Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #008 Part A
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

				(Part A of #008)

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      |                                                                  |
      | "Oh, yes, I just remembered. While they were raping me they      |
      |  repeated quite frequently, "Let the Armenian women have babies  |
      |  for us, Muslim babies, let them bear Azerbaijanis for the       |
      |  struggle against the Armenians." Then they said, "Those         |
      |  Muslims can carry on our holy cause. Heroes!" They repeated     |
      |  it very often."                                                 |
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DEPOSITION OF LYUDMILA GRIGOREVNA M.

   Born 1959
   Teacher
   Sumgait Secondary School No. 10
   Secretary of the Komsomol Organization at School No. 10
   Member of the Sumgait City Komsomol Committee Office

   Resident at Building 17/33B, Apartment 15
   Microdistrict No. 3
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]

[Note: The events in Kafan, used as a pretext to attack Armenians in
 Azerbaijan are false, as verified by independent International Human Rights
 organizations - DD]

I'm thinking about the price the Sumgait Armenians paid to be living in
Armenia now. We paid for it in human casualties and crippled fates--the
price was too great! Now, after the Sumgait tragedy, we, the victims, divide
our lives into "before" and ''after." We talk like that: that was before the
war. Like the people who went through World War II and considered it a whole
epoch, a fate. No matter how many years go by, no matter how long we live,
it will never be forgotten. On the contrary, some of the moments become even
sharper: in our rage, in our sorrow, we saw everything differently, but now
. . . They say that you can see more with distance, and we can see those
inhuman events with more clarity now . . . we more acutely perceive our
losses and everything that happened.

Nineteen eighty-eight was a leap year. Everyone fears a leap year and wants it
to pass as quickly as possible. Yet we never thought that that leap year would
be such a black one for every Sumgait Armenian: those who lost someone and
those who didn't.

That second to last day of winter was ordinary for our family, although you
could already smell danger in the air. But we didn't think that the danger was
near and possible, so we didn't take any steps to save ourselves. At least, as
my parents say, at least we should have done something to save the children.
My parents themselves are not that old, 52 and 53 years. But then they thought
that they had already lived enough, and did everything they could to save us.

In our apartment the tragedy started on February 28, around five in the
afternoon. I call it a tragedy, and I repeat: it was a tragedy even though all
our family survived. When I recall how they broke down our door my skin
crawls; even now, among Armenians, among people who wish me only well, I feel
like it's all starting over again. I remember how that mob broke into our
apartment . . . My parents were standing in the hall. My father had an axe in
his hands and had immediately locked both of the doors. Our door was rarely
locked since friends and neighbors often dropped by. We're known as a
hospitable family, and we just never really thought about whether the people
who were coming to see us were Azerbaijanis, Jews, or Russians. We had friends
of many nationalities, even a Turkmen woman.

My parents were in the hall, my father with an axe. I remember him telling my
mother, "Run to the kitchen for a knife." But Mother was detached, pale, as
though she had decided to sell her life a bit dearer. To be honest I never
expected it of her, she's afraid of getting shot and afraid of the dark. A
girlfriend was at the house that day, a Russian girl, Lyuda, and Mamma said,
"No matter what happens, no matter what they do to us, you're not to come out
of the bedroom. We're going to tell them that we're alone in the apartment."

We went into the bedroom. There were four of us. Marina and the Russian girl
crawled under the bed, and we covered them up with a rug, boxes of dishes, and
Karina and I are standing there and looking at one another. The idea that
perhaps we were seeing each other for the last time flashed somewhere inside
me. I'm an emotional person and I express my emotions immediately. I wanted to
embrace her and kiss her, as though it were the last second. And maybe Karina
was thinking the same thing, but she's quite reserved. We didn't have time to
say anything to each other because we immediately heard Mamma raise a shout.
There was so much noise from the tramping of feet, from the shouting, and from
excited voices. I couldn't figure what was going on out there because the door
to the bedroom was only open a crack. But when Mamma shouted the second time
Karina ran out of the bedroom. I ran after her, I had wanted to hold her back,
but when she opened the door and ran out into the hall they saw us
immediately. The only thing I managed to do was close the door behind me, at
least so as to save Marina and her friend. The mob was shouting, all of their
eyes were shining, all red, like from insomnia. At first about 40 people burst
in, but later I was standing with my back to the door and couldn't see. They
came into the hall, into the kitchen, and dragged my father into the other
room. He didn't utter a word, he just raised the axe to hit them, but Mamma
snatched the axe from behind and said, "Tell them not to touch the children.
Tell them they can do as they want with us, but not to harm the children." She
said this to Father in Armenian.

There were Azerbaijanis from Armenia among the mob who broke in. They
understood Armenian perfectly. The local Azerbaijanis don't know Armenian,
they don't need to speak it. And one of them responded in Armenian: "You and
your children both . . . we're going to do the same thing to you and your
children that you Armenians did in Kafan. They killed our women, our girls,
our mothers, they cut their breasts off, and burned our houses . . . ," and
so on and so forth, "and we came to do the same thing to you." This whole time
some of them are destroying the house and the others are shouting at us. They
were mostly young people, under 30. At first there weren't any older people
among them. And all of their faces were unfamiliar. Sumgait is a small town,
all the same, and we know a lot of people by their faces, especially me, I'm
a teacher.

So they dragged my father into the other room. They twisted his arms and took
him in there, no they didn't take him in there, they dragged him in there,
because he was already unable to walk. They closed the door to that room all
but a crack. We couldn't see what was happening to Father, what they were
doing to him. Then a young man, about 26 years old, started to tear off
Mamma's sarafan, and Mamma shouted at him in Azerbaijani: "I'm old enough to
be your mother! What are you doing?!" He struck her. Now he's being held,
Mamma identified him. I hope he's convicted. Then they went after Karina,
who's been talking to them like a Komsomol leader, as though she were trying
to lead them down a different path, as they say, to influence their
consciousness. She told them that what they were doing was wrong, that they
mustn't do it. She said, "Come on, let's straighten this out, without
emotions. What do you want? Who are you? Why did you come here? What did we
ever do to you?" Someone tried to explain who they were and why they had come
into our home, but then the ones in the back--more of them kept coming and
coming--said, "What are you talking to, them for. You should kill them. We
came here to kill them."

They pushed Karina, struck her, and she fell down. They beat her, but she
didn't cry out. Even when they tore her clothes off, she kept repeating, "What
did we do to you? What did we do to you?" And even later, when she came to,
she said, "Mamma, what did we do to them? Why did they do that to us?"

That group was prepared, I know this because I noticed that some of them only
broke up furniture, and others only dealt with us. I remember that when they
were beating me, when they were tearing my clothes off, I felt neither pain
nor shame because my entire attention was riveted to Karina. All I could do
was watch how much they beat her and how painful it was for her, and what they
did to her. That's why I felt no pain. Later, when they carried Karina off,
they beat her savagely . . . It's really amazing that she not only lived, but
didn't lose her mind . She is very beautiful and they did everything they
could to destroy her beauty. Mostly they beat her face, with their fists,
kicking her, using anything they could find.

Mamma, Karina, and I were all in one room. And again I didn't feel any pain,
just didn't feel any, no matter how much they beat me, no matter what they
did. Then one of those creeps said that there wasn't enough room in the
apartment. They broke up the beds and the desk and moved everything into the
corners so there would be more room. Then someone suggested, "Let's take her
outside."

Those beasts were in Heaven. They did what they would do every day if they
weren't afraid of the authorities. Those were their true colors. At the time
I thought that in fact they would always behave that way if they weren't
afraid of what would happen to them.

When they carried Karina out and beat Mamma-her face was completely covered
with blood--that's when I started to feel the pain. I blacked out several
times from the pain, but each moment that I had my eyes open it was as though
I were recording it all on film. I think I'm a kind person by nature, but I'm
vengeful, especially if someone is mean to me, and I don't deserve it. I hold
a grudge a long time if someone intentionally causes me pain. And every time
I would come to and see one of those animals on top of me, I'd remember them,
and I'll remember them for the rest of my life, even though people tell me
"forget," you have to forget, you have to go on living.

At some point I remember that they stood me up and told me something, and
despite the fact that I hurt all over--I had been beaten terribly--I found
the strength in myself to interfere with their tortures. I realized that I had
to do something: resist them or just let them kill me to bring my suffering
to an end. I pushed one of them away, he was a real horse. I remember now that
he's being held, too. As though they were all waiting for it, they seized me
and took me out onto the balcony. I had long hair, and it was stuck all over
me. One of the veranda shutters to the balcony was open, and I realized that
they planned to throw me out the window, because they had already picked me up
with their hands, I was up in the air. As though for the last time I took a
really deep breath and closed my eyes, and somehow braced myself inside, I
suddenly became cold, as though my heart had sunk into my feet. And suddenly
I felt myself flying. I couldn't figure out if I was really flying or if I
just imagined it. When I came to I thought now I'm going to smash on the
ground. And when it didn't happen I opened my eyes and realized that I was
still lying on the floor. And since I didn't scream, didn't beg them at all,
they became all the more wild, like wolves. They started to trample me with
their feet. Shoes with heels on them, and iron horseshoes, like they had spe-
cially put them on. Then I lost consciousness.

I came to a couple of times and waited for death, summoned it, beseeched it.
Some people ask for good health, life, happiness, but at that moment I didn't
need any of those things. I was sure that none of us would survive, and I had
even forgotten about Marina; and if none of us was alive, it wasn't worth
living.

There was a moment when the pain was especially great. I withstood inhuman
pain, and realized that they were going to torment me for a long time to come
because I had showed myself to be so tenacious. I started to strangle myself,
and when I started to wheeze they realized that with my death I was going to
put an end to their pleasures, and they pulled my hands from my throat. The
person who injured and insulted me most painfully I remember him very well,
because he was the oldest in the group. He looked around 48. I know that he
has four children and that he considers himself an ideal father and person,
one who would never do such a thing. Something came over him then, you see,
even during the investigation he almost called me "daughter," he apologized,
although, of course, he knew that I'd never forgive him. Something like that
I can never forgive. I have never injured anyone with my behavior, with my
words, or with my deeds, I have always put myself in the other person's shoes,
but then, in a matter of hours, they trampled me entirely. I shall never
forget it.

I wanted to do myself in then, because I had nothing to lose, because no one
could protect me. My father, who tried to do something against that hoard of
beasts by himself, could do nothing and wouldn't be able to do anything.
I knew that I was even sure that he was no longer alive.

And Ira Melkumian, my acquaintance I knew her and had been to see her family a
couple of times--her brother tried to save her and couldn't, so he tried to
kill her, his very own sister. He threw an axe at her to kill her and put an
end to her suffering. When they stripped her clothes off and carried her into
the other room, her brother knew what awaited her. I don't know which one it
was, Edik or Igor. Both of them were in the room from which the axe was
thrown. But the axe hit one of the people carrying her and so they killed her
and made her death even more excruciating, maybe the most excruciating of all
the deaths of those days in Sumgait. I heard about it all from the neighbor
from the Melkumians' landing. His name is Makhaddin, he knows my family a
little. He came to see how we had gotten settled in the new apartment in Baku,
how we were feeling, and if we needed anything. He's a good person. He said,
"You should praise God that you all survived. But what I saw with my own eyes,
I, a man, who has seen so many people die, who has lived a whole life, I," he
says, "nearly lost my mind that day. I had never seen the likes of it and
think I never shall again." The door to his apartment was open and he saw
everything. One of the brothers threw the axe, because they had already taken
the father and mother out of the apartment. Igor, Edik, and Ira remained. He
saw Ira, naked, being carried into the other room in the hands of six or seven
people. He told us about it and said he would never forget it. He heard the
brothers shouting something, inarticulate from pain, rage, and the fact that
they were powerless to do anything. But all the same they tried to
do something. The guy who got hit with the axe lived.                                                                           I     I

After I had been unsuccessful at killing myself I saw them taking Marina and
Lyuda out of the bedroom. I was in such a state that I couldn't even
remember my sister's name. I wanted to cry "Marina!" out to her, but could
not. I looked at her and knew that it was a familiar, dear face, but couldn't
for the life of me remember what her name was and who she was. And thus
I saved her, because when they were taking her out, she, as it turns out, had
told them that she had just been visiting and that she and Lyuda were both
there by chance, that they weren't Armenians. Lyuda's a Russian, you can tell
right away, and Marina speaks Azerbaijani wonderfully and she told them that
she was an Azerbaijani. And I almost gave her away and doomed her. I'm glad
that at least Marina came out of this all in good physical health . . .
although her spirit was murdered . . .

At some point I came to and saw Igor, Igor Agayev, my acquaintance, in that
mob. He lives in the neighboring building. For some reason I remembered his
name, maybe I sensed my defense in him. I called out to him in Russian, "Igor,
help!" But he turned away and went into the bedroom. Just then they were
taking Marina and Lyuda out of the bedroom. Igor said he knew Marina and
Lyuda, that Marina in fact was Azerbaijani, and he took both of them to the
neighbors.

And the idea stole through me that maybe Igor had led them to our apartment,
something like that, but if he was my friend, he was supposed to save me.

Then they were striking me very hard--we have an Indian vase, a metal one,
they were hitting me on the back with it and I blacked out--they took me out
onto the balcony a second time to throw me out the window. They were already
sure that I was dead because I didn't react at all to the new blows. Someone
said, "She's already dead, let's throw her out." When they carried me out onto
the balcony for the second time, when I was about to die the second time, I
heard someone say in Azerbaijani: "Don't kill her, I know her, she's a
teacher." I can still hear that voice ringing in my ears, but I can't remember
whose voice it was. It wasn't Igor, because he speaks Azerbaijani with an
accent: his mother is Russian and they speak Russian at home. He speaks
Azerbaijani worse than our Marina does. I remember when they carried me in and
threw me on the bed he came up to me, that person, and 	I having opened my
eyes, saw and recognized that person, but immediately passed out cold. I had
been beaten so much that I didn't have the strength to remember him. I only
remember that this person was older and he had a high position. Unfortunately
I can't remember anything more.

What should I say about Igor? He didn't treat me badly. I had heard a lot
about him, that he wasn't that good a person, that he sometimes drank too
much. Once he boasted to me that he had served in Afghanistan. He knew that
women usually like bravery in a man. Especially if a man was in Afghanistan,
if he was wounded, then it's about eighty percent sure that he will be treated
very sympathetically, with respect. Later I found out that he had served in
Ufa, and was injured, but that's not in Afghanistan, of course. I found that
all out later.

Among the people who were in our apartment, my Karina also saw the Secretary
of the Party organization. I don't know his last name, his first name is
Najaf, he is an Armenian-born Azerbaijani. But later Karina wasn't so sure,
she was no longer a hundred percent sure that it was he she saw, and she
didn't want to endanger him. She said, "He was there," and a little while
later, "Maybe they beat me so much that I am confusing him with someone else.
No, it seems like it was he." I am sure it was he because when he came to see
us the first time he said one thing, and the next time he said something
entirely different. The investigators haven't summoned him yet. He came to see
us in the Khimik boarding house where we were living at the time. He brought
groceries and flowers, this was right before March 8th; he almost started
crying, he was so upset to see our condition. I don't know if he was putting
us on or not, but later, after we had told the investigator and they summoned
him to the Procuracy, he said that he had been in Baku, he wasn't in Sumgait.
The fact that he changed his testimony leads me to believe that Karina is
right, that in fact it was he who was in our apartment. I don't know how the
investigators are now treating him. At one point I wondered and asked, and was
told that he had an alibi and was not in our apartment. Couldn't he have gone
to Baku and arranged an alibi? I'm not ruling out that possibility.

Ill now return to our apartment. Mamma had come to. You could say that she
bought them off with the gold Father gave her when they were married: her
wedding band and her watch were gold. She bought her own and her husband's
lives with them. She gave the gold to a 14-year old boy. Vadim Vorobyev. A
Russian boy, he speaks Azerbaijani perfectly. He's an orphan who was raised by
his grandfather and who lives in Sumgait on Nizami Street. He goes to a
special school, one for mentally handicapped children. But I'll say this--I'm
a teacher all the same and in a matter of minutes I can form an opinion--that
boy is not at all mentally handicapped. He's healthy, he can think just fine,
and analyze, too . . . policemen should be so lucky. And he's cunning, too.
After that he went home and tore all of the pictures out of his photo album.

He beat Mamma and demanded gold, saying, "Lady, if you give us all the gold
and money in your apartment we'll let you live." And Mamma told them where
the gold was. He brought in the bag and opened it, shook out the contents, and
everyone who was in the apartment jumped on it, started knocking each other
over and taking the gold from one another. I'm surprised they didn't kill one
another right then.

Mamma was still in control of herself. She had been beaten up, her face was
black and blue from the blows, and her eyes were filled with blood, and she
ran into the other room. Father was lying there, tied up, with a gag in his
mouth and a pillow over his face. There was a broken table on top of the pil-
low. Mamma grabbed Father and he couldn't walk; like me, he was half dead,
halfway into the other world. He couldn't comprehend anything, couldn't see,
and was covered with black and blue. Mamma pulled the gag out of his mouth,
it was some sort of cloth, I think it was a slipcover from an armchair.

The bandits were still in our apartment, even in the room Mamma pulled Father
out of, led him out of, carried him out of. We had two armchairs in that room,
a small magazine table, a couch, a television, and a screen. Three people
were standing next to that screen, and into their shirts, their pants,
everywhere imaginable, they were shoving shot glasses and cups from the coffee
service--Mamma saw them out of the corner of her eye. She said, "I was afraid
to turn around, I just seized Father and started pulling him, but at the
threshold I couldn't hold him up, he fell down, and I picked him up again and
dragged him down the stairs to the neighbors'." Mamma remembered one of the
criminals, the one who had watched her with his face half-turned toward her,
out of one eye. She says, "I realized that my death would come from that
person. I looked him in the eyes and he recoiled from fear and went stealing."
Later they caught that scoundrel. Meanwhile, Mamma grabbed Father and left.

I was alone. Igor had taken Marina away, Mamma and Father were gone, Karina
was already outside, I didn't know what they were doing to her. I was left all
alone, and at that moment . . . I became someone else, do you understand? Even
though I knew that neither Mother and Father in the other room, nor Marina and
Lyuda under the bed could save me, all the same I somehow managed to hold out.
I went on fighting them, I bit someone, I remember, and I scratched another.
But when I was left alone I realized what kind of people they were, the ones
I had observed, the ones who beat Karina, what kind of people they were, the
ones who beat me, that it was all unnecessary, that I was about to die and
that all of that would die with me.

At some point I took heart when I saw the young man from the next building. I
didn't know his name, but we would greet one another when we met, we knew that
we were from the same microdistrict. When I saw him I said, "Neighbor, is that
you?" In so doing I placed myself in great danger. He realized that if I lived
I would remember him. That's when he grabbed the axe. The axe that had been
taken from my father. I automatically fell to my knees and raised my hands to
take the blow of the axe, although at the time it would have been better if he
had struck me in the head with the axe and put me out of my misery. When he
started getting ready to wind back for the blow, someone came into the room.
The newcomer had such an impact on everyone that my neighbor's axe froze in
the air. Everyone stood at attention for this guy, like soldiers in the
presence of a general. Everyone waited for his word: continue the atrocities
or not. He said, "Enough, let's go to the third entryway." In the third
entryway they killed Uncle Shurik, Aleksandr Gambarian. This confirms once
again that they had prepared in advance. Almost all of them left with him, as
they went picking up pillows, blankets, whatever they needed, whatever they
found, all the way up to worn out slippers and one boot, someone else had
already taken the other.

Four people remained in the room, soldiers who didn't obey their general. They
had to have come recently, because other faces had flashed in front of me over
those 2 to 3 hours, but I had never seen those three. One of them, Kuliyev (I
identified him later), a native of the Sisian District of Armenia, an
Azerbaijani, had moved to Azerbaijan a year before. He told me in Armenian:
"Sister, don't be afraid, I'll drive those three Azerbaijanis out of here."
That's just what he said, "those Azerbaijanis," as though he himself were not
Azerbaijani, but some other nationality, he said with such hatred, "I'll drive
them out of here now, and you put your clothes on, and find a hammer and nails
and nail the door shut, because they'll be coming back from Apartment 41."
That's when I found out that they had gone to Apartment 41. Before that, the
person in the Eskimo dogskin coat, the one who came in and whom they listened
to, the "general," said that they were going to the third entryway.

Kuliyev helped me get some clothes on, because l couldn't do it by myself.
Marina's old fur coat was lying on the floor. He threw it over my shoulders, I
was racked with shivers, and he asked where he could find nails and a hammer.
He wanted to give them to me so that when he left I could nail the door shut.
But the door was lying on the floor in the hall.

I went out onto the balcony. There were broken windows, and flowers and dirt
from flowerpots were scattered on the floor. It was impossible to find
anything. He told me, "Well, fine, I won't leave you here. Would any of the
neighbors let you in? They'll be back, they won't calm down, they know you're
alive." He told me all this in Armenian.

Then he returned to the others and said, "What are you waiting for? Leave!"
They said, "Ah, you just want to chase us out of here and do it with her
yourself. No, we want to do it to." He urged them on, but gently, not
coarsely, because he was alone against them, although they were still just
boys, not old enough to be drafted. He led them out of the room, and went
down to the third floor with them himself, and said, "Leave. What's the mat-
ter, aren't you men? Go fight with the men. What do you want of her?" And
he came back upstairs. They wanted to come up after him and he realized that
he couldn't hold them off forever. Then he asked me where he could hide me. I
told him at the neighbors' on the fourth floor, Apartment 10, we were on really
good terms with them.

We knocked on the door, and he explained in Azerbaijani. The neighbor woman
opened the door and immediately said, "I'm an Azerbaijani." He said, "I know.
Let her sit at your place a while. Don't open the door to anyone, no one knows
about this, I won't tell anyone. Let her stay at your place." She says, "Fine,
have her come in." I went in. She cried a bit and gave me some stockings, I
had gone entirely numb and was racked with nervous shudders. I burst into
tears. Even though I was wearing Marina's old fur coat, it's a short one, a
half-length, I was cold all the same. I asked, "Do you know where my family
is, what happened to them?" She says, "No, I don't know anything. I'm afraid
to go out of the apartment, now they're so wild that they don't look to see
who's Azerbaijani and who's Armenian." Kuliyev left. Ten minutes later my
neighbor says, "You know, Lyuda, I don't want to lose my life because of you,
or my son and his wife. Go stay with someone else." During the butchery in our
apartment one of the scum, a sadist, took my earring in his mouth--I had pearl
earrings on--and ripped it out, tearing the earlobe. The other earring was
still there. When I'm nervous I fix my hair constantly, and then, when I
touched my ear, I noticed that I had one earring on. I took it out and gave it
to her. She took the earring, but she led me out of the apartment.

I went out and didn't know where to go. I heard someone going upstairs. I
don't know who it was but assumed it was them. With tremendous difficulty I
end up to our apartment, I wanted to die in my own home. I go into the
apartment and hear that they are coming up to our place, to the fifth floor.
I had to do something. I went into the bedroom where Marina and Lyuda had
hidden and saw that the bed was overturned. Instead of hiding I squatted near
some broken Christmas ornaments, found an unbroken one, and started sobbing.
Then they came in. Someone said that there were still some things to take. I
think that someone pushed me under the bed. I lay on the floor, and there were
broken ornaments on it, under my head and legs. I got all cut up, but I lay
there without moving. My heart was beating so hard it seemed the whole town
could hear it. There were no lights on. Maybe that's what saved me. They were
burning matches, and toward the end they brought in a candle. They started
picking out the clothes that could still be worn. They took Father's sport
jacket and a bedspread, the end of which was under my head. They pulled on the
one end, and it felt like they were pulling my hair out. I almost cried out.
And again I realized I wasn't getting out of there alive, and I started to
strangle myself again. I took my throat in one hand, and pressed the other on
my mouth, so as not to wheeze, so that I would die and they would only find me
afterward. They were throwing the burned matches under the bed, and I got
burned, but I withstood it. Something inside of me held on, someone's hand was
protecting me to the end. I knew that I was going to die, but I didn't know
how. I knew that if I survived I would walk out of that apartment, but if
I found out that one of my family had died, I would die for sure, because I
had never been so close to death and couldn't imagine how you could go on
living without your mother or father, or without your sister. Marina, I
thought, was still alive: she went to Lyuda's place or someone is hiding her.
I tried to think that Igor wouldn't let them be killed. He served in
Afghanistan, he should protect her.

While I was strangling myself I said my good-byes to everyone. And then I
thought, how could Marina survive alone. If they killed all of us, how would
she live all by herself? There were six people in the room. They talked among
themselves and smoked. One talked about his daughter, saying that there was no
children's footwear in our apartment that he could take for his daughter.
Another said that he liked the apartment--recently we had done a really good
job fixing everything up--and that he would live there after everything was
all over. They started to argue. A third one says, "How come you get it? I
have four children, and there are three rooms here, that's just what I need.
All these years I've been living in God-awful places." Another one says,
"Neither of you gets it. We'll set fire to it and leave." Then someone said
that Azerbaijanis live right next door, the fire could move over to their
place. And they, to my good fortune, didn't set fire to the apartment, and
left.

Oh, yes, I just remembered. While they were raping me they repeated quite
frequently, "Let the Armenian women have babies for us, Muslim babies, let
them bear Azerbaijanis for the struggle against the Armenians." Then they
said, "Those Muslims can carry on our holy cause. Heroes!" They repeated it
very often.

		     - - - reference for #008 - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 118-145


Anyone have any opinions on fairly recent model Alfa Spiders ( 86-> )

Reliablilty for what their class ( I'm not talking Alfa vs. Toyota corrola
which is more relaible )

As far as I can discern, in recent years, there are 3 levels with all
basically the same mechanical aspects.

Please email any responses


I always like your kind of odds. The Greek governments must be held
to account for the sub-human conditions of the Turkish minority living
in the Western Thrace under the brutal Greek domination. The religious
persecution, cultural oppression and economical ex-communication applied
to the Turkish population in that area are the dimensions of the human
rights abuse widespread in Greece.

"Greece's Housing Policies Worry Western Thrace Turks"

...Newly built houses belonging to members of the minority
community in Dedeagac province, had, he said, been destroyed
by Evros province public works department on Dec. 4.

Sungar added that they had received harsh treatment by the
security forces during the demolition.

"This is not the first demolition in Dedeagac province; more
than 40 houses were destroyed there between 1979-1984 and
members of that minority community were made homeless," he
continued.

"Greece Government Rail-Roads Two Turkish Ethnic Deputies"

While World Human Rights Organizations Scream, Greeks
Persistently Work on Removing the Parliamentary Immunity
of Dr. Sadik Ahmet and Mr. Ahmet Faikoglu.

In his 65-page confession, Salman Demirok, a former chief of PKK
operations in Hakkari confessed that high-level relations between
PKK, Greece and Greek Cypriot administration existed.

According to Demirok, Greek Cypriot administration not only
gives shelter to PKK guerillas but also supplies them with
food and weapons at the temporary camps set up in its territory.
Demirok disclosed that PKK has three safe houses in South Cyprus,
used by terrorists such as Ferhat. In the camps, he added,
terrorists were trained to use various weapons including RPG's
and anti-aircraft guns which had been purchased directly from
the Greek government. Greek Cypriot government has gone to the
extent of issuing special identification cards to PKK members so
that they can travel from one region to another without being
confronted by legal obstacles. Demirok's account was confirmed
by another PKK defector, Fatih Tan, who gave himself over to
police in Hakkari after spending four years with PKK. Tan explained
that the terrorists went through a training in camps in South Cyprus,
sometimes for a period of 12 weeks or more.

         "Torture in Greece: Hidden Reality"

Case 1: Kostas Andreadis and Dimitris Voglis.

...Andreadis' head was covered with a hood and he was tortured
by falanga (beating on the soles of the feet), electric shocks,
and was threatened with being thrown out of the window. An
official medical report clearly documented this torture....

Case 2: Horst Bosniatzki, a West German Citizen.

...At midnight he was taken to the beach, chains were put to his
feet and he was threatened to be thrown to the sea. He was dragged
along the beach for about a 1.5 Km while being punched on the
head and kidneys...Back on the police station, he was beaten
on the finger tips with a thin stick until one of the fingertips
split open....

Case 3: Torture of Dimitris Voglis.

Case 4: Brothers Vangelis (16) and Christos Arabatzis (12),
        Vasilis Papadopoulos (13), and Kostas Kiriazis (13).

Case 5: Torture of Eight Students at Thessaloniki Police
        Headquarters.

       SOURCE: The British Broadcasting Corporation, Summary of
               World  Broadcasting -July 6, 1987: Part 4-A: The
               Middle East, ME/8612/A/1.

              "Abu Nidal's Advisers" Reportedly Training
                  "PKK & ASALA Militants" in Cyprus

       Nicosia, Ankara,  Tel Aviv. The Israeli  secret service,
       Mossad,  is   reported  to  have   acquired  significant
       information in connection  with the camps set  up in the
       Troodos  mountains   in  Cyprus  for  the   training  of
       militants of the PKK and ASALA {Armenian Secret Army for
       the Liberation  of Armenia}. According to  sources close
       to Mossad, about 700 Kurdish, Greek Cypriot and Armenian
       militants  are   undergoing  training  in   the  Troodos
       mountains in  southern Cyprus.  The same  sources stated
       that Abu  Nidal's special  advisers are  giving military
       training to  the PKK and  ASALA militants in  the camps.
       They added that the  militants leave southern Cyprus for
       Libya, Lebanon, Syria, Greece  and Iran after completing
       their training.  Mossad has established that  due to the
       clashes  which were  taking  place  among the  terrorist
       groups based  in Syria, the PKK  and ASALA organisations
       moved to  the Greek Cypriot  part of Cyprus,  where they
       would  be  more  comfortable. They  also  transferred  a
       number of  their camps in  northern Syria to the Troodos
       mountains.

       Mossad  revealed that  the  Armenian National  Movement,
       which is known as the MNA, has opened liaison offices in
       Nicosia, Athens and  Tripoli in order to  meet the needs
       of the  camps. The offices are used to provide  material
       support for the  Armenian  camps. Meanwhile, the  leader
       of the  Popular Front for  the Liberation of  Palestine,
       George  Habash, is  reported  to  have ordered  his  men
       not  to   participate  in  the  operations  carried  out
       by  the  PKK &  ASALA, which  he  described  as "extreme
       racist,  extreme  nationalist  and   fascist."  Reliable
       sources have said that  Habash believed that  the recent
       operations carried  out by the PKK  militants  show that
       organisation  to  be a  band  of  irregulars  engaged in
       extreme  nationalist  operations.  They  added  that  he
       instructed  his militants  to sever their links with the
       PKK  and avoid clashing with it. It has been established
       that George Habash  expelled ASALA  militants  from  his
       camp  after ASALA's  connections  with  drug trafficking
       were exposed.

Source: Alan Cowell, 'U.S. & Greece in Dispute on Terror,' The New
        York Times, June 27, 1987, p. 4.

                    Special to The New York Times

ATHENS, June 26 - A dispute developed today between Athens and
Washington over United States intelligence reports saying that
Athens, for several months, conducted negotiations with the
terrorist known as Abu Nidal...

They said the contacts were verified in what were termed hard
intelligence reports.

Abu Nidal leads the Palestinian splinter group Al Fatah
Revolutionary Council, implicated in the 1985 airport
bombings at Rome and Vienna that contributed to the Reagan
Administration's decision to bomb Tripoli, Libya, last year.

In Washington, State Department officials said that when
Administration officials learned about the contacts, the
State Department drafted a strongly worded demarche. The
officials also expressed unhappiness with Greece's dealings
with ASALA, the Armenian Liberation Army, which has carried
out terrorist acts against Turks....

Serdar Argic


I took your advice and ordered a copy of the Washinton Report.  I
heartily recommend it to all pro-Israel types for the following
reasons:

1.  It is an excellent absorber of excrement.  I use it to line
    the bottom of my parakeet's  cage.  A negative side effect is
    that my bird now has a somewhat warped view of the mideast.

2.  It makes a great April Fool's joke, i.e., give it to someone
    who knows nothing about the middle east and then say "April
    Fools".

Anyway, I plan to call them up every month just to keep getting
those free sample magazines (you know how cheap we Jews are).

BTW, when you call them, tell 'em barf sent you.

Just Kidding,


Windows NT or WNT can also be derived by the next letter in the alphabet
of VMS - same as HAL and IBM. You might recall that the chief architect
of VMS is also chief designer of WNT.

Rajiev Gupta


	I HOPE THAT YOU ARE IN THE WAY OF THE NOBLE FEDERAL ENFORCERS and
are blown away accidently by the governments goons.

You would cheer the death to 25 childern?

This is the sort of person who served as a death camp guard.


I am in hte market for a new bike (been without for a few years).
The two main bikes I'm looking at seriously are
The Yamaha Virago 535 and the Honda Shadow VLX 583.
I am leaning towards the Yamaha for its shaft drive, the Honda is Chain.
Insurance in Fla. is more costly than I thought, so I am staying in this
power range. Thanks in advance for any opinions and or experiences


[...deleta...]

Heavy for a beginner bike it is; 415 pounds it isn't, except maybe in
some adman's dream.  With a full tank, it's in the area of 550 lbs,
depending on year etc.

The 1980 and '81 versions had a much better seat, IMO.

My regulator lasted over 100,000 miles, and didn't overcharge the battery.
The wiring connectors in the charging path did get toasty though,
tending to melt their insulation.  I suspect they were underspecified;
it didn't help that they were well removed from cool air.

Battery access on the earlier bikes doesn't require tank removal.
After you learn the drill, it's pretty straightforward.

[...]

Having bought replacement parts for several brands of motorcycles,
I'll offer a grain of salt to be taken with Dale's assessment.

[...]


Hi,

I would like to hear the net.wisdom and net.opinions on IDE Controllers.
I would liek to get a IDE controller card for my VLB DX2 66 Motherboard.
What are good options for this (preferably under $200). It MUST also work
under OS/2 and be compatible with Stacker (and other Disk Compression S/W).

Please advise .....

Divya
--
Divya


Hello,

I have a 386sx25 notebook with windows 3.1 running fine. WINWORD 2.0 and
QUATTRO-PRO for windows also work fine when no virtual memory is used.
Switching on the virtual memory option these programs (probably others too)
don't work, the system crashes. The same programs work well with arbitrary
virtual memory on two other desktop PC's. What am I doing wrong?

If you can help, please mail to me directly, if possible.

Thank you very much in advance.

Stefan


Excuse me but... have not all Macs got a CPU!!!


I will again *repeat* my statement: 1) I *do not* condone these
*indiscriminate* Israeli acts (nor have I *ever*, 2) If the villagers do not know who these "guerillas" are (which you stated earlier), how do you expect the
Israelis to know? It is **very** difficult to "identify" who they are (this
*is why* the "guerillas" prefer to lose themselves in the general population
by dressing the same, acting the same, etc.).
I agree; but, because Lebanon was either unwilling or unable to stop these
attacks from its territory should Israel simply sit quietly and accept its
situation? Israel asked the Lebanese government over and over to control
this "third party state" within Lebanese territory and the attacks kept
occuring. At **what point** does Israel (or ANY state) have the right to do
something ITSELF to stop such attacks? Never?
It is also the responsibility of *any* state to NOT ALLOW *any* outside
party to use its territory for attacks on a neighboring state. If 1) Angola
had the power, and 2) South Africa refused (or couldn't) stop anti-Angolan
guerillas based on SA soil from attacking Angola, and 3) South Africa
refused to have UN troops stationed on its territory between it and Angola,
would Angola be justified in entering SA? If not, are you saying that
Angola HAD to accept the situation, do NOTHING and absorb the attacks?
I refered above *at all times* to the Palestinian attacks on Israel from
Lebanese soil, NOT to Lebanese attacks on Israel.

One hopes that a Lebanese government will be strong enough to patrol its
border but there is NO reason to believe it will be any stronger. WHAT HAS
CHANGED is that the PLO was largely *driven out* of Lebanon (not by the
Lebanese, not by Syria) and THAT is by far the most important making it
EASIER to control future Palestinian attacks from Lebanese soil. That
**change** was brought about by Israeli action; the PLO would *never*
have been ejected by Lebanese, Arab state or UN actions.
I fully recognize that the Lebanese do NOT WANT to be "used" by EITHER side,
and have been (and continue to be). But the most fundamental issue is that
if a state cannot control its borders and make REAL efforts to do so, it
should expect others to do it for them. Hopefully that "other" will be
the UN but it is (as we see in its cowardice regarding Bosnia) weak.


	In Islam, there is no compulsion, just a tax on dhimini.  In
Judaism, non-Jews are allowed to do as they wish, and there is no
effort made to convert them.

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu


No doubt this is an old question, but I didn't find the answer in the
FAQs I could find, so - here goes:

I have a Sunview application that I want to convert to X (OpenLook,
Motiv, whatever). I remember hearing quite some time ago that there
are tools to accomplish this task.

	a) is that so?
	b) are they public domain?
	c) any good, i.e.
	d) advantages over reimplementing the interface myself?

Thanks,


Joe,

	your description sounds like one of the  gravity probe  spacecraft
ideas.


4 month old Sega Genesis, barely used, one controller, in original
box, with Sonics 1 and 2.  $130 gets the whole bundle shipped to you.

Turns out they're not as addictive when they're yours.  Anyway, mail me if
you're interested in this marvel of modern technology.


The Ottwawa Senators fired Mel Bridgman at 1:00 PM today.
Randy Sexton is gonna replace him.


It has actually come up (or it will in a week or two) in NZ.  I'll post the
outcome when the trial finishes (which could take months BTW).  Overall it
looks like you can't be forced to reveal a password, if anyone can provide
a convincing legal argument to the contrary (ie an actual court case) I'd
be most interested...

Peter.


This is exactly what I have heard before.  If you were to fade away and
nobody saw you what kind of evidence would they be able to get to catch you
(this is assuming that you either collected your brass or had a revolver)?

Guess it's time to take a trip to the library and look at the Illinois statutes
again :-)  Just for the record folks I'm just asking this because I'm curious.
I'm just trying to find out from people who have read more on stuff like this.


I am in the process of looking for a half decent aftermarket sport exhaust
for my 1981 BMW 320i. So far, I have found a Pacesetter exhaust for $219
and an Ansa exhaust for $190 (Canadian funds). I was wondering if anyone
could tell me anyhting about either of these exhausts or any other possible
exhausts that I may be interested in. My main priorities are a decent horse
power increase (5-30%) and a nice low note to go along with that added power.
I was also thinking of looking into both Remus and Leistritz exhausts.Has
anyone got anything to say about these? I am mainly looking for the muffler
only but if anyone can find a good deal on a whole kit I would be willing to
go after that. I also would like to know how much these would cost me in the
States.Please mail me back if you have any information.


Please note that there are some radiosity packages in my Resource Listing
(under the Subject 3: FTP list)

Greetings,
Nick.
--
Nick (Nikolaos) Fotis         National Technical Univ. of Athens, Greece
HOME: 16 Esperidon St.,       InterNet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr
      Halandri, GR - 152 32   UUCP:    mcsun!ariadne!theseas!nfotis
      Athens, GREECE          FAX: (+30 1) 77 84 578

USENET Editor of comp.graphics Resource Listing and soc.culture.greece FAQ
NTUA/UA ACM Student Chapter Chair - we're organizing a small conference
        in Comp. Graphics, call if you're interested to participate.


[more about the Messier-Samuelsson incident]
 I agree with Rick that Ulf's cross check wasn't illegal. It was the kind
 of check you see a dozen times during a game without being called. Slo-mos
 sometimes have a tendency to make things look worse than they really are.
 Besides, if Messier can't take the heat, he should stay out of the kitchen.

 Well Matt, Mattias Timmander hasn't been playing with the MoDo elite league
 team yet (just the MoDo junior team), so I predict he needs a few more years
 here before he can join the B's. I saw him play in the Swedish championship
 game for junior players this year, and he played very well, a physical game,
 but not the kind of rough stuff that Ulfie does (I suspect you would like to
 have a Ulf type-of-player on the B's team too? :)
 As for Mariusz Czerkawski, he has had a *great* season for Hammarby in
 division 1. He scored -if I remember correctly- 93 points this season,
 and then we have to keep in mind that a 50+ point season in Sweden is
 considered *very good* due to the limited number of games. Mariusz is
 Djurgarden property (he was just on loan to Hammarby), so he will play
 in Elitserien next season, unless the B's can get him of course.
 I would say that Mariusz has to be one of the most exciting player to
 watch in Swedish hockey this season.

 Staffan


Detroit is a very disciplined team.  There's a lot of Europeans
in Detroit which would make the game fast, so Toronto would have
to slow the game down, which means drawing penalties, as a last
resort anyway.  Toronto will be a good team as soon as they get
more good players.  Toronto is just an average team, Detroit isn't
Ballard screwed Toronto when he was owner.  Everyone knows that.
and it's going to take time for Toronto to become a real force.
I expect Gilmour to be burnt out next year.  He can't pull the
whole team forever.


Bill Gripp writes

ok, but didn't Jesus figure somewhere into their beliefs? Anyway, my
original question regarding christians and weaponry still stands.


The protocol/key-management description published so far is either
	incomplete or incorrect. It leaves me with no idea of how the system
	would actually _work_. I hope the CPSR FOIA request succeeds so that
	we get full details.

Wouldn't it be easier just to ask denning@cs.georgetown.edu? ;-)


If gamma ray bursters are extragalactic, would absorption from the
galaxy be expected?  How transparent is the galactic core to gamma
rays?

How much energy does a burster put out?  I know energy depends on
distance, which is unknown.  An answer of the form _X_ ergs per
megaparsec^2 is OK.


DROPLET VOL 1, No 11, Part 3

D R O P L E T
From The Vast Ocean Of The Miraculous Qur'an

Translations from the Arabic and Turkish Writings of
Bediuzzaman Said Nursi, The Risale-i Noor

VOL 1, No 11, Part 3
------------------------------------------------------------------
   		 NINETEENTH LETTER

		 MU'JIZAT-I AHMEDIYE RISALESI
A TREATISE ON THE MIRACLES OF MUHAMMED SAW, Part 3

(continued from Droplet Vol 1, No 11, Part 2)

   THIRD SIGN:  The miracles of Muhammad (SAW)
are extremely varied.  Because his messengership is
universal, he has been distinguished by  miracles that
relate to almost all species of creation.
    Just as the supreme aide of a renowned ruler, arriving
with many gifts in a city where various people live, will be
welcomed by a representative of each people who
acclaims him and bids him welcome in his own language
so, too, when the supreme messenger of the Monarch of
Pre- and  Post-Eternity  (Ezel and Ebed  Sultani) honored the
universe by coming as an envoy to the inhabitants of the
earth, and brought with him the light of truth and spiritual
gifts sent by the Creator of the universe and derived from
the realities of the whole universe, each species of
creation -from water, rocks, trees, animals and human
beings to the moon, sun and stars- welcomed him and
acclaimed his prophethood, each in its own language, and
each bearing one of his miracles.
    Now it would require a voluminous work to mention all
his miracles.  As the punctilious scholars have written
many volumes concerning the proofs of His prophethood,
here we will briefly point out only the general category
into which fall fhe miracles that are definite and accepted
as accurate reports.
    The evidences of the prophethood of Muhammad
(SAW) fall into two main categories:

    The first is called irhasat and includes the paranormal
events that happened at the time of his birth, or before his
declaration of prophethood.

    The second group pertains to all the remaining evidences
of the prophethood, and contains two subdivisions:

    1) Those wonders that were manifested after
his departure from this world in order to confirm his
prophethood, and
	2) Those that he exhibited during the era
of his prophethood.  The latter has also two parts:
	2.1) The evidences of his prophethood that became manifest
in his own personality, his inner and outer being, his moral
conduct and perfection, and
    2.2) The miracles that: related to substantial matters.
The last part again has two branches:
	2.2.1) Those concerning the Qur'an and spirituality, and
	2.2.2) Those relating to matter and creation.  This last
branch is again divided into two categories:
	2.2.2.1) The first involves the paranormal happenings
that occured during his mission either to break the
stubbornness of the unbelievers, or to augment the
faith of the belivers.  This category has twenty different
sorts, such as the splitting of the moon, the flowing of
water from the fingers, the satisfying of large numbers with
a little food, and the speaking of trees, rocks and animals
Each of these sons has also many instances, and thus
has, in meaning, the strength of confirmation by
consensus.
	2.2.2.2)  As for the second category, this
includes events lying in the future that occured as he had
predicted upon Allah (SWT)'s instructions.  Now starting
from the last category, we will summarize a list of them.(1)

(1) Unfonunately, I could not write as I had intended
without choice, I wrote as my head dictated, and I could
not completely conform to the order of this classification.


You must be _incredibly_ bored.  Have you considered reading the phone book?


I posted this to sci.psychology on April 3, and after seeing
your post here on panice disorder thought it would be
relevant.

-----

My research indicates that two schools of thought exist.
the literature promoting medication says it's the superior
treatment.  Not surprisingly, literature promoting cognitive
therapy also claims to be superior.

What are the facts?  Early in my research I didn't have a
bias towards either medication or cognitive therapy.  I
was interested in a treatment that worked.  After reading
journals published after 1986, the cognitive therapy camp
claims a higher success rate (approx 80%), a lower drop-out
rate, and no side effects associated with medication.

Lars-Goran Ost published an excellent article titled
"Applied Relaxation: Description of a coping technique and
a review of controlled studies."  This is from Behav. Res. Ther.,
vol. 25, no. 5, pp. 397-409, 1987.  The article provides
instructions on how to perform applied relaxation (AR).
Briefly, you start with two 15 minute sessions daily, and
progress in 8-12 weeks to performing 10-15 thirty second sessions
daily.

I'll snail mail this article to anyone interested (USA only please;
International please pay for postage).


These word processing utilities all include complete printed
manuals and registration cards. I need to get rid of some excess.
They're the latest versions. I've priced these programs at less
than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest
mail-order price around.

* GRAMMATIK 5 FOR WINDOWS, top-rated grammar checker, helps
you improve your writing by correcting grammar and usage
mistakes, now owned by WordPerfect, list $99, sale $45.

* GRAMMATIK 5 FOR DOS, top-rated grammar checker, helps you
improve your writing by correcting grammar and usage
mistakes, now owned by WordPerfect, list $99, sale $45.

* CORRECT GRAMMAR FOR WINDOWS 2.0, top-notch grammar
checker, from WordStar, list $119, sale $45.

* CORRECT GRAMMAR FOR DOS 4.0, top-notch grammar checker,
from WordStar, list $99, sale $40.

* CORRECT WRITING 1.0 FOR WINDOWS, online writing manual
from WordStar with tips about correct use of punctuation,
capitalization, compound words, numerals, bibliographies,
footnotes, and more, list $59, sale $25.

* RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S ELECTRONIC DICTIONARY & THESAURUS
FOR WINDOWS 1.0, unlike spell checkers provides online
definitions when you're not sure of a word's meaning, also
has larger thesaurus than most word processors for finding
just the right word, list $119, sale $55.

* RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S ELECTRONIC DICTIONARY & THESAURUS
FOR DOS 1.2, same functionality as Windows version, list
$119, sale $55.

* WORD FINDER PLUS FOR WINDOWS 1.0, huge online thesaurus
with more than one million synonyms, list $59, sale $25.

* RANDOM HOUSE ENCYCLOPEDIA FOR DOS 1.02, online encyclopedia
that you can use without needing a CD-ROM drive, easier to
use and less expensive than a book-based encyclopedia, takes
5.5 MB of hard disk space, list $119, sale $55.

* HEADLINER 1.5, DOS-based database of great advertising and
other headlines, proverbs, idioms, song titles, movie titles,
and so on, great for advertising copywriters, newspaper
editors, and, others trying to come up with catchy phrases,
list $195, sale $90.

* WRITER'S TOOLKIT FOR WINDOWS 2.0, amazing collection of
seven different word processing utilities in one package,
includes encyclopedia, great quotations, dictionary of
abbreviations, dictionary with definitions, thesaurus, usage
guide, and grammar checker, list $129, sale $65.

If you're interested in any of these programs, please phone me at
215-885-7446 (Philadelphia), and I'll save the package for you.


Concerning the proposed newsgroup split, I personally am not in favor of
   doing this.  I learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading
   this group, from code to hardware to algorithms.  I just think making 5
   different groups out of this is a wate, and will only result in a few posts
   a week per group.  I kind of like the convenience of having one big forum
   for discussing all aspects of graphics.  Anyone else feel this way?
   Just curious.

I disagree.  You could learn the same amount by reading all the
split groups, and it would make things easier for those of us
who are less omnivorous.  There is no "waste" in creating news
groups -- its just a bit of shuffling about.  I have no problem
with only a few posts per week per group - I spend too much time
on this as it is.


Yes some radar detectors are less detectable by radar detector
detectors. ;-)


I will sell it for $33 including shipping...


ONLY if you weight Americans equal to SAlvadorans.


how so? i think you're making assumptions here that might not
necessarily be true. -my- personal choice would be a semi-auto, but
revolvers are just as effective, if not more so.

relevancy, please? you sound shocked, but that hardly proves anything.

wait, doesn't Chicago have -serious- gun control? if so, why do the
police need all that firepower in the first place? (sarcasm alert)

all the patrol cars i've seen around here have shotguns clamped to
the dash board. IMHO, that's all the police need to outgun just about
anything.

jason


Oh?

What is wrong with *this* motto, now?  If you wouldn't approve of
even that one, I am beginning to think that you just have something
against mottos in general.  What do you think of "E plurbis unum?"


Too right it does!

The --VERY VERY FIRST-- thing you do is make sure that --ALL-- files on
the floppies that you can currently read in the drive, which aren't
already on your HD or another floppy (if you have -two- floppy drives)
get copied to your HD (and/or to a floppy in your other drive).

If you don't do this before fixing the alignment problem you have kissd
those files goodbye.  (Well, you can -try- to re-misalign the drive back
to read your floppies, but don't count on be able to do so!)

Generally, head alignment is something I'd only trust to a good repair
shop (though there are/have been DIY guides).


THe following listed tapes are priced to sell.  A friend of mine wants
to get rid of them, so let's just have some bids, why don't we?

All Are Tapes, BTW.

AC/DC 		Back in Black  		good condition
       		Razor's edge   		excellent
Poison 		Open up and... 		Excellent
       		Flesh & Blood  		Excellent
Guns & Roses    Appetite for Destr..    Fair
 		Use your Ill.  #1	good
		USe your Ill.  #2	good
Skid Row	Bside ourselves		Tape OK, Case cracked
		Slave to the grind	excellent
Jackyl		Jackyl			Excellent
Bon Jovi	Keep the Faith(single)  Excellent

THis is for her, not for me...


	And they're rather tasty.

	Per gallon (bushel) perhaps. Unfortunately they eat the same amount
every day no matter how much you ride them. And if you don't fuel them they
die. On an annual basis, I spend much less on bike stuff than Amy the Wonder
Wife does on horse stuff. She has two horses, I've got umm, lesseee, 11 bikes.
I ride constantly, she rides four or five times a week. Even if you count
insurance and the cost of the garage I built, I'm getting off cheaper than
she is. And having more fun (IMHO).

--
Go fast. Take chances.


ALL I CAN SAY IS

        G O    T I G E R S!!!!!!


My CorelDRAW 3.0.whatever write SCODL files directly. Look under File|Export
on the main menu.


I'm writing an application running under X (using Motif), and I need to do
some stuff when the application quits.  Now, when I shut down my X Windows
session, it doesn't seem to send a SIGTERM (or whatever) signal to my
application (I'm trapping various signals like that).  Therefore, I thought
I could use an X signal to check for my top level window being destroyed.

However I seem to get DestroyNotify events whenever I move windows.  Is
there any way for me to check that the window is actually being destroyed
(some field to check or some combination of events?).

Replies by e-mail please and I will summarise.

Thanks for any help,
                      Ian


For those of you with motorcycles of the liquid-cooled persuasion,
what brand of coolant do you use and why?  I am looking for aluminum-safe
coolant, preferably phosphate-free, and preferably cheaper than $13/gallon.
(Can you believe it:  the Kaw dealer wants $4.95 a QUART for the Official
Blessed Holy Kawasaki Coolant!!!  No way I'm paying that usury...)

Thanks,


Gee, what do I do?  My LDL is only 50-60. (and my HDL is only 23-25)
I must be risking something, but Is it the same risk as those with
very high LDL?

What about exercise and a low-fat diet?  What are the long-term
effects of this drug?


The amount of energy being spent on ONE LOUSY SYLLOGISM says volumes for the
true position of reason in this group.


If I'm not mistaken, San Jose had more wins than Ottawa. First tiebreaker in
the NHL is always most wins.


Okay, I'll bite. I should probably leave this alone, but what the heck...

But didn't he credit the actual flag design to a party member - some dentist or
other? I believe he gives such credit in Mein Kampf.

Well, I'm no expert, but all of the histories of Nazi Germany assert this. They
make reference to several scandals that occurred long before "the night of the
long knives". The impression that I got was that homosexuality in portions of
the SA was common knowledge. Also, a book (by a homosexual author whose name
escapes me at the moment) called "Homosexuals in History" asserts that Roehm
and Heines were homosexuals, as well as others in Roehm's SA circle.

Well, you're the one who is in Germany. If you don't believe the history books,
look up the primary sources yourself. Those of us outside of Germany do not
have access to these. You do. It seems to me that there were plenty of
documented instances - several scandals, the fact that on the "knight of the
long knives" several SA members (including Heines) were found sleeping
together, etc. Also I believe some people were complaining about the SA's
homosexual activities (seducing young boys, etc). The histories that I've
read make a very convincing case. None of this sounds like urban legend to me.

I know next to nothing about Irving and nothing about Funk. What precisely do
you know, that would contradict all of the other history books that I have
read concerning the existence of homosexual Nazis? Are you trying to say that
all historians are taking part in an anti-homosexual smear? What about
homosexual writers who agree with the official history? Don't you think they
would have found out the truth by now if Roehm and Heines were not homosexuals?
I would think they would want to disassociate homosexuality from Nazism. No one
should use any connection between the two to bash homosexuals in any case.

If you are going to challenge *all* historians on this point (not just Irving),
then the burden of proof is on you. Track down the references. Find out where
the stories originate from. Again, you are the one in Germany, close to
archival material - most people on the net are not.

Eh? What is your agenda here? To prove that the Nazis were heterosexuals, so
that you can bash heterosexuals? Does it bother you that some of the Nazis
might have been homosexuals? Does this make all homosexuals bad if this is
true? Of course not. And what about bisexuals? Are they half-Nazis?

I don't know why it would be so difficult to believe that some Nazis were
homosexuals. The German officer corps before WW1, for instance, was notorious
for its homosexuality. There were numerous scandals which rocked the German
govt. during the late 19th and early 20th century. Many of the Kaiser's friends
were prosecuted - the Kaiser was no homosexual, but the Germany army had a long
tradition of tolerating homosexuality, going far back into Prussian history -
back to Frederick the Great at least, who was himself a homosexual. Roehm was a
product of this Prussian officer tradition, and the old German army (like the
English public school system), being a well known center of homosexuality,
would have been quite willing to overlook Roehm's homosexuality.

In addition, some Nazis complained of homosexuality in the Hitler Youth. The
Hitler Youth swallowed up all pre-Nazi youth groups, and some of the various
pre-war Vandervogel, Bund, and Volkish youth groups were known to promote
homoerotic ideals and friendship, and in many cases, homosexuality itself. So
it seems to me not unlikely that there were plenty of homosexual Nazis,
regardless of the official Nazi dogmas concerning the "evils" of homosexuality.
Why should this suprise anyone? Homosexuality has always existed, in all
societies - it would be most unusual if the Nazis were an exception.

No, I don't have any sources for you, as I think the only kind of proof you
will accept would be citations from archival material, and I do not have access
to these. Nor do I intend to reread every book on the Nazis and on modern
homosexuality that I have ever read - I don't have the time. Nothing is
stopping you, however, from chasing down those sources. Until you prove
otherwise, though, I will stick with the established histories.


Dennis Deconcini, 1982

...In these and similar areas, the
Bureau has violated not only the dictates of common sense, but of 5
U.S.C. Sec 552, which was intended to prevent "secret lawmaking" by
administrative bodies.
   These practices, amply documented in hearings before this Sub-
committee, leave little doubt that the Bureau has disregarded
rights guaranteed by the constitution and laws of the United
States.
   It has trampled upon the second amendment by chilling exercise
of the right to keep and bear arms by law-abiding citizens.
   It has offended the fourth amendment by unreasonably search-
ing and seizing private property.
   It has ignored the Fifth Amendment by taking private property
without just compensation and by entrapping honest citizens with-
out regard for their right to due process of law.
   The rebuttal presented to the Subcommittee by the Bureau was
utterly unconvincing. Richard Davis, speaking on behalf of the
Treasury Department, asserted vaguely that the Bureau's priorities
were aimed at prosecuting willful violators, particularly felons ille-
gally in possession, and at confiscating only guns actually likely to
be used in crime. He also asserted that the Bureau has recently
made great strides toward achieving these priorities. No documen-
tation was offered for either of these assertions. In hearings before
BATF's Appropriations Subcommittee, however, expert evidence
was submitted establishing that approximately 75 percent of BATF
gun prosecutions were aimed at ordinary citizens who had neither
criminal intent nor knowledge, but were enticed by agents into
unknowning technical violations.

( Exerpt from: 97th Congress; 2d Session   COMMITTEE PRINT
     T H E   R I G H T   T O   K E E P   A N D   B E A R   A R M S
                                REPORT
                                of the
                   SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION
                                of the
                      COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
                         UNITED STATES SENATE
                        NINETY-SEVENTH CONGRESS
                            SECOND SESSION
                             FEBRUARY, 1982
        Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
88-618 O
                        WASHINGTON : 1982

Letter to Constituent: April 1993

Thank you for contacting me regarding the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms (ATF), which is the Federal law enforcement agency with
jurisdiction over firearms violations and regulations.

It has been my experience as chairman of the Appropriations
Subcommittee on Treasury, Postal Service and General Government which
funds ATF, that ATF is one of the most competent and highly
professional law enforcement agencies in the Federal government.
The agents of ATF have proven their value again and again in
successful, legal operations to curb the unlawful possession and use
of firearms, especially in the area of  drug-related crimes.  It
enforces the Armed Career Criminal Act which calls for mandatory
minimum sentences for repeat felons using firearms to carry out  an
illegal activity.  The Bureau has made itself a key component in
preventing gang related violence, also, both by educating at-risk
youth to the dangers of gang membership as well a s by depriving known
gangs from access to weapons.

The Waco, Texas case involved the execution of search warrants by ATF
on the Branch Davidians for illegal firearms and explosives possession
(automatics, semi-automatics, and machine-guns, in addition to bombs
and other explosives.)  In virtually every gun case, ATF is asked to
trace weapons through its' National Firearms Tracing Center, where
they keep all dealer and Federal firearms license information.  ATF
is the Federal governments' firearms expert and routinely works with
state and local police to execute warrants.  ATF, working with state
and local law enforcement in Texas and the U.S. Attorneys' office
felt it was necessary to execute these warrants in order to legally
establish that a crime had been committed and conclude a long and
thorough investigation of illegal gun and explosives held by members
of the Branch Davidians.  In addition, ATF carefully selected a
Sunday morning, knowing from their source, inside, that the men would
be separated from the women and children and not in the area where
it was known that the illegal weapons were stored.

As you may be aware by now, Vernon Howell a.k.a. David Koresh
spiritual leader of the Branch Davidians was tipped of the impending
execution of the search warrants.  Unfortunately, ATF lost the
element of surprise and the cult was able to arm themselves  and
prepare for ATFs' entry into the compound.  Once a hostage situation
presented itself, the ATF asked the FBI to become involved since the
FBI is skilled in hostage negotiations.  In addition, and military
tanks were brought in due to the serious nature of the situation and
firepower of the Branch Davidians.

Based on what I have learned about ATF's role in the Branch Davidian
raid, I believe the agency acted responsibly.  I am, however, deeply
saddened by the loss of lives of the 4 law enforcement agents who
attempted to enter the compound and the civilian members of the
cult.  I fully expect the Department of  Treasury to conduct a
thorough evaluation with representatives from law enforcement outside
the Department to be headed by the Assistant Secretary for
Enforcement.  In addition, ATF will conduct its' own review of the
Waco operation.  I look forward to reviewing the findings of the
evaluators and hope this situation in Waco will be brought to a quick
and peaceful conclusion.

Sincerely,

Dennis DeConcini
Chairman
Subcommittee on Treasury,
Postal Service and
General Government

April 7, 1993


[STUFF DELETED]

        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A friend who owns a company that builds clones shared with me the fact that
the PCI chipset is NOT expensive -- how about $12?  Many money-hungry-clone
makers, no doubt, will attempt to price the boards high only because it's
new technology.

Lance Hartmann (lance%hartmann.austin.ibm.com@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com)
               Yes, that IS a '%' (percent sign) in my network address.


		   [Patrick's example of anti-competitive regulations for
            auto dealers deleted.]

Let me try to drag this discussion back to the original issues.  As
I've noted before, I'm not necessarily disputing the benefits of
eliminating anti-competitive legislation with regard to auto dealers,
barbers, etc.  One need not, however, swallow the entire libertarian
agenda to accomplish this end.  Just because one grants the benefits of
allowing anyone who wishes to cut hair to sell his/her services without
regulation does not mean that the same unregulated barbers should be
free to bleed people as a medical service without government intervention.
(As some/many libertarians would argue.)

On a case by case basis, the cost/benefit ratio of government regulation
is obviously worthwhile.  The libertarian agenda, however, does not call
for this assessment.  It assumes that the costs of regulation (of any
kind) always outweigh its benefits.  This approach avoids all sorts of
difficult analysis, but it strikes many of the rest of us as dogmatic,
to say the least.

I have no objection to an analysis of medical care, education,
national defense or local police that suggests a "free market" can provide
a more effective, efficient means of accomplishing social objectives
than is provided through "statist" approaches.   With some notable
exceptions, however, I do not see such nitty-gritty, worthwhile
analysis being carried out by self-professed libertarians.

jsh


Vell...Let's see...vas you muzzah in der passenger seat?  Or vas you muzzah in
der leefing room, vit you fazah?


[reply to Daniel.Prince@f129.n102.z1.calcom.socal.com (Daniel Prince]

Yes.

It seems to work equally well for CFS, another hint that these may be
different facets of the same underlying process.

Yes.  The benefit is usually evident within a few days of starting it.
Most of the patients for whom it has worked well continued low-dose
amitriptyline, daily aerobic excersise, and a regular sleep schedule
(current standard therapy).  Because of the cost (usually > $150/mo.,
depending on dose) and potential for significant side effects like
corneal injury and birth defects, I currently reserve it for those who
fail conventional treatment.  It is important that the person
prescribing it have some experience with it and follow the patient
closely.

As far as I know, I am the only person looking at it currently.  I
should get off my duff and finish writing up some case reports.  I'm not
an academic physician, so I don't feel the pressure to publish or perish
and I don't have the time during the work day for such things.


  While Atlanta has the undisputed best starting rotation, I feel that their
relief staff may be suspect.  They don't have a real closer -- although
Mike Stanton (4 saves) has been used in that role.  Didn't Stanton start off
great last year and then falter?  Despite this, your point is well taken.
Atlanta doesn't seem to have the same personality as a NY team, thus is
unlikely to self-destruct.  For Houston to take 'em, Atlanta needs to
suffer some injuries, particularly to their starting rotation.

  From what I understand, Boever and Murphy were considered expendable by the
club.  Houston felt that their positions could be filled by a number of
players..  Art  Doug Jones is the key to Houston's success.  He must have
another great year for Houston to challenge in the NL West.

lousey spring.

      Right!  A strong rotation will take the pressure off of the troubling
      bullpen.

      The unsuspected strength of the lower part of the order has saved the
      club so far.  Biggio and Finley just aren't doing their job of getting
      on base.  Instead of filling his role as an RBI man, Bagwell has had to
      assume Biggio and Finley's job.  Biggio concerns me, since he usually
      starts the season very strong.

                                * * * * * *

     On a side note, are you at all concerned with the rumors concerning
next year's uniform?  There is talk that their road uniform will be
(blech..) traditional grey, with the word "HOUSTON" written across the
chest.  If I'm not mistaken, their home uniforms may totally eliminate
the color orange (shiver..).  McLane's favorite color is red, so...
     I'm really upset.. the current unforms are dull and the new ones sound
horrible.  I'd like to see the uniform of the mid-1980s return.  They
may not have been pretty, but Houston had established a long precident of
wearing the ugliest uniforms in baseball -- and I liked it.

Astros fan since the days of Ryan, Scott, Smith, Cruz, Davis, Bass, Hatcher...


You might visit some congregations of Christians, who happen to be homosexuals,
that are spirit-filled believers, not MCC'rs; before you go lumping us all
together with Troy Perry.

The Lord IS working in our community (the homosexual community, that is).  He's
not asking us to change our sexual nature, but He is calling us to practice
the morality that He established from the beginning.

Isn't Satan having a hayday pitting Christian against Christian over any issue
he can, especially homosexuality.  Let's reach the homosexuals for Christ.
Let's not try to change them, just need to bring them to Christ.  If He
doesn't want them to be gay, He can change that.  If they are living a moral
life, committed to someone of the same sex, and God is moving in their lives,
who are we to tell them they have to change?

That's my two cent.


HI,

I was just wondering if anyone knew when Erickson
and Keith Miller are expected to come back and what
exactly ails them.

--

Sincerely,


True enough. I put it on the ground if it's free of spooge, or directly
on my head otherwise.

Not exactly. The helmet has a lot less energy if your head isn't in it, and
there's no lump inside to compress the liner against the shell. Is a drop
off the seat enough to crack the shell? I doubt it, but you can always
send it to be inspected.


Non-smoking roommate needed
          to sublet
   1BR in 2BR carpeted apt.
         in Evanston, IL
  near the Dempster el stop
     parking is available

Rent is $322.50/mo. + 1/2 utils.

  avail. May 1 - beg./end Aug.
 (entire apt. available Sept. 1)

Roommate is 26 years-old, vegetarian,
  non-smoking female who works at
         Northwestern

    No neat freaks please!


#In article <93109.231733ISSCCK@BYUVM.BITNET> "Casper C. Knies" <ISSCCK@BYUVM#.B
#>As a Latter-day Saint, I found John's statement *not at all* ludicrous...
#>
#>Please allow me to explain myself.  In 1838, the governor of Missouri,
#>governor Boggs, issued his so-called "Mormon extermination order."  The
#>only crime ("illegal activity") the Latter-day Saints had committed, was
#>their religious affiliation, their anti-slave stance (Missouri still
#>allowed slave practices), and their growing numbers/influence in Missouri.
#>
#>I guess the Mormons "got what they deserved," because they refused to bow
#>to the will of (corrupt and evil) secular authorities. This "disobedience"
#>brought upon them persecution, murder, and finally forced expulsion from
#>their lands and settlements...
#
#It is significant to remember that these secular positions were held by
#"average" people, and that at the time, almost all Americans were pretty
#homogeonously Christian. It was largely the mainstream Christian's disgust
#at such practices as polygamy which resulted in their irrational hatred.

True, but that is exactly the "problem": the Mormon extermination order
was issued not just by a Christian, it was ALLOWED under the Constitution
of the United States, which was instituted precisely to prevent incidents
like this "order" from occurring in the first place...  As I indicated in
an earlier posting, your "irrational hatred" is clearly evidenced by
individuals like Robert Weiss (who could have been Gov. Boggs' Lieutenant;
he would have fitted right in, drewling et al), and seems a modern-day
occurrence, based on results (slander, persecution, misrepresentation,
lies, denying Mormons representation in their own user group, etc. etc.

In intent and purpose, what really has changed?

#The situation is not entirely different today.  Many irrational feelings
#and beliefs are justified through religion.  I don't think most of them
#are started because of religion, but religion certainly helps justify and
#perpetuate prejudices and practices by providing a neat justification
#which discourages critical thought.

True, as evidenced by numerous examples, as I am sure you're aware.

#>In any regard, Mormon history alone indicates that secular authorities (and
#>I don't even discuss how Uthan's were suckered into allowing part of their
#>lands in becoming nerve-gas and atomic bomb testing grounds...) is far from
#>being trusted or righteous.  Have things really changed for the better?  I
#>may be a born cynic, but I have NO reason whatsoever that such has been the
#>case. In the early 1980s, I believe, the late President Kimball (lds church
#>leader) strongly protested federal attempts to locate the MX-"Peace Keeper"
#>missile maze from being built in Utah (yet another "inspired" decision from
#secular authorities).  Fortunately, his opposition was influential enough
#for the feds to back off.
#
#Do you mean that the "secular authorities" are some continuous group of
#people with the common and uninterrupted goal of harrassing/eradicating the
#Mormons?  Do you honestly believe that the main reason for using Utah for
#nuclear testing etc.. was to "get them thar Mormons"?  And what about the
#majority of Uthan's who aren't Mormons?  You seem to be searching for enemy
 ^^^^^^^^
(Correction: the majority of Utahn's ARE Mormon (60-70% I believe, up to a
 100% in many cities and settlements throughout the Western states.)

#conspiracies.  It is paranoid to believe that everything that affects you
#badly must have been done primarily for that purpose.

What I mean is that secular authorities are to be watched, as we believe
that Satan has been given some power and dominion over the earth to divert
truth, judgment, and justice.  In addition, we believe that the adversary
has power to influence the unjust and idolatrous (greed for money would be
a good example) in order to bring about persecution, war, oppression, and
evil combinations.  As an intelligent being, don't you suppose that the
destroyer would yield his influence foremost on those with political power?

As far as Utah is concerned, what I pointed out were some horrible examples
of environmental nightmares imposed upon by secular authorities, which have
brought death, disease, (i.e. the "downwinders") and environmental contami-
nation.  I am hardly "paranoid," I am just not "expecting" too much from a
secular government that may not share our values and faith, and which indeed
(as Gov. Boggs et al.) may be out to harm and destroy us.  As a matter of
fact, prophecies in my church indicate that in future years, (global)
persecution against Mormons will so increase in intensity and scope, that
(paraphrasing) "all those who wish to escape persecution and murder must
flee to Zion."  Zion (the "pure in heart") will be re-established in those
days, and it AIN'T our current secular authorities who will rule over it...

#>...  David Koresh did NOT pose a great
#>threat to the federal authorities or the security of this nation, and with
#>John, I too wonder who or what's next...
#
#I personally feel that we should try to stop anyone who is a threat to the
#life of even one person.  Sure, he did not pose a threat to the security of
#this nation.  But he did pose a threat to the lives of his followers.  That
#much is definite.

Hmmm.  "definite" by whom?  --Until such has been established beyond reason-
able doubt, this alleged "threat" may have been less than the "threat"
imposed upon him and his followers by the BATF and FBI...

#>Who killed who?  What constitutional right did the ATF officers have to
#>invade upon private land and to force themselves into the compound?
#>What REALLY caused the "murder" of the little children?  Could it be that
#>the ATF/FBI presence has any bearing upon the events?  How would you
#>interpret the Mt. Masada events?  --Blame the Jews?  (What the heck did
#>the Romans do there anyway?  What business did the ATF/FBI has in Waco,
#>Texas???)  The Branch Davidians NEVER posed any threat to society.
#
#This is like asking who REALLY caused the deaths of the Israeli Olympic
#team in 1976?  In that case, the police botched the job as well.  But to
#lay a heavier burden on them than the terrorists would be a terrible
#mistake.  I think the same sort of reasoning applies in this case.
#Certainly, if David Koresh chose any peaceful option, the ATF and FBI
#would have complied.  The responsibility is more his than the authorities.

Come now, at issue is in how much the authorities escalated an otherwise
peaceful stand-off: "let's get it over with, and "force" David Koresh to
come out???"  --By gassing them???  Were they naive, or what?  They played
right into the hands of an apocalyptic-thinking individual (he had prepared
his people for this eventuality for years), and not *one* firetruck or plan
was in place to deal with this scenario???  I feel that the authorities
had "some" responsibility to protect their own citizens, even if they were
religious zealots, and guilty of ... not paying a $200 gun license???
(Has the BATF become an extension of the local tax-collectors?)

#>David Koresh, no doubt, will be described as the "evil" guy (by the
#>executioners), while the actions of all those "valiant and brave" officers
#
#Characterizing the ATF/FBI as executioners is inaccurate and unfair.  In
#order to be an executioner, the least one must have done is have the intent
#to kill.

Que?? --Intrusion into private property with semi's, loaded with life
ammunition, isn't that implicit "intent (or at least "prepared") to kill"?
I ask you, would the BATF warrant stand up in a civil court of justice?
I do not mind if criminals (such as dangerous drug lords) are brought to
justice, but escalating events to the point of allowing to, if not compli-
city with, the destruction of a people?

#--
#*Isaac Kuo (isaackuo@math.berkeley.edu)                   *        _____
#*"How lucky you English are to find the toilet so amusing.* ______//_o_\\__
#* For us, it is a mundane and functional item.  For you,  *(==(/___________
#* the basis of an entire culture!" Manfred von Richtofen  * \==\/         \


Unless I'm imaging things, (always a possibility =) 1992 QB1, the Kuiper Belt
object discovered last year, is known as Smiley.


The Royals are darkness.  They are the void of our time.
When they play, shame descends upon the land like a cold front
from Canada.   They are a humiliation to all who have lived and
all who shall ever live.   They are utterly and completely
doomed.

Other than that, I guess they're OK.

--


I  have one of the original Powerbook 170's (with 4Mb of Ram) and find
that 4Mb is a drag when trying to do my work.  So, what is the best way
to get the maximum RAM for this unit, and what's it going to cost me?
I'm hoping I can get the latest and best info from real users by posting
to this group.


I searched the U Mich archives fairly thoroughly for 3D graphics packages,
I always thought it to be a mirror of sumex-aim.stanford.edu... I was wrong.
I'll look into GrafSys... it does sound interesting!

Thanks Cheinan.


Unworthy of comment.

Nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty.
That is undeniable truth.  My heart bleeds just as much as yours for
the children who were never released given 51 days of ample opportunities
to do so.  My heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious devotion
to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up
and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning.

I do not think this.  However, if they did set the fire (which started in
more than one place and spread very quickly), then they got what they
wanted and put into motion themselves.

I see the BATF is going to be investigated by the Justice Dept. and likely
by Arlen Spectre and congress.  This is good.  They have bungled the affair
from the start.


Now we have strong evidence of where the CPR really stands.
Unbelievable and disgusting.  It only proves that we must
never forget...

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not so unconventional.  Eugenic solutions to the Jewish Problem
have been suggested by Northern Europeans in the past.

  Eugenics: a science that deals with the improvement (as by
  control of human mating) of hereditory qualities of race
  or breed.  -- Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary.

This is nothing more than Feisal Husseini's statement that the
Zionist entity must be disolved by forcing it to "engage" the
surrounding "normal" Arab society.

"a strong mixed stock", "integration of Israeli society into
the Middle East in a graceful manner," these are the phrases
of Nazi racial engineering pure and simple.  As if Israeli
society has no right to exist per se!

"the continued existance of a specific Jewish People overrides
any other consideration, be it human love, peace of human
rights."  Disolve the Jewish People and protect human values
such as love and peace; yes ve have heard this before Her Himmler.
Notice how the source of the problem seems to be accruing to
the Jews in this analysis.  Ya, Der Spiegal ist a gut sourcen...

Nice attempt to mix in a slam against U.S. aid to Israel.

Critical comment: you can take the Nazi flag and Holocaust photos
off of your bedroom wall, Elias; you'll never succeed.

-- Chris Metcalfe

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


What does "DC" stand for?  Couldn't be an antichiropractic posting
from a chiropractor, could it?  My curiosity is piqued.

Prostate CA is an especially troublesome entity for chiropractors.
It so typically causes bone pain due to spinal metastases that it
gets manipulated frequently.  Manipulating a cancer riddled bone
is highly dangerous, since it can then fracture.  I've seen at
least three cases where this happened with resulting neurologic
damage, including paraplegia.  This is one instance where knowing
how to read x-rays can really help a chiropractor stay out of trouble.
DO chiropractors know what bony mets from prostate look like?

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon."


Are you people sure his posts are being forwarded to his system operator???
Who is forwarding them???

Is there a similar file being kept on Mr. Omran???

Salam,

John Absood


                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I thought it was:  "There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those who
think there are two kinds of people and those who don't."

And then there's:  "There are three kinds of people in the world.  Those who
like math and those who don't."

Obmoto:  Michigan weather forecast for Saturday:  high in the low 40s,
chance of snow flurries, showers possible.  Enjoy the weather where you
are.  Have a ride on me.


103D CONGRESS
1ST SESSION

                                  H. R. 1276

To establish the right to obtain firearms for security, and to use firearms
    in defense of self, family, or home, and to provide for the enforcement
    of such right.

                           =======================

                       IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                               March 10, 1993

Mr. BARTLETT introduced the following bill; which was referred to the
    Committee on the Judiciary

                           =======================

                                    A BILL

To establish the right to obtain firearms for security, and
    to use firearms in defense of self, family, or home, and
    to provide for the enforcement of such right.

        Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representa-
    tives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

    SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

        This Act may be cited as the "Citizens' Self-Defense
    Act of 1993".

    SEC. 2. RIGHT TO OBTAIN FIREARMS FOR SECURITY, AND
        TO USE FIREARMS IN DEFENSE OF SELF,
        FAMILY, OR HOME; ENFORCEMENT.

        (a) ESTABLISHMENT OF RIGHT. -- A person not pro-
    hibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm shall have
    the right to obtain firearms for security, and to use fire-
    arms in defense of self, family, or home.

        (b) FIREARM DEFINED. -- As used in subsection (a),
    the term "firearm" means a --

            (1) shotgun (as defined in section 921(a)(5) of
        title 18, United States Code);

            (2) rifle (as defined in section 921(a)(7) of such
        title); or

            (3) handgun (as defined in section 10 of Public
        law 99-408).

        (c) ENFORCEMENT OF RIGHT. --

            (1) IN GENERAL. -- A person whose right under
        subsection (a) is violated in any manner may bring
        an action in any United States district court against
        the United States, any State, or any person for
        damages, injunctive relief, and such other relief as
        the court deems appropriate.

            (2) AUTHORITY TO AWARD A REASONABLE AT-
        TORNEY'S FEE. -- In an action brought under para-
        graph (1), the court, in its discretion, may allow the
        prevailing party, other than a State, a reasonable
        attorney's fee as part of the costs.

        (d) STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS. -- An action may not
    be brought under subsection (c)(1) after the 5-year period
    that begins with the date the violation described therein
    is discovered.

------------------------ (end of HR 1276) ------------------------

Well, this sounds good to me.  The key is Section (2)(c)(2), which
will effectively open up the Federal court system to all the folks
who can't afford to adopt an Attorney with whom to fight city hall.
All of you who've been saying "hey, isn't that illegal?" could just
go hire your own Attorneys on a pay-if-you-win ("contingency fee")
basis, and sue the bums ...   :-)

What you can do now:

(1)  Write your Representative, and ask them to co-sponsor HR 1276.

(2)  Write Representative Roscoe Bartlett, the sponsor --

        Representative Roscoe Bartlett
        312 Cannon House Office Building
        Washington, D.C. 20515

     -- to tell him who your own Representative is, and that you've
     asked them to join him as a co-sponsor of HR 1276.

(3)  Contact Gun Owners of America --

          Gun Owners of America
          8001 Forbes Place
          Springfield, Virginia 22151

     -- which has committed to lobby on behalf of HR 1276.

(4)  For those of us with a RealJob (TM), find out how to reach
     Representative Bartlett's campaign fund (I'm working on it)
     and toss in a few bucks.  You can bet your bippy that he's
     going to be one of the HCI "targets" in the next election,
     which isn't that far away (1994).


How about contaminants on the corn, e.g. aflatoxin???


Did I claim that there was an absolute morality, or just an objective one?


:
: Once again we are waiting. I have been thinking that it would be good
: to get to as large a group as possible to see if anyone has any
: experience with this kind of thing.  I know that members of the medical
: community are sometimes loathe to admit the importance that diet and
: foods play in our general health and well-being.  Anyway, as you can
: guess, I am worried sick about this, and would appreciate any ideas
: anyone out there has.  Sorry to be so wordy but I wanted to really get
: across what is going on here.
:
:
I don't know anything specifically, but I have one further anecdote. A
colleague of mine had a child with a serious congenital disease, tuberous
sclerosis. Along with mental retardation comes a serious seizure disorder.
The parents noticed that one thing that would precipitate a seizure was
a meal with corn in it. I have always wondered about the connection, and
further about other dietary ingredients that might precipitate seizures.
Other experiences would be interesting to hear about from netters.