Sorry if this is a FAQ.  I don't normally read comp.sys.mac.hardware.
I am purchasing a couple of Centris 650's.  I configured the systems
as follows:

	Eight (8) Mb RAM
	Ethernet
	1 Mb VRAM
	Math CoProcessor option

My purchasing agent told me about the math coprocessor option and sent
me the Apple summary documentation to prove it.  I ordered the coprocessor
option, but I'm really not sure that we needed it.  I thought the '040 chip
had a math coprocessor built into it.  Has Apple had a math coprocessor chip
architectured to keep up with the speed of the '040 chip in the Centris 650?
I am concerned that I may have set up a hardware bottleneck.  Please send your
responses to:  David_Anthony_Guevara@cup.portal.com.  I will summarize if there
is enough interest.  Thanks!


Dial 511 and it sound tell you the number.


	Yes.  But the point is that prices are competetive.  Saturn may
well be selling a car intended on giving the dealer a $2000 profit, but
since a comperable Honda with $500 profit is more expensive, it may be well
worth it to buy the Saturn.

	Not necessarily.  It seems to me that Saturn salesdroids, who don't
make a commision, whereas their counterparts at other dealerships generally
do, make more $$ per hour or whatever.  This means that Saturn doesn't give up
the profit to their employees through commision, which IS taken out of per-
car profits.  They just pass it along to less pressureing salesmen/women.

	Maybe.  Maybe not.  Depends on accounting practices.  I'd rather pay
more for dealer service that doesn't cut corners to contain costs...

$2/100
CKA
'87 (Carolina) Blue Honda Civic DX


As has been noted before, there is the distinction between _motivation_
and _method_.  No experimental result should be accepted unless it is
described in sufficient detail to be replicated, and the replications
do indeed reproduce the result.  No theoretical argument should be
accepted unless it is presented in sufficient detail to be followed, and
reasonable, knowlegeable, people agree with the force of the logic.

But people try experiments, and pursue arguments, for all sorts of crazy
reasons.  Irrational motivations are not just curiousities; they are a
large part of the history of science.

There are a couple of negative points to make here:

1) A theory of qi could, conceivably, become accepted without direct
verification of the existence of qi.  For example, quarks are an accepted
part of the standard model of physics, with no direct verification.  What
would be needed would be a theory, based on qi, that predicted medical
reality better than the alternatives.  The central theoretical claim could
lie forever beyond experiment, as long as there was a sufficient body of
experimental data that the qi theory predicted better than any other.

(I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the triumph of qi, though.
I don't think that there is even a coherent theory based on it, much less
a theory that explains anything at all better than modern biology.  And it
is hard to imagine a qi theory that would not predict some way of rather
directly verifying the existence of qi.)

2) Science has not historically progressed in any sort of rational
experiment-data-theory sequence.  Most experiments are carried out, and
interpreted, in pre-existing theoretical frameworks.  The theoretical
controversies of the day determine which experiments get done.  Overall,
there is a huge messy affair of personal jealousies, crazy motivations,
petty hatreds, and the like that determines which experiments, and which
computations, get done.  What keeps it going forward is the critical
function of science: results don't count unless they can be replicated.

The whole system is a sort of mechanism for generate-and-test.  The generate
part can be totally irrational, as long as the test part works properly.

Pasteur could believe whatever he liked about chemical activity and crystals;
but even Mitscherlich had to agree that racemic acid crystals were handed;
that when you separate them by handedness, you get two chemicals that rotate
polarized light in opposite directions; and the right-rotating version was
indistinguishable from tartaric acid.  Pasteur's irrational motivation had
led to a replicable, and important, result.

This is where Lysenko, creationists, etc. fail.  They have usually not
even produced coherent theories that predict much of anything.  When their
theories do predict, and are contradicted by experiment, they do not
concede the point and modify their theories; rather they try to suppress
the results (Lysenko) or try to divert attention to other evidence they
think supports their position (creationists).


In the FBI briefing, no mention was made of having the fire starters in
custody.
not

Why not his mother?  Why not the media?

_______________________________________________________________________________
_
System."

--
jmd@handheld.com


By initiating a DMA xfer.  :)

Seriously, busmastering adapter have their own DMA ability, they don't use
the motherboards on-board DMA(which is *MUCH* slower).

ISA has no bus arbitration, so if two busmastering cards in 1 ISA system
try to do DMA xfers on the same DMA channel the system will lock or
crash.(I forget)

Their are 8 DMA channels in an ISA system. 0-7. 0-3 are 8-bit & 4-7 are
16-bit.

The system uses DMA 0, a SoundBlaster uses DMA 1.

I could buy a busmastering XGA-2 video card & a busmastering SCSI HA.

In order for them to work properly, I would have to find out what DMA
channel the XGA-2 card uses and then simply configure the SCSI HA to
use a different DMA channel for its DMA xfers.

I don't know if multiple DMA xfers can go on at the same time on ISA.
I'm not sure if they can on EISA systems either.

I do know that on EISA/MCA systems, you can allow BM cards to use the
same DMA channel.


Your kidding, $210.00, man o man, you can buy the system new for $49.00 at
Electronic Boutique and those games are only about $15 - $20.00 brand new.
Maybe you should think about that price again if you REALLY need the money.

                        -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                            Wayne State University

                                Steve Teolis
                             6050 Cass Ave. # 238
                              Detroit, MI  48202


I have one round-trip ticket good for travel between USA or Canada and
Europe, Hawaii, Latin America, or the Caribbean.  It is fully transferable
and can be used originating here or there.

I had intended  to use it to visit my grandfather who was sick, but he died
before I got there so I have no use for it now.

I'm looking for $500 or best offer, but act fast it will be gone on April 15
no matter what.


We will be holding a bake and craft sale at Communiversity in Princeton on
Nassau Street, Saturday April 24th 12-4 p.m. to benefit the Recurrent
Respiratory Papillomatosis Foundation, a nonprofit foundation established to
encourage research toward a cure for Recurrent Respiratory Papillomatosis.  Our
three year old daughter suffers from this disease.  Below is a press release
that appeared in local newspapers.  Hope you can join us.

On Saturday, April 24 as part of Communiversity in Princeton, a local family
will be having a bake and craft sale to raise money for and create public
awareness about a rare disease called Recurrent Respiratory Papillomatosis.

Bill and Marlene Stern's daughter Lindsay is afflicted with this disease
characterized by tumors attacking the inside of the larynx, vocal cords and
trachea.  Caused by a virus, the tumors grow, block the air passages and would
lead to death from suffocation without continual surgery to remove the growths.
Three year old Lindsay has undergone 11 operations thus far since her diagnosis
last year and faces the prospect of over a hundred operations throughout her
lifetime.

Even though the disease is hardly a household word, it has affected the lives
of enough people to inspire the formation of the Recurrent Respiratory
Papillomatosis Foundation,  a non-profit foundation whose goals are to provide
support for patients and families by networking patients and publishing a
newsletter, enhance  awareness of RRP at the local and national level, and aid
in the prevention, cure, and treatment.

Since medical researchers know that the virus causing the disease is similar to
those viruses causing warts, they feel a cure would be within reach if money
were available for research.  Because RRP is rare, it not only gets scant
attention but also paltry funds to search for a cure.  Part of the RRP
Foundation's mission is to change that.

Anyone interested in contributing items to the bake and craft sale, please call
Marlene or Bill at 609-890-0502.  Monetary donations can be made at the
Foundation's booth during Communiversity, April 24th, 12 to 4 p.m., in downtown
Princeton, or sent directly to:


	Yup.  Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, the cost of insurance
does NOT go down with No Fault.  The crappiest drivers make out like bandits
because they no longer have to bear the responsibility of paying for
insurance that they have boosted in price for themselves by being crappy
drivers.  The good drivers now pay through the nose to spread the cost of
the crappy drivers' actions, and that's not fair.

	Any plan that caps rates for crappy drivers is inherently a piece of
shit, because the rest of us end up paying more.

	Any plan that uses speeding tickets as a basis for raising rates is
also a piece of shit as it is based upon the lie that faster drivers are
inherently less safe than slower drivers, and the NHTSA disproved that two
years ago now.

Later,


Well, they claim they are the only radio broadcaster with this
information.  But the city's cable channel (35 in CableVision areas)
shows this information map during travel times (6-9am and 4-7pm, I
believe).  Most of the major LA freeways are covered.  The
computer-generated map shows green, yellow, red, or flashing red
(respectively: <40mph, 25-40mph, >25mph, and "incident"--I might be off
a little on the speeds, since this is from memory).

I often look at this display in the morning to see if I really want to
fight the traffic on the Sepulveda Pass or work from home for a little
while to wait for it to clear.

Another poster explained the origin of the information: sensors (embedded
wire loops) in the pavement near ramps and every half mile or so.  CalTrans
has had a "big board" driven from this data in their traffic control center
for some time.  I don't know if they are selling the data or if anyone
with the equipment necessary for its transmission and display can have
it.


: >So, by going mailorder through Gateway, I save ~13%.  Plus, I get
: >technical support over the phone, free software package.
: >
: Have fun trying to get hold of technical support over the phone.  At least
: locally you can walk right up to the dealer and tell him what is wrong, and
: he has to fix it.

Phone support is quick and competent from many mail order firms, but not so
quick and not so competent from others (Gateway included).  But my experience
with computer retailers (which is significant) has lead to the conclusion that
sales personnel and retail-technical personnel are forbidden to actually learn
about the products they sell.  Talk about incompetent!  O.K., so a few percent
of their answers are correct, but those salesmen don't even realize how stupid
they are.   ...  .......  O.K.  ...I'll settle down now....  .... let me
catch my breath.....  ..

Fact: retail stores never provide a better value in terms of price per product.

Retail outlets are desirable, however, to those people who aren't interested
in learning about computers enough to make their own decisions.  This is fine;
for example most of my education about carpeting, wall paper, lawn mowers,
microwave ovens, etc. has come from sales personnel.  I assume I must be an
idiot.  But I don't care about those things.  I do, however, care about my
computer - i.e. I demand features and performance, and I'll be damned if I'll
pay some high-school drop out commission on an over-rated, over-priced system
and in the process be subjected to his distorted B.S.

G.L.


# #  "Abortions destructive of the fetus must be permitted, even
# #   just before birth, if they promote what the [Supreme] Court
# #   calls ``health''
#
# Yes, Doug, we all know that Roe v. Wade prevents states from prohibiting
# abortions necessary to preserve the life or health of the woman.  Only
# very stupid people (such as yourself) confuse a discussion of mental health
# related to "Jane Doe", who was in a mental institution, and attempt to claim
# that this same argument could be applied to a woman who decided she wanted
# an abortion because she was having a "bad hair day".
#
# As you well know, the facts are that there are about 100 third-trimester
# abortions performed in this country annually, and those are *only* done for
# *serious* health reasons.
# --
# Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)

Hmmm.  Human gestation period is something like 39 weeks.  That means
third trimester abortions are those done after 26 weeks.  In consulting
a 1989 World Almanac, I see that 1% of abortions in 1983 were done at
21 weeks or more.  That's about 1268 abortions in 1983 after 21 weeks.
Unless the number of abortions performed has dropped dramatically, or
a LOT of abortions are done between 21 and 26 weeks, I think you are
wrong.

By the way, Roe v. Wade allowed states to adopt very, very broad
prohibitions on third-trimester abortions, but some states, such as
California, declined to do so.  It was reported* that what finally
stopped third trimester elective abortions in the Bay Area wasn't law,
but that the only hospital doing them ran out of nurses, then doctors,
willing to do them.  Not surprisingly, the bay area NOW chapter was
terribly upset about this.

I remain pro-choice, but when pro-choicers compare abortion in a
clinic to a religious ritual in a church, you have to start wondering
a bit if the pro-life criticism of abortion as modern human sacrifice
doesn't have a grain of truth to it.


Hi. I have been thinking about buying a Motorcycle or a while now and I have
some questions:

-Is there a buying guide for new/used motorcycles (that lists reliability, how
to go about the buying process, what to look for, etc...)?
-Is there a pricing guide for new/used motorcycles (Blue Book)?

Also
-Are there any books/articles on riding cross country, motorcycle camping, etc?
-Is there an idiots' guide to motorcycles?

ANY related information is helpful. Please respond directly to me.


       As a data point from Tennessee, a friend of mine and a police
officer essentially recommends that if you can, fade away.  Even if
you were perfectly justified you're likely in for a great deal of
hassle.  (A side note, carrying a gun concealed is a misdemeanor.)

       It's one of those "by State" things, pretty much.


I have one original SAM (Symantec AntiVirus for Macintosh) V3.0 for sale.

It comes with three program discs and one user manual. Will work with 800K and 1.4MB disc drives.

Selling for $17.90 (make an offer) which includes postage.

Respond to:


There's a program called "Icon Frightener" included with the book Stupid
Windows Tricks by Bob LeVitus and Ed Tittel (Addison-Wesley, 1992).  It's
freeware.  If it's not on the net anywhere, I'll happily email a copy to
someone who's willing to upload it (I can't upload through our Internet
firewall).


  [stuff deleted]

Actually, it does make a reasonable amount of sense. Fixed disk
sectors are buffered by the controller, and transferring them to
memory with a 'rep insw' (or whatever the instruction is called) is
quite efficient (single instruction, goes as fast as the
controller/cpu know how to use the bus). Since the 286 wasn't cached,
the bus is likely a critical resource relative to CPU performance, and
it's possible that DMA bus interference would cause as much or more
loss of CPU cycles (for 'computing') as does the 'rep insw' sequence.

The floppy, on the other hand, is not buffered, so that using the CPU
for floppy data transfer (as was done on the PC Jr, by the way) really
does stink.


It is all written in _The_Wholly_Babble:_the_Users_Guide_to_Invisible_
_Pink_Unicorns_.

To be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns, you must read the Babble,
and obey what is written in it.

To obey what is written in the Babble, you must believe that doing so is
the way to be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns.

To believe that obeying what is written in the Babble leads to believing
in invisible pink unicorns, you must, essentially, believe in invisible
pink unicorns.

This bit of circular reasoning begs the question:
What makes obeying different from believing?


Please reply via EMail...

When I use the terminal software for Windows such as TERMINAL.EXE or
Crossttalk, it doesn't use the whole window.  I mean, when the software's
window size is max, it still scrolls around the 2/3 of window.  It does not
use whole window.  I set "stty rows 30", but still the same. Scrolls at 2/3
from the top of the windows.  Could anyone tell me how to setup these software
to use whole window?


[ ... ]

To which I say:
Hear, hear.  Motion seconded.

Hovig


Try this:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#include <stdio.h>
#include <X11/Xlib.h>
#include <X11/Xutil.h>

Display *dpy;
int	screen;
XColor	*xclrs,*xclrp;
XID	cmap;
int	cells,i,j,red,green,blue,got;

main()
{
 dpy = XOpenDisplay(NULL);
 screen = DefaultScreen(dpy);
 cells = DisplayCells(dpy,screen);

 cmap = XCreateColormap(dpy,RootWindow(dpy,screen),DefaultVisual(dpy,screen),1);

 xclrs = (XColor *)malloc(cells * sizeof(*xclrs));

 xclrp = xclrs;
 for (i=0; i<cells; i++) { xclrp->pixel = i; xclrp->flags = 7; xclrp++; };

 XQueryColors(dpy,DefaultColormap(dpy,screen),xclrs,cells);
 XStoreColors(dpy,cmap,xclrs,cells);
 XInstallColormap(dpy,cmap);
 got = 1;

 while(got) {
  xclrp = xclrs;
  got = 0;
  for(i=0; i<cells; i++)  {
   if(xclrp->red < 65000) {xclrp->red += 256; got = 1;};
   if(xclrp->green < 65000) {xclrp->green +=256; got=1;};
   if(xclrp->blue < 65000) {xclrp->blue +=256; got=1;};
   xclrp ++;
  }
  XStoreColors(dpy,cmap,xclrs,cells);
/*  XInstallColormap(dpy,cmap); */
 }
 got = 1;
 while(got) {
  xclrp = xclrs;
  got = 0;
  for(i=0; i<cells; i++)  {
   if(xclrp->red > 256) {xclrp->red -= 256; got = 1;};
   if(xclrp->green > 256) {xclrp->green -=256; got=1;};
   if(xclrp->blue > 256) {xclrp->blue -=256; got=1;};
   xclrp ++;
  }
  XStoreColors(dpy,cmap,xclrs,cells);
/*  XInstallColormap(dpy,cmap); */
 }
}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
It will work on any PseudoColor XServer. (hopefully :)


The Dividians didn't have that option after the FBI cut off their
electricity.


First of all, realize that Tesla invented AC power generators, motors,
transformers, conductors, etc. Technically, *ALL* transformers are Tesla
coils.  In general though when someone refers to a Tesla coil, they mean
an "air core resonant transformer". The TV flyback version Tesla
coil (see the _Encyclopedia_of_Electronic_Circuits_ V3, 106-1 for
diagram) has NOT an air core. It is of a class of circuit called
"Oscillating Shuttle Circuit" (OSC). Generally OSC's are highly
efficient, but this version uses transistors and resistors,
which are very lossy devices. Typically Tesla used active
reactances instead of passive resistors, so that he could achieve
efficiencies of 99.5%, and better. The usual application of an air-core
resonant transformer, or of an OSC, is to produce strong EMI
for wireless broadcasts. How well do you think your computer
screen would work if we removed the HF HV Tesla (flyback) coil
from it? If we were to remove from our homes and industries all
Tesla coils, our lights would go dark, our cars would sputter
and die, our radios would go silent, our industries would grind
to a halt, and we would have to go back to using coal for heat,
gas for lamps, horses for transportation, steam for power, and
telegraph for communication. Is that real world enough for you???????

GET THE MESSAGE! WE WOULD NOT HAVE 1/100 THE CONVIENIENCES WE HAVE
TODAY IF NOT FOR TESLA. GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE!

If it had been up to Edison, we'd still be in the 19th century.
(flame me at your own peril. I'm very good at putting edison down).

----
 ET   "Tesla was 100 years ahead of his time. Perhaps now his time comes".


The actual hourglass is hollow and is designed to generate a draft,
exploiting the venturi effect.  Around the base of the hourglass is a
ring of water towers.  Warm river water, coming from the steam condenser
in the plant, is sprayed over louvres.  The draft being pulled through
the tower cools the water by both evaporation and convection.  The
sensible heat extracted from the cooling water is the driving force for
draft generation.

It should be noted that the hourglass-shaped cooling towers are used on
both fossile and nuclear plants.  It should also be noted that at
locations where water is plentiful, the cooling towers are only used part
time, when the discharge temperature would exceed some release limit.
It was once thought that the warm discharge water was damaging to fish.
Fishermen know that is thoroughly incorrect.  Nontheless, stringent,
usually state, regulations remain in some instances.  Since it typically
takes 60,000 hp worth of pumping to move the volume of water needed
to cool a 1000 MWe plant, the cost of using the towers is not insignificant.


Obviously never rode a good 250 or open-class bike!


Upgraded my friend's 486DX/33 and have the chip for sale, 486DX/33 Intel
CPU chip, first US$265+shipping will get the chip.  or you can make the
offer if you don't like the price...  Thanks.


Mike> Is it possible to do a "wheelie" on a motorcycle with shaft-drive?

Sure.  In fact, you can do a wheelie on a shaft-drive motorcycle
without even moving.  Just don't try countersteering.

:-)


Issue 5 of the X Resource (the published proceedings of the 7th Annual X
Technical Conference) has an paper by Mark Linton and Chuck Price
titled "Building Distributed interfaces with Fresco".

The summary describes Fresco (formerly known as XC++) as an X consortium effort.
Without doing a complete review of the paper, I'll just mention the goals
as stated in one section of the article.  the effort has the goal of providing
the next generation toolkit with functionality beyond the Xt toolkit or Xlib.
Features they want in FRESCO include:

lightweight Objects, such as Interviews Glyphs
Structured Graphics
Resolution independence
Natural C++ programming interface
edit-in-place embedding
distributed user interface components
Multithreading

This by no means captures the complete content of the paper. The Conclusions
sections mentions that a rough draft specification should be available in
early 93, with no schedule (paper presented in Jan 93) for a complete sample
implementation.

I am not affiliated with any of the people or places mentioned above.

--
Brian Dealy                |301-572-8267| It not knowing where it's at
dealy@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov   |            | that's important,it's knowing
!uunet!dftsrv!kong!dealy   |            | where it's not at...  B.Dylan


I'm not quite sure how these numbers are generated.  It appears that in
a neutral park Bo's HR and slugging tend to drop (he actually loses two
home runs).  Or do they?  What is "equivalent average?"

One thing, when looking at Bo's stats, is that you can see that KC took
away some homers.  Normally, you expect some would-be homers to go for
doubles or triples in big parks, or to be caught, and for that matter you
expect lots of doubles and triples anyway.  But Bo, despite his speed,
hit very few doubles and not that many triples.  So I would expect his
value to have risen quite considerably in a neutral park.

Felix Jose has been a .350/.440 player in a fairly neutral park.
I would offhand guess the `89-`90 Bo at around a .330/.530 player.
Maybe .330/.550 .  Not even close.

I'd put him about there too.

Note: I hadn't realized the media had hyped him so much.  I thought he
was always viewed by them as a better football player, and only so-so
at baseball.  He did only have one 30-hr, 100-rbi season, and KC wasn't
winning.

Note 2: I maybe have harped on this a bit in the past, but there is a
mistake being made (by the SDCN's, as they are known, on this group)
with respect to players like Bo and Deion and Lofton (and perhaps others).

We find, that if you look at a large group of players, their past major
and minor league numbers will predict their future numbers fairly well.
Their are some caveats: the younger they are, the less good the prediction;
the lower the minor league, the less good (I imagine), the more recent
the player has left college ball, etc.

Now of course, this prediction involves quite a bit of "error."  Sometimes
a player with poor MLE's (Dave Justice, the 1990 Ventura) becomes a star.
Some hitters develop (Shane Mack, Brian Downing), some don't (Oddibe
McDowell, Mickey Brantley).  This error involves real things: there are
real reasons why Oddibe didn't hit and Shane did.  It may (who knows)
involve parks and batting coaches and wheaties and injuries and lifting
and so on.

But still, you have this big pool of players, and things work pretty well.
One of the reasons for these predictions accuracy is the common background
of the players.  One thing we know about professional baseball players is
that all of them (or almost all) have spent a good deal of time playing
ball.  Their backgrounds are similar.

What hasn't been established is what happens when you encounter a player
with a different background?  Is there some reason to believe that a
Bo, or a Deion, or a Lofton, or a Tony Gwynn (?), or an Ainge, or so
on, has such a different background, that the standard model and standard
assumptions fit this person slowly?

It hasn't been established that you can use MLE's with two-sport players.
(It hasn't been established that you can't, but then statistics is, after
all, an art).  I personally think otherwise lucid individuals continually
make completely nonsensical statements about Bo and Deion and Lofton.
"Look at those good-but-not-great minor league numbers," they say.  Well,
what happens if those numbers simply don't mean what they usually mean?
It might mean that Ken Lofton suddenly has a better year in Houston than
Tuscon.  It might mean that Deion suddenly has a better half-year in
Atlanta than Greenville.

Then again, it might not.  Ken and Deion might go right back in the tank
this year, live up to those poor MLE's.  But you guys DON'T KNOW.  What's
worse, you don't know that you don't.  And you don't know that there are
other players you won't know about -- injuries and lifting and wheaties
again.  You seem to think that the model is perfect and eternal.  It's not.
It's got some error.

Oh well.

Bill Guilford


[stuff deleted]

Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.  It
seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
while hoping that Turkey will stay out.  Stop and think for a moment,
will you?  Armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it
is a part of it.

Huh?  You didn't expect Azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them
within their borders?

[...]

You're not playing with a full deck, are you?  Where would Turkey invade?
Are you throwing the Cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header
in hopes that the Greek netters will jump the gun?  Yes indeed Turkey
has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes she had, however, is
the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring the parties to the
negotiating table.  That's hard to do when Armenians are attacking Azeri
towns.  Armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the
futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that
leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's
going to cause incessant skirmishes.  Think of 10 or 20 years down the
line -- both of the newly independent countries need to develop economically
and neither one is going to wipe the other out.  These people will be
neighbors, would it not be better to keep the bad blood between them minimal?

If you belong to the Armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes
your fancy on the map is costing the local Armenians dearly in terms of their
blood and future.  It's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize
craziness to have your feelings about Turks tickled.  The Armenians
in Armenia and N-K will be there, with the same people you seem to hate
as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more.  The sooner there's peace in
the region the better it is for them and everyone else.  I'd push for
compromise if I were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading
inflammatory half-truths.

cheers,


you can say that again.
how does $23 for a new thermostat sound?


I had heard(perhaps incorrectly) that while Lemieux was out, noone wore a
C on their jersey.  The As took turns doing captain duties(whatever they
are).

Scott...
scott.marks@launchpad.unc.edu
scott.marks@launchpad.unc.edu


I have been trying to compile some source code for a mpeg animation viewer for
X Windows. I got the code from a ftp site. I have modified the Makefile as
they instructed, no errors there. What happens is that I get the following
message when everything is going to be linked:

	cc  util.o video.o parseblock.o motionvector.o decoders.o  fs2.o fs2fast.o fs4.o hybrid.o hybriderr.o 2x2.o  gdith.o gray.o mono.o main.o jrevdct.o 24bit.o util32.o ordered.o  ordered2.o mb_ordered.o /lib/libX11.so /lib/libXext.so -lm -o mpeg_play
Undefined			first referenced
 symbol  			    in file
getnetpath                          /lib/libX11.so
t_alloc                             /lib/libX11.so
t_unbind                            /lib/libX11.so
t_open                              /lib/libX11.so
t_rcvdis                            /lib/libX11.so
netdir_free                         /lib/libX11.so
t_error                             /lib/libX11.so
netdir_getbyname                    /lib/libX11.so
getnetconfigent                     /lib/libX11.so
t_look                              /lib/libX11.so
t_errno                             /lib/libX11.so
t_close                             /lib/libX11.so
netdir_getbyaddr                    /lib/libX11.so
t_listen                            /lib/libX11.so
t_rcv                               /lib/libX11.so
setnetpath                          /lib/libX11.so
t_bind                              /lib/libX11.so
t_connect                           /lib/libX11.so
t_accept                            /lib/libX11.so
nc_perror                           /lib/libX11.so
inet_addr                           /lib/libX11.so
ld: mpeg_play: fatal error: Symbol referencing errors. No output written to mpeg_play
*** Error code 1 (bu21)

make: fatal error.

Does anyone know where these missing functions are located? If you do can you
help me with it?

I posted before to one of the other Unix groups, I tried their suggestions but
always get this error.

If you have to know: I am using Unix system V. The machines here are 486's. The
terminals I want to use are separate and just called X-terminals and they seem
dedicated to that. I'm not sure as to what they really are, since it is one of
my first times out with this X-windows gidget! That is, first time programming
for it, so to speak. I use them alot just for the graphics things.

If you can help, mail me soon.


2SC1096
  Maximum Ratings:
    VCBO = 40V
    VCEO = 30V
    IC   = 3A
    PC   = 10W (T=25C)

  ICBO max = 1uA
  VCB = 30V
  COB = 55pF

  at Q-point VCE=5, IC=1A --> hfe = 100

2SA634
  Maximum Ratings:
    VCBO = -40V
    VCEO = -30V
    IC   = -3A
    PC   = 10W (T=25C)

  ICBO max = -1uA
  VCB = -30V
  COB = 75pF

  at Q-point VCE = -5V, IC = -1A --> hfe = 100

That's all i can get from my data book, hope that helps.


I have to agree with you... the police may have carried it a bit too far
but Rodney King was no angel either. And I don't think ANY guilty
verdicts should have been returned. I'm sure you know why they handed
down guilty verdicts on two of the officers. It's quite simple really,
it was a compromise to avoid rioting in the places where minorities
think it's right to riot. I hate to say this, but I would have liked to
see them riot with everyone prepared. It would be open season if your
skin was even slightly brown.

Hey, my motto is, you don't fuck with me or my stuff and you don't get
killed. It's just that simple.

Tony

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Anthony S. Pelliccio, kd1nr/ae    // Yes, you read it right, the  //
-- system @ garlic.sbs.com          // man who went from No-Code    //
-----------------------------------// (Thhhppptt!) to Extra in     //
-- Flame Retardent Sysadmin       // exactly one year!            //
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-- This is a calm .sig! --


As far as I can see, one of the big differences between Davidians and
Christians is in who they follow.  I have sometimes tried to put myself
in the feet of one of Jesus's disciples.  Basically, they gave up a
lot --- career, possibly family, and well, a whole bunch, to follow
Jesus.

So what is the difference?  It is quite plain.  Jesus was good and
David Koresh was not.

The problem is, I think, is that we try to legislate what is good
and what is bad in terms of principles.  For instance, there are thousands of
laws in the U.S. governing what is legal and what is not.  Often, it is hard
to bring people to justice, because it is not possible to find
a legal way to do it.  If only we could trust judges to be just,
then we could tell them to administer justice fairly, and justice
would be followed.  But since judges don't always get it right,
we have a complicated system involving precedent and bunches
of other stuff which attempt to make the imperfect (the justice
of man) into something perfect.  But what I hear about the justice
system in the U.S. tells me that quite the opposite is true.

There is also a problem that we tend to judge the presentation
more than the material being presented.  So we might consider
a ranting Christian to be bad, but an eloquent person from another
religion to be good.  This goes along with the American desire
to protect the Constitution at all costs, even if it allows
people to do bad things.

I think that it is the message that is important.  If a man is
presenting a false message, even if he is ever ever so mild mannered,
then that man is performing a tremendous disservice.

I know that I am rambling here.  I guess that what I am trying to
say is that we shouldn't be looking for principles that tell us
why the Davidians got it wrong.  It is not wrong to follow and
worship a person.  But it is important to choose the right person.
It is simple.  Choose Jesus, and you got it right.  Choose
anyone else, and you got it wrong.  Why?  Because Jesus is the
begotten son of God, and nobody else is.  Jesus was without sin, and
nobody else was.


Just to make sure everyone is clear on this: "it never has" refers to
"protects", not "fails to protect"; i.e., in my lifetime I have never seen
the U.S. government consistently protect the interest of U.S. citizens,
except by accident.


PSA 145:9  The LORD is good to all: and his  tender  mercies  are
over all his works.


That's right, and this is pretty impossible, right?  It would be ideal if
we could believe for a while, just to try out religion, and only then
determine which course of thought suits us best.  But again, this is not
possible.  Not that religion warrants belief, but the belief carries with
it some psychological benefits.  There are also some psychological
burdens, too.

Well, if there were some psychological or other benefits gained from racism,
they could only be fully understood or judged by persons actually "believing"
in racism.  Of course, the parallel happens to be a poor one, but you
originated it.


And if the Lord God Almighty parted the sky and make a personal
appearance at their Board of Directors meeting, they would also change
their policies.  The odds are about equal.

You'll be extremely lucky if you ever get one through.


Suggest McQuires #1 plastic polish.  It will help somewhat but nothing
will remove deep scratches without making it worse than it already is.
McQuires will do something for fine or light stuff.

Also suggest calling your local plastic shop.  In Calif. "TAP PLASTIC" is
a chain that carries most of what is needed for repair and sometimes
replacement of plastic bits.  Telephone in the Bay area is 415-962-8430.
I'm not sure how amenable they are to shipping.  I have found that they
have several excellent products for cleaning, and removing crap from
windscreens and face shields.  Also they have one called "lift-it" which
works real well in removing sticky stuffs such as adhessives from plastic
wihtout scratching same.

Luck,


Lack of build quality was the thing  I notced on the first 2 LH's I
saw months back. The panel gaps were large and non-uniform between
the 2 cars I saw - the kind of thing you expect and accept on a
Mustang - but not from Chrysler's savior.  I drove one of the low
end cars, and thought it was more than adequate. I'd prefer
an LH to a Taurus from my brief experience.

Craig


why does my keyboard not have a cents key ?
C

like to have my 2 cents worth or $ 0.02 (boaring)

                                                       -David

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


I recently got a file describing a library of rendering routines
called SIPP (SImple Polygon Processor).  Could anyone tell me where I can
FTP the source code and which is the newest version around?
        Also, I've never used Renderman so I was wondering if Renderman
is like SIPP?  ie. a library of rendering routines which one uses to make
a program that creates the image...

                                        Thanks,  Joe Tham


I have been looking at some of the recent productions on homosexuality
and decided that I was interested in videotaped copies of these.  If
anyone can help me out here, I would very much appreciate it.

Here is what I am looking for:

* - "The Gay Agenda" produced by Ty Beeson's group The Report.

* - John Ankerberg's recent series "Understanding Homosexuality and
Experiencing Genuine Change."

* - James Kennedy's special on homosexuality which aired this week,
and the portion of the previous week's program which discussed "The
Gay Agenda."

I will not pay money for copies, since this is copyrighted material
and that would be illegal.  I will pay for return postage.  If
somebody can think of something they would desire in trade, please let
me know and I'll see what I can do.

Oh, BTW, I'm watching the March On Washington right now on C-SPAN.
Other than the fact that I'm generally repulsed by what I'm watching,
I found one thing of interest.  General David Dinkins just finished
speaking, and remarked that the New York City delegation consists of
about 200,000 people.  Funny, I don't see 200,000 people out there,
period.  Must've been quite the party scene last night.  Or maybe
their exaggerations were just too much.

Sean Patrick Ryan****fsspr@aurora.alaska.edu or sean@freds.cojones.com
3215 Oregon Dr. #2, Anchorage, AK  99517-2048****907-272-9184****fnord
Abortion stops a beating heart****Disclaimer:  I didn't inhale, either
IDITAROD SCOREBOARD 1993 - MEN 16, WOMEN 5****Read alt.flame.sean-ryan


I would like to sell my Logitech Hand-held 256 Gray Scale Scanner. I
originally bought it as a toy and have no practical use for it. Hardly
ever used it.

Package includes:
-board
-Scan-Mate software
-Ansel Image Editing software
-All original manuals, box, etc.

Originally bought for $350 in Jan '92.
Selling for $150.


[KT] HELLO, shit face david, I see that you are still around. I dont want to
[KT] see your shitty writings posted here man. I told you.

So ... close your eyes and walk away.

[KT] You are getting itchy as your fucking country.

I have been defending the history of the Armenians on this network for over
six years. I have seen the likes of you enter his forum, make fools of
themselves, and "simply vanish" as did the Armenians in 1915!

[KT] Hey , and dont give me that freedom of speach bullshit once more.

Realize sir, you are not in Turkey! In the USA freedom of speech is not
considered "bullshit". It is because of such freedoms that Turks like yourself
are allowed to attend Georgia Tech.

[KT] Because your freedom has ended when you started writing things about my
[KT] people. And try to translate this "ebenin donu butti kafa David.".

What's the problem? If you can't stand the heat -- leave! Your government
murdered 1.5 million Armenians and you would have me stay quiet to suit your
personal fancy or some fascist fetish regarding the greatness of Turkey! Well,
that is simply too bad.

[KT] BYE, ANACIM HADE.
[KT] TIMUCIN

Pis bogaz!


I have a used Sony D-808K CarDiscman for sale.  I bought it new on
June 16, 1992.  It still has
 the one-year warranty intact.
Specifications:
Sony's best car discman			perfect condition
8X oversampling				1-bit D/A converter
3-beam laser pickup			dual color display
DSP sound processing (Bass Boost and DDS modes) w/ 3 levels of effect
2-way repeat				hold mode
can also run on just 2 AA batteries	30 track programming w/ repeat
random play w/ delete
fused cigarette lighter adapter (could save the player if something goes wrong

Accesories:
headphone plug & line-out jack		Sony MDR-34 headphones
AC power Adapter			patch cord for home use
automobile mouting plate  		car conecting pack
remote control(great for home use) 	carrying case
extra fuses

This unit is great to use in any car.  Can be moved easily between vehicles.
Works well in home or car. Just need cigaraette lighter/outlet and a cassette
player.
   I have everything that it came with manuals, packaging, receipts etc.
The unit is in perfect condition with normal well taken care of use.
Extremely versatile and manuverable unit that can be used anywhere.
   I am asking $250 for the system and extras. Please e-mail if interested.


The ONLY unity I've found which is true is when all parties involved are
disciples.  I came out of a church in which even the different
congregations were always competing and arguing about which one was
better and who had the better messages (while none of them put anything
into practice from those messages).  Since becoming a disciple, I've
found that when I travel to another church in the same movement, they
are just as accepting there as any other.  We had a retreat back in
January when some of the congregation from Louisville, KY came up (this
retreat was for college students) and it was as though I had known even
the people from Louisville for years (and I had only become a disciple
the previous April and had never been to the church in Kentucky).  One
of the keys to unity is unselfish love and self-sacrifice.  That is only
one area in which disciples stand out from "Christians".  Also, another
part of unity is a common depth of conviction.  I've also been a part of
some "Christian" campus fellowships who were focused on unity between
churches and saw that those churches had one thing involved:  a lack of
conviction about everything they believed.  That was why they could be
unified, they didn't care about the truth but delighted in getting along
together.

Creeds?  What need is there of creeds when the Bible stands firmly
better?

According to the Scriptures, splits and differences of opinion are going
to be there.  As per a previous note, I mentioned that there are those
who teach falsely by many means.  There are also differences of opinion
and belief.  However, Scripture states:
   In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your
meetings do more harm than good.  In the first place, I hear that when
you come together as a church, there re divisions among you, and to some
extent I believe it.  No doubt there have to be differences among you to
show which of you have God's approval (1 Corinthians 11:17-19).

How will God show his approval?  By fruitfulness (see Acts 2:47), but
before that, there are these qualities:
   devotion to the apostles teaching
   fellowship
   communion
   filling with awe for God
   all having everything in common.
   glad and sincere hearts
   praising God
   enjoying the favor of the people
All these are mentioned in Acts 2:42-47.  God also shows that those who
have these qualities are persecuted.  Look at Stephen, "a man full of
faith and of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 6:5) who was later stoned (Acts
7:54-60).

One can say that a church is the true church only if that church is
perfect not only in the congregation but worldwide as a movement.  I
have yet to find that, but the closest one I've found is the Boston
Church of Christ movement, which constantly strives to have errors
pointed out and corrected.  It is also the only one I've seen which is
totally sold out to God.

As for cooperation, that can always occur.  Unity, on the other hand may
never occur.  As for those who think about only one church being the
"true one", I remind them that Mark 9:38-41 states that there are
disciples who are not a part of the main group to begin with, but they
will not lose their reward.  As with the Boston movement, I've heard
numerous times this exact same thing, that there are disciples out there
that are not a part of the Boston movement but that does not make them
any less disciples.  Of course, few people admit that they've ever run
into someone who has the qualities of a disciple outside the movement.
I know I haven't.

I must warn that this sounds cliquey to me.  A clique is a group which
runs around together to some extent exclusively.  This causes problems
in fellowship and causes divisions.  I would not say at all that this is
something "correct" for a church/group to do for any reason.  In one of
the churches I attended, for example, there was an internal clique of
people who were on the 14 different groups/committees/organizational
heads of the congregation.  They rarely talked to anyone else outside of
the committees and seldom were voted out of office without another
office being "opened up" so that they would have to step right back in.
Their degree of exclusion was such that when the new pastor came, he
nearly had to wipe out everything and start from scratch (I wish he
would've since they still have no clue about what it means to be a
disciple).  Anyway, this rigidity in the clique is beginning to be
broken down, but is still there.  So, I must warn against such division
within.  There's enough division without.


        B.S. about darkness deleted.
	nope The Royals are the only team in the majors that have not
     finished in last place.    ^^^^    Of course this doesn't include
     the marlins and the rockies but they have a good chance at
     finishing last also.


She hasn't.  Dorothy Denning has spent many years earning the
professional respect of her colleagues, and something won in this
manner is not easily lost.  Her support of the clipper -- no matter
how unpopular that position may be -- serves far more to enhance the
clipper's respectability than to diminish her own.

                           :: Jeff Makey


:
It's i before e except after c, and in people named kEIth.

Learn to spell.  It's Ryne.

How can Brooks be # 6?  I think he would at least be ahead of Ron Santo.

***********************
1a)  Darren Daulton   *       MVP 1993
***********************


Here is yet another prediction for them great playoffs!
(you may laugh at your convenience!) :)

	Adams Division (I hate the NE (name) divisoin!!!)

BOS vs BUF   BOS in 5  (the B's are hot lately!)

MON vs QUE   MON in 7  (This will be the series to watch in the first round!)

BOS vs MON   MON in 7  (this may be a bit biased but I feel the Canadiens will
		       (smarten up and start playing they played two months ago
			( i.e. bench Savard !!!)
	Patrick Division

PIT vs NJD   PIT in 6  (It wont be a complete cake walk... there be a few lumps
			(in the cake batter!)

WAS vs NYI   WAS in 6  	(This will not be an exciting series..IMO)

PITT vs WAS  PIT in 4   (Washington will be tired after the NYI)

	Norris Division

CHI vs StL    CHI in 5   (StL will get a lucky game in)

TOR vs DET    TOR in 7   (THis , like MON vs QUE, will be another intense
			 (series to watch!)

CHI vs TOR    TOR in 7   (Potvin will be settling in nicely by this point.)

	Smythe Division

VAN vs WIN     VAN in 5  (Teemu is great, but Vancouver better as a team!)

CAL vs LAK     CAL in 6  (Gretzky is great, but Calgary has been on fire lately)
				...sorry for the pun... um, no I am not! :)

VAN vs CAL     VAN in 6  (This will be a great series! but VAN has proven they
			 (Will not lie down and get beat!)

	Wales Conference finals

Pittsburgh vs Montreal    	Montreal in 6 (Montreal IMHO is the only team
					      (that has a chance against
						Pittsburgh.)

	Campbell Conference finals

Vancouver vs Toronto		Toronto in 6  (Potvin will be series MVP)

	STANLEY CUP FINALS

Toronto Maple Leafs    vs    Montreal Canadiens
	(The Classic Stanley Cup Final matchup!!) <---also a dream come true!

	Montreal wins the Stanley cup in the 7th game 1 - 0 in double overtime.
Roy and Potvin are spectacular throughout the series and share series MVP (if
that is possible) Vincent Damphouse nets game winner from a brilliant pass by
Brian Bellows! Canadiens star(?) Denis Savard watched his buddies play from the
owners box nursing that splinter on his thumb which has left him on the
disabled list since the first game of the playoffs (awww shucks).

***************************************YEE HAA!!*******************************
*poof* And I wake up :)
Well that is my predictions...I hope and dream they come true. and you can stop
laughing anytime :)


In Article <1993Apr16.075822.22121@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>,

60ns 72 pin simms.

2 configs: 4mb & 8mb. In each case the memory is soldered on the board
leaving the 4 simm sockets open. 132mb is the total addressable memory for a
650.


Subject: Re: NETTEKI BUTUN VATANSEVERLERE DUYURU....

ca (Suat Kiniklioglu) [a.k.a. Kubilay Kultigin] continues...

[KK] BUTUN NETTEKI ARKADASLARA DUYURU....
[KK]
[KK] (SIYASI PLATFORMUN HANGI "TARAFINDA OLURSANIZ OLUN")
[KK]
[KK] BUGUNLERDE BU NETTE OLSUN, TALK.POLITICS.MIDEAST VE TALK.POLITICS.
[KK] SOVIET'TE OLSUN OLAGAN DAN FAZLA VE "ETKIN" ERMENI VE YUNAN
[KK] POSTINGLERI YAZILMAKTADIR. BU YAZILARIN COGU GUNCEL KARABAG
[KK] KIBRIS VE BOSNA KONULARINDA YOGUNLASMAKTADIR. BURADAN HAREKETLE
[KK] "HEPIMIZIN" BIRAZ DAHA AKTIF OLMASI VE "USENMEYIP" CEVAP YAZMASI
[KK] OLDUKCA FAYDALI OLACAKTIR.
[KK]
[KK] EVET, HERKESIN ISI GUCU VAR...AKADEMIK YILIN YOGUN BIR DONEMI
[KK] FAKAT MEYDANI BOS BIRAKMAMANIN VE ULKEMIZIN CIKARLARINI "IDEOLOJIK
[KK] PLATFORMDA" GOZETMENIN DE SORUMLULUGU VAR...
[KK]
[KK] YARINLARIN CAGDAS VE GUCLU TURKIYESI'NI HEP BERABER KURMAK UMUDUYLA,
[KK]
[KK] SAYGILAR,

[KK] Kubilay Kultigin

[KK] ***** VATAN SEVGISI RUHLARI KIRDEN KURTARAN EN KUVVETLI RUZGARDIR *****

In translation, as a public service:

Subject: AN ANNOUNCEMENT TO ALL PATRIOTS ON THE NET...

AN ANNONCEMENT TO ALL FRIENDS ON THE NET...

(REGARDLESS OF "WHEREVER YOU STAND" ON THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM)

IN RECENT DAYS ARMENIAN AND GREEK POSTINGS OF THAN THE USUAL IN NUMBER AND
"EFFECTIVENESS" ARE BEING WRITTEN BOTH ON THIS NET AND THE TALK.POLITICS.
MIDEAST AND TALK.POLITICS.SOVIET. MOST OF THESE WRITINGS CONCENTRATE ON THE
SUBJECTS OF KARABAGH, CYPRUS AND BOSNIA. DUE TO THIS FACT, IT IS QUITE USEFUL
FOR "US ALL" BE MORE ACTIVE AND "NOT FEEL RELUCTANT" TO RESPOND.

YES, EVERYBODY HAS HIS/HER OCCUPATION...IT IS A BUSY PERIOD IN THE ACADEMIC
YEAR. HOWEVER, [WE MUST] HAVE A RESPONSIBILTY NOT TO LEAVE THE FORUM EMPTY AND
WATCH THE INTERESTS OF OUR COUNTRY ON THE "IDEOLOGICAL LEVEL"...

IN THE HOPE OF BUILDING TOGETHER A MODERN AND POWERFUL TURKEY OF TOMORRROW.

REGARDS,

Kubilay Kultigin

***** THE LOVE OF THE FATHERLAND IS THE STRONGEST OF ALL WINDS CLEANSING FILTH
OFF SOULS *****


no, but somebody's dropped a ford 302 V-8 into the miata, somewhat
reminiscent of the shelby cobra.  the car's obviously not as nimble
as before, but it's supposed to have a near 50/50 weight distribution
and handle very well.  i'd sure love to drive one.


You're supposed to delete everything above the "cut here" mark, and
below the lower cut here mark, and uudecode it.  but
*I was not able to: unexpected end of file encountered at the last line.

could you please re-post it, or tell be what I'm doing wrong?

thanks,i.a.,
Mickey


Boston                           2 2 0--4
Ottawa                           0 1 1--2
First period
     1, Boston, Roberts 5 (Juneau) 7:19.
     2, Boston, Wiemer 1(Juneau, Oates) 17:47.
Second period
     3, Boston, Neely 11 (Juneau, Murphy) 6:10.
     4, Boston, Hughes 5 (Richer, Kimble) 7:55.
     5, Ottawa, Archibald 9 (Rumble, Lamb) 11:37.
Third period
     6, Ottawa, Boschman 9 (Kudelski) 5:10.

Boston: 4    Power play: 2-0
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Hughes             1    0    1
Juneau             0    3    3
Kimble             0    1    1
Murphy             0    1    1
Neely              1    0    1
Oates              0    1    1
Richer             0    1    1
Roberts            1    0    1
Wiemer             1    0    1

Ottawa: 2    Power play: 4-0
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Archibald          1    0    1
Boschman           1    0    1
Kudelski           0    1    1
Lamb               0    1    1
Rumble             0    1    1

-----------------------------------------
Washington                       0 0 2--2
NY Rangers                       0 0 0--0
First period
     No scoring.
Second period
     No scoring.
Third period
     1, Washington, Bondra 36 (Pivonka, Cavallini) 6:54.
     2, Washington, Bondra 37 (Cote, Pivonka) 10:10.

Washington: 2    Power play: 2-0
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Bondra             2    0    2
Cavallini          0    1    1
Cote               0    1    1
Pivonka            0    2    2

NY Rangers: 0    Power play: 1-0
No scoring

-----------------------------------------
NY Islanders                     2 1 1 0--4
Hartford                         2 1 1 1--5
First period
     1, NY Islanders, Ferraro 13 (Malakhov, King) 1:29.
     2, NY Islanders, Hogue 32 (Thomas, Turgeon) 1:57.
     3, Hartford, Yake 21(Poulin) 4:15.
     4, Hartford, Yake 22 (Nylander, Poulin) 16:44.
Second period
     5, Hartford, Verbeek 39 (Cassels, Weinrich) pp, 2:43.
     6, NY Islanders, Thomas 35 (King, Ferraro) 7:58.
Third period
     7, Hartford, Burt 5 (Sanderson, Cassels) 13:41.
     8, NY Islanders, Malakhov 14 (Hogue) 17:45.
Overtime
     9, Hartford, Janssens 12 (Poulin) 1:08.

Hartford: 5    Power play: 3-1
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Burt               1    0    1
Cassels            0    2    2
Janssens           1    0    1
Nylander           0    1    1
Poulin             0    3    3
Sanderson          0    1    1
Verbeek            1    0    1
Weinrich           0    1    1
Yake               2    0    2

NY Islanders: 4    Power play: 3-0
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Ferraro            1    1    2
Hogue              1    1    2
King               0    2    2
Malakhov           1    1    2
Thomas             1    1    2
Turgeon            0    1    1

-----------------------------------------
Pittsburgh                       2 3 1 0--6
New Jersey                       2 4 0 0--6
First period
     1, Pittsburgh, Daniels 5 (Needham, Tippett) 4:14.
     2, New Jersey, Lemieux 29 (Semak, Driver) 10:19.
     3, Pittsburgh, Stevens 55(Tocchet, Murphy) pp, 12:40.
     4, New Jersey, Zelepukin 22 (Driver, Niedermayer) 17:26.
Second period
     5, Pittsburgh, Lemieux 68 (Stevens, Tocchet) 1:42.
     6, New Jersey, Semak 36 (Lemieux, Zelepukin) 2:27.
     7, Pittsburgh, McEachern 28 (Jagr, Barrasso) 4:24.
     8, New Jersey, Stevens 12 (Guerin, Pellerin) 5:45.
     9, Pittsburgh, Lemieux 69 (unassisted) sh, 12:40.
     10, New Jersey, Richer 37 (Nicholls) 15:53.
     11, New Jersey, Lemieux 30 (Semak, Zelepukin) 17:40.
Third period
     12, Pittsburgh, Mullen 33 (Jagr, Lemieux) 18:54.
Overtime
     No scoring.

Pittsburgh: 6    Power play: 5-1   Special goals:  pp: 1  sh: 1  Total: 2
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Barrasso           0    1    1
Daniels            1    0    1
Jagr               0    2    2
Lemieux            2    1    3
McEachern          1    0    1
Mullen             1    0    1
Murphy             0    1    1
Needham            0    1    1
Stevens            1    1    2
Tippett            0    1    1
Tocchet            0    2    2

New Jersey: 6    Power play: 3-0
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Driver             0    2    2
Guerin             0    1    1
Lemieux            2    1    3
Nicholls           0    1    1
Niedermayer        0    1    1
Pellerin           0    1    1
Richer             1    0    1
Semak              1    2    3
Stevens            1    0    1
Zelepukin          1    2    3


Have a look at Ed Belfour.

Belfour kicked Gerrard Gallant when the Wings played the 'Hawks
a couple of weeks ago. No penalty. No review. No suspension.
This was after he attacked Bob Probert in the previous period.
He was penalized for that.

Likewise Belfour. Too bad he goes down so much! :-)


In fact Adiposity 101 mentions a similar study (search for "life
events" in any recent version of Adiposity 101).

The problem with anecdotal reports about individuals who have
lost weight and kept it off is that we don't know what caused
the weight gain in the first place.  This is critical because
someone who gains weight because of something temporary (drug
effect, life event, etc.) may appear successful at dieting when
the weight loss was really the result of reversing the temporary
condition that caused the weight gain.


I will be in Boston (Cambridge specifically) working this summer
and am in need of a place to stay. If you have a room to sublease, or
anything of the sort I would appreciate a mail.
I am a 20-year old white male and am very flexible. I can adapt to a smoking
or non-smoking environment. Access to the 'T' would be nice, though I will
have a car thus need a parking space.
I would need this from late May or early June until aproximately end of July.
Any responses welcome.


What I did NOT get with my drive (CD300i) is the System Install CD you
listed as #1.  Any ideas about how I can get one?  I bought my IIvx 8/120
from Direct Express in Chicago (no complaints at all -- good price & good
service).

BTW, I've heard that the System Install CD can be used to boot the mac;
however, my drive will NOT accept a CD caddy is the machine is off.  How can
you boot with it then?

--Dave


Archive-Name: rec-autos/part6

[New article as of 4 February 1993 -- rpw]

Many people want to set up mailing lists for their favorite
automotive topics; rather fewer know how to do it.  This article
will provide the essential information for doing so on standard
Unix systems.  A shell script and examples of alias file setups
are included which presently run on a Sparc 2 here at balltown.cma.com
for a number of mailing lists.  Note that if you do set up an automotive
mailing list, please let me know of the -request address so that I can
list it in the montly rec.autos posting.  Also inform the keeper of the
Usenet list-of-lists (check news.answers for this monthly posting.)

First of all, to get anywhere, you need to either 1) be a sysadmin,
or 2) have some measure of assistance from your sysadmin.  It is also
important that you have reasonably good network connectivity; if it seems
like you get everything several days after anyone else, or that you
have trouble getting email through, then your network connectivity is
probably not good enough.

Listserv:

There is a handy automated mailing list package named listserv, which
is available from several ftp servers on the network.  Details of
the installation and operation of listserv are beyond the scope of this
article, but anyone who is considering running a large mailing list should
probably  look at listserv carefully.

The Alias file:

On a typical unix system; there is a file named /usr/lib/aliases on
whichever file server is your mail host; it contains lines such as:

foo:   bar, baz, bletch

which means that any email sent the name `foo' on that host is
redistributed to users bar, baz, and bletch.  thus, the simplest
possible email list is

my-favorite-car:  member1, member2, member3, my-address
my-favorite-car-request: my-address

this has a couple of problems; the most noticeable one being that
you have to be superuser to edit the alias file.  however, you can
do the following, with the connivance of your sysadmin:

my-favorite-car: :include:/home/mydir/misc/autos/my-favorite-car-list
my-favorite-car-request: my-address

Where the file specified is a list of comma and newline separated
addresses.  This file can be in the list admin's home directory,
owned by the list admin.

Bounced Mail:

this still has a problem; bounced mail usually gets distributed to all the
members of the list, which is generally considered somewhat irritating.
Therefore, the way that the driving school mailing list is set up
is instructive (Thanks to harpal chohan of the bmw list for this setup,
by the way.  I'm not sure where he got it from.)

school-request:   welty
school-rebroadcast:  :include:/home/newwelty/misc/autos/school/list
school: "|/usr/local/adm/bin/explscript school"
owner-school: school-request
owner-school-out: school-request

here's what is going on here:

the owner- and -request addresses are intended as traps for bounced mail
coming from the network.  the -request address also serves as the point
of contact for administrative duties.

school is what people send mail to; instead of pointing at addresses,
it points at a shell script which rewrites headers before resending
the email.  school-broadcast (of which nobody except me knows the name;
the name has been changed here to protect my own sanity) points at the
actual list members.

the shell script i use is as follows:

-----------------
#!/bin/sh
cd /tmp
sed -e '/^Reply-To:/d' -e '/^Sender:/d' -e '/^From /d' | \
        (echo Reply-To: ${1}@balltown.cma.com; \
         echo Errors-To: ${1}-request@balltown.cma.com; \
         echo Sender: ${1}-request@balltown.cma.com; \
         cat -) | \
        /usr/lib/sendmail -om -f ${1}-request@balltown.cma.com \
                -F "The ${1} Mailing List" ${1}-rebroadcast
exit 0
-------------------

note that this script does not know the name of the list; the name
is passed in from outside, so that the script may be used for multiple
lists (i run several out of this site.)
the script excises Reply-To:, Sender:, and From lines from the incoming
message, substitutes for Sender: and Reply-To:, and adds Errors-to:
99.9% of all email bounce messages end up being sent to the -request
or owner- addresses if this header rewrite is done.

For digested lists, there is some digestification software around.
Hopefully I'll be able to provide more information in a future version
of this posting.

richard welty (welty@balltown.cma.com)


[FAQ and Darius' response deleted]

I am myself an SDA and I am in total agreement with what Darius has to say.
I also worship on Saturday to honor the Lord.  Your mention of "[esteeming]
all days alike" IMO has to do with the fast days observed by the Jews.  But
no matter how you interpret that passage, I do accept your worship on Sunday
as being done in honor of the Lord, in contrast with what many of my fellow
SDA believers may believe.  To me, though, the bible overwhelmingly points
to Saturday as the day to be kept in honor of creation and of God's
deliverance of the Israelites from Egyptian bondage.  To those who would
attempt to point out that my observance of Saturday is being legalistic,
this is simply not the case.  Rather, keeping Saturday allows me a full day
to rest and contemplate God's goodness and grace.

The idea was introduced to me once that the reason Paul wanted the
Corinthians to lay aside money for the collection on the first day of the
week was because that was when they received their weekly wages.  Paul
wanted them to lay aside money for the collection as first priority, before
spending their money on other things.  I do not have any proof in front of
me for this though, although it would explain why they would lay aside money
in their homes instead of a meeting.

It would seem to me that you assume that the christians in the NT regularly
worshipped on the first day.  I assume that the christians in the NT
regularly worshipped on the seventh day.  But I agree with you that we only
have implications because the authors did assume the reader knew when worhip
was.


April 1, 1993

I am participating in an NL-league that uses standard Rotisserie rules
except that the following catagories are used:

For position players:
	lowest batting average
	strike-outs
	caught-stealing
	errors

For pitchers:
	losses
	blown saves
	higest ERA
	'taters allowed

This is the fifth year that I've participated in this Blowtisserie
league.  Last year I won the pennant due primarily to the fact that
I had terrible pitching.  I would like to lower my batting average
which is rather high because I do have Jose Offerman (who made up
for this by helping me lock first place in errors).  Anyway,
someone offered:

Andres Gallaraga for Bud Black

I can afford to give up Bud Black because I still have Kyle Abbott.
However, I am afraid of Andres actually doing well this season.
Should I make the trade or not?

Your comments will be appreciated.

--
Warren Usui


We are representing some Chinese TV manufacturers who want to wholesale their
products to Latin American countries. We are looking for brokers/agents who
can help us. Products include both color and black/white TVs from 11" to 24". If interested, please e-mail or fax to Mr Z Ho at 713-926-7953 (USA) for more information or inquiries. good commission.


Hello everyone.

Last week I posted a similar question to alt.wedding.  Now I come in
search of a deeper-level answer.

My fiance is Lutheran and I am Catholic.  We plan on getting married in
her church because she is living there now and I plan on moving there
in a month or so.  I called my Catholic priest to find out what I needed
to do in order for the marriage to be recognized by my church.

Needless to say that I have found that there is no "hard and fast" rule
when it comes to how the Catholic law for interfaith weddings is interpreted.
But I'm pretty sure that we CAN get married without too much problem; the
trick lies in the letter of dispensation.

But that is not why I am here....

What I'd like to know is:
  What are the main differences between the Lutheran and Catholic religions?
  My priest mumbled something about how the Eucharist was understood...
  I have heard that if two religions combine soon, it would be these two.

Any help would be appreciated...

Thanks so much!

Bill
--
  Bill Burns  [ Internet: wdburns@mtu.edu ]  Mac Network System Administrator
              [ AppleLink: SHADOW         ]  Apple Student Rep, MTU
First we must band together as friends,
     then mearcilessly crush our enemies into paste.


This notice will be posted weekly in sci.space, sci.astro, and
sci.space.shuttle.

    The Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) list for sci.space and sci.astro is
posted approximately monthly. It also covers many questions that come up on
sci.space.shuttle (for shuttle launch dates, see below).

    The FAQ is posted with a long expiration date, so a copy may be in your
news spool directory (look at old articles in sci.space). If not, here are
two ways to get a copy without waiting for the next posting:

    (1) If your machine is on the Internet, it can be obtained by anonymous
FTP from the SPACE archive at ames.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.18.3) in directory
pub/SPACE/FAQ.

    (2) Otherwise, send email to 'archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov'
containing the single line:

help

    The archive server will return directions on how to use it. To get an
index of files in the FAQ directory, send email containing the lines:

send space FAQ/Index
send space FAQ/faq1

    Use these files as a guide to which other files to retrieve to answer
your questions.

    Shuttle launch dates are posted by Ken Hollis periodically in
sci.space.shuttle. A copy of his manifest is now available in the Ames
archive in pub/SPACE/FAQ/manifest and may be requested from the email
archive-server with 'send space FAQ/manifest'. Please get this document
instead of posting requests for information on launches and landings.


TOSHIBA P321SL
-track/friction feeds
-LCD display
-3.5 months old
-like new
-sample print-out sheet (GEOWORKS) available
-EMULASER (a 2-month old program by VERTISOFT
   makes print-out look like an inkjet print-out)
-$175 firm.


For Sale:

1982 - 16' Hobie Cat Special, very good condition with
trailer, catbox, righting system, many extras.  Boat
is currently garaged in Natick MA, 25 miles east of
Boston.


It seems that a particular program designed for blind people is more important
than trying to interface windows with a way for blind people to use it.
If someone made a voice recognition/multimedia (sound) oriented program,
it would probably been more effective.  I don't know what the original
purpose of interfacing windows was for the person who posted the question
though.


	Let me ask you this.  Would you trust Richard Nixon with your
crypto keys?  I wouldn't.


Would the person who is running the e-mail list for KANSAS CITY Royals please
e-mail details regarding mailing list. If you on the list and know the info
please send me info as well.

Please e-mail as I don't have time always to read this group

John


CB>From: behanna@syl.nj.nec.com (Chris BeHanna)

CB>>|>
CB>>|>  Grf. Dropped my Shoei RF-200 off the seat of my bike while trying to
CB>>|> rock
CB>>|> it onto it's centerstand, chipped the heck out of the paint on it...

CB>        Do I have to be the one to say it?

CB>        DON'T BE SO STUPID AS TO LEAVE YOUR HELMET ON THE SEAT WHERE IT CAN
CB>        FALL DOWN AND GO BOOM!

CB>        HELMETS GO ON THE GROUND, ON A TABLE, ON A CHAIR, ON A SHELF, OR ON
CB>        ANY OTHER SURFACE THAT IS LARGE ENOUGH TO SUPPORT THEM SO THAT THEY
CB>        WILL NOT EASILY BE KNOCKED DOWN.

Another good place for your helmet is your mirror (!). I kid you not. If
you own a typical standard or other bike with fairly average mirrors
that screw into your handlebars, your helmet should fit over your mirror
and be fairly stable. I doubt I have to mention it, but this trick isn't
quite so smart on a GoldWing, CBR600, any GSXR, or any bike with
fairing-mounted mirrors.

I was a little surprised, though, to find that you had your helmet on
your seat while you were centerstanding your bike. I usually leave my
helmet on until my bike is parked, if for no other reason than I
wouldn't want my helmet to be on any surface that I was about to start
tilting and jerking . . .

Ryan Cousinetc.|1982 Yamaha Vision XZ550 -Black Pig of Inverness|Live to Ride
KotRB          |1958 AJS 500 C/S -King Rat                      |to Work to
DoD# 0863      |I'd be a squid if I could afford the bike...    |Flame to
ryan.cousineau@compdyn.questor.org  |   Vancouver, BC, Canada   |Live . . .

I saw the quote below on a pair of Nankai race-replica leathers. I think
this sort of phrase is typically known as "Japlish."

 * SLMR 2.1a * "Drive Agressively  Rash Magnificently" -Nankai Leathers


Ask me whether I'm surprised that you haven't managed to waddle out of
college after all this time.


Even 24Bit TrueColor machines are in most cases running an emulated
8 bit PseudoColor visual, only to get standard x clients, motif apps and
thelike to run. I strongly suppose you to emulate at least:

  should not make big misfits
  pixel indices, conversion stuff. Furthermore, you should run your default
  screen on this visual.


Well, it looks like the folks in soc.religion.islam have loosened up
a bit and are discussing this topic as well as the banking/interest
topic.  A few books on the subject have also been mentioned in addition
to the one you mentioned.  These may be hard to find, but I think I may
take a stab at it out of curiosity.  I know the one film I saw on this
subject was pretty weak and the only two quotes I have seen which were
used to show science in the Koran (which I posted here) were also pretty
vague.  I suspect that these books will extrapolate an awful lot on the
quotes they have.

At least one poster on the Islam channel seems to have some misgivings
about the practice of using the Koran to decide what is good science.

I wonder if Islam has ever come up with the equivalent of the Christians
"Creation Science" on any topic.  It would be interesting to find a history
of scientific interpretations of the Koran, to see if anyone used the Koran
to support earlier science which has since been discarded.  It is all too
easy to look at science as it exists today and then "interpret" passages
to match those findings.  People do similar things with the sayings of
Nostradamus all the time.


Okay all my friends are bitching at me that the map I made in Appsoft Draw
can't be displayed in "xv"... I checked... It's true, at least with version
1.0.  My readers on the NeXT have very little trouble on it (Preview messes
up the .eps, but does fine with the TIFF and ImageViewer0.9a behaves with
flying colors except it doesn't convert worth *&^^% ;-) )

  Please is there any way I can convert this .drw from Appsoft 1.0 on the NeXT
to something more reasonable like .gif?  I have access to a sun4 and NeXTstep
3.0 systems.  any good reliable conversion programs would be helpful... please
email, I'll post responses if anyone wants me to... please email that to.

Yes I used alphachannel... (god i could choke steve jobs right now ;-) )

Yes i know how to archie, but tell me what to archie for ;-)

Also is there a way to convert to .ps plain format? ImageViiewer0.9 turns
out nothing recognizable....

     terrychay

---
small editorial

-rw-r--r--  1 tychay   2908404 Apr 18 08:03 Undernet.tiff
-rw-r--r--  1 tychay     73525 Apr 18 08:03 Undernet.tiff.Z


+>The Golan Heights is a serious security problem, and Israel obviously
+>will have to keep part of it and give up part of it.  (One should
+>remember that the Golan Heights had been part of the area that was to
+>be in Britain's Palestine Mandate, slated to become part of the Jewish
+>state, until Britain traded it to France for other considerations.  In
+>other words, it is an historical accident that it was ever part of
+>Syria.)

	The Palestine mandate had no borders before
the borders were negotiated and drawn.  The most the Golan may have been
is on the list of what territories Britian would have liked to
see in the palestine mandate.
	Until the mandates came into existance, there were no defined
boundaries between any of the various territories in the region.


Says who? Other than a hear-say god.

You sure don't understand it.

Bill, I hereby award you the Golden Shovel Award for the biggist pile of
bullshit I've seen in a whils. I'm afraid there's not a bit of religion in
macroevolution, and you've made a rather grand statement that Science can
not explain origins; to a large extent, it already has!


Hmmm...I also heard through the grapevine that Team Finland might try and
leave a spot open for at least one NHLer. (Some guy named Sel{nne, ever
hear of him? :)  They might have to be content with Kurri, though, I hope. :)


True, coach Matikainen is ready to keep a spot for Teemu all the way
until the medal games. He wants Teppo Numminen, too. And Kurri, but for
them the spots cannot be left open for too long. Esa Tikkanen we have
already.

Even without these players I think we have pretty good team. Young,
hungry, talented guys, no old players that have got everything (except
the gold). Yesterday's practise game, SWE-FIN 6-6, shows that the two
world's best hockey teams ;) are in prime shape.  The Finn line
Riihijarvi(slightly injured)-Saarikoski-Viitakoski shined. I bet these
two teams are the best in the NHL, too. Roger, Roger?

What do you people think about Team Canada with Lindros, Brind'Amour,
Burke, Ranford, Recchi, Dineen...? Can they beat the Finns:?

Coaching news:

	       Alpo Suhonen (ex-Jets) to Jokerit (now verified),
               Boris Majorov (ex-Jokerit) to Tappara,
	       Vasili Tichonov (ex-Assat) to San Jose Sharks
                                             (assistant coach),
	       Sakari Pietila to Lulea (silver team in Elite-serien)


Rather, people kill people with guns.  The sad truth is: sometimes that is
good, or at least, better than the alternative.

Ok.  There are about 1400 fatal firearm accidents per year [1], and the
number has been in decline since early this century [2].  Most of these
accidents involve rifles or shot guns, not handguns.

...

In fact there are both guns and bullets designed specifically for that.
The idea that my Ruger Mark II Bull Barrel (a semi-auto 0.22 caliber
handgun) was designed to kill or hurt people, even for self defense,
would, I'm sure, come as a surprise to its designer.  It certainly isn't
why I have it.  It certainly would hurt someone if you shot them with it,
and might even kill them, but it is simply wrong to say it was designed to
kill people.

In fact, that is what happens most of the time.  Most self defensive uses
of firearms don't involve firing any shots.  Most criminals would prefer
not to be shot, and will go to some effort not to be, including doing what
you say when you point a gun at them.

If you were called on to design a tool, that could be easily carried, to
immediately stop someone attacking you, what would it be?  A handgun is
about the best anyone has come up with and experience shows it does work
the best.[3]

Certainly, no one argues that handguns (of the type we are discussing)
aren't deadly weapons.  However, it simply isn't true to say that all of
them were designed to kill people.  Moreover, what exactly is wrong with
having deadly weapons?  There are times when it is perfectly legitimate to
use deadly force, e.g. in self defense.  I consider it not just my right,
but my duty to defend myself and my family, and that includes having and
knowing how to use the tools to do that.

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear
arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in
government."
	- T. Jefferson.

I think what Jefferson said is still true.

Not very often compared to other use.[3]

This isn't that common either, at least when compared to other uses.  It is
very rare that a non-violent person will suddenly "get-pissed" and kill
someone, gun or not.  In most cases, the people who murder have long
histories of violence.  If you have good reason to believe that these
people wouldn't kill if they didn't have a gun, feel free to present it.

Right, but there are times when killing things is called for.  I hope I
never have to shoot a person, but I've had to kill a number of animals from
rodents to cows, and when I do, I don't want them to suffer any more than
is necessary.  I prefer they die instantly, but failing that, I want them
to drop so I can quickly finish them with the next shot, and failing that,
I don't want them to go fast or far.  I try to choose the best weapon and
ammunition I have to try to achieve that goal for the size of animal I'm
after, but it doesn't always work as I plan.  Without belaboring the point,
people who are overly impressed with the killing or shopping power of guns,
particularly handguns, haven't used them much for that purpose.

[1] Accidental deaths in 1988:
	48700 deaths by auto
	11300 deaths by fall
	 5300 deaths by drowning
	 4800 deaths by fire
	 4400 deaths by poison
	 3200 deaths by food
	 1400 deaths by firearm

     Source: Statistics Department, National Safety Council.
     "Accidents Facts 1988 Edition". National Safety Council.
    444 N. Michigan Avenue, Chicago IL  606111  (800) 621-7619

[2] RKBA.002 - Declining trend of accidental deaths by firearms
           Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/23 at 22:28:19)

DESCRIPTION
===========
The accidental deaths by firearm per capita has been declining steadily
for almost sixty years. In 1932, the accidental deaths by firearm per
1,000,000 people was 24.03. In 1987, it was 5.74. The decline has been
steady, consistent, and a fairly straight line when plotted. At the rate
of the last sixty years, it will reach zero sometime around 2025 AD.

CONCLUSION
==========
Firearms have been a declining factor in accidental deaths for over
sixty years, despite rising per-capita gun ownership.

[1] = Year.
[2] = Population.
[3] = Accidental deaths.
[4] = Accidental deaths per 1,000,000.

[1]   [2]          [3]    [4]       [1]   [2]          [3]    [4]
1932  124,840,000  3,000  24.03     1961  183,691,000  2,204  12.00
1933  125,579,000  3,014  24.00     1962  186,538,000  2,092  11.21
1934  126,374,000  3,033  24.00     1963  189,242,000  2,263  11.96
1935  127,250,000  2,799  22.00     1964  191,889,000  2,275  11.86
1936  128,053,000  2,817  22.00     1965  194,303,000  2,344  12.06
1937  128,825,000  2,576  20.00     1966  196,560,000  2,558  13.01
1938  129,825,000  2,726  21.00     1967  198,712,000  2,896  14.57
1939  130,880,000  2,618  20.00     1968  200,706,000  2,394  11.93
1940  132,122,000  2,375  17.98     1969  202,677,000  2,309  11.39
1941  133,402,000  2,396  17.96     1970  204,879,000  2,406  11.74
1942  134,860,000  2,678  19.86     1971  207,661,000  2,360  11.36
1943  136,739,000  2,282  16.69     1972  209,896,000  2,442  11.63
1944  138,397,000  2,392  17.28     1973  211,909,000  2,618  12.35
1945  139,928,000  2,385  17.04     1974  213,854,000  2,613  12.22
1946  141,389,000  2,801  19.81     1975  215,854,000  2,380  11.03
1947  144,126,000  2,439  16.92     1976  218,035,000  2,059   9.44
1948  146,631,000  2,191  14.94     1977  220,239,000  1,982   9.00
1949  149,188,000  2,330  15.62     1978  222,585,000  1,806   8.11
1950  151,684,000  2,174  14.33     1979  225,055,000  2,004   8.90
1951  154,287,000  2,247  14.56     1980  227,757,000  1,955   8.58
1952  156,954,000  2,210  14.08     1981  230,138,000  1,871   8.13
1953  159,565,000  2,277  14.27     1982  232,520,000  1,756   7.55
1954  162,391,000  2,271  13.98     1983  234,799,000  1,695   7.22
1955  165,275,000  2,120  12.83     1984  237,001,000  1,668   7.04
1956  168,221,000  2,202  13.09     1985  239,279,000  1,649   6.89
1957  171,274,000  2,369  13.83     1986  241,613,000  1,600   6.62
1958  174,141,000  2,172  12.47     1987  243,915,000  1,400   5.74
1959  177,073,000  2,258  12.75
1960  180,671,000  2,334  12.92

Sources:
U.S. Bureau of the Census, Historical Statistics of the United States,
Colonial Times to 1970, Bicentennial Edition, Part 2, Washington, DC, 1975.

U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States:
1982-83. (103th edition.) Washington, DC, 1982 [sic]..

U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States:
1989 (109th edition.)  Washington, DC, 1989.

[3] Kleck, Gary.  "Guns and Self-Defense: Crime Control through the Use of
Force in the Private Sector."  __Social Problems__ 35(1988):4, pp. 7-9.


The vote to create the proposed group, Sci.life-extension, was
affirmative.

Yes votes:    237.
No votes:      28.

What follows is a list of the people who voted, by vote ("no" or "yes").

Here are the people who voted NO:

bailey@utpapa.ph.utexas.edu               (Ed Bailey)
barkdoll@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu          (Edwin Barkdoll)
msb@sq.com                                (Mark Brader)
carr@acsu.buffalo.edu                     (Dave Carr)
desj@ccr-p.ida.org                        (David desJardins)
jbh@Anat.UMSMed.Edu                       (James B. Hutchins)
rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu                  (Rich Kulawiec)
stu@valinor.mythical.com                  (Stu Labovitz)
lau@ai.sri.com                            (Stephen Lau)
plebrun@minf8.vub.ac.be                   (Philippe Lebrun)
jmaynard@nyx.cs.du.edu                    (Jay Maynard)
emcguire@intellection.com                 (Ed McGuire)
rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu              (Richard H. Miller)
smarry@zooid.guild.org                    (Marc Moorcroft)
dmosher@nyx.cs.du.edu                     (David Mosher)
ejo@kaja.gi.alaska.edu                    (Eric J. Olson)
hmpetro@mosaic.uncc.edu                   (Herbert M Petro)
smith-una@YALE.EDU                        (Una Smith)
mmt@RedBrick.COM                          (Maxime Taksar KC6ZPS)
urlichs@smurf.sub.org                     (Matthias Urlichs)
ac999266@umbc.edu                         (a Francis Uy)
werner@SOE.Berkeley.Edu                   (John Werner)
wick@netcom.com                           (Potter Wickware)
ggw@wolves.Durham.NC.US                   (Gregory G. Woodbury)
D.W.Wright@bnr.co.uk                      (D. Wright)
yarvin-norman@CS.YALE.EDU                 (Norman Yarvin)
ask@cblph.att.com
spm2d@opal.cs.virginia.edu

Here are the people who voted YES:

FSSPR@ACAD3.ALASKA.EDU                    (Hardcore Alaskan)
kalex@eecs.umich.edu                      (Ken Alexander)
ph600fht@sdcc14.UCSD.EDU                  (Alex Aumann)
franklin.balluff@Syntex.Com               (Franklin Balluff)
barash@umbc.edu                           (Mr. Steven Barash)
build@alan.b30.ingr.com               (Alan Barksdale (build))
lion@TheRat.Kludge.COM                    (John H. Barlow)
pbarto@UCENG.UC.EDU                       (Paul Barto)
ryan.bayne@canrem.com                     (Ryan Bayne)
mignon@shannon.Jpl.Nasa.Gov               (Mignon Belongie)
beaudot@tirf.grenet.fr                    (william Beaudot)
lavb@lise.unit.no                         (Olav Benum)
ross@bryson.demon.co.uk                   (Ross Beresford)
ben.best@canrem.com                       (Ben Best)
levi@happy-man.com                        (Levi Bitansky)
jsb30@dagda.Eng.Sun.COM                   (James Blomgren)
gbloom@nyx.cs.du.edu                      (Gregory Bloom)
mbrader@netcom.com                        (Mark Brader)
ebrandt@jarthur.Claremont.EDU             (Eli Brandt)
doom@leland.stanford.edu                  (Joseph Brenner)
rc@pos.apana.org.au                       (Robert Cardwell)
jeffjc@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca               (Jeffrey CHANCE)
sasha@cs.umb.edu                          (Alexander Chislenko)
mclark@world.std.com                      (Maynard S Clark)
100042.2703@CompuServe.COM                ("A.J. Clifford")
coleman@twinsun.com                       (Mike Coleman)
steve@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu        (Steve Coltrin)
collier@ivory.rtsg.mot.com                (John T. Collier)
compton@plains.NoDak.edu                  (Curtis M. Compton)
bobc@master.cna.tek.com                   (Bob Cook)
cordell@shaman.nexagen.com                (Bruce Cordell)
cormierj@ERE.UMontreal.CA                 (Cormier Jean-Marc)
djcoyle@macc.wisc.edu                     (Douglas J. Coyle)
dass0001@student.tc.umn.edu               ("John R Dassow-1")
bdd@onion.eng.hou.compaq.com              (Bruce Davis)
demonn@emunix.emich.edu                   (Kenneth Jubal DeMonn)
desilets@sj.ate.slb.com                   (Mark Desilets)
markd@sco.COM                             (Mark Diekhans)
kari@teracons.teracons.com                (Kari Dubbelman)
lhdsy1!cyberia.hou281.chevron.com!hwdub@uunet.UU.NET (Dub Dublin)
willdye@helios.unl.edu                    (Will Dye)
155yegan%jove.dnet.measurex.com@juno.measurex.com (TERRY EGAN)
eder@hsvaic.boeing.com                    (Dani Eder)
glenne@magenta.HQ.Ileaf.COM               (Glenn Ellingson)
farrar@adaclabs.com                       (Richard Farrar)
ghsvax!hal@uunet.UU.NET                   (Hal Finney)
lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM                   (Lee Fogel)
afoxx@foxxjac.b17a.ingr.com               (Foxx)
i000702@disc.dla.mil               (sam frajerman,sppb,x3026,)
mpf@medg.lcs.mit.edu                      (Michael P. Frank)
Martin.Franklin@Corp.Sun.COM              (Martin Franklin)
tiff@CS.UCLA.EDU                          (Tiffany Frazier)
Ailing_Zhu_Freeman@U.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU      (Ailing Freeman)
Timothy_Freeman@U.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU         (Tim Freeman)
gt0657c@prism.gatech.edu                  (geoff george)
mtvdjg@rivm.nl                            (Daniel Gijsbers)
exusag@exu.ericsson.se                    (Serena Gilbert)
rlglende@netcom.com                (Robert Lewis Glendenning)
goetz@cs.Buffalo.EDU                      (Phil Goetz)
goolsby@dg-rtp.dg.com                     (Chris Goolsby)
dgordon@crow.omni.co.jp                   (David Gordon)
bgrahame@eris.demon.co.uk                 (Robert D Grahame)
sascsg@unx.sas.com                        (Cynthia Grant)
green@srilanka.island.COM                 (Robert Greenstein)
johng@oce.orst.edu                        (John A. Gregor)
roger@netcom.com                          (roger gregory)
evans-ron@CS.YALE.EDU                     (Ron Hale-Evans)
brent@vpnet.chi.il.us                     (Brent Hansen)
Ron.G.Hay@med.umich.edu                   (Ron G. Hay)
akh@empress.gvg.tek.com                   (Anna K. Haynes)
claris!qm!Bob_Hearn@ames.arc.nasa.gov     (Robert Hearn)
fheyligh@vnet3.vub.ac.be                  (Francis Heylighen)
hin9@midway.uchicago.edu                  (P. Hindman)
fishe@casbah.acns.nwu.edu                 (Carwil James)
janzen@mprgate.mpr.ca                     (Martin Janzen)
karp@skcla.monsanto.com                   (Jeffery M Karp)
rk2@elsegundoca.ncr.com                   (Richard Kelly)
merklin@gnu.ai.mit.edu                    (Ed Kemo)
kessner@rintintin.Colorado.EDU            (KESSNER ERIC M)
mapam@csv.warwick.ac.uk                   (Mr R A Khwaja)
koski@sunset.cs.utah.edu                  (Keith Koski)
kathi@bridge.com                          (Kathi Kramer)
benkrug@jupiter.fnbc.com                  (Ben Krug)
farif@eskimo.com                          (David Kunz)
edsr!edsdrd!sel@uunet.UU.NET              (Steve Langs)
pa_hcl@MECENG.COE.NORTHEASTERN.EDU        (Henry Leong)
S.Linton@pmms.cam.ac.uk                   (Steve Linton)
alopez@cs.ep.utexas.EDU                   (Alejandro Lopez 6330)
kfl@access.digex.com                      ("Keith F. Lynch")
KAMCHAR@msu.edu                           (Charles MacDonald)
rob@vis.toronto.edu                       (Robert C. Majka)
phil@starconn.com                         (Phil Marks)
cam@jackatak.raider.net                   (Cameron Marshall)
mmay@mcd.intel.com                        (Mike May ~)
drac@uumeme.chi.il.us                     (Bruce Maynard)
i001269@discg2.disc.dla.mil               (john mccarrick)
xyzzy@imagen.com                          (David McIntyre)
cuhes@csv.warwick.ac.uk                   (Malcolm McMahon)
mcpherso@macvax.UCSD.EDU                  (John Mcpherson)
merkle@parc.xerox.com                     (Ralph Merkle)
eric@Synopsys.COM                         (Eric Messick)
pmetzger@shearson.com                     (Perry E. Metzger)
gmichael@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu                 (Gary R. Michael)
dat91mas@ludat.lth.se                     (Asker Mikael)
MILLERL@WILMA.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU           ("Loren J. Miller")
minsky@media.mit.edu                      (Marvin Minsky)
pmorris@lamar.ColoState.EDU               (Paul Morris)
Mark_Muhlestein@Novell.COM                (Mark Muhlestein)
david@staff.udc.upenn.edu                 (R. David Murray)
gananney@mosaic.uncc.edu                  (Glenn A Nanney)
anthony@meaddata.com                      (Anthony Napier)
dniman@panther.win.net                    (Donald E. Niman)
nistuk@unixg.ubc.ca                       (Richard Nistuk)
Jonathan@RMIT.EDU.AU                      (Jonathan O'Donnell)
martino@gomez.Jpl.Nasa.Gov                (Martin R. Olah)
cpatil@leland.stanford.edu          (Christopher Kashina Patil)
crp5754@erfsys01.boeing.com               (Chris Payne)
sharon@acri.fr                            (Sharon Peleg)
php@rhi.hi.is                             (Petur Henry Petersen)
chrisp@efi.com                            (Chris Phoenix)
pierce@CS.UCLA.EDU                        (Brad Pierce)
julius@math.utah.edu                      ("Julius Pierce")
dplatt@cellar.org                         (Doug Platt)
Mitchell.Porter@lambada.oit.unc.edu       (Mitchell Porter)
cpresson@jido.b30.ingr.com                (Craig Presson)
price@price.demon.co.uk                   (Michael Clive Price)
U39554@UICVM.BITNET                       (Edward S. Proctor)
stevep@deckard.Works.ti.com               (Steve Pruitt)
MJQUINN@PUCC.BITNET                       (Michael Quinn)
rauss@nvl.army.mil                        (Patrick Rauss)
remke@cs.tu-berlin.de                     ("Jan K. Remke")
ag167@yfn.ysu.edu                         (Barry H. Rodin)
ksackett@cs.uah.edu                       (Karl R. Sackett)
rcs@cs.arizona.edu                        (Richard Schroeppel)
fschulz@pyramid.com                       (Frank Schulz)
kws@Thunder-Island.kalamazoo.MI.US        (Karel W. Sebek)
bseewald@gozer.idbsu.edu                  (Brad Seewald)
shapard@manta.nosc.mil                    (Thomas D. Shapard)
habs@Panix.Com                            (Harry Shapiro)
muir@idiom.berkeley.ca.us                 (David Muir Sharnoff)
dasher@well.sf.ca.us                      (D Anton Sherwood)
zero@netcom.com                           (Richard Shiflett)
AP201160@BROWNVM.BITNET                   (Elaine Shiner)
robsho@robsho.Auto-trol.COM               (Robert Shock)
rshvern@gmuvax2.gmu.edu                   (Rob Shvern)
wesiegel@cie-2.uoregon.edu                (William Siegel)
ggyygg@mixcom.mixcom.com                  (Kenton Sinner)
bsmart@bsmart.tti.com                     (Bob Smart)
tonys@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU            (Anthony David Smith)
sgccsns@citecuc.citec.oz.au               (Shayne Noel Smith)
dsnider@beta.tricity.wsu.edu              (Daniel L Snider)
snyderg@spot.Colorado.EDU                 (SNYDER GARY EDWIN JR)
blupe@ruth.fullfeed.com                   (Brian Arthur Stewart)
lhdsy1!usmi02.midland.chevron.com!tsfsi@uunet.UU.NET (Sigrid
Stewart)
nat@netcom.com                            (Nathaniel Stitt)
tps@biosym.com                            (Tom Stockfisch)
stodolsk@andromeda.rutgers.edu            (David Stodolsky)
gadget@dcs.warwick.ac.uk                  (Steve Strong)
carey@CS.UCLA.EDU                         (Carey Sublette)
jsuttor@netcom.com                        (Jeff Suttor)
swain@cernapo.cern.ch                     (John Swain)
szabo@techbook.com                        (Nick Szabo)
ptheriau@netcom.com                       (P. Chris Theriault)
ak051@yfn.ysu.edu                         (Chris Thompson)
gunnar.thoresen@bio.uio.no                (Gunnar Thoresen)
dreamer@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu                  (Andrew Trapp)
jerry@cse.lbl.gov                         (Jerry Tunis)
music@parcom.ernet.in                     (Rajeev Upadhye)
treon@u.washington.edu                    (Treon Verdery)
evore@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu           (Eric J Vore)
U13054@UICVM.BITNET                       (Howard Wachtel)
susan@wpi.WPI.EDU                         (Susan C Wade)
70023.3041@CompuServe.COM                 (Paul Wakfer)
ewalker@it.berklee.edu                    ("Elaine Walker")
jew@rt.sunquest.com                       (James Ward)
jeremy@ai.mit.edu                         (Jeremy M. Wertheimer)
bw@ws029.torreypinesca.NCR.COM            (Bruce White 3807)
weeds@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com             (Mark Wiedman)
wiesel-elisha@CS.YALE.EDU                 (Elisha Wiesel)
WILLINGP@gar.union.edu                    (WILLING, PAUL)
smw@alcor.concordia.ca                    (Steven Winikoff)
wright@hicomb.hi.com                      (David Wright)
ebusew@anah.ericsson.com                  (Stephen Wright 66667)
liquidx@cnexus.cts.com                    (Liquid-X)
xakellis@uivlsisl.csl.uiuc.edu            (Michael G. Xakellis)
cs012113@cs.brown.edu                     (Ion Yannopoulos)
yazz@lccsd.sd.locus.com                   (Bob Yazz)
lnz@lucid.com                             (Leonard N. Zubkoff)
62RSE@npd1.ufpe.br
adwyer@mason1.gmu.edu
ART@EMBL-Hamburg.DE
atfurman@cup.portal.com
billw@attmail.att.com
carl@red-dragon.umbc.edu
carlf@ai.mit.edu
cccbbs!chris.thompson@UCENG.UC.EDU
CCGARCIA@MIZZOU1.BITNET
clayb@cellar.org
dack@permanet.org
daedalus@netcom.com
danielg@autodesk.com
Dave-M@cup.portal.com
F_GRIFFITH@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU
garcia@husc.harvard.edu
gav@houxa.att.com
hammar@cs.unm.edu
herbison@lassie.ucx.lkg.dec.com
hhuang@Athena.MIT.EDU
hkhenson@cup.portal.com
irving@happy-man.com
jeckel@amugw.aichi-med-u.ac.jp
jgs@merit.edu
jmeritt@mental.mitre.org
Jonas_Marten_Fjallstam@cup.portal.com
kqb@whscad1.att.com
LPOMEROY@velara.sim.es.com
lubkin@apollo.hp.com
kunert@wustlb.wustl.edu
LINYARD_M@XENOS.a1.logica.co.uk
M.Michelle.Wrightwatson@att.com
moselecw@elec.canterbury.ac.nz
naoursla@eos.ncsu.edu
ng4@husc.harvard.edu
pase70!dchapman@uwm.edu
pocock@math.utah.edu
RUDI@HSD.UVic.CA
SCOTTJOR@delphi.com
stanton@ide.com
steveha@microsoft.com
stu1016@DISCOVER.WRIGHT.EDU
SYang.ES_AE@xerox.com
tim.hruby@his.com
Todd.Kaufmann@FUSSEN.MT.CS.CMU.EDU
tom@genie.slhs.udel.edu
UC482529@MIZZOU1.BITNET
WMILLER@clust1.clemson.edu
yost@mv.us.adobe.com

(The group still passes if you don't count the people for
whom I just have email address.)


For all those people who insist I question authority: Why?

Chris Mussack


These players all are pretty good players.  They are the depth that the
dynasties had to win Stanley Cups.  They tend to be the very good second
line guys- who would be first liners on most weaker clubs in the NHL.
They were all important to their clubs.  Probably, several of these
Stanley Cup winning teams would not have won the cups they did if it
were not for the depth provided by these players.

They compare to Rick Tocchet and Ron Francis of the Penguins.  Very good
players who can lead lesser teams (Francis-Hartford, Tocchet-Philly) who
provide the depth to the team that is currently best in the NHL.

As a defensive forward, there have been none better than Bob Gainey.  That
doesn't mean he was the best player (or even the best forward) the Canadians
had at that time, but he was excellent at what he did.  Gainey could
dominate games with his defence.  He didn't need to get goals to dominate.
He shut down the opposition and was thus valuable.  There has never been
anyone any better at doing this.  Not ever.