I've been involved in cases, whether it be family members or those in the community, where I've seen the shame. I have to say to the member Jan Logie and the incidences that she's given, you know, just to make it more accessible and more liberal does not deal with the issue. The issue is the connectedness and a sense of belonging to whānau and to family, as to the reasons why they weren't able to. So the member can talk about that and give these instances, but making it more liberal will not deal with the issue. It may help in some instances, right? But here's the truth of it: wouldn't we all want them to be reconnected back to the love and the care and the sense of belonging in whānau and family? That's what we're talking about. 