View Full Version : Goliath Level Adjustment 0

03-10-2012, 05:11 PM
I request your help in determining the penalties required to make goliath race level adjustment zero and retain the stat bonuses and the powerful build ability.

03-10-2012, 06:07 PM
You'd have to give them some pretty serious penalties, as both of those things are great and being acclimated and climbing quicker is what I like to call an "utterly useless bull**** bonus". I'm not really sure what they could do away with as a penalty, though. Maybe make it a +2 to str rather than +4, maybe take away the large-sized weapon provision of Powerful build so it only works for grappling and other combat maneuvers.

03-11-2012, 03:23 PM
I'm pretty sure he wants to retain the +4 bonus to strength and the powerful build for WEAPONS specifically. He wouldn't want that removed.

As for penalties, -2 to int, wisdom, charisma, and dexterity is a good start, but isn't going to cut it.

Any ideas anyone?

03-11-2012, 03:47 PM
Don't they already have a dexterity penalty?

You could make them even steeper, or create a vulnerability like light sensitivity or some kind of penalty to attack rolls or something. Powerful build alone is probably why it's LA 1 and without modifying it or reducing any of the bonuses at all it'll be tough to whittle it down.

Just to Browse
03-11-2012, 04:48 PM
Orc stats are a nice base: +4 Str, -2 Mental. I don't like the +Con for -Dex, but its not horrible of an idea.

Then perhaps powerful build with -2 Dex and dazzled in sunlight? The problem is those 3d6 + 1.5Str greatswords... which makes me think, it could be OK delaying the powerful build till level 3-4, because Str begins to offer diminishing returns as levels scale (sneak attack and spells like fireball etc. will eclipse it). Powerful build could put a hold on the ineffectiveness.

Also, dazzled in sunlight could be a small penalty to offset some of the small bonuses like standing jump and monstrous humanoid type and all that. The rest is really just fluff.

03-11-2012, 04:52 PM
Homebrewer NeoSeraphi has an LA 0 Giant race that you can look at here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211283). You could structure your penalties along those lines. It's important to realize though that he strips his giants of their stat bonuses; since you want to keep them, you might have to make the penalties and flaws even steeper.

03-11-2012, 07:20 PM
A Goliath, with 0 LA, who keeps Powerful Build and +4 Str/+2 Con? Going to be tough. Let's see...

Lower the base movement speed to 20'. Have Powerful Build give you the penalties of being Large as well (-4 to Hide checks, -1 to attack rolls and AC).

Have the Goliath take a -2 penalty to all Dexterity ability checks and Dexterity-based skill checks, including initiative, as well as Reflex saves, and have their Dexterity score count as 2 lower than it actually is for the purposes of qualifying for feats (this is all in addition to the racial Dexterity penalty).

All of this together should help you balance the race while sticking to the fluff, as well as keeping penalties that are actually relevant to a barbarian or fighter instead of just lopping mental ability score penalties on him

03-11-2012, 07:40 PM
I'm all for the further dexterity penalties, but the entire purpose of the powerful build racial ability was having the benefits of a large character without the penalties. Otherwise, everything's good.

Also, I'm assuming the movement speed works like the dwarfs'. i.e. it doesn't change even if you wear heavy armor.
Otherwise, that'll just be too slow.

03-12-2012, 01:20 AM
Otherwise, that'll just be too slow.

Tell that to Halflings and Gnomes.:smalltongue:

03-12-2012, 02:01 AM
How about working the stats from orcs and make powerfull build a racial feat? It is pretty close to monkey grip in power.

03-12-2012, 09:18 AM

That there makes the most sense to my mind. Make the requirement Race: Goliath, and you should be sorted. Then you can have your stat adjustments and have the option of powerful build, but it doesn't all turn up at once unless you use your starting feat too (I used the same system to make a LA +1 Pixie, and offered 3 feats to 'top it up', works remarkably well if you don't want the hassle of Savage Species). Regardless, even with Seraphi's Dex nerf strategy you'll be hard pressed to come up with everything you want in a workable LA 0 race...you can only give so much at 1st level.

03-12-2012, 02:17 PM
Well, if we're going with using powerful build as a racial feat, I might have some ideas.
There's a race in a book called Frostburn: Neanderthal.
Gives +2 Strength AND Constitution, for a meager -2 dex and int, along with +2 to spot and listen.
It has horrible illiteracy, but considering how awesome a barbarian it is, it doesn't matter.
AND it's level adjustment zero.
So, if we're just going by +4 Str and +2 Con, would -2 Dex, Cha and Int be fine?
If that's not enough, just add a -2 Wisdom, and I'm pretty sure it's complete.
The powerful build just has to be bought as a racial feat.

Everyone agree?

03-12-2012, 02:23 PM
Here, for your reference, a Water Orc (Unearthed Arcana) is +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, LA 0. If you take away Powerful Build and make it a racial feat instead, this stat array should be fine. Since the Goliath already has -2 Dex, I guess you can spare yourself the Wisdom penalty.

03-12-2012, 04:50 PM
-2 Dex, Int & Cha is enough to pay for the +4 Str & +2 Con, leave Wis as it is, since these guys will want at least one un-nerfed mental stat! Powerful Build as racial feat, job done! I'd certainly allow it at my table.

Just to Browse
03-15-2012, 04:38 AM
The water orc should not be used as a balance point--it's one of the most commonly used min-max melee races outside of the human because of its immense melee bonuses and nearly negligible penalties.

Orc/Neanderthal is where we should be looking. And keep in mind the fact that everything outside of Str/Con can probably be made a dump stat, so stacking an even number of penalties would not be sufficient.

+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, Int, Wis, Cha makes a solid amount of sense, and the racial feat for powerful build is a really good idea... I think Powerful Build should really just be a monstrous feat for anyone, actually.

... This is just crying to be a 1-level class.