Questions for Matt Barnes

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by John Bishop, Mar 8, 2007.

  1. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Matt, looks like your doing a outstanding job making a central repository of various SKK techniques.
    A lot of people don't realize how important it is to have a historical record of a systems techniques, until decades later when the founders are dead. Then all of a sudden self proclamed successors or "personal" students are coming out with "the real" techniques. But yet very few of these people are in agreement as to who was taught the "real" system.

    But anyway, back to my questions. I know you and several other east coast SKK people have been training with Kimo Fierrera (sp) for some time now. So my questions are, how much of a resemblance are you seeing between SKK and Kempo Jutsu Kai?
    Am I correct in assuming that Kempo Jutsu Kai is heavily influenced by Kimo's training with Walter Godin and Martin Buell?
    Can you explain what you see as differances, or close resemblances?
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2007
  2. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    Look - I'm a thread! ;)

    Thanks. It's taken a bit of work, but the help I've received from many good folks (especially a bunch from this forum) has made it a much less insurmountable task. It's been good to track who learned what from whom and to compare versions. It's a work in progress, and the more I put up, the more comes in. It sure has grown to be a big system.

    I put the archive up for a couple reasons. Yes, it's part of the historical record, but I also wanted to let folks look at the system as a more complete whole rather than the snippets that most people (even ones who have trained in the system) are exposed to.

    That's a couple of really interesting questions. I'm going to start with the second one, as it's much easier (and thankfully briefer). Absolutely. Professor Ferreira's Kempo Jutsu is heavily influenced by Walter Godin and his training with Martin Buell while Mr. Buell was still with Walter Godin's organization. Mr. Buell has since taken his own direction, but Professor Ferreira's material reflects more the earlier time period before Mr. Buell started his own organization. Many other influences from the many training partners Professor Kimo encountered during his travels in the military have helped shape Kempo Jutsu as well.

    As for the first question, it's a bit more complex. Some of the techniques are carryovers from training with Walter Godin, some are creations of Professor Kimo, and sometimes he teaches techniques he learned from Kempo 'old timers' who he has had a chance to interview and touch hands with as 'historical examples' of how certain individuals liked to do things.

    Limiting the comparison to rank material simplifies things a bit.
    As far as specific ingredients go, the techniques are pretty similar - low kicks, basic 8 blocks, hammers, punches, eyepokes, claws, etc. However, the taxonomy is different. There are far fewer 'named' hand forms in Kempo Jutsu - no 'snakes tooth' or 'chicken wrist', etc. Punch, palm, rip, hammer. You may use your index and middle finger (or any other couple fingers) to poke the eye, but you don't tend to call it an 'immortal man'.

    The ratio of ingredients is a bit different - he does like his hammers!

    As far as 'technical choreography' goes, there are some techniques that are almost identical. 'Basic Knifehand' is virtually identical to SKK combination #20 with a change in which foot comes forward initially (which gets evened out with a shuffle) and a strike or two difference. Conceptually, they are very similar, almost within the realm of difference seen within any two FVSSD schools or between FVSSD and USSD. Other techniques such as Kempo Jutsu's 'Dodging the lance' are like SKK used to do combination #16 in 'the olden days'. Then there are other techniques that have much less overlap. Even so, I found that learning Kempo Jutsu was a very easy transition, and in the process, I learned things that made my previous SKK material better. The difference was less with the content of the material, and more with 'how it was done'. I was often able to spot techniques as I learned them and identify the origin as "Walter's" based on how much they reminded me of combinations or kempo techniques I already had.

    As far as 'how to do it', there were several changes. First, things that I had been looking for in SKK material and adding myself were standard in Kempo Jutsu. Checks, leg checks, hyper-extensions and so on. They fit so perfectly with the existing SKK material, it was like they had been there all along once I added them.

    The flow was different as well. SKK has a real 'power' element to it on the east coast, probably due to some of the Japanese (shotokan) influences that had been added in in the early years. Changing back to a more 'Hawaiian Kempo' flow brought a lot of my existing SKK back to life. Often, SKK folks will also cross train in EPAK, and mix concepts from the two. Folks who do that often look like they are doing Kempo Jutsu as far as flow. Power + Flow.

    Pedagogically, there are big differences. I latched on to Kempo Jutsu first for the 'flow' aspect, and then for the difference of thought in pedagogy. I know you are familiar with my 'less is more' obsession as of late, and Kempo Jutsu fit right in. It has a very limited curriculum in 'quantity' but it's really dense in principles. All of the techniques can (and are) done off of a wide variety of attacks. They tend to be 'interchangeable' as far as entering / attacking / finishing as you can begin with the entering portion of one technique and seamlessly transition to the middle of another, and then use the end of a third based on what Professor Kimo calls 'targets of opportunity'. Once techniques are learned, they are based more on principle, so if you do 'Spear, shield and hammer' ten times, you will end up with ten different subtle differences due to 'add ins', 'ad-libs', 'variations' and so on based on your need/mood/whether you got stuck in traffic behind a tourist.

    Kempo-jutsu values contact, and I find that Kempo Jutsu schools 'enjoy' a bit more contact than some other SKK schools.

    As far as Kata, there are far fewer in Kempo Jutsu - 5 pinions, several of which you would recognize immediately as variations on what are now called the 'palama sets', shiru kuma and the three lohan sets, plus a couple weapon forms.

    SKK on the other hand, especially since the late '70's / early 80's has a much, much bigger collection. If you go back to SGM. S. George Pesare's curriculum of 7 pinans plus statue of the crane (and maybe one or two more) or the original that F. Villari taught in the 1970's, (6 katas, statue of the crane, honsuki, 5 pinans) there is more similarity. Professor Kimo emphasizes Self Defense (and especially the ability to be spontaneous) much more than kata.

    I often feel like Kempo Jutsu has a feel similar to that of the earliest SKK / Karazenpo Goshinjutsu.

    Are they the same? No. Do they share an obvious root? To me, yes. Sorry this post was so long, but I feel like I still just scratched the surface. I hope it made sense.

  3. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    You are making a lot of sense and I hope that John asks a few more questions and you will continue your story. Thanks again for your devotion to this subject, Kenpo...

    You, like John, are a watershed of information and truly deserve all the credit you are given by others.

    Gary :)
  4. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    You are too kind.

    Thanks Gary. I don't know if I'm a watershed of info - I'm sure there are plenty of folks who know more about these things than I do, just not many of them talk as much as me. :cool:

    It was a nice prompt to think about why I enjoy so much what I do these days though.

  5. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    I hope you don't mind, but I made that post into an article.

    I've posted my (above) answer at my website, as I liked having those thoughts 'on paper'. I hope that's cool.

  6. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    I hear crickets.

    Are there any follow up questions? I just can't believe that I penned 'the perfect answer', so if there are any points you want to have clarified, please let me know. I feel like I've killed a lot of threads lately - I'm going to get a complex. :confused:

    I enjoyed coming up with an answer as it made me reflect on what I do (and why I do it), so I welcome some feedback to help me refine the answer.

  7. karate-dragon

    karate-dragon Valued Member

    What is the history of the name "Immortal Man" strike?
  8. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    Chinese martial poems

    Many forms, especially Chinese sword forms were memorized as 'martial poems', and 'Immortal Man points the way' was a common line.

    How specifically the shortened version got into SKK, I can only guess, and if pressed might say it entered when Larry Mangone got into tai chi, or maybe when Steve Demasco started studying Wah Lum.

  9. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

  10. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    Unrelated to kempo, but there's a hint of truth there

    It seems a little counterintuitive, seeing as it's just a little place in oregon, but many of the things they say have a ring of truth, especially after watching the gymnastics and parlor trick show that passes for 'touring monks', and when a couple of kempo guys become representatives for the shaolin temple.

    If we want to go deeper on this, we should probably start a new thread, though. Although technically, since it was a question for me, I suppose it could be on topic...

  11. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Matt mentions,
    I suppose it could be on topic...

    I think this:
    True, since the topic is "Questions for Matt Barnes".

    Regards, Gary
  12. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    What convenience

    I guess that's the convenience of having a thread named after me. As long as I'm responding to questions, the thread is 'underailable'. Maybe everyone should have their own thread.
    It's the 'me show'. :cool:

  13. RevIV

    RevIV Valued Member

    Mr Bishop,

    You started the thread, was the answer good enough? Just surprised you have not responded to it yet.
  14. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Yes I have been waiting also for some feedback, I am really curious why the question was asked and not seen again...But he is a pretty busy guy.

    Must be the fact that I complemented John :Angel: And he is in recovery :D
  15. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    I didn't respond because Matt answered all the questions I had. I was interested in the evolution.
    I think Matt originally comes from Shaolin Kempo, which would be 4 to 5 generations removed from Kajukenbo.
    Prof. Kimo comes from Prof. Godin, which would make him second generation Kajukenbo and first generation Karazenpo. And apparently has also created his own flavor, Kempo Jutsu Kai.
    We all know that what is now Shaolin Kempo no longer resembles Kajukenbo in techniques or katas. So somewhere down the line (probably with Cerio & Villari), some major changes were made.
    So, since Matt has be exposed to the second and 4th or 5th generations, and has been recording the SKK techniques, I wanted to get his take on what he saw as the differances, both pro and con.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007
  16. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    Thanks for the clarification.

    Fantastic - I did better than I thought I had. If later you need any further clarification, I'm of course glad to oblige.

    Yes, he's certainly removed from Kajukenbo. And yes, the bulk of my training came in the form of Shaolin Kempo.
    The choreography certainly has changed. I still think if you played a video of Kajukenbo techniques,then of Shaolin Kempo, and then for a third video played Tae Kwon Do, or Shorin Ryu, and played 'one of these things is not like the other' like on Sesame street, SKK and Kajukenbo would be lumped together.

    Somewhat alike, somewhat different, but sharing a common root. Somewhat akin to separate species, same genus. But then again, I don't think we needed my answer to draw that conclusion.

    Happy to have helped.

    Last edited: Mar 16, 2007
  17. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Agreed Matt, good answer. - Joe
  18. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Matt, the immortal man strike goes way back in SKK. When I switched to SKK in 1974, it was there. So that would rule out Steve Demasco's timeline, don't know about Larry Mangone though, he was one of Mr. Villari's first wave of black belts. - Joe
  19. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    Yeah, it was just a wild guess.

    Did Professor Cerio use the term? That would shed some light maybe. I've never really contemplated where that particular term entered the system until now.

  20. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Me either Matt. I can't really remember for sure but I want to say yes now that I think of it. I would say Prof. Cerio. - Joe

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