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1:01 PM
does anyone have remaining power to dock at top some info who are all moderators who resigned so far? its annoying to run around looking for count
or all moderators resigned?
@Veljko89 You will find the pinned message containing a feed link useful.
@Veljko89 don't be silly
was hoping for some drama :(
@Veljko89 You're making me wish chat had downvotes.
1:03 PM
this is not a drama swapshop
@jpmc26 I can’t speak to specifics but from what I observed it would not have been prudent to handle it in any other fashion
please no
@GeorgeStocker I greet that with extreme scepticism
People I trust who have the facts have made unambiguous statements to the contrary, and I can't think of anything SE could realistically do to convince me otherwise right now
outside of releasing some form of evidence, which I know they wont do
@Magisch *shakes magic 8-ball* I can't disclose any details but totes no other way
@OrangeDog this simply isn't true, unless the workers sign an NDA the discussions they have about actions taken in the workplace are protected according to The National Labor Relations Act.
this is why people can sh*t talk their companies on social media
@Magisch if I could speak freely about it I would. I think speaking freely about it is better than what has happened.
1:05 PM
Even Ry who suggested "good riddance" of those stepping down, said Monica should probably not have been sacked
@GeorgeStocker You will forgive me then that I can't take your word for it
Nothing personal and no commentary on your proficiency or trustworthiness
@Magisch I don’t expect you to. And unfortunately I can’t be more clear in what I’m saying due to the moderator agreement that’s in place.
I'm willing to wait for any official announcements, but I really am at loss at what they would be.
Is there anything official coming?
Because, you know, 10 witnesses claiming unfair treatment
1:09 PM
I can say that while I am unclear as to why the timing was what it was; the act itself is something I support; even knowing the fallout from it. I hope and wish SE will be more transparent.
I think this whole thing is pretty weird, and I don't think I'm going to keep contributing or working on the site until I see some assurance that it's not going to crash and burn in chaos. This has all been a really bad look for a site that depends so much on user content.
Everyone heard the splash when the rock hit the pond. Everyone sees the ripples and hears the splash. No one saw the stone. We are left to infer the size of the stone from what we see and hear. We don’t know if it was a small stone thrown really fast or a large stone dropped in. We are left to wonder.
@GeorgeStocker hu ?
Depending on your past experience you may infer certain things from the ripples or the sound; but without SE telling us the size of the stone we can’t say for certain
1:11 PM
That's pretty poetic, but falls apart when one considers the thrower of the stone is just standing there, refusing to offer any description even though they easily could. The only mystery here is one of artificial design.
@GeorgeStocker Surely you see how this looks for the rest of us. To most of us on the outside, monica was civil and welcoming to a fault. As in, way more then many of us thought appropriate. So unless you're making things up (which I don't think you are, you're not the person who would), something egregious must have gone on, or there's some extreme fundamental schism in the mod community
I wonder to which date of events you're talking, this week-end of the events which lead to this week-end events
@Magisch both is not out of the realm of possibility.
are you a poet?
@Magisch fundamental schism is no news
See meta moderation
1:12 PM
@GeorgeStocker I'm sorry, but from what I've read about this and from the direction I've been seeing SO go the past year or so, I can only conclude from your statement that you are essentially opposed to someone being able to live out their values and beliefs on this site in peace.
@GeorgeStocker would you say Gilles's decription is wrong ?
More cynical people then me might even infer SE ridded themselves of a critic in a convenient way.
This reminds me so much of work. The upper management thinks they have to maintain this air of mystery, not because it's useful to leave employees in the dark, but because having forbidden knowledge is the thing that differentiates an executive from an engineer.
And nothing, absolutely nothing that is out there in public right now contradicts that view.
@Tensibai link me to Gilles again? I read it but I was also sick this weekend so most of the weekend is hazy
1:13 PM
Q: I am resigning as a moderator

GillesI am stepping down as a moderator, and you deserve to know why. I cannot condone actions that the company has recently taken (behind close doors, although I expect more will become public soon). Social life means being confronted to different points of view. This is especially true on in an inte...

If nothing else, we can agree that the messaging around this was handled badly
@Magisch as is usual for this company
@Magisch because the only people that can contradict that view are still moderators or employees, whom are forbidden from sharing specifics
The information that is public right now about the underlying cause is not that helpful in my opinion, and I don't think you get a good view of the situation from that.
1:14 PM
@GeorgeStocker Except those that resigned?
What are they going to do? Fire you and tell no one why?
That would be terrible.
@GeorgeStocker But that policy is borne from the company itself. Why do they prefer this rampant unchecked speculation to coming clean?
@Druckles Not even, well I don't expect anyone resigning to break the rules of TL secrecy
@Magisch hate to be boring and not participating in the drama, but can you/other RO's have another think about the notification overlay feed that's setup here? I've always found those somewhat annoying (fairly sure I'm not the only one) - is that something you can look at when you've time?
@Druckles if they resigned they’re obviously not forbidden from sharing specifics, but they haven’t. I find it interesting that out of everyone who left, no one is sharing specific quotes that would provide evidence.
1:16 PM
@Magisch there's George's word :>
@JonClements Yvette set that up, I don't think any of us have specific attachment to it
screenshots or quotes showing it. I would expect to see that; I do not. I’m left seeing ripples in a pond.
@GeorgeStocker See above, not because we're resigning we throw everything by the windows
@GeorgeStocker I think most other people find it frustrating, not interesting.
^ frustrating
1:16 PM
plot twist, SO starts to charge usage of library, user set up monthly subscription of 10 euros, Monica and other moderators were against this idea, but SO needs money ...
@GeorgeStocker Well, that's mostly against TL rule, so we do not.
@Magisch Monica was a moderator on Judaism, and (from her announcement) Jewish. She could in theory still be "civil and welcoming to a fault" almost everywhere, but have a blind-spot in an area covered by religious conservationism.
Magisch has made a change to the feeds posted into this room
@Veljko89 Quick, download a copy of all posts on the site!
@Raedwald No even a religious problem, that I can say
1:18 PM
@YvetteColomb :squint: I'll bite harder
@JonClements I changed the new meta posts feed to be inline rather then on top
Woah, 74 people O.o
@Magisch great - thank you... I'm not adverse to the ticker feed thingy, but I've just always found it worse than actual feeds kind of thing... gets a pain when you're on mobile or something... but... heck, if people miss it, just put it back or something :)
Wow this room is crowded
1:21 PM
@Raedwald There is no possible way to never say anything hurtful when speaking honestly. Giles' description indicates that Monica was not blind to the potential for hurt, but made a strong effort to mitigate that nonetheless. SO's old value system was to assume good faith in such situations. At most such a situation should require moving the discussion somewhere where people likely to be hurt would not be present, shielding them from it.
@JonClements I dont think anyone is passionate about topbars vs inline
@Raedwald In light of that, the only thing I can conclude is that SO is fundamentally opposed to anyone even expressing concerns about being able to live according to their faith.
Too often I get this impression that the Code of Conduct should have explicitly stated to "assume good intentions" from the start. The old Be Nice policy had it, in fact.
What you can infer is that the next version of the CoC will be prescriptive and binding (or be removed/suspended)
@E_net4theMeta-RemoveR I think it was removed intentionally.
1:23 PM
It's just occurred to me, on rereading her message, perhaps they were requiring moderators to act within a certain timeframe, which conflicts with Shabbat observance.
There is an old saying that feels relevant: when someone shows you who they are, believe them.
If George believes they acted correctly, then I have to conclude he must hold a similar value system to what I described above. And that is a value system of intolerance and exclusion.
@OrangeDog In that case I'd expect them to resume communications after sabbath.
Was gonna say, if shabbat prevents them from doing something a simple "I will not be there due to my beliefs" should be perfectly fine in most situations
@JohnDvorak no I mean that's maybe what the dispute was about. That the CoC as written required her to work during Shabbat.
1:25 PM
(assuming it's far enough ahead of time to give the company time to put a contingency plan in place)
@OrangeDog Not that :)
@OrangeDog Ah. That would be ... short sighted.
where is that XKCD when we need it
@GeorgeStocker assuming you had time to read it now: do you think Gille's description of the events is plain wrong ?
1:26 PM
@OrangeDog I doubt that's it. Moderator has never been a 24/7 job, and having enough on a given site to avoid regular outages due to the rest of peoples life (and people going on vacation/etc) has been a big part of why we always try to have a decent number of mods/site.
@JohnDvorak not sure it's that xkcd comic George was referring to ;-)
@Tensibai they are colored by their impression of events. I disagree with the characterizations made. And much like anyone’s viewpoint, it will be colored by their own judgment and outlook.
Uh, that road goes both ways I think
@GeorgeStocker "Only a Sith speaks in absolutes." People are amalgamations of complex beliefs, desires, and values. Everyone holds values that are difficult to reconcile with each other. SO used to be a place designed for allowing people with different viewpoints and lifestyles to coexist. It sounds to me like that is no longer the case.
Well, I fully agree with it, I've the same impression of events, and the same feeling about the behavior (for different reasons than Monica's one)
1:29 PM
Jumping into any sort of conclusion is not useful IMO, but that doesn't help the skepticism and mistrust.
whooa ... wait now, I thought we are agreed SO is evil !?!
I'm willing to wait until further information is available, but the storms in chat will rage on even without me.
whats up with changing now to wait for more facts
@GeorgeStocker This one? xkcd.com/1357
@jpmc26 Ha ha :) I don't know if quoting Star Wars is really going to help to make a point, but I'll be following these developments with great interest.
1:30 PM
@Veljko89 The problem is they didn't use to alienate the community. This sort of thing is either very recent or very emphasized at this stage.
I could describe what happened as I saw it, and you’d be left with a wildly different impression of what transpired. I don’t believe anyone is being untruthful, but I believe there’s a lot of subjective interpretstion of events instead of objective reporting of events.
My viewpoint is colored by the lack of communication that has been going on for months. If all one sees are actions without explanation one assumes intention. And when stuff happening fits that viewpoint, it reinforces it.
I wouldn’t do that without screenshooting the source, so that’s why I can’t really say anything specific
Did developers make a mistake by investing in this particular platform? I think we all agreed and continue to agree that the resource itself is useful, but why didn't we invest this into something modeled on the OSS community rather than a corporation with secrets and policies of non-disclosure?
@GeorgeStocker Erm, so it is a "let's agree to disagree" sort of thing?
1:31 PM
We really need SOinc to start talking...
IMO, we really need there to not be an SOinc
You're already predicting our reaction, so you're actually affirming the suspicions.
@M.A.R. we agree to trust the judgment of the group we prefer
@M.A.R. if I had Gilles point of view it may be completely accurate. I do not. This is a situation where everyone can see the same set of events and interpret them wildly differently. Without citing the source and providing all of the screenshots and evidence, we are left to piece together based on whom we trust, not what the evidence says
@Gimby Next on PBS (Peanut Butter Sucks): Star Wars is overrated.
1:34 PM
@GeorgeStocker Maybe you could recheck the TL transcript starting sept 18th
Why don't they release this new CoC or just tell us what actually happened in the chat?
Someone, start another hot topic! Uh, like, that new album from DragonForce or something.
So there is not a smidgen of objectivity in finding undermining years of commendable volunteer effort appalling?
@GeorgeStocker with respect, I do not trust you. What I have seen of your posts always goes against common sense and community, and sides with the almighty SO whom we should trust
@OrangeDog I’m not looking for your trust on this. I am here because magisch said no one supports the decision that was made. I support the decision that was made, even though I have questions on its timing and tenor.
1:37 PM
Q: How is the CoC about to change?

KevinIn this discussion, ex-moderator Monica Cellio describes a change to the Code of Conduct: A director had dropped into the room to announce an upcoming change to the Code of Conduct; unlike the rest of the CoC, this rule mandates specific, positive actions. I raised some issues with the format...

@PeterHaddad Because they haven't finished writing and editing the new CoC?
@PeterHaddad A few weeks ago, there was a user on SO Meta who strongly objected to their (review, I believe it was) info being shown and discussed in reponse to their question (rant, really). We saw a "privacy" policy shift after that: nothing will be shown or discussed publicly (even though it's something we could all see in the user's profile. I suspect this is part of the underlying issue with getting more information.
Oh, I had totally forgotten about that
@ModusTollens that’s the unfortunate side effect of remaining silent on specifics. It lets people draw their own conclusions based on what they already think and whom they already trust.
Not on what the evidence shows. And unfortunately that means that (especially in real life, it here too) people are biased against positions that threaten their beliefs and their own interpretation of events
Yet no-one has described it from the other side. The situation has been pretty well described from the one side, albeit without screenshots or quotes. But the most that has been said from the other side is:
* I agree with the decision and
* We are doing it for the greater good.
1:40 PM
@GeorgeStocker Honestly? Yes, I trust a dozen exemplary moderators.
That's what's rubbing everyone off the wrong way.
@Druckles It would be a bit of a self own to post screenshots and get fired for supporting the decision.
i dont blame mods supporting the decision in any way for not being specific
their hands are tied by SE
it's SEs fault for putting them in this situation through no fault of their own
And precisely because I don’t want to fall into the trap of interpreting the events over laying them bare, I don’t want to give specifics (also it’s against the rules for me)
I'm not ever going to ask you to share specifics, but please don't rub salt in fresh wounds.
if I had my druthers the entire chain of events from when it originated (longer ago than has been indicated) until today would be released, verbatim.
1:42 PM
@GeorgeStocker The evidence here is a wealth of witnesses, and that speaks against your narrative. I' can't wait for the part that supports it.
@Druckles exactly. The same thing happens with abuse allegations. A child says, "This teacher abused me", and gives lots of details, but the teacher and the school are told by their lawyers to shut up and say nothing until the courts tell them to. The public then hears only one side of the story, the one that (conveniently enough) sells newspapers.
@GeorgeStocker I didn't ask for screenshots or quotes. I was talking about describing the situation.
If you can't help us look at it from the other POV, then what is the use of this entire discussion?
@GeorgeStocker My interpretation of events was heavily influenced by your recent moderation decisions, to be honest. I respect you as a person, but seeing you moderate with confidence against well established community guidelines without any consequences and without reconsideration gave me the first whiff of a gut feeling that got reinforced over time.
Your stance is understood, you support the decision. If you can't explain why, continuing with this discussion is not productive.
1:43 PM
There are two separate issues, the reason for the firing itself, and the way the entire thing was handled. A lot of the complaints from other moderators are about the second part, not all of them disagree with the first part.
@JohnDvorak Some of the relevant evidence will be private communications between SE and Monica. SE will never release those, for good reasons.
(And I respect opposing viewpoints when mine is very vague to begin with)
I don’t know if you indicated it, but several folks have indicated they wouldn’t trust me even if I did say what happened. what would be the good in that play? I’d rather the evidence was formally released so no one would have to take my word for it.
@Raedwald but they're weakening their case that way
@MadScientist this is accurate. Though we are not privy to all of the events of the second part.
1:45 PM
@GeorgeStocker That's exactly what I'm saying.
@GeorgeStocker But it won't be, correct?
@GeorgeStocker Even if I assume the best-possible actions from SE on the parts I don't know, I still find the way it was handled terrible
@GeorgeStocker your evasiveness is one of the reasons many do not trust you
@OrangeDog As I understand it, he's just bound by the NDA
@M.A.R. I restate what I said before. I’m here because magisch indicated no moderators support the decision. I support the decision (with all of the caveats I indicated previously in this chat)
@JohnDvorak Ironic, isn’t it?
1:47 PM
@GeorgeStocker Just the decision or even the way it was executed?
Well, I know the part where my stance is the firmest is indeed that years of volunteer work are thrown away just like that, so yes, the second part.
@GeorgeStocker Are you victim blaming?
@JohnDvorak then why doesn't he just say that and stop talking?
The fact that there is an NDA somewhat negates the idea of a community, doesn't it? It's a company, not a community, easy to forget that when they're constantly going on about community.
@OrangeDog ... he is saying that.
1:48 PM
@StephanS Oh don't throw that s___ around here, we don't need that
11 mins ago, by George Stocker
There is no NDA
If there is no NDA, then "I can't talk about it" is simply a false statement
@GeorgeStocker "druthers"? Can you translate that to non-native-english-speak?
@ChrisBaker not sure about that
1:49 PM
40 mins ago, by George Stocker
To change tack, I just read Aza's resignation and, well

> It’s really very difficult to understand from the outside what the issue is and why any of it is relevant to moderation.

I've never seen anything I'd consider transphobia on SE. Maybe because all the mods that left have been efficient at removing it?
@Cerbrus Google knows the word :) I certainly didn't. "one's preference in a matter."
If anyone wants to go far enough back in the transcript (yesterday before-noon, I think it was) Mithrandir - before going off-line for 50 hours for private reasons - said to be careful with conspiracy theories and pouring oil on the fire. I got the impression he may have been thinking along similar lines to George. Unfortunately, many peopel were out polishing their cars, etc. on Sunday and came a bit late to this party, so may have missed that...
An NDA is not the only means by which employees can be bound. There are general laws about privacy. There are employment contract terms. There are ethical concerns.
@ChrisBaker It's a bit more complex than that. Several mods have posted their summaries of the events, there is no explicit rule against that. But copying the actual chat transcripts, or something close to that would be against the rules (which don't have any legal teeth, as far as I know)
1:50 PM
@Gimby That makes no sense in the context though
@OrangeDog That seemed unrelated, AFAICT
George has a preference...
@M.A.R. hence the change of tack
@Raedwald if someone is under work contract with a company they are not an employee, they are a contractor.
@OrangeDog I've never seen transphobia on SO. But why would I? There are other sites where transphobia is on topic.
1:53 PM
@Raedwald IDK, the same reason we've seen immigration questions on SO?
@MadScientist there’s a signed moderator agreement that prevents that
@Raedwald Bad code is on topic for SO, but that doesn't mean we'd encourage mods to write bad code on SO...
@MadScientist No real legal teeth, worst being getting suspended network wide. But breaking the rules of 'not copy anything out of TL' would set a bad example and breaking the trusts other mods puts in us when talking there
Well, what people can be angry about (and are) is how little the volunteering effort of the moderators meant in the end, apparently. Monica states (I'm paraphrasing) that they were handling flags when it happened, without any previous warning, even in private. We would assume they tried to mitigate damage and argue her case as good as possible, but that's not the point. At least what I gather from the events.
@GeorgeStocker that doesn't cover the TL secrecy as far as I remember
1:54 PM
@Raedwald so is the problem that questions can posted to lit about transphobia, or that they can't, or that they don't get moderated well?
@MadScientist I’ll double check it now but as I understand it it does.
@Raedwald I agree. Most of what's going down here comes from other, non-SO sites. I think Robert Harvey was the only SO-regular who resigned? SO got rid of non-programming stuff during the past year. Perhaps this is a reason why we have so much difficulty getting our heads around what could happen - we don't live in that non-coding SE world...
@GeorgeStocker well, it could fall under "and other moderator policies made available to me"
@OrangeDog I know nothing about the Lit SE site. But literature can be about being trans. And once that happens, transphobia will come out of the woodwork.
wait wait wait we're talking about moderators under employment law when moderator aren't paid, so the "moderators agreement" is an NDA
1:56 PM
@MadScientist correct. and the policy for not copying stuff out of mod-only spaces has been in place since the beginning
@StephanS we aren’t. I’m not sure who is
@MadScientist it does.
Although right now I don’t know where to find all of the written policies. I’ll ask about that.
look through the chat. I wouldn't have said it if I didn't see it
@StephanS Depending on where they are "employed" as volunteers they may well be seen as unpaid staff depending on the number of hours they work (they'll work enough), and as such may be bound to whatever contract they sign, irrespective of if they get paid. It's more complicated than "is paid"/"isn't paid"
SE is based in New York this isn't the case
@NickA it isn't more complicated than is paid/ is paid, under employment law you are an employee, or you aren't an employee.
Something can be wrong even if it is legal and compliant with an explicit agreement. No need to split hairs on whether something is an NDA or employment contract.
2:02 PM
Policy word for word: Moderators on Stack Exchange sites have access to a special, moderator-only chat room. It's intended for discussing moderator-specific issues that can't (per the mod agreement and common decorum) be discussed openly on one of the Meta sites.
The one rule you need to remember:

Don't migrate messages out of this room. Don't quote them, don't copy-paste them, don't take screenshots and then link to them
@SamuelLiew can you post a link to that policy in the blue room?
When the site was redone I lost where all this stuff was kept
@GeorgeStocker Isn't the link to the policy guarded by the policy? :P
@GeorgeStocker I'm not sure the per-site mod rooms are covered by any specific rules, especially as the mods generally create them themselves
@JohnDvorak First rule about the policy, don't talk about the policy
@MadScientist I wanted him to post it so I could visit that page.
2:05 PM
They do contain PII in general, so that would still be required to be kept secret
If this is your first night at Mod Madness, you HAVE to ban someone.
@MadScientist there's even stricter guidelines for pii, which states you cannot access them flippantly without proper reason, and all access to pii is logged
> As a Moderator, you cannot start audio.
@M.A.R. As an advertisement, knock yourself out.
Q: Translation Golf XLVIII — We're sorry to see you go

walenWelcome to a new edition of the game! If this is your first time, there's some info for beginners at the end of this post. This week's text is taken from what looks like a standard canned response: We understand there are some folks upset about the decision made this week. We aren’t going ...

Sara's response has reached memetic status.
2:10 PM
Can someone make a similar challenge for PPCG?
Then it's just a boring compression problem
That's more vinegar than I can handle.
@NickA it would be closed as a duplicate of - fittingly - never gonna give you up.
@OrangeDog output: No.?
And now I am forever scarred by noticing the similarity between Sara's response and Rick's song.
2:12 PM
@OrangeDog Lmao, I forgot about that compression issue (@JohnDvorak ta)
@JohnDvorak Frankly, the post's status suits it well.
Ah, my display name has finally updated.
Locking that post is bad. You can't deal with the negative backslash so you lock the post so nobody can downvote it? Seems like those tinfoil hat wearer were right.
@JohannesKuhn What do you mean, has it been locked again?
I've seen it locked once, and then unlocked with a mod notice in the comments.
Last time I checked it was locked. Might be a few hours ago.
2:16 PM
@JohnDvorak On the bright side, that means it can finally get the downvotes it deserves
It's not locked now
@Zoe That's not a nice point of view. Sara's just the messenger.
@JohnDvorak What do you mean, downvotes are offensive now? :)
Yeah, it's not locked. Locking it is a bad idea. Let people cast their votes, votes don't hurt anybody (and if someone feels hurt by them... well...)
2:17 PM
@E_net4theMeta-Skeptic touché
@JohnDvorak I'm not feeling very nice today. Besides, "just the messenger" doesn't apply. We're talking about the director of Q&A. If a director doesn't have any influence over what's said, the company structure is horribly broken.
@JohnDvorak she's the Director of Public Q&A. She's in charge. She's not the messenger.
That ^
@E_net4theMeta-Skeptic Maybe 300+ downvotes are though :)
@Zoe is she a director? TIL!
2:18 PM
That's at least what the profile says.
Tim's the messenger
That does paint a new picture about her ... 1yo message.
@JohannesKuhn post was locked by another mod for reasons mentioned in my edit, and not to protect the answer. Kindly read the update.
Passes @Zoe her popcorn
@Gimby I would not be surprised if, after peak US hours, this reaches quadruple digits, tbh. It is on HN
2:19 PM
@OrangeDog Can't tell if Hot Fuzz reference or...
@Gimby That would mean that each downvote is one 300th of an offensive statement.
@NickA TimPost
@SébastienRenauld ouch
@E_net4theMeta-Skeptic I don't think you can math that
@NickA Thank you! 💜
2:19 PM
@OrangeDog Tim Messenger is a character in Hot Fuzz.
@SébastienRenauld You mean the orange site? Some folks know not to visit that.
@SamuelLiew I know why it was locked. Still, locking a post prevents casting a vote. And this is the bad part.
@Gimby Yeah sorry, I do linear modelling too often. :[
I like slender models.
@GeorgeStocker I do assume stackoverflow.com/help/mod-tl ? (mod restricted of course)
2:20 PM
And if you want to argue this way, how can I be sure that there hasn't been a "let's just find a justification to lock this post, so it won't attract any further downvotes"?
I prefer not to have that discussion.
BTW, what changed about the Feeds?
I saw Magisch doing something but forgot about it
The hypocrisy is real though
@OrangeDog OK, that's not a downvote so it can be offensive
@M.A.R. getting inline instead of hovering on top now
Wasn't it always, Oh, you mean for all posts?
2:22 PM
"If a contributor cross-posted the same answer this many times on other questions around the network they would be barred from posting answers." (meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/389906/…) is spot on
It's kinda embarrassing because my name is slanted.
:( My comment on Sara's answer stating that it's accusatory without backing it up in the nicest way possible got removed, any clue why? It's relevant to the answer and not against the CoC, right?
I . . . honestly don't know.
I'm too juvenile for the lawyery matters but it always seems like these things can be twisted to mean anything and you can only be right if you're the enforcer.
Case in point
Rehashing a previous comment ?
And it's gone :-(
2:25 PM
@ErikA I kept a screenshot of that one. Almost saw that coming. :(
@E_net4theMeta-Skeptic There's also the meta comment archive
comments have been preserved there
There's the having your say and all that but I find it hard to add anything to the comments under that answer.
@Zoe Indeed, but as we know, they can be removed from there as well.
They clarify the issue, both stances, the downvotes, and why so few Gandhi movies are made.
yeah, that's why I downloaded the internet archive addon
2:26 PM
@ErikA I'll ping the mod for you but no promises
Easy to retrieve in the meta archive I think
Thanks Samuel!
@Zoe I originally did because i.stack.imgur was blocked but now I can see images.
And it still looks boring
@Tensibai Yup, it's here. But I'd like to see the issue addressed, that obviously won't happen if the comment gets removed
Samuel The Helper
2:28 PM
chat.stackoverflow.com/search?q=389908&room=197298 <- all comments under sara's answer (If I didn't mess up)
I'll save pages with highly relevant info just in case it's attempted deleted. Did that with Aza's post
@ErikA I removed it. It was inflammatory.
@GeorgeStocker How?
why am I not surprised...
@OrangeDog Because patterns
2:29 PM
Oh boy, I don't want any part of this discussion.
I'm taking a nap.
@GeorgeStocker Thanks for clarifying. I obviously disagree, but let's leave it at that. There's probably nothing to be gained by discussing it.
On the plus side, this series of events has aroused the comparisons with literature and other media: Nineteen Eighty Four, the Animal Farm, now the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Wonder what's next.
@ErikA that’s a fair assessment. Needless to say due to the comments that post is receiving anything is subject to removal.
@ErikA I disagree. George has expressed his agreement with SO's course of action. His explanation for removing it would be enlightening regarding his views in general.
@E_net4theMeta-Skeptic Alice in the Wonderland?
2:31 PM
@JohnDvorak I see what you did there
@E_net4theMeta-Skeptic as long as it's not fifty shades of grey it's okay
@jpmc26 Well, don't do it on my behalf, but discuss away if you feel like it.
@JohnDvorak We're all mad here
And that's okay
@E_net4theMeta-Skeptic Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day
2:34 PM
This was your comment that I removed:
in Meta Stack Overflow Comment Archive, 4 hours ago, by Boson
You've made a strong accusation against a person I trust in this answer without any justification. Please either back it up, or remove it altogether. Such accusations are against the very CoC you're trying to defend, and set a bad example for what's acceptable. — Erik A 1 min ago
@Veskah Not all...
It was in the “unhelpful or unkind” realm and a bit inflammatory. The latter part sent it over the edge.
I can imagine some of us here not agreeing with the post being a violation of the CoC. But still...
@GeorgeStocker And, again, how is that inflammatory?
Okay, so stating SE is going against their own rules is bad?
@Zoe You must be. Otherwise, you wouldn't have come
2:36 PM
In that case, please ban me now and get it over with.
It said "Please", it was to the point, and it was defending someone who was wrongly fired. Who are you if you're not going to back up your former colleagues?
And I don't care if you ban me. Go ahead, feel free to.
I'm not taking any sides, but please don't start bashing each other. We are kinda in the same boat together and there is nothing to be gained in division.
But it'll make me feel better
@Veskah No, it won't. Because the ship still has a metaphorical home in the metaphorical proprietary hull only SE can fix
Can we get a scapegoat to bash in here?
2:43 PM
@GeorgeStocker Demanding that an insinuation of misconduct by a notable figure in the community be either substantiated or retracted strikes me as completely reasonable. If it's a fair characterisation of their behaviour, it can be substantiated. If it's a baseless smear, then it absolutely is a CoC violation; that hardly seems like a wrong thing to point out.
In understand that not everything related to a specific person can be openly debated. What's revealing to me is that SO top management is neither here discussing, nor with the mods who resigned. Does that mean mods and the community are considered unimportant now ?
Yes, that's what it means
@DenysSéguret Yes, they officially stated this some weeks ago
@DenysSéguret with house of cards consequences if it is the case
@DenysSéguret Most likely. There's two ways to read this; they don't care, and they care a little, but are working on a reply
@Tensibai wait, really?
2:45 PM
@GeorgeStocker I find it strange to call that "inflammatory." Strongly worded? A little. But it's a call for more information when there is much information contrary to what the post claims. The closing part is a reminder that SO itself has asserted a particular set of values with regard to leveraging insulting accusations at people.
Zuck doesn't explain himself to anyone, it's not a community
We get that here, too
And there's nothing more insulting in the Western world today than being labeled a bigot.
@Zoe When you work on a reply, you don't wait silent for days. You come and ask for some time, you at least say you heard the voices.
@DenysSéguret I'm not surprised that most of SO management hasn't said anything. They were obviously blindsided by the communities reaction. I suspect they've been in meetings all morning trying to figure out how to handle the debacle this is becoming.
@Zoe My take from Tim's answer: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/388384/…
@DanNeely Morning is roughly just starting for them
2:48 PM
@Tensibai it's 10:48 am for the NY headquarters
People really want the upper management to speak up, but they aren’t replying. Just to confirm, that’s what we only want? its not a fight, lets not be rude. We can only do one thing and that is to wait. Discussing about it will only give birth to inaccurate predictions and overthinking.
people on the westcoast are just getting to the start of a normal work day; but AFAIK most of the management's in the east
@DanNeely Fair point
If they aren’t replying, why should we even bother ourselves too then?
well all this fun and sad, but my city is blocked by taxi drivers ... and i got no clue how ill get home and cba walking :(
2:50 PM
@DanNeely What's surprising to me is that Sara did chime in. At best, her decision to do so and her choice of wording made the situation that much worse. This to me suggests a lack of wisdom and finesse required to manage a community of our size and diverse viewpoints.
maybe we should follow their example, we don't like something, we block it until fulfillment of our requests :D
@jpmc26 That's not exactly the first time...
@Cerbrus Well, I guess "surprising" isn't quite the right word. lol. But still, it leaves an impression.
!vote wait
@jpmc26 an apparent case of "We must do something immediately" "this {bad idea} is something" "I will do that"
2:52 PM
The point isn't about the abilities of a specific SE employee. I'm not here to ask for some people to get fired. That's really not the point.
@DanNeely I kind of doubt it. That wouldn't explain her reply on Hot Meta's removal.
@jpmc26 I'm even more cynical on that, she's intelligent, so I do think those words were choose. to which effect I'm a bit unsure
@Veljko89 helicopter?
Dont speculate on such things. Unless you are the person writing a comment, answer, question ... you don't know what exactly was going on.
@GhostCat You're right, and that's half the problem.
2:54 PM
I've invited @SaraChipps to join. Hopefully she'll show up.
The thing is, we still have a lot of information. We don't need to speculate
Be Nice everyone
yes. Insulting the person or her ability brings nothing positive. And is probably unfair.
@JL2210 Honestly, if I would be in her position, I wouldn't join. There are a million ways participating in this context here could go wrong, and only a handful that have a "positive" ending for her.
If she is smart, respectively her bosses are ... then they currently sit together and decide how to respond.
@Zoe Most of us don't know what went on in the moderator only chat rooms. Nobody can reveal that. Nobody knows what went on in private communications.
2:56 PM
@JL2210 She hasn't replied to the comments with a limited number of people involved. There's, what, 80 people here? (No idea, lost count) - sounds unlikely for that to happen
@JL2210 I don't think she is allowed to
@Raedwald Exactly. I sure trust the MODs and their statements, but in the end: it is always just one side of the story.
@OrangeDog Is being nice more important than being truthful? That, to me, is an important part of the debate that's been raging on SO for quite some time. I try to be professional in my criticisms, but sometimes there's no really nice way to state them.
75, close enough
Would anyone walk into a room where almost everyone is holding torches and pitchforks?
2:56 PM
If I were in her position, I'd probably go to the Winchester, have a nice pint, and wait for this all to blow over
@jpmc26 you can argue about that all day long ...
@ErikA That on the other hand, isn't something I would do either.
@GeorgeStocker Would you if you knew you were in a position to calm that down?
And if her choices are actually damaging to the community, then isn't it appropriate to say so? She doesn't have to be fired over them, but improvement of some kind seems to be warranted.
@GeorgeStocker Imo torches and pitchforks look more aggressive than what's going on in this room.
@jpmc26 You can be both. Ask, don't tell. Challenge the visible actions, not the assumed intentions.
2:58 PM
Two people disagree, they must be a mob
@OrangeDog If my previous statements implied something about intent, I apologize and would appreciate if you could point out which parts those were. With regard to Sara, I attempted to emphasize results.
@Zoe I’m here to provide what support I can. If I’m getting dumped on and I’m only an observer in all this, I can’t imagine the reception she’d get. I wouldn’t wish that on my enemy.
We're not talking about a live execution here, nor are we just talking about any user. She's the director of Q&A, and she is in a position to calm down a lot of what's going on. The lack of an actual reply is what's escalating this
@GeorgeStocker That's awfully pessimistic
2:58 PM
@GeorgeStocker you are certainly not only an observer
@GeorgeStocker From what I gather, mods aren't allowed to share details.
@Cerbrus I have yet to see any chats in here that would indicate otherwise.
I don't really know what could be said at this point anyway. This incident is a culmination of a lot of other issues that have been responded to poorly, or just not at all. What combination of words could correct the situation?
Is the weatherman pessimistic when they tell you it’s raining?
@GeorgeStocker a) to bring a crate of whiskey, B) to listen (probably anonymously) c) to tell the people with pitchforks the people with torches are planing to steal the pitchforks d) to have an honest conversation albeit hard.
2:59 PM
@Zoe Just what could she do to calm the situation?
