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Ugandan Newspaper Publishes Homosexual List; Interim Ukrainian President Warns Of Possible Separatist Movement; The Economics of Cocoa Certification; Turkish Prime Minister Faces Corruption Allegations

Aired February 25, 2014 - 15:00   ET


BECKY ANDERSON, HOST: Well, the potential and perils of a future Ukraine divided, the country's interim president warning of dangerous signs of separatism. Tonight, a look at how Ukraine's divisive past threatens to haunt the country's future.

Also this hour, under threat in Uganda. A newspaper there publishes the names of people it says are homosexuals. We speak to an American missionary said to have influenced Uganda's tough new anti-gay law.

And as Paris Fashion Week gets underway, we take you behind the scenes of one of the world's most luxury brands.


ANDERSON: A very good evening.

We begin tonight with Ukraine, a country edging closer to the edge of economic collapse and a greater political uncertainty. The country's new leaders haven't been able so far, at least, to form a unity provisional government. They say that efforts have been delayed until Thursday. But that hasn't stopped this man, former boxing champion Vitaly Klitschko to throw his hat in the ring for the May election for what is -- or should be -- a permanent government.

He is now running to replace Viktor Yanukoych as the country's president. Remember him? That is the ousted president who still is on the run. He's still considered in charge, especially in the Russian speaking east of the country. And it's the political fallout from his departure that is now threatening the actual unity of the country.

Well, our correspondents working both sides of what is an increasingly complex story with far reaching global consequences. Phil Black monitoring the latest developments from the capital Kiev. And Fred Pleitgen is in the Black Sea town of Sevastopol to the east.

Phil, let's start with you. What is the very latest from there?

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Becky, the most important issues affecting this country are now really being thrashed out behind closed doors. Firstly, the establishment of an interim government. It was supposed to happen by today, but they didn't meet the deadline.

What they're trying to do is come up with a cabinet of ministers and officials that represents all the main opposition parties that opposed the former president Viktor Yanukovych that includes technocrats, that includes some of the people's heroes that emerged through the struggle and occupation of Independence Square.

They've now set a new deadline -- Thursday. That is when parliament is expected to vote. And this government should take office. They can't afford to delay, because of that other issue that you mentioned, the economic crisis facing this country.

The other details that need to get sorted are those in any possible international finance plan.

Now we've heard more from the international community today indicating there is great will -- goodwill -- to help the Ukrainian government and the people of Ukraine, but they've also indicated countries like the U.S. and Germany that there needs to be a very definite process.

First of all, the government is formed, the government will then negotiate with the International Monetary Fund, commit to making a series of very difficult, but much needed economic reforms, which could very likely impact harshly on some of the lowest income people in this country. And then after that, countries like the United States say they are prepared to contribute a little more to try and soften the blow of the economic difficulties to come, Becky.

ANDERSON: Phil, thank you for that.

Fred, a successful future for Ukraine needs the inclusion, of course, of the east and the south in any national dialogue. Is it clear at this stage whether that is a possibility?

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORREPSONDENT: Well, it certainly still seems to be a possibility, but at this point it doesn't seem to be going in that direction, Becky. But we're seeing right now here on the streets of Sevastopol is that the city here has actually elected a new mayor who the central government says is not legitimate, but that mayor tonight came out in front of a crowd of thousands and said that he is (inaudible) tomorrow, people here can start signing up for it tomorrow. And he's, quote, going to defend Sevastopol against the forces that come from Kiev.

There's a lot of fear here among the pro-Russian population -- and it is about 60 percent of the city who are Russians -- and a lot of Russians also live here who work with the Black Sea fleet. And they fear that their language could be marginalized, that Russian culture could be marginalized, and they even fear that they might actually be ousted from this place.

A lot of these people look to Moscow and not to Kiev for guidance. So clearly right now there is a sentiment of not wanting to work together with the new government in Kiev.

I wouldn't call it separatism just yet, even though I know the new president said that. They are quite reluctant to use that word at this point in time, but it could clearly go in that direction, a lot of that is going to depend what that new government in Kiev does now, whether it holds out the hand to these Russian people and tries to bring them into that process or whether they try to put in place laws that the Russians feel might include them -- might exclude them from society.

So right now it really is up in the air. It's a very tense situation here in this town, one that could go either way at this point in time. And that goes for the entire Crimean and also for large parts of the east of Ukraine, Becky.

ANDERSON: Fred, lest we forget there is a president on the run as we speak. Any more details on where he might be?

PLEITGEN: There's absolutely no details. The latest that we've been hearing is that he was apparently sighted here in the Crimean yesterday, that he -- or the day before yesterday that he was in one of his residences in the center of the island here. Some speculate that he might have actually come here to Sevastopol and might have tried to flee onto the Russian base. It really is unclear whether or not that actually happened.

There were, of course, those rumors that happened over the weekend that he was trying to go to -- fly to Russia from there. So right now it is really unclear.

But one of the things that we always have to keep in mind is that Viktor Yanukovych is not only unpopular in the west of Ukraine and Kiev, he's also very, very unpopular with the Russian population here in Ukraine for very different reasons. They feel that he sold the security forces in Kiev out. They feel that he sold them out. And they also acknowledge that there was a lot of corruption within the Yanukovych government.

So this is not a politician who is very popular here, who would have very much support here. So it is unclear how much he could actually go into hiding in this part of the country. But he certainly would still have the best chances here.

But again, at this point in time, it's absolutely unclear where he is. There are no clues. There's a lot of rumors, though, flying around. But you also feel speaking to a lot of the top level politicians in this part of the country and also I was just in the east of the country they're starting to move on from Viktor Yanukovych. They understand that Viktor Yanukovych is not going to be a factor in this country anymore and they're either trying to arrange themselves with Kiev or as these people here are trying to do their own thing, Becky.

ANDERSON: Fascinating. OK, and thank you for that.

Well, to understand the current conflict in Ukraine, we've got to step back a bit albeit briefly to take a look at some of the key moments in its history. Ukraine became one of the republics of the Soviet Union in 1922. Now from the beginning, Ukraine was the second most important Soviet republic economically and politically behind only the Russian republic.

Now playing little brother, though, to Russia did come at a price. Soviet leaders closely controlled the country, aware of its strong nationalist sentiments. In the early 30s, Joseph Stalin's collective farming policies sparked a famine that resulted in the starvation and death of millions of Ukrainians.

After that, Stalin sent large numbers of Russians to populate the eastern part of the country. During World War II Ukraine became a bloody battleground between Nazi Germany and the Red Army. After the war, it emerged as the center of the Soviet arms industry and a major military outpost, home of course to the Soviet Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol where we've just spoken to Fred.

With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine became an independent state. These historic legacies have not gone away. Take a look at this map.

Russian is a native language in the eastern and southern regions, but as you travel westward, the percentage of people who identified that as their first language falls dramatically.

Well, it's an old cliche, but in the case of Ukraine it is a fitting one, a week is an awful long time in politics. Witness the demise of the iron fist of authoritarian leadership to be replaced in the short-term at least by what will be a provisional government striving to reflect the will of the people. But divisions run deep. What chance the ghost of Ukraine past appears to haunt its future.

Well, Ian Bremmer is the president and founder of the political risk consultancy Eurasia Group joining us tonight. Short-term, Ian, who do you expect to lead the country?

IAN BREMMER, PRESIDENT, EURASIA GROUP: You know, short-term it's going to be Ukrainian opposition that probably will not include Yanukovych's party of regions, despite the fact that many of them bolted from him when it was evident that he was going to be voted out, albeit illegally by the parliament.

The question is if that's not really unity government, which is the deal that was signed by the opposition leaders and the president at that point, and the European foreign ministers as well, then number one do you get IMF support? I think it's an open question. On balance, the answer is probably yes.

And then secondly, what do the Russians do? And the Russians are going to be very unhappy with that outcome.

You and I are talking about Ukraine today. In six months we won't be, but the Russians will still be there. And their ability to close this place down to everybody but Russia is pretty significant.

ANDERSON: And that is what I want to talk about next.

Russia pretty much yet to show its hand certainly over the past what 72, sort of 90 hours. What is your guess at Putin's next move?

BREMMER: Well, I think he is showing his hand by being pretty cautious. Lavrov, the foreign minister, has come out now in the past 24 hours and basically said, look, you know, you shouldn't be forcing them to choose between Russia and Europe, which is a little bit rich coming from the Russian government. But there's plenty of hypocrisy from every side here to go around.

The Russians are going to bide their time a little bit, at least unless it becomes apparent that the Ukrainians are going to squeeze the Russian influence completely out of the governance process. And then we might see something else.

But having said that -- no, because you would see already the Crimean government such as it is, which of course was not a part of Ukraine when it came into the Soviet Union, that was added under Stalin, it's a majority Russian population. There is a Russian military base there. There is a naval infantry division there. If the Russians want them to secede, they will.

So this is -- it's clear from the Kremlin that right now it's you can cause trouble, you can put Russian flags up, you're not going to secede.

But the potential for this to get out of hand is significant.

ANDERSON: Ian, how credible is the threat of separation across the entire country? And if that were to happen, what would the consequences be?

BREMMER: In the near-term it's not very plausible at all for two reasons. First, is because if there were a split it would be -- at this point it would be largely Crimea and a little bit more. It wouldn't be Kiev, it wouldn't be half and half of the country. Right now there are a lot of folks that are upset with the Russians and with Yanukovych. And so you need to see the opposition outplay their hand before you'd start to see those that are Russians speaking Ukrainians in southeast Ukraine start to swing in places like Kharkiv and Donetsk in southeast Ukraine.

Second reason is because an enormous amount of Russian energy goes through Ukraine from Russia into Europe. And if suddenly Ukraine were split, the ability of the Russians to get that energy into Europe would be at question. And that's a big -- it's a big cash -- source of cash for the Russian state budget.

But the medium-term issue -- I mean, these are -- you've got kleptocrats across the board in Ukraine, it's not just the pro-Russian guys, it's the pro-Ukraine guys too. There's a reason why the Europeans and the Americans didn't bother to give these guys any money until after 100 Ukrainians were dead and it's because they were saying we don't want to work with these folks, they're not going to reform. They're not going to engage. That doesn't change miraculously just because they've been in the news for a week.

And so as we look out six, 12 months out there, the Russians have -- they've got dirt on every plausible leader. They've got the ability to squeeze them in terms of trade and energy. They can put a lot of money into preferred candidates' hands. Their ability to determine outcomes in Ukraine is actually pretty significant in the medium-term.

ANDERSON: Fascinating.

Well, watch this space. We will have you back, sir, a regular guest on this show. We thank you. Ian Bremmer for you.

Well, still to come on this show, Turkey's prime minister called it a vile attack and warns it will not go unpunished. What he says about audio recordings that appear to incriminate him are fabricated, he says, but protesters are already demanding the prime minister resign.

And chocolate may taste rich, cocoa is harvested by some of the poorest people in the world. And there have been concerns in the past for exploitation. So are things getting better? Well, we investigate and we will bring you that report.


ANDERSON: Welcome back.

Now the Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is said that he has been set up by his political enemies. He is furiously rejecting audio recordings that appears, at least, to incriminate him, calling them a matter of immoral editing.

Already, though, protesters are out on the streets in Istanbul demanding that he resign. Riot police fired water cannons to try and break up the crowds.

Journalist Andrew Finkel is following the fast moving developments joining us now from Istanbul.

What is the very latest on the streets there?

ANDREW FINKEL, JOURNALIST: Well, there are protests in the streets, of course, but I think this is very much a sign of frustration. It's very difficult for the opposition to make its point. For example, today the prime minister condemned the people who appeared to be framing him with these tapes. The opposition leader tried to respond to these accusations and say that they were real tapes, but most of the television stations cut him off in mid-sentence.

So there's a great deal of frustration that the argument isn't being heard, that the government is being accused of corruption and yet there's no way of answering these charges, Becky.

ANDERSON: What do you expect to happen next? I mean, this has been a -- you know, a fairly long process of protest against this prime minister, hasn't it? Can you see this continuing with this as another spark, as it were?

FINKEL: Indeed. I mean, it began last December, in the middle of December when there were police raids on the sons of ministers. They discovered huge amounts of cash. The investigation appeared to escalate. But then it was cut off very suddenly with the government reassigning policemen, prosecutors, passing legislation which will limit access to the Internet, which will reassign judges and will strengthen the hand of the civil service -- of the secret service.

Now, really what's ahead of this is an election at the end of this month. And the prime minister is committed do doing well in these elections, to keeping at least 40, 45 percent of the vote. And that's really going to be the test.

So, until those elections are held, I think we can see a lot more of these incidents. There are rumors of even more serious tapes and allegations in the pipeline. So this is going to be a very messy month in Turkey, Becky,.

ANDERSON: Andrew, I was remiss for our viewers, we should have started with what exactly is on these tapes and how incriminating is this content?

FINKEL: Well, if the tapes are real, they're very incriminating indeed. They're -- the prime minister in a very subdued voice, not one we're used to hearing him speak in, speaking in -- he's talking to his son and he's -- this is meant to be the day in which the police launched this corruption investigation and he's basically telling his son to hide the money. And there's a great deal of money to be hidden.

At one point, according to the tapes, the son says, well, you know, what do I do with these 30 million euros. That seems to be petty cash according to what the evidence that we're hearing.

So these are very incriminating tapes if they can be proven to be genuine -- Becky.

ANDERSON: Yeah. And allegations, as you rightly point out as we speak, something that is vehemently denied by the prime minister.

All right, Andrew, thank you for that.

Well, for the first time ever U.S. President Barack Obama has warned his Afghan counterpart Hamid Karzai that the U.S. may pull its 33,600 troops out of his country by the end of this year.

The two countries still have no agreement to extend America's role there. And now the Pentagon has been told to get ready for a near total withdrawal within months.

For more on what this means, I'm joined now by CNN's Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

If this were the case, this would be -- well, it would be quite a surprise, wouldn't it?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORREPSONDENT: Well, it's not the outcome that the U.S. wanted. The U.S. had wanted to keep several thousand troops there, Becky, past the end of this year to help train and advise the Afghan forces and to conduct missions there. But if Karzai is not going to sign that security agreement, that framework for keeping U.S. troops there, there will be no choice. The U.S. will have to pack up and go.

And this could be quite serious from the U.S. point of view. It takes away their base of operations to keep an eye on Pakistan to a large extent, takes away their ability to keep an eye on the Taliban and al Qaeda.

But, look, the president putting -- the U.S. president putting it out there very publicly for all to see. And he's making clear if Karzai isn't going to sign, he's going to tell the Pentagon, and he's done that today, start planning for zero troops.

Maybe it'll change at the end of the year, but maybe it won't. And the president putting his marker down. You don't want us there? Fine. We will pack up and go.

ANDERSON: This is a story that's going to have some legs going forward. Barbara, thank you for that as it begins.

Now a judge in South Africa has decided to give the media unprecedented access to what is a high profile murder trial that begins next week.

The Olympic athlete Oscar Pistorius faces murder charges over the killing of his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp.

More from Robyn Curnow.


ROBYN CURNOW, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A landmark decision by South African judge today. He ruled that all of Oscar Pistorius' murder trial could be broadcast live at least via an audio transmission. Only parts of it, though, he said, could be broadcast live on television.

Those parts could include the opening and closing statements of both sides as well as expert witness statements. However, he did say that the television cameras should be turned off when Oscar Pistorius as well as other witnesses who may be traumatized or not used to cameras were taking the stand.

Now, this has never happened before in South African legal history. Not criminal case has ever had such an open access to the media or live transmission.

So why is that? Well, legal experts say, well, the South African courts have come into the 21st Century realizing that there's not really much difference between live tweeting by journalists from inside the courtroom and a live audio stream broadcasting events minute by minute.

So there is that, the recognition that technology has changed the way trials perhaps are processed.

Also, the South Africans very keenly aware that it's not just Oscar Pistorius who will be on trial, but also the South African legal system, the police system, the way the justice system works in this country. And this judgment for many was an indication that the South Africans are trying to show not just other South Africans, but the world that this is a system that is open and transparent and that it's not just people who have access to Twitter who will be able to follow the details of the trial, that a rural person in the remote areas of South Africa will also be able to just turn on their radio. And they feel that is an important message to send.

Robyn Curnow, CNN, Johannesburg, South Africa.


ANDERSON: This is London, 24 minutes past 8:00 here. Coming up, it may taste delicious, but who is pocketing the profits? This week, we are turning the spotlight on chocolate and the industry. Our report up next.


ANDERSON: Well, I don't think I have to tell you that the chocolate industry is big business worth an estimated $110 billion a year. And cocoa is grown by some of the poorest people in the world. Nearly half of the cost of chocolate as a bar goes to the manufacturer for retail and marketing. Processing and production costs make up about 27 percent, transport and storage, taxes about another 17. The farmer who grows the cocoa gets a mere 3 percent. And their share has dropped sharply in the last 35 years.

Well, this is a story that we think is important. And this week, CNN is following up on what we brought you from the cocoa plantations of the Ivory Coast two years ago. We spotlighted the use of child labor in making some popular brands of chocolate.

Now Richard Quest is back along with executives from a major chocolate company. Have a look at this.


RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Certification, it's a means by which a cooperatives cocoa is given the stamp of approval from the likes of the Fair Trade Foundation, the Rainforest Alliance, or UTZ. To get certified, means growing your cocoa to strict standards. And that, of course, means no child labor.

This cooperative warehouse is where the certification issue becomes very real. On the one side, the cocoa ordinaire, the normal supply chain. On the other side, the certified cocoa by UTZ. Keeping the two separate goes to the heart of the credibility of certification.

There's a real incentive for the farmers to grow certified cocoa, they get a higher market price and a bonus premium on top up to $200 per ton. But by buying certified cocoa, we can all join in cocoa-nomics.

ANTONIE FOUNTAIN, COORDINATOR, VOICE NETWORK: There is no on magic bullet. There's not one solution that will hit all of the problems. However, you do need vehicles for change. And I think that certification is probably the only decent vehicle we have at the moment.


ANDERSON: So, is it still business as usual or is the industry really changing its ways? Well, join us for a lesson in cocoa-nomics, that's Thursday 9:00 in London, 10:00 in Berlin that only here on CNN.

Well, the latest world news headlines are just ahead.

Plus, promoting religious belief or inciting hatred? We're going to take a look at the role of American evangelical Christians in shaping the new anti-gay laws in Uganda.

Also, as the fashion elite descend on Paris, we'll get you behind the scenes. And scenes of some of the iconic French brands, namely tonight Louis Vuitton.


ANDERSON: In Ukraine, the acting president has delayed the appointment of an interim government until Thursday, and parliament has voted to hold mayoral and city council elections in May, along with the presidential polls. The headlines for you this hour. One candidate for president has already been announced: opposition leader Vitali Klitschko says he will run for office.

Well, it's been a chaotic scene on the streets of Istanbul as Turkish riot police fire teargas and use water cannons to push back anti-government protesters. Now, these demonstrators are furious over what they say is a government mired in corruption.

US president Barack Obama warns that he is planning a full withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan this year if no security deal is signed. In a phone call to the president there, Hamid Karzai, Mr. Obama warned the longer there is no deal, the fewer troops that will remain if a deal is eventually signed.

Former police in Britain say that the -- sorry, British police say former Guantanamo Bay detainee Moazzam Begg was one of four people arrested today on suspicion of Syria-related terror offenses. Two other men and one woman were also taken into custody.

This comes after it was revealed that about 400 British extremists have gone to Syria in just the last two years. CNN's Atika Shubert has more.


ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well we don't have many details from police just yet, but they have confirmed that the former Guantanamo detainee, Moazzam Begg, was arrested, suspected of attending a terrorist training camp and facilitating terrorism overseas.

Now, also arrested was a 36-year-old man, a 44-year-old woman, and her son, aged 20. Now, all were arrested for Syria-related offenses. Police have removed vehicles, electronic equipment from their homes for forensic analysis.

Now, Begg is a particularly well-known and outspoken activists for the rights of prisoners in Guantanamo, and his group, Cage Prisoners, immediately condemned the arrest and claimed that this arrest was timed with a new report on Syria that they were just about to release.

Now, Moazzam Begg has made no secret of his visits to Syria in 2012 and in 2013. In fact, he openly wrote about being stopped and questioned by police and intelligence regarding his travel to Syria.

He wrote about visiting a group of, quote, "pious, well-educated, and relatively young and hospitable fighters in Syria," but he also said that he was in Syria to investigate allegations that the British government was involved in the rendition and torture of terror suspects in Syria.

Now, we don't know if his visits to Syria were directly related to his arrest, but we do know that the British government has been very concerned about the growing number of young British Muslims going to join the fighting in Syria, and fears that they could come back with more radical, violent ideas, particularly after just a few weeks ago, there was a suicide attack in Syria carried out by a young British fighter.

Now, this recent round of arrests certainly seems to be related to those concerns. At this point, however, Moazzam Begg has not been charged. He is simply under arrest.

Atika Shubert, CNN, London.


ANDERSON: Well, it is exactly what gays and lesbians in Uganda had feared. Just a day after a new anti-gay bill was signed into law, the "Red Pepper" tabloid has published a list of what it calls the country's top 200 homosexuals.

The bill signed Monday by the president makes some homosexual acts punishable by life in prison. CNN's Zain Verjee spoke exclusively with the Ugandan leader. Let me just remind you some of what he said.


ZAIN VERJEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Do you personally dislike homosexuals?

YOWERI MUSEVENI, PRESIDENT OF UGANDA: Of course, they're disgusting. What sort of people are they? How can you go -- I don't -- I never knew what they were doing. I've been told recently that what they do is terrible. Disgusting.


ANDERSON: The president. Where has this anti-gay sentiment in Uganda come from? It's a weird question, but you just heard the president speaking there. Anyway, last night, CNN's Christiane Amanpour spoke with Ross -- Roger Ross Williams, the director of a film called "God Loves Uganda."

Now, that film traces the growing influence of American evangelical Christians in the country and their role in stirring up anti-gay feeling. Williams pointed to the power wielded by one preacher in particular.


ROGER ROSS WILLIAMS, DIRECTOR, "GOD LOVES UGANDA": Someone who is very extreme, like Scott Lively, who is an extremist in America, but in -- when he goes to Uganda, he gets taken seriously because of what he represents. He's an American evangelical, and what America represents in a place like Uganda, represents power and wealth.

And so he goes to Uganda and he can command the president, he can command the parliament for five hours. He did a three-day conference where he told everyone about the threat of homosexuality, that they were there to recruit their children. And that's what really sort of started this whole bill on its -- that where it is now today, this sort of tragic day.


ANDERSON: Well, those are the accusations in a documentary. For more, I'm joined now by Scott Lively, the preacher mentioned in that last clip. He is currently facing a lawsuit filed by a gay rights group in the States. It accuses Lively of violating international law by promoting the persecution of gays and lesbians in Uganda. That lawsuit is in a pretrial phase.

Sir, thank you for joining us. How do you respond to the accusations our viewers just heard, that you are an extremist and that you are in part responsible for what are these incredibly severe new gay laws in Uganda?

SCOTT LIVELY, AMERICAN PREACHER AND LAWYER: Well, of course I don't agree with your characterization. But regarding the anti-homosexuality bill itself, I have mixed feelings about that. I support parts of it, the parts that have increased penalties for homosexual abuse of children and intentionally spreading AIDS through sodomy. But the parts dealing with simple homosexuality I don't agree with. They're far too harsh.

ANDERSON: So, do you accept how influential you have been? Three-day conference on the threat of homosexuality, five hours with the president and his lawmakers. You made a real difference in that country. Are you saying that you wish you hadn't been there, you hadn't said what you said? You could step back at this point?

LIVELY: Well, I think that's -- I think that's a misrepresentation.


ANDERSON: Well, you just told me that, sir, with respect.

LIVELY: Uganda has a very long history of dealing with homosexuality. In fact, it's the only country in the world that has a national holiday that celebrates the rejection of sodomy, Martyrs' Day, every June 3rd, is the celebration of the -- or actually, it's mourning for the 22 young men who were murdered by the homosexual king Mwanga for refusing to submit to sodomy. So, no American evangelicals taught the Ugandans how to be against homosexuality.

ANDERSON: OK, let me ask you two questions again. The first is one you haven't responded to: how do you respond to the accusations --


LIVELY: I can't hear you very well, I'm sorry.

ANDERSON: -- that you are an extremist. Sorry, with respect. You have been accused of being an extremist, how do you respond to that? And my second question is quite a basic one: do you know anybody who is gay, out of interest?

LIVELY: As to the first question, I suppose an extremist is in the eye of the beholder. If you're coming from a staunchly pro-homosexual perspective, anyone that disagrees with you is an extremist. That's the definition of homophobia. It includes -- there is no category in which you can be against homosexuality and not a homophobe.


LIVELY: People don't recognize that, but that's -- it's in the eye of the beholder.

ANDERSON: OK, so I think you're accepting that to some you are an extremist. Fine. So, let's agree on that one.


LIVELY: Well, I --

ANDERSON: Do you, just out of interest -- hang on.

LIVELY: To hardcore homosexual activists and their allies, yes, yes.

ANDERSON: Out of interest, do you know anybody who is gay?

LIVELY: Yes, of course I do.


LIVELY: And what?

ANDERSON: Do you get on with them? Would you talk to them? Are they evil?


LIVELY: I mean, I know people that are alcoholics and drug addicts too --

ANDERSON: I'm just asking to see what your sort of state of mind is.

LIVELY: Well, see the thing is that I'm, as a Christian, I have the ability to distinguish between people and conduct, and that's something the Left doesn't seem to be able to do. I have no problem being able to have friendship and even to love people who engage in wrong conduct. I can separate those things. And unfortunately, people on the political left don't seem to be able to do that.

ANDERSON: And I guess the point about Uganda is that you're saying that you can take these people and distinguish and work with them, as it were. In Uganda, you can't anymore, because you wouldn't find them, because they will be in jail going forward.

LIVELY: Well --

ANDERSON: Listen, I want to move on from Uganda -- hang on, sir. I want to move on from Uganda, because we've got a story out of the States, your home country, which I think we should bring into the mix here.

It's mid-day in the US state of Arizona. Protesters there expected to take to the streets once again over what is a proposed law that some say discriminates against gays and lesbian. Sir, hold on with me, I want our viewers to get this report and your reaction to it. Miguel Marquez on this.


CROWD (chanting): Veto hate! Veto hate! Veto hate!

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Voices here growing louder by the day. People from all walks of life coming out in loud opposition to Arizona's SB 1062.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We believe in equal rights. We're all human beings, we deserve the same rights.

MARQUEZ: The fear: the bill will empower business owners holding deep religious beliefs to deny services to gays and lesbians. The legislation now on Governor Jan Brewer's desk. Our Dana Bash spoke with her exclusively.

GOV. JAN BREWER (R), ARIZONA: We have been following it, and I will make my decision in the near future.

MARQUEZ: Now, a full-court press against the bill. Both senators, John McCain and Jeff Flake, joining a chorus of business leaders from across the state urging Brewer to veto.

MARQUEZ (on camera): What was the reaction of your board members to this proposal?

TODD SANDERS, CEO, PHOENIX CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: Overwhelmingly they want -- they asked for us to go down and request that the governor veto this legislation.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): Most shockingly, three state senators that voted for 1062 just last week now say that was a mistake.

SEN. STEVE PIERCE (R), ARIZONA STATE LEGISLATURE: We want to correct something that we did that -- it isn't good for the state, especially if you look around and see the negative publicity.

MARQUEZ: Supporters of the bill say it's aim: to protect religious rights by broadening its definition and reach, not denying others their rights. Maia Arneson owns a Christian-based business.

MAIA ARNESON, ARIZONA BUSINESS OWNER: We want to be able to find a way, hopefully through something like this bill, to be able to have it where everyone is respected for their religion, their faith.

MARQUEZ: Much hangs in the balance, the NFL now saying it is following the debate over the controversial bill and waiting on any decision about its possible impact on next year's Super Bowl, due to take place right here.

Miguel Marquez, CNN, Phoenix.


ANDERSON: Scott, I know that you support this bill. Can you just explain for our viewers why?

LIVELY: I just want to point out that all your set-up pieces are coming from a pro-gay perspective, but this bill in Arizona is actually responding to gay bullying of business owners around the United States that are simply exercising --


ANDERSON: One of those gremlins that you wish never visited a TV studio, because that was a fascinating interview, and if we can get him back, we will. I'm sure you would have appreciated some more of his views and our conversation and debate over the pros and cons here.

We have had a massive reaction to this story on our Facebook page, I'm talking about the Ugandan one, and indeed the story out of Arizona. Viewers weighing in from around the world. A sample of what you had to say.

Natvi Emmanuel says, "I wish all African presidents can follow this example. The West have no say in this, for we are no more in the colonial era."

Kiera, who's a regular viewer of this show, and we always appreciate your comments, Kiera. "This is reprehensible. He doesn't have to agree with homosexuality, but he cannot imprison people for who they love," referring to the Ugandan president.

Another viewers says, "It is very good for we Africans to have our traditional beliefs. We should keep them. I also believe it's bad timing, as this has come at a time where the current regime under Museveni is looking for votes."

The team at CONNECT THE WORLD wants to hear from you, facebook.com/CNNconnect, have your say. You can tweet me @BeckyCNN. That's @BeckyCNN.

And if I am -- if I told you while we try and get Scott Lively back, that one of the roles that he sells himself as, or one of the hats that he wears is an international human rights consultant.

One of the questions that I wanted to ask him is given that hat he wears, I was interested to get his reaction to how he thought he should and could and ought to encourage the denial of rights to humans out of their sexuality or their preference for sexuality.

Anyway, it's a question that if we can get him back, I'll ask. You tell me what you think, it's your show, @BeckyCNN, tweet me.

Live from London, you're watching CONNECT THE WORLD. Coming up, despite having no formal business training, she has flown up the corporate ladder. I'm going to speak to one lady about her life at the top. She is fascinating. Stay with me for that.


ANDERSON: Now, when you think of agriculture, commodities, biofuels, you will think of businesses often dominated by men. That's the reality. But one woman is right there at the top. From orphan to young widow and now chairperson of one of the biggest commodity companies in the world. This is the story of Margarita Louis-Dreyfus.


ANDERSON (voice-over): Another day as chairwoman of the Swiss-based family-owned Louis-Dreyfus Holding, a global commodities conglomerate. With her company's CEO in tow, Margarita Louis-Dreyfus is headed to one of their citrus plants outside Sao Paulo in Brazil.

MARGARITA LOUIS-DREYFUS, CHAIRPERSON, LOUIS-DREYFUS HOLDING: I have been there 25 years ago, and I would like to see what has happened since then.

ANDERSON: There, she gets a status report from her team.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oranges from concentrate is somewhat stagnant because of the high prices.

ANDERSON: Since taking over the male-dominated business in 2001, she's learned to work with both men in hard hats and sharp suits.

ANDERSON (on camera): So, how would you describe your managerial style, then?

LOUIS-DREYFUS: I'm not trying to manage these people, I'm trying to just make the environment where everybody feels comfortable and everybody can take responsibility for what they are doing. I try to give the people the freedom to take responsibility. But if they take decisions, they have to take responsibility. It has to be always constructive discussion.

ANDERSON (voice-over): Business travel to the United States is always on the agenda, crucial to the commodity giant's profit line. Last year, Dreyfus Holdings made a $150 million investment to upgrade a portion of the Port of Baton Rouge in Louisiana, a port the company uses to transport its goods.

Margarita Louis-Dreyfus was born in Leningrad in Russia during the Soviet era. She studied economics and law in Moscow, then moved to Switzerland in the early 1980s to work. She met her late husband, Robert, in 1988. The couple married four years later.

LOUIS-DREYFUS: He was coming to Switzerland every weekend because his dog was here.

ANDERSON (on camera): His dog?

LOUIS-DREYFUS: Yes, his dog. And the plane was empty, it was 6:00 in the morning.

ANDERSON: Right. So you chat, right?

LOUIS-DREYFUS: And the computer put us together, and I was wondering why, because everything was -- it was just kind of fate.

ANDERSON (voice-over): Louis-Dreyfus has gone from full-time wife and mother of three to the top of a major corporation without formal business training. Margarita was positioned as chairperson after her husband Robert died following a 12-year battle with leukemia. Her goal: to fulfill Robert's wish to keep their company in the Louis-Dreyfus name for his heirs.

ANDERSON (on camera): Are the kids going to be involved in this business going forward?

LOUIS-DREYFUS: In that, nobody knows. Our kids are free.

ANDERSON: Of the three, is there any one of your boys that you would say, I think he's going to be a hard-headed businessman?

LOUIS-DREYFUS: I would say that it means both of them.

ANDERSON: They get a sense of legacy, do they?

LOUIS-DREYFUS: This responsibility, I cannot free them from this, but being responsible shareholders here, they have no choice.


ANDERSON: Let's take a short break. Back after this.


ANDERSON: There is a French -- no it isn't. It's mid-day in the US state of Arizona, I'm so sorry, but what are we going to do here? We're going to have a few issues with what we're doing next. We've got about three minutes, let's do this.

A French fashion brand that's become a household name, the Louis Vuitton Show, one of the hottest tickets in town at Paris Fashion Week. Isa Soares speaks to the man behind the brand about how trends go from the catwalk to the consumer.


ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's arguably the most-recognized fashion brand in the world. Here at Louis Vuitton, every detail is stitched, hammered, and painted by hand by master craftsmen.

SOARES (on camera): At the heart of the Louis Vuitton brand is travel. This is how it really all began. Take a look at this suitcase. Inside it is a foldable bed. It was used and sold in the late 19th century for the exploration of Africa. The same with this one here, it's actually made of aluminum, so the insects couldn't get in.

SOARES (voice-over): From trunks to handbags and special commissions, everything is painstakingly produced at workshops like this one just outside of Paris. Some pieces require 300 stages to assemble. At the helm of Louis Vuitton's parent company, LVMH, the largest luxury group in the world, is Bernard Arnault.

BERNARD ARNAULT, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, LVMH: We already are behind the possibility of production because we want to keep the best level of quality and to train our team. Maybe it takes 18 months to two years before they can really start producing.

MICHEL DUFRENOY, CRAFTSMAN, LOUIS VUITTON (through translator): I've been working here for 26 years. I verify and make sure that all the corners are perfect.

SOARES: The brand has a long history. Louis Vuitton himself came to Paris as an apprentice trunk maker the year before the first ocean liners made their maiden trans-Atlantic voyages. It was a time of great productivity.

SOARES (on camera): This is the home of Louis Vuitton and his family. It was built in 1869, and you can tell, having a look around, the attention to detail and craftsmanship began at home, from the stained glass windows in the 1900s to that blue art nouveau fireplace. Even the chandelier, which screams la belle epoque.

ARNAULT: (inaudible) special that has been ordered by a customer that we design for him.

SOARES (voice-over): Today, LVMH has over 60 brands in its portfolio, and Louis Vuitton alone is worth almost $30 billion, according to Forbes. Merchandising French style is what has proved so popular with customers around the world.

ARNAULT: I remember when the first time I went to China in 1991 for the opening of the first Louis Vuitton shop, and in the streets of Beijing, you had no cars, only bicycles. And in spite of that, we opened, and because we were the first in China, we still are the first today.

SOARES: So, in a global market, what's the value of an event like Paris Fashion Week?

SOARES (on camera): How does that translate from the catwalk to goods sold?

ARNAUL: Very often on the catwalk, you trigger the desire of the customer. And very often, after the show, we have a demand for the product that has been shown.

SOARES (voice-over): Demand that Louis Vuitton, the teenaged trunk apprentice, could only have dreamed of.

Isa Soares, CNN, Paris.


ANDERSON: All right. And we lost preacher Scott Lively earlier. We will try and get him back during the week. He is currently facing a lawsuit filed by a human rights group.

We're going to take our short break. My colleague Richard Quest after this.