Because we're talking about maximum penalties, I just wanted to reflect for a bit on what we as lawmakers ought to be considering as we turn our minds to maximum sentences, and the Sentencing Advisory Council of Victoria makes some useful observations. In a paper published in 2020, they talk about the fact that maximum penalties should place really some clear, legally defined upper limits on the courts' sentencing power and that they should be reasonable and proportionate. But as reasoned lawmakers, we also need to turn our minds to what I would call the legal principle of parsimony, which is a principle that states the maximum penalty should be set at the lowest level that achieves its intended purpose. So again, here, the intended purpose is deterrence.