How can I obtain public information (documentation and sources)
about Xservers implemented with graphics processors?

I am specially interested in Xservers developed for the TMS34020
Texas Instruments graphic processor.


	Very possibly, but if it's still going to be backwards compatible
with the ISA bus, it's going to be the same tripe that the current EISA
implementation really is.

	From what I've seen, the PCI bus will just be a new 32bit 33MHz
intelligent bus (ie, bus controller takes care of interrupts and the like,
not jumpers...)  Hopefully it'll get somewhere up there with the AMIGA
Zorro III bus....

	VL Bus is a bit too much of a hack for my liking...


No, instead you have stupid things like 3600 and 86400 and 31556925.9747 and
299792.458 and 9.80665 and ...

How many cc's in a ml anyway?  The metric system has its problems, just not
as many of them.


[This belongs in comp.windows.x.i386unix - I've redirected followups]

I know for a fact that the EISA version of the Orchid ProDesigner IIS
works.  However, an EISA SVGA card is likely a waste of money.

When XFree86 2.0 comes out, with support for accelerated chipsets, ISA,
EISA, and VLB will all be supported.

The more important question is "what chipsets are supported?".  The bus
is basically irrelevent as a compatibility issue.

--
David Wexelblat <dwex@mtgzfs3.att.com>  (908) 957-5871  Fax: (908) 957-5627
AT&T Bell Laboratories, 200 Laurel Ave - 3F-428, Middletown, NJ  07748

XFree86 requests should be addressed to <xfree86@physics.su.oz.au>


Where could I find a description of the JPG file format?  Specifically
I need to know where in a JPG file I can find the height and width of
the image, and perhaps even the number of colors being used.

Any suggestions?

Peter


Lou wanted Morris all along.  The idiot.  Giving the man $40 million
to play with is like giving a five year old a loaded Uzi with the
safety off.  The only question is how many shots he will get off
before somebody is wise enough to take it away.

I don't see why people expect Boston to finish sixth.  The bottom four
teams last year were essentially tied.  Boston, in seventh place, had
73 wins.  The Yankees and Indians, tied for fourth place, had 76 wins.

Now I should think it is obvious that the Red Sox improved more than
the Indians or Tigers.  Basically, the Red Sox are stronger this year
at 1B, DH, SS, LF, and RF.  They have healthier starting pitchers (so
far, at least) and better relievers.  I see no reason why they
shouldn't win ~85 games.  Meanwhile, the Indians are in shambles and
the Tigers *still* have no pitching.  They will win some 20-3
blowouts, but they will lose an awful lot of 7-5 games too.

*MAYBE* the Sox will play poorly, win 78 games, and finish fifth.
But I think third or fourth place is more likely.


Nice to think, but naive.  The fact is that millions of people today
are sending highly confidential information over unencoded, easy to
receive cellular phones.  They figure the chances of being heard are
small, so they risk it.

And 99.9% of people don't understand crypto the way the least of the
sci.crypt newbies does.   If Clinton tells them it's good crypto,
they'll believe him, and send important stuff over it, and be thankful
that they're no longer using clear-voice FM cellular phones.

Only a tiny fraction of people will want more crypto.  Worse, in the
eyes of the government, which swears up and down the algorithim is
spook-level secure (and it may indeed be) the only reason you could
possibly want this extra level is to avoid police.

By using it, you'll attract attention as a likely lawbreaker.

"Your honour, the suspect suddenly started using another level of
cryptography and we can't tap his phone calls any more.  He must
have something to hide.  Please sign the warrant to search his
house..."


(FRANK MICH
even show

At least your parents didn't move you Idaho.  The only things that get
any coverage there are football, basketball and baseball!


Good question.  I don't have a nice concise answer, though.  What about the
child whose parents are crushed emotionally because he/she starts a carerr
doing something they greatly dislike.  It is the same kind of harm, and
is probably "caused" by the same thing:  The desire of the child to be
true to his or her self.

What is more important, being true to yourself or burying that truth within
you in order to maintain peace in the family?

hard question, no good answer.


  Try Goldstar. They make them, and they are available immediately in Mac
configurations. I ordered a pair from Computerland (8 meg variety) and
they work like a charm. I've had them for two weeks.


: I am in the market for a bike and have recently found a 1990
: Honda VRF 750 at a dealership. The bike has about 47,000 miles
: and is around $4500. It has had two previous owners, both employees
: of the dealership who, I have been told, took very good care of the
: bike.

: I have two questions: 1) Is this too many miles for a bike? I know this
: would not be many miles for a car but I am unfamiliar with the life
: span of bikes. 2) Is this a decent price? I am also unfamilar with
: prices for used bikes. Is there a blue book for bikes like there is
: for cars?.

: Thanks for any advice you can give.

:                             --Mark
--

Mark,

  47k is not too many miles on a VFR750.  I sold my (well maintained)
'87 VFR700 with 52k miles on it and the engine was in mint condition.
All that the bike needed was steering head bearings and fork bushings
and seals.  The guy who bought it had a mechanic pull the valve covers
to look at the top end, do a compression check etc.  He confirmed it was
mint.

   As for price, $4500 seems a little steep.  I bought my '90 with 12k
miles on it a year ago (and in absolutely cherry condition) for $4800.
There is a bluebook, ask your bank or credit union for the going price.
I've seen a couple of ads for VFR's in the $4500 dollar range.  They all
said low miles & mint condition but I didn't actually go look at them.

   A VFR is a very sweet bike and will last you forever if you maintain
it at all.  One thing to look for, BTW, is a soft front end.  If my
VFR is any indication, at 12k miles the fork springs were totally shot.
Progressive springs ($55) fixed it right up.

Good luck,


(References: deleted to move this to a new thread)

"To put it as simply as possible: *I am not a Muslim*.[...] I do not
 accept the charge of apostacy, because I have never in my adult life
 affirmed any belief, and what one has not affirmed one can not be
 said to have apostasized from.  The Islam I know states clearly that
 'there can be no coercion in matters of religion'.  The many Muslims
 I respect would be horrified by the idea that they belong to their
 faith *purely by virtue of birth*, and that a person who freely chose
 not to be a Muslim could therefore be put to death."
    	    	    	    	Salman Rushdie, "In Good Faith", 1990

"God, Satan, Paradise, and Hell all vanished one day in my fifteenth
 year, when I quite abruptly lost my faith.  [...]and afterwards, to
 prove my new-found atheism, I bought myself a rather tasteless ham
 sandwich, and so partook for the first time of the forbidden flesh of
 the swine.  No thunderbolt arrived to strike me down. [...] From that
 day to this I have thought of myself as a wholly seculat person."
    	    	    	    	Salman Rushdie, "In God We Trust", 1985

Only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the
nature of the novel could think such a thing.  I'll accept it
(reluctantly) from mobs in Pakistan, but not from you.  What is
presented in the fictional dream of a demented character cannot by the
wildest stretch of the imagination be considered a reflection on the
actual Mohammad.  What's worse, the novel doesn't present the
Mahound/Mohammed character in any worse light than secular histories
of Islam; in particular, there is no "lewd" misrepresentation of his
life or that of his wives.

Don't hold back; he's considered an apostate and a blasphemer.
However, it's not for his writing in _The Satanic Verses_, but for
what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is
contained in that book.  I have yet to find *one single muslim* who
has convinced me that they have read the book.  Some have initially
claimed to have done so, but none has shown more knowledge of the book
than a superficial Newsweek story might impart, and all have made
factual misstatements about events in the book.

I'll keep an eye out for it.  I have a counter-proposal: I suggest
that you see the Viking hardcover by Salman Rushdie called _The
Satanic Verses_.  Perhaps then you'll understand.


-*-----

I think the question is: What is extra-scientific about this?

It has been a long time since anyone has proposed restrictions on
where one comes up with ideas in order for them to be considered
legitimate hypotheses.  The point, in short, is this: hypotheses and
speculation in science may come from wild flights of fancy,
daydreams, ancient traditions, modern quackery, or anywhere else.


Two questions:
1: I'm trying to figure out how to access cmos advanced chip setting on a
EISA motherboard (AIR) that has AMI bios..specifically I would like to set
the atclk or wait states or bus speed on this board, I can't seem to be
able to do it..any help in this area would be greatly appreciated.

2: I am looking for a phone number for WANGTEK tape drives, specifically I
am looking for jumper settings on a 5099EN24 drive..


Y'all lighten up on Harry, Skip'll be like that in a couple of years!!>

Harry's a great personality.  He's the reason I like Cubs broadcasts.
(It's certainly not the quality of the team).

Chop Chop

Michael Mule'


Actually detecting a BREAK is done by watching for a "character" containing
all zero bits with the framing error resulting from its receipt.  This
means that the line stayed in the zero bit state even past the stop bit
time slot, which basically indicates a BREAK.  There is no special way to
detect BREAK that I have found other than this -- there's no magic signal
generated by UARTs, etc.


 > I wonder if Ojeda will sue anyone - because his career may be over.

Not due to the accident -- he just got a (really) bad haircut.  Now, if you
meant due to his floating fastball, well...


Is it right??? That is new stuff for me. So it means that  you just can
not put a sattellite around around the Moon for too long because its
orbit will be unstable??? If so, what is the reason??? Is that because
the combined gravitacional atraction of the Sun,Moon and Earth
that does not provide a stable  orbit around the Moon???

 C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV

C.O.Egalon@larc.nasa.gov


Could it be Public Missile, Inc in Michigan?

From the description of ad here, it sounds like they're talking about
"High Power Rocketry", an outgrowth of model rocketry.  This hobby
uses non-metallic structural compoments and commerically manufactured
engines ranging in impulse classification from G to P.  The hobby
has been flourishing from early 1980s and is becoming increasing popular.
Technically this is not consider amateur rocketry.

Any rocket with a liftoff weight greater than 3.3 pounds OR using a
total impulse of G or greater, REQUIRES an FAA waiver to launch.
Typically, a group of people get an FAA waiver for specified period
of time (ie week, weekend, etc.) at a designated site and time, and
all of the launches are then covered under this "blanket waiver".
There is also a "High Power Safety Code" which designates more
specific rules such as launch field size, etc.

Finally, in order to purchase any of the larger (Class B) rocket
motors you need to certified through either the National Association
of Rocketry or Tripoli Rocketry Association. Certification procedures
require a demonstarted handling and "safe" flight at a total impulse
level.

For more information, watch rec.models.rockets newsgroup.


# #The argument that "slavery was a dying institution" was often made by
# 						     ^^^
# 						     (IS)
#
# #historians, mainly Southerners, who sought to divert attention from the
# #institution as the central issue of the Civil War.  In fact, however,
# #the argument is specious, at best.  More recent scholarship from the
# #last 20-30 years demonstrates rather conclusively that the cotton/sugar/
# #tobacco economy and its reliance on slavery was increasingly dominant in
# #the South prior to the Civil War.
#
# This is because the South did not receive the massive momentum of capital
#  intensive growth that the Northern states did. Compare the Northern
#  agricultural system with the Southern and you will see a major difference
#  in the capital to labor intensity.

Capital and labor are one and the same in a slave economy.  Except that
capital doesn't reproduce quite as readily as slaves did.

Slavery was a dying institution before the cotton gin, yes, but not
in 1850.

# #It is true that cotton suffered from price depression in the 1840's -
# #the period used to claim that slavery would not have lasted in the
# #South.
#
# That is not the argument that I have heard. It would not have lasted because
#  the growth in the North would not have been sustained for much longer without
#  spilling over to the Southern states, i.e. Northern industry would have
#  migrated capital to the Southern states, and with that would have come
#  immigrant labor to the ports of the South, e.g. Charleston, Savannah, Mobile,
#  New Orleans, etc. This would have put the breaks on the slave market and
#  slavery would have been out-moded by the capital intensity of competing
#  agriculturalists. Those that insisted on keeping slaves because of their
#  "Cruel Hearts and Hatred for Black People" would have been driven out of
#  business. Simple capital to labor ratio...read Michael Parkin _Microeconomics_
#  2nd edition, and any other basic economics book.

This assumes that the slave holder dominance over state governments
would not have caused the passage of laws to keep out capital from the
North.  Since slave holders were prepared to do almost anything else
to destroy free markets in order to maintain slavery, I do not doubt
that they would have passed laws to cripple any serious competitive
threat.  Thomas Sowell's _Market and Minorities_ argues that the
maintenance of slavery, and the costs it imposed on state and local
governments, discouraged not only capital formation, but also outside
capital investment in the Southern states.

# 	Craig A. Depken, II


[deletions]

If this is grounded firmly in Islam, as you claim, then you have just
exposed Islam as the grounds for terrorism, plain and simple.

Whether you like it or not, whether Rushdie acted like a total jerk or
not, there is no acceptable civilized basis for putting someone in fear
of their life for words.

It simply does not matter whether his underlying motive was to find the
worst possible way he could to insult Muslims and their beliefs, got that?
You do not threaten the life of someone for words - when you do, you
quite simply admit the backruptcy of your position.  If you support
threatening the life of someone for words, you are not yet civilized.

This is exactly where I, and many of the people I know, have to depart
from respecting the religions of others.  When those beliefs allow and
encourage (by interpretation) the killing of non-physical opposition.

You, or I or anyone, are more than privledged to believe that someone,
whether it be Rushdie or Bush or Hussien or whover, is beyond the pale
of civilized society and you can condemn his/her soul, refuse to allow
any members of your association to interact with him/her, _peacably_
demonstrate to try to convince others to disassociate themselves from
the "miscreants", or whatever, short of physical force.

But once you physically threaten, or support physical threats, you get
much closer to your earlier comparison of rape - with YOU as the rapist
who whines "She asked for it, look how she was dressed".

Blaming the victim when you are unable to be civilized doesn't fly.

Dew


Dear Tim:

You say that you were a "catholic," but if you do not believe in the Christian
God (I suppose that means the God of the Bible) and publicly state this,
you are in all probability not a Roman Catholic.  "Public heretics, even
those who err in good faith (material heretics), do not belong to the body
of the Church" (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 1960, Ludwig Ott, p. 311).

All is not lost, however, as you still might belong spiritually to the
Church by your desire to belong to it.  As you said, only God can judge
the condition of a man's soul.  About judgment, on the other hand, St. Paul
1 Cor 5:12) urges Christians to judge their fellow Christians.
Following the Apostle's teaching, I judge that you should reconsider
returning to the Christian fold and embrace the God of Abraham, Isaac,
and Jacob.  He is the God who lives.

Concerning what you were told about non-believers when you were a catholic,
that is true.  As I have posted before, Vatican II (Lumen Gentium, II,
n. 16) teaches: "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know
the Gospel of Christ or His Chruch, but who nevertheless seek God with a
sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will
as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may
achieve eternal salvation."

Responding to your solicitation for opinions on the thinking processes
of God, the best I can do is refer you to Scripture.  Scripture is one
of the best sources for learning what can be known about God.

Stick with the best.
--
boundary, the catechist


It depends.  If you can get your old veterans cheap, and if they can perform
at a higher level than your young talent can *now*, why not the talent
develop in the minors while giving the fans some familiar names to cheer.
If the veterans are gone in a year or two -- that should be just about right.

Open question -- which was more important to the expansion clubs, the expansion
draft or the regular draft.  (They've had one of each, I think.)
--
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic


Outbreaks of a chronic-mono-like entity were originally called EBS (or
some variant thereof) because most of the people with this disease had
elevated levels of antibodies to the EBV virus. But not all of them
did, which prompted an official renaming of the disease to Chronic
Fatigue Syndrome (this renaming took place in the Annals of Internal
Medicine, Jan. 1988, I believe). Now it's also called Chronic Fatigue
and Immune Dysfunction Syndrome (CFIDS), since it seems clear that
some sort of immune disregulation is causing the probs.

Astonishly, there are still docs who tell people with massively
swollen glands, recurrent fevers and nightsweats, etc., that there's
nothing wrong with them. This is not the same thing as saying that the
syndrome may have a (at least partly) psychological cause. The
disagreement among people whose thoughts are worth considering centers
on just what the cause is. No one knows, but theories include:
psychological stress, some sort of virus (a retrovirus, say most --
maybe one of the newly discovered herpes viruses), environmental
toxins, bacteria (and, yes, candida), genes, (and/)or some combo of
these.

There's no outright cure at the moment, but different docs try
different things, some of which seem to help.

Massive amounts of info on the condition are available these days.
Post your Q to alt.med.cfs, and you will be flooded w/facts.


I'm all in favor of drug legalization, but I do see some problems with
it. My hope is that people disposed to doing so would simply overdose
quickly, and be done with it, before making a mess of thisgs.


Deion Sanders hit a home run in his only AB today.  Nixon was 1 for 4.  Infield
single.  Deion's batting over .400 Nixon: around .200.   Whom would YOU start?
Wise up, Bobby.

See y'all at the ballyard
Go Braves
Chop Chop

Michael Mule'


Are you saying that the Indians who became Christians did so because the
US Army marched them into church at gunpoint?

This will be news to the Indians of the Great Lakes and upper Mississippi
basin-- of the Southwest-- of Mexico and South America-- who converted even
before there was such a thing as the US.  Are you saying that Indians are
incapable of coming to a decision themselves about their religion without
being forced to at gunpoint?  What about the Christian Cherokees who were
given the boot by the US government after the Civil War... because the
Cherokee nation gave mild support to the Confederacy, since they themselves
owned black slaves.  No, reducing it all to a matter of religion is to
support a much too narrow view of history.


Can we use murder instead of copyright violation, just to keep things
straight?  The 5th applies only to criminal cases which copyright
infringements are not (they are civil).

Steve

P.S. I'm sorry to waste bandwidth on a quibble, I just don't want
anyone to get confused.  I think a bunch of kiddie porn GIFs make
a better test case than a bunch of Peanuts strips and that IS criminal
both in posession and distribution.


you Need gs252ini.zip and 24*.zip, and 25*.zip font files. You can get these
from  wuarchive.wustl.edu /mirrors/msdos/postscript. I also advice you to get
gs252gui.zip from CICA. It is a nice interface for ghostscript. Ghostscript is
very user unfriendly. This interface makes it user friendly. For using this
interface you have to get vbrun100.dll (from risc.ua.edu /pub/network/misc)
copy this to your windows directory. Copy gui executables and other files to
your ghostscript directory. And anter the line below to your autoexec.bat.

SET GS_LIB=C:\<your ghostscript and gui directory>

Now you are ready to use it. Enjoy it.

-
-
--
____________________________________________________________________________
****************************************************************************


The Armenians were deeply anti-semitic as well. In the May 10, 1936
edition of 'Hairenik Weekly' the vice-mayor of Bucharest, Rumania is
quoted as saying:

"The Armenians helped us not to become the slaves of the Jewish
 elements in our country."

"And the type of Jew who is imported to Palestine...is not anything
 to be proud about. Their loose morals, and other vices were
 unknown to the Arabs prior to Balfour Declaration, on top of
 all communist activities were the cause of most of the Arab
 criticism."[1]

As Uzun exposed, the Armenians were fascist. Before Pearl Harbor,
the Dashnak daily 'Hairenik' (not to be confused with the Tzeghagrons
'Hairenik Weekly') expressed pro-Nazi sentiments:

"And came Adolf Hitler, after herculean struggles. He spoke
 to the racial heart strings of the German, opened the
 fountain of his national genius, strock down the spirit
 of defeatism...At no period since the World War had Berlin
 conducted so realistic, well organized, and planned policy
 as now, since Hitler's assumption to power...And whatever
 others may think concerning Hitlerism and Fascism as a
 system of Government, it is proved that they have revitalized
 and regenerated the two states, Germany and Italy."[2]

[1] Captain George Haig, 'The Case of Palestine,' in Hairenik
    Weekly, Friday, September 25, 1936.
[2] 'Hairenik,' official organ of the Dashnaktsuitune, Sept.
    17, 1936; quoted in John Roy Carlson, 'The Armenian Displaced
    Persons' (see endnote 1), p. 21.

Serdar Argic


Isn't that interesting?!  In the Jewish tradition you are incredibly
wrong!  They originate in the Torah and with Jewish ancestors,
specifically the Patriarch Abraham (z"l).  That knowledge was sent East
to India and China when Abraham gave "gifts" (the commentators to Jewish
scripture say this was the knowledge of the occult arts) to all the rest
of his children when he sent them away to the East.  This assured that
Isaac only, who remained with Abraham, would inherit his most important
spiritual gifts, what eventually became Judaism.

So you see, other religions can have very parochial views too.  By the
Jewish view, you are very mistaken, your scripture are not scripture,
your gods are not gods, your practices a jumble of errors that lead
people to idol worship and away from God.  That doesn't stop us from
respecting you to the extent of not trying to convert you or proselytize
you and being willing to dialog in a respectful manner.  We're content
to let you live the way you care to live as long as you leave us be.  We
are happy to co-exist as long as you give us the same right.

But your incredible rudeness and violent nature seems to preclude that.
Too bad.  Is this typical of your religion?

You are a most presumptuous fellow!  How dare you presume that the
"typical" New Ager doesn't acknowledge God and is selfish.  What trite,
self-righteous, ego-ful garbage!  There are Buddhists, Christians, Jews,
and those of many other religions here on this newsgroups for whom your
words are simple slander.

Of course, from the Jewish perspective you are incredibly wrong.  We'd
say that there is no "godhead" -- just created beings who may be
enjoying a good laugh at your expense.

So not only are we selfish, we are also thieves and liars!  And you
expect any of us to pay attention to you and your "religion?"  Why not
call us more name?   Maybe then we'll all convert in gratefullness!

You delude yourself.


We need a good concave ->convex polygon conversion routine.
I've tried a couple without much luck.  Please E-mail responses and I
will post a summary of any replies.  Thank you.


Not so.  If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled, do you
blame the tiger?


: Is there a fix for this? We have a Quadra 900 that will NOT finish startup
: unless there is a monitor connected. This would be no problem, but since
: we're running it as a file server, there is no need to have a monitor
: connected all the time.

I've seen a control panel made for this. I don't remember the name, where I
saw it, or on what Quadra models it will work. But I do know it exists :)

/Mats


Awhile back someone posted some information on where you can get
kits to build an EEG.  Does anyone remember where you could get
this.  I'm very interested in getting some info on this.  Thanks
in advance.

eric


You definetly are in need of a shrink, loser!


Pity you didn't say something about the use of statistics to justify
targeting and persecuting a minority, then.

What in the Tree makes you think we queers CAN'T experience that commitment?
What's stopping us from committing to one partner for the rest of our lives?
I have every intention of doing so, once I find the right person...and
whether that person is male or female, I seriously doubt that a church
ceremony/public vow/licence will make any difference whatsoever in the sort
of commitment I experience with that person.  You have no conception of the
difference marriage makes since you have never known any other way.

You're getting to the right idea here...just be careful of making statements
like the above, and you'll be part of the solution and not the problem.

No flames necessary. :)

Drywid


ZOROASTRIANISM
SAN JOSE, CA, USA
Monday April 5, 1993
San Jose Mercury News, Page 1
     [Reproduced without permission]

_3,700-year tradition still glows -
           'Assimilation in U.S. threatens ancient Zoroastrian religion'_

By Jeanne Huber, Mercury News Staff Writer

   HIGH ON A HILLSIDE above San Jose, flames leap up 24 hours a day from a
gleaming brass urn in a temple - one of only four in the United States -
dedicated to one of the world's most ancient religions.

   With the flames go the prayers of about 1,200 Bay Area Zoroastrians that
their faith will survive this land.

   "There is a fear - a real fear, too," said Silloo Tarapore of Lafayette.
"We have one generation to do it or to die."

   Many immigrant groups struggle to maintain an identity in a strange land.
But for Zoroastrians, it is an especially poignant concern.

   Their religion has been around for perhaps 3,700 years, a heritage so deep
it scarcely seems comprehensible in a state where "historical sites" are
sometimes less than 100 years old.  It was the religion of the great Persian
Empire under kings Cyrus and Darius.  And tradition says that when Christ
was born about 500 years later, he was honored by a visit from three
Zoroastrian priests, the Magi.  Scholars say many key beliefs of Christians,
Jews and Muslims can be traced to the teachings of Zoroaster, the
Zoroastrian prophet.

   Yet, with only about 150,000 Zoroastrians in the entire world, they are
a miniscule minority in every country in which they live.  Survival as a
people is very much on their minds.

   Ironically, local Zoroastrians fear that the almost unlimited tolerance
of the United States may do what hundreds of years of persecution followed
by nearly 1,000 years of benign religious segregation could not do: cause
their young people to stop thinking of themselves as Zoroastrians.

   Zoroastrians do not believe theirs is the only right religion, and they
actually shun the notion of trying to win converts.  So if their children
become totally assimilated, they say, it's their children - rather than
the world at large - who will be the losers.

   "It's important to have an identity," said Maneck Bhujwaia of San Jose,
a leader among Zoroastrians who came here from India.  "It's important
for everybody - Irish, Scottish, Americans.  It gives meaning to life.
You don't have to depend on the majority community to give you respect.
You can fall back on your own identity."

   For Zoroastrians, there's much to be proud of.

   Their prophet, Zoroaster, seeking to make sense of a culture in which
animal sacrifice to multiple gods was common, preached that there was
only one god, a good one.  Zoroastrians call their god Ahura Mazda, which
translates as Lord of Wisdom and Light.

_Good vs. evil_

   Zoroaster saw life as a constant struggle between good and evil, with
the good eventually winning.  Men and women could join in the battle for
good, he said, and he warned that they would inevitably suffer consequences
such as shame and sorrow if they did wrong.  He preached honesty, charity,
kindness to animals, respect for the environment, hard work, equality of
men and women - basic virtues preached by prophets of many religions.

   But Zoroaster was perhaps unusual in that he told his followers not to
follow him blindly.  He demanded they think for themselves.  In fact,
Joseph Campbell, the famous scholar of the history and meaning of myths,
traced the Western emphasis on individual thought to the Zoroastrians.

   Zoroastrians have many words for thought.  Their motto, leaded into a
stained glass window over the sacred fire at the temple on the slopes of
Mount Hamilton, is "Good thoughts, good words, good deeds."

   So it's not surprising that Zoroastrians value education highly.  In India,
where a contingent of Zoroastrians arrived in the ninth century to escape
persecution by Muslims in Iran, Zoroastrians claim 100 percent literacy;
the overall statistic in India is just 60 percent.

   About half of the Bay Area Zoroastrian community came here from India
and Pakistan, mostly to study at universities.  The other half fled from
Iran after the 1979 revolution made that a fundamentalist Islamic state
where others had no rights.

   Local Zoroastrians point with pride to ways their emphasis on "good
deeds" has improved life in every country they inhabit.  In San Jose,
the recent restoration of the Hotel Sainte Clarie came about because
Manou Mobedshahi, a San Francisco-based hotelier, passed the boarded-up
downtown landmark on his way to and from the temple.  At the temple's
dedication, the chief guest of honor was the mother of Zubin Mehta, the
Zoroastrian conductor of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra.

   The temple exists because of another good deed: the decision by an
Iranian emigre, the late Arbab Rustom Guiv, to buy land for six temples
in North America.  Besides the 10-acre site off Crothers Road on Mount
Hamilton, he paid for land in Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, Toronto,
and Vancouver.  Until his gifts, there were no Zoroastrian temples on
this continent.

   Local Zoroastrians raised money to build the actual temple, and the
property already had a large house that they have converted to a
community center.

   The temple, dedicated a year ago on the birthday of the prophet
Zoroaster, is a simple structure with gleaming white walls, vaulted
ceilings and oak floors, partially covered with huge Oriental carpets.

   Its central feature is the fire, set in the middle of a partly-glassed-
in area at the center of the building.  Although Zoroastrians are
sometimes called "fire worshippers," they actually consider fire just
a symbol of God.  "It helps us concentrate, just like Christians use the
cross and Muslims use the Holy Book," Bhujwala said.

   The biggest celebration of the years occurs in early spring.  For all
Iranians, including Zoroastrians, the New Year begins on the first day of
the season because of its symbolism as the start of new life.  With
Zoroaster's birthday just six days later, the combination of religious
and secular holidays creates something on par with what most of the
United States celebrates between Christmas and Jan. 1.

  For this year's celebration of the prophet's birthday, about 500 people
came to worship and revel.

   "The good things in life are not forbidden," Esfandiar Anoushiravani,
a leader of the Iranian members, had said beforehand, and what followed
proved him right.

   Inside the temple, worshipers filled every chair and sat or stood
around the edges of the room as about a half-dozen priests chanted
thanksgiving prayers around a table laden with braziers of smoking
sandalwood, glasses of milk and water, and a tray heaped with dried fruit
and nuts.

   Kids crowded around, grabbing handfuls of the treats.  "People eat the
fruit," Tarapore said.  "It's a way to participate in the ceremony."

_Santa Claus, sort of_

   The gathering even had a Santa Claus, Iranian style.  With flowing white
hair and a bag of gifts for the children, this Amownaroz wore green
symbolic of spring) and red.

   He was ushed in by a sort of spring clown, Hajefyrouz, who danced and
played a tambourine.

   The Zoroastrians from India were charmed.  "This is all new for us, too,"
one told a visitor who asked what was going on.

   A visitor, John A. Sabanovich of Folsom, said he became intrigued with
the religion years ago while on business trips to Iran.  Zoroastrians have
no procedure for accepting converts - a result, some say, of their
centuries of persecution in Iran followed by their promise to the Hindu
king who allowed them into India that they would not interfere with his
people's religion.

   But that does not stop Sabavich from joining in the celebrations at the
San Jose temple whenever he can.

   "When I first heard about this religion," he said, "I thought, my God,
this is what a religion should be.  They think for themselves and do good.

   "People who don't have a tradition, something to lean on, what's the
difference with the lower animals?"


Archive-name: space/groups
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:08 $

SPACE ACTIVIST/INTEREST/RESEARCH GROUPS AND SPACE PUBLICATIONS

    GROUPS

    AIA -- Aerospace Industry Association. Professional group, with primary
	membership of major aerospace firms. Headquartered in the DC area.
	Acts as the "voice of the aerospace industry" -- and it's opinions
	are usually backed up by reams of analyses and the reputations of
	the firms in AIA.

	    [address needed]

    AIAA -- American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics.
	Professional association, with somewhere about 30,000-40,000
	members. 65 local chapters around the country -- largest chapters
	are DC area (3000 members), LA (2100 members), San Francisco (2000
	members), Seattle/NW (1500), Houston (1200) and Orange County
	(1200), plus student chapters. Not a union, but acts to represent
	aviation and space professionals (engineers, managers, financial
	types) nationwide. Holds over 30 conferences a year on space and
	aviation topics publishes technical Journals (Aerospace Journal,
	Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets, etc.), technical reference books
	and is _THE_ source on current aerospace state of the art through
	their published papers and proceedings. Also offers continuing
	education classes on aerospace design. Has over 60 technical
	committees, and over 30 committees for industry standards. AIAA acts
	as a professional society -- offers a centralized resume/jobs
	function, provides classes on job search, offers low-cost health and
	life insurance, and lobbies for appropriate legislation (AIAA was
	one of the major organizations pushing for IRAs - Individual
	Retirement Accounts). Very active public policy arm -- works
	directly with the media, congress and government agencies as a
	legislative liaison and clearinghouse for inquiries about aerospace
	technology technical issues. Reasonably non-partisan, in that they
	represent the industry as a whole, and not a single company,
	organization, or viewpoint.

	Membership $70/yr (student memberships are less).

	American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
	The Aerospace Center
	370 L'Enfant Promenade, SW
	Washington, DC 20077-0820
	(202)-646-7400

    AMSAT - develops small satellites (since the 1960s) for a variety of
	uses by amateur radio enthusiasts. Has various publications,
	supplies QuickTrak satellite tracking software for PC/Mac/Amiga etc.

	Amateur Satellite Corporation (AMSAT)
	P.O. Box 27
	Washington, DC 20044
	(301)-589-6062

    ASERA - Australian Space Engineering and Research Association. An
	Australian non-profit organisation to coordinate, promote, and
	conduct space R&D projects in Australia, involving both Australian
	and international (primarily university) collaborators. Activities
	include the development of sounding rockets, small satellites
	(especially microsatellites), high-altitude research balloons, and
	appropriate payloads. Provides student projects at all levels, and
	is open to any person or organisation interested in participating.
	Publishes a monthly newsletter and a quarterly technical journal.

	Membership $A100 (dual subscription)
	Subscriptions $A25 (newsletter only) $A50 (journal only)

	ASERA Ltd
	PO Box 184
	Ryde, NSW, Australia, 2112
	email: lindley@syd.dit.csiro.au

    BIS - British Interplanetary Society. Probably the oldest pro-space
	group, BIS publishes two excellent journals: _Spaceflight_, covering
	current space activities, and the _Journal of the BIS_, containing
	technical papers on space activities from near-term space probes to
	interstellar missions. BIS has published a design study for an
	interstellar probe called _Daedalus_.

	British Interplanetary Society
	27/29 South Lambeth Road
	London SW8 1SZ
	ENGLAND

	No dues information available at present.

    ISU - International Space University. ISU is a non-profit international
	graduate-level educational institution dedicated to promoting the
	peaceful exploration and development of space through multi-cultural
	and multi-disciplinary space education and research. For further
	information on ISU's summer session program or Permanent Campus
	activities please send messages to 'information@isu.isunet.edu' or
	contact the ISU Executive Offices at:

	International Space University
	955 Massachusetts Avenue 7th Floor
	Cambridge, MA 02139
	(617)-354-1987 (phone)
	(617)-354-7666 (fax)

    L-5 Society (defunct). Founded by Keith and Carolyn Henson in 1975 to
	advocate space colonization. Its major success was in preventing US
	participation in the UN "Moon Treaty" in the late 1970s. Merged with
	the National Space Institute in 1987, forming the National Space
	Society.

    NSC - National Space Club. Open for general membership, but not well
	known at all. Primarily comprised of professionals in aerospace
	industry. Acts as information conduit and social gathering group.
	Active in DC, with a chapter in LA. Monthly meetings with invited
	speakers who are "heavy hitters" in the field. Annual "Outlook on
	Space" conference is _the_ definitive source of data on government
	annual planning for space programs. Cheap membership (approx
	$20/yr).

	    [address needed]

    NSS - the National Space Society. NSS is a pro-space group distinguished
	by its network of local chapters. Supports a general agenda of space
	development and man-in-space, including the NASA space station.
	Publishes _Ad Astra_, a monthly glossy magazine, and runs Shuttle
	launch tours and Space Hotline telephone services. A major sponsor
	of the annual space development conference. Associated with
	Spacecause and Spacepac, political lobbying organizations.

	Membership $18 (youth/senior) $35 (regular).

	National Space Society
	Membership Department
	922 Pennsylvania Avenue, S.E.
	Washington, DC 20003-2140
	(202)-543-1900

    Planetary Society - founded by Carl Sagan. The largest space advocacy
	group. Publishes _Planetary Report_, a monthly glossy, and has
	supported SETI hardware development financially. Agenda is primarily
	support of space science, recently amended to include an
	international manned mission to Mars.

	The Planetary Society
	65 North Catalina Avenue
	Pasadena, CA 91106

	Membership $35/year.

    SSI - the Space Studies Institute, founded by Dr. Gerard O'Neill.
	Physicist Freeman Dyson took over the Presidency of SSI after
	O'Neill's death in 1992. Publishes _SSI Update_, a bimonthly
	newsletter describing work-in-progress. Conducts a research program
	including mass-drivers, lunar mining processes and simulants,
	composites from lunar materials, solar power satellites. Runs the
	biennial Princeton Conference on Space Manufacturing.

	Membership $25/year. Senior Associates ($100/year and up) fund most
	    SSI research.

	Space Studies Institute
	258 Rosedale Road
	PO Box 82
	Princeton, NJ 08540

    SEDS - Students for the Exploration and Development of Space. Founded in
	1980 at MIT and Princeton. SEDS is a chapter-based pro-space
	organization at high schools and universities around the world.
	Entirely student run. Each chapter is independent and coordinates
	its own local activities. Nationally, SEDS runs a scholarship
	competition, design contests, and holds an annual international
	conference and meeting in late summer.

	Students for the Exploration and Development of Space
	MIT Room W20-445
	77 Massachusetts Avenue
	Cambridge, MA  02139
	(617)-253-8897
	email: odyssey@athena.mit.edu

	Dues determined by local chapter.

    SPACECAUSE -  A political lobbying organization and part of the NSS
	Family of Organizations. Publishes a bi-monthly newsletter,
	Spacecause News. Annual dues is $25. Members also receive a discount
	on _The Space Activist's Handbook_. Activities to support pro-space
	legislation include meeting with political leaders and interacting
	with legislative staff. Spacecause primarily operates in the
	legislative process.

	National Office			West Coast Office
	Spacecause			Spacecause
	922 Pennsylvania Ave. SE	3435 Ocean Park Blvd.
	Washington, D.C. 20003		Suite 201-S
	(202)-543-1900			Santa Monica, CA 90405

    SPACEPAC - A political action committee and part of the NSS Family of
	Organizations. Spacepac researches issues, policies, and candidates.
	Each year, updates _The Space Activist's Handbook_. Current Handbook
	price is $25. While Spacepac does not have a membership, it does
	have regional contacts to coordinate local activity. Spacepac
	primarily operates in the election process, contributing money and
	volunteers to pro-space candidates.

	Spacepac
	922 Pennsylvania Ave. SE
	Washington, DC 20003
	(202)-543-1900

    UNITED STATES SPACE FOUNDATION - a public, non-profit organization
	supported by member donations and dedicated to promoting
	international education, understanding and support of space. The
	group hosts an annual conference for teachers and others interested
	in education. Other projects include developing lesson plans that
	use space to teach other basic skills such as reading. Publishes
	"Spacewatch," a monthly B&W glossy magazine of USSF events and
	general space news. Annual dues:

		Charter		$50 ($100 first year)
		Individual	$35
		Teacher		$29
		College student $20
		HS/Jr. High	$10
		Elementary	 $5
		Founder &     $1000+
		    Life Member

	United States Space Foundation
	PO Box 1838
	Colorado Springs, CO 80901
	(719)-550-1000

    WORLD SPACE FOUNDATION - has been designing and building a solar-sail
    spacecraft for longer than any similar group; many JPL employees lend
    their talents to this project. WSF also provides partial funding for the
    Palomar Sky Survey, an extremely successful search for near-Earth
    asteroids. Publishes *Foundation News* and *Foundation Astronautics
    Notebook*, each a quarterly 4-8 page newsletter. Contributing Associate,
    minimum of $15/year (but more money always welcome to support projects).

	World Space Foundation
	Post Office Box Y
	South Pasadena, California 91301

    PUBLICATIONS

    Aerospace Daily (McGraw-Hill)
	Very good coverage of aerospace and space issues. Approx. $1400/yr.

    Air & Space / Smithsonian (bimonthly magazine)
	Box 53261
	Boulder, CO 80332-3261
	$18/year US, $24/year international

    ESA - The European Space Agency publishes a variety of periodicals,
	generally available free of charge. A document describing them in
	more detail is in the Ames SPACE archive in
	pub/SPACE/FAQ/ESAPublications.

    Final Frontier (mass-market bimonthly magazine) - history, book reviews,
	general-interest articles (e.g. "The 7 Wonders of the Solar System",
	"Everything you always wanted to know about military space
	programs", etc.)

	Final Frontier Publishing Co.
	PO Box 534
	Mt. Morris, IL 61054-7852
	$14.95/year US, $19.95 Canada, $23.95 elsewhere

    Space News (weekly magazine) - covers US civil and military space
	programs. Said to have good political and business but spotty
	technical coverage.

	Space News
	Springfield VA 22159-0500
	(703)-642-7330
	$75/year, may have discounts for NSS/SSI members

    Journal of the Astronautical Sciences and Space Times - publications of
	the American Astronautical Society. No details.

	AAS Business Office
	6352 Rolling Mill Place, Suite #102
	Springfield, VA 22152
	(703)-866-0020

    GPS World (semi-monthly) - reports on current and new uses of GPS, news
	and analysis of the system and policies affecting it, and technical
	and product issues shaping GPS applications.

	GPS World
	859 Willamette St.
	P.O. Box 10460
	Eugene, OR 97440-2460
	(503)-343-1200

	Free to qualified individuals; write for free sample copy.

    Innovation (Space Technology) -- Free. Published by the NASA Office of
	Advanced Concepts and Technology. A revised version of the NASA
	Office of Commercial Programs newsletter.

    Planetary Encounter - in-depth technical coverage of planetary missions,
	with diagrams, lists of experiments, interviews with people directly
	involved.
    World Spaceflight News - in-depth technical coverage of near-Earth
	spaceflight. Mostly covers the shuttle: payload manifests, activity
	schedules, and post-mission assessment reports for every mission.

	Box 98
	Sewell, NJ 08080
	$30/year US/Canada
	$45/year elsewhere

    Space (bi-monthly magazine)
	British aerospace trade journal. Very good. $75/year.

    Space Calendar (weekly newsletter)

    Space Daily/Space Fax Daily  (newsletter)
	Short (1 paragraph) news notes. Available online for a fee
	(unknown).

    Space Technology Investor/Commercial Space News -- irregular Internet
	column on aspects of commercial space business. Free. Also limited
	fax and paper edition.

	    P.O. Box 2452
	    Seal Beach, CA 90740-1452.

    All the following are published by:

	Phillips Business Information, Inc.
	7811 Montrose Road
	Potomac, MC 20854

	Aerospace Financial News - $595/year.
	Defense Daily - Very good coverage of space and defense issues.
	    $1395/year.
	Space Business News (bi-weekly) - Very good overview of space
	    business activities. $497/year.
	Space Exploration Technology (bi-weekly) - $495/year.
	Space Station News (bi-weekly) - $497/year.

    UNDOCUMENTED GROUPS

	Anyone who would care to write up descriptions of the following
	groups (or others not mentioned) for inclusion in the answer is
	encouraged to do so.

	AAS - American Astronautical Society
	Other groups not mentioned above


I am told (by the person who I care a lot about and who I am worried
is going to start putting his health and money into homeopathy without
really knowing what he is getting into and who is the reason I posted
in the first place about homeopathy) that in Britain homeopathy is
available on the National Health Service and that there are about 6000
GPs who use homeopathic practices. True? False? What?

Have there been any important and documented investigations into
homeopathic principles?

I was reading a book on homeopathy over the weekend. I turned to the
section on the principles behind homeopathic medicine, and two
paragraphs informed me that homeopaths don't feel obliged to provide
any sort of explanation. The author stated this with pride, as though
it were some sort of virtue! Why am I sceptical about homeopathy? Is
it because I am a narrow-minded bigot, or is it because homeopathy
really looks more like witch-doctory than anything else?


Greetings!

Steve Summers and the Chief were on 48 Hours last night shmoozing
sports.  I unfortunately missed it.  Those of you who saw it, can
you please provide a synopsis.

Thanx.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Czar of Mainframe Computing <JBE5@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
McGill University

---> I'M TOO SEXY FOR COBOL.

---> Habs...it doesn't look good!

---> Let's Go Expos!
                ======================================
                | Peter Peter Pumkin Eater,          |
                | Knew a chick but couldn't meet her.|
                | Saw her brother one fine day,      |
                | Sucked his cock now he's gay!      |
                |           --Andrew Dice Clay       |
                ======================================


*FOR SALE*

Compudyne 386-25SXL Laptop
80 meg HD
4 meg RAM
3.5" FD
VGA Monochrome 64 Grey Scale

+Math Coprocessor!

Asking $1500, or best offer.  Must sell soon.

**Do not reply to this email address**

Call Johnny at 312/856-1767
Email:  phd_cz@gsbacd.uchicago.edu


I am looking for an inexpensive vlb card, and have yet to run across any
real reviews of them. One of the cards the local stores are pushing is
the Genoa 8500 for $125-140. Apparently it uses a Cirrus Logic acc. chip,
but I don't know which one (GD5426?). One of the shops I've spoken with
claims the card out-performs the Diamond Stealth 24 vl and the Orchid
Fahrenheit 1280 plus vl cards (S3 86C805 based), but that can't be true
if it is using the GD5426. I like the price of the Genoa 8500, but if it
lags in performance behind the S3 cards, I'll pay the extra $50 for one
of them.

Any info. on low end vlb cards would be appreciated. If I get replies via
email, I'll post summary info. if anyone else is interested.


Great.  This site is a complete shadow of the Signetics BBS 8051 directory.

Thanks Brian,
--
Mont Pierce


John 12:24-26: "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat
falls onto the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it
produces much grain.
  "He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in
this world will keep it for eternal life.
  "If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My
servant will be also.  If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor."

Why would I want an eternal life if I hate this one?

If we were created by a deity, why would that deity not wish us to
enjoy what he has given us?

Why would I want to live forever?  The challenge in my life is that I
will die, and that I must give my life the meaning I wish it to have
before that happens.  My time is here and will someday pass; I will be
content to live on in the memories of my friends, and once they too
are dead, then I will no longer have any reason to exist.

In short: even if your deity *does* exist, that doesn't automatically
mean that I would worship it.  I am content to live my own life, and
fend for myself, so when I die, I can be proud of the fact that no
matter where I end up, it will be because of *my* actions and *my* choices.

If your god decides to toss me into a flaming pit for this, then so be
it.  I would much rather just cease to exist.  But if your god wants
my respect and my obedience, then it had better earn these; and if it
does, then they will be very strong and true.

Jesus wasn't the only one who rose from the dead -- I think it was
Osiris who did the same, as well as a few characters from Greek or
Norse legend, if memory serves.

But still: WHY would I want to rise from the dead?  Why do *you* want to?

If your god wants to win my devotion, then it knows what it can do --
provide some way for me to believe without having to resort to blind
faith that could be applied equally well to any religion.

That's precisely it.  I neither see nor know Zeus either, nor Odin.
Shall I offer them the same devotion I offer Jesus?

You've got to understand my point-of-view: I see Christians spouting
Bible verse all the time as if it were some sort of magic spell that
will level all opposition.  Truth is, it's not.  Robert has never
demonstrated that he actually understands what the verses imply; he
just rattles them off day by day.  Some brazenly fly in the face of
common sense and reality, and I point these out where I can.

But even more than that, even when Christians *do* try to explain the
verses in their own words, they do so from a Christian point of view,
which is that every human being would want to be a Christian if only
he or she understood the Christian message properly, and then all
strife and suffering on the earth would end.  Here's the problem with
that: substitute "Moslem" or "Buddhist" or "Satanist" instead of
"Christian", and it means the same thing.

Christanity is a very nice belief set around a very nice book.  But if
you want to make me believe that it has any bearing on the REAL WORLD,
you've got some convincing to do.

And in my opinion, you're bumbling about blindly making up entities
where there aren't any, and depriving yourself of a true understanding
and enjoyment of your life.  As long as you keep your beliefs to
yourself, I'll keep my beliefs to myself -- but as soon as you start
waving them around, expect me to toss in my opinions, too.


You seem to be assuming that all arrests are of equal value, and that
the use of wiretaps is spread uniformly among them.


I just noticed that my halogen table lamp runs off 12 Volts.
The big thinngy that plugs into the wall says 12 Volts DC,  20mA

The question is: Can I trickle charge the battery on my CB650
with it?

I don't know the rating of the battery, but it is a factory
intalled one.

Thanks,
Sanjay

--
   '81 CB650 						DoD #1224


I find this method much better myself, too, although I do really
hate it when the bolt finally comes loose and the wrench and my
hand both come crashing into my face.  After coming to, which is
about 15 minutes later, I change my clothes (because by this time
all the oil has drained *on* me), and ice my entire face and suck
down about 20 Tylenol to ease the pain.  Later in the day I then
proceed with refilling the engine oil.

It's just crazy how I try and change the oil on my cars in one
weekend---I go through about 3 bottles of Tylenol and 2 bags of ice.


The Hawks won the Norris div, and sealed their fate.  It's bad luck
to win the Norris.  The Hawks will sweep the Blues in their dreams but will
lose in 6 in reality.  I predict that in the 6 game with the Blues Belfour
will go down on his knees 7000 time s and will spend the rest of the time
looking behind him self.  Butcher will pound Roenick and The warthawks have
no one tough enough to prevent it


In the UIBM PC world, how much of a "standard" has VESA become for
SVGA graphics?  I know there are lots of graphics-board companies out
there, as well as several graphics chips manufacturers- are they adhering to
the VESA standard, and what effect is/will the VESA Local Bus have on all
of this?
Anyone?


If you bought your IDE drive from a dealer, you shouldn 't have to
perform a low level format. Even if the 1st HD is already partitioned
into C and D, FDISK will automatically assign the 2 nd HD to D and
change the 2nd partition of 1st drive to E.


I have to disagree with this.  I have a 92 Z28 with a 350 and a 4-speed auto
w/ overdrive, and it is really better that way.  Chevy autos are reknowned
for their long life and ability to handle copious amount of power.  I live
in the Dallas area, and a manual would be much harder to drive in the traffic
here.  Now if I still lived out in the sticks like I used to, a manual would be
more fun.

Safety-wise, an auto is less distracting...I would hate to have to be
shifting gears while I was trying to ease into traffic in the freeways here.
Performance-wise, I can hold my own against any stock 5.0 Mustang or 5.0
Camaro w/ a five speed.

All of this IMHO... :)


I have 2 New and 2 slightly used SyQuest 44M cartridge forsale.
Asking $230 for all of them and shipping is included.


I am in charge of purchasing some computer software for a small office and I
have a few question about Microsoft's Office Pack.

1)  I was wondering, are the programs that are packaged with the Office
Pack--WinWord, Power Point, Excel, and ccMail--complete and the latest
addition?

2) Are the programs "hobbled" in any way?

3) Can we update single programs at a latter date ( i.e. from Excel 4.0 to
Excel 5) ?

4) Do you receive all of the necessary disks and documentation?

5) Is there anything that I should be aware of that makes the Office Package
less of deal that it seems?

Sorry if I seem skeptical put the price for the Office Package--$439.39 on the
street--sounds like a great deal for the office that is purchasing its first
computer and software.  But all four complete programs for less than $450
makes me just a little suspicious.  Maybe its just me.

Thanks for your help in advance

Kirt Wilson
Northwestern University

-------------------------------


  I answer from the position that we would indeed place these people
  in prison for life.

  That depends not only on their predisposition towards murder, but
  also in their success rate at escape and therefore their ability
  to commit the same crimes again.

  In other words, if lifetime imprisonment doesn't work, perhaps
  it's not because we're not executing these people, but because
  we're not being careful enough about how we lock them up.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.


And that, of course, is the point.   You can't simply divide the
world into atheists and non-atheists on the basis of god-belief.

If all you care about is belief in a supernatural deity, and
have nothing to say about behaviour, then belief in a supernatural
being is your criterion.

But once you start talking about behaviour, then someone's suscept-
ibility to be led by bad people into doing bad things is what you
are - I assume - worried about.

And in that area, what you care about is whether someone is sceptical,
critical and autonomous on the one hand, or gullible, excitable and
easily led on the other.

I would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates
that a person is easily led.   Whether they have a worship or belief
in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be
beside the point.


Just as a matter of interest, a self-promo computer graphics sequence
that one of the local TV stations used to play quite a lot a couple of
years ago showed a 3D flyover of Australia from the West coast to the
East.  The clouds were quite recognisable as fuzzy, flat, white
Mandlebrot sets!!


hmm - i thought francesca's predictions ALWAYS hovered at or below
 .500, especially in the nfl.  (not counting college football
 bowl day).

he's a nice analyst for explaining past tense, and for mapping out
 what plays teams might do - but for predicting the future, he only
 looks good whne compared to russo.


cjackson> I am very glad to know that none of you judgemental little shits has
cjackson> ridden/driven when too tired, sleepy, hungover, angry, or distracted
cjackson> in the last 3 years. Why, if you had then you might be just as guilty

Some of us not-so judgmental little shits don't drive/ride when we're
impaired.  I stopped doing that sort of thing when a good friend of
mine got killed by a drunk driver who failed to stop for a red and
drove through the side of her volvo in his '72 caddy.

Then again, I suspect most of the responsible adults on the net don't
bother posting in flame wars on rec.moto.

cjackson> "There is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom
cjackson>  in the guise of public safety." -- Thomas Jefferson

He also owned slaves, kept some as forced concubines, and had enough
resources to do what he wanted without fear of reprisal.  Then again,
he also smoked dope.


No, Caleb, it's not the quality of ESPN that I have a problem with;
it is superb, whereas it did not evolve beyond the point where ESPN
left off when hockey went to SC (this is excepting SC's use of feeds
from CBC (-;).  It's the amount of hockey they're showing, or lack
of it, that we're complaining about.  They had rights to two OT's
that could've been shown on Sunday night after baseball ... and
they had pickup trucks racing through oversized pigpens followed
by Super-8 home movies of old car races (yes, I was checking in
desperation for Canucks-Jets) last night after SportsCenter.

gld


I have written a program and I want to market it.  I would like certain degree
of protection, since my main custmers are individuals and not the
cooperations.   I know laser hole burning method, and hardware key method,
however, my  software is going to cost only $15.00, so I can not afford that.
Also, at this low price I can not afford people make too many copy of my
software. Well, I guess say upto %20 illigal copying is ok by me.

However, I do not want someone to get a copy of PCTools and copy my software.
Off course, I never meant to forbid the true hackers from copying, since they
can develope a better program anyway.

                      With highest regards,
                           Babak   Sehari.


When the Lunar Society's $500M estimate of the cost of a lunar colony was
mentioned at Making Orbit, somebody asked Jerry Pournelle "have you talked
to Bill Gates?".  The answer:  "Yes.  He says that if he were going to
sink that much money into it, he'd want to run it -- and he doesn't have
the time."

(Somebody then asked him about Perot.  Answer:  "Having Ross Perot on your
board may be a bigger problem than not having the money.")


It seems to deter those who are executed from future criminal activity.

Why don't you compare the rates at which blacks and whites commit crimes?
Blacks commit crimes disproportionately, so in a perfectly fair penal
system, blacks would be disproportionately represented.

(Note: black vs. white crime rates is not a racial thing.  It's probably
an economic thing: poor people are more likely to commit crimes, and blacks
are more likely to be poor.  The way to reduce the proportion of minorities
in prison is to increase the wealth of minorities.)


Does anyone have any experience using LCIII with MIDI?  Do they get along OK?
I have heard that the IIvx is not suitable for MIDI, but I have not heard anyon
e say anything definitive about LCIII and MIDI?  If you have had experience, wh
at MIDI interface have you used?  Anyone used Finale software in this setting?
 Please e-mail.  I will summarize.

Thanks,


Okay here is what I have so far:

Have a group (any size, preferibly small, but?) send a human being to the moon,
set up a habitate and have the human(s) spend one earth year on the moon. Does
that mean no resupply or ??

Need to find atleast $1billion for prize money.

Contest open to different classes of participants.

New Mexico State has semi-challenged University of Alaska (any branch) to put a
team together and to do it..
Any other University/College/Institute of Higher Learning wish to make a
counter challenge or challenge another school? Say it here.

I like the idea of having atleast a russian team.

Some prefer using new technology, others old or ..

The basic idea of the New Moon Race is like the Solar Car Race acrossed
Australia.. Atleast in that basic vein of endevour..

Any other suggestions?


That's okay:  it's what all the rest of them who come on here say...

This isn't the guy who was a lawyer was he?  Could you give more info on this
guy (never mind- I'm sure there will be PLENTY of responses to this post, and
it will appear there)

This is true.  Make sure it is true for ALL cases.

Why not both?  ;)

Why not die for a lie?  If you were poverty stricken and alunatic, sounds
perfecetly reasoable to me.  As to whether the societal dregs he had for
followers would be able to tell if he was a liar or not, not necessarily.
Even if he died for what he believed in, this still makes him completely
selfish.  Like us all.  So what's the difference.

People

There is no historical proof of this (see earlier threads).  Besides, he (or at
least his name), have been the cause of enough deaths to make up for whatever
healing he gave.

SIEG HEIL!!

Who is David Koresh?  I am curious.

 	Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the

How does this follow?  Your definition of lunatic (and "disproof" thereof seem
rather... uhhh.. SHAKY)

Good idea.

Naturally, those or not TRUE Christians, right?  ;)

Someone else handle this, I don't know if it's worth it... *sigh*


Report them to your local BBB (Better Business Bureau).


Is there a 768x1024 Trident driver for windows anywere.
This mode is supported by the drivers fo OS/2 but I have
not been able to find it for Windows.

(768x1024 means 768 wide and 1024 high as opposed to 1024x768)

Any help is appreciated.


From Israeline 4/14

Today's MA'ARIV reports that yesterday, following Egyptian
President Hosni Mubarak's meeting with PLO Chief Yasser Arafat and
prominent Palestinian Faisal al-Husseini, the latter said that in
principle, the Palestinians have decided to participate in the
peace talks. Nonetheless, he noted that everything will be decided
upon at the meeting of the Arab foreign ministers in Damascus. The
newspaper also reports that threatening phone calls were recently
made to houses of several of the senior members of the Palestinian
delegation to the peace talks. The threats, in Arabic, demanded
that the delegates not go to Washington to, "sell out the
Palestinian people." One caller threatened, "Should you go, you
will not find your family alive upon your return." The newspaper
states that such phone calls were received, as far as is known, at
the houses of Faisal al-Husseini, Hanan Ashrawi and others.


Want to sell a 1980 MAZDA GLC for $300 or b.o. Excellent working condition. Just
passed inspection. Has a sun roof. No marks on body.
Contact soon kohli@ecs.umass.edu or (413_549-4738.


Despite my trendy, liberal, feminist tendencies and the fact
that I basically agree with what you are saying I will rebut:

The basic question here is "how do I know what I am supposed to do?"
This is true in every situation that comes up. Some people do not
think about it at all and merely follow their impulses. I claim
that is just as dangerous as "following authority". I could site
sexually transmitted diseases, drug abuse, all manner of criminal
activity, the savings and loan scandal, car accidents, eggs thrown
at my house, all are examples of people not "following authority".
I could easily argue that in the evil examples you gave the
problem was a leader not following _his_ authority and doing what
he wanted. Of course, where is the top of the chain? Therein lies
our search.

I don't think it's as simple as you are claiming. "Pressing need" is
ambiguous. Should I recycle or not?

Realize that I have four kids who, despite being very precocious
of course, are very tiring with their constant lack of understanding
the tremendous knowledge I wish to impart to them.

Ahh! An ironic ending.

The irony I was implying in my initial pithy retort to the bumper
sticker cliche "Question Authority" was that I was questioning
the authority of the person telling me to question authority.
It seems there is a certain segment of society that finds meaning
only in being different, only in rebelling, forsaking everything
for the sake of freedom. I question their integrity and fortitude.
There is another freedom that comes from doing a task correctly.
Different people are at different levels of development in different
areas. Part of the challenge of life is to find the right authorities
to follow, we can't know everything about everything. Often
when learning a new skill or subject I will follow the teacher,
perhaps blindly. Only when I have learned enough to ask appropriate
questions should I question him, only when I have developed
my skills enough should I challenge him. Once again, how do I know
when I get to those stages?

If you have to be told to question authority, perhaps you shouldn't.


i'd just like to repeat and emphasize that because someone else is
trying to make you feel horrible and worthless does not mean that you
should feel that way, although that's easier to say than believe
sometimes.  remember, God made you and loves you, so he must think
you're something special.  (excuse the trite language here.)  also,
the bully may just be someone who is mean for no reason -- not out of
intentional mental torture.  has anyone else been harassed?  maybe
they're just not talking about it.

i would have emailed but my reactions weren't fast enough and the post
i'm responding to didn't include your address.  just take courage and
remember that all of us on the net are rooting for you.


DUDE!  Are you nuts?  WFAN is second to none.  Jody Mac's exit was quite a
loss, but if you think Fredericks On The FAN was much of one, you're pretty
skewed.


Hi,
     I just got myself a Gateway 4DX-33V and trying to configure
X11R5 for it.  Has anyone done this before ?  More specifically,
I need a correct Xconfig file entry that is set up for my
graphics card and monitor.  I have a 15" Color CrystalScan 1572FS monitor
and a VESA LOCAL BUS ATI Ultra Pro with 1MB VRAM video card.

Any help will be extremely appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Please send replies to christy@alex.qc.ca


I had a similar reaction to Chinese food but came to a completly different
conclusion. I've eaten Chinese food for ages and never had problems. I went
with some Chinese Malaysian friends to a swanky Chinses rest. and they ordered
lots of stuff I had never seen before. The only thing I can remember of that
meal was the first course, scallops served in the shell with a soy-type sauce.
I thought, "Well, I've only had scallops once and I was sick after but that
could have been a coincidence". That night as I sat on the bathroom floor,
sweating and emptying my stomach the hard way, I decided I would never touch
another scallop. I may not be allergic but I don't want to take the chance.


Here is a story.  I bought a car about two weeks ago.  I finally can
get hold of the previous owner of the car and got all maintanence
history of the car.  In between '91 and '92, the instrument pannel
of the car has been replaced and the odometer also has been reset
to zero.  Therefore, the true meter reading is the reading before
replacement plus current mileage.  That shows 35000 mile difference
comparing to the mileage on the odometer disclosure from.  The
dealer never told me anything about that important story.

I hope that I can return the car with full refund.  Do u think this
is possible?  Does anyone have similar experiences?  Any comments
will be appreciated.  Thanks.


Apparently that last post was a little hasy, since I
called around to more places and got quotes for less
than 600 and 425.  Liability only, of course.

Plus, one palced will give me C7C for my car + liab on the bike for
only 1350 total, which ain't bad at all.

So I won't go with the first place I called, that's
fer sure.


If one is a vegan (a vegetarian taht eats no animal products at at i.e eggs,
milk, cheese, etc., after about 3 years of a vegan diet, you need to start
taking B12 supplements because b12 is found only in animals.) Acutally our
bodies make B12, I think, but our bodies use up our own B12 after 2 or 3
years.
Lacto-oveo vegetarians, like myself, still get B12 through milk products
and eggs, so we don't need supplements.
And If anyone knows more, PLEASE post it.  I'm nearly contridicting myself
with the mish-mash of knowledge I've gleaned.


: Are there significant differences between V2.01 and V2.00 ?
: Thank you for helping

No.  As I recall, the only differences are in the 3ds.set parameters - some
of the defaults have changed slightly.  I'll look when I get home and let
you know, but there isn't enough to actually warrant upgrading.


Here is another way of looking at it.

When we die we are released from the arc of time, and able
to comprehend our lives in toto.  To visit each moment in
time sequentially or all at once, but not able to alter the
actions thoughts or feelings we had/have/will have in this
life.

From that perspective, I posit that all will have direct knowledge
of God, and be able to recognize at each moment of time wether
we were doing what we ought.  That the experience of having
lived a life far from God will be an eternal torment.  That
having lived a life of grace, will be an eternal joy.  That the
resurrection of the body comes not from any physical reconstitution
of our present forms, but knowledge of our present forms by our
fully cognizant souls.

As an Aside:  If we were to be restricted for all time to
our present form, would you opt for immortality?

James Sledd


Rich Thompson posts some blather about the Libertarian Party:

What pray tell do the Libertarians know about winning elections?

Bob

--


From the "JPL Universe"
April 23, 1993

Cosmologist Stephen Hawking tours Lab


   I agree. I also think Roy needs a good kick sometimes...that horrible
4-0 loss to the Capitals last week...yeeeech!

   Here's to Cup #23...this year!

--
Richard J. Rauser        "You have no idea what you're doing."
rauser@sfu.ca            "Oh, don't worry about that. We're professional
WNI                          outlaws - we do this for a living."


CENTERS
[...]
[...]

Sanderson will be on Team Canada, but he'd be out of position as a center.
Although he was drafted as a center and played there as a rookie, Sanderson
scored 46 goals this season as a left wing.


See, there you go again, saying that a moral act is only significant
if it is "voluntary."  Why do you think this?

And anyway, humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts.

You are attaching too many things to the term "moral," I think.
Let's try this:  is it "good" that animals of the same species
don't kill each other.  Or, do you think this is right?

Or do you think that animals are machines, and that nothing they do
is either right nor wrong?

Those weren't arbitrary killings.  They were slayings related to some sort
of mating ritual or whatnot.

Yes it was, but I still don't understand your distinctions.  What
do you mean by "consider?"  Can a small child be moral?  How about
a gorilla?  A dolphin?  A platypus?  Where is the line drawn?  Does
the being need to be self aware?

What *do* you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of
the same species from (arbitrarily) killing each other?  Don't
you find the fact that they don't at all significant?


did you account for depreciation?  i seriously doubt that a taurus
would rack up an extra $4000 in repair costs over 5 years.


Cheap airline ticket to L.A. on April. 21 (tuesday) from Indi. or
   Chicago and return about in 10 - 14 days wanted.


Dogs will chase anything that moves. I have two dogs and they love
chasing me when I ride off. They will also chase any car that passes
, running along the footpath/sidewalk at up to 60kph. They don't
seem to go after trucks though, the size difference must be a factor.

It also works in my favour though, I can exercise them quite easily
by riding 1/2 mile up the road and back a few times.


Is there a FAQ on Cyrix 486DLC? Could anyone please repost it or
email to me, if I missed it? Thanks in advance.

... Alexander Poylisher, Internet: apoylis@inode.com; FidoNet: 1:2603/106


I would be grateful to anyone who knows about an X-windows application
that would emulate HP 2623A graphics in a manner similar to
the way TEK graphics windows are implemented in xterm.
Thanks for you help.


OOPS. My original message died. I'll try again...
I always understood (perhaps wrongly...:)) that the bacteria in our digestive
tracts help us break down the components of milk. Perhaps the normal flora of
the intestine changes as one passes from childhood.
Is there a pathologist or microbiologist in the house?


The primary problem in human nature is a "fragmentation of being."
Humans are in a state of tension, a tension of opposites. Good and
evil are the most thought provoking polarities that come to mind.

The Bible provides us with many examples of the fragmentation of
being. The warring opposites within us are a product of man's
rebellion against God, which is described so vividly in the pages of
the Scriptures.

Man was created with the order to become a god. Those were the words
of St.  Basil in the fourth century. What he was trying to say was
that God created man to be a partaker of the divine nature. In the
Eastern Orthodox Church, this is called "theosis," or "deification."

One can also say that man was created to be whole, i.e. spirit, soul,
and body operating in unison. The story of Adam and Eve is a picture
of the archetypal humans before obtaining moral consciousness. Theirs
was a harmonious relationship with each other, the world, and the
Creator. That innocent harmony was shattered when they disobeyed God,
their natural wholeness falling apart into two seemingly
irreconcilable halves. Immediately, guilt and fear was manifested in
their lives. They become bound to hardship, toil, and suffering.  This
is symbolized in their exile from the paradisiac state.

The beast in the jungle does not possess moral consciousness. If it
were to receive this self-awareness, the knowledge of good and evil,
its paradisiac state would also be destroyed.

Was it the intention of the Creator to leave man in this state of
innocence all the days of his existence on earth? Or was the gaining
of self-awareness carefully staged by God, who did not desire that His
masterpiece, mankind, be a blissful idiot?

God must have known that, for mankind to achieve any kind of moral
value, he must pass through a confrontation with the opposites. There
is no other way to achieve union with God.

Jesus Christ is the answer to the problem of the warring polarities.
He was the perfectly integrated individual, reconciling the opposites,
and making it possible for us to be integrated, i.e. to become God,
not in His essence, but in His energies.

The opposites is THE Christian problem. The Apostle Paul describes it
with the utmost precision in Romans 7:15-24. And he follows with the
answer to his dilemma in vs 25.


: Upon arriving at home, Joseph probably took advantage of Mary...had his way
: with her so to speak.  Of course, word of this couldn't get around so Mary,
: being the highly-religious follower that she was decided "Hey, I'll just say
: that GOD impregnated me...no one will ever know!"
:
: Thus, seen as a trustworthy and honorable soul, she was believed...
:
: And then came Jesus, the child born from violence.
:
:
:

Dave,

Can you explain the purpose of your post, I can't imagine what you
must have thougt it meant.


I seem to be having some trouble with this...

   I can get the mac to go to sleep, but I can't make seem to
make it wake up with SetWUTime().  I am aware of the error in
the header files and IM VI.  I am setting the WU time to be
about two minutes, then putting the mac to sleep, but it doesn't
wakeup at the appointed time....

   Does it require a call to SystemTask in order to make sure that
everything is setup?


Compartment syndrome occurs when swelling happens in a "compartment"
bounded by fascia.  The pressure rises in the compartment and blood
supply and nerves are compromised.  The treatment is to open the
compartment surgically.  THe most common places for compartment
syndromes are the forearm and calf.  It is an emergency, since
if the pressure is not relieved, stuff will die.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon."


It is a bit unfair to call blame the Clinton Administration alone...this
initiative was underway under the Bush Administration...it is basically
a bipartisan effort of the establishment Demopublicans and
Republicrats...the same bipartisan effort that brought the S&L scandal,
and BCCI, etc.


"...a la Chrysler"??  Okay kids, to the nearest thousand, how many
dollars did the government spend to "bail out" Chrysler?  More than zero
you say?

Bzzzzzzzzzt.  Wrong answer.


Heya all, I've got a pair of Oakley forsale
There are frogskins, with aurborn red. THere are no
scratches and only used them once or twice last summer.
I'm looking for about 25-30 dollars but please give me a bid.

I'm am looking for the following items

A BUBBLE JET PRINTER that works and is el cheapo...
	i was looking for a cannon BJ-5 but if u have a bubble jet
to sell please tell me. I'm looking to spend about $100 or so.

A sound cards (sound blaster compatible). Again I'm looking fer something
cheap, such as $50 or so dollars.

thanks
whirley


	Usually one or two teams changes their logo or a minor
uniform change per season, but the past few seasons have been
incredible.
	Any thoughts on the new (old) Reds uniforms.  I
remember seeing a Pete Rose rookie card, and unless I miss my
guess he was wearing the exact same duds.
	The Mets (HOW ABOUT DOC'S PERFORMANCE TODAY?!!!!!) have
reinserted the Mets patch on the shoulder, and changed the Mets
insgnia on the front of the jersey.  To my knowledge it is the
first time that has been changed since 1962, and it reminds me
a little of the Dodger logo.
	Many teams have opted for a return to a previous style
of uniform, or at least uniforms that look more traditional.
(Phillies, Reds, Expos, White Sox, Padres, etc.) and the once
bright colors have been altered to gray.  The trend has also
seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks of the
early years, as opposed to the cookie-cutter saucer stadiums
construcrted throughout the sixties.
	With salaries now reaching unbelievable highs, no one
in the comissioner's office, and inter-league play on the
horizon, it's nice to see that baseball at least looks like it
was meant to be.


where can I buy 1 or 2 of these chips (pref in Australia)?
What is name and address of `UMC'?

Dan

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian Blockley                    ! I may say something profound
Environmental science              ! here one day.
Murdoch University                 !
Western Australia, 6153            !
blockley@essun1.murdoch.edu.au     !
phone 09-360 2737                  !


"Jack Previdi" <p00020@psilink.com> writes, in reply to Dorothy Heydt
reminding us that advertising is not done on Internet:

	   As a matter of fact D.J., it does make a difference.
	   Almost a half million new users joined the Internet last year,
	   many of them are commercial businesses. The ban on commercial
	   use of Internet is no more.

Jack, there is a difference between using the network for commercial
purposes and advertising in newsgroups.  Business communication is
okay.  Advertising to hundreds of thousands of users around the planet
who have no desire to receive advertising is not okay.

	   Those of us who pay for Internet access are constrained only
	   by our innate good taste and no have no "administrator" to
	   guide(?) us.

I suspect that a site which generated a large volume of material not
in anybody's good taste would find itself getting a lot of attention
it didn't want.  You may belong to the public library, but that
doesn't mean you can deface the books, disorder the stacks, or disturb
the other patrons.

You're constrained by the same rules that the rest of the users (many
academic and military, who get irritable about a network for which
they pay with tax and grant money carrying private business
advertising) follow.  There are Secret Masters here, just like
everywhere else.  They're not as obvious as the ones on Prodigy, but
they're here.

No doubt at some point the Internet, like everything else, will become
grotty enough to carry advertising.  At that time I hope it is
confined to its own newsgroups and not on discussion groups---like
misc.writing.


:Is erythromycin effective in treating pneumonia?
:
:-fm

Not only is it effective, it is in fact the drug of choice for
uncomplicated cases of community-acquired penumonia.


I have a 1982 Regal and I am interested in buying
a fiberglass hood, trunk, and bumpers for it.  Does anybody
know of a company who makes fiberglass parts for Regals ??

		Thanks in advance,


This kind of argument cries for a comment...

: >>...God did not create
: >>disease nor is He responsible for the maladies of newborns.
: >
: >>What God did create was life according to a protein code which is
: >>mutable and can evolve.  Without delving into a deep discussion of
: >>creationism vs evolutionism, God created the original genetic code
: >>perfect and without flaw.
: >  ~~~~~~~     ~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Do you have any evidence for this? If the code was once perfect, and
has degraded ever since, we _should_ have some evidence in favour
of this statement, shouldn't we?

Perhaps the biggest "imperfection" of the code is that it is full
of non-coding regions, introns, which are so called because they
intervene with the coding regions (exons). An impressive amount of
evidence suggests that introns are of very ancient origin; it is
likely that early exons represented early protein domains.

Is the number of introns decreasing or increasing? It appears that
intron loss can occur, and species with common ancestry usually
have quite similar exon-intron structure in their genes.

On the other hand, the possibility that introns have been inserted
later, presents several logical difficulties. Introns are removed
by a splicing mechanism - this would have to be present, but unused,
if introns are inserted. Moreover, intron insertion would have
required _precise_ targeting - random insertion would not be tolerated,
since sequences for intron removal (self-splicing of mRNA) are
conserved. Besides, transposition of a sequence usually leaves a
trace - long terminal repeats and target - site duplications, and
these are not found in or near intron sequences.

I seriously recommend reading textbooks on molecular biology and
genetics before posting "theological arguments" like this.
Try Watson's Molecular Biology of the Gene or Darnell, Lodish
& Baltimore's Molecular Biology of the Cell for starters.

: Remember, the question was posed in a theological context (Why does
: God cause disease in newborns?), and my answer is likewise from a
: theological perspective -- my own.  It is no less valid than a purely
: scientific perspective, just different.

Scientific perspective is supported by the evidence, whereas
theological perspectives often fail to fulfil this criterion.

: I think you misread my meaning.  I said God made the genetic code perfect,
: but that doesn't mean it's perfect now.  It has certainly evolved since.

For the worse? Would you please cite a few references that support
your assertion? Your assertion is less valid than the scientific
perspective, unless you support it by some evidence.

In fact, it has been claimed that parasites and diseases are perhaps
more important than we've thought - for instance, sex might
have evolved as defence against parasites. (This view is supported by
computer simulations of evolution, eg Tierra.)

: Perhaps.  I thought it was higher energy rays like X-rays, gamma
: rays, and cosmic rays that caused most of the damage.

In fact, it is thermal energy that does most of the damage, although
it is usually mild and easily fixed by enzymatic action.

: Actually, neither of us "knows" what the atmosphere was like at the
: time when God created life.  According to my recollection, most
: biologists do not claim that life began 4 billion years ago -- after
: all, that would only be a half billion years or so after the earth
: was created.  It would still be too primitive to support life.  I
: seem to remember a figure more like 2.5 to 3 billion years ago for
: the origination of life on earth.  Anyone with a better estimate?

I'd replace "created" with "formed", since there is no need to
invoke any creator if the Earth can be formed without one.
Most recent estimates of the age of the Earth range between 4.6 - 4.8
billion years, and earliest signs of life (not true fossils, but
organic, stromatolite-like layers) date back to 3.5 billion years.
This would leave more than billion years for the first cells to
evolve.

I'm sorry I can't give any references, this is based on the course
on evolutionary biochemistry I attended here.

: >>dominion, it was no great feat for Satan to genetically engineer
: >>diseases, both bacterial/viral and genetic.  Although the forces of
: >>natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species, the
: >>degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this.

Again, do you _want_ this be true, or do you have any evidence for
this supposed "degeneration"?

I can understand Scott's reaction:

: > Excuse me, but this is so far-fetched that I know you must be
: > jesting.  Do you know what pathogens are?  Do you know what
: > Point Mutations are?  Do you know that EVERYTHING CAN COME
: > ABOUT SPONTANEOUSLY?!!!!!
:
: In response to your last statement, no, and neither do you.
: You may very well believe that and accept it as fact, but you
: cannot *know* that.

I hope you don't forget this: We have _evidence_ that suggests
everything can come about spontaneously. Do you have evidence against
this conclusion? In science, one does not have to _believe_ in
anything. It is a healthy sign to doubt and disbelieve. But the
right path to walk is to take a look at the evidence if you do so,
and not to present one's own conclusions prior to this.

Theology does not use this method. Therefore, I seriously doubt
it could ever come to right conclusions.

: >>Human DNA, being more "complex", tends to accumulate errors adversely
: >>affecting our well-being and ability to fight off disease, while the
: >>simpler DNA of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in
: >>causing infection and disease.  It is a bad combination.  Hence
: >>we have newborns that suffer from genetic, viral, and bacterial
: >>diseases/disorders.

You are supposing a purpose, not a valid move. Bacteria and viruses
do not exist to cause disease. They are just another manifests of
a general principle of evolution - only replication saves replicators
from degradiation. We are just an efficient method for our DNA to
survive and replicate. The less efficient methods didn't make it
to the present.

And for the last time.  Please present some evidence for your claim that
human DNA is degrading through evolutionary processes. Some people have
claimed that the opposite is true - we have suppressed our selection,
and thus are bound to degrade. I haven't seen much evidence for either
claim.

: But then I ask, So?  Where is this relevant to my discussion in
: answering John's question of why?  Why are there genetic diseases,
: and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require
: babies to develop antibodies.  Is it God's fault? (the original
: question) -- I say no, it is not.

Of course, nothing "evil" is god's fault.  But your explanation does
not work, it fails miserably.

: You may be right.  But the fact is that you don't know that
: Satan is not responsible, and neither do I.
:
: Suppose that a powerful, evil being like Satan exists.  Would it
: be inconceivable that he might be responsible for many of the ills
: that affect mankind?  I don't think so.

He could have done a much better Job. (Pun intended.) The problem is,
it seems no Satan is necessary to explain any diseases, they are
just as inevitable as any product of evolution.

: Did I say that?  Where?  Seems to me like another bad inference.
: Actually what you've done is to oversimplify what I said to the
: point that your summary of my words takes on a new context.  I
: never said that people are "meant" (presumably by God) "to be
: punished by getting diseases".  Why I did say is that free moral
: choices have attendent consequences.  If mankind chooses to reject
: God, as people have done since the beginning, then they should not
: expect God to protect them from adverse events in an entropic
: universe.

I am not expecting this. If god exists, I expect him to leave us alone.
I would also like to hear why do you believe your choices are indeed
free. This is an interesting philosophical question, and the answer
is not as clear-cut as it seems to be.

What consequences would you expect from rejecting Allah?

: Oh, I admit it's not perfect (yet).  But I'm working on it.  :)

A good library or a bookstore is a good starting point.

: What does this have to do with the price of tea in China, or the
: question to which I provided an answer?  Biology and Genetics are
: fine subjects and important scientific endeavors.  But they explain
: *how* God created and set up life processes.  They don't explain
: the why behind creation, life, or its subsequent evolution.

Why is there a "why behind"? And your proposition was something
that is not supported by the evidence. This is why we recommend
these books.

Is there any need to invoke any why behind, a prime mover? Evidence
for this? If the whole universe can come into existence without
any intervention, as recent cosmological theories (Hawking et al)
suggest, why do people still insist on this?

: Thanks Scotty, for your fine and sagely advice.  But I am
: not highly motivated to learn all the nitty-gritty details
: of biology and genetics, although I'm sure I'd find it a
: fascinating subject.  For I realize that the details do
: not change the Big Picture, that God created life in the
: beginning with the ability to change and adapt to its
: environment.

I'm sorry, but they do. There is no evidence for your big picture,
and no need to create anything that is capable of adaptation.
It can come into existence without a Supreme Being.

Try reading P.W. Atkins' Creation Revisited (Freeman, 1992).

Petri


The interesting notion is that (I watched TV tonight) Koresh never
claimed officially to be Jesus Christ. His believers hoped that
he would be, but he never took this standpoint himself.

He was more interested in breaking the seven seals of Revelation,
and make sure that Armageddon would start. Well it did, and 19
children died, and no God saved them.

Kent