Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: I am aware of the mayor's claims and I have engaged with him and the council on a number of occasions to work through their concerns. While I accept that Auckland has had some 10 years of experience of a level of aggregation under the Watercare council-controlled organisation model, it is not a perfect option for the rest of the country. Auckland Council is near the limits of its debt capacity, and one of the significant constraints for Watercare is a tied balance sheet to Auckland Council. To prove a point, in the next five years, Auckland ratepayers, under the status quo, are looking at a twofold increase in rates, while also deferring large numbers of three waters infrastructure projects. This would be unnecessary under our proposed reforms. The Auckland Council's desire for proportionate control over entity A would mean that the balance sheet separation from the council and the consequent ability to raise debt to fund its infrastructure deficit would not be achieved without significant long-term commitment to underwrite the entity by the Crown. The whole premise of the reform approach is to move asset debt and liabilities to these multi-regional entities who can leverage from greater scale to fund long-term asset management and infrastructure investment.