But they really don't see why all of our houses can't be built to universal design standards. I had a fantastic meeting with Lifemark recently up in Auckland, and they were talking to me about how it used to be perceived that building to universal design was more expensive than a standard build. But actually what they're seeing now is that the cost of lifts has come down so significantly that, actually, really they are not at all convinced that the price of building is any more inaccessible—to be building to universal design. They do, however, recognise that there is a significant knowledge gap right across our building industry, including within Kāinga Ora, to understand what is universal design. They've seen plans for buildings that have beautiful wide doorways and flat floors, and even a lift, but there are steps into the house that make it inaccessible and kind of make all of that good work pointless. 