• Welcome to Christian Forums





Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by WailingWall, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter


    Romans 11:1-2

    “His people which He foreknew” is clearly related to:

    Romans 8

    This is an unmistakable description of the believer. There is no mention of or implication involving unbelieving Israel in these verses or anywhere in the entire chapter.

    1 Peter 1:2

    Here God's foreknowledge identifies the elect, who within the New Testament are exclusively believers.

    You can quote OT promises ad infinitum, but unless they are repeated within the NT, they are revoked, nullified, and voided under the legal and scriptural definitions and descriptions of a Will and Testament.

    All OT promises must be judged in the NT context; everlasting, eternal, and forever; included.

    Numbers 25

    Has Phineas' seed continued as OT everlasting priests, or has Christ our great NT High Priest superseded them?

    Romans 3:1-2 describes the Old Covenant advantages enjoyed by the Jews, which should have translated into their grateful reception of the New Covenant, but did not. Paul cites no New Covenant advantages which they could claim, and reinforces their status before God in v.29.

    You need to get with the program in God's New Will and Testament.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    Jerry Kelso, We know who the House of Judah is today. Who comprise the House of Israel today?
  3. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1 You are wrong again.
    Roman's 11:1-2; God's people whom he foreknew, Paul is talking clearly to his fellow brethren. Why?
    Because the next scripture is Paul said, For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    Since Israel was his concern he shows God had not forgotten them and talks about those reserved and didn't bow to Baal and that he had men in Paul's day that had an election of grace.

    2. Romans 8:29-30; of course this is the church and there is no statement of unbelieving Jews because they will not be saved till the end of the tribulation Roman's 11:25-29.
    This is the church age not the KoH reign age.

    3. The house of Israel of the Ten tribes has been scattered even to the latter days but has not lost their identity. Deuteronomy 4:26:31.
    God will not forget the covenant of the father's to have a great nation through which the families of the earth will be blessed Genesis 12:1-3.
    4. God promised David a house and throne forever and that God would not take it away from like he did Saul 2 Samuel 7:13-16.

    5. Christ is our High Priest and he will have Jewish priests to administer sacrifices for the feasts as a memorial not a type or shadow of salvation or Old Covenant requirements Ezekiel 40-48 will have the wear they temple to be able to have these sacrifices. Israel will be under the New Covenant Hebrews 8:7-13.

    6. Romans 3:1-2 Israel's earthly calling given was the oracles of God and God is now God of Jews and Gentiles.
    The oracles of God will be given back to Israel in the KoH reign and the families of the earth will be blessed through them Genesis 12:1-3; Zechariah 14.

    7. The New Covenant shows Israel's earthly gifts and callings are without repentance Roman's 11-29. Acts 15:13-18; after the church age and the fullness of the Gentiles are come in Roman's 11:25 and the rapture of the church Revelation 4:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 etc. the tabernacle of David will be rebuilt and the residue of men will come through Israel concerning salvation.

    8. The earmarks of Israel are everywhere in Revelation and yet you don't believe those scriptures in the New Testament reaffirming the Old Testament promises of God to fulfill the physical ethnic nation of Israel's earthly calling.
    Your position is quite similar to British-Israelis which is totally unscriptural. Jerry kelso
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    The above is one of the greatest errors of your doctrine.

    All the families of the earth were to be blessed by one of Abraham's seed.

    That seed is found in the verse below.


    This fact is confirmed below by the Apostle Paul.


    You have replaced the One Seed, with the many seeds.

  5. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Your doctrine is similar to British Israelism and is just as unscriptural.

    2. 2 Samuel 7:13-16 says that David will have an eternal house and Throne and though they would be chastened for sin but his mercy would never depart from him like it did Saul.
    God made an acception for David since Solomon was not perfect at the end of his kingdom.
    He also had believer's from the house of Israel that didn't stay with the sinful house of Israel which was the Ten tribes but they did go to the cities of Judah.
    In Ezekiel 37 the two houses in the last days will be made as one nation. The point is that God has always paved a way for all of the house of Israel and the house of Judah to be saved in the last days not just the remnant.

    Judah is the ruling house of David and they may be the remnant but they have also been called Israel and they will be united in the future KoH reign.
    The church is not of the house of Israel or the house of Judah of unbelievers.
    And there is no scripture that says the church is part of the remnant of Judah.

    3. Matthew 1:1 is the genealogies of Christ through Abraham (promise of the land) and David (promise of the throne). These promises were rejected by the Jews because they refused to Repent!!!!!!!!!
    The Kingdom program was finished right then and would not be again till the Jews come into the KoH reign saying blessed be the name of the Lord.
    Christ reaffirmed this in Acts 1:6-7 that only God knew when the KoH reign would begin again with the Jews and in Matthew 24 when Christ prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

    4. Galatians 3 has all to do with living the New Covenant by faith concerning salvation which is in Abraham's covenant. There is not one mention of the physical KoH reign promises or gifts and callings of Israel which are eternal to them and not the church. Salvation is for the whole world, both Jews and Gentiles.
    You are hijacking the actual context when the restitution of all things that will happen with Israel the nation's gifts and calling of the KoH reign.
    The church taking Israel's calling and gifts is not in this context and you are being deceitful to keep posting that. All you are trying to do is save your false doctrine which is not possible.

    5. The Palestinian Covenant was made with Moses and was conditioned upon obedience of Israel. Deuteronomy 11:8-32; 27:1-30:20; Leviticus 26:1-46.
    It has 7 parts:
    a). Dispersion for diobedience Deuteronomy 30:1; 28:63-68
    b). Repentance while in dispersion Deuteronomy 30:2; Zechariah 12:10-14
    c). The return of the Lord Deuteronomy 30:3; Acts 15:14-17; Zechariah 14
    d). Restoration in the land Deuteronomy 30:5; Isaiah 11:1-12; Matthew 24:31; Ezekiel 37
    e). National Conversion Deuteronomy 30:6; Romans 11:26,27; Zechariah 12:10-13, Isaiah 66.
    f). Judgement of Israel's oppressors Deuteronomy 30:7; Matthew 25:31-46; Zechariah 14.
    g). National prosperity Deuteronomy 30:9-10; Roman's 11.
    This was promised only to Israel and the Davidic Kingdom only promised to Israel and that the specific land in the Holy land is Israel with Jerusalem as the capital is only with Israel.
    There is no replacing the one seed in salvation that is foolish all believers will propagate the gospel to the unbelievers.
    There is no replacing the one seed of Jesus Christ in the place of ruling the whole earth.
    At the same time he will appoint all believers in authority positions. The Church will rule throughout the earth and Israel will be at the head of the nations in Israel ruling and Christ will rule over all the earth.
    That is plain!!!!!!!!!!If you work at a job and one is placed as the store mgr. doesn't mean he is the only one in authority at the same store for there are assistant mgrs. and CSM'S etc.
    Christ calls the shots but he allocates other authority positions in his Kingdom. So quit being ridiculous and wrongly dividing the word and trying to replace Israel with the church. Jerry kelso
  6. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    James 1:1; James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad. So the national identity was not lost.
    Peter 1:1; Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia. They were scattered Jews.
    Revelation 7 has 12 Jewish tribes.
    Jewish leaders say that before the coming of the great and dreadful day of Christ he Lord Elijah will come and will address the tribes different Jews belong to.
    There will be strangers at the gate and so there will be gentiles will live in the Holyland but the promise of the Kingdom and Land were promised to Israel and Judah.
    So some are scattered among heathen nations Ezekiel 37:21 and those that believe are probably in the cities of Judah just like in the division of the northern and southern kingdom days,.
    In the end all of Israel which includes Judah will be one stick for the covenant promises not the church of today. Jerry kelso
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    This is about the most confused reply ever. You know there is still a House of Israel in the world, but you deny they could be the majority of the Christians?
    What Paul said in Ephesians 2:11-18 was to non Jews; the Goyem, the Gentiles, who are anyone other than those of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. We know that many of the other tribes plus aliens have joined them and thereby become Jews. But the majority of the other ten tribes remain scattered among the nations. They are the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24, that the disciples went out to and converted to Christianity. WE are the result
    The Christian peoples, WILL inherit all of the holy Land. Ephesians 1:11-14, Romans 8:16-18, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 7:9
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    It amazes me that Dispensationalists have taken a passage which is clearly about the bodily resurrection of the dead and have turned it into a passage about the modern State of Israel.

    Eze 37:5　 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:　




    (Read John 14:26 to find out about God's spirit being put into a person.)


    Eze 37:27　 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.　

    Eze 37:28　 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

    What is the "everlasting covenant" and who is the "sanctuary" that will be forever?



  9. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    Actually Ezekiel 37 is about the spiritual regeneration of the Jewish remnant and the Christian Israelites. It is the time that all of the Lord's people will receive the fulfilment of Joel 2:8-29 and when Hebrews 8:10 takes place.

    But BaBerean, I admire your efforts to counter the errors of others here, despite sometimes having to put up with a lot of very rude and unchristian comments.
    Keep up your good work and stay strong in the Word.
  10. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. As long as you keep mixing scripture that have to do with the church and force it to make them to be scriptures for the Jews earthly calling you will always keep being wrong.

    2. There is nowhere in Ephesians 1:11-14; Roman's 8:16-18; Revelation 7:9 about the KoH reign with Israel or the church.
    Isaiah 66:18b-21 is nothing about the New Testament church being at the head of the nations or all Gentiles living in the Holy land. You are dreaming! Jerry kelso
  11. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Desperate are we? You will do anything to save your personal theory.

    2. It is a spiritual resurrection of Israel to regather them to the promised land.
    God has to put their spirit in them for God will not rule with any man without a Holy Heart.

    2. The bodily resurrection of the dead is at the First Resurrection of the tribulation saints who are martyred and go to Heaven Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6.

    3. The tabernacle and sanctuary are in the context of Israel not the church of today.
    This is why your replacement theory is unscriptural.

    3. Hebrews is a separate context and is to the Hebrew Christians in the church age not the kingdom age.

    4. John is talking about the death, burial and resurrection and his bodily temple which did happen.
    This has nothing to do with transferring the KoH land and throne of Israel to the church age saints.
    This is your problem is that you transfer everything from Israel to the church by spiritualizing scripture.

    5. 2 Samuel 7:13-16 says that eternal covenant withe David and his house and his throne and mercy would not depart from him like Saul's was. That means never because it is eternal and only to David's physical line of the Jewish physical nation.
    You say it has nothing ethnic but yet you will put the church in their place and there are more many ethic groups in the church so you are being no contradictory.
    Your position is a ball of contradiction because of false replacement theology. Get a grip and Quit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jerry kelso
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter


    We may not agree on all things, but I appreciate you also, Brother.

    In my humble opinion Hebrews 8:6-13 went into effect during the first century, based on Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24.

  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter


    According to contemporary genetic science, the planet is already heavily and probably completely ethnically Jewish.


    Abraham lineage

    "And indeed, the number of people in the world today with the “Abrahamic Genetic Signature” is too large to count precisely. A reasonable estimate is in the hundreds of millions."


    DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews

    "With DNA testing becoming so accessible, the number of people discovering their Jewish roots is growing exponentially."

    Those are almost certainly conservative observations, for in the approximately 100 biblical generations, i.e. 4000 years, since Abraham, it is a virtually 100% probability that every person on earth possesses at least one molecule of Abrahamic DNA as a result of genetic dispersion and diffusion. This is being continually and increasingly confirmed as seen from the evidence above.

    Scripturally and spiritually, ethnicity is irrelevant in the sight of God.

    Scientifically and genetically, that irrelevance is being confirmed.

    Acts 17
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  14. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member

    2 Wot ye not what the Scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God
    against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. (The question is: How many inhabitants were there in Israel? I suppose millions, but they were idolaters and murderers and enemy of God, EXCEPT only and only seven thousand men, which the Most High God had separated to himself. Only and only these seven thousand men were the all Israel, the TRUE Israelites before God, the rest they were like a Gentile people.

    The same is happening with the Israel of today:
    (v.5) "Even so then at this present time also there is a REMNANT according to the election of grace". So, now, though the Jews be millions in the present time, only and only 144.000 will be saved. (Rev. 7:1-8)

    25 For
    I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise (or presume) in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Whoever wants to believe, believe, the fullness of the Gentiles has come, and the unbelieving Israel must give account of its incredulity in the present time by refuse the Lord JESUS as their true Messiah, just as He did in the year 70 in fulfilment of Deut. 28:15-68.)
    (All Israel? Yes, all Israel, actually 144.000, which will be sealed).

    Heb. 3:1-11&17-19


    7 Wherefore (as the Holy Spirit saith), To day if ye will hear his voice,



    John 1:11
    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. (John 5:43 - I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name (a false messiah, an IMPOSTER, AN USURPER), him ye will receive. 2The.2:9-12 - 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth (the love of JESUS), that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (ie. to believe in a false messiah) 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth (believed not in JESUS), but had pleasure in unrighteousness.)

    John 1:12-13
    12 But as many as received him (received JESUS, Jews or Gentiles), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
  15. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. God doesn't need DNA testing.
    There is no scripture to be the fact or that will truly be the fact.

    2. Acts 17 is talking about the original time with Adam. God created family to be one.
    In Genesis 11 he confused language and speech.
    Since then and with Peleg the separation of lands men had different families and have grown apart in different races and cultures.
    Every human being in the sight of God are one according to creation because he created us.

    3. There is no scripture to prove that all men will be a Jew in that day or any day.
    The only way a Gentile can be considered a spiritual Jew is by being saved not becoming an ethnic Jew.

    4. God has gone out of his way to preserve the Jews to bring the Messiah and after 70 A.D. when all hope seemed gone to God's promises then comes 1948 and they be come a nation.
    They are still backslidden but they will all be saved in the tribulation.
    They are not here just to survive as a nation. They are here to be at the Head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4; Isaiah 9:6-7; 66:7-9.
    Stir up your theories about physical Israel but you are wrong.
    2 Samuel 7:13-16 prove it to be eternal in Davids line not the churches. Jerry kelso
  16. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. First of all, no one is arguing that there wasn't 7000 Israelites who didn't bow to Baal.

    2. Your allusion to the 144,000 only being saved makes them the remnant and that is not biblical as far as the earthly remnant or other Jews.
    The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are the firstfruits and are redeemed from among men and from the earth and are protected through the trumpet judgements and raptured to Heaven before God's throne. They are sealed Revelation 7:3-8; they are protected through the trumpet judgements 9:4; they are raptured as the man child Revelation 12:3-5 because the woman gives birth to the 144,000 because the other half of her seed is scattered which is called the remnant of her seed v 17.
    Revelation 14:1-5 shows them in the Heavenly Mt, Sion not Earthly. The rest I explained about being before the throne redeemed from among men and from the earth etc.

    3. The rest of your post has nothing explicit to the Kingdom promises of Israel or that the church has taken its place.

    4. The believing remnant will be in the tribulation but the woman will be in the wilderness preserved and nourished.
    They will see the Lord coming back with the saints from Heaven and will see the one whom they pierced. They will Repent so all Israel can be saved and become one stick and one nation forever Ezekiel 37:16-28. Jerry kelso
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter


    You're right, He certainly doesn't need DNA testing. That's why ethnicity's irrelevance according to Scripture is reinforced by its irrelevance according to science.

    If the Jews themselves say that Jewish ethnicity is already pervasive and "growing exponentially", then any arguments which attempt to perpetuate distinctions based on ethnicity are bankrupt.

    We're all Jews.

    Your premises and presumptions are spurious both scripturally and scientifically.
  18. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. You are just trying to blur the lines.

    2. Upon that thinking we're every race and then there is no distinctions at all because after all we are all of Adams creation.

    3. The fact is we are not all physical Jews so you are just going on Jewish bologna that hasn't happened and is in koshered.
    All your wishful thinking and straw men scientific hogwash doesn't gel with the scriptures.

    4. There are physical Jews who are unbelievers. These are not sinful Gentiles.
    There are physical Jews who are believers that are accepted by God. They are true Jews and the two thirds of the rebels who do not wish to be saved will be cut off Zechariah 13:9.
    Those in the wilderness eventually will be saved to become one stick with the house of Judah. Ezekiel 37:16-28.

    5. So as I said before, Gentiles can be called a spiritual Jew because of salvation but not because they have replaced Israel.
    Jerry kelso
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    What did John the Baptist say to his own people about race?


    What did Jesus say about race?


    What did Timothy say about race?


    Either you are wrong or they are wrong.

  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Truer dispensational words were never spoken.

    God, who is the creator of DNA, and the God of science, is responsible for "scientific hogwash."