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Tuesday, March 27, 2012


Wednesday's print column

Who would have ever imagined that there was another side to the Trayvon Martin story?

Screen shot 2012-03-27 at 8.09.24 PMYou know, the story of the wispy African-American lad — he looks to be about 12 years old in the widely circulated, undated family photo (right)— sauntering home through a subdivision carrying nothing but a can of iced tea, Skittles and a cellphone, when hulking neighborhood vigilante George Zimmerman decided to stalk and kill him because he was black? Of how the racist local police then gave Zimmerman a pass based on his flimsy claim of self-defense?

Certainly not all the cable TV hucksters, activists and protesters who latched on to this manifestly incomplete yet deeply troubling narrative and turned Martin, 17, into a martyr even as they demanded that Zimmerman, 28, be arrested and charged with his murder.

Their response to what they saw as a snap judgment — the decision by the Sanford, Fla., police to release Zimmerman without charging him— was a rush to judgment, convicting Zimmerman of a terrible crime before even hearing his side of the story.

And, yes, it now seems he has one.

It was maddeningly slow to get out. This week, more than a month after the Feb. 26 incident, we’re finally learning what Zimmerman, his friends and disinterested witnesses have said about the events of that night.

Zimmerman’s story, as first reported by the Orlando Sentinel and later confirmed by Sanford police, is that he was headed to the grocery store in his SUV when he saw a young man he identified as a “real suspicious guy” to a 911 dispatcher.

Was it Martin’s race? Zimmerman mentioned it only when asked by the dispatcher. His attire, the now-famous hoodie? His pace? “He’s just walking around, looking about,” Zimmerman told the dispatcher.

Zimmerman decided to follow Martin on foot, as the 911 recording makes clear. (see the police reports and find a link to the transcript here)

“We don’t need you to do that,” the dispatcher said.

“OK,” Zimmerman replied.

Zimmerman says he then broke off his pursuit and headed back to his vehicle. At that point, Martin returned to confront him, Zimmerman says. Martin stood 6 feet tall and weighed 160 pounds; Zimmerman was three inches shorter but at least 40 pounds heavier.

Zimmerman claims Martin threw the first blow — a punch to the nose — and that he, Zimmerman, repeatedly called for help while Martin was pummeling him on the ground.

Those calls for help are heard on 911 calls from neighbors, but Martin’s family insists it’s Martin calling for help, not Zimmerman. And Martin’s girlfriend, who was on the phone with him at the time, says she heard Zimmerman start the confrontation.

Either way, Zimmerman ended up bleeding from the nose and from a wound in the back of his head, and Martin ended up dead on the ground from a shot Zimmerman told police he fired.

If Zimmerman is telling the truth — as police evidently believe and as some witnesses reportedly confirm — this isn’t even a “stand your ground” case. It’s a straight-up case of self-defense, no matter how unwise or bigoted Zimmerman may have been in reporting Martin to police and leaving his vehicle to begin pursuing him.

Screen shot 2012-03-27 at 11.52.10 PMIf Zimmerman is lying — if he ignored the 911 dispatcher, chased Martin down and shot him in cold blood, as the Al Sharpton crowd seems to believe — it’s murder one.

“Common sense” tells different people different things. But justice is not about intuition. It’s about evidence and proof beyond a reasonable doubt, neither of which exists here, at least so far.

For nearly 20 years in this column, I’ve regularly slammed law enforcement officials for having tunnel vision and closed minds, particularly in high-profile cases. I’ve taken them to task for being damnably stubborn when new evidence surfaces that challenges the narratives to which they’ve committed themselves, narratives that too often end up with ethnic minorities as the villains.

But the unofficial judges in the court of public opinion deserve similar criticism. Consider, for example, the case of Richard Jewell, tried and convicted by the masses of setting off a bomb at the Atlanta Olympic Games though he had nothing to do with the crime; the case of the Duke lacrosse team, prematurely convicted in the media of gang rape; or the case of John and Patsy Ramsey, widely reviled after their daughter JonBenet was murdered.

Consider any number of other cases where we all just knew the outrageous truth until suddenly — gulp — we didn’t anymore. With apologies to those whose lives we left in ruins.

Yes, the Trayvon Martin case still demands more answers. But when those answers come, fairness demands that we listen to them.


What do you think really happened? I asked readers to make their best guess and offered one of my own here. Clarence Page's Wednesday column -- Why race still matters in America-- Uproar surrounding the death of Trayvon Martin shows why it is so hard to discuss racial issues -- also deals with this subject.



The statements that are leaking out from Zimmerman’s camp do not ring true. He was talking on his cell phone to 911 just moments before the confrontation took place, but he says he was reaching for his "phone" when Trayvon, without warning, attacked him. The more likely scenario was that he had his cell phone in his hand while he hunted for Trayvon. After all, he told the police to call him so he could tell them where to find him. Zimmerman wouldn’t have put his cell phone into his pocket; he would have had it in his hand, ready, because he was expecting a call back from the police.

· Zimmerman “reached” for something to be sure, he went to draw his gun to prevent "these a**holes" from getting away. Trayvon most likely attacked Zimmerman when he saw the gun. Trayvon had only a few choices when this stalker pulled a gun on him: plead for his life, run away (and probably be shot in the back), or fight. Zimmerman probably was dreaming of the accolades he would receive from the police for catching a “bad guy” and was surprised to find himself on the ground….after all, he was the “tough” guy with the gun, it shouldn’t be that way. Trayvon was obviously scared and he was fighting for his life so he probably was winning the fight as the witness said....that is, until Zimmerman shot him dead.

After pronouncing the person as an "a**hole" criminal who always gets away, Zimmerman decided that this one definately wasn't getting away. How would he do that? By force. What force did he have? His gun.

Any encounter that took place was pre-empted by George Zimmerman's suspicious and zealously provocative behavior! The fact is Trayvon Martin would be alive today if George Zimmerman had minded his own business instead of instigating an incident !

Zimmerman had a gun and Martin did not. In those circumstances Martin was allowed to use any force he felt necessary to defend himself. A broken nose is probably the least I would if I was fighting for my life.

Wow James, maybe you should let police in on your eye-witness account of the events...Or maybe, since you weren't there you shouldn't speculate on "what happened" and let the people investigating the situation do their job.

Whatever the facts, they are now going before more sober eyes. The Sanford PD has not covered itself in glory up to this point. Why are they leaking the Zimmerman account?

Yes James Nicos.....you know exactly what happened and the eyewitness is just making it up out of thin air. Try to keep you emotions in check and focus on the facts at hand. What you want to believe because of some deep seated and unresolved power/control issue is irrelevant to this case.

Given that Martin was 17 years old, he has been raised in a culture much more acutely aware of "stranger danger", and no doubt has seen some discussion of it in school and from his parents.
Additionally, he was a young black man, so it is likely that if he hadn't been harrassed racially in the past, he at least was well aware of the threat which sadly remains here in 2012.
Combine those factors with the young man seeing first an unmarked SUV following him, and then the driver, a complete stranger, getting out and following him for at least a few moments, and I cannot see how Martin WOULDN'T feel compelled to confront Zimmerman. He had absolutely no idea what was on this stranger's mind.

Certainly I'll wait until a thorough investigation is completed to formulate my final opionion, but the bottom line is that had neighborhood watch "captain" Zimmerman not WAY overstepped his authority and gotten out of his vehicle, Trayvon Martin would be alive today. And even if he killed Martin in self-defense, he's going to have to live with the knowledge that had he followed just the most fundamental rules of neighborhood watches, to WATCH, he would not have ended a human life.

this all sounds like b.s to me y would u shoot at a 12yr old being 26 yourself zimmerman could off solved it a different way

This is unconscionable, I'm afraid for my autistic son to wear a hoodie now

Has anyone looked into that area? The crime rate is very high. I'm wondering if his comments aren't aimed more towards that. That kind of crime rate would put a lot of people on edge.

Drea...the kid wasn't 12!!!

James Nicos, That wasn't biased at all, there was only several things I have some problems with...
1. A witness reports seeing a man in a red shirt (Zimmerman) screaming for help while Trayvon Martin was on top of him
2. Why would you keep your cell phone in your hand when you're trying to apprehend a criminal? That doesn't make any sense
3. Zimmerman is a member of the neighborhood watch association and in the past year has apprehended one criminal and helped with the arrest of three others, in his neighborhood in the past year there has been one shooting, nine burglaries, and eight other thefts
4. If according to you Zimmerman threatened Trayvon with his pistol (which is illegal), all of George Zimmerman friends have reported that since the incident he has been treated for insomnia, depression, and post-traumatic stress disorder, so if Zimmerman raised his gun to Trayvon to initiate the confrontation, if Martin did plead for his life he would have been alive today to tell his story because there is no evidence that he could callously kill anyone, but if he chose to fight against a man holding him at gunpoint shouldn't his first reaction would be to reach for the gun or at least try to disarm him instead of breaking Zimmerman's nose and proceeding to smash his head into the sidewalk all the while the man still has a gun in his hand.

I am not trying to say that it is perfectly alright to kill teenagers, all I am saying is that we have a 5'9" 200 lb 28 year old, who has a history of protecting his neighborhood, and we have a 6'2" 160 lb 17 year old, who is walking through a neighborhood that he does not live in, who at the time was suspended from his high school for obviously something pretty obscene and that it says something about our society that we even after all of those facts that the american public is quicker to hop on the boat of the black kid than the man who had (according to all the information out now) every right to defend himself.

People. When you punch someone in the face, you can expect a retaliation. But when you start bashing one's head against a curb, you can NOW expect them to reach for the gun and send you Home, wherever that may be.

I agree with several statements above, the first being that this kid would be scared to death of a man with a gun following him. I can only imagine the fear I would have and even officers are trained to acknowledge that people backed into a corner are unpredictable. Zimmerman was no officer and had no authorized title therefore no right to stalk this kid with a gun. I am constantly reminding my children of the stranger dangers and to fight, yell, kick scream because to not be abducted at all is the only way to assure your safety! Remember the little girl who was almost abducted in walmart recently? This is what she did and her would be abductor gave up and left her.
I think many can call it a speculation, but the fact that George verbally entertained the notion that "they all get away" is saying more than they get away. The young man was walking in the rain talking on a cell phone, what is so suspicious about that? There is no doubt that had Zimmerman let the police do their job and investigate what he thought was suspicious, this would not have happened. I also agree that Zimmerman had no intentions of ceasing his own pursuit or he could have simply waited by the mailboxes as he originally agreed but then he changed his mind and didnt even want to give his own address to the police. He said he would call them and let them know where he was because he could not say where he would be at the time they arrived but he knew he was going to be following "his" suspect. Also heard on an interview that Zimmerman has called 911 49 times in the last year! Seems like he took his neighborhood watch thing a little too serious.

The cute pictures of Trayvon at age 12 have been misleading.

Trayvon was in fact a 6 ft, muscular 17 year old who had been suspended multiple times from school. I could easily imagine him becoming furious by George Zimmerman approaching on foot to ask him why he was in the neighborhood.

I could also see him wanting to sound tough while on the phone with his girlfriend. After all, he hadn't done anything wrong. But he might have mouthed off, and the two then exchanged words. The shorter, fatter George Zimmerman may have actually decided that he should get back into his vehicle as this kid was tougher than he had anticipated and was in fact standing up to him. Trayvon then sensed the fear and decided to keep the altercation brewing (as young men often do). This link tells a less discussed side of this story as well:


Zimmerman pursued without any authority or just cause.He shot and killed Martin who was unarmed. The bottom line is there is no excuse for not arresting him. It is up to the court to weigh the evidence and find reasonable doubt, not the police. Unfortunately, it is not only Zimmerman who is racist, but the criminal justice system of Sanford, the governor and the state of Florida and the US federal executive branch all of whom could execute an arrest. Our governments true colors are exposed. It's just another black boy dead to them whether on the street or in Iraq.

drea... Trayvon was not 12; he was 17; he was also not this small/skinny kid they keep putting on the screen. His family has given the media a very dated picture of him to make people think "how could this young boy possibly cause harm to this older man?" It's very calculated, and most of the media doesn't even let people know that....

For about a week - I've been watching all these reports and have thought "how could this 12 year old cause some threat to this adult?"... Now that I know that he was 17; and much larger than the picture we're being shown - well.... I believe this is being used for political gain now.... Just like almost everything else.

Where is the evidence? Where is the gun? How many shots fired? Are there shells? Where are the police? Is there justice? Are all gone?

ZORN REPLY -- I think the audio from the various 911 calls tells us only one shot was fired. I don't know the relevance of the shell casings, as there is no dispute about which weapon was used and who used it.

As a concealed handgun license carrier , I sadly believe Zimmerman ultimately did the right thing by shooting to kill. Our litigious society has made injured assailants victims. Zimmerman would no doubt be sued in civil court and probably lose. Now he will not be tried in the penal or civil system. He has been found guilty in the court of public opinion which is really unfortunate for him. But he has to live with his actions and decisions.

He killed a innocent kid period.

To amy ...apprehend a criminal huh so when did this boy become a criminal ohh wait he was black n was wearing a hoodie i forgot# onetrackmindedracists

um.. Trayvon's dad said to the police that the screaming for help wasn't his son's voice. The neighborhood had a surge of crime recently and has a high crime rate. The original witness before all hell broke loose in this case said that Zimmerman was getting pounded with Trayvon on top of him. Trayvon is not 12 like the picture portrays. Trayvon was visiting his dad because he was suspended for 10 days, that must be something pretty serious.

Click on the links, the facts check out.

What is maddening is that people are jumping to conclusions without the facts. Everybody is so sure it's a race issue without hearing both sides of the story. The neighborhood is 49% white, Zimmerman's neighbor and friend was black, so it's not like Zimmerman hadn't seen black people in the neighborhood before. The injustice here is that a young boy was killed, which is sad regardless of race.

Zimmerman has not been able to tell his side of the story. Everybody's been jumping to conclusions. Of course the media can't just report the facts. They have to skew everything, unfortunately for the worst, because they have their own agendas.

One less criminal to worry about.

Zimmerman- 1 , Criminal -0

I think that the media and the blacks blew this story way out of proportion because they thought it was a white on black murder!
They painted a pretty picture posting Zimmerman's mug shot along side with martins picture that looks to be 4 to 5 years old in his football outfit.
They keep emphasizing that he had skittles on him as if to say that all kids who eat skittles are good kids.
The facts will surface and decisions will be made.
I'm so sick of racism being only whites against blacks. Get over yourselves, get a job, clean up your neighborhoods, father your children and stop having 4, 5, 6 babies with 4, 5 and 6 different men!

I don't think you should have included the Ramseys in your list of those falsely accused.
First, JonBenet Ramsey wasn't murdered, she was most likely killed accidentally by her then 10 year old brother. That's why Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note with the demand for $119,000, which happened to be the exact amount of John Ramsey's bonus that year. The note was in her handwriting on paper in their house.
They were just trying to coverup & save their son from the criminal justice system. Patsy was the problem, with her obsession to make her daughter Miss America. Patsy had been a runner-up years before. The son was jealous of his little sister & for good reasons.
If you read Lawrence Schiller's book, "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town", there are drawings of the house & that 6 year old girl had the biggest bedroom in the house. It even had a "verandah".
The son was obviously mad at being #2 & killed her in a jealous rage.
10 year olds are jailed in this country for that crime, no one knows really what to do with them, so the parents conspired in an attempt to save him. They just didn't know that cable TV would cover this 24/7 because at Xmas time, there's not much on TV then & she was a cute little blonde, Nancy Grace's favorite subject.
It became a perfect media storm & all hell broke loose & they just couldn't admit the truth, it would have destroyed the 10 year old!

@ Roberto: "Where is the gun? "

The police have it.

Trayvon Martin was visiting his family -- his father's fiance. It was the day of the NBA All-Star Game. He went out to the store to get candy and a drink. He had every right to be there and to look around. Zimmerman decided he looked suspicious. He called the police, but did not do as they advised. Trayvon said on the phone to his girlfriend, that he didn't know why this strange man was following him. The 911 tapes also confirmed that Zimmerman said that these assholes always get away. Whatever happened at Trayvon's school (we don't know, and as a highschool teacher, I know that a suspension is not necessarily for something serious) has nothing to do with this incident. Trayvon was not a criminal and was not armed. He had a right to defend himself. Maybe he did hit Zimmerman, but, if so, it was Zimmerman who started the incident by following and confronting him. Zimmerman had the power -- a gun -- and was not a policeman. Unfortunately, many policemen shoot to kill before investigating the true situation, so this incident has more relevance than just Trayvon's tragedy. That's why it is an important case. As for an investigation, the police were ready to close the case. If it hadn't been for the parents raising questions, there would be no further investigation. All this speculation about Trayvon's character is just that, speculation. And, it appears to me that many of the commenters don't know much about teenagers, especially black males. They call Trayvon a "thug." There is no evidence of this. Zimmerman may not consider himself a racist, and maybe he is not, but many people become uneasy when they see a teenage black male they don't know. But, hopefully, if that is the case, they don't go out of their way to pick a fight. Remember, Trayvon, if he tried to defend himself, did so AFTER Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. And, again, the police did a very poor job of investigating and considering all the evidence. And after all this time, much of the evidence was probably destroyed. I only hope that some lessons will be learned from this situation, and Trayvon will not have died in vain.

The kid had no record. He was a decent kid. Zimmerman.....an armed adult ....... followed, hunted down and killed an innocent kid. He was 17 years old. He was doing nothing wrong. He was standing under an awning, talking on his cell to his girlfriend, minding his own business.

All you people in the comments that are so proud of Zimmerman.....tell me...would you be ok with an armed adult man following and hunting your kid down? I'll be waiting for an answer.

I am white and you Zimmerman fans make me sick.

It's hard to take the Sanford Police Department seriously when they have done such a deplorable job handling this case. Oh look now, a month after Trayvon's murder all this new evidence comes to light that affirms their actions. What a great coincidence for them!

I'd be more upset by all this, but I am tempered in knowing that within my lifetime, most of Florida will be underwater.

ZORN REPLY -- It's not obvious to me that the Sanford Police Dept. did anything terribly wrong here. Not checking Martin's cell phone to see if he'd recently made any calls looks like an error and I don't know if they failed to interview any key witnesses in a timely fashion. As noted, I find it hard to disagree with the conclusion that there wasn't probable cause to file charges against ZImmerman. You can't file charges against someone because you have a theory they might be guilty. You need evidence. Then, down the line, you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. These are high standards.

This article has a few misconceptions about the law. Self-defense allows you to use force commensurate with that being used against you, and usually only if running away or leaving the conflict is absolutely not an option. That is why the stand your ground law is so controversial, it does away with the running away requirement. Therefore, you would need a lot more information about the facts before you could say this is anywhere close to a self-defense case. Did Zimmerman brandish the gun at all before the "first blow"? That would make him the initiator and automatically dissolve any self-defense claim. Did Zimmerman have the option/ability to run away after the "first blow" before the "pummelling"? If so, then, again, a self-defense claim is not available, though stand your ground probably would still be applicable. Was the "pummelling" equivalent to use of deadly force? If not, then self defense would not be applicable because you cannot counter non-deadly force with deadly force, but stand your ground may allow it. Thus, it is either ignorance of the law to state that accepting Zimmerman's version of events as discussed in this article would amount to self-defense or shoddy reporting in not relating these vital piece of information. Moreover, self-defense and stand your ground are both affirmative defenses, meaning that it is up to the defendant to prove these claims to a jury (if it were to get to that point). Therefore, as there clearly is probable cause for an arrest here (given that Zimmerman admitted to shooting Martin), there would have to be incredibly strong evidence clear to the arresting officers that this really was self-defense or stand your ground case for them to reasonably not arrest Zimmerman. This, of course, could absolutely be the case. However, the story provided in this article by no means satisfies that burden. It is important to remember that this is not a simple case of innocent until proven guilty. The default setting under the justice system here is that Zimmerman is guilty of murder, he intentionally shot Martin, that is absolutely undisputed. Self-defense and stand your ground are affirmative defenses which Zimmerman must prove. This is because these types of laws are the only time in society where civilians are allowed to take another citizen's life without repercussion. Even though Zimmerman may very well be the true victim in this case, our society has long ago determined that the right to life is fundamental, and cannot be taken without reprisal so easily as by simply telling a story of self-defense, evidence must back it up. This is the rare case where society jumping to the conclusion of guilt is in line with the course of the criminal justice system. As unfair as one might think it is, Zimmerman must exonerate himself with his story. This is true because Martin is now unable to tell his.

ZORN REPLY -- When you write , "Was the pummelling equivalent to use of deadly force? If not, then self defense would not be applicable because you cannot counter non-deadly force with deadly force," I believe you are wrong as a matter of law. Typical wording of the self defense laws allows use of deadly force in self-defense if you believe it necessary for self-protection from death, serious physical injury, etc. In Florida, from state web site, "Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm." I'd say if someone is punching you and on top of you and driving your head into the ground, you have a reasonable fear of serious bodily harm.

First I want the Martin family to know that I pray for them and the loss of a precious gift their son. No matter how old he was he was their child and because of someones split decision he is no longer here. Next I don't need to remind anyone that racism is alive and well here in America every hour of every day. It's unfortunate of how many Americans get to view it. Either by news or gossip or god forbid first hand. I am a biracial parent raising a biracial son who in my eyes is America with all it's diversity but to some he is just another black teen. I could not bare the weight of losing him to something so trivial and sour. Right is right and wrong is wrong. What happened was not right. Regardless to who Zimmerman thought Treyvon was he had no justification to follow him. He should have called the police again if he felt his life was in danger or his community. He shoiuld have stayed on the phone til help arrived. He didn't need a gun for neighborhood watch in a gated community. If he felt that much pressure he should have been home with his family reporting what he saw. Why did he get off the phone with the police. In Chicago when the police arrive and they don't know who committed.the crime everybody goes to jail . What happened could have been prevented if he had let the police do their job. He in my eyes from all of what has been said is far from innocent. And we all know in America its not what you know but who you know and clearly he know the right.people that have kept this murderer out of jail. That child did not deserve what happened to him not his family to suffer such a loss because a grown man literally jumped the gun and provided the shot to his chest that killed him.

Wow all dis im readin is interested...but in my opionion zimmerman pulled out a gun on dis young man wen martin had no weapons if martin did have him on da as zimmerman cliams y didnt he use his hands was no need for any weapons...zimmerman is a neighborhood watch y is he carryin a weapon or y did he continue to follow him n if he was so concern of who martin was he couldve approached him in a diffrent matter n ask martin?....idk how flo law is but if its ok to kill innocent ppl den it should b ok if one of martins fam member kill zimmerman n get away wit it so while he took a life for no reason den y knt he b killed for a reason he took sum thing from his family dat knt b replaced leavin dem in pain n memories...it dnt matter how it went dwn if u put wat is sed together zimmerman was in da rong for pursin a situation he shouldve let da law deal wit he is guilty in my eyes he started ds who situation..

Had the kid committed a crime? Yes it seems he got in a fight with a man who was following him. Once again did he commit a crime? NO? HE'S NOW DEAD. HOW IS THAT RIGHT?

In the fight was he banging this man's head on a curb? Was it self defense? Would you kill someone who was trying to kill you, even if he was inocent of doing anything wrong? If you thought you were going to die you might. Maybe if they get rid of these gun laws allowing citizens to carry weapons, they start reporting rather then following and confronting people who have not committed a crime.

What ever happens here it seems as if someone who hadn't committed a crime is dead. THE LAW SEEMS TO SHARE SOME OF THE GUILT.

Martin's mom filed trademark applications for slogans containing her kids name.

Should be a help to her and her lawyer, through the greiving process.

Note to the attorneys: Good luck finding any impartial jurors in this case.

There are a lot of 'what if's" that cannot be answered. What we do know is that Zimmerman brought a hand gun to a fist fight.

All I know is that the mainstream media has done a horrible job covering this story. There is absolutely NO GOOD REASON why we should have been shown the boy's picture as a 12-yr old. NONE, NADA, ZILCH. Shame on his family for putting it out there, and shame on the media for disseminating it.

As other CoS poster can attest, I initally had Zimmerman pegged for murder-one. Now that the other side has come out, I'm leaning the other way (though I don't think Zimmerman is blameless).

And the fact we now have groups putting bounties out on Zimmerman is scary as hell.

just one teeny tiny question, did Traybon jump the fence to get in to the gated community?

Big FAIL on the part of mainstream media. They acted like internet bloggers in this case.

- Is this the last hurrah for Jackson and Sharpton? Their previous horse was the Duke lacrosse case. They both look out of place today, relics from another generation.

- Would the media have reacted the way it did if instead of a cute, good-looking 12 year old, it was a 17 year old with corn rows? Sad as it is, everyone knows the answer to this even though it should make absolutely no difference. Remember the Peterson woman who was killed by her husband? Same thing, the media was all over it because of how pretty she was.

- Why is the Chicago media not all over Rahm about the Chicago kids being killed? The media is afraid of Rahm at this point.

- The African American community looks bad by the reaction to this case versus the reaction to black on black violence. Not too many are willing say probably for fear of being called racist.

- Concealed carry, even if you support it, will contribute to cases like this. I doubt Zimmerman would have followed this kid if he didn't have the gun. He had gun-muscles, much more dangerous than beer-muscles. Even if he turns out innocent, he comes off as a cop wannabe.

@ Diane Bittner: He was staying in the community. And his name was Trayvon, not Traybon.

Tom - You state "Zimmerman had a gun and Martin did not. In those circumstances Martin was allowed to use any force he felt necessary to defend himself. A broken nose is probably the least I would if I was fighting for my life." According to all the reports that I have read, Zimmerman didn't brandish his weapon until after (in his account) he was on his back with Martin on top of him. If this is the case, physical evidence should be available to back this up. For example, if Martin is indeed on top of Zimmerman when the shot was fired, there should be some blood evidence to back that up (just not as clear cut as the evidence found on CSI).
And if Zimmerman did display his weapon and Martin still attacked him with enough force to break his nose and cause lacerations to the back of the head, what was he thinking?

Eric's first sentence says it all: "Who would have ever imagined there was another side..." That's exactly why this should go to a judge and jury -- people who can hear both sides (or at least Zimmerman's and the witnesses') and all the evidence in as fair and impartial a manner as possible. The whole outrage here is the lack of a day in court for either side.

ZORN REPLY -- In our system of justice, we don't charge and try someone because we're not sure what happened and we want to see what a jury thinks. We charge and try someone when we -- the prosecutors who represent the people -- believe to a moral certainty that there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt of his guilt.
The civil courts -- lawsuits-- are where we weigh opposing stories and decide which one we believe.

I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone when I read some of the comments.

One thing that puzzles me about the reaction to this case. I distinctly recall the President telling everyone to not jump to conclusions in the wake of the Ft. Hood shootings, with regard to the attack being a case of Islamic Terrorism. However, in this case, despite the far higher level of protests, why no call for the avoidance of jumping to conclusions in this case? To date, there is minimal evidence that there was any sort of racial intent in this case, yet you hear a lot of assertions that it was a clear case of racial profiling, including from a member of the US Congress.

He was not living in the Sanford community. He lived in Miami and had been sent to stay with his father's fiancee in Sanford while he was on suspension from school. He had been suspended from school in Miami for possession of a pot pipe and a plastic bag with pot residue in it. The newspaper from his hometown is reporting that this was the 3rd time the victim has been suspended from school. One of those other 2 times he possessed burglary tools and a bag of jewelry. The newspaper is also reporting that the victim's cousin was bragging about the victim attacking a bus driver just before he was sent to stay with his father's fiancee in Sanford. He was not a known resident of the gated community he had been sent to -- a community that had experienced several burglaries in the recent past.

They'll be able to see the steam coming out of Dienne's ears for miles after she reads Felbrown's last post.

Actually, the cops on the scene didn't believe Zimmerman's story, either. Investigator Chris Serino, the lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting...[but] was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman by the state attorney's office headed by Norman Wolfinger. ABC News has the full story here: http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3M1J-yXSRu

ZORN REPLY -- The story doesn't say WHY he felt the charges were justified. I hope that affidavit is made public.

Google Brian Dorian & also Gary Amaya. Anyone remember the so-called Honeybee Killer in NW Indiana in Oct 2010? Everyone had Dorian tried & convicted in their minds; then BAM! Amaya was killed in Dec 2010, and turns out to be the guilty guy. That was a real eye-opener to me. Never think you know it all.

ZORN REPLY -- Good point.

There is a missing piece to this puzzle. If Martin punched Zimmerman first, as Zimmerman claims, then what is the motive that Martin had? That is the part I still cannot figure out.
From what I have seen and heard, the two did not even know each other. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm a black teenager a bit older than Trayvon and if I come out of a convenience store in a neighbourhood i don't know/ live in and an adult is walking up to me, I'm gonna be a little on edge. I may not outwardly attack but the kid could be a little bit more aggressive than me. All I'm saying is, if you call the police, we're talking the law enforcement here, and they tell you don't follow the kid then you don't follow him. If you choose to ignore the police and engage then you can't expect the kid to not react cause who are you? are you the police? do you have a badge? do you have any right to be following anybody? No. George Zimmerman shouldn't be on some superhero vigilante bs anyway, I don't care if you're neighbourhood watch. Neighbourhood watch doesn't give you the right to engage anybody, it just means you are to WATCH out for suspicious behaviour not to squash it, which he did, he called the police and they said leave him alone, so you LEAVE HIM ALONE. Why is this even being discussed? He shot a teenager, he shouldn't be shooting anybody much less even thinking about single-handedly apprehending who he thinks are criminals. It's murder one, put him in jail.

--My 17 year old son wears hoodies. When my brothers call to ask what to get him for Xmass, I always suggest hoodies. He won't wear a coat in winter, so this seems the best way to keep him warm. My kid also has long hair. I wanted longer hair as a kid, but my father never let it get as long as I wanted it. So that's a battle I never fought with my son. I let him choose the hair length. What I don't want, is some vigilante running around my neighborhood with a gun in a holster, judging my son. Zimmerman is a nutjob, and I'm betting once proper questioning of the witnesses and he occur, an arrest will be made. But, to be on the safe side, keep this idiot out of my community.

Kudos to you, Eric, for a brave column. Race is still such a hot issue that some people are going to stereotype any opinion that does not fit with their point of view, even if that POV was not based on a full set of facts. This is almost a perfect storm of wildly divergent views on race duking it out. I like your approach of saying we should have all the facts, or at least wade through as much of the He Said, She Said as we can, before taking hardened stances. Call me old fashioned but I prefer facts to points of view. (That wasn't a setup but now I can't help thinking of the Talking Heads lyric -- "Facts all come with points of view / Facts won't do what I want them to").

I hope you wore you wore your asbestos clothes to work today.

@Qwerty 101:

"There is a missing piece to this puzzle. If Martin punched Zimmerman first, as Zimmerman claims, then what is the motive that Martin had? That is the part I still cannot figure out. From what I have seen and heard, the two did not even know each other. Please correct me if I'm wrong."

Well my take:

Martin's girlfriend reported that when he was on the phone with her he was complaining that there was a guy, presumably Zimmerman, watching him and there was a discussion of what he should do about it. It isn't a stretch to say he was probably nervous, felt stalked, wrongly suspected, and challenged in that steroid-poisoned way that some men think a look or being watched is cause for a physical confrontation. On the other side of the interaction, Zimmerman was probably having his own similarly paranoid, primitive reactions to a teenage stranger's presence. Situations like this are ripe for predator-prey or pecking order reactions. Either or both could have been in play depending on the specific people involved and the details of the situation, but there's a substantial subset of adolescents who can be over-reactive to being looked at in ways that are perceived as a challenge. If you're a guy, I don't think you had to grow up in an especially rough neighborhood to be on the receiving end of such a reaction on occasion. Where I grew up in New York, it was commonplace.

Once the internal switches for pecking order or fight-flight reactions are thrown, good judgment goes out the window. In that case, one doesn't need a sensible reason to punch someone in the nose.

Great, even-handed column, Eric.

@Mike Beane: Do the initials ADP mean anything to you?

To the folks sticking up for Zimmerman, do you want him watching your neighborhood? With the gun, of course.

I've noticed several instances of commenters saying that Zimmerman didn't have "the right" to follow or engage Martin. Engage is one of those words that could mean anything from speak with or shoot, so, for clarity's sake, if we're talking about following and speaking, Zimmerman did have the right to follow and engage Martin. There is a point when words, persistent following over time or physical intimidation become stalking or assault, but merely following or asking questions is not necessarily assault. Just ask a celebrity about how far paparazzi can go without being charged with a criminal offense.

On the other side of this situation, Martin had the right to ignore Zimmerman or tell him to get lost. Such is life that we sometimes have very unpleasant interactions with people without crimes having been committed on either side.

I only point this out because in assessing criminality of Zimmerman's actions, declaring that he :had no right" to watch, follow or speak with Martin conflates poor judgment with criminality.


ADP? Hint please?

So when Zimmerman said "f*k*ng coon" under his breath, he had no negative racial thoughts. Come on, really.

ZORN REPLY -- I've heard that snippet of tape a dozen times and it's not all that clear what he's saying. I suspect, however, that Zimmerman had profiled Martin based on his race. And if the evidence supports this shooting as unjustified, you might be able to get a hate-crime upward departure on it based on that or maybe even on that garbled passage of tape.

@Dr.X: College fraternity. Methinks Mr. Beane and I may be fraternity brothers. Maybe not, though.

My initial thoughts on this matter were that this smelled like voluntary manslaughter. Now, I'm not sure they have probable cause.

Considering that Martin was being pursued by an armed man, he had good reason to be worried. He initially tried to leave, which is more than is required by Stand Your Ground. If he had a gun and shot Z, or even if he seriously injured Z, he would have been justified under SYG law. And he had more reason to use it than Z did. Z shouldn't get to claim self-defense when he instigated the conflict. And it wouldn't be the first time someone started a fight and ended up on the losing end.

If someone is following me in their vehicle, particularly after dark, I would have reason to be concerned about it. If they leave their vehicle to follow me, it's escalated to a threat. I'm not going to hang around to see what they're going to do. If they get close enough to grab me, I'm going to defend myself (and having attend a self-defense class, that is exactly what the police told us to do, because someone who wants to get you into their car is going to take you somewhere else, and it's not for any good intent).

The only reason we 'know' that Martin attacked Zimmerman is through Z's statement. And it's a well-known fact that people are less than honest when relating their version of events, especially when those events involve homicide. Of course he's going to make himself look good. None of the witnesses saw who made the first physical contact, they came upon the fight when it was in progress.

As the adult with a weapon, it was incumbent on Zimmerman to act responsibly. He didn't, and now he has to live with the fact that he killed someone. But he's still alive.

As for what law enforcement can do, that's another story. But they didn't do much more than take a statement from Zimmerman, they didn't even take samples for drug & alcohol tests from him. Now they're saying they wanted to arrest him, but the States Attorney's office said not to. Rather convenient excuse, 1 month later, especially considering that this PD has done exactly the same thing in the past.

@DJM; How does Martin know that Zimmerman has a gun at all? Does it make any sense at all that if Zimmerman showed his gun to Martin that Martin would then attack him when he had no weapons of his own (other than his fists).

This is all completely ridiculous. This case has been blown out of proportion by the American public. Race should not be brought into account, this is not a racial issue, it is an issue about a stupid law that allows vigilantes to excuse themselves from the use of excessive force. There is no doubt that Zimmerman shot Martin, he admitted to it and that is that. The fact that the state has allowed him to be able to use excessive force, under some BS law is the problem and the State needs to take as much blame for this incident as Zimmerman.

This law encourages vigilante response and if this were to happen in NY, there is no doubt that Zimmerman would have been charged for manslaughter, even if it was in self defense, and he would have had compounded trouble with the fact that he was carrying a concealed firearm. Now we have Black Panthers calling for more vigilante justice by placing a bounty on Zimmerman's head. The real issue is that if Zimmerman was not able to carry a concealed weapon, and if the "Stand your Ground Law" was not in place...would he have felt it so necessary to use such excessive force. This Law plays to the mindset of the vigilante, and instigates their action.

He probably didn't know that Z had a gun, but that doesn't change the fact that Z was armed and was pursuing. He also didn't know that Z had called the police and was acting as a concerned citizen, ESP doesn't exist. To Martin, it probably looked like someone coming to harm him (and he was right, even if Z didn't intend it that way). It doesn't make sense to me either that M would just attack Z, if he had already been able to leave the scene, and especially if he knew that Z had a weapon. Which is why Z's story doesn't pass the smell test for me.

And as for why I think he was pursuing? When Z was on the phone with 911, the dispatcher wanted to designate a meeting point (some mailboxes I believe). At first, Z agrees, but then interrupts the dispatcher to say that the police should call when they arrive, to get his location. That would indicate to me that he's on the move, and it's not back to his car, where he already gave the address.

Z may have been legally right, technically. But in every other way he was horribly, horribly wrong.

Whatever happened, I hope that eventually we all have an accurate representation of the events.

My own feeling is that Zimmerman went after Martin, grabbed him, Martin punched him in the nose, they grappled, and Zimmerman, perhaps in fear for his life, shot Martin. In this reading Zimmerman is guilty of at least manslaughter (I am not a lawyer); had he not approached Martin, there might not have been a confrontation.

This I think is true: The voice apparently shouting "Help!" on the 911 call can probably be identified as either belonging to Zimmerman or not. I'm not sure that tells us anything, but voiceprint analysis is pretty good, and there will either be a match between the voice and Zimmerman's voice, or not. Even better if somewhere there is a tape recording of Martin's voice.

ZORN REPLY -- Under your theory, it scarcely matters whose voice is calling help if Zimmerman initiated the physical altercation

Hey Eric -- are you using the same photo that Fox News has been using of Trayvon Martin? You know, the one they Photoshopped to make his skin DARKER than it really is?

Traybon ruined his iwn name by bring drugs to school around other kids , enough of poor trayvon . This is a self defense case msny law inforcment are killed every year by kuds from perenting. He shouldn't of been out as o late and getyi.g in trouble at school, he should've been grounded instead of using cell phone and being out lste. Enough time for perents to take better responbility for kuds or Don't have any. Zimmerman had a broken nose and could've SF ied from bliw to head, this is srlf defense. Why don't black group take million dollsrs given to mother snd get young knocked up kids into further training to get out section 8 stop costing tax payers money!!!!!!. Ejo hrlped whit boy killd with gas by black boys or man killed in Philly by 3 white boys. Where is Brock Obamma because ptimarly white voters put him in office so stop with the poor black prople talk. Even Turkey joined in to help get food to south Aferica

Eric Zorn, You should be ashamed of yourself. May you suffer like the parents in this this case. Perhaps only then will your minuscule mind change and you could actually see the facts as they really are. This story you have written is just that, nothing but a story.

@MOPerina re:


If Martin saw Zimmerman reaching for his waistband and they were in close proximity? Pushing him down or hitting him hard enough to try to knock him down might well seem to make more sense (especially when you're in fight or flight mode with this stranger following you first in a car and then on foot) than just running away so the armed stranger shoots you.

@Eric -- you keep talking about his head being "driven into the concrete" -- yet everything I see says that Zimmerman had wet grass on him and that Trayvon was found lying face down (that's hard for me to imagine, in any scenario, honestly) in the grass. Where's the concrete? Did they move from one place to another or was it just bad luck that somehow Z's body was on grass and his head on a walkway?

I would guess that the trip the next day to the hospital or doctor was more a recognition that he might actually be in trouble for this and that the "getting first aid" and then off to the police station was more an indicator of his condition at the time.

One of the "facts" that have appeared in news reports concernes Mr. Zimmerman's gun which had a fully loaded magazine and one empty shell casing still in the chamber when the police arrived. He was carrying a Kel-Tec 9mm semiautomatic pistol which should have ejected the empty casing and chambered another live round from the magazine when it was fired. That did not happen and the question remains, why did the empty stay in the chamber? If Mr. Martin saw the gun in Zimmerman's hand and grabbed it in his left hand and tried to wrestle the gun free, his grip would have been firmly around the slide of the pistol with the muzzle pointed directly at his chest. If Zimmerman's finger were in the trigger guard and Martin pulled sharply on the gun it very likely would have fired and with his hand gripping the slide it could not reciprocate and eject the fired cartridge. There is no other explanation for the empty shell case being in Zimmerman's gun, during the struggle to control the gun Martin caused it to discharge into his chest. Karma is a bitch...

In the midst of all this disputation, let us recall that another three black men were blown away within the last day or two in Chicago in a drug related excursion and that there was a raft of other shootings over the weekend. Black on black crime is a far greater problem than the issue discussed here.


Can you explain the karma involved in that? Is it bad karma to try to stop someone from shooting you?


I, for one, don't live in your city. That would be one reason I'm not discussing your local crimes of the weekend.

Regardless of race, I see a difference between someone NOT involved in criminal activity being shot by someone and someone who IS involved in a criminal activity or in a criminal network.

Walking to the store for snacks should be inherently less dangerous than "drug related excursions."

On a race related note, do you think that being raised in a country where it seems like your life is less valuable than that of many other people -- you are more likely to be killed or injured in crimes, more likely to live in poor neighborhoods, less likely to be hired for jobs, less likely to be considered for a rental in a more affluent neighborhood -- do you think that a certain sense of fatalism, of fight rather than flight, of "if I don't look out for myself, no one else will" would be more common?

Just curious, if the neighborhood watch person had been a respected black memeber of the community and the kid ALSO black; what would Sharpin and Jackson have had to say then?? NOTHING~~ When it is a black on black crime, no one marches, no one protests, no one seems to care!! The only people that have turned this in to a RACE issue are the people protesting... period. I am not forming an opinion till I have all the facts. This man has not been arrested because there is reason to believe that when the "shot was fired" he felt threatened. The law is THAT simplistic. In other states the shooter may have been arrested, but the law in FL state protects the shooter in this instance. He followed the kid (not against the law), he called 911, OK, but when the kid started assaulting him he had LEGAL right to protect himself (according to FL state law).

To all:
It is NOT a gated community!
The location in question is several apartment buildings with a fence and gate.
The news reports have universally trumped up the "gated Community", I would guess trying to make the neighborhood into an exclusive white enclave, filled with McMansions. It is in fact a working class, mixed race (less then half white) neighborhood.


It's different when laws create an environment enabling predators to get their jollies chasing and setting up innocent victims based on certain profiles. Justifiable homicides are on the increase in states where Stand Your Ground laws exist.


Your comment regarding Zimmerman being a "predator" who has set up an "innocent victim" bespeaks, to be polite, of jumping to conclusions and assuming facts not in evidence. Remind me not to have you on my jury, I prefer jurors who wait to hear the evidence before coming to a conclusion.

To all the people who are saying that the info about the witness, and Marin attacking Zimmerman first has just come out, you're all completely delusional.

There are clips from the Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, and other local TV stations from the day after the shooting, in which the witness who called 911 & described Zimmerman as being in a "red shirt" and being attacked. These aired the day after the shooting, and have been available ever since then.

Also, there are clips from the day after the shooting of the local prosecutor being interviewed & stating that Zimmerman won't be arrested or charged, because they have clear evidence that Martin attacked him, including Zimmerman's broken nose, blood stained shirt, bruises on his head, and grass stains on the back of his shirt. All evidence consistent with someone who was assaulted.

Just because Martin's family wants to cash in on this event, doesn't mean that you should just blatantly believe all the propoganda they and their greedy attorneys are putting forward. Do you still believe he was the good little, no trouble making, 12 year old his family is painting him to be? Or do you not believe your lying eyes and the pictures of him as a tattood, muscle bound, gold toothed thug who had been expelled from one school & was on suspension for drug dealing from another, while a police investigation into his beating of a bus driver 5 days before he was shot have all come to light and been verified??

ZORN REPLY -- Do you have reliable sources for some of these allegations (many of which aren't relevant to the story, such as gold teeth)? Reputable news sites, please.

@Jen: I cannot speak to what my attitude would be in the situation you describe.

While your comparison of persons involved vs. not involved in criminal activity is interesting, it is inapplicable with respect to the many innocent victims of black on black violence, which is what my comment regarding a "raft of other shootings" was directed at. For example, very recently in Chicago a six year girl was shot dead on her front porch in a drive by. That heinous killing has not generated interest remotely like the interest here. Why?

Regarding your comment about life being "less valuable than other people", insofaras as it is directed toward black Americans, let us recall that the biggest problem black Americans have, at least in regards to violence, is other black Americans.

Juan Williams's article in the WSJ squarely addresses this issue, citing facts that have long been ignored, such as the brutal facts that even though blacks are only 13% of the US population, they are 49% of US murder victims and 93%--93%!-- of them are killed by other blacks.

I wonder how many times Bobby Rush wore a hoodie in memory of black victims of black murderers?

He also notes that 72% of all black children are illegitimate. It's tough to blame Whitey on that one.

PS I don't live in Chicago, either.


Mr. Martin was not in danger of being shot until he found himself siting on Zimmerman's chest and pounding his head on the pavement. That behavior, in itself, does not suggest a desire to generate "good" karma. There is no evidence that Zimmerman brandished his gun nor in any way threatened Martin with it before he found himself flat on his back. Let us suppose that Martin did grab the pistol and succeeded in taking it away from Zimmerman. What do you think might have happened next? I am of the opinion that if Mr. Martin had not acted aggressively toward Mr. Zimmerman both men would be alive today. Mr Zimmerman was leaving the scene when he was blindsided by Mr Martin. Very bad decision...

Oops! I think that six-year old girl was Hispanic. Same difference, though. Where's the national outcry about that death?

We all judge people, black, white, hispanic, asian, man, woman. Example...I am a female and when I'm home alone and let's say a big hulken man is at my door I would not answer. We ALL judge on suspicious character. But the real problem is that when owning a gun for sole purpose of self defense is that it can draw a very thin line when actually using it. I would say 'decide' to use it but you don't, you become irratic and fire in an instant. The power one feels when holding a gun is overwhelming and dangerous to others and yourself. And sadly more often than not, one has already found themself in a situation to realize that it's now too late to reach for that gun.

One less criminal to worry about. 17 and already in trouble in school and old enough to know right from wrong. This is a self defense case. Too many officers killed every year. Where does he buy his drugs? Why wasn't he grounded. Zimmerman could've of died too.

ZORN REPLY -- Hurling irresponsible accusations against a dead teen doesn't polish the case for the idea that Zimmerman doesn't appear to be criminally liable in his death. These cases are, I'll say it again, about facts and evidence, not preconceptions, innuendo, etc.

The majority of these posts are the height of ignorance -- the writer chooses to believe one story or the other and then argues for it with innuendo and attitude, but a sparsity of facts. The facts are not all in, and any position you take at this point is an ignorant position. The fact that Trayvon is dead does not mean Zimmerman is guilty any more than the fact that Trayvon was wearing a hoodie means that he was guilty.

Judging someone you don't know based on incomplete information reveals nothing about the other person, but much about you.



Nonsense. Quite frequently there have been rallies and demonstrations in Chicago neighborhoods after "black on black" murders. People care a lot. Apparently you don't care enough to pay attention except when a difference in race is in play.

This is my feeling on what happened. Kid did not know Zimmerman was armed, decided to punch him out and got shot. This sanitized portrait of 17 year old at 12-13 was for a reason. Shockingly, this is embraced by the biggest race hustlers around, Al, Jesse etc. I don't remember anything mentioned last summer after white people were randomly attacked in Milwaukee, Philadelphia, and Chicago by thugs. they kept that quiet like it never happened. The double standard of calling racism is astounding. Regarding stereotyping. if you don't want to be stereotyped, don't act so stereotypical.

@ Rob Well those "rallies" are not getting any national media coverage as I have never heard Al, Jessie or the panthers promoting a $10K prize on a head of someone black who murdered a black... have you? NO! I am not saying people do not care, I am saying it will never get press because they would rather focus their energy on creating racial tension. The worst enemies to the black community are the blacks themselves. There are more crimes commited against blacks by blacks; 93% of crimes are black on black (2010 FBI statistic). So why has there been unending coverage on this hispanic guy shooting a 17 year old (in what COULD prove to be self defense) when innocent children die every day in America by gang bangers shooting each other and innocent children?? These innocent babies get a 10 second spot in the evening news if that??? Where are the panthers, jessie and al then????

What about other killings, where are the protests? How are vicious street killings by gangs and other criminals similar to this murder?

They're not. The killer was a neighborhood watch guard, a supposed protector of the innocent with the backing of police. A teenager walking home through the rain is dead because of his behavior. This is not much different from the shock many feel when a soldier viciously kills helpless civilians.

"...if you don't want to be stereotyped, don't act so stereotypical." So much for diversity.

The only way to see racism in this is if you want to. This issue deals with a law that instigates vigilante action. Zimmerman is a vigilante, he is constantly portrayed as someone who was overactive in the neighborhood watch, and carried a concealed firearm. This is a person who is looking for trouble, he thinks his intentions are good...but his actions are horribly wrong. "Stand your Ground" is the issue not race.

I don't call Spike Lee a racist, But his actions are inciting violent action, making him just as much of a vigilante douchebag as Zimmerman.

@Big Al:

Okay, so in this scenario, Zimmerman is on his back, being whaled on by Martin who is sitting on his chest. He is unable to defend himself with his hands and yet able to reach around? under? Martin, unholster his gun, take off the safety, and manuever it into position to shoot him? Seems unlikely.

Sure sounds like he had that gun already out and ready to go. Your version of the events makes much more sense if he had his hand on the gun in the holster or the gun out when he approached Martin. It makes little to no sense if he was headed back to his car, having "lost" him.


IF Martin had been able to grab the pistol, I think Zimmerman might well be dead. That would be bad too.

PS If Martin had killed Zimmerman with his own gun, I'm betting he'd be sitting in prison right now.

ZORN REPLY -- And would you consider that right or wrong? If you say wrong and your explanation is there isn't enough evidence to show that Martin started the fight, that he might have been attacked first and was only defending himself, I would say, ahhhh.

--If you mean "killed for his behavior". Do you mean he was shot because he looks or acts different. Or that he was shot because he was trying break someone's head on the sidewalk, by that person. This is what I think happened. Is justice is what you are really looking for, or is it just the issue of keeping this continuous double standard scam promoted in large part by people whom make a career and profit out of it.

To Zorn RE: sources:

First, thanks for the reply. I don’t think I have the ability to amend my original post to include this, but if anybody wants to see my post & Zorn’s response, just do a “ctrl + f” search on this page for “Poppa” (from my handle), or scroll up to see my posting timestamped 3:10 pm, today.

OK, so here’s what I’ve got:

Pictures of grown up Martin (as opposed to 12 year old Trayvon) - those are available everywhere, and have been confirmed - in fact, they're featured as "facts" in on your reputable employer, the Chicago Tribune's, website, in an article titled, "Trayvon Martin questions: Trayvon Martin rumors abound, but here are facts;" and another article, published by the Orlando Sentinel but picked up & run by your paper titled, "Trayvon Martin: New photos, details spark online debate;"

At least 2 arm tattoos; gold grill on bottom teeth; and muscle-bound. You state that, “many [of the photos] are not relevant to the story,” but I disagree with you, they are 100% relevant to this story. The family and their propagandists are attempting to paint a picture of Martin as a sweet little innocent child, when he was anything but that. How come the pictures they distributed of him are from when he was a 12 year old sixth grader? How come they weren’t more recent ones, showing who he was? Children change drastically from ages 12 to 17 – Trayvon Martin sure did.

We also know that the family, besides not showing the world what Martin looked like at the time of his death, also lied about his immediate past that included serious criminal troubles in school. It was revealed in an interview with Martin’s father that he was suspended from school when he was shot. The elder Martin insisted that it was nothing insidious – in fact, here’s his quote from reputable news source Kansas City Star – "He was not suspended for something dealing with violence or anything like that. It wasn't a crime he committed, but he was in an unauthorized area (on school property).” The last time I checked, possession of marijuana is a crime in Miami, especially on school grounds, by a minor. This is at least his third suspension from that school for criminal activity – check out reputable source WPIX.com, for example, which ran the story by James Ford (@jamesfordtv on twitter for a pic of him) pointing out that Martin had also been suspended for vandalism (which is a crime), and possession of stolen property + possession of burglary tools (another crime). Unless Trayvon’s father actually believed that his son was suspended for two whole weeks for being in an unauthorized area, and not for the bag of weed found on him, this is further proof that the family is lying and that their son was repeatedly in trouble for criminal activity at school.

Regarding the timely interviews with the witness who called 911 & told police that Martin was the aggressor, they are available at the website for reputable Fox News Orlando. Now, I know most in Chicago, and certainly those interested in advancing a cause, don’t believe anything that originated on Fox News (frankly, I think they have an agenda, too), but there is no denying the interview they did with the neighbor who called 911, it’s called “Teen Shot and Killed in Neighborhood Altercation,” and first went up on their website less than 24 hours after the incident. But again, the witness statement from this interview (which appears to be the only eyewitness to any part of this altercation) has been conveniently left out of the national dialogue until just the past few days.

Also on that site are interviews with, and statements from, both local prosecutor Norman Wilfinger, and former police chief Lee (he was run out of town just now for not being “of color,” btw, kind of like the new police chief right here in Englewood), that there are no grounds to arrest Zimmerman, and that both physical evidence & witness statements corroborate Zimmerman’s story that he was attacked by Martin, and on the ground getting savagely beaten when he shot him.

Then, don’t forget statements by State Prosecutor Angela Courey, who was hand-picked to take over this case after the “local community” got wind of it & started screaming racism. Courey, by the way, is the prosecutor for the Jacksonville area, which is nearly 130 miles from Sanford (it would be like a Springfield prosecutor handling a case in Chicago). Why, then was a state’s attorney whose jurisdiction butts up against the Georgia state line, asked by the governor of Florida, to handle this case in Miami, the southernmost major city in the state? Because Courey is known as the “ultimate champion of victim’s rights,” or at least was described that way in the “Good Morning America” profile of her, which is available everywhere, including reputable Yahoo. Anyway, after doing her investigation into this case (now the second investigation, after Sanford PD & prosecutor’s investigation determined that Zimmerman acted in self defense), that this case is “un-prosecutable.” Again, that quote is available everywhere, including in the Trib.

In terms of the beating of a bus driver, Martin’s confirmed twitter account, @NO_LIMIT_NIGGA (again, confirmed by multiple media reports) there was a tweet from his confirmed relative on Feb. 21 stating, “'Yu ain't tell me yu swung on a bus driver” [sic]. Now I don’t talk jive, but it doesn’t take June Cleaver to decipher what that means. Or what other tweets, like “Finna smoke 1 wit my dawg wayne” mean.

Another point that needs to be mentioned is, what is wrong with the father? Who on earth sends their 17 year old child out at 7:30 at night in the middle of winter, in the dark, in the rain, in an increasingly violent neighborhood that he’s not from or familiar with, to the store? As a parent myself, I would NEVER send my child out in conditions like that. The interesting thing is, ask yourself what would have happened if the Martins were visiting someone in say, Englewood, and Trayvon walked around the exact same conditions, with a hood over his head, walking slowly, apparently checking out the houses. He would have been shot dead there, too. The difference is, in Englewood, he would have been shot by a black man – and you wouldn’t have hear a thing about this from the black “leadership.” They wouldn’t care. And nobody can say otherwise – there have been over 3 dozen murders in Chicago in March alone, virtually all of minorities (mostly black, a few Hispanic), nearly all assumed to be gang (ie, black) related, and I haven’t heard one peep from Jesse Jackson, who is a congressman representing the area in which most of these occurred. Yet I see his father, and Al Sharpton, alongside the Martin parents at every opportunity.


You do realize that this really makes everything else you've said laughable, right?

First of all, he was already dead by 7:30.

I have an 18 yo at home and a 21 yo at college -- and the college is certainly in a far more dangerous urban area, If anything we are/were considered pretty strict parents -- and your comment is TOTALLY ridiculous.

17 yos have jobs until 11 at night and walk home in the dark. Kids at my son's high school not only wear hoodies, but take city buses home after musical practice -- which goes until after 8pm and then walk from bus stops (or from the rehearsal) to their houses. In the dark, in the rain, etc. I just desperately hope they don't come across an armed and suspicious person.

(Please include links to your sources -- "multiple media sources" isn't a link)

--This so-called "new information" was readily accessible a long time ago.All that was needed was a little research by the news organizations which many didn't do.Apparently the writer of this piece didn't as well.What's happened to the media?Irresponsible.

ZORN REPLY -- Not true. It was leaked to the Orlando Sentinel on Monday. You could look it up. You won't. Just as you won't provide links to sources to prove your point. But we'll be waiting for you here just in case.....


The claim about gold teeth is based on a profile photo on a twitter account that pretty convincingly appeared to be the account of Trayvon Martin. I looked it over when it first came to public attention and it looked authentic, having a very active history dating back to well before Trayvon's death and iincluded comments from friends acknowledging the death afterward. I read a stready stream of tweets going back to December.

The account name was Slimm@no_limit_n***. Slimm is a nickname that his mother supposedly acknowledged, but I don't have a link for that.

The Twitter account appears to be gone now. There was a lot of trash talk and a reference to an incident in which the tweeter appeared to be saying that he punched a bus driver in one tweet. Some of the later tweets also looked like he was referring to his school suspension and counting days left. The photo definitely looked just like Martin and he did have a startling amount of gold trim on his teeth.

But I don't see how any of that tells us who approached whom, who grabbed or hit first and Zimmerman's position when the gun was fired. One thought I had was that Martin might have hit Zimmerman and maybe jumped on him, but it's possible that Martin got up off Zimmerman to end it, and an angry and humiliated Zimmerman shot him then. Of course, that's more speculation, but logistically it makes it easier to understand how Zimmerman ended up on the ground being beaten but somehow managed to get to his gun and shoot Martin in the chest. Perhaps the struggle had just ended, but I know I'm out on a limb here.


On this we can agree, it was a terrible waste of potential all around.

"If Martin had killed Zimmerman with his own gun, I'm betting he'd be sitting in prison right now."

He was much too young to have this much bad luck. I feel sorry for his family, his loss will haunt them for the rest of their lives.
I also feel sorry for Mr Zimmerman, he will live with these memories and the constant thoughts that he could have done something differently. There is nothing good that could come of this...

Interesting interview of the mother of the 13 yr old that witnessed some of the final moments, on Sharpton's show. She and her attorney claim her child saw a figure of a man on the ground, nobody was on top. He heard screaming, the screaming stopped after a single shot. He was asked what color was the figure's skin and clothing, the child could not tell because it was too dark. The police then started suggesting colors...

The lead detective also told the mother he did not believe it was self-defense.

Wow, new video shows Zimmerman arriving at the police station after the attack. There is no blood on him. His shaven head shows no marks or bandages, his nose is not bleeding or bandaged. His shirt is clean. MSNBC.

ZORN REPLY -- wow is right. And THIS looks like actual evidence. though it's a bit grainy you can't see any signs of a serious head wound...a busted nose might not show up, but I see NO mark on his head, which, unlike all our speculation, does seem to make his account seem more dubious and call into question still further now the PD handled the case.

If the neighborhood has a history of recent crimes, police should have increased patrol. Neighborhood Watch is to watch & report, not get out of your SUV with a gun and follow a person after 911 told him not to follow.

Trayvon was scared & probably aware of the neighborhood crimes. That's why he called his girlfriend about someone following him.

OK so the witness said they saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman beating him. Probably true. But we don't know who threw the 1st punch. We do know Zimmerman had a gun & pursued Trayvon.

Trayvon wasn't looking for trouble - just a some iced tea & skittles. Now he's dead because Zimmerman with a gun was looking to be a neighborhood hero because he done it before.

It's a tragedy. Justice must prevail.

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