Hon JAMES SHAW (Minister of Climate Change): Look, I'm not sure where the member's going with this. So New Zealand is unusual in having forestry units in the emissions trading scheme, and a number of other schemes don't have that at all. If you didn't have foresters being, essentially, able to say, "We're going to draw down carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere", that would make the emissions budgets even harder to reach. And you could argue that, therefore, an emissions unit would be even higher as a result, because you wouldn't have that ability to net off at any point in the system.