# Comment on entropy bounds and the generalized second law

## I Introduction

A cornerstone of black hole thermodynamics is the generalized second law (GSL), which asserts that in any process, the generalized entropy

$$S^{}=S+S_{\mathrm{bh}}$$
(1)   
never decreases, where $`S`$ denotes the entropy of matter outside of black holes and $`S_{\mathrm{bh}}=𝒜/4`$, where $`𝒜`$ denotes the total surface area of the black hole horizons. (Here and throughout this paper we use units where $`G=c=\mathrm{}=k=1`$.) The validity of the GSL is essential for the consistency of black hole thermodynamics and for the interpretation of $`𝒜/4`$ as representing the physical entropy of a black hole.

It was already recognized at the time the GSL was first postulated that a potential difficulty arises when one lowers a box initially containing energy $`E`$ and entropy $`S`$ toward a black hole . Classically, a violation of the GSL can be achieved if one lowers the box sufficiently close to the horizon. A resolution of this difficulty was proposed by Bekenstein by postulating that the entropy to energy ratio of any matter put into a box must be subject to the universal bound 

$$S/E2\pi R$$
(2)   
where $`E`$ denotes the energy in the box, and $`R`$ denotes some suitable measure of the size of the box. Naively, at least, such a bound would rescue the GSL by preventing one from lowering a box close enough to a black hole to violate it.

However, an alternative resolution of the apparent difficulty with the GSL was given in . There it was noted that there is a quantum “thermal atmosphere” surrounding a black hole, which produces a large “buoyancy force” on a box when it is slowly lowered very close to the horizon. When this buoyancy force is taken into account, the optimal place to drop such a box into a black hole no longer is at the horizon of the black hole but rather at the “floating point” of the box, which lies at a finite distance from the horizon. When the effects of the buoyancy force on energy balance are properly taken into account, it was found that the GSL always holds in this process .

The analysis of  assumed, for simplicity, that the box was “thin” in the sense that its proper height, $`b`$, is small compared with the scale of variation of the redshift factor, $`\chi `$, i.e., $`b\chi (d\chi /dl)^1`$, where $`l`$ denotes proper distance from the horizon. This analysis was then generalized to the case of “thick boxes” in , although this generalization was done in the context of a slightly different process, wherein, rather than dropping the box into the black hole, the contents of the box are allowed to “leak out” as the box is raised. Nevertheless, several years ago Bekenstein argued  that for boxes with $`b`$ at least as large as $`A^{1/2}`$ (where $`A`$ denotes the horizontal cross-sectional area of the box), the buoyancy effects of the thermal atmosphere are negligible. He then showed that the bound (2) must hold for such boxes in order that the GSL be valid, in apparent contradiction with the conclusions of the analysis of .

The purpose of this paper is to resolve this apparent contradiction. In the course of his analysis, Bekenstein  made some assumptions concerning the nature of unconstrained thermal matter and the location of the floating point of the box. Under these assumptions, it is indeed necessary for the validity of the GSL that the bound (2) hold, as Bekenstein found. However, we shall show that eq. (2) holds automatically as a consequence of the same assumptions used to show that it is necessary for the validity of the GSL. In other words, if one had matter which violated eq. (2), then Bekenstein’s assumption about the nature of unconstrained thermal matter and/or his assumption about the location of the floating point of the box could not be correct.

In the next section, we show that—whether or not eq. (2) is satisfied—the GSL holds in any process where a (possibly “thick”) box, initially containing energy $`E`$ and entropy $`S`$, is lowered toward a black hole and then dropped in. Bekenstein’s arguments are then analyzed in Section 3.

## II Validity of the GSL for “thick” boxes

It was shown in  that the bound (2) is not needed for the validity of the GSL for the case of a “thin” box. The analysis of  was generalized to “thick” boxes in the Appendix of . However, in  a slightly different process was considered (in response to criticisms of ), in which the contents of the box are allowed to slowly leak out as the box is raised. Consequently, the formulas of  are not immediately applicable to the present situation where the box is dropped into the black hole. Thus, in this section, we shall extend the analysis and arguments given in the Appendix of  to the present case.

To begin, in a given region of space outside of the black hole, unconstrained thermal matter is defined to be the state of matter that maximizes entropy at a fixed volume and energy (as measured at infinity).<sup>*</sup><sup>*</sup>*By contrast, the terminology “thermal matter” would be used to denote matter which is in thermal equilibrium but which may have additional “constraints” resulting, e.g., from the presence of box walls (which may exclude some modes of excitation of the matter) or restrictions on the species of particles that are present. It should be noted that the properties of unconstrained thermal matter may depend upon location, i.e., for unconstrained thermal matter the functional dependence of the entropy density, $`s`$, on energy density, $`e`$, may vary with position outside of the black hole. We make two assumptions about unconstrained thermal matter: (i) We assume that unconstrained thermal matter is (locally) homogeneous, so that the integrated Gibbs-Duhem relation holds 

$$e+PTs=0$$
(3)   
where $`T`$ is the temperature of the unconstrained thermal matter, and $`P`$ is its pressure. (ii) We assume that the “thermal atmosphere” of a black hole is described by unconstrained thermal matter, with locally measured temperature given by $`T=T_{\mathrm{bh}}/\chi `$, where $`T=T_{\mathrm{bh}}=\kappa /2\pi `$ is the Hawking temperature of the black hole. Both of these assumptions were also made in Bekenstein’s analysis .

Following  and , we now compute the change in generalized entropy occurring when matter in a thick box is slowly lowered toward a black hole and then dropped in. Consider a box of cross-sectional area $`A`$ and height $`b`$, containing energy density $`\rho `$ and total entropy $`S`$. As the box is lowered toward the black hole, the energy density will depend on both the proper distance, $`l`$, of the center of the box from the horizon and the proper height, $`y`$, above the center of the box. Following , we adopt the abbreviation

$$f(y)𝑑VA_{b/2}^{b/2}f(y)𝑑y.$$
(4)   
The energy of the box as measured at infinity is

$$E_{\mathrm{}}(l)=\rho (l,y)\chi (l+y)𝑑V$$
(5)   
where $`\chi `$ is the redshift factor. The weight of the box at infinity is

$$w(l)=\rho (l,y)\frac{\chi (l+y)}{l}𝑑V.$$
(6)   
The condition that no extra energy is fed into or taken out of the box as it is lowered isIf the box is filled with matter in thermal equilibrium, then the temperature in the box will follow the Tolman law $`T1/\chi `$. Using $`d\rho =Tds`$ (and, hence, $`\rho /l=Ts/l`$), we see that eq. (7) is equivalent to requiring that the entropy of the box remain constant as it is lowered.

$$0=\frac{dE_{\mathrm{}}}{dl}w=\frac{\rho (l+y)}{l}\chi (l+y)𝑑V.$$
(7)   
Thus the work done by the weight of the box on the agent lowering it is

$$W_g(l)=_{\mathrm{}}^lw(l^{})𝑑l^{}=E_i\rho (l,y)\chi (l+y)𝑑V$$
(8)   
where $`E_i`$ is the initial energy of the box.

Meanwhile, the thermal radiation exerts a buoyancy force on the box equal to

$$f_b(l)=A[(P\chi )_{lb/2}(P\chi )_{l+b/2}]$$
(9)   
where $`P`$ is the radiation pressure of the unconstrained thermal matter. The work done by the buoyancy force on the agent at infinity is then

$$W_b(l)=_{\mathrm{}}^lf_b(l^{})𝑑l^{}=P(l,y)\chi (l+y)𝑑V.$$
(10)   
If the contents of the box are dropped into the black hole from position $`l`$, the increase in black hole entropy will be

$$\mathrm{\Delta }S_{\mathrm{bh}}=\frac{1}{T_{\mathrm{bh}}}(E_iW_gW_b)=\frac{1}{T_{\mathrm{bh}}}[\rho (l,y)+P(l,y)]\chi (l+y)𝑑V.$$
(11)   
Using eq. (3) together with $`T=T_{\mathrm{bh}}/\chi `$, we obtain

$$\mathrm{\Delta }S_{\mathrm{bh}}=\frac{1}{T_{\mathrm{bh}}}[\rho (l,y)e(l,y)]\chi (l+y)𝑑V+S_{\mathrm{th}}$$
(12)   
where $`S_{\mathrm{th}}`$ is the entropy of the thermal radiation displaced by the box. Equation (12) is equivalent to eq. (20) of  and it corresponds directly to eq. (A12) of  for the process considered in that reference.

It also follows from eq. (3) together with $`T=T_{\mathrm{bh}}/\chi `$ that

$$d(P\chi )=ed\chi .$$
(13)   
Minimizing $`\mathrm{\Delta }S_{\mathrm{bh}}`$ with respect to $`l`$, and using (13), we obtain

$$[\rho (l_0,y)e(l_0,y)]\frac{\chi (l+y)}{l}=0.$$
(14)   
Thus, the entropy increase of the black hole is minimal when the contents are dropped in from the “floating point”, i.e. when the weight of the box is equal to the weight of the displaced thermal radiation. Equation (14) is identical to eq. (14) of  and eq. (A13) of .

To proceed further, we first consider an idealized situation in which we imagine that the box is filled with unconstrained thermal matter.It should be emphasized that we are not assuming here that it is physically realistic to actually have a box filled with unconstrained thermal matter. The consideration of such a box is done here purely for mathematical purposes, to compare the generalized entropy change that would occur in this idealized process to that which occurs in the actual process (see below). Let $`T_0`$ denote the temperature of the matter in the box at the start of the process. Then, when lowered to position $`l`$, the matter in the box will have a temperature distribution $`T=T_{\mathrm{}}(l)/\chi `$, where $`T_{\mathrm{}}(l)`$ is determined by $`T_0`$ and eq. (7). According to our analysis above, the optimal place (in the sense of minimizing $`\mathrm{\Delta }S_{\mathrm{bh}}`$) to drop such a box is at its “floating point”, which is easily seen to be the position, $`l_0`$, at which $`T_{\mathrm{}}(l_0)`$ = $`T_{\mathrm{bh}}`$, since at this position we have $`\rho =e`$. By eq. (12), when the box is dropped into the black hole from its floating point, $`l=l_0`$, we have

$$\mathrm{\Delta }S_{\mathrm{bh}}=S_{\mathrm{th}}=S$$
(15)   
and there is no change in the generalized entropy. Consequently, if the box is dropped from any position, $`l`$, we have

$$\mathrm{\Delta }S^{}0$$
(16)   
and the GSL holds in this idealized process.

Now consider the actual process in which the box is filled with some (arbitrary) distribution of matter, is lowered to an arbitrary position $`l`$ (not necessarily the floating point of the box) and then is dropped into the black hole. Let us compare the change in generalized entropy in this process with the change in generalized entropy that would occur in the above idealized process where we choose $`T_0`$ so that at position $`l`$ the energies as measured at infinity, $`E_{\mathrm{}}`$, of the two boxes agree. Then, it follows immediately from eqs. (5) and (12) that the change in black hole entropy, $`\mathrm{\Delta }S_{\mathrm{bh}}`$, is the same for both processes. However, since at position $`l`$ the boxes have the same energy at infinity, the entropy, $`S`$, contained in the box in the actual process cannot be larger than the entropy contained in the box in the idealized process. Consequently, the change in generalized entropy in the actual process cannot be smaller than the change in generalized entropy in the idealized process, which was shown above to be non-negative. This proves that the GSL cannot be violated in the actual process.

## III Bekenstein’s analysis

In  Bekenstein purports to show that for thick boxes whose “height”, $`b`$, is not small compared with $`A^{1/2}`$ (where, as above, $`A`$ denotes the horizontal cross-sectional area of the box), the contents of the box must satisfy the entropy bound (2) if the GSL is to hold. We now briefly review Bekenstein’s assumptions and conclusions, and then reconcile them with the results of the previous section.

In his analysis, Bekenstein assumes that unconfined thermal matter can be modelled as an $`N`$-species mixture of noninteracting massless particles, so that

$$P=\frac{e}{3}=\frac{N\pi ^2T^4}{45}$$
(17)   
Bekenstein then makes the approximation<sup>§</sup><sup>§</sup>§Equation (18) is a good approximation sufficiently near the black hole. Bekenstein’s justification for this approximation is somewhat circular in nature, but eq. (18) is not the source of any difficulties in Bekenstein’s analysis. that

$$\chi (l)\kappa l$$
(18)   
where $`\kappa `$ denotes the surface gravity of the black hole. Using this approximation, Bekenstein finds that the exact floating point condition (14) reduces to

$$\frac{(l_0^2b^2/4)^3}{3l_0^2b^4+b^6/4}=\frac{NA}{720\pi ^2E(l_0)b^3}$$
(19)   
where $`E(l_0)=\rho 𝑑V`$ is the locally-measured energy of the box at the floating point.

Bekenstein then argues that at the floating point, the quantity

$$\eta ^3\frac{NA}{720\pi ^2E(l_0)b^3}$$
(20)   
must satify $`\eta 1`$. In making this argument, Bekenstein makes two additional assumptions: (1) that $`b1/E`$ and (2) that $`N`$ is of order unity. (It is easy to see that these assumptions together with $`Ab^2`$ imply $`\eta 1`$.) However, these assumptions are not innocuous ones since, in conjunction with eq. (17) they would imply that entropy bound (2) is already satisfied by a wide margin for a box in Minkowski spacetime. Namely, since the box’s contents must have lower entropy than unconstrained thermal matter at the same energy and volume, we have for the model of unconstrained thermal matter assumed by Bekenstein,

$$\frac{S}{E}\left(\frac{S}{E}\right)_{\mathrm{th}}\frac{1}{T}$$
(21)   
Hence, given that $`b1/E`$, $`N1`$, and $`Ab^2`$, we have

$$EAbT^4\frac{1}{b},$$
(22)   
from which it follows that

$$\frac{S}{E}(Ab^2)^{1/4}b=2R.$$
(23)   
Nevertheless, Bekenstein’s arguments correctly show that—irrespective of the above two additional assumptions—if the floating point of the box is very close to the horizon (in which case, by eqs. (19) and (20), we have $`\eta 1`$), then buoyancy effects are negligible, and the bound (2) is needed for the validity of the GSL. However, we now show that if unconstrained thermal matter is described by (17), then any box that floats very close to the horizon must automatically satisfy (2). Once again, we use the fact that unconstrained thermal matter maximizes entropy at a fixed volume and energy at infinity,

$$S(E_{\mathrm{}},l_0)S_{\mathrm{th}}(E_{\mathrm{}},l_0).$$
(24)   
The unconstrained thermal matter is described by eq. (17) with $`T=T_{\mathrm{}}(l_0)/\chi `$, where $`T_{\mathrm{}}(l_0)`$ is determined by imposing $`e\chi 𝑑V=E_{\mathrm{}}`$. Evaluating this integral using the approximation (18), we find

$$[T_{\mathrm{}}(l_0)]^4=\frac{15(l_0^2b^2/4)^2\kappa ^3E_{\mathrm{}}}{N\pi ^2Abl_0}$$
(25)   
The entropy density of the thermal radiation is $`s=4e/3T`$, so

$$S_{\mathrm{th}}(E_{\mathrm{}})=\frac{4E_{\mathrm{}}}{3T_{\mathrm{}}(l_0)}.$$
(26)   
It is convenient to express $`E_{\mathrm{}}`$ in terms of the position, $`l_{\mathrm{cm}}`$, of the center of mass of the box. Again applying the $`\chi l`$ approximation, we obtain the simple relation

$$l_{\mathrm{cm}}\frac{(l+y)\rho 𝑑V}{E(l_0)}=\frac{E_{\mathrm{}}}{\kappa E(l_0)}.$$
(27)   
By eqs. (24), (26) and (27), we have

$$\frac{S}{E}\frac{8\pi }{3}\left(\frac{T_{\mathrm{bh}}}{T_{\mathrm{}}(l_0)}\right)l_{\mathrm{cm}},$$
(28)   
and from eq. (25) and the definition, eq. (20), of $`\eta `$, we find

$$\left(\frac{T_{\mathrm{bh}}}{T_{\mathrm{}}(l_0)}\right)^4=\frac{3\eta ^3b^4l_0}{(l_0^2b^2/4)^2l_{\mathrm{cm}}}.$$
(29)   
Now, assuming $`\eta 1`$, the floating point condition (19) yields $`l_0^2(1/4+\eta )b^2`$. Consequently,

$$\frac{T_{\mathrm{bh}}}{T_{\mathrm{}}(l_0)}\left(3\eta \frac{l_0}{l_{\mathrm{cm}}}\right)^{1/4},$$
(30)   
and, finally, to leading order in $`\eta `$,

$$\frac{S}{E}\frac{8\pi }{3}(3\eta l_{\mathrm{cm}}^3l_0)^{1/4}\frac{8\pi }{3}b(3\eta )^{1/4}b=2R.$$
(31)   
Thus, we see that if the box floats very near the horizon, it follows that the entropy bound (2) is already satisfied by a wide margin. Consequently, the bound (2) does not have to be postulated as an additional requirement.

This research was supported in part by NSF grant PHY 95-14726 and ONR grant N00014-96-1-0127 to the University of Chicago.