provider is among the top 10 prescribers of this drug in the country.
This provider's prescriptions for this drug were for more days than those of peers. More » Because of this, his or her prescription count may be lower.
This provider's prescriptions for this drug were for fewer days than those of peers. More » Because of this, his or her prescription count may be higher.
|Drug Name
|Total Prescriptions Filled with Refills
to 65+
|Patients Receiving this Drug
prescriptions, 13% of all prescriptions
patients, 33% of all patients
About This Data
Prescribing data from Medicare's prescription drug benefit, known as Part D, was compiled and released by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, the federal agency that oversees the program. The data for 2016 includes more than 1.5 billion prescriptions written by 1.1 million doctors, nurses and other providers. This database lists over 460,000 of those providers who wrote 50 or more prescriptions for at least one drug that year. More than three-fourths of these prescriptions went to patients 65 and older; the rest were for disabled patients. Methodology »
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If you are a provider and you believe your address is incorrect, check the listing you created on the National Provider Identifier registry. If you change your listing, send a note to [email protected] and we will update your information. If you have other questions about this data, send a note to [email protected].
- No comparisons are shown if there are fewer than 20 prescribers in the state share this specialty.
- Comparisons do not take into account the medical conditions of patients. Medications for certain conditions do not have generic alternatives, so patients would receive more expensive brand name drugs.
- This provider's address and specialty information was last updated on May 23, 2012.
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Through the Looking-Glass Display
Visit the Magna Carta Vault in Lincoln Castle to see a first edition of Lewis Carroll's 'Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There' on display, gifted to Alfred Lord Tennyson by Lewis Carrol for Christmas in 1871.Find out more
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3-10 miles from LincolnVillages & Countryside
Terry O'Toole Theatre
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3-10 miles from LincolnVillages & Countryside
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Cathedral QuarterCity of Lincoln
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Green Mountain Decaffeinated Coffee, Breakfast Blend (80 K-Cups)
Product Details
About this item
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Army Reserve Pvt. Daniel R. Lewis has graduated from Basic Combat Training at Fort Sill, Lawton, Okla.
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