In her important book, Love and Economics, economist Dr. Jennifer Morse argues the family is the central cultural institution responsible for the prosperity and well being of the next generation. She maintains that all of the virtues necessary for flourishing economically are learned in the family. You may not see how love and economics go together, so join us for this interesting discussion of how they connect.

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More About Our Guest

Portrait of Jennifer Morse

Dr. Jennifer Morse is the president of the Ruth Institute, a non-profit organization committed to inspiring survivors of the Sexual Revolution. She is the author of multiple books including The Sexual State as well as numerous pamphlets and tracts, Dr. Morse earned her Ph.D. in Economics at the University of Rochester in 1980. She taught economics at Yale University and George Mason University. Her work has been published in the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Reason, Policy Review, National Review Online, the Journal of Political Economy, the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, the University of Chicago Law Review and she has been a guest on Fox News, CNN and EWTN.

Episode Transcript

Scott Rae: Welcome to the podcast Think Biblically, Conversations on Faith and Culture. I'm your host, Scott Rae, dean of faculty and professor of Christian ethics, Talbot School of theology at Biola University. We're here with our guest today, Dr. Jennifer Morris, who's the founder and director of the Ruth Institute. Her background is in economics, has a PhD from the University of Rochester and has taught at both George Mason and at Yale, until leaving that to found the Ruth Institute and she functions as its full time face and director today. She's a widely sought after speaker, media expert, a handful of terrific books. If you listen to our podcast regularly, you may recall we had her on recently for her newer book called The Sexual State.

I want to talk to her today about a book that's been out for a while, but it's really important stuff. It's got just so much insightful stuff that I want our listeners to get access to. So the book is entitled Love and Economics, and it turns Hillary Clinton on her head a bit by suggesting that it takes a family to raise a village, not the other way around.

So Jennifer, welcome. Thank you for being with us and for taking the time to talk to us.

Jennifer Morse: Oh, I'm glad to be on your show. Thank you.

Scott Rae: Tell us a little bit about, and I suspect that there's a bit of a backstory behind the book Love and Economics. So tell us a bit about your personal story that prompted you to write the book.

Jennifer Morse: Yes. As you mentioned, my doctorate's in economics and I taught at Yale University and I taught at George Mason University. I was tenured professor at George Mason and never really had any thought of doing anything relating to the family or whatever. But I did want to become a mother. I wanted to have a family. I had it all worked out to where I was going to get pregnant at a particular time so that I wouldn't have to leave my classroom very much. I just had it all worked out. And then of course God intervened with four years of infertility, which of course, turned everything upside down and actually brought me back to the faith. That was actually the crisis of faith that brought me back to the practice of the faith.

But my husband and I resolved our infertility by adopting a little boy from a Romanian orphanage. And this is back in 1991, right after the fall of the Berlin Wall. We were among the first people who adopted East European orphans. So we adopted a little boy and then six months later we gave birth to a little girl. So these two children are three years apart in chronological age, but very different in their background. So our little boy, everything was a struggle for him because he had been in an orphanage, minimal care orphanage, for two and a half years. And then our daughter was born the usual way and everything was just kind of easy, you know?

And so this confluence of events you might say made it clear to me that children really truly need their parents and they need their own parents wherever they possibly can have that. Because my husband and I are just sitting here trying to figure out which end is up, what to do. Nothing in my econ background prepared me for what we had to do. My husband's an engineer, so even less prepared.

So we're looking at this whole thing going what in the world has gone on here? And my plan, my brilliant plan of putting children in daycare, that just evaporated. I mean, I still tried to do it, but it just became clear that was ridiculous.

So we realized that parents do any enormous amount for their children without even realizing it. You might say it's natural or instinctive that we do all these things. And because we had to kind of plan and deliberately install stuff into our little boy to make up for what he didn't have, we became conscious of things that people aren't normally conscious of. And it's an astonishing thing what parents do.

So I became convinced as an economist that the way the society was going toward turning everything into a series of contracts between consenting adults, that this is simply not going to work where children are involved. And of course children are always involved because this is the way we come into the world, as children. So this is a pretty big thing to overlook. And so that's the backstory to Love and Economics.

Scott Rae: Now, let's be little bit more specific on this. I suspect for most of our listeners that connection between love and economics is not readily obvious or intuitively obvious. So what exactly is the connection that you're making between those two in your book?

Jennifer Morse: So the connection that I'm making, Scott, is that economists are counting on love already operating in the background. As an economist and most people who do economics, you're counting on people being able to cooperate with others, wanting to cooperate with others, keeping their promises, doing what they say they're going to do, not shoplifting at every possible opportunity, having some kind of sense of right and wrong and reciprocity, basic reciprocity. And the whole market is based on reciprocity and promise keeping.

And in dealing with a little boy who is at serious risk for some serious psycho stuff, he's fine now, by the way, let me hasten to add. He's 30 years old and he's doing fine. But we saw that it's not a sure thing that a person would develop a conscience.

Scott Rae: So those deficits were apparent from the start?

Jennifer Morse: Yes. And if you don't get that job done of giving a person a sense of right and wrong, a sense of regard for other people and so on, you will not have a functioning free market. You cannot have a free economy. And so this book, really Scott, I was trying to talk to my fellow economists and say look, we cannot just take the language of the market and free exchange and upload it into the family and talk about the family like all we got to do is have the adults agree on everything and everything will be fine. That simply cannot work. That was the backstory. That's why I wrote it and what I was trying to get across.

Scott Rae: So it sounds like you're spelling out a lot of preconditions for not only responsible adults, but for flourishing economies.

Jennifer Morse: Absolutely. That's exactly it.

Scott Rae: We just take for granted.

Jennifer Morse: Take it for granted, tight. So without mom and dad in the background getting this done, there isn't going to be a banking system. There isn't going to be rule of law and contracts. You're going to have chaos because you're going to have people who do whatever they can get away with and you don't have enough cops. You don't have enough social service infrastructure to deal with a whole society full of people who have no conscience.

And in the years since I wrote that book, this book was published in 2001. In the years since has been published, oh my goodness. Things have just gotten even worse with more and more young people being more and more damaged by various kinds of family breakdown and neglect.

Scott Rae: In the book, especially the beginning part. You make a big deal about babies being, as you put it, dependent, helpless and needy. What do we learn about society and about culture from the way we come into the world?

Jennifer Morse: Well, I think as Christians it's very interesting thing that God has chosen to bring us into the world helpless. That's a profound thing when you really think about it. That we're born helpless and if we're lucky enough to die of old age, we'd go out helpless. So if we conceive of society as being something that adult capable people do, that's great. But we got these people who are legitimately dependent and who make legitimate demands upon us.

And I think what goes on in the family's an icon for what goes on between God the father and creation, you know? And therefore we're learning how to be in relationship with other people. We're also learning how to be in relationship with God because God is the trustworthy, loving father who's in command of the situation. We don't have to freak out because we can't control everything. And that's a huge part of a person's faith journey, is to figure out not to freak out every time you're not in control.

Scott Rae: So let's be a little more specific and connect that to our economical.

Jennifer Morse: Okay.

Scott Rae: What do babies learn by the nurture of their parents that is crucial for them to be good, healthy, flourishing participants in an economic system?

Jennifer Morse: Well, I'm going to answer you, but begin by saying learn is not quite the right word because what's happening in the mother child relationship is something that's pre-verbal. It's pre-cognitive. And so it's not like you're sitting there explaining something. When we think of learn often we have that sense, but what happens, the baby is crying. The baby is needy, the baby needs something and they can't solve the problem themselves. They're wet, they're hungry, whatever it is. And they cry and mommy comes and mommy takes care of it and baby goes, ah, and just kind of relaxes it to the care of mommy. Or daddy comes or mommy comes and takes care of the baby and daddy comes and puts his arms around mommy and takes care of her and makes her feel supported and loved and so on.

And so what the baby comes to learn is that the world is safe. The world is reasonable, the world is filled with love and other people matter. And the way you can tell that is by looking at what happens to the child who doesn't have anybody come, the attachment disorder child, the foster child, the orphanage child. These kids, is what we learned that we wouldn't have learned if we hadn't had our son, that they cry and nobody comes. And so what do they do? Well, they start rocking their heads. They start banging their heads, they start stimulating themselves, but they block out the idea of their minds. They black out the possibility that people actually matter. They don't really believe other people matter.

And that's what you have to kind of step into. And that's the void you have to fill as a parent in that situation. That hey, I'm coming and it's going to be all right. Scott, sometimes these kids, they won't let you hold them. That's not normal. That is not normal. Sometimes they don't cry and people think oh, what a good baby. They never cry. That's not normal.

Scott Rae: That's a bad sign.

Jennifer Morse: That's not normal at all. Babies should cry and feel okay about crying. So it's all, the conscience development is all taking place at the pre-verbal level and it somehow mysteriously into the tissues of the body, it affects brain development. I talk about that in my later book Smart Sex. It actually affects brain development and your ability to intuit other people's emotions and things like that. There's actually something called institutional autism, which kids develop.

Scott Rae: Which means?

Jennifer Morse: Which means you've got kids with the autistic symptoms. And the thought is that they develop those systems because nobody was responding to them.

Scott Rae: Really?

Jennifer Morse: Yeah, and the doctors discovered it in these Eastern European orphanages. Whole rooms full of kids that don't look at you. It's profound. And so I wrote Love and Economics partly to convince the economists that they need to pay attention. But also I wanted to say to other women, when you are holding your baby, you are doing something profound. You are doing something so pro social, don't let anybody talk you out of that and tell you you're an idiot because you're staying home with your baby. No, don't allow that.

Scott Rae: Well, I can see two things. When we had young children, I mean, we had three under the age of five and we went years without getting a full night's sleep.

Jennifer Morse: That's right.

Scott Rae: We finally quit whining about it because it was par for the course.

Jennifer Morse: That's right. No one wants to hear it. No other parent wants to hear sleep deprivation.

Scott Rae: But we realized that we sort of viewed this often as just being in survival mode. And man, if we get them out of diapers, we'll be home free. It turned out that wasn't true at all. But I think there are a lot of young families that sort of look at those first two or three years as if I can just survive it. And so what would you say to someone who looks at it like that? Yeah, they need to survive it. That's true. But there's a lot of really important stuff going on during those years.

Jennifer Morse: That's exactly right. And I will tell you a funny story about when this book was published. It was published by Spence Publishing, which the company is no longer in existence. And the editor of that, the guy who edited it, was a guy called Mitch Muncie, who is still out and about doing various nonprofit development kinds of things. And he would come home from work after working on this book and say to his wife oh, I love you so much, I'm so grateful for all you're doing for our family. And she looked at him and said, I don't know what this book is that you're working on, but I really like this book.

So I would say just enter into it, enter into it, revel in it. And that's, I think, part of the tax that careerism has placed on women. Is that we think well, the right thing to do is to get back to work and not miss a beat and not let motherhood affect my career. That's crazy. That is crazy. And that's why I gave, I mean, I finally had to give it up. Enjoy your kids, enjoy them, and you won't regret it.

Scott Rae: And I think the recognition that from the very start you are building into them this notion that the world's a safe place.

Jennifer Morse: That's right.

Scott Rae: That people can be trusted.

Jennifer Morse: That's right, and that they matter.

Scott Rae: And that they're important.

Jennifer Morse: That they matter. And that's how God wants us to feel. Each and every one of us matters tremendously to God. He made us, he made us as an act of pure love. He redeemed us as an act of pure love. He did all of that out of love for us, and he created the world such that he wants our participation in love. He could have made each person as an adult. We could have all started off that way, but that's not what he did. He made it so everybody starts out helpless. I think this is something we need to meditate on. It's one of those mysteries of the faith that you can ponder for a lifetime and never get to the bottom of it.

Scott Rae: So part of what you're arguing, I think, is the sort of the reverse, The Beatles put it that money can't buy me love. But it sounds like what you're suggesting is that love in infancy is one of the necessary things to pave the road for a person's prosperity overall.

Jennifer Morse: Well, that's true.

Scott Rae: Is that true?

Jennifer Morse: That's partly true, yes, that having a solid foundation in your family life certainly enhances your future earning ability. Now there I am sounding like a social science person, not like a mom.

Scott Rae: Oh, no that's [crosstalk].

Jennifer Morse: And that's certainly true. The correlation is very strong, Scott. And in fact I would go even further and say that the love between your parents and the love of your parents for you, that is the foundation of the development of the personality. Every person's personality development is built upon love. Your parents love for you, your parents love for each other, which you can see by looking at how family breakdown affects child development in all kinds of ways. That's a profound experience to have your parents reject each other or never be bonded to each other.

Scott Rae: So spell out a little bit further the impact of parents loving each other on the child's sense of trust and safety in the world.

Jennifer Morse: So I will tell you, in Love and Economics, I hadn't gotten that figured out yet. In Love and Economics, I was trying to tell the economists, look, contract is not enough because babies can't be contracting parties. So we have to treat them differently than like they were contract. And also, you can't think of marriage as a contract cause it's more than that. So that was kind of as far as I got in Love and Economics.

But in the years since then, it's just become really clear that when parents love one another, that that's the foundation. If you think about just the physicality of where babies come from, we're brought into being by an act of love. That's God's deal. That's God's plan. Is it an act of human love brings forth new life. And every, I would say, and at the Ruth Institute we say, every human being has the birthright of being born as a result of an act of love. And I know you're concerned about bioethics issues and so on and so forth [crosstalk], the same sort of thing. But I wasn't thinking about that in 2001 and trust me.

But what you can see is that every step you take away from... We say that mom and dad married to each other for a lifetime is the gold standard for child development and for child outcomes. And every step you take away from that kind of permanence, you can see harm to the child. So if it's a further step and it's a more profound or earlier step, it's tougher on the child.

But I would go even further than that and say that the issue isn't simply child outcomes, that they don't do as well in school or whatever. The issue is an issue of justice to the child. The child's access to both of their parents, the child's understanding of their identity, of who they are. Every time a married couple divorces and then remarries, that's very disruptive to a child's sense of identity, very disruptive. We have no idea the chances we're taking and the way we're scrambling somebody's social development by continuous divorce and remarriage. It kind of makes you think that Jesus knew what he was talking about back in Matthew 19.

Scott Rae: What a concept.

Jennifer Morse: The son of God knew what he was talking about. Who would've thought that? Anyway.

Scott Rae: So the idea that children are resilient from [crosstalk].

Jennifer Morse: Bologna, bologna. That's the number one lie of the sexual revolution. That's the lie adults tell themselves so that they can do what they want. Because if all sex was was a, a relationship between two consenting adults, and that's what we all want it to be, that's what the whole culture wants to be, just two consenting adults. If that's all it is, well then we get to do anything we want. But if this third party keeps popping up and this third party has legitimate demands on us, well then we've got constraints. We don't like constraints. No, no, no, no. So we either kill the baby, that's what abortion is all about, or we say it doesn't matter. The child will be fine. It'll be fine.

Me as an adult, I'm a delicate flower. If I don't have my sexual satisfaction and my relationship needs met, I'm going to go to pieces. But that two year old, no problem, they'll be fine. That's what we're doing.

Scott Rae: Isn't it ironic?

Jennifer Morse: You could say. You see, the thing is the child, the two parents are half of who the child is. And so when mom says I'm divorcing your dad, I still love you, but I don't love your dad anymore, your dad and I don't love each other anymore, that makes no sense from the child's perspective because you're saying you love me but you don't love half of who I am? That doesn't add up mom. But of course a five year old can't articulate that so they're left alone to try to deal with that. I think that's why you see all the bad outcomes for the kids, because we just left them in this sort of puddle that makes no sense and they're on their own trying to figure it out.

Scott Rae: Now, Jennifer, you maintain that many of the virtues necessary for flourishing in our economic system, part of the virtues that are learned within those first few years of life at home. You've mentioned safety, trust, security, that you matter. What are some of the other virtues that are necessary of economic flourishing that kids pick up at home?

Jennifer Morse: Well, self control. You don't just grab whatever you see that you want. Reciprocity. Now, economists make a lot out of reciprocity. Everything's exchange. But that's in a sense one of the more superficial forms of reciprocity when you get right down to it. So the ability to give and take is extremely important. That's what the economy is, is people giving and taking and doing what they say they're going to do.

Scott Rae: So promise keeping?

Jennifer Morse: Promise keeping, absolutely. Promise keeping, doing what you say you're going to do truth, basic truthfulness, follow through. A lot of those things are learned inside the family. And like I said before, the whole conscious development is very fascinating, I think. That was one of the most fascinating things that we learned about child development. Because really, you don't want to be doing rewards and punishments. You don't really want the world to be based completely on incentives. You want most people, most of the time to do the right thing because it just wouldn't enter their mind to do the wrong thing. That's what you really are going for.

Scott Rae: And I think sometimes we forget that flourishing economies are actually based on, or premised on, the participants having reasonably well developed conscience.

Jennifer Morse: Exactly. That's exactly right.

Scott Rae: And that if they don't, you get some of the aberrations that we've seen in other parts of the world. So here's my other question. What happens, if those virtues aren't learned at home for whatever reason, what happens?

Jennifer Morse: Well, in the extreme case, if a child literally has no conscience, it's very hard to install one after the fact. You see that if you look at something like juvenile justice. What happens to kids who end up in the juvenile justice system? Well, it's really expensive to take care of them. And when you're done taking care of them, maybe you've brought them up to normal level functioning. Maybe you have overcome the deficit that they started off with. But you're investing a lot just to break even kind of a thing.

So one time I looked it up, Scott, this has been, it's probably 10 years ago from these numbers. But for a child to be in the California Youth Authority for a year, it was at that time about $48,000 a year. You could send a child to, the taxpayer spent at Berkeley $16,000 a year. So at the end of the year at Berkeley, or four years at Berkeley, you've got a PhD or something. You've got somebody who's really capable of contributing and has really learned a lot and so on and so forth. At the end of a year in California Youth Authority, maybe you're breaking, even if you're lucky and maybe not. Maybe you've taken an ax murder and turned them into a car thief. It's just a whole different scale of what counts as progress at that point.

Scott Rae: And you've maintained throughout the book that divorce is really tough on a kid's ability to develop those virtues.

Jennifer Morse: Yes. I do talk about divorce in this first book I talk about single parenthood. I also talked about too much daycare. Back in 2001 I was concerned about too much daycare and that seems almost silly. It seems almost quaint now to be worried about that in the face of all the other.

Scott Rae: You referred to that as the institutionalizing of childhood.

Jennifer Morse: That's right. That's right. That's exactly what it is. Because it takes away the personal nature of the bond and of the care, and not all children do well in daycare. That's a fact. I was socialized into my whole educational plan with the idea that daycare is the thing to do. It'll be fine. The kids are resilient, they'll be fine if you put them in there. They can be in daycare for as long as you are at work, it'll be fine. And some kids get away with it, but not all of them do.

And so in the years since I've lots of talks to college students and law students and things, and I tell them you guys, you cannot build your whole life around the idea that all of your kids will do fine in daycare because maybe they won't. And you don't want to be needing your income to pay your mortgage when really somebody needs to stay home with junior who is having temper tantrums at age four. That's part of what it means to be a parent, is that you have to be available to deal with those things. And the whole institutional concept doesn't really allow for that.

Scott Rae: Now, you seem in the book, and I think in your other work too that I've picked up, you seem particularly troubled by the growth in the number of kids being raised without dads today. Why is that and what is it the dads do that moms can't?

Jennifer Morse: Well, this is obviously a very important question. I think that if you look at the development of the child in a stable, loving family, what happens? What's the natural course of that? The natural course of it is that mom is there in the early days and there's nothing equal about any of it. You just got to get the equality program out of your head. Because the baby wants mommy and mommy wants the baby. There's a bond and there's a thing going on between them that's profound.

But the older the child gets, the less it needs to be mom and the more the father's role comes into its own, because the father's now kind of escorting the child out the door. And here's how you manage the world. And yep, you scraped your knee, but you know you're going to be fine. So it's more of of a posture that mothers and fathers have a tendency to have. You don't want to say all moms do this or all dads do that. That's not the point.

Scott Rae: Yeah, I understand.

Jennifer Morse: But there is something about the masculine presence that he doesn't have to do that much. I mean, honestly the dad voice can calm the whole household with just a few words and doggone it, it seems unfair when you're the mom and you've been struggling to get them to all calm down and dad just walks through the door and everybody's silent. It's not fair, but it is reality. It is reality, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Scott Rae: So in view of how important dads are, what do you say to the single mom who's a widow, for example, who's trying to do the best she can after her husband's died? Or maybe she was married to a guy who walked out on her, or somebody like that? Or go to the stay at home dad.

Jennifer Morse: See, here's the thing. Here's the thing. You brought up this question of fatherlessness, but I think in the years since I've written this book, I've realized that if you're not careful, the term fatherlessness covers way too many situations. So if you're fatherless because your dad died, that's a whole different thing than if you're fatherless because your dad walked out or your fatherless because your mom had to throw him out because he was terrible guy. Or he's a sperm donor that it's [crosstalk].

Scott Rae: You never knew.

Jennifer Morse: It's complete, those are very different situations. And so fatherless, actually nobody's really fatherless. Everybody has a mother and a father. So sometimes I'm inclined to say unmarried parents, because that's very different from the widowed situation. When a father dies, his photos will be on the wall. He's still part of the family in memory. His memory is a cherished part of the family. That's completely different from mom kicking him out and tearing all the photos out of the photo album. I mean, I've heard of people doing that. And sometimes because he's so terrible and sometimes because she's come unglued. From the child's perspective, you think that's not different? Of course it's hugely different.

Scott Rae: That's a big difference.

Jennifer Morse: It's huge, yeah.

Scott Rae: There's so much to talk about here.

Jennifer Morse: Oh, well thank you. I'm glad you like the book Scott.

Scott Rae: Oh, it was just great. Let me ask you one last question. You argue in the book that government has taken over a lot of the functions of the family. What do you mean by that? Give me an example or two and what's the implication of that?

Jennifer Morse: So yes, and when I wrote this book, I was closer to my libertarian free market days. And so I was trying to explain to my economist friends that the government taking over this function is not a good thing. I had hoped that my free market buddies would go oh yeah, we don't like the government delivering the mail. We should not allow the government to be feeding children. But I couldn't quite get through to a lot of those fellows.

But anyway, among the things that the government has taken over, simply public schools, mandatory state, sponsored day in, day out schooling. That's not normal in the course of human history. Okay, set that aside. We all accept that we kids are supposed to leave the home every day and go to school with other children their age and not be with their families. Okay, we accept that. But does the government really have to feed them? Do you really have to say free breakfast for every child regardless of income? These are the kinds of proposals that you hear and it's always couched in terms of well, the children need their nutrition and we leave it to chance, they won't be fed.

But what you do, the cost of doing that is that the parents bonding that takes place over food, that's taken away. The responsibility, the personal development that takes place because you have to take care of your child, you have to grow up and rise to the occasion, that's being taken away from people. So there are little things and there big things, I think, that the state has taken over and I just think we have to understand that parents are not just delivering calories to the body and keeping the body warm and making sure that kids are medicated. Parents are also building a relationship with the child. The government simply can't do that.

Scott Rae: Okay, that's helpful. Well, let me throw, I said that one last one but I've got one more last question. What do you say to the family that says we have to have two incomes to make it? We'll never stay afloat financially if we don't have both of us, both parents working?

Jennifer Morse: I can't speak to each person's situation, because there are lots. It could be true, I don't know. But what I would say to them, if that's really true, is to, in your mind at least, make the priority the family. Maybe you can't spend the time that you want to, but in your mind when you're at work, think about I'm working for the sake of my family. I'm not working for my ego. I'm not working for my career, I'm not working for my employer, I'm working for my family.

I think one thing that happens to people is as you allow that thought to percolate, it changes what you choose to do and not do. And your idea of what you need changes. And maybe we could move to a smaller house and maybe we could let the car go another couple of years before we replace it and so on. So I wouldn't presume to tell people oh, you're doing the wrong thing. I wouldn't presume. And every family is different and so on. But I would say to everybody, make your family your priority.

Scott Rae: I think that's a very appropriate place to stop here with that. So Jennifer, thank you so much for just, there's so much wisdom, there's so much insight. And it's not just at the theoretical dimension, it's stuff that you've lived personally just from your own family experience and family background from raising the kids that God gave you. So this has been just so insightful. So I want to recommend to our listeners the book Love and Economics. It's great stuff. It's available through the Ruth Institute website. Just Google the Ruth Institute. It will be the first thing that pops out and you can order it. It's great. It's great stuff and really insightful stuff. I think we've got a lot more to talk about and we'll have to do that again on another time. So thanks for being with us.

Jennifer Morse: Thank you for having me.

Scott Rae: This has been an episode of the podcast, Think Biblically, Conversations on Faith and Culture. To learn more about us and today's guest, Dr. Jennifer Morris, and to find more episodes, go to That's

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