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10:00 PM
@LegionMammal978 Oh, sorry.
Didn't notice that.
@Arjun OK, there was this guy who soiled my father's shoe and then asked for money to clean it. And the rich people who collected the money that beggars had been given. But they were far outnumbered by helpful caring people.
@LegionMammal978 When I was in India, the presence of Israeli tourists was notable. There was a town, Old Manali, which locals were calling New Tel Aviv.
I don't think that there are any places where the general population consists mainly of assholes.
@Phoenix The White House?
Not the point.
10:03 PM
@Phoenix No, you're right. I also believe that by far most people want to be good. Sometimes there efforts don't line up with others'. But that doesn't change their intentions.
@Adám Did you go to other famous places too?
Feel free to downvote: I also (and note who's speaking) believe that many nazis thought they were working for the common good.
Besides, if you happened to be in the white house and asked someone for directions, I'm sure they'd kindly give them to you.
@totallyhuman because you could be South Indian and speak telugu/tamil :P
10:06 PM
What is with my wifi today it keeps dropping for no reason.
something something fundamental attribution error or something but I don't really care about that error or whatever
@Arjun What do you mean by famous? New Delhi? Dehradun? Ambala? Chandigarh?
@Downgoat But they know a little Hindi, most of the time.
@Adám (Possibly) Most Famous: Agra
@Arjun No. I wasn't a tourist. I attended a normal Indian school in Manali.
10:08 PM
@Arjun probably not चुनौती or सफल though :P
@Downgoat True, indeed :P You know Hindi?
Just curious, which countries do you guys live in? (U.S. here)
@Arjun His name is Vihan, which sounds distinctly Indian.
I would assume so.
@LegionMammal978 Live in U.S., but I'm Russian.
@Arjun yeah, but I can't read too well :P
10:10 PM
@LegionMammal978 More interesting: Which countries have you lived in?
How long of a period of time would you consider "lived in"
@LegionMammal978 Goattopia
@Adám Been in the southern U.S. my whole life
@Phoenix You considered it home.
@Downgoat (California)
10:11 PM
@Phoenix a place where you have or had a permanent or semipermanent residence.
@Arjun I started learning while there, but there were way to many "A"s :-P
@Phoenix True, but his location made me think that he must have forgotten or had been born there.
I've lived in Denmark, England, India, Sweden, USA, and Canada. Most of them multiple times.
@Downgoat I do speak Telugu heh
@Adám > That's good, because my main interests are Judaism and APL.
Haven't seen those two in a sentence before
10:14 PM
@LegionMammal978 India
@Adám :o wow, did you pick up the local languages too?
@Adám Yeah, indeed :P But it's natural for the natives, of course.
@Downgoat Some. I only speak Danish, English, Swedish, Yiddish, Hebrew, and a little broken French.
Pick up all the hundreds of languages spoken in India and then you'll most likely be ok
> only
10:15 PM
@Adám Danish and Swedish are almost the same, right?
I speak Hebrew too :)
Also what's Yiddish
@Phoenix Yeah, like C and C++.
Yiddish (ייִדיש, יידיש or אידיש, yidish/idish, lit. "Jewish", pronounced [ˈjɪdɪʃ] [ˈɪdɪʃ]; in older sources ייִדיש-טײַטש Yidish-Taitsh, lit. Judaeo-German) is the historical language of the Ashkenazi Jews. It originated during the 9th century in Central Europe, providing the nascent Ashkenazi community with an extensive Germanic based vernacular fused with elements taken from Hebrew and Aramaic, as well as from Slavic languages and traces of Romance languages. Yiddish is written with a fully vocalized alphabet based on the Hebrew script. The earliest surviving references date from the 12th century...
So, not Hebrew.
Got it.
@Phoenix No. Yiddish and Hebrew are related like C and Perl.
10:17 PM
Linguistics is what it is
@Adám India and Bhutan (for an hour), that too without Visa and Passport
Linguistics. Linguistics never changes (except if it becomes more confusing.)
@Arjun You lived in Bhutan for *one hour*‽
@LegionMammal978 never change ;-)
@MDXF I also has gud answer but up to you to determine if you like it. It's the carbon chain namer but I don't really need too much rep off of that, and other people might want the rep more because I have the most rep out of the people active in that conversation earlier :P
I've spent a month in Russia, but not more than that.
10:19 PM
@Adám o_o linguistics is plural?
All languages are truly impossible
I've only been outside the U.S. about 3 times, to visit grandparents in the UK
@Adám My bad, sorry. But I at least entered the country.
@HyperNeutrino :o why does the bytecount keep growing?
@totallyhuman No, usually not. But maybe if you talk about the linguistics of multiple languages. I was just trying to make a bad joke.
@Arjun like as a layover?
10:21 PM
@Arjun OK, @all how many countries have you been to?
lived in or been to?
@Downgoat THis time, been to.
@Adám 2, India and Bhutan, that too without visa and passport
@Downgoat kinda
@Arjun Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Czechoslovakia, Holland, Belgium, France, Italy, UK, Israel, Kuwait, India, USA, Canada. Maybe more, can't remember. Europe makes it easy.
10:24 PM
I can only think of US, Mexico, UK, France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, India, China, Japan
@ATaco : Make /o_o work everywhere, i.e. in any text box. I use it like everywhere
probably more including stopovers
Russia, U.S., Canada, Mexico, Jamaica, Dominican Republic, Peru, Nicaragua
@MDXF /o_o?
@Adám ಠ_ಠ
10:24 PM
@Adám Install the tacoscripts
I lived so close to Bhutan that both nations' currencies worked for trade at the place that I lived in. Then, my father got transferred from there to where I live. That place was like heaven because of its climate.
ATaco made a Userscript (called a TacoScript) to change /o_o to ಠ_ಠ, because it's amazing
@Phoenix But I like ⍟.⍟ better.
I want to Visit Sweden and Australia.
@Adám Doesn't have the same feel of disapproval.
@Phoenix Those are pretty… far from each other. Any particular reason?
@Phoenix >.<
10:26 PM
@Adám When did you go there?
@Phoenix Apparently Australia doesn't allow you to bring home a Koala :((
@Downgoat And Sweden doesn't allow you to bring home a moose.
is there some C# golfer present here?
@Arjun That's very green. I guess North West is somewhat more brownish. Especially during the monsoon.
10:30 PM
I am trying to golf my own answer
@Adám Yeah
A: Write a program to display directory treehouse

sergiolC#, 277 using System.IO;using System;class P{static int n=0;static void Main(String[]a){for(int i=0;i<n;i++)Console.Write("\t");Console.WriteLine(Path.GetFileName(a[0]));n++;if(Directory.Exists(a[0]))foreach(String f in Directory.GetFileSystemEntries(a[0]))Main(new String[]{f});n--;}} The ungo...

@Arjun That's not what I meant. I Mean Haryana, Punjab, HP, J&K.
"Interesting" Wikimedia chart:
Lists APL as direct ancestor of C, but apparently not related to J or K.
@Adám Not J&K
I'm alive hello
10:36 PM
@ATaco Namaste
@ATaco hello
:| though if you're alive I think I ate your cousin yesterday for dinner, I am so sorry
That's fine, I'm still a cannibal
@Adám I am fascinated by your knowledge. You remind me of Rick Harrison.
@Adám it'd be cool to make one of these for common PPCG languages, even just with webgraphviz.com
@Arjun Huh. I'm not his son.
10:42 PM
I don't understand why his son is called Big Hoss?
^ That's about all I know...
@HelkaHomba Yes. But hard. A lot of PPCG languages were probably influenced by the entirety of the PPCG experience.
@HelkaHomba Then you're mistaken. Jelly was clearly inspired mainly by J.
My bad. Sorry Jelly
@HelkaHomba One could go by whatever the authors say.
@HelkaHomba Is there any way we can make this a collaborative effort? Maybe a Community wiki meta post using the webgraphviz.com format?
OMG! It's 4:17 here and I am still awake. I wonder when will I wake up if I sleep now :O
10:47 PM
@Adám Sure. I was thinking a shared google sheet and/or meta
Although it's not "about the site", that seems something that would be commonly referred to like a FAQ. I really hope it can be considered on topic for meta... (interested to see it either way)
Can someone come up with a good example chart? E.g.:
Perhaps a chart of something like bacterial family history would help, if it's going to need horizontal transfer rather than solely inheritance.
Do it with all of tio
@Adám Here's a Google sheet anyone can edit that could be one way to organize the info: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/…
Then we could write scripts later to turn it into a graph format
10:58 PM
All the bacteria trees I could find just look branching much like any other family tree, so that wasn't much help. Maybe it won't need as much horizontal transfer as I thought
A: What are the relationships between programming languages created by PPCG users

AdámUsing the format of http://www.webgraphviz.com/: digraph G { APL -> J J -> Jelly J -> "J-uby" J -> Jellyfish }

@all ^ please contribute.
@HelkaHomba Nice, but way too much info required. We'll never finish.
OK, time for me to sleep. Busy day tomorrow. We're planning on release next week.
Does webgraphviz allow nodes to be links? That would allow linking to the meta answer for that language or to a site, to reduce the amount of info needed in the graph
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

DaffyA Cheater's Quine code-golf internet networking Overview Making quines is hard, so lets cheat. Make a request to this website and pull down the source code for your question, then print it. Rules The printed code must be exact. No extra characters or whitespace unless your source code co...

@trichoplax It doesn't need links. Links for every language can be found on TIO.
@Adám I was thinking a spreadsheet with just two columns for Parent and Child but it seems harder to keep track of and add metadata to
Since we'd want to do this node by node, not edge by edge
11:07 PM
I guess there's a few with multiple parents too
@trichoplax Certainly, like Ruby+J→J-uby.
@Adám Not essential I just thought it would be nice to have the link right there rather than needing to go elsewhere
11:20 PM
Q: What are the relationships between programming languages created by PPCG users

AdámPrompted by this. We already know which languages were created by PPCG users. Clearly language authors are inspired by each other and by existing practical languages. What are these relationships? Looking for something like this.

Happened Automatically. Your edit was applied just before I hit the Save button. @Adám
how can I increase interest in my koth?
Are there barriers to entry? Would a simple example answer help with any boilerplate (if you haven't already done that)?
@Arjun Has happened to me to. No worries.
@trichoplax already made examples
the boiler plate is python simple
11:30 PM
@ComradeSparklePony Happened with you too, I guess
I imagine the main barrier would be koth level complexity + python which is not as popular as java and now I see why people make java koths ;_;
BrainFlakClassic -> BrainFlakClassic
Interrobangs don't look very nice on my screen...
I think that should be BrainFlakClassic -> BrainFlak
Oh nevermind, it is now
no it should be brainflak -> brainflak
also maybe lisp should be mentioned or something
11:34 PM
@ATaco I don't think that's just your screen...
@Adám I messed up, fixed now
as an influence (not just because they have a bunch of parens, this is not a joke)
@ATaco Try wiping your screen.
yeah interrobangs look a bit out of place a lot of the time tbh
comparison: ‽?
On a Stack Exchange site in a galaxy far far way… EDIT WARS!
11:35 PM
(Also greenshot's displaying the cursor will be the death of me)
Is anyone tempted to add English -> for most of these?
I really don't think we need half of those
@trichoplax do you have (more) koth advice
@ATaco I'm beginning to understand how JavaScript became the mess it is:
Take out HyperTalk, Self, and AWK since those aren't connected to anything (and likely never will be)? We don't want the entire chronology of programming languages here
11:38 PM
I don't really know - I've seen KotHs I thought would attract huge amounts of attention just settle down quickly. I can't predict it. If you have a link I'll have a glance in case I can think of something
Q: Dungeon of botdom

Destructible Lemon– of crisis and martyrdom (that's the subtitle because subtitles are cool) In this king-of-the-hill challenge in python (yup; you need go no farther to know you may not submit in java), you need to create a bot that plays a game very similar to welcome to the dungeon Rules You submit a class,...

oh my gosh who is adding 10 predecessors to every non-ppcg-created language
@ETHproductions I think we should just let them be now. We can always cull later. But if we take them out now, someone will just insert them again.
Ah, good point
11:40 PM
Should we say eventually we only want non-ppcg-created languages as lhs languages?
Oh, wait. Aren't we supposed to do that?
No, the point is to see where PPCG-created languages came from, not every language ever
I thought it was for all languages. Damn
May I correct?
I mean, if they're already on there, you can connect them, but don't go adding hundreds of languages that aren't related to any PPCG-created ones :P
@Arjun Just leave them for now, we'll prune them once it calms down a little
It is mostly interesting to see the ancestors of parents of PPCG languages.
@trichoplax lhs?
11:42 PM
C is already on there, and JS is already on there, so it's fine to connect those, for example
@Adám left hand side?
@ETHproductions Then I have done nothing wrong
What we don't want is languages that are almost completely unrelated to any PPCG langs
@Adám Sorry - Left Hand Side
@trichoplax Meaning top-level? Origins?
11:45 PM
I meant having only non-ppcg-created languages only as direct parents of ppcg-created languages. That is, a non-ppcg-created language can only appear as a parent, not as a child
@ETHproductions then completely remove Pascal, C#, ObjC, LISP, even Perl?
@ETHproductions Every language is related to every other, IMO. We need a clearer definition for "connected to PPCG".
@Adám Ah yes - origins - that's much more succinct, thank you
@trichoplax Clearly JS needs to be on the chart, even though it is a child (and should be shown as such).
@betseg Perl is connected to JavaScript and JavaScript is connected to Java and Japt.
11:46 PM
Lua's relation to C++ is flimsy.
Certainly connected to PPCG, then.
Removing Perl would actually cause no harm to the tree
Since JavaScript and Python both have other ancestors
@trichoplax I'd say it is too hard to weed out in this. At least for now. The only current requirement should be that all origin nodes must be non-PPCG>
I feel Perl is one of the original golfing languages, and deserves its podium.
Hmm, true, I guess
Are there any PPCG langs inspired directly by Perl?
11:48 PM
@Adám Why? some languages don't really have outside influences
Are we really sure Pyramid Scheme was inspired by Scheme?
@WheatWizard Ah, true. Never mind then.
@ETHproductions Removing every language that is not inspired by another language will make the tree not exist at all.
FYI, CnR challenge incoming at 00:00 UTC: Implement the CairdSort. Be ready!
@Arjun That wasn't my point, but... let's just leave it for now and figure out what to do in a bit, after the edits settle down
11:50 PM
@DestructibleLemon It might help to compartmentalise the different parts of the wording. At present it's meandering, which can work well for prose but makes comprehension slower for a spec. Ideally I'd be able to see a section for the game rules, separate from any parenthetical asides, and a separate section for how the input and output work. Unfortunately, making a KotH spec accessible requires golfing...
@ETHproductions I think Element.
@trichoplax hmmm
@ETHproductions May I add more such languages as they seem completely legit to me?
@Arjun Yes.
I say for now just accept anything that is an ancestor of a PPCG lang
11:51 PM
@Adám Okay.
@DestructibleLemon Not sure if that's a good hmmm or a bad hmmm... Simply adding in more headings would make more people likely to read it
Was 05AB1E inspired at all by CJam, GolfScript, etc.?
@trichoplax will consider
RProgN2 contains a lot more outside influence than RProgN did.
Also, what's "I"?
11:54 PM
ah, ok
@Adám seems like a very... current language
@DestructibleLemon One instant thing - I'd remove the example bot since it is already competing - it can just be in an answer so the spec looks shorter and more inviting.
@ETHproductions Marshall (my colleague) doesn't have a PPCG account, but I post his solutions.
@trichoplax o ok
11:55 PM
@DestructibleLemon Yeah, although development has slowed down since we hired the author.
ok do I need to post it with italics
ok there
@Adám are you pretending not to get the joke?
Languages that may need to be added: Alice, Brachylog, Burlesque, Chip, ezfuck, Funciton, Grime, Jolf, Labyrinth, Logicode, Marbelous, Minkolang, Ostrich, Pip, Pyke, Retina, Seriously/Actually, Snails, SnakeEx, Vitsy, 𝔼𝕊𝕄𝕚𝕟
(not sure if some are already in the chart)
@DestructibleLemon Current because I? It took me a while...
@ETHproductions At some point we should sort the list.
Yes, definitely....
11:57 PM
@Adám But on what basis?
@DestructibleLemon I didn't get it. Now I did.
@Arjun Strictly alphabetically.
IMHO, going back to C is truly far enough, unless there are any PPCG langs directly inspired by pre-C langs
@Adám "now I did?"
Maybe a Stack Snippet could present the list sorted twice - once by parent and once by child so it's easy to find either
Whoops, flipped the graph.
11:59 PM
@DestructibleLemon I had to go back and read the log. current.
@Adám Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about the chart. Will the chart ever be filtered?
@Arjun What do you mean by "filtered"?
