* Attention voters:
*
* I had a problem with my mailbox on the first day of voting.
* Please check the Vote Acknowlegement (ACK) at the end of this CFV.
* If your name/address is not there, please send your vote again.
* (Actually, check even if you voted after the first day)

Introduction:

	This is the third (and final) Call For Votes (CFV) for the creation
	of four OS/2 newsgroups and the renaming of one:
	(a)  create comp.os.os2.programmer.porting     (unmoderated)
	(b)  renaming of comp.os.os2.programmer to
	     comp.os.os2.programmer.misc               (unmoderated)
	(c)  comp.os.os2.setup                         (unmoderated)
	(d)  comp.os.os2.multimedia                    (unmoderated)
	(e)  comp.os.os2.bugs                          (unmoderated)

	This is the second attempt at creating comp.os.os2.programmer.porting
	and comp.os.os2.setup, and renaming comp.os.os2.programmer to
	comp.os.os2.programmer.misc.  The first attempt failed in the summer
	of 1992 (the voting deadline was August 31, 1992).  The voting rules
	state that another attempt for creating newsgroups can be started
	after a six month waiting period (in this case, it is March 1, 1993).
	This is the first attempt at creating comp.os.os2.multimedia and
	comp.os.os2.bugs.

	This document contains:
	*  the background showing the need for these proposals
	*  the proposed charters for these proposals
	*  voting instructions
	*  a voting ballot
	*  some example ballots
	*  the voting rules
	*  the voting schedule
	*  the Mass Acknowledgement

Background:

	The creation of two, free, 32-bit compilers for OS/2 2.x (gcc/2
	and emx/gcc; read comp.os.os2.programmer for details) has spurred
	a continuing deluge of software ported from UNIX platforms, such
	as emacs, less, awk, grep, sed, xscheme, ispell, flex, yacc, and
	much more.  Borland has released its C/C++ compiler for OS/2 2.x,
	allowing for easier porting of DOS and Windows software.

	Much of the PC hardware and drivers were written for DOS, and
	later, Windows.  As more people are discovering OS/2 2.x, the
	number of people asking questions about OS/2's compatibility
	with their hardware increases, as does the questions on the
	availability of drivers for their hardware, installation
	procedures, etc.

	Multimedia is becoming popular.  OS/2 2.0 supports Windows
	Multimedia Extensions using Win-OS/2 3.0.  Furthermore, IBM is
	including direct multimedia support in OS/2 starting with version
	2.1 (in addition to using Win-OS/2 3.1).

	Any non-trivial software will have bugs -- OS/2 is not exempt,
	especially since IBM is constantly adding new features to OS/2.
	So far, IBM has issued system patches and corrective service disks
	(e.g.  the Service Pak) for free (free from BBSs and ftp sites, or
	for free plus a small media charge for diskettes -- read
	comp.os.os2.misc for details).

Proposed Charters:

	(a)  create comp.os.os2.programmer.porting (unmoderated)

		It will provide a forum for developers of ported software so
		as to coordinate efforts, avoid duplication of effort, and
		spur additional development.  The group will also cover
		topics such as porting from other platforms (such as DOS,
		Windows, UNIX, etc), toolkits which aid in program
		portability (including porting tools such as Mirrors), and
		so forth.

	(b)  rename: comp.os.os2.programmer.misc (unmoderated)

		To keep the structure of the OS/2 newsgroup heirarchy
		orthogonal, comp.os.os2.programmer should be renamed to
		comp.os.os2.programmer.misc.

		comp.os.os2.programmer.misc will still be the newsgroup
		for OS/2 programmers to discuss programming issues and
		technical aspects of OS/2 in an unmoderated setting.

	(c)  create comp.os.os2.setup (unmoderated)

		It will be devoted to OS/2 system setup topics, including the
		availability of device drivers, compatibility information,
		installation procedures, system requirements, and overall
		performance optimization.

	(d)  create comp.os.os2.multimedia (unmoderated)

		It will provide a forum for discussion of multi-media issues.

	(e)  create comp.os.os2.bugs (unmoderated)

		It will provide a forum for OS/2 system bug reports, bug
		diagnosis and work arounds, the availability of system
		patches and corrective service disks, and so forth.

		[Note that discussion of bugs in applications belong in other
		newsgroups, and discussion of bugs in OS/2 betas belong in
		comp.os.os2.beta]

How to Vote:

	To cast your vote, fill out the ballot below and e-mail it to me.
	Many newsreaders will allow e-mail to be sent by replying to this
	post.  Be sure to send only the ballot, and edit out the rest of
	this post.

	1)  Type in your vote for each proposal:

	    If you favor the charter as proposed, put a "yes" after its name.
	    If you oppose the charter as proposed, put a "no" after its name.
	    To abstain, leave a blank after its name.

	2)  Type in your last name (i.e. your family name), a comma, and
	    your first name (i.e. your personal name).

	3)  Cut out the ballot,  Please do not delete any lines of the
	    ballot.

	4)  E-mail your ballot to mlevis@lonestar.utsa.edu before 11:59:59 pm
	    (Central Time), April 24, 1993.

Ballot:

----------------cut here----------------cut here----------------cut here----

        (a) comp.os.os2.programmer.porting:
        (b)    comp.os.os2.programmer.misc:
        (c)              comp.os.os2.setup:
        (d)         comp.os.os2.multimedia:
        (e)               comp.os.os2.bugs:

        (f)       voter's last, first name:

        e-mail ballot to mlevis@lonestar.utsa.edu by April 24

----cut here----------------cut here----------------cut here----------------

Example Ballot #1:

	(a) comp.os.os2.programmer.porting: yes
	(b)    comp.os.os2.programmer.misc: yes
	(c)              comp.os.os2.setup: no
	(d)         comp.os.os2.multimedia:
	(e)               comp.os.os2.bugs: no

	(f)       voter's last, first name: Smith, John

	In this example, John Smith favors comp.os.os2.programmer.porting
	to be created, and comp.os.os2.programmer to be renamed to
	comp.os.os2.programmer.misc.  He also opposes the creation of
	comp.os.os2.setup and comp.os.os2.bugs.  He does not have a view
	on the creation of comp.os.os2.multimedia.

Example Ballot #2:

	(a) comp.os.os2.programmer.porting: yes
	(b)    comp.os.os2.programmer.misc: yes
	(c)              comp.os.os2.setup: yes
	(d)         comp.os.os2.multimedia: yes
	(e)               comp.os.os2.bugs: yes

	(f)       voter's last, first name: Doe, Jane

	In this example, Jane Doe favors the creation or rename of all
	the proposals.

Voting Rules:

	* One vote per person.  If you vote more than once, only the most
	  recent vote will be counted.

	* Votes must be mailed to me by the person voting.  Proxy voting,
	  forwarding, posting votes to a newsgroup, etc. will not be counted.

	* Do not ask how the votes are going.  The status of the votings
	  will be revealed only after the poll closes.

	* I will acknowledge votes by Mass Acknowledgement (ACK).  I will
	  post the ACK twice (see Schedule below).

	* If you need help for using your editor, using e-mail, how
	  voting works in general, etc. then ask an expert at your site.
	  Also see the ``How To Create a New Newsgroup'' article which is
	  posted to news.answers on a regular basis.

	* If you need any clarifications on voting procedures for this
	  CFV, send me e-mail at mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu.

	* When the voting period is over (see Schedule below), a proposal
	  passes if both of the following formulas are true:
	  1)  the number of YES votes exceeds the number of NO votes
	      by at least 100 (i.e. YES >= NO + 100, or YES - NO >= 100).
	  2)  the number of YES votes exceeds at least twice the
	      number of NO votes (i.e. YES >= 2 * NO, or YES - NO >= NO).
	  In other words, a proposal passes if:
	      YES - NO >= max (100, NO)
	  where max() returns the highest number given to it.

Schedule:

	The voting period started on March 29 when the first CFV was posted
	by David Lawrence (the news.announce.newgroups moderator).

	This third CFV is a repeat of the first CFV, but it also has the
	Mass Acknowledgement (ACK) of names and e-mail addresses of those who
	have already voted -- re-send your vote if it is not there.  If you
	have not voted yet, vote now!

	The voting period will end at 11:59:59 pm (Central Time), on
	April 24, 1993.  Votes received after that time will not count.
	The voting results and tally will be posted shortly after that
	date.

Mass Acknowledgement:

	Here is the list of people who have already sent in their ballots
	as of 12:01 am (Central Time) on April 15, 1993:

                          bdubbs@cs.tamu.edu
Aiyagari, Sanjay          ska1@crux3.cit.cornell.edu
Alcorn, Justin            alcorn@alpha.ces.cwru.edu
Arien, Peter              LAAAA43%BLEKUL11.BITNET@FRMOP11.CNUSC.FR
Asselin, Andre            assela@rpi.edu
Aurand, Tom               tom@longs.lance.colostate.edu
Baechler, Cedric          cbaechle@iiic.ethz.ch
Bartlett, Warren          bart@pdn.paradyne.com
Bates, John               johnb@up.edu
Beadles, J.               jeff@neon.rain.com
Beal, Kenneth             kbeal@amber.ssd.csd.harris.com
Bedersdorfer, Jochen      beders@dfki.uni-sb.de
Bell, Douglas             dab6@SCL.CWRU.Edu
Benningfield, Robert      concert.net!aurs01!aurw7a!benningf
Biegel, Bryan             biegel@tigris.stanford.edu
Blackman, Ed              EBB7683@VENUS.TAMU.EDU
Bodnar, John              jbodnar@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Boisvert, Wesley          wesb@dermit.isis.org
boneham, kevin            boneham@suntan.eng.usf.edu
Boresch, Stefan           boresch@tammy.harvard.edu
Boschma, Wilfried         v911071@si.hhs.nl
Botha, David              BOTH-DD@mella.ee.up.ac.za
Bowe, Nathaniel           woody@vnet.IBM.COM
Bowers, Neil              neilb@borris.eece.unm.edu
Braun,David               roland@roll.choate.edu
Bronner, Geoffrey         geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu
Brors, Dieter             db@ix.de
Brown, Bill               brown@chinchilla.ir.ucf.edu
Cambria, Michael          cambria@smaug.enet.dec.com
Carlson, Bill             woc8r@poplar.cs.virginia.edu
Champion, Evan            evanc@carbon.isis.org
Chandonia, John           chandoni@husc.harvard.edu
Chen, Ted                 tedc@cs.ubc.ca
Chua, Hak                 c164-ez@po.berkeley.edu
Ciesielski, Boleslaw      bolek@viewlogic.com
Clement, Bruce            frey@alfheim.actrix.gen.nz
Clemente, Marc F.         mfclemente@ucdavis.edu
Cline, Ernest             cline@usceast.cs.scarolina.edu
Cocking , Simon           simonc@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au
Compton, Curtis           compton@plains.NoDak.edu
Costello, Robert          rcc9885@ultb.isc.rit.edu
Coulman, Randy            coulman@skdad.usask.ca
Cox, Anthony              AECOX@waikato.ac.nz
Cox, Robert               rcox@qvack.EE.McGill.CA
Culliton, Tom             culliton@srg.af.mil
daigle, Joe               daigle@apollo.hp.com
DeCarlo, John             jdecarlo@mitre.org
Dippold, Ron              rdippold@qualcomm.com
Donaldson, Ian            icd@ecr.mu.oz.au
Drye, Stephen             scdrye@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca
Duffy, Patrick            duffy@theory.chem.ubc.ca
Dusitsin, Krid            dusitsin@ee.umr.edu
Erzberger, Martin         erzberg@ifi.unizh.ch
Feldtmann, Marten         marten@feki.toppoint.de
Feustel, Edward           efeustel@ida.org
filippini,luigi           luigi@berlioz.crs4.it
Fischer, Stefan           fischer@tammy.harvard.edu
Fleuren, Rik              rik@sci.kun.nl
Francis, Tim              francis@vnet.IBM.COM
Francois Menard           menaf00@dmi.usherb.ca
Franks, Derek             franks@hercules.cs.uregina.ca
Franzki, Wolfgang         wfranzki@hlrserv.hlrz.kfa-juelich.de
Friedrich, Jochen         jofried@fzi.de
Friis, Torben             tfriis@imada.ou.dk
G"unther, Stefan          stefan@med-informatik.uni-hildesheim.de
Galarza, Edward           LENBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Gammon, Robert            rgammon@rgam.sc.ti.com
Gartler, Hermann          herm@owlnet.rice.edu
Garzik, Jeff              gtd543a@prism.gatech.edu
Gershman, Mark            gershman@bach.udel.edu
Giller, David R.          rafetmad@cheshire.oxy.edu
Gnassi, John              jgnassi@hstbme.mit.edu
Goyal, Mohit              goyal@utdallas.edu
Green, Anthony            green@roboco.uucp
Grupenhoff, Mike          kashmir@wam.umd.edu
Guo, Youren               yguo@sparc0a.cs.uiuc.edu
Hacker;Jonathan           hacker@cco.caltech.edu
Haggerty, Michael         mrhagger@Athena.MIT.EDU
Hargrave, BJ              fattire@vnet.IBM.COM
Hartman, Shane            shane@spr.com
Hartzman, Les             hartzman@kilroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov
Hassa, George             hassag@rpi.edu
Hed, Nevo                 nyh@wpi.WPI.EDU
Heederik, Robbert         heederik@fwi.uva.nl
Hellerhoff, Torsten       Torsten_Hellerhoff@ac2.maus.de
Hendel, Bernd             BHENDEL@estec.estec.esa.nl
Henriksen, Gerald         rn.1035@rose.com
Henry, Andrew             A.H.Henry@gdr.bath.ac.uk
Herbison, B.J.            herbison@lassie.ucx.lkg.dec.com
Herron, Kenneth           kherron@ms.uky.edu
Hilmer, Andrew            hilmera@mist.CS.ORST.EDU
Hoang, Long               lhoang@orion.oac.uci.edu
Hodge, Bob                HODGE@iccgcc.cs.hh.ab.com
Hodges, Matthew           modester@iastate.edu
Hollebone, Bruce          lermer@theory.chem.ubc.ca
holsman, Ian              IHolsman@cmutual.com.au
Hopkins, John             john@uhs1.uhs.uga.edu
Hoppenbrouwers, Jeroen    hoppie@kub.nl
Howard, Robert            robert.howard@matd.gatech.edu
Huang, Ping               pshuang@Athena.MIT.EDU
Jackson, Dave             D.Jackson@axion.bt.co.uk
Jensen, Colin             ljensen@netcom.com
Kassarjian, Steven        kassarji@spot.Colorado.EDU
Kiehl, Horst              kiehl@ibt013.ibt.kfa-juelich.de
Kitchin, Bruce            kitchin@lf.hp.com
Kone, Bob                 bkone@rflab.ee.ubc.ca
Kovarski, Mark            kovarski@zooid.guild.org
Kretzer, Myke             tanith@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Lacy, Stephen             sl31+@andrew.cmu.edu
lai, william              lai@seas.gwu.edu
Landy, Brian              landy@cco.caltech.edu
lau, frankie              lau@tammy.harvard.edu
Lau, Stephen              lau@ai.sri.com
Lawton, Gef               glawton@cs.uah.edu
Le Glasse, Franck         Franck.Leglasse@irisa.fr
Lebius, Henning           lebius@utkux1.utk.edu
lee, james                jelee@ucdavis.edu
Lehtonen, Jari            jarlehto@utu.fi
Leitner, Thomas           tom@finwds01.tu-graz.ac.at
Lempriere, Mike           mikel@networx.com
Lentin, Kevin             kevinl@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au
Leung, Johnnie            k7z092@rick.cs.ubc.ca
Lim, Pean                 plim@claircom.com
Lin, Steven               slin@cisco.com
Lindholm, George          lindholm@ucs.ubc.ca
Liukkonen, Juha           jliukkon@cc.helsinki.fi
Logan, Stan               logan@lexmark.com
Lu, Kevin                 kevinlu@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
Martin, Johannes          jmartin@mogli.zdv.uni-mainz.de
Mashao, Daniel            djm@lems.Brown.EDU
Maturo, Larry             larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu
Maxwell, Scott            scott.maxwell@channel1.com
Mayer, Gunther H.         gmayer@physik.uni-kl.de
Maynard, Jay              jmaynard@nyx.cs.du.edu
McCarthy, Christopher     mccarthy@gollum.ttd.teradyne.com
Mcgehrin, Matthew         matthew@dabeef@des.edu
McGing, John              jmcging@access.digex.com
McGuire, Ed               emcguire@intellection.com
McMillan, Andrew          Andrew.McMillan@folly.welly.gen.nz
meyer, jeff               moriarty@tc.fluke.COM
Miller, Richard           rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu
Mittelstaedt, Olaf H.-P.  mittelst@felix.rz.fh-ulm.de
moorcroft, marc           smarry@zooid.guild.org
Morrison, John Paul       jmorriso@ee.ubc.ca
Mosher, David             dmosher@nyx.cs.du.edu
Mouawad, Naji.            nmouawad@math.uwaterloo.ca
Mullins, Don              mullins@magnum.convex.com
Nadler, Cliff             cnadler@vnet.IBM.COM
Nareid, Helge             Helge.Nareid@due.unit.no
Narinian, Vartan          v.narinian@ic.ac.uk
Norton, Charles M.        cmn@ftp.com
o'neel, bruce             oneel@aplcenmp.apl.jhu.edu
O'Rourke, Sean            sorourke@lonestar.utsa.edu
Oldham, C. R.             cro@socrates.ed.asu.edu
Olson, Eric               ejo@kaja.gi.alaska.edu
Oussoren, Ronald          roussor@cs.vu.nl
owens, bill               owens@cookiemonster.cc.buffalo.edu
Parks, Dwayne             dcp@engr.uark.edu
Parry, Tom                parry@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
Pebly, Bob                pebly@vnet.IBM.COM
Perdue, Alicia            arperd00@mik.uky.edu
Petro, Herbert            hmpetro@mosaic.uncc.edu
Pietilainen, Pekka        ppi@eero.oulu.fi
Poole, David              dpoole@hydrogen.oscs.montana.edu
Powell, Stephen           stevep@kralizec.zeta.org.au
Prescod, Paul             papresco@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca
Provensal, jerome         uunet.UU.NET!iac!jerome
Quinn, Michael            quinn@phoenix.Princeton.EDU
Rao, Venkat               rao@cactus.org
Reisert, Jim              reisert@mast.enet.dec.com
Reynolds, Robert          easyrob@cs.utexas.edu
Robertson, James          ROBERTSON@PHYSC3.BYU.EDU
Roelofs, Greg             roe2@midway.uchicago.edu
Rosenvold, Johan Kristian jkr@ifi.uio.no
Ruppel, Markus            m.ruppel@imperial.ac.uk
Ryan, Sean                FSSPR@acad3.alaska.edu
Salomon, Larry            os2man@Panix.Com
Schimke, Nathan           schimken@cs.rpi.edu
Schipper, Haijo           haijo@cs.rug.nl
Seymour, Jim              qintar@agora.rain.com
Shankar, Gess             gess@knex.via.mind.ORG
Shaw, Jeremy              jeremy@plxsun.plx.com
Sierwald, Joern           Sierwald@tu-harburg.dbp.de
SIPPLES, TIMOTHY          sip1@midway.uchicago.edu
Skogstad, Oddbjorn        odskog@siri.unit.no
Smith, Donald             djs6015@ultb.isc.rit.edu
Smith, Eliot              esmith@psych.purdue.edu
Sneath, Tim               psyhtjs@mips.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk
Sorensen, Tom             gt0040a@prism.gatech.edu
Sriram, N                 swknasri@nuscc.nus.sg
Steele, Alan              steele@nrcphy1.phy.nrc.ca
Steinkopf, Dirk           dirk@km21.zfe.siemens.de
Stirling, Ian T.          ian@vnet.IBM.COM
Strazdus, Stephen         sstrazdu@sedona.intel.com
streeter, carl            cstreete@nyx.cs.du.edu
Sum, Eva                  eesum00@mik.uky.edu
Sum, Joey                 jpsum00@mik.uky.edu
Suttor, Jeff              jsuttor@netcom.com
Swallow, Doug             doug@montage.oau.org
Sward, David              sward+@cmu.edu
Thomas, Stephen           swt@therson.affinity.mn.org
Thompson, Michael         tommy@msc.cornell.edu
Tiffany, Bernard          lbt@umich.edu
torremans, engelbert      etorrem%hvlpa@att.att.com
Tremain, Jim              JIM@BIOLOGY.watstar.uwaterloo.ca
Tsen, Maoee               tsen0001@student.tc.umn.edu
van der Lek, Petja        P.vanderLek@research.ptt.nl
Van Iwaarden, Ronald      rvaniwaa@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU
van Woerkom, Marc E.E.    Marc_Van-Woerkom@ac3.maus.de
Veeraraghavan, Venkatesh  venky@owlnet.rice.edu
Veldhuyzen, Eric          v912182@si.hhs.nl
Vigor, Kevin              kevin@wicat.COM
Villumsen, Ole            ovillumsen@daimi.aau.dk
Wald, David               wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu
Wallace, Jack             grey@vnet.IBM.COM
Wantosch, Rainer          RAINER@sasowa.han.de
Watson, Brett             watson@s1.elec.uq.oz.au
Weber-Fahr, Christoph     weber@rhrk.uni-kl.de
Weeks, Larry              dev@ecn.purdue.edu
Werner, John              werner@SOE.Berkeley.Edu
West, Mike                west@esd.dl.nec.com
weyrich, orville          uunet.uu.net!weyrich!orville
White, Andrew             apwhite@csugrad.cs.vt.edu
Wiersema, Brian           brianw@umd5.umd.edu
Wimmer, Carsten           Carsten_Wimmer@train.fido.de
Wittenauer, Allen         Allen_Wittenauer@crispy.carb.il.us
Woodbury, Gregory         ggw@wolves.Durham.NC.US
Worthington, Stephen      stephen@actrix.gen.nz
Wright, Gregory           gregory@bcstec.ca.boeing.com
Wyble, Richard            transfer.stratus.com!schunix!rwyble
YOUNG, DAVID M.           dyoung@netcom.com
Zabbal, Christian         kris@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca
zawodny, jeremy           jzawodn@andy.bgsu.edu
Zou, Nan                  nan@matt.ksu.ksu.edu


The next time you go to church, you can check the better creed, that is,
have learned that on the first go around.  But what's a body without
a little bit a'soul?

At the risk of offending everybody, I will interject the 13th century
point of view.  Christ descended immediately into the bosom of Abraham
to set captives captive.  He preached to the saved for three days before
drawing them with Him back to this earth.  I'm no expert on this part,
but Matthew (27:52-53) says about the death of Jesus: "tombs were opened,
and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.  And
coming forth from the tombs after his resurrection, they entered the
holy city and appeared to many."  (NAB)  Regarding the hell of the
damned, of which you speak, Christ did not see it (Ps 16:10, Acts 2:27),
although it saw Him (cf. Is 45:2).

Concerning the abodes of the dead, I don't want to subject my brethren
to further anguish, so I will direct you to contact me through e-mail
if you are genuinely concerned.

Your new body might be something like Adam's before his fateful encounter
with the Just One (Acts 7:52, CR trans. Vulgate): filled with infused
knowledge, absent of concupiscence, and immortal.  It would probably be
a little glorified, too.

I wouldn't recommend it.  It's really hot down at the center of the earth!
You know, the normal geothermal gradient, and all that.

Regards.

--
boundary, the catechist


As I promised, I would give you the name of the Panther's president.
After Huizenga announced the team name, he announced that Bill
Torrey is named the first president of the Panthers.

A little Bio from _Sun-Sentinel_
Torrey, the architect of four consecutive Stanley Cup champions as
persident and general manager of the New York Islanders.
Throughout his 27 years in the NHL, Bill Torrey's bow ties have become
as much of a signature as Andre Agassi's hair.

The Panthers will introduce a uniform, insignia, and ticket-price
information in early next month.  In the meantime, Huizenga leaves the
day-to-day operation in the hands of Torrey and Bob Clarke, the VP and
GM.

The Florida Panthers was chosen as the name of South Florida's NHL team
to focus attention on an endangered species.  There are 30 to 50 Florida
Panthers in the Everglades National Park, the Big Cypress National
Preserve and other parts of southwestern Florida.

"The Panther is the quickest-striking of all cats," Torrey said.
"Hopefully that's the way we'll play on ice."

More BIO:
In Torrey, Huizenga has the first man hired by the expansion Islanders
in 1972 and the one most responsible for guiding the Islanders to four
consecutive Stanley Cup championships (their first after only eight
seasons) and 14 consecutive winning seasons.  As executive vice president
of the California Golden Seals, Torrey watched the Seals go to the play-
offs in 1968, only their second NHL season.

"I guess this completes my own personal hat trick", said Torrey, 58, a
native of Montreal but a resident of Bear Lakes Country Club in Palm
Beach.

Jim G.
other accounts:
gorycki@sol.cse.fau.edu
jimg@cybernet.cse.fau.edu

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I repeat myself when under stress. I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress. I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat..."  Adrian Belew, "Indicipline"


Are you assuming that families in the inner city don't have family values ?
I sure hope not.


Dear Netters:

A new religious newsgroup "soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya" was pro-
posed  on  Oct  16,  1992. The discussion about this new proposed
newsgroup went on in various related groups.  The  proposal,  was
supposed to enter a vote during the last week of November 92. Due
to a false Call For Votes, by some opponent, the voting had to be
canceled.  I  quote  here  a  statement  from  the  moderator  of
new.announce.newgroups:

"The current Call For Votes (CFV) for an Ahmadiyya newsgroup
 is being canceled. A new call for votes will be issued within
 a few weeks, possibly with a new impartial vote  taker.  Discus-
 sion on the proposal is still open until the new vote is called..."
                                -- by Lawrence, Nov 20, 1992.

A lot of confusion arose among the netter as  to  whom  to  vote.
Therefore  it was decided to give a cool down period, so that all
confusions are over. It has been over 4 months  of  that  instant
and now we are again attempting to create this newsgroup. A fresh
RFD is hereby being issued. Please! take part in  the  discussion
under the same  title heading  and in  "news.groups"  or at least
cross-post it to "news.groups".

****************************************************************

                REQUEST  FOR  DISCUSSION

****************************************************************

NAME OF PROPOSED NEWSGROUP:
==========================

     soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya

CHARTER:
=======

     A religious newsgroup, which would mainly  discuss  the  be-
liefs,  teachings,  philosophy  and ideologies of all major reli-
gions of the world as  they  exist  to  foster  better  religious
knowledge  and  understanding among followers of all religions as
they share common basis. This newsgroup will be devoted to  build
a  peaceful  mutual  understanding  of  the  Ahmadiyya  branch of
Islam, its peacefull beliefs, ideology and philosophy and how  it
is  different  from  other  branches  of Islam in fostering world
peace and developing better understanding among religious people.
It may also be used to post important religious events within the
World Wide Ahmadiyya Islamic Community in general.

PURPOSE OF THE GROUP:
====================

     The following are some of the main purposes this group will
     achieve:

     i)   To discuss the common beliefs of all major religions as
          they relate to Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.

     ii)  To discuss the doctrines, origin and teachings  of this
          puissant spiritual force on earth.

     iii) To examine Islamic teachings and beliefs in general  in
          light  of the Quran  and established Islamic traditions
          of 15 centuries from Ahmadiyya perspective.

     iv)  To discuss the similarities  between Ahmadi Muslims and
          people of other Religions  of the world and discuss how
          religious tolerance  and respect to other's  faiths can
          be brought about to  eliminate inter-religion rivalries
          and hatred among people of religions.

     v)   To discuss the origin and teachings of all religions in
          general and Islamic and Ahmadiyya Muslims in particular
          to foster better understanding among Ahmadi Muslims and
          other religious people.

     vi)  To discuss current world problems and solution to these
          problems as offered by religion.

     vii) To exchange important news and views about the Ahmadiyya
          Muslim Community and other Religions.

     viii)To add diversity in the religious newsgroups present
          on Usenet.

     ix)  To discuss why  religious persecution is on the rise  in
          the world  and find  solutions to remedy the ever deter-
          iorating  situation  in the  world in general and in the
          Islamic world in particular.

     x)   To discuss the contributions of founders of  all  reli-
          gions and their  people for humanity, society and world
          peace in general and by the International Ahmadiyya Mus
          -lim Community in particular.

TYPE:
====

The group will be MODERATED for orderly and free religious dialo-
gue.   The moderation will NOT prevent disagreement or dissent to
beliefs, but will mainly be used  to  prevent  derogatory/squalid
use  of  dialect  and irrelevant issues. The moderators have been
decided through personal e-mail and through a  general  consensus
among  the proponants by discussion in news.groups. The following
moderators have been proposed and agreed upon:

Moderator:     Nabeel A. Rana  (rana@rintintin.colorado.edu)
Co-Moderator:  Dr. Tahir Ijaz  (ijaz@ccu.umanitoba.ca)

A BRIEF DESCRIPTION ABOUT AHMADIYYA/ISLAM:
=========================================

        The Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam, an international organi-
sation, was founder in 1989 in Qadian, India. The founder of this
sect, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908), proclaimed to be the
Promised Reformer of this age as foretold in almost all the major
religions of the world today (Islam, Christianity, Judiasm,  Hin-
duism).  He  claimed  to  be  the  long awaited second comming of
Jesus Christ (metaphorically), the Muslim Mahdi, and the Promised
Messiah.  He  claimed that the prophecies contained in almost all
the great religions of the world about the advent of a  messenger
from God have been fulfilled.

        The claims Hazrat Ahmad raised storms  of  hostility  and
extreme  oposition from many priestlike people of Muslims, Chris-
tians, Jews and Hindus of that age. Such opposition is often wit-
nessed  in  the history of divine reformers. Even today this sect
is being persecuted specially in  some  of  the  Muslim  regimes.
Dispite  the  opposition  and persecution, this sect has won many
adherents in 130 countries. It has over 10 million followers, who
come from a diverse ethnic and cultural background.

        The sect is devoted to world peace and in bringing  about
a better understanding of religion, and the founders of all reli-
gions. Its mission is to unite mankind into one Universal  broth-
erhood  and  develop  a  better  understanding  of  faith. Ahmadi
Muslims have always been opposed to all kind of violence and spe-
cially religious intollerance and fundamentalism.

        Among its many philanthropic activities, the sect has es-
tablished  a network of hundreds of schools, hospitals, and clin-
ics in many third world countries. These institutions are staffed
by  volunteer  professional  and are fully financed by the sect's
internal resources.

        The Ahmadiyya mission is to bring about a universal moral
reform,  establish  peace and justice, and to unite mankind under
one universal religion.

NEWSGROUP CREATION:
==================


"fete"??? Since this word both formally and commonly refers to
positive/joyous events, your misuse of it here is rather unsettling.

I certainly abhor those Israeli policies and attitudes that are
abusive towards the Palestinians/Gazans. Given that, however, there
*is no comparison* between the reality of the Warsaw Ghetto and in
Gaza.

Just as international law recognizes the right of the occupying
entity to maintain order, especially in the face of elements
that are consciously attempting to disrupt the civil structure.
Ironically, international law recognizes each of these focusses
(that of the occupied and the occupier) even though they are
inherently in conflict.

Israel certainly cannot, and should not, continue its present
policies towards Gazan residents. There is, however, a third
alternative- the creation and implementation of a jewish "dhimmi"
system with Gazans/Palestinians as benignly "protected" citizens.
Would you find THAT as acceptable in that form as you do with
regard to Islam's policies towards its minorities?

It is a race, then? Between Israel's anti-Palestinian/Gazan
"Final Solution" and the Arab World's anti-Israel/jewish
"Final Solution". Do you favor one? neither?

Since there is justifiable worry by various parties that Israel
and Arab/Palestinian "final solution" intentions exist, isn't it
important that BOTH Israeli *and* Palestinian/Gazan "rights"
be secured?


I don't think they're paying for it.

Useful?  I find his estimate of the annual value to law enforcement
of $5 million quite useful, if rough (e.g. wiretaps may be
preferentially used on otherwise-hard-to-catch criminals, resulting
in an underestimate).  This comes to twenty cents a head over the
U.S. population.  I would find some rigorous numbers on this quite
useful -- it would make for nice slogans: "Your privacy is worth
$0.37", or whatever it turns out to be.


This game would have been great as part of a double-header on ABC or
ESPN; the league would have been able to push back-to-back wins by
Le Magnifique and The Great One.  Unfortunately, the only network
that would have done that was SCA, seen in few areas and hard to
justify as a pay channel. )-;

gld


[good points on buddhism, etc. deleted]

just because one says christianity -- true christianity -- is hard to
follow faithfully does NOT mean that one discounts the validity and
difficulty of other religions.  i admire those of any religion who are
willing to make the kind of sacrifices and dedicate themselves
spiritually in the way you are talking about.

[more deleted]

do you think this is what christianity is all about?  not all
christians believe in this particular story literally.  it sounds
above like you are supporting a policy of "to each his own" -- here is
another example of that.  if it helps someone's faith to take every
word of the bible literally, i support and respect that, too.

please don't judge all of christianity by one man.  the only man one
can truly judge all of christianity by is jesus (makes sense, right?).

i think his point about how we put our lives into little boxes is very
true -- what does your comment about robertson have to do with that?

i was raised agnostic -- my father was never baptised and was raised
atheist.  he is not an atheist because he found a close-mindedness
present in the viewpoint of his parents equal to the close-mindedness
he found in the viewpoint of the christians he came in contact with.
thus i was _free_ to choose how to live my life, and he supported the
decision i made to join the episcopal church, although he emphasized
to me that his respect for my beliefs should result in my not
intruding on his beliefs, ie, i should not try to convert him, as that
is his decision.  (please, no flames or advice on how to convert him!)
one of my good friends is hindi and i greatly respect her
beliefs and the culture surrounding her religion.  my best friend is
jewish and i have always held a profound resepct for the jewish
religion (chaim potok and isaac bashevis singer are two of my favorite
authors).  i really do not think you can make that kind of
generalization about how christians choose -- and i do mean CHOOSE--
their faith.  if they have not consciously accepted the faith in their
adult lives (which is what confirmation represents), THEN you can talk
about their being brainwashed.


So, we should ban the ammunition?  Why not get rid of the guns?

It is worse than others?  The National Anthem?  Should it be changed too?
God Bless America?  The list goes on...

Then you'd be no better than the people you despise.

Oh?

An endorsement, or an acknowledgement?  I think gods are things that people
are proud of, but I don't think the motto encourages belief.

Is it?

[...]

Would you approve of such a motto?

And removing the tool will solve the problem?

Or will it increase the problem?


Do you know of any freely distributable c++ (or c) code for public
key cryptography (such as RSA)?

I've tried various archie searches to no avail.


Hello
	HELP!!! please
		I am a student of turbo c++ and graphics programming
	and I am having some problems finding algorithms and code
	to teach me how to do some stuff..

	1) Where is there a book or code that will teach me how
	to read and write pcx,dbf,and gif files?

	2) How do I access the extra ram on my paradise video board
	so I can do paging in the higher vga modes ie: 320x200x256
	800x600x256
	3) anybody got a line on a good book to help answer these question?

Thanks very much !

send reply's to : Palm@snycanva.bitnet


Wetteland is on the DL effective March 26 or something like that.


OK, here's at least one Christian's answer:

Jesus was a JEW, not a Christian.  In this context Matthew 5:14-19 makes
sense.  Matt 5:17 "Do not think that I [Jesus] came to abolish the Law or
the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."  Jesus lived
under the Jewish law.  However, He was the culmination of the promises
of the Prophets.  He came to *fulfill* the prophecies and fully obey
God's purposes.

Verse 18 says "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass
away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law,
until all is accomplished."  The key to this verse IMHO is the last
phrase.  Jesus, as the fulfillment of the law, "accomplished" what the
Law was supposed to accomplish.

Verse 19:  "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments,
and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the
kingdom of heaven."  Taken in the context of Jesus teaching Jewish
people about living lives under the law, this makes sense.

In general, it appears that Jesus is responding to some criticism he
must have received about "doing away with the Law."  That was not
Jesus' intent at all.  He had come to earth to live the Law as it
should be lived and fulfill the promises made by God to his
people all the way back to Eve [Gen 3:15-The serpent will bruise your
heel, but *He* will bruise his head.]  Jesus appeared to be "doing
away with the Law" because he did not honor the traditions of men as
equal to the Law of God.  He regularly locked horns with the religious
leaders of the day because he would not conform to *their* rules, only
God's Law.

In the Matthew passage Jesus is defending his dedication to the Law
and defending himself against his accusors.  Almost the entire Sermon
on the Mount (Matt. 5-7) is dedicated to helping the Jewish people
understand the true intent of the Law, sweeping away the clutter which
had been introduced by the Pharasees and their traditions.

In Galatians 3:23-26, Paul describes the relationship of Jesus to the
Law in this way:

[23] But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being
shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.  [24] Therefore
the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be
justified by faith.  [25]  But now that faith has come, we are no
longer under a tutor.  [26] For you are all sons of God through faith
in Christ Jesus.

I believe this says that after Christ was revealed, the Law had
served it's purpose, i.e. "our tutor to lead us to Christ," and
now, "we are no longer under a tutor."  The law has been "fulfilled"
as Christ said he would do.

God, the author of the old Law, and the Christ/Man, Jesus, are the same
personality.  Therefore, the old Law and the new Testament (the "last
will and testament" of Jesus) are based on the same moral principles.
It makes sense that many of the principles in the old Law are
re-expressed in Christianity.

On the other hand, now that the Law has fulfilled it's purpose and
Christians relate to God through Christ, not the Law, it also makes
sense that new practices and new symbolisms were established to
represent the "mysteries" of this new relationship.  i.e. Baptism
representing Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-8),
The Lord's supper as a memorial to His sacrifice (I Cor. 11:26), and
Sunday as a day of worship commemorating His resurrection (Matt 28:1ff,
Acts 20:7)

OK, That's one Christian's explanation.  I don't claim to have all
these issues completely settled even in my own mind and I welcome
other Christians to offer other alternatives.

Please excuse the long posting.  Thanks for your interest if you have read
this far...


IRWIN suggests the use of pre-formatted tapes for their tape drives, as
you often can't successfully format a tape and need  bulk-erase it before
you can format it again. Anyway, I have some new, preformatted tapes for
IRWIN 250 tape drives.
IRWIN accuTRAK series 120-250MB, $16/ea. New never used.
3M DC2120, RHOMAT Format.  $16/ea. Wraped.

Email if interested.

Feng


#>This happened about a year ago on the Washington DC Beltway.
#>Snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to
#>throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass.  Four or five
#>cars were hit.  There were several serious injuries, and sadly
#>a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck
#>in the head by one of the larger rocks.  I don't recall if she
#>made it, but I think she was comatose for a month or so and
#>doctors weren't holding out hope that she'd live.
#>
#>What the hell is happening to this great country of ours?  I
#>can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such, but
#>20 pound rocks??!  Has our society really stooped this low??

   Yes. Nobody is watching them.  If they get caught, there is no punishment
 at all.  In the old days such behaviour would be rewarded with a whipping
 with a good-sized belt, and then taken into some hospital to see first hand
 what kind of damage such accidents cause.   Of course this doesn't happen
 any more.  That whipping would probably save the kid's life by teaching
 him some respect for others.  A person with that little respect would
 inevitably wind up dead early anyway.

   The problem is creeping gradualism.  If you put a frog into hot water,
 he just jumps out.  But if you put him into cold water and then ever-so-
 gradually heat it, the frog will cook.  This is what the entertainment
 industry and lack of religious, moral, and educational standards in our
 modern North American society have done to us over the years.  Now that
 we are about to be 'cooked', we may have woken up too late.

#>
#>Erik velapold
#
#Society, as we have known it, it coming apart at the seams! The basic reason
#is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is
#"No Big Deal". Kid's see hundreds on murderous acts on TV, we can abort
#children on demand, and kill the sick and old at will. So why be surprised
#when some kids drop 20 lbs rocks and kill people. They don't care because the
#message they hear is "Life is Cheap"!

  And the education system and the Religious Leaders aren't doing much
 about it, either.  With both parents working in this society, where is
 the stabilizing influence at home?   Latchkey children are everywhere!
 And these latchkey kids can watch whatever rotten videos and listen to
 whatever violent hate-promoting "music" and videos they like because no
 one is home to stop it.

  This day and age, when there is about 100 times more things to learn
 than when I went to school, our answer to this increased knowledge is
 shorter school hours and more leisure time!  I say keep the kids in
 school longer, feed them good food and teach them something, and when
 they get home, have a parent there to interact and monitor them.  There
 is a very old and now forgotten proverb: a child left on his own will
 bring a parent to grief.  Daycare systems are not the answer.  This is
 just shifting the parents' own responsibilities off on someone else to
 whom it's not a life-long committment, but rather just a job.

#
#AT

  Followups should go to alt.parents-teens

 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        |  Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca
 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278
 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074
 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3


[ Article crossposted from comp.sys.hp ]
[ Author was Gordon Lang ]
[ Posted on 5 Apr 1993 23:25:27 GMT ]

[ Article crossposted from comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware ]
[ Author was Gordon Lang ]
[ Posted on 5 Apr 1993 23:19:01 GMT ]

I need a device (either an ISA board or a subsystem) which will
take two RGB video signals and combine them according to a template.
The template can be as simple as a rectangular window with signal
one being used for the interior and signal two for the exterior.
But I beleive fancier harware may also exist which I do not want
to exclude from my search.  I know this sort of hardware exists
for NTSC, etc. but I need it for RGB.

Please email and or post any leads....


I posted this about tow weeks ago but never saw it make it (Then again
I've had some problems with the mail system). Apologies if this appears
for the second time:

Usually when I start up an application, I first get the window outline
on my display. I then have to click on the mouse button to actually
place the window on the screen. Yet when I specify the -geometry
option the window appears right away, the properties specified by
the -geometry argument. The question now is:

How can I override the intermediary step of the user having to specify
window position with a mouseclick? I've tried explicitly setting window
size and position, but that did alter the normal program behaviour.

Thanks for any hints
---> Robert

PS: I'm working in plain X, using tvtwm.

******************************************************************************
* Robert Gasch        * Der erste Mai ist der Tag an dem die Stadt ins      *
* Oracle Engineering   * Freihe tritt und den staatlichen Monopolanspruch    *
* De Meern, NL        * auf Gewalt in Frage stellt                          *
* rgasch@nl.oracle.com *                           - Einstuerzende Neubauten *
******************************************************************************


[a lot of stuff deleted]

:      For that matter, stay Biblical and call it Omar Rasheet (The Feast of
: First Fruits).  Torah commands that this be observed on the day following
: the Sabbath of Passover week.  (Sunday by any other name in modern
: parlance.)  Why is there so much objection to observing the Resurrection
: on the 1st day of the week on which it actually occured?  Why jump it all
: over the calendar the way Easter does?  Why not just go with the Sunday
: following Passover the way the Bible has it?  Why seek after unbiblical
: methods?
:
In fact, that is the reason Easter "jumps all over the calendar"- Passsover
itself is a lunar holiday, not a solar one, and thus falls over a wide
possible span of times.  The few times that Easter does not fall during or
after Passover are because Easter is further linked to the Vernal Equinox-
the beginning of spring.

[more deletions]
:
:       So what does this question have to do with Easter (the whore
: goddess)?  I am all for celebrating the Resurrection.  Just keep that
: whore out of the discussion.
:
Your obsession with the term "whore" clouds your argument.  "Whore" is
a value judgement, not a descriptive term.

[more deletions]

Overall, this argument is an illustration of the "etymological fallacy"
(see J.P. Louw: _Semantics of NT Greek_).  That is the idea that the true
meaning of a word lies in its origins and linguistic form.  In fact, our
own experience demonstrates that the meaning of a word is bound up with
how it is _used_, not where it came from.  Very few modern people would
make any connection whatsoever between "Easter" and "Ishtar."  If Daniel
Seagard does, then for him it has that meaning.  But that is a highly
idiosyncratic "meaning," and not one that needs much refutation.


As quoted from <1993Apr14.184448.2331@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu> by jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu:

You don't know much about modern automatic weapons, do you?  Just about ANYBODY
with basic manufacturing skill can turn out HIGH QUALITY submachineguns.  A
couple of high school shop teachers were recently arrested for building
submachineguns in the school shop.

I suggest that you go to the library and find a copy of "Smallarms of the
World".  Your entire premise is based on non-factual assumptions.


I just picked up a second-hand "color option" for the NEC P5200
24pin dot matrix printer.  Alas, there were no installation instructions,
so I am totally confused on WHY it WON'T GO IN!

Do I have to remove the actaual print head?  It seems *almost* to fit,
but not quite.

Please... any info would be most appreciated!


Yesterday, I watched an outstanding documentary on PBS prepared for Frontline
by the documentary consortia.  It is called "Memory of the camps" and shows some
"un-censored" pictures taken immediately after the liberation of Bergen-Belsen
and other death camps.

I recommend it to everybody.  Check with your PBS station for re-broadcast.
IT IS A MUST SEE documentary.

In the Seatle, Vancouver area KSTS-9 will re-broadcast the documentary
on Monday 01:30 am.
You can also order a copy from PBS Video 1-800-3287271.  The cost is $59.95.


It's not the picture tube. More likely the flyback. Emerson? can't admire.
Han


There are several problems with the way the game is being presented to the
fans.  I feel that geographical names would enhance regional loyalties
more than names honouring personages.  And of course, they would not appear
nearly as confusing to one approaching the sport for the first time.
Another thing that bothers me is the points system.  Percentages, as used in
the other major sports are clearly more informative.  When I look at the
NHL standings the first thing I have to do is make a quick calculation to
account for games in hand (which is almost always the case).  Some will
object to percentages, claiming perhaps, that it is an "Americanization"
of the sport but I feel that using percentages is more informative and
whether it is "American" or not is irrelevant.

Even if Orr couldn't have contributed without the likes of Norris, you would
have to agree that Norris couldn't have contributed without the likes of Orr.
And taking a poll of most fans would quickly tell you who the fans feel made
the more meaningful contribution.

It doesn't look as if the division names are going to hold up either does it?

--


Homosexual Christians have indeed "checked out" these verses.  Some of
them are used against us only through incredibly perverse interpretations.
Others simply do not address the issues.

You would seem to be more in need of a careful and Spirit-led course
in exegesis than most of the gay Christians I know.  I suggest that
you stop "proof-texting" about things you know nothing about.


Here is an update on the Goalie mask poll...
	First, since so many people gave me their 3 best, I decided to
give 3 pts for their favorite, 2 pts for 2nd, 1 for 3rd. If you e-mailed
a response with only one, I gave it 3 pts. Please feel free to send me
your 2 other favorites, if you only sent one before.
	Also, votes are still welcome! Any mask you like will do, as I
have received votes for players not in the NHL. Please mention what team
they play for, though.
	So here are the up-to-date results so far:

Player                 Team              Pts     Votes
-------------------------------------------------------
1. Ed Belfour          Chicago            8        4
   Andy Moog           Boston             8        3
3. Curtis Joseph       St. Louis          5        2
4. Brian Hayward       San Jose           4        2
5. Grant Fuhr          Buffalo            3        1
   Ron Hextall         Quebec             3        1
7. Clint Malarchuk     Buffalo            2        1
   Manon Rheaume       Atlanta (IHL)      2        1
9. John Casey          Minnesota          1        1
   Rick Wamsley        Toronto (retired)  1        1

	Thanks to all that voted, and keep 'em coming!


Hi Everyone--

  It's spend-the-money-before-it-goes-away time here at U.Florida
and we need to find some PC-based software that will do contour
plotting with irregular boundaries,i.e., a 2-D profile of a soil
                                    system with a pond superimposed
                /-----------------  on it.  We've given SURFER a
    POND      /                  |  trial run but it interpolates
            /                    |  contours out into the pond and/or
----------/                      |  creates artifacts at the borders.
a response, I'll post a summary.  Thanks -- (and now back to lurking).


comp.windows.x

	Please igore my previouse calculation mistaked. Please see the correct
calculation. Sorry!
 x3 = 300;
 @ = art tan (500 - 270)/(800 - 100)) = 18.19 degrees;
 y3 = 100 + (300 - 270)/tan(@) = 191.29 ~= 191 integer


I am working on a problem of scheduling classroom, and I will like to know if
you have some software, papers or articles about it. If you have something
relate it,  please let me know.

		thanks


Even if they outlawed private posession of firearms, there would be no moral
force behind that law; I imagine compliance would be low.


You can also just put the detector off to the side on the dash so the cop
doesn't see it right away...Valentine is the best detector by far (as stated
by Car and Driver) and even tells you what direction the radar is coming from.
 It also gives the amount of "threats" it is picking up, so if you go through
 the same place everyday, and it always goes off there, you can glance at the
 number of "threats" the Valentine is detecting to see if it is a genuine cop.
  It's about $300 and you can only get it factory direct..one problem.
                                            Rob Fusi
                                            rwf2@lehigh.edu


Does anyone know exactly how Digital Eclipse does their upgrades?  Someone was
suggesting to me that some chips may not be able to perform at 33MHz.  Is this
true, and if so, how does DESI deal with that?

-David


The Clipper chip is just the culmination of Dorthy Denning et all.
But lets ignore that for the moment.

The fundamental question is:Can the government stop me from using
encryption?

Ignoring for the moment the question of patented processes (such as
Public Keys), can the government stop me from using an encryption
process?

If the answer is yes then what freedom we have in this country is
truly gone and its time to get out the guns or the lawyers
(depending upon which causes more damage and to whom).

However assuming that I can still encrypt things as I please, who
cares about the clipper chip? As far as I'm concerned a phone line
is insecure PERIOD. I don't care if they encrypt it 10 ways from
sunday, if I didn't do the encrypting, I don't trust it. This is the
attitude that everyone else should have. Instead of worrying about a
clipper chip, simply connect your handset to your computer and feed
the voice single through, process, encrypt, and transmit over the
phone. The guy on the other hand then does the same in reverse.

Can't work you say? No Standard you say? Obviously you have never
uses PGP.

Anyone who expects the government to protect their freedoms is
kidding themselves. Only you can protect your own freedoms.

One final thought addressed to EFF:
	1.Do you support the implementation of ANY form of
	encryption where the encryption key must be revealed?
	2.If you do, why? If not, why?
	3.What SPECIFIC actions are you planning to take to either
	support or stop this proposal?
	4.If you do not support this proposal, what alternatives do
	you offer?

				The Jester


Rick Tocchet was captain of the Flyers for several years before he was
traded to the Pens...

                                    -John Santore

=============================================================================
 ____________________
/                    \                   "We break the surface tension
\_________     ____   \                   with our wild kinetic dreams"
/             /    \   \                        -Rush, Grand Designs
\_______     /  (*) )   )
/           / /\___/   /                 Go Philadelphia Flyers!
\_____     / /        /
/         /  \_______/                   John Santore (jsbh@andrew.cmu.edu)
\________/


I would like to know if a Performa Plus monitor is compatible with Apple 14in
Color Display, or it is just a VGA moniro.  Any help will be appreciate.


:
: No.  I make a distinction between working for yourself to survive and
: paying dues to Mother Nature in the form of labour and working for
: Joe propertyowner because you do not have the option of working for
: yourself.  Joe propertyowner stands between you and the earth you
: work and expects you to pay him *and* mother nature for the right
: to survive.  The property laws create a layer of parasites that get
: fat on the fact that people have *no option* except to work in
: factories.
:
I want people to be able to get the things they need in life.  Property
ownership may not be ideal, but it is far better at letting people get
what they need to live a productive, fulfulling life.

The first experiment in America, where property ownership was denied,
caused, starvation, hunger, and death.  Few people know that the
Pilgrims originally tried to have common property to grow food and a
common food store.  Many people know the hardships they suffered the
first few winters because of it.  After arriving, the Pilgrims made all
property common.  They all shared in the work and the resulting crops
went into a common store.  After much debate the new Governor Bradford
privitized the land; assigning plots to each family.  According to Perry
D. Westbrook:  "The change was immediately justified by the increased
industry of the inhabitants and by the larger acreage planted."

experience that was had in this common course and condition, tried
sundry years and that amongst godly and sober men, may well evince the
vanity of that conceit of Plato's and other ancients applauded by some of
later times; that the taking away of property and bringing in community into
a commonwealth would make them happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser
than God.  For this community (so far as it was) was found to breed much
confusion and discontent and retard much employment that would have been
to their benefit and comfort."

Bradford did not blame this failure on the "strangers", but on the basic
selfishness in all men.  He wrote "seeing all men have this corruption in
them, God in his wisdom saw another course fitter for them."  In other
words, according to Westbrook, "Bradford found private enterprise to be
the most suitable economic policy for mankind in its fallen state."

Let's not make the same mistake that the Pilgrims made.  Private
property allows a society to flourish, the alternative brings
starvation, poverty and discontent.


I used the information provided in the recent resource listings and
tried to ftp to:

ccu1.aukland.ac.nz [130.216.1.5]:  ftp/mac/architec - *VISION-3D facet

and received an 'unknown host' message.

mail to Paul D. Bourke (pdbourke@ccu1.aukland.ac.nz) bounces with basically
the same problem.

Where'd he go????

Rick


I was wondering if someone could point me to somewhere I could
find a list (and hopefully comparison) of all the convertibles that are
out these days. Seems like they are making a big comeback - but I'm not
sure where to look


	No chance.  If that CS ignited at all, it would have been
quite similar to a grain bin explosion.  Explosion, I note.  The
entire compound would have been leveled, not merely burned.  As
there was no explosion, there was no CS ignition causing the fire.

	Note: at five miles a decent grain elevator explosion will
knock you on your butt and your ears will ring for days.  I speak
from experience here.


I don't want him nuked, I want him to be honest.  The junk mail has
been much more interesting than the promised catalog.  If I'd known
what I was going to get, I wouldn't have hesitated.  I wouldn't be
surprised if there were other folks who looked at the ad and said
"nope" but who would be very interested in the junk mail that results.
Similarly, there are people who wanted the advertised catalog who
aren't happy with the junk they got instead.

The folks buying the mailing lists would prefer an honest ad, and
so would the people reading it.

-andy


Since the DC-X is to take off horizontal, why not land that way??
Why do the Martian Landing thing..  Or am I missing something.. Don't know to
much about DC-X and such.. (overly obvious?).

Why not just fall to earth like the russian crafts?? Parachute in then...

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked


That still doesn't mean we should cheer their deaths.  Policemen are also in
the line of fire and their job includes the possibility of getting killed.
Should we be happy when they die?  As I said before, the question is not
whether or not you agree with the policies of Israel.  You may wish for the
Israelis to cease occupation, but don't rejoice in death.


A word of warning, though:  Kryptonite also sells almost useless cable
locks under the Kryptonite name.

When I obtained my second motorcycle, I migrated one of my Kryptonite
U-locks from my bicycle to the new bike.  I then went out shopping for
a new lock for the bicycle.

For about the same money ($20) I had the choice of a Kryptonite cable lock
(advantages: lock front and back wheels on bicycle and keep them both,
Kryptonite name) or a cheesy no-name U-lock (advantages: real steel).
I chose the Kryptonite cable.  After less than a week, I took it back in
disgust and exchanged it for the cheesy no-name U-lock.

First, the Krypto cable I bought is not made by Kryptonite, is not covered by
the Kryptonite guarantee, and doesn't even approach Kryptonite standards of
quality and quality assurance.  It is just some generic made-in-Taiwan cable
lock with the Kryptonite name on it.

Secondly, the latch engagement mechanism is something of a joke.  I
don't know if mine was a particularly poor example, but it was often
quite frustrating to get the latch to positively engage, and sometimes
it would seem to engage, only to fall open when I went to unlock it.

Thirdly, the lock has a little plastic door on the keyway which serves
the sole purpose of frustrating any attempt to insert the key in the
dark.  I didn't try it (obviously), but I have my doubts that the
lock mechanism would stand up to an "insert screwdriver and TORQUE"
attack.

Fourthly, the cable was not, in my opinion, of sufficient thickness to
deter theft (for my piece of crap bicycle, that is).  All cables suffer the
weakness that they can be cut a few strands at a time.  If you are patient
you can cut cables with fingernail clippers.  Aviation snips would go
through the cable in well under a minute.

--


Bill Burns was looking for a description of the differnces  between the
Catholic and Lutheran churches.

I'd recommend Prof. William Whalen's book "Separated Brethren".  It's
an overview of common US denominations, intended for a Catholic
audience.


Any lunar satellite needs fuel to do regular orbit corrections, and when
its fuel runs out it will crash within months.  The orbits of the Apollo
motherships changed noticeably during lunar missions lasting only a few
days.  It is *possible* that there are stable orbits here and there --
the Moon's gravitational field is poorly mapped -- but we know of none.

Perturbations from Sun and Earth are relatively minor issues at low
altitudes.  The big problem is that the Moon's own gravitational field
is quite lumpy due to the irregular distribution of mass within the Moon.


Sure nails can be cruel.  I'd imagine nails in your eyes would be
*very* painful.  But, this does not imply that a painless death is
cruel, which is what you are supposed to be trying to show.


Try this:  flip your mouse over, and open up the cover that holds the
mouse ball in place.  Remove the ball, and inside you should see
(probably) 3 rollers.  If any of the rollers have a tiny layer of
caked-on dirt, dust, or otherwise unidentifiable scum on them, carefully
scrape it off with a small knife (Xacto works great).  *Be Careful*
You do not want to gauge the rollers, just clean off the dirt.
Put the ball back in, put the cover on, and there you are.

I clean a couple of dozen of these every month here.  Another symptom
is that when you move the mouse, it seems to "click" along.  If this
doesn't solve your problem, at least you have a clean mouse.  I highly
recommend using a proper _soft_ mouse pad, and if you are a clean freak,
place it in your drawer every night or when you don't use it to keep
the dust off.

Personally I prefer track balls.  Oh, which brings me to another point:
if your mouse or trackball tracks optically, and the sunlight is
streaming through the window onto your mouse/trackball, you may notice
that it will stop working.  If this happens to you, close the curtains
or blinds, or simply shade your pointing device, and see if that helps.


The existence of the weapon in and of itself (and this is also
true for biologics and chemical weapons, but for slightly different
reasons) poses a threat to living critters.  Can you say "neutron
and other radiation flux due to radioactive decay", boys and girls?


/ iftccu:talk.politics.guns / hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays) /  3:31 pm  Apr 13, 1993 /

Good point, Kirk.

He's still around too.  He's responded by email to a couple of my posts,
and gosh darn, he's gotten down right civil!  This happed about the time
he got his first firearm.  Wonder if there is a relationship here?  Turns
out that MOST people (at least the ones who are not criminals to start
with) act responsibility once given the chance.


Yo, Whaz up!!!

Earlier, I was reading on the net about using Splitfire plugs.  One
guy was thinking about it and almost everybody shot him to hell.  Well,
I saw one think that someone said about "Show me a team that used Split-
fires...."  Well, here's some additional insight and some theories
about splitfire plugs and how they boost us as oppossed to cages.

Splitfires were originally made to burn fuel more efficiently and
increased power for the 4x4 cages.  Well, for these guys, splitfires
increased performance by increasing TORQUE.  They weren't focusing
on horsepower numbers.

Now how does this related to us high performance pilots?  Well, that
depends.  Do you pilot a high performance 2- or 4-cylinder machine?
In the case of 4-cylinders, splitfires would increase overall torque,
but 4's make more top end horsepower with its torque packed down low.
So for 4's, splitfires would not significantly increase power.

But what about twins?...  Many of you 4 guys laugh at some of us twins,
but many times we carry less weight which sometimes can make up for
the hp loss (see Doug Polen vs. Scott Russell, Daytona 1992).  However,
twins make more torque thoughout their powerbands.   So how does this
translate?  Increased torque should "theoretically" help twins make
more power.  Splitfire claims that there should be not extra mods
or anything made, just stick 'em in.

Now I don't know about all of this (and I'm trying to catch up with
somebody about it now), but Splitfires should help twins more than
4's.

As far as racing teams....  Ducati team "Fast by Ferraci" used
splitfires in the 1989 season (this is when they had Jamie James
running for em), but I don't know why they stopped since then.
Also, somebody check to see if they had them in 88.....

Peace.

Warren
wcd82671@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Have Suzuki, will travel..."

At a local "fix-er-up-er" shop, the bike repairest looked at a
dumped ZX-7.  Then he asked the guy...

"What happened..."   "I dumped the clutch..."
"How fast..."        "Pretty fast..."
"Insurance..."       "Nope."

The fixer smiled.....


April 16, 1993

INITIAL EFF ANALYSIS OF CLINTON PRIVACY AND SECURITY PROPOSAL

The Clinton Administration today made a major announcement on
cryptography policy which will effect the privacy and security of
millions of Americans.  The first part of the plan is to begin a
comprehensive inquiry into major communications privacy issues such as
export controls which have effectively denied most people easy access to
robust encryption, and law enforcement issues posed by new technology.

However, EFF is very concerned that the Administration has already
reached a conclusion on one critical part of the inquiry, before any
public comment or discussion has been allowed.  Apparently, the
Administration is going to use its leverage to get all telephone
equipment vendors to adopt a voice encryption standard developed by the
National Security Agency.  The so-called "Clipper Chip" is an 80-bit,
split key escrowed encryption scheme which will be built into chips
manufactured by a military contractor.  Two separate escrow agents would
store users' keys, and be required to turn them over law enforcement upon
presentation of a valid warrant.  The encryption scheme used is to be
classified, but the chips will be available to any manufacturer for
incorporation into its communications products.

     This proposal raises a number of serious concerns .

First, the Administration has adopted a solution before conducting an
inquiry.  The NSA-developed Clipper Chip may not be the most secure
product. Other vendors or developers may have better schemes.
Furthermore, we should not rely on the government as the sole source for
the Clipper or any other chips.  Rather, independent chip manufacturers
should be able to produce chipsets based on open standards.

Second, an algorithm cannot be trusted unless it can be tested. Yet, the
Administration proposes to keep the chip algorithm classified.  EFF
believes that any standard adopted ought to be public and open.  The
public will only have confidence in the security of a standard that is
open to independent, expert scrutiny.

Third, while the use of the use of a split-key, dual escrowed system may
prove to be a reasonable balance between privacy and law enforcement
needs, the details of this scheme must be explored publicly before it is
adopted.  What will give people confidence in the safety of their keys?
Does disclosure of keys to a third party waive an individual's Fifth
Amendment rights in subsequent criminal inquiries?  These are but a few
of the many questions the Administrations proposal raised but fails to
answer.

In sum, the Administration has shown great sensitivity to the importance
of these issues by planning a comprehensive inquiry into digital privacy
and security.  However, the "Clipper Chip" solution ought to be
considered as part of the inquiry, and not be adopted before the
discussion even begins.

DETAILS OF THE PROPOSAL:

ESCROW

The 80-bit key will be divided between two escrow agents, each of whom
hold 40-bits of each key.  The manufacturer of the communications device
would be required to register all keys with the two independent escrow
agents.  A key is tied to the device, however, not the person using it.

Upon presentation of a valid court order, the two escrow agents would
have to turn the key parts over to law enforcement agents.  According to
the Presidential Directive just issued, the Attorney General will be
asked to identify appropriate escrow agents.  Some in the Administration
have suggested that one non-law enforcement federal agency (perhaps the
Federal Reserve), and one non-governmental organization could be chosen,
but there is no agreement on the identity of the agents yet.

CLASSIFIED ALGORITHM AND THE POSSIBILITY OF BACK DOORS

The Administration claims that there are no back doors -- means by which
the government or others could break the code without securing keys from
the escrow agents -- and that the President will be told there are no
back doors to this classified algorithm.  In order to prove this,
Administration sources are interested in arranging for an all-star crypto
cracker team to come in, under a security arrangement, and examine the
algorithm for trap doors.  The results of the investigation would then be
made public.

The Clipper Chipset was designed and is being produced and a sole-source,
secret contract between the National Security Agency and two private
firms:  VLSI and Mycotronx.  NSA work on this plan has been underway for
about four years.  The manufacturing contract was let 14 months ago.

GOVERNMENT AS MARKET DRIVER

In order to get a market moving, and to show that the government believes
in the security of this system, the feds will be the first big customers
for this product.  Users will include the FBI, Secret Service, VP Al
Gore, and maybe even the President.  At today's Commerce Department press
briefing, a number of people asked this question, though:  why would any
private organization or individual adopt a classified standard that had
no independent guaranty of security or freedom from trap doors?

COMPREHENSIVE POLICY INQUIRY

The Administration has also announced that it is about to commence an
inquiry into all policy issues related to privacy protection, encryption,
and law enforcement.  The items to be considered include:  export
controls on encryption technology and the FBI's Digital Telephony
Proposal.  It appears that the this inquiry will be conducted by the
National Security Council.  Unfortunately, however, the Presidential
Directive describing the inquiry is classified.  Some public involvement
in the process has been promised, but they terms have yet to be specified.

FROM MORE INFORMATION CONTACT:

Jerry Berman, Executive Director (jberman@eff.org)
Daniel J. Weitzner, Senior Staff Counsel (djw@eff.org)

Full text of the Press releases and Fact Sheets issued by the
Administration will be available on EFF's ftp site.


(1)           Uniden 40 Channel CB Transceiver,  Model Pro 710e.

   This is a home base unit, with connectors for external speaker and
   PA speaker. 3.5"x3" internal speaker, chanel 9/10 button, NB/ANL/PA
   selector buttons, Volume, Squelch, RF Gain, Tone and Mic Gain controls,
   Comes with Mic.  Side mount for mic.  measures 14"x8"x3". Plugs into
   110v.  Black

   Like new. (actually brand new)      Asking $105, shipping included

(2)         Midland International Model 77-101C, 40 chanel, car unit

    This one is well used. black w/silver front. comes with mic, power
    cord for 12v cigarette lighter socket,  gutter mount antena is also
    included (easy to install and remove).
                                           Asking $45, shipping included

    Or both for $130, including shipping.  The Uniden alone is about
    $150 in Kmart.  These two will work nicely together, have one in
    the garage and one in your truck.


                                                               ^^^^^

I'm curious why you think that particular adjective is important.


Not completly true.  For AT class and later machines, IRQ5 is
reserved for LPT2.  Since it's rare to have a second parallel
port in a PC, it's usually a good safe choice if you need an
interrupt.

On the other hand, we just ran into a problem with that here
at work on a Gateway computer (4DX-33V).  It has a Modem on COM1,
a Mouse on COM2, and the other serial port was set to COM3 (which
normally uses the same interrupt as COM1).  We had a real fight
with a board when trying to use IRQ5, and discoverd the problem
was that Gateway had set it up such that COM3 used IRQ5.  As soon
as we disabled COM3, our problems went away.  Grumble ... after
several days of trying to figure out why the interrupt didn't work.


If anyone has Joe Venuti's record "Fiddle on Fire" and would like to sell it
please contact me.


Seems to me folks, that if you are so interested in acquiring CNN, just
buy your $1000 worth of stock today.  It's being traded everyday.  After you
own your piece, we can work on the proxy votes later.  It's probably even a
good investment.


I envision incorporation of new standart into
various communication systems, thus making it prevalent on the market &
therefore cheap. The way to do that may be detaching crypto chip from
communication equipment. It seems logical to provide Clipper chip
to the end-user not as a part of phone, fax, modem & like but in the
form of smart-card compatible with various telecomm. products. Banks
will encourage extensive use of new cards to make transactions by phone.
Natural step will be to cross-reference this card to the person in the
government databases - or else this new version of "wiretap proposal"
make no sence at all; one wish to eavesdrop (spell.) on the particular
person, not on the particular modem or phone.

As a side note, I disagree with one poster, who said he won't care about
ability of the government to eavesdrop, since they can do that now
anyway. Clipper will take away electronic survelliance from citizens,
making it monopoly of the government. May be, we can find examples when
interceptions made by (unauthorised) people uncovered crimes of
state officials ?

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      For PGP2.1 public key finger mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu


We have a program written with X11R5 and Motif 1.2.1.  It runs fine on the Sun
X11R5 server and MacX.  When that program is run under the Sparc 2 and the
OW server, the program crashed itself along with the server.  It crashed before
the first window had showed up.

I got the following error from X.
XIO:  fatal IO error 32 (Broken pipe) on X server "perot:0.0"
      after 62 requests (59 known processed) with 0 events remaining.
      The connection was probably broken by a server shutdown or KillClient.

I have run the program with xmon and below is the last twenty lines or so from
xmon before both the program and server crashed.

           ............REQUEST: GetProperty
                        delete: False
                        window: WIN 00900001
                      property: ATM 00000074
                          type: ATM 00000074
                   long-offset: 00000000
                                        ..............REPLY: GetProperty
                                                     format: 00
                                                       type: <NONE>
                                                bytes-after: 00000000
           ............REQUEST: GetInputFocus
                                        ..............REPLY: GetInputFocus
                                                  revert-to: Parent
                                                      focus: WIN 0040000d
           ............REQUEST: ChangeProperty
                          mode: Replace
                        window: WIN 00900001
                      property: ATM 00000074
                          type: ATM 00000074
                        format: 08
                          data: 42 00 00 01 00 00 00 10 00 00 00 75 00 00 00 00
           ............REQUEST: GetInputFocus

Please email to me if you have any idea of the above problem.
Thanks in advance.


According to what others have told me, the ST-296N is difficult to run at
the 1:1 interleave even though Seagate claims it.  I have a non-pc system
(don't ask what it is, you probably haven't heard of it) that is built
around SCSI and it can't do 1:1, either.

                                        Brian
                           ( bcwhite@sunee.uwaterloo.ca )


THE WHITE HOUSE

                  Office of the Press Secretary
                  (Vancouver, British Columbia)
_________________________________________________________________
For Immediate Release                               April 4, 1993

                PRESS CONFERENCE BY THE PRESIDENT
                        WITH RUSSIAN PRESS

                           Canada Place
                   Vancouver, British Columbia

2:46 P.M. PDT

	     Q	  I had two questions for both Presidents, so you
could probably answer for Boris, too.  (Laughter.)

	     THE PRESIDENT:  I'll give you my answer, then I'll
give you Yeltsin's answer.  (Laughter.)

	     Q	  The first is that this is the meeting of the
Presidents, so the money that's being promised is government
money, and naturally it's going to be distributed through the
government.  But you've indicated that three-quarters are going
to be going to businesses.  So the question is how the Russian
businesses themselves are going to be consulted, if ever?  What
are the priorities, because there are several association of
Russian businessmen existing already, so will they be invited to
participate in setting up priorities for investment?

	     This is the first.  And second, to you.  We know
that polls, public polls in America do not show that Americans
are very enthusiastic about giving this aid.  Like Newsweek polls
say that about 75 percent don't approve it, and New York Times
published that 52 percent support if it just prevents civil war;
42 percent if it fosters democratic reform; and only 29 percent
if it just personally supports Yeltsin.  How are you going to
sort of handle this problem that Americans themselves are not
very enthusiastic?  Thank you.

	     Q	  I have a question, I'm sorry -- is there going
to be a translation of everything into Russian?  No, just the
answers.  Just the answers.  Okay.

	     THE PRESIDENT:  The answer to the first question is,
it depends on what kind of aid we're discussing.  For example,
the funds that will be set up for financing new businesses will
obviously go to those businesses who apply and who seem to be
good risks and make the application.  The privatization fund will
be used to support the privatization of existing public
enterprises.  Then there are some other general funds in the
Democracy Corps and other things which people in Russia will have
some influence over the distribution of.

	     With regard to your second question, let me say that
I would think that there would be people in both countries who
would not feel too warmly toward simply the American government
giving money to the Russian government.  There's opposition to
that in Russia.  And in our country, throughout our whole history
there has been an opposition to foreign aid of all kinds.  That
is, this has nothing to do with Russia.  If you look at the whole
history of America, any kind of aid program has always been
unpopular.

	     What I have tried to tell the American people is, is
this is not an aid program, this is an investment program; that
this is an investment in our future.  We spent $4 trillion --
trillion -- on armaments on soldiers and other investments
because of the Cold War.  Now, with a democratic government in
Russia, with the newly independent states, the remainder of them
working on a democracy and struggling to get their economies
going, it seems to me very much in our interest to make it
possible to do whatever we can for democracy to survive, for the
economy of Russia to grow because of the potential for trade and
investment there, and for us to continue the effort to reduce
nuclear weapons and other elements of hostility on both sides, on
our side and on the Russian side.

	     So I don't see this as an aid program; this is an
investment for the United States.  This is very much in the
interest of the United States.  The things I announced today, the
second stage of the program, which I hope to put together next
week, in my view are things that are good for my country and for
the taxpayers and workers of my country.

	     Russia is a very great nation that needs some
partnership now, some common endeavor with other people who share
her goals.  But it would be a great mistake for anyone to view
this as some sort of just a charity or an aid issue.  That's not
what it is, it's an investment for America and it's a wonderful
investment.

	     Like all investments, there is some risk.  But
there's far less risk with a far greater potential of return than
the $4 trillion we spent looking at each other across the barrier
of the Cold War.

	     Q	  Mr. President, first of all thank you very
much, indeed, for coming here and talking to us.  In the memory
of the living correspondents, this is the first time an American
President is doing this to the Russian press corps, so it's kind
of a very measured breakthrough.

	     I have two questions.  One, in your introductory
remarks of the other press conference, you mentioned in brief
that you discussed the START II and START I issues.  Could you
tell us:  Did you reach an agreement with President Yeltsin as to
what might be done in order to have Ukraine join the ratification
of START I and the NPT regime?  And my second question is, how
confident you are that the United States Congress would be eager
to support you in lifting Jackson-Vanik and other restrictions
inherited from the Cold War?

	     PRESIDENT CLINTON:  First, we discussed the issue of
Ukraine with regard to START I and NPT, and generally, with
regard to the need to proceed to have the other independent
states all be non-nuclear; but also to have the United States
develop strong relationships with them.  We know that one thing
that we could do that would increase, I think, the willingness of
the Ukraine to support this direction is to successfully conclude
our own negotiations on highly enriched uranium, because that
would provide not only an important economic opportunity for
Russia, but also for Ukraine, and it would show some reaching out
on our part.  But we agreed that basically the people who signed
off on the Lisbon Protocol have got to honor what they did, and
we agreed to continue to press that.

	     I, myself, have spent a good deal of time trying to
reassure Ukraine's leaders, specifically the President and the
Foreign Minister, that I want strong ties with Ukraine, that the
United States very much wants a good relationship with Ukraine,
but that, in order to do what we need to do together to
strengthen the economy of Ukraine and to have the United States
be fully supportive, the commitment to ratify START I and to join
the NPT regime is critical.

	     What was the second question?

	     THE PRESIDENT:  With regard to Jackson-Vanik and
COCOM, I would make two points:  First, I have agreed with the
Republican and Democratic leaders in the Congress that we will,
as soon as I return, have a list of all the legislative and other
restrictions, some of them are regulatory in nature, imposed on
relations between the United States and Russia, that are legacies
of the Cold War.  And we will see whether they're -- how many of
them we could agree to do away with right now, at least among the
leadership of the Congress.

	     With regard to Jackson-Vanik, I think there will be
an openness to change the law if the Congress is convinced there
are, in fact, no more refusniks, no more people who wish to
emigrate who are not being allowed to.  If the fact is that there
is no one there who would have been -- who the law was designed
to affect, then I think that the desire to keep the law will be
much less.

	     With regard to COCOM, my guess is, and it's nothing
more than a guess, that the leadership of Congress and indeed my
own advisers, might prefer to see some sort of phased movement
out of the COCOM regime.  But I think they would be willing to
begin it in the fairly near future.

	     Q	  Mr. Clinton, when I read your speech in
Annapolis, I got the impression that you have a completely
different personal -- and I stress that -- personal, not
political approach towards Russia, compared to the approach of
Mr. Bush.  Could you formulate in a few words, what is the
difference between you as a personality and your approach -- the
difference between your approach to Russia and the approach of
Mr. Bush?  And who made you -- why did you cite Akhmatova in the
last part of your speech?

	     THE PRESIDENT:  Let me say, first, I do not wish to
compare myself with President Bush or anyone else.  I can't say
what was in his heart about Russia.  I can say that since I was a
boy, I have been personally fascinated with the history, the
music and the culture, and the literature of Russia.  I have been
thrilled by Russian music since I was a serious student of music
for more than 30 years now.  I have read major Russian novelists
and many of your poets and followed your ballet and tried to know
as much as I could about your history.

	     And I went to the Soviet Union -- but it was then
the Soviet Union -- you may know it was a big issue in the last
presidential campaign that I spent the first week of 1970 alone
in Moscow and did not return again until three days before Mr.
Yeltsin was elected President.  But all that time I was away, I
was following events there very closely and hoping for the day
when we could be genuine partners.  So I have always had a
personal feeling about Russia.

	     I remember, for example -- a lot of you know I like
music very much.  One of the most moving experiences for me as a
musician was when Leonard Bernstein took the New York
Philharmonic to Moscow and played Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony
to the Russians.  And he played the last movement more rapidly
than anyone had ever played it before because it was technically
so difficult.  That is something I followed very closely when it
occurred.

	     These are things that have always had a big impact
on my life.  And I had just always hoped that someday, if I ever
had the chance to, I could play a role in seeing our two
countries become closer partners.  (Applause.)

	     THE PRESS:  Thank you.


Here's a simple way to convert the Clipper proposal to an unexceptionable
one: Make it voluntary.

That is--you get high quality secure NSA classified technology if you agree
to escrow your key. Otherwise you are on your own.

David


Gregg, I'm really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice
things aren't quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim
them to be upsets you, but exactly who is being childish here is
open to question.

BBCI was an example of an Islamically owned and operated bank -
what will someone bet me they weren't "real" Islamic owners and
operators? - and yet it actually turned out to be a long-running
and quite ruthless operation to steal money from small and often
quite naive depositors.

And why did these naive depositors put their life savings into
BCCI rather than the nasty interest-motivated western bank down
the street?   Could it be that they believed an Islamically owned
and operated bank couldn't possibly cheat them?

So please don't try to con us into thinking that it will all
work out right next time.


The above does not tell the proper story of SCSI:
SCSI-I: 8-bit asynchronous {~1.5MB/s ave}, synchronous {5MB/s max} transfer
base.
SCSI-1{faster} this requires a SCSI-2 controller chip and provides
 SCSI-2 {8-bit to 16-bit} speeds with SCSI-1 controlers.
SCSI-2: 4-6MB/s with 10MB/s burst{8-bit}, 8-12MB/s with 20MB/s burst {16-bit},
and 15-20MB/s with 40MB/s burst{32-bit/wide and fast}.  16-bit SCSI can be
wide or fast, it depends on how the port is designed{The Quadras will support
fast SCSI but not wide when the OS SCSI manager is rewritten since the
Quardas use a SCSI-1 {non-wide} port}.

The article in PC Mag 4/27/93:29 was talking about SCSI-1 {SCSI-2 uses
TEN (10) devices in it native mode, outside its native mode it behaves a
lot like SCSI-1 (7 devices, slower through put}

From your own figures SCSI-1 is indeed twice ESDI as the article pointed out
as for "20% faster then IDE" that seems to be 8-bit SCSI-1 using a SCSI-2
contoler chip {The Mac Quadra uses a SCSI-2 controler chip for its SCSI-1
and gets 6MB/s through put for asynchronous {8-bit} SCSI-1, far in excess of a
normal SYNCHRONOUS SCSI-1 output} 120% of 8.3 is 9.96 which is near
the burst of a SCSI-1 machine with a SCSI-2 controller chip.

The PC world seems to have SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 mixed up.  Fact is SCSI-2
controler chips allow near SCSI-2 speeds through a SCSI-1 device
{As shown in the Mac Quadra} which skews some of the data of SCSI-1 vs
IDE or ESDI test. I agree that the article COULD have stated that the "20%
faster then IDE" came off a SCSI-1 device with a SCSI-2 chip.  Maybe it
was there and the EDITOR killed it because the article was dealing with
SCSI-1 NOT SCSI-2 and he did not understand the effect of a SCSI-1 device
with a SCSI-2 controller chip.
SCSI-1 chips are limited to 5/MB max.  SCSI-1 devices with SCSI-2 chips
{becoming common} produce up to 10Mb/s in 8-bit mode and 20MB/s in 16-bit
mode {the fast version, SCSI-1 ports cannot use wide SCSI}.  Of cource
the prime piece of wierdness is that SCSI-1 devices HAVE SCSI-2 chips
{or more accurately the machine does}. This allows the best of BOTH
worlds: high SCSI-2 speeds and cheeper SCSI-1 costs {FULL SCSI-2 hardware
(port, electronic controller, etc) is VERY expensive.  It ALSO creates
a logistic NIGHTMARE as to how fast SCSI-1 goes.


Having been gone for 10 days, I'm way behind on my News reading, so many
pardons if I am repeating something that has been said already.

I read a good book while I was away, THE ANTIBIOTIC PARADOX: HOW MIRACLE DRUGS
ARE DESTROYING THE MIRACLE, Stuart B. Levy, M.D., 1992, Plenum Press,
ISBN:0-306-44331-7.

It is about drug resistant microorganisms & the history of antibiotics.  It
is interesting & written at a level which I think many sci.med readers would
appreciate -- which is:  it assumes an intelligent reader who is capable of
understanding scientific concepts, but who may not yet have been exposed to
this particular information. I.e., it assumes you are smart enough to
understand it, but it does not assume that you already have a degree in
microbiology or medicine. Table of contents:

Chapter 1
	From Tragedy the Antibiotic Age is Born
Chapter 2
	The Disease and the Cure:  The Microscopic World of Bacteria and
	Antibiotics
Chapter 3
	Reliance on Medicine and Self-Medication: The Seeds of Antibiotic
	Misuse
Chapter 4
	Antibiotic Resistance:  Microbial Adaptation and Evolution
Chapter 5
	The Antibiotic Myth
Chapter 6
	Antibiotics, Animals and the Resistance Gene Pool
Chapter 7
	Further Ecological Considerations:  Antibiotic Use in Agriculture,
	Aquaculture, Pets, and Minor Animal Species
Chapter 8
	Future Prospects:  New Advances Against Potential Disaster
Chapter 9
	The Individual and Antibiotic Resistance
Chapter 10
	Antibiotic Resistance: A Societal Issue at Local, National, and
	International Levels.

Includes bibliography and index.

I personally found that it made very good Airplane-Reading.
-rg


Oh, excuse me for wasting the bandwidth, but I was referring to
the original incident, not the recent skirmish which occurred
this past month.