{"action":"created","issue":{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/14001","repository_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/OpenRA/OpenRA","labels_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/14001/labels{/name}","comments_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/14001/comments","events_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/14001/events","html_url":"https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/14001","id":256337356,"number":14001,"title":"[RA] Isolate new auto targeting vs structures towards Return Fire/Hold Fire","user":{"login":"SoScared","id":2715583,"avatar_url":"https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/2715583?v=4","gravatar_id":"","url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared","html_url":"https://github.com/SoScared","followers_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/followers","following_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/following{/other_user}","gists_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/gists{/gist_id}","starred_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/starred{/owner}{/repo}","subscriptions_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/subscriptions","organizations_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/orgs","repos_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/repos","events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/events{/privacy}","received_events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/received_events","type":"User","site_admin":false},"labels":[],"state":"open","locked":false,"assignee":null,"assignees":[],"milestone":null,"comments":38,"created_at":"2017-09-08T18:36:36Z","updated_at":"2017-09-10T14:49:57Z","closed_at":null,"author_association":"MEMBER","body":"I wanted to wait on this issue ticket until a later time with this playtest cycle as I hoped more players would have the experience with the unit stances, particularly the broader community affiliated with big team games, which represents the bedrock of the online and multiplayer community. Unfortunately as with every previous playtest cycle in the past this particular sector won't have much exposure of the mod's changes, if any at all, until the offial release has been shipped. In contrast with most previous releases however, the RA mod has with it planned features that for the most part carry no real foresight as to how it will be experienced by the broader community, leaving most the discussion left to guesswork.\r\n\r\nThe last time we had a halfway similar event was with release 2013.12.23 with the introduction of the 16c0  Con.Yard build radius. For most people this change came aboard with minimal preparation but still it was anticipated as there was a strong demand to curb infinite basewalking for a long period of time. https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/2156\r\n\r\nThe problem and potential pitfall that _I_ see with the auto targeting is pretty simple and has nothing to do with balancing, unit control or anything like that. As I see it, the totality of the negative side of the feature's effect experienced by the players within the RA mod will _by far_ come from the silent majority – the casual online playerbase, for the most part frequently tied up with massive team games and players off-line content with playing against the A.I. The changing back and forth, on and off the \"building-attack-stance\" (these players have absolutely no interest in 'Defensive' vs 'Attack Anything' behavior) is how it's gonna translate in the mind of these particular lot of players. A prerequisite game mechanic to be executed in order to finish off an enemy and close out the game. This issue get's wildly proportional with the increasing number of enemies and for the online team games you have by default scenarios with great amount of units swarming through huge fields of buildings waiting to be turned on by the player only to have it be done again with the next wave of units and/or with the next move should the player decide to switch back to the default stance. The constant going back to the command bar or using hotkeys to execute these commands is a simple matter to the prominent named community members but for the pool of players actually keeping OpenRA alive it's gonna be a whole different ballgame.\r\n\r\nBesides the implementation from a simple technical standpoint you also have the visual side of it where you'll see a big group of units suddenly \"turns on\" and starts shooting at every building around them in a quasi-synchronized way per unit-type.\r\n\r\nHaving players adapt to new features with new ways to control units is something I believe I understand to a certain degree and I do absolutely understand the sentiment of requiring players to learn new sets of tools to further a positive agenda but in this particular case I believe very strongly the response will be that of disappointment once the reality of the feature kicks in with the above described scenarios, which according to my guesstimate represents over 90% of how the RA mod is experienced by the totality of RA's playerbase. It's simply just not user friendly and for many of these players, who don't give a second thought about ref placements, build-orders, micro or executing advanced strategy, just won't understand the added inconvenience seemingly coming out of nowhere for reasons they won't understand. Not because they're disinterested in the game's development but simply because it directly put's a wedge in-between the players and them having plain _simple_ fun – and I emphasize 'simple' because as of now there's an excellent 'flat scale' ranging from experiencing the game from the most basic level to the smaller core of expert players taking advantage of game mechanics unavailable to new players, simply because of level of skill. In my view the foundational 'simple' is the first step and sole reason for why most people are coming on to OpenRA and in many cases play the mods endlessly to eventually becoming a part of an active community.\r\n\r\nThe feature cuts deep into the identity of the OpenRA project itself, constantly struggling to join two polar opposites which conserves the spirit of the archaic C&C Red Alert versus improvements brought on board from its successors. Every deviation has its existence ideally rooted in necessity of making the game fun and playable with emphasis on skirmish and by extension, the online multiplayer mode. If we wanted to experience the original as-is, particularly the campaigns, we only have to look towards the abandon-ware. The 'avoid-targeting-buildings' stance emulates the experience drawn from the original game where you could overcome the enemy with your forces, camp its base and take over all the buildings with your engineer. In fact, growing up with this game, I did this religiously with every mission just for the role-play of utterly dominating and humiliating the enemy and if possible, beat them with their own units. It was certainly a fond part of the original game but as-is this game mechanic doesn't translate well over to the RA mod's skirmish. The mod now having availed almost every game asset to the player, popularized online multiplayer and \"inflated\" the game to enormous levels when it comes to the count of units and structures in any given game, particularly big team games, fully eclipses the role of the original targeting to the point where it lines up with other archaic features that made sense at the time but currently just serve to limit the experience.\r\n\r\nThe above point simply never came across properly in the feature's playtest discussion, one root reason being that the game almost exclusively is being analysed publicly from a competitive viewpoint. Usually there's an approach from both sides that eventually falls on a solution that everyone can relate to. Granted, regarding balancing I've been a sort of rogue mediator the past two  release cycles but for other feature related changes, AFAIK there are very few implementations that fell short with the playing community. In this particular case the discussion was also polarized right off the bat and a clear-headed discussion about what that change would mean for the game as a whole was simply not possible. \r\n\r\nThe juicy reward following this feature makes itself evident in the mods' campaigns. I had a run through with the RA playtest campaign missions and it's definately an added 'blast from the past' experience with camping the AI in order to gain yourself a new base with the enemy tech but it also underscores why the feature can be expected to work differently for the missions vs skirmish as the mission A.I. bases are usually both limited and static. For the missions there's a very strong argument for bringing this feature onboard but the question also then falls on wether or not to formalize the feature across all play modes as the gamerules deviation between the missions and skirmish are currently very few and with every addition to that list would be a noticeable step in widening the gap between the two game modes.\r\n\r\nThe idea proposed as mentioned in the title would have the 'no-targeting-buildings' left for the ReturnFire/HoldFire stances, meaning it's a feature the player turns _on_ in order to wipe out everything except unarmed buildings. Specifically, A-moving with AttackAnything/Defensive would target everything in its path as default but with ReturnFire/HoldFire would target only units and defensive structures, making way of a potential take-over with engineers or just for plain old fun, if wanted. The point is this feature from that point is an addition, enriching the experience in a way that would immediately be beneficial for both missions _and_ casual/competitive play. It also falls neatly within the stance categories with a two-for-two and for any concerns regarding unwanted side-effects with AttackAnything vs Defense stance, would be gone.\r\n\r\nOne important thing pointed out about this feature is that it's been in the works for a very long time, with an early attempt to include the feature in 2013 (#3337) but because of issues with the A.I. it was shelved until the surrounding issues was resolved. Couple the hard work of making the feature possible with the stated development goals for OpenRA it should follow that this feature makes its way into OpenRA's flagship mod. However it's my conviction the feature would be celebrated as a feature added on top of the current workings of the game, providing a link back to the original game for the missions and an exiting tool for players to explore with both skirmish and online multiplayer."},"comment":{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/comments/328347534","html_url":"https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/14001#issuecomment-328347534","issue_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/14001","id":328347534,"user":{"login":"SoScared","id":2715583,"avatar_url":"https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/2715583?v=4","gravatar_id":"","url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared","html_url":"https://github.com/SoScared","followers_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/followers","following_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/following{/other_user}","gists_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/gists{/gist_id}","starred_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/starred{/owner}{/repo}","subscriptions_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/subscriptions","organizations_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/orgs","repos_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/repos","events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/events{/privacy}","received_events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/SoScared/received_events","type":"User","site_admin":false},"created_at":"2017-09-10T14:49:57Z","updated_at":"2017-09-10T14:49:57Z","author_association":"MEMBER","body":"Well there you have goalpost moving live in action."}}
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