Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson): I, firstly, want to clarify the position of which the Minister of Justice challenged the National Party, the issue of principle in Part 2 of this bill around remand prisoners. National's position is very, very simple and clear, and it's both principled and practical. And that is that a person should not lose their right to vote while they are a remand prisoner and not convicted by a court of law. The argument that the Minister the Hon Andrew Little has made in the chair that somehow there's some inconsistency—actually, that is an absolute principled position. We are a party that believes a person is innocent until proven guilty, and that it is entirely appropriate to treat a remand prisoner who a court of law has not found guilty differently to the prisoner who has been convicted by a court of law. As we heard in evidence to the Justice Committee, the average number of convictions for a person sentenced to prison in New Zealand is 24 convictions.