For far too long, many whānau have not felt that they could walk through the council doors and have the conversation they really wanted to have. In many cases, it's our kaumātua whose name is on the succession to a particular bit of whenua and whatever they can pay they will pay. They'll corral the whānau to try and pay a little bit off, because it's better paying a little bit off and remaining connected to your whenua that way than, I guess, having this burden of debt. 