10:18 < Thinkofdeath> dx: well the api is fine anyway 10:18 < dx> yup 10:18 < Thinkofdeath> and SpaceManiac doesn't need craftbukkit 10:20 <+SpaceManiac> I might try maintaining it, but I worry I'm not up to the task 10:21 * Thinkofdeath hides in here away from #spigot 10:21 < Thinkofdeath> so noisy :3 10:21 < Scruff> Hi Thinkofdeath. :P 10:21 <+SpaceManiac> I can only imagine 10:21 < Thinkofdeath> oh god 10:22 * Thinkofdeath thinks about applying m:*!*@* 10:22 < Scruff> Shouldn't mode +m be good enough? 10:22 < eddyb> wtf is spigot? 10:22 < Thinkofdeath> I like my way better 10:22 < dx> Thinkofdeath: bah, i just joined :( 10:22 < Thinkofdeath> rip dx 10:23 < Thinkofdeath> eddyb: (Craft)bukkit fork 10:23 < dx> eddyb: man, you're kinda out of the loop 10:24 < eddyb> dx: that's what I said to people who didn't know what bukkit was 10:25 < eddyb> Thinkofdeath: oh, I think I know it now 10:25 < eddyb> they have optimizations and stuff, no? 10:25 < Thinkofdeath> yep 10:25 < dx> they also have Thinkofdeath 10:25 < dx> a great feature 10:26 < Thinkofdeath> dx: thats more of a negative if you ask me 10:26 < Scruff> xD 10:26 < dx> Thinkofdeath: you gotta improve that self-esteem 10:26 < Thinkofdeath> :3 10:27 < eddyb> wait, what? http://www.spigotmc.org/XenStaff/ 10:27 < eddyb> md_5 and Thinkofdeath are spigot? 10:27 * eddyb is confused 10:27 < dx> what about it? 10:28 * Thinkofdeath waves at eddyb 10:28 < eddyb> dx: I just never put two and two together 10:28 <+SpaceManiac> Thinkofdeath, you guys have any solid plans yet? 10:28 < Thinkofdeath> nope 10:29 < Thinkofdeath> i'm the only one on the team that is awake currently 10:29 < Thinkofdeath> so i'm waiting :P 10:29 < dx> sounds like it will be hard to come up with a plan that isn't "disregard EULA, host spigot in russian torrent trackers" 10:29 < Drainedsoul> That sounds like a good plan though 10:29 * Thinkofdeath takes notes 10:30 < eddyb> so what about spigot is an EULA issue? the original decompiled code? 10:30 <+SpaceManiac> Yeah. Distribution of Mojang IP (the server software). 10:31 < dx> eddyb: craftbukkit is decompiled closed source code of the server, spigot is a set of patches over that code 10:31 < eddyb> so reimplementing the sever from scratch wouldn't be an issue? 10:32 < dx> correct. good luck. 10:33 <+SpaceManiac> I have a project to do that and it's even compatible with Bukkit plugins, but it's not close to feature parity and now might never be 10:33 < dx> well, it would be pretty damn cool if glowstone turned out to be the solution to this problem, and got enough support and contributions for it to be as good as the official server 10:34 < dx> i can dream, right? 10:34 < Drainedsoul> written in Java tho Zzzz :( 10:34 <+SpaceManiac> Nah, I'm crap at project management and have no connections :P 10:35 < dx> SpaceManiac: so start getting better at project management! go spam reddit saying you have an open source alternative to craftbukkit that needs contributions :P 10:36 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: ikr? 10:36 < eddyb> can anyone name the best language for this job? 10:37 < dx> visual basic 10:37 < Drainedsoul> if you put Java in a set, and took the complement of that set, it'd be a pretty good starting point, imo 10:37 * eddyb slaps dx around a bit with fish.NETs 10:37 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: can we exclude memory unsafe languages? 10:37 < dx> no, not .net, visual basic 6.0 10:37 < Drainedsoul> define "memory unsafe" 10:37 < dx> c/c++ 10:37 < dx> or what eddyb is thinking, "not-rust" 10:38 < eddyb> dx: dammit, you've spoiled it 10:38 < dx> :D 10:38 < Drainedsoul> is C#, therefore, also unsafe? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/chfa2zb8.aspx 10:38 < eddyb> C#, D, Java are usually fine in that aspect 10:38 < TkTech> Thinkofdeath: Good call, my recommendation is for the entire team to take a 24 hour vacation. 10:39 < eddyb> assuming you don't use explicitely unsafe features such as FFI. once you can call into C, you can do anything 10:39 < dx> yeah with FFI you can fuck up any language. 10:39 < dx> even visual basic 10:39 <+SpaceManiac> dx: Yeah, good idea. I'll sleep on it some, post in a few hours maybe, when I can get on a desktop without being weird 10:39 < dx> SpaceManiac: :D 10:40 < Drainedsoul> that also depends on your defn of "fuck up" 10:40 < eddyb> anyways, the issue those three languages I've mentioned have is GC 10:40 < dx> Drainedsoul: segfault 10:40 < dx> eddyb: fanboy 10:40 < Drainedsoul> segfaults are fine 10:40 < eddyb> Drainedsoul is actually right 10:40 < Drainedsoul> it's when a program doesn't segfault that you have problems 10:40 < eddyb> mhmm 10:40 < Drainedsoul> but why is "memory unsafe" this magical delineation 10:41 < Drainedsoul> what about thread unsafe. If anything that's worse 10:41 <+SpaceManiac> I've been trying to learn Rust 10:41 < Scruff> http://puu.sh/b1z7N/1b2f35be51.png 10:41 < Scruff> xD 10:41 < TkTech> Unless you're running on Micrsoft's Singularity in which a SEGFAULT is the same thing as a triple fault :) 10:41 < eddyb> the worst part about heartbleed was was that the heart never stopped beating 10:41 < eddyb> TkTech: well, any kernel for that matter :P 10:42 < eddyb> TkTech: excluding lazy loaded pages, of course 10:42 < Drainedsoul> Heartbleed didn't have anything to do with memory unsafety. It had everything to do with a poorly written custom allocator. If you don't like the way the GC does things and insist on maintaining massive char [] for buffers in Java 10:42 < Drainedsoul> you can have heartbleed in Java 10:42 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: well, the allocator made it easy to exploit it to get private keys, IIRC 10:42 < jast> the poor allocator only worsened the impact, really 10:42 < eddyb> but the exploit itself was a buffer overflow 10:42 < Drainedsoul> the poor allocator made the memory unsafety impossible for tooling like valgrind, asan, etc. to catch 10:43 < TkTech> The allocator *hid* the pr--- 10:43 < TkTech> Dmamit, beat me to it. 10:43 < eddyb> that kind of tooling wouldn't find an issue unless you were fuzzing it 10:43 < Drainedsoul> Have you used asan lol? 10:44 < eddyb> I know how asan works 10:44 < dx> asan is love 10:44 < eddyb> if you didn't trigger the buffer overflow, how on earth could it know anything? 10:44 < eddyb> there is no behavioral difference between not triggering a buffer overflow because the conditions are not met and not triggering a buffer overflow because you would error if it were the case 10:45 < dx> hm, yeah, this is more of an issue for static analysis 10:45 < jast> the beauty is that heartbleed isn't a buffer overflow 10:45 < eddyb> jast: maybe I'm remembering incorrectly 10:45 < jast> I'm not 100% certain right now, either 10:45 < TkTech> You just ask the server for some memory and it happily gives it to you~~ 10:45 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: You can make that argument about anything in any language. This is why we write tests. 10:46 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: not any language 10:46 < dx> was it just a large uninitialized malloc? 10:46 * dx checks 10:46 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: Yes, every language. You're picking out a certain class of bug. But any program, in any language, can have bugs, and you won't know about those bugs until/unless those code paths are taken 10:46 < TkTech> "Hey sshd, can you give me the first 4k of your memory with this fancy request?" 10:46 < TkTech> "Why sure there fellow! Here you go." 10:46 < jast> IIRC it was an uninitialized malloc that was then partially written over 10:46 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: ah, bugs in general 10:47 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: but there's entire classes of bugs that are statically preventable 10:47 < dx> ah yeah http://git.openssl.org/gitweb/?p=openssl.git;a=commitdiff;h=96db902 10:47 < TkTech> Drainedsoul: Is the point of functional verification (ex: L4) not to prove that it operates without bugs? 10:48 < jast> it's pretty hard to _prove_ that, to the point you may as well consider it impossible 10:48 < TkTech> Except they did :P http://www.ertos.nicta.com/research/l4.verified/ 10:49 < Drainedsoul> dx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnBbhXBDmwU#t=5m 10:49 < jast> TkTech: host seems down 10:49 < dx> comic sans ♥ 10:49 < eddyb> jast: not here 10:49 < TkTech> jast: It's up oO 10:49 < jast> not from my place 10:50 < jast> hum, DNS might be broken here 10:50 < TkTech> Living in a nation at odds with the West/Australia? 10:50 < jast> SERVFAIL :( 10:50 < Drainedsoul> lol "/Australia" 10:51 < TkTech> NICTA is Aussie 10:51 < eddyb> there are few languages that solve some safety issues, but from those without a GC I can only think of Cyclone 10:51 < eddyb> (if it's not named something else) 10:52 < dx> but eddyb, what about the best language ever?! 10:52 < dx> [dramatic sounds] 10:54 < eddyb> dx: Idris :P? 10:54 < eddyb> "introducing a dependently typed minecraft server" 10:54 < TkTech> Ada is the one true language. 10:54 < eddyb> TkTech: ahh that's the other one (I think) :D 10:54 < eddyb> or was it the one with weird symbols? 10:54 < jast> swift? :) 10:55 < TkTech> Oh, you thinking of the NASA one? 10:55 < eddyb> didn't it also start with A? 10:55 < dx> jast: the parallel scripting language? 10:55 < eddyb> ALS? no that's... 10:55 < TkTech> HAL/S 10:55 < TkTech> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL/S 10:55 < eddyb> nope 10:55 < TkTech> Reading that is terrifying 10:56 < eddyb> ATS? 10:56 < jast> dx: the thing apple came out with this year 10:56 < eddyb> jast: which was inspired by Rust :P 10:57 < eddyb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATS_(programming_language) I was thinking of this, but I'm not sure it's the one with the weird simbols 10:57 < jast> and objc 10:57 < dx> jast: this one? http://docs.openstack.org/developer/swift/ 10:57 < Drainedsoul> didn't APL have weird symbols? 10:57 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: there we bloody go 10:57 < eddyb> silly acronyms wasting my time 10:57 < Drainedsoul> that's where the name of std::iota came from 10:58 < TkTech> I've never onced remembered iota without looking it up 10:59 < Drainedsoul> I remember it 10:59 < Drainedsoul> because it's the STL function with the bizarre name from APL 10:59 < Drainedsoul> :P 10:59 < eddyb> iota is part of eastern alphabets, no? 11:00 < eddyb> oh, greek, silly me 11:00 < Drainedsoul> http://git.rleahy.ca/MCPP/blob/noise/include/mcpp/simplex.hpp#L175 I'm always super happy when I get to use it- 11:00 < eddyb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yodh 11:00 < Drainedsoul> greek is painful 11:00 < TkTech> dafaq is gitlist 11:01 < Drainedsoul> it's just a git viewer that uses PHP or w'er 11:01 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: brb fixing my keyboard layout 11:01 < TkTech> So very many git UIs now... 11:02 < eddyb> there is no excuse for writing new PHP code 11:02 < Drainedsoul> I have to do it for work 11:02 < Drainedsoul> I'm actually not too mad about it 11:02 < Drainedsoul> before I was hired they were using classic ASP/VBScript 11:02 < Drainedsoul> so I got off easy. 11:03 < TkTech> That sounds like a fun place to work if you're a masochist. 11:03 < dx> https://twitter.com/jeb_/status/502380018216206336 11:03 < Drainedsoul> well I wanted to go back to school, and it was work from home, so, no arguments from me 11:03 < dx> Warren over at bukkit seems to have forgotten that the project was bought by Mojang over two years ago, and isn't his to discontinue. 11:03 < dx> plot twist 11:03 < TkTech> Ohhhhhh here we go! 11:03 * Thinkofdeath grabs popcorn 11:04 < dx> it was a dream all along 11:04 < TkTech> Hm, I was about to make a popcorn comment and then I realized I actually want popcorn. 11:04 < Drainedsoul> great, people caring about what the Mojangstas say 11:04 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: I go back to school this september, having dropped out of last year of highschool in november 11:04 < dx> Drainedsoul: there's no legal issue if bukkit is owned by mojang 11:04 < dx> but i don't even 11:04 < eddyb> is jeb_ master troll? 11:04 < dx> eddyb: definitely 11:05 < Drainedsoul> on IP laws I'm like, to the left of RMS, so when people talk about "legal issue[s]" I just glaze over and stop listening 11:05 < dx> lol 11:05 < dx> eddyb: < jeb_> This is not a joke, we dug up the receipt to be sure. 11:05 < TkTech> eddyb: Good luck at school! 11:06 < eddyb> dx: it's streaming live in #minecraft courtesy of janebot :P 11:06 < dx> lolk 11:06 < eddyb> TkTech: thanks. I hope I survive this year :) 11:07 < TkTech> Well I joined and parted that pretty quick. 11:08 < eddyb> that much for taking over with a Russia^W Rust server implementation 11:09 < dx> lol people hating on evilseph now 11:09 < dx> everything is back to normal, huh 11:10 < eddyb> dx: and here I thought the universe was slapping me for giving up 11:10 * eddyb goes back to giving up 11:10 < eddyb> I wish I didn't have to split this into ten commits, each with meaningful messages 11:11 < TkTech> <5 days later> 11:12 < TkTech> I wish I had split this up into ten commits with meaningful messages... 11:12 < eddyb> TkTech: I've been working on this on and off for the past month or so :( 11:12 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: Why do you have to split things up into commits? 11:12 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: Shouldn't you have like, the opposite problem? @_@ 11:13 < eddyb> given that my main test world for this is from w27 11:13 < eddyb> and I'm using the code of the w32 snapshot 11:13 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: well, splitting isn't that big of a deal, making each commit work will be slighty harder 11:14 * eddyb is a perfectionist hacker 11:15 < TkTech> I started Bukkit, I'm going to personally see it through for 1.8. Updating it now :) -Dinnerbro 11:15 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: I just don't understand that problem. 11:16 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: it's called opensource audience :P 11:16 < eddyb> even though I can merge my branch upstream in three clicks, I want code review 11:16 < dx> 05:41 < Scruff> http://puu.sh/b1z7N/1b2f35be51.png 11:16 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: I meant more like, I don't understand the workflow that would result in that. 11:16 < dx> so that's what that meant 11:16 <+SpaceManiac> Huh. Somehow I had not considered that Mojang might have actually bought the rights to Bukkit along with its chief engineers. 11:17 < Drainedsoul> "bought the rights to", glazing over here... 11:17 < dx> SpaceManiac: ikr, 10/10 plot twist right there. 11:17 < TkTech> Do they even need to purchase a work derived from their own without explicit licencing? 11:17 < eddyb> does this mean Bukkit is legal, Spigot is not? 11:18 <+SpaceManiac> Mind-bending. I think I will sleep and hope the facts are clearer in the morn. 11:18 <+SpaceManiac> TkTech, the API too. 11:18 < TkTech> eddyb: Spigot is legal because they didn't contest it. 11:18 < eddyb> hmpf 11:18 * eddyb shrugs and goes back to feature creep 11:19 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: a very bad workflow 11:19 < dx> i guess spigot is going to be ok if they somehow avoid distributing server jars... 11:19 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: I guess that's what I was getting at 11:19 < dx> russian torrent trackers are fine too 11:19 < Drainedsoul> ^ 11:19 < eddyb> dx: make a tool that downloads craftbukkit and applies patches? 11:20 < dx> eddyb: that's way too sensible 11:20 < Drainedsoul> use gradle, isn't that what the cool people do? 11:20 < dx> what are you doing eddyb 11:21 < Drainedsoul> ^ 11:21 < eddyb> get your bums in #minecraft 11:21 < dx> the rights to the nick "bukkit" in freenode are owned by mojang now 11:21 < TkTech> But that channel makes me sad. 11:21 < eddyb> TkTech: well, not it's too late 11:21 < eddyb> *now 11:22 < eddyb> [12:19] Are you ok bukkit? 11:22 < eddyb> [12:20] * bukkit is fine. you can stop worrying now. xoxo deebee 11:22 <+SpaceManiac> dx, they always were. 11:23 < eddyb> dx: did you know I held jeb_ for like a few months? 11:23 <+SpaceManiac> well, belonged to DB anyways. Ran on his bouncer the whole time too. 11:23 < eddyb> and then transferred it to him 11:23 < dx> SpaceManiac: i was joking, and nickserv says it's ~Joeytje50@wikia/Joeytje50 11:23 <+SpaceManiac> Oh. goofy. 11:23 < eddyb> [12:22] [Notice] -NickServ- Nicks : eddyb _eddyb_ |eddyb| Etho xNotch Guude TheBastard eddybat noUrNot eddyb9 firefish 11:23 < dx> might be on esper, though 11:23 < eddyb> wait, what? 11:23 < dx> hahah what 11:23 < eddyb> why don't I have eddyb_ and eddyb__? 11:24 * eddyb fixes it 11:24 < dx> >Etho xNotch Guude 11:24 < dx> that's evil 11:24 <+SpaceManiac> yes, definitely on esper 11:25 < nevercast> join #brackets 11:25 < nevercast> HURR 11:25 < nevercast> Y U NO SLASH 11:25 <+SpaceManiac> I feel your pain. 11:26 < dx> that feel when no slash 11:28 < TkTech> Well, the Mojang guys did a pretty good job of shutting this down quick. 11:28 < nevercast> Is this the bukkit fiasco? 11:28 < nevercast> I heard some radio chatter about this 11:28 < nevercast> s/radio/teamspeak/ 11:29 < dx> yeah i heard about it in CB radio 11:30 < dx> (citizen's band, not craftbukkit) 11:30 < TkTech> Lies, after 2AM all CB radio within 2000km of Montreal is techno. 11:30 < dx> TkTech: really? that's awesome 11:30 < dx> and i'm nowhere near canada 11:31 < TkTech> More often then not, although it's been 6+ years since I drove a truck. 11:32 < nevercast> It's been 22+ years since I drove a truck. 11:33 < Grum> md_5: why drama? 11:33 <+md_5> ....... 11:34 < Grum> yes, Bukkit was silently owned by Mojang, but Mojang was intentionally mitts-off as to not influence the project 11:34 <+md_5> you are saying IM creating drama? 11:34 < Grum> extra drama =) 11:34 < TkTech> nevercast: Ever driven a B-train full of methadone through a southern Qubec snowstorm at ~4 in the morning? 11:34 < nevercast> TkTech, I don't think so 11:35 < nevercast> I'm only 22 years old, so I've no memory before then :P 11:35 < TkTech> ~_~ 11:35 < Spurlex> Why cant we all be friendsssss 11:35 < Grum> md_5: lawyers for what? 11:35 <+md_5> Grum I don't even know how to reply to that. 11:35 < nevercast> TkTech, Sorry lol.. 11:35 < TkTech> Spurlex: We are! Sometimes we bicker but tomorrow everyone will make up. 11:35 <+md_5> I'll just go to my maths instead. 11:36 < nevercast> TkTech, Also screw that drive 11:36 < Grum> md_5: your tweet is rather suggestive but I'm not really seeing what the use is :/ 11:36 < dx> let's just assume Grum just implied that spigot is perfectly legal and we can forget all this happened, ok? 11:36 <+md_5> because a supposedly lgpl licensed project which we are based on has been secretly owned by a commercial for profit company? 11:36 < Spurlex> Or lets ask… Is spigot legal? :D 11:36 < TkTech> nevercast: Yeah. GoJIT. Sent a teenager with just barely his AZ on a multi-million dollar methadone run with no helper. 11:37 <+md_5> can you perhaps see why I MIGHT want to invest in proper legal advice. 11:37 < TkTech> Great company. 11:37 < dx> md_5: that's a better way of saying it 11:37 < Grum> md_5: the setup was dodgy even without Mojang owning Bukkit 11:37 < enchilado> md_5: is it not possible for an lgpl project to be owned by a for-profit company? 11:37 < TkTech> enchilado: It is, dual licences are a thing. 11:37 < TkTech> So is a retroactive licence. 11:37 < enchilado> So what's the issue? 11:38 < TkTech> I have no idea. 11:38 <+md_5> enchilado in something as legally gray as bukkit...... 11:38 < TkTech> What's gray about it now? 11:38 < dx> TkTech: retroactive licenses are a thing, but a very tricky thing 11:38 <+md_5> dx 150 chars in a tweet or w/e 11:38 < TkTech> Mojang just says they've owned and basically sponsored it for two years. 11:38 < Spurlex> I hope spigot is legal. I like spigot. 11:39 < Grum> no, we've sponsored nothing 11:39 < Spurlex> Its nice. 11:39 < Grum> and that hasn't been said anywhere 11:39 <+Fador> all the contributors must sign away their part of the code to get rid of GPL..? 11:39 < Grum> Mojang has nothing to do with Bukkit except for two of the owners/founders being employees and legally owning it 11:39 < TkTech> I didn't mean to imply a monetary sponsorship, I can't think of the word I'm looking for. 11:39 < dx> TkTech: "hiring devs as employees" 11:40 < Grum> dx: that has little to do with Bukkit other than that it put us on the radar of Mojang 11:40 < dx> yeah 11:40 <+Amaranth> I think he means Mojang owning the project shipping CraftBukkit as LGPL is different than Mojang pretending to not see it? 11:40 < TkTech> ^ 11:40 < dx> also, what about the GPL incompatibility? 11:40 < dx> is that solved now? 11:41 < nevercast> MIT all the things? 11:41 < dx> no, relicensing isn't that trivial 11:41 < TkTech> You need to hunt down all of the contributors and get new agreements signed. 11:41 < nevercast> What? 11:41 < nevercast> Why? 11:41 < nevercast> It's Bukkit 11:42 < dx> because each contributor owns their part of the copyright 11:42 < TkTech> Becaus they contributed under an agreement that put it under the LGPL. 11:42 < nevercast> It has no financial value imo 11:42 < TkTech> IP doesn't need to have monetary value. 11:42 < Drainedsoul> I'm really glazed over now 11:42 < nevercast> Eugh 11:42 < Drainedsoul> intellectual "property" lol 11:42 < nevercast> Does MIT have IP concerns? 11:42 < dx> dammit Drainedsoul 11:42 < Drainedsoul> just Unlicense everything 11:42 < nevercast> ^ 11:42 < nevercast> :P 11:42 < nevercast> It's the only way to group dev 11:42 < dx> nevercast: every software license works according to the copyright law 11:42 < nevercast> Otherwise people get possessive 11:42 < TkTech> Grum: I'm guess you guys will do a quick blog post or an FAQ at some point? 11:42 < TkTech> In which case we can all stop guessing. 11:43 < Thinkofdeath> TkTech: guessing is half the fun 11:43 < dx> ^ 11:43 < Grum> more than the tweet we just did? nope 11:43 < dx> Grum: seriously you should 11:43 < nevercast> dx, I'm not entirely sure how that works - but now I'm going to have to reconsider my what license I use in the future 11:43 < TkTech> "Grum" on twitter is not our grum... 11:43 < TkTech> That's a scary twitter page... 11:44 < Spurlex> So Grum is Spigot legal? 11:44 < dx> he isn't a lawyer 11:44 < Drainedsoul> who cares 11:44 < TkTech> I don't think he can answer that. 11:44 < nevercast> ^ 11:44 < nevercast> I'm with Drainedsoul :P 11:44 < enchilado> TkTech: https://twitter.com/_grum 11:45 < Spurlex> follow4follow plz 11:45 < Spurlex> ;) 11:45 < Kavukamari> ugh i guess i should just never log out ever even if there's a problem 11:45 < Kavukamari> i swear every time something weird happens and I have to log out, the auth servers are down lol 11:45 < nevercast> Haha 11:45 < dx> guys guys, let's look on the bright side: the 1.8 update might come sooner 11:46 < nevercast> Kavukamari, Your own server? Or another server? Or Singleplayer? 11:46 < dx> and that's thanks to evilseph 11:46 < Kavukamari> a friend's server 11:46 < nevercast> Kavukamari, Make a custom auth server :P That auths you when auth servers are down 11:46 < Kavukamari> yeah we totally should i keep telling him that 11:47 < eddyb> I have a revolutionary idea 11:47 < enchilado> dx: is there a side to look on that is not bright? 11:47 < eddyb> how about using more redundancy in the official auth servers? 11:47 < dx> enchilado: plenty of people are being very negative about this 11:47 < enchilado> Unless there's something I'm not aware of yet, it looks like it's just md_5 worrying over almost nothing. 11:47 < eddyb> so, you know, it doesn't keep going down 11:47 < TkTech> eddyb: You're a dev, you know it's not that easy. 11:48 < TkTech> Look at Steam. They've had a lot longer to get it right. 11:48 < dx> enchilado: md_5 is worrying about bukkit being legally clear and spigot being grayer than ever 11:48 < nevercast> ^ 11:48 < enchilado> md_5: how is it more grey than it was before? 11:48 < enchilado> Whut 11:48 < enchilado> dx* 11:49 < dx> enchilado: see evilseph's post about the reasons to stop craftbukkit, now apply that to spigot 11:49 < dx> it may not apply directly 11:49 < dx> but we don't know 11:50 < enchilado> Does Mojang owning Bukkit affcet his situation in any way, though? 11:50 < dx> we don't know 11:50 < dx> but the EULA is being enforced now and distributing jars is forbidden by it 11:50 < enchilado> The EULA hasn't changed, has it? 11:50 < Drainedsoul> my eyes rolled pretty hard 11:50 < Drainedsoul> this could be harmful 11:50 < redstonehelper> eddyb: yes, the tall grass bounding box is 14x14 pixels in footprint afaik 11:51 < dx> Drainedsoul: ? 11:51 < eddyb> redstonehelper: had a talk with Grvm, all I need is to apply the offset and I've had the decompiled code in front of me for hours 11:51 < eddyb> redstonehelper: then drama happened 11:51 < dx> Drainedsoul: your disregard for law doesn't apply in the real world, sorry 11:51 < nevercast> enchilado, EULA changed slightly 11:51 < nevercast> Or was revised, reenforced etc 11:51 < enchilado> I thought they just started enforcing it 11:52 < nevercast> Yes 11:52 < nevercast> The issue is 11:52 < nevercast> The EULA states that we cannot redistrubute anything made by Mojang 11:52 < nevercast> and if Bukkit is owned by Mojang, then projects like Spigot become Grey 11:52 < nevercast> Due to being a fork/hack/extension 11:52 < dx> spigot and bukkit already were grey 11:52 < Kavukamari> is the wording Made by mojang or Owned by mojang 11:53 < Drainedsoul> dx: It's worked out pretty well so far 11:53 < dx> Drainedsoul: lol 11:53 < nevercast> "Must not distribute anything we've made" 11:53 < Thinkofdeath> Well there is always this part of the eula "mods (or plugins, or tools) are cool (you can distribute those)" 11:53 < Grum> md_5: you own spigot? 11:53 <+Amaranth> dx: Apparently Bukkit has never been grey because Mojang owned it 11:53 <+Amaranth> (news to me!) 11:53 < enchilado> Bukkit was not owned by Mojang originally 11:53 < Grum> no it has always been a gray area 11:53 < dx> Amaranth: before they bought it, it certainly was 11:53 < Grum> and still is 11:53 < Grum> the licences on the project are completely arbitrary 11:54 < dx> true 11:54 < dx> gpl + lgpl simultaneously... 11:54 < Drainedsoul> aren't licenses in general completely arbitrary? 11:54 < dx> Drainedsoul: pls 11:54 < Goldman60> Arbitrary but at the same time legally binding 11:54 < Thinkofdeath> Drainedsoul: The main issue is the lgpl license on a code based with property code 11:55 < nevercast> I hate licences on Open Source projects so much (Beyond, Founder and appointed persons have final say and control to steer the project) 11:55 < Drainedsoul> nevercast: Dude, Unlicense 11:55 < TkTech> That has nothing to do with the licence nevercast oO 11:55 < TkTech> That's a company charter, not a licence. 11:55 < greymerk> Drainedsoul: wtfpl 11:55 < nevercast> TkTech, Okay - so firstly I must ask, Bukkit was GPL or LGPL before aquisition? 11:56 < dx> nevercast: both 11:56 < Thinkofdeath> nevercast: Bukkit GPL, CraftBukkit LGPL 11:56 < TkTech> That is an...interesting thing. 11:56 < nevercast> Ok 11:56 < nevercast> Which version? 11:56 < TkTech> Forever, 2011 at least. 11:56 < dx> ah yeah, bukkit is definitely GPL 11:56 < Thinkofdeath> nevercast: v3 11:57 < enchilado> So basically, spigot was breaking the EULA for years and now they're complaining because Mojang is starting to care? Or am I misunderstanding? 11:57 < dx> uhhhm 11:58 < Thinkofdeath> enchilado: no more than bukkit 11:58 < dx> s/spigot/bukkit/ 11:58 < dx> and then bukkit's situation got sort-of-fixed 11:58 < nevercast> LGPL against GPL is so hazy! 11:58 < enchilado> But bukkit aren't the one saying they're going to need lawyers 11:58 < nevercast> What a horrible licence 11:59 < dx> the few remaining bukkit devs are "retired", sorta. 11:59 < dx> evilseph certainly is 11:59 < TkTech> The lawyer thing is weird, Mojang has never to my knowledge taken legal action against devs. 11:59 < nevercast> So is CraftBukkit dependent on Bukkit? Or will it work with another API in it's place? 11:59 < TkTech> Takedowns, sure, but that's a different beast. 11:59 < TkTech> Hell, Notch supplied part of our wiki. 11:59 < Thinkofdeath> enchilado: that was more to ask about legal issues, not against mojang or anything 12:00 < dx> nevercast: the other way around. bukkit depends on craftbukkit. bukkit is clean, craftbukkit is not 12:00 < enchilado> It really seems to me like people are worrying over nothing. 12:00 < TkTech> At this point yes. 12:00 < TkTech> No one knows anything. 12:00 < enchilado> Thinkofdeath: the tone seemed to imply otherwise, but maybe that was only to me. 12:00 < TkTech> Everyone is just guessing. 12:00 < Thinkofdeath> enchilado: <+md_5> can you perhaps see why I MIGHT want to invest in proper legal advice. 12:00 < nevercast> Hey our lives are boring, we gotta make drama man 12:00 < dx> enchilado: 06:38 <+md_5> dx 150 chars in a tweet or w/e 12:00 < Thinkofdeath> but meh, i'm not really following anymore 12:00 < Thinkofdeath> too confusing :3 12:01 < Drainedsoul> Thinkofdeath: I tried investing in proper legal advice once. 12:01 < TkTech> Yeah, coffee time. 12:01 < enchilado> Yeah, fair enough. So it's just people assuming there's drama where there isn't? 12:01 < TkTech> Come back in 24 hours see where it's at. 12:01 < Drainedsoul> Thinkofdeath: Turned out that was cost prohibitive. 12:01 < nevercast> *sips coffee*.. Sound advice TkTech 12:01 * Thinkofdeath doesn't like coffee 12:01 * Thinkofdeath hides 12:01 < Drainedsoul> I don't like coffee either 12:01 < dx> enchilado: not drama, just a fucked up legal situation lampshaded 12:01 < Drainedsoul> dx: Aren't most legal situations fucked up? 12:01 < dx> Drainedsoul: no 12:02 < dx> unless you mean in the context of game modding, in that case probably yes 12:02 < nevercast> Haha 12:02 < nevercast> Ya know -- most the time, modders and game hackers, don't care, and they do okay 12:02 < nevercast> We should just keep doing that 12:02 < nevercast> It works 12:02 < enchilado> dx: people seem to be treating it as drama. 12:03 < dx> enchilado: people love doing that 12:03 < nevercast> The Bukkit stack isn't even on Mojangs agenda, so really nothing needs to change in light of this EULA BS 12:03 < nevercast> Mojang will just wave it on like they always have, because of how big the community is 12:03 < dx> eh 12:04 < enchilado> dx: it's better than ranting about what a terrible person Zoe Quinn is, anyway. 12:04 < dx> hahah 12:04 < dx> true that 12:05 <+Amaranth> dx: Bukkit is certainly not clean 12:05 < dx> Amaranth: :( 12:05 <+Amaranth> Bits of it are basically Mojang code copy/pasted with proper names and calling API instead of internals 12:06 < nevercast> Ha ^ 12:07 < nevercast> Every Forge 'Machine' in the entire cesspit of Forge mods, has copied and pasted something from a Furnace or an Anvil at some point 12:08 < Thinkofdeath> a lot of custom server and client implementations took the varint code from my gist which was in turn taken from vanilla :P 12:08 < Thinkofdeath> nothing is really clean from mojang code 12:08 < dx> dammit Thinkofdeath 12:08 < nevercast> Haha 12:09 < nevercast> Thinkofdeath, You have doomed us all, cuff me now 12:09 < Thinkofdeath> \o/ 12:09 < greymerk> in fairness, some of the basic ideas of how machines work are so general it doesn't matter. copying ideas (and sometimes code) is pretty fundamental to programming. 12:09 < greymerk> my coding is made easier by NOT trying to copy mojang code 12:09 <+Amaranth> Thinkofdeath: Didn't that code start from the java version of protobuf? 12:09 < nevercast> No no greymerk You can't use a for loop inside an if block.. because that is in Vanilla 12:09 < nevercast> (I am joking, yes yes ) 12:10 < Thinkofdeath> Amaranth: no where Grum got it from, but i'm pretty sure he wrote it his-self 12:10 < dx> hahah massive strikethrough http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/bukkit-its-time-to-say.305106/ 12:10 < Thinkofdeath> Amaranth: pretty sure protocol buf zig-zag encodes ints anyway 12:10 < nevercast> dx, Yeah I saw that lol 12:11 < dx> "it's time to say [REDACTED]" 12:11 < nevercast> "I need to be honest with you all and tell you [REDACTED]" - Username [BANNED] 12:11 * nevercast tightens tinfoil hat 12:12 < dx> we would like to thank [REDACTED] for all their [REDACTED] and especially [REDACTED] for [REDACTED]ing 12:12 < nevercast> dx, Do you have a spare second monitor? I would like one very much 12:12 < dx> nevercast: i only sell useless cheap chinese gadgets 12:13 < nevercast> Ha 12:13 < nevercast> Oh that reminds me! 12:13 < nevercast> I bought a car USB charger from you 2 weeks ago 12:13 < nevercast> I put it in to the lighter socket 12:13 < nevercast> It snapped in half 12:13 < nevercast> I'd like my $3.68 back 12:13 < dx> working as expected 12:13 < dx> won't fix 12:13 < nevercast> HAHA 12:14 < nevercast> I threw it across the road and had to charge my phone via headunit at a shitty 0.3amps 12:15 < nevercast> bower, install ze AngularJS already! 12:15 < nevercast> eugh 12:28 < dx> blatantly offtopic question: can anyone suggest any TODO list management software/service/thing? 12:29 < dx> i think i'd like something that works like github's issue tracker, but... i'm not going to pay for a private repo just to track that 12:30 < cindy_k> I've been using asana on and off 12:30 < cindy_k> its not bad for a project task list 12:30 < cindy_k> and free 12:30 < Drainedsoul> just put TODO comments in your code and grep? 12:30 < Drainedsoul> ;) 12:31 < cindy_k> lol 12:31 < dx> oh it's not for code 12:31 < cindy_k> some todo's aren't for the code 12:31 < dx> it's for my life in general 12:31 < cindy_k> asana has web and android client 12:37 < dx> hm, looks neat, will consider. i've tried this thing before https://unfuddle.com/ - and was fairly decent but at some point i realized i had to keep writing userscripts / shell scripts to patch it up where it was missing functionality. not cool. 12:43 < Kavukamari> it always bothered me that there's no way to get small suggestions noticed fast 12:44 < Kavukamari> like ones that are tiny and easy to implement which would be extremely beneficial, but perhaps not all that interesting enough to become a forum phenomena with thousands of supporters 12:44 < dx> Kavukamari: unfuddle had a really nice textbox where i always typed small suggestions and got replies straight from humans, that was cool 12:45 < Kavukamari> unfuddle? 12:45 < dx> oh uhm are you talking about minecraft? 12:45 < Kavukamari> yeah for minecraft 12:45 < dx> whoops. 12:45 < dx> getting replies from humans is impossible in this scale :D 12:46 < dx> for every suggestion, that is. 12:46 < Kavukamari> like an example is things like new nbt tags or target selectors, nobody will ever care enough about command blocks for singular suggestions of that nature to become popular 12:46 < Kavukamari> only the select few map makers and redstoneers would even notice 12:47 < dx> good thing mojang has special preference for a few select map makers 12:48 < dx> also i think i interpreted what you meant incorrectly, yay. 12:49 < dx> Kavukamari: the problem with feature suggestions in general is that most of them are absolute crap 12:49 < dx> and often what seems "small", "simple" for some people is a nightmare to actually implement 12:49 < Kavukamari> i can understand that notion 12:50 < dx> small feature request: make mobs not clip out of cages! just put an if (mob.outside()) 12:51 < dx> so in the end it's much more efficient to ignore them, or put huge awkward filters 12:51 < Kavukamari> well yeah that particular one is a misunderstanding how the game actually works 12:52 < Kavukamari> but it was just an example, obviously :P 12:52 < dx> a particularly blatant one, but with the massive userbase that minecraft has, you can be sure most people don't really understand what they are requesting 12:53 < Kavukamari> im afraid to give examples because I'd be tooting my own suggestion horn cause all i can think of are ideas that I actually do want 12:54 < dx> hahah 12:55 < Kavukamari> something simple in my mind is propagating NBT tags to other entities 12:56 < dx> like when breeding? 12:56 < Kavukamari> like entity A has something that also makes sense on entity B, just add the ability over to B to have the tag 12:56 < Kavukamari> oh I mean at the fundamental level 12:56 < Fenhl> how about craftable saddles. a lot of people want those, but the devs have said that they like saddles as difficult to obtain as they are now 12:56 < Kavukamari> not gameplay wise 12:57 < Kavukamari> I guess I'm thinking less of content suggestions and more of suggestions that extend the current power of systems already implemented 12:59 < Kavukamari> I like the idea of the command block system being as powerful and extensible as it possibly can be so that nobody runs into any limitation pitfalls when they are trying to make adventure maps 13:00 < dx> lua interpreter in command blocks when 13:00 < Kavukamari> that might be a bit mugh 13:00 < Kavukamari> much* 13:00 < dx> i estimate 2050 13:00 < dx> and will probably not be called "lua" by that point 13:01 < dx> but at this rate it's inevitable 13:02 < Kavukamari> i think the way command blocks work currently is fine, if hacky at times, we don't really need to implement a coding language into them, however there are still limitations in the way certain commands work 13:02 < eddyb> dx: Minecraft 3.2: now with command block JIT 13:02 < eddyb> (for Mill, because it will take that long for 3.2 to come out) 13:03 < Thinkofdeath> I don't like command blocks :/ Kinda wish they when a different route 13:03 < Thinkofdeath> doing it all with commands seem less minecrafty 13:03 < eddyb> dx: doesn't it remind you of another language? 13:03 < Kavukamari> what don't you like about them? 13:03 < dx> eddyb: js? 13:03 < eddyb> mhmm 13:03 < eddyb> dx: have you watched the birth and death of yavascript? 13:03 < eddyb> sorry, javascript 13:04 < dx> is that some sort of documentary? 13:04 < Thinkofdeath> Kavukamari: Just kinda killed everything else, its pretty much command block only nowadays 13:04 < eddyb> dx: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript 13:04 < eddyb> dx: yupp 13:04 < Thinkofdeath> I miss the large redstone machines 13:04 < eddyb> dx: it's kinda old though 13:04 < Thinkofdeath> pistons were great for that 13:04 < eddyb> being in the '30s and whatnot 13:04 < Kavukamari> I suppose that's what happens when something incredibly powerful gets introduced 13:04 < dx> Thinkofdeath: "killed everything else", including bukkit 13:05 < Thinkofdeath> dx: lol 13:05 < eddyb> Thinkofdeath: I miss instant piston redstone magic 13:05 < dx> minecraft 1.8 feature: command blocks now have java plugin support 13:05 < eddyb> Thinkofdeath: and nobody did anything impressive with the analog redstone that I was going to make a complete CPU out of 13:05 < Kavukamari> I still see the fun in building redstone machines though 13:05 < Kavukamari> my friend and I are still working on our RPG machine 13:05 < eddyb> 3 blocks per tick is terrible 13:06 < Thinkofdeath> dx: I already kinda added javascript support to them once :3 13:06 < Kavukamari> hm? 3 blocks per tick? 13:06 < eddyb> Kavukamari: analog redstone 13:06 < dx> Thinkofdeath: seriously? that's evil 13:06 < Kavukamari> oh I remember that haha 13:06 < eddyb> comparator, solid block, redstone dust 13:06 < Kavukamari> might as well scrap it and go instant 13:06 < eddyb> but... 8 bits in 2x2! 13:06 < Thinkofdeath> dx: Made a javascript plugin loader for bukkit + straight up in-game javascript support :P 13:07 < eddyb> my byte RAM cell was 6x6x6 13:07 < Kavukamari> my friend and I were considering a comparator hard drive but we never gor around to it 13:07 < Thinkofdeath> Just so I could play with java 8's nashorn js engine 13:07 <+Amaranth> Thinkofdeath: Wolvereness did that with Groovy 13:07 <+Amaranth> It's called DevBukkit 13:07 < dx> Thinkofdeath: oh i thought you meant a vanilla mod to load javascript from commandblocks. i knew about the plugin loaders 13:07 < dx> Amaranth: that's a terrible name 13:07 <+Amaranth> heh 13:08 <+Amaranth> It's an old plugin, it used to just listen to every event and print debug spew about them 13:08 < eddyb> Kavukamari: why HDD? 13:08 <+Amaranth> He made it into something completely different but kept the name, only he really knew how to use it though :P 13:08 < Kavukamari> because it's compact storage being able to hold 16 values in a bit 13:08 < Thinkofdeath> dx: nah I don't do vanilla mods often 13:08 < dx> i'm going to make a bukkit plugin to talk directly to kernel-mode code, and call it BukkitDev 13:09 < eddyb> anyways, 64 ticks to read a byte from a 256B RAM layer just sucks 13:09 < Kavukamari> commandblocks now with external program access through assemply code 13:09 < Kavukamari> bly* 13:09 < eddyb> it is like true RAM, but you don't have a tick rate of a couple GHz 13:09 < Kavukamari> our redstone team also had a lot of fun with instant read ram 13:10 < Kavukamari> instant read instant write 1 tick reset 13:10 < eddyb> dammit 13:10 < dx> hacks. 13:10 < eddyb> Kavukamari: I need to make something large-scale with that 13:10 < eddyb> and then complete hematite, JITting parts of a world 13:10 < dx> has anyone made something like a "redstone machine compiler"? 13:11 < eddyb> to the point where simulating a CPU in minecraft becomes simulating a CPU in machine code 13:11 < dx> something that generates redstone layouts based on some source code 13:11 < eddyb> and then you can just inline the ROM 13:11 < Kavukamari> ooh my favorite dumb useless thing I made was instant on instant off 1 tick "cooldown" piston diode and not gate 13:11 < eddyb> and you end up with dynamic binary translation 13:11 < Kavukamari> they were massive though 13:11 < Kavukamari> like 4x3x4 i think 13:11 < Kavukamari> i forget 13:12 < eddyb> I hate that I couldn't use pistons properly 13:12 < Kavukamari> why not? 13:12 < eddyb> like, to push/pull a redstone block, you can't use vertical pistons 13:12 < eddyb> which might have made the design more compact 13:12 < Kavukamari> ah yeah you cant push them up 13:12 < Kavukamari> down works though doesnt it 13:12 < eddyb> but still nowhere near acceptable speeds 13:12 < Kavukamari> you can now with slime blocks cant you 13:13 < Kavukamari> push up 13:13 < eddyb> deebee hinted at an instawire of sorts (with limitations, ofc) that I I thought I could maybe use to complete my CPU/RAM assembly 13:13 < eddyb> Kavukamari: OH! 13:13 < eddyb> I didn't think of slime blocks 13:13 < Kavukamari> i still hate the 12 block limit on pushing 13:14 < Kavukamari> hahaha 1x3x1 vertical bud 13:14 < Thinkofdeath> Amaranth: Interesting plugin 13:14 < Kavukamari> well 1x4x1 with the push space 13:15 < Kavukamari> up piston, slime block on top, redstoneblockon top of that 13:16 < Thinkofdeath> Amaranth: The plugin loader system in bukkit kinda sucks :P 13:16 <+Amaranth> Yep 13:18 < Thinkofdeath> ended up manually loading the js plugins since that part doesn't work 13:18 < Thinkofdeath> and the fact that bukkit only allows for yml plugin descriptions is a pain 13:19 * Thinkofdeath might convert javascript objects into yml to work around that 13:20 < Kavukamari> anyone know why itemframes won't show their customname above them? 13:21 < Thinkofdeath> Kavukamari: they use the name of the item inside them instead 13:22 < Kavukamari> hmm i guess they still have an sir in them when there's no item as well.. 13:22 < Kavukamari> air* 13:23 < Kavukamari> what a bother.. I wish it would show the item frame's name instead if there was no named item 13:23 < Kavukamari> I suppose I could add named items to all of my item frames one at a time 13:26 < Kavukamari> I wish target selectors had dot notation and could be used anywhere in commands.. 13:27 < Kavukamari> of course then a ton of new dot notation things would be needed unless you could use nbt compounds or something 13:28 < Kavukamari> anyone build anything interesting with command blocks lately? 13:36 < dx> cindy_k: holy shit asana is so good. 13:38 < Fenhl> eddyb: that talk is amazing 13:38 < eddyb> yava 13:39 < Kavukamari> was it unintentional for entities that aren't players to be able to be added to teams? it sure is a convenient mistake if it was 13:42 < eddyb> using UUIDs? 13:42 < Kavukamari> I'm using target selectors, but I think those work too 13:44 < Kavukamari> I try not to use uuid's cause they change so much and they're clunky and hard to type 13:44 < Kavukamari> well they change if your entity despawns i mean 13:58 < Kavukamari> sigh I guess I have to use paintings as pointer entities rather than item frames if item frames wont show their name 14:04 < Kavukamari> if you ask me, CustomNameVisible should override all other name behaviors and force the [CustomName visible constantly] behavior, that makes the most sense to me 14:05 < eddyb> consistent behavior? 14:05 < eddyb> have you forgotten this is a game? more importantly, have you forgotten we're talking about minecraft? 14:07 < Kavukamari> wait is this against my assertation or neutral to it i cant tell with text 14:08 < eddyb> Kavukamari: I'm mocking the context 14:09 < eddyb> why do people want minecraft to be perfect? that can only lead to frustration :P 14:09 < Kavukamari> yeah that's what I thought ok good 14:13 < Kavukamari> like with mobs and item frames, the names that do show do so automatically without CustomNameVisible, so setting that on should do what it naturally does, which is force the specified name on constantly 14:16 < Kavukamari> I'm at the time of night where I can't tell if I'm hungry or just in pain from ignoring sleepiness... 14:23 < cindy_k> Grum / Dinnerbone could you add a note that you are updating to the crossed out forum post? 14:24 < cindy_k> it would help calm some of the panic'd peeps who don't twitter that I am getting 14:27 < Kavukamari> the thing that blew me away about the eula junk was that the changes were benefiting servers and people thought it was the end of the world because of the "enforcing eula" and "changing slightly" parts 14:36 < Kavukamari> so with serverside resourcepacks, you could add separate sound events for each sound so you could play specific noises ? 14:41 < Fenhl> wait, have they changed the eula yet? 14:41 < Kavukamari> i have no clue 14:42 < cindy_k> they aren't changing the eula 14:42 < cindy_k> https://help.mojang.com/customer/portal/articles/1590522-minecraft-commercial-use 14:43 < Kavukamari> so it's just the actual enforcing part, no changes then? 14:43 < cindy_k> well the eula says no monetization at all 14:43 < cindy_k> everything else is talk 14:51 < Kavukamari> I'm liking the acceptable monetization post, it's basically saying "stop scamming people" 14:55 < humerusj> hi 14:55 < Kavukamari> yo 14:55 < humerusj> This whole bukkit closing thing is pretty interesting 14:56 < cindy_k> its not closing, https://twitter.com/Dinnerbone/statuses/502389963606867968 14:56 < humerusj> cindy_k: Oh, didn't know Mojang owned the project. 14:57 < cindy_k> they are having a management shift. what that will mean going forward after 1.8 is tbd 15:44 < Kavukamari> im gunna start gearing down for bed 17:56 < nickelpro> eddyb: there's a horizontal offset? Why in the world would there be a horizontal offset? 17:56 < nickelpro> whoops 17:56 < nickelpro> ignore that 17:56 < eddyb> lol 18:25 < bgale> I wonder what this means for the non-mojang bukkit team 18:25 < bgale> Will they be downing tools? 20:32 < Not-9d73> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac pushed 6 commits [+4/-0/±16] http://git.io/6K5EXQ 20:32 < Not-9d73> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac 1557a2a - Started on better window click handling. 20:32 < Not-9d73> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac ff34e7f - Minor documentation and test improvements. 20:32 < Not-9d73> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac a9be4c8 - Revamped WindowClickHandler to make use of WindowClickLogic. 20:32 < Not-9d73> [Glowstone] ... and 3 more commits. 20:33 < dx> \o/ 20:37 <+AndrewPH> top kek this whole bukket thing 20:48 <+SirCmpwn> what's going on with bukkit? 20:49 < redstonehelper> SirCmpwn: copied/pasted from another channel, slightly biased: evilseph, the lead guy on bukkit, decided mojang is literally hitler and stopped all work on bukkit, but then mojang swept in, told him bukkit is mojang property and will live on, even if he won't work on it 20:49 < redstonehelper> maybe more than slightly 20:49 <+SirCmpwn> wow, what assholes 20:49 <+SpaceManiac> Seph quit, Mojang owned Bukkit the whole time and Dinner will be performing the 1.8 update 20:49 < redstonehelper> I might need to add that bukkit was sold to mojang a while ago 20:49 <+SirCmpwn> everyone involved being assholes, that is 20:49 <+SirCmpwn> no particular side 20:50 < redstonehelper> it was sold when the bukkit guys were hired at mojang 20:50 < redstonehelper> what makes you think of seph as an asshole, what makes you think of mojang as assholes? 20:51 < M4GNV5> you are talking about the bukkit ending or not stuff thing? 20:52 < redstonehelper> yep 20:52 <+SirCmpwn> well 20:52 < dx> END OF THE WORLD 20:52 < M4GNV5> ahh ps hi SirCmpwn 20:52 <+SirCmpwn> I don't neccessarily believe that any of them are assholes 20:52 <+SirCmpwn> I think they are all _acting_ like assholes 20:52 <+SirCmpwn> seph for discontinuing a project that is important to many people 20:53 < M4GNV5> but anyways wasnt that clear? i saw some ppl of the mojang team hanging out here a long time ago 20:53 <+SirCmpwn> mojang for stepping in and forcing their hand 20:53 < dx> ehhh you just got one sentence describing it in a biased way, no need to jump to conclusions like that 20:53 < redstonehelper> I think he should be allowed to stop doing it, but it is asshole-ish to stop everyone else working on it from doing it 20:53 <+SirCmpwn> and mojang especially for promising a mod API years ago and appeasing youtubers instead the whole time 20:53 <+SirCmpwn> okay, maybe mojang are persistent assholes, rather than just acting like them at the moment 20:54 <+SirCmpwn> and I did look up some info and do some external research about it, dx 20:54 < dx> SirCmpwn: the main reason (or rather, the final nail in the coffin) for evilseph's decision was the EULA being enforced by mojang, which leaves bukkit's legal situation in fucked up status 20:54 < dx> it made sense to me 20:54 <+SirCmpwn> well, mojang has been complete shits about their EULAs and such lately 20:54 < redstonehelper> it made sense until mojang came out and said they own bukkit 20:54 < dx> yup 20:54 <+SirCmpwn> and bukkit has always been in figuratively hot water from a legal standpoint 20:55 < dx> well yeah, but there was no threat 20:55 <+SirCmpwn> mmhm 20:55 <+SirCmpwn> like I said, assholes as far as the eye can see 20:55 < redstonehelper> what a lovely picture 20:55 < dx> hahah 20:55 < M4GNV5> ^^ 20:55 < nickelpro> So how exactly do you "sell" an open source project? 20:55 < nickelpro> change the license holder? 20:56 <+SirCmpwn> presumably 20:56 < dx> sorta 20:56 < dx> it's vague 20:56 <+Ac-town> in theory yes 20:56 <+Ac-town> but did bukkit get that signed off from all commiters? 20:56 <+SirCmpwn> not related to bukkit, but some open source projects use GPL and then sell permissive licenses 20:56 < nickelpro> I assume since Bukkit doesn't have a CLA that each commiter owns his code 20:56 < dx> Ac-town: nope, Amaranth has said he didn't know anything 20:57 <+SirCmpwn> hmm, I just realized that 20:57 * SirCmpwn pops some popcorn 20:57 <+Ac-town> but if all of bukkits code is in the open, mojang could just fork it 20:57 < nickelpro> And I don't really see seph signing over his code to mojand 20:57 <+Ac-town> and keep working on it 20:57 < nickelpro> Ac-town: Ya obviously, but mojang is going on about "owning" bukkit 20:57 < dx> it's not a license change anyway, it probably only gives a new meaning to the copyright that is already owned by the core bukkit devs 20:57 < nickelpro> It's not a concern, just a weird point that keeps being brought up 20:57 <+Ac-town> i'd bet its poor choice of words 20:57 <+Ac-town> and them freaking out 20:58 <+Ac-town> as bukkit saved the minecraft server market 20:58 < dx> heh 20:58 < dx> definitely worth freaking out 20:58 < redstonehelper> there's a very little bit of more info here, a comment by UMM: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/2e5u6a/bukkit_says_goodbye_to_modding/cjwkgwv?context=3 20:58 < redstonehelper> "Mojang "took over" two and a half years ago when EvilSeph, Db, Grvm and Tahg were hired, in the form of buying Bukkit (the name and the code) from Curse for a token amount." 20:59 <+SirCmpwn> they would have never had this problem if they had actually built a modding API 20:59 <+Ac-town> i'd think at that point bukkit was clear in the EULA 20:59 <+SirCmpwn> at this rate there won't be a modding API until long after minecraft has fallen into irrelevance 20:59 <+Ac-town> SirCmpwn: it sounds like that'll happen "soon" 20:59 <+SirCmpwn> but no! 20:59 <+AndrewPH> tl;dr: eula fud caused stupid bs to happen and this is all overly dramatic and dumb 20:59 <+SirCmpwn> let's add more commands 21:00 <+SirCmpwn> that'll be great, won't it 21:00 <+Ac-town> dont forget twitch support 21:00 * SpaceManiac shakes fist at command blocks 21:00 <+AndrewPH> itt: ac-town is a tree 21:00 < redstonehelper> do you think they'll work towards the api without adding any sort of features at all? 21:00 <+SirCmpwn> sethbling desperately needs a command for creating random entities 21:00 <+Ac-town> tree? 21:00 <+AndrewPH> yes. 21:00 <+SirCmpwn> drop everything 21:00 <+SirCmpwn> add it 21:00 <+Ac-town> I dun get it 21:00 < dx> redstonehelper: we're literally paying them to do that 21:00 <+AndrewPH> that's fine. 21:00 <+SirCmpwn> redstonehelper: they should have done that a very long time ago 21:00 < dx> (except that we're not) 21:00 < M4GNV5> SirCmpwn: new commands are great ^^ most of the stuff you can build with bukkit etc. you can also build with vanilla now 21:01 < nickelpro> Ok but how did Curse own the code? 21:01 <+SirCmpwn> they should have dropped everything and built a modding API and released a new version where that was the only improvement 21:01 <+SirCmpwn> and they should have done that two years ago 21:01 < redstonehelper> from what I gathered from evilseph's post on the bukkit forums, curse offered some sort of hosting for bukkit when they really needed it 21:01 <+SirCmpwn> M4GNV5: I hate command blocks with a firey passion, you won't convince me 21:01 < dx> nickelpro: they probably owned the name, the code, who knows. 21:02 < dx> curse also owns the souls of the bukkit developers 21:02 < dx> that was part of the contract 21:02 <+SirCmpwn> curse is an aptly named company 21:02 < nickelpro> dx: the name I believe, but Bukkit never had a CLA. Every random code contribution outside the core developers wouldn't be theirs to sell 21:02 <+SirCmpwn> I'm dealing with them now in the Kerbal Space Program world 21:02 < shoghicp> D: 21:02 < M4GNV5> :D 21:03 <+SirCmpwn> here's evilseph's post without strikethroughs and bukkit.org https://gist.github.com/SirCmpwn/b2742577410739895511 21:04 * SirCmpwn reads 21:05 <+Fador> nickelpro: also there's something like "derived work" described in GPL I believe..so changes on top of someone elses code would be forced to GPL 21:05 < nickelpro> Fador: Yes, they would be GPL, but the licenser of the code would be the code author 21:06 < M4GNV5> so now what exactly forbids the new EULA? only stuff like bukkit/spigot? or also stuff like glowstone or partycraft? 21:06 <+SirCmpwn> haha, partycraft, someone actually remembers that exists 21:06 < M4GNV5> yeah ^^ but it seems you dont remember me SirCmpwn :P 21:06 < nickelpro> Fador: Without a CLA you wouldn't be able to transfer ownership of the code base without every code author's approval 21:06 <+SirCmpwn> I only come to #mcdevs these days to rant about Mojang every now and then 21:06 <+SirCmpwn> sorry, M4GNV5 21:06 < shoghicp> M4GNV5: that's what I've been looking for these days 21:07 <+Fador> nickelpro: yeah, that was my point =) 21:07 < nickelpro> Fador: So they question arises, how is Mojang claiming to own Bukkit? 21:07 < M4GNV5> so in fact i dont really think that e.g. the german law allows you to forbid stuff like glowstone/partycraft... 21:08 <+Fador> nickelpro: that's what I'm also wondering.. 21:08 < M4GNV5> SirCmpwn: you shoudlnt know me from #mcdevs ^^ i am banned in #Craft.NET ^^ 21:08 < nickelpro> M4GNV5: lol, what did you do? 21:08 <+SirCmpwn> oh really? now I want to know who you are 21:08 * SirCmpwn pulls up logs 21:09 < M4GNV5> :D i were a newbie to github 21:09 < nickelpro> Ah, offtopic 21:09 < M4GNV5> i told ya that some events in the client werent working 21:09 < M4GNV5> and asked you how i can do pr and all the stuff 21:09 <+SirCmpwn> https://mediacru.sh/QjgVxsuIYWlz 21:10 < M4GNV5> ohh yeah you found it ^^ 21:10 < dx> lol 21:10 < dx> good job M4GNV5 21:10 < nickelpro> whoa 21:10 < nickelpro> That's priceless 21:10 <+SirCmpwn> I'm not known for my patience 21:11 < M4GNV5> ^^ everybody was i child one day ;) 21:11 <+SirCmpwn> you still are a child 21:11 <+SirCmpwn> those logs are from May 21:11 < M4GNV5> yeah ^^ 21:11 < M4GNV5> may 2013? 21:11 <+SirCmpwn> 2014 21:11 < dx> < M4GNV5> okay sry than why dont you just fix your stuff yourself hmm? 21:11 < M4GNV5> nah they should be older 21:11 < dx> dis guy 21:11 < M4GNV5> thats unfair 21:12 < M4GNV5> SirCmpwn: left the stuff he said... 21:12 <+SirCmpwn> 2014-05-07 21:12 < M4GNV5> lol kay 21:12 < Not-9d73> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac deleted branch inventory 21:12 < dx> that conversation actually started 4 hours before that 21:12 * SirCmpwn sighs 21:13 <+SirCmpwn> here: http://ix.io/dZ9 21:13 < dx> so i'm not surprised he lost patience 21:13 < nickelpro> 4 hours actually sounds like a lot of patience 21:16 < dx> especially for SirCmpwn 21:16 * dx cough 21:16 < M4GNV5> anyways i came here for the discussion about the bukkit thing ^^ 21:16 <+SirCmpwn> oh man 21:16 <+SirCmpwn> you were the one that convinced me to ban webchat as a whole 21:16 <+SirCmpwn> hahaha 21:17 < M4GNV5> than i am glad that i dont use webchat anymore :P 21:17 < nickelpro> [20:21:52] the world is made better without webchat [20:57:37] ^ 21:17 < nickelpro> Made me giggle 21:18 < nickelpro> I'm trying to figure out a sane way to handle entity metadata in C 21:18 < eddyb> C? 21:18 < eddyb> > sane 21:18 < nickelpro> lol 21:19 <+SirCmpwn> I have an implementation in C# that should be fairly easy to translate to C# 21:19 <+SirCmpwn> err, to C 21:19 <+SirCmpwn> https://github.com/SirCmpwn/Craft.Net/blob/master/source/Craft.Net.Common/MetadataDictionary.cs 21:19 < nickelpro> C# is usually easy to translate to C# I find 21:19 <+SirCmpwn> and related files in that directory 21:19 < nickelpro> and thanks SirCmpwn 21:19 < dx> eddyb: you just had to appear out of nowhere to indirectly fanboy about rust 21:20 < nickelpro> Arguments about language superiority and complaining about Mojang is 95% of the reason I lurk this channel 21:20 <+SirCmpwn> rust looks cool but I'm waiting until it settles down before I use it 21:20 < dx> nickelpro: probably because that's 95% of this channel 21:20 < dx> rust sucks 21:20 < dx> not because it does, but because eddyb likes it and i for some reason i like to bother eddyb now 21:20 < M4GNV5> anyone here playing unturned? ^^ 21:21 <+SirCmpwn> I'm surprised that the mojang devs still idle here 21:21 <+SirCmpwn> has anyone said anything nice about them in the past year 21:21 < dx> i think we said "thanks" once for the positive changes in 1.7 21:21 < eddyb> SirCmpwn: I thanked Grvm this morning 21:22 < dx> honestly though, i don't know, but we weren't thankful enough for that 21:22 < nickelpro> Grüm 21:22 < dx> nickelpro: not utf-8 detected 21:22 < M4GNV5> nickelpro: dat german ^^ 21:22 < dx> nickelpro: the utf-8 police is going to catch you 21:22 <+SirCmpwn> what changed for the better in 1.7 21:23 < M4GNV5> more commands :P 21:23 < dx> SirCmpwn: we harassed them several times to get length prefixed packets and utf-8, we got it 21:23 <+SirCmpwn> oh, that's nice 21:23 < nickelpro> And a shiny new protocol layout for free 21:24 <+SirCmpwn> oh, was it *that* change? 21:24 <+SirCmpwn> no, fuck that update 21:24 < dx> hahah 21:24 < nickelpro> lol, that's how everyone felt at the time 21:24 < dx> even if you don't like the rest of the protocol, we gotta thank them for the length prefixed packets and utf-8, at least. 21:25 <+SirCmpwn> meh 21:25 <+SirCmpwn> varints makes that a pain in the ass anyway 21:25 <+SirCmpwn> I have this in my code now because of that update: private static readonly Type[][][] NetworkModes; 21:26 < nickelpro> SirCmpwn: Ya I'm not thrilled about protocol states 21:26 < M4GNV5> so if bukkit really wont be updated for 1.8 why dont everybody just stay at 1.7.x i mean as SirCmpwn fuck updates ^^ most people like to play on their big servers so they will be forced to play on 1.7 too... 21:26 < dx> M4GNV5 pls 21:26 <+SirCmpwn> I've been playing beta 1.7.3 a lot recently 21:26 < dx> we're talking about real issues here 21:26 < dx> drama time is over 21:26 < nyuszika7h> M4GNV5: Dinnerbone said he will update it to 1.8 21:26 <+SirCmpwn> I'm thinking about forking Craft.Net and just fleshing it out with b1.7.3 support 21:27 < nyuszika7h> (sorry for the highlight DB) 21:27 < M4GNV5> dx: okay sry :D 21:27 < dx> use 'dinnerbro' next time 21:27 <+SirCmpwn> d!nnerbone 21:27 <+SirCmpwn> I personally prefer the nickname "sethblingsbitch" 21:27 < dx> ! 21:28 < dx> SirCmpwn: being polite as usual, i see 21:28 < nickelpro> or 'dinner[profanityhere]' depending on how you feel about mojang devs 21:29 <+SirCmpwn> I actually spent some time a couple of weeks ago fixing up seth's website 21:29 <+SirCmpwn> first I had heard from him in over a year 21:29 < dx> hah 21:29 < nickelpro> dx: fixed my utf-8, probably, should have, maybe. Grüm 21:29 < dx> nickelpro: excellent 21:29 < M4GNV5> dx: mine? üäö 21:30 <+SirCmpwn> haha 21:30 < dx> M4GNV5: also good 21:30 <+SirCmpwn> I just realized that I'm a three-star dev because of minecraft 1.7 21:30 < dx> wtf is a "three-star dev" 21:30 < nickelpro> SirCmpwn: You outrank me 21:30 * nickelpro salutes 21:30 <+SirCmpwn> someone with three levels of pointers 21:30 <+SirCmpwn> ***value 21:30 < dx> hah 21:32 < barneygale> If Mojang owns craftbukkit, that means mojang have been releasing the minecraft server source as LGPL for 2 years, right? No legal grey areas 21:32 < barneygale> Sorry if this has already been discussed 21:32 <+SirCmpwn> hmmmmmmmmmmmmm 21:32 <+SirCmpwn> that is an incredibly interesting point 21:32 < nickelpro> Honestly I don't think they thought out the "we own bukkit" statements very far 21:32 < redstonehelper> it means they(whatever that means) have been releasing bukkit as LGPL or whatever license it has for years 21:33 < dx> barneygale: maybe! there's definitely some gray stuff in there 21:33 <+SirCmpwn> redstonehelper: craftbukkit contains decompiled minecraft code 21:33 <+SirCmpwn> and is released under LGPL 21:33 < redstonehelper> I know 21:33 < dx> LGPL or GPL 21:33 < dx> or both 21:33 < dx> or neither 21:33 <+SirCmpwn> and up until now has been legally questionable because of it 21:33 < barneygale> right, because mojang might suddenly pull the plug and say "you've never been authorised to do this" 21:33 <+SirCmpwn> but if mojang owns that code, they have released decompiled minecraft code under LGPL 21:34 <+SirCmpwn> which has a lot of really fun implications :D 21:34 < barneygale> but if they own it, they can't retroactively remove a license they passively OK'd with every release 21:34 < nickelpro> And now everyone can release that code as long as the follow the LGPL 21:34 < barneygale> yes, exactly 21:34 < barneygale> md/5 need not consult his lawyers 21:34 < redstonehelper> it's not like mojang/bukkit have stopped anybody from doing that 21:34 < barneygale> this is a big win for spigot I think 21:34 <+SirCmpwn> has anyone even tried to do that, redstonehelper 21:34 < dx> barneygale: well no, he still needs to ask a professional about this 21:35 < barneygale> true 21:35 < redstonehelper> SirCmpwn: heh, good point. I don't know. 21:35 < barneygale> I was being a bit hyperbolic but it doesn't come across well in text 21:35 <+SirCmpwn> afaik bukkit and related projects is the only serious one that uses decompiled code 21:35 < nickelpro> barneygale: Do tweets from former Bukkit devs constitute Mojang's true legal stance on the subject? 21:35 < dx> and it's sad that everyone interpreted "consult a lawyer" as "sue mojang" instead of just "ask for advice" 21:35 < barneygale> nickelpro: I thought jeb said as much? 21:35 < redstonehelper> jeb said so on twitter 21:35 < barneygale> or was it only evilseph 21:36 < nickelpro> barneygale: Does jeb have the authority to speak on behalf of Mojang's legal team? (legit question, not sarcastic) 21:36 < redstonehelper> but still, personal opinion/personal account and whatever other legalities they haven't disclosed yet 21:36 <+SirCmpwn> https://tldrlegal.com/license/lisp-lesser-general-public-license