Then there was the Enlightenment and the scientific revolution—the idea that people actually could think for themselves and challenge. He said that we should trust the experts because you wouldn't second-guess your plumber. Well, actually, if you've never been ripped off by a cowboy tradie, I guess that's probably a reasonable way to be. Well, I think it's important for this particular debate that, actually, we have a balance between trusting and respecting expertise and merit, but also being prepared to question and actually challenge authority, because I think we've got that balance wrong through a lot of our COVID response. 