JAN LOGIE: —to prove to a Pākehā social worker in a system that's made pre-determinations that she is going to be safe. And to try and pretend that it's inappropriate to say that when all of the data tells us—ha, ha!—the Waitangi Tribunal has ruled, our children's commission has come to conclusive conclusions that the system has inbuilt structural racism; I'm not even going to deal with a pretence that that is not real. We need to get rid of this policy, and today is not a day too soon.