The Finer Points of the Immigration Bill

Julia Preston, The New York Times reporter who answered some immigration questions last week, today wrote an article that outlines the immigration bill before the Senate.

The bill is called an “an ambitious package made up of interlocking components” that aims to:

Secure the nation’s borders, provide a path to legal status for an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants, halt illegal immigration in the future, reduce backlogs for immigrants who have waited to settle in the United States legally, and offer a temporary work force of skilled and unskilled workers for employers in the future.

For all the details, read the full article here.

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The point is not, as so many in previous blogs have insisted, that illegal means illegal, etc., but that our current immigration system is broken and has been for many years now, and that it desperately needs to be fixed in a rational way which treats people fairly no matter what their current status is in this country or in applying for entry from outside. To use the analogy that many anti-immigrant bloggers have used, the illegals did not sneak into our house through the back door instead of knocking politely on the front; rather, they came in through the broken front door and have been inhabiting an abandoned house which is badly in need of repair, and they are the ones doing the repairs with their own sweat. blood and tears, as many generations of the world’s poor have done for this country in the past, as we who are lucky enough to have been born in the much nicer house across the street look on and complain about how THEY are ruining the neighborhood instead of appreciating their efforts to clean it up and make it better for all of us. How, you ask, are they doing that? By earning and spending money and by making it possible for all of you to spend less of yours for many basic services of which we all take advantage, including growing our food, washing our dishes in the restaurants after we eat what they can not afford to, taking care of our elderly, paying into Social Security so that we will be able to collect what is due to us when we are elderly, building and repairing our homes, buying our discarded cars and clothes and items we sell at yard sales so that they do not fill up our landfills, etc. Yes, they speak different languages and have different cultures–so much the better! Doesn’t that make life just so much more interesting? I really enjoy the variety in the US, and have never been one to look for a homogenous society in this country, especially since the country was founded on principles which inherently support diversity. So, it seems to me that those of you out there in the blog who decry such diversity are among the members of our society who are yourselves more anti-American than those who have come after you, because the USA is all about inclusion and the immigrant tends to understand that better than many who have failed to learn the lesson in our own schools.

I assume that members of the Senate and the House can read, write, and do sums. That being the case, I am sure they understand that in only a few years the illegals will write their own bill. Florida and California are examples of states where large immigrant populations have election power. In just a few years the number of states with this power will make pandering to the immigrants necessary in all national elections. Illegal immigration will disappear as an issue. We will soon have a WASP minority.

Ms. Preston writes, “Many Republicans reject this program [i.e., the one that allows illegal aliens to remain in the US “to work legally” on “probation”] as an amnesty that rewards immigrants who broke the law.”

Excuse me, but could she be a little more biased? There are plenty of Democrats, including me, who reject that program as amnesty. It’s just a matter of applying the standard definition of the word.

“Penalties for employers who hire illegal immigrants would be greatly increased, to $5,000 for a first offense and up to $75,000 and even jail for repeat offenses.”

Why should we believe our elected officials will enforce these penalties any more than those that are on the books now? Especially after the business interests they love so much are given the amnesty they so deeply desire, and the need for making a show of enforcement will instantly evaporate?

Democrats and Republicans both suck on this issue. If we could put together a third party that made opposition to illegal immigration its centerpiece plank, I think we’d finally find a way to break out of the stranglehold of the Republicrats.

It’s about time to decriminalize those who’re already here and working. No immigration bill will satisfy every conceivable interest, and this decent compromise is better than what it would replace.

what about our people here in the u.s.a this our country and the law makers aren’t listening to what we have to say about it. send them back home where they belong. the law makers don’t worry about it when our kids are taken from us and we don’t have ins go hungery because we can’t get food stamp or tenncare for our families. this is our country and have to picture id for everything but not them.but not them they can get what they want. we need to march ourseleves for our rights to send them back where they back from .but we would get hired if we left our jobs to protest for rights what has america come to when it lets the illegal immigrants run our country for their rights they break our laws take food and our ins from our people take their so called hard earn money and send it back to mexico to be spend marry and people have kids to stay here and bet most of them already have a wife or husband in mexico and we have learn their language which is wrong in the first place and there are a bunch all ready in office running our country they are wantting to take america back and we are letting them they have our factory already but yet they still keep coming why don’t stay in their country and fight there and use the money they have already send back . they send back over 20 billion dollars last year. please send back each and every one of them and as im concerned they’re american wife ,kids and husbands see how mexico will like keeping them up

I agree with Betsy.

Now, who will the greedy American businessman employ once the border is cemented shut. Citizens wont work for those cheap wages and also wont take a bunch of crap from their over-bearing, demeaning mean-spirited charlatan bosses. I’d just once like to see a bunch of the exploiting stuffed-shirts trotting around the field with a bandana and a bucket. It would be as pathetic a display as G.W.Bush trying to be a man.

So your back door is busted on your house therefore anyone should be able to come into your house? That is not logical to me. I love diversity and I have family and friends from all over the world however I take great pride in the fact that we are law abiding citizens. Let’s have as much immigration as is necessary but let’s do it legally and lets make sure that the next President and all the elected officials do what they are suppost to do and protect our country from foreign invasion. If they are not smart enought to figure it out then contract it out to (halliburton.. just kidding) a business that has the creativity to come up with a plan that will work to protect our country’s interest. This has nothing to do with predjudice, hatred, intolerance. This has to do with the rule of law. Without it we live in Anarchy. Make sure you write your congressional leaders to tell them to step up to the plate and save this great country so that the legal immigrants that come to this country have a country to live in.

Let me clarify something very important to be fair with this vast amount of hard-working people: many illegal workers pay larger taxes than legal workers in the same tax bracket level for several reasons. Absurd? Let’s see:
First, their employers deduct their income tax from the source, in some cases even at innapropriate tax brackets. This happens not only because the law determines but also because they want to avoid bringing any irregularities to the attention of IRS inspectors, as the IRS do not require that employees have a SSN to pay taxes. So, many of them DO pay taxes.
Second, many illegal workers declare a smaller number of extemptions than they could – for wrong advice and sheer ignorance.
Third, they cannot also file their income tax to enjoy from legal deductions and receive their tax returns.
Fourth, they also pay taxes and fees when buying any product or service – each and every day.
Each one of these factors brings monetary benefits to the American people, without letting all those who contributed to these benefits to enjoy from the money they paid for. That’s abusive in any language. That’s exploring people who are forced by economic despair they are not responsible for, to do things they would in fact love not to do – including coming here to be mistreated like this. The vast majority of them are decent nice people and NOT declared enemies – like the nazis, unless America decides to create enemies by treating them like nazis. It’s neither very fair nor wise, to create enemies instead of supporting friends when they need. Only stupid people or bullies behave like this.

If by ANY reason a person, legal or illegal, has contributed to the wealth and health of the American people by paying federal taxes, common sense, morality, human dignity, and universal fairness (which should mean the same as legal justice but it’s not) dictate they MUST enjoy from US federal services.

Conservatives also point out that the illegals, once legal, would automatically be eligible for Social Security and Medicare and would not be required to pay any back taxes, something bill supporters say is simply impossible to calculate.

Conservative Heritage Foundation President Robert Rector estimates the total cost of the bill to be in the trillions of dollars, warning, “This $2.5 trillion cost is going to come smashing into the Social Security and Medicare systems at exactly the point those systems are already going bankrupt. So the bottom line is that these individuals will make no net contribution in taxes while they are working. They will be a deficit. But when they hit retirement, they will be an astonishing cost on the taxpayer.”

From NYT 5/22/09

There are 47 million people receiving Social Security of one form or another today. Starting in 2008; approx. 70 to 80 million baby boomers will begin retiring – that means they will stop working and paying taxes and begin collecting their paid for – but not there, Social Security. Let’s figure – 47 million plus 70 to 80 million equals approx. 120 million people. There are approx. 300 million people in the country, 300 divided by 120 equals approx. 1/3 of the country collecting money from Social Security that it does not have. Add a few incidentals like 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants here already that can’t collect benefits now but many surely will try when they can – I know many of them and this is what they tell me – plus all the baby’s they can have and families they can import. Add approx 500 thousand new legal immigrants per year who will certainly have issues concerning benefits they can receive since they will think they deserve them – not all of course, plus a large unknown number of new illegal immigrants every month – if you think they are going to stop coming – you’re crazy.
The immigration problem will be hard to solve – very hard if not impossible because the Government, not business or the people, needs these immigrants to make money from to cover the debits they’ve created and cannot pay for.

Im disgusted in the plan to grant amnesty to 12 million illegals! Ive never been nearly so passionate about any political issue as this.

Amnesty was granted to 3 million in 1986 as a one shot deal to make the problem go away. Flawed logic as it only multiplied the problem, literally.

We have effectively lost the the war that we thought we won in 1848. We’ve been invaded and occupied and its only getting worse. How can our elected officals pass bills helping illegal immigriants when the vast majority of US citizens dont want it???

Illegals are having anchor babies and using them as excuse to stay. It totally exploits the original law about if you have a baby in a county then the baby is a citizen of that nation.

I dont mind paying an extra quarter for a head a lettuce or bunch of grapes. Tax payers are taking a beating e.g. school systems, health care, prison systems (when they are actually arrested.)

I say keep the top 10% of them and deport the rest. Build walls, put the national guard and state troops on the borders backed with modern technology. Finger print them and 90 days in jail if your caught once, then deported. Caught again and its 3-5 years of labor in jail to help the state before being deported.

My great-grandfather didnt get this kind of handouts when he came here from Italy.

This is a smack in the face to anyone trying to get through the very long legal process of becoming a US citizen.

The face of American is really changing and the founding fathers must be rolling over in their graves! Viva los USA – LOL.

(to Evlyn) I had to read your ‘interesting’ comment a couple of times to understand exactly what you were trying to say. First of all, if your kids are being taken away then obviously there must be a good reason why. In addition to that, if your an AMERICAN CITIZEN who can’t even find a way to afford food in this blessed country, BUT THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS CAN (with so much limitation crap that they go through) then that just shows laziness and ignorance on your part!

You’re also criticizing illegal immigrants for sending money back to their relatives in Mexico? You’re the one complaining about how your own government can’t even help you with foodstamps! What’s my point? You know how it feels to be desperate for foodstamps because you need to feed your family. Furthermore, if you got shipped to Mexico or even just to a different state, you would probably starve to death because chances are you wouldn’t have the will power or agricultural skills, like most of these hardworking immigrants, to keep your family alive. Wouldn’t you want to help out your own family just alittle?

Regarding if illegal immigrants learn English? I tutored at an elementary school where more than half of the student body was Hispanics; these children were intelligent and articulate. At home, their parents probably helped and motivated them, and even stressed the importance of education, so that their children can go further in life. Last but not least, do they pay taxes? Of course most of them do, even when they know that most of it isn’t going to them. But have you looked it this way: even though they lack proof of citizenship to this country, they wish to help build America by contributing to social security to help our baby boomers, in addition to helping other causes that need the rest of their tax funds.

In conclusion, I think the problem with America is that some folks are too close-minded and expects Uncle Sam to treat them like royalty, which causes people like yourself to whine about “illegal immigrants stealing American jobs.” Viva Diversity and immigration!

re: Mike’s comments and others…

“How can our elected officals pass bills helping illegal immigriants when the vast majority of US citizens dont want it???” Vast majority? Where are you getting your polling data from? A CNN/USA Today poll conducted earlier this month tabulated 80% did you get that? 80%! of the people polled favored legalization of those already here.

Here’s another gem “Illegals are having anchor babies and using them as excuse to stay.” Under what provision of law, are you allowed to stay in the U.S. solely because you have a child who by birth is a U.S. citizen? There is none! This is just another red herring which gets flung around and few if any bother to check if it’s factual.

The reality of the situation is that they are here and the vast majority of them are contributing to our society and our way of life with the work they do. Those who wail and moan about the strain on our medical resources and the horror stories of uninsured illegal alien drivers … for crying out loud, if our system denies them the opportunity to buy medical or auto insurance insurance (and you can’t without a SS #/ driver’s license) what ca we expect? I am an immigrant who who played by the rules and waited in line for more than 8 years dealing with a painfully inefficient and marginally competent INS. The system that exists simply does not work. The compromise reached by members of the Senate last week is not perfect, but it’s a huge step forward from where we are now. The Border would be more secure – the ranks of the Border Patrol will be doubled; Employer’s will be held more accountable; and future need could be met by a temporary worker program as-needed. And as for those demonized “illegals” who are already in the country will have to pay a fine to receive work authorization and wait 13 years before they can become citizens or sponsor any family members to join them. I hope the truth and common sense can cut through this fog which is apparently being created by those with their own agendas… and while we’re at it, let’s secure BOTH borders. More terrorists or would be terrorists have entered the U.S. through our Northern border.


You misstate the results of the CNN poll you refer to in order to make your point for Blanket Amnesty…re-read the CNN Poll which I have transmitted herewith. Secondly, you condone the breaking of the laws of this country in re the theft of social security numbers. Thirdly, you state you are an immigrant “who played by the rules”. Playing by the rules, in this country, does not mean the justification of theft nor the aiding, abetting, and harboring of criminals…illegals are criminals. If you are now a naturalized citizen of this country, I’d suggest you re-visit your ‘Oath of Citizenship’ and pay particular attention to your sworn intention “…to defend and protect the constitution and laws of the the United States against all enemiies foreign and domestic”. Illegal aliens, no matter what their country of origin, are breaking the laws of this country.

(CNN/Poll Results) — More than three-quarters of Americans favor allowing illegal immigrants who have spent many years in the United States to apply for citizenship, according to a poll conducted for CNN by Opinion Research Corp.




For the poll, 1,012 adult Americans were interviewed by telephone between Friday and Sunday; it has a sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

A proposal being considered by the Senate would treat illegal immigrants differently based on the amount of time they have lived in the United States.

Earlier this month, senators left for a two-week recess after failing to agree on legislation to increase border security, create a guest-worker program and develop a legalization process.

Proponents of the latter called the system “earned citizenship,” while opponents decried it as “amnesty.”

With lawmakers returning to work Monday, President Bush reiterated his support for immigration legislation that would include a temporary guest-worker program. (Full story)

Bush called the proposal that bogged down in the Senate an “important compromise” and blamed the failure to pass it on “needless politics.” That proposal was based on legislation proposed by Sen. John McCain, an Arizona Republican, and Sen. Edward Kennedy, a Massachusetts Democrat.

Minority Leader Harry Reid said Monday, “The Senate can move forward on immigration if President Bush and the majority leader will stand up to those Republicans who are filibustering.”

A Republican leadership aide said last week that Majority Leader Bill Frist will bring immigration legislation back to the Senate floor by Memorial Day. (Full story)

The issue presents a delicate balancing act for Bush. His guest-worker program has support in the business community, and he has courted Latino support. But he also must deal with an outspoken segment of his conservative base demanding tougher restrictions on illegal immigration.

Republicans have been divided over the worker program and the legalization process.

Bush said Monday that the best way to enforce border security “besides making sure it’s modern and we’ve got manpower and equipment down there … is to come up with a rational plan that recognizes people coming here to work, and lets them do so on a temporary basis.”

The poll found opinions divided on a worker program that would allow people from other countries to stay in the United States for several months but require them to leave when that time was up, without a chance to apply for citizenship. That was favored by 47 percent and opposed by 45 percent.

Any immigration legislation the Senate passes would have to be reconciled with a plan passed by the House in December. The House version includes neither a guest-worker program nor a legalization process.

The House bill, which helped spark weeks of protests nationwide by supporters of illegal immigrants, included provisions to build 700 miles of fence along the border with Mexico and to make entering the country illegally a felony.

In the poll, Americans were split evenly over the fence proposal, with 47 percent favoring the idea and the same percentage opposing it.

A majority — 56 percent — opposed making illegal immigration a felony, while 39 percent favored it.

After Congress started its recess, the top Republicans in both the House and Senate indicated they would not support the felony provision. (Full story)

In the poll, 68 percent of those responding said they favored increasing penalties for employers who hire illegal immigrants, while 27 percent were opposed.

To KEvin and Caroline

Have you ever heard of the law of supply and demand? Cesar Chavez did, and he was against illegal uncontrolled immigration. Do you know who he was? Was he a racist? And Caroline, since you are so disparaging toward your fellow citizens who are barely surviving living paycheck to paycheck, I would like to see you personally working for near minimum wage.

I don’t get it when these peopele claim that the illegals are doing jobs that an American wouldn’t do. This is just bull—-. The reason that these illegals work these jobs is that they don’t have legal papers. Once they are legal, they would be leaving those farm jobs for other better paying jobs.

You think they are taking jobs away from Americans now, wait till they become legal. Then, there will be no barriers of who can and cannot do a particular job.

If we truely want to be fair about immigration, why should we give Mexicans an added advantage over the rest of the world just because they’re our neighbors. Every country should get a fair share of immigrants to the US. Out of the 12-20 millions, probably 80%+ are Mexicans. Eventhough African Americans have been in the US longer, they’re a smaller percentage of the total population than Mexicans.

If we truely want to be fair, we should let more Africans and Asians into this country and control the borders to get a good balanced/diversified pool of immigrants.

Poor, poor illegals always having to look over their shoulder, because ICE might pick them up, and they live in the shadows, in fear, and we must give them freedom to come out into the sunshine. Time out!
First illegal is illegal, what part do some of you not understand. In the 86 amnesty, the fear was raised that it would increase illegal crossings and overstays. Kenndy said then that it was not true and we would not have a million illegals in our city. That the amnesty would fix all the problems, along with increased border security and employer fines. Guess what … he was wrong then … What makes him right today about tomorrow? And he is one of the led folks of this act!! We gave amnesty to 2-3 million then and now it’s 20 million … how many will the next one be?
Nothing really happens to employers and the border patrol has more restrictions on what they can’t do than can do.
They (illegals)crossed the border or over stayed … they should be looking over their shoulders because they know they are wrong … otherwise why are they looking?
The ones that have been here the longest get the quickest break … is there a statue of limitations on entering illegally … or is it less illegal as the years pass?
Where is the personal responsibility for their actions … they knew they were wrong. Not make it a felony … why not? It’s a felony in Mexico to cross their border illegally, why shouldn’t be here.
Now Bush wants to remove the fines and back taxes, so much for paying in any way for their ‘mistake’.
Come out into the sunshine … they had no problem doing that during all the marches and rallies or getting in line for federal benefit programs, or crowding a street crossing waiting to be picked up for a job where they undercut decent wages.
We have to register all of them (illegals) so we know who is in the country because there might be a terrorist in the bunch … what makes anyone think that someone who is here to do harm is going to register or be fingerprinted.
Deport, deport, deport.
Yes it is possible, it is only impossible for the ones who do not want to take action, for whatever their reason is. It will cost less to deport than to keep. No it won’t happen overnite as folks are so fond of pointing out, but it can start in earnest, so it takes a couple of years … they have been here for years what’s the difference. 2-3 Trillion to keep 2-3 billion to deport … hmmm that doesn’t seem like a hard pick to me. Why do you think there is a flood of calls and visits by pro-illegal supporters in DC to stop the raids until the bill is decided???? … so no one misses the hand out!
For those that think it will not impact social security think again. The SSA already has in place an agreement with Mexico to let folks who work in both countries draw from both systems. Usually we strike this deal with developed countries that have a decent retirement system … but Mexico’s is not a decent one. And just how many American workers are in Mexico? So all the temp workers that will come and go, what 400,000 a year, will eventually work enough quarters here to go back and live in Mexico while the US pays them … what a deal. And that deal did not and does not go before Congress, the SSA has the power to make those deals. So much for sales tax on all the goods they will buy.
We are not the only country that has immigration laws, look around, they all do. Why? To control what is happening inside their borders and absorb the number into the population at a reasonable rate. We can’t help that we are a popular destination, but we can control who tells us what to do inside our own borders …demanding amnesty, flying the stripes & stars in the distress position, refusing to learn English ..even in free classes … tells me what I need to know.

Yes, I’m mad … call me racist or any other name you can think of but I’m a nationalist and after defending this country for 26 years I’m not about to sit by quietly and let fools give it away. Future generations do not need to come into a new 3rd world country.

Immigration law is a separate body of law from criminal or civil with its own enforcement agencies and court system. Violating immigration law itself, such as over staying a visitor’s visa, has never been a criminal offense, though many people who violate immigration laws go on to violate criminal statutes as well if they purchase forged documents such as Social Security cards. Most of immigration law is processed administratively, meaning that it is just a matter of red tape and going through a bureaucratic process to determine eligibility for a particular status. This is very different than either criminal or civil law procedures. Fees, fines and penalties have always been a part of immigration rules and regulations, and jail time is only a punishment when the violation has been determined to be criminal or when waiting for deportation. also present in immigration law has always been a way to adjust one’s status, meaning that even those who have entered or stayed without a visa can apply for one and have the petition adjudicated through the immigration court system, and if approved the applicant is, in a way, given “amnesty” after paying a fine, paying fees, and filing and paying any back taxes due. This procedure can be for students who want to adjust to an employment-based visa, for refugees who did not declare themselves upon entry, for undocumented immigrants who marry residents or US citizens, etc. All of these ordinary administrative procedures are now very lengthy because the US immigration service was crippled and has not been able to recover from the changes which took place after the attacks of 9/11 when the INS, which was part of the Justice Dept., was eliminated and the ICE was created as part of Homeland Security. The focus shifted at that time from one of processing applications for all kinds of visas in a fair, timely and orderly way to one of suspicion and hostility towards applicants and enforcement and punishment of violators. The general public attitude of hostility towards immigration which has been inflamed over the last couple of years has now made it very difficult to return to a normal process of looking at the law and its desperate need for reform given the actual circumstances in which the country finds itself. The fact is that millions of people have been crossing the border without a visa or staying in the country after a visa has expired every year now for quite a few years because we the citizens of the US and our own government has de facto allowed it to happen. This has been the best foreign aid program the US ever came up with for Mexico and Central America, and maybe for other countries as well. This has also fueled the US economy and US trade. If the undocumented immigrants can be processed through a new system, ANY new system, which the government can create to collect the fees, fines, taxes and penalties, and in exchange issue the proper documentation for a fresh start on a legal basis which allows for work and travel, never mind citizenship which would be far down the road into the future, then we will ALL be better off and maybe can look the world in the eye again without feeling ashamed of ourselves.

Bush is an #$%@

Outraged American May 25, 2007 · 9:09 am

Some interesting posts here by the type of people that Ronald Reagan called “hate mongers and Bigots“. It’s interesting that even a Republican like Reagan could see these people for what they are. Also, they often appear to be paranoid fear mongers.

Mike F.;


Judy V.;

I know this country has had a horrible history of bigotry, but when will it end? The kkk took off it’s hoods and are now the vigilante minute men. I am ashamed that there are still disgusting people like this in this great country.
GOD BLESS AMERICA – just not it’s haters.

this is to Outraged American: As I have posted before, have you heard of the law of supply and demand? As I have posted, Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration because of it depresses wages. Was he a racist?

Where’s the dam border wall At? We need it to keep Illegals out

Please stop using that silly racist rhetoric of yours, you know it doesn’t apply here. By the way, by the 1980’s Cesar Chavez was in favor of ALL immigration from Mexico. Remember, this country is built on immigrants. E PLURIBUS UNEM. GOD BLESS AMERICA.