 But when you start mainstreaming the alternative to that at the expense of what makes civilization, then it collapses. And far greater people than myself and you and all of us were observers of what was happening at Rome. So if you read the Satyricon, a really brilliant novel by Petronius or Catullus' poems or Suetonius' Lives of the Twelve Caesars or Tacitus', they all have one common denominator.