RACHEL BOYACK: Absolutely, and these men were very aspirational for their families. In particular, they always were lobbying for increased sick leave in their workplace. And one of the arguments they would use around that was actually about caring for dependent children—and these were sawmills, male-dominated industries, and the men, when we were doing our collective bargaining, would always put a claim up to significantly increase their sick leave because they would tell me that when their children were sick, often their wives—if they were married to a woman—would have used up their sick leave, their five days of sick leave, to look after sick children, and that it would then fall to them. So actually, I want to counter the implied argument from the other side that somehow it's people of a certain age or women who are the ones that actually take care of their children when they're sick. And I know that the Minister in the Chamber tonight is actually one of those fathers that has modelled that and so understands exactly what I'm talking about.