The third reason that people said they supported it was that this subsequent child policy, as it has existed, has a really negative effect on the mental health and wellbeing of parents and caregivers, as well as their kids. It's that sense of stress and being under surveillance and losing that dignity that we heard about from the last speaker. It's not the having been supported by your society to look after your kids and the acknowledgment of the importance of your role of caregiver that is stigmatising and takes dignity from people; it's the surveillance and the sense of the message that that policy conveyed that you have no ability to make choices for yourself that are good, that the State has to force parents to make those decisions for themselves. That does not reflect reality. That is just purely stigmatising.