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Transgender women and Feminism

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by Bananarama, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    It's only really a reproductive rights issue if it concerns your body. Women can make a choice as to whether to have an abortion because it concerns their body. And Roe v Wade and Planned Parenthood v Casey made it clear that choice over whether to terminate a pregnancy is protected by the 14th Amendment.

    Once the child is born then men and women have the same legal responsibilities towards it. And those responsibilities have to reflect the best interests of the child.

    And child support isn't the same a parenthood. A non-custodial parent is not have to have either visitation or custody: http://www.salon.com/2013/11/07/no_child_support_cant_be_a_choice/

    Men can choose not to have relationship with the child if they do not wish to. The obligation to provide financial assistance to a child is no where near as burdensome as those related to childbirth and pregnancy.

    The two issues just aren't equivalent of each other. As I point out, the US courts have already thrown out this argument (There has been some support for you're position in Scandinavia and among some scholars - though I don't think they are persuasive)
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  2. bobjr


    It doesn't help that men are getting more reproductive rights and women are getting less and less, where some states she's hardly even counted as a person. In Oklahoma women are an "object who carries the baby".
  3. satopi

    satopi Go’s Scyther is indestriketible! <3

    This statement sounds very pro life. In my personal opinion, terminating an unwanted pregnancy isn't murder especially when it's just a clump of cells that hasn't fully developed. In some murder cases when a pregnant woman is killed, the charge of killing her unborn child is included at a point where it's developed enough to be considered a living being. Yes there are aftereffects when getting an abortion but it isn't long lasting. An abortion can't affect an unborn child just because that child share your genes, it barely but most likely doesn't have a conscious.

    The term "we're pregnant" seems to be acceptable to use even though the man hasn't done much but knock a girl up. You don't see him going through body changes, baking a baby for 6-9 months, nor going through hormones.
  4. snorlax512

    snorlax512 Well-Known Member

    Your argument is essentially since A is less burdensome than B, women should have the choice of B but men can't have the choice of A. This makes no sense because both are perfectly compatible, it just means that women have to take responsibility for their choices.

    You can have control over your body, and I can have control over my wallet. Just because my wallet is less important than your body (even so 18 years of child support is no walk in the park) does not mean I shouldn't have control over my wallet.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  5. bobjr


    It would be a better argument if it didn't come down on the woman the majority of the time. Plus if a couple is arguing about whether or not to have a child odds are having a child would lead to not great relationship results.
  6. snorlax512

    snorlax512 Well-Known Member

    This is about rights and fairness, not about who it "comes down" on. Abortion comes down on men too, doesn't mean the right to control over one's body is any less an argument.
  7. bobjr


    But when it's inherently balanced unfairly towards women pushing the scales towards men only makes it more unfair to women.
  8. snorlax512

    snorlax512 Well-Known Member

    So what reproductive rights do men have right now?
  9. chess-z

    chess-z campy vampire

    Well, I mentioned the vasectomy, and other birth control for men is easy to find. Why do you want to infringe on the rights of women?
  10. snorlax512

    snorlax512 Well-Known Member

    If I don't want to be a father it's probably because I'm young and don't have money, doesn't mean I want to never have children. How exactly I am infringing on women's rights? If you have the right to opt out of parenthood, so should I.
  11. chess-z

    chess-z campy vampire

    What are you even red herring-ing about now? What do you want?
  12. GhostAnime

    GhostAnime Searching for her...

    i don't even know why we're entertaining this ***. who the **** goes in a feminism topic preaching feminism is bad?

    get this cis white straight boy outta here.
  13. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    As the Salon article pointed out, you do have a right to opt out of parenthood. You don't have to have visitation or custody. Child support is not the same as parenthood.
  14. GhostAnime

    GhostAnime Searching for her...

    and this ****er had the audacity to criticize feminism for exclusion when in another topic he actively advocated for a speaker to willfully disrespect transgender people by misgendering them for the sake of "science".

    bobjr is this grounds for trolling of some sort? he's not here to discuss feminism genuinely; he just wants to piss feminists off at this point.
  15. Bananarama

    Bananarama The light is coming

    So YouTube is blocking LGBTQ-related videos on their restricted mode.

    Anybody have thoughts on this?

    I'm personally disappointed by this. To me, this is painting the picture of the LGBTQ community as being "inappropriate", and a lot of these videos have absolutely nothing to do with sex and can be important resources for the LGBTQ community, especially trans people.
  16. bobjr


    Well his criticism of feminism is so cliched I'm surprised I haven't seen a "Well I consider myself Egalitarian" or something similar. It fits the "rationalism" mindset where confirmation bias warps thing where labels are seen as bad above all else unless it's "science" they agree with.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  17. GhostAnime

    GhostAnime Searching for her...

    I'm greatly appalled and will definitely share this. This is huge indeed. Erasing the existence of LBGT on a platform like this makes it infinitely harder for them to educate those who need to hear them. :(
  18. satopi

    satopi Go’s Scyther is indestriketible! <3

    Funny on how I keep getting recommended videos of trans people's experiences.

    Hearing the experiences of LGBT people or showing their daily life and struggles and such, really does give people insight and ceasing their ignorance. Popular media always paint stereotypes of what LGBT people look and act like that and that's fuel to how some people view them, like all of them are like that. I for example, had questions of how LGBT parents are like. Are the children treated different like do they turn out gay or do the parents flaunt their gayness like teaching their child to be gay (playing with Barbies with same sex parents or twisting Bible verses like how God created not just Adam and Eve but a love between the same gender)? Do the parents prefer raising the same gender? How do they get children? How do their child(ren) refer to them, etc. When I started watching a few videos of a lesbian couple with children, I started realizing that the children are raised normally, they aren't taught any different from how straight couples are and the criticisms like how there supposedly isn't a strong male figure in their lives are addressed.

    There are also gay men who dress averagely and don't try to make their voice sound effeminate so the "gaydar" thing is kind of BS. Their preferred & natural attraction towards either gender doesn't always reflect how they act, sound, and look like. I do believe that there is a partner that acts more or less masculine and tough/feminine and calm. It is really saddening if Youtube really is doing this. They're basically silencing people who have been forced into secrecy for hundreds of years in the past and feels like a violation to their rights. If love is love then that sort of love should have a platform to stand on and express.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  19. Ereshkigal

    Ereshkigal Well-Known Member

    Youtube is a subsidiary of Google.

    If Youtube is acting this way, what will Google do in their other subsidiaries?
  20. EmphaticPikachu

    EmphaticPikachu A tired little girl~

    Even if my experiences are fundamentally different because I was cultured as male- I'm still going to be cultured as female eventually, specially if I "pass". At that point, society can't see a difference unless they invade my privacy.

    At that point, I guess i just don't think it matters that much. Maybe i don't get what it means to be a woman as a child, but i get it as a young adult and on- Or at least, I don't get the societal pressures.
    Some trans people even start transitioning earlier, so who's to say, I guess?

    Anyway this is about personal experiences first and foremost-so yes, I can concede that we won't have exactly the same experiences. But I've found the whole "you can't experience what i experienced" to be woefully weak. I'd never say that to someone that was trying to empathize with my own struggles as a transwoman, stifles legitimately good conversation. Being trans is "weird" but its not something i feel cannot be understood, etc etc, and understanding is enough.

    I guess i just disagree with the premise in the first place over anything else. The differences are small enough they shouldn't friggen matter.

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