Hon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change): I'll be repeating something I said at the first part of the committee stage, but just to correct you, what I'm saying is, actually, that if you allow the market to operate as it is supposed to do and the price does rise, then it is counterintuitive that, yes, there will be some more afforestation, but also it becomes more economic for polluting firms to change the technology than it does to do offset forestry, right? So let's, hypothetically, say that the carbon price rose to $50, which is the complete upper limit that we're putting in, and that if it went up to there, what that is saying is that it would cost you $50 to plant forests but only $40 to change your technology if you're an industrial process heat user, right? So it's $10 cheaper per tonne to swap out your technology than it is to plant forests. So then, of course, what happens is people change their technology, demand for units then falls, and so the price comes down a bit. So you get a sort of equilibrium. That is what I meant by that.