A Former Jehovah's Witness shares her me too story

by LisaRose 23 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Fred Franztone
    Fred Franztone

    That's exactly what I was saying! How can you not see that? You've misinterpreted me, I was saying that not all drunk sex is rape, not that no drunk sex is rape. Surely you understand.

    Again, I wasn't responding to the initial post, and you know that, please don't twist my words. I was responding ONLY to the statement that drunk people can't consent. No distinction was made between passed out drunk people and tipsy people and that's what I was pointing out. It's as if it were being said that couples in a relationship can't even have drunk sex, or that all drunken one night stands are rape.

    If a distinction had been made then I wouldn't have commented because I agree that there is a difference, that was entirely my point. I was the one pointing out the distinction, not denying it. I was saying that JWundubbed couldn't see the distinction or at least wasn't being clear about it. If it's wrong to make no distinction in one direction, then it's wrong to make no distinction in the other direction also, I'm sure we agree on this.

    And please don't accuse me of being a potential rapist, which is what you were essentially doing at the end of your post.

  • jwundubbed

    Fred Franztone,

    Don't use this to push your own puritanical agenda. Saying that all drunk sex is rape is a ridiculous assertion. I'd wager that for most couples, drunken sex will have accounted for many of their happiest times together.

    In the United States drunk sex is actually considered rape legally. If both people are drunk they can both be legally charged with rape. I was stating a fact of law, not my personal opinion. And even if the people involved are a couple or married it is still considered rape, by law. What exactly do you think my 'agenda' is?

    But if your mind is altered then you aren't capable of making informed consensual choices and so I happen to agree with this particular law. In other countries... you would have to look it up top see if drunk sex is legally considered rape.

    If one person has sex with another person while they are unconscious, regardless of if the person is drunk, asleep, in a coma, or drugged... then the person initiating sex is committing rape, legally speaking.

    Legally, the lines aren't very grey. If a person is inebriated then they cannot legally consent to sex. So, to all of you who responded... legally there isn't a big difference in what counts as non-consensual sex when alcohol or other mind altering substances are involved. There may be a big difference in how those cases are prosecuted or in what sentence one gets from such a charge.

  • Fred Franztone
    Fred Franztone

    Where are you getting that from? That's not true in the slightest. The only state in which that's remotely true is California, and even there it's only rape if there's no verbal consent. With verbal consent it's not rape, even when drunk. Outside of California it's not de facto rape to have sex when drunk.

    Rape is sex without consent, and consent is not compromised every time someone gets merry. To even suggest that the law makes no distinction between an equally drunk couple having sex and a sober man raping an inebriated women is just absurd.

  • jwundubbed

    If a woman claims a man raped her while she was drunk and then he counters that she had sex with him while he was drunk, both people can be charged with rape. See how that works? The law doesn't make as many distinctions as you seem to think it does, because laws don't cover every single possible situation. That is what prosecuters, lawyers, judges, and jurries are for.

    I think you are the one who is mistaken. Got to any university campus where they are teaching students about what rape actually is and you will find that if a person cannot consent, then it is rape. If a person is under the influence of a substance which removes their ability to consent... then it is rape.

    Is every single person charged just because they had sex while drunk? No. Again, the law doesn't work that way.

    It's only rape if there's no verbal consent...

    Your understanding of the law is outdated.

  • Xanthippe

    Thanks for sharing this LisaRose. I do feel so sorry for that poor young woman. The thought of what she'd been through and then those stupid old men disfellowship her.

    Growing up in a congregation you’re always aware that you are seen as a lesser being, that you have a position underneath men.
    I have said this many times and I would like to point it out again that right from birth you are a lesser being in this religion despite a very vociferous poster who keeps insisting that women have an easy time of it.
  • OrphanCrow
    xanhippie: ...despite a very vociferous poster who keeps insisting that women have an easy time of it.

    Ah...it sounds like someone is proposing a pro-slavery argument based on "we treat them well and they have it so good...don't know why they are revolting"


    This world will never change. Evolution has such a long way to go before we are a species of civilized beings

  • Xanthippe
    Evolution has such a long way to go before we are a species of civilized beings - OrphanCrow

    Indeed it does, but I still hold out hope that humankind will make it.

  • flipper

    LISA ROSE- Thanks for the opening thread. Because of observing this from a man's standpoint in whom his mother raised him up right in respecting equal rights of women I find it disgusting how this poor woman was treated by these elders and the man who raped her. When a woman says no, she means no. These elders bringing down the hammer of blame on her by disfellowshipping her was disgusting. And how many hundreds if not thousands of times have JW judicial committees made those kind of unjust decisions in the past ?

    That was part of what caused me to exit this disgusting organization back in 2003. I observed many times elders always acting like they were appointed by " God " himself - even when they gave out idiotic counsel and insanely stupid judgments ! As in this woman's case. I experienced very unjust treatment as well from JW elders.

    To treat rape the same way as two consenting adults having sex is nothing but abuse of the victim involved. It's like they've had an open sore or scab torn open again by insensitive men who don't have an ounce of sensitivity within them.

    Ladies- not all men on this planet are like that. There are many of us who get totally outraged at this abusive conduct towards women just like you do. And we are those men who will stand up right along side you in women's marches for equal rights and treatment.

    Whether it's abuse towards women or minor children being abused- I feel we all have a responsibility to call it what it is- crimes against humanity and abuse of power. It's how I see this. Whether it happens by government officials, or within religions being winked at by elders in JW's or pastors of churches - it needs to be vigorously exposed and prevented and stopped

  • Nemesis007

    It's item of interest that "The Story of Dinah" and "you’re a brainwashed individual" was included in this "report." That's a bit over the top and should lead a person to question the journalistic integrity of mass media and cyberspace. I've never heard of KQED news or any trend among Jehovah's Witnesses in excommunicating a person when there's credible evidence someone was raped.

    It's a voluntary decision to report a crime punishable by law to congregation elders and/or legal authorities. The victim never voluntarily contacted the police and reported this rape. You can use the excuse that she was "brainwashed," but these metaphysical arguments have no veracity in a court of law so I therefore do not have to accept the opinion of this two-bit journalist.

  • LisaRose

    Another Me Too Story:

    I was asked to relate an experience by another poster, who wishes to remain anonymous. She has never told anyone, because she was too ashamed and embarrased. It is like many stories I have read over the years, both here and elsewhere in the way she was treated by the elders. She was digitally assaulted by a so-called "professional" brother who worked in the medical field when she was 19 and under anesthesia.

    I woke up on the table convulsing and shivering and he'd pulled out my breasts from my bra and shirt also. He had to call an ambulance because I wouldn't snap out of my convulsive state and he would face malpractice if I didn't receive the appropriate medical attention. I spoke with the hospital personnel once I'd come to properly. They called the police who then ran a report and had two detectives investigate the brother. It got back to my congregational elders and they forcibly insisted I meet with them to discuss the details. I said "no" because it was too traumatic for me. They kept pushing and even went so far as to say that the accused had formed a counter case with HIS elders against ME. I told the elders firmly that I deny in advance anything said and that if they had further questions, they can contact the detectives and/or the police. My elders kept pushing and pushing, saying "if someone were making an allegation against me, I'd at least want to hear what they were accusing me of!" I cried and said I wasn't interested because it would hurt me even more, adding insult to trauma. From then on, I couldn't even look my elders in the eye because of the disapproving looks they had on their faces. It felt like they were accusing me with their eyes for hiding something. All because I didn't want to get in that back room with them and listen to what the man who I'd been sexually assaulted by had said to vilify me. "

    I am sure it was very difficult for her to tell this story, she told me that at one point she typed it and then back spaced it all out. Obviously she felt it important to get this story out and I am so glad she did, kudos to her for taking the risk. The more women who tell their stories, the easier it will be for others. No woman should feel embarrassed and ashamed because of the actions of the men who assault them.

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