 but it was at some of these private sector conferences where companies meet states and kind of sell their wares. We need to query this and ask, who really sets the agenda here? And if it's the private sector, well, we have to ask why they are the ones who are the most powerful actor in this conversation. Let me ask you lastly, Petra, about maybe the main point of what you're trying to get at in this book, which is that there are people kind of in the middle of this, human beings, right? Talk a little bit about how they're affected.