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#rockbox log for 2016-12-26

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01:45:46 Join madk [0] (~noneofyou@2604:a880:0:1010::93d:2001)
01:51:58madkhello. I just got a Fiio X1 for Christmas and was researching Rockbox on it. Seems some work has been done by pamaury but I'm not sure what the progress is at. I've read the wiki on it and this thread:,51047.15.html already. Looking into it more and where to go from here. Perhaps something else has been done that I'm not aware of, and if so would someone here know?
01:53:19madkalso: Merry Christmas!
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05:11:43 Join wyatt8740 [0] (~wyatt8740@
05:12:37wyatt8740I've got a 7.5g ipod classic running rockbox, here. I am moving over to a compactflash card and run linux on my desktop. What do I need to do to format a bootloader onto the compactflash card?
05:12:58wyatt8740I feel like I remember seeing disk images I could write to it, but I can't find them now
05:14:41wyatt8740maybe it was a MBR image
05:16:03wyatt8740(I get that rockbox doesn't officially support the classic 7.5g but I've been using it on mine for over half a decade, now. Just would like some help getting it to boot, please :\)
05:22:30wyatt8740 doesn't contain classic bootloaders, of course
05:23:58wyatt8740(or does emcore cover that?)
05:25:13TheSevenif you don't bother about the apple firmware, just format it as one big fat32 partition
05:25:46wyatt8740what about the partition table?
05:25:54wyatt8740should I just not put a table on>
05:25:56 Join treaki_ [0] (
05:26:08TheSevenhow exactly that looks like only matters for the apple firmware
05:26:28wyatt8740e.g. mkfs.vfat /dev/cfcardorwhatever
05:26:35wyatt8740oh okay
05:26:48wyatt8740well I haven't used apple's firmware in years and don't intend to go back :)
05:26:52TheSeveneither create a partition on it using parted, or format the card directly (as superfloppy)
05:26:59TheSevenrockbox supports both
05:27:19wyatt8740still, how should I install the actual OS without access to windows?
05:27:20TheSevenalso, emcore does reformat the disk during installation, but it's recommended to use the rockbox bootloader instead these days
05:27:38wyatt8740I am not opposed to the rockbox bootloader but there are only windoze instructions :|
05:27:54TheSevenwhat firmware is on the ipod right now?
05:28:16wyatt8740this is a blank, brand new CF card
05:28:25wyatt8740but the old dying hard disk in it is using emcore
05:28:26wyatt8740and rockbox
05:29:05wyatt8740I installed it years ago when I still used XP occasionally
05:29:05TheSevenok, so you have flashed emcore to the ipod already?
05:29:14wyatt8740yeah in the distant past
05:29:20TheSeven(that's *not* on the HDD, but on the ipod's main board)
05:29:33 Quit treaki__ (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
05:29:37wyatt8740ohh okay
05:29:42wyatt8740it's actually in _flash_
05:29:54TheSevenif so, just plug in the new card and boot up the ipod
05:30:12TheSevenemcore should start up just fine, go to the tools menu, select "reformat data partition"
05:30:13wyatt8740emcore 0.2.3 r868
05:30:40wyatt8740gonna have to figure out how to crack my ipod open now
05:30:50TheSeventhen attempt to start rockbox, it will complain about missing files and boot up the fallback image, use that to unpack onto the new CF card
05:31:08wyatt8740the fallback's on flash as well?
05:31:09TheSeventhat part works exactly like the second part of the initial installation
05:32:19wyatt8740gonna have to figure out how to open the case and actually put the card in first :\
05:32:52wyatt8740anyone done it with a leatherman before?
05:33:01TheSevenifixit has a guide
05:33:08wyatt8740suggests a plastic tool
05:33:10wyatt8740which I don't have
05:33:35TheSeventhere are pretty nasty metal clips inside, the back (and clips) will get damaged to some degree no matter what you do
05:33:47wyatt8740and strongly warns about breaking crap. (most of my experience with hardware is on old amiga 500's and commodores)
05:33:57wyatt8740well, that's apple for you
05:34:24wyatt8740but have you done it with, say, a knife>?
05:34:29wyatt8740or is that a very bad idea (tm)?
05:35:03wyatt8740not too worried about damaging the case, just the hardware itself
05:35:07TheSevenyou'll need something thin to get into the gap at the beginning, once I managed to pry that open a bit I've used screwdrivers
05:35:22TheSevennot ideal, and will leave scratches everywhere etc., but it worked well enough for my testing device
05:35:25wyatt8740ah okay
05:35:32wyatt8740that's fine for me then
05:35:49wyatt8740just worried about destroying the motherboard with the knife while I'm trying to get it opened
05:36:10TheSeventhe board is right behind the clickwheel - you can't really get at that before you've got rid of the back
05:36:22wyatt8740ah okay
05:36:37wyatt8740i'll go in from the clickwheel side rather than the screen side, though, I guess?
05:36:53wyatt8740the battery's near the screen as i understand it
05:37:05TheSevenyes, the battery is at the top, the hdd at the bottom
05:37:19TheSevenI'd probably try to get in on a side, those (longer) edges can be bent more easily
05:37:42wyatt8740I'm just worried about shattering the screeen or something
05:39:00 Quit Senj_ (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
05:42:16TheSeventhere are known issues with that old emcore build and some CF adapters btw
05:42:43TheSevenso you might need to upgrade to a newer emcore (development) build or to the rockbox bootloader
05:43:18wyatt8740it's possible.
05:43:23wyatt8740this is a cheapo one
05:43:41wyatt8740how does one flash emcore from linux, though
05:43:51wyatt8740my machine doesn't have VT-d
05:44:42wyatt8740(or the rockbox bootloader)
05:44:50TheSeventhere was a recent chat about that on #freemyipod-support, here is the log:
05:45:37TheSevennot sure if that works if there's already emcore on it - prof_wolfff can probably answer that ;)O
05:46:24wyatt8740welp, drew blood with my screwdriver
05:46:28wyatt8740just a second
05:47:19wyatt8740alright its opened
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05:54:25wyatt8740hm, my classic doesn't have one of those flipping plastic zif connectors for the hard disk i dont think
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05:58:15wyatt8740nah, I'm just dumb, nevermind
06:12:01wyatt8740okay, think I'm good to go now
06:12:30wyatt8740just one more question theseven: the 7.5g still uses the ipod6g builds right?
06:12:54wyatt8740(I actually am not sure this was ever the case)
06:13:15TheSevenI'm not aware of any official generation names for anything post 6g
06:13:20wyatt8740oh, okay
06:13:28wyatt8740I see 7.5g some places, maybe i was mislead
06:13:34TheSeventhat's just a huge mess, and the hardware is basically all the same except for HDDs, LCDs and headphone remote circuitry
06:13:34wyatt8740this is like the iphone all over again
06:13:42wyatt8740(2g is the original(
06:14:07wyatt8740so ipod6g it is
06:14:14TheSevenso yeah, everything that's "ipod classic" is covered by the "ipod6g" rockbox build
06:15:03wyatt8740I dont remember if this laptop has my toolchain for building rockbox or not
06:15:18wyatt8740I did build it years ago when I was having trouble with the gb emulator and the hold switch
06:15:20TheSevenIIUC you don't need that
06:15:34wyatt8740I'm just grabbing the build bot zipfiles
06:16:11TheSevenyou just need a normal host toolchain to build that flasher tool
06:16:24wyatt8740yeah, I know. I'm not building a flasher
06:16:40wyatt8740just talking about the ARM (i think) toolchain for rockbox itself
06:17:47wyatt8740what kinds of problems should I be looking for to tell if I need to update emcore?
06:19:02wyatt8740(or rockbox bootloader)
06:20:49TheSevenit would fail to boot with ATA error messages
06:21:49TheSevenemcore would mostly work, but rockbox would fail to boot up
06:25:59wyatt8740it's booting finr
06:27:27wyatt8740I am in awe of how much faster the CF card is
06:27:45wyatt8740Wondering how much of the difference is due to the fact that the HDD was failing
06:30:20wyatt8740one more minor question
06:30:34wyatt8740is there any way to force rockboy's audio sample rate higher?
06:30:44wyatt8740i'm aware it will suck
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06:56:43wyatt8740this wouldn't work, right? I don't see any IC's on it (at least not in the pic)
06:57:00wyatt8740(for reading files off the old hard disk without cracking open the ipod again)
06:57:14wyatt8740 oh nvm
06:57:17wyatt8740just saw more pics
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08:05:11Corwin_3085i have a problem
08:05:21Corwin_3085cant convert ttf font file to fnt
08:05:43Corwin_3085Rockbox Font Convertor is crashing
08:07:48Corwin_3085i trying convert Ubuntu-B font because can't see arabic words
08:11:26wyatt8740corwin_3085: can't help there, but try GNU Unifont
08:11:36wyatt8740there's a FNT version somewhere I think
08:12:32wyatt8740that covers most of unicode plane 1
08:12:38wyatt8740including arabic I think
08:14:03Corwin_3085i need 19 size
08:14:06Corwin_3085can u give?
08:14:34Corwin_3085also i need cyrilyc
08:16:06Corwin_3085and Bolt
08:16:19wyatt8740It supports cyrilyc
08:16:24wyatt8740but it's not in 19pt, sorry
08:16:50wyatt8740it's a bitmap font so it's only got support for 16px*16px or 8px*16px
08:16:58Corwin_3085i test it now, looks shit
08:17:05wyatt8740ah, sorry
08:17:39wyatt8740I'm wrestling with fonts for other reasons right now, too. I'll tell you if I figure something out
08:18:48Corwin_3085Ubuntu-B 19 looks nice on my theme in iPod Classic
08:19:07Corwin_3085but i think its some old version wothout arabic
08:20:23wyatt8740that DOES look nice
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08:23:19wyatt8740corwin_3085: is your problem with unifont that its not anti-aliased?
08:23:34wyatt8740 (because for me, this is how I like it )
08:23:53Corwin_3085too small and tiny
08:23:58wyatt8740ah, yeah
08:24:04wyatt8740high-dpi iPod screen
08:25:55wyatt8740corwin_3085: I have some other fonts and an iPod classic I just resurrected from the grave today (CF card)
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08:26:03wyatt8740I'll try some and let you know
08:26:17Corwin_3085ok thanks
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08:35:10Corwin_3085trying to convert in Fontforge
08:35:23Corwin_3085by this steps
08:35:34Corwin_3085and crash :)
08:35:44wyatt8740corwin_3085: only ever tried converting fnt to TTF's before
08:35:48wyatt8740(which is very hard)
08:36:03wyatt8740 all of the .fnt extras from rockbox
08:36:12wyatt8740in case you needed them
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08:52:52wyatt8740thanks theseven, I was able to listen to the entire first Procol Harum album without crashing. Pretty sure that's due to getting rid of the bad hard disk
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08:54:27wyatt8740(BTW, if you're at all into the hammond organ sound, I highly highly HIGHLY recommend the first three Procol Harum albums.
08:54:50wyatt8740Matthew Fisher is spectacular
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09:19:29wyatt8740does rockbox support progressive jpegs yet? If not, is this due to memory consumption or just additional work? Because I'd be willing to put some work into it
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15:16:49BilgusWTH is a progressive jpeg is that like an interlaced jpeg?
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15:18:35Bilgusohh that is interesting indeed wyatt8740
15:28:05BilgusNo Rb doesn't support progressive jpegs
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18:50:31wyatt8740bilgus: it doesn't
18:50:34wyatt8740just tried it
18:51:14wyatt8740(also managed to ruin my ipod LCD opening it up again, so there goes another $15
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18:56:37wyatt8740Are all the replacement LCDs on ebay the same part as the original?
18:56:49wyatt8740(transflective displays are preferred which is why I ask)
18:57:47BilgusI don't think anyone could answer that for you, if it originated in China I doubt even the vendor could tell you
18:58:08wyatt8740just wondered if anyone'd ever replaced his screen here before
19:02:58duo8you can buy one of those "for parts" on ebay
19:03:09duo8keep the rest as spares
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19:24:00chrisjjPerhaps the RB manual needs a warning: "Do not open your iPod LCD in an attempt to get progressive JPEGs working." :-)
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19:48:18wyatt8740I just ended up grabbing one for $20 that had the same markings on the panel and same components on the flex cable
19:48:44wyatt8740(some of the ones on ebay/amazon didn't even have the trimmer potentiometer on the flex cable O.o)
19:49:04wyatt8740(and I ended up using amazon just because I have $70 of gift cards)
19:51:56BilgusAmazon has very good customer service even if their (soon to be ex-)vendors don't
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19:54:38BilgusTorC, JohnB2, (TWIMC) Latest Selective backlight/ Advanced Softlock builds are uploading This should be it unless you guys find a bug or want some feature still
19:57:34[Saint]wyatt8740: a little column a, a little column b, fwiw.
19:57:38[Saint]re: progressive jpeg
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19:58:23wyatt8740[saint]: I'm going to take a look at jpegtran because it can losslessly convert a progressive jpeg to a baseline one
19:58:25[Saint]initially - it would've been a combination of hardware and lack of need, want, and effort. Now it is primarily the latter.
19:58:36wyatt8740I have the feeling that there's an efficient way to read thenm
19:59:18[Saint]well, when I say lack of resources, one must think of the fact that the players of over a decade ago had ~2MB of RAM.
19:59:30[Saint]Now we regularly have between 8 and 64MB...
19:59:53[Saint]It's significantly less of an issue now.
19:59:58wyatt8740[saint]: I know exactly what you mean
20:00:10wyatt8740I program for the NES and commodore VIC-20 as a hobby
20:00:45gevaerts[Saint]: it's still an issue
20:01:20gevaertsI mean, last time I sent a photo from my camera straight to a raspberry pi (1) running xbmc, the thing crashed
20:01:21[Saint]Another factor in it could very well be:
20:01:22[Saint]"JPEG is a piece of shit image compression container - use bitmap"
20:01:43gevaertsMy rockbox devices showed the same file just fine
20:01:45[Saint]I suspect that to be the case.
20:02:20wyatt8740I do not like jpeg very much, but as a common format I'd like to see about supporting it. Not at all familiar with the rockbox codebase though
20:02:29wyatt8740does it use libjpeg or something custom?
20:03:08[Saint]custom magic AFAIK, it;s actually faster and more efficient than any decoder I've ever found before or since.
20:03:18wyatt8740I believe it
20:03:27gevaertsWell, I don't know if it's *faster*
20:03:43gevaertsIt's just that it knows what scale to render to, so it avoids decoding irrelevant stuff
20:03:44wyatt8740better memory usage
20:04:35wyatt8740oh, neat. It just uses the YUV colorspace's "Y" channel on black and white devices
20:04:43wyatt8740I appreciate things like that
20:05:15[Saint]But..something something, use bitmap. Just don't fuck up the colorspace if you include bitmaps with an alpha channel (yep, we can do that).
20:05:43wyatt8740as a general purpose image viewer it should be able to cope with as many formats as possible.
20:05:54wyatt8740I agree that for most cases a plain bitmap or png is preferable.
20:06:19[Saint]it's not really a general purpose image viewer, though.
20:06:19[Saint]that's the thing.
20:06:48[Saint]that's more of a bi-product of album art.
20:06:51wyatt8740if my ipod can play pokemon or doom, I think it should be able to view a progressive jpeg. :\
20:06:57wyatt8740I understand your point though
20:07:14wyatt8740case 0xCF: /* SOF Arith - Differential spatial*/ {return (-4); /* other DCT model than baseline not implemented */}
20:07:21wyatt8740from jpeg_decoder.c
20:07:40wyatt8740(there are more cases than that, just pulled in the last one)
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20:10:34[Saint]May I ask how it is you're regularly running into progressive scan jpegs?
20:10:56[Saint]Most encoders go out of their way to avoid progressive scan and/or hide it as an option from the user.
20:11:13[Saint]It usually takes a deal of deliberate action.
20:12:37wyatt8740I am assuming photoshop does not hide it
20:12:53wyatt8740(I use GIMP so I don't know.)
20:13:25[Saint]You poor bastard. You're actually using the image viewer in its intended function and getting your monies worth out of the scaling engine I'll bet.
20:13:34wyatt8740heh, it's alright
20:13:39wyatt8740I like challenges
20:13:45wyatt8740from the wikipedia page: "When progressive JPEGs are received by programs that do not support them (such as versions of Internet Explorer before Windows 7)[15] the software displays the image only after it has been completely downloaded."
20:14:05wyatt8740so it should be possible to just skip by all the smaller resolution images
20:17:46wyatt8740 this fork of turbojpeg also looks promising
20:18:19wyatt8740he was working with 64-128mb of ram
20:18:36wyatt8740so a bit more than we have
20:22:16[Saint]A bit more?
20:22:24[Saint]that's "the max, and double the max"
20:22:37[Saint]that's a bit more than a bit more. ;)
20:22:45wyatt8740that was a euphemism
20:22:59wyatt8740hard to convey tone in text
20:23:22wyatt8740but it'd be like if I said "it wasn't entirely unlike our use case"
20:23:29pixelmaI think the image viewer (at least as jpeg viewer) existed way before album art, think of the Archos's monochrome lcds etc.
20:23:38[Saint]And, keep in mind, that's _total_ for the device...mind you.
20:23:50wyatt8740yes, I get it.
20:23:58wyatt8740again, I used a VIC-20
20:24:08[Saint]we regularly have as little as 8MB total, of which available is going to be about 5MB at any given time.
20:24:11wyatt8740(which had 5k of RAM, but only about 3k available for the user once BASIC was loaded)
20:24:43[Saint]pixelma: yes - you're right, but it was just bitmap then was it not?
20:24:49gevaertsMegabytes are irrelevant :)
20:25:25[Saint]Bah. Bits...bytes. +/- 24 and you're good.
20:25:30gevaertsIIRC our jpeg decoder needs enough RAM to store a few lines of pixels and then a few kilobytes more
20:26:59pixelmabmp is supported in the core for WPS and fonts etc., IIRC the viewer was first jpeg and only jpeg
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20:27:21wyatt8740you only need 9 megabytes for a 24 bit color 640x480 framebuffer if I did the math correctly
20:27:37pixelmanot a 100% sure though
20:27:41wyatt8740whoops, 900kb
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20:28:21[Saint]I'm not sure the imageviewer does 24 bit jpegs does it?
20:28:31wyatt8740jpeg is a yuv colorspace
20:28:36wyatt8740so probably not applicable
20:28:43gevaertspixelma: yes, I think the image viewer plugin did jpeg fairly early. It wasn't as efficient as it is now though
20:28:43[Saint]I know the skin engine does...but we ab(use) it.
20:29:14[Saint]we do 24 bit jpegs there but we kinda abuse it for an alpha channel and transparency.
20:29:20wyatt8740looks like yuv2rgb.c uses 16-bit rgb
20:29:32[Saint]not sure if that follows through to the pictureviewer or not.
20:29:49wyatt8740*scaled is 15 bit
20:29:52wyatt8740fullsize is 24
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21:40:40Saratogawyatt8740: the problem with progressive jpeg is memory
21:41:09SaratogaCoefficients are not stored sequentially so you must load the entire jpeg before you can resize it
21:41:27SaratogaThis means a you need enough RAM to decide the entire image
21:42:16SaratogaWith no progressive you can resize block by block and only need to allocate enough RAM for the out put size, not input size
21:42:39SaratogaWhich is why we can decode a 1MB jpeg with a few kilobytes of RAM
21:43:38SaratogaYou could decode very small progressive JPEGs, but larger would force you to stop playback to get ram back from the codecs and audio buffer
21:45:10[Saint]damn it would be nice if we could dynamically shrink and grow buffers.
21:45:35[Saint]instead of just asking for a portion or all of what remains.
21:47:17[Saint]in situations like that when you need to steal the playback buffer it would be nicer if it could just be deflated to a few hundred Kb or so instead, and inflated after the fact when the large allocator no longer requires it.
21:47:22gevaertsOn many players, the RAM you'd commonly need would be more than the audio buffer anyway, so who cares?
21:48:00SaratogaActually by using the lowest resolution dct coefficients to save some memory, but not nearly as much as the no progressive case
21:48:05[Saint]I think there's more large-mem targets around these days.
21:48:57SaratogaYeah if you're clever it's probably doable on 64 MB devices
21:49:09SaratogaBut forget it on ams
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21:49:44[Saint]Rockbox in general supports more lowmem targets by an overwhelming margin.
21:49:47pixelmaso which targets would be left by this definition?
21:49:52[Saint]But lets face many people are using them?
21:51:05gevaerts[Saint]: every time someone asks for help with a bricked clip zip, one less :)
21:51:59[Saint]I really hope that guy building the Rockbox player isn't full of shit and gets to market.
21:52:32[Saint]Not seeing a single goddamn thing from them on Gerrit or git is troubling though.
21:52:57[Saint]You'd think they would want to work with a couple of key players directly.
21:53:16*gevaerts isn't sure there is a rockbox player
21:53:41gevaertsDepending on how you read things, it sounds like a rockbox *capable* player
21:53:44[Saint]I'm about 80% confident there isn;t and that guy is talking complete shit.
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21:54:09[Saint]that number goes up by ~2% every couple of weeks.
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21:54:31saratoga_[Saint]: not expecting much in the way of source from them, probably those smaller chinese vendors are worried the competition will take the same source and slap it on another near-referencec device and put them out of business
21:54:36saratoga_but we will see
21:55:05saratoga_probably theyre still hoping someone else ports it without their code
21:55:40[Saint]That's a good point. And that explains source I guess...but I still would've thought they would want hands on help, so to speak.
21:55:52[Saint]you'd think there would be at least one of you guys with a dev unit by now.
21:55:56saratoga_well they offered to send us free units
21:56:22[Saint]And no one took them up on it? I never saw this...
21:56:44saratoga_yeah i gave them my address, if i get one I can pass it on to someone interested in a port
21:57:00saratoga_i made it clear that these days i'm too busy to dive into porting
21:58:01[Saint]they, or rather, that one guy who keeps implying there's more people every possible instance, keeps saying that the port itself is largely done.
21:58:05saratoga_i should send it to Mihale :)
21:58:41[Saint]I offered to do their graphical work and never heard shit from them after a single very eager response.
21:58:44saratoga_plus i think these are MIPS right? working on MIPS after ten years of painfully optimizing ARM codecs would be too much for me
21:59:10[Saint]have you had much luck talking to this guy outside the forum?
21:59:20[Saint]perhaps I should try again.
21:59:35[Saint]see where they're at, or if they even retained the theme engine.
22:00:05saratoga_no, he just PMed me a while ago about demo units
22:00:23[Saint]I got one very enthusiastic response when this dude first popped up and then nothing for aaaaaaages.
22:00:54saratoga_sounds like a normal company response
22:01:29saratoga_i remember telling sandisk what was wrong with their Vorbis codec and they wrote me back immediately asking for a solution, i sent it to them, and then they never replied and never fixed it
22:02:00saratoga_companies have their own deliverables, so even free help is often not interesting to them if its a direction they aren't working on
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22:03:38[Saint]I've had a half dozen similar dealings with my telco, who buys piece of shit barebones tplink reference boards and slaps their own skin on it that breaks half the functionality and hides the other half.
22:04:25[Saint]they actually did pay me though.
22:04:40[Saint]the work (afaik) never made it out to anyone though.
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22:17:49wyatt8740saratoga: thanks for the explanation
22:19:19wyatt8740[Saint]: "Rockbox in general supports more lowmem targets by an overwhelming margin." True, but by the same metric the linux kernel supports more non-x86 targets than x86 targets
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22:19:36wyatt8740but how many people actually use, for example, the m68k target?
22:20:08wyatt8740I have suspicions that the majority of rockbox users have ipods now, if only because of how many ipods apple sold
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22:24:42wyatt8740I mean, if I could actually find an amiga 4000 at a decent price, I'd be using linux m68k
22:24:45wyatt8740but I can't
22:32:05pixelmaI don't have a single Ipod but 3 other Rockbox targets
22:41:21saratoga_I think AMS targets were in the lead for a while, but maybe iPods are more popular again since they last longer and can be repaired more easily
22:41:42saratoga_whereas AMS devices eventually die when the soldered on NAND fails
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23:17:08Bilgus_phAnything special that keeps you from replacing the flash?
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