Hon JAMES SHAW: As I've just said, at some length, many of the policies that we're introducing in order to reduce emissions actually have the effect of reducing household costs. For example, the home insulation scheme, which has seen tens of thousands of houses insulated over the course of the last decade or so, has reduced household energy bills dramatically and made those homes much more energy efficient. If you wanted to achieve the same result by driving up the electricity cost just through the emissions trading scheme, that would mean that actually many people just switch off the heating and freeze. I would ask that member whether he wants New Zealanders to freeze.