Hon TODD McCLAY: That was the day when health and safety was: if they didn't come back then there was one less in the Scout group, that's correct. However, the point of this was I said to Ken, "Well why do people not have access now? There's a great concern in the community. So he said, "Why don't we go up and wander round and we'll talk about it?" I arrived at his house, and he decided he wanted to go in my freshly painted blue National Party truck—we were in Government at the time—and we drove south towards Taupō, we went round past Rerewhakaaitu, and then drove up towards the mountain. It stopped at a very large gate that was double locked, and I said to Ken, "If you open the gate, we can drive all the way to the top." He said, "Well I will"—but the keys are in the glovebox in his car back at his house in Rotorua. So we got out and we walked all the way, which is probably an hour to an hour and a half walk to get to the landing area where there were young men and a few women camping, and I learnt a lot that day. 