 to that oftentimes when you ask them about it, but you can definitely see it. But most of the violence that smugglers talked about when I would ask those kinds of questions, they didn't necessarily want to admit that they were doing stuff to migrants, even if I knew they were. They wanted to often portray themselves as the best of that group and to say, well, some smugglers do really terrible things, but not me. I'm a good person in this whole kind of process.