5:21 pm CET
Feb 28, 2012

Emerging Europe

Poland Admits Difficulties in Relationship With Russia

    • This is just Russia. This country was, is and will NOT change its ralationships with its neighbours (and not only to them). This country was, is and will be still aggressive against its neighbours (and not only to them). There was, is and will NOT be democracy in that country. Poland could many times solve this problem (in XV-th, XVI-th and XVII-th century). Polish case shows that only power in relationships with Russia can resolve many problems of today's world.

    • Poland needs to find a product that Russia needs just as badly.
      Red cabbage?

    • Last three centuries was very bad for Poland with exception 1918-1939. But Poland paid everything for bad things what Poland did. That bad time is over. ForEver. Now it's time to sow the red cabbage by someone else. In 1920 Soviet Russia was defeated by Poland. Poland stoped communism that time. Russia HAD TO pay Poland for defeated war. They understood it. They understand power. Once again only power against Russia can resolve many problems of today’s world. Reagan understood it very well.

    • You are saying Polish aggression started the bad relations with Russia. I agree. But what became of Poland after that? Russia has a very long history of ticking off would-be conquerors and enslavers, and they all leave with their hands chopped off. They were all victims of their own arrogance.

    • Throughout history, Poland has done nothing but defend itself from russian aggression. The russians just don't seem to be able to keep their hands off their neighbors. That's why their neighbors all hate them.

    • Poland defended itselt from Russian aggression? Yes. At the end of 18th century. In 1610 Polish troops reached Moscow. They were being there for almost 2 years. Polish King was't interested in Moscow. Moscow was burned. Russians can't forget it. Till today. Many time they recall about that ocupy. They can't forget many defeats. Particulary in 1920, when red army was defeated and stopped to expand communism in Europe. I want to say, Poles know very well Russians and they know how to deal with them. They know one more thing. Power, this is what Russians understand. They are just built. In such a way. But in fact Poles are not innocent. But who is? US, GB, France? The most important is character of nation and abilty to conclusion of history. Democracy is not in nature of Russian People. That's why they understand only POWER. A'propos Poles even Stalin said communism is not for Poles. It isn't in their nature.

    • Some people have forgotten the division of Poland by the Russian Tsar in partnership with the Prussian Kaiser and Austrian Emperor. That resulted in Poland disappearing from the map of Europe, with the lands east of the Vistula river having been re-named by the Russians as 'Vistulaland".
      Other people forget the infamous Hitler -Stalin Pact of August 1939 leading to the Nazi invasion on Sept. 1st and to the Red army invasion of Poland on Sept. 17, 1939. Still others forget that the Soviet Warshaw Pact High Command operated from Polish capital and that Polish Gen Jaruzelski received his orders directly from the Kremlin masters. There is a lot more that will never be forgotten.

    • But in 1610 Poland was the aggressor. Russia and Poland had common enemies until then. Poland raped and burned the Russian countryside, behaving worse than Mongols. They forced the women and children into Smolensk cathedral and blew it up. (It must be cursed for Poles to ever go there again.) In 1920 Poland was again the aggressor because it wanted an empire from the Baltic to the Black sea while Russia was in full-scale civil war.

      Poland's way of dealing with Russia: presenting itself as a hostile potential aggressor. This has not worked for it ever.

      As for democracy - why is that relevant here? People who claim democratic values are always changing the definition. Greece and Italy lack elected governments, while countries which claim longstanding democratic institutions lack the mechanisms to change them. Unelected international bodies (IMF, World Bank, NATO, EU) are dictating policy for small countries while changing the definition of democracy.

    • If Russia starts war it will be loud and clear and this is modern age so 96% of Russia and Russian people will be instinct.

    • When things like this happen in Russia, one always wonders don't they? Like, maybe it wasn't an accident?

    • Russians burned Moscow themselves in order to prevent poles from taking anything of value or occupying the land. This allowed Russians to take back Moscow because the polish troops had nothing to live off of or loot. Similar tactics were used against Napoleon and Hitler. Russia always had land as a buffer/defense against enemies. The military could always recede and attack later.

    • Russians like to write their own history like the katyn massacre was blamed on the Nazi's when it was orders by the murderous stalin and his cronies that sent thousands of polish intelligentsia and later other eastern slavs to their death.

    • I don't see the point of bringing history into this. If Poland wants to have a constructive relationship with Russia then it needs to ween itself off of Russian oil and gas. Otherwise Russia will continue to use Poland's dependency to maximum effect. Russia doesn't care about history. It's all about $$. Simple as that.

    • True story

      Poles were big allies of Napolean, supporting him in many of his campaigns. They begged him and begged him to retake Vilnius from Russia, before marching on Moscow itself. He finally listened to them, formed a grand army of aorund 500,000 men (including 100,000 Poles). They took Moscow. Looted the 3rd Rome of everything that wasn't nailed down. Finally, they saw the folly of their ways and had to retreat. 4 out of 5 never made it back.

      Napoleon is revered in Poland, but if Napoleon could do it over again I don't think he would listen to the Poles.

    • Don't blame the Poles, Putin has a way of alienating just about everyone, except the ruling elite in Iran and Syria, But, as they say, birds of a feather flock together. How can you warm up to a nation that came to dinner, and stayed uninvited for over 50 winters, and controlled the conversation during that entire dark period in Polish history? Very slowly indeed.

    • Johnny, I'm not Poland-centic, but history play very, very big role in relationships between Poland and Russia, unfortunatelly (and not only between these countries). When Poland was parted between Russia, Germany and Austria at the end of 18th century, Tsar Katrin the Great left her will. There were 10 points what Russia should do to be great. One of these points (6th or so) stated: Poland MUST be dependend on Russia. This was (is and will be) strategic point of Russian politics. Unfortunatelly, they (Poles and Russians) can not escape from history, because the problem was, is and will be BORDER between them. Russia see all time threat from Poland. They are concerned when Poland is independed. They do all they can to change this state. As I mentioned earlier Poles know Russians very well. They know how to deal with them. Poles have had problems with Russia for more then 600 years. Europe has had problem with Russia for about 100 years. Polish experience shows that Russians are flex when they feel power. Today's world more and more understand this bad true. Reagan understood it very well and that's why he defeated communism (in fact Russia). The world will have more and more problems with aggressive Russia. It concerns NOT only Poland.

    • AB, Reagan was a paranoiac like you. There is no BORDER between Poland and Russia (except small plot ). Every!!!!! Europen country had historical problems with the neighbours. But not every of them so rancorous as Poles and you. That is why there are difficulties in Relationship With Russia

    • You are an example of why Poland is a loser nation that cannot figure out what went wrong. If it was not propped up for so long for geopolitical reasons, Poland would have disappeared long ago with no one calling themselves Poles.

    • Poland a loser? I think not, there doing better than the other former communist bloc nations, jealous maybe? If the leadership in the U.S. followed the Polish example, we'd be better off today!
      Poland is the flower of Europe, unfortunately they have been geographically caught between competing super powers. I'd rather live in Poland then Russia or the other former com bloc's, that's for sure.

    • @ab - And yet this loser nation still manages to have a higher GDP per capita then Russia. Stings doesn't it?

    • Poland could import liquified gas from Qatar etc. Why don't they do it?

    • Any country that Russia touches or breathes on turns to SH&T.. Ukraine is having so many problems and can;t get it together with MAMA RUSSIA still sticking its nose... Poland is free again and prospering like never before. The only EU country with annual GDP growth..Take a trip you will be pleasantly surprised..Great investment!!!!

    • A loser nation? But locked in a race of one legged men, she will surely prevail. If only I could afford a Polish plumber!

    • GDP per capita? why, people, you don't emigrate to Quatar? Its GDP per capita is twice higher than in the US.
      Lets look indicators from CIA factbook, not your guess-work:

      1) GDP per capita PPP: $20,100 in Poland (P) against $16,700 in Russia (R).... Well, look next

      2) Public debt: 56,7% GDP (P) (+12% in last year) against 8,7% GDP (R) (-4% in last year)

      3) Unemployment rate: 12% (P) against 6,8% (R)

      4) GDP grows rate: 3,8% (P) against 4,3% (R)

      5) birth rate: 9.96 (P) against 10,94 (R)

      and indicator #6 (specially for Gregory Bontrager who want to emigrate to Poland)
      6) net migration rate: -0.47 migrants/1,000 population (P) against +0,29 (R)

      Stings, Johnny, doesn’t it? Poland is a loser because it doesn't feel shy to pose itself so

      Joseph, Ukraine have problems becouse MAMA RUSSIA doesn't stick its nose there last 20 years. Stick your nose, what's problem?

    • LOL @GarRu

      Yeah, ask your average Ukrainian how their grandparents starved during Soviet great famines. How idotic Soviet central planning ruined its economy for years. How the Red Army in 1920 raped and pillaged its way across until Poland destroyed it and with if Lenin's dream of European communism. How the Red Army raped and pillaged its way across Ukraine again in 1945.

      Russia has never offered anything to Ukraine except hordes of hungry, desperate soldiers. Long live Free and Independent Ukraine.

    • The key issue in present Polish - Russian relations is Poland's shale gas development. Moscow knows well that it will lose enormous influence over European energy markets. Furthermore, Poland remains influential in Belarus and Western Ukraine, places that Russia seeks to reincorporate at all costs. Coupled with recent events, history (evidently Russians will never get over the fact that Poland occupied Moscow),Poland's influence with American policy makers and strong economy and you have a recipe for co tinued resentment.

      As evidenced by some of the posts here many Russians live in the past. They should follow Poland's example and focus on internal development. Russia's economic indicators are pitifully low for a nation of its size and natural resources it controls. If they dont, China will be more than happy to step in and do it for them.

    • Gary. I,am paranoid. I just tried to make eg. you aware that all the world have problems with Russia. Not only Poland. But first of all Poland has one of the biggest problem with relationships with Russia. Similarly problems had (have) Lithuania, Estonia, Lativia, Ukraine, Romenia, Finland and many other countries like Georgia and even Bulgaria. This is a result of Russian history. Big part of Russian history states Polish history. If you want to mention paranoid people, so one of the most paranoid man (was he really a man?) was Stalin. He hated Poland very, very much. This was a result of the 1920 war when Poland staopped Soviet Russia in its communis export to the whole Europe. Lenin wanted to reach Portugal at the first phase. The next one was the rest of the world. Stalin was surrounded by Polish Army in 1920. He could not forget it. This war (and not only this war) shows that Russian leaders are incalculable. They can stop their paranoid politics ONLY when they feel power. This is experience of many, many countries. Eg. Bielarus provekes Poland all time. Lukashenka feels big support from Russia. Why? Poland and Bielarus created first union in Europe. It had been lasted for 5 centuries. Russia knows very well, that it has do all the best to stop reunification Poland, Ukrainen and Bielarus. For them it would be "danger of death" for Russia. These politics had been leaded by Russain Tsars and communist leaders. This politics was carried out among others by "tearing off" Bielarus (and not only Bielarus) from Polish influence. So they forced Bielarus people to even "think" as Russian people. Is it not a paranoid politics? And what can you say about such poiliticians. Aren't (were'nt) they paranoids?

      Anyway. If Reagan was paranoid Soviet Russia (USSR) would not have "collapsed".

    • Regarding statistics. Give all Russians passports and let them to go into every country, so the last one will have to turn off the light inthe country. No one stay there

    • Haha. If Russians had visa free entries to EU nations Russian hookers
      would litter every street corner in London, Paris and Berlin. Oh wait. They already do!

      In all seriousness. More Russians have left Russia for good last year than at anytime since Bolshevik
      revolution. That alone says it all.

      Russians don't have visa free entries to other nations, unlike Poles and other Europeans.

    • Hey, LOLita, Who did not starve in the history? All starved. Civilised Europeans starved natives in the colonies all over the world. Even Americans starved during the Great Depression. What does it prove? Nothing.
      Russian-Ukrainian relations are much wider than your limited knowledge about Holodomor. Russian starved too as well as Ukrainians. Before destroying the economy Soviets (not the Russians!!!) has recreated economy from ashes and ruins of civil and two world wars. Idiotic capitalist planning system has destroyed the American economy in 1930s and destroys world economy right now!!! Not the Soviet planning.
      Ukrainians also were fighters of Red Army "raped and pillaged its way across until Poland". Poland "raped and pillaged" Ukraine in 1920 dreaming of the empire from Baltic to Black sea before the Red Army has expelled it from Kiev. Poland did it till 1654 when Ukraine has started to search for protection in Russia. Russia has presented to Ukraine the Western Ukraine, East and Southern Ukraine, Crimea. Has restored Ukraine after war. Half of Russians have the Ukrainian surnames, and half of Ukrainians have Russian ones. So, dont rape my braine, go to hell. Your grandma has been raped? Are you the son (or the grandson) of the Russian soldier? Don't mourn? Blood refresh is useful for your organism.

    • "...As evidenced by some of the posts here many Russians live in the past..."
      Where do you live? In the future????? You are mistaken. Russians don't remember neither about "Poland occupied Moscow" nor about what kind of gas does it prefer. Where is Poland??? Who is it??? More over, Russia doesn't care about Polish influence in the W.Ukraine. It's Poland who likes rake over old ashes (Katyn, Kaczynski, Soviet period, Moscow in 1612), because ocupaton of Moscow was your ONLY achievement in the history. But for Russia Poland was just one of the achievements and not most memorable. So it's Poland who schould forget old insults and focus on the internal development. Poland's economic indicators are pitifully low for a nation of its size. If they dont, China will be more than happy to step in and do it for them too.

    • You too persistently exaggerate here value of Poland in Russian history that seems quite paranoid. All world have no problems with Russia!!! At least not in a greater degree than problems of the world and the USA, the world and China eg. Poland and Baltic are not all world. Even the most part of Europe has no problems with Russia. Moreover, the Polish problems with Russia are just Polish problems, not Russian ones. Finland has no problems with Russia to. The monument to the Russian emperor decorating a main square of Helsinki is good evidence of it (study why). As well as an orthodox Uspensky Cathedral in Helsinki which Poland blew up at once as became free. Monuments to Russian soldiers liberateв Bulgaria from a Turk are across all Bulgaria. About what problems do you speak ????? Especialy with Romania.
      If idiots and paranoiacs have problems with my country I am proud of this country and its history.
      Stalin was not Russian, as well as Dzerzhinsky and Mienżynski (do you know who are they) were not. So, go to mental asylum (or to a library) with your paranoia. Why Stalin has insisted on joining of East Germany to Poland in 1945 if Stalin so hated Poland??? You perfectly know results of 1920 war, but do you know its reasons? Where that war has begun? Where the Red Army drove Poles from? From Ukraine, from Kiev. What Poles did there????? Created the empire as you have told Poland+Ukraine+Belarus. But was they agree? I doubt. The Red Army expelled the Polish aggressors. About what Portugal do you speak?? Wake up!!! Trotsky (not Russian again) was crazy about world revolution (and he has been expelled from the SU because of this in 1926). Stalin was against. And he has not been surrounded by the Polish Army in 1920. Tukhachevsky was (by the way this surname is not Russian again). Poland and Belarus did not create any unions. Never. Poland and the Lithuanians who have occupied Belarus did. Poland oppressed orthodox Belorussians and Ukrainians, considered them as lowest grade of people. Therefore Poland has what it has, and let this vindictive country, which Cherchil named a "hyena of Europe", thanks Russia for its placability.

    • ".... Give all Russians passports and let them to go into every country, so the last one will have to turn off the light inthe country. No one stay there.."

      Give them. And give the US passports to all Poles. What's problems? If you can't then look statistics.

    • "More Russians have left Russia for good last year than at anytime since Bolshevik revolution. That alone says it all." ... Statistics, please. Not the raving.

      "Russians don’t have visa free entries to other nations, unlike Poles and other Europeans."

      So Polish hookers monopolate in EU. Nice. Polish contribution to EU civilisation.

    • "If Reagan was paranoid Soviet Russia (USSR) would not have “collapsed”."
      Soviet Union was collapsed irrespective of Reagan's paranoidisity. There were a lot of more essential reasons.

    • http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704816604576333030245934982.html

      More and more young, educated Russians are talking about leaving Russia, to live in the U.S., Europe, Israel, Asia, or Latin America. The reasons are myriad: Whether it is the difficulty of setting up a business in Russia, the dearth of political freedoms, poor education or simply better jobs abroad, Russia's talent exodus is gaining momentum.

    • RE: "Russians don’t remember" by Garu Ru

      One of my visits to Russia happened to be during what was explained to me as one of Russia's most important national holidays, during which Russians celebrate the year 1612 when Polish troops left Moscow. It appeared everyone remembered it quite well.

      This was just a personal note. I'm not sure why one of the posters here keeps going on and on. Poland and Russia have simply sparred over control of eastern Europe for centuries.

    • While Russians just "are talking" Poles are leaving Poland in droves. Same articles you can find about any country. People are seeking money. Even Americans are leaving some towns (like Detroit for example) and going to another ones.

    • That Russia’s national holidays is named as Unity Day, Day of People’s Unity or National Unity Day. Not just Victory Day. The day's name alludes to the idea that all classes and nations of Russian society united to preserve Russian statehood when there was neither a Tsar nor a Patriarch to guide them. It commemorates the end of the Time of Troubles first af all.
      "..one of the posters here keeps going on and on.." because one of russia's boring neighbours feel itself the most offended in the world. And constantly reminds of this to anothers.

    • As much as we really like the "Ocean's" dream team that contains Brad Pitt, George Clooney, and needless to say Don Cheadle, the 47-year-old actor himself says the franchise has likely reached its end.

      "I think that was put to bed," Cheadle tells us with the possibility of one more "Ocean's" movie. "And I assume if we do bring it back, you know, we ought to do it in reverse. We should do 'Ocean's 9' next, after which eight, [and then] seven, and just knock off a character as we go down till there`s just two left. It ought to be a battle for the death." We'd pay to see that, but we're not holding our breath for a release date. And, sadly for Effortless Rawlins fans, Cheadle's not going to portray Mouse on the little screen. (Final fall, there was a report that NBC was working on adapting the Walter Mosley character Simple Rawlins for tv).

      "Yeah, that was a thing that came up potentially to do, but it's considering that kind of gone away," Cheadle says. "But I really like that character. I don't realize that I would need to revisit him, Iove sort of been there, done that, but I actually dug undertaking that. I had an excellent expertise with him." But you'll be able to catch Cheadle on Showtime's "House of Lies," in which he plays the morally bankrupt consultant Marty Kaan.

      "He's an incredibly difficult cat, which is exciting to play. He's do what he has to complete to acquire the job done. He's not above lying, cheating, stealing, throwing a friend below the bus...whatever it takes," Cheadle says. "I think that the show very deftly goes to places that happen to be hilarious, and funny, and sometimes borderline slapstick. And they can get quite critical simultaneously, and cover that spectrum pretty deftly in 30 minutes. That's quite incredible truly." "House of Lies," which has been picked up for a second season, airs Sundays on Showtime at ten p.m. ET.

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