Dr DUNCAN WEBB: Maureen Pugh, you say it's absolute rubbish. You go down to the Family Court and see what goes on there. You see the backlog that they're still trying to clear. You see the families that have been split up and are still trying to pick up the pieces, parents still trying to get access to their children because of the absolute carnage that Judith Collins wreaked on our justice system when she was in charge.