Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): Oh, to live in David Seymour's fantasy land! The member wants to talk about counterfactuals. Well, here's a pretty obvious one. The member clearly doesn't care about people losing their jobs. The member clearly doesn't care about small business people, who woke up and said—you know, I'll give the member an example. I met a gentleman when I was in Featherston during the 2020 election campaign. He was driving a filthy ute—it wasn't Kieran McAnulty, but it was another member of the Wairarapa community—and this person turned around, did a U-turn, came and parked beside me, got out of his truck, walked over, shook my hand and said, "Your Government's policy saved my business". He told me this story about the fact that he was driving to work to tell the four or five people who worked with him that they didn't have jobs anymore because people were cancelling their forward orders as they were worried about what COVID would mean. He said, "That wage subsidy meant that I could go in and say to those people, 'I'm not sure what's going to happen, but you've all got a job' ", and 10 weeks—12 weeks—later, when that wage subsidy expired, that person was able to carry their business on. That person was able to employ some more people. So if Mr Seymour wants to know what the counterfactual is, the counterfactual is people who live in the real world, Mr Seymour, people who actually have to employ other people, people who have jobs now, who may not have had them had we not done this.