There is powerful evidence out of that working group document to suggest that long periods spent on a benefit and hence a low income is associated with a range of adverse social and economic outcomes, especially for young adults and children. These adverse outcomes may be transmitted across generations and become entrenched in communities. The most effective thing that Governments can do is to break that cycle and give people back their independence. While they are dependent on the State for their income, for their livelihood, they have lost their independence. Empowering people to be independent is a far better investment than reducing some of these benefit support systems that we're talking about tonight. 