What does the WBTS teach about

by Mrs Smith 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Mrs Smith
    Mrs Smith

    The King of the North and the King of the South. The last time I paid attention it was Russian and USA. What do they teach now?

  • oompa

    King of the north is now "a mystery--unknown" as it changes through the ages. Pretty sure Britain and USA are the South. Some are speculating Islam may be the new North.

    not many kings around now.....oompa

  • WTWizard

    Who knows with that organization. They just want to confuse the flock so no one can do any fully integrated thinking, which would ruin the whole organization. Ultimately, if the FDA gets its way, we could become the new King of the North, and the former Soviet Union could end up becoming the new King of the South. And then they could easily flip it again, just to further confuse the flock so they won't be able to integrate where they actually are in the stream of time. Result: They will fall for the scam of being right at the very end.

  • Honesty

    Depends on what source their spiritual food comes from on the day they decide to address the subject.

  • greendawn

    I believe now they are just puzzled by the failure of their interpretation of the king of the north as the (now ex) Soviet Union and communism in general and haven't yet pronounced anything on the issue. There doesn't seem to be anything at present to fit in as the king of the north, it was all a shambles.

  • moggy lover
    moggy lover

    This is the latest position of the "Prophets of god" as found in their book "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy" page281:

    "Who will be this king when Dan11:44 is fulfilled?Will he be identified with one of the countries that were once part of the former Soviet Union? Or will he change his identity entirely as he has done a number of times already? Will the development of nuclear weapons by additional nations result in a new arms race and have a bearing on the identity of that king? "Only time will provide answers to these questions. We are wise not to speculate"

    Strange that jehoover should leave his "prophets" out of the loop on so vital a subject as our future. In fact he DID at one time reveal who this king was, and there was NO need for his prophets to "speculate" - wisely or otherwise. In fact the prideful boast of the WTS was that "god" DID reveal his secrets to his servants the prophets, but now? They are left, not to the revelation of "god" but to time. Check the newspapers. Here is where the WTS will find this identity. They will then pompously trump up the idea that "god" revealed this to them!!!

    But in that case we are all prophets of "god" since we all read the newspapers.


  • bsmart

    Any new info???? I want to ask my sister and see but it's better if there was another point I could make.

  • Finkelstein

    This may help you out in the understanding what the bible really meant concerning the King of the North and the King of the South .....

    History of ancient Israel and Judah:

    In compiling the history of ancient Israel and Judah, there are many available sources, including the Jewish Tanakh, the Old Testament of the Christian Bible, the writings of Josephus, other writings, and archeology.

    Depending on their interpretation, some writers see these sources as being in conflict. This article attempts to give a conservative scholarly view which would currently be supported by most historians. The precise dates are in many cases subject to continuing discussion and challenge.

    Early history:

    The Canaanites were the earliest known inhabitants of the area, and can be traced at least to the 3rd millennium BCE. They became urbanized and lived in city-states, one of which was Jericho. The area's location at the center of routes linking three continents made it the meeting place for religious and cultural influences from Egypt, Syria, Mesopotamia, and Asia Minor. It was also the natural battleground for the great powers of the region and subject to domination by adjacent empires, beginning with Egypt in the late 3rd millennium BCE.

    The patriarchal period:

    The history traditionally begins with Abraham being promised by God that he would become the father of a great nation. If the events described in the Bible actually took place, they would appear to take place circa 1800 BCE. Somewhere near this time, Terah and his son Abram (later named Abraham) move from the Sumerian city of Ur to the city of Haran. Abraham declares his belief in the One God, which initiates the beginning of Judaism. Abraham marries Sarai (later named Sarah). Abraham and his extended clan move to the land of Canaan (Israel).

    Abraham's grandson Jacob was later renamed Israel and, according to the Biblical account, his 12 sons became the fathers of the 12 tribes of Israel.

    How did the descendants of the Israelites become slaves? Did they become slaves at all? The historical background behind this narrative is unclear. A few historians believe that this may have been due to the changing political conditions within Egypt.

    1300 BCE. - If Moses was an actual historical figure, the Bible indicates that this may be the time that he was born. According to the Bible, Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt. According to the Biblical narrative, the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years and eventually came to "the promised land" in Canaan. Moses died before entering Canaan, and Joshua became the next leader.

    1200 BCE. - The Hittite empire was conquered by allied tribes from the north. The northern, coastal Canaanites (called the Phoenicians by the Greeks) were temporarily displaced, but returned when the invading tribes showed no inclination to settle. The Egyptians called the horde that swept across Asia Minor and the Mediterranean the Sea Peoples. At the head of this alliance of Sea Peoples were the Peleshet, known in the Bible as the Philistines. They possibly originated on the island of Crete.

    Around 1200 BCE, Israel was led by a series of judges, before establishing a true kingdom. In 1185 BCE the Sea Peoples invaded Egypt, but were repelled. The Peleshet were deflected northward, and they settled in Canaan, in the cities of Gaza, Ashkelon, and Ashdod.

    1140 BCE. - the Canaanite tribes tried to destroy the Israelite tribes of northern and central Canaan. According to the Bible, the Israelite response was led by Barak, and the Hebrew prophet Devorah. The Canaanites were defeated.

    1030 BCE. - The tribes settled in the land of Israel. It was a time of unrest and strife. Saul became the first king of the Israelites in approximately 1020 BCE. David succeeded him in 1006 BCE, and moved the capital from Hebron to Jerusalem. David waged several, successful military campaigns, annexing Philistia, Edom, Moab, Ammon, and parts of ancient Aram (Syria) known as Aram-Zobah, and Aram-Damascus. Aram itself became a vassal state of Israel under David.

    David was succeeded by his son Solomon in about 965 BCE, who constructed the Temple of Solomon at Jerusalem and had a prosperous reign. However, on Solomon's death in 926 BCE the kingdom began to fragment, bisecting into the kingdom of Israel in the north (including the cities of Shechem and Samaria) and the kingdom of Judah in the south (containing Jerusalem). In 922 BCE, the Kingdom of Israel divided. Judah, the southern Kingdom, had Jerusalem as its capital and was led by Rehoboam. It was populated by the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Simeon (and some of tribe of Levi). Simeon and Judea later merged together, and Simeon lost it's separate identity.

    Jeroboam led the revolt of the northern tribes and established the Kingdom of Israel, which consisted of nine tribes: tribe of Zebulun, tribe of Issachar, tribe of Asher, tribe of Naphtali, tribe of Dan, tribe of Manasseh, tribe of Ephraim, tribe of Reuben and tribe of Gad (and some of Levi), with Samaria as its capital.

    · Kingdom of Israel · Kingdom of Judah

    Israel fell to the Assyrians in 721 BCE; Judah fell to the Babylonians a little over a century later in 597 BCE. The people today known as 'Jews' are descended from the southern half of ancient Israel. Most people mistakenly think that the southern Kingdom was only populated by those Jews from the tribe of Judah and Bejamin, but this is not exactly so. In Bibical times, Israel was originally one country. Eventually, it suffered through a civil war which split it into two parts. This happened in 922 BCE. Jeroboam led the revolt of the northern tribes and established the (northern) Kingdom of Israel. It consisted of nine landed tribes: Zebulun, Issachar, Asher, Naphtali, Dan, Manaseh, Ephraim, Reuben and Gad, and some of Levi [which had no land allocation]. This makes ten tribes, which later became known as "the lost ten tribes". However, Manaseh and Ephraim technically count as just one full tribe, so their were really eight full landed tribes, and part of one tribe without land. Samaria was its capital.

    Judah, the southern Kingdom, has Jerusalem as its capital and was led by King Rehoboam. It is populated by the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Simeon (and also some of Levi). Simeon and Judea later merged together, and Simeon lost its separate identity.

    In 722 BCE, the Assyrians, under Shalmaneser, and then under Sargon, conquered Israel (the northern Kingdom), destroyed its capital Samaria, and sent the Israelites into exile and captivity. Much of the nine landed tribes of the northern kingdom become 'lost'. However, what is less commonly know is that many people from the conquered northern kingdom fled south to safety in Judea, the Southern Kingdom, which maintained its independence. By this time the nation of Judah then was populated with Israelites from Judah, Bejamain, Shimeon, some of Levi, and many from all of the other tribes as well.

    729-687 BCE. - Reign of King Hezekiah of Judah, one of the greatest kings of Judah. He initiated reforms that eliminated idolatry.

    687-638 BCE. - Reign of King Manaseh.

    638-637 BCE. - Reign of King Amon. These two kings reversed Hezekiah's reforms and revived idolatry.

    637-607 BCE. - The reign of King Josiah was accompanied by a religious reformation. While repairs were made on the Temple, the Book of the Law was discovered (this was probably the book of Deuteronomy).

    612 BCE. - King Nabopalassar of Babylonia attacked and destroyed the Assyrian capitol city of Nineveh and regained Babylonia's independence. The Assyrian empire was destroyed.

    587 BCE. - Babylon, under King Nebuchadnezzar II, seized Jerusalem. The First Temple was destroyed; the date was the 9th of Av, Tisha B'Av.

  • Bobcat

    The current WT understanding is that if you try to figure it out you are "speculating." But when they come out with anything it is "new light."

    Many believe the prophecy focuses on the Maccabean period. But that issue aside, just looking at what the end of the prophecy states:

    The final action in the prophecy that deals with the KoN in his relationship with the KoS says:

    (Daniel 11:43 NWT) ". . .And he will actually rule over the hidden treasures of the gold and the silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt. And the Lib′y·ans and the E·thi·o′pi·ans will be at his steps."

    Egypt was the KoS. So this points to the KoN coming into economic control over the KoS, and the KoS's neighbors (the Libyans and Ethiopians) taking the side of the KoN. After this the action in the prophecy describes how the KoN comes to his end.

    In Rev 13, the two-horned lamb is shown exercising economic control. (Rev 13:16, 17) But just before the end, the "10 horns" give their power and authority to the scarlet wild beast. (Rev chapter 17)

    IF (did I say IF?), but IF the two-horned lamb pictures the Anglo-American world power, and IF the "10 horns" are referring to the 10 horns from Daniel chapter 7, then the events have this correspondency:

    Egypt = Two horned Lamb (GB/USA)

    Lybia/Ethiopia = 10 horns (European Nations)

    KoN = Scarlet Wild Beast (UN)

    The US/GB lose their economic dominence just before the end, coming under some form of UN sponsered economic control supported or agreed to by the EU. A not implausible scenario even from a purely secular viewpoint.

    And for any who wish to debate it, I was simply hypothasizing ("IF"). You'll have to debate it with someone else.

  • Jeffro

    Basically they haven't been game to make up anything since then.

    I posted the following elsewhere some time ago...

    In the Daniel's Prophecy book (1999), they claimed the 'king of the north' was Russia until 1991 and that the 'king of the south' was the USA. In that book, they claimed that the identify of the 'king of the north' is unclear since the end of the Cold War. They have not since claimed any specific identity for the 'king of the north', and have only mentioned the 'king of the north' at all six times (in four articles) and the 'king of the south' four times (in two articles and one book), since the release of the Daniel's Prophecy book.
    Appearances in The Watchtower:


    King of South

    King of North



















    Appearances in Awake!


    King of South

    King of North













    *Not counting appearance as crossword answer or unrelated context

    Appearances in Insight on the Scriptures (never claims any modern identity):
    North: 27, South: 10

    Appearances in other JW books:
    Isaiah's Prophecy I (2000): North: 2, South: 1
    Daniel's Prophecy (1999): North: 172, South: 101
    All Scripture (1990): North: 7, South: 6
    Revelation Climax (1988): North: 2, South: 1
    World Government (1977): North: 3, South: 3
    Paradise Restored (1972): North: 4, South: 0

    It would appear they've lost interest since the ambiguity of Daniel's (misapplied) Prophecy.

    The story of the 'kings of the north and south' in Daniel chapter 11 are about Greek and Egyptian rulers up to the second century BC, which coincides with when the chapter is believed to have been written. The identification of verses 5-19 (by JWs and other scholars) with the Seleucus (I-II), Antiochus (II-III) and Ptolemy (I-V) lines is accurate enough. Unremarkably, the continuing verses can be attributed to their immediate successors without a great deal of effort:




    Notes - See linked Wikipedia article for details


    Seleucus IV Philopator


    Attempted to raise funds, sending his prime minister, Heliodorus, to Jerusalem to confiscate the temple's treasures. ('Believers' instead attempt to connect this verse with Caesar Augustus as a 'Messianic prophecy') He was murdered by Heliodorus, "not in anger or in warfare", but for his throne.


    Antiochus IV Epiphanes


    v.21: Took throne claiming to be co-regent, later killed the other
    v.22-24: Attacked Jerusalem.
    v. 25: Went to war with Egypt ('king of the south').
    v. 30b-39 Maccabean revolt; banned Jewish religion (the 'constant feature'),


    Ptolemy VI


    v.25: At war with Antiochus IV
    v.26: Driven out by his brother

    The attribution of more recent identities is entirely fictitious. Even the connection with Aurelian and Zenobia was made up (it first appeared in December 31 1924 Golden Age, though claimed that the king of the south after that was Napoleon) let alone the ludicrous leap to the modern age. It is of course unsurprising that an 'end times' religion seeks to tenuously identify these 'mysterious' kings with the present day.

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