Not particularly *in* the World Series. During the season, he was probably
more valuable than, say, putting Olerud out there to pitch, but yeah, he
*was* valuable in getting them there. In the postseason, he sucked dirty
canal water through a straw. The Jays won *in spite* of Morris much more
than *because of* him.

Umm, Roger? Return with us to those halcyon days of a few postings ago,
where the poster Valentine was replying to used # of WS rings as a measure
of better. The concept is called "context", and you should really become
familiar with it someday.

Unless this transaltes to "Clemens hasn't gone into Lou Gorman's office with
a large caliber handgun and refused to come out until he'd been traded to
the Jays," I'm at a complete loss as to any possible meaning for it.

What on earth does this mean? Over their careers, Clemens has "won" 68% of
the games he's started, Morris 58%. Per year, Clemens has averaged nearly 17
wins, Morris just under 15. Would you grant the proposition that preventing
the other team from scoring increases your chances of winning  a game? If
so, then consider that Clemens allows 2.8 runs/9 innings pitched. Morris
allows nearly a run more per nine innings. In fact, Jack Morris has never in
his career had an ERA for a single year as good as Clemens' career ERA. But
I forget, in the Maynardverse there was obviously some mystical significance
to Buckner missing that grounder in 1986; had Morris been on the Sox, it
would have been a routine groundout, right?

Speaking of stupid, it has been patiently (and not-so-patiently) explained to
you many times that attributing greatness to players based on the
accomplishments of their teams makes about as much sense as claiming that
a racecar has the most attractive paint job because it won the race. Your
continued failure to not only understand but even to intelligently reply to
any of the arguments presented leads me to the conclusion that you must have
spent a few too many games in goal without a mask.

No one is crying; the Jays won, and as a team they certainly deserved to win
at least the AL East. They performed well in two short series and won the
World Series, and I congratulate them for it. As a Red Sox fan, I hope they
keep Morris. I was happy when they picked up Stewart, and elated when they
traded for Darrin Jackson. You see, unless you believe in some mystical link
between Morris and the offense, you can hardly help but believe that the man
was credited with so many wins last year because he got lucky. Luck runs
out, just like it did in 1982 when he pitched 50-odd more innings than 1992,
gave up exactly *one* earned run more than in 1992, and went 17-16.

Seriously, Roger, I'd really like to hear your explanation of the difference
between the 1982 Morris and the 1992 Morris. Which one was a better pitcher,
and why? Did Morris somehow "learn how to win" in the intervening ten years?
If so, then why did he go 18-12 in 1991 with Minnesota with an ERA over half
a run lower than 1992?

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com


Joni Ciarletta writes

You are not alone.  My '79 Honda Accord with 110,000 miles on it started
showing the same behavior.

I replaced the brake master cylinder myself.  It took about an hour and cost
about $45.  Sure beats paying $300 to have someone else do it!  If I wanted to
rebuild my own master cylinder instead of putting in a rebuilt one, it would
have cost only $20 to $30 for the rebuild kit.

The Honda brake master cylinder is easy to get to.  Two bolts attach it to the
engine compartment.  Two brake lines enter the master cylinder.  The tricky
part was that the brake lines were stuck tight.  My Craftsmen open end wrench
rounded off the bolt heads!  I had to use Vise Grips to loosen those suckers.
Wow!  Best invention since sliced bread.  After that it was very easy.  Bolt
the new part in place, add new brake fluid, and bleed the brakes.


Yes, but in a fairly reproducible way. -40 is only a smidgen of the
distance to absolute zero. And in any case you're going to have to
borrow freezer space from a bio lab or someone to test/calibrate this
darling anyway. Btw, you're probably going to want those big capacitors
you found to fire the solenoid -- High current drain on frozen batteries
can be an ugly thing.


They'd probably quote Montesque (sp?) who was once asked if Russia
was likely to become a democracy any time soon: "No, because
Russia is a nation of slaves and the people get what they deserve."
Since he said that, Russia has changed a great deal. But so,
unfortunately have other nations.


Storage space for sale:

    Iomega 44 MB removeable HD for sale w/ 16 cartridges.

    Total storage space comes out to be about 750 MB.  6 cartridges still in
    original shrinkwrapping, unused.  Note:  this is NOT compatible with
    SysQuest 45 cartridges.

    SCSI interface required... plugs right into the back of Macintoshes,
    but I don't have a controller for the IBM.  All utilities I have for it
    are for the Mac.  If you have a Mac, then this is for you!  I have a
    ton of software on these disks that I don't use anymore, because I sold
    my mac system.  Stuff included:  Most of the PD stuff from info-mac
    site, LOTS of GIF's, and LOTS of sound effects.  (1 entire disk with
    just sounds)

    I am asking $900 for all, plus shipping.

    For more information, send me mail (cxs2341@ultb.isc.rit.edu) or call
    (716) 427-0701... ask for Sawran

    cheers


Sooner than you expect. Remember 'Cyprus'?

Too bad. In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established
a vast network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two
continents. Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and
Waffen-SS in Russia and Western Europe. Armenians were involved in
espionage and fifth-column activities for Hitler in the Balkans and
Arabian Peninsula. They were promised an 'independent' state under
German 'protection' in an agreement signed by the 'Armenian National
Council.' (A copy of this agreement can be found in the 'Congressional
Record,' November 1, 1945; see Document 1.) On this side of the Atlantic,
Nazi Armenians were aware of their brethrens alliance. They had often
expressed pro-Nazi sentiments until America entered the war. In summary,
during World War II Armenians were carried away with the German might and
cringing and fawning over the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication
in Germany, Hairenik, carried statements as follows:[1]

"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
 when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it
 becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
 method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
 operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing."

Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews -
extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published
in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian.

 "...We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities
  against our people (Jews)...Members of our family witnessed the
  murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian
  neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish
  and/or Muslim. Armenians should look to their own history and see
  the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors...
  Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise
  to grant them self government if, in return, the Armenians would
  help exterminate Jews...Armenians were also hearty proponents of
  the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists. Mr. Amarian!
  I don't need your bias."

  Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.

[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
    Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
    June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.

Serdar Argic


I made a mistake on the posted article [been fighting food
poisoning for last 24 hours...]

The second paragraph should state the following...

"Doctors cleared Sandberg to swing a padded bat at a ball
on a tee and to catch a ball in his gloved hand."

Sorry for the error, didn't know it until after posting.


I have lurked here a bit lately, and though some of the math is
unknown to me, found it interesting. I thought I would post an article I
found in the Saturday, April 17, 1993 Toronto Star:

                  'CLIPPER CHIP' to protect privacy

   Washington (REUTER) - President Bill CLinton announced yesterday a
plan to plant a new "Clipper Chip" in every government telephone and
computer line to prevent eavesdropping.

   Eventually the chips, developed by the government's National
Institute for Standards and Technology, would be used by commercial and
private electronics communication users.

   The White House said that to assure privacy, each device containing
the encryption devices would be assigned two unique "keys" - numbers
that will be needed by government agencies to decode messages.

   The attorney-general has been assigned the task of arranging that the
keys are deposited in two "key-escrow" data bases. Access to them would
be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a
wiretap, the White House said in a statement.

                              -30-

 Dan McKinnon


If anyone gets the New York Times, the Edit page has a transcript
of a VHS from Hams describing their methods of torture and
execution. I will post it later on.


Sony D-22 portable Diskman forsale

      Good condition, flawless.

      Costomer AC adapter : 6v DC power supply ( tested 9v DC)

       * The factory adapter was tested 12v DC (AC 110v input) at the
         time I bought it three years ago. When using it, a lot of heat
         was generated inside the CD machine. Of course I wouldn't use
         it to risk this baby's life. Maybe that's why so many owners
         always complain about their portable machine going kaput after
         a short time usage.

       * 9v DC factory suggested

      LED display


It seemed pretty conclusive to me.  The puck clearly hit the crossbar
and then came down on the line.  And the announcers, admittedly homers,
kept harping about how they "must have had a different view upstairs"
because it was obvious to them, and, I would have thought, to anyone who
saw the replay, that the puck didn't go in.  The referee originally
signalled no goal but the video replay "judges" initiated contact with
the referee to claim that a goal was in fact scored.  This, to me, is
unheard of.  Seeing stuff like this happen gives me a bad feeling about
the Leaf chances this year.

cordially, as always,

rm


Jews won't agree with you, Malcolm.

Cheers,
Kent


I've asked your god several times with all my heart to come to me.  I
really wish I could believe in him, 'cos no matter how much confidence
I build up on my own, the universe *is* a big place, and it would be
so nice to know I have someone watching over me in it...

I've gone into this with an open mind.  I've layed my beliefs aside
from time to time when I've had doubt, and I've prayed to see what
good that would do.  I don't see what more I can do to open myself to
your god, short of just deciding to believe for no good reason.  And
if I decide to believe for no good reason, why not believe in some
other god?  Zeus seems like a pretty cool candidate...

All I know is that in all my searching, even though I've set aside my
pride and decided that I want to know the truth no matter how
difficult it may be to accept, I have never had any encounter with any
deity, Christian or otherwise.

Please tell me what more I can do while still remaining true to myself.


I'll throw in a vote for a Metzler "economy" tire, the ME77. Good
for mid-size older bikes. Rated to 130mph. Wearing well and handles
my 12 mile ride(twisties) to work well on the SR500. Costs a bit
more than the Chengs/IRC's etc, but still less than the Sport
Metzlers for the newer bikes. Cost from Chaparral is about $60 for the
front, and $70 for the rear.


              (a.k.a. Serdar Argic, The Merciful and Compassionate)

[Serdar Argic's bountiful, divine, all-knowing, and footnoted
wisdom is regrettably omitted for this solemn tribute.]

WHERE CAN I JOIN THE SERDAR ARGIC FAN CLUB?  DO I GET A T-SHIRT?

--The Friendly Neighborhood Alien--


Am I justified in being pissed off at this doctor?

Last Saturday evening my 6 year old son cut his finger badly with a knife.
I took him to a local "Urgent and General Care" clinic at 5:50 pm.  The
clinic was open till 6:00 pm.  The receptionist went to the back and told the
doctor that we were there, and came back and told us the doctor would not
see us because she had someplace to go at 6:00 and did not want to be delayed
here.  During the next few minutes, in response to my questions, with several
trips to the back room, the receptionist told me:
	- the doctor was doing paperwork in the back,
	- the doctor would not even look at his finger to advise us on going
	  to the emergency room;
	- the doctor would not even speak to me;
	- she would not tell me the doctor's name, or her own name;
	- when asked who is in charge of the clinic, she said "I don't know."

I realize that a private clinic is not the same as an emergency room, but
I was quite angry at being turned away because the doctor did not want to
be bothered.  My son did get three stitches at the emergency room.  I'm still
trying to find out who is in charge of that clinic so I can write them a
letter.   We will certainly never set foot in that clinic again.


VHS movie for sale

Kevin Costner	Dances withs Wolves

Just open and was used once, $12.00 or best offer, buyer will have
to pay shipping. ($1.00 for shipping)

Let me know if you are interested, and send your offer to this
e-mail address. Koutd@hirama.hiram.edu

thanks,


Last I checked I was one person, I haven't even been elected
as a representative for "gaydom". Should I ascribe every thing
you say as representing every member of the straight community?

Thats the point. If there are several million queers in DC you had better
start wondering about the validity of the study.


Umm...  I beg to differ with the phrase ``only conceivable meaning''.
The SDNS protocols, for example, make explicit provision for multiple
encryption systems, as does PEM.  (And I'd love to see how they'd
mandate this new system for PEM without disclosing it....)


I bet it suddenly started sticking when you  started leaving the PC running the
menu all night.  There is a limitation/bug in the date roll-over software in
PC's that means you have to be doing something like waiting for keyboard input
via a DOS call rather than a BIOS call (as menus often use) otherwise the code
to update the date after midnight never gets called.

Somebody might be able to correct the details in case I've mis-rememberred
them, but I think you have to change the menu program (if you have the sources)
or add a TSR or system patch or something.  As far as I know the CMOS clock
keeps the right time (in fact about 7 seconds/day better than DOS's clock).


Taft Electronics, 45th Street between 5th & 6th -- the only one left in
what was once an entire district of electronics stores.  A little expensive.

Trans-Am Electronics, Canal Street near 7th Ave -- lots of surplus type
stuff.

Several other electronics or "surplus" type places are still on Canal
Street.

I think Bronx Wholesale Radio is still in business -- Fordham Road not
too far from Arthur Avenue in the Bronx.  Also in the Bronx is NorthEastern
(or was it Northwestern?  Northeast Electronics?) on Jerome Avenue near
Bedford Park Boulevard.  They're mostly a TV parts supply house, but when
I was building CB radio projects, they were quite handy..


I don't think so at first,  but solid state offered  better reliabity,
id bet,  and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up.


On two separate occasions I saw Dick Allen (back when he was Richie)
homer at Shea off the middle of the black centerfield hitter's
background screen.  I think both shots would have traveled 500 feet.


Please realize that I am frequently getting in trouble for
straying from orthodoxy, but here is my opinion:

I never thought of these two ideas being "against" each other.
People might quibble about what "intrinsically" means but the
reason we are sinners is because we do not behave as good as we
are. The message of Christ is that each of us are not only good,
but great, that we can approach perfection, albeit perhaps through a
different technique than you claim Buddhism teaches. Because we do
not realize our greatness, we sin. Peter had no problem walking
on water until a little doubt crept in.

Doesn't David ask in the 8th Psalm "what is man that you [God]
should care for him, but you have made him just a little lower
than the angels"?

I probably exagerate in my mind what a scrawny little kid David
was, just as I probably exagerate what a gigantic monster Goliath
was, but David's power easily defeated Goliath's.

Remember the rich young man who comes up to Jesus and asks what
he can do to enter the Kingdom, Jesus says follow the commandments.
I always picture the smug look on his face as he says he's done that
his whole life, probably anticipating an "attaboy" from the
Messiah. Instead Jesus gives him a harder task, sell everything
and follow Him. Jesus is raising the bar. The desciples say
how can anyone do this if it's so hard even for rich people.
Jesus says anyone can do it, with God's help.

Jesus says not only can we avoid killing people, we can avoid
getting angry at people. Not only can we avoid committing
adultery, we can control our own desires.

I realize this was not your main point, but I wonder how other
people see this.

(Please forgive any generalizations I am about to make.)

Your point about how "hard" other religions are is a good one, just
as your "Parting Question" is a tough question. I think that Muslims
worship the same God as I do, we can learn from their name "submission".
Hindus and Buddhists and Taoists, etc. claim that "God" is impersonal.
Is God personal or impersonal? I say yes, but if I think a little
more my answer is whichever is greater. I think it is greater
to be a personal entity, with an individual consciousness, but
you're right that that might be a cultural bias. If I think more
I must admit that God's personal nature is as far beyond my
conception as His impersonal nature is beyond the Hindu's
conception. If somehow Jesus could fit into Hindu cosmology
then maybe I wouldn't have a problem, though that is hard to imagine.

Are there any former (or present) "Eastern Religion" members here
who could comment?


I've had my Fluke 8060A here at work for just over 10 years now.
It is a wonderful meter.  Several colleagues here have some of the
newer Fluke meters, though I still would just as soon hang on to my
8060.  The 8060 a is the 1980s digial "analog" to the Simpson 260
analog DMM of the 1950-1960s.  There was/is (?) an 8060B that had
extended frequency response.

I've got a nifty little pen shaped meter made by Soar that I keep
in my toolbox at home.  I've had that for six or seven years now
and only replaced the batteries a couple of timees; it is more than
adequate for day-to-day hobby use.  I think Soar OEMs their stuff
for a number of vendors.  Some of JDR Microdevices' stuff looks
rather similar to Soar's.


Philadelphia                     1 2 4--7
Buffalo                          0 3 1--4
First period
     1, Philadelphia, Recchi 52 (Galley, Lindros) 0:18.
Second period
     2, Philadelphia, Hawgood 11 (Dineen, Eklund) pp, 2:15.
     3, Philadelphia, Dineen 33 (McGill) sh, 5:40.
     4, Buffalo, Barnaby 1 (Hawerchuk, Smehlik) pp, 7:48.
     5, Buffalo, Wood 18 (LaFontaine, Ledyard) pp, 17:34.
     6, Buffalo, Mogilny 75 (Hawerchuk, Carney) pp, 18:56.
Third period
     7, Philadelphia, Eklund 11 (Dineen, Beranek) 4:42.
     8, Buffalo, Mogilny 76 (Errey, LaFontaine) 5:24.
     9, Philadelphia, Dineen 34 (Brind'Amour) pp, 6:44.
     10, Philadelphia, Dineen 35 (Brind'Amour, Galley) sh, 8:39.
     11, Philadelphia, Acton 8 (Dineen, Brind'Amour) 19:48.

Philadelphia: 7    Power play: 5-2   Special goals:  pp: 2  sh: 2  Total: 4
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Acton              1    0    1
Beranek            0    1    1
Brind'Amour        0    3    3
Dineen             3    3    6
Eklund             1    1    2
Galley             0    2    2
Hawgood            1    0    1
Lindros            0    1    1
McGill             0    1    1
Recchi             1    0    1

Buffalo: 4    Power play: 10-3
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Barnaby            1    0    1
Carney             0    1    1
Errey              0    1    1
Hawerchuk          0    2    2
LaFontaine         0    2    2
Ledyard            0    1    1
Mogilny            2    0    2
Smehlik            0    1    1
Wood               1    0    1

-----------------------------------------
Minnesota                        1 1 1--3
Detroit                          0 2 3--5
First period
     1, Minnesota, McPhee 18 (Ludwig) 1:23.
Second period
     2, Minnesota, Dahlen 34 (Courtnall, Gagner) pp, 0:31.
     3, Detroit, Drake 18 (Howe, Ogrodnick) 9:14.
     4, Detroit, Ysebaert 34 (Lidstrom, Howe) pp, 17:37.
Third period
     5, Detroit, Ciccarelli 41 (Coffey, Chiasson) pp, 0:32.
     6, Detroit, Kennedy 19 (Burr, Probert) 3:42.
     7, Detroit, Yzerman 58 (Ciccarelli, Gallant) 6:17.
     8, Minnesota, Dahlen 35 (Courtnall, Gagner) 19:11.

Detroit: 5    Power play: 4-2
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Burr               0    1    1
Chiasson           0    1    1
Ciccarelli         1    1    2
Coffey             0    1    1
Drake              1    0    1
Gallant            0    1    1
Howe               0    2    2
Kennedy            1    0    1
Lidstrom           0    1    1
Ogrodnick          0    1    1
Probert            0    1    1
Ysebaert           1    0    1
Yzerman            1    0    1

Minnesota: 3    Power play: 2-1
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Courtnall          0    2    2
Dahlen             2    0    2
Gagner             0    2    2
Ludwig             0    1    1
McPhee             1    0    1

-----------------------------------------
Edmonton                         0 0 0--0
Winnipeg                         1 2 0--3
First period
     1, Winnipeg, Shannon 20 (Steen, Davydov) pp, 2:08.
Second period
     2, Winnipeg, Selanne 76 (Olausson) 5:25.
     3, Winnipeg, Zhamnov 25 (Selanne) 19:42.
Third period
     No scoring.

Winnipeg: 3    Power play: 6-1
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Davydov            0    1    1
Olausson           0    1    1
Selanne            1    1    2
Shannon            1    0    1
Steen              0    1    1
Zhamnov            1    0    1

Edmonton: 0    Power play: 3-0
No scoring

-----------------------------------------
Toronto                          1 1 0--2
Chicago                          0 2 1--3
First period
     1, Toronto, Baumgartner 1 (unassisted) 18:40.
Second period
     2, Chicago, Roenick 50 (Murphy, Chelios) 1:29.
     3, Toronto, Andreychuk 55 (Mironov, Lefebvre) 13:22.
     4, Chicago, Murphy 7 (Roenick, Chelios) pp, 19:05.
Third period
     5, Chicago, Matteau 15 (unassisted) 10:51.
Error: Power play goal mismatch. Assuming calc value.
Error: Team: Toronto  Calc: 0  Read: 1

Chicago: 3    Power play: 7-1
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Chelios            0    2    2
Matteau            1    0    1
Murphy             1    1    2
Roenick            1    1    2

Toronto: 2    Power play: 3-0
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Andreychuk         1    0    1
Baumgartner        1    0    1
Lefebvre           0    1    1
Mironov            0    1    1

-----------------------------------------
First period
     1, St Louis, Shanahan 50 (Brown, Felsner) 10:44.
     2, St Louis, Miller 23 (Bassen, Brown) 19:38.
     3, St Louis, Bassen 8 (Zombo) 19:48.
Second period
     4, St Louis, Bassen 9 (Hedican, Miller) 0:14.
     5, St Louis, Miller 24 (Zombo, Hedican) 11:09.
     6, Tampa Bay, Maltais 7(Hamrlik) 11:27.
     7, Tampa Bay, Bergland 3 (Hervey, Gilhen) 17:16.
     8, St Louis, Shanahan 51 (Emerson) 19:38.
Third period
     9, Tampa Bay, Creighton 19 (Bergland, Bergevin) 0:40.
     10, Tampa Bay, Chambers 10 (Zamuner, Cole) 10:37.
     11, Tampa Bay, Cole 12 (Beers, Bradley) 11:58.

St Louis: 6    Power play: 4-0
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Bassen             2    1    3
Brown              0    2    2
Emerson            0    1    1
Felsner            0    1    1
Hedican            0    2    2
Miller             2    1    3
Shanahan           2    0    2
Zombo              0    2    2

Tampa Bay: 5    Power play: 3-0
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Beers              0    1    1
Bergevin           0    1    1
Bergland           1    1    2
Bradley            0    1    1
Chambers           1    0    1
Cole               1    1    2
Creighton          1    0    1
Gilhen             0    1    1
Hamrlik            0    1    1
Hervey             0    1    1
Maltais            1    0    1
Zamuner            0    1    1

-----------------------------------------
San Jose                         0 1 2--3
Calgary                          0 4 3--7
First period
     No scoring.
Second period
     1, San Jose, Garpenlov 22 (Odgers, Gaudreau) pp, 3:37.
     2, Calgary, Nieuwendyk 38 (MacInnis, Suter) pp, 5:26.
     3, Calgary, Ranheim 21 (Otto, Suter) 10:43.
     4, Calgary, Yawney 1 (Nieuwendyk, Roberts) 11:26.
     5, Calgary, Berube 4 (Paslawski, Skrudland) 13:45.
Third period
     6, San Jose, Wood 1 (Odgers, Kisio) 8:00.
     7, Calgary, Reichel 40 (unassisted) 9:26.
     8, Calgary, Roberts 38 (Musil, Paslawski) pp, 12:27.
     9, San Jose, Kisio 26 (unassisted) 13:10.
     10, Calgary, Paslawski 18 (Ashton, Stern) 16:16.

Calgary: 7    Power play: 4-2
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Ashton             0    1    1
Berube             1    0    1
MacInnis           0    1    1
Musil              0    1    1
Nieuwendyk         1    1    2
Otto               0    1    1
Paslawski          1    2    3
Ranheim            1    0    1
Reichel            1    0    1
Roberts            1    1    2
Skrudland          0    1    1
Stern              0    1    1
Suter              0    2    2
Yawney             1    0    1

San Jose: 3    Power play: 3-1
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Garpenlov          1    0    1
Gaudreau           0    1    1
Kisio              1    1    2
Odgers             0    2    2
Wood               1    0    1

-----------------------------------------
Vancouver                        1 2 5--8
Los Angeles                      2 3 1--6
First period
     1, Los Angeles, Robitaille 63 (Gretzky, Sandstrom) 1:39.
     2, Vancouver, Babych 3 (Craven, Nedved) pp, 9:43.
     3, Los Angeles, Sandstrom 25 (Gretzky, Robitaille) 10:06.
Second period
     4, Vancouver, Linden 32 (Ronning, Courtnall) pp, 0:54.
     5, Vancouver, Ward 22 (Hunter, Nedved) 1:24.
     6, Los Angeles, Gretzky 16 (Sandstrom, Robitaille) 6:57.
     7, Los Angeles, Zhitnik 12 (Kurri, Robitaille) pp, 14:02.
     8, Los Angeles, Millen 23 (Hardy) pp, 16:57.
Third period
     9, Vancouver, Ronning 27 (Dirk) 5:28.
     10, Vancouver, Ronning 28 (Courtnall, Linden) pp, 11:15.
     11, Vancouver, Linden 33 (Courtnall, Ronning) 11:27.
     12, Los Angeles, Donnelly 29 (Millen, Granato) pp, 14:35.
     13, Vancouver, Courtnall 31 (Ronning, Ratushny) 14:54.
     14, Vancouver, Ronning 29 (Linden, Diduck) en, 18:47.

Vancouver: 8    Power play: 6-3   Special goals:  pp: 3  en: 1  Total: 4
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Babych             1    0    1
Courtnall          1    3    4
Craven             0    1    1
Diduck             0    1    1
Dirk               0    1    1
Hunter             0    1    1
Linden             2    2    4
Nedved             0    2    2
Ratushny           0    1    1
Ronning            3    3    6
Ward               1    0    1

Los Angeles: 6    Power play: 10-3
Scorer            G    A   Pts
---------------  ---  ---  ---
Donnelly           1    0    1
Granato            0    1    1
Gretzky            1    2    3
Hardy              0    1    1
Kurri              0    1    1
Millen             1    1    2
Robitaille         1    3    4
Sandstrom          1    2    3
Zhitnik            1    0    1


: In article <C4u3x5.Fw7@magpie.linknet.com> manes@magpie.linknet.com (Steve
: [...]
: > I don't know how anyone can state that gun control could have NO
: > effect on homicide rates.  There were over 250 >accidental< handgun
: > homicides in America in 1990, most with licensed weapons.  More
: > American children accidentally shot other children last year (15)
: > than all the handgun homicides in Great Britain.  (Source: National
: > Safety Council.  Please... no dictionary arguments about RATES vs
: > TOTAL NUMBERS, okay?  They're offered for emphasis, not comparison).
: >

: You're a great debater.  You chose your sources of information, claim them
: to  be superior,

I've made no such claim.  Please direct my attention towards any
posting of mine where I claimed superior sources of information.
It's probably because I bothered to post any references at all while
others seem content to post numbers pulled from the ozone, that
you've confused it with fact-twisting.  If so, I apologize.

: then take those twisted numbers and twist them further by trying

Well then, here's fair opportunity for you to prove that I've "twisted
numbers."  On what grounds do you contradict those references?  Do you have
any citations... any sources of your own that I can take similar
gratuitous shots at?

: to compare absolute numbers between two countries that have major population
: differences, the USA and GB, and then whine that you are afraid someone might
: attack your process, and so claim the numbers are for "emphasis, not
: comparison"?  Emphasis of what?

Nitpicking and scolding is a whiney debating style, Jim.

: Anything else is blowing smoke.

You seddit, brudda.


Excellent point.  I hope to God that Ted Simmons doesn't get the weird
idea of trading for the guy.  And if he does, he had better not
include Jeff King in the deal.  Oh God--what if he traded Zane Smith
and Jeff King for Vaughn and Greg Blosser?  It would be worse than The
Nichols Curse!

Hmm, I guess that doesn't sound sincere enough.  Oh well, at least I
tried...


[Please excuse me if this is inappropriate to post here, but I do not read
these groups normally and I did not see any PC related marketplace
newsgroups]

FOR SALE: Borland C++ with Application Frameworks 3.1 (Full Professional
Developer Kit)

Borland C++ Programming Package including unopened software, unopened
manuals, and registration card.

SOFTWARE INCLUDES:
1. *Still plastic wrapped* high density 5.25 inch disks for Borland C++:
	total of 18 diskettes in 2 individually wrapped packages, each
	disk has "Borland C++" and "BC++ & APP. FRAMEWORKS 3.1" on label
2. Amish System Utilities for Windows (one 5.25" high density disk):
	Amish Launch
	Amish Desk Utilities for Windows
3. Phar Lap's 286|DOS-Extender Lite Version 2.5 (one 5.25" HD disk)

MANUALS INCLUDE:
1. *Still Plastic Wrapped* Manuals include (i.e. unopened):
	A. Boland Windows API Volumes:
		I: Reference Guide
		II: Reference Guide
		III: Windows 3.1 Reference Guide
	B. Borland Turbo Debugger 3.0 User's Guide
	C. Borland Turbo Profiler 3.0 User's Guide
	D. Borland Turbo Assembler 3.0 Users Guide
	E. Borland C++ 3.1 User's Guide:
		integrated environment
		optimization
		command line compiler
		installation
	F. Borland C++ 3.1 Programmer's Guide:
		language structure, class libraries, advanced prgramming
		techniques, anci c implementaion
	G. Borland C++ 3.1 Library Reference:
		runtime library, global variables, cross-reference
	H. Borland C++ 3.1 Tools and Utilities Guide:
		error messages, winsightm make, help/resource compilers,
		tlink
	I. Borland Object Windows for C++ User's Guide:
		tutorials, class reference

2. Opened (no plastic wrapping, but unread) Manuals include:
	A. Borland Turbo Assembler 3.0 Quick Reference Guide
	B. Borland Turbo Vision for C++ User's Guide
	C. Borland Resource Workshop User's Guide

This package was purchased by a former employee of my father's and my
father has asked me to try and sell it since neither of us have any use
for it.

Retails for $749, most software houses have it for approx. $480.  I am
asking $400.

If you are interested, please e-mail me directly because I do not normally
read this newsgroup.


=================================================================
I am posting this for someone else.  Please respond to the
address listed below.  Please also excuse the duplication as this
message has been crossposted.  Thanks!
=================================================================

      REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES
                             VIA THE INTERNET

NASA is planning to expand the domain of users of its Earth and space science
data.  This effort will:

  o   Use the evolving infrastructure of the U.S. Global Change Research
      Program including the Mission To Planet Earth (MTPE) and the Earth
      Observing System Data and Information System (EOSDIS) Programs.

  o   Use the Internet, particularly the High Performance Computing and
      Communications Program's NREN (National Research and Education
      Network), as a means of providing access to and distribution of
      science data and images and value added products.

  o   Provide broad access to and utilization of remotely sensed images in
      cooperation with other agencies (especially NOAA, EPA, DOE, DEd,
      DOI/USGS, and USDA).

  o   Support remote sensing image and data users and development
      communities.

The user and development communities to be included (but not limited to) as
part of this effort are educators, commercial application developers (e.g.,
television weather forecasters), librarians, publishers, agriculture
specialists, transportation, forestry, state and local government planners, and
aqua business.

This program will be initiated in 1994.  Your assistance is requested to
identify potential applications of remote sensing images and data.  We would
like your ideas for potential application areas to assist with development of
the Implementation Plan.

PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR PROPOSALS.

We are seeking your ideas in these areas:

  (1)  Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images;

  (2)  Potential noncommercial use of remote sensing data and images in
       education (especially levels K-12) and other noncommercial areas;

  (3)  Types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data more
       accessible;

  (4)  Additional points of contacts for ideas; and

  (5)  Addresses and names  from whom to request proposals.

For your convenience, a standard format for responses is included below.  Feel
free to amend it as necessary.  Either e-mail or fax your responses to us by
May 5, 1993.

E-MAIL:   On Internet "rsdwg@orion.ossa.hq.nasa.gov"  ASCII  - No binary
attachments please

FAX:   Ernie Lucier, c/o RSDWG, NASA HQ, FAX 202-358-3098

Survey responses in the following formats may also be placed in the FTP
directory ~ftp/pub/RSDWG on orion.nasa.gov.  Please indicate the format.
Acceptable formats are: Word for Windows 2.X, Macintosh Word 4.X and 5.X, and
RTF.

----------------------------RESPONSE FORMAT--------------------------

REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES VIA THE INTERNET

(1)  Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images  (if possible,
identify the relevant types of data or science products, user tools, and
standards).

(2)  Uses of remote sensing data and images in education (especially levels
K-12) and other noncommercial areas (if possible, identify the relevant types
of data or science products, user tools, and standards).

(3)  Types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data and images
more accessible (if possible, identify relevant types of formats, standards,
and user tools)

(4)  Additional suggested persons or organizations that may be resources for
further ideas on applications areas.  Please include: Name, Organization,
Address and Telephone Number.

(5)  Organizations, mailing lists (electronic and paper), periodicals, etc. to
whom a solicitation for proposals should be sent when developed.  Please
include: Name, Organization, Address and Telephone Number.

(6)  We would benefit from knowing why users that know about NASA remote
sensing data do not use the data.  Is it because they do not have ties to NASA
investigators, or high cost, lack of accessibility, incompatible data formats,
poor area of interest coverage, inadequate spatial or spectral resolution, ...?


Howdy

We have been having a real problem with an AST 386sx/16 machine with
4mb of RAM.  We installed Paradox for Windows, (but I don't think
Paradox is the real problem here), and the installation went ok
(windows is installed on a local drive, paradox installed on a novell
network (netware 386 v3.26 or greater), DOS 5, Win 3.1) but the program
will not load in 386 enchanted mode.  The thermometer bar goes to 60%
and we then either get a 'invalid command.com' or a windows nastygram
talking about an illegal instruction.  I've checked out the command.com
thing, but as a long-time C programmer, I've crashed my share of machines
with pointer problems and this is a standard behavior :-)

Anyway, paradox will run in standard mode, but not enhanced.  We also have
quattro pro windows, exhibiting the same behavior.  Spent about 2 hours
with Borland's tech people, with no avail.  The guy I talked to a microsoft
didn't want to really dig in and help, as he gave up pretty quickly.
Somewhat disappointing, really.  I expected more from Microsoft.  You'd think
with all the millions of windows installations that they would have seen all
the possible problems, but I guess not...

Microsoft had sent us a 13 page fax on fixing UAE and General
Protection faults (sorry, I can't fax anything out of here so please
don't ask, try Microsoft), which we tried.  We did *everything* they
said, and still no luck.

So.  If you can help, please mail me.  This problem is driving us nuts.
I will greatly appreciate any information anyone can pass on.

Thanks

Kelly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS IS THE REAL SIGNATURE...Please ignore the following demon signature..

Kelly J. Grant     grantk@nosc.mil
4045 Hancock St    (619) 225-2562  "The next time someone asks you if you
San Diego, CA 92110                 are a god, you say YES!"  :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Supreme Court seems to disagree with you -- they have stated that
"the people" is a term of art refering to an individual right, and
have explicitly mentioned the second amendment as an example.

I quote:

  "... 'the people' seems to have been a term of art employed in
  select parts of the Constitution.  The Preamble declares that the
  Constitution is ordained, and established by 'the people of the
  the U.S.'  The Second Amendment protects the right of the people
  to keep and bear Arms ...."
	- Supreme Court of the U.S.,  U.S. v. Uerdugo-Uriquidez (1990).

Furthermore, in the Miller decision, they only permitted prosecution
for possession of a sawed-off shotgun because the defense had not
presented testimony and they therefore accepted the argument of the
government that such weapons have no military value -- they held that
the amendment protected the individual right to possess military
weapons. Unfortunately, no second amendment case has successfully
gotten to the court in fifty years. However, that does not change the
interpretation.

Furthermore, it appears that others disagree with you as well, vis:

 "The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept,
  and wording of the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the
  United States, as well as its interpretation by every major
  commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratifi-
  cation, indicates that what is protected is an individual right
  of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner."
   - Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the
     Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate,
     97th Congress, Second Session ( February 1982 )

You might rightfully ask "well then, what does that first bit about
militias mean?"

Well, "militia" in historical context basically means the whole of the
adult males of the country. (Indeed, the U.S. Code still defines
"militia" as all armed men over the age of 17).

   "The Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting
    in concert for the common defense ....  And ... these men were
    expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of
    the kind in common use at the time."
	- Supreme Court of the United States,  U.S. v. Miller (1939).

The reason for the phrase being there was to explain the rationale
behind the amendment, which was this: by depending on the people to
bear arms in defense of the country, no centralization of military
power could ever occur which would permit tyranny -- in short, the
government would remain perpetually in fear of the people, rather than
the other way around.

   "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.  The strongest reason
   for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last
   resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
     - Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, June 1776
       1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950).

   "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
   warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of
   resistance ?  Let them take arms ... The tree of liberty must be
   refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
     - Thomas Jefferson (letter to William S. Smith, 1787, in
       Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover, ed., 1939).

   "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed;
   as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe.  The supreme
   power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword;
   because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute
   a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on
   any pretense, raised in the United States."
     - Noah Webster, "An Examination into the Leading Principles
       of the Federal Constitution" (1787), in Pamphlets on the
       Constitution of the United States (P. Ford, 1888).

You may disagree with the second amendment, and wish that it be
repealed, but please do not pretend that it isn't there and that it
doesn't mean what it says. You might argue that conditions have
changed and that it should no longer be present, but you can't imagine
it away.

I could fill a book with detailed argumentation. Many have already.

However, none of this has anything to do with cryptography.  Lets get
it out of here. If you insist on discussing this, please do it in
talk.politics.guns, where people will gladly discuss this matter with
you.

--
Perry Metzger		pmetzger@shearson.com


[reply to mcovingt@aisun3.ai.uga.edu (Michael Covington)]

The guy didn't sound too shy to me.  He sounded like a jerk.  I say ditch
him for someone more knowledgeable and empathetic.


	Close Roger, but no banana, er avocado or is it artichoke ?!?

	Geracie in the Murky News said Kingston will be the new 49ers
	quarterback.  I'm still trying to determine if he is kidding
	or not :).  If I happen to pound down enuff pints sometime
	this week I'll go back and check what stooper idiot Purdy
	said in his column.  That ought to be worth a few Leafs, I
	mean Laughs.   If I'm really depressed I'll read the SF Comicle.

	mark

 just say


addition,

Bricklins were manufactured in the 70s with engines from Ford. They are rather
odd looking with the encased front bumper. There aren't a lot of them around,
but Hemmings (Motor News) ususally has ten or so listed. Basically, they are a
performance Ford with new styling slapped on top.

Rush fan?


: Help: I am running some sample problems from O'Reilly volume 4,
: Xt Intrisics Programming Manual, chapter 3. popup
: dialog boxes and so on.
:
: In example 3.5, page 76 : "Creating a pop-up dialog box"
:
: The application creates window with a button "Quit" and "Press me".
: The button "Press me" pops up a dialog box. The strange feature of
: this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the
: first time. If I try to pop it up a 2nd time (3rd, 4th .... time),
: it is *much* slower.
:
: Has anyone any experience with these sample programs, or why I get
: this behaviour - fast response time for the first time but slow response
: time from 2nd time onwards ?
: Anyone can give me some ideas on how to program popups so that each time
: they popup in reasonable fast response time ?
:
: Thankyou - Shirley

Thanks to those who responded.

We were able to prevent this behaviour by two methods:

1) running twm rather than olwm
2) keeping olwm, but putting "wmTimeout: 10" in the resources

It has been suggested that the difficuty was something to do with the
window manager positioning the popup window. Any guru who can analyse
what is going on from this information, please post and let us know.


all of my HO's disagree with your HO's.  I LOVED Dallas rush hour in my stick..
detested it in the auto(like i did any other time in the auto...).  Of course,
Dalls rush hours are nothing, from what i hear..if i lived in LA, i might
be of a different persuasion.  And, just for the record, rarely do you shift
gears when merging into traffic..that is what 5 speeds are good for..4th is
good up through around 80-90, most of the time, so you can just wind it out..
it's not going to hurt anything, and keeps it in the powerband anyway..
only shift into top gear when you are exceeding redline in 4th(fairly rare,
unless you drive a ferrari or some such, i'd bet) or when you hit cruising
speed where you feel comfortable(or when my mother is sitting in the
passanger seat complaining about how you wind her "poor little engine" way
too hi :-)
Just my HO's..


Christian anti-Semitism comes from the obvious fact that the Jews should
know the Hebrew Scriptures better than anyone else, yet they did not
convert to Christianity en mass, thus rejecting "Christian Love."


Has anyone taken a look at the new ViewSonic 17? They claim 1280x1024 at 76Hz.
How does it compare with the T560i in terms of price, and quality of display?


Just a few lines about my favorite team sweeping the Dodgers (one of
my least favorite) in LA (Sweet!).  Also the Mets (my other least
favorite team) loss to the Rockies made this this a great day and a
great start to the weekend as the Cardinals are on the ESPN tonight.

Big Lee Smith is having a great start and the Cardinals seem to be
hitting in the clutch even though they have had a few games with lots
of hits and not many runs.  Hopefully with the coaches stress on
situational hitting in spring training, the runners LOB will be lower
this year (probably due to the high strikeout numbers by Jose and
Lankford and Zeile's off year).

I don't know why all the fuss about the Fillies.  The media and all the
Filly fans on r.s.b forget who is right behind them in the standings.
Give the Wild Thing a week or two before he starts blowing some games
and we'll see who is in first then.  I believe the Cardinal pitching
staff is more complete than the Filly staff and that will make the
difference.

On a side note, a few years ago (5-6), a comment was made by some
baseball player or manager about the Dodger defense.  He was asked
where to hit the ball against the Dodgers and he replied "Fair."  I
remember it being in the "They Said It" section of Sports Illustrated.
I would like to know who said it and what issue it was in.

GO REDBIRDS!!


I have a problem where an Athena strip chart widget is not calling it's
get value function.  I am pretty sure this is happening because I am
not using XtAppMainLoop, but am dealing with events via sockets.  (ya ya).

Anyway, I want to cause a timeout so that the strip chart widget(s) will
call their get value callback.  Or if someone knows another FAST way around
this (or any way for that matter) let me know.  I cannot (or I don't think)
call the XtNgetValue callback myself because I don't have the value for
the third parameter of the get value proc (XtPointer call_data).

In other words, I want to force a strip chart widget to update itself.

Any ideas anyone?


	Well, Druce pretty much sucked when he was with the Caps. He had one
good **playoffs** (not season). oh well. The Caps are notorious for making
stupid trades anyway, as can be seen with the Cicarelli and Hrivnak trades.
Sigh.
	In another note... I'd have to say the Caps biggest surprise was
Cote, as many Caps fans had been expecting a lot from Bondra already.


There has been some talk recently of Latin rites from the early Church used to
bless same-sex unions.If anyone has any idea where copies of these rites
exist (in whole or in part), please notify me by e-mail.  (I understand that
similar ceremonies written in Slavonic exist as well.  Let me know where I can
find these.)  It doesn't matter whether the Latin rite is in the original or a
translation.  However, I would prefer to have an English version of the Slavon-
ic rite, if it exists.  Thanks in advance.

Doug Hayes @ PSU


(Pleading mode on)

Please!  I'm begging you!  Quit confusing religious groups, and stop
making generalizations!  I'm a Protestant!  I'm an evangelical!  I don't
believe that my way is the only way!  I'm not a "creation scientist"!  I
don't think that homosexuals should be hung by their toenails!

If you want to discuss bible thumpers, you would be better off singling
out (and making obtuse generalizations about) Fundamentalists.  If you
compared the actions of Presbyterians or Methodists with those of Southern
Baptists, you would think that they were different religions!

Please, prejudice is about thinking that all people of a group are the
same, so please don't write off all Protestants or all evangelicals!

(Pleading mode off.)

God.......I wish I could get ahold of all the Thomas Stories......


You're right: Thomas, Gonzalez, Sheffield, and Griffey don't even begin
to compare with Ripken, Boggs, and Gwynn, so no wonder Alomar gets so
much attention.

Sandberg got no attention his rookie year because his rookie year was
terrible.  So was his sophomore year.

National League pitchers are "much better pitchers"?  That certainly explains
Sheffield's 1993, hm?  Are you confusing "have ERA's that are 0.40 lower
because they don't face DH's" with "much better"?


Hi there!

Could some kind soul tell me what is the price of LC/IIvi/IIvx
compatible 512kb VRAM SIMMs in the US nowadays? The price over here
(Finland) is so ridiculously high (about $185 each in USD) that I
think it is worth the trouble to try to get them overseas.

Thanks


JB>    RR> "I don't doubt that the placebo effect is alive and well with
JB>    RR>  EVERY medical modality - estimated by some to be around 20+%,
JB>    RR>  but why would it be higher with alternative versus conventional
JB>    RR>  medicine?"
JB>
JB>  Because most the the time, closer to 90% in my experience, there is no
JB>  substance to the 'alternative' intervention beyond the good intentions of the
JB>  practitioner, which in itself is quite therapeutic. [.......]
JB>
JB>  John Badanes, DC, CA
JB>  romdas@uclink.berkeley.edu

   Well, if that's the case in YOUR practice, I have a hard time
   figuring out how you even managed to make it into the bottom half
   of your class, or did you create your diplomas with crayons?

   If someone runs a medical practice with only a 10% success rate,
   they either tackle problems for which they are not qualified to
   treat, or they have no conscience and are only in business for
   fraudulent purposes.

   OTOH, who are we kidding, the New England Medical Journal in 1984
   ran the heading: "Ninety Percent of Diseases are not Treatable by
   Drugs or Surgery," which has been echoed by several other reports.
   No wonder MDs are not amused with alternative medicine, since
   the 20% magic of the "placebo effect" would award alternative
   practitioners twice the success rate of conventional medicine...

   --Ron--


I have two questions:

1) I have been having troubles with my Wordperfect for Windows.
   When I try to select and change fonts, etc. some of the text
   disappears.  I tried to center two lines once, and the second
   line disappeared.  I can not find the error, and I do not
   know how to correct it.

2) Is this the right newsgroup?  Where should I go?

E-mail prefered...

                                                  _____
Who else is still waiting for "Naked Gun Part (Pi) | |  "


long

The NRA is successful because (among a number of things), on the drop of
a hat, they can get a congresspersons office flooded with postcards,
faxes and phone calls.  Certainly, with our way-cool Internet powers of
organization, we can act in the same way, if such action is appropriate.

As long as we are kept informed of events, anyone on this bboard can make
a call to action.  Hopefully, we're a strong enough community to act on
those calls.  I realize this is a little optomistic, and I'm glad EFF is
working in the loop on these issues, but don't underestimate the
potential of the net for political action.


I really don't know where to post this question so I figured that
this board would be most appropriate.
I was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that
are ever present at nuclear poer sites. They look like cylinders
that have been pinched in the middle. Does anybody know what the
actual purpose of those things are?. I hear that they're called
'Cooling Towers' but what the heck do they cool?
I hope someone can help


excuse me for my ignorance. But I remember reading once that the
Biblical tribe known as the Philistines still exists...they are the modern
day Palestinians.
Anyone out there with more info, please post it!!!


I've been hearing rumblings about Fresco, and it sounds like it may be
what I'm looking for, but how far is it from release, or at least some kind
of availability?  How similar is it to InterViews?  If I code to InterViews,
will my code work with Fresco?  How about Motif?  I've heard some mention
of versions of InterViews which support Motif.  Will it be feasible to use
Motif with Fresco?

Any information would be much appreciated.

- Brad


As a minor point of interest, earlier news reports claim to have
been quoting the Governor of Texas when Her Holiness referred to
the Dividians as _Mormons_ and called for their expulsion
from TX. Any Texans have details?


Hi folks.

I'm going to be buying my first bike and I'm considering an 82
Honda Ascot FT500 with less than 5K miles. Does this sound like a
reasonable choice? Is there anything special I need to know?

Thanks.


Has anyone had experience with the new Greenleaf CommLib 4.0?  I can't even
get their demo winterm to run at 4800 baud without dropping characters.

tnx, steve


My wife and I looked at, and drove one last fall. This was a 1992 model.
It was WAYYYYYYYYY underpowered. I could not imagine driving it in the
mountains here in Colorado at anything approaching highway speeds. I
have read that the new 1993 models have a newer, improved hp engine.

I'm quite serious that I laughed in the salesman face when he said "once
it's broken in it will feel more powerful". I had been used to driving a
Jeep 4.0L 190hp engine. I believe the 92's Land Cruisers (Land Yachts)
were 3.0L, the sames as the 4Runner, which is also underpowered (in my
own personal opinion).

They are big cars, very roomy, but nothing spectacular.


Actually the govrnment is telling you that if you want to use their
"product" the manufacturer (actually better yet, some "trusted" pair
of escrow agencies) has to have the key.

Most of us already are in this situation--our car makers have keys to our
cars (or can get them quickly from the VIN  number), and I have no doubt
that if presented with a court order, they'd surrender copies to the
government.

Chances are that many locksmiths have the code numbers for house locks
they've installed, and in an emergency can cut keys; thus they'd also
provide such keys to the government pursuant to a court order.

The state has no difficulty gaining access to your safe deposit box if they
have a court order.

Bad analogy.

This is not to argue for or against the proposal, but rather better
distinctions are required in thinking about it than "house key, safe-deposit
keys, etc.".

David


Very simple.

"X-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide
 against 2.5 million Muslims by admitting to the crime and making
 reparations to the Turks and Kurds."

After all, your criminal grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim
people between 1914 and 1920.

<C5yyBt.5zo@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)

You must be a new 'Arromdian'. You are counting on ASALA/SDPA/ARF
crooks and criminals to prove something for you? No wonder you are in
such a mess. That criminal idiot and 'its' forged/non-existent junk has
already been trashed out by Mutlu, Cosar, Akgun, Uludamar, Akman, Oflazer
and hundreds of people. Moreover, ASALA/SDPA/ARF criminals are responsible
for the massacre of the Turkish people that also prevent them from entering
Turkiye and TRNC. SDPA has yet to renounce its charter which specifically
calls for the second genocide of the Turkish people. This racist, barbarian
and criminal view has been touted by the fascist x-Soviet Armenian government
as merely a step on the road to said genocide.

Now where shall I begin?

#From: ahmet@eecg.toronto.edu (Parlakbilek Ahmet)
#Subject: YALANCI, LIAR : DAVIDIAN
#Keywords: Davidian, the biggest liar
#Message-ID: <1991Jan10.122057.11613@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>

Following is the article that Davidian claims that Hasan Mutlu is a liar:

[some parts are deleted]

				- - -

Receiving this message, I checked the reference, L.Kuper,"Genocide..." and
what I have found was totally consistent with what Davidian said.The book
was like "voice of Armenian revolutionists" and although I read the whole book,
I could not find the original quota.
But there was one more thing to check:The original posting of Mutlu.I found
the original article of Mutlu.It is as follows:

     ======================================================================
    ======

QUATO IS THE SAME, REFERENCE IS DIFFERENT !

DAVIDIAN LIED AGAIN, AND THIS TIME HE CHANGED THE ORIGINAL POSTING OF MUTLU
JUST TO ACCUSE HIM TO BE A LIAR.

Davidian, thank you for writing the page number correctly...

You are the biggest liar I have ever seen.This example showed me that tomorrow
you can lie again, and you may try to make me a liar this time.So I decided
not to read your articles and not to write answers to you.I also advise
all the netters to do the same.We can not prevent your lies, but at least
we may save time by not dealing with your lies.

And for the following line:

I also return all the insults you wrote about Mutlu to you.
I hope you will be drowned in your lies.

Ahmet PARLAKBILEK

#From: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat  Dogan)
#Message-ID: <1993Apr8.233029.29094@news.columbia.edu>

n>crap posted by Mr. [(*]!

 o boy!

 Please, can you tell us why those quotes are "crap"?..because you do not
 like them!!!...because they really exist...why?

 As I said in my previous posting, those quotes exactly exist in the source
 given by Serdar Argic ..

 You couldn't reject it...

 Here we go again..
 In the book I have, both the front page and the Author's preface give
 the same year: 1923 and 15 January, 1923, respectively!
 (Anyone can check it at her/his library,if not, I can send you the copies of
 pages, please ask by sct)

I really don't care what year it was first published(1923 or 1924)
What I care about is what the book writes about murders, tortures,et..in
the given quotes by Serdar Argic, and your denial of these quotes..and your
groundless accussations, etc.

[...]

 I claim I have a book in my hand published in 1923(first publication)
 and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published
 in 1934(Serdar Argic's Reference) has..You couldn't reject it..but, now you
 are avoiding the real issues by twisting around..

 Let's see how you lie!..(from 'non-existing' quotes to re-publication)

 First you said there was no such a quote in the given reference..You
 called Serdar Argic a liar!..
 I said to you, NO, MR.Davidian, there exactly existed such a quote...
 (I even gave the call number, page numbers..you could't reject it.)

 And now, you are lying again and talking about "modified,re-published book"
(without any proof :how, when, where, by whom, etc..)..
 (by the way, how is it possible to re-publish the book in 1923 if it was
  first published in 1924(your claim).I am sure that you have some 'pretty
  well suited theories', as usual)

 And I am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who
 wants to compare the fact and Mr.Davidian's lies...I also give the call number
 and page numbers again for the library use, which are:
                 949.6 R 198

  and the page numbers to verify the quotes:218 and 215

 Now, are you claiming that there can't be such a reference by saying "it is
 not possible..." ..If not, what is your point?

 Differences in the number of pages?
 Mine was published in 1923..Serdar Argic's was in 1934..
 No need to use the same book size and the same letter
 charachter in both publications,etc, etc.. does it give you an idea!!

 The issue was not the number of pages the book has..or the year
 first published..
 And you tried to hide the whole point..
 the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about
 how moslems are killed, tortured,etc by Armenians..and those quotes given
 by Serdar Argic exist!!
 It was the issue, wasn't-it?

 you were not able to object it...Does it bother you anyway?

 You name all these tortures and murders (by Armenians) as a "crap"..
 People who think like you are among the main reasons why the World still
 has so many "craps" in the 1993.

 Any question?

<C5wwqA.9wL@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)

Well, apparently we have another son of Dro 'the Butcher' to contend with.
You should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on
distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries. If you feel
that you can simply act as an Armenian governmental crony in this forum
you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. This is not a lecture to
another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist, but a fact.

I will dissect article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line,
lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan
to 'prove' that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds is
nothing less than a classic un-redressed genocide. We are neither in
x-Soviet Union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship,
that employs the dictates of Hitler to quell domestic unrest. Also, feel
free to distribute all responses to your nearest ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists,
the Armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with the Armenian
criminal organizations.

Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men,
women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. You, and
those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up.

Not a chance.

Serdar Argic


	Perhaps we ought not to have supported a known genocidist?
	Provided him with weapon systems, tactical support, technology,
etc.

	We made Suddam Hussein.

	What did Bush call him? Oh yes, an ally and a freind.

---

  " I'd Cheat on Hillary Too."


I think this is a weak argument.  The fact is, there are *two* references to
Jesus in _Antiquities of the Jews_, one of which has unquestionably at least
been altered by Christians.  Origen wrote, in the third century, that
Josephus did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, while the long passage
says the opposite.  There is an Arabic manuscript of _Antiquities of the
Jews_ which contains a version of the passage which is much less gung-ho
for Jesus and may be authentic.
   There is no question that Origen, in the third century, saw a reference
to Jesus in Josephus.  There are no manuscripts of _Antiquities_ which
lack the references.

It is possible that it was fabricated out of whole cloth and inserted, but
I don't think it's very likely--nor do I think there is a consensus in
the scholarly community that this is the case. (I know G.A. Wells takes
this position, but that's because he takes the very small minority view
that Jesus never existed.  And he is a professor of German, not of
biblical history or New Testament or anything directly relevant to
the historicity of Jesus.)


Mr DeCenso, in spite of requiring Scholarly opinion on the hanging of Judas,
rejects that the scholarly opinion of the those scholars and then rephrases
those scholars opinion on the subject:

and

Actually, if you do further research as to the Greek word "apacgw," you will
find that it does denote success.  Those scholars did indeed have an excellent
reason to assume that the suicide was successful.  As I pointed out, I
recently checked several Lexicons:

	"Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament," Louw and Nida
	"Robinson's Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament"
	"Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament," Grimm
	"Word study Concordance," Tynsdale
	"A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and other
	 early Christian Writings," Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich
	"The New Analytical Greek Lexicon," Perschbacher

A couple simply stated "hanged oneself", and a couple were more explicit
and stated that "apacgw" means specifically "kill yourself by hanging." A
couple also noted that the meaning of one the root words for "apacgw" is
"strangle, throttle or choke" (which pretty much invalidates the guy who
suggested to David Joslin that Judas was hung upside down).  One of the best
references though, "Robinson's Greek and English Lexicon of the New
Testament," not only stated the translation, it gave both the root words, the
literal translation, related greek words which use the same roots, and also
other presented specific examples of the word in greek literature (to give
further context).

The word "apagchw" has two root words: "gchw" is the "to strangle" root, and
the root word "apo" means literally "away." This root words is included in
words which denote a transition.  It can mean a transition in place (eg: the
greek word "apagello" means to send a message).  "Apo" can also denote a
change in state and specifically the change from life to death.  Robinson
specifically makes comparison to the word "apokteiuo," which means "to kill."
In literal meaning the word "apacgw" means "to throttle, strangle to put out
of the way," and implicitly denotes a change in life state (ie: away from
life, to death).  So while the word "apacgw" does mean "to hang," it
specifically denotes a death as well.  Thus Robinson is quite specific when he
state that it means "to hang oneself, to end one's life by hanging." He then
notes the the use of "apacgw" in Homers Odessy 19:230 to denote context.  He
presents that example of "apacgw" as being used to explicitly mean "suicide by
hanging." Now since there is a perfectly good word for strangling, without the
added denotation of "death," and as you insist that the Bible was written by
God, and every word is precicely correct, you are stuck with the complete
meaning of "apacgw" (ie: Since the word "apacgw" was used, then death is
denoted as the result).

By the way, I note that Mr DeCenso also presents an example of "apacgw":

Note Mr DeCenso, as you say, the Septuagint was a translation from Hebrew to
Greek, and you have not shown the original meaning of the Hebrew (ie" the the
Hebrew say "and died"), and thus whether it was simply echoed in the Greek.
It should also be pointed out that, regardless of the added "and died", the
correct translation would still be "apacgw," as the man did indeed die from
strangulation (redundant, but correct).  Further, we have evidence that the
Septuagint was repeatedly rewritten and reedited (which included versions
which contradicted each other), and such editing was not even necessarily
executed by Greeks.  Thus I am not sure that you can use the Septuagint as it
now stands, as a paragon of ancient greek.  So, what you really need to prove
your point Mr DeCenso, is an example, in ancient greek, of someone committing
"apacgw" and surviving.  Otherwise I would see you as simply making worthless
assertions without corresponding evidence.

Now I would note Mr DeCenso, that everytime I go out of my way to research it
one of your apparently contrived exegisis, I pretty much find it false.  Thus,
I think that if you are going to add to the text, something over and above
what the source clearly says, then you had better have an explicit Greek or
historical source to justify it.

By the way, as to Mr Rose's statement about trees around the Potter's Field:

Unless Mr Rose can show that these trees are two thousand years old, or that
there are 2000 year old stumps there, or has a 2 thousand year old description
of the area which mentions such trees, then it is inappropriate for him to
assert that the present placement of trees prove the location of the trees two
thousand years ago (after all, things change).

Now as to your other argument, ie: that the money Judas used is not the same
as the 30 silvers:

True, Peter (or the author of Acts) does not specifically call Judas' betrayal
"an iniquity," but for that matter, neither does John specifically call Judas'
actions "an iniquity" either.  Further John 13:29 did not say that Judas took

    "Some thought that because, Judas had the money box, Jesus was telling
     him "Buy what we need for the feast"; or that he should give something
     to the poor, So after receiving the morsel he immediately went out, and
     it was night."

Note that it is said that Judas left, it does not say that he took the money
box.  Thus when I see your explanation it still seems to me you would choose
the a an unproven iniquity, mentioned by another author, in a different
book, written at a different time, over the iniquity explicitly mentioned by
the author of acts.  I find this forced and contrived.

Of course this particular argument becomes moot, since we have have seen
evidence that "apacgw" means suicide.  You see, since Judas' hanging was
successful, he could not have spent the money mentioned in John 13:29, because
Matthew and Mark explicitly say the betrayal was on the high holy day (ie:
Passover), and thus he could not have spent the money before killing himself
the next day.  Thus the money which bought the "Field of Blood" would have to
have been the 30 pieces of silver (Of course he got the 30 pieces of silver
that night as well, and thus couldn't have spent that either.  Oh dear, I
believe that the house of cards is comming down).

Maybe we should at this point, discuss now whether Jesus was crucified on
Friday or Saturday as that is now part of the argument about Judas.

By the way, as to where the prophesy of the Potter's field came from (ie: the
mention of it in Matthew), you say:

I am reminding you now to discuss it now. It's all part of the same verse we
are discussing, and I wish you would quit procrastinating and sidestepping
these issues.

				Later,

				Dave Butler

	A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
				David Hume, Philosopher
				An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding


What is address interliving? and memmory modules  interliving?
Thanks in advance for the info.
Robert.


Pens-6 NJ Devils-6

FIRST PERIOD: SCORING: 1, Pittsburgh, Daniels(Needham, Tippett)4:14.
2, NJ Devils, C. Lemieux(Semak, Driver)10:19.  3, Pittsburgh, Stevens
(Tocchet, Murphy)12:40ppg.  4, NJ Devils, Zelepukin(Driver, Niedermayer)
17:26.  PENALTIES: PGH, Stevens(roughing)1:30.  NJD, Pellerin-double
minor(cross-checking)1:30.  NJD, Zelepukin(tripping)7:21.  NJD,
Stasny(holding)11:15.  PGH, Taglianetti(roughing)13:51.  NJD, Lemieux
(roughing)13:51.  PGH, Jagr(tripping)15:23.

SECOND PERIOD: SCORING: 5, Pittsburgh, Lemieux(Murphy, Tocchet)1:42.
6, NJ Devils, Semak(Lemieux, Zelepukin)2:27.  7, Pittsburgh, McEachern
(Jagr, Barrasso)4:24.  8, NJD, Stevens(Guerin, Pellerin)5:45.  9,
Pittsburgh, Lemieux(unassisted)12:40shg.  10, NJ Devils, Richer
(Nicholls)15:53.  11, NJ Devils, Lemieux(Zelepukin)17:40.  PENALTIES:
PGH, Stevens(roughing)3:06.  NJD, McKay(roughing)3:06.  PGH, Mullen
(hooking)10:42.  PGH, Tocchet(roughing)12:06.  NJD, Stevens(slashing)
12:06.  NJD, Lemieux(unsportsmanlike conduct)12:40.  PGH, U.
Samuelsson(cross checking)20:00.  PGH, Barrasso-double minor(spearing)
served by McEachern, 20:00.  NJD, Holik(cross checking)20:00.  NJD,
Lemieux(roughing)20:00.

THIRD PERIOD: SCORING: 12, Pittsburgh, Mullen(Jagr, Lemieux)18:54.
PENALTIES: NJD, Daneyko(interference)3:37.  PGH, Stevens(roughing)
9:18.  NJD, Holik(roughing)9:18.  PGH, match penalty-game misconduct,9:50.
NJD, Zelepukin(tripping)12:01.  PGH, Stevens(roughing)18:41.  NJD,
Daneyko(roughing)18:41.

OVERTIME: SCORING: No scoring.  PENALTIES: No penalties.

SHOTS ON GOAL:
Pittsburgh: 9-11-8-2=30
NJ Devils: 12-15-9-3=39

GOALIES:
Barrasso(39 shots, 33 saves. 43-14-5)
Billington(30 shots, 24 saves)

REF: Devorski  Linesmen: Gauthier, Vines


I think he just wanted to get Henneman some work, because the
Tigers had days off both the day before and the day after.


Last I had heard because of budget and such the Air Farce is the only "Space
Command" left.. The rest missions were generally given to the Air Farce..

Probably a good reason for me to transfer from the Army Guard to the Air
Guard..

I hate walking with a pack on my back, and how do you put on your application
for a job as a kitchen worker, that you have done a lot of KP (Kitchen
Police)..


                 ^^^^^^^
                                                       ^^^^^^^^

Sounds pretty lame to me.

Let me see if I understand now. Your "friends" charge you extra?
Just how much do you usually have to pay for a little
friendliness? Seems like you're being "serviced" by some
"friendly" sales people.


    You must not have tried very hard. I just opend mine in about 2
seconds. Take a look on the bottom, it has a dial that turns to open
much like the older ADB mouses used to have. It's a bit harder to turn
at first but it is quite simple to open.

    Well, if you don't match up the pins correctly you will have some
problems. A close look at the socket should give you an idea of the
proper orientation of the chip.


Hmmmm, I'm not sure this is true.  According to Mike Lang and good old
Stagie, along with the rest of the TV crews in pittsburgh, they
winning streak could have stopped because it is a regular season mark.
I would think this would also hold with an unbeaten streak for regular
season games.


Some weeks ago, someone posted an article telling when and where
a hamfest and computerfest was going to be help in Dayton, OH.
Unfortunately, I lost the article and I was wondering if someone
could repost it.

I believe it was being held the 23,24,and 25 of this month at
the Dayton convention center but I'm not sure.

Any help and more details would be greatly appreciated.


Called "gas".

The balloons were in sufficiently low orbit that they experienced
some air resistance.  When they were finally punctured, this
preasure (and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain
a spherical shape against this resistance) caused them to
catastrophically deflated.  The large silvered shards
that remained were easily visible for some time before
reentry, though no longer useful as a passive transponder.


It's in the FAQ.

have fun
gak


I have a vt200 and vt100 compatible terminal
with 1200 external hyess modem
amber screens 101 keyboard,cable
make an offer
0


Obviously, you really don't know.

They *have* spoken out (cf Sec'y of State Christopher's recent trip to the ME),
they have provided millions in aid, and they have participated in the airlifts
to Sarajevo.  They *would* supply military aid, if the UN would lift the embargo
on arms sales.

See above.  (Kuwait has directly participated in the airlift of food to
Sarajevo.)

Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
"oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.


I have noticed this exact same phenomenon occurs with my LCIII.  Perhaps it is
a quirk of the new machines?


Essential tremor is a progressive hereditary tremor that gets worse
when the patient tries to use the effected member.  All limbs, vocal
cords, and head can be involved.  Inderal is a beta-blocker and
is usually effective in diminishing the tremor.  Alcohol and mysoline
are also effective, but alcohol is too toxic to use as a treatment.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon."


Sorry for posting this, but my e-mail keeps bouncing.  Maybe it will
help others here, anyway, and therefore I pray others will read this.  It is
actually a response from my Aunt, who has 5 kids, since I have none yet.

     I'm posting this for a good Christian relative who does not have e-mail
access.  Since this aunt and uncle have 5 kids I felt they would be more
relevant than I, who have none (yet).

     13-year-old (13YO) twins, 10YO boy, 6.5YO boy, 2YO girl

     I don't call it spanking, but they do, so yes, very rarely.

     I don't call it spanking because it's more of a reaction to something
very dangerous, such as trying to stick their finger in a fan or running
into the road.  Maybe 3-4 times for each except for the 2YO girl, who has
not been spanked yet.
     They call it that because it *does* hurt their feelings, and of course
I give all the hugs and stuff to ensure they know they're still loved.

     No, that would be too painful.  If it's too traumatic they never recall
why they were punished.  Besides, it must be immediate, and taking the time
to go get a toolmeans you're not doing it right away, and that lessens the
impact.  It's very emotional for a child as it is - which is evidenced by the
fact that a little slap on the rear - which hurts for perhaps 5 seconds -
is called a spanking.
     Lots of logical consequences - for instance, when 4YO Matthew dared
a good friend to jump out of his treehouse or he would push him out, I made
sure they didn't play together for 5 days so he'd know that would make him
lose friends very quickly.  He's never done anything like that since.
     We also use time-out in their rooms - I use a timer so they don't keep
arguing with me over leaving, since it's hard to argue with a macine.
I will go to the closed door and tell them timeout won't be over until they
calm down if they're too tantrumy.  I use the top of the stairs when they're
really young.

     40

     Bath, Ohio.  It's right outside of Akron, in the northeast part of Ohio.

     No, and none of my kids would dream of it.  I hope you can use this to
teach all parents that physical punishment isn't always required - parents use
that as an excuse to hit too hard.

     Lots of timeouts, same as I use.  Our family and my husband's have never
used spankings.  In fact, my grandmother in law was one of 11 kids, and they
were almost never spanked.  This was around the turn of the century.  And,
none of us has ever been afoul of the law - man-made or God's law.
     Jesus says, referring to a small child whom he is holding, that "what
ye do to the least of these, ye do also to me."  The Bible also says in all
things to be kind, and merciful, and especially loving. (Colossians 3:12-15.)
There is no room for selfish anger, which I'll admit I've been tempted with
at times.  When I've felt like spanking hard in anger, maybe the kid deserved
a little slap on the rear, but what I would have given would have been the
devil's work.  I could feel the temptation, and just angrily ordered the kid
to his/her room and went to my room myself.  After praying and asking God's
forgiveness, I was much calmer, and did not feel like spanking, but felt that
what I had done was enough punishment.


Anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the Diamond 1024x768x256 driver?
Sorry, don't know the version of the driver (no indication in the menus) but it's a recently
delivered Gateway system.  Am going to try the latest drivers from Diamond BBS but wondered
if anyone else had seen this.

post or email


Makes sense, since the new Mercedes Benz engines go from 2.2L-4 to a 2.8L-6.
Nothing in between.  BTW, I beleive the numbers on those MB engines are
156 and 225 hp respectively.  The one-upmanship in hp might induce BMW
to create a larger six.  Also, the 2.6 190E has lagged behind the 3-er
2.5 for some time wrt hp.   I am sure the Bavarians wouldn't want to be
"shown-up" by the Schwabians.

PS- those MB engines haven't been released over here yet.


      Two institutions with absolute power.  Cute.

      Let's talk practicality, shall we?  If the Monarch tried to
do something, what would happen?

       But you illustrated the problem very well.

       I am contending that there is no state in the Union which does
not have ample wealth, if they choose to spend it, to run a perfectly
acceptable Education system.  (I further contend that the amount of money
being spent now is more then sufficient, but is being spent badly.)

       So, tell me Phill.  Were the Republicans also responsible for some
of the *huge* increases in social programs?  Or were they *only*
responsible for what you don't like.  (I contend it is Congress which
is to blame.  Democrat and Republican alike.)

       Most of our worst areas are still better off than most of Europe.
In any case, we're talking about *education*.

       Yes, I live in once such area.  You're woefully ignorant of the
situation.

       At the same time some of Tennessee's school districts are closing
down, the Governor asked for 7.5 million dollars for bicentenntial
celebration license plats.  In almost the same breath he wanted to raise
unemployment compensation and reduce taxes which paid into it.

       I don't know about the rest of the country, but *our* education
problems stem directly from two problems, neither of which are a lack
of money in the state.  (BTW, Tennessee is considered a "tax heaven"
and our economy is one of the strongest in the country.  *I* see
a correlation.)  1)  What money we spend goes primarly to administration.
The average administrator makes two and a half times what the average
teacher makes, and sucks up an enormous amount of revenue.  And 2)
the Governor is making a concerted effort to create an "Education crisis"
in order to push for his pet income tax.  Some of the most idiotic
programs get funded (like State funds for new art in the county seat)
while schools are closing.  It's not a lack of funds.  It's an
unwillingness to spend them on what is more appropriate.  Education
is *the* parental hot-button.  Education is *always* the first to
but cut, because it's easier to get people to pay for their children
than ugly art.

      It spoke very eloquently on government being based on the
consent of the governed.

      They did it anyway.  The Continental Congress had its own set of
bylaws.  It wasn't quite a government, but a means of making decisions
had to be created.  (However low George Washington's opinion of them were.)

      Allow me again to speak heresy against the Holy Democratic Orders.
So what?  The government was built with a very non-democratic Presidency
with fairly broad powers, including the veto.

      Yes, and the Senate was intended to act as a balance to this.
Too much democracy was intentionally avoided.  It was considered a good
thing to place non-democratic blocks to impulsive action.

      So long as Congress has something to sell, people will pay for
it.  Most congressmen rake in more money than they need.

       No, if the "progressives" don't want the "reactionaries" to move
backward, they get the same benefit.  41% of the states is a *lot* of
people.  And historically laws with that sort of minority arent'
very effective, especially since it is usually geographically
concentrated.
       When wielding the Federal Big Stick I don't see why they shouldn't
have to make a better argument than, "more people than not," agree.

       I'm not a Republican.  I'm a republican.  :-)

       And no, I'm neither a Democrat nor a democrat.

       Now, I've asked several times, and all you've done is answer
"It isn't democratic," which I knew before I said it.  Why *should*
it be democratic?  We don't have a true direct democracy, and few
people advocate one.  Why, then, is this other modification of
democracy to bias it against action so much worse?


Hi all!
	I've just recently become seriously hooked on POV, but there are a few
thing that I want to do that POV won't do (penumbral shadows, dispersion
etc.). I was just wondering: what other shareware/freeware raytracers are
out there, and what can they do? I've heard of Vivid and Polyray and
Rayshade and so on, but I'd rather no wade through several hundred pages of
manual for each trying to work out what their capabilities are. Can anyone
help? A comparison of tracing speed between each program would also be
mucho useful.
											Mark.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Mackey                 | Life is a terminal disease and oxygen is
mmackey@aqueous.ml.csiro.au | addictive. Are _you_ hooked?


                         ^^^^^^^ Militia

                  ^^^^^ State

        ^^^^ Arms

You didn't even get the capitalization correct!  Try reading USCA on
the Constitution, or get any other CORRECT version of the
Constitution.

Perhaps you should actually READ the Federalist Papers!!

    James Madison, Federalist Paper 46: "Besides the advantage of
    being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost
    every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to
    which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers
    are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of
    ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government
    of any form can admit of.  Notwithstanding the military
    establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are
    carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments
    are afraid to trust the people with arms."
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, 8 June 1789: "The right
    of the people to keep and bear... arms shall not be infringed.  A
    well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people,
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free
    country..."

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Paper 29 (on the organization of
    the militia): "Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with
    respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it
    will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of
    a year."

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Paper 29 (speaking of standing
    armies): "... if circumstances should at any time oblige the
    government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be
    formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large
    body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*****
    own rights and those of their fellow-citizens."
    ***^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But *surely* Hamilton and Madison didn't mean the PEOPLE when they
said "people", right?  That's why the Amendment refers to "the Right
of the Militia"?...  ;-)

You're right, the Militia consists of ALL able bodied males (and
probably females under current interpretation).

The Amendment does nor refer to "well organized", it says "well
regulated".  I have some targets you may examine if you wish to check
how _well regulated_ I am.

Correct.  That's why the Right is reserved to the People.  And that
was to insure the People could form a "well regulated Militia", not a
"well organized militia".

What do Atomic Units have to do with this argument?  Any moron can set
h_bar = C = 1...

Oh, I see what your question is; Why don't you read the federalist
Papers?!

    James Madison, Federalist Paper 41 (regarding the "General
    Welfare" clause): "Nothing is more natural nor common than first
    to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a
    recital of particulars."

But what does Madison know about the grammatical style of the 2nd?  He
only wrote it.

That's obviously because you've never actually *read* the Federalist
Papers.

Can't read, huh?  Show me where the document says "well organized
militia".

That is *exactly* why EVERY PERSON should be allowed to own *any*
weapon currently in use in the armed forces.

But the major reason is to protect against that very same army.

    Abraham Lincoln, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861: "This
    country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit
    it.  Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government,
    they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or
    their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."

    Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate
    over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, 17 August
    1789: "What, Sir, is the use of a militia?  It is to prevent the
    establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. ...
    Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of
    the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order
    to raise an army upon their ruins."

So now we know which category Mr. Rutledge is in; He means to destroy
our Liberties and Rights.

--
Charles Scripter   *   cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Tech, Houghton, MI 49931


Fred.

	Try reading a bit.  THe government does lots of multi year
contracts with Penalty for cancellation clauses.  They just like to be
damn sure they know what they are doing before they sign a multi year
contract.   THe reason they aren't cutting defense spending as much
as they would like is the Reagan administration signed enough
Multi year contracts,  that it's now cheaper to just finish them out.

Look at SSF.  THis years funding is 2.2 Billion,  1.8 of which will
cover penalty clauses, due to the re-design.


Tony-

I read your post, it was nothing new, I had seen much the same in other
typical"Christian" anti-gay sentimental literature.  Gay people are and will
con- tinue to be persecuted as long as such propaganda petpetuates.  You may
be unaware of all the statistica "findings" concerning African-Americans that
have been published and used by various groups to re-enforce their own bias
against African-Americans.  We usually think of the KKK in these instances,
but there are many other groups.  Of course, the vast majority of the public
scoff at such findings and documents today, but that was not always the case.
Fortunately African-Americans had "whites" who supported their 'cause' and
public sentiment was eventually (if not entirely) turned around.  There was
even a Civil War, and anti-negro sentiment increased.  In fact, until laws
were put in place to protect the inalienable rights of Blacks it was pretty
much legal to discriminate against them.

I know many gays and I will NOT turn my back on them or their right to be free
form discrimination.  You may think that I have been deceived or something,
that is your perogative.  My church, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
openly affirms the rights of oppressed people of all segments of society,
including gays.  We believe the Gospel message of preaching to all creation
and making disciples.  We believe in the Lord's great commandment to Love,
and we beleive in standing up for the oppressed, even if it is not popular
to do so.  I really like my church for last reason the most.  I can find a
church almost anywhere in the valley that stands for the Gospel and believes
in the commandment of Love (though I'm hard-pressed to find many who actually
sho Love), but not many are willing to champion the oppressed, especially
within their own community.  I may have lost face with the greater Christian
community for the unpopularity of my beliefs, but so did the abolitionists
against the oppression of African-Americans.  Many were even killed and
treated as runaway slaves for being "nigger-lovers" and such.  I guess I've
decided the challenge is worth it.

In my talks with gay men and women I have heard tragic story after tragic
story centering around failed marriages, wives and husbands who are straight
who have been hurt in the process, etc.  Funny thing is, I don't know of one
case where the parents, ex-wives, or even children have continued to reject
their gay family member (son, daughter, ex-husband, father, etc.) after they
began to take part in some form of support group, like PFLAG.

I'm apalled by the legislation which passed in Colorado, and am equally out0
raged that such slimey people as Louis Sheldon (from the Tradition Values
Coalition) have been actively working in the Christian underground to garner
support within several (8 I believe) states this coming November for more
oppressive legisation against gays.

Perhaps you don't get it, and maybe you never will.  Many didn't get it in the
Middle Ages and the proclaimed God's will be done as they massacred thousands
in witch hunts and inquisitions.

The message that comes through, loud and clear, by proponents against gay
rights and against gays in general, is that there is a strong dislike, even
hatred for gays, whether you want to call it such or not (it doesn't change
the results).  The major flaw in all this posturing is that in the end, the
final effect of posts like that of yours and Mr. Hudson is that YOU have a
"conditional" love for gays.  Condition:  Change and we'll love you. This is
sure strange coming from a group who claim that God has an "unconditional"
love, one that calls people "just as they are."  Sure there are things that
will 'naturally' change, and habits (like alcoholism, wife beating, etc.) that
need to be changed through some sort of therapy.  But then there are things
like left-handedness, etc. that no amount of beating it out of people, is
going to result in anything more than an outward conforminty to "other
people's expectations." In the process this coerced conformity causes many
people a great deal of harm, especially when it is caused by people who have
nothing more to gain from it that to become even more puffed up about their
own sense of pseuper-spirituality.

This is sad, but I thoroughly believe that one day it will change.  It may be
unpopular to cry for justice and equality when the basis has to do with
something very personal like 'sexuality' (a taboo subject even today), but I
firmly believe in the rights of individuals to be free from impose regulation
on thier bedrooms.  It's funny that most straight people have successfully
removed restrictive and oppressive legislation against invasive legislation,
but we like to maintain this little chestnut of repression...as though it
helps us maintain a sense of superiority over at least one segment of society.
Gay people are not criminals.

Another interesting thing happened recently.  A very prominent charismatic
church in the Silicon Valley (here) had two of it's pastors arrested for self-
admitted charges of pederasty (men having sex with boys).  This had apparently
been going on for some time (a couple years?), but since the charges were
voluntary, and the church worked closely with the police, so I imagine that
was how they managed to downplay it in the media.  How could such a thing
happen when the church, itself, has an ex-gay ministry?  One of my friends
recently told me he was "approached" by someone who is going through the
reparitive therapy there, and he was thoroughly convinced that the request for
dinner was not an invitation to attend the ministry.

These are difficult times we live in, but providing hostile environments and
creating and perpetuating an atmosphere that breed hate and violence is not
the call of the Christian community.  The results of the passing amendment in
Colorado has created an organization who's posters are appearing all over
Colorado called "S.T.R.A.I.G.H.T." (I forget the whole definition off hand,
but the last part was Against Immoral Gross Homosexual Trash) and their motto
is "Working for a fag-free America" with an implicit advocation for violence.

This is sick, and it seems to be what you and Mr. Hudson, and others are
embracing.

We Christians have a LOOOOOOOOOONG tradition of coersion and oppression
towards those we feel don't 'measure up', and constant beratement from
organizations like The Christian Research Institute, while they do have a good
purpose also, their major work seems to be finding new and better ways of
excluding people.

The Gospel I believe is not so negative, rather it seeks ways to "include"
people.  I have several of Dr. Martin's books and find them quite helpful,
especially concerning 'cults.' But it seems that CRI, has become a cult unto
itself.  Why don't we just stick to the positive and find ways to bring people
to Jesus istead of taking bullwhips and driving them away?

Whatever