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"running with scissors"

by merlyn (Sage)
on Aug 01, 2000 at 04:24 UTC ( #25371=monkdiscuss: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??




-- Randal L. Schwartz, Perl hacker

Comment on "running with scissors"
running with scissors - part 2
by merlyn (Sage) on Aug 01, 2000 at 04:39 UTC
    OK, as I was watching, someone voted this up, and someone else voted it down. Without giving feedback.

    If there's something I'm not getting, you need to tell me. Stop being a coward! Send me email or something. {sigh}

    Until then, I'm not posting any more public messages. Just /tell in the chatterbox. So the person posting the dangerous code will get feedback, but nobody else will have it as part of the permanent record.

    Since that's apparently what some of you lurkers want. Congratulations. You won.

    -- Randal L. Schwartz, Perl hacker

      OK, merlyn, what is it going to take?

      If you don't want to take the time to be helpful and courteous - then DON'T. No one is forcing you to reply at all. Others who DO care to take the time and spend the effort will fill the gap.

      But your argument about not having time won't hold water. You don't have time to be courteous. But you have time to make nicely formatted insulting posts. You have time to make formatted boxes around updates to wonder why no one likes the way you do things. But you don't have time to be polite. Gotcha.

      - email Ozymandias

      Update: OK, sorry. I let my frustration get away from me a little bit.

      merlyn, my intention was not to make you stop participating in the community. I don't think that was jc's intention, either. My intention was to show that in the interests of this community, it is best if we present the kindest, gentlest face possible to the new users of Perl. That doesn't mean that you, personally, must always be sweetness and light; if you don't have the time, we will understand. We can fill the gap. No one wants to force you to be nice. We simply ask that you not flame, nor criticize unless it is done in a positive manner.

      You seem to approve of in-your-face bluntness in communication, so I've given it to you, here.

      What we want, merlyn, is a little more helpfulness and a little less ego. We all know you are the perl god. You do not need to go around giving font +4's, and terse, ridiculing responses to get us to respect you.

      Here are some examples of terseness, name-calling and rudeness:

      You have our respect, merlyn. What we want is your participation in the community. Posts like "Running with Scissors" serve to distance you from us mere mortals. Why you feel the need to belittle people and bludgeon us with your prestige, I simply do not understand.

      You are a respected, admired member of the perl elite. You don't need to knock anyone down to secure your lofty place. You already have it.

      Now, on a more positive note: you are capable of some truly enjoyable posts.

      Fundamentally, we want you to stop trying to build respect you already have, at the expense of other users. "Running with scissors" is frighteningly arrogant. Your proposed policy of making useless, pejorative posts just to "give (you) piece of mind," without the common decency to consider "details" and "nicey-nice"ness shocked me.

      You said:

      Please accept this as the "email or something" response. When you criticize someone's code, do you want them to stomp away and pout? Then don't stop "posting any more public messages." Someone voted you down; take it in the spirit intended (just as you would have someone accept any of your critique) and become an even better person because of it.

      Brainbench 'Most Valuable Professional' for Perl

      P.S. See

      for similar comments.
      Several valid points/counterpoints made already, so I won't repeat any of them.

      My only observation - merlyn isn't the only fellow Monk who can be outspoken and rough at times.   Is he being held to a higher standard than the rest of us?

      I've never submitted code advanced enough to even warrant his attention, and likely never will. Perhaps I'd feel different if I were the recipient of a "+7 handslap".
          tragedy #3,

      p.s. these two nodes from about a month ago seem particularly relevant.

        That's a point well taken about holding monks to a higher standard. I don't know if those of us with higher ranks should be treated any differently from the newest monk to register. (We ought to understand the way the monastery works better than recent supplicants, but that's not what I mean.)

        I think merlyn is really trying to figure out what to do here. It's not comp.lang.perl.misc, with a huge FAQ, a supporting cast of thousands, and years and years of history. It's not #perl on Efnet, with its own unique blend of rules and conventions. It's not perl5porters, for better or worse.

        It's unique, because it's more egalitarian... it hasn't been around long enough to develop many customs and traditions. The traditions we do have, about trying to help people where they're at, about respecting other people, and about giving the best solution we know how -- even if we're corrected by a dozen other monks in the next thirty seconds -- these traditions we need to encourage. We need to apply them equally to everyone.

        I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that merlyn is really trying to fit in -- why else start a top level discussion node? By all means, suggest ways he can fit in. Give him feedback, example posts comparing posts you consider helpful to posts you consider harmful (if that's not too strong a word).

        Just don't push away a fellow monk with a wealth of knowledge and experience who's trying to fit in and understand the mostly unwritten and still evolving rules here. We all get the chance to make mistakes because we can learn from them. Please don't deny the opportunity for personal growth.

      In case you haven't seen Saints in our book, I requested from vroom and was granted the reduction of my uber-XP to mortal status. (It was odd to see You've lost 1000000 points! when I logged in. :-)

      I've also had some other thoughts during my 24 hour hiatus. But I'll save that for another post when I've got things a bit more formulated.

      I upvoted every reply to me, and took each element of each post to heart. There's a synthesis of the results that is very appropriate, and I'll share that soon.

      -- Randal L. Schwartz, Perl hacker

        You've lost 1000000 points!

        That's one of those things that will probably never again happen on Perl Monks.

        Zenon Zabinski | zdog |

RE: jogging with shears
RE: running with scissors
    It sounds very reasonable to me.


RE: running with scissors

    Sorry to anyone that doesn't understand my disappointment


    Sorry again for offending anyone. Just had to vent.

RE:Running with scissors




(kudra: comments to all) RE: running with scissors
    First, some comments in response to replies and earlier comments:




    Now, some comments in response to the root node:



    Please stop complaining about Merylns posts!


(Corion) Cultural differences







    My opinions may have changed,
    but not the fact that I am right

An additional observation.
    Hi merlyn!

    Well I'd only like to add two small things.




RE: merlyn's time





    My ego can recover faster than a compromised system


      merlyn is not the only perl programmer out there.


      - email Ozymandias

        >> merlyn is not the only perl programmer out there

        very true.






        how is "running with scissors" discourteous?


RE: "running with scissors"

    surprised to see this type of thread here, but that's OK

    i too have been lucky enough to recieve some of your help
    as well

    i don't care about getting voted down if it means i get
    to solve my problem. (experience is nice and all but
    it's the programming what puts food on my table)

    perhaps we'd be better off if you reduced it to
    'running with scissors: lookup the scalar .. operator'

    you could even shamlessly plug your books in every post you make


    even being an intelligent pointer can take up a lot of time
    but i find them to be some of the most helpful posts

    There are certainly multiple sides to this whole issue.




    All that being said...


    Basically, I guess I am just saying:


    2) Answer posts as you would like to be answered.



    Roy Alan

RE: "running with scissors"





    "I've been teaching them to read for thirty years.
    You'd think they would get it by now."



RE: running with scissors




        Nobody expects the The Spanish Inquisition
RE: running with scissors






    Just the cliche .02

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