: i disagree with your reasoning with Morrelonomicon. Even if they were to remove the GW from Morelo, the item would still be busted/problematic. The comparison to Raptors cloak is silly and the argument used to try and make raptors cloak more stat efficient is a stretch even within said framework. As for your point about there not being any real "vanguard" support items, I'd argue the new Zeke's is exactly what you are looking for. it even synergizes with her ultimate given how Incandescence works.
> i disagree with your reasoning with Morrelonomicon. Even if they were to remove the GW from Morelo, the item would still be busted/problematic. What do you disagree with, then? My exact point was that the statline and buildpath are good enough that the passive doesn't matter. > The comparison to Raptors cloak is silly How? You know what's silly? Raptor Cloak :D > As for your point about there not being any real "vanguard" support items, I'd argue the new Zeke's is exactly what you are looking for. Problem with Zeke's is that you need to design a partner to use it for. There doesn't seem to be a cooldown, but if your jungler is coming from another angle, you won't be able to target him as the Conduit holder until you've already engaged with the ultimate.
Rioter Comments
: ****Re: Targon's Stacks**** We did try a version of the starting items that removed the laning pattern but got a lot of feedback that it was missed. This was a surprisingly strong reaction in Targon users, as they liked having the ability to interact with the wave. We are looking at ways to mitigate the late game execution issues, however, as that remains a pain point. ****Re: Ancient Coin**** Lulu, and Karma (to a lesser extent Janna) still have the option of Spell Thief's, but we feel that Coin can still be a viable option for them - the coins when "dropped" do pop towards the champion, and have a set follow/pickup speed, so those are all levers we can use to tune the risk. ****Re: Zeke's Herald & Redemption**** For Midseason we mostly focused on Support starting items since we were adding a new component to them. The other support items will probably need a more holistic look to make sure we know what our goals are in terms of item coverage and that each item fits into that picture.
Fair point. How about expanding on the existing feature, then? Have the item "consume" an overflow stack periodically while sitting at 4. Or enable the end-tier item to either waveclear better or proc easier. Just like FQC loses the anti-farming drawback, FotM could gain a waveclear tool (proccing while alone, AoE?). And please don't shelf items again. You do this all the time, "core features first" and that procrastination creates dusted problems like Ohmwrecker that could have seen fun and fruitful iteration tests many times already.
: Support Item Changes - Midseason 2017
Good idea, good implementation. As far as addressing the problems it wanted to, this project seems pretty good. Things that are left untouched, however: * Later in the game Relic Shield/FotM procs are hard to achieve, as your teammates clear the waves in one sweep and don't let you have any fun. * Could the Spoils of War passive change once you finish the quest? Same probably goes for Ancient Coin. * I feel like Ancient Coin is still going to remain useless on shielders like Janna, Lulu and Karma, appealing to maybe healers like Soraka and Nami, with champions like Sona having both options viable but still opting for Spellthief for dem damages. With Talisman having armor it's a basically an alternative tank support item, and tank supports aren't even all the craze right now. * Stuff like Zeke's Herald remains unchanged and I don't know how I feel about it. This build path is a pain. * You could strip the damage portion off Redemption and it would still be a top-tier item. If leaving the damage, I'd go as far as making it the Rabadon of support items, adding a third AP component (Wisp/Codex) and making this a dilemma between finishing a "broken" expensive all-purpose item and rushing a completed specialized one.
: I actually had some changes to it that positioned it as a competitor to other HP/Armor items, but we chose to keep our focus mostly on setting up a good framework. That item has a long way to go before becoming useful, and I'm also not sure players actually _want_ that particular effect to be useful, so it's likely back to the drawing board on it (hopefully sooner rather than later).
It's definitely a fun and wanted effect, but I feel like it isn't even meant to be a pure tank item. A tank can just armor up and soak the damage. Short tower immunity is more of a fighter/assassin thing. Perhaps an item for AP assassins/support, perhaps an AD item. Raptor Cloak seems like a missed opportunity as well, hp regen is underappreciated in early laning. Also please consider that Ohmwrecker active needs to be double purpose. Without defensive purpose it's even more risky and stupid than a Mejai. I remember one iteration when it had a tower enhancement effect, just make it a local fortify.
: Midseason Durability Feedback
So many changes to durability items, some bold and commendable - and no change at all to Ohmwrecker? This was the perfect opportunity to do something about it.
Rioter Comments
: I hope you don't kill your idea too much. If all the plants become predictable, we'll fall back in the "optimal route" meta for the jungler and the role will become more complex and boring in the same time. If both teams were able to ping or know (written on the minimap) where the seeds are, it would solve the bad impression that some players have (especially those who didn't even test the changes on pbe..).
This. I feel like the Blast Cones change is overkill. Small variance would be appreciated.
: > After being unseen for at least 1 second, your next basic attack deals 50 (+200% Lethality) bonus true damage on hit. Won't this be a *huge* problem on Kha'zix? Any readings so far on the strength of this item on him and if he'll be receiving nerfs before it ships? Vayne might be problematic, but as you said, she'd have to build assassin over as/crit so there's a tradeoff. Kha builds assassin anyway. How does Abyssal compare now to before in terms of numbers? I expect it to be an overall nerf since Aegis' passive was removed. Why are we getting a third AD/MR item? What are the complications of an AD/Armor item (I know Atma's was a *little* busted) - is this combination of stats just out of the picture? And maybe a bit off topic - but I was expecting Rylai's to be included with this overhaul. Will it be coming soon? Any word on the direction it's going to be taking?
> Won't this be a *huge* problem on Kha'zix? I think they've reworked him with this item in mind. Hell, they might have even included Poacher's Knife as a part of the equation. > How does Abyssal compare now to before in terms of numbers? I expect it to be an overall nerf since Aegis' passive was removed. Nerf on all stages but the lategame against tanks. It will still be good in increasing your team's overall magic damage, especially against targets with high MR. It's also much better with Void Staff, as the flat MR reduction was applied before VS's % magic penetration. Though with Banner of Command losing AP the AP+MR itemization is pretty much Abyssal only. > And maybe a bit off topic - but I was expecting Rylai's to be included with this overhaul. Will it be coming soon? Any word on the direction it's going to be taking? Meddler has mentioned Rylai's changes will get shipped in 6.23. From what I understand they are backing out from a change to low AP + mana + CDR (due to community backlash and a small little fact that Mordekaiser would be left broken without it) and just nerfing the AP/slow slightly.
Rioter Comments
: Might as well remove armor pen altogether with those values.
Keep in mind lethality is just one part of the Dirk passive. The other part is OOC MS. Also notice a tiny little detail: dirk grants 20 Lethality, twice as much as the 10 flat arpen it used to have. Please chill.
: New Items dor AP champs
That's because Mages have just had their class-specific update in the midseason, which introduced {{item:3802}} Lost Chapter, {{item:3152}} DFG replacement, {{item:3030}} that item nobody uses, and broke {{item:3116}} Rylais. Preseason nerfs Abyssal (yay!), removes the Aegis aura and supposedly nerfs Rylais, though we don't know yet how.
: > Locket seems underwhelming, though. I understand that the shield is strong - and I love the decaying change, as it promotes skillful use of the active - but the loss of both health and, what's more important, CDR, is going to hurt some tank supports. CDR loss is pretty impactful, I agree - but it was a major contributor of the 'man, every support build seems to overcap on CDR' issues. While it does lose a large chunk of health (and thus reasons to get the item early) - it has +30 Armor, +15 MR in comparison. Armor + MR on the same item mimics a % Health boost to a certain extent so the loss isn't as bad as I think it might be. Does hurt it in the dedicated anti-magic space - were it not for the fact that it'll have more MR than the live version. The shield active is actually crazy though. I think the best shield I've seen blocked 2700 damage in a team fight. (It has a little tooltip tracker on it displaying the damage you've blocked and your best shield.) > Redemption is great. Everyone who hasn't done that already, try it on Bard. It lines up perfectly with your ultimate. I like how it doesn't have CDR, as it's not an item to rush in lane. It.. it does have CDR. It builds out of Spoopy Idol which has CDr innately. > I believe one of the following changes would help: > CDR on Eye of the Equinox CDR on EoE might be interesting in the long run. I'll think about that for the future. > Glacial Shroud or Kindlegem in the build path of Knight's Vow When we tried Kindlegem on Knight's Vow - we found that we made an item that top laners mostly got. While not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself - there were playtests were there were essentially more Knights than people to bond to. :p > Zeke's Harbinger Amp Tomes replaced with Aether Wisp Harbinger is kind of a terrifying item when strong - so we're being cautious about it. We also have to watch movement speed creep as we've just added one more major form of it in Knight's Vow. > Buff Ohmwrecker (just get the supportanks a good Kindlegem upgrade) Yeah. Our reworks for this item keep failing or other things keep succeeding better than it. >_< > This would be pretty much my one and only question here - are supportanks not supposed to get CDR? Zeke's Harbinger doesn't really suit most tanks and with both Locket and Knight's Vow not having it, tank supports are going to have a really hard time getting there. We want to push support tanks back into considering Frozen Heart as an important pickup for them - hence the cost reduction. They share a lot of CDR itemization with other roles - but Warmog's (Health), Frozen Heart (Armor) and Spirit Visage (MR) should be their three primary CDR options outside of things they get innately like Face of the Mountain. While that may be fairly limited - Banner is also retuned to act as a CDR source for them if they want to aid their team in pushing.
What a brain fart, Yeah Redemption does have CDR indeed. Here is the problem now: Enchanters get a bunch of Idol upgrades to rush and cap CDR quickly, or Athenes to cap it instantly with eyestone+ionians. Meanwhile tank items such as Knight's Vow and Locket do not grant CDR. The problem is that if you're a support tank, you value your team's safety way over your own, so items like FH or SV are a lategame dream, not a rushed necessity. FH is indeed convenient to help your team against specific targets, but it's quite expensive and niche (won't do squat against that roaming LB). I get that no-CDR Locket is much more convenient for all supports, including enchanters who are going to always cap CDR before that - but Knight's Vow could really use it. Same goes for Righteous Glory, really, even for toplane purposes. Overall unless we want it to be THE core supportank item, I think it's a little bit overloaded. It would be worth picking up for the damage redirection alone, but with MS and healing on it, it's simply helluva strong. And if it's going to end up as the next big thing, having no cdr will feel bad, and a class trait of tank supports will be "you don't get cdr unless in the lategame". Note how tank supports would really really prefer mobis or merc treads over ionians. Also note how a tank rushing knights vow after eyestone gets 0 cdr in what in a pro game constitutes for an endgame build. Last but not least remember how meh felt building Forbidden Idol when it didn't have shielding power, and how meh sitting on Crystalline Bracer still feels. We had two of those as a recipe part once, it was the previous edition of Warmogs and nobody really bought, not in lane. --- I'd experiment by changing that Bracer on Righteous Glory to a Kindlegem. Observe the results. That one is supposed to be a toplane item anyway, right? I'd bet some tank supports would go for it if it had CDR. --- Ohmwrecker - Just give that damn item a use on defending side. Zzrot works because you can unpush waves with it. Make it usable on allied towers, giving them splash damage if not a full immunity. 20% CDR wouldn't hurt either, Zzrot is a really impressive bulk of stats, while Ohmwrecker is very meh in comparison to top hits like DMP, Sunfire or Omen. You don't need to rework it, just to broaden its usage from where it stands now.
: [PBE Support Itemization Notes - 6.22] Redemption, Knight's Vow, Ardent Censer, Crucible, Locket...
Yay, items! Played around with a few of those and what I can say is: * Aegis change is pretty neat. Broken set of stats, but accessible only to supports. * Banner of Command looks extremely promising. Might see play on some specific solo lane picks. * Locket seems underwhelming, though. I understand that the shield is strong - and I love the decaying change, as it promotes skillful use of the active - but the loss of both health and, what's more important, CDR, is going to hurt some tank supports. * Enchanter items changes are pretty dope. Looking forward to seeing some more occasional Karma mid. Censer might even work out on support Lux now. The regulars should be satisfied. * Redemption is great. Everyone who hasn't done that already, try it on Bard. It lines up perfectly with your ultimate. ~~I like how it doesn't have CDR, as it's not an item to rush in lane.~~ (*I'm an idiot, it does indeed have CDR. Well, it seems like enchanter supports will stil overshoot CDR like crazy*) * Knight's Vow - AMAZING item, definitely one to rush, but I'm not sold on the statline here. Paired with the fact that Eye of the Equinox is the only eyestone to grant zero CDR, tank supports are going to have some serious problems to get CDR. Is that intended? This would be pretty much my one and only question here - are supportanks not supposed to get CDR? Zeke's Harbinger doesn't really suit most tanks and with both Locket and Knight's Vow not having it, tank supports are going to have a really hard time getting there. I believe one of the following changes would help: * CDR on Eye of the Equinox * Glacial Shroud or Kindlegem in the build path of Knight's Vow * Zeke's Harbinger Amp Tomes replaced with Aether Wisp * Buff Ohmwrecker (just get the supportanks a good Kindlegem upgrade) Happy to participate in those again ;)
: Lethality Info
Seems like a good idea overall. Things to fix: * Runes - hybrid marks seem to display properly, but flat arpen ones are labeled as ?????? * HUD - when you press C, flat armor penetration is displayed as 0 * Why does Duskblade's damage scale with Lethality?
: Items should be one dimensional, the decision making to what item to buy should be the dynamic aspect. You can have a % true damage nuke to help kill tanks, but needs to be as a different item dedicated to that. This way you have a decision between needing an AoE heal or aiding in taking down the enemy tank based on game circumstance. And yes I understand they are going for dynamic gameplay here, but items shouldn't have dynamic gameplay, just dynamic decision making to buy this item over that item and vice-versa.
> Items should be one dimensional Just no. BotRK works for both chasing and peeling. Talisman works for both engaging and disengaging. Same with Redemption.
: Banner of Command and Locket of the Iron Solari Feedback:
Magic damage immunity is the main reason Banner exists. It's meant to create an inevitable push paired with the Baron buff, as most long-ranged damage that can clear the siege minion is magical. Locket is probably going to retain its MR since it's supposed to be an anti-magic item. If it had Health, it would also be strong against general damage. But I agree it could use some CDR, tanks seem to lack that.
: Redemption Feedback:
Dual use. Play one game as Bard with it and you'll realize the item is perfectly fine. It's meant to serve as a nuke in some cases, and a heal in others. It's perfect for contesting objectives. If you push you get healed, if they push they get damaged. If anything I'd complain about tank supports having issues with CDR now that Locket has lost it. Unlike enchanter supports, tank supports do not have good CDR itemization.
: Edge of Night Feedback: Remove the Magic Resistance
As a mage main, I believe the item is pretty balanced. Channeling for 1.5 s requires precise preparation. It is NOT a Banshee's Veil - it's better in some cases (RIP Karthus) and worse in others. However, I do not think it's a good idea to let it exist alongside Malmortius and Scimitar. Stacking those 3 items all at once makes any AD champion pretty much immune to magic. The only balance lever I see for it is the fact that Aegis aura is gone. That might justify it. --- EDIT: I've played around using the item on AD champions. Doesn't seem too OP. You can charge it while moving, but never in combat, as damage breaks the channel. An important note here is that Malmortius no longer has arpen, so AD champions like Zed might give up on rushing Hexdrinker.
: [Assassins] Katarina Feedback Thread
Did you consider supporting AD builds ss well as / in place of AP ones? Katarina's character design screams "blades", not "spellbooks".
: Sona Learnings
Sona needs more drastic changes. Auras are always going to feel weaker than they actually are. I'd consider making her LoL's Invoker. Make the full 3 ability sequence matter and affect her power chord or Crescendo. Plays well with the music performance theme.
: Mordekaiser need up for the new mage meta
Nobody has ever bought WotA on Morde anyway.
: Maybe Air toward White and Fire _slightly_ toward Red? White, Brown, Red and Blue seem distinctive enough. Plus, is it Purple for Elder?
We've already had white Air, they've just moved away from it. Red-Yellow-Green-Blue-Purple is a very very poular elemental color scheme, with Purple being "aether" or "darkness".
Rioter Comments
: Giving CDR to Zhonya and Abyssal might backfire on mages
For those who like to look at item drafts, example changes (throwing ideas, let's see what sticks) > **Morellonomicon** * Recipe: Lost Chapter + Fiendish Codex + Blasting Wand + 150g (total 2900g, same as current PBE cost) Recipe changed a bit. Morello remains the "big" stat stick at 100 AP, 20% CDR and 400 mana, just with a *meh* passive as it used to be. > **Rite of Ruin** * Recipe: Lost Chapter + Glacial Shroud + Blasting Wand + 150g (total cost 2900g) * +80 AP, +10% CDR, +30 armor, +600 mana * Passive: Gain 5% CDR for every turret that was destroyed this game (maximum 20% CDR). * Passive: Gains charges upon moving or killing enemies, up to 300 charges. Attacking structures expends 50 charges to deal 100 (+15% AP) bonus true damage and restore 5% of your maximum mana. Basically an anti-roaming item. Enemy roams a lot? Push the lane, crush the towers, scale up. In the lategame, a guaranteed 30% CDR purchase. Overkill for some champions, godsend for others. > **Pox Arcana** * Recipe: Lost Chapter + Fiendish Codex + Forbidden Idol + 550g (total cost 2900g) * +60 AP, +10% CDR, +300 mana, +50% mana regeneration * Passive: Applies a stack of Pox for 10 seconds whenever you deal ability damage, stacking up to 5 times. You gain 5% CDR per champion affected by Pox, up to 20%. * Active: Deals 100 magic damage plus 20 (+5% AP) per stack of Pox (maximum of 200 (+25% AP)) to all nearby enemies affected by Pox, and restores 5% of your maximum mana for every Pox stack harvested. 60 second cooldown. Hybrid burst/battlemage item. It doesn't guarantee you max CDR for poke purposes, so artillery might feel left out unless they're REALLY successful, but while in full combat, it scales up to 30% CDR. It also has some minor flat mana regeneration smuggled in. > **Netherstride Grimoire** * Recipe: Lost Chapter + Fiendish Codex + Aether Wisp + 250g (total cost 2900g) * +100 AP, +10% CDR, +300 mana, +5% movement speed * Inherits Lost Chapter passive (20% mana regen on kill/assist) * Passive: Gain 10% movement speed for 2 seconds whenever you deal ability damage. Another AP-CDR-mana stat stick alternative to Morello. > Rylai's Crystal Scepter * Recipe: Needlessly Large Rod + Sapphire Crystal + Crystalline Bracer + 950g (total cost: 3200g) * +100 AP, +200 health, +50% health regen, +300 mana * Passive unchanged Shifting some of the Rylai's power from flat health to mana. could give up health completely, even going in favour of Lost Chapter or Glacial Shroud. > Void Staff * Recipe: Blasting Wand + 550g (total cost: 1400g) * +40 AP, +25% magic penetration Pay 550g, get some % mpen right away. Good deal when someone armored up over 100 MR. > Visarya's Wand of Spellbreaking * Recipe: Void Staff + Fiendish Codex + 900g (total cost: 3200g) * +70 AP, +10% CDR, +35% magic penetration * Passive: Your basic attacks deal bonus true damage equal to target's Magic Resistance. 2 second cooldown. VS option 1. Best against targets with high magic resistance, but low health threshhold. > Liandry's Staff of Torment * Recipe: Void Staff + Aether Wisp + 950g (total cost: 3200g) * +70 AP, +5% MS, +35% magic penetration * Liandry's passive (moved here, or existing in two items) VS option 2. The current Liandry's honestly makes no sense - why flat mpen with % health damage? If you want to burn down tanks, you need % mpen, not flat. Flat mpen on HG is oppressive against squishies, making HG contradict with its upgrade's anti-tank purpose.
Rioter Comments
: Dragons stacking and possible improvements (Riot please read, I want to get my point across)
Please learn how to divide text into paragraphs. It's really difficult to get through this block of text.
: 1050 dmg +100% ap and true dmg all on his AOE ULT? i dont like how everythings nerfed while ult is broken now
It's a common trend in this update, Brand got the same treatment. Significantly stronger around his ultimate, weaker otherwise. I think their goal here was to make the laser beam the true moment of DAMAGE instead of just a 4th damaging spell. I'm not sure how this will work out.
: MYMU - Malzahar Discussion
AD jungle Malzahar is busted. Give him two items and he can solo baron.
: Do you envision this Brand as more of a support or a mid laner now?
With Blaze nerfed at levels 1-2 and AP scaling added to it, I dare say he's very much more a mid laner than a support. the whole gimmick of burning people down with Spellthief's Edge is no longer as effective. Sure, his level 6 all-in 2v2 is terrifying, but he's significantly weaker before that.
: > [{quoted}](name=Paris Hilton,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=VbtPmvpU,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-04-19T20:26:09.552+0000) > > I know you guys don&#x27;t balance champions based on maps other than Summoners Rift, and I am not asking you to do so, but do you guys have any info on how Brand&#x27;s new passive AOE interacts with ARAM, as champions are usually bundled up together? I&#x27;m really excited to see how strong it can be! > The reworks, especially Brand&#x27;s, seem great on paper and I&#x27;ll love to give more feedback as soon as I get a chance to test them. Good job! I'll admit I'm a little scared of what he'll do on ARAM XD
It's hard to get the bombs snowball without the ult. He should be fine on ARAM, at least he still needs to get in short range to do stuff. He will be nowhere near the level of Lux.
: I think most Brand players will want Rylai's first once they're experienced with the champ, but if you're just learning him (which are the people who rec items are typically for), going no mana is pretty punishing. As for Sorc v Ion, that's a lot closer. I could see either -- CDR is also really strong for getting more bombs etc.
Anyway, right now his Recommended Core is: boots, Catalyst, NLR. That made much more sense in the version where RoA built out of NLR. You might want to change that - I don't think anyone would feel good having both RoA and Rylai, that's way too much gold dumped into health. CDR for more bombs would be nice if the bombs didn't require a full combo, which is hard to get. Also raw CDR without mana sustain to back it up is not that good. Sorcs contribute to Brand's raw burst. They (and HG) might be weaker now that Blaze got severely nerfed, but going full mpen should remain one of the options.
: MYMU - Brand Discussion
Impressions after the first two games: * The new kit feels much better. Especially the ultimate. And the bomb is hilarious. * The passive, though, without stacking seems to deal no damage at all. * The recommended items - WTF? Why would he want RoA over Rylais, or Ionian Boots over Sorc Shoes?
: Brand main here. Curious as to why his ult remained the same with it being the largest complaint about his kit. It did and still feels so out of place to the rest of what he does. Another thing about his ult. On live if a champion near minions is lit by the passive and the minions are not, when ulted, the ult will hit the champ but then only bounce around minions and not return to the champ. Is or can this be fixed as it really saps most of what his ult can do in lane. If this is intentional then so be it.
It always prioritizes the champions, slows targets that were ablaze already, but deals less base damage. It feels much better now.
: MYMU - Brand Discussion
Have you considered balancing him not for mid or support, but the botlane carry role instead? He seems to be designed for 2v2 lanes now, but we've already had him in the support role once and it wasn't fun for anyone.
: Asking out of curiosity...how can S@20 make money but Riot wouldn't?
I'm not interested with conducting a discussion with people who downvote posts that bring up arguments they disagree with. I gave you an answer and you chose to ignore it. Have fun.
: You could be right but when Riot itself presents those changes its a lot easier than the work S@20 has to put in. If they can update it under 30 mins we can be sure Riot can do it in less time or even before patch. I mean to say Riot would know for certain the values they are about to change right? They don't mess random values on random champions or items. They would have it documented for programmers to make those changes : won't you agree?
This is cost. Manpower. Money. Wages. S@20 makes good money off it. Riot wouldn't. There is literally no reason for them to document every single deploy if fans are going to do that for them.
: Riot why do we need to check Surrenderat20 after every PBE patch? Why not have those changes here?
Because it takes a shitload of work time to prepare and proofread such "patch notes". And considering how often stuff leaks onto PBE that wasn't supposed to be there, this could be a nightmare to maintain.
: Can you provide me anything more specific on what you would consider unique item support? From my point of view, Rylai's and Torment already favor DoT mages more so than most - while things like Thunderlord's also seem prime to be much better on DoT champions - so I'm likely missing something here about what type of support you're looking for. > Is the new Catalyst still going to be a component of Righteous Glory? If so, how are the stats of that item going to be affected (if at all) and are you concerned that junglers will start using Catalyst in the early game in place of Hunter's Potion for the champions that favor it so that they could pick up a Righteous Glory later? Catalyst is a component of Righteous Glory, and yes, it does give Tanks the ability to spec into Catalyst's cyclical sustain. It's important to note that this version of Catalyst is actually a far weaker sustain tool early than Catalyst's level up heal so I'm not sure that the jungle worry is entirely spot on. What this Catalyst does is scale into the later parts of the game and be a nice little boost for extended encounters.
> Can you provide me anything more specific on what you would consider unique item support? > From my point of view, Rylai's and Torment already favor DoT mages more so than most - while things like Thunderlord's also seem prime to be much better on DoT champions - so I'm likely missing something here about what type of support you're looking for. First off, I think you meant Deathfire Touch, not Thunderlord's. Second, the issue with DoT mages is that Liandrylai gives you a huge chunk of health that you don't necessarily need if you're doing your job correctly as Brand or Vel'Koz. It's just a huge tax. And now with Hextech Rocket Belt in, many immobile mages would love that item, but the health tax is nearing absurd amounts. I'd really consider taking some health away from Rylai's Crystal Scepter and shifting it towards mana. Lost Chapter seems like a decent candidate there, with Giant's Belt removed or downgraded to Crystalline Bracer.
Are you sure Abyssal is not going to become even more cornerstone midlane rush for the likes of LeBlanc and Ahri? I don't see how adding CDR to it prevents people from building it en masse in multiple AP comps. This item is busted, heavily favouring short-ranged mages and assassins over long-ranged ones. Does Seeker's Armguard remain unchanged? One of the problems of AP-vs-AD matchups is how punishing for mana-reliant mages is to go for Armguard, while Hexdrinker users don't usually have the same problems with mana. Will Rigtheous Glory gain Catalyst's passive? This item is kinda forgotten right now. How about Rylai's Crystal Scepter? That item could use some mana regen in place of health, thematically (considering Crystal Maiden's mana-giving Arcane Aura). Does this mean Forbidden Idol now builds solely into Talisman (please considier giving it back flat MS), Censer and Crucible? --- Most importantly: how do you see the role of mages in the lategame? ADCs have access to strong mana replenishment in the form of Essence Reaver that makes their mana worries pretty much nonexistent. How are mages supposed to compete?
Rioter Comments
: [Twisted Treeline] You loose 10% crit when you finish Lord Van Damm's Pillager.
Give it a patch or two before they take a look at auxillary maps.
: [Suggestion] Keystone Masteries @Riot gipsylord, Squad5, Stashu
Because that's the whole point of the new system. Picking Thunderlord's Decree comes at a price. That price is speccing into Cunning, and giving up on some interesting tier 3 masteries from other trees, like the % penetration one. Instead, you are given access to the flat penetration, which until some point is actually more effective, especially when considering magic damage. Overall: * Ferocity - lategame DPS (ADCs, AS fighters, DoT mages) * Cunning - early game burst (assassins, caster supports, burst mages) * Resolve - innate sustain and durability (juggernauts, tanks, tank supports) This division helps balancing some champions - by speccing deep into Ferocity, you might not make use of half of your masteries in the early game; by speccing deep into Cunning, your lategame might be a bit weaker.
: New Masteries - Build Tips and Theory Crafting
If you have any questions or feedback about the mastery calculator itself, feel free to ask them here or via Reddit. It's been even translated into Russian and Mandarin :D --- Notes: * Some DPS mages like Brand or, obviously, Rumble, might prefer Merciless over Meditation, to secure kills without other finishing mechanisms. * In a nutshell, Ferocity is about lategame DPS, and Cunning provides early game burst. Support Zyra/Brand will probably consider 12/18/0 instead. * Vampirism seems to trump Natural Talent at all stages of the game, but in reality they both kinda suck. Let's assume you deal 500 AoE damage and 500 single-target damage in a single spell rotation - with 2% spellvamp that's just 15 health gained. This is less than Feast. * Thunderlord's Decree is probably THE keystone to take in most cases, but Stormraider's Surge might prove equally attractive on select champions. Time will tell. * Tank keystones seem to be pretty straightforward: * Solo lane? Grasp of the Undying. * Duo lane? Bond of Stone. * Jungle? Strength of the Ages... just kidding, Bond of Stone, too (unless it punishes you for having more than one in one team)
: You're right, forgot about that. For some reason I've associated Jaurim's Fist with only replacing the previous AD components, whereas it's replaced Giant's Belt.
BTW are you Emptylord from the wiki? Hi, Lukeatlook here, I'm just occasionally helping out but maybe you know me :P
: They could change it to 15 (+25% base AD) on Sterak's. But for 25% base AD to surpass 15 AD you only need 60 base AD. Most champions have ~50 at level one with most have over 60 by level 4.
You missed the part where Sterak's Gage builds out of Jaurim's Fist and Long Sword, having 25 base Ad in its components. It's possible to solve this problem by removing the Long Sword from the reicpe, but changing Jaurim's Fist solves both Gage and Mallet.
: Ruby Crystal + Pickaxe + Jaurim's Fist = Frozen Mallet loses 5 AD
Same problem occurs with Sterak's Gage - unless you have more than 100 base AD, you're losing AD when upgrading it. Both problems would have been solved if Jaurim's Fist granted only 10 AD. Lower the price or add in a Ruby Crystal to compensate (all its upgrades have a second Ruby Crystal as a component, cmon), and voila. I mean, currently Jaurim's Fist costs 1200g, is worth 925g on purchase, and 1325g (+400) once fully stacked. That's... barely comparable with other similar items like Dirk, Warhammer, or Phage. You're better off just buying ruby crystals and longswords. Compare it with Seeker's Armguard, which starts off at 925g as well, but stacks up 626.25g worth of stats. The best course of action would be changing Jaurim's Fist to: * Recipe: {{item:1036}} Long Sword + {{item:1028}} Ruby Crystal + {{item:1028}} Ruby Crystal + 150g (total cost increased to 1300g from 1200g) * +10 AD, +300 health, passive unchanged * (Remove Ruby Crystal from item recipes for Sterak's Gage, Frozen Mallet and Titanic Hydra) And there, no upgrades lose any AD.
: please someone answer my comment i want to be able to find this post again without having to use the search engine
it's a lways possible they'll shake up the things a lot and ill make another thread like this - unless you just want to archive this and laugh at me in 3 months :D
: I agree pretty much with all your assessments and there are a few points I would like to add. * {{item:3050}} with the amount of crit chance that is achievable now (90% off just 3 items) Zeke's seems a bit redundant as the 50% crit it provides is usually well over the crit cap on your carry. * {{item:3074}}{{item:3748}} I disagree with riot making titanic and ravenous interchangeable for free, they have identities as separate items and their logic for why they should be interchangeable is rubbish (if I can change RH and TH because they are similar why can't I change Iceborne gauntlet and Lichebane? they're similar right [this is just an example i don't actually think you should be able to interchange sheen items]) * I personally feel that riot have been stretching for items when perfectly balanced items have existed on other maps for quite some time. {{item:3137}} {{item:3184}} {{item:3104}} {{item:3180}} {{item:3084}} {{item:3185}} I would like riot to add these onto summoners rift at least for a trial period. * I'm also a little dissapointed that dead man's plate{{item:3742}} and staff of flowing water{{item:3744}} were the only items from black market brawlers to make it into preseason (so far), there were plenty of items that had a strong identity on the rift. for example where is mirage blade? that item would have been fantastic addidtion to the marksman update. * Also these new marksman items have been fantastic addition for crit ADC's but has really left other forms of ADC in the dust, Varus is still as strong as he was but the changes to flat AD builds will hurt him, Kallista one of the true non conformative ADC's scaling off attack speed but not crit has had most of her itemisation gutted. I expected riot to create 3 ADC types: Caster, Crit and on hit however only the crit users got itemisation buffs.
Zeke's - agreed, which is why I think adding MS to it won't be an overkill. Exchanging Hydras - agreed again. These are way too different. Items from other maps - my draft of Wit's End is based on Dervish Blade, but for the other's it's not so easy. Wicked Hatchet upgrades go a bit against the idea of high DPS ADC with the DoT application, Bloodmail was initially conceived as a Warmog's without stacking (that was a LONG time ago) and Odyn's Veil is a replacement for Banshee, and a champion having both would be way too punishing to magic damage dealers. Mirage Blade would have potentially added that Kalista frustration factor to everyone. I don't think it's the best idea. But some other items, like Martyr's Gambit and Murksphere, were definitely fun. Were they balanced, though? Trickster's Glass surely wasn't. I think some ADCs might consider getting into burst masteries (Cunning, particularly Thunderlord's Decree).
: 30 seconds is too long a CD for thunderlord's decree.
Screw it, I'm gonna say this: Make Thunderlord's Decree OP for a patch or two. Make people switch over from blindly going "Offence" (Ferocity) to considering "Utility" (Cunning). People won't realize that Cunning = burst and Ferocity = DPS if the masteries are balanced. They need a little push. And it's quite possible that Decree needs a buff anyway.
Show more


Level 30 (PBE)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion