 a book by an IBM president and said, it's revolutionized my approach to the church. I now know how to build a great church using the techniques that were used to build IBM. And I was so shocked by that. It was the first time I was sitting on his porch, rocking back and forth, listening to him say this. And the conversation dissipated fast because I really had no response. I didn't want to be ungracious to him, get thrown off his porch. So I just went away thinking, well,