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The Zone - Sarah Davies

CEO of Melbourne Community Foundation Sarah Davies talks with The Zone's Michael Short about how to really reduce homelessness.

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MICHAEL SHORT: Sarah, welcome to The Zone and thank you for your time. There's a bit of fear and loathing around at the moment in federal politics because the opposition leader has refused to endorse a target on homelessness, and this probably or possibly reflects the intractable nature – or the perceived intractable nature – of homelessness.

But it's something you can do something about, according to your big idea, which is called Homes for Homes. Can you take us through it?

Homelessness is a really complex and difficult problem and causes major economic and social implications but it's not intractable. 

SARAH DAVIES: OK, I can and look, I'm glad you said perceived intractable nature because yes, homelessness is a really complex and difficult problem and causes major economic and social implications but it's not intractable, absolutely not intractable, and there are multiple things that can be done and one of them is an idea that a few of us are working on because we believe it will work and because we believe it will significantly reduce homelessness in Australia and also in time actually continually then work to prevent homelessness and that's the goal. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, I'm not saying it's the solution to everything but there are multiple things we can do the reduce homelessness.

MS: Let's take it from the top: what happens under the Homes for Homes idea – what would happen?

SD: Ok, at the moment Homes for Homes is an idea – it's a proposition. It's built on the premise that people who have their own homes, so those of us who have our own properties, we rent or we own our own homes, can contribute a small amount of that equity - when it's released – to those that don't.

It's a bit like the Robin Hood principle – those that have can support those who don't have, in order to change that over time. So the proposition is that if you have your own house, when you sell it you contribute a very small percentage of the sale price – 0.1 per cent of the sale price would go towards a fund that is then used to support those who are homeless and actually then work to prevent homelessness into the future.

MS: Now, you've done some numbers?

SD: We have. We've been working on the idea for a couple of years and last year we got to the point where we were pretty confident that the model would work and so we commissioned a full economic study and feasibility study of the idea in the Australian context, particularly in the Victorian context. And that study – and the modelling – has demonstrated that this idea has significant potential to really attack homelessness in this state.

The numbers I've seen are up to $245 million alone in this state over 30 years – could be a hell of a lot more depending on how the market goes; it's quite extraordinary what's going on at the moment.

SD: Yes, well the modelling that we've done – we've been very conservative and we've assumed a low participation rate, particularly in the first few years because there is a bit of a cultural shift in people's behaviour around this. You know, there'll be an education around this and we're not anticipating a huge take-up very quickly, so we've been fairly conservative in looking at the numbers.

We've based that on market research and polling that we've done with home-sellers and home-buyers so we're pretty confident that the numbers that we're predicting - as you said, almost $140 million over 30 years, maybe up to $245 million, depending on if we're been a bit conservative on the take up, quite significant. Even in the first five years with a really low, slow take-up, we're still anticipating being able to contribute $150 thousand, at least, in Victoria, to deal with homelessness.

MS: Who's paying so far? You've got the Government involved to help seed the research, but would you expect the government to be involved in this or is it a private thing?

SD: I think it is really important for the initiative, when it's up and running, to be independent of government, because government has a job to do and government has a stream of income to do it with and government has policy it needs to set and then deliver.

That isn't going to solve everything that we need to tackle, and I very much believe that everybody else in the community has a responsibility to create the kind of future we want to live in. And so the idea around this is that it's independent of government and therefore the way the money can be spent to deal with homelessness is independent of government and independent of government policy, and there might be times when it's supportive of government policy and there might be times in the future, particularly if you know – well, let's say the opposition does get in and the Opposition Leader's position on homelessness doesn't change, well the chances are that the way this initiative might work might be completely different to government policy.

However, saying that, we do need and we are grateful for Victorian government support in actually helping us test the idea and get it off the ground. So when we got to the point where we thought, look anecdotally, this is looking very exciting, the response from people we've spoken to is exciting, but that's not enough, we need an economic model, we need a feasibility study, the Housing Minister actually contributed $30,000, which was half the cost of the modelling and economic study, and we got a private company to contribute the other half.

So they have helped us fund the feasibility study and the point we're at now, based on the results of that is we are looking for some seed funding for the first three years to actually get the initiative resourced and fuelled up and ready to go.

MS: And where do want that from?

SD: We want half from the government and half from philanthropy or the private sector or a social investor.

MS: Are you going to get it?

SD: We're pretty hopeful. Early discussions with government (they) have said they'd be open to matching investment, so, no, they are not interested in funding the whole thing, but if there was a social investor or philanthropist or a number of organisations, say, that came together they would look very favourably on a 50/50 contribution and we have started discussions with a couple of social investors and philanthropic trusts who have said let's keep talking and explore it. So we haven't had a yes, but we're pretty positive we'll get there.

MS: Now, getting there involves the Melbourne Community Foundation of which of course you are the chief executive, and before we just move on to some of the stuff that MCF is doing, that is actually sort of happening, one of barriers to Homes for Homes is not that it's a kind of pie in the sky idea – as I understand it, there's something already happening in the states that is...

SD: That right, yeah. We've just nicked somebody else's and tailored it to us, so we're not in any way claiming some kind of intellectual superiority because we've come up with a great idea.

There's a program that's been operating in California in the US since about 2001. It was an initiative of a private developer called Lennar – they're a land and home developer and they created the Lennar Charitable Fund Housing Trust, and the proposition is very similar. As a developer, what they have done is they've put covenants on all of the properties and the land that they develop and there are now something like 35,000 properties participating in this initiative, and each time that property turns over, a small percentage of the sale price goes into the fund that is then used to invest back into the community and deal with homelessness.

So since they've been operating, as I said, they've got 35,000 properties and they've now got six other development companies involved, and I think they've distributed over $US 5 million to deal with homelessness. So, we know that it can work.

MS: What would you do with the money? Is it to build homes, or is it to deal with the causes and effects of homelessness?

SD: OK, at a simple mathematical level, the money that gets generated in a particular year, 80 per cent will be distributed to deal with homelessness, and I'll talk a bit about that in a minute, but 20 per cent will be retained to actually then build a capital endowment fund that grows over time and that generates annual income that can then be distributed.

So, homelessness will need a long-term solution. It's been hundreds of years in the making and it ain't going to be fixed in a couple of years and really the multiple causes of homelessness will still be there in our community and so the need for ongoing preventative measures I think will be there forever, what would be great would be if we could get to a point in our community where there were a minimal number of homelessness people.

But we will still need ongoing intervention and preventative measures to support families and people. So, it's never going to be fixed completely. And so in terms of what we want to spend the money on, really at any point in time there might be four types of programs. One is it might be that we just have to use some money to build housing stock. Because we do have a severe shortage of affordable housing and social housing, there is significant pressure and we just don't have enough.

We also know that we have in Australia every night over 100,000 homeless people. So there are immediate needs and services that need to be delivered that aren't being delivered. And something like two thirds of people who turn up to access emergency overnight accommodation and turned away because there isn't any. That's just disgusting, I mean that's appalling.

So I absolutely feel that in the first phase of this, that money will be used to provide services to those who are already homeless, whether that's support services, whether that's temporary accommodation or whether it's permanent low-cost accommodation. But the other key areas that it does need to work is prevention – I think prevention is absolutely essential, and also at some point, you know, maybe it's actually around advocacy, and it's actually around research and development of ongoing solutions that are going to be needed.

We don't know what the needs are going to be in the future but we need to keep tracking them and we need to keep inventing and designing new solutions. So, I anticipate the money being used in fours ways; One – to support services for those who are already homeless; one to provide physical infrastructure and capital and housing stock; one definitely to work on prevention; and one really to help us stay on top of identifying and designing the solutions that we need. Sounds really easy when you say that – I'm not suggesting it is easy, but that's what we have to do.

MS: Some of the stuff that you do with the Melbourne Community Foundation, well, all of the stuff in fact, because the philosophy of the MCF is evidence-based and research-based...

There's a thing going on at the moment called the MacroMelbourne project that shows that some things can actually be done and happen. Can you talk about one of two of those very quickly?

SD: I know that well-researched, evidence-based social investment can create positive social change, and I know because I've seen it and because I'm lucky enough to work in that area every day. One of my favourite projects at the moment – and this is not to say it better or worse than any other, it's just I love this project because it is so smart – is a project that community connections in Whittlesea is running, called Women in Work Community Enterprise.

So, community in Whittlesea, large multiethnic community, mix of long-established families living there and a number of new families coming to the area, lots of young families, not a lot of social infrastructure in place yet, and so multiple issues. This particular project has a number of objectives. This first objective is to support women from ethnically and culturally diverse backgrounds get work so that they can be economically independent and then they can support their families.

And so what they're doing is they're running a program that brings the women in and trains them to be childcare workers. So the funding supports their training, supports their mentorship and the facilitation in order that they can gain the skills that they can then be economically independent. So the women benefit.

Then what they do with the women who graduate as qualified childcare workers, they're creating a social enterprise, a community enterprise that those childcare workers can then either go and work for private organisations or for community childcare centres or even on a consultancy, as need basis for particular project or activities that are going on in the community. So, what you've then got is you've got all these young families in the area actually having access to childcare now that they haven't got that they desperately need, and not just having access to childcare but actually having access to a range ethnically and culturally appropriate childcare.

And then the third thing that you've is you've actually got a business, an economic business that continues to invest economically in the local community. And I just think that model is stunning. It's just so smart. And there are lots of projects like that – I'm not saying you know this is the best in class but there are some really smart, really innovative solutions out there.

MS: We'll put on the website associated with The Zone a place where people can go and have a look at that because I know there are 15 and I've been through them and they're actually really cool to have a look at people may want to get involved. Why do you do what you do?

SD: Ah, two reasons: one, I love it, and two, I believe it's important – and I don't want to sound, you know, moralistic – but I believe that everybody can actually make a positive change and I think it's really important, I love it and I actually want my children to grow up in the kind of community that I think is healthy and supportive for them and everybody else. And I think we all have an obligation to do that. And it's not hard to do that.

MS: Where did that come from, though? Can you identify formative moments in your life or turning points in your life where you sort of, you know, you do it retrospectively, probably, although you can recognise them at the time, I suppose, in some circumstances but can you look back and see where that came from?

SD: Look, I can now. I've been a bit slow on the uptake as to working out, you know, the cause and effect of all this, but yeah absolutely. I think that who you're born to and where you're born has a huge influence on your opportunities in your life and I was born white, middle-class educated, socially-aware English professional parents, but happened to be born in a convent in what was then east Pakistan and is now Bangladesh and it was very smart convent because their core business was to support the local leper community, but they had a fee-for-service activity on the side – they had a maternity business, if you like, for ex-pats.

So I was born in this convent and it has always struck me that had I been born to the woman in the next bed I would have had such a different life and that has never sat easily with me, ever. And everything I've done, when you look at people and where they are and what they're experiencing and what they do and you put yourself in their shoes and you think well if I'd have had those same experiences, would I be any different, and that, to me, I just recoil against that, I think that's fundamentally wrong.

So, I guess, and I get a bit passionate about that, so I'll calm down a bit, but – so  that, I think, without being able to articulate it, has always been a driver for me. Plus parental influence: my mother was a childcare worker, a protected custody worker for many years and before the rules tightened up we had countless kids coming in and out of our house. She was involved in transitioning then from where they were to where they needed to be.

One of those relationships developed into us becoming the foster family for a young girl who didn't live with us full-time but lived with us sort of part-time over a number of years and so I've just grown up, I suppose, in that sense of, you build the kind of world you want to live in, and experiences like when we were living overseas we were going to go to the Sudan – my Dad, he was a cotton salesman and had been posted to the Sudan – my mother, my sister and I were sent back to the UK on holiday and there were more troubles in the Sudan and my father got stuck there and so we had moved all our stuff. I still remember my dog and my cat went with him and he got stuck there and we were stuck in the UK.

It was the first time – I was about seven or eight I think – that I had experienced winter. I hated it. It was awful. I just have memories of this six-month winter period being hideous and when my father eventually got out he just said right that's it, no more, we're not risking that anymore, we'll settle in the UK. And I'm not – this isn't a hardship story – I just remember what it felt like leaving my dog and my cat behind, but also what it felt like – I went to this school while we  were there and I just didn't get any of it. I didn't understand, and yet I'm English and I'm white, so I suppose it taught me that a lot of our social and community issues are complex, but actually you can deal with them and do something about it, and I so I do this because I want to, because I think it's important, and I really enjoy it, because I see the change that's there.

MS: We're running out of time. Off the top of your head, what do you like to do best?

SD: Heaps of things. I actually enjoy all of this stuff. I like problem solving, I like addressing issues, I like getting stuck in and doing things. In a personal sense I adore being with my family, my kids and my husband, my husband's a bit of a saint, he's fantastic, my kids are pretty special, although I don't want them hear that because they'll ark up, but just hanging around with them. I love reading, I love reading crime fiction, a bit of crap like that on a Sunday afternoon with a good cup of tea and your feet up. I like the movies. I like hanging out with friends. I like dancing – I'm not good at it, but you know, sad 80s kind of stuff, so normal things...

MS: The well-adjusted people are those who can dance without fear.

SD: That's us. It's embarrassing, but...

MS: How often do you manage to dance and do all these other things?

SD: Look actually pretty often. I think my husband and I are pretty good at working out what our priorities are and managing it. There are times when the balance tips too much in the work way overall – never seems to tip too much in the home way, but overall, I think we're pretty good, and I must say I have a fabulous friendship group; we enjoy the same things and so when we feel that we haven't kind of done the dancing or the night out of whatever for a while, then we'll say look let's organise and so we do. But it's conscious, you have to manage that. It doesn't just happen.

MS: Sarah, what's the hardest thing you've ever done.

SD: Look, there are lots of hard things, and they're all at different levels. On a personal level, I would say living in Australia while my father in the UK was dying of cancer. He was only 55, and experiencing that and going through that with him and my mother – I was very close to my Dad. My Dad was a very special man, and so personally that was probably one of the hardest things I've had to do.

But then on a more regular basis, I'm a bail justice in Victoria and so when the courts are closed and the police want to remand someone in custody, they have to go before some sort of court in order to decide whether that person gets remanded in  custody and so sometimes I'm sitting in a bail hearing and I'm sitting opposite someone that the police have arrested and the police have explained why they don't want to give bail and the person's explained why they should get it and I sit there and I go I have no idea what to do, I don't know.

But the pressure of deciding whether you're going to lock somebody up either overnight or over a weekend is pretty significant, so that's kind of hard, too.

MS: I hope bring in The Zone hasn't been that hard. Sarah thanks so much for your time.

SD: Not at all. Thank you for having me.