Google's Broken Hiring Process en-us Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 -0500 Sat, 12 Jul 2014 20:55:16 -0400 Ryan Tate AemployeeatA Sat, 12 Dec 2009 06:04:47 -0500 Seems like the work culture is going downwards in Google. So are you one of those elitist employees? Actuallly Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:47:12 -0500 So what's Bill Gates' GPA? Or Micheal dell's GPA ...or? Mickey Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:48:10 -0400 There was never a requirement that someone know why a manhole cover is round. The purpose of questions like that (and similar questions) was to get the candidate to think on their feet about a topic that they probably had little grounding in. If I asked someone the manhole cover question and they came back immediately with an answer, I'd ask them a different question until I got to see how they would think and how they solve problems/situations. I don't really care about what they've memorized -- if I did, I'd ask them about their GPA. Now that's a stupid question. roc Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:58:56 -0400 We don't know that. The critical missing piece is whether the average 4.0 MIT guy is actually producing better results than would a 3.5 midwest state schooler that got weeded out. The fact that passion counts for far more than '4's during their interview process strongly suggests this may not be the case. And that perhaps more-passionate '2's would perform better than apathetic '4's. antonymouscowherd Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:35:31 -0400 I've been pinged by Google recruiters once a year for the past three years. Obviously I'm doing something that shows up on their radar, right? Extremely puzzling then why they just ... can't ... seem ... to execute. It's like "analysis paralysis"/obsession with data collection applied to HR. To give an example: Two years ago I was doing technical consulting for a large financial company in Manhattan. I read the writing on the wall and decided that being disposable in the coming downturn was not a good place to be, so I looked for a full time gig. My search came down to three finalists: the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Google, and my present employer whom I would like to remain nameless. The first interviews with all three went swimmingly as far as I could tell. Follow up responses from all three: 1) FRBoNY -- promised a call to schedule next steps, never happened. Who knows, maybe they were too busy rolling in piles of cash in a vault somewhere while giggling madly? 2) Google -- "well, we'd like to fly you out for several more interviews, by the way could you commit to working at mountain view for several months before transferring back to ny?" (Never mind whatever entanglements I might have like horrendously expensive Manhattan apartment leases, dependents in the swing of a school term, etc. right?) 3) Present employer -- had a physical offer letter literally in my hands across town mere hours after our face to face. It arrived as irony had it twenty minutes after the above conversation with Google. Now, my present employer has their own problems as any organization composed of human beings would, but the ability to execute is so key that I forgive most of them. WTF Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:21:24 -0400 Agree with earlier comments that its a sneeky form of age discrimination coupled with obsession with class rank, GPA and pedigree of University. Interviewed there in '06 for an Industry Marketing job(marketing and sales); 6 interviews(over 1 month), including two intense screener interviews on the phone; various tests(one was 1.5 hrs - a basic aptitude test). The short of it: my 20+ years of service in large tech media firms was chucked out the window because of my 2.6 GPA (I forgot my GPA - thought it was 2.9-3.1 - when I got my transcripts, I was shocked to see how low it was), I'm not an engineer - so I don't remember things like GPAs. Anything less than 3.0, coupled with my age at the time (47). Fagetaboutit-as they say in Brooklyn. Bill Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:56:28 -0400 its an analyst role with a capped commission. enough said. Steve Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:46:34 -0400 @LOL: that may be the case now at Google, but I have met several successful engineers from companies like Apple who dropped out of top tier schools in their first or second year. In the heyday lots of engineers dropped out of college in the 80's & 90's to do to work in the valley. I find it hilarious that Google has now hired all of these straight A's, but is led by a couple of drop outs. LA Tech Fri, 30 Oct 2009 07:26:32 -0400 The average Googler goes through 7-10 interviews during the hiring process. This is everything you wanna know about how fucked up Google is to work with. Ridiculous Fri, 30 Oct 2009 03:07:15 -0400 This discussion is ludicrous. GPA matters when someone graduates from college because it is a measure of their commitment to the metric they are being judged by : grades. The difference between a 4.0 and a 3.7 isn't really that interesting. But the difference between a 2.2 and a 3.7 is quite interesting. Likely, someone with a C average in the field that you are interested in hiring them for (say, software engineering), will be a shitty employee. They might be a great entrepreneur, but they're going to be a shitty employee. Because they don't care about their chosen field, and they don't care about being measured by someone else's yardstick. But those are both critical for good "employees" :) They might make for a good entrepreneur (though more likely, they'll be better at work that doesn't require them to excel). The percentages are not in their favor, but some will do quite well. Some will have low GPAs for entirely different reasons (learning disabilities, family tragedy, working to pay their way through school), and likely those folks will do just fine after school is out. The real issue with Google's approach is asking about GPA for someone with more than a couple years of experience. They used to ask for full college transcripts. That's a bit ridiculous level of detail for someone with 5-25 years of industry experience. They should be far more interested in your career journey than in your GPA from 20 yrs ago. (or even 5). After all, many people under- or over- achieve their GPA in the real world. Similarly, when you interview someone you focus mostly on their last job, not their first job... "what have you done for me lately" is a good motto :) Target Fri, 30 Oct 2009 01:16:20 -0400 I remember hearing that George Steinbrenner once gave a commencement address that included something to the effect of "The B student go to work for the government, while the A students go to work for the C students". LOL MUST WORK AT GOOGLE Fri, 30 Oct 2009 00:05:34 -0400 I love that you still remember your sad sad GPA. Time to move on from high school when you were the "nerd." Your mother is calling cuz it's time for dinner, don't forget to take out the trash and stop using the family computer to look at porn. LOL Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:16:17 -0400 I am of an age that's considered either young or old depending on who I am talking to. Without getting into my personal finance, let's just say what I said so far comes from my experience as a hard core engineer and as a technical lead/manager in the silicon valley. I do think that applicability of my experience varies a bit depending on the field or "products". Without disclosing my background further, I will say that my viewpoint directly applies to Google's hiring of engineers. Judging from your comments, I just think you are not very familiar with the type of work they do at Google and other high tech companies. But hats off to you for your success. 395793 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:13:36 -0400 I interviewed at the main Google campus in Mountain View in 07. My interviewer cut the nastiest fart ever to enter my nostrils. It was a pungent mix of fermented broccoli and limburger cheese. After wading in the stench for 3 minutes, the chubby fellow strongly suggested I visit the rest room. I accepted his offer and didn't bother to come back. I did grab an Its It ice cream sandwich on the way out though so the wasted morning was worth it. candidate Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:00:31 -0400 I had a phone interview with Google where i had to write code using Google Docs online. Unfortunately the Google interviewer/engineer had a very heavy accent that I couldn't understand what he was saying at all. First I asked him to repeat the questions a couple of time, and later I had to ask him to type out the questions. He was irritated that he had to keep repeating the question, and wouldn't type out the questions. It's the worst phone screen I've experienced. not good enough Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:57:13 -0400 I actually experienced this a few years back. 20+ years in ad sales. 8 years at a major portal with clients who recommended me to Google for a display position. The recruiter called told me she had heard great things from clients and asked if I would be interested. I mentioned that their hiring practice excluded me because of my GPA of 2.9. I further mentioned that in my 15 years of sales management I made it a point to look at candidates sales performance as a key indicator of success. And when you think of it, Googlers really don't sell. Googlers are simply customer service reps. Ask ad execs....ALGORHYTMS are what sell! Moral of the story don't judge sales people as you judge engineers! adam Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:44:22 -0400 You are obviously young. That's OK you have to justify your years of scholastic work and the 100k =/- of debt somehow. But has it ever occurred to you that you may have been sold a bag of goods? There are many in The Valley who hold different sets of regard towards your degree. Google has shown very little innovation from within - we all know that. They buy their innovation and those companies and products generally don't come from 4.0 GPA Engineers. They come from all sorts of people regardless of their diploma or GPA. People come in all shapes, sizes and personalities. Grades are a very narrow gauge of quality. And that's really my point. To limit your hiring pool to those who look like you, act like you, do like you only limits your potential. Out in the real world only a young dweeb cares about their GPA. I went to a college that doesnt even have grades. I guess that makes me a less desirable candidate even though I've started and sold several companies. Go figure. I hire people based on their skills and ability not on how well they performed in school. That's why we produce better products and are the ones being acquired. You'll work in a cube for the rest of your career, nothing wrong with that if that's what you want. I may even hire you someday to build something designed by a college drop out. Pete S Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:22:27 -0400 They learned this lesson only recently. Jake Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:07:11 -0400 "Microsoft learned that puzzles and brainteasers are not indicators of future employee value" Pray tell then why hasn't Microsoft been able to get the employees with the brains to go toe to to with Google in their search result relevance? It is embarrassing how shitty Bing's search results are compared to Google and god knows Microsoft has tried hard in that space. LOL Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:06:26 -0400 "The smartest, best engineers and most inventive folk I have worked with were all college drop outs." I hate to break this to you but I think you haven't seen the real engineers that make up the *core* of enduring high tech companies like MS, Intel, BRCM, Nvidia, Qualcomm, Google, etc. Most of them are phD's (some with Masters and Bachelors) with great GPAs from tier 1 research universities. "Most great entrepreneurs are drop outs." First of all, Google is not hiring entrepreneurs. Secondly, that's not true. And how do you know they didn't have good GPAs? But I do think that GPA is less important for starting a company. For many without family fortune to fall back on, it takes a lot of courage. Often they are forced to start their own business because they couldn't get a job. That's why I think you find quite a few who used to do not so well as students and employees. Arrogant Google Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:33:36 -0400 Good try, but you are COMPLETELY MISTAKEN. Some interviews do drag out longer than they should, but not for anywhere near 9 MONTHS TO ONE YEAR. Arrogant Google Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:26:37 -0400 Exactly. It's the passion for the candidate that is predictive of performance, not the fact that the candidate scored poorly in ONE of the interviews. Duh! A few other notes: 1) Google interviews rarely involve "puzzles and brainteasers" . It's really mostly comp sci 101 stuff, design & scalability questions, basic algorithms & data structure questions, etc. 2) Google does not require GPAs or SAT scores from senior hires well out of university. Industry experience is absolutely important. kryptic Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:20:19 -0400 I wonder how much the implicit age discrimination in their hiring processes hurts them. kryptic Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:20:18 -0400 I wonder how much the implicit age discrimination in their hiring processes hurts them. ONE YEAR Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:17:01 -0400 Many Interviews stretch from 9 MONTHS TO ONE candidates have had to interview with 20+ interviewees whose schedule forever keeps changing. There can be weeks if not months between spurts of 2-3 interviews. And HR is not always clued into what's happening. Thats ONE PROCESS THAT NEEDS FIXING !! been there, done that Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:16:42 -0400 Look, you can pretty much google the answers to their questions. That makes their interviewing process meaningless. Their interviewing process is rigid. That ensures above-average quality of their new hires. But that's like picking up high quality droids! You're not making breakthrough products by hiring a massive number of droids! To back up this argument, look at Google's product line, or should I say the lack thereof. They're still a one-trick pony. Adam Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:14:01 -0400 The smartest, best engineers and most inventive folk I have worked with were all college drop outs. What a great GPA shows you in that they know how to fit into a box and follow instructions. It is by no means any indication of ones ability or intellectual capacity and doesnt tell me anything other than someone can follow instructions. Most great entrepreneurs are drop outs. Why is that? Its because they dont fit into the peg holes they are forced into in school. I'm not saying that great grades don't equate intelligence I am just saying that by ignoring the fundamentals of human personality differences you are limiting yourself to those people who fit your mold. This results in a culture of people who do not innovate, think outside the box or create or are just like you. Think about how we ended up in this financial mess. To me Its the same thing. The general lack of understanding of basic human behavior and the nuances of psychology that change the models basic premise. Jérémie Bertrand Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:06:40 -0400 There's a contradiction in your purpose that you kind of point yourself: people who get a one to one of the interviews get hired ONLY if one of the interviewers was truely passionate with the guy. This means, the guy really had something special. So this didn't mean that people who are dumbass and have one on four to all google's tests will be the best employees. This means, if you get a one but still get hired, you'll reach stars @ google. This is not the same thing, and this does ABSOLUTELY not mean that google's hiring process is bad. Eric Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:59:26 -0400 Microsoft learned that puzzles and brainteasers are not indicators of future employee value. It's interesting that Google is making the same mistakes (and learning the same lessons). Knowing why manhole covers are round will not help an employee solve big engineering problems and fit into a very unique culture. LOL Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:50:11 -0400 "College grades are no indication of ones ability, intelligence or aptitude. And certainly not an indicator of professional performance. " Are you kidding? GPA is probably the single best indicator of performance. Especially in engineering. Now, before everyone hits me with thumb downs, I am not saying that GPA is the ONLY indicator nor that every high performer had good GPA. But you give me a very high GPA person (from good schools) and I will show you someone who outperforms and can learn new skills faster. Nine of ten times. That's why the best companies in the silicon valley prefers "thoroughbreds" even though they cost more. adam Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:25:16 -0400 Any company that focuses on GPA's as an indication of professional ability is foolish and naive. They still ask people in their 30's for their college GPA's! WTF does that say about their focus as hiring managers? It tells me they never got over their college years or some sort of nerds revenge. College grades are no indication of ones ability, intelligence or aptitude. And certainly not an indicator of professional performance. They will fail because of this type of hiring and culture. Its only a matter of time. LOL Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:40:25 -0400 What do you mean no one remembers their GPA. Everyone remembers their GPA to the first decimal point...unless your GPA is so low that you want to forget. Dean Wormer Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:00:53 -0400 Ok Let's score this part of the process Asking someone who has 20+ years of experience and has been out of college at least 20+ years what their SAT scores and their GPA iwere : A) Ignors the value of experience over academia B) Really dumb because no one is going to remember C) A subtle form of age discrimination D) A reflection on just how young and inexperienced Google really is