DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): People have tried to avoid hearing me speak before, but I've never seen a Minister in the chair try and urge another member to take a call to avoid it. This is a very serious debate, and it does reflect on the time that we have gone through over the last year, which is normally the subject of this debate, but the performance of the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) is going to become even more important as New Zealand battles with the recovery from the COVID-19 crisis.