Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well, I guess it's the premise of the question that I've got issue with. Those debt objectives for me as the Minister of Finance are part of the long-term work that we need to do to ensure the wellbeing of New Zealanders. I agree they are not an end in themselves. They are part of what we are trying to do in terms of improving New Zealanders' wellbeing. The speech that the member quoted from in her primary question I think is an important one by the Treasury Secretary. It echoes my comments prior to the Budget that it is important that we have a conversation about debt, about appropriate debt levels, about what they mean for our investment in long-term goods for New Zealand, such as infrastructure and wellbeing. I welcome the conversation about that.