Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #013
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

   +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
   |                                                                     |
   | I said that on February 27, when those people were streaming down   |
   | our street, they were shouting, "Long live Turkey!" and "Glory to   |
   | Turkey!" And during the trial I said to that Ismailov, "What does   |
   | that mean, 'Glory to Turkey'?" I still don't understand what Turkey |
   | has to do with this, we live in the Soviet Union. That Turkey told  |
   | you to or is going to help you kill Armenians? I still don't        |
   | understand why "Glory to Turkey!" I asked that question twice and   |
   | got no answer . . . No one answered me . . .                        |
   |                                                                     |
   +---------------------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF EMMA SETRAKOVNA SARGISIAN

   Born 1933
   Cook
   Sumgait Emergency Hospital

   Resident at Building 16/13, Apartment 14
   Block 5
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]

To this day I can't understand why my husband, an older man, was killed. What
was he killed for. He hadn't hurt anyone, hadn't said any word he oughtn't
have. Why did they kill him? I want to find out--from here, from there, from
the government--why my husband was killed.

On the 27th, when I returned from work--it was a Saturday--my son was at home.
He doesn't work. I went straight to the kitchen, and he called me, "Mamma, is
there a soccer game?" There were shouts from Lenin Street. That's where we
lived. I say, "I don't know, Igor, I haven't turned on the TV." He looked
again and said, "Mamma, what's going on in the courtyard?!" I look and see so
many people, it's awful, marching, marching, there are hundreds, thousands,
you can't even tell how many there are. They're shouting, "Down with the
Armenians! Kill the Armenians! Tear the Armenians to pieces!" My God, why is
that happening, what for? I had known nothing at that point. We lived together
well, in friendship, and suddenly something like this. It was completely
unexpected. And they were shouting, "Long live Turkey!" And they had flags,
and they were shouting. There was a man walking in front well dressed, he's
around 40 or 45, in a gray raincoat. He is walking and saying something, I
can't make it out through the vent window. He is walking and saying something,
and the children behind him are shouting, "Tear the Armenians to pieces!" and
"Down with the Armenians!" They shout it again, and then shout, "Hurrah!" The
people streamed without end, they were walking in groups, and in the groups I
saw that there were women, too. I say, "My God, there are women there too!"
And my son says, "Those aren't women, Mamma, those are bad women." Well we
didn't look a long time. They were walking and shouting and I was afraid, I
simply couldn't sit still. I went out onto the balcony, and my Azerbaijani
neighbor is on the other balcony, and I say, "Khalida, what's going on, what
happened?" She says, "Emma, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what
happened." Well she was quite frightened too. They had these white sticks,
each second or third one had a white rod. They're waving the rods above their
heads as they walk, and the one who's out front, like a leader, he has a white
stick too. Well maybe it was an armature shaft, but what I saw was white, I
don't know.

My husband got home 10 or 15 minutes later. He comes home and I say, "Oh
dear, I'm frightened, they're going to kill us I bet." And he says, "What are
you afraid of, they're just children." I say, "Everything that happens comes
from children." There had been 15- and 16-year kids from the Technical and
Vocational School. "Don't fear," he said, "it's nothing, nothing all that
bad." He didn't eat, he just lay on the sofa. And just then on television they
broadcast that two Azerbaijanis had been killed in Karabakh, near Askeran.
When I heard that I couldn't settle down at all, I kept walking here and
there and I said, "They're going to kill us, the Azerbaijanis are going to
kill us." And he says, "Don't be afraid." Then we heard--from the central
square, there are women shouting near near the stage, well, they're shouting
different things, and you couldn't hear every well. I say, "You speak
Azerbaijani well, listen to what they're saying." He says "Close the window
and go to bed, there s nothing happening there." He listened a bit and then
closed the window and went to bed, and told us, "Come on, go to sleep, it's
nothing." Sleep, what did he mean sleep?  My Son and I stood at the window
until two in the morning watching. Well he's sick, and all of this was
affecting him. I say, "Igor, you go to bed, I'm going to go to bed in a minute
too." He went and I sat at the window until three, and then went to bed.
Things had calmed down slightly.

The 28th, Sunday, was my day off. My husband got up and said, "Come on, Emma,
get up." I say, "Today's my day off, let me rest." He says, "Aren't you going
to make me some tea?" Well I felt startled and got up, and said, "Where are
you going?" He says, "I'm going out, I have to." I say, "Can you really go
outside on a day like today? Don't go out, for God's sake. You never listen to
me, I know, and you're not going to listen to me now, but at least don't take
the car out of the garage, go without the car." And he says, "Come on, close
the door!" And then on the staircase he muttered something, I couldn't make it
out, he probably said "coward" or something.

I closed the door and he left. And I started cleaning . . . picking things up
around the house . . . Everything seemed quiet until one o'clock in the after-
noon, but at the bus station, my neighbor told me, cars were burning. I said,
"Khalida, was it our car?" She says, "No, no, Emma, don't be afraid, they
were government cars and Zhigulis.'' Our car is a GAZ-21 Volga. And I waited,
it was four o'clock, five o'clock . . . and when he wasn't home at seven I
said, "Oh, they've killed Shagen!"

Tires are burning in town, there's black smoke in town, and I'm afraid, I'm
standing on the balcony and I'm all . . . my whole body is shaking. My God,
they've probably killed him! So basically I waited like that until ten
o'clock and he still hadn't come home. And I'm afraid to go out. At ten
o'clock I look out: across from our building is a building with a bookstore,
and from upstairs, from the second floor, everything is being thrown outside.
I'm looking out of one window and Igor is looking out of the other, and I
don't want him to see this, and he, as it turns out, doesn't want me to see
it. We wanted to hide it from one another. I joined him. "Mamma," he says,
"look what they're doing over there!" They were burning everything, and there
were police standing there, 10 or 15 of them, maybe twenty policemen standing
on the side, and the crowd is on the other side, and two or three people are
throwing everything down from the balcony. And one of the ones on the balcony
is shouting, "What are you standing there for, burn it!" When they threw the
television, wow, it was like a bomb! Our neighbor on the third floor came out
on her balcony and shouted, "Why are you doing that, why are you burning those
things, those people saved with such difficulty to buy those things for their
home. Why are you burning them?" And from the courtyard they yell at her, "Go
inside, go inside! Instead why don't you tell us if they are any of them in
your building or not?" They meant Armenians, but they didn't say Armenians,
they said, "of them." She says, "No, no, no, none!" Then she ran downstairs to
our place, and says, "Emma, Emma, you have to leave!" I say, "They've killed
Shagen anyway, what do we have to live for? It won't be living for me without
Shagen. Let them kill us, too!" She insists, saying, "Emma, get out of here,
go to Khalida's, and give me the key. When they come I'll say that it's my
daughter's apartment, that they're off visiting someone." I gave her the key
and went to the neighbor's, but I couldn't endure it. I say, "Igor, you stay
here, I'm going to go downstairs, and see, maybe Papa's . . . Papa's there."

Meanwhile, they were killing the two brothers, Alik and Valery [Albert and
Valery Avanesians; see the accounts of Rima Avanesian and Alvina Baluian], in
the courtyard. There is a crowd near the building, they're shouting, howling,
and I didn't think that they were killing at the time. Alik and Valery lived
in the corner house across from ours. When I went out into the courtyard I saw
an Azerbaijani, our neighbor, a young man about 30 years old. I say, "Madar,
Uncle Shagen's gone, let's go see, maybe he's dead in the garage or near the
garage, let's at least bring the corpse into the house. "He shouts, "Aunt
Emma, where do you think you're going?! Go back into the house, I'll look for
him." I say, "Something will happen to you, too, because of me, no, Madar,
I'm coming too." Well he wouldn't let me go all the same, he says, "You stay
here with us, I'm go look." He went and looked, and came back and said, "Aunt
Emma, there's no one there, the garage is closed. "Madar went off again and
then returned and said, "Aunt Emma, they're already killed Alik, and Valery's
there . . . wheezing."

Madar wanted to go up to him, but those scoundrels said, "Don't go near him,
or we'll put you next to him." He got scared--he's young--and came back and
said, "I'm going to go call, maybe an ambulance will come, at least to take
Alik, maybe he'll live . . . " They grew up together in our courtyard, they
knew each other well, they had always been on good terms. He went to call, but
not a single telephone worked, they had all been shut off. He called, and
called, and called, and called--nothing.

I went upstairs to the neighbor's. Igor says, "Two police cars drove up over
there, their headlights are on, but they're not touching them, they are still
lying where they were, they're still lying there . . . "We watched out the
window until four o'clock, and then went downstairs to our apartment. I didn't
take my clothes off. I lay on the couch so as not to go to bed, and at six
o'clock in the morning I got up and said, "Igor, you stay here at home, don't
go out, don't go anywhere, I'm going to look, I have to find Papa, dead or
alive . . . let me go . . . I've got the keys from work."

At six o'clock I went to the Emergency Hospital. The head doctor and another
doctor opened the door to the morgue. I run up to them and say, "Doctor, is
Shagen there?" He says, "What do you mean? Why should Shagen be here?!" I
wanted to go in, but he wouldn't let me. There were only four people in there,
they said. Well, they must have been awful because they didn't let me in. They
said, "Shagen's not here, he's alive somewhere, he'll come back."

It's already seven o'clock in the morning. I look and there is a panel truck
with three policemen. Some of our people from the hospital were there with
them. I say, "Sara Baji ["Sister" Sara, term of endearment], go look, they've
probably brought Shagen." I said it, shouted it, and she went and came back
and says, "No, Emma, he has tan shoes on, it's a younger person." Now Shagen
just happened to have tan shoes, light tan, they were already old. When they
said it like that I guessed immediately. I went and said, "Doctor, they've
brought Shagen in dead." He says, "Why are you carrying on like that, dead,
dead . . . he's alive." But then he went all the same, and when he came back
the look on his face was . . . I could tell immediately that he was dead. They
knew one another well, Shagen had worked for him a long time. I say, "Doctor,
is it Shagen?" He says, "No, Emma, it's not he, it's somebody else entirely."
I say, "Doctor, why are you deceiving me, I'll find out all the same anyway,
if not today, then tomorrow." And he said . . . I screamed, right there in the
office. He says, "Emma, go, go calm down a little." Another one of our
colleagues said that the doctor had said it was Shagen, but . . . in hideous
condition. They tried to calm me down, saying it wasn't Shagen. A few minutes
later another colleague comes in and says, "Oh, poor Emma!" When she said it
like that there was no hope left.

   That day was awful. They were endlessly bringing in dead and injured
people.

At night someone took me home. I said, "Igor, Papa's been killed."

On the morning of the 1st I left Igor at home again and went to the hospital:
I had to bury him somehow, do something. I look and see that the hospital is
surrounded by soldiers. They are wearing dark clothes. "Hey, citizen, where
are you going?" I say, "I work here," and from inside someone shouts, "Yes,
yes, that's our cook, let her in." I went right to the head doctor's office
and there is a person from the City Health Department there, he used to
work with us at the hospital. He says, "Emma, Shagen's been taken to Baku.
In the night they took the wounded and the dead, all of them, to Baku." I
say, "Doctor, how will I bury him?" He says, "We're taking care of all that,
don't you worry, we'll do everything, we'll tell you about it. Where did you
spend the night?" I say, "I was at home." He says, "What do you mean you
were at home?! You were at home alone?" I say, "No, Igor was there too." He
says, "You can't stay home, we're getting an ambulance right now, wait just
one second, the head doctor is coming, we're arranging an ambulance right
now, you put on a lab coat and take one for Igor, you go and bring Igor here
like a patient, and you'll stay here and we'll se~ later what to do next ..."
His last name is Kagramanov. The head doctor's name is Izyat Jamalogli
Sadukhov.

The "ambulance" arrived and I went home and got Igor. They admitted him as a
patient, they gave us a private room, an isolation room. We stayed in the
hospital until the 4th.

Some police car came and they said, "Emma, let's go." And the women, our
colleagues, then they saw the police car, became anxious and said, "Where are
you taking her?" I say, "They're going to kill me, too . . . " And the
investigator says, "Why are you saying that, we're going to make a positive
identification." We went to Baku and they took me into the morgue . . . I
still can't remember what hospital it was . . . The investigator says, "Let's
go, we need to be certain, maybe it's not Shagen." And when I saw the caskets,
lying on top of one another, I went out of my mind. I say, "I can't look, no."
The investigator says, "Are there any identifying marks?" I say, "Let me see
the clothes, or the shoes, or even a sock, I'll recognize them." He says,
"Isn't they're anything on his body?" I say he has seven gold teeth and his
finger, he only has half of one of his fingers. Shagen was a carpenter, he had
been injured at work . . .

They brought one of the sleeves of the shirt and sweater he was wearing, they
brought them and they were all burned . . . When I saw them I shouted, "Oh,
they burned him!" I shouted, I don't know, I fell down . . . or maybe I sat
down, I don't remember. And that investigator says, "Well fine, fine, since
we've identified that these are his clothes, and since his teeth . . . since
he has seven gold teeth . . . "

On the 4th they told me: "Emma, it's time to bury Shagen now." I cried, "How,
how can I bury Shagen when I have only one son and he's sick? I should inform
his relatives, he has three sisters, I can't do it by myself." They say, "OK,
you know the situation. How will they get here from Karabagh? How will they
get here from Yerevan? There's no transportation, it s impossible."

He was killed on February 28, and I buried him on March 7. We buried him in
Sumgait. They asked me, "Where do you want to bury him?" I said, "I want to
bury him in Karabagh, where we were born, let me bury him in Karabagh," I'm
shouting, and the head of the burial office, I guess, says, "Do you know what
it means, take him to Karabagh?! It means arson!" I say, "What do you mean,
arson? Don't they know what's going on in Karabagh? The whole world knows that
they killed them, and I want to take him to Karabagh, I don't have anyone
anymore." I begged, I pleaded, I grieved, I even got down on my knees. He
says, "Let's bury him here now, and in three months, in six months, a year,
if it calms down, I'll help you move him to Karabagh . . . "

Our trial was the first in Sumgait. It was concluded on May 16. At the
investigation the murderer, Tale Ismailov, told how it all happened, but then
at the trial he . . . tried to wriggle . . . he tried to soften his crime.
Then they brought a videotape recorder, I guess, and played it, and said,
"Ismailov, look, is that you?" He says, "Yes." "Well look, here you're
describing everything as it was on the scene of the crime, right?" He says,
"Yes." "And now you're telling it differently?" He says, "Well maybe I
forgot!" Like that.

The witnesses and that criminal creep himself said that when the car was going
along Mir Street, there was a crowd of about 80 people . . . Shagen had a
Volga GAZ-21. The 80 people surrounded his car, and all 80 of them were
involved. One of them was this Ismailov guy, this Tale. They--it's unclear
who--started pulling Shagen out of the car. Well, one says from the left side
of the car, another says from the right side. They pulled off his sports
jacket. He had a jacket on. Well they ask him, "What's your nationality?" He
says, "Armenian." Well they say from the crowd they shouted, "If he's an
Armenian, kill him, kill him!" They started beating him, they broke seven of
his ribs, and his heart . . . I don't know, they did something there, too
. . . it's too awful to tell about. Anyway, they say this Tale guy . . . he
had an armature shaft. He says, "I picked it up, it was lying near a bush,
that's where I got it." He said he picked it up, but the witnesses say that he
had already had it. He said, "I hit him twice," he said, " . . . once or twice
on the head with that rod." And he said that when he started to beat him
Shagen was sitting on the ground, and when he hit him he fell over. He said,
"I left, right nearby they were burning things or something in an apartment,
killing someone," he says, "and I came back to look, is that Shagen alive or
not?" I said, "You wanted to finish him, right, and if he was still alive, you
came back to hit him again?" He went back and looked and he was already dead.
"After that," that bastard Tale said, "after that I went home."

I said, "You . . . you . . . little snake," I said, "Are you a thief and a
murderer?" Shagen had had money in his jacket, and a watch on his wrist. They
were taken. He says he didn't take them

When they overturned and burned the car, that Tale was no longer there, it was
other people who did that. Who it was, who turned over the car and who burned
it, that hasn't been clarified as yet. I told the investigator, "How can you
have the trial when you don't know who burned the car?" He said something, but
I didn't get what he was saying. But I said, "You still haven't straightened
everything out, I think that's unjust."

When they burned the car he was lying next to it, and the fire spread to him.
In the death certificate it says that he had third-degree burns over 80
percent of his body . . .

And I ask again, why was he killed? My husband was a carpenter; he was a good
craftsman, he knew how to do everything, he even fixed his own car, with his
own hands. We have three children. Three sons. Only Igor was with me at the
time. The older one was in Pyatigorsk, and the younger one is serving in the
Army. And now they're fatherless...

I couldn't sit all the way through it. When the Procurator read up to 15
years' deprivation of freedom, I just . . . I went out of my mind, I didn't
know what to do with myself, I said, "How can that be? You," I said, "you are
saying that it was intentional murder and the sentence is 15 years'
deprivation of freedom?" I screamed, I had my mind! I said, "Let me at that
creep, with my bare hands I'll . . . " A relative restrained me, and there
were all those military people there . . . I lest. I said," This isn't a
Soviet trial, this is unjust!" That's what I shouted, l said it and left . . .

I said that on February 27, when those people were streaming down our street,
they were shouting, "Long live Turkey!" and "Glory to Turkey!" And during the
trial I said to that Ismailov, "What does that mean, 'Glory to Turkey'?" I
still don't understand what Turkey has to do with this, we live in the Soviet
Union. That Turkey told you to or is going to help you kill Armenians? I still
don't understand why "Glory to Turkey!" I asked that question twice and got no
answer . . . No one answered me . . .

   May 19, 1988
   Yerevan

		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 178-184


Battery powered devices like the PowerBook are sometimes more sensitive to
serial port weirdness.  I had trouble with connecting my Mac Plus to an HP 95LX
handheld.  Everything else worked okay on that port, but not the HP. (it runs
on two penlite batteries).  It turned out that the plus (by accident or by
design flaw?) was putting a 4 volt bias on the serial port that was doing
weird things to the HP (which has only 3v dc!).  The HP worked fine when
connected to the printer port.

Does your PB screen get dim or anything when connected to the device?  Have you
tried using the printer port?

Good luck.

--jamie


The concept of God as a teacher is indeed interesting. Does He grade on
a curve, does He cheat? That is interesting. Not to mention thought
provoking. My own concept is that He is a Father and we are His
children. In that He loves us, with a love that we can never understand
until we are with Him. The Bible says that He looks on the heart as the
final measure. From that perspective, in a grading context, the heart is
the final test.
Specifically, most Christians would agree that there is only one Heaven
and one Hell. From that perspective, it is Heaven or Hell. You either go
to one or the other. The "grading" on a pass/fail basis is done by God
the Father with intervention by Jesus the Son. Not by others. For only
God sees the heart. The Bible says of the heart, "...who can know it." I
would say there has always been, and always be, an unchanging method.
That is what makes a relationship with Christ so secure. In an uncertain
and ever changing landscape He is always the same. Yesterday, today and
tomorrow. Concerning whether or not our childhoods are considerd as part
of the test, my own conviction is no. Were that the case I certainly
wouldn't be going to Heaven. The Bible speaks very plainly about the
love and care Jesus had for and about children. The reality is that we
are all children. Some of us just have bigger bodies and grey hair. But
the Father, our Father is always there. Like most Fathers He wants only
the best for His own. There maybe decipline, but there is more love.
It's sometimes looks like Christianity is a test, to see who makes it
and who doesn't. Those who do pass=Heaven, and those who don't go to the
other place. But it is really much more than that...
There are few experts. Most of us are just travelers looking for the
light and the way Home. Praying that we can bring others with us.


Actually, I was simply relaying the reasoning of this so-called genius BW
writer.  I agree.  The reasoning was foolish.

Next time, before you say something foolish, be aware what you are responding
to.


Hi netters,

Does anyone know have any info on the Ultrastor line of controller?
I'm especially interested in the 14F and 34F SCSI controllers.
Please email any info ASAP.  I'm building a system and that's one
of the few conponents that is missing.  Thanks.


:
: >
: > HELP!!!
: > my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car.
:
:
: FYI, just last week the PBS show Motor Week gave the results of what they
: thought were the best cars for '93.  In the convertible category, the
: Honda Civic del Sol achieved this honor.
:
: The one down-side I see with the car is its interior, it looks
: inexpensive and dull.
:
I own a del Sol and I must vouch for the interior.  I really looks snazzy when
the top is off.  I looks a lot better in person than on the television.  (I saw
that Motorweek as well.  Needless to say I was smiling a bit by the time it
was over ...)  :*)

Watch out for that darned "convertible tan" tho...


What are the consequences of the homophobic ranting of the
self-righteous?  Well, I just noted this on another group,
and thought I'd pass it along.  The context is talk.origins,
and a report of yet another "debate" that was nothing but an
attempt at mindless bullying and factless assertion by a
standard-issue Creationist.  The writer reflects that the
behavior reported reminds him of some Christian groups he has
known.  I believe that the writer is a (non-homosexual) Christian:

+	There is a very effective technique used to promote
+	unit cohesion among the Soldiers of the Lord.  It is
+	called "witnessing"...  I've seen this process used well
+	and poorly; the near devil worship I mention was a group
+	... that was using the witnessing to get people lathered
+	up to go kill homosexuals or at least terrorize them off
+	campus as it was clearly God's will that they do so.

I have deleted the specifics of the location, as I do not
believe it characteristic of the place (a state in which I
spent my formative first 10 years), though it *does* have,
unfortunately, a subpopulation that this remark fits to a tee.


I've had PRK.

I would suggest asking a doctor about contacts. Mine said yes to
contacts. I think the scars from RK would preclude contacts.

No. RK makes radial cuts around the circumference of the cornea, up to
8 I think, and these change the curvature of the cornea through stress
chages. PRK vaporizes (burns) away a thin layer from the front of the
cornea making the optical axis of the eye shorter. The laser doesn't
cut in PRK, it vaporizes. In RK, the eye is cut into.

I find my vision is more clear for some things, and less clear for
others, only at night. I notice a definite haloing at night in the
darkness when I look at automobile headlamps, though this is not
something I spend inordinate amounts of time doing. For ordinary
things, my vision, in particular having a fully-operating peripheral
vision, is clearer than with glasses, or contacts.


On Ted Koppel last night, the ubiquitous Australian woman claimed that
Koresh trained the women (years ago) how to commit suicide by swallowing
cyanide or by putting a gun in their mouth.  With cyanide on hand, why
choose to roast yourself?  There are too many unanswered questions here.
--


Hmm - I don't think you and I are thinking of the same thing. I was the
original poster, BTW. The accelerator that I'm talking about almost
certainly uses a 68HC000, according to the footnotes in the Supra ad. It
only costs $199 list, so I really doubt if it has a 28 MHz 68030 inside.

It's called the Supra 28, or Supra Turbo 28.
There's an external A500 model, and an internal A2000 model.

BTW, does anyone know if a 28Mhz 68HC010 exists?
--
Griff Miller >  Griff.Miller@waii.com  < use this for email.

      *** My opinions are mine, not Western's. ***


:
: > [...]  You're not breathing clean air provided by government
: > regulations, [...]
:
: If this doesn't beat all I ever heard!  The above certainly says a
: mouthful about the mindset of Ted Frank, and also of statists
: everywhere.
: --

Yes, there's certainly no need to argue with him, or address the
substance of what he says- he's a statist, after all.  Probably
politically correct, too...


We'll let you live, but just this once....

There's more to a real "storage" scope than just a long-persistence
phosphor.  Actually, the phosphor ISN'T usually anything special at all;
what makes a storage tube work is a screen placed just *behind* the phosphor,
which becomes charged as the electron beam intially "writes" the trace.
With the trace now written to the screen, a separate low-level "flood"
electron gun keeps the image lit by exciting those areas of phosphor
which are next to the "written" areas on the storage screen.  There are
some problems with this - the resolution is limited compared to a non-storage
tube, and the stored trace tends to "bloom" with time.

Of course, this is pretty much obsolete technology, done in by the current
digital scopes which use raster-scan displays and keep everything in a
frame-buffer memory anyways.

          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ah, yes - from the same people who brought you that amazing new reading
program that's sweeping Eastern Europe: "Hooked on Consonants!" :-)


Article in this morning's Houston Post...."negotiators send food to
rebellious inmates as humanitarian gesture"...speaking about the Ohio prison
riot where they have killed at least one of the hostage guards.

I know it's not the same "group" but the mindset appears to be common to
"those what rule" here lately....they won't give diddley to the BD's in Waco
but they treat criminals as deserving of "humanitarian gestures".

This is but another indicator that the criminal caste seems to enjoy more
priviliges in today's society than their victims or other law abiding
citizens. What is it that makes the criminal so precious to the "leaders of
the system"?

Could it be that the criminal is one of the "tools" the "authorities" are
using to "excuse" some of the rights negation they are trying to foist upon
the law abiding citizen in the name of crime control....don't solve the crime
problem because then the citizen couldn't be held hostage to "our help".

If the crime problem were solved in favor of the citizen/victim at the
expense of the criminal none of the crap such as RICO and gun banning could
be used as excuses to work the agenda of those who would control our every
move and thought.
---
 . OLX 2.2 . If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand.


CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS

      NAVY SCIENTIFIC VISUALIZATION AND VIRTUAL REALITY SEMINAR

			Tuesday, June 22, 1993

	    Carderock Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center
	      (formerly the David Taylor Research Center)
			  Bethesda, Maryland

SPONSOR: NESS (Navy Engineering Software System) is sponsoring a
one-day Navy Scientific Visualization and Virtual Reality Seminar.
The purpose of the seminar is to present and exchange information for
Navy-related scientific visualization and virtual reality programs,
research, developments, and applications.

PRESENTATIONS: Presentations are solicited on all aspects of
Navy-related scientific visualization and virtual reality.  All
current work, works-in-progress, and proposed work by Navy
organizations will be considered.  Four types of presentations are
available.

     1. Regular presentation: 20-30 minutes in length
     2. Short presentation: 10 minutes in length
     3. Video presentation: a stand-alone videotape (author need not
	attend the seminar)
     4. Scientific visualization or virtual reality demonstration (BYOH)

Accepted presentations will not be published in any proceedings,
however, viewgraphs and other materials will be reproduced for
seminar attendees.

ABSTRACTS: Authors should submit a one page abstract and/or videotape to:

     Robert Lipman
     Naval Surface Warfare Center, Carderock Division
     Code 2042
     Bethesda, Maryland  20084-5000

     VOICE (301) 227-3618;  FAX (301) 227-5753
     E-MAIL  lipman@oasys.dt.navy.mil

Authors should include the type of presentation, their affiliations,
addresses, telephone and FAX numbers, and addresses.  Multi-author
papers should designate one point of contact.

DEADLINES: The abstact submission deadline is April 30, 1993.
Notification of acceptance will be sent by May 14, 1993.
Materials for reproduction must be received by June 1, 1993.

For further information, contact Robert Lipman at the above address.

	  PLEASE DISTRIBUTE AS WIDELY AS POSSIBLE, THANKS.

Robert Lipman                     | Internet: lipman@oasys.dt.navy.mil
David Taylor Model Basin - CDNSWC |       or: lip@ocean.dt.navy.mil
Computational Signatures and      | Voicenet: (301) 227-3618
   Structures Group, Code 2042    | Factsnet: (301) 227-5753
Bethesda, Maryland  20084-5000    | Phishnet: stockings@long.legs


[An article from comp.org.eff.news, EFFector Online 5.06 - Carl]

                       April 16, 1993

      INITIAL EFF ANALYSIS OF CLINTON PRIVACY AND SECURITY
                           PROPOSAL

       The Clinton Administration today made a major announcement
on cryptography policy which will effect the privacy and security of
millions of Americans.  The first part of the plan is to begin a
comprehensive inquiry into major communications privacy issues
such as export controls which have effectively denied most people
easy access to robust encryption as well as law enforcement issues
posed by new technology.

       However, EFF is very concerned that the Administration has
already reached a conclusion on one critical part of the inquiry, before
any public comment or discussion has been allowed.  Apparently, the
Administration is going to use its leverage to get all telephone
equipment vendors to adopt a voice encryption standard developed
by the National Security Agency. The so-called "Clipper Chip" is an
80-bit, split key escrowed encryption scheme which will be built into
chips manufactured by a military contractor.  Two separate escrow
agents would store users' keys, and be required to turn them over
law enforcement upon presentation of a valid warrant.  The
encryption scheme used is to be classified, but they chips will be
available to any manufacturer for incorporation into their
communications products.

       This proposal raises a number of serious concerns .

       First, the Administration appears to be adopting a solution
before conducting an inquiry.  The NSA-developed Clipper chip may
not be the most secure product. Other vendors or developers may
have better schemes. Furthermore, we should not rely on the
government as the sole source for Clipper or any other chips.  Rather,
independent chip manufacturers should be able to produce chipsets
based on open standards.

       Second, an algorithm can not be trusted unless it can be tested.
Yet the Administration proposes to keep the chip algorithm
classified.  EFF believes that any standard adopted ought to be public
and open.  The public will only have confidence in the security of a
standard that is open to independent, expert scrutiny.

       Third, while the use of the split-key, dual-escrowed
system may prove to be a reasonable balance between privacy and
law enforcement needs, the details of this scheme must be explored
publicly before it is adopted.  What will give people confidence in the
safety of their keys?  Does disclosure of keys to a third party waive
individual's fifth amendment rights in subsequent criminal
inquiries?

       In sum, the Administration has shown great sensitivity to the
importance of these issues by planning a comprehensive inquiry into
digital privacy and security.  However, the "Clipper chip" solution
ought to be considered as part of the inquiry, not be adopted before
the discussion even begins.

DETAILS OF THE PROPOSAL:

ESCROW

The 80-bit key will be divided between two escrow agents, each of
whom hold 40 bits of each key.  Upon presentation of a valid
warrant, the two escrow agents would have to turn the key parts
over to law enforcement agents.  Most likely the Attorney General
will be asked to identify appropriate escrow agents.  Some in the
Administration have suggested one non-law enforcement federal
agency, perhaps the Federal Reserve, and one non-governmental
organization.  But, there is no agreement on the identity of the agents
yet.

Key registration would be done by the manufacturer of the
communications device.  A key is tied to the device, not to the person
using it.

CLASSIFIED ALGORITHM AND THE POSSIBILITY OF BACK DOORS

The Administration claims that there are no back door means by
which the government or others could break the code without
securing keys from the escrow agents and that the President will
be told there are no back doors to this classified algorithm.  In order
to prove this, Administration sources are interested in arranging for
an all-star crypto cracker team to come in, under a security
arrangement, and examine the algorithm for trap doors.  The results
of the investigation would then be made public.

GOVERNMENT AS MARKET DRIVER

In order to get a market moving, and to show that the government
believes in the security of this system, the feds will be the first big
customers for this product.  Users will include the FBI, Secret Service,
VP Al Gore, and maybe even the President.

FROM MORE INFORMATION CONTACT:

Jerry Berman, Executive Director
Daniel J. Weitzner, Senior Staff Counsel


As our local.religion.christian BBS group seems moribund, I'm posting here.

On one of the Sundays just before Easter I went to church.  The sermon was
based on a story in the Book of Joshua.  (The one about Joshua sending out
spies to the land he was planning to take)  What I particularly remember,
because of having heard part of a CBC radio documentary on Bosnia, was that
the Rahab (the woman who sheltered the spies) said that the people were
"melting in fear."  What with having heard that CBC radio documentary and
knowing that the Muslims in Bosnia were losing the war, I felt
uncomfortable.  After all, the Serbs are driving non-Christians out.  On
the other hand, ministers do say that the Bible is opposed to the values
held by our secular society.  Anyhow members of that church are involved in
out-of-country missionary work.  Also, the pastor has talked of spiritual
warfare and of bringing Christ to the nonreligious people of our area.

The next Sunday, the sermon was about Joshua 6 (where the Israelites
take Jericho and then proceed to massacre everybody there --- except
for Rahab, who had sheltered the spies).  With those reports about
Bosnia in my mind, I felt uncomfortable about the minister saying that
the massacre (the one in Joshua) was right.  But what really bothered
me was that, if I was going to try taking Christianity seriously, I
shouldn't be so troubled about the reports of "ethnic cleansing" in
Bosnia.  Certainly, my sympathies shouldn't be with the Moslims.
Considering that the Bosnian Muslims are descendants of Christians
who, under Turkish rule, converted to Islam could the Serbs be doing
God's work?


The company was probably "Public Missiles, Inc" of Michigan.

Yup.

Nope, it's not illegal. It is, however, closely regulated. In order to
purchase and use the big rocket motors required, it is necessary to be
one of the following:
a) An employee of a government agency.
b) An employee or student at a university doing research involving rockets.
c) A member or representative of an educational organization involved in
research or other uses of rockets. There are two such organizations:
The Tripoli Rocketry Association and the National Association of Rocketry.
Members of either organization must demonstrate proficiency in construction
and flight before they are allowed to purchase large motors on their own.

The FAA will issue a waiver of its regulations, upon request, to any
organization which can persuade them it has taken adequate precautions
to avoid conflicts with aircraft. The usual stipulations are:
- Only operation up to a specified ceiling is allowed. Depending on the
location, this ceiling may be from 5000 to 50000 feet AGL.
- The operator of the rocket is responsible for avoiding any aircraft
within the operating radius around the launch site.
- Flight into clouds or beyond visual range in haze is expressly prohibited.
- The FAA will provide a NOTAM informing other users of the airspace that
unmanned rocket operations are taking place at the specified place and time.

Most of the launches that are held (and there are dozens of them every year)
are held in areas where air traffic is relatively light, such as over the
western deserts (the Black Rock Desert north of Reno is particularly popular
since it is 25 x 150 miles of *nothing to hit* on the ground).

The two rocketry associations test and approve motors for their members'
use, to insure safety. Depending on motor size, the launcher setback is
from 50 to 500 or more feet.

By the way, rockets under 1 lb and powered by an "F" motor are exempt from
most Federal regulations on unmanned rockets anyway. See FAR 101, Subpart
C, for details.

As for recovery...although the higher altitude rockets can reach up to
50,000 feet, most of them only get to 2,000 to 5,000 feet. The typical
rocket is 2 to 6 inches in diameter, and carries a 3 to 6 foot parachute,
or multiple parachutes, depending on the payload. Many rockets also carry
either a small transmitter or an audio sounder--particularly at launches
in the eastern US, where there are more obstructions.

Camera, telemetry transmitter, and video payloads are becoming quite common.

Why not? It's a lot of fun...check out the traffic on rec.models.rockets
for information about the model (3 lb and under) and high power (everything
bigger) rocket hobbies. As with all dangerous activities, the key is to
practice safety. I've been flying consumer rockets ranging up to 4-5 lbs
takeoff weight for 27 years, and still have all my extremities intact.

That's another thing. NO EXPLOSIVE WARHEADS OF ANY KIND ARE ALLOWED ON THESE
ROCKETS. NONE! Please forgive me for shouting, but that's one of the biggest
misconceptions people have about our hobby.

True. But it will not be related to the rocket hobby, unless I get
hit while crossing a road with a rocket in my hand.


From article <1993Apr15.205654.20845@news.cs.indiana.edu>, by "Mohammad Al-Ansari" <alansari@mango.ucs.indiana.edu>:
Get back to your vendors, or better yet the board manufactures and get
some more info:
   Where made.
   Norton indexes (yeah I know BMs suck but whats a mother to do?)
   number of slots, and types, # ESIA and # 32 bit?
   Any IDE or SCSI on board?
   How easy to upgrade RAM, location and # of pins.
   OVERDRIVE?
   Oscilator kits?
   Does it have a 16550 UART?
   Who's BIOS?


No, and Im especially unhappy that these 70+ people died in an assault
on private property with government armored vehicles.

I am also unhappy (or actually, very suspicious) that the FBI was dismissing
out of hand any chances that they might have accidentally set the blaze
themselves. I mean, I guess we are just supposed to believe that
ramming modified tanks into the walls of a building and injecting
toxic gases into the building are just routine procedures, no WAY
anything could go wrong.


HEY!!! All you Yankee fans who've been knocking my prediction of Baltimore.
You flooded my mailbox with cries of "Militello's good, Militello's good."

Where is he??!! I noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first
outing.  He's not by any chance in Columbus  now, is he?  Please don't tell
me you're relying on this guy to be the *fourth*, not the fifth, but the
*fourth* starter on this brittle pitching staff.

As for the O's, it's still early.

See y'all at the ballyard
Go Braves
Chop Chop

Michael Mule'


 Markus had a good season in MoDo in the Swedish elite league, scoring
 22 goals, 17 assists, 39 points and 67 PIM in 39 games.

 As Daryl points out, Markus won't be joining the Pens for this year's
 playoffs, since the World Championships starts April 18th.

 But there is a good chance that Markus will join the Pens before next
 season. MoDo, though, naturally wants to keep their superstars Forsberg
 and Naslund, so the latest news on this is that MoDo is looking for
 personal sponsors for Forsberg and Naslund in order to match the kind
 of money they would receive in NHL.

 Actually, Swedish coach Curt Lundmark is thinking about leaving two
 spots open for additions from eliminated NHLers. It is Mats Sundin and
 Calle Johansson that Curt hopes can join the team, although in a late
 stage of the tournament. Technically, I seem to recall that you can leave
 spots open until 24 hrs before the WC final.

 Staffan


This is a two-sided problem. Unfortunately our culture has been deteriorating over time.
The "breeding" of these low-life's is getting worse; our justice system is at best
extremely weak to handle these problems. That is why low-abiding citizens should have
the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary
anywhere a threat is imminent.

My Camaro (my pride and joy) got stolen right out of my driveway a few years back.
The persons that did that were eventually caught (lucky for me!) but not before
having trashed the car.

On another occasion, on my way from Texas to Florida, I had stopped in a small motel
for the night in a small town somewhere in Florida. About 5 youths were disturbing my
car, setting off the alarm and challenging me to come out. When I and another tenant
walked out with a 357 Magnum and a 45 automatic respectively, they vanished.
Needless to say, I immediately packed-up and left.

Watch out for car-jacking and staged accidents. They can be deadly!


So if this study is proved wrong then it proves that heterosexuals
are liars? Unlike the propaganda spouted by the far right the ten
percent figure was backed up by the best study available at the time.
Its hardly certain that this new study is correct since it hasn't
even been out for enough time for any double checking to happen.

Of course if they had found 10% then it would be invalid because it
was funded by planned parenthood :)

Even if its "only" one million the point still stands. Even getting
1/6th of a given population in one place would be unprecidented.
If even 1 million show up in DC it will raise serious doubts about
this study, or indicate a resolve unprecidented in human history.

He isn't the target of the march, nor do presidents often speak at
civil rights marchs (of course it would have been nice). However
the republicans and conservative democrats would do well to take
notice.

This is quite amusing. Obviously you know nothing about the history
of math.


I must respectfully disagree with this assertion, Brad.  The government is
notoriously sloppy with physical, communications, and information security.  They
can't keep their computers safe, and they're "trying".  Read "DEA is
Not Adequately Protecting National Security Information" [GAO/IMTEC 92-31] for an
excellent example of what I'm talking about.

Private sector organizations tend to be even more lax in their security measures.
I believe that the escrow organizations will be penetrated by foreign
intelligence services within months, if not weeks, of their selection.  Private
organizations that lack the resources of a full-fleged intelligence service will
take longer - perhaps on the order of one to two years.  Nonetheless, the
penetrations will take place, without question.


Do you believe that any quacks exist?  How about quack diagnoses?  Is
being a "licensed physician" enough to guarantee that someone is not
a quack, or is it just that even if a licensed physician is a quack,
other people shouldn't say so?  Can you give an example of a
commonly diagnosed ailment that you think is a quack diagnosis,
or have we gotten to the point in civilization where we no longer
need to worry about unscrupulous "healers" taking advantage of
people.


Speaking of Psygnosis, they have licensed games to Philips Interative
Media International for CD-I.

The following was recently posted in a message in the CD-I section of
the Multimedia Forum.

"Seventh Guest has been licensed by Virgin Games to Philips Interactive
Media International for worldwide CD-I rights. Were also licensed to
P.I.M.I. Litil Divil from Gremlin Graphics (UK) and Microcosm from
Psygnosis (UK). Those three titles will be adapted on CD-I using the full
potential of the FMV cartridge, meaning, using the additional memory as
well as the motion video capabilities. Those titles have been negociated
in Europe but will be available worldwide.

Also, Lemmings 1 & 2 have been licensed from Psygnosis, as well as Striker
Soccer from Rage (UK)."

I don't know when these titles will be available or when work on them even
started (so don't expect your CD-I retailer to have them yet).

There was also some mention of future Nintendo CD-I games in an issue of the
UK magazine ERT - Mario Hotel was mentioned as having 75 levels.

Mark

[Although I work for Philips, I don't work on CD-I or multimedia. The above
info is just provided in good faith from what I've read and does not
represent any statement from Philips]


Thanks for posting this and making it available. This post will be LONG, I will
comment on most of it, and am reluctantly leaving all of the original in place
to provide context.

Please note that an alt. group has been set up for the Clipper stuff.

                                                     ^^^^^^^^^
Hum, AT&T, VLSI and Mykotronx are 'industry'?
Wonder what happened to IBM, this should be right up their street.
And a mandateed scheme is voluntary? Mr Orwell would love this.

                                                 ^^^^^^^^^

Telephone encryption and scrambleing are years behind digital ones like RSA,
IDEA, or even DES. The above, while literaly true, is a clasic straw-man claim
in the context of non-real-time circuits such as E-mail and the like.

I would modestly propose that a mandated use of ISDN would do more for commun-
ications than this lot.

Normmaly DES.

                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Note the use of the word "business" in the above. The whole tenor of this
release seems to be establishing a ground rule that only "business" use
is legitimate for debate. If you want the nothings you drop in your wife's
ear to remain secret and private, that is not even on the agenda for debate.
Note that there is NO role for you to contain private info in this. The only
reference is to information already in the hands of others. The 'unauthorized
release' bit is also drawing a long bow. Most of these cases are by people who
have legitimate access abusing it, and revealing, or often selling the info.
These people are, of course, in this proposal, the people who will have the
keys.

The criminals also use lawers, courts, the CIA, white-house officials and pens
to go about their business. When will they be outlawed as well? Yeah, several
of them would be a better idea than CLipper!

Them again, the protections of law and the courts have been seriously erroded
over the last decade ofr so.

                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NSA

Yeah, this bit is VERY true.

Note the repeated mixing of telephone scrabeling and encryption. A demo
of the above claim on an ordanary POTS would be a good nights entertainment
I suspect. Note also the 'many'. not 'all', as the general tone implies.

                                ^^^^^^^^^
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The case record seems to indicate that what is needed is a brutal tightening
of the current abuses. I have not heard, yet, of a case that was impeaded by
the use of secure encryption by the men in black. The other side, abuse by law
enforcers is well documented, even by govt agencies. And the phone vs other coms
is blurred yet again.

Lets run that line twice. Not **VERY** carefully what it says. The stated
purpose of the key eschrow is to make the use of Clipper compulsory. Note the
word "ensure". As to 'protect', or 'law-abiding', I will leave to you.
So to the person who asked if it included the outlawing of other encryptions,
the answer in this press release is, YES.

Just as they only can wiretap now with a warrent.

Just makes sure that the illegal ones are preserved.

Where do you find many experts. Any ex KGB people looking for a contract? :-)
And as a later posting asks, what of the STU-IIIs they already have. It will
be very interesting to see if the military and US embasies start to use it.
After all, it is secure, isn't it. The govt will answer that point by its own
actions.

                                                ^^^^^^^^

Again, personal use seems to be a unaskable question.

                                                  ^^^^^

Ah, so warrents are not always needed it seems.

The ITARs seem to slightly impeed this.

Note that all this wonderfull stuff will be in secret. Only the 'proper people'
will be able to express an opinion, hence only the desired result will emerge.

Encryption and codes have been around for millenia. They are generaly in
equilibrium with the technology of the time. The systematic study of cyphers
has resulted in a swing in favor of the encrypter, AT THE MOMENT. I have no
doubt that the factoring problem will fall in time. Probably fofr practical
purposes by the middle of the next century.

It is a little hard to critisise a non-proposal.

Note we drop back to 'phone-mode' again. If this is a true answer, it can be
rephrased as " It sucks big time. Anyone who can drive the crypt work-bench
will use it for light amusement before breakfast."

This link between the security of the key-eschrow, and the actual algorithm is
a real winner. Given that I have 2 secret 40 bit numbers, could someone please
explain how the details of an encryption algorithm will reveal them?

Just make sure you read the CVs REAL carfully, OK.

Quick, with out looking back, What name is missing from that list?

The people who agree with us and who think there is a buck in it for them.

The reverse engineering provisions of the 'Mask-work' act could be relevent
here.

You don't. Not unless you are one of the 'right people'.

They missed the word secret here. He needs a grammar lesson too.

I would say "less secure, less conveniant, more expensive ( PGP is free ),
less available, and more prone to being comprimised"
Proofs to the contarary will be welcome. Note PROOF.

They don't seem to be saying anything that makes much sense. And this proposal
DOES prohibit it except in a very limited way. And, this is the one explicit
reference to personal rights. It is a denial. And yes, I don't think that the
Mexicans, Brazilians, and Canucks are included in Clinton et als magnanamous
gesture.

The 'false tension' is false. The balance is between two repugnant points. The
RIGHT to privacy is hand-waved to non-existance by putting it behind the "false
assessment". It is assumed that the removal of the right to take what ever steps
YOU deem suitable to protect YOUR privacy is non negotiable, hence is defined
in the govenment language to be non-existant. If you don't agree, you must be a
criminal, as only criminals don't agree with out laws. Also note the non-
question. "If what is here was not possible..."

It indicates we know that Bush dropped the ball in squashing that nasty < insert
suitable retoric > and will stamp out this disorderly, unruley outbreak of
freedom and ultra-national sentiment.

This one is a real giggle. In Australia or France, they will have to reveal the
keys, and the algorithm. Don't think it's at the top of my list of things I must
have, so the restrictions will protect me from saleks trying to sell me a bill
of crock.

Any for any others using it, they must be nuts!

Good luck folks.


I recently acquired an AST Hot Shot 286 accellerator board for an 8088
sans documentation.

Does anyone know what the dip switches on the
back of the card do?

Did it come with software?

Any help or information about the card would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks,
Rob
--
Robert M. Bultman                              |
Speed Scientific School                        |
University of Louisville                       |
Internet: rmbult01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu |


The following 4 addresses are on the LymeNet mailing list, but are rejecting
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If you are listed here and would still like to remain on the list, please
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As a general rule, please remember to *unsubscribe* from all your mailing
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from many headaches.

Lezliel@Sitka.Sun.COM
Kenneth_R_Hall@Roch817.Xerox.COM
Westmx!ayoub@uunet.uu.net
Absol.absol.com!rsb@panix.COM
--
--


Our new Attorney General seems determined to do so. In the past

	She hopes the King beating will not reduce public confidince
	in law enforcement.

	The tactics of using tear gas and driving tanks through
	walls in Waco were intended to further a "peacefull solution"
	to the crisis.

	Those same tactics were intended to prevent a mass suicide,
	but she never expected the sect to react by killing themselves.

It's comforting to know, at least, that she wasn't Clinton's first
choice...


In three years of riding in the cities of San Jose,
Santa Clara, and Sunnyvale I never came into any
conflict with the local police over my lane splitting
habits (all three of these cities were listed earlier
as being anti-splitting in one way or another).  I
can't say whether this was due to luck, police
kindness, or there not actually being any ordinances
against it in these cities, so I continue.....


	Do I have to be the one to say it?

	DON'T BE SO STUPID AS TO LEAVE YOUR HELMET ON THE SEAT WHERE IT CAN
	FALL DOWN AND GO BOOM!

	That kind of fall is what the helmet is designed to protect against.
If you fall with the helmet on and you hit the same spot the helmet landed
on during the drop, the helmet may not protect your head as well as it was
intended to do.  Conservative rec.moto'ers will recommend that you replace
the helmet.  If you want to be sure that it will protect you adequately, you
should.

	HELMETS GO ON THE GROUND, ON A TABLE, ON A CHAIR, ON A SHELF, OR ON
	ANY OTHER SURFACE THAT IS LARGE ENOUGH TO SUPPORT THEM SO THAT THEY
	WILL NOT EASILY BE KNOCKED DOWN.

	Jeezus.  My new Shoei would be $340 to replace.  You think I'm going
to leave it to chance?

	Cripe.

Later,


I've been using the xrpc package for about a year now.  I believe I got it from
export.


I was wrong! I guess they are closer to $800 new! I will
probably still sell them for the above implied $300 obo.
Email me if you want more specifics. This is a really
attractive set of books, kind of a Bible encyclopedia set.
Also email me if you know more about these books or post
the information here.


So true.  I'm not sure of the basis of the belief, but it was a widely
held belief among the laity of the RC church and their support of it
lead to it being declared to be true.  Basically the teaching on infallibility
holds that the pope is infallible in matters of faith and doctrine, the
college of bishops is likewise infallible, and the laity is as well.
The pope gets most of the attention/criticism but the consensus of the
other bodies is equally infallible (according to RC teaching).


Does anyone know of any good shareware animation or paint software for an SGI
 machine?  I've exhausted everyplace on the net I can find and still don't hava
 a nice piece of software.

Thanks alot!

Chad


: From: brad@optilink.COM (Brad Yearwood)

: Assume in this case the usual canard-adversary of narcotraficantes.  They
: probably have more cash than the KGB did, and they're probably more generous
: at handing it out.  It will be easier than ever to find or cultivate Walkers
: and Pollards for the keys, and it will be easy enough to find someone to
: reverse-engineer the chip (unless the tamper proofing is damned clever and
: effective).

If the administration *really* believes big-time drug dealers are the threat
(personally I thought it was the CIA and the air force that did all the real
drug shipping :-) ) then they *ought* to take this seriously: unlike the
KGB, drug dealers can make a most convincing argument for cooperation: "help
us and we'll be nice and give you some money, don't help us and we'll start
cutting off your favourite body parts"

After all, it was probably an argument like that that persuaded Jack Ruby to
shoot Oswald in full view of the police.  Life in jail probably seems much
more preferable to most people than several weeks of something nasty
followed by no life at all...


Hello,

Can anyone give me their opinion on which system has got the best overall
system performance;

486/66DX2 with ISA-BUS or
486/50DX2 with EISA-BUS

The systems are equal in all other areas.

Thanks in advance

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jesper honig spring, spring@diku.dk |        IF ANIMALS BELIEVED IN GOD
university of copenhagen, denmark   |         THE DEVIL WOULD BE A MAN


I am looking for current sources for lists of all the home
medical tests currently legally available.
I believe this trend of allowing tests at home where
feasible, decreased medical costs by a factor of 10 or
more and allows the patient some time and privacy to
consider the best action from the results of such tests.
In fact I believe home medical tests and certain basic
tests for serious diseases such as cancer, heart disease,
should be offered free to the American public.
This could actually help to reduce national medical costs
since many would have an earlier opportunity to know
about and work toward recuperation or cure.
Mike Romano


SALE: VOICE PROCESSING SYSTEM for IBM compatibles

 Item:  DIALOGIC/41B Multi-line Voice Processing System

 Description: The DIALOG/41B is a PC XT/AT board that provides
    processing functions and call progress analysis for four
    independent phone lines simultaneously.  The D/41B features
    the ability to record, playback, autoanswer, auto-dial,
    detect and generate DTMF tones, and perform telephone
    mamagement functions.

    With this card you can make your computer talk on
    4 phone lines simultaneously.  You can design your own
    ANSWERING SYSTEM or by one already programmed.  You can build
    your own DIGITAL PAGER business and open up a business for
    VOICE MAILBOXES.

    Comes complete with manuals and demo software and programming
    libraries for C (UNIX and DOS).

  PRICE: LIST     $1395.00
         YOU PAY   $795.00

  For more info send mail!


	I must have missed the article on the Spagthorpe Viking.  Was
that the one with the little illuminated Dragon's Head on the front
fender, a style later copied by Indian, and the round side covers?

[accident deleted]

	You can forget this line of reasoning.  When an animal
decides to take you, there's nothing you can do about it.  It has
something to do with their genetics.  I was putting along at a
mere 20mph or so, gravel road with few loose rocks on it (as in,
just like bad concrete), and 2200lbs of swinging beef jumped a
fence, came out of the ditch, and rammed me!  When I saw her jump
the fence I went for the gas, since she was about 20 feet ahead
of me but a good forty to the side.  Damn cow literally chased me
down and nailed me.  No damage to cow, a bent case guard and a
severely annoyed rider were the only casualties.  If I had my
shotgun I'd still be eating steak.  Nope, if 2200lbs of cow
can hit me when I'm actively evading, forget a much more
manueverable dog.  Just run them over.


They don't move, to anybody much bigger than an electron :-)

noah


I am glad and proud to announce the new mailing-list for the PD Motif C++
bindings. I got over 40 replies in about one week of people interested in
such a list, and the software has now been properly installed, so the list
is now up and running. For those interested in joining, please send e-mail
to that extend to 'motif++-request@cv.ruu.nl' or 'rvloon@cv.ruu.nl'.

The blurb everyone who joins gets follows, as well as the original
announcement for where Motif++ can be obtained.

Enjoy!

8< - 8< -

Welcome to the Motif++ Mailing List!

The Motif++ mailing list is a mailing list dedicated to Motif++, the PD C++
wrapper library for Motif, where people can ask questions about Motif++,
swap stories, and give new ideas about new directions and improvements for the
bindings.

All requests of an administrative nature, like subscription, removal, etc.
should be directed to motif++-request@cv.ruu.nl

All e-mail sent to motif++@cv.ruu.nl will be sent to the entire list, so
please make sure when using 'vacation' type programs that will reply to
messages automatically, that the address for the mailing-list is excluded
from auto-replies.

Enjoy!

Ronald van Loon     | In theory, there is no difference
(rvloon@cv.ruu.nl)  | between theory and practice.
3DCV Group, Utrecht |
The Netherlands     | In practice however, there is.

8< - 8< -

Hello Motif World,

over the past half year there have been a lot of relatively minor changes to
the Motif++ bindings. Imake support has been improved, a few defaults have
been changed, and a lot of other small things have been added.

This is basically a release which drops the 'gamma' status. Next release will
incorporate some improvements by Stefan Schwarz, and possibly will support
X11R5 and Motif 1.2.x.

Note to all of those who keep copies of the archive: please retrieve this
distribution (during off-peak hours), and delete all previous copies.

Here is the original ANNOUNCEMENT:

HISTORY

The University of Lowell, supported by a grant of the Open Software Foundation,
has developed a wrapper-library, that encapsulates Motif widgets in C++
classes. All resources of these Widgets can now be set through
member-functions, while objects can be used in callback-functions. The library
was made available for free or nominal cost for anonymous ftp at 129.63.1.1.
However, the library contained a large number of bugs and oversights, and only
worked under X11R3. Due to lack of subsequent fundings, the bindings are no
longer actively supported by the University of Lowell.

I, Ronald van Loon, at a certain point last year, have taken the Lowell
bindings, fixing the bugs I came across, adding missing memberfunctions, and
enhancing functionality and made the bug-fixed library available for the
general public for anonymous ftp (made possible by Rick Murphy at DEC).

NEW RELEASE

I am now pleased to announce a new and updated release of the Motif++
bindings.

This release offers:

- Full Motif1.1 and X11R4 support
- Support for Xbae widgetset
- Two additional widgets, written by myself, that can be used to indicate
  progress in an application.
- Imake support. NB: this release relies heavily on the existence of imake
		     and its config files on your site. I have tried to
		     provide the bindings with a standard Makefile, tweakable
		     for those unfortunates without imake. I have not severely
		     tested the standard Makefile though. Contact me if you
		     have problems. The reason for calling this a gamma
		     release lies in the fact that I do not have a multitude
		     of platforms to test the Imake-files on.
- Lots of testfiles (even somewhat useful programs)
- An article I wrote on the usage of Motif, X and C++, previously posted
  on Usenet.

WHERE TO GET THE NEW MOTIF BINDINGS

Ftp:

Anonymous ftp at decuac.dec.com (192.5.214.1), directory /pub/X11.

Note:

Please be patient as the network link is quite slow. Please do not FTP large
files during working hours.

Also note that there is also a motif++.31.jan.92.tar.Z file at this site; this
is an old version of the bindings.

E-mail:

Those who don't have ftp can send me e-mail, and I will send the bindings by
e-mail.

REQUEST

Those who use the bindings and find bugs, or see room for improvement, please
contact me, and I will try to incorporate them in a future release (in case of
bugs, a bug-fix of course ;-).

MORE INFORMATION

Contact me at "rvloon@cv.ruu.nl".
If you are desperate, then you can call me at
+31 30 506711 (that is Utrecht, the Netherlands; those within the Netherlands
call 030-506711).

Enjoy!


eu> Apple does not authorise sales through Mail Order.  As a result mail
  eu> order companies have to obtain their machines by the grey market.
  eu>
  eu> This market is supplied with machines from authorised resellers who
  eu> have more machines than they can sell.  They come into this state of
  eu> affairs by overordering either accidentally or deliberatly to get a
  eu> better wholsale price from Apple.  In either case they often obscure
  eu> the serial nunber to protect their identity.  As a result the warranty
  eu> is void.

I have ordered several Macs from different mail order companies with absolutely zero problem. You have to dig around to find the true gray market dealers that sell Macs with authentic serial numbers untouched. There are value-added dealers (nothing to do with VAT, no flame please) that are very legitimate.

CDA unfortunately is one of those that replace the serial number with their own to prevent Apple from tracing which authorized dealer sold that machine to CDA.


oh, i see. electricity is a natural right & our wonderful government
would -never- cut off the power to the people they were besieging.
are you really this dumb, or just acting like it for the sake of
argument?

jason


Is this the same Monolithic, Centrally Controlled Media that you're always
talking about? Do you mean to tell me that the LA Times is the ONLY major
paper to buck the Media Spiking Division's activities?

Assumption: When one major newspaper prints three or more articles on the front
page regarding subject matter that is not strictly local, this is likely
to be considered an open story, and not a coverup.

Let's hear a roll call here. Anyone outside of the LA area seen articles on
this?

___Samuel___
Mossad Special Agent ID314159
Media Spiking & Mind Control Division
Los Angeles Offices (therefore, evidently, incompetent)


Haven't seen this one on here yet, so here it goes:

B. arely
A. dequate,
T. otally
F. ***ed!

  I don't know about adequate, but it fits the acronym.  =)

--
Andrew Diederich                    diederic@spot.colorado.edu


Ethnocentric USian that I am, I've assumed that we and the
xUSSR were the only countries with significant capabilities to track
non-cooperative objects in low Earth orbit. Grazing in a couple of
databases recently,  I found that Japan has some optical capabilities
along this line, and also uses a radar designed for other purposes
for orbital debris surveys (it isn't clear whether the radar can
determine orbital elements for the objects it detects). Abstracts of
the articles are appended.

    This leads to the more general question: do yet other people than
the US, Russia, and Japan do space surveillance, and if so, how and
why?

Allen Thomson              SAIC                        McLean, VA, USA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                         ABSTRACTS

Optical tracking of the experimental geodetic satellite (EGS)
TAKABE, MASAO; ITABE, TOSHIKAZU; ARUGA, TADASHI
Radio Research Laboratory, Review (ISSN 0033-801X), vol. 34,
March 1988, p. 23-34. In Japanese, with abstract in English.
     This paper reports the optical tracking results of EGS
(experimental geodetic satellite) which was launched on August 13,
1986, by NASDA. The EGS optical tracking experiment process and an
outline of the Radio Research Laboratory (RRL) optical ground       <----
station are discussed. A star tracking technique for optical
equipment calibration and satellite tracking technique for orbit
prediction improvement are also described. The accuracy of EGS
tracking data obtained by RRL at the request of NASDA is also
discussed. In addition, it is briefly demonstrated that the
position of the Japanese amateur satellite (JAS-1) which was
launched with the EGS, was accurately determined by means of a      <----
satellite tracking video. It is clear from this experiment that     <----
optical observation data (i.e., satellite direction data) are very  <----
useful for satellite orbit determination during initial launch      <----
stages. Furthermore, the results confirm the effectivenes of these  <----
two satellite optical tracking techniques.                          <----

MU radar measurements of orbital debris
SATO, TORU; KAYAMA, HIDETOSHI; FURUSAWA, AKIRA; KIMURA, IWANE
(Kyoto University, Japan)
AIAA, NASA, and DOD, Orbital Debris Conference: Technical Issues and
Future Directions, Baltimore, MD, Apr. 16-19, 1990. 10 p.
RPN: AIAA PAPER 90-1343
     Distributions of orbital debris versus height and scattering cross
section are determined from a series of observations made with a high-
power VHF Doppler radar (MU radar) of Japan. An automated data
processing algorithm has been developed to discriminate echoes of
orbiting objects from those of undesired signals such as meteor trail
echoes or lightning atmospherics. Although the results are preliminary,
they showed good agreement with those from NORAD tracking radar      <----
observations using a much higher frequency. It is found that the     <----
collision frequency of a Space Station of 1 km x 1 km size at an
altitude of 500 km with orbiting debris is expected to be as high as
once per two years.

Monitoring of the MU radar antenna pattern by Satellite Ohzora (EXOS-C)
SATO, T.; INOOKA, Y.; FUKAO, S. (Kyoto Univ., Japan); KATO, S.
Kyoto Univ., Uji (Japan). Radio Atmospheric Science Center.
In International Council of Scientific Unions, Middle Atmosphere Program.
Handbook for MAP, Vol. 20 5 p
Publication Date: Jun. 1986
      As the first attempt among MST (mesosphere stratosphere
troposphere) type radars, the MU (middle and upper atmosphere) radar
features an active phased array system. Unlike the conventional large
VHF radars, in which output power of a large vacuum tube is distributed
to individual antenna elements, each of 475 solid state power amplifier
feeds each antenna element. This system configuration enables very fast
beam steering as well as various flexible operations by dividing the
antenna into independent subarrays, because phase shift and signal
division/combination are performed at a low signal level using
electronic devices under control of a computer network. The antenna
beam can be switched within 10 microsec to any direction within the
zenith angle of 30 deg. Since a precise phase alignment of each element
is crucial to realize the excellent performance of this system, careful
calibration of the output phase of each power amplifier and antenna
element was carried out. Among various aircraft which may be used for
this purpose artificial satellites have an advantage of being able to
make a long term monitoring with the same system. An antenna pattern
monitoring system for the MU radar was developed using the scientific
satellite OHZORA (EXOS-C). A receiver named MUM (MU radar antenna
Monitor) on board the satellite measures a CW signal of 100 to 400
watts transmitted from the MU radar. The principle of the measurement
and results are discussed.


+>and since the US constitutions guarantees the right to every American
+>to bear arms, why is not every American entitled, as a matter of
+
+Have you read the applicable part of the Constitution and interpreted it IN
+CONTEXT?  If not, please do so before posting this misinterpretation again.
+It refers to the right of the people to organize a militia, not for individuals
+to carry handguns, grenades, and assault rifles.

Hmmm, this could become a flame war very quickly.  The text is "...well
regulated militia..."  When that amendment was written and approved,
"regulated" meand "armed".  Remember all of those Westerns where bounty
hunters were called "regulators"?  This is now an archaic usage of the
word, but the original intent of the amendment was about weapons, not
control.

My $0.02.


As I have read this net the last few days, I am continually amazed at the
pronouncements of baseball prowess by many individuals.  Especially when it
comes down to saying that the Bosox haven't a prayer.  As a long time Red Sox
fan, I will simply say:  The Impossible Dream Year - 1967 for those of you
with short memories. short lives, or both.

To be a Red Sox fan is to continually be the subject of abuse and criticism
from those who only follow 'the hot team'.  This statement is supported based
on the increased number of 'Brave Woofers' out on the net.  A true fan of a
team, any team, will follow that team through the good years as well as the lean
years, and be amply rewarded when the time is right.

Yeah, so what if Buckner let a roller go through his legs in `86.  Who cares if
Clemens told Cooley to go piss up a rope and promptly earned a quick shower.  The
fact is, they were one of the best teams in the league those years and the fans
supported them.  Now that it appears that they are on lean times, the number of
detracters come from all over.  So what!  Let them play and we will see what
happens come September.  The Red Sox may not be that good, but they are certainly
not that bad, either and they do have a chance to win the World Series, after all,
remember the `69 Mets?  Who would have given them a chance to even make it that
far, let alone beat Baltimore.

Let's face it, Baseball is a wonderful game and is far more unpredictable than Football
and Basketball.  Because of this, one can never say with absolute certainity what
the outcome will be over the course of 162 games.


Ed Campion
Headquarters, Washington, D.C.                             April 23, 1993
(Phone:  202/358-1780)

Kyle Herring
Johnson Space Center, Houston
(Phone:  713/483-5111)

RELEASE:  93-76

HUBBLE TELESCOPE SERVICING MISSION SCHEDULED FOR ELEVEN DAYS

	The December flight of Endeavour on Space Shuttle mission STS-61 to
service the Hubble Space Telescope (HST) has been scheduled as an 11 day
mission designed to accommodate a record five spacewalks with the capability
for an additional two, if needed.

	The decision to schedule five extravehicular activities, or EVAs, was
reached following extensive evaluations of underwater training, maneuver times
required using the Shuttle's robot arm based on software simulations and actual
EVA tasks on previous missions.

	"Basically what we've done by going to five EVAs rather than three is
to repackage our margin so that we have the capability to respond to the
dynamics, or unknowns, of spacewalks," Mission Director Randy Brinkley said.
"It improves the probabilities for mission success while providing added
flexibility and adaptability for reacting to real-time situations."

	In laying out the specific tasks to be completed on each of the
spacewalks, officials have determined that changing out the gyros, solar arrays
and the Wide Field/Planetary Camera (WF/PC) and installing the Corrective
Optics Space Telescope Axial Replacement (COSTAR) are priority objectives
during the mission.

	"When we looked at accomplishing all of the tasks, highest through
lowest priority, and recognizing that the major tasks -- gyros, solar arrays,
WF/PC and COSTAR -- would consume most of the time set aside for each
spacewalk, five EVAs were deemed appropriate," said Milt Heflin, Lead Flight
Director for the mission.

	While the five spacewalks will be unprecedented, the use of two
alternating spacewalk teams will alleviate placing more stress on the crew than
previous missions requiring two, three or four EVAs.

	"We have paid close attention to lessons learned during previous
spacewalks and factored these into our timeline estimates for five EVAs,"
Heflin said.  "In planning for all Space Shuttle missions, it is necessary to
formulate a work schedule that represents as realistic a timeline as possible
to accomplish the mission objectives."

	Planning currently calls for at least five water tank training sessions
that include support from the Mission Control Center, called joint integrated
simulations, lasting between 10 and 36 hours.  In addition, many stand alone
underwater training "runs" will practice individual tasks in each spacewalk.

	Various refinements to the specific tasks on each spacewalk will be
made based on actual training experience during the months prior to the
mission.  Also, lessons learned from other spacewalks leading up to the flight
will be valuable in assisting the STS-61 crew in its training techniques.

	Endeavour's June flight and Discovery's July mission both will include
spacewalks to evaluate some of the unique tools to be used on the HST mission.
The evaluations will help in better understanding the differences between the
actual weightlessness of space and the ground training in the water tanks at
the Johnson Space Center, Houston, and the Marshall Space Flight Center,
Huntsville, Ala.

	Also, the inflight spacewalking experiences will assist in gaining
further insight into the time required for the various tasks and expand the
experience levels among the astronaut corps, the flight controllers and
trainers.

	Designed to be serviced by a Space Shuttle crew, Hubble was built with
grapple fixtures and handholds to assist in the capture and repair procedures.

	The telescope was launched aboard Discovery in April 1990.  At that
time the NASA mixed fleet manifest showed the first revisit mission to HST in
1993 to change out science instruments and make any repairs that may have
become necessary.


Mr. Hernandez Ñ-

   I apologize for the misunderstanding.  I explained that I know that it
is essential for some fans to get scores here, for they cannot get them
elsewhere.  I have no problem with what you do, posting scores AFTER the
games have been completed.  However, like I said earlier, I don't think it
is a necessity to post scores during the middle of games, like some others
have come to practice.


Not any more so than

      holding people against their will is wrong
      if you hold people against their will we will punish you
      our punishment will be to hold you against your will

Is there any punishment which isn't something which, if done by a private
person to another private person for no apparent reason, would lead to
punishment?  (Fines, I suppose.)


Why not? I believe both the Devils and Islanders got 87 points.
Say for example, another team had this record : 20-37-47;
they had 20*2+47*1+37*0=87 which is the same as their points total.
(The Islanders' and Devils' records are both 40-37-7.

It is simple arithmetics and involve no Calculus.


Does anybody have a GIF of the Tiger Stadium seating chart?  Thanks!
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Curran                 Mead Data Central              brian@meaddata.com


[deletia- and so on]

I seem to have been rather unclear.

What I was asking is this:

Please show me that the most effective substance-absure recovery
programs involve meetinsg peoples' spiritual needs, rather than
merely attempting to fill peoples' spiritual needs as percieved
by the people, A.A, S.R.C. regulars, or snoopy. This will probably
involve defining "spritual needs" (is it not that clear) and
showing that such things exist and how they can be filled.

Annother tack you might take is to say that "fulfilling spiritual
needs" means "acknowledging a "higher power" of some sort, then
show that systems that do require this, work better than otherwise
identical systems that do not. A correlation here would help you,
but as you point out this might just be demonstrating swapping
one crutch for annother. (however, I do feel that religion is
usually a better crutch than alchohol, as it is not usually
poisonous! :) )

I hope with that clarification, my question will be answerable. I actually
did know about the 12 step program, its the question of what it does,
rather than what it tries to do, that makes a difference to me.
---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0


Well, I thought it must have been a joke, but I don't get the
joke in the name. Read it aloud? David MACaloon. David MacALLoon.
David macalOON. I don't geddit.


FOR SALE: Pen-based electronic organizer --
Brand-new Sharp Wizard OZ-9600 (with PC link software and cable)

 -15 ounces, measures 7"x4"x1" (fits in most pockets)
 -256k RAM, 125k available to user
 -pen/touch-screen input for pointing and drawing
 -keyboard big enough to touch-type on
 -320x240 screen
 -windows/pop-up menus
 -excellent scheduler with alarms
 -3 telephone directories
 -3 user-configurable databases
 -full word-processor with formatting
 -drawing utility
 -outliner
 -to-do list
 -calculator
 -clock/calendar
 -terminal emulatorw/ dialing directory
 -directory/filing system
 -serial port/infrared port/IC card slot
 -uses 4 AAA batteries (about 3 months of daily use)
 -All manuals

Organizer Link II
 -software and cable for exchanging data between Wizard and a PC

 $480 or best offer for both.     I'll pay shipping.

				Steven M Friedman
				Horizon Institute for Policy Solutions


Time once again to clean out the ol' closet.  Some stuff is up for offers, some
isn't.  Please read carefully.

In the MAKE OFFER department:

	WordPerfect 5.0, upgrade copy.  Includes all disks and all upgrade
	manuals.  Best offer.

	Balance of Power, 1992 edition, for the Amiga.  With manual and reg.
	card.  Best offer.

In the FOR SALE department:

	Technics model 715 auto-reverse open-reel STEREO tape deck.  Because
	it's auto-reverse, this deck records onto tape just like a cassette
	deck does, so it's not very good for splice-type editing.  However,
	I have used it effectively in "tape studio" applications for mastering,
	and it works great.  3.75 and 7.5 ips speeds, supports up to 7" reels.
	Dual lighted VU meters with record indicators.  Full auto-reverse
	capable (and the mechanism works, too!).  Adjustable sound on sound,
	and socket for remote control (I don't know where you'd find one, but
	they used to make 'em), plus a 110VAC unswitched outlet.  This unit
	is in excellent condition and I have had it rebuilt once since I got
	it--works perfectly.

	Price:  $225.00 or best offer, or possible trade (see below).

	Panasonic KX-P1624 printer.  24-pin with 360x360dpi resolution in both
	text and graphics modes.  Warranty cards, manuals, all the usual stuff
	you expect when buying like-new merchandise.  I'm selling it because I
	now have a better printer.  This is the wide carriage version of the
	KX-P1124, by the way.  Test prints are available upon request.

	Price:  $250.00 o.b.o. or trade.

	Excalibur custom pool cue.  19 oz., 13 mm, brass joint, Irish linen
	wrap, could use a new tip but will hold up for a while.  I've got too
	many cues as it is, and don't need this one.  Hits nicely, is very
	straight and in excellent condition.

	Price:  $125.00 o.b.o. or trade.  Imperial hard case (1 butt/1 shaft)
	available for an additional $40.00.

TRADES:  I need the following things, and I have no cash of my own right now,
so if you want to trade, it needs to be straight-across.   The list:

	Amiga ROM upgrade to at LEAST 2.04, preferably 2.1+, with appropriate
	DOS and Workbench.

	1 meg Agnus chip for the Amiga.

	Amiga hard drive and controller (preferably SCSI).

	IBM-compatible hard drive (and controller if not MFM).  This one's
	touchy, as I have a full-height and don't have room for more unless
	I swap out--needs to be above 100M, and I will consider trading a
	good ST-4096 in the deal.

	Intel 9600EX or 14.4EX or similar EXTERNAL high-speed modem.


That's one.  Any others?

Then they should have used a different advert.

I'm both.  I've made some $4k worth of PC products purchasing
decisions for one company I'm affiliated with in the past 6 months
alone.  (In a delicious bit of irony, an interesting fraction went to
suppliers that I suspect got my mailing address from these people.)
More is in the pipeline right now.

If they wanted to discuss these sorts of things, upfront is the
way to do it.

And who issues that "VIP Code"?  (That policy implementation in the
running for this week's "silly twit" award.)  BTW - It turns out that
I have several VIP codes.  Here's the one I'm using for these sorts of
things: "6".  (If you want one, send me mail and I'll put you in touch
with the folks who do the application interview; if you qualify....)

-andy


Hello,

Anyone know of any source code I can get to either create window
dumps in GIF format, or convert an XWD (x window dump) file
into a GIF? Really could be any format I can manipulate in DOS,
i.e. PCX, BMP, etc.

later,

shane


First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you).
	What I resent is ignorant statements that call people
names when they disagree with your position. Opposing the
atrocities commited by the Israeli governement hardly qualifies
as anti-semitism. If you think name calling is a valid form of
argument in intellectual circles, you need to get out more
often.
	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
not appreciated.


What the hell do you know about Israeli policy?  What gives you the fiat
to look into the minds of Israeli generals?  Has this 'policy of intimidation'
been published somewhere?  For your information, the actions taken by Arabs,
specifically the PLO, were not uncommon in the Lebanon Campaign of 1982.  My
brain is full of shit?  At least I don't look into the minds of others and
make Israeli policy for them!

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  We all suffer.  It's too bad that civilians get killed but
I will blame their Arab leaders who put them in positions of danger before I
will blame the Israelis.  Just like Palestinians who send their children into
warzones to throw rocks at armed Israeli soldiers.  What irresponsible parents!
As Golda Meir said, peace will only come when the Arabs start loving their
children more than they hate the Jews.


A local dealer is advertising "No negotiation necessary!"
Make you wonder...


(Soner Yamen) responded to article <1r20kr$m9q@nic.umass.edu> BURAK@UCSVAX.

[AFS]     Just a quick comment::
[AFS]
[AFS]     Armenians killed Turks------Turks killed Armenians.
[AFS]
[AFS]     Simple as that. Can anybody deny these facts?

Jews killed Germans in WWII -- Germans killed Jews in WWII, BUT there was
quite a difference in these two statements, regardless of what Nazi
revisionists say!

[SY] My grand parents were living partly in todays Armenia and partly in
[SY] todays Georgia. There were villages, Kurd/Turk (different Turkic groups)
[SY] Georgian (muslim/christian) Armenian and Farsi... Very near to eachother.
[SY] The people living there were aware of their differences. They were
[SY] different people. For example, my grandfather would not have been happy
[SY] if his doughter had willed to marry an Armenian guy. But that did not
[SY] mean that they were willing to kill eachother. No! They were neighbors.

OK.

[SY] Armenians killed Turks. Which Armenians? Their neoghbors? As far as my
[SY] grandparents are concerned, the Armenians attacked first but these
[SY] Armenians were not their neighbors. They came from other places. Maybe
[SY] first they had a training at some place. They were taught to kill people,
[SY] to hate Turks/Kurds? It seems so...

There is certainly a difference between the planned extermination of the
Armenians of eastern Turkey beginning in 1915, with that of the Armeno-
Georgian conflicts of late 1918! The argument is not whether Armenians ever
killed in their collective existence, but rather the wholesale destruction of
Anatolian Armenians under orders of the Turkish government. An Armenian-
Georgian dispute over the disposition of Akhalkalak, Lori, and Pambak after
the Turkish Third Army evacuated the region, cannot be equated with the
extermination of Anatolian Armenians. Many Armenians and Georgians died
in this area in the scramble to re-occupy these lands and the lack of
preparation for the winter months. This is not the same as the Turkish
genocide of the Armenians nearly four years earlier, hundreds of kilometers
away!

[SY] Anyway, but after they killed/raped/... Turks and other muslim people
[SY] around, people assumed that 'Armenians killed us, raped our women',
[SY] not a particular group of people trained in some camps, maybe backed
[SY] by some powerful states... After that step, you cannot explain these
[SY] people not to hate all Armenians.

I don't follow, perhaps the next paragraph will shed some light.

[SY] So what am I trying to point out? First, at least for that region,
[SY] you cannot blame Turks/Kurds etc since it was a self defense situation.
[SY] Most of the Armenians, I think, are not to blame either. But since some
[SY] people started that fire, it is not easy to undo it. There are facts.
[SY] People cannot trust eachother easily. It is very difficult to establish
[SY] a good relation based on mutual respect and trust between nations with
[SY] different ethnic/cultural/religious backgrounds but it is unfortunately
[SY] very easy to start a fire!

Again, the fighting between Armenians and Georgians in 1918/19 had little to
do with the destruction of the Armenians in Turkey. It is interesting that
the Georgian leaders of the Transcaucasian Federation (Armenia, Azerbaijan,
and Georgia) made special deals with Turkish generals not to pass through
Tiflis on their way to Baku, in return for Georgians not helping the Armenians
militarily. Of course, as Turkish troops marched across what was left of
Caucasian Armenia, many Armenians went north and such population movement
caused problems with the locals. This is in no comparison with events 4 years
earlier in eastern Anatolia. My father's mother's family escaped Cemiskezek ->
Erzinka -> Erzerum -> Nakhitchevan -> Tiflis -> Constantinople ->
Massachusetts.

[SY] My grandparents were *not* bloodthirsty people. We did not experience
[SY] what they had to endure... They had to leave their lands, there were
[SY] ladies, old ladies, all of her children killed while she forced to
[SY] witness! Young women put dirt at their face to make themselves
[SY] unattractive! I don't want to go into any graphic detail.

My grandmother's brother was forced to dress up as a Kurdish women, and paste
potato skins on his face to look ugly. The Turks would kill any Armenian
young man on sight in Dersim. Because their family was rather influential,
local Kurds helped them escape before it was too late. This is why I am alive
today.

[SY] You may think that my sources are biased. They were biased in some sense.
[SY] They experienced their own pain, of course. That is the way it is.  But
[SY] as I said they were living in peace with their neighbors before. Why
[SY] should they become enemies?


Here is a press release from the White House.

 President Clinton's Remarks On Waco With Q/A
 To: National Desk
 Contact: White House Office of the Press Secretary, 202-456-2100

   WASHINGTON, April 20 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Following are
remarks by President Clinton in a question and answer session
with the press (Part 2 of 2):

     Go ahead, Sarah.

     Q  There are two questions I want to ask you.  The
first is, I think that they knew very well that the children did not
have gas masks while the adults did, so the children had no chance
because this gas was very -- she said it was not lethal, but it was
very dangerous to the children and they could not have survived
without gas masks.  And on February 28th -- let's go back -- didn't
those people have a right to practice their religion?

     THE PRESIDENT:  They were not just practicing their
religion, they were -- the Treasury Department believed that they had
violated federal laws, any number of them.

     Q  What federal laws --

     THE PRESIDENT:  Let me go back and answer -- I can't
answer the question about the gas masks, except to tell you that the
whole purpose of using the tear gas was that it had been tested; they
were convinced that it wouldn't kill either a child or an adult but
it would force anybody that breathed it to run outside.  And one of
the things that I've heard -- I don't want to get into the details of
this because I don't know -- but one of the things that they were
speculating about today was that the wind was blowing so fast that
the windows might have been opened and some of the gas might have
escaped and that may be why it didn't have the desired effect.

     They also knew, Sarah, that there was an underground
compound -- a bus buried underground where the children could be
sent.  And they were -- I think they were hoping very much that if
the children were not released immediately outside that the humane
thing would be done and that the children would be sent someplace
where they could be protected.

     In terms of the gas masks themselves, I learned
yesterday -- I did not ask this fact question before -- that the gas
was supposed to stay active in the compound longer than the gas masks
themselves were to work.  So that it was thought that even if they
all had gas masks, that eventually the gas would force them out in a
nonviolent, nonshooting circumstance.

     MS. MYERS:  Last question.

     Q  Mr. President, why are you still saying that --

     Q  Could you tell us whether or not you ever asked
Janet Reno about the possibility of a mass suicide?  And when you
learned about the actual fire and explosion what went through your
mind during those horrendous moments?

     THE PRESIDENT:  What I asked Janet Reno is if they had
considered all the worse things that could happen.  And she said --
and, of course, the whole issue of suicide had been raised in the
public -- he had -- that had been debated anyway.  And she said that
the people who were most knowledgeable  about these kinds of issues
concluded that there was no greater risk of that now than there would
be tomorrow or the next day or the day after that or at anytime in
the future.  That was the judgment they made.  Whether they were
right or wrong, of course, we will never know.

     What happened when I saw the fire, when I saw the
building burning?  I was sick.  I felt terrible.  And my immediate
concern was whether the children had gotten out and whether they were
escaping or whether they were inside, trying to burn themselves up.
That's the first thing I wanted to know.

     Thank you.

     Q  Mr. President, why are you still saying it was a
Janet Reno decision?  Isn't it, in the end, your decision?

     THE PRESIDENT:  Well, what I'm saying is that I didn't
have a four- or five-hour, detailed briefing from the FBI.  I didn't
go over every strategic part of it.  It is a decision for which I
take responsibility.  I'm the President of the United States and I
signed off on the general decision and giving her the authority to
make the last call.  When I talked to her on Sunday, some time had
elapsed.  She might have made a decision to change her mind.  I said,
if you decide to go forward with this tomorrow, I will support you.
And I do support her.

     She is not ultimately responsible to the American
people; I am.  But I think she has conducted her duties in an
appropriate fashion and she has dealt with this situation I think as
well as she could have.

     Thank you.  (Applause.)