Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I believe that sanctions, particularly cutting people's benefits, should be used as a last resort. It has overwhelming impacts on families when it is used in a punitive way too easily without actually traversing the circumstances of the families. I have seen evidence to suggest in the UK and in the United States that a punitive approach can actually be counterproductive to supporting people into work. That's why we're not taking the approach that the other side of the House endorses.