Are we seeing evolution within sporting arts?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by mattt, Aug 31, 2013.

  1. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Many people say that everything has been done before, but having watched recent BJJ competition, along with MMA and Boxing I see styles changing and techniques that appear to be created in response to the current accepted standards within the sport.

    What do you think, are the pioneers in the sporting based arts creating something new, or has it all been done before?

    For starters, how about the Berimbolo?


    This technique had never been seen before in BJJ, and since it was 'created' by the Mendes brothers new counters have been 'created' to defend against it.

  2. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Funny, I've had a guy on Yahoo Answers try to tell me that some classic Jujitsu guy he knew back in the 1980's (who's name and ryu conveniently goes unmentioned, and of course he died almost 30 years ago) was pulling the Berimbolo off back then. My contention is that it's not a move that would have evolved without the circumstances surrounding it, those being:

    -continuous, protracted ground grappling
    -the use of the gi in said protracted ground grappling
    -the lack of a pin as a method to victory
    -the copious amounts of people competing under these rules

    I just don't think that move in particular could really have evolved anywhere else.

    I'm not going so far as to say that the "new" stuff has never been done before, but I do think that the sports in their current form have only existed relatively recently, which has allowed for the development of such techniques.
  3. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I generally agree, with the pedantic addition that it can be done without the Gi (but lets leave that for a sec) I do very much believe that it has been created through evolution, and we see this and other things to prove that sporting competition forces evolution.

    We could also take things like the old style boxing guard, or the fosby flop in the high jump.
  4. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    I've actually been looking up the no-gi version. Even the guys demoing it seem dubious about its application.

    Interestingly, there's been some discussion in the striking/MMA community about the merits of using some old-school boxing techniques in MMA due to the reduced glove surface. Certainly, there's some recognition that simply covering up is ineffective for that environment, but again, we're looking at a specific set of variables. Presumably, the gloves and wraps allow one to punch more than one could in the bareknuckle era, but some of the clinching and defense done in the transition era, with guys like Jack Johnson and Joe Louis, where the gloves were still smaller than they are today, should be revisited.
  5. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    In Japanese martial arts there is a concept called Shu Ha Ri, which means (roughly) learn, absorb, forget. It is a constant cycle of taking a technique and revising it, you do go back to old things and take the best from them.

    Re the No-Gi Berimbolo, perhaps that is a good example of the art evolving as we watch, people will not be sure of its application until it is proven in high level competition, but in the mean time people are working on it to refine the movement. Here's a good example in non comp setting:
  6. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    That's a novel interpretation. Where did you hear that?
  7. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    In Japan from a Japanese guy teaching Japanese martial arts.
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter


    It's not the normal Japanese interpretation given. This is closer to the one I've heard repeated time and time again from Japanese sources in different disciplines:

    I'd say either your source or your memory misspoke.
  9. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Semantics- the meaning is understood in a similar manner and what I understand does not conflict with Wiki.

    Shu - I say learn- wiki says learn
    Ha - I say absorb - wiki says detach
    Ri - I say forget - wiki says separate

    When I forget you never forget, you separate, perhaps I would say the wiki states it in a more succinct manner than I did in more commonly understood words, but the meaning is exactly the same (once you understand the meaning).

    I used the word 'roughly' in my post to cover that, but the thing is when talking in Japanese and picking correct English words its often 'close enough' to the essence of a word that can convey the meaning.

    Now- back to the task at hand - are the format of sports based martial arts conducive to evolution within the art?

    And a follow up question: why are people obsessed with secret instruction when people can find it for themselves through exploration under the pressure of competition?
  10. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    ^^I'm glad. I understood yours better :)
  11. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Protect, separate, understand.

    It's all pretty much saying the same thing, just depends on how deep you want to look at it.
  12. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    And your perspective- koryu to protect form sporty to assimilate form into arsenal.
  13. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Protect the form by performing it as closely as possible to your teacher, separate by reaching personal understanding and "style", understand by making it wholly your own or as my teacher says "in your bones".
  14. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Ah, forget as a rough translation of 'move away from, separate, transcend'.

    I understand you now.
  15. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Words are a tricky beast, but via the internet often all we have to communicate (other than Rick Astley videos).

    But yes, I think we are all talking about the same thing. Another way I would seek to define 'Ri' would be to not become attached to what you have learnt thus far as you can be limited by holding onto it, therefore cast it from your mind, but remember the essence of it.

    Then, revisit, with your deeper level of understanding and cycle through again, ideally with each cycle your maturity and wisdom will evolve, though ironically it can be the case that you find yourself after time at the same place where you started, but perhaps whilst it is the same, it is not.
  16. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    'Classic' Bareknuckle Boxing techniques are designed to cope with Grappling - There being a lot of grappling in BKB systems. And also up until the rescinding of The London Prize Ring Rules and instatement of the Queensbury Rules.

    Same with most BKB guards - Designed to suppress your opponent's ability to clinch and 'bar' (strangle, crank etc) and throw, trip, reap etc you.

    Also you need to understand that Bareknuckle Boxing is adapted from and still applicable to the use of weapons (sticks and blades).

    Modern day wraps and gloves allow you to punch harder with a turned over (palm down) fist, particularly.

    Most bareknuckle strikes are done either with a diagonal fist - to promote the proper alignment of the forearm bones - and to strike using the powerline (see 'Championship Fighting by Jack Dempsey).

    Or with a vertical fist. Or with a palms up fist (certain hand blows like 'the chopper' and straight leads done with a dropstep use a palm up combined with elliptical shoulder roll).

    Some modern boxing punches - i.e the modern palm down hook - can ONLY be safely delivered with gloves on.

    Try punching somebody raw-handed with a palm down hook. 50% chance you break your fist (the most common 'boxer's fracture' with gloves on too).

    Hand blows including hammerfists, palm strikes, foreknuckle and doorknock knuckle striking are only a small part of the striking commonly used in BKB styles.

    You'll also see grinding arms (hacksaws ala Silat, Kuntao etc), Backarming (Roundel Blows) - the entire 'bar' of the arm, 'clip' elbows (in conjunction with punching and not as sophisticated as south-east asian 'kickboxing' systems), strikes with the shoulder and flanks, trips, foot stomps and pins and some low-line kicking.

    Best examples found in the 1975 Movie 'Hard Times' (Charles Bronson, James Coburn etc). Set in the early 1930s in the states. Directed by Walter Hill (who did The Warriors, 48 hours etc).

    The fight scene in the cage (middle major fight scene between Bronson and Robert Tessier) shows the gamut of technicals to be found in most BKB systems.


    So does the end scene in the oyster yard.

    Practical development in Combat Sports depends upon the framework-ruleset. Specialisation often becoming a factor.

    Good Luck
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Heres a great article that discusses the evolution of BJJ and the inverted guard -

    ''Crossfacing was the strongest pass, but inversion tactics changed that

    A few years back a relatively innocuous purple belt started catching the BJJ community’s attention with his unusual guard tactics. Basically, turning upside down and “inverting” to face the passer, Ryan Hall shielded his head from crossfacing, and his guard seemed impossible to pass.

    Naturally as the passer could now no longer easily crossface to start applying pressure he would have to try run around. Thus we started seeing “diversion” style passing develop – leg drags etc. And when people started realizing “selective” inversion could be useful for sweeping from new positions – spider/DLR sweeps started incorporating “inversion” elements. You get the idea.

    Inversion is a very good technique in sport BJJ obviously is something worth incorporating. It might have been seen as a very negative/passive guard when done in isolation/exclusively but when combined with other tactics can lead to very exciting BJJ. The offensive and defensive possibilities expand tremendously if you can invert and come out from behind the passer. Due to inverting’s popularity now, “crossfacing” has disappeared somewhat at the lighter weight classes (and replaced with a different type of pressure pass – leg dragging) but it’s still a staple at the heavier weights.''

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