 And his charge in that book is that atheists do not live out the premise of atheism honestly. Because he says when atheists are trying to basically argue for morality in life and things like that, he says you're not living out the premise. You're not being honest about the premise. And so his whole book, which became a bestseller, and before he was an author, though, he was a journalist. And he interviewed Sam. And so they actually become friends.