 And so we realized that, so what is it? Is it the physical, is it the intersection of the chakra with the physical? Can you do this without the chakra at all, without the pineal gland at all? In other words, if the mind can have these experiences, like if you have an out-of-body experience or a near-death experience, you can perceive the universe without the physical there. In fact, you're observing usually your own body as you're looking outside