Timber products produced here, as we've well canvassed, are worth $6.3 billion. I mean, it's a wonderful industry in New Zealand, the fourth-largest exporter. I would maintain, hand on heart, it's probably an integral part of New Zealand—I think everyone would agree with that—and it's probably not permeated with a lot of illegal timber product. However, the import industry is where the concern really lies, and I think we contextualised the problem here. This is $152 billion—I think the Minister quoted before. These are figures out of Interpol, this global trade of illegal timber products. The Green member the Hon Eugenie Sage pointed out the effects to the indigenous people all around the world, and she's absolutely right in that regard. As I say, again, I was in Brazil and this is a profound problem in that part of the world, and it's damnably hard for us as importers to have a fair and honest understanding of the certification process and what it means when we are importing these products. 