Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1492

1 Wednesday, 1 August 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.18 a.m.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning. You may be seated.

6 Good morning. I believe we still have a rather busy programme until the

7 end of the week, but I hope that we shall be able to bring to the end this

8 whole series of depositions.

9 Prosecutor, are we working this morning in a closed session, if

10 I'm correct? Are these the protections? If not, then we can -- if that

11 is the case, then we can bring the witness right in.

12 MR. SCOTT: Good morning, Mr. Fourmy. The witness this morning

13 has only asked for a pseudonym and facial image distortion, so of course

14 he will have to be protected when he comes into the courtroom, but other

15 than that, the courtroom can be opened once he's protected.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17 Usher, please bring the witness in.

18 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for this witness is J.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Fourmy. Mr. Fourmy.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning and thank you for coming

22 to the Tribunal to make a deposition. You asked for protection measures.

23 One of these protection measures will be a pseudonym, so that your

24 pseudonym will be Witness J. So do not hold it against people who will

25 call you "Mr. J" or "Witness J" during these proceedings, all right?

Page 1493

1 Now, before you begin to make your deposition, I will ask you to

2 make the solemn declaration which the usher will show you.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]



7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please sit down. Try to

8 make yourself relatively comfortable, neither too close nor too far from

9 the microphone. The usher will now give you a sheet of paper with your

10 name. Do not say your name aloud; just say if that is your name or not.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it is.

12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 MR. FOURMY: [No interpretation]

14 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

15 MR. FOURMY: [No interpretation]

16 THE REGISTRAR: Translators, please check your buttons.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] This is the first time that I've had

18 French. It must be a technical problem, obviously. Yes, I can see the

19 smaller red light blinking.

20 THE REGISTRAR: The translators changed their buttons, so that was

21 the problem. Thank you.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. We won't now have a

23 button war.

24 Witness J, are you feeling all right? The Prosecutor will ask you

25 questions first and then it will be the turn of the Defence.

Page 1494

1 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

2 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. If we could start just about

3 literally one or two minutes in private session, please.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, can you do it?

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1495

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, you can go on.


15 Q. Witness J, again just to be very clear, we are now in public

16 session, which means you're still protected but what you're saying is

17 being transmitted, and so I've already had you identify your village off

18 the record, so to speak, or in private session, I should say, so it may

19 not be necessary, and I would say -- I would suggest that you not then

20 mention the name of your village or any other details about your

21 identity. You can just talk about your village, but you don't have to say

22 -- if you think you need to, but you don't need to say the name of your

23 village, okay?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, you were a member of the Territorial Defence, and did you

Page 1496

1 fight, were you on the confrontation line, against the Serbs?

2 A. I was.

3 Q. And were you fighting essentially together with the Croats or the

4 HVO against the Serbs?

5 A. We were.

6 Q. And at that -- up to the point in time that you were arrested,

7 which we will come to in just a moment, did you believe that you and the

8 Muslims -- other Muslims and the Croats essentially were, up to that

9 point, on the same side, if we can put it that way?

10 A. Yes. I did think that because we were the Territorial Defence

11 until the 1st of July, and then we were placed under the command of the

12 HVO on the 1st of July, and we fought together for a year.

13 Q. And in fact, during that approximate one-year period, did you

14 consider yourself either part of or in any event under the command of the

15 HVO?

16 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand. Could you repeat the question?

17 Q. Of course. Up until the time of your arrest, from approximately

18 July 1992 forward, did you consider yourself essentially part of the HVO?

19 (redacted)

20 Q. Now, directing your attention, please, to the 1st of July 1993,

21 approximately, what happened to you that day?

22 A. I was arrested by HVO troops.

23 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, did you know some of these HVO

24 soldiers who arrested you? Did you know them either by name or at least

25 by sight?

Page 1497

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 Q. All right. Now, was this surprising to you, that you were

6 arrested on about the 1st of July 1993?

7 A. Yes, yes, yes.

8 Q. Did you consider at that time that you had given the HVO any cause

9 to arrest you?

10 A. I don't think there was any cause when I look back upon all that

11 time. I believe everything was fine until that moment.

12 Q. And why do you think you were arrested on the 1st of July?

13 A. Well, only because I'm a Muslim.

14 Q. Now, were a number of other Muslim men arrested along with you or

15 about the same time that day?

16 A. Yes, yes, yes, some 30 of us.

17 Q. And could you see or did you come to know that the HVO had sort of

18 -- had some sort of record or list of the people that were supposed to be

19 arrested?

20 A. Yes. This one whose nickname I mentioned, Toni, he had a list of

21 men. He was in the same army as I was, so I presume he got it from the

22 commander, or I don't know who from, but he carried around a list and the

23 list of weapons registered and the numbers of these. And then they

24 arrested us and only he would just circle the name and check if the weapon

25 had been seized and would then check it against the number of that rifle.

Page 1498

1 Q. Now, did you know around this time or did you hear that, in

2 addition to this list, a local Croat woman was assisting the HVO soldiers

3 in pointing out the Muslim houses?

4 A. I did not see it personally, but I heard from others that there

5 was a neighbour, a female, who must have shown them the Muslim houses.

6 They could not know which were the Muslim and which were the Croat houses

7 because the residents there were mixed.

8 Q. Now, where were you and the others taken who were arrested that

9 day? What happened next?

10 A. After we were arrested, we were put in a truck under a canvas and

11 we assumed we were going in the direction of Capljina, and that is how it

12 was, and we were brought to Dretelj.

13 Q. And is it correct, sir, that at Dretelj, you were kept in some

14 sort of a military installation with what might be described as hangars?

15 A. That's right. Those were hangars or some military depots of the

16 former army, the Yugoslav army. Those were some depots, some warehouses.

17 There were hangars and underground tunnels there, and some isolation

18 cells, but we spent most of the time in the hangar.

19 Q. Now, which HVO unit did you understand controlled or operated the

20 facility, this camp at Dretelj?

21 A. It was the military police, the boss of which was Ivica Kraljevic.

22 Q. Is it correct, sir, because we are not going to spend much or any

23 additional time on this particular location, but you stayed then at

24 Dretelj, at this installation, for approximately 21 days; is that correct?

25 A. It is.

Page 1499

1 Q. All right. Now, at the end of that time that I just mentioned to

2 you and which you agree, what happened next?

3 A. Next they singled out some 400 of us and transferred us to the

4 Heliodrom.

5 Q. All right. And once you were -- generally speaking, once you got

6 to the Heliodrom, where were you kept there and how were you treated?

7 A. When we got to the Heliodrom, we were put in a school. It was --

8 it used to be a military school before, and we spent seven days there.

9 After that, we were transferred to the gymnasium.

10 Q. Now, during this time period, were you, Witness J, taken out a

11 number of times from the Heliodrom and used to perform various forced

12 labour on behalf of the HVO?

13 A. That's right, that's right, that year.

14 Q. And would you please tell us generally what the procedure was by

15 which you would be selected and taken out of the Heliodrom for these

16 labour projects.

17 A. Sorry, how do you mean? Could you clarify it, please?

18 Q. Of course. You were staying at this time, if you will, you were

19 being held at this facility called the Heliodrom; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you've just told us a moment ago that during this time, you

22 were being taken from the Heliodrom to perform forced labour; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What I'm asking you now is can you just describe to us the

Page 1500












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1501

1 procedure or the steps taken, perhaps if I can say each morning or

2 whenever it was, by which you would be selected and taken to these labour

3 projects.

4 A. Oh, yes. Well, somebody from the area of responsibility would

5 come, that is, from the place where one had to go, comes there, or two or

6 three of them. It varied. They come from a military police who guarded

7 us and they opened the door for them, and they enter and then they pick

8 out men they want, and take them to their area of responsibility.

9 Q. All right. Now, Witness J, if I understood you well, what you've

10 indicated is it was the HVO unit for whom you were going to work that day

11 or during that period who would send representatives to the Heliodrom and

12 these representatives would then select you and take you to the location

13 where you performed the work; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, yes, it is.

15 Q. Now, again during this time, then, were you in fact taken to a

16 number of locations in and about the Mostar area for the purposes of

17 performing labour?

18 A. That's right, yes.

19 Q. All right. Now, Witness J, I'm going to ask you, it doesn't have

20 to necessarily be an exhaustive list, but can you tell us, please, some of

21 the locations where you were taken to perform labour in Mostar?

22 A. Yes. I was taken to Pothum, next to an old cinema called

23 Partizan, to Stela's, the third elementary school, Santiceva street,

24 Bakijina Luka, then down to a place called Gatavci Kuce, and Rodoc near

25 the Aviator's Bridge, Buna, at Malo Polje, Gubavica, Stotina. These are

Page 1502

1 the locations.

2 Q. All right. Now, Witness J, you just mentioned, as one of these

3 locations, Stela's, and can you tell us approximately how many times do

4 you recall that you worked specifically for Stela's unit?

5 A. I worked at -- on his line in Stela's area of responsibility seven

6 times, and I went there for the last 15 or 20 days, every morning. Dinko,

7 his driver, would come to get us in his freight vehicle, TAM, that is we

8 called him Tamic, and we would be taken to the automobile association at

9 Tresnjica.

10 Q. All right. Now, if I understand you right now, you said that the

11 person from Stela's group that would pick you up and take you into the

12 confrontation line was someone named Dinko; is that correct?

13 A. Dinko would come to Heliodrom to get us and would take us to

14 Stela's command, or headquarters, as you like. That was his duty.

15 Q. Now, did you know -- you've mentioned simply the name Stela, but

16 did you know whether this unit had a name, or how was it referred to by

17 perhaps you and the other prisoners or by the HVO soldiers, if you heard

18 them?

19 A. It was group ATG, but everybody said "Stela's."

20 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, please, on these occasions,

21 approximately seven times when you were taken to Stela's area of

22 responsibility, did you ever see Stela himself, the person Stela?

23 A. I did, yes, several times.

24 Q. Did you ever see and hear Stela interact with or make references

25 to Muslims or the Muslim prisoners?

Page 1503

1 A. Well, they didn't communicate with us much. We would come in the

2 morning, he'd say, "Will somebody go there, somebody go over there," and

3 that would be it.

4 Q. All right. Let me rephrase my question, and probably -- I'm sure

5 it was my fault; I wasn't clear. Did you ever hear Stela use any

6 particular terms or language in referring to the Muslims?

7 A. A term -- he called us extremists and, at times, balijas, but

8 mostly he referred to us as extremists.

9 Q. Now, in connection with this Stela, just so the record is clear,

10 did you hear the name in reference to this same person Martinovic?

11 A. I did, yes. His full name is Vinko Martinovic and his nickname is

12 Stela.

13 Q. All right. Now, tell us briefly -- I haven't really asked you up

14 until this moment, but when you were taken to these locations on the

15 confrontation line in Mostar, what type of projects or work were you

16 forced to perform?

17 A. Well, these works included from filling the bags, carrying them,

18 making bunkers, then building them across the line, digging trenches, and

19 so on.

20 Q. All right. Now, on one particular occasion, sir, do you recall

21 that you were working on Santiceva Street when one of your co-prisoners

22 was shot and killed?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who was that?

25 A. It was Puljic [as interpreted] Enver, from Stolac.

Page 1504

1 Q. And was it the fact, sir, that many of the times that you were

2 engaged in this forced labour, you were essentially in the midst of or

3 exposed to hostile fire or an exchange of gunfire from both sides?

4 A. Yes. We were always exposed when we were brought to the line to

5 work there. We were always exposed to fire.

6 Q. And is that the way, in fact, in which Mr. Puljic -- Puzic, excuse

7 me, Puzic, was killed?

8 A. I'm sorry; his name is Puzic, not Puljic. In connection with him,

9 I can tell you that we were standing in front of the post office. We

10 appeared to have finished our work. In the meantime, some sandbags fell

11 down the wall. They sent him back to repair it and he was killed. From

12 where the shot came, I don't know exactly. He was hit in the head, in the

13 stomach, and in the leg, and we came to pick him up. He had fallen among

14 the sandbags. And then the Croatian side responded and the army side,

15 that is, the Muslims, and they yelled that there should be a ceasefire so

16 that he could be pulled out, that is, his body could be pulled out, and

17 that is what we did. We pulled the corpse out from between the two lines,

18 and then the shooting continued as soon as we had pulled the body out.


20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I apologise,

21 Mr. Scott, for interrupting you, but I have to object to this last

22 question. Actually, in our language, it was quite clear that in answer to

23 a question from my learned friend Mr. Scott, the witness clearly said that

24 he was talking about a man called Puljic.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's not Puljic. I

Page 1505

1 apologise.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] After that, my learned friend,

3 through his question, reminded the witness of the surname. Because Puljic

4 and Puzic, in our language, could be compared to surnames like Krsnik and

5 Lasan, not to use an example in the English language. They're quite

6 different names, in other words. That is my objection. In fact, the

7 Prosecutor offered to the witness the name. He actually provided the

8 answer on behalf of the witness. Thank you, and I apologise once again

9 for interrupting.

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, I understand what you are

11 saying. I think this applies to the second or maybe third question put by

12 the Prosecutor. But I think that the first question was an open-ended

13 one, because the Prosecutor simply asked the witness whether any one of

14 his co-prisoners was killed, and then the witness gave an answer, giving

15 the name of the person who was killed. So I think I must insist once

16 again that when names are given by the Prosecutor, by the Defence, by a

17 witness, that those names should be spelled immediately. In that case,

18 there will be no doubts or difficulties. So your objection has entered in

19 the record, so you may continue.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I don't want to waste any

21 more time. That was not the point. But the next question -- of course,

22 if I had the correct interpretation. There may have been an error in the

23 interpretation. The next question by my learned friend, the question

24 was: Puljic or Puzic? And to all of us who speak the language, we

25 understand what was meant, because the witness gave the wrong surname and

Page 1506

1 then my learned friend reminded him of the right one. So it's not the

2 same thing. Yes, my objection has been recorded, so let's not waste any

3 more time.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I don't want to take more time on this

6 issue. I think it's a non-issue, frankly. If anything, it was probably

7 my initial mispronunciation of the name that caused the start of the whole

8 process, and I don't think this is a matter that is so central to the

9 case, in any event, that a leading question wouldn't be entirely

10 appropriate, if there was a leading question. This is simply one

11 particular incident he told us about, and we're just identifying this

12 particular individual. So without belabouring it further, Mr. Fourmy, can

13 we continue?

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, it is with pleasure

15 that I will ask you to proceed, at the same time drawing your attention to

16 the need of perhaps spelling names when mentioning names of people or

17 places, so that the transcript can correctly reflect the names. So please

18 proceed.

19 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy, and of course you're right.

20 Q. Witness J, before we continue on, please, can you assist us with

21 this: You've heard this exchange during the last few minutes. If you

22 can, can you provide us the spelling of this man -- the man who was killed

23 that you've told us about, can you give us the spelling of his last name,

24 please.

25 A. Yes. If necessary, I can write it down. Puzic, not Puljic. His

Page 1507

1 surname is Puzic, Enver, and not Puljic.

2 Q. And how is it spelled, please? I don't think you have to write it

3 down, but if you can just -- if you're able to just spell it, in your own

4 language, of course.

5 A. P-u-z-i-c, with a sign which is pronounced "ch."

6 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, do you have any further inquiry on this?

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor. I think

8 that everything is clear. We have the answer of the witness, the

9 objection of the Defence, and the clarification that you have just made.

10 So thank you, and please proceed.


12 Q. Witness J, at this time I'm going to ask, with the usher's

13 assistance, that Exhibits 14.5 and 15.2 be put in front of you, please.

14 If we could start, please, with Exhibit 15.2, and perhaps that can be

15 placed on the ELMO. I'm sorry.

16 Witness, if you can look -- whichever is easiest for you. You can

17 either look on the screen in front of you or you can look over to your

18 right at the photograph itself. It's simply whatever is easiest for you.

19 But looking at Exhibit 15.2, can you please tell the Chamber what location

20 that is or what was at that location in 1993.

21 A. This is where Stela's command was, depending how people called

22 it. Some called it headquarters. Only it looked different at the time.

23 It's been renovated now. I've passed by here several times and I've seen

24 that some renovation work has been done, so it doesn't look the same as it

25 did then.

Page 1508

1 Q. All right. Very well. Now, would you please -- or could the

2 photograph -- or Exhibit P14.5 please be put on the ELMO.

3 Witness J, if you can look at that for a moment, please.

4 MR. SCOTT: Well, all right. I didn't realise we were going to

5 get the marked version, Mr. Fourmy, but if -- unless there's objection, I

6 only have one question about it. If counsel wants to have another

7 version, we can, but in the interests of time, I would simply have him

8 identify it. Perhaps they can -- we have another version. We have a

9 clean version.

10 Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

11 Q. So the record is clear, Witness J, I've had placed before you what

12 is, if you will, a clean version of this Exhibit 14.5, just so there are

13 no other markings on it. Now, what I want you to do, and I'm not asking

14 you to make any markings on this, but I simply want you to point to us,

15 please, by way of either -- yes, the usher is handing you a marker or a

16 pointer. Can you just indicate, based on your -- you said you went to

17 work for Stela's unit about seven times, and you've identified his

18 headquarters building. Can you show us on this photograph the area of

19 responsibility of Stela and his unit, as you understood it?

20 A. It was here. This also was under his control.

21 Q. All right. So let the record show that, if it's correct, you've

22 marked, Witness J -- follow me now, please. You've indicated that Stela's

23 area of responsibility extended down the Bulevar, which I think by now is

24 clear, Mr. Fourmy, I don't think would be disputed at this point in the

25 record. The Bulevar is the --

Page 1509












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1510

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor --

2 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me for interrupting you. I

4 don't know, but perhaps the witness knows the names of the roads and the

5 locations, and maybe you could ask him to tell us. That would avoid any

6 possible discussion.

7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I'd be happy to do that. Again, I'm just

8 trying to move somewhat efficiently here.

9 Q. Let me rephrase my question, Witness J. On the photograph that's

10 in front of you, 14.5, there is, if you will, an exchange, an intersection

11 that's marked on that map, and there is -- if I can describe it as a major

12 street, a large main street crossing from, depending on your orientation,

13 I suppose, from the right side of the photograph, down and across to the

14 left of the photograph. And what's the name of that street?

15 A. It is the Bulevar.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Witness J.

17 Mr. Seric, you have an objection?

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] It is my submission that it is

19 superfluous to describe a photograph that the witness has before him, so I

20 object to that kind of question. If the Prosecutor wishes, I can leave

21 that for the cross-examination, but regardless of what he has shown with

22 the pointer, if the Prosecutor doesn't want that, I will do that in the

23 cross-examination. Why doesn't he simply draw a line, what he has shown

24 to allegedly be the area of responsibility of Vinko Martinovic? And I

25 repeat, the witness himself can describe the photograph.

Page 1511

1 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I asked the witness initially -- the photo

2 was put in front of him. I asked a completely open-ended question without

3 any direction whatsoever, if he would indicate with a pointer the

4 location. He did so, completely uncoached by me, if I can use that

5 phrase. He marked it on his own. At that point, you, Mr. Fourmy, made a

6 suggestion, and a reasonable one, that I describe the streets or give more

7 additional information about the locations that he, on his own, had just

8 indicated. That is what I asked him to do. I don't think there is

9 anything inappropriate about it. I had not proposed to have this witness

10 mark a particular document. I think the record can be done in such a way

11 that that is clear. Frankly, we have had a number of documents marked

12 right now and I don't necessarily want to have a profusion of different

13 marked documents. We can, if we need to. But I think the witness is

14 perfectly capable of making a record of the location that he's indicated,

15 and that's what we are trying to do.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. It's up to the parties to

17 decide whether they can agree on a photograph which the witness would

18 mark. The reason why I thought it would be useful for the witness himself

19 to name the streets and the locations which he had pointed to on the ELMO

20 is that the substance of the work to be done by those who will see these

21 depositions will be by reading. And then if buildings and streets are

22 described by the witness, it enables the reader to comprehend more

23 easily. That is my opinion. I was -- I hoped we would speed things up

24 but apparently we are slowing things down.

25 So, Mr. Prosecutor, perhaps we could ask the witness to describe

Page 1512

1 what he showed with his pointer - it's as simple as that - and then, of

2 course, during your cross-examination, you will be able to do what you

3 consider to be necessary, including marking the photograph, if you wish

4 the witness to do that.

5 Mr. Seric?

6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, you have just clearly

7 described the substance of my objection, because that is precisely what

8 the Defence wants; for the witness himself to describe the streets and his

9 impressions regarding the width, the length and range of those, that it

10 should not be done by the Prosecutor. That was the point of our

11 objection.

12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Seric. I'm sure that

13 the Prosecutor will agree with you and put the appropriate questions to

14 the witness along those lines. Please proceed.

15 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

16 Q. To repeat my outstanding question, the large street that runs to

17 the front along with what -- front of what we are looking at now, the

18 health centre, you said this a moment ago, what is the name of that

19 street?

20 A. It is the Bulevar.

21 Q. And a few moments ago, you indicated, and is it correct, that the

22 area of responsibility on the Bulevar extended to the left, to the

23 intersection which is visible on Exhibit 14.5? Is that correct, sir?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, I'm going to direct your attention to the 17th of September,

Page 1513

1 Witness J, and those photographs can be withdrawn at this time. Can you

2 tell us -- and not all at one time, we will take it in pieces. Tell us

3 what happened on the 17th of September, starting with, of course, the

4 beginning or early part of the day.

5 A. On the 17th of September 1993, early in the morning, about 6.00,

6 6.30, I don't know exactly, at the gymnasium in the Heliodrom, Dinko came

7 to fetch us. There were about 30 of us in the group and we were taken in

8 the direction of the town of Mostar. Four men were left at Zovnica, at a

9 private house. Then we were taken to Stela's headquarters or command.

10 After that, there was quite a large group of soldiers there already, and

11 Stela was walking around, and on one occasion he said that four men should

12 be selected. Jasmin Jazvin, Enes Pajo, Edo Tucakovic and Jasar Gadzo.

13 The four of them went to the basement of that building, they dressed and

14 they came back out.

15 Q. All right. Now, Witness J, forgive me for interrupting you. To

16 follow Mr. Fourmy's suggestion, if you can help us, please, can you spell

17 the last names of those four men you just identified, or the men you just

18 identified?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Please do.

21 A. Let me mention Jazvin first. J-a-z-v-i-n. And his first name,

22 J-a-s-m-i-n.

23 Q. All right. And the next individual, please?

24 A. T-u-c-a-k-o-v-i-c, first name E-d-o.

25 Q. And the third individual, please?

Page 1514

1 A. P-a-j-o, first name E-n-e-s.

2 Q. All right. Thank you, Witness.

3 A. The fourth.

4 Q. Yes?

5 A. If necessary, I can give you name, spell the fourth name.

6 Q. Please.

7 A. G-a-d-z-o, first name J-a-s-a-r.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness J. Now, before the -- before you got to this

9 point -- we can stop there for a moment, where these four men were

10 selected, where -- excuse me, just let me look at your testimony for a

11 second. All right, I'm sorry, you already mentioned -- this is at

12 Stela's, you were taken to Stela's headquarters. Who -- can you identify

13 the particular individual who made the selection of the four people you

14 just named?

15 A. His name was Ernest. He's a dark guy with a black beard.

16 Q. And did this Ernest have a nickname that he was frequently

17 called?

18 A. Yes. We called him Brada, meaning beard.

19 Q. All right. Now, can you tell the -- can you tell the Chamber

20 whether, when all this is happening that you described for us in the last

21 few minutes, was Stela present at that time?

22 A. Yes. He was there behind, near, around the building but not

23 exactly where we were lined up. He was walking around the other side.

24 Q. All right. Now, forgive me for being a little bit out of sequence

25 here, but let me go back and pick up one additional item that we missed.

Page 1515

1 You said that some -- I think you said that some of the prisoners were

2 split off, if you will, to go work in a garage as mechanics on some cars.

3 If you said that, I'm sorry, I didn't -- don't recall hearing it. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes. It was a group of five or six men who were always working

6 for Stela. There was a garage right next to the entrance to the building

7 and they repaired cars and prepared them for painting and that sort of

8 thing.

9 MR. SCOTT: All right. My apology, Mr. Fourmy, if I just didn't

10 remember if that had been covered or not. I take -- I took us on a bit of

11 a detour, perhaps.

12 Q. Let's go back to the selection of the four soldiers. Did one of

13 these four then collapse or faint, if you will, on being selected and put

14 into a uniform?

15 A. Yes. It was Enes Pajo.

16 Q. And what happened after that? What happened?

17 A. When he fainted, there was a lot of commotion, and then Mr. Stela

18 shouted that he should be replaced by someone else, as we were lined up

19 over there in front of the building, and then he chose me, Ernest chose

20 me. And then I put on a camouflage uniform and joined the three remaining

21 men. I was the fourth.

22 Q. And did all four of you then at that point have on a camouflage

23 military uniform?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And were you, the group of you four, were you given anything else

Page 1516

1 around this time?

2 A. Yes. After that, we were given wooden rifles which looked like

3 real ones but they were made out of wood.

4 Q. And what happened next?

5 A. After that, we were told to clean up, to clean the weapons of the

6 soldiers that were there. In the meantime, the others went on some other

7 assignment, the people who stayed behind us, and we stayed on to clean the

8 weapons until the time came for us to leave. So after a short while, we

9 went together with Ernest in a car. We called it a Fico Kombi, a small

10 van with a PAM on it, an anti-aircraft gun on it, and we went to the line

11 down there, the area of responsibility.

12 Q. And do you recall the part of the line or the building where you

13 were taken at that time?

14 A. Yes. I didn't know the area too well, but they called it the

15 emergency, and we went to the basement of that emergency building and

16 Mr. Stela was there in the basement.

17 Q. What street was this emergency centre, as you call it, located

18 on?

19 A. It is -- I don't know the exact name of the street, but it is in

20 the direction when you go from the Rondo towards the Bulevar.

21 Q. All right. Now, you said a moment ago that when you arrived

22 there, somebody else was already there; is that correct?

23 A. I'm sorry, where do you mean?

24 Q. At the what you've described as the emergency centre.

25 A. Yes, yes, yes. Down there, in the basement, Stela was waiting for

Page 1517

1 us where -- and Ernest brought us there, and he took us to Stela's, and

2 there were another two or three soldiers with him, I don't know their

3 names, and Stela told us what our assignment was, what was going to happen

4 that day.

5 Q. All right. Go ahead.

6 A. He told us that there would be an operation that day at 12.00 and

7 that we would be the men who would go in front of them, because they don't

8 know exactly -- they didn't know exactly -- they knew the building but

9 they didn't know the exact positions of the army, and they wanted to see

10 where the shooting was coming from, for them to be able to respond, and we

11 would go in front of the group, the group consisting of about ten men who

12 would be following us. And he told us that the operation would start with

13 shelling at 12.00, it would go on for some 15 minutes, and after that, a

14 tank would come from the direction of the Rondo, which would stop there in

15 front of this emergency building, or whatever they called it, because

16 there was a wall made of sandbags that we had made previously there, and

17 this would be removed, and then the tank would come and would fire three

18 or four shells - and that in fact happened - after which we should follow

19 the tank to the crossroads. It would stop there, and we should go on and

20 run across the road. After that, we should lie down in front of the

21 building which the army held, and then that they would continue the

22 operation.

23 Q. Witness J, let me stop you there, please. Just by point of

24 clarification on a couple of things you've just told us. When you say,

25 and again just now, the positions or the building which the army held,

Page 1518












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1519

1 which army are you referring to in that part of your testimony?

2 A. The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Q. And were you being used then, you and the three other men -- to

4 use the phrase that's been referred to during and since the war, did you

5 understand that you were being used as human shields?

6 A. That's right. Yes. I've already said that he had told us to go

7 because they did not know where Armija's men were exactly, and that we

8 should walk in front of them so that they could simply fire at us and thus

9 they would establish where that fire was coming from, that is, where they

10 were, and proceed with their action. That is quite clear.

11 Q. All right. Now, Witness J, before I ask you - and we're coming to

12 the end of your testimony - before I ask you to just tell us the rest of

13 the story, if you will, what happened after this, going back to the

14 instructions you received, you've told us, from Stela, did he say anything

15 that might happen or would happen if the mission succeeded, or the

16 operation?

17 A. Yes. Yes. Stela told us, when this is over, if we're successful

18 and if all goes all right, that he then guarantees that he will release us

19 within 48 hours, so that we could go home if we wanted to, or away if we

20 wanted to, or join his unit if we wanted to. And then his other soldiers

21 who were there said, "Just be sure, if he promises something, that is how

22 it will be."

23 Q. Now, Witness J, will you just then tell us what happened next up

24 until the end of this event, the end of this time when you and the others

25 were being used in the manner you've described. Just tell us in your own

Page 1520

1 words the rest of the story.

2 A. Yes. From the basement, we went to a garage, and there we were

3 separated from those others. We were not allowed to see those others. I

4 don't know why. And then Ernest came and brought a backpack and gave it

5 to this Sarajevan, to Jasar Gadzo, and two small bags which he gave to

6 Jasmin and Edo, and then he ordered them to fill them with stones. After

7 that, he found a small half-litre bottle for the motor oil and told him to

8 put it in his pocket and said, "This is your Motorola. When you cross

9 over there and do your mission, then call me."

10 Well, a few minutes passed by and then we went to the lower part

11 of that health centre. There was a side entrance to it. And there we

12 awaited for the tank with the rest of Stela's soldiers, those who were to

13 move on first. And at 12.00, the shelling started and lasted for some 15

14 or 20 minutes, and as it stopped, the tank came up from the direction of

15 Rondo.

16 Meanwhile, those others, the inmates, had removed the bags that

17 were on the street so that the tank could pass through, and then it fired

18 three or four shells and set off. And they told us -- that is, they again

19 came to us, I mean, the tank. The tank came back to the entrance where we

20 were, and then we were told to come out and start off to the mission, to

21 the task that we had been assigned. And that's how it was. We ran

22 alongside the tank up to the fountain, and there the tank stopped and we

23 managed to run across by the fountain and across the Bulevar and reach the

24 side where the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was and we went down on the

25 ground. And then the infantry exchange of fire started and shelling of

Page 1521

1 everything. There were all sorts of things there for a while.

2 Q. If I can interrupt you, Witness J. Forgive me. And once you got

3 to the other side of the street, what did you do and what was your

4 situation at that point?

5 A. Well, we went down to the ground then, and as soon as we -- that

6 is, the moment we heard the first rifle shot, we simply laid down, because

7 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not spot us. So that we laid down on

8 the ground the moment the first rifle fired, and then this fire started.

9 However, soldiers who were from Stela's group, they stood behind the

10 fountain, and then so it went on, and we were there throughout the attack.

11 Q. What did you think was going to happen to you at that time?

12 A. Well, what could we think? We were waiting for the -- awaiting

13 death, and I was really looking forward to it and I was hoping for the

14 right death, to be hit in the right place, that is, not to be severely

15 wounded, because I don't think anybody would have come to my rescue there

16 and nobody could come there to get me out. So whoever tried to come to

17 your rescue would be finished, from either side. So all I did was pray

18 for death, that is, to be killed on the spot.

19 But it stopped, and when this gunfire died down, Stela's soldiers

20 withdrew. And Jasmin Jazvin -- we were quite near the entrance to this

21 building held by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he made it to the

22 entrance, and we heard some talk, some voices there. And at some point he

23 simply jumped up and rushed into the building held by the army of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there a soldier met him. But he had already

25 warned him before that that he was a prisoner and threw at him his rifle

Page 1522

1 and told him not to fire at him.

2 At that moment, he cried out to get away, to get down to the

3 cellar of the building. And when I heard that, I also pushed those other

4 two and told them that we also had to get in there, and if we make it, we

5 make it. And that's how it was. With the rest of us, we crossed over and

6 we got away with it. And he asked us, "Are there any more of you?" And

7 we said, "No. Only the four of us." And that's how it was.

8 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Witness J.

9 Mr. Fourmy, we have no further questions. Thank you.


11 I wonder if perhaps -- Mr. Krsnik, Mr. Seric, what do you think?

12 Should we make a break now, a 20-minute break, and then begin your

13 cross-examination? Would you agree with this? Yes? Very well. In that

14 case, we shall resume at 10 minutes to 11.00. The session is adjourned.

15 Witness, please do not move. Wait for the usher to take you out

16 of the courtroom. Stay in your place. Thank you very much. The session

17 is adjourned.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Yes, Witness J,

21 the Defence will now ask you some questions. It will be, yes, Madam

22 Lasan.

23 Cross-examined by Ms. Lasan:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness J.

25 A. Good morning.

Page 1523

1 Q. I'm Visnja Drenski Lasan, lawyer and co-counsel for the accused

2 Mladen Naletilic, and I will ask you only a few questions relative to your

3 testimony today.

4 Tell us: Before your testimony today, you already gave -- made a

5 statement to our colleagues from the OTP?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. According to my information, it was on the 9th of December 1998?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. And you remember what you said in that statement, do you?

10 A. Well, I said what I told about today.

11 Q. And all that you said today and what you stated on that occasion

12 is true?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. Merely for clarification for the today's record, I will ask you a

15 few questions which have to do with the initial part of your today's

16 testimony. When asked by the Prosecutor, that is what you said in your

17 statement, you said that you were taken to the camp at Dretelj?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. You also told us today, and that is what your statement says, that

20 the Dretelj camp was commanded by the HVO military police, and you

21 mentioned the name of the person who was the camp administrator; is that

22 correct?

23 A. It is.

24 Q. And for the transcript, could you please repeat the name of that

25 person.

Page 1524

1 A. Ivica Kraljevic.

2 Q. Could you please spell it out, for the record.

3 A. I-v-i-c-a, last name K-r-a-l-j-e-v-i-c with a diacritic mark.

4 Q. You told us, and that is what your first statement says also, that

5 after that, you were taken to the camp at Heliodrom near Mostar?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. Tell us, do you know what the locality is called?

8 A. It's called Rodoc.

9 Q. You also said today that this camp was also under the command of

10 the military police?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Do you know the name of the camp administrator of the Heliodrom?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. You also said that from the camp at Heliodrom, you were taken to

15 work at different places?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. You also said that various persons came to the camp and then you

18 told us about the procedure which led up to your being taken away?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. You also said something about it in your first statement.

21 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] So that I should like to ask the usher

22 to show the witness the text of his statement of 9th December 1998, page

23 2, the passage marked in blue. And I also have copies in English and

24 Croatian for the Court and for the Prosecutor.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 1525

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the text be put on the ELMO, please?

2 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] For the time being, I only wish to

3 show it to the witness. Perhaps there will be no need to tender it.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Can the text in question be put on the ELMO,

5 please, for the interpreters?

6 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] It is page 2 of the statement. The

7 usher asked me if, in view of the protection of the witness, if this

8 fragment which I want to show, I do not think that it will affect his

9 safety and it has nothing to do with him. I mean, it does not address any

10 of his particulars.

11 THE REGISTRAR: It is a protected -- this document is

12 confidential. It does say his name on the second page, and we cannot show

13 it on the ELMO. We can show him.

14 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] No, no, no. It doesn't have to be

15 put there, only to the witness.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any

17 objections if the statement is not put on the ELMO? Then I believe the

18 witness is protected. Or do you have any other objection, perhaps?

19 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, we have no objection to it not being put

20 on the ELMO. I think that was primarily, if I understood correctly, for

21 the benefit perhaps of the interpreters. But I agree that if the entire

22 document, or at least parts of the document, become shown on the ELMO, it

23 would compromise the witness. I think that -- well, I think the

24 cross-examination can be done in such a way, hopefully using the document,

25 without disclosing the document itself.

Page 1526

1 I have some other concerns. The reason I'm hesitating,

2 Mr. Fourmy, and I apologise, I have some other concerns about the way in

3 which these statements are coming into the record, but it's something we

4 can address more generally. I don't want to take the time now. Thank

5 you.

6 THE REGISTRAR: The number for this document is D1/10.

7 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] May I continue?

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.

9 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. In this paragraph that has been highlighted and shown to you now,

11 it says that you arrived at the Heliodrom, that the military police of the

12 HVO was in charge of that camp. You said that you don't know who the

13 commander was. You said that you were frequently taken to do forced

14 labour in Mostar?

15 A. Almost daily.

16 Q. Could you find the following sentences in that text that has been

17 marked for you: "Whichever battalion needed the labour would --"

18 A. Do you want me to list --

19 Q. No. No, no. Just this sentence I am reading to you now. The

20 previous sentence says, "... the surroundings of Mostar," and then comes

21 the following sentence, beginning with the word, "Whichever battalion..."

22 Can you see that sentence?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. "Whichever battalion needed labour, that battalion would send a

25 truck to the hangar at Heliodrom." Those were battalions of the HVO?

Page 1527

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you clarify for us, please: These HVO battalions that came

3 to the Heliodrom to fetch labour, manpower, they were not stationed at

4 Heliodrom, were they?

5 A. No.

6 Q. They were at some other locations?

7 A. Yes. They were in their respective areas of responsibility.

8 Q. I see. Then comes the sentence: "Then the military police from

9 the Heliodrom would pick us out"; is that right?

10 A. Sometimes it would be the military police, sometimes the people

11 who came to fetch us; the military police and the people who came with

12 trucks.

13 Q. Tell us exactly the procedure of selection amongst you who were in

14 the camp.

15 A. The door would be open. Either the military police would come in

16 or somebody who came from his own area of responsibility, and he would

17 select the number of people he needed. There were quite a number of us

18 there, so he would select people at will.

19 Q. In view of all that you said, can we conclude that you couldn't be

20 taken to do forced labour unless the military police at the Heliodrom knew

21 about it and approved it?

22 A. Yes. They would have to open the door, regardless of who came,

23 because they guarded us, the military police. Sometimes they would select

24 us and sometimes these soldiers who came from their areas of

25 responsibility would select us, in the presence of the military police.

Page 1528

1 Q. So the selection of individuals, that is, whether it would be

2 prisoner A or prisoner B or prisoner C, that this selection would

3 sometimes be done by the person who came to fetch you and sometimes by the

4 military police, but the military police was always there?

5 A. Yes. They guarded us. They had to open the hangar, let them in,

6 and they had to be aware of what was happening.

7 Q. So can you confirm what I have just said, for the record, as we

8 have been told that we are overlapping.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you wait for me to finish the question before you give your

11 answer, because of the interpretation, so as not to have any overlapping.

12 You said today that as a member of the HVO, you were arrested on

13 the 1st of July, 1993.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell me where you were arrested?

16 A. In my village, my native village.

17 Q. Just a moment. I am not interested in the name, but the precise

18 location: the street, the house, at a front line, in the woods?

19 A. In front of my house.

20 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm going to object to this. Maybe I

21 misunderstood the question, but there is no reason for him to give an

22 address or a house. He stated in private session where he's from, his

23 village, and this is not necessary. It's only identifying the witness and

24 it's simply irrelevant for any proper cross-examination.

25 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] I have to respond to Mr. Scott.

Page 1529

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Lasan, please.

2 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] My question did not require an

3 address. I cautioned the witness that I was not interested in names. All

4 I was interested in was the actual location. Was it in a house, in front

5 of the house, on the road, in the woods? This can in no way compromise

6 the witness's protection, I think.

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Lasan. Perhaps I would

8 suggest we go into private session for a few minutes, and that would give

9 the witness greater freedom to answer your question. Because if the

10 answer is that he was arrested in the street, there's a risk of embarking

11 upon something that could permit identification. But I think, in view of

12 the area, the circumstances, it is quite easy to identify people. So if

13 you agree, we could go into private session.

14 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Yes, if you think that would be a

15 better idea, but in my opinion it is not necessary. But out of caution,

16 maybe we can go into private session.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Lasan. Let's go into

18 private session.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1530












12 page 1530 redacted, private session.














Page 1531












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1532












12 page 1532 redacted, private session.














Page 1533

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Seric:

25 Q. [Interpretation] I'm attorney Branko Seric, representing Vinko

Page 1534

1 Martinovic. Witness J, do you remember when you arrived at the Heliodrom?

2 A. You mean from Dretelj?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. The 21st of July 1993, in the evening. I don't know exactly what

5 time it was.

6 Q. In your examination-in-chief by the Prosecutor, virtually in the

7 same response, you said that you went to Stela's six or seven times but

8 you also said that for the last 15 days, you were taken there every day.

9 A. Yes. I was taken there, but not just I but some others with me.

10 We went to work in the automotive association for Nikica Kresic.

11 Q. Could you explain, then, where you were taken?

12 A. To the automotive, motoring association. I didn't know Mostar

13 very well before. I became acquainted with it while I was in the camp

14 there.

15 Q. Why are you linking that with Vinko Martinovic?

16 A. What do you mean linking? Because Dinko [LiveNote originally read

17 in error "Vinko"] came to the Heliodrom, and he took us as a group, and

18 when we reached Stela's, then this one would take us over for the motoring

19 association, the four of us, and the others would stay for Stela, and that

20 repeated itself for 15 or 20 days at the end.

21 Q. Prior to the 17th of July --

22 MR. SCOTT: I only intervene, I think, for your benefit.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, September.

24 MR. SCOTT: And if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected, but on

25 line 20, I believe he said because Vinko came to the Heliodrom. I would

Page 1535

1 understand that the witness said Dinko. That may be important to you but

2 I leave it to you.

3 THE WITNESS: Dinko, Dinko, I'm sorry, not Vinko.

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Thank you. Precisely so. But let me go on. Before the 17th of

6 September, when you were placed under the authority of Vinko Martinovic's

7 unit, were you taken to the separation line at Bulevar?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How many times?

10 A. I said already, six or seven times I worked for Stela at the

11 separation line.

12 Q. Is this date the 17th of September 1993 important for you in any

13 particular way?

14 A. Something in particular? Well, what happened was what I have just

15 told you about.

16 Q. What were you wearing that day?

17 A. I had some shoes on, shoes I found when I went to do labour.

18 Q. Where did you find them?

19 A. In a house, in an abandoned house.

20 Q. Where is that abandoned house?

21 A. I'm afraid I just couldn't tell you now. I couldn't explain,

22 because I worked almost every day. And where exactly I found them, I'm

23 unable to tell you.

24 Q. In Mostar?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 1536

1 Q. Could you tell us when you were taken to work for the first time

2 for Vinko Martinovic's unit?

3 A. I'm afraid I couldn't tell you exactly when it was that I was

4 taken for the first time.

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

6 witness, as we didn't have other technical possibilities, show the witness

7 a copy of photograph Exhibit 14.5. The original was used this morning, so

8 could I have the original, please, which is already in the file, which was

9 shown to the witness this morning without any markings, 14.5?

10 Mr. Usher, could you give copies to the Prosecution, the Court and

11 the Registrar? A copy, because I would like to use the copy for marking

12 purposes, so then it will be a Defence exhibit. After the witness has

13 marked it, we would like to tender it as a Defence exhibit, if my learned

14 friends have no objection, though the copy is black and white, but I think

15 that shouldn't cause any difficulty.

16 MR. SCOTT: No objection, Mr. Fourmy.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that is quite an

18 acceptable way to proceed, Mr. Seric.

19 Madam Registrar, perhaps you could give us a number for the

20 exhibit.

21 THE REGISTRAR: The new exhibit that will be marked for the

22 Defence will be D2/3. But just to clarify for the record, they are using

23 OTP Exhibit P14.5.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. Witness, would you be kind enough to use the marker and to draw

Page 1537

1 what you pointed to the Prosecutor this morning, that is, the area of

2 responsibility of Vinko Martinovic's unit.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. You haven't finished the part to the back of the photograph held

5 by this unit, or perhaps you don't know. Do you understand what I mean, I

6 hope?

7 A. Yes, I do understand what you're saying. I think the end of this

8 building here.

9 Q. Just draw a line horizontally where you think this should be.

10 A. The end of this building.

11 Q. Just draw a line, please.

12 A. This building here.

13 Q. And to the right. No, that's to the left. To the right, you have

14 a line you've already drawn. Further up, at the end of the photograph,

15 where does that line end?

16 A. This building here.

17 Q. Well, just draw a line as you think best.

18 A. I have, as far as I know.

19 Q. No, you have not finished it. You haven't finished the line. To

20 the right, upper right. There, there, where is the end, there?

21 A. This building here. That is the end of the building.

22 Q. Just draw a line to the left.

23 A. This is the roof. So to avoid any confusion, I'm drawing the line

24 like this, so as not to go deeper inside.

25 Q. Please draw a line across the building. We see that this is an

Page 1538

1 aerial photograph, so please draw a line.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I'm sorry. If I can --

3 Witness, I'm going to interrupt you. Sorry, but if I don't --

4 Sorry, Mr. Fourmy, but if I don't interrupt, then it may be too

5 late, and I apologise for any discourtesy to anyone in the courtroom.

6 Mr. Fourmy, I'm afraid that I have now the same objection that apparently

7 I was the victim of, if I may say that, in the direct examination. I

8 understand completely that Mr. Seric wants certain marks to be put on the

9 map. I understand that. I have no objection to that. But I think now

10 we've reached the point where it's being too directive. Mr. Seric is

11 giving too much direction as to the lines that he wants. The witness has

12 already drawn the lines that I think he can draw, and I think once he's

13 completed that, he should not be coached or encouraged to draw additional

14 lines. I think he's given his full answer. Thank you.

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric.

16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] There's no need for any

17 interruption - I agree with my learned friend - or objection.

18 Q. So as far as you are concerned, have you finished marking the

19 area?

20 A. That is as far as his area of responsibility is concerned that I

21 went to, and as far as I know. That is it.

22 Q. Could you tell us what is behind this building on the right-hand

23 side, as the last one, so that you couldn't mark the line because of the

24 roof?

25 A. This building, this last building up there? This one?

Page 1539

1 Q. Yes. What's behind that building?

2 A. I don't know what it was. There were some rooms there under a

3 flat roof and there were rifles positioned there.

4 Q. Underneath that building, the one on the right-hand side that you

5 said had a flat roof, did that mark the end of the area of responsibility

6 of the unit led by Vinko Martinovic?

7 A. I don't know. I just know I came there. Whether that was the

8 end, I don't know. I came here, and over here too, and here too.

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Mr. Fourmy, could we keep this photograph in front of the witness

11 for a while? Because we will need it again during the cross-examination.

12 Q. You said a while ago that even before the 17th of September, you

13 came to work near the separation line.

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Can you please mark that place on the photograph.

16 A. Well, it's this. This was called the 3rd Primary School.

17 Somewhere in this direction there.

18 Q. No, no, no. I'm asking in this area that you marked as manned by

19 Vinko Martinovic's unit along the line of separation.

20 A. Well, I went from there -- no, sorry. Can you clarify the

21 question?

22 Q. A while ago you marked -- look at the photograph. You marked the

23 area manned on the separation line by the Vinko Martinovic unit.

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. And where did you work within that area?

Page 1540

1 A. Oh, you mean within that area.

2 Q. Yes, I do.

3 A. Well, then inside here in this building, then here, in this one

4 here.

5 Q. Did you work inside those buildings?

6 A. Yes. I've just told you.

7 Q. Did you work in front of those buildings?

8 A. In front of the buildings, not here. Only inside, and the yards.

9 Q. And on those occasions when you worked there, did you ever witness

10 a conflict, an exchange of fire, between the HVO and the BH army?

11 A. Well, there would be some intermittent fire, a bullet here and

12 there; not much.

13 Q. Were you personally ever at risk on those occasions when there was

14 fire?

15 A. Well, we had to seek shelter the moment the fire starts, because

16 what we were doing there was reinforcing the rifle positions and suchlike

17 so that as soon as a rifle would open fire, we had to get away.

18 Q. Could you see where that fire came from?

19 A. No, we couldn't see that, and we didn't watch, nothing. There

20 were only those slots for the rifles. You couldn't really have much

21 visibility, and you only had to work. We couldn't look through those

22 slots.

23 Q. Will you have a look at this photograph once again and tell us:

24 Where were the units of the BH army?

25 A. Here, along this building.

Page 1541

1 Q. Could you mark it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Next to the line that you've just drawn, can you somehow

4 indicate -- to indicate that those were the ABiH positions, put "1."

5 A. You want me to write "1"?

6 Q. That's right.

7 A. Where? On which side?

8 Q. Well -- no, here it's too dark, so you can't see it. Here.

9 A. Like that?

10 Q. Yes. Can you -- now, and at the end of the right-hand line that

11 you marked, will you please put also number "1."

12 A. Here, you mean?

13 Q. Yes. Now, put number "2" to indicate the areas that you worked,

14 or rather, the buildings. You were shown them a moment ago, so will you

15 please put "2."

16 A. You mean when I worked for Stela?

17 Q. That's right.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. And this one here too.

21 Q. Can you show me - you don't have to write anything - where was the

22 health centre?

23 A. It's here, that building over there. That's what they told us:

24 the health centre. And this one they called emergency. Whether that was

25 also a part of the health centre, I don't know, but that's how they

Page 1542

1 referred to it when I was there.

2 Q. From this area, how far is -- that is, if you can tell us, how far

3 was the building that you called Vinko Martinovic's headquarters?

4 A. Next to the line, you mean? Well, I'm not sure. I never thought

5 about it. But it could be about a kilometre away. I can't really say,

6 but that's about it.

7 Q. Can you exactly reconstruct your movements on that day, the 17th

8 of September, 1993, when you left Heliodrom, from that moment up to the

9 moment when you put on the uniforms in Vinko Martinovic's headquarters?

10 A. Why, yes. Dinko came to fetch us that morning, called us out. We

11 did. We mounted the truck. Then we took the road across Zovnica, because

12 there were four men working on a private house. They had been working

13 there from before. Because one knew that the four of them had to go

14 there, so we went first to Zovnica, left them there, and the rest of us

15 were then taken to the headquarters.

16 Q. And then what happened?

17 A. After we arrived there?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. We were lined up straight away, and then Mr. Vinko, he said to

20 that Ernest to assign four men. He ordered him to take four men, and he

21 made his pick, took them to the basement, and told them to put on

22 many-coloured uniforms that had already been brought there by I think

23 somebody called Gvaro. He had one arm crippled - that is, he only had a

24 thumb - and he brought them as we stood by the wall. And then those

25 uniforms were put on and came out, and then he gave them those wooden

Page 1543

1 rifles. And when he gave them the wooden rifles, Enes Pajo passed out,

2 fainted, and Stela then shouted, "Well, undress him. Why do I need him?"

3 and then said, "Well, give me another one." And that's how it was.

4 Ernest then assigned me, made me put on his uniform, and gave me a wooden

5 rifle.

6 Q. Where did you put on that rifle?

7 A. In front of the building.

8 Q. Were there any patches on those uniforms?

9 A. No, nothing special. It was just a camouflage uniform, such as

10 was worn by HVO troops.

11 Q. Did you have any special armbands?

12 A. No, there was nothing special.

13 Q. And what did those wooden rifles look like?

14 A. They looked like those automatic rifles except that they had

15 wooden butts. That is, dark brown painted over the previous night, and

16 they were painted by Mr. Semir Edic, called Daka, from Stolac. He was the

17 one who painted them with his own hands.

18 Q. How do you know that?

19 A. Because that's where I worked the day before, and when I returned

20 from the automobile club, he was in the process of painting them.

21 Q. Was it obvious that the rifles were wooden?

22 A. Well, you know what is a wooden rifle and what is a real rifle. I

23 do think there is a difference. I mean, I personally had one.

24 Q. You mean it was obvious that those were fake rifles?

25 A. But of course they were fake rifles.

Page 1544

1 Q. I didn't understand you.

2 A. I say, of course they were fake rifles, seeing that they were

3 wooden. I personally carried one.

4 Q. How did you do that? In what way?

5 A. Well, in my hands, like I would a real rifle.

6 Q. But you could have it on your shoulder.

7 A. No, no, no.

8 Q. Do you know Halid Jazvin?

9 A. Halid Jazvin. I do. I mean, like that.

10 Q. Did you see him that day?

11 A. Well, I didn't really know him all that well at that time. I came

12 to know him much better when we crossed over here.

13 Q. Did you see him that day?

14 A. Well, I told you already that at that time I didn't really know

15 him all that well and that I came to know him better when we crossed over

16 to the side under the control of the BH army.

17 Q. I'm asking you if you remember seeing him that day.

18 A. Oh, that? No, I don't. All I remember is some individuals. I

19 can give you their names, if need be.

20 Q. No, no, it's not necessary, thank you. And where did you move

21 before you reached the building of what you call -- told us was

22 emergency?

23 A. Where we went from the headquarters towards the Rondo, and then

24 from Rondo in the direction of the emergency.

25 Q. Could you walk unobstructed?

Page 1545

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did anyone lead you?

3 A. Ernest led -- drove us in a yellow van which was half truck, half

4 van, and it had a POM mounted on it, an anti-aircraft machine-gun.

5 Q. Are you sure it was a van? Could it be a jeep?

6 A. No, no, no. It wasn't a jeep. What we call it is Fico van,

7 Zastava van.

8 Q. Thank you. And in that part of the street where the building of

9 the emergency is, was there a cord across the street with sandbags over

10 it?

11 A. There was a wall which we made of sandbags. That is, we filled

12 bags with earth and then built that wall across the road.

13 Q. Could you point at its location on the -- on the photograph?

14 A. Unfortunately, I can't. Just a moment. Here, from this building,

15 from that corner there to the corner of this building over there.

16 Q. Will you please mark that. If, that is, we shall be able to see

17 that.

18 A. Like this, in this direction, this is the top of this building,

19 and this is the foot of the building so that you can see that.

20 Q. And can you put "3" next to it?

21 A. I can, yes. I'll put it here so that you can see it.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, can you tell us what is it that you marked with

23 number 3 so that we have your statement in the record.

24 A. That is a wall across the road made of bags, and on it there were

25 two or three rifle nests.

Page 1546

1 Q. You mentioned that Vinko Martinovic was in the basement of the

2 emergency?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Will you please describe the cellar.

5 A. Well, cellar, like is -- a cellar is a cellar. You go down the

6 steps and there is a room there, right below. As soon as we had come down

7 those stairs, he met us there and told us what our task would be, what we

8 were to do and how to do it.

9 Q. Was there any furniture there?

10 A. Well, there were some hospital affairs, I mean things that usually

11 belong to a hospital, some cupboards or wardrobes or some hospital beds or

12 something.

13 Q. Can we then agree that this was the hospital inventory there?

14 A. Well, I can't say what was there. It had evidently been put in

15 there. But what had been there before, because I didn't know the building

16 before, of course you can bring in anything anywhere. I know what I saw

17 there at that time.

18 Q. Did it look to you like a military command?

19 A. What?

20 Q. I mean that basement.

21 A. No. It is simply that the line was there and simply happened to

22 be there, and that's what it was called simply. But during the war, it

23 did not house a military hospital or any command.

24 Q. And what did Vinko Martinovic tell you exactly? Did he make any

25 promises? Did he promise that he'd help you go abroad?

Page 1547

1 A. First he asked us who we were, where we came from, and then he

2 told us what would our duty be. And I've already told you about that. If

3 need be, I'll repeat it all, right to the end. And after that, he said,

4 "And if all this is done, then I guarantee that you will be allowed to go

5 within 48 hours, to go home, abroad, or if you feel like it, join my

6 unit." And this was then confirmed by his soldiers, that he was in a

7 position to keep his promise.

8 Q. And what did you answer?

9 A. Well, we didn't have any answer. How -- what all we had in our

10 heads was death, in view of the task given us.

11 Q. Will you please explain it to us? Why is it that death was in

12 your heads? Did Vinko Martinovic threaten you with death?

13 A. No, he didn't threaten us, but when he was telling us what our

14 task would be, there is nothing else you can expect but head straight for

15 your death, because we were about to be used as human shields. Since they

16 didn't know where exactly the soldiers of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

17 were, they wanted them to start firing at us so that they could see where

18 that fire came from and so that their soldiers could respond.

19 Q. Did this mean that you were a human shield and markers?

20 A. Well, that's what a human shield is.

21 Q. Was anybody hiding behind your bodies?

22 A. Hiding? There was a group of soldiers behind us.

23 Q. How many of them? Wait a moment because of the transcript. How

24 far behind you was this group of soldiers?

25 A. Not more than a few metres, not much of a distance.

Page 1548

1 Q. But how many?

2 A. Well, perhaps five metres, not more than that.

3 Q. And were those soldiers equally exposed to danger as the four of

4 you?

5 A. They were coming after us. They were behind us.

6 Q. Now, well, right. Let's go back to the photograph. And show us,

7 please, on the photograph which was the direction that you took.

8 A. Just a moment. This was an access path. Then from here, because

9 a tank was coming here, and we waited for the tank until it fetched up

10 there, and then we took this road, and they stayed behind. And we walked

11 here and here. Then went around this fountain, across the Bulevar, came

12 to this side here near the pavement, on this side, which was manned by the

13 Bosnia -- BH army, and that is where we took to the ground.

14 Q. Now, let's please stop. Will you now mark, but with a dotted

15 line, the route which you followed?

16 A. Yes, yes, I can do that.

17 Q. With dotted line or just plain dots.

18 A. Now, this is black and white and I'm not sure whether one can see

19 that.

20 Q. Will you please speak up when you're saying this because --

21 A. I'm saying that this is all black and white and this is black, and

22 there is a fountain here. I'm not sure one can see that. This is how we

23 walked. And now, whether it's somewhere here, I think it is to this side,

24 which the Armija held, near the pavement, somewhere here.

25 Q. And now, will you put number 4 next to this route.

Page 1549

1 A. Can I do it here?

2 Q. Yes. Now, let us go back to your -- to that situation when you

3 were, as you put it, a human shield. You have some military experience;

4 we agree on that, don't we?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you explain how is it that the four of you represented a human

7 shield for ten or so soldiers moving five metres behind you?

8 A. Fine. We walk in front of them and because we are walking in a

9 line, one behind the other, and of course they will fire at the one who is

10 in front. If you are moving in a column, then, don't you think so?

11 Q. I don't know. I wasn't --

12 A. Well, I'm explaining it to you as I see it.

13 Q. No, no, no. I'm not waving at you. Don't get offended.

14 A. No, no, no. I'm not getting offended. I'm just telling you this.

15 Q. And in a way you've already answered my next question, but I

16 nevertheless want to make it quite clear. You were moving in a goose

17 line, one by one?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Can you now tell us exactly in which order did the four of you

20 move?

21 A. Well, what was the exact file, I can't really tell you.

22 Q. You don't know?

23 A. No, I don't.

24 Q. Were you the first one?

25 A. No.

Page 1550












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1551

1 Q. Were you perhaps the last one in that file?

2 A. Well, I wouldn't really know. I mean, where was who at that

3 particular moment.

4 Q. But behind the last one of the four of you comes the column of HVO

5 soldiers; is that right?

6 A. It is.

7 Q. And was there -- between the first soldier in that column and the

8 last one in your file, was there -- were there five metres?

9 A. The first one, no, just a moment.

10 Q. I didn't get really your answer.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel is addressing the other counsel and

12 says, "I didn't hear it quite well."

13 A. Excuse me?

14 Q. I didn't hear it quite well.

15 A. Could you please clarify the question? Because I didn't figure it

16 out.

17 Q. I didn't really hear the witness and I wasn't following the

18 transcript. I do not know what the transcript says. Does it say that

19 between the last soldier and the four who, as the witness says, were the

20 human soldiers, that is the last one in the human shield and the first

21 soldier in the HVO file, was the distance between them five metres?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Sorry, I also have the headset on over my ears. So will you

24 please be precise. We are wasting time if I have to repeat my questions.

25 A. Well, yes, but we must make it clear.

Page 1552

1 Q. As you're moving in that file, as you were moving in that file,

2 was there any firing then? Did anyone fire at that time?

3 A. No. There was no fire until before we crossed. Or rather, we had

4 already run across, and we were already, for the most part, on the side

5 with the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they were still behind the

6 fountain. And as soon as the first bullet was fired, we simply went down

7 to the ground and ...

8 Q. Can you explain, then, whether you were at all a human shield when

9 there was no shooting?

10 A. I can say that I was a human shield, of course I was, because

11 there were shelling before that. All this happened, then came a tank.

12 All this was preplanned, and it was normal to expect the shooting would

13 start. We just ran across. They didn't see us. They saw someone.

14 Q. Are you saying that you were faster than the bullet?

15 A. I was not faster than the bullet. Because as soon as the first

16 shot was fired, we threw ourselves on to the ground.

17 Q. On that occasion, did you reveal the positions of the BH army?

18 A. As we lay on the ground?

19 Q. As you were moving.

20 A. How could I discover it when there was no shooting or anything?

21 Q. Did you personally protect anyone with your body from the fire,

22 from the bullets?

23 A. I did not, because we were all lying on the ground.

24 Q. But you just said that you were not lying on the ground all the

25 time, that you were moving. I'm asking you --

Page 1553

1 A. I was saying that I was moving until the first shot was fired. As

2 soon as the first shot was fired, we threw ourselves on the ground. At

3 that moment, I understood that you were asking me whether we were lying

4 down when this went on. Was that your question? And did I protect anyone

5 as I lay down? That is how I understood your question. And I answered

6 that question.

7 Q. So you continue to allege that you were in a human shield, though

8 that human shield, as you -- the term you use, did not fulfil its purpose

9 as there was no shooting?

10 A. What do you mean there was no shooting? We were exposed to

11 crossfire throughout the attack. Of course it was a human shield.

12 Q. We are now talking about the moment when you were heading towards

13 the separation line and as you were crossing that separation line.

14 A. You're asking me whether I was as a human shield?

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric, I think that the witness

16 has answered according to his perception and understanding of the facts.

17 If you don't agree with that, everyone will understand that, but these are

18 conclusions and not questions. So please be kind enough to put questions

19 to the witness and that will make us move on.

20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] You are quite right, Mr. Fourmy.

21 Thank you.

22 Q. To go back to the tank -- I'm trying to formulate the question so

23 that I cannot be said to be using conclusions. Who was the first who

24 reached the wall of sandbags, you or the tanks?

25 A. We were brought there from the headquarters.

Page 1554

1 Q. Did you see how the tank reached the sandbag wall?

2 A. You mean how it got there? It came from the direction of the

3 Rondo and we had already been transferred from the emergency basement to

4 this side entrance to the building and we were waiting with this group,

5 and when we saw it coming from the direction of the Rondo.

6 Q. Let me repeat my question. Did you see the way in which the tank

7 reached up to the sandbag wall?

8 A. I don't understand what you mean. I'm telling you that it came

9 from the direction of the Rondo to the sandbags.

10 Q. Does that mean that the tank did not pass through the sandbags?

11 A. When it got there, to the sandbags, they had already been removed

12 when it arrived. This was done by the others. They -- the other manpower

13 who were there, they had removed the sandbags. And then he fired three or

14 four shells from that position, and then it moved on, and our task was,

15 when it reached us, that we should accompany it to the crossroads.

16 Q. Let's go slowly because, after all, this is a military operation

17 and we need to analyse it in detail, and thereby elucidate your personal

18 role and the role of the prisoners in that military operation. As I was

19 saying, please look at the photograph. You have marked on the photograph

20 the wall made out of sandbags?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At any point in time, were the four of you going alongside that

23 tank?

24 A. While it was standing up there?

25 Q. At any time.

Page 1555

1 A. We went alongside it after it had fired three or four shells, when

2 the artillery -- the shelling had stopped, this went on for about 15 or 20

3 minutes, I don't know exactly. Then the tank --

4 Q. Wait a moment, please. This is a cross-examination, not the

5 direct examination. So I'm asking you once again: Where was the tank

6 when it fired the first few shells? Was it next to -- had it reached the

7 sandbags or had it passed the sandbag wall?

8 A. It had reached the sandbags here.

9 Q. And?

10 A. And it fired the shells from there.

11 Q. Where were you then?

12 A. In this building, at the side entrance.

13 Q. What happened then, according to what you saw?

14 A. After that, the tank came down the road, as we were told it would,

15 it reached us, and then we came out.

16 Q. Show us now where the tank was when you came out to this clearing,

17 this crossroads.

18 A. Here, you mean? When we went alongside it, you mean?

19 Q. Was it going with you all the time?

20 A. It came here, and we were waiting here for it to come. As soon as

21 it arrived, we started running out. It went down this way and reached

22 this spot, and we ran across this way. As soon as the first bullet was

23 fired, we threw ourselves on the ground, and that is how it went.

24 Q. For the record, will you please tell us: What was the route the

25 tank took?

Page 1556

1 A. It took this route up to this crossroads, the intersection with

2 the Bulevar. Here. It didn't go out onto the intersection itself. There

3 was a stop sign there. So it went as far as this point.

4 Q. So when we reconstruct the route the tank took, and your column,

5 did you part from the tank when you took the path alongside the emergency

6 building, to the left?

7 A. That is what we were told to do.

8 Q. Let me repeat the question.

9 A. We had to run. We had to cross this area.

10 Q. The time you spent moving alongside the tank, were you protected

11 by this white building which you call the health centre?

12 A. From this side, until we reached this corner, we were protected,

13 but we were not protected from any fire that might come from this side,

14 because the front went on. The line went on down there.

15 Q. Precisely that is why I'm asking you: Did the tank accompany you

16 to protect you or were you moving to protect someone?

17 A. We weren't protecting anyone. Actually, we were protecting these

18 soldiers who were coming behind us. We couldn't protect the tank. It was

19 protecting us. It was supporting us, in a sense, yes.

20 Q. Is it logical, on the basis of your own knowledge of the rules of

21 war, for the infantry to protect tanks, or is it the other way around?

22 A. It depends on the circumstances. Though I'm not a military

23 strategist and I don't wish to go into that much, but I think one protects

24 the other. It depends.

25 Q. When you reached the cellar, the basement of the emergency

Page 1557

1 building, did Brada come with you?

2 A. Yes, we came with him. He brought us there.

3 Q. Did he tell Vinko Martinovic that you had volunteered?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did he say anything at all?

6 A. He just handed us over to Vinko.

7 Q. You mentioned in your examination-in-chief by the Prosecution that

8 he used a term "extremists" to describe you.

9 A. Extremists, yes.

10 Q. Do you know what he had in mind?

11 A. Well, you can make your own conclusions as to what the word

12 "extremists" means. It's not a nice word? Is it a nice word or an ugly

13 word?

14 Q. Those wooden rifles, did they have any belts, straps?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All four of them?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How were the barrels made?

19 A. In the same shape as normal rifles.

20 Q. Were there any small wooden planks and shaped in the form of a

21 real rifle?

22 A. Yes, modelled on a real Kalashnikov.

23 Q. So an artist must have produced it?

24 A. I don't know who made it.

25 Q. Did the four of you previously come to an agreement to flee to the

Page 1558

1 other side?

2 A. There was no discussion. We were just -- we kept quiet, waiting

3 for what the future would bring.

4 Q. As you were moving and crossing the separation line, that is, the

5 Bulevar, did you see anyone getting killed in the operation?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you see anyone getting wounded?

8 A. This man with me, Tucakovic, he had some small shrapnel on his

9 back. I also had a small shrapnel on my shoulder blade and I had a cut on

10 my head, and they never found a shrapnel.

11 Q. Could you tell us exactly when the wounding occurred?

12 A. While this exchange of fire was going on.

13 Q. Where were you then? Let's go back to the photograph. Where

14 exactly were you when you were wounded?

15 A. Here, the place where I had marked, when we threw ourselves on the

16 ground. And we didn't move throughout, throughout the attack, the

17 exchange of fire, in fact.

18 Q. Were you wounded while you were moving or while you were lying

19 down?

20 A. While I was lying down.

21 Q. Do you know whether any prisoner volunteered to participate in the

22 HVO operation on that day?

23 A. No. No.

24 Q. Did you have those wooden rifles on you all the time as you were

25 moving, lying down, and running, and crossing the Bulevar?

Page 1559

1 A. Yes. I carried it across myself.

2 Q. And what happened to it afterwards?

3 A. I gave it to a little boy of 4 or 5. I gave it to him as a toy.

4 Q. Did the rifle look like a toy?

5 A. Our children make rifles of that kind as toys.

6 Q. Just a couple of questions more for you and then we'll be

7 through. In the course of your deposition today, you said that on a

8 number of occasions you came to work, and you showed us the various

9 locations, and that there was shooting. You even showed us where the unit

10 or the soldiers of the BH army were located.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Why was it necessary, if you as a prisoner knew that, why was it

13 necessary for the HVO soldiers to find out?

14 A. I don't understand your question. Could you repeat it, please.

15 Q. I'll be glad to. You stated that you personally were aware where

16 these soldiers of the BH army were along the separation line. How is it

17 possible, then, that the HVO soldiers didn't know that, and they needed to

18 use you to reveal their positions?

19 A. Everyone knew roughly which building they were in, but they didn't

20 know exactly the position, and that is why they used us.

21 Q. Could you explain in greater detail what you mean?

22 A. You mean the exact position of the bunker or the rifles? Because

23 a building is big, and you have to be able to assess exactly where the

24 rifle is.

25 Q. Is that important for a tank driver?

Page 1560

1 A. In this case, it was.

2 Q. Are you aware of the calibre of the cannon that a tank has and the

3 destructive power of a shell fired by a tank?

4 A. I think they were 55-calibre tanks, the projectiles that they

5 fired. That's how we referred to them.

6 Q. What is the destructive power of such a projectile?

7 A. I don't know that.

8 Q. Can that projectile destroy three or four windows at the same

9 time?

10 A. It can.

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Fourmy, microphone, please. I'm sorry. We

13 didn't hear that.

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric, the witness is not a

15 military expert. He is here to depose about what he knows, information at

16 his disposal. So if you want to have an expert to come here to explain

17 the destructive power of a tank, whether it can destroy one or several

18 windows, what is the impact of such a tank on the members of the BH army

19 who may have been in the building, very well, but not today. This

20 cross-examination has been going on for an hour and a half, whereas

21 examination-in-chief took one hour, one minute. So I must remind you that

22 that was not the agreement we reached; that the two should correspond.

23 I see that I'm speaking too fast, and I apologise to the

24 interpreters.

25 I haven't finished. I understand that this may be difficult,

Page 1561

1 Mr. Seric, and I see that you're doing everything you can to make your

2 questions as simple and as precise as possible, but I have the impression

3 that we haven't learnt much. I really would like us to complete the

4 deposition of this witness this morning, and we have been going on for an

5 hour and a half, so it will be rather difficult for us to complete him

6 before the break.

7 Mr. Seric, please continue.

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I'm almost done, and you're quite

9 right, but as the witness was testifying about something very important

10 that my client is being charged with -- he was telling us about his

11 subjective feeling and not about the actual fact. So if he was used for

12 any purpose, he may have been used as a marker - and I'm now using

13 military terminology, not the terminology of the witness - and he himself

14 tells us that he felt as if he was a human shield. That is why I asked

15 him on what those feelings are based. But be that as it may, let's go on.

16 I think Madam Registrar has already given a number to this Defence

17 exhibit with the markings of the witness, so we would like to tender that

18 into evidence as a Defence Exhibit.

19 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Could you -- yes, D2/3. Is that

20 right, Mr. Seric?

21 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes. May I just confer briefly with

22 my client, just for a second?

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I will allow it, exceptionally. You

24 know that is not the custom, but please do.

25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 1562

1 [Defence counsel confers with accused]

2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. Thank

3 you. That ends my cross-examination.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Seric.

5 Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any additional questions for this

6 witness?

7 MR. SCOTT: A very few, Mr. Fourmy. I'm confident that we can

8 conclude before the break.

9 If the witness -- I don't know if the witness still has -- if I

10 can request, please, the colour copy of Exhibit 14.5. If that could just

11 be put on the ELMO please. It's not going to be a detailed examination.

12 Mr. Fourmy, I'd like to think this won't be disputed, and I hope

13 it won't be, but just so the record is perfectly clear, let me put this

14 question to the witness.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

16 Q. Witness, this photograph, I take it you can see that the building

17 that you referred to as the emergency, or the middle, the most prominent

18 building in the middle of the photograph, roughly to the right of the

19 fountain area. You can see that building, can you not? Do you see that,

20 sir? Just yes or no.

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Now, there are other buildings, including that building, other

23 buildings around it, just in the general photograph. Do you see a number

24 of buildings that appear to be freshly painted, quite bright colours:

25 bright pink, bright white? Do you see those?

Page 1563

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Just so the record is clear, sir, was that the condition of all

3 these buildings in the summer of 1993, or were in fact many of these

4 buildings much more damaged than what they appear in this photo?

5 A. This part here was damaged. Now it has all been renovated. It

6 was renovated now.

7 Q. Very well. That's the only point on that item that I just wanted

8 to be clear.

9 Now, you say that these rifles, these wooden rifles, were -- I

10 think the word counsel used was "obvious," it was obvious that they were

11 fake rifles. Now, let's be clear about this. Was it obvious to you, as a

12 trained soldier, when you held it in your own hands, that it was not in

13 fact a real weapon?

14 A. Of course. They were just wooden rifles, yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us, please, whether or not it might have appeared

16 either obviously fake or in fact like a real weapon if viewed from 100 to

17 200 metres away?

18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric?

19 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I object to this question

20 emphatically, because the witness could not be outside his own body 200

21 metres away to be able to see himself with the rifle.

22 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, the witness is a soldier. He was asked

23 this on cross-examination. This is fair redirect and it's a fair question

24 this witness can answer. Let me rephrase it, if it will assist.

25 Q. Sir, you were a trained soldier that operated in the field for

Page 1564












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1565

1 some long period of time. Can you just please tell those of us -- all of

2 us in the Chamber, how do you think the rifle that you were carrying that

3 day, how would that rifle have appeared from approximately 100 to 200

4 metres away?

5 A. It would appear like a real one, and just then, you wouldn't have

6 to be even at that distance to think it was a real one. Even if you were

7 closer, you would think it was a real one, because these are seconds in

8 question, when you don't have time to judge whether it's a real one or

9 something else.

10 Q. All right. Witness J, a final two questions. You've been asked

11 by counsel whether truly in fact you were at risk during this situation.

12 Let me just understand, sir. You were forced to advance in front of an

13 HVO unit; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in fact as a result of that, both you and Mr. Tucakovic - and

16 I apologise for my pronunciation - both of you were wounded during this

17 incident, weren't you?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 MR. SCOTT: I have no further questions, Mr. Fourmy.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, thank you.

21 Witness J, your deposition has been completed. You have seen that

22 sometimes we have rather lively debates, but it is due to the quality of

23 the information that the witnesses bring, so that each party wishes to

24 make the best of that information. So this only shows that this will be

25 extremely interesting for the judges, that you came to The Hague and I

Page 1566

1 thank you for it very much. You will now be able to return home and I

2 wish you a safe journey to your country of residence. Please don't move.

3 Thank you. Please don't move until the usher escorts you out.

4 We will meet again at 2.00 p.m. to continue our deposition

5 hearings. The hearing is adjourned.

6 Goodbye, Witness J.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.


















Page 1567

1 --- On resuming at 2.04 p.m.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] The session is resumed. Please be

3 seated.

4 Mr. Prosecutor, can we have the next witness, please. And do you

5 need any protection measures for him?

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Mr. Fourmy. The witness who is called to

7 testify now has requested face image distortion and pseudonym, as most of

8 our witnesses already had here, for reasons well already known here in the

9 courtroom.

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

11 Madam Registrar, can you please prepare a pseudonym? Oh, I see

12 that's already done.

13 So, Usher, will you please bring the witness in.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Witness K.

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. How long do you think the

16 examination-in-chief will take you, Mr. Prosecutor?

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I will try to complete my task somewhere around

18 one hour.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness, can you hear

21 me?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very good. You asked for protection

24 measures so that you will have your facial distortion for the public, and

25 on the monitors your image will be scrambled, and a pseudonym. Your

Page 1568

1 pseudonym will be Witness K, so do not feel upset if we address you only

2 in that manner, Witness K, all right?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Before you begin with your

5 deposition, I should like to ask you to make the solemn declaration, the

6 text of which the usher will give you.




10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness K. You may be

12 seated.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Try to put yourself at ease, make

15 yourself as comfortable as possible. The microphones are rather powerful,

16 so that you do not have to come too close to microphones to speak.

17 The usher will now show you a sheet of paper with a name on it,

18 and you simply have to look at this sheet of paper and tell me if it is

19 your name on the paper, but do not say it aloud.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. The usher will now show

22 this document to both sides. The procedure that is applied here is as

23 follows: First the Prosecutor will ask you some questions; then it will

24 be the turn of the Defence; and then if the Prosecutor wishes to do so, he

25 may also ask you some additional questions. We shall also make a break

Page 1569

1 after an hour and a half or an hour and 20 minutes, but if I understand

2 well, thanks to the Prosecutor, it will be after he has finished asking

3 you his questions. So unless you have some questions, I will give him the

4 floor.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't have any questions.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness K.

7 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, you now have the floor for the

8 examination-in-chief.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

10 Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

11 Q. Mr. K, just some questions relevant to your background. You're a

12 Bosniak Muslim, correct?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. Did you belong to any military ABiH formation in 1993?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. Where did your unit hold the lines?

17 A. In the village of Rotimlja.

18 Q. What kind of tasks did you have?

19 A. Our task was the defence against the Serb aggressor.

20 Q. Were there any tensions between the ABiH and HVO at that time? I

21 mean the time when you had to resist the Serbs' aggression.

22 A. No, no tension to speak of.

23 Q. And when did these tensions become reality?

24 A. The tensions became a reality when the arrests started, and that

25 was around the -- around June, or rather before that, in Mostar, when the

Page 1570

1 conflict broke out between those two components of the Armija and the HVO,

2 and this also in part found its reflection in our relations, and as the

3 time went on, the tensions grew.

4 Q. Were you ever arrested during the war in 1993?

5 A. I was arrested on the 13th of June 1993.

6 Q. Where did it happen?

7 A. It happened in the village of Rotimlja, or rather the place, the

8 locality, the town.

9 Q. Was your unit involved in combat at that time? I mean the time

10 when you were arrested.

11 A. No. There was no combat at that time. I didn't have even any

12 weapons on me at the moment of my arrest. Our unit was to leave the

13 area. However, HVO unit intercepted us and captured us.

14 Q. Why was your unit to leave the area?

15 A. We were to leave the area because major HVO forces had stationed

16 there, and in order to avoid an armed conflict, we had to leave the area.

17 Q. Did soldiers in your unit put some resistance when you were being

18 arrested?

19 A. No.

20 Q. What military rank did you have at the time?

21 A. There were no ranks at the time. I was just a plain soldier.

22 Q. Were there any commissioned and non-commissioned officers in your

23 unit?

24 A. No, no. There weren't any.

25 Q. Did your commander have any military rank?

Page 1571

1 A. Our commander did not have a rank. We did not address him by any

2 rank. At that time, our commander had already been arrested by then, and

3 kept in the Gabela prison.

4 Q. Who arrested you? I mean, which unit, which soldiers?

5 A. Which units? HVO units, or rather, units which had

6 arm -- insignia with the letters HVO. And in conversations, and because

7 we recognised some of the soldiers, they were known as Bozan's men. That

8 was a unit belonging to the 3rd Battalion.

9 Q. Who was in command of that unit? Do you know?

10 A. The commander of the 3rd Battalion was Obradovic.

11 Q. Where were you taken after the arrest?

12 A. There, in that place when we were arrested, we were taken to a

13 room, to a place in Rotimlja, a building which housed their command, and

14 after a while we were taken to the Gabela camp. I spent -- I was in the

15 Gabela camp until the evening of the same day, but then again, that very

16 evening, I was moved over to the Heliodrom camp in Mostar.

17 Q. Were you registered on arrival to Gabela and Heliodrom?

18 A. Registered by whom?

19 Q. I mean by the people who were running these facilities.

20 A. No, not in Gabela. Nobody registered us there. And when we

21 reached Heliodrom, no, not there again. I don't know that anyone

22 registered us. They simply put us in the premises of the central prison,

23 and it was only later on that the Red Cross registered us.

24 Q. Were you interviewed by some people running the Heliodrom about

25 your military background, your status?

Page 1572

1 A. No. Nobody conducted any interview with me. We were in that

2 group which was brought and put the first night in solitary confinement,

3 and the rest of the time, that is, about 20 days, in the basement. Nobody

4 conducted any official interview with us.

5 Q. Do you know which unit was running Heliodrom at that time? Unit

6 or formation?

7 A. The prison was run by the military police.

8 Q. Why do you think so?

9 A. Well, I think so because the military police had their insignia

10 which said "HVO Military Police," and they also had white belts and the

11 bandolier over their camouflage uniforms.

12 Q. Do you know who was the commander of Heliodrom at that time?

13 A. I am not absolutely sure, but I think that in the beginning it

14 was -- that one of the commanders was a man called Tomo Sokota. I don't

15 know who succeeded him.

16 Q. Could you spell his name, please, in your own language?

17 A. I can, yes.

18 Q. First, first name, and full name.

19 A. T-o-m-o. That is the first name. And the last name, S-, with a

20 diacritic mark, -o-k-o-t-a.

21 Q. So you explained to us that first you were kept for some period of

22 time in the basement.

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Did they keep all people taken from Rotimlja together?

25 A. All of us who were brought then, yes, we were put in the same

Page 1573

1 basement, plus the others who were being brought, those who had stayed

2 behind in that village, I mean, villagers, the civilians. They were also

3 put together with us there.

4 Q. When were you registered by the Red Cross? While you were kept in

5 the basement, or later?

6 A. The Red Cross registered us whilst we were in the basement, but

7 they did not do it in the basement. They had taken us to a room on an

8 upper floor to be registered there by the Red Cross. And as soon as that

9 was over, they took us back immediately. That happened on the 14th of

10 June.

11 Q. Did you see any other prisoners kept in Heliodrom at that time,

12 apart from your, let's say, soldier-mate?

13 A. Yes, yes. I did.

14 Q. Could you tell us a little bit about other prisoners kept in

15 Heliodrom at the time, both in the basement and in other areas where you

16 were taken later?

17 A. Right. While we were in the basement, we could only look through

18 the keyhole or through some small cracks in the door. We could see some

19 men walking up and down the passage, because not far from where we were

20 kept was the kitchen, so that we could see a large number of men kept

21 there, imprisoned there. And later on, when we were transferred to an

22 upper floor, to rooms on an upper floor, we were in a large passage where

23 there were -- leading into three or four rooms, and all one of them were

24 full [as interpreted]. One of them, one of those rooms, was the room

25 where prisoners were kept, I mean prisoners who had committed some

Page 1574

1 transgressions - I don't know - those who had refused to go to the front

2 line or something like that, that is, members of the HVO and some others

3 who had committed some crimes in town or somewhere.

4 Q. Did you have contacts with them?

5 A. Yes, we did, because they would come from their room to our room,

6 and they also -- and would also ill-treat us and take valuables that we

7 had, that one could see, so that -- and this ill-treatment consisted

8 of -- they also sang a lot and made us sing for them, and they even made a

9 band of us, the prisoners there, and came to call it the Blue Band, Plavi

10 Orkestar.

11 Q. Why did they call you the Blue Band?

12 A. We were called Blue Band, I guess, because of the kind of uniforms

13 we wore, because we had arrived there in military, or rather, camouflage

14 uniforms. They gave us a different uniform. They gave us uniforms that

15 were formerly worn by the former army, or rather, cadets who were

16 stationed there, who lived there at the Heliodrom as they underwent

17 training.

18 Q. Did you see female prisoners in Heliodrom?

19 A. Yes. Women were also -- there was a group of women who were

20 imprisoned in Heliodrom. They were upstairs in the loft of the building,

21 in the attic of the building.

22 Q. Can you say just a few words about the conditions of life for

23 prisoners in Heliodrom? I mean food, water, other facilities.

24 A. Well, the conditions were far from normal. We had two meals,

25 rather meagre, water. On a number of occasions, there would be a

Page 1575

1 sufficient quantity. Our accommodation as such was practically none

2 because the space was just too small and there were too many people for

3 any decent accommodation, so that some -- there were some 60 metres square

4 and there would be 62 or 3 men perhaps in one such room. And on only one

5 occasion did we have -- or rather, were left without water or food for 48

6 hours. It happened, I don't know, there was a battle somewhere or

7 something, and so I guess this was done in punishment, to punish us.

8 Q. Do you know anything about military units deployed in Heliodrom

9 area and Heliodrom itself?

10 A. There were some units at the Heliodrom itself. I, of course, have

11 no way of knowing which units exactly and what they were called, but I

12 know that often a large number of troops would come in or go out beneath

13 our windows. There were even two tanks stationed below the prison. And

14 in the vicinity of Heliodrom, to the north, there was also a unit

15 stationed, and I believe it was the 9th Battalion. There was yet another

16 unit called Tigers.

17 Q. Inside Heliodrom?

18 A. Inside, inside the compound.

19 Q. Tigers. Do you know what kind of unit was it?

20 A. It was a unit, what shall I call it? I don't really know, whether

21 -- well, we guessed it was the Croatian army, but what its tasks were, I

22 -- I cannot tell you that.

23 Q. Why do you think that they were from Croatia?

24 A. The prisoners, those who worked for the Tigers, and also those who

25 went to the locality of Buna, to Thunders, to Gromovi, that was another

Page 1576

1 unit, which was part of the Croatian army, and these Gromovi or Thunders,

2 they were the artillery. They were using mortars. And the prisoners

3 talked to those men and those men then told them that they came from some

4 places in Croatia, that is from the Sava valley or places from around

5 Rijeka, Split, and other places, and this is how we concluded that.

6 Q. All right. Did they ever take you outside the Heliodrom?

7 A. Yes, many times.

8 Q. For what purposes?

9 A. The purpose was to take us for forced labour, to fortify the

10 lines, make trenches, make transfer trenches, transfer sandbags, digging

11 the graves, burying the dead, carry the food, fell trees or chop wood, or

12 so on and so forth.

13 Q. Did you ever volunteer to do this job?

14 A. No, I never volunteered.

15 Q. Do you remember in which locations of Heliodrom -- sorry, you

16 performed this, as you called it, forced labour?

17 A. I do remember the locations. Starting from Balinovac, Pasinovac,

18 the Bulevar, Santic street, Rastani, Dzubrani, Vojno, the aviation bridge,

19 the airport and so on.

20 Q. Let's start with the areas of Mostar. Did you know Mostar at that

21 time?

22 A. Yes, I did know it, so-so.

23 Q. Do you remember it now?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Among the locations you were taken to perform forced labour, you

Page 1577

1 just named Santiceva street and Bulevar. Do you remember any --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- specific -- sorry, let me complete my question. Do you

4 remember any specific incidents associated with these two areas, I mean

5 Santiceva street -- let's begin with Santiceva street.

6 A. I remember incidents. Let's start with the Santiceva street. I

7 remember once when we had to push a car full of explosives to a building

8 in which it was assumed the army, Armija, had positions. We were lined up

9 behind a garage wall, and a group of five or six men that were pushing

10 this vehicle towards the building, from the building, fire was opened,

11 quite normally, and people were injured. But regardless of that, as we

12 were lined up against the garage wall, as a man fell, being wounded, a new

13 man had to join the group to push, and this lasted for some ten or 15

14 minutes. And then, in the end, they gave up on the idea. I also remember

15 another incident.

16 Q. Yes, one moment. Let's complete this incident. Did you

17 participate himself [sic] pushing on this car?

18 A. I did not participate because I was still waiting in the line

19 behind the garage wall. It still wasn't my turn.

20 Q. Did you see it yourself?

21 A. Yes. I was there. I saw it personally.

22 Q. Were there any prisoners wounded on that day on Santiceva street

23 while you were performing that operation?

24 A. Yes, there were prisoners wounded. I remember one was a

25 professor, I don't remember his name. He was seriously wounded. I don't

Page 1578

1 even know whether he survived. I don't know what happened to him after

2 that. There were some others who were wounded. Whether they were taken

3 to the emergency ward and whether they were given any emergency treatment,

4 I can't tell you, because at the end of this operation, we were separated

5 from those men.

6 Q. All right. And you mentioned some other incidents on Santiceva

7 street.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor -- excuse me, Witness

9 K.

10 Mr. Prosecutor, if there is a series of incidents, I don't know

11 whether it would be useful for the transcript, and especially for the

12 continuation, to ask the witness for at least the approximate date of each

13 of those incidents.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I will do that.

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 A. It is hard to give you a date because, in moments such as these,

17 in the course of our days as captives, one didn't even know the date, but

18 this can only be estimated. I know that it was maybe sometime in the

19 first half of July, something like that, and then afterwards, again, after

20 mid-August until September, so somewhere there, around those dates.


22 Q. Okay. Let's proceed with the second incident.

23 A. The second incident also occurred with our group in the Santiceva

24 street, or rather Celovina, when a group was emptying fire extinguishing

25 devices and another group was filling those empty devices with explosives,

Page 1579

1 fuses and explosives. We did this all day long. So that as soon as

2 darkness started to fall, we went to the front lines, or rather the line

3 held by the HVO forces, to see the positions of the opposing side, that is

4 the army, and then they would indicate to us the key points where we had

5 to go later and throw those explosives with the fuse lit. So once it got

6 really dark, we would reach those places with the fuses lit. We would

7 cross to the other side of the street because, in fact, there was just a

8 street separating the warring sides, and we would throw those explosives

9 over. And once we had done that, we had to go back to the initial

10 position because we were threatened if one did not return, the rest of the

11 group would be executed.

12 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned confrontation line or front line. Do

13 you remember which are the areas of Mostar belonged to confrontation

14 line?

15 A. Yes. I remember the whole town and where the line was. It went

16 inclusive -- from inclusive, at the southern end, Semovac, or rather the

17 bridge on Radobolja [phoen], and then if you were to draw a line to an old

18 shop selling car parts, I think it was held by Herzegovina Auto, and then

19 straight on towards the fountain at the Bulevar, and then from that

20 fountain again a line. All this followed the road. As I was saying, from

21 the fountain towards the old secondary school, the -- or grammar school.

22 Then the bank, then behind the Hit, and then it went down from Hit towards

23 the post office and Santiceva street. So that in Santiceva street, there

24 was the area around the customs bridge. That is as far as I went. So

25 Celovina and the area towards the Neretva river. That would be roughly

Page 1580












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1581

1 the way the line was at the time.

2 Q. Do you know which unit or units were in charge of the

3 confrontation line, or some areas of the confrontation line?

4 A. There were several units, in my opinion. And as I went to work

5 and while actually working, one could hear the names of some of those

6 units. One could even read some graffiti on the walls, and to conclude

7 from them which units they were. For instance, I know that there was

8 Benko Penavic; that was one unit. Then I know there was an ATG,

9 anti-terrorist group. Then there was a convicts unit. Then a name we

10 heard most often was a group under Stela. Then in Santiceva street, there

11 was a gentleman I think he was called Zele. He was I think one of the

12 commanders there.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now, Mr. Fourmy, I would like to go into a

14 private session for some minutes because our witness now can give names of

15 some people which can reveal his identity and also reveal the identity of

16 these people which the point is not desirable.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1582












12 Page 1582 redacted, private session.














Page 1583

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]


24 Q. Were you ever taken to perform forced labour in other locations

25 than in Mostar?

Page 1584

1 A. Yes, I was. Outside of town I went to the village of Rastani and

2 the village of Vojno, and I also mentioned the airport.

3 Q. How long did you stay in Vojno?

4 A. I stayed in Vojno for under a month. I think this was the end of

5 July until about the 20th, or maybe earlier than that, the 20th of

6 August. As I said, I can't tell you the exact dates.

7 Q. Who was in command of this facility?

8 A. You mean in Vojno?

9 Q. Yes, yes, in Vojno.

10 A. At first, when I arrived there, there was no one among the

11 important people there. But judging by the attitudes they took, I think

12 it was a gentleman called Sunjic or Rudo Ramic. I'm afraid I can't say

13 for sure. But later, Mihalj came.

14 Q. Where were you taken to perform some kind of labour?

15 A. I went to Rastani twice to do forced labour. Once I went there

16 for one day and once I spent a couple of days there, and we slept in a

17 silo which used to store grain before, where grain used to be stored.

18 Q. Do you remember when were you taken to Rastani?

19 A. I was taken to Rastani after an HVO operation which had been

20 carried out against the army, and I was then taken -- I can't say what

21 date it was. It could have been sometime in September. I don't know for

22 sure. Anyway, we were taken there in order to dig trenches and to fortify

23 the line that had been reached as a result of that operation.

24 Q. Did you see any villagers in Rastani while performing forced

25 labour?

Page 1585

1 A. No. In Rastani I didn't see any civilians, and the houses had

2 been burnt down, so that I didn't notice any civilians in the village.

3 Q. All right. When were you released from Heliodrom?

4 A. I was released from the Heliodrom on the 19th of March, 1994.

5 Q. How did it happen?

6 A. The International Red Cross arrived and said that things had been

7 agreed, that there would be release of prisoners, detainees, whatever you

8 wish to call them. And through the mediation of the International Red

9 Cross, this exchange was carried out.

10 Q. And my last question, just to clarify: Could you repeat the name

11 of the Croatian army that was deployed in Heliodrom?

12 A. They were the Tigrovi, or Tigers.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Okay. Mr. Fourmy, I have completed my direct

14 examination ten minutes ahead of time. Thank you very much.

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Prosecutor.

16 I think that if I try very hard, I could contradict you by saying that you

17 have spared nine minutes and I don't know how many seconds, and I am very

18 grateful to you for it.

19 Mr. Krsnik or Mr. Seric. I don't know in which order you wish to

20 proceed. Perhaps Mr. Krsnik first.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

22 Q. Good afternoon. Let me introduce myself. I'm attorney Krsnik and

23 I represent the accused Mladen Naletilic. I have a few questions for

24 you. I will speak slowly, and please wait for me to finish because of the

25 interpretation. And I shall try and phrase my questions so that you can

Page 1586

1 give me brief and concise answers: "yes," "no," "I don't know." That is

2 what I shall try to do in order to save time.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could we perhaps go into private

4 session for the first couple of minutes? I won't take long in general,

5 but maybe to begin with I might enter the area of some identification

6 particulars, so could we have a private session.

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, yes, please. Can we

8 go into private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1587












12 Page 1587 redacted, private session.














Page 1588












12 Page 1588 redacted, private session.














Page 1589












12 Page 1589 redacted, private session.














Page 1590












12 Page 1590 redacted, private session.














Page 1591












12 Page 1591 redacted, private session.














Page 1592












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1593

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please proceed, Mr. Krsnik.


18 Q. [Interpretation] Was the Gabela camp run by somebody called Boko?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And is he a member of the military police?

21 A. I don't know whose member he is.

22 Q. Did military police search you when you entered the camp?

23 A. Whether it was the military police or somebody else, I was

24 searched at the time of arrest and at the time of arrival in Gabela.

25 Q. Did they have white belts?

Page 1594

1 A. I don't remember that.

2 Q. That is what you said about Heliodrom.

3 A. About Heliodrom, yes, I can give you information. And as for --

4 Q. And the security unit at the Heliodrom, did they have patches on

5 their sleeves saying VP -- MP, military police?

6 A. They had badges which said HVO military police.

7 Q. The Tigers, do you know anything about that unit, or is it only

8 that you heard stories about it from somebody else, from other

9 co-prisoners or whatever you call them?

10 A. All I can tell you is that through the window that I saw men

11 wearing patches of the Tigers, but other people worked for them, so they

12 will know more about them than I personally.

13 Q. But you personally?

14 A. No, I could only observe them.

15 Q. So did you see a Tiger or what or the lettering?

16 A. No, I couldn't really see the inscription.

17 Q. Yes, of course. And what about the Gromovi, about Thunders; you

18 only heard about them?

19 A. Yeah. I heard about it from my colleagues who were with me, and

20 they also will tell you more about them too.

21 Q. You personally don't know anything about them?

22 A. No, I don't.

23 Q. And you do not have any personal knowledge again because you

24 mentioned this Convicts Battalion?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 1595

1 Q. Do you know where it was? You said it was stationed somewhere in

2 the town. Is it that you personally know or from stories?

3 A. Well, I worked in that part of the town.

4 Q. And where was that?

5 A. That was between -- now, how shall I explain it? As you come down

6 the Bulevar to Rondo and then to Balinovac, in that part of the street,

7 that is where the unit, I think Benko Penavic, and then an ATG group, and

8 -- but they were called -- or rather, what we called them, Stela's men,

9 and then they said one of those, one of those was the Convicts Battalion.

10 I cannot attribute this name to that unit and another name to another

11 unit. That is what I heard, through people talking.

12 Q. So it was just through talking and stories and it is in these

13 streets that you just mentioned, it was positions over there?

14 A. Yes, somewhere there.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel is conversing with his client.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Could you perhaps show it on the map where that could be?

18 A. Yes, of course I could do it. Why not?

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I didn't think to do this but

20 I'm coming to the end. This is my final, my last question, Mr. Fourmy,

21 because I was quite happy with this answer because all this is based on

22 hearsay.

23 Mr. Usher, will you please help me?

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] [no English translation] ... a larger

25 photograph. I'm sorry. I did understand the drift of your question a

Page 1596

1 moment ago and perhaps you will need a larger photograph for this.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Well, I am very familiar with

3 Mostar. I know the streets that the witness is talking about. So it's

4 all here but as I said it's all based on hearsay so this is just an

5 additional minor verification so this is the end. I do not have any

6 further questions.

7 Q. The part where those units were stationed was there. No, I'm

8 asking about the Convicts Battalion, the Convicts Battalion.

9 A. I heard about it from those soldiers. I cannot say that which is

10 the Convicts Battalion and which is not.

11 Q. Yes. That's what we are talking about. I'm not putting words in

12 your mouth. I'm just saying you heard it from other people.

13 A. Right.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, since this is the end of

15 my cross-examination and my last question, and I understand what is the

16 origin of those stories, so I will not ask any further questions, thank

17 you.

18 Q. Witness K, can you perhaps show it?

19 A. No, this is not clear enough.

20 Q. You don't think it's clear enough?

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Would you rather use a colour

22 photograph, the same photograph but in colour?

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This will be all right.

24 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit 14.5.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] That's right.

Page 1597

1 A. Rondo is up there.

2 Q. Yes, you are following -- you are moving in a good direction.

3 You're getting warmer. The Rondo is up there.

4 A. It's here.

5 Q. Well, tell us roughly, where was this Convicts Battalion?

6 A. Well, this is not a good enough photograph.

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I'm offering you a better photograph,

8 Mr. Krsnik.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Well, I used this photograph owing to

10 the good services of the Prosecution, but here we have a larger

11 photograph, a photograph covering a larger area.

12 THE REGISTRAR: What is the exhibit number?

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] 14.3/1.

14 Q. And how about this photograph? Can you find your way around this

15 photograph?

16 A. Somewhere here, somewhere there. It was on a corner.

17 Q. As you go down that street from Rondo towards Bulevar?

18 A. No, no, no. Towards Balinovac, towards Balinovac. And there, on

19 the corner, was one command station, and I think that was Mr. Stela's

20 command, and across the street was yet another command which had a

21 graffiti there saying Benko Penavic. And it was there -- now, whether

22 this was the official name or not, but they were saying, "We're the

23 Convicts' Battalion," we're this, we're that.

24 Q. So it is somewhere in this part, in that area near Stela's

25 command?

Page 1598

1 A. Yes, somewhere in that area.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very well. I do not have any further

3 questions, Mr. Fourmy. Thank you. Thank you very much.

4 Thank you, Witness K.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krsnik. And it is

6 sometimes very difficult to control the situation to the very end, but

7 then I would like to suggest that we benefit from the end of this part of

8 cross-examination and to make our break now, to resume at a quarter to

9 4.00, at 1545. The session is adjourned.

10 --- Recess taken at 3.22 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 3.47 p.m.

12 MR. FOURMY: [No interpretation]

13 [Technical difficulty]

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, I'm sorry. Do you know how

15 long your cross-examination will take, so that the Prosecutor could know?

16 If it would be very short, if you will have only a few questions, then

17 perhaps we could have a witness -- then the Prosecution could have another

18 witness ready. It's only to help the Prosecutor to organise better. As

19 you know, tomorrow we have to break at lunch-time, so that perhaps we

20 could --

21 Yes, please, do sit down, I'm saying to the witness.

22 Perhaps with the interpreters' cooperation, perhaps we could work

23 for an extra five minutes, if necessary.

24 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I've already told our

25 learned friends that this cross-examination will take about 15 to 20

Page 1599

1 minutes; at least, that is what I expect.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you from the bottom of my

3 heart, Mr. Par.

4 Witness K, it will now be the second Defence team which will ask

5 you some questions.

6 Yes, Mr. Par.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

8 Q. Witness K, I'm Zelimir Par, a lawyer and one of the co-counsel for

9 Mr. Vinko Martinovic, Stela. Before I move on to some other questions

10 which have to do with the incident that you told us about today, I'd like

11 to ascertain a few other things with the help of these photographs, to try

12 to make sure of something.

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] So could the usher please put Exhibit

14 14.5 on the ELMO.

15 [Technical difficulty]

16 MR. PAR: [No interpretation]

17 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

18 MR. PAR: [No interpretation]

19 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

20 A. I simply cannot see it properly on this photograph, so that I'm

21 afraid --

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I think we have a problem with the

23 transcript.

24 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] The question was whether the witness

25 could identify the place where he was brought on the day that Stela beat a

Page 1600

1 prisoner. The witness complained that the photograph was not clear enough

2 to him.

3 Q. But I can describe it to you what it looked like. Let's see. If

4 you cannot identify that place on this photograph, if you do not find your

5 way around this photograph, tell us so: "I can't find my way around, I

6 cannot identify the place, I do not know."

7 A. No. I simply don't -- can't figure it out.

8 Q. Do you know the area that was under Stela's responsibility, the

9 area of responsibility of Stela's unit?

10 A. Well, a part of it, a part of that area, was as you came down

11 the --

12 Q. No. You don't have to go into that. Just say -- do you know or

13 do you not know it?

14 A. I know a part of it.

15 Q. Can you show it on this map or can't you?

16 A. It is next to this fountain here.

17 Q. If you are showing it, then do it on the ELMO.

18 A. It's around the fountain here, this part here, around here.

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Very well. Then let us not mark this,

20 but note for the record that the witness pointed at the area around the

21 fountain, in front of a facility called --

22 Q. You will tell us. The fountain is in front of what?

23 A. The fountain is on the street called Bulevar, at the turning to

24 the upper part of the town.

25 Q. But do you know what this building next to the fountain is called?

Page 1601

1 A. No, I don't, not really.

2 Q. Right. Never mind. So we do not need the photograph any more.

3 Thank you very much. We shall not need it any more.

4 Witness K, let us then go back to that day which you described

5 when you met Stela. What day was it, what period of time, what segment of

6 time? Can you identify it?

7 A. I cannot give you the exact date but that was sometime in July,

8 I'd say, sometime up to the 10th of July, thereabouts.

9 Q. I see. Up to the 10th of July. And you say that you arrived with

10 a group of prisoners. Can you give us the names of some of the prisoners

11 that were with you in the group?

12 A. Well, the names are in my statement, in the statement that I've --

13 that I gave to the people from The Hague Tribunal.

14 Q. Witness K, you are here a witness testifying before this Court,

15 before this Tribunal, and therefore you should tell us that. Is there any

16 reason why you do not want or cannot give us the names of those

17 prisoners?

18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, excuse me, I'm sorry, but if

19 you want to make it easier for the witness to answer, perhaps we could go

20 into private session for a few minutes, if you think that might help.

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, thank you. My question had

22 to do with the names of prisoners who were -- who could have arrived with

23 the witness that day to that place. I do not know why should the names of

24 these prisoners be a secret and especially I see no reason to do that in a

25 private session. Of course, I do not know what the Prosecutor thinks.

Page 1602

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor?

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, I think that if you want to talk about other

3 people who were along with Mr. K, we should have a private session,

4 because you know that some of these people may be called to the Court to

5 testify and they should be protected even at this stage.

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] In that case, I agree, yes. I accept

7 that we go into private session.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let us move into private

9 session. Madam Registrar, will you call the technical booth.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1603












12 Page 1603 redacted, private session.














Page 1604












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1605

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Par. Please proceed.

8 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Let us go back to that day. Do you remember who is it that

10 brought you from Heliodrom to the place where the incident took place?

11 A. I can't remember exactly who was it that drove us there but I know

12 that as I -- when I worked there, I know that there was a gentleman who

13 drove us and who drove a vehicle we called the Deutz. I believe his name

14 was Dinko, something like that.

15 Q. Right. So when you arrived there, you said you sat down and were

16 sitting until allegedly Stela came?

17 A. Yes. We were sitting next to the house where we were to work

18 later on.

19 Q. Did anyone guard you? Were there any guards around you? How was

20 it organised?

21 A. Well, there were soldiers around, there were soldiers there.

22 Whether their role was to guard us or whether their role was simply to

23 watch us, I can't say. I do not really know what their role was.

24 Q. Witness K, you were a prisoner of war. You must know what it

25 means to be watched and what it means to be a captive and to be guarded.

Page 1606

1 So when that group arrived, was this group guarded, which meant whether

2 its movement was controlled, what each one of them was to do, to see that

3 they wouldn't escape. In that sense, were there guards?

4 A. Yes, in that case were there guards because we did not move

5 anywhere, we just sat there in one place. We did not walk around. We did

6 not simply move around anywhere. Furthermore, you know it -- well, you

7 were not in my place, but I was. When you are faced with such a

8 situation, then you practically try not to even to bat an eyelid, let

9 alone move around. So I didn't really look around. I didn't try to see

10 what was going on and how it was. I suppose it must have been the fear

11 that I felt.

12 Q. Witness K, my question having to do with the guard was meant to

13 establish whether it was a particular unit that guarded you, whether that

14 was a unit, a specific unit or some specific soldiers. I simply wanted to

15 verify your story about this incident. So that is why I'm asking you

16 whether there was somebody issuing orders there to help us identify the

17 persons and the unit which was there.

18 A. I cannot tell you that, whether it was these men or those others

19 who guarded us. I can tell you it was a soldier or several soldiers who

20 guarded us but I didn't look around so I cannot say.

21 Q. So can we then infer that you believe that you were under some

22 kind of military supervision?

23 A. Well, yes. Of course we were under supervision.

24 Q. And the name of any one of those soldiers who supervised you, can

25 you give me any of the names?

Page 1607

1 A. No, I didn't know any one of them. How could I know them?

2 Q. And then Stela came. How did he come?

3 A. He came from up there, from the entrance to the yard of that

4 house. I told you I didn't know who he was. He came in a vehicle and

5 then he came in on foot. I don't know what kind of vehicle it was, to

6 tell you the truth, and he was followed by this other gentleman that I

7 mentioned.

8 Q. You don't know the -- anything about the vehicle but do you know

9 whether it was yellow, blue, a truck, a jeep or anything? You don't have

10 to give me the make, the brand.

11 A. No, I don't remember.

12 Q. Slowly, please, excuse me. I will be asking you the questions

13 because you have already told us the whole story. So he came out of the

14 car. Was he alone or with this same or with someone else or was anyone

15 else with him?

16 A. I didn't notice. I don't know.

17 Q. Can we remember what he looked like, what he had on, as regards

18 Stela and this other person?

19 A. I have described his face for you as I remember them. To tell you

20 the honest truth, I am unable to describe to you now what clothing they

21 were wearing.

22 Q. What about weapons? Were they armed?

23 A. I didn't notice that either, because we were all standing with our

24 heads bowed.

25 Q. As far as I remember, you said you were sitting down and that was

Page 1608

1 what provoked the whole incident.

2 A. Yes, but when the gentleman approached to about ten metres away

3 from us, the cursing started, the order to stand at attention, so we were

4 standing.

5 Q. When did you learn that this was Stela?

6 A. As he approached, he said that that was his name.

7 Q. Did anyone of the prisoners say, "Here comes Stela," or something

8 to that effect?

9 A. No, I didn't hear it.

10 Q. Is Stela in the courtroom now?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you please identify him. Look at him and tell us where he

13 is.

14 A. The gentleman over there, with the headphones on.

15 Q. You see what he looks like now. How did he look then as compared

16 to what he looks like now?

17 A. As far as his face is concerned, and his physical appearance,

18 there is virtually no difference.

19 Q. But a long time has gone by; eight years.

20 A. Yes. I didn't look very closely at the gentleman.

21 Q. Have you seen him on television recently or in the newspapers?

22 A. I'm not really following the media too much.

23 Q. Sema Bosnjic, do you remember any details about him and his

24 appearance, what he looked like, how he was armed?

25 A. Sema, I just saw him the way he walked. I know that he limped and

Page 1609

1 I remember very well that he had a big scar on his forehead.

2 Q. When did you learn that that was Sema Bosnjic and who told you

3 that?

4 A. I learned that also from the soldiers who were saying that that

5 was he. They even said that he was Mr. Stela's deputy. Whether that is

6 true or not, I don't know. That is what I heard.

7 Q. Do you know whether Sema was a Muslim or a Croat?

8 A. Judging by his name, I assume he was a Muslim, but what his

9 options were, I really don't know.

10 Q. So you assume?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You do have some information about him, as you have told us, that

13 he may have been killed. Do you know how his scar came into being? So

14 it's not -- it's not possible for you not to know something that is

15 obvious, whether he was a Muslim or not.

16 A. Well, you see, for me, that doesn't matter what ethnicities or

17 religion a person is. For me, what is important is that he's a good human

18 being.

19 Q. So Stela and Sema arrived, and on that occasion, one of the

20 prisoners was beaten up, and we won't mention his name now. So one

21 prisoner was beaten up, the one we mentioned; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, correct.

23 Q. Were you beaten up on that occasion?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you tell this story in a different way ever? But to be more

Page 1610

1 specific, let me ask you more specifically. On the 6th of July, 1995, did

2 you tell the police in Mostar that you were beaten by Stela?

3 A. I never said that, and if it says anything else in the statement,

4 those are not my words. And if that is what is written in the statement,

5 I had no intention of incriminating anyone or facilitating anyone's

6 position. I'm here to tell the truth.

7 Q. I will show you now the statement, and the part has been

8 highlighted where it says that, so please review that statement. When I

9 say "review it," look at the header, where it says which institution took

10 the statement from you, check your particulars and your signature, please,

11 and then you will answer some questions linked to that statement.

12 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher, please ...

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, shouldn't we go into private

14 session? Because the document will certainly contain elements that might

15 identify the witness.

16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. Fourmy. Thank you very

17 much for your assistance.

18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please.

19 [Private session]







Page 1611












12 Page 1611 redacted, private session.














Page 1612












12 Page 1612 redacted, private session.














Page 1613












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1614













13 Page 1614 redacted, private session.













Page 1615

1 [Open session]

2 A. As far as I know and as far as I remember, it was known as

3 Kajtaz's house. That is the information I have. I described where it was

4 situated. I said that across the way was another unit with the graffiti

5 on the wall. It said "Benko Penavic."

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much. I don't have any further

7 questions.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.

9 Witness K, you have completed your deposition. Thank you for the

10 information you have conveyed. You will be able to leave. Please don't

11 move until the usher has pulled down the blinds. I take advantage of the

12 opportunity to thank you once again for your deposition and to wish you a

13 safe journey to your country of residence.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, for your next

17 witness, how do we stand regarding protective measures?

18 MR. BOS: Good afternoon, Mr. Fourmy. Our next witness is

19 protected by a pseudonym and has facial distortion.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The witness's pseudonym will be L.

22 MR. BOS: Thank you.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Can you hear me,

Page 1616

1 please?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.

3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] You asked for certain protective

4 measures consisting of facial distortion on the videotape and on the

5 screen, and you will also have a pseudonym, and that is Witness L. So

6 please don't be offended. That is the only way we will be able to address

7 you. You will be, for us, Witness L. Is that agreed?

8 Before you start with your deposition, will you please read the

9 solemn declaration given to you by the usher.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]



14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please take a seat --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] -- and make yourself as comfortable

17 as possible. Please feel at ease. We're just trying to learn from you

18 what you know, and for that purpose will you try and answer as precisely

19 as possible, listening carefully to the questions put to you.

20 Mr. Usher, could you show the witness, please, the document with

21 his name on it.

22 Witness L, don't pronounce your name. Just tell us whether that

23 is your name.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. So it will first be the

Page 1617

1 Prosecutor who will have questions for you and then it will be the turn of

2 the Defence. Having said that, I don't think that we will have time for

3 questions from the Defence this evening, so, Mr. Prosecutor, please begin

4 with your examination-in-chief, and thank you in advance.

5 MR. BOS: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy, and may I ask that for the first

6 couple of questions we can go into private session.

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Registrar. Private

8 session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1618

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Prosecutor.

15 MR. BOS:

16 Q. Witness L, do you know of a village named Rastani?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. And do you know what happened to Rastani on the 20th of September

19 1993?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Could you tell us about this.

22 A. On the 20th of September 1993, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

23 captured Rastani and placed it under its control.

24 Q. And were you present on that day in Rastani, as a member of the

25 Bosnian army?

Page 1619

1 A. I was not. Only when darkness fell, in the evening.

2 Q. So you went to Rastani in the evening on the 20th of September

3 1993; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. How long did you stay there?

6 A. Until the next day, in the evening, that is the 21st, in the

7 evening.

8 Q. Where did you go on the 21st?

9 A. I went to Vrapcici.

10 Q. And where is Vrapcici located in relation to Rastani? North,

11 south, east or west from Rastani?

12 A. East, I believe.

13 Q. How far is Vrapcici from Rastani?

14 A. Three, four kilometres, not more than that.

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Prosecutor. For the

16 transcript perhaps we should have the spelling, because if we need to find

17 these places on the map -- and I do apologise, but these -- this

18 geographical information goes beyond my abilities. Thank you.

19 MR. BOS: Thank you.

20 Q. Witness L, can could you spell the name of the village Vrapcici,

21 spell it in your own language, please?

22 A. V-r-a-p-c-i-c-i, both Cs with diacritical marks.

23 Q. Thank you. And where did you stay in Vrapcici?

24 A. In a house.

25 Q. Now, what happened in Rastani in the days after you left Rastani

Page 1620

1 and went to Vrapcici? Do you know that?

2 A. I did not -- I do not know what period of time you have in mind.

3 Q. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 A. (redacted)

6 attack on Rastani.

7 Q. (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 A. I did.

10 Q. And with whom did you go back?

11 A. (redacted)

12 Q. What's his name?

13 (redacted)

14 Q. His last name?

15 (redacted)

16 Q. And did you go back to Rastani to assist your colleagues in

17 defending the village of Rastani? Was that the purpose of your return to

18 Rastani?

19 A. That's right.

20 (redacted)

21 A. Yes, we were.

22 Q. Did you encounter somebody when you arrived in Rastani?

23 A. We came across a group carrying the wounded.

24 Q. Were these Muslim soldiers, this group?

25 A. They were members of the Armija, yes. And there were civilians

Page 1621












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1622

1 amongst them.

2 Q. How many civilians were amongst this group?

3 A. Two, I think.

4 Q. Did you recognise any of the civilians?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. Can you tell me who it was? Can you tell me his name?

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted).

10 Q. Did you speak with Safet Memic on that occasion?

11 A. I did.

12 Q. What did Safet Memic tell you?

13 A. Well, he said they had been brought here by the troops, and that

14 he had fled over to this side.

15 Q. And when he said that he was brought by the troops, which troops

16 was he referring to?

17 A. The HVO.

18 Q. And where had the soldiers taken him from?

19 A. From the Heliodrom.

20 Q. And did he tell you what he -- what he needed to do for the HVO

21 soldiers when he was taken to Rastani?

22 A. He didn't describe his job to me in very precise terms.

23 Q. What did he say in general terms?

24 A. That he was sent ahead of them so as to reconnoitre the positions

25 and then come back.

Page 1623

1 Q. And he didn't come back, but on that occasion, he fled? Is that

2 what he said?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Now, what happened after you had encountered this group of Muslim

5 soldiers?

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, excuse me, Witness.

7 Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

9 I apologise to you, Mr. Bos. I counted questions. I was

10 reluctant to interrupt you but this was the fourth leading question, so

11 let us not waste time discussing this further. I'd merely like to ask you

12 to phrase your questions properly, proper in the proper manner for direct

13 examination. Thank you, and once again, my apologies for interrupting.

14 MR. BOS: May I continue?


16 Mr. Prosecutor, I hope you will take note of this objection and

17 please proceed.

18 MR. BOS:

19 Q. So what happened after you had encountered this group of Muslim

20 soldiers? What happened next?

21 A. We moved on towards the positions.

22 Q. Then what happened?

23 A. Meanwhile, there was fierce artillery fire and we took shelter in

24 a house.

25 Q. Do you remember the name of the house, who it belonged to?

Page 1624

1 A. The house has no name to it, but that area, that locality is

2 called Dumpor's houses. It is a cluster of houses.

3 Q. What happened after you had taken shelter in the Dumpor houses?

4 A. We waited for the artillery fire to stop, and after a while, we

5 heard voices outside. So we peeped out, and at that moment, we saw rifles

6 aimed at us and heard a call to come out. And we came out, and we noticed

7 that it -- that they were -- that those soldiers were members of the HVO.

8 Q. How many HVO soldiers did you see at that time?

9 A. About ten.

10 Q. And do you know from which units these soldiers were, which HVO

11 units?

12 A. Not at the time.

13 Q. But later on, you did?

14 A. Later on, I learned that, yes.

15 Q. And what did you learn later on? Which units were they from?

16 A. That they were members of an ATG group from Mostar and an ATG

17 group from Siroki Brijeg.

18 Q. How come that you learned that they were from an ATG group Listica

19 and an ATG group from Mostar?

20 A. I learned that they were from Mostar ATG because there was there

21 Miro Kolobara. He was with that group, and later on, he was in the same

22 prison that I was in, in Ljubuski. And that is where I learned that he

23 was a member of the Mostar ATG.

24 Q. And how did you learn that there were also soldiers from the ATG

25 Listica?

Page 1625

1 A. Because we were taken to Listica because that group captured us

2 and they took us to their seat.

3 Q. Just to clarify, Witness L, Listica, is that another name for

4 Siroki Brijeg? Are Listica and Siroki Brijeg the same name for the same

5 village?

6 A. Yes. They are two names for one and the same town.

7 Q. Now, let's go back to this group of ten HVO soldiers, you said.

8 So you've mentioned one person, Mr. Kolobara. Did you recognise any other

9 person in that group?

10 A. I did. I recognised a person whose nickname was Splico.

11 Q. Where did you know him from?

12 A. I met him in 1992, in the north camp. That is where an HVO unit

13 was quartered. And on one occasion I was present when he came and I heard

14 other people calling out to him. Otherwise, his appearance is quite

15 characteristic.

16 Q. Do you know where this a.k.a. Splico, where he came from?

17 A. I don't.

18 Q. Now, this group which arrested you, were they all soldiers?

19 A. There were some civilians among them.

20 Q. And what did they do, these civilians in that group?

21 A. I spotted that one of them had grenades, grenades for the

22 hand-held mortar.

23 Q. Would you know what kind of ethnicity these two persons were

24 who -- these two civilians were?

25 A. I wouldn't know.

Page 1626

1 Q. What happened after you were arrested at the Dumpor houses? What

2 did the soldiers do to you?

3 A. We were beaten there. They hit us with rifle butts and their

4 hands, and kicked us. They brought a cannister full of petrol from

5 somewhere and they poured petrol over my colleague. They gave us bank

6 notes to chew them and swallow them. And it went on for about half an

7 hour, maybe an hour, and then they left. Most of them left. Only two

8 stayed behind with us, until darkness fell. And when darkness fell, a

9 shift came and took us towards Bakijina Luka.

10 Q. How did you go towards Bakijina Luka? Did you go by car or by

11 foot?

12 A. On foot.

13 Q. And what happened when you arrived at Bakijina Luka?

14 A. I didn't understand.

15 Q. When you arrived at Bakijina Luka, where were you taken next?

16 A. From Bakijina Luka, we were put in a van and taken to Siroki

17 Brijeg.

18 Q. And did people beat you in the van?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So then you arrived in Siroki Brijeg. You were still together

21 with your friend Arif Maric; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. Where were you taken in Siroki Brijeg?

24 A. They took us to the tobacco station at Siroki Brijeg and they

25 brought us to a building, into a room where there were six or seven men in

Page 1627

1 uniforms, persons in uniforms, who asked questions, pushing us, striking

2 us. Then they took me out of that room and into another room. There were

3 two or three persons in that room; I'm not sure. One of them hit me with

4 his foot in the chest. But I wasn't there long in that room.

5 Q. The person who actually hit you in the chest, could you describe

6 that person?

7 A. That man looked around 50 years of age, with a grey beard, medium

8 height, around 180, 185 centimetres.

9 Q. Was he wearing a uniform?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What kind of uniform?

12 A. A camouflage, a military uniform.

13 Q. Do you remember whether it had a patch on the uniform?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. So what happened after you were kicked and beaten by these two or

16 three persons? What happened next?

17 A. Then I was taken out of the building through the entrance, to the

18 front door, and I was there for a while - I don't know - and after that I

19 do not remember anything until the street.

20 Q. Just let me go back. So you were taken outside in front of the

21 tobacco building, and you said that you sat there, and then you say you

22 don't remember. Why don't you remember what happened after that?

23 A. As the soldiers were passing by, they would hit me, and I suppose

24 that after one of such blows, I fainted.

25 Q. Now, when you recovered, where were you?

Page 1628

1 A. I was in a room about a metre and a half by three metres, without

2 any furniture. There was nothing in it. One wall was tin plate and there

3 were no windows in it.

4 Q. Was anyone in the room adjacent to you, the room which was against

5 the wall which was tin-plated, adjacent to the tin-plated wall?

6 A. In that other room -- my colleague was in that other room.

7 Q. That was Arif Maric. And --

8 A. Right.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... communicate with him?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How was that possible?

12 A. Because there was only that tin plate between us. We could not

13 see one another, but we could hear one another.

14 Q. Now, later on that day, did they put a bed in your cell?

15 A. Later on, yes, a bed was brought in.

16 Q. Is it correct that after 12 days, Arif Maric was actually also

17 brought in your cell?

18 A. That's right. After 12 days, he was transferred from his to my

19 cell, because another prisoner had been brought to his cell.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apologies, and thank you for

22 giving me the floor. My apologies to Mr. Bos. You know that we are

23 listening with great attention to your questions, and the last three

24 questions were again highly leading, but I am objecting only to this last

25 question. I think it should be phrased differently. And please don't

Page 1629












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1630

1 misunderstand me. I'm not trying to suggest anything, to insinuate

2 anything, or to interfere with your direct examination in any way, but I

3 only want to ask you to rephrase these questions and the questions that

4 will follow. Thank you very much for your understanding, and once again,

5 my apologies for interrupting.

6 MR. BOS: May I respond? I realise that the last couple of

7 questions were leading, but I did that on purpose to speed up this

8 examination, and I don't think it's of such importance that these

9 questions need to be put in a different way. But if counsel insists, I

10 will refrain from doing it. It will take a little longer then.

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We are here to learn, as you know, so

12 I think it is owing to this joint effort that we can arrive at the best

13 procedure. Now, please proceed.

14 MR. BOS:

15 Q. When Arif Maric was brought in to your cell, did the guards

16 actually put an extra bed in the cell?

17 A. Yes.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, interpreter's correction, the answer

19 is, "No, we shared one bed."

20 MR. BOS:

21 Q. Could you tell the Court how many days you were in the cell

22 together with Arif Maric?

23 A. I wouldn't know exactly but I'd say about 40 days.

24 Q. Could you tell us about the food that you were provided when you

25 were detained in the tobacco station?

Page 1631

1 A. We were getting some dry pack. In the beginning, for the first

2 few days, regularly, one meal a day. Then it began to happen every second

3 day. Once we received our next ration after three days. And what we were

4 given was about half a loaf of bread, or one loaf, some margarine and some

5 marmalade.

6 Q. Could you go to the toilet? What happened when you needed to go

7 to the toilet?

8 A. We would go to the toilet on those occasions when they brought us

9 food. It was the only time they opened the door and allowed us to go to

10 the WC.

11 Q. Now, on the second day that you were detained in the tobacco

12 station, do you remember what happened on that day?

13 A. I remember it, yes. That day, they first took Arif away, and

14 after a while, I heard screams. I recognised his voice. And a little

15 later, he was brought back. And then they took me along, and they took me

16 to the upper floor. And upstairs, there was a member in a uniform, and he

17 took my particulars, that is my name, place of residence and suchlike, and

18 then I was taken back to the cell. They did not beat me.

19 Q. Now, you said that you heard Arif Maric scream. Did you later

20 find out what happened to him?

21 A. Yes. Later on, he told me that they applied current from the army

22 telephone, that is the wires, and they would place them on the -- on his

23 hands and they would start winding up the inductor telephone so that he

24 would receive those shocks.

25 Q. Now, at one moment, Arif Maric was put in your cell and you said

Page 1632

1 that other people were put in his cell; is that correct? Is that what you

2 said?

3 A. Correct.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, excuse me for

5 interrupting but it is two minutes past 5.00. I was wondering whether

6 this would be a fresh area so maybe it would be an appropriate time to

7 break for this evening.

8 MR. BOS: Thank you.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] So I think we will stop there for

10 today. I thank both parties for the way we worked today because I think

11 we have made some very good progress.

12 Witness, please don't move, remain seated. The usher will

13 accompany you out after he has pulled down the blinds. We will meet here

14 again tomorrow at quarter past 9.00. So I hope you have a pleasant

15 evening and tomorrow, we will proceed in a satisfactory manner, I hope.

16 Thank you. The hearing is adjourned to tomorrow morning at 9.15.

17 --- Whereupon the depositions hearing adjourned at

18 5.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday the 2nd day

19 of August 2001, at 9.15 a.m.