So we are not taking out huge swathes of productive land. In fact, I got my forestry start dealing with a farmer in the Tukituki who won the Farmer of the Year Award. What he did is he won a whole lot of fertiliser, and that's why he fertilised his whole farm—it made not much of a difference. So what he did is he took out every part of his farm that didn't carry at least 3.5 stock units per hectare. And you know what? He didn't lose one unit of stock whatsoever. He planted that marginal land in trees. And what he did—he was a guy called John Aitken, a very, very innovative farmer, and he was one of the leaders of the farm forestry movement. So what he did is he took out the uneconomic land for farming and he put it into forestry, therefore, diversifying his farm and his sources of income. 